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This Too Shall Pass

What does it do to my black grandchildren when they watch television and see mobs of threatening white people supporting a South Carolina congressman who shouted “You lie” at the biracial president of the United States in a Joint Session of Congress viewed all over the world? How does it affect them to see guns brought to speeches given by the president? How puzzling it must be for them to hear some white people say they want their country back – from whom? I know what to tell them. Hold steady and keep the faith is what I tell my grandchildren and I bring perspective to the current white hysteria. Things were much worse 50 years ago for black people in America. Fifty years ago a far larger percentage of white Americans expressed anti-black sentiments in far more direct and violent ways.

Fifty years ago there were only two black congressmen, no black senators, no black governors, and few blacks in local governments around the country. The highest black office-holder in a local government in the country was Hurland Jack, the Borough President of Manhattan, in New York City. It is, I tell them, a measure of African-American social progress that there is a black president to whom racist sentiments can be directed. It is also a measure of white Southern incivility that such an outburst can happen as it did.

I live in South Carolina where many whites are crazy with the reality that a black man is president of the United States. This is, for them, a situation that must be confronted by all means necessary. This translates into insulting behavior by South Carolina’s politicians. One of the state's two Republican senators want to “break” the president by making his health care plan his Waterloo. Rusty DePass, a South Carolina political small potato, said that an escaped zoo gorilla was one of Michelle Obama’s ancestors. The state’s embattled governor had to be made to take the president’s stimulus money. Then along came Joe Wilson’s vulgarity. White politicians in South Carolina can behave this way with impunity because its majority population is largely racist. Fortunately only two of my grandchildren live here and will grow up here in this place of lagging social indicators.

My grandchildren are 17, 13, 10, 8, 5, and 4. Each of my three sons has a boy and a girl. I try to turn this contemporary moment in history into a teachable moment for them. I tell the two oldest, who are boys and cousins, about an evening 50 years ago when I was a paratrooper in the 82nd Airborne in Ft. Bragg, North Carolina and got into all white drive-in movie, unnoticed, with white soldiers from my platoon with whom I had been out drinking. Halfway through the movie, we had to use the rest room. After using the rest room we decided to ring the bell for the concession attendant to make a purchase. When the man came from the back and saw black me he turned red and shouted, “What are you doing in here?”

“He’s with me,” my friend said, “and he’s a United States soldier – he’s entitled to be in here.”

“Look, I don’t make the rules, it’s the law of the land,” the attendant said. “You better get that nigger out of here and don’t let anyone see you leaving or he’s dead.”

My friend and I left insulted and demoralized, but I survived.

Fifty years ago was a time when the South waged its last bloody battles against full citizenship for black Americans. Dogs, water hoses, clubs, lynchings, bombs, and bullets were the weapons the white obstructionist wielded in those days. Many black people and some white people of good will died during the Southern white rage of the civil rights period. That could never happen today, I tell my grand children, there are far many more whites of good will in the South than there were in those days. I do warn my older two grandsons though, that it may have been easier for my generation to defeat raw racism then it will be for the current generation to defeat irrationality. It is going to be difficult to placate people who are so irrational that they argue against what is in their own interest. It’s like I used to tell people who I didn’t care for: “If you see me in a fight with a bear, you help the bear.” People who are shouting "I want my country back” are telling Obama, “If you see me in a fight with my health insurance company, you help the bear.”

About Horace Mungin

  • roger nowosielski

    I’ll make it, but I feel as deficient, defective and stupid like . . . Brand new language, brand new terminology, totally different way of thinking from the way I’m used to. I’m quite facile at processing and dealing with abstract ideas – that’s what my training has been all about – but when it comes to “engineering,” I’m a total incompetent. But I shall overcome.

  • roger nowosielski

    Exactly. Like “no longer being respectable” is supposed to work as though it countermanded reality.

    Strange thinking indeed.

  • zingzing

    baronius: “Horace’s racism originates from his decency.”

    that reminds me of the time that my pseudo-girlfriend caught me sleeping with another woman and, during the ensuing argument, i yelled out “DON’T JUDGE ME FOR THE THINGS I DO!”

    to this day, i have no fucking clue what that was supposed to mean.

  • roger nowosielski

    Yet you said it.

    So are we dealing here with a strange case of Baronius’s blurt?

  • Akil


    First of all I enjoyed your article.

    I usually listen to public radio whenever I pick my oldest son up from daycare. While no banter about the economy, or public options, or Kanye did what, will break his focus on kicking the back of my chair; whenever the broadcaster mentions “The President…” like clockwork my two year old fills in the blank with “OOOBAMAA!”

    My earliest political memories where of President Reagan. Both of my boys will grow up in an America where having a black man as president is just the way things have always been.

    The Congressman’s outbursts create an opportunity to reflect on what the office of president should mean. Many Americans thought is was just the funniest thing that an Iraqi journalist hurled his shoes at one of OUR president.

    I fought in Iraq and lost friends in that country because President Bush empowered ideologues to make decisions about the lives of other people children, while ignoring the advice of those in his administration who’d actually served. But he was still OUR President.

    I respect and admire President Obama for a host of reasons. But none of those reasons are why I see little distinction between Congressman Wilson’s outburst and the shoe hurling incident. Our condemnations of the congressman ring hollow if the presidency is to be respected only when we share warm personal feelings for the person filling the office.

  • El Bicho

    In Baronius’ world, gumdrops grow on trees, it’s summer vacation every day, and white people inform others if they are experiencing racism.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Doug -

    You know, I’m getting real tired of your pretensions. The sheer hatred foisted in Obama’s direction is far beyond anything any other American president has faced – period. You’ll claim otherwise…but your postings evince your lack of objectivity.

    For the life of me, I don’t remember seeing any accusations of Bush being Muslim, or Bush “pallin’ around” with terrorists, or Bush being accused of not being born in America…

    …and I must wonder what the oh-so-patriotic Right Wing would be saying if:

    - The media noted that former President Obama attended an investment meeting at the Washington, D.C. Ritz-Carlton hotel on September 10, 2001 and in particular a meeting with Shafiq bin Laden, representing joint interests of the Saudi Binladin Group and Carlyle; or

    - The Obama family had had strong relations with the Saudi royal family since before WWI; or

    - Obama’s grandfather had supported the Nazi party; or

    - British intelligence leaked a document that said, “Obama wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy.”; or

    - Obama wrote an executive signing statement that allowed him to declare a state of emergency and essentially run the country by fiat; or

    - Obama joked, “Things would be a lot easier in a dictatorship, so long as I’m the dictator.”

    If Obama did any one of those things, we’d be looking at civil disruption by the right wing on a national scale…and I think you know that.

    BUT since all these were just the oh-so-All-American Bush family, well, THAT’s okay in the eyes of conservative America!

  • zingzing

    glenn, that was masterful. but somehow, i get this feeling that the right wing around here can deny it…

    where’s dave been these last few days?

  • roger nowosielski

    “If Obama did any one of those things, we’d be looking at civil disruption by the right wing on a national scale…”

    But we ARE looking at it. And Mr. Hunter, one of the most sensible of the bunch, is a perfect example.

  • Doug Hunter

    It’s the same crap with Bush and Obama. One was friends with the Sauds, the other Bill Ayers and Reverend Wright. One was ‘AWOL’ the other wasn’t born in the US. Both look to expand the powers of the federal government and spend like drunken sailors. Bush had to deal with 9/11, Katrina, and economic downcycles bookending his administration. Obama only has the recession so far, he should consider himself lucky.

    The only real difference is your crush on Obama. You get all thin skinned and sentimental because it’s your little buddy in office. Tough shit, grow a pair and get over it. You want to spread hate on Bush but exempt you messiah. There are plenty that want to spread it the other way and they’re just as ignorant and obstinate as those on your side. Get used to it.

  • zingzing

    if it’s the same crap (not that it is), where was the right wing then? the only real difference was your crush on bush. and don’t give me any crap about “we were there,” when you clearly were not.

  • Clavos

    Actually they are mirror images:

    The left wing beat up on the right winger Bush, and now the right wing is beating up on the left winger Obama.

    It’s a grand old amerikan tradition…

  • Doug Hunter

    “But we ARE looking at it. And Mr. Hunter, one of the most sensible of the bunch, is a perfect example.”

    What have I ever disrupted except a liberal lovefest? At least I restrict my rantings to responses in the comment section. Glenn has the Realists of the world on his side writing much hasher invective several pages in length every other day during the Bush administration (and continuing on against Obama for not going far enough now of course). I realize he can’t understand that because he felt his side was ‘speaking truth to power!’ while everyone who disagrees now is a delusional idiot. Strangely, those tea party members and healthcare protesters are under the same spell only in reverse.

    I know you’re not a delusional idiot. We differ because we have different (although not as much as you would think) value systems. I take a bit more liberty and self determination and you favor more interconnected compassion. From that point we can have a rational discussion of issues and likely come to a reasonable compromise.

    To Glenn’s of the world who won’t take that first step and admit that the other side isn’t wrong, just different, I have nothing nice to say. I will stoop to that level. When he starts treating the ideas of freedom and liberty as concepts, instead of a disease that the cause must be found and eradicated, then we can have a fine adult discussion.

  • Doug Hunter

    “where was the right wing then?”

    Doing the same crap you guys are now. Calling for civility and decorum. Asking people to honor the office and look at the issues from a different perspective. Same shit in reverse.

  • Cobra


    I thoroughly enjoyed your piece. You have a flair for writing that speaks to me on a personal level. My mother is 83 years old. I visit her very often now. She grew up in Virginia, and lived almost half of her life under Jim Crow, but she has a loving spirit, and a congeniality that I recognize in your work.

    Like you, she would invite people over for Sunday dinner, who fifty years ago, would’ve had her drinking from a separate fountain.

    So what’s going on here?

    I think what happens in America today is that since we have over 300 Million people, you can narrow-cast and niche market yourself rich through “extremist enterprising.”

    If you can find 1/10th of 1% of the population to agree with whatever extreme position you have, you can make a decent living. Up that figure a few clicks, and you can become a media cult of personality.

    That’s the theory of the long tail. If you can make millions on the lunatic fringe, why bother even trying to be reasonable?


  • Glenn Contrarian

    Doug -

    “To Glenn’s of the world who won’t take that first step and admit that the other side isn’t wrong, just different, I have nothing nice to say.

    Have I personally insulted you? No. Have you personally insulted me? Remember our ‘moral superiority’ discussion? Yes, you have insulted me…and I have yet to return your personal insult with one of my own.

    So don’t give me this claptrap about you ‘stooping down’ to my level.

    FYI, why don’t you peruse ALL of my writings and see if you can find (on this or any other forum, political or religious) ANY SINGLE INSTANCE of me personally insulting someone?

    No, you won’t – because you choose to ASSUME the worst of me.

    Doug, I have shown you provable facts and provable numbers…and you (like most conservatives here on BC) are flatly refusing to answer with provable facts and provable numbers.

    One more thing – your idea that I treat “freedom and liberty…as a disease”, when have I EVER, even ONCE made a statement ANYWHERE CLOSE to that?

    I haven’t – but you, who wants to believe the worst of someone who’s willing and able to stand up to you, can’t believe that I might actually be a patriot.

    You have falsely accused me. Either have the determination to prove your accusation using the words that I have posted…or have the courage to apologize for making a false accusation.

    You can’t do one…and I strongly suspect you won’t allow yourself to do the other. That’s why you insult me and falsely accuse me. You see, insults are a common resort for the weak or insecure. I am neither, and so I do not need to insult you.

    Tell me, Doug – how much time have you spent in the military? This “freedom and liberty is a disease” 20-year military man would really like to know.

    And one more thing – I used to be a Republican and still agree with at least two of their platform issues…but on the majority of the issues, their ideas (or refusal to accept ideas) are not good for America. THAT, sir, is why I post as I do. It is NOT the party…but it IS the issues that party supports or opposes.

    But again – since you’re obviously able to judge me as someone who thinks freedom and liberty is a disease…how long did you serve? Hm?

  • zingzing

    “Doing the same crap you guys are now. Calling for civility and decorum. Asking people to honor the office and look at the issues from a different perspective. Same shit in reverse.”

    of course, we didn’t bring guns and pray for his death, but you know, whatever. do you think that makes your side’s actions any better? look at glen’s list of grievances. if obama did any of that, what would you say?

    the left made a stink because he was dragging us into a bullshit war through lies, hoisting the patriot act on us, trying to make second class citizens of millions of people, writing executive statements that made him a dictator… come on. what the fuck is that?

    what has obama done that even fucking compares? and yet you want to shoot his ass and bury him in the ground. or at least some of you do. and the rest of you just wouldn’t go that far, but are perfectly willing to let someone else do it.

  • Clavos


  • Glenn Contrarian

    Clavos -

    Mirrors indeed…and when viewed in the mirror the wrong way, the molehill of Obama’s faults might indeed compare to a mountain comprised of an illegal war started on false pretenses, a Justice Department politicized for partisan gain, Katrina, and torture committed in the name of America.

    Mirrors, indeed.

  • zingzing

    clavos: “Mirrors…”

    life in a funhouse.

  • roger nowosielski

    An allusion to Lost in the Funhouse by
    John Barth?

    Try The End of the Road. You’ll love it.

  • hanjie song
  • hanjie song


    I do agree the polarization of American politic has occurred, and the gap is arguably still widening. However, Bush is the biggest catalyst for the issue.

    The public’s outrage for Bush spawn out their disdains for his policies, not because he’s a white man from Texas.

    In contrast, most critics of the health care can not provide rational objections to it, they merely “want their America back.”

    Except “their America” was never as good as they would like to believe it to be.

  • Clavos

    Well, if Jimmy Carter says it’s racism, it must be…

  • Doug Hunter


    I said you view people who disagree with you as wrong and delusional. You said the following.

    “Mirrors indeed…and when viewed in the mirror the wrong way, the molehill of Obama’s faults might indeed compare to a mountain.”

    Hmmm, wrong and delusional. Looks like my analysis was right on as usual. You are determined to make this about personal faults instead of rational discussion of issues. In your view, anyone who disagrees with you must be racist or delusional or uneducated, etc. You also continue to have the mental block where your own bias minimizes your own sides faults “molehill” and maximize those of your opponent “mountains”.

    I know you’re smarter than that. I don’t know why you continue the route of personal assault, maybe you’re harboring a little hate in your own heart. Who knows.

    (As to your question, 6 years AF EOD)

  • Doug Hunter

    “The public’s outrage for Bush spawn out their disdains for his policies, not because he’s a white man from Texas.

    In contrast, most critics of the health care can not provide rational objections” to it, they merely “want their America back.”

    You’ve been standing in an echo chamber with Glenn too long. No need to make subtle accusations of racism. Just look at what you wrote. You state that Bush criticism was about policies and you compare that with protesters of healthcare. Is healthcare not an Obama policy?

    There is plenty of information as to why people oppose Obama’s policies. People wanting to wrestle the country back is not in reference to any race, it’s in reference to the federal government itself. Just this year alone it spent $6000 more than it took in for every man woman and child in the country. We’re selling our kids out to the Chinese so we can stay a bit more comfortable now.

    The federal government is expanding far beyond the scope intended in the constitution and politics is driven, regardless of how good their intentions are, by authoritarians who only want to expand that power and influence even further.

  • Ruvy


    You begin this article by saying: What I tell my black grandchildren about the cad who shouted a lie at the president.

    Please consider the following by Gary Bauer. I do not have a URL to this, as I have little reason to worry about what Christian pastors say, but this, which is part of a larger article that came to me by e-mail, was worth noting.

    Joe Was Right!

    Today, the House of Representatives will vote to formally discipline Rep. Joe Wilson of South Carolina for yelling “You lie!” at President Obama. I’d like to offer some advice.

    First to Rep. Wilson: Like an Old Testament prophet, you spoke truth to power, and the powerful resent it. The liberal majority today will attempt to make you pay a price for your boldness. It’s just one more sad example of the Left’s intolerance for dissent. Let it go. A formal House censure seemed only to enhance Barney Frank’s career – he’s now a committee chairman! And Charlie Rangel won’t step down or apologize despite demands for his resignation from the New York Times and the Washington Post.

    To House Conservatives: Use the debate today to expose the shortcomings of the healthcare reform bill. The fact is, Joe Wilson was right.

    As we have reported, the Congressional Research Service acknowledges that the current healthcare reform bill has no enforcement mechanism whatsoever to prevent illegal aliens from taking advantage of taxpayer-subsidized benefits. Moreover, the Senate Democrats and the White House now acknowledge that fact, and are theoretically trying to fix it. Not surprisingly, that has the president taking flak from at least one House liberal, who is an outspoken advocate of amnesty. His criticism, however, only confirms their radical agenda; and the American people should be grateful to Rep. Wilson for exposing it.

    The Left Needs Lessons In Civility

    All week Big Media has been covering Joe Wilson’s outburst. Many of the political commentators have said it was disrespectful of Wilson because Obama is technically his “boss.” I have news for these pundits, the real bosses of our elected representatives are the people in their districts. But you won’t hear Nancy Pelosi or the liberal media condemn the inappropriate outbursts liberal members of Congress made at their town halls over the recess. Here are two examples from politicians who the Left considers leaders in their radical movement.

    I mentioned Barney Frank’s town hall tirade several weeks ago. In case you missed it, Frank responded to a constituent who was arguing against ObamaCare by saying, “Trying to have a conversation with you would be like arguing with a dining room table.” The clip became an instant YouTube classic. It’s hard to imagine a constituent being treated with any more disrespect, but California’s Pete Stark did just that last weekend.

    Stark is one of the most liberal members of Congress. His views are out of touch with mainstream America. At a town hall this weekend, a constituent politely remarked on the government’s inefficiency when it comes to the healthcare system. He ended his remarks by telling Stark not to “pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining.” The audience immediately cheered, at which point Stark said, “Well, I wouldn’t dignify you by peeing on your leg. It wouldn’t be worth wasting the urine.”

    I understand that you view of lot of these white southerners through the eyes of a man who has suffered vicious discrimination at their hands, and therefore you take what they say with some large grains of salt.

    Nobody has to explain to me why you could view a white southern congressman calling a black president a liar as nothing more than the typical behavior of a racist who can’t get the racism out of his system, and thinks he’s yelling at the kitchen help.

    But what if he’s right – and the black man at the podium is wrong?

    The essence of your article – that blacks suffered far more indignities at the hands of whites in the United States, so that a white legislator screaming “liar” at a black man addressing a chamber of legislators should be regarded with the sense of balance it deserves – cannot be argued with. Any Jew who can recall the days when no department store would hire Jews (as was the case in Detroit and Minneapolis in the mid 1950′s) could easily understand what you are talking about and empathise.

    But perhaps that initial example at the beginning of your article might not be the right hook upon which to hang that argument.

    Think about it.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Clavos -

    Jimmy Carter grew up Down South…and he understands what goes through the minds of Southern whites (as do I).

    No offense, but you didn’t grow up there. You don’t know the culture as we do, or their appreciation of history. For example, the city of Vicksburg (I lived there, too) didn’t celebrate Independence Day for eighty years after the Civil War…and when I was there in the seventies, a lot of people still didn’t celebrate it. It’s not for nothing that Ole Miss’ song starts out,

    “Oh, I wish I was in the land of cotton, old times there are not forgotten! Look away, look away, look away, Dixieland!”

    That’s why confederate flags were still so popular – it’s a reminder of when they were their own country…and when blacks weren’t so ‘uppity’. My visit to MS last month was the first time I’ve ever been in MS – ever! – that I didn’t hear my family use the n-word. Hispanics such as yourself are usually not looked upon kindly in the Delta, either…because (to abuse an old saying) in the eyes of many of the older whites there, the blacks are the devil they know, but you’re the devil they don’t know.

    This is the real Deep South I’m referring to, not Florida. And FYI, in the opinions of most Southerners, Florida is not part of the Deep South (and I’m only half joking when I say we only begrudge the SEC’s decision to include UF and FSU). Florida’s more of a Great Northern Retirement Home.

    Yes, this post probably offends you – but it is the truth.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Doug -

    AF EOD? For now, this retired Navy man will take you at your word. Go watch “The Hurt Locker”. You probably won’t like it because of the obvious mistakes that even I could see…but it’s more about psychology than about accuracy of EOD policy and procedures.

    I don’t know why you continue the route of personal assault, maybe you’re harboring a little hate in your own heart. Who knows.

    I’m still waiting for you to point out even ONE insult I’ve posted against anyone in ANY forum where I’ve EVER posted (other than certain politicians or celebrities). Just one, Doug. If you can’t point out any insults I’ve made, then what does that say about your continuing accusations against me?

    I’m really getting tired of your repeated accusations…that you don’t back up.

    So far you’ve claimed that I’m delusional, that I believe freedom and liberty are a disease…and you’re accusing me of making personal assaults.

    PROVE YOUR ACCUSATIONS! BACK ‘EM UP, GUY…because if people see a grown man refusing to prove his accusations, then they might start questioning his other claims.

  • Clavos

    Actually, Glenn, we Floridians don’t consider ourselves part of the USA, much less the backwards south.

  • Clavos

    And Glenn, as usual, you make a lot of unwarranted assumptions. I lived in Georgia for twenty years (the 70s and 80s), during which time I worked on civic projects with Jimmy and Rosalynn Carter when he was governor. I know both of them well.

  • Clavos

    And during those years I traveled all over GA, TN, MS, KY, AL, and AR on business, in both rural and urban areas. I have numerous friends in all of them, all of whom are southerners born and bred.

    I’m quite familiar with the south: its history, traditions and people.

  • Clavos

    Oh, and one other thing: take a look at my picture on my writer’s page. Do I look “Hispanic” to you? Another of your erroneous assumptions; millions of Mexicans are blond-haired and blue eyed and are, just like you Gringos, of European ancestry.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Clavos -

    I didn’t say you had not lived and worked in the Deep South. I said you did not grow up in the Deep South. There’s a difference, sir…and while you may feel you know the history, traditions, and people, I assure you that there is much that you do not and cannot know. As with many of my fellow Southern whites, my roots there go back to the early 1800′s, and includes family who fought and died for the Confederacy. My direct descendants are buried in the same backwoods-church cemetery back to before the Civil War.

    No, Clavos, you do NOT know the Southern psyche…but perhaps a little vignette will help. My mother – an amateur genealogist – once told my grandmother that we had a black ancestor who was a spy for the Union during the siege of Vicksburg. My grandmother became very angry and did not speak for three days…about something that occurred 130 years prior.

    It’s just like when I finally move to the Philippines – I know much of their culture and I’ve traveled in several areas and I’ve known some influential people there…

    …but I am not so naive as to assume that if I lived there right now, that even twenty years from now I would understand the details of what drives the Filipino psyche.

  • Clavos

    Bullshit, Glenn.

    That’s the same fallacy some African Americans use to discredit whites’ arguments, and it’s bullshit in that milieu as well.

  • zingzing

    clavos, you are pretty wishy-washy on your heritage. whatever suits the argument at the time. (of course, i refer to the “wetback” conversation in particular, gringo.)

  • Clavos

    One advantage to being multicultural, zing.

    And don’t call me gringo — I don’t want it getting out.

  • zingzing

    don’t worry, clavos…

  • roger nowosielski

    Well, it’s too late for that.

  • Doug Hunter

    “Just one, Doug. If you can’t point out any insults I’ve made, then what does that say about your continuing accusations against me?”

    I don’t have to look any farther up that post #79. It’s an insult to make generalizations about groups. If you don’t consider being implicated as a racist as insulting then I see where you would disagree. You’ve also tried to link opposing thought to lack of education, etc. My point is that you focus a fair percentage of your effort in painting those who disagree with you with that type of broad brush rather than arguing the merits of your position.

  • Doug Hunter

    I’ll check out The Hurt Locker. Most of the movie portrayals of that career field are a total joke. If I remember correctly The General’s Daughter did have a robot and a realistic, if brief, portrayal.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Doug -

    It’s an insult to make generalizations about groups.

    That, sir, is YOUR opinion. And I have made NO personal insults against anyone other than politicians and celebrities.

    But YOU said I was continuing to make personal assaults.


  • Glenn Contrarian

    Clavos -

    I don’t care if you think it’s BS – you didn’t grow up there, and you do not know them like I do. Case closed.

  • roger nowosielski

    OK, good night, you two.

    I’ve stayed longer than I intended, but it was worth it.

    We should continue.

  • Clavos

    Clavos -

    I don’t care if you think it’s BS – you didn’t grow up there, and you do not know them like I do. Case closed.

    You do realize, don’t you Glenn, that you just boxed yourself into invalidating every assertion you ever make henceforth about anything which you haven’t experienced personally, anything you haven’t “grown up with?”

    It’s a fallacious and specious argument, Glenn. Were it real and true, humanity would have achieved virtually no progress since prehistory; we would all still be clubbing wooly mammoths for dinner.

  • Clavos

    My point is that you focus a fair percentage of your effort in painting those who disagree with you with that type of broad brush rather than arguing the merits of your position.

    Quoted for Truth.

  • hanjie song


    All my undergrads in econ 1002 can tell you why directly injecting capital into the demand side is the most effective policy to revitalize the national economy.

    But I also don’t expect all of America to understand how this will work. Essentially, they are bicker at a subject they know little about. Why is that they feel strongly against something they are uncertain about.

    Excuse me if I’m being frank, but my interpretation is simply that certain sectors of American public is upset and afraid that America is being reformed and regulated at the hands of a black man.

  • Dave Nalle

    Injecting cash into the “demand side” of the economy at the same time that you take that same cash out in loans, currency devaluation and future taxes cannot provide a long term solution to economic problems.


  • Glenn Contrarian

    Of COURSE racism is no longer a problem with Republicans and conservatives.

    It should be noted, though, that the most listened-to man in all of radio, whom Republican congressmen offend at their peril, just said yesterday that buses need to be segregated – buses for whites, and buses for blacks.

    He said…”In Obama’s America the white kids now get beat up. …I think the guy’s wrong. I think not only it was racism, it was justifiable racism. I mean, that’s the lesson we’re being taught here today. Kid shouldn’t have been on the bus anyway. We need segregated buses — it was invading space and stuff. This is Obama’s America.”

    A full transcript is here.

    Again, this is the most listened-to man on radio

    …and it does NOT matter how much Dave and Clavos and Doug and Arch-con disavow his idiocy, he IS the single most influential man in Conservative America.

    Yeah, you can see racism’s not a problem among the conservatives…if you’re in a coma.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dave -

    I’m not sure about the benefits of demand-side economics…but I can say for certainty that supply-side economics has been an utter disaster.

    If I had my way, we would pay higher taxes – and those taxes would go to provide all the ‘commons’: firefighers, police, justice, prisons, education (through college), health care, industry safety regulation, road maintenance…

    …all those things that better enable people to WORK, to keep them healthier and more educated for the benefit of American business.

    In other words, government should give the people the tools (the OPPORTUNITY) they need to work…but NEVER do the work for them.

    What government should NOT be a part of is any manufacturing and selling that are in any way part of real business. For instance, these prison-based industries are essentially slave labor and hurt competition. Government should not be a party to the manufacturing and selling of health care essentials (drugs, equipment, etc.). The government should be manufacturing and selling NOTHING, but should be focused on keeping the population health and educated so we have a better and more capable work force…and on helping our companies sell (and especially export) our products.

    Is this really so bad? It works for other modern industrialized democracies – why can’t it work here?