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Zionism: Past and Present

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What a bed of nettles! Firstly, one should make clear their intentions in dealing with such a sensitive issue; I happen to largely disagree with Israeli foreign policy and would like to discuss some of these disagreements in writing with you, dear reader. Yet in disagreeing with Israeli foreign policy one must not be thought of as anti-Semitic, as is often the case when conversing with those who support Israel’s violent militarism.

Israel’s most effective critics are Jews themselves! Let’s look at some of the (best known) names that come to mind; Avi Shlaim (The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World), Ilan Pappè (The Israel/ Palestine Question), Norman Finkelstein (Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History) and Ahron Bregman (A History of Israel). Are these authors anti-Semitic? Of course they are not. What these authors are doing is critically assessing the history of Palestine and concluding that Israel (as far as the national narrative goes) ain’t all that it claims to be.

Is this a unique occurrence; where an academic with an Israeli passport decides to criticise his own nation’s foreign and domestic policies? Of course not! I myself am a British citizen, and fully exercise my right to criticise British actions and activities both at home and abroad. It is perfectly normal and acceptable for someone living in a democratic society to be able to criticise their government’s actions, this is simply democracy at work; the power of the people to raise objections over how their political representatives represent them on the world stage should not be taken away from them. Others have and do try to take away this inalienable right by labelling such people as the authors mentioned in the previous paragraph anti-Semites. This simply does not make sense.

To be anti-Semitic, one must have an irrational hatred of Jewish people. Shlaim does not hate Jews; neither does Pappè or Finkelstein et al. There is a big difference between a Jew and an Israeli, the same goes for Palestinian and Arab. Alan Dershowitz (The Case for Israel) confuses those who express their concern over Israeli foreign and domestic policies for anti-Semites, which is a damn shame because, had he not attempted such an illogical argument during the introduction to his book, he might have retained some credibility when putting forward his interpretations and beliefs about Israel in later chapters. The fact that Dershowitz has been accused of plagiarism and for trading on his academic status in order to lend his argument a greater degree of credibility is a matter to consider elsewhere.

So what is Zionism to me and why do I hate it so much? Avi Shlaim best describes my thoughts and feelings when he writes; ‘Israel’s illegal occupation of the Palestinian territories since 1967 is the basic problem… occupation distorted the natural course of mainstream Zionism. Zionism was, above all, the national liberation movement of the Jewish people but it also upheld universal values like freedom, equality, socialism, and peace. Post-1967 Zionism, however, both in its secular and in its religious varieties, developed a territorial obsession. It is not about values; it is about land. The obsession is to keep the whole of the Land of Israel in the hands of the Jewish people. This transformed the Zionist movement from a legitimate national liberation movement for the Jews into a colonial power and an oppressor of the Palestinians.’

The First Zionist Congress that took place in Basel, Switzerland (1897) declared that ‘the aim of Zionism is to create for the Jewish people a home in Palestine secured by public law.’ Who could disagree with this statement? Not me. What I do vehemently disagree with is Israel’s violation of the democratic right of the Arab population to national self determination in Palestine. Post 1967 Zionism is an ugly ideology that legitimizes tyranny. ‘Part of the definition of being a Palestinian’ comments Eyad Sarraj in the Palestine-Israel Journal of Politics, Economics and Culture, ‘is being a refugee, living in exile, having your home destroyed, having to leave your land.’ There are those Zionists who argue that Palestinians are incapable of state-building and democracy as they do not represent a united front; inherently tribal in nature. Yet the tribal structure, argues Sarraj, exists today as a necessity rather than as a tradition; ‘It’s a kind of moral duty that people come together… the tribal structure gives you a sense of belonging and a sense of security. In the absence of a functioning state and the rule of law, there is no security except the tribe.’

To argue that Palestinians are incapable of state-building due to their tribal nature would be like arguing that Mr X always suffers from headaches as you continually whack him over the head with a hammer. Unfortunately, Israel has been whacking the Palestinians for over forty years now. Speaking about the former Prime Minister, Shlaim opines that ‘Ariel Sharon [personified] this xenophobic, exclusive, aggressive, and expansionist brand of Zionism… one of the greatest accolades in Judaism is to be a rodef shalom, a seeker of peace. Sharon is not that by any stretch of the imagination.’ Today, if one were to identify himself as someone who supports Zionism, one would also be making his peace with Mr Sharon. This is why I self-define as an anti-Zionist. Who can excuse this tyrant of his war crimes? Certainly not me. Sharon led (as an Israeli military officer) an attack on the West Bank village of Qibya in 1953, in which 69 civilians were murdered, and masterminded Israel’s brutal 1982 invasion of Lebanon. That invasion led to the deaths of tens of thousands of Lebanese and Palestinian civilians, massive displacement of the civilian population, and culminated in the infamous massacre of civilians in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Beirut. The number of victims of this massacre, Palestinians and Lebanese alike, has never been officially documented. Israeli military intelligence estimated that 700 to 800 persons were slaughtered, but others put the count of the dead much higher, up to 3,000 people.

Contemporary zionists often accuse those who criticize Israel’s actions as anti-Semitic for focusing exclusively on the actions of Israel and no other state’s past crimes against humanity. I would argue that comparing Israeli war crimes to, say, the crimes committed by the British Empire against a multitude of its colonial subjects, does neither issue any good. It ought to be enough for you to know, dear reader, that the author is sadly not blissfully ignorant of his own nation’s past exploits and will tackle them in another article, on another day.

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About Graham McKnight

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Gordon,

    Because you are yet a young man who may still have the ability to see without too much difficulty where a paradigm of his is erroneous, I’ll go easy on you.

    First of all, I posted this comment at Elvira Black’s article on her problems getting a passport. Go to Youtube to see the video mentioned below.

    Elvira,

    I’d ask you to look carefully at the turn the comments have taken here and think about which other group gets slammed with “mildly offensive” terms.

    A “much bigger dog” dragged this video in his jaws and dropped it in one of my articles, growling angrily at the Jew who did almost all the talking in it.

    The title of the video was “Zionist insulting British Activist and Jesus”. A slightly different version of the same video was called “Hebron Settler confronts British Journalists.”

    The bottom line here is that in Europe and on university campuses across your country, the word “Zionist” has replaced “kike”, “sheeny” and “Christ-killer” as the “slur of choice.” In essence, the name of the video that MBD bitched and whined about was “Kike insulting British Activist etc.”

    This means that whenever you see the word “zionist” on an anti-Israel or anti-Jewish website, the word “kike” should come to your head immediately – for that is what is meant.

    One of the really nice things about living here, Elvira, is that the only place I see “kike,” “Jew-bastard,” or “Christ-killer” is on the web.

    People who like to keep their teeth do not utter these words in Israel – unless they are Jews referring to the goyim who do.

    The point of the comment here is that while you yourself may not manifest Jew-hatred within your heart, it is common within the UK to use the term “zionist” as a substitute for “kike” or “sheeny.” This is no reflection on you personally. That is just the way it is. And you will get reactions based on that fact, just as Liam Bailey has elsewhere. Condemn Zionism and that is what will happen to you. Get used to it.

    Now, to the meat of your article. Zionism is the movement that had as its motivation, the creation of a country of Jews is their ancient homeland – Israel. The creation of the State in 1948 was the fruition of the efforts of the Zionist movement, and the victory in 1967 was the total victory over its Arab enemies. Your complaint is the transformation of Zionism after this victory.

    You point out, correctly that “Zionism was, above all, the national liberation movement of the Jewish people but it also upheld universal values like freedom, equality, socialism, and peace.” You are talking about a secular movement that does not credit G-d with its success, but slaps itself on the back – “I did it!”

    The victory in 1967 was the crowning achievement of that movement. Look at my article “In the Shadow of the Six Day War – Part I” and see that

    From a country with a central section 10 miles wide, Israel had expanded to cover all the land from the Mediterranean to the Jordan, a broad and good land; it had conquered the Heights of Golan, so that never again would Syrian gunners bombard kibbutzim and towns in the north and force the inhabitants to sleep in underground bunkers; it had liberated the city of Jerusalem from foreign rule and re-united it under the rule of the only people who pray for the city’s welfare daily, the Jewish people; it had conquered Gaza, an infectious nest of murderous terrorists; and as a security buffer, it had conquered the entire Sinai peninsula, ending forever the danger of a blockade of Israeli shipping in the south, as well as that of a massive land invasion that would overrun Ashkelon, Beersheva, and Tel Aviv. In addition to all this, most of the inhabitants of the territory that had been under Jordanian rule for 19 years waited at three bridges at the Jordan River, seeking to flee Israeli rule.

    Note the point in bold in this paragraph. Hold it in your mind. Now let’s continue with my analysis:

    Rabbi Shlomo Goren, the Chief Rabbi of the IDF, wanted to build a synagogue on the Temple Mount. The opportunity to have Judea and Samaria nearly empty of Arabs stood before the leaders of Israel. Had a synagogue been built on the Temple Mount it would have cemented our claim to it, mosques and domes notwithstanding. Had the Arabs fleeing Israeli rule been allowed to leave, the settlement of Judea and Samaria would have been a far easier and less controversial task. It is likely that the territory would have been annexed to the State and living in Ma’aleh Levona (which where I live), for example, would be looked upon as normal, instead of theft of someone else’s land by self righteous, finger-wagging foreigners, and ignorant Israelis who think they know better than G-d Himself.

    But this is not what happened.

    You (and Liam Bailey) are the finger wagging foreigner. The Israeli “academics” you cite are the ignorant Israelis who think they know better than G-d Himself what to do.

    But let’s move on:

    Dayan blew up the bridges at the Jordan River, thus preventing the Arabs living in Judea and Samaria from leaving. So they left the sites of the blown up bridges, returning to their homes. The Israelis attempted a “light-handed” occupation, but there is no such thing as a light-handed occupation of a potentially hostile population being fed hate propaganda daily.

    Because Dayan did not allow the Arabs at the Jordan River bridges to leave, he created the problem of wanting to “annex the land but not the people”. He handed to the Arabs a legitimacy they would not have had otherwise in demanding the land for themselves and undermined any Jewish claim to our land. He built the stool upon which the PLO stood, the stool upon which Hamas stands. His act was an act of rank cowardice that has cost thousands of Jewish lives in the last forty years, not to mention thousands more Arab lives.

    Dayan, the secular Jew – just like those pathetic Israeli academics you admire – had no concept at all of what the religion of Israel demands of us. He thought he knew better than G-d Himself what to do. And Zionism, the movement of secular Judaism, could do nought but transform itself into a territorial holding corporation that was to become odious in the eyes of the world.

    Zionism is finished. It accomplished its big task – creating a refuge for the People of Israel and allowing for a relatively painless expulsion of the previous inhabitants. Now it is dying. But, seizing an illusion from someone is as dangerous as seizing a cub from a tigress. And many Jews continue to believe in an illusion.

    So, you are beating a dead horse. Are you Sherlock Holmes that you wish to determine how many injuries may be produced in a corpse?

    Gordon, there are three more installments of my series on the shadow the Six Day War casts. please be patient, while the BC editors mull them over. Many questions that you have will be answered there.

  • Little Bo peep

    Are you people nuts? You little jew-haters are sooo cute!

  • Graham McKnight

    Ruvy,

    I mean you no offence, but I do not believe in the concept of nonsensical beings such as God. As such, God does not serve as an adequate explanation to both myself and others when we examine the course of a nation’s history.

    It may interest you to know that having lived in the UK all my life, the term ‘Zionist’ has never been used in my presence to signify a hatred of Jewish people, the word ‘Jew’ itself (when spoken in a particular tone) is the favoured racial slur word. The reason for this is simple, I could ask my girlfriend (for example) to define for me what the word ‘Zionist’ means, and she will not know. This is because the term ‘Zionist’ is used mostly in academic circles over here, and is thought of as a certain political ideology rather than as a term for an ethnic group. Put it this way Ruvy, if the term ‘Zionist’ really was a racial slur word in my country, I would not use it in my articles.

    As for me being a ‘finger wagging foreigner’, why should this serve as an obstacle? I am either poorly informed or highly informed, but not a ‘finger wagging foreigner’. To deny someone the oppertunity to critically engage with events that take place in a different part of the world would be counter-productive in many respects.

    On a side note; Ruvy, you would get along well with my step-mother. She fears this God as much as you do and shares your nationalist sentiments. The only differences between you both is that she is Christian and British, whereas you are Jewish and Israeli. I often ask myself why these differences must divide humanity in the ways that they do. They are imagined concepts that kill.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Stan,

    Unless I’m wrong, the fellow who threatened Graham is a resident of the UK. He looks forward to blocking Graham’s tenure (go to Liam Bailey’s article on Gaza before Chris removes the comment). So it is English constitutional law that he has to deal with, not the provisions of the constitution of 1788 of the United States.

    And Graham, by threatening something precious to this person, has threatened him. Again, go to Liam’s article on Gaza to see what has gotten this fellow in such a huff. It is two very short statements ensconced in two separate comments.

    “I find it entirely reasonable to assert that ‘an Israeli state should not exist at the expense of an indigenous Palestinian one’.”

    and

    “Hatred may very well be a strong word, but I feel that I am able to justify myself adequately as a hater of nations that oppress a people’s right to self-determination. I have made it perfectly clear in the past that this hatred is extended to any and all nations that unjustifiably oppress, in this case it just so happens that we are discussing Israel.”

    Graham’s lame comment that one of his tutors is a Jew will not help him here.

  • STM

    Ruve, then he could find himself in even deeper shit than just a banning on BC. The Poms are red hot on personal abuse.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Stan,

    I was going to comment more extensively, but I smell a nasty legal fight brewing here. Let it stand that several different jurisdictions with several different standards are involved, and were a legal fight to break out, one of the parties involved could be a corporate entity of one sort or another operating under the laws of the State of Ohio and the United States.

    With that, sir, I shall retrieve my “glove” and retire from this particular branch of the discussion. Now do be a good Englishman and have a pinch of snuff… (Aye, mate, ’twas offered to me by the Geordie who lives in the village)

    When my other two articles on the Shadow of the Six Day War are brought to light here, I invite you all to come over and browse. Ahead of their release, I return to the assertion I made to Graham in comment #1:

    Zionism is a dead horse. The only profit one gains from beating a dead horse is to determine how many bruises one can inflict on a corpse.

  • STM

    I think Zionism occurred simply as a nationalist movement fed by the holocaust and western intransigence around the time we discussed earlier – when we disagreed on Britain’s role, and we’ll possibly have to stay disagreed on that. Now, I feel, what’s done is done, and it’s a matter of survival both for Israel and the Palestinians.

    It would be nice if both parties could get to a table somewhere, bury the hatchet (preferably not in each other’s brains), and work things out.

    I won’t hold my breath on that score, though. But it would be nice. BTW, I think Graham would be best to just cop it on the chin. I guess he could take it further, as there have been cases where being a US website doesn’t offer protections overseas, but he’d be a silly bugger if he did.

    Stay cool Graham, we’ve all copped a razzing somewhere along the line for things we’ve written here. It just goes with the turf, methinks …

  • Graham McKnight

    Ruvy you say that ‘Zionism is a dead horse. The only profit one gains from beating a dead horse is to determine how many bruises one can inflict on a corpse.’

    If this is true, why are there people on these forums willing to break laws in order to inflict pain and suffering upon me?

    The actions of these people (who don’t reveal their true identities as I do) only stand to reinforce my beliefs.

    Let me repeat for those who don’t bother reading articles and head straight into ‘attack mode’ that: ‘The First Zionist Congress that took place in Basel, Switzerland (1897) declared that ‘the aim of Zionism is to create for the Jewish people a home in Palestine secured by public law.’ Who could disagree with this statement? Not me. What I do vehemently disagree with is Israel’s violation of the democratic right of the Arab population to national self determination in Palestine. Post 1967 Zionism is an ugly ideology that legitimizes tyranny.’

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Stan,

    We will remain disagreed on the role Britain played in the development of the State. And gentlemen can agree to disagree. Whatever my disagreements with you, pay close attention to the words of your late father. He sounds to have been a highly intelligent man.

    But going beyond that, Zionism was a seed planted in Judaism and in Jews long before the first works propounding it appeared in Britain in the 17th or 18th Century, works authored by Christians, by the way.

    These are Biblical concepts, and are reflected in the blessings in the Amidá, a standing prayer at least 1,700 years old recited three times daily by observant Jews.

    “Sound the great Shofar for our freedom, work a miracle to gather in our exiles, and gather us from the four corners of the earth. Blessed are You HASHEM, Who gathers in the dispersed of His people, Israel.”

    “Restore our judges (the Sanhedrin) as in the beginning, and our counsellors as at first, and rule as a King over us, You Alone, in kindness and compassion…”

    “And to Jerusalem, Your city, in compassion return, and dwell within her as You have spoken; and build her soon in our own days for eternity, and may the Chair of David be quickly repaired within her…”

    “Desire, HASHEM, Your people Israel and their prayer, cause to return the service of fire offerings in Your House…”

    “May our eyes behold Your return to Zion in compassion. Blessed are You, HASHEM, Who restores His Presence to Zion”

    This, from the Grace After Meals, recited after eating EVERY meal with bread:

    Psalm 126 in its entirety (on Sabbaths an Festivals), or Psalm 137 in its entirety on weekdays.

    “Have mercy, HASHEM, on Israel, Your people; on Jerusalem; Your city, on Zion, the resting place of Your Glory; on the monarchy of the house of David, your anointed; and on the great Holy House upon which Your Name is called…”

    “The Compassionate One! May He break the yoke of oppression on our necks and lead us in dignity to our Land…”

    Are you getting the idea Stan? Graham? This is the source of Zionism. It was this that inspired the agnostic socialist David Green when he made his speeches in the synagogues in Poland a century ago urging his co-religionists to return with him home. So, how great is the treason of Israelis who now reject the work of David Green, the man who was to become the first prime minister of this nation? What fools are Jews who in their arrogance from their roosts in exile, and this includes at least one of our own number here on Blogcritics, when they reject the homeland that their ancestors prayed for and died for?

    Zionism is dead not because of the Arabs, who are merely the hammer in the hand of our real enemies, the ruling elites of Europe and America. Zionism is dead because it refused to cement our claim to the Temple Mount – where the House of Splendor of G-d WILL be located. Zionism is dead because in the hour of victory, we did not allow the fleeing Arabs to leave, so that we might settle the land that G-d gave us.

    So, in the not too distant future, the State will fall – and another Jewish entity, the Kingdom of David, shall arise.

  • Graham McKnight

    Ruvy!

    You ask ‘What fools are Jews who in their arrogance from their roosts in exile, and this includes at least one of our own number here on Blogcritics, when they reject the homeland that their ancestors prayed for and died for?’

    Even the most assertive critics of zionism (such as myself) cannot deny that it was once a great ideology. You know that I say as much in my article. We (the critics) do not deny the diaspora from returning, what we deny is Israel’s stomping on the heads of the natives, especially when taking into consideration the events of 1967 and beyond.

    Aside from that fact, I wish to suggest that you (and people like you) will not meet me (and people like me) on the same level. We simply cannot if you continue to reference and credit the Tanakh. Doing this effectively ignores the frustrations of secular types.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    “Ruvy, you say that ‘Zionism is a dead horse. The only profit one gains from beating a dead horse is to determine how many bruises one can inflict on a corpse.’

    If this is true, why are there people on these forums willing to break laws in order to inflict pain and suffering upon me?”

    Gordon,

    My essays on the shadow of the Six Day War were not written with you in mind, and you have raised a legitimate question that does indeed deserve an answer.

    In my first comment, I wrote,

    “You point out, correctly that Zionism was, above all, the national liberation movement of the Jewish people but it also upheld universal values like freedom, equality, socialism, and peace.’ You are talking about a secular movement that does not credit G-d with its success, but slaps itself on the back – ‘I did it!'”

    For a century or more, Zionism has been the “religion” of secular Jews. It doesn’t require wrapping leather straps around your arm each morning, you can enjoy ham, bacon and shrimp and still be a good Zionist, you do not have to abstain from driving to the countryside on a sunny Saturday morning to enjoy the fresh air. You can smoke pot, sleep with anyone you wish, and still be a good Zionist.

    How do I know such things? Because, except for the pot smoking and eating ham (which I detest), the above description is me thirty years ago!! I was a proud member of the youth wing of the Israeli political party AHdút Avodá, headed by the late Yig’ál Allón (the author of the Allon Plan).

    The objective fact of the matter is that Zionism, as a movement, is collapsing, as is its creation, the State of Israel. But, as I wrote you in comment #1, “seizing an illusion from someone is as dangerous as seizing a cub from a tigress. And many Jews continue to believe in an illusion.”

    Trust me. They have a harder time accepting what I write than you do. It means that there IS a G-d, and that they WILL be held to account for their actions, and that the prophecies in the Tana”kh may very well come true without sufficient repentance (as appears to be the case).

    But when THEY argue with me, and tell me that I’m reading them out of the faith, or some such nonsense, I ask them, “what the fuck are you doing whining about Israel if you don’t want to accept the reason you are here (or that you support Israel)? Without the Torah, this is just a damned real estate dispute! We could live anywhere! Why live here? Why not Long Island, where at least we can go to New York and enjoy Broadway plays? Hell, why not Australia?

    That usually shuts the discussion down. Because before the kibbutzim in the Galilee, there was Hatzor and Megiddo. Long before the Cinématique in Jerusalem, there was the Temple on the Temple Mount. Long before cars and buses sped along Highway 60 in Judea and Samaria, there was the Road of the Patriarchs carrying camels, mules, and foot traffic from Hebron going north, passing west of Jerusalem (on what is now known as the Hebron Road) and continuing north to Sh’khem. And, just for your own entertainment, look in the Book of Ezekiel and learn the root of the name of the city, Tel Aviv. Anyone who really understands the Bible and who understands what kind of a place the city of Tel Aviv is will get a good laugh – even if he is not a Jew.

    Religious Jews have an even harder time – because I’m rubbing the Bible they say they believe in in their faces.

    So there you are, Gordon. And just so you fully comprehend, here religion is politics and politics is religion. That’s just the way it is. And for a century, Zionism has been a religion.

  • Graham McKnight

    Ruvy,

    Thankyou! I understand what you trying to describe to me now.

  • Zedd

    Zionism is a cult. It has all the markings of a cult organization. But because Jews have managed to get immunity from ANY criticism by misapplying the tag of anti-semitism, this extremely dangerous cult persist without being adequately shunned.

    This cloak from constructive criticism is a disabling mechanism. Much like a spoiled brat, who developed into an unproductive adult because he lacks the tools to cope with reality, Zionists are coddled into a dysfunctional state. Like the useless adult who leans on his parents because he lacks the tools to survive, they weigh on the entire Israeli society, still being coddled and never being justifyably disciplined.

    Like most extremist groups they somehow espouse the unspoken views of a lot of people in society. However in this case they are not chided. They are allowed to forge forward with their endless temper tantrum, destroying nations and contributing to the death of thousands around the world.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Zedd,

    Don’t waste bandwidth talking about things you obviously are ignorant about. You are an intelligent woman and you are embarrassing yourself peddling your mis-perceptions of Zionism and of the society I live in, and of the Jewish people for that matter… Whether you are indeed a racist is a question I’ll not consider at the moment.

    Zionism has been the motive force of Israeli society. Zionists built the Histadrut (Federation of Hebrew Labor in the Land of Israel), the Jewish Agency, the Jewish National Fund, the Egged Bus Cooperative, Bank haPoalim (which provided capital funding in an era when nobody would invest in any enterprise here), Solel Boneh, which built everything from the ma’abarot that held new immigrants in the 1950’s to the apartment buildings in Armon haNetziv in the 1970’s. Zionists developed the Zim Line, which brought hundreds of thousands of people to these shores, as well as El Al, which is the safest airline on the face of the earth.

    Zionists founded the Hebrew University, both its campus at Mount Scopus and later at Giv’at Ram, Hadassah Hospital, Technion in Haifa, and a host of newspapers, from Ha’aretz, Davar (now out of circulation), Ma’ariv, and Yediot AHronot, as well as the Jerusalem Post. Zionists developed the best health care system in the Middle East, a system of childcare that is still the basis of childcare in the country, and for 50 years or more ran collective farms and villages that were the envy of the world.

    This is in addition to draining swamps, fighting British bureaucrats, Circassian thieves, Arab murderers, and building what HAD been the finest fighting force and intelligence service in the Middle East.

    Zionists took this patch of backward trash of the Ottoman Empire and turned it into the place where you can see the lights at night when you fly over the Middle East. The standard of living in 1920 was that of a trash can, and today it is similar to Italy. We have accomplished in 80 years what many nations have yet to approach.

    Zionists created Israeli society, Zedd, and the State of Israel is the achievement of the Zionist movement. That is what “Zionists coddled into a dysfunctional state like the useless adult who leans on his parents because he lacks the tools to survive,” accomplished.

    If only South Africa could pull that off, eh, Zedd?

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Graham,

    I apologize for calling you Gordon. I don’t know what came over me – could it have been a senior moment?

    I glad you are beginning to understand the points I’m making.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    I think Zedd is taking the common position among people on the Ameircan left that the time of legitimate zionism is past and that those who claim to be zionists today have a much more nefarious agenda, that they could more realistically be called Israeli ultra-nationalists who endorse the destruction of any group or nation which challenges Israel in any way.

    The belief is that those who take the name of zionism today, when the legitimate goals of zionism have all been achieved, are part of a racist, expansionistic and oppressive movement which is nothing like zionism as originally conceived.

    Dave

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Hopefully, Dave, you got my e-mail (as a Blog Critic Editor) on the other two portions of my series that are being held up. That article explains why Zionism is a dying ideology, and how it was killed off. Get them out, and you’ll see there what went wrong with Zionism.

    If you check out the first comment on part II of “In the Shadow of the Six Day War” and read the link, the article by Avner Yehuda in the Jerusalem Post, you’ll see what happens when “practical” people fuck up the fate of their country.

    Zedd owes you one for trying to pull her fat out of the fire and restating her position in slightly more intelligent fashion. It would be nice if she tried to do that herself – she is a grownup, not a useless adult who leans on her parents because she lacks the tools to survive.

  • zingzing

    as for dave’s #16…

    i would agree with lots of that, although i think the point is that the original goals of zionism have morphed into straight-up dangerous nationalism, much like that of nazi germany. before you go off, i’m just talking about nazi germany’s “germany for germans” idea, and not the “kill all the jews and desenters, make a master race, take over europe” stuff involved.

    israel has become war-like, because it has to, but they (and ruvy) seem to take some amount of pleasure in it. it’s like both sides (israel, islam) don’t even want to stop killing each other. they just like it too much. the rest of the world sees it as highly dangerous, and in an effort to “stabalize” the region, we go in and make all sorts of war as well. it’s just sickening.

    if the jews and the muslims would quit their bickering, the world would be a better place. how’s that for obvious? the very basic fact is that if everyone could step back and learn to live together, the quality of life for everyone involved would go through the roof.

    why do the jews want to “own” jerusalem? why do the muslims want the same? because they want to live there? then live there! it’s so fucking simple it drives me to distraction. i know the politics of the region are incredibly complex. i can’t understand them all. the answers, however, to the political problems are blatantly obvious.

  • Graham McKnight

    Zingzing,

    If only…

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Zing,

    When you finally read the last portion(s) of my piece on “In the Shadow of the Six Day War,” you’ll have some idea what Zionism has truly morphed into. It is definitely not nationalism. Have patience, please.

    “All in good time, my pretty, all in good time…”

  • zingzing

    i know, graham, but why the hell not?

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Graham, Zing,

    Parts III and IV of my series are finally published. I invite you to read both and feel free to comment. As I said, many of your questions about Zionism, and why it is a dying institution will be answered there.

    However, I suggest you read part III AND the comment which I added at the end. The editor saw fit to gut the article, and I had to restore the parts he gutted to make clear what the article was talking about…

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Zing, I bent over backwards to avoid the nazi comparison and there you go making it anyway. Now that the door is open, I have to add that I think that the Israelis learned a little too much from the nazis. It’s a classic case of having to become what you most hate in order to fight against it.

    Dave

  • Esteban

    The problem with Israel is Israel. The Zionists (proper) sought a Jewish homeland in Palestine, which hadn’t existed in almost 2,000 years. Palestine was multi-cultural, but was overwhelmingly Arab at the time that the Zionists were forming their ideas. The Iroquois may as well make plans to take their territory back from the United States. Except that their homeland was stolen merely hundreds of years ago. And obviously that is not going to happen.

    But the western powers partitioned off a chunk of Palestine and gave it to the Jews. What followed was a disgrace to humanity, on both sides. The short version is that creating Israel in the first place was a huge mistake. The reaction to Israel, first of all, was predictable, if unreasonable. The Arabs, whose back yard this state was being created in, made their intentions and objections known, and were ignored.

    But still a bigger problem is this: why is there an Israel at all? A Jewish homeland? What’s a Jew? What differentiates a Jew from an Arab? Nothing. Nothing but a stubborn belief in a different set of fairy tales. Pure insanity. Pre-Israeli Palestine, before the Zionists started making their moves, was a relatively peaceful place that saw Jews, Christians and Arabs all living in relatively close quarters. When the Zionists arrived and started their initial movements towards securing the Lebensraum, that’s when things turned ugly.

    Obviously both sides of this issue are maintained by nutcases. Anyone who allows themselves to be led around by their favorite fairy tales is officially insane, in my opinion.

    But the fact remains that creating Israel where it was created in the way it was created at the time it was created was a huge mistake, and was done over the vociferous and clear objections of the people who already lived in the area. That was the mistake. Everything since then is just one-upsmanship in terms of who can make that mistake even bigger.

  • Graham McKnight

    Esteban, the Western powers did not ‘give it to the Jews’, Ben Gurion declared the State of Israel in 1947 after the British mandate in Palestine ended. There is a difference.

  • Zedd

    Ruvy

    Most cults are highly productive. I don’t know what their physical efforts have to do with the fact that they see themselves to have a special position with God. Like all cults. All cultists do the same thing no more, no less, the exact same thing. I know, I know but they REALLY are special with God…… sigh. Its a cult! Must cults have some sort of a promise land Ruvy its part of the pattern, an they are willing to die for it.

    I have love for Jewish people. I have broken bread with Jews on special holidays in order to learn the culture and to partake in the beauty of these wonderful people.

    The Branch Davidians accomplished a great deal in the short time of their existence. Jim Jones built a thriving society in the jungles of Giana in a few years. Heck all of the Arab kook groups do a lot for their society. Hezbollah is fantastic and feeding and clothing the poor. What is your point?

    Your easy cop out of using the term racist whenever someone doesn’t like, trust, or agree with a Jewish group is silly. It speaks more to YOUR inability to reason and your lack of understanding of what racism is. There are many Jews who think Zionists are crazy.

    The truth is that the entire planet is wrapped up in the Israeli issue, thousands are dying, thousands more are oppressed, we live in fear because of the hard headed, self absorbed ideas of Zionists.

    What is pitiful is that the most thinking people will not address this issue because they are afraid of being called racists because as you have attempted to do, many Jews don’t want to be told NO! You are bratty Ruvy. NO! Now adjust! That is not racist its good for you and the rest of the planet….. geez!

    Its sad that Graham had to add a caveat about the racist thing before actually discussing some important issues. I would venture to say that he isn’t really done expressing his views on this issue. But is stifled by this tight rope that everyone must walk when discussing this matter.

  • http://standwithus.com/website/index.asp Israeli rights

    You people are racists. No amount of truth and reason will change your irrational hatred of Israel and Jews. Good thing that Israelis don’t have to rely on people like you for their security. Jews fight back now. Deal with it.

  • sr

    Zedd, just looked up intellectual intelude with my friend Webster. The definition is. Fuck. Excuse me I’ll be right back soon as I kill this frecking fly flying around my office. Damn little bastard. Always wondered how those animals in the bush can stand these little pricks all over their face. You would think they would buy some OFF or something. Just whacked the little prick. Zedd back to the definition. It says up your ass Zedd. Thanks for waiting and may the flies from hell swarm all over your face. JEWS RULE, ALWAYS HAVE ALWAYS WILL.

  • Zedd

    sr

    Thanks

  • Zedd

    Ruvy / Dave

    I meant what I said. Dave I am not of the left. I think independently. Read my comments sometimes.

    Dave you did however make some good points, that is not what I was saying.

    The Zionist mission is irrational and would not be tolerated if it was held by any other group on the planet. It certainly does not support modern day methods of structuring governance and nation systems.

    Ruvy you have to admit that Zionists have been enabled. THAT is not racists it is just stating the obvious.

  • Zedd

    Dave

    How do you reconcile your views about he American religious movement into politics and your views on Zionism. Just curious (really)

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Um, have I stated my opinion on zionism?

    I don’t see zionism as a religious movement, either in the beginning or today. It was always a nationalistic movement, but nationalism for those who are without a nation seems a lot nicer than nationalism for those who are trying to expand their territory and infringe the rights of others.

    As for my take on zionism, I think it’s perfectly reasonable for Jews to have a homeland. I don’t think it’s reasonable for them to abuse their neighbors any more than it would be for other countries. But at the same time I think the original geographic limits set on Israel when it was created were unreasonable given the size of its population and the ecologically exhausted conditions of the region.

    At the same time I know exactly who and what the Palestinians are, and they have no particular geographical ties to that specific area. They also deserve a decent place to live, but there just isn’t enough worthwhile land in the area that isn’t already claimed. To be painfully honest, those Palestinians who can’t pay their way out, or find a way to become Israeli citizens ought to be distributed throughout the nations of the region as part of their laboring underclass. A lot of the prosperous gulf nations need people to work in the service industries and they ought to be hiring Palestinians. That they largely prefer not to discredits a lot of their opportunistic lip-service to the cause of Palestine.

    And BTW, I think there are religious groups within judaism which are just as dangerous as some of the Christian extremists we have here in America, but they are a separate problem from zionism.

    My views of the whole situation are complex, but in a nutshell, I think Israel should exist and have reasonable boundaries, it should leave its neighbors the hell alone, and the rest of the Arab nations of the region should find a way to deal with the Palestinians other than deliberately forcing them to stay where they are just as a means of harassing Israel.

    Dave

  • Zedd

    Dave

    Thanks

    “At the same time I know exactly who and what the Palestinians are, and they have no particular geographical ties to that specific area.”

    Why do you say this.

    Also you do realise that the reason for Zionists claiming that particular land is because of their religious belief. Which makes them a religious organization. They would not have accepted Lithuania as a homeland Dave.

    I don’t understand the IDEA of a religious group having a homeland. Explain that idea and why it works within the scheme of your views on ideology.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Zedd,

    As I said, you are an intelligent woman who is embarrassing herself making assertions about things she knows nothing about. And indeed you know nothing about Jews, Israel or Zionism.

    For the roots of Zionism, read comment #9 on this article, and for a general description of its nature, read comment #11. Then read my four articles on the shadow of the Six Day War, making sure to read comment #1 in Part III of the series.

    Who knows? Maybe you’ll learn something?

    Of course, if you want to be like a half drunk Jew at a kiddush table, you’ll continue on as you have been, going blah blah blah and making no sense at all.

  • Graham McKnight

    Zedd says that: ‘Its sad that Graham had to add a caveat about the racist thing before actually discussing some important issues. I would venture to say that he isn’t really done expressing his views on this issue. But is stifled by this tight rope that everyone must walk when discussing this matter.’

    And she is correct.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Zedd,

    ‘Its sad that Graham had to add a caveat about the racist thing before actually discussing some important issues. I would venture to say that he isn’t really done expressing his views on this issue. But is stifled by this tight rope that everyone must walk when discussing this matter.’

    Pay attention! I know you have trouble with long posts so I’ll make this real short. Nowhere on this comment list have I called Graham a racist or Jew-hater. Others have. But I have not. I have told him that in attacking something precious to Jews – a paradigm of self identity that allows them a nation of their own – he’ll be attacked in turn.

    Being a resident of the UK, he has chosen a lousy time to air these particular views. His elders have taken a series of decisions that reveal their own Jew-hatred, and for speaking his mind, he’ll be attacked, and to the degree possible, victimized. He has been threatened by those who would work to deny him tenure at any university he seeks it. That is a real threat to one who may seek employment in the academic world.

    I have not told him to shut his gob. I have not called him stupid. I most certainly have not called him a racist. I have attempted to educate him about this subject.

    Note Graham’s words in comment #12.

    “Ruvy,

    Thankyou! I understand what you trying to describe to me now.”

    Graham may not agree with me. But he is at least trying to understand. Take a leaf from the young man and learn from him.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Dave writes,

    “To be painfully honest, those Palestinians who can’t pay their way out, or find a way to become Israeli citizens ought to be distributed throughout the nations of the region as part of their laboring underclass. A lot of the prosperous Gulf nations need people to work in the service industries and they ought to be hiring Palestinians. That they largely prefer not to discredits a lot of their opportunistic lip-service to the cause of Palestine.”

    He summarizes,

    “…in a nutshell, I think Israel should exist and have reasonable boundaries, it should leave its neighbors the hell alone, and the rest of the Arab nations of the region should find a way to deal with the Palestinians other than deliberately forcing them to stay where they are just as a means of harassing Israel.”

    For an American who spent his childhood among Arabs, and who generally is sympathetic to their side of things, that is a reasonable assessment to come to. But Dave is an American shooting coyotes in Texas. How about the local Arabs who have to live with the consequences of his words?

    That is what makes this article from Benador Associates so interesting.

    Let’s look at an excerpt.

    During a conference, I once suggested the following as a topic for discussion:
    How do you see the Arab region without the Arab-Israeli conflict in 2010, assuming that the issue has been solved pursuant to a formula that is acceptable to the Arab side?

    The idea was not welcomed, not because it was an unacceptable wish but because it was difficult to imagine. How can a nation that has lived for seven decades with a distinct enemy and with one [dominating] issue imagine otherwise?

    The truth is that I had begun to doubt that the region can live without coming up with a necessary enemy to divert attention away from local and regional issues. The Israeli enemy has always been a false target for regimes and organizations, and Palestinian liberation remained the project that topped all issues. In the name of Israel and Palestine, many crimes have been committed,
    civil life disrupted and terms and powers of regimes extended. In the name of this cause, the rights of citizens were seized and wars fought. Saddam invaded Kuwait (to the south) in the name of Palestine (to the east). Furthermore, Also in the name of Palestine, the local situations in both Jordan and Lebanon were abused, demonstrations in Sanaa for food were suppressed, the emergency regime in Syria remained and statements by Arab countries from Bahrain to Morocco were enriched with promises to confront the enemy. All surrounding issues were linked
    in the name of Palestine. Professional associations publicly abandoned their duties in the name of the issue. So, having based their existence, positions, leaderships and literature on the enemy, how can we imagine that those
    institutions can adapt when the day comes that we no longer have an enemy?

    Dave talks about the refusal to adequately care for the Arab refugees of the War of Independence, and this man talks about the refusal of the Arabs to imagine themselves without a Zionist enemy. These are two sides of the same coin – the coin of self deception.

    Were the Israeli regime not dominated by criminals, and were the Arabs not dominated and mentally demonized by the coin of self deception, a modus vivendi and a peace agreement could be reached by all the Children of Abraham within weeks. The truth of the matter is that the major issues all render themselves to simple solutions – simply not the solutions bruted about in the mainstream media by the servants of the family of ibn Saud, that’s all.

    Just as I can imagine a total war here, I can imagine a comprehensive peace. But reread the conclusions of Abdul Rahman Al-Rashed above.

    “having based their existence, positions, leaderships and literature on the enemy, how can we imagine that those institutions can adapt when the day comes that we no longer have an enemy?”

  • Esteban

    Actually, the UN came up with the original partition plan for Israel. But for decades, the Zionist movement had been flooding the region with immigrants in an attempt to overwhelm the existing population in Palestine. They initially set up settlements in relatively unpopulated areas, and even did some nice things like reclaim arid land and make it arable again. Awww…isn’t that sweet?

    However, their goal was always the same: to overwhelm the region with Jews to legitimize their claim to a homeland. As this progressed, tensions increased, and violence erupted periodically. The non-Zionist Jews who already lived in the region– not surprisingly –were none too happy with these interlopers on their religious crusade, which is all that this was.

    If you think Israel is justified in its existence, you have a logic problem. That problem is this: where do you stop? Will you carve off a slab of Romania and create the Gypsy homeland? Will you carve off a piece of Iraq for the Kurds? Will you carve off lots of pieces of the U.S. for all of the different tribes that were ejected from their homelands just a few hundred years ago?

    The Zionists are religious racist nutcases. It’s all about Lebensraum for the Chosen People and that sickens me. If you aren’t sure about that, ask yourself this: how many pro-Israeli folks have you met who give a damn about far greater injustices being perpetrated all over the world? They’ll tell you how bad the Arabs are, how unfair they are, how the Israelis are just defending themselves, and how they are the good guys so we should support them. But they aren’t out drumming up support for the people of the world who face far, far worse situations, far greater evils. Somehow, shockingly, the only “injustices” they are interested in have to do with Israel. Hmm…perhaps they are not disinterested and impartial judges of the situation. Just a wild guess.

    As for the idea that Israel doesn’t depend on people like me for its survival…think again. Check the direction the money and weapons are flowing in the relationship between the U.S. and Israel. Check the tacit acceptance by the U.S. of the rampant spying that Israel conducts in this country. Even when they sold our nuclear secrets to the freakin Chinese…what happened? Nothing. America is, in a nutshell, Israel’s bitch. It sickens me.

    I don’t dislike Israel’s current position any more than I dislike the Arabs’. They’re both completely full of shit, and all they have to do to bring this to an end is stop killing each other and allow the people that were displaced when Israel made its (ostensibly) defensive land grab to move back into their homes. End of story. The reason Israel is such an irritation to me is that the U.S. so unconditionally backs them up in their feud with the Arabs, despite the fact that there is no reason to support one group over another.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    “At the same time I know exactly who and what the Palestinians are, and they have no particular geographical ties to that specific area.”

    Why do you say this.

    Because the Palestinians are culturally indistinguishable from most of the Arabs in the region and could be relocated with no particular harm to their society. Most of them migrated into the area relatively recently, and those who were serious about staying have found a way to live with Israel or in Israel.

    Also you do realise that the reason for Zionists claiming that particular land is because of their religious belief. Which makes them a religious organization. They would not have accepted Lithuania as a homeland Dave.

    Is it religious or cultural? Jews are not just a religious group. They’re a culture and a nation and to some degree an identifiable ethnicity. Religion may be a unifying factor, but the primary acceptable argument for their current location is that it’s where they lived the last time they were settled anywhere as a politically identifiable group, plus there was a significant Jewish population already present in the area.

    Religion is just a part of the larger culture.

    Dave

  • Esteban

    Arabs dominated Palestine demographically speaking at the time that the Zionists began their crusade. Overwhelmingly the largest population segment. And Arabs had controlled the area for hundreds of years, until the Ottoman Empire fell. In fact, you have to go back nearly 2,000 years, to before the arrival of the Romans, to find the last Jewish state in the region.

    To say that Palestinians have no claim to the land is false; there are people still living who were pushed out of their homes when Israel was created. Several Arab nations attacked Israel, and Israel responded by clearing huge areas of their populations and taking them on for themselves. Clearly we see how both the Arabs and the Israelis are guilty. A person who doesn’t understand that is kidding themselves.

    In the end, the creation of Israel was stupid. There is no rationale that will get you past the hypocrisy of supporting the creation of Israel, but not supporting the state of Iroquois. But I have never in my life heard a single Jew anywhere advocate the slicing off of a swath of America in order to create an independent sovereign nation. And yet, according to the rationale for Israel, that is the only fair and reasonable thing to do.

    The truth is, that rationale is bunk. Pure bullshit.

    The right of Israel to exist is the same as the right of the United States to exist. In essence, there is no such right. If you want your state to survive, you’ll have to fight to keep it alive. If it’s alright with the Israelis, I’d like to stop sending them a chunk of my fucking paycheck every month now. And good luck with that Israel thing. I’ll be here fighting off the Sioux.

  • Nancy

    Ruvy, much as I like & respect you, I have to agree w/Zedd (& Zing, & Esteban) that you are falling into the trap of calling anyone who disagrees with you by names such as ‘racist’ or ‘antisemitic’. They’re not. You want antisemitic? Try Redtard or JOM. THAT is antisemitic and/or racist. All the rest are simply disagreeing with you. Period. Please don’t read anything more into comments than that.

    You’re right, in that trying to remove the religion from the politics is impossible in this particular matter & geopolitical/historical arena. Secularists like myself, Esteban, or Chris Rose have the frustration of having to try to talk “sense” to people who – to us – babble constantly about non-sense, ideologies that don’t exist & have no basis for action let alone belief. This in turn creates a chasm of misunderstanding, because we are literally not speaking the same languages, even tho using common words; the meanings are entirely different.

    After reading the above comments, I think I’d have to say that I think Dave comes closest to my own thoughts on this, with a little more thrown in. After reading your articles, I have to say I consider that Zionism in its current, official sense is a far different thing than it was 80 or even 30 years ago. Today it does seem to verge on a sort of ultra-nationalist sense of religious & even racial superiority & unlimited aggression/expansion, & on more than one occasion Isreal has indeed demonstrated that they have become that which they most hated in order to survive if not expand. On the other, you all live under circumstances which I readily admit I can’t even conceive of, and even here in my safe haven in the US I concede that Isreal thus far has seemed to be for the most part entirely justified by most of its aggression, particularly in response to the usual blind, mindless violence of the arab/palestinian/muslim antagonists over issues 50 or more years old. That may indeed be the problem: the semitic groups seem to nurse grudges & hatreds long after most other groups worldwide have given them up, moved on, & gotten a life, so to speak. As I once mentioned on another thread, I don’t know any other people on earth who make a celebration & ceremony out of a traditional yet fictional grudge against another group that occurred (IF it occurred at all, which archeologists & historians now concede is unlikely) well over 5,000 years ago! This is madness. It’s like me holding a grudge against anyone with Viking heritage because 1,000 years ago they pillaged my ancestral home village somewhere in coastal England, & I spend each year memorializing it.

    As for Jerusalem & other such places, I think maybe the best thing that could happen would be if all such places were utterly destroyed: Jerusalem, Mecca, Medina, etc. If they didn’t exist any more, maybe there wouldn’t be a reason to slaughter anyone else over them. I also can’t help but feel that God, if he/she/it/they exist, will not be terribly happy or forgiving of those who commit atrocities in His/Her/Its/Their name. But that’s just my feelings about it all.

  • Graham McKnight

    ‘Several Arab nations attacked Israel, and Israel responded by clearing huge areas of their populations and taking them on for themselves. Clearly we see how both the Arabs and the Israelis are guilty. A person who doesn’t understand that is kidding themselves.’

    What we are dealing with here, Esteban, are Palestinian Arabs. This cultural entity was used a pawn by both Zionist factions of the Israeli government and military, as well as Nasser of Egypt et al.

    That aside, whilst I appreciate Esteban’s and Nancy’s comments on Arab-Israeli relations in general, I would also like to know what the newcomers to this thread think of the article itself.

  • zingzing

    huh. kristen, did you notice the “opinion” heading at the top?

    zionism has changed. israel is just as guilty as the arabs for continuing a stupid war. if it were possible to replace jerusalem with an ocean, the world would probably be a better place. (clear out all the people first…)

    i have a twin brother. when i was a child, I (or maybe he) got a donald duck doll. we both liked it and fought over it until my mother took it away and hid it in a closet. 25 years later, i saw it again. it was a rather raggedy knock-off donald duck. i don’t even like donald duck much anymore. i can’t see why we fought about it so hard.

    jerusalem sits in an unforgiving environment, hot in the summer, cold and wet in the winter, polluted, etc. since neither side wants to stop fighting about it, neither side should get to have it. children.

  • Zionism

    Re: zingzing You are a sick person. You have some nerve talking so flippantly about the fate of MILLIONS of people. Good thing you don’t make the rules in this world. If she knew what you are saying your mother would be ashamed of you, and your comments reflect poorly on the job she did raising you.

  • Graham McKnight

    Firstly, people ought to put a name, nickname or an alias in the ‘name’ bar when writing a message. ‘Re: zingzing’ is not a name, failing to reveal yourself is cowardice.

    Kirsten J. Congratulations for pointing out the obvious; this article is indeed ‘not scholarship’. As zingzing reminds us; it is an opinion piece. Opinion pieces need not aspire to be anything more than they are. Also, every argument is biased, the notion of objectivity as an historical method is dead.

    Mike Jackson; don’t use racism as a disabling device, it serves only to discredit your ability to engage critically with the argument.

  • Zionism

    “…the notion of objectivity as an historical method is dead.”

    Yet another argument for which you provide no support. You just made that up to rationalize your unfairness.

    “Mike Jackson; don’t use racism as a disabling device.”

    You are a racist Graham. Your arguments and opinions make that very clear.

  • zingzing

    re:re:zingzing:

    you seem to take me too literally. i don’t want to “wipe israel off the map,” but all this childish fighting makes it perfectly clear that the world would be a safer place without the ugly thorn that is jerusalem causing so many wars. if people could be civil, all would be well, but i think the last 50 years (or 3,000, depending on what you’re looking for) have proven that people will always fight over a little shit of a city (there are some nice buildings… lots of history… maybe it should made into a big tourist trap).

    again, i’m not saying “destroy jerusalem.” i’m just saying the world would be safer without it. any argument against that? i doubt it, you coward.

  • Graham McKnight

    ‘LingLing’ says that: ‘[your assertion that objectivity is dead is] Yet another argument for which you provide no support. You just made that up to rationalize your unfairness.’

    I’m sorry to reveal this to you ‘lingling’, but if you were to read E.H. Carr’s ‘What is History?’ and then read the multitude of contemporary criticm directed against his argument for historians to be objective in their reportings, you deduce that I am far from ‘making it up’.

    Tell me ‘lingling’, do you read or study history? No?

    It shows.

  • Zedd

    Dave

    Thanks for your response once more.

    I am confused as to why you think it is feasible for people who have lived on a land for thousands of years to be moved because they resemble other people in the world.

    Also many Jews have lived in Europe for thousands of years. They don’t have a RIGHT to anything in the middle east. Their religion doesn’t give them a right to ANYTHING in a civic society.

    Would you be willing to be moved to Ireland because Mexicans wanted Texas back? That is, leave your property, business, everything that you have worked for and move to a part not of your choosing, wherever you are placed.

    Dave, my roots are in Southern Africa. Every ancestor that I know of is from that region and perhaps (from my appearance) some going back tens of thousands of years to the Bushman, meaning that I go back to that part of the world to when humans first walked upright. THAT is a tie to land.

    However, I am an American citizen. If I go to South Africa, I hold and American passport like you do, who has no ties. If I choose to repatriate, I have to go through the process that ALL immigrants go through. I don’t hold a RIGHT to that beautiful land. We live in civic societies. As emotionally tied as I am to my home (and you can tell that I am), I am American.

    This strange temper tantrum that some Jews throw about this land doesn’t fit in a society that wants to participate among other civilized societies. Israel hedges between the same world of their neighbors where religion rules policy and a world where laws devised out of reason. They want the respect and partnership of civilized, DEMORATIC societies yet withhold it from others. We need to stop coddling Dave.

  • sr

    Zedd. Just mailed you a box of 50,000 flies. Just open and release in your home. Thank me later. They are horse flies and may bite. I like to fry then in garlic and butter. Hold your nose while frying.

  • Zedd

    Ruvy

    I have said this on a number of threads, respect you. I love your passion and conviction. While I don’t share your beliefs, I think that in this world there is very little that people have passion for. You are truly living life, brave enough to leave your home to start over in another world… wow. Its all extraordinary.

    I also love Jews. I respect how many have used their suffering to champion others including Arabs. I am appreciative how it is that in many cases when we couldn’t speak for ourselves because of legal limitations both here and in South Africa, Jewish men and women rose up and went in the doors that we couldn’t enter, on our behalf. I respect their love for culture. I respect many Jews for their ownership of this world. By that I mean taking ownership of their personal experiences to the extent of endeavoring where ever they are, and ignoring the negativity around them. Its all beautiful. I love the rituals. When I moved into an all White neighborhood, it was the Jews (who didn’t know each other and didn’t know that either of them were Jews), three different families (middle aged son with elderly mom no longer practicing, stay at home mom with WASP hubby who practiced judaism, a gay couple “religious” enough please parents), who came to me and welcomed me and made me feel like I was at home with them. They became family instantly. The funny thing is that neither of them knew the other was Jewish. I told them…

    I have encountered a few Jewish people who were the stereotype. Many J.A.P.s (who I envy), and two loath some characters from Jerusalem who made the characterization of the cheat look like mild because they were off the chart! I have never met such scheming shysters in my life. However, they were simply jerks, not Jewish jerks in my mind.

    So no, I feel no loathing for Jews.

    From this point, I hope that we can discuss matters without you copping out by calling me a racist or insinuating that I have negative feelings about your people.

  • Zedd

    sr

    What do you think about Zoinism?

    Thanks for thinking of me.

  • sr

    Zedd, when you speak of Zoinism do you mean the historical birthplace of the Jewish people. Israel belongs to the Jew and no one else. It is not only their birthplace it is their land given to them by G-d. Always has been and always will be. Hope you enjoyed your flies.

  • Dr Dreadful

    I think Zedd could tell you about Zionism but I don’t think she has an opinion on Zoinism. Very few people do.

    Briefly put, Zoinism is the irrational worship of the 1930s Hungarian dictator Ferenc Zoi. Zoi was a Catholic cardinal who for no apparent reason stormed into Parliament in Budapest one Thursday morning and declared himself absolute ruler of all Hungary. The Hungarian legislature were so surprised that they surrendered on the spot, despite the fact that Zoi’s forcefulness was somewhat undermined by his having forgotten to dress. He thus earned the distinction of being the only despot in history to have seized power while wearing only a wifebeater, boxers and socks with suspenders.

    Zoi ruled Hungary for less than a day, but Hungarians remember his rule with terror. His secret police were responsible for the disappearance of thousands of untoasted bagels from the delicatessens of Budapest, and he suspended parliament, declaring it to be an enemy of itself. At around 4.30 in the afternoon he was seen on the balcony of the presidential palace, explaining to a juvenile male pigeon that he was God’s anointed one. When questioned by journalists later, the pigeon was unable to explain exactly what he had meant.

    Zoi then clambered onto the parapet. As the watching crowd held its breath, he peeled a small dandruff flake from his scalp, regarded it incuriously and then fed it to the pigeon. He proceeded to clamber down again and disappear inside. Nothing more was heard from him for about an hour, whereupon he shoved a note under his office door to his secretary. The note read, “Mother?”

    At 7.05, soldiers battered down the locked door of his office and found Ferenc Zoi’s prostrate body crushed under a large upturned oak desk. It has never been determined exactly how he contrived this bizarre death, but some absurdly suggestible folks have theorized that God took him thus into Heaven. These people are now known as Zoinists, and can be seen worshipping pigeons in the urban parks of many of the world’s major cities.

  • Dr Dreadful

    J,

    Graham is neither a racist nor an anti-semite. He expressed an opinion on Zionism with which you happen to disagree, and backed it up with reasoned argument – something which I have yet to see you do. You sound like a moron. It is like calling someone a racist because they don’t intend to vote for Barack Obama.

    Now perhaps you can explain to us exactly why you think Graham is what you accuse him of being. If not, please go back to sleep and stop being a prick.

  • Zionism

    If Finkelstein was so great and trustworthy like Graham claims (by citing him as an authoritative source in his article) then why didn’t he get tenure? Careful before you blame it on the Jews and Israelis. DePaul is a Catholic University.

  • Dr Dreadful

    Dr Dreadful, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walk like a duck, then most likely it’s duck.

    No.

    Using reasoned arguments, please, not meaningless cliches.

    And try to use the same damn alias for two posts running. That will at least help you be taken more seriously than a duck.

  • Zedd

    Ruvy/ Dave

    Is it not true that in religious prayers (the Standing Prayer, the Passover and Yom Kippur) the phrase “next year in Jerusalem” is included at the end, if I am not mistaken.

    You have to acknowledged that the religious does play THE major roll in Zionism.

    While most immigrants do always have a love and affinity for their motherland, most understand that once they have given up their citizenship, their claim on the land ends. The distorted idea of a biological or religious ownership of land without legal sanction is what makes the Israeli situation so complex. It becomes problematic for the world.

    The truth be told, without the sentimentality wich is brought on by the Old Testament story beginning with Abraham to Elijah, the world would not be so willing to participate in supporting this oddity.

    My progeny 2000 years from now, will not to lay claim on a single acre in Johannesburg from whatever part of the world they may reside in without following the standard processes of land ownership. My South Africanness will mean nothing and that will not play a role in their deserving consideration for land ownership.

  • Zedd

    Doc

    You are silly but funny!

    Its still a cult.

  • Zionism

    Zedd, most Israelis bought their land fair and square. However once Jews turned the land into a paradise the Arabs wanted it back.

  • Zedd

    Truth,

    Are you saying that Arabs left because they wanted to not out of fear and they changed their minds and wanted it back?

    That isn’t logical. You sound brainwashed because your reasoning is so warped. Check yourself.

    On the Jews who bought the land, I don’t doubt it. I believe that individuals did and do buy land but he premise is the problem. The idea of it being theirs as a people ONLY no matter where their home is and has been for thousands of years. That is insane and manipulative.

    If any other group were to make that claim today, they would be thought to be crazy cultists. Heck Native Americans in Canada cant get their land back and they have the paper work to support it and its only been a hundred and some years. Lets not talk about a THOUSAND years. Its crazy!!

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    @#57:

    Dr. D:

    Did they teach you about Zoi in the seminary?

    Very few people know his full story.

    His father was (before Zoi was born of course), my great, great (who certainly wasn’t great enough to merit TWO greats) grandfather’s majordomo during the Crimean War.

    Family legend has it that great, great, Granddad would beat Zoi’s father to within an inch of his life if he didn’t get the creases of great great Grandad’s underwear just so when pressing them.

    Apparently, this horrific life in Crimea drove the poor sod round the bend, and by the time Ferenc was born, the old man was a complete basket case.

    Historians agree that it was seeing his father in such a pitiful state during his (Ferenc’s) teen years that inspired Zoi to become a priest, working in the insane asylums of Budapest to relieve the suffering of the crazy Hungarians.

    Later, of course, after he had wrought bedlam in the bedlams, he was promoted to Cardinal.

    The rest, as you described, is history.

  • Zionism

    Unfortunately you are unable to talk Israel out of existence Zedd. Zionists and Jews like me could care less about what you think about us. If you are promising action, and want to sign up with Arab armies or terrorists to destroy Israel, then let us know. If not, spare everyone your ignorance and racism.

  • Dr Dreadful

    #66: I was thrown out of the seminary for asking about Zoi. I think they were ashamed of him.

    But you did give yourself away in your comment. I wonder how many people on BC would take you as seriously if they knew that “Clavos” in Hungarian means pigeon, and that this is the origin of your online monniker and not the Spanish word for nails, as you spuriously claim.

    😉

  • Zedd

    Lobby

    You sound brainwashed. Its a cult.

  • Zedd

    The truth is finally out!!!

    Clavos the Hungarian spy and lead prefect of the Zio School of Proper Spelling and Underwear Ironing.

    Thank you Doctor!!

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    “I wonder how many people on BC would take you as seriously if they knew that “Clavos” in Hungarian means pigeon, and that this is the origin of your online monniker and not the Spanish word for nails, as you spuriously claim.”

    Give me a break, DD!

    I’m waaayy too old to be rolling around on the floor laughing my head off!

    You might have given me a heart attack, thus perpetuating the legend…

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    For an American who spent his childhood among Arabs, and who generally is sympathetic to their side of things, that is a reasonable assessment to come to. But Dave is an American shooting coyotes in Texas. How about the local Arabs who have to live with the consequences of his words?

    Ruvy, I like to think that having lived in the region and spent time in Israel and among Palestinians, but now having the removal of some years and plenty of distance, I can be relatively impartial on the subject. There was a time when I thought Israel should just be nuked on principle, but at I’ve come to admire the resolve and resilience of the Israelis. The Palestinians are potentially fine people, but they’ve been put in an unacceptable position which brings out the worstin them. Both peoples deserve better leadership than they’ve got and are being used by others for no good purpose.

    Dave

  • Zedd

    #72

    Well stated!!!

  • STM

    Lol. I’ve missed all the action. What a hoot … one of my mates is nicknamed pigeon … I might start calling him Clavos (or is that Clavosh?)

    My, how social morays have changed.

  • Zedd

    Esteban #24

    I missed this post.

    You have articulated what I have stated many times over. I am now exhausted with this matter and have less patience. We have to listen to some news real from this country every day when the entire planet is inhabited by all sorts of wonderful souls who’s lives matter just as much. Our inner cities are a wasteland and yet we have to report every robbery of a piece of candy in Jerusalem (almost) in the nightly news. People in Sudan are being tormented by bullies and suffering immensely but somehow their well being is less important. The Kashmiri situation is not resolved and yet we obsess about this nation. Its enough already. The attention should be embarrassing.

  • Zedd

    STM

    You are cruising for a bruising Zulu style.

    I goofed #70 up too.

    I’ll blame the meds this time.

  • STM

    Sorry Zedd, but it’s a boring Satrurday at work – and it’s pissing down outside (drought’s broken) – and you, DD, and Clav have provided a little light at the end of the tunnel. Let’s hope it’s not an oncoming goods train.

  • Dr Dreadful

    Wish it would rain here, but it won’t until October at the earliest. Folks think California is all about surfing and palm trees, when the reality here in the Central Valley is pollution, allergies and frying your breakfast on the hood of your car. Still, I have my rain & thunder CD which lulls me to sleep each night. It’s not quite the same, but I’m blessed with a good imagination.

  • Graham McKnight

    I am glad to have the support of the Doc, Clavos and Zedd etc. For a while I thought the BC threads were being hijacked by pigeons…

  • http://www.robot-of-the-week.com Christopher Rose

    We seem to have had one of those cases where the person who originally started posting under the name Zionism has started using other names to post comments. I have corrected their error and also deleted some of the more blatant personal attacks on Mr McKnight.

  • STM

    Well Doc, when I say rain, I mean the kind of rain that kills people. Two huge coal freighters have been washed onto sandbanks off Newcastle, five people were killed when their car disappeared into a giant hole in the Pacific Hwy and sank downstream, others have been washed to their deaths down creeks and stormwater drains, Cremorne Point ferry wharf sank and disappeared in the harbour, thousands of people are without power, rail lines closed, heaps of car smashes, etc etc. Literally, it’s been carnage over this Queen’s Birthday long weekend, traditionally the time when everyone packs up and goes away for a few days.

    But the past few weeks have brought rain to the bush and to South-east Queensland, which means the drought, finally, may be over …

    Here’s hoping.

  • Nancy

    One more reason for Eric to make it policy that to post on BC everyone uses ONE name – & ONE name ONLY – or get booted off & banned. This business of hiding behind multiple names is bullshit. Not to mention cowardly & juvenile, a tactic borrowed from Karl Rove & his ilk.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Yeah, I know for a fact Rove posts under multiple names right here on BC.

    I’ve seen him use Nancy, Dr. Dreadful, Arch Conservative, STM, Clavos, Christopher Rose, Dave Nalle, I mean the list goes on and on…

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    My, how social morays have changed.

    What, they’re no longer eels who hold tea parties?

    Dave

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    “(or is that Clavosh?)”

    Only if you’re pissed.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    I have just a few points to make. Over the Sabbath I have seen the comments go from unreasonable to ridiculous.

    I have accused nobody of being a Jew-hater – neither the author nor anyone else commenting; I did say that I will not consider whether Zedd is a racist now.

    I see that none of you (except perhaps Dave Nalle) have taken the trouble to read parts II, III, or IV of my four articles on the Shadow of the Six Day War. If you don’t read my detailed analysis, how do you think you know what I believe? If you don’t read what I write, you cannot judge what I have to say, or what I believe.

    This tells me that I need not waste my time on this thread responding further to anything any of you have to say, simply because you have constructed a cardboard cut-out image of the “evil crazed religious settler” that you wish to shoot at. This is particularly true of many of the Americans commenting here, and of the South African immigrant who seems to think that her shit doesn’t stink.

    Until you read what I have to say about this issue – and I know a hell of a lot more on this issue than a 20 year old undergraduate who is still forming his impressions of life and the world – you can rant in rave in your ignorance. I have other fish to fry.

  • Dr. Shuckalgrover

    As a world renowned expert of Industrial Biological Psychology we refer to name changes as bacisrisim. Take for example sr. He as the Intellect of Albert Einstein or Stinky and must tie half is brain behind is back just to make it fair. Believe Nancy is right however I suspect she is suffering from a severe case of Karlroveitus. She loves him but she cannot submit her deep sexual desires toward’s Karl. I wish her success.

    Sincerely,
    Dr.Shuckalgrover
    IBP,TS
    Institute of ABA
    at Los Angeles

  • sr

    Ruvy, what time is the fish fry and should I bring a potato salad or beans. Hope to see you in Israel my friend.

    Shabbat Shalom,
    sr

  • Zedd

    Ruvy

    No one is posting based on your beliefs. People are expressing THEIR views on Zionism. Not Ruvyism you mad Jude.

    I personally, will read your installments when the mood hits. I will comment if I feel the need to. We will discuss then.

  • Zedd

    Dave

    You anal retentive wacko. I’m glad that you can throw in a joke ever-so-often.

  • troll

    not to be so discouraged Reuven…some of us already have read your restatement in depth of the 101 ways your secular government has gone wrong and reaffirmation of your surrender to your deity’s will

    while it’s an interesting history I found nothing about your beliefs that you haven’t expressed before

    good luck

  • Zedd

    Ruvy

    I forgot how insane you are (crazy Jew man). The first part of my last post was installed in jest. I should have added an emoticon like this one :o) so that you don’t loose it.

    Shalom

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    This will be my last comment on this thread. I’d like it recorded before the level of comments here sinks to moronic (these things do happen, Graham – even to the best of articles.) If the comments rise to an intelligent level, I reserve the right to change my mind.

    To sr:

    Thank you ever so much for hurling thine trebuchets on my behalf. Back to back, we struggle on against the uncivilized fools and knaves of the world, on as may sheets in (or to) the wind as we may need…

    To Dave: you wrote

    “Ruvy, I like to think that having lived in the region and spent time in Israel and among Palestinians, but now having the removal of some years and plenty of distance, I can be relatively impartial on the subject. There was a time when I thought Israel should just be nuked on principle, but at I’ve come to admire the resolve and resilience of the Israelis. The Palestinians are potentially fine people, but they’ve been put in an unacceptable position which brings out the worst in them. Both peoples deserve better leadership than they’ve got and are being used by others for no good purpose.”

    Considering what we’ve been privileged to hear of your own upbringing in the Middle East, I could easily understand your feeling at one time that Israel should be nuked on principle. But at least, unlike so many others, you were in the neighborhood and could see how your purported enemy behaved close up, that you could make condemnations.

    And it speaks well of you that you can view things differently now.

    Shavua Tov, ‘Adkán ul’hitrea’ót.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    “I’d like it recorded before the level of comments here sinks to moronic”

    Too late, Ruvy.

  • Dr Dreadful

    Stan:

    Just been reading about the NSW storms on the BBC. Bit of a bloody mess, eh? Anyway, check in and let us know you and yours are OK, all right?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    BTW, Stan, haven’t you Aussies heard of the concept of moderation?

    From drought to hurricane-like conditions from one week to the next? :>)

    I hope all is well with you and yours, mate!

  • STM

    Dave: “What, they’re no longer eels who hold tea parties?”

    When a tooth flashes by, then takes out your eye, Dah dah dah, dah dah dah, that’s a moray …

  • Dr Dreadful

    Good to see you’re surviving the wet over there. Although from the sounds of things you may currently be sharing downtown Sydney with a few moray eels.

    Yet another example of Australia’s deadly wildlife. It’s a wonder anyone survives past childhood down there. Ravenous sharks, homicidal crocodiles, Tasmanian devils, venomous platypuses, baby-stealing dingoes, man-eating prime ministers…

    And the question is, why? Why does a small and otherwise inoffensive spider which subsists on small flies need enough venom to take out a platoon of heavily-armed Marines?

    Excuse me while I deal with this black widow in my soup.

  • STM

    Thanks guys, but all good so far …. however, it has been carnage. Really sad about the family washed away to their deaths on the Old Pacific Hwy. You can’t do much when fate has that on the cards. They just drove straight into a dirty great hole that opened up in the road.

    Tragedies aside, there are some good aspects. I think the heavy rainfall that began in April will mark ther end of the drought. South-east Queensland has been getting good rain too.

  • Zedd

    Stan

    You kept us waiting much too long. I realise we all have our real lives but geeeeez!

    Glad you are well and sorry to read about that family. I am sick about it. Maybe best that they left together. Just how it happened is unimaginable.

  • STM

    DD, the two main venomous spiders on the east coast, and in NSW in particular, are the funnel web and the red back (although they aren’t the only ones). The funnel web can be deadly. The red back (which doesn’t always have a red back, and can come in variations) used to be a drama way back when people had outside toilets, as folks used to get up in the middle of the night, sit on the dunny seat and get stung on the backside.

    The funnel web, however, isn’t so funny and can be deadly. You do have to be careful of them. One afternoon last summer, my daughter wanted to go for a swim and made me do the usual search of our pool area and its rocky surrounds for funnel webs (they can actually live in bubbles of air in the water). If she sees an oversized bull ant she thinks it might be a deadly spider. Anyway, while I was doing that, and poking at leaves on the bottom of the pool, a red-bellied black snake (highly venomous), disturbed by us as it basked on the concrete, slithered past my toes at 100mph and disappeared into a bush.

    My daughter saw the movement out of the corner of her eye, and I told her it was a lizard – otherwise, she’d never have gone into the backyard again.

    She said, “You sure Dad, it seemed like a really long lizard”. I told her its was a special breed of long lizard with tiny, almost non-existent legs which meant it had to move like a snake.

    Then she wanted to look it up in her Australian Animals book, and lo and behold, there was such a creature (probably in Tasmania, but never mind).

    Saved!

  • STM

    Clav wrote: “Too late, Ruvy.”

    Lol.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Stan,

    Do you fish?

  • Zedd

    Boys are so silly!

  • STM

    Clav, only when I go camping with the boys and all our younger kids (no wives, girlfriends or grown-up sheilas of any description, and thus not a mixed-bean salad in sight) … which is once a year. It’s a bit more of a sedate activity than that on that video though … dangling a line off a wharf whilst using the peace and quiet as an excuse for a snooze :)

    At the place we go to, there’s a sign where you get off the ferry that says: “All children must be accompanied by a responsible adult”.

    Lol …

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    “At the place we go to, there’s a sign where you get off the ferry that says: “All children must be accompanied by a responsible adult”.”

    What do you do, bribe someone? :>)

  • Dr Dreadful

    Clav #99:

    Wh…? What…? Why…? Where… ? When…? Who…?

  • Dr Dreadful

    I think that sign is pretty self-explanatory. I interpret it to mean that all children must be accompanied by a responsible adult at some point in their lives. Nowhere on the sign does it specify that the responsible adult has to be present at the campsite.

    I think that’s something with which we can all be on board.

  • STM

    “I interpret it to mean that all children must be accompanied by a responsible adult at some point in their lives”

    What, like May 16, 1998, between 7pm and 7.15pm … or 7.25 at a stretch?

    That’d be about it in most cases with my mates. The kids just run riot at these things while the dads get on the squirt. I am the only one who doesn’t drink, and therefore the only one who knows where they are at all times, and also the only one who wakes up with what feels like a hangover because I go to bed about 1am and can’t sleep while most of the others sit up playing the guitar (badly) and trying to sing silly songs.

    They get on the piss, turn in about 3am and sleep like babies. I continue rolling over on the rock that invariably seems to place itself under my sleeping bag (no poofter air matresses allowed).

  • Dr Dreadful

    Hmm… I think I know why they bring you along… :-)

    My experience of “poofter air mattresses” is that you might as well sleep on rocks anyway. We were forced to use one last summer when our air conditioner went out right before the 4th of July weekend. Chances of getting a repairman were nil and it was the middle of the worst heatwave in years, even by central California standards – the temperature got into the triple digits for 21 consecutive days and didn’t get much below 90 even at night. We blew up the air mattress downstairs where it was cooler and tried to get some sleep. Unfortunately with this particular mattress (%$&#ing Wal-Mart) it was either inflate it so much that it was like sleeping on a tombstone, or not enough and end up with your bums on the floor at 3 a.m.

    Next time the AC goes on the blink, I’m checking into a campsite…

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Doc #103:

    Salmon. One of the rivers in the PNW.

    That’s all I know.

    That’s my story, and I’m sticking to it…

  • Dr Dreadful

    Clav: You can’t fool me. I know that’s really you in the video waving your loaded bow around wildly right under a freeway bridge with trucks crossing it. You irresponsible so-and-so, you.

    😉

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Hey, it was opening day of truck driver season! Give me a break!

  • Ben Gross

    A poor analysis with less than a basic understanding of the conflict. Too much focus on trying to distance yourself from anti-semitism. Am I to suppose you’ve been accused just a few too many times?

  • Graham McKnight

    Ben,

    The article is about those who accuse people of being anti-semites simply because they choose to discredit Zionism. It has little to do with the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, if that is what you were suggesting that it lacked.

    If you were looking for an analysis of the Arab-Israeli conflict then of course you would think of this article as poor… because it doesnt attempt to do that.

    Notice the title: ‘Zionism: Past and Present’, it doest exactly what it says on the tin.