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You Really Have No Idea

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Most of you who are reading this article are not tied into the network of political grassroots activists and professional agitators with whom I am in contact every day. Like most of our media, our political leaders and just about everyone else, I suspect that you have almost no idea of the level of anger which is seething below the surface in this country.

At most, you probably see only the tip of the iceberg of white-hot rage which is consuming and radicalizing more and more of our population. You may laugh at the claims of the Birthers or scratch your heads at the slogans on the signs held up at a Tea Party or snicker when Bill Maher calls the political right crazy. You dismiss protesters as "angry white males" and point to the declining number of self-identifying Republicans and the complacent Democrats holding all of the power in the halls of government and you think you've won, the future is yours. Obama is in office and all's well in the world. You couldn't be more wrong and nothing is as it seems.

You think that the dwindling number of Republicans means that people are being driven away from the conservative message and presumably being won over by Obama and the left. But did you examine the polls? Yes, the GOP has lost supporters. But while the number of Republicans has gone down, the number of self-identified Democrats has not gone up significantly. These disaffected voters haven't left the Republicans, they've left the political mainstream altogether. They are still conservative. They just think the Republican party has failed them and is too moderate.

What you are missing is the rapidly growing block of voters who are extremely conservative and very angry and who are hostile to both political parties. No one is polling to find them, but I suspect they make up about 20% of the population at this point. About half of them still reluctantly vote with the Republicans and about half just vote against incumbents and the establishment if they even still think their votes have any meaning, which many do not. In a lot of cases they no longer see elections or politics as a way to solve the nation's problems at all. They have become radicalized.

The radicalization and the rage are becoming harder to just brush off. Much of the rage is misdirected and poorly expressed, and a lot of the rhetoric seems crazy and representative of a lunatic fringe. But when your lunatic fringe includes tens of millions of people who are increasingly motivated to take action, you ignore them at your peril.

Right now it's little things, but you can see the beginnings of a transition from angry talk to angry action.

Look at the crowds at the protests which now spring up wherever Obama or other public officials appear. They aren't just a handful of country club Republicans in their golfing outfits. They're young and they're increasingly aggressive and they clearly have a list of specific complaints. The hair may be shorter and some of the issues may be different, but they are very reminiscent in tone and character of the protesters of the 1960s.

Perhaps more telling is the anonymous protest of anti-Obama graffiti, which is springing up all over the country. Cases have been reported in Houston, Raleigh, Columbus, Grand Rapids, DC, Indiana, New York and all over California and Florida. Tagging the cars and the homes of Democrat party officials seems to be the most popular form which this protest takes. There has also begun to be some proliferation of anti-Obama posters, like the Obama/Joker poster being posted all over Los Angeles and various soviet-style Obama as socialist/communist posters which are quite popular.

This sort of protest is really in its infancy, but if the apparent intent of the administration to silence dissent and criminalize protest continues, you can reasonably expect underground protests to become more widespread, more destructive and ultimately more violent. The recent appointment of internet censorship advocate Cass Sunstein as a sort of anti-free-speech Czar has raised a great deal of concern, as has the recent crackdown by the DHS and FBI on a very broadly defined group of "extremists" which includes returning veterans and non-violent protesters.

What outsiders seem not to understand is that while these protests are directed at President Obama and Democrats in general, they mostly do not originate with the Republican party. The common response of saying that Bush was just as bad and why didn't they protest Bush shows how clueless most observers are. To these radicalized conservatives the Obama administration is seen as barely distinguishable from the Bush administration, or an extension of it. They call Bush and many mainstream Republicans socialists and see them as part of the same ruling political elite. In fact, these are often conservatives who opposed the Iraq war and many of them have actually been protesting since early in the Bush administration. It's just that Obama's politics are more clearly defined and have given them a better target and the ability to draw more people to their cause.

You may think goofy controversies like the questions about Obama's birthplace are silly and they certainly draw the ridicule of pundits and humorists, but to those involved they are seen as deadly serious issues and only a small part of a vast conspiracy to destroy America. And some of their other issues are more legitimate, appealing less to the parodists and pundits and more to the political mainstream. They may not all agree on who the real villains are, but they strike a chord with the general public when they argue that that government is no longer listening to the people and that action is needed to effect real change. In a way, it's very much the same anger that brought Obama and his message of change to power, but now it's bitter and disappointed and alienated and feeling increasingly isolated and threatened.

With growing numbers of angry people who feel they have no voice in government and that they are under very real threat from that government, you have a formula for radicalization and increasing extremism. When they are driven to action and there are no legitimate avenues for them to pursue, the protest is going to come out in unacceptable ways. We're not there yet, but you can expect to see escalation with more vandalism and increasing violence which will accelerate with every arrest and every restriction of rights.

At this point I don't know how far the process of radicalization will go, but the more the agitators seem to be oppressed, the more people they will draw to their banner, and there is a magic number of about 30% of the population; when the movement reaches that size, change will come, and it may not be the change you were hoping for.

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About Dave Nalle

  • Arch Conservative

    Has there ever been anyone as arrogant as Obama in the White House?

    Not in my lifetime anyway. (I’m 32)

    Apparently Obama believed that his election meant he’d be able to stroll into the White House, give a few teleprompted speeches and we’d all become socialists overnight.

    For someone who is supposedly so brilliant, that’s an awfully dumb plan.

    He and his party have grossly misread the tea leaves from last year’s election. They saw the election as green light to ramp up their uber leftist agenda and try to mainstream it throughout the nation. Big, big mistake. Last year’s election was, more than anything else, a referendum on George Bush and many conservative Republicans like myself were glad to see him go. It was not however a mandate to turn this nation into a European style socialist state.

    The Dems have way overplayed their hand. They got away with the stimulus bill, the bank bailouts and the auto industry stuff because Obama was fresh in office and they were able to stoke people’s fears about the economy.

    However we all say what happened to cap and trade and now it appears that there most likely will be no government takeover of healthcare.

    Moderates and conservatives who dare criticize the one are growing very weary of being called “racist” by the Obama cultists. They’re angry about things such as the Democrats in the House voting against an amendment preventing illegals from receiving billions in healthcare services.

    Obama, because he is so arrogant, and other Dems, because they know that this is their one and only chance, will probably stay the course and try to foist their leftist agenda upon the American people. However, all the signs point to their eventual failure and for that I am grateful.

    Despite 40 years of onslaught from the radical left, America is not dead yet and with a little luck we may even experience a rebirth and return to the traditional conservative values that once made us so great.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Has there ever been anyone as arrogant as Obama in the White House? Not in my lifetime anyway. (I’m 32)

    You are just a kid, Bing. And I finally figured out what has me bothered about your moniker here, Arch Conservative. Watch this episode, the whole thing. Then think about what it sounds like to me when someone here calls you “Archie”.

    Like David says, you have no idea….

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I just saw this at Arutz Sheva. Shekel Flexes Muscles as Obama Dollar Sinks. From the article.

    The Israeli shekel rose to its highest level in a year Monday morning against the sinking American dollar, under severe pressure as U.S. President Barack Obama continues to pile up the U.S. debt. The shekel-dollar rate now is trading at the 3.74, its lowest level in a year.

    Expectations are that today’s rate may be high compared to what is ahead. Merrill Lynch predicts that by next year, the rate will drop to 3.40, which would make the shekel worth 29.5 cents, compared with 26.5 cents today.

    Read the whole article, folks. I’m always happy to bring you good news from the Holy Land….

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    All of these criminals in DC think when they win an election it’s some kind of mandate! I bet even Al Franken thinks he has a mandate from the people of MN! And he won by what, a little over 200 votes?

    You really do have to wonder when the Speaker of the House has a lower approval rating than the former VP!

    I’m not exactly sure how the speaker gets that position, but it was definately a screw up on the Dems part to make the most left leaning congressperson they have the speaker of the house…but I guess with her running her mouth she actually makes Obama seem more centered!

    The one thing I’m noticing is how many liberals are now screaming racism. I heard some bimbo on Morning Joe (editor of Salon.com)the other day say that the reason Obamas health care proposals were going no where is because America is a racist country! Not because the proposals are screwed up, but because we’re all racists. What a bunch of BS!

    Another BC’er here posted an article last week on Facebook about a pic being emailed around congress showing Obamas head on a witch doctors body and of course, this is construed as racist. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen the very same picture used with cheney and bush, but of course, they’re white, so it’s not racist.

    It makes me wonder what might happen if they start calling it Obamas voodoo health care plan???

    Somebody told me the other day that insurance companies should be forced to cover pre-existing conditions. Really? Why should any business be forced to serve anyone they don’t feel like serving?

    Does that mean I can go buy a totalled car and then get my insurance company to replace it? Isn’t that a pre-existing condition?

    No offense, but you folks that think the govt should be involved in health care just really don’t have a clue do you? Look at some of the things that govt runs already…the post office…doing a bang up job and raising rates constantly…look at congress! The dems have control of it and STILL can’t get shit passed! And not just a little control, but total control! Our govt has the anti-Midas touch, everything they touch turns to garbage!

    And just wait, when Henry Waxman gets his way and makes cigarettes illegal, EVERYBODY is gonna be paying higher taxes! And I’m a FORMER smoker!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    An angry white male!

    It’s rather new in American politics, isn’t it so, Dave? Is it perhaps because the scales have tilted so that they no longer view themselves as a privileged group but as an oppressed one? You’ve said it.

    Here’s one suggestion as to how this “radicalization,” as you call it, could be put to good use. Why not translate it into the political arena and develop a grass-root movement starting with local and eventually national politics? If the numbers are as prominent as you say they are – 30 percent – it would bound to produce short- and long-term results.

    I don’t bet, however, that any such response is forthcoming, because we’d already be seeing all the signs and symbols. Ultimately, I think you’re mischaracterizing “the movement.” I think it’s reactionary at bottom, something akin to paramilitary, militia movement of old, except that it may have expanded to include some of the newly “disenfranchised” while males.

    The birth issue is a non sequitur; and although it may serve as a temporary slogan and “call to arms,” it will not do in the long run. New ideas and thinking is required. But traditionally, a white male, especially ill-educated one, was never given to thinking. Why should he as long as everything was going his way, believing himself to occupy the privileged status in the society? So it’s kind of late to expect him to change his ways. That’s the weakest link, I think, in your argument: the group’s profile. It’s psychologically untenable.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Our govt has the anti-Midas touch, everything they touch turns to garbage!

    So the solution is every man, woman and child for themselves? I know it’s hip to have the cynical “government is the FAIL” point of view when you lean to the right, but is it really that the government consistently fails or is it that the government consistently fails in doing what you want it to do?

    Andy, I get the “no mercy” attitude you have. I really do. I get that it’s couched in bitterness, but what about compassion? The pre-existing conditions problem isn’t comparable to your crashed car analogy in most cases. In reality, the loophole as created by these insurance companies winds up costing good, honest people an awful lot of money and stress. The pre-existing conditions insurance companies rely on is often not even close to being related to the problem they are asked to cover, ie. you once had a chest cold and the insurance won’t cover your heart surgery because the chest cold might have had something to do with its onset and, face it, you’re fucked.

    Is that really an ideology you want to defend? Put aside your “fuck everybody else, I’m out for me” gig for just a second and tell me that you’d really wish that on someone.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Jordan, do you not get that when the situation in the country is driving so many people to be bitter and angry that’s the beginning of a very bad, very volatile situaton. That is NOT the reaction which a liberal government is supposed to provoke in people.

    Dave

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I think that was bound to happen, Dave. All social change tends to produce that kind of response, especially from a group which perceives itself as losing its relative position in a society. And we are going through a significant period of social change – no doubt about it. (Reread my #5.)

  • Doug Hunter

    Roger, you just don’t get it, it has nothing to do with race or social grouping. I know that meme of screaming, stating, or simply implying race/racism has worked well for you guys, it’s pretty much the only thing you have so you have to repeat it incessantly.

    My desire to not be a productive slave and subservient bitch to an all powerful government has nothing to do with skin color, race, national origin, sex, handicap, familial status, social status, class, or anything else. Your, and your fellow lefties, desire to foist that upon me disgusts me in the most basic way. That is what is radicalizing us.

  • M ark

    I suspect that, if there is a new radicalization going on in the US, it has more to do with unemployment, underemployment and class war than with Obama’s Statist policies.

    Perhaps, as Dave believes, 30% is a magic number, and were the real unemployment rate to get there then we’d see real change.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I don’t claim that racism is the predominant or the only motivation. Still, we are dealing here with an angry white male – an Anglo, too. And yes, as a social group, they are losing ground. I didn’t include you in the group – because I don’t believe you’re either a tea-bagger or a birther. But if you are, then you are a hopeless fundamentalist, only at one remove from the rabid and fanatical religious Right. The only thing of difference is the dogma. So I’m not really foisting anything on you, unless you decide that my remarks apply personally to you.

    We are going through a period of significant social change, get used to it. So the old ideas of 200 or so years ago will no longer do in the present environment – however grand and lofty and workable they may have been in the past. The entire world is becoming globalized, or perhaps you failed to notice. You should be thinking of the ways to make the best of the situation rather than crying for the lost and irretrievable past. So no, I definitely disagree. It’s not radicalization but reactionary.

    And it’s not a matter of whether I like or do not like what’s happening. So there you are, wrong again, with your lame “leftist” characterization. I don’t believe I have addressed this issue – certainly not on this thread. It’s a matter of dealing with an impending reality. So get with it, Doug, and try to be more innovative in your thinking, like I know you can. Time waits for no one.

  • Clavos

    Class war IS becoming a real issue, as the Left continuously beats that drum, preying on people’s baser instincts and fomenting envy and hatred.

    With the willing complicity of the media, the message that “the rich are evil and are exploiting you” is incessantly drummed into everyone who is not rich.

    It’s very reminiscent of the early days of the Socialist and Communist movements; it worked well then, and it will work now, especially since the current ruler is aiding and abetting in the spreading of the message.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #10

    Correct, Mark, especially with respect to the first two items. As to the third, if it is a matter of “class war,” I don’t think it’s in the traditional, Marxist sense, because these folks are not against the capitalist system. They’re more against the leveling effect that appears to be taking place – insofar that they no longer perceive themselves as better than “the niggers,” the women, and the dregs of society.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    So those of us that think the govt couldn’t run a laundromat are just bitter old uneducated white guys?

    That’s what I get from comments 5 and 6.

    [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] You liberals have your noses so far up in the air that you can’t see what’s happening right in front of you! Like the hollywood elite, you think that people that don’t think like you must be uneducated. I say that people that think like you have never lived in the real world!

    I have health insurance and in a round about way, it’s run by the govt. I guess the better way to put it is it’s the health insurance the govt or DFAS decided to buy for those of us that EARNED it! And I promise you there are plenty of pre-existing conditions in my healthcare system.

    Yeah, I’m bitter, I want to be part of that 5% that all you LIBERALS/PROGRESSIVES want to tax to death!

    I heard Donnie Dickhead on MSNBC this morning say that the middle class isn’t pissed that Nancy wants to tax the rich to death. He doesn’t believe that we aspire to anything! We’re all just happy as pigs in shit to be here in suburbia working for assholes like him!

    Jordan, I’m really happy that you like your govt run health care system up there in the great North. But that story you tell about an insurance company denying benifits because you had a cold 40 years ago is BULLSHIT and you know it.

    I’m not bitter…honest…I’m a happy man! I just turned 50, I can still hit a golf ball 300 yards, I’m relatively happily married and I have two besutiful daughters in their twenties. I get a check from the govt every month that keeps a roof over my head and health care for my family that works pretty well. But you see, that was all part of the plan that I started for myself 33 years ago when I joined the military at 17.

    When my govt health care cost me twenty years why should yours be free? Because I’m a compassionate man? Figure the odds!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Here we go again, Clavos politicizing the issue and attributing causation to human designs rather than to the workings of history, of events unfolding and their consequences.

  • Clavos

    attributing causation to human designs rather than to the workings of history, of events unfolding and their consequences.

    WTF do you think “history” IS, if not the “unfolding of events” BECAUSE of and DRIVEN BY “human designs?”

    Either you’re incredibly stupid or your being disingenuous again.

    Which is it, Roger?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    You know, I originally recommended that Bing watch the first episode of “All In The Family” because I wanted him to comprehend how stupid the name “Archie” sounded when applied to him, a short version of “Arch Conservative” – something which he is not, by the way. He is a moerate with a nasty temper. Whatever Bing is, he is, he is not some dumb bigoted idiot from Queens, who is going to be put down by all those he is bigoted against.

    But now I’m recommending that all the rest of you watch this show as well. You will see that all of the issues that tear you apart above were tearing you apart 38 years ago when this show first aired. It is remarkable! Like Dave wrote in his title, you really have no idea! And neither does he!

    So, what is the difference between then and now?

    The difference is that you are broke. You can’t throw money at the problems you have and you still do not have the answers – and Nixon’s “moral majority” – represented by hardhats who beat the living daylights out of anti-war protesters, are now the people who are slowly boiling up in anger at the “liberal” administration that has been elected.

    As pointed out in the Arutz Sheva article, I referred you to upthread,

    “Dozens of U.S. banks have gone bankrupt while tighter regulations in Israel have averted a crisis.

    However, the strong dollar poses a problem for [Israeli] exporters, whose income in dollars drops when converted at a lower rate in shekels. Bank of Israel Governor Stanley Fischer tried to overcome the problem more than a year ago with a massive purchase of dollars, going against his own stated philosophy that central bank intervention in local exchange rates usually boomerangs.

    He was able to prop up the rate to around the level of four shekels, but the massive debt that President Obama is amassing, while bailing out failing companies and printing more money to pump up the economy, has left the dollar in the skids.”

    So the options available to you Americans have also shrunk, and you are all on the skids as a result, no matter what your political orientation, or whether you think you should ignore what I say as a matter of policy or not, or whether you are so patriotically snooty that you do not wish to “consort with such as I”.

    It really is no skin off my ass. But as your dollar depreciates in value, it is sure going to be skin off yours. Because you will suffer from hyper-inflation like you have never seen in your lives – unless you lived here 30 years ago.

  • Bliffle

    IMO Dave has gone around the bend. Perhaps he’s spent too much time close to the crazies.

    For one thing, he overestimates the impact of words like ‘socialism’ and ‘communism’. It’s been a generation since the commies were the kind of military threat that caused us to tar ‘socialists’ with the same brush, and even ‘liberals’ and ‘lefties’. The commies are a past threat, and ‘socialism’ is a respectable political position. Maybe you don’t like ‘socialism’ but it’s legal, many of our allies are openly socialist, and it’s even practiced by some of our most respected Corporate CEOs as they dip deeply into government welfare.

    The American news media gives a disproportionate amount of coverage to extremist loons. I suppose they consider that ‘fairness’, reporting both sides, fair and balanced, etc. they don’t want the extremists to be able to claim that they are discriminated against. For example, I heard an audio clip from Glenn Beck on NPR (of all places!) where he was stating that he thinks Obama deep down in his heart hates white people. But it has the effect of creating a false sense of endorsement and exaggerates their numbers, to which Dave may be reacting.

    As for Obama, it’s hard for me to believe that anyone could characterize him as a rabid socialist or Marxist. Not just because of the numerous critics on the left, but because his whole history is centrist and his bi-partisan efforts are well-known. After all, he continued the Bush administration Bailouts and sent more troops to Afghanistan and has taken a rather tough position on Detainees. Seems to me that he’s a centrist and corporate-statist just like most other presidents.

    As an aside, I think the republicans are playing with fire when they stoke up the personality politics against Obama. It was a convenient tactic to slander John Kerry, a tactic that was covered when they defeated Kerry and he receded from the scene, but it’s a different matter that they use the personality politics against a long term person. Eventually the rage they stir up will redound against themselves as the mob becomes unhappy with their tepid political moves.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Simplistic picture, Clavos. Not everything that transpires can be accounted in terms of human design. You’ve heard of “unintended consequences,” no doubt, or of the “invisible hand” explanations. Just some of the examples.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    and ‘socialism’ is a respectable political position

    To whom?

    You liberals and lefties maybe!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I never used “Archie” that way, Ruvy. I’ve used it, believe it or not, as a term of . . .
    well, affection.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Dave studiously avoids saying whether he agrees with these ‘new radicals.’ This sentence for example:

    “You may think goofy controversies like the questions about Obama’s birthplace are silly and they certainly draw the ridicule of pundits and humorists, but to those involved they are seen as deadly serious issues and only a small part of a vast conspiracy to destroy America.”

    I mean, you do make them sound like unthinking weirdos. Yet you seem to admire them [as in the past you have expressed bizarre admiration for the likes of Blackwater]. If all their claims are as bogus as the birth certificate nonsense, it does cast doubts on the legitimacy of their ‘reasoning.’

    And this stuff about the Obama administration cracking down on dissent just doesn’t ring true — and is not made more credible by the link you provide to Project World Awareness, which lists this gem at the top of its list of Recent Posts:

    Glenn Beck: Cash For Clunkers is a government scam to gain access to your computer

    As for the Feds keeping an eye on extremists: if their aim is to prevent people like Timothy McVeigh from blowing up buildings, I think I can support their efforts [within the law].

    I do not believe this administration genuinely wants to suppress dissent or free speech. But if you come up with real evidence instead of alarmist heavy-breathing, I’ll agree with you.

    I know this president excites all sorts of reactions in all sorts of people. But can we try to stick to facts? Some of this is unpleasantly reminiscent of the idiots who believed Bill and Hillary Clinton ran drugs through an Arkansas airport and had people murdered.

    PS Watch out for them black helicopters, dude.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Andy,

    It’s not black and white. “The world is grey, Jack!”

    A line from Clear and Present Danger.

  • Doug Hunter

    “and ‘socialism’ is a respectable political position.”

    Yes, exactly. The problem is some people, myself included, value freedom much higher than you do. You prefer the warm security blanket of mommy/daddy government, I prefer being able to make my own decisions and chart my own course. Obviously, a large percentage or even a majority prefer subservience. It’s something I can’t even begin to comprehend.

    I have done some thinking about the future and the direction humans are going. As government grows there is no rooom for individual freedom for the little guys. The only ones achieving what we all take for granted now will be the well connected politicians and bureacrats who are above the law in any system. To that end I’m hoping to influence my children and orient their lives in that direction, where they can either work closely with the government or be directly a part of it. That is the future.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Yes, there is a kind of disconnect here, Handy as to Dave’s stance on this birther’s issue. On one hand, he does think them a lunatic fringe, yet on the other, he does admire them.

    Which is it, Dave? Will the real Dave step forward, please!

  • M ark

    Very practical, Doug.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I value freedom no less than you do, Doug. That’s why I’ve never been against capitalism with an added, ethical component. What we may be experiencing right now is a reaction to past abuses, not to mention the fact that the geopolitical realities are changing. And if globalization is here to stay, you had better get used to “bigger government” and regulation of life.

    It’s hardly a matter anymore of what we prefer. Events take over and have a way of asserting themselves against preferences or human life. A new and different future, no doubt more gloomy, awaits.

    Until we re-experience a rebirth. And so the cycle shall start anew.

    What makes you think, BTW, that the American experiment was bound to last?

  • Doug Hunter

    It’s not just capitalism or the federal government or any one thing. It’s all of it. My interest in being more involved in govenment has been peaked recently. The municipality where I lived passed a law putting more restrictions on property owners and sending notices out to that effect. The problem was that their new ordinance was in violation of state law I was familiar with. I contacted a lawyer and the city was forced to remove the new requirements. The people that worked at the city, especially the city lawyer, were bitter and rude and angry that I had made them uphold the law, really pathetic. Meanwhile, I’m wondering what type of culture in government makes them want to pass laws abridging our freedoms in the first place. I realize my effort is like peeing into a forest fire but it felt good.

    I did get a nasty letter from the code enforcement officer last week, we’ll see who has the last laugh.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It’s all about power, Doug. And those who shouldn’t have it by all reasonable standards of accomplishment or merit, try to usurp it by whatever other means. It is the age of bureaucracy, and it’s been heralded by many thinkers before – Ellul, Foucault, Lyotard – the face of modernity and technological revolution. Foucault spoke of “governance by surveillance,” not of laws but of intrusiveness and rules and regulations.

    All told, it’s an old and never ending story of power struggle, between “the scribes” – and I include here our intellectual elite – and other elements of society. And the scribes – to include the lawyers and their lackeys – have “expertise” on their side. And they’re winning.

  • zingzing

    the only problem with you right wingers is that you’re not even in on your own jokes.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    A fresh voice. Welcome back.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I never used “Archie” that way….

    Nobody ever accused you of that, Roger. I’m talking abouit MY pereceptions of what I see on a page, not your intent.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Only now, once you posted, I realized the association.

  • Doug Hunter

    Yes, just as in my anecdote. When I spoke with the city manager about the issue beforehand he was unreceptive, I was a mere concerned citizen and he was a trained and prepared government official who had the OK from the city lawyer. I had to get a lawyer friend of mine to address the issue in order to stop it. It’s like a winless proposition for us non ‘scribes’. What else is there? Violent overthrow?… Become one of them yourself and you run the risk of losing your principles and becoming part of that which you oppose.

  • zingzing

    i always associated it with this placed called archie mcfee’s, which is at least a pacific northwest thing… they sell cheap novelty items like fake vomit, black gum, fuzzy handcuffs and plastic whips.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I don’t know, Doug, what’s the answer. Just look at most of the bills generated by our legislature. A thousand or so pages on the stimulus bill, an equally lengthy and unreadable document which passes for Obamacare. You need a cast of thousands to get a whiff as to what’s being proposed and passed into law. No question our society has become more complex. But does that complexity justify the present state of affairs.

    I’d say we quickly approaching the Tower of Babel syndrome. Soon enough, none of this will be understandable.

  • zingzing

    roger: “A fresh voice. Welcome back.”

    i don’t suspect it will be for long. even i eventually get sick of purposeless argument that goes nowhere. and as this site has become increasingly right wing (they always were more vocal, but it used to be they weren’t just telling each other ghost stories), i think i’ll go find a more balanced site.

    the shrillness of the right wing, especially their repetitive “freedom, socialism, conspiracy theory” choruses ringing out day and night, has drowned out any possibility of actual discussion. sure, sure, obama may be out to enslave them (but us leftwingers won’t be spared either) and bankrupt the country he’s in charge of and all that, but i’d rather be happy on the way down–if that even is the case rather than just a bunch of paranoid bullshit.

    beyond annoying, it’s just gotten dull around here.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    All artifices, zing, if I be allowed to say.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I have also been out of “circulation” for a stretch, realizing I was only providing the non-thinkers with a stimulus. Once left to their own devices – which is to say, listening to their own echo – they were bound if not to altogether disappear, then at least to fall victim to their own indolence.

    Today is an exception. I needed a diversion, a comic relief, so here I am. And I’m glad you’re a company.

  • http://www.joannehuspek.wordpress.com Joanne Huspek

    It’s interesting to me that many of the “new” radicals were part of the “old” radicals of the late ’60s. There’s the same level of frustration and disenfranchisement (is that a word?) that was felt back then.

    I don’t think people know about the bubbling of rage because most people keep it on the down-low. If you are vocal about disagreeing with the current political tide, you could be labeled a racist, instead of being known for standing on the ground of common sense.

    I know this: lots of angry people will be storming local congressional offices in the next couple of weeks. I hope the “news” media is there to report it.

  • Baronius

    Dave – I’m usually a fan, but this just isn’t a good article. You have a poorly-defined premise, you don’t cite much evidence, you guess at numbers, and you don’t reach a conclusion. A lot of that is due to the nature of the article, which is a speculation that something unmeasured is happening. But given your familiarity with the fringier side of politics, I would have expected more.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I think you’re exaggerating, Joanne. Why should disagreeing with Obama and his policies carry that kind of stigma? And so what if the members of the elect call you such names? Does it matter?

    I just happen to be skeptical about the composition of this sudden, shall I say, religious revival. It’s not a question of whether they oppose Obama or not. I myself have become rather skeptical about the hope and change. But the nature of the opposition, on the birth issue, for example, to me that speaks volumes – about the kind of people they are.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Roger thanks for the link to The God Script. I’ll read that when I go home. It looks very good.

    Here is something you might like. It is about 10 minutes of a video discussion between Noam Chomsky and Michel Foucault that your post reminded me of.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “The tattoo-marks are also described, in the case of Queequeg’s arm, as “an interminable Cretan labyrinth of a figure” (ch. 4, p. 28). This image suggests Melville may be anticipating Borges, and, indeed, the Argentinian weaver of dream-labyrinths has a story called “La escritura del dios “(“The God’s Script,” in El Aleph, 1949), in which the sense of the universe is indecipherably manifested in marks on a body, this time an animal’s. A presumably Aztec priest, incarcerated by the Spanish invaders, is the only inmate of a cell opposite which is a jaguar’s cage. Over the years of his imprisonment, he gradually observes the patterns on the creature’s body (“the black forms which stained the yellow fur” — my translation), finally concluding that they make up a text, “a sentence written by a god.” Meditation on the enigma gradually leads him to awareness of the sense of existence (“I saw the universe and I saw the intimate designs of the universe”), but he refuses to reveal the secret before his death (“I do not pronounce the formula … I allow myself to be forgotten by the days, lying in the darkness”).
    What is striking in both Melville and Borges is that the unrevealed enigma is incarnated in a physical body, whether a human’s or an animal’s: both texts, it may be, suggest to the reader that even if ultimate meaning remains ungraspable, our philosophical systems, partial attempts to make sense of the world must, if they are to succeed even provisionally, start out from our bodies and our material existence — or from what Wordsworth, in “The Prelude,” called “this very world which is the world/Of all of us, the place where in the end/We find our happiness, or not at all!”

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    You might appreciate this little intro, Cindy.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Wow Roger, pretty sure that’s on the wrong thread.

    A lot of that is due to the nature of the article, which is a speculation that something unmeasured is happening. But given your familiarity with the fringier side of politics, I would have expected more.

    Well, it’s part of a series, so perhaps all will become clearer down the road.

    It’s not a question of whether they oppose Obama or not. I myself have become rather skeptical about the hope and change. But the nature of the opposition, on the birth issue, for example, to me that speaks volumes – about the kind of people they are.

    You mean psychos? Certainly some of them are crazy as can be. But what makes it radicalization is that the extreme views are expanding from the crazies to a much broader group.

    Dave

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I was just closing off a side conversation, Dave. Sorry.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Re the last part of #46. I’d say that’s a cause for concern. We don’t want to have a mass movement built on such premises.

  • Baronius

    “as this site has become increasingly right wing…i think i’ll go find a more balanced site.”

    Seriously, zing? Look over the current articles: Glenn, Horace, Realist, et al. Look at the comment threads: by my count, there’ve been 34 comments by left-wingers, 14 right-wing. This site hasn’t been lively, but it’s about the closest thing to balanced you’ll find out there.

  • Clavos

    Nobody ever believes that until they actually go out and look, Baronius.

    Some (not necessarily zing) aren’t really looking for “balance,” they’re looking for kindred souls.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Right thinking and right feeling women and men – to be more precise. To escape the iniquity of evil thinkers and evil doers, who are the scourge.

    There, I fixed it for you.

  • http://www.futonreport.net/ Matthew T. Sussman

    “beyond annoying, it’s just gotten dull around here.”

    My advice? Go read other sections.

  • Irene Wagner

    He’s very BLACK indeed, one of the local leaders (Venable) involved with Continental Congress 2009. He apparently is undeterred by the presence of birthers in the freedom movement.

    I can’t speak for everyone who is feeling angry and disenfranchised right now, Dave Nalle. But I know the Continental Congress 2009 folks are still all about getting the government back PEACEFULLY, just as those who worked TOGETHER in their DIVERSITY in Paul’s rEVOLution were–and their efforts were thwarted by the outside critics who had a problem with that very diversity. From one side: Oh my, there are gays in the movement? From another: Oh my, there are Christians? Democrats AND Republicans are invited to join in.

    Please everybody, don’t slander them (us?) as violent malcontents before those trying to unite Americans for freedom again have even had a chance.

  • http://euchay.blogspot.com Charles Euchay

    I am a newbie to the world of Blogcritics and brought with me all the idealist notion and (I regret to say) naivette that we are in a new era of intelligent and constructive debate of issues, as they affect our nation and, indeed, the world, at large. I also thought that Blogcritics would be a perfect forum where the writers and cotributors share the same ideals, if not my naivette. Having read Dave Nalle’s posts and the comments that followed, I have to say that I am disappointed at the tone of people’s comments. Most of the comments are acerbic, personal and downright insulting. I do not expect total agreement or consensus on every issue but we owe it to ourselves and to the ethics of writing to be tolerant of even those ideas and political points of view that we do not necessarily share while putting forward our opposing views without rancour and odious name calling. I believe that in this democracy that is the USA, there ought to be room enough for all view points and the right to dissent. There should be no place for the sort of name calling and sarcastic comments that I have had the displeasure to read.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    We’re one big happy family, Charles. I know it’s shocking at first. I think you’ll get used to it. It’s not as bad as it seems.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    It’s spreading. Note the appearance of the Obama/Joker poster prominently in Atlanta.

    Dave

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Does it make you happy, Dave? It’s equivalent to anti-Bush cartoons.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Has there ever been anyone as arrogant as Obama in the White House?

    Yes. George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, The Entire Christian Coalition, the Saudi Royal Family, and Texas Oil Billionaires. Oh, I’m sorry. You were just talking Presidents? Well, then George W. Bush it is.

    All of these criminals in DC think when they win an election it’s some kind of mandate! I bet even Al Franken thinks he has a mandate from the people of MN! And he won by what, a little over 200 votes?

    The only mandate inside the Beltway is when a member of Congress or their staffer goes out with a boy toy.

    So those of us that think the govt couldn’t run a laundromat are just bitter old uneducated white guys?

    Yep. They stole the laundromats from the Chinese.

    And a final note. None of these issues will matter in the scheme of things next year. It’ll be the same old tired issues — gay marriage, liberal courts and gays in the military. Ho hum.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    That’s right, Silas, sorry to say. Business as usual.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    Just so I am clear, Charles, you believe in democracy in the USA but not free speech.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    as this site has become increasingly right wing

    Zing, this site has not become any more right wing than it ever was — which is not very as far as articles are concerned. And you or anyone else is welcome to do their best to balance things out with your own condensed thoughts in article format.

    i think i’ll go find a more balanced site.

    Like most of the left I assume for you balance is a code word for everyone agreeing with you. HuffPo is waiting. Have fun in the echo chamber.

    Dave

  • Arch Conservative

    You were right Dave. They’re committed to hold on to their ignorance come hell or high water.

    Despite all the mountain of evidence they’re still getting their collective panties in a bunch when we use the word socialism and lecturing us on the meaning of the word.

    [Gratuitous vulgarity deleted by Comments Editor]

    If King Barry thinks the past couple of weeks have been rough, he aint seen nothing yet. Cap and trade, bank and auto industry takeovers, government run healthcare………..the perfect storm is gathering for the 2010 elections and the moonbats can’t even see it coming.

  • http://marksaleski.com MarkSaleski

    ‘i think i’ll go find a more balanced site.’

    Like most of the left I assume for you balance is a code word for everyone agreeing with you. HuffPo is waiting. Have fun in the echo chamber.

    actually, it would be nice to find a site where people didn’t so love attaching stereotypes to groups of people…that would be nice.

    also one where the ‘articles’ weren’t full of made up stuff presented as fact.

    it’s all so tired. especially when the author is called on this and rationalizes it. oh sure, another article is forthcoming. right.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Arch’s favourite new word, “moonbats,” is deliciously ironic coming from him.

    The only thing a Republican president or leader tells us is that America is still filled with people that refuse to progress with the rest of society and still filled with people who prefer to let paranoia and fear be their guides through life.

    It’s unfortunate that you guys are proving to the rest of the world that you can’t even handle a black president without wondering if he’s really an American and branding him an outsider.

    What a fucking joke.

  • Arch Conservative

    Hey Jordan please show me where I ever said anything about the validity of Obama’s presidency because of his birth? [Gratuitous vulgarity deleted by Comments Editor]

    Typical leftist [edited], defining progress as the capitulation of the American people to every whim and desire of every federal government agent. Can’t engage in debate on the substance of the issues because you’d lose so you have to resort to baselessly calling your opponents racist.

    You’re the joke.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Arch, the only thing directed at you in my comment had your name on it (hint: the first sentence). The rest of the comment was pretty general.

    And if you’re switching from moonbat to pinhead, I think you might owe O’Reilly some money.

    Can’t engage in debate on the substance of the issues

    What was the substance of the issue? That the GOP will be back in power before “King Barry” and the moonbats know it, right? Where’s the substance to that? What factual basis do you have beyond your own moonshine-drinking nonsense?

    You show me the substance, I’ll show you a debate.

  • Jordan Richardson

    defining progress as the capitulation of the American people to every whim and desire of every federal government agent.

    Actually, I merely define progress as forward momentum.

    Y’know, maybe more than two political parties to give the people actual choice? Perhaps the possibility of other economic policies and social cultures making their way to the discussion table without the fear music sounding? Health care for everyone like every other industrialized country in the damn world? A government that doesn’t particularly care about sexual preferences? Maybe less war and violence as the status quo? Some compassion for the poor as opposed to a cycle of blame and shame? Equality for all genders and races once and for all? Corporations defined properly and treated accordingly (they’re not “people”)? Less rigid clinging to a Constitution that doesn’t address numerous modern issues? Less arrogance and ego in terms of foreign policy?

    Does desiring those things from my lovely neighbour to the South make me a leftist? You have no idea how Left I am, my friend.

  • Jordan Richardson

    One more thing before I get back to my life:

    Arch, you’re 32, right?

  • Ruvy

    you can’t even handle a black president without wondering if he’s really an American and branding him an outsider.

    Jordan,

    Maybe, Bing (a.k.a. “Archie”) doesn’t want to go through the door you so kindly opened, but I will – happily.

    But first a statement that is necessary to make here. It is a good thing that Americans elected what they perceived to be a black man. By doing so, they have shed much of the stigma of racism that has stuck to them due to the enslavement of blacks for centuries in the New World, and the treatment of “freed” blacks as less than even second class citizens. This is progress. And it is to be applauded – loudly.

    It would have been nice if the black man had been native born, and a citizen. I do not believe that Obama is either.

    Obama is indeed an African-American, a real African-American, a citizen of Kenya, born in Kenya to a Kenyan father and an American mother.

    Before you whine, “another birther with more bullshit”, read the article from the World Net Daily from 4 August, and carefully examine the document presented therein. It’s a birth cerificate, boys and girls, a real birth certificate, the Kenyan version of what Americans would call a “long form birth certificate” certified by an official of the Coastal Province of the country. Actually what you see is a certified copy of the original birth certificate – not some garbage of a fake diocument like the one released by the State of Hawaii.

    I don’t have the money to interview Joe Farrah for BC – the phone expense would be too much for me. But lots of you in the States can. A great interview opportunity for you all Stateside.

    Let’s cut straight to the issue here, folks, and ram this down your stubborn denial-eating and denial-spewing throats.

    This is not an issue of whining because the wrong man won. Not for me. I wanted Obama and still want him in the White House because he is an open enemy of Israel and is doing whatever he can to undermine its existence. For me, he is the best thing since sliced bread because he rips the tissue of “friendship” from the America-Israel relationship and exposes it for the bullying imperialism it really is.

    NO!

    This is an issue of violating your constitution and getting away with it. Richard “Tricky Dick” Nixon rises to be a giant of a man compared to this scum from the Chicago thief-works. Nixon at least obeyed the law in the end – unlike this arrogant bastard who thinks he is above the law.

    And I’m making a prediction here, one you can hold me to. This issue – the issue of Obama’s birth – will finally be the issue that prompts Obama to drop the façade of democracy in your country, and introduce a dictatorship. Why? Because this is the issue that will determine whether Obama belongs in the White House – or in jail for fraud.

  • Jordan Richardson

    a real birth certificate

    No, it isn’t.

    Carefully examining would be a good idea, Ruvy. Start with the fact that Mombasa was not a part of Kenya in 1961 but a part of Zanzibar. Continue with the fact that Kenya wasn’t a Republic when the document was “issued.” There’s more, but those two errors alone make for some interesting problems in considering the veracity of the document.

    Of course, if you want to really believe Orly Taits (dentist, lawyer, real estate agent extraordinaire), you go right ahead. I can think of no better character on which to hedge your ridiculous philosophy of an Obama-led dictatorship.

    Don’t forget, WorldNetDaily also told us that Wikipedia said Obama was born in Kenya. Must be true, right?

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Ruvy’s zeal would be vaguely credible if it wasn’t for the fact that he routinely tells people not in Israel to stay out of its business but can’t return the favour OR that he sees President Obama as Jew hating when he hasn’t said a single word to indicate that he is.

    Or that he has mystical biscuits for breakfast every morning that make him incapable of logic or even reason…

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Actually, I merely define progress as forward momentum.

    Like the movement of the conveyor belt in a slaughter house.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle


    It’s unfortunate that you guys are proving to the rest of the world that you can’t even handle a black president without wondering if he’s really an American and branding him an outsider.

    Who is “you guys”, because I’m the only person on here to write an article on the subject and it was opposing the conspiracy theory. As for comments, the only notable commenters who think Obama was born outside the US also live outside the US.

    Try again.

    Dave

  • zingzing

    dave: “Like most of the left I assume for you balance is a code word for everyone agreeing with you. HuffPo is waiting. Have fun in the echo chamber.”

    actually, when i go to other sites, it’s not left wing sites like huffington (which i have almost never been to except when linked through here). i usually go to right wing sites (far more right than this) and have my fun. i’m looking for the opposite of your “echo chamber” sometimes, but i come here for something more balanced, with a little more to do than just shoot at fish who don’t care if they’re being shot, or care so much they call “me” a “left wing fag” or something like that.

    my problem is that, lately, the difference between sites like that and sites like this seems to be dwindling, with the above-mentioned choruses “freedom” and “socialism” and “conspiracy.” it’s like the right wing has become one big echo chamber, with the same words and messages bouncing around to the point that it becomes one big blaring ball of feedback.

    i know this is a bit different from what i said above, but since yesterday i’ve tried to figure out what’s been annoying me about the site lately. and i think i’ve hit it. i find myself saying the same things, scoffing, becoming bored with it all. i’m my own little private echo chamber, just bouncing sound off the right wing echo chamber, and because of the monolithic nature of one argument, the response is equally monolithic and i’m just as much to blame as anyone.

    that said, i also read something today that i think nailed something as well: “on 1/20/09, at around 12:04 pm, the nation’s conservative talk-show hosts once again became the voice of the resistance. many of them had spent eight years grappling with the vexing presidency of george w. bush, so when barack obama was sworn in they suddenly found themselves freed from the inhibiting effects of ambivalence.”

    maybe that’s it. maybe it’s more fun to talk national politics when you’re the underdog.

    maybe it’s that a majority of obama’s programs haven’t yet bared fruit, good or evil. maybe it’s that i’m still in the “benefit of doubt” stage of acceptance of programs i don’t necessarily agree with.

    i can still argue things like abortion, guns, etc, when they come up in new contexts. but the echo chamber sounds of “obama wants to destroy america” and “you don’t like freedom” is getting me down, because there really isn’t much different about the context at this point.

  • Ruvy

    Jordan,

    According to the map linked to, Mombasa is rougly 80 kms from the norhern island of Zanzibar.
    Start with the fact that Mombasa was not a part of Kenya in 1961 but a part of Zanzibar.

    Would you mind telling me when it was that control of Mombasa was transferred from Zanzibar to Kenya?

    Kenya wasn’t a Republic when the document was “issued.” The document is a facsimile of the original issued in 1961. But the document is from 1964, when Kenya was a Republic, and when Zanzibar had presumably ceded control of Mombasa to Kenya. Examining this website, which is reasonably detailed, does not make clear when the Sultan of Zanzibar actually ceded control of Mombasa and the coast southwards to Tanganyika to the Colony of Kenya. From what I’ve been able to infer, it took place beforfe the independence of Zanzibar from Great Britain, and before the overthrow of the Sultan there.

    When you look at the top of the document, it says, District of Mombasa. This could either be the designation of the Sultanate of Zanzibar, or a sub-division of the Coastal Province of Kenya.

    Sorry, Jordan. You will have to be a bit more detailed in your data to convince me that this is not the real thing.

    At the very least, in my opinion, it is a facsimile of a birth certificate originating in the District of Mombasa in 1961 – whether under Kenyan or Zanzibar’s rule – which was certified by an official of the Kenyan government in 1964 – presumably to clear up what country the young Obama was actually a citizen of.

  • Zozobra

    The Kenya connection is clear proof that Obama is a secret Rastaman. He will take over US agriculture twisting it to the ends of the Great Ganga Conspiracy.

    You fools are doomed!

    Z

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I recently heard someone ask him about legalizing pot and he said NO WAY!

  • Zozobra

    See that? Proof that He’s a liar!

    Doomed!

    Z

  • Clavos

    It’s unfortunate that you guys are proving to the rest of the world that you can’t even handle a black president…

    Typical leftist smear. Anyone on the right opposed to him is opposed because he’s black.

    You have no credibility, Jordan, you’re every bit the hack you accuse Dave of being

  • Ruvy

    See, Jordan?

    If you can’t give an intelligent answer to a clear question, the clowns move in.

    Gimme Ganja!

  • http://marksaleski.com MarkSaleski

    You have no credibility, Jordan, you’re every bit the hack you accuse Dave of being

    yet another classy comment from the blogcritics editorial staff.

    thanx technorati!!!

  • Zozobra

    “the clowns move in.”

    Drawn by hopelessness, depression, and despair, this site is a natural strange attractor.

    Don’t get me started on how totally doomed the Middle East is. Oi(nk)!

    Z

  • Ruvy

    See, boys and girls, the reason this business of Obama’s birth is so important is because he is making such a stink of hiding the truth. Either he should cough up that long form – by pulling it out of a file, or if it got lost, paying $150 or so for expedited treatment from the State of Hawaii – or admit that he is a fraud.

    Obama’s behavior here is that of a con artist very afraid he’ll get caught. He has spent more money than I have earned in several decades to perevent the average American from seeing a document we all have to present to get our first American passport!

    That smells and smells bad. You have to ask the question “why?” If you haven’t got the guts to ask that question, you do not deserve whatever freedom you may have. You are too stupid and too cowardly to deserve it!

    Remember, I want this guy in the White House. He is far better than some “conservative” Republican who would glad-hand, butter up and lie through his teeth that America is an ally of Israel – while twisting the knife in our country out of sight. So, Obama serves my purposes – at least until he serves the purpose of radicalizing the Jewish population here against the American imperialist government trying to ruin this nation. Afterwards, I don’t care what happens to him.

    From all appearances, you Americans are the ones suffering most from his continued presence there. You, not I, should be outraged and either demand the long form birth certificate from the State of Hawaii – or demand Obama’s removal and imprisonment for fraud. Of course, admitting you were played for suckers hurts, too.

    I’m still waiting for the answer to my question, Jordan.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #74

    zing, you hit the nail on the head. It’s not the ideas you may or may not agree with but lack of imagination. I, too, found myself hammering the same old points, to no avail of course, and it gets to be boring. If there was some freshness in the conservative thought and, more openly perhaps, openness to thinking and a reasonable debate, I wouldn’t mind it so much, because we are supposed to learn from those who disagree with us. But no, it’s just like hitting against the same old wall. Who the fuck needs it! So my strategy has been of late to disengage – let the fuckers talk to themselves! And you know, believe it or not, they get tired of their own crap. Trust me, for nearly ten days I was off – except for selected messages to Cindy and Mark – the Politics site was near dead on all the threads. And so I say to myself: why encourage the fuckers and stimulate their dull brains? Let them die of attrition.

    Yesterday was an exception and I was engaged – Rose will say because I have nothing better to do, and for a stretch, he was right (I was insane trying to make more out of BC than it is) because I skipped by two-hour morning workout and consequently got bogged down here; but I am going to make another strategic withdrawal for a stretch and post selected comments here and there to those people who warrant it. So after I respond to the few comments from yesterday, adios amigo, until a better time.

  • Ruvy

    Don’t get me started on how totally doomed the Middle East is. Oi(nk)!

    Hey Zozobra, come on over to my article on how a betrayed American analyst calls the FBI “anti-Semitic”. That’s a great place to discuss your ideas!

    Who knows? We might actually agree!

  • zingzing

    roger: “If there was some freshness in the conservative thought and, more openly perhaps, openness to thinking and a reasonable debate, I wouldn’t mind it so much, because we are supposed to learn from those who disagree with us.”

    part of my point, though, is that it’s as much our fault as it is theirs. and it’s also got something to do with roles/leadership being switched up. and because he hasn’t been in office long enough for the longer term effects of his actions to be known. so it’s all speculation. and that’s not as much fun to shout about as war is.

  • Lumpy

    It is not the purpose of conservative. Thought to be “fresh” but to be true to fundamental principles. And contrary to what some would have us believe the basic princiles of what is good government have not changed and change for it’s own sake is not inherently good.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I am not certain I agree. It’s certainly more difficult to be imaginative about the present situation (than about such clear-cut issues as the war). But that’s where the challenge is.

    We are undergoing a period of tremendous social change – as a people, a polity, our position and role in the world. Once the transformation becomes more or less apparent, it won’t be like anything we’ve seen before. There’s plenty about the present programs and the Democrat agenda which ought to be subject to intelligent debate; and I’m not certain I agree with all the moves being made – part of the reason being we can’t tell yet whither it will all lead. And this is the difficulty and the challenge – sort of projecting and imagining the future on the basis of the present.

    So there’s definitely plenty of material to be exercised about – in a right kind of way. But not by rabid partisanship on either side.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Then it’s a doomed philosophy, Lumpy, because change is inevitable and not adopting to it leads to stagnation. Besides, I’m certain that some of higher lights and proponents of conservative thinking would disagree with your characterization.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Is some of the ‘spontaneous anger’ we’re seeing actually just fake theatrics? As Rachel Maddow calls it, “orchestrated hooliganism and intimidation” — not individual citizens exercising their free speech rights, but rehearsed groups recruited by corporate lobbyists and talk-radio hypemeisters?

    I’m referring specifically to the loud hecklers showing up at [mostly] Democratic Congressmen’s town meetings in their districts regarding health care.

    These folks are not interested in ‘discussing’ health care — only in shouting down the congressperson, causing a disruption that will get videotaped and shown on TV — as several were last night.

    Michelle Malkin ‘predicted’ on Sunday that we would see these ‘spontaneous’ outbursts of citizen outrage. Hmm, wonder where she got her info?

    There’s almost certainly some real seething going on out there — although even Dave admits it’s difficult to define what the grievances are beyond fuzzy objections to government spending. And his estimates that this involves 20% of the population now, and will become something more definitive when it reaches 30% — well this is just completely speculative guesswork.

    But as with the Tea Parties held earlier this year, there is a lot of hot air involved and the actual number of participants small [but loud].

    I worry that cable-news outlets like MSNBC — both Chris Matthews and Maddow gave heavy coverage to the town meeting shoutdowns and have also given way too much air time to ‘birthers’ — may end up helping turn this fakery into something like an actual “movement” by giving it more attention than it actually merits.

  • http://euchay.blogspot.com Charles Euchay

    El Bicho, my comment is very clear, even if that seems lost on you. Yes, I am for both democracy and free speech. And the two are by no means mutually exclusive. Surely, you’ll agree that one man’s free speech is another’s barbs of invectives being thrown at him. There has to be a balance between free speech and slander, insult and defamation of character.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Is some of the ‘spontaneous anger’ we’re seeing actually just fake theatrics? As Rachel Maddow calls it, “orchestrated hooliganism and intimidation” — not individual citizens exercising their free speech rights, but rehearsed groups recruited by corporate lobbyists and talk-radio hypemeisters?

    This is certainly the smear they tried to use on the tea parties. It’s an effective but completely baseless tactic. I know the people involved in these protests. They are probably MORE anti-corporate than most democrats and they think that the groups accused of astroturfing these events work for the NWO. If Maddow who is one of the leading propagandists spreading this deception, were to actually TALK to some of these people on her supposed talk show where she mostly just bloviates in ignorance, she would realize that they are much more genuine and grassroots than she imagines.

    I’m referring specifically to the loud hecklers showing up at [mostly] Democratic Congressmen’s town meetings in their districts regarding health care.

    One of the main targets of this was my congressman. He deserves it. After the protest he basically blew off all the questions he’d been asked and said he didn’t care what his constituents believed and would do what he wanted in Congress. He’s scum.

    These folks are not interested in ‘discussing’ health care — only in shouting down the congressperson, causing a disruption that will get videotaped and shown on TV — as several were last night.

    Exposure lets them get their message out. This is always the way it is and will be with protestors.

    Michelle Malkin ‘predicted’ on Sunday that we would see these ‘spontaneous’ outbursts of citizen outrage. Hmm, wonder where she got her info?

    I predicted it in this article and I got my info from talking to the people who were at the protests, and most of them are not particularly Republican and they certainly aren’t shills as you and others are suggesting.

    There’s almost certainly some real seething going on out there — although even Dave admits it’s difficult to define what the grievances are beyond fuzzy objections to government spending. And his estimates that this involves 20% of the population now, and will become something more definitive when it reaches 30% — well this is just completely speculative guesswork.

    I prefer my informed guesswork to the calculated talking points and deliberate misrepresentation which you’re promoting here.

    But as with the Tea Parties held earlier this year, there is a lot of hot air involved and the actual number of participants small [but loud].

    You really ought to inform yourself on the numbers of people who were involved in some of those protests.

    I worry that cable-news outlets like MSNBC — both Chris Matthews and Maddow gave heavy coverage to the town meeting shoutdowns and have also given way too much air time to ‘birthers’ — may end up helping turn this fakery into something like an actual “movement” by giving it more attention than it actually merits.

    I wouldn’t say it’s fakery, but I have heard a direct admission from one of the biggest promoters of the “birther” thing that the only reason they’re pursuing it is that it gets media coverage when their more serious complaints and issues do not. That’s a sad commentary on the media.

    Dave

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Do you have any links, Handy, to these “events”?

    I would suspect you’re right in the second instance – theatrics. But what else could one expect of a people whose only vocal objection to Obama presidency has to do with birthplace?

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    my problem is that, lately, the difference between sites like that and sites like this seems to be dwindling, with the above-mentioned choruses “freedom” and “socialism” and “conspiracy.” it’s like the right wing has become one big echo chamber, with the same words and messages bouncing around to the point that it becomes one big blaring ball of feedback.

    That you perceive this is part of the new radicalism I’m talking about in this and other articles. Current events have pushed more and more people on the right, from relative moderates to the most extreme independents together into an area of common ground in opposition to the administration. That makes their interests and concerns more similar and eliminates some of the more unorthodox voices as those people also join in the general chorus for sanity.

    i’m my own little private echo chamber, just bouncing sound off the right wing echo chamber, and because of the monolithic nature of one argument, the response is equally monolithic and i’m just as much to blame as anyone.

    Isn’t this because of the fundamental nature of the questions with which we’re wrestling? It’s come down to whether we want America to be free and Americans as individuals to run their own lives, or whether we want to expand the state and sacrifice our liberties for the security it offers. That’s such a fundamental difference of opinion — even if you characterize your side more charitably — that you’re not going to see a lot of budging.

    that said, i also read something today that i think nailed something as well: “on 1/20/09, at around 12:04 pm, the nation’s conservative talk-show hosts once again became the voice of the resistance. many of them had spent eight years grappling with the vexing presidency of george w. bush, so when barack obama was sworn in they suddenly found themselves freed from the inhibiting effects of ambivalence.”

    No question about that. It’s much more enjoyable to be a rabble rouser than an apologist.

    maybe it’s that a majority of obama’s programs haven’t yet bared fruit, good or evil. maybe it’s that i’m still in the “benefit of doubt” stage of acceptance of programs i don’t necessarily agree with.

    Then there’s still hope for you. Like many of us when you realize how devastating the impact of this administrations policies will be for you and those you care about you may come around.

    i can still argue things like abortion, guns, etc, when they come up in new contexts.

    What I like about the current environment is that we have largely stopped arguing over these secondary issues and are concentrating on principles.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Roger, there you go trying to trivialize this movement. That’s why I think the birther thing is such a terrible idea. It gives people a way to trivialize and dismiss real concerns on the basis of one stupid argument.

    As for examples of the protests, look for my next article which will be jam-packed with video.

    Dave

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Maddow presented documentation that corporate lobbying firms were behind the town meeting sabotage. This includes Dick Armey’s lobbying company, and there was a suggested script for these “protesters” [they are not worthy of the term] to use.

    I assume your congressman, Lloyd Doggett, also has a substantial number of supporters, since he did get reelected less than a year ago. Do the “protesters” represent the actual sentiment of most voters in your district? Or do they represent what people like you and Dick Armey would prefer the sentiment to be?

    Did you listen to the videotape of the town meetings? There are no real questions. Just shouting Doggett down when he tries to speak. This is understandably frustrating to him.

    It’s also anti-democratic [small d], not genuine ‘democracy in action.’

    Let me add that if pro-insurance-industry lobbyists are behind the townhall meeting shenanigans, that doesn’t mean they are behind birthers or the nascent ‘movement’ described in your article. Instead they may be exploiting real but unfocused anger for their own purposes on this particular issue.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    OK, Dave. You’re right in that the birther thing is the worst thing they could wish for themselves. So let’s wait and see.

    I’ve already expressed my general reasons for skepticism – it has got to do with the profile of this group as such: an angry, dispossessed white male. It even sounds funny. (I’m also skeptical of the 2009 Congress Irene talked about: too little and too late to turn essentially Wall-Mart consumers into political activism.)

    But as I said, shall see. I’ll try to keep an open mind.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    “It’s much more enjoyable to be a rabble rouser than an apologist.”

    Mr. Nalle’s most sincere, astute and self-revealing statement in weeks [at least].

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I presume you referred to my district, Handy. If so, I’ll check it out and perhaps get in on one of those town meetings to see for myself.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    No, Roger, I was referring to Dave’s district, see his long answer to my comment earlier.

    I see that the ‘scum’ Lloyd Doggett only got 65.8% of the vote in the 2008 election [his 8th term].

    He is one of the most liberal Congressmen in the history of Texas. Must drive Dave bonkers.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I did figure that out by rereading the thread. I will check though whether we have anything of the sort in my neck of the woods.

  • zingzing

    dave: “Then there’s still hope for you. Like many of us when you realize how devastating the impact of this administrations policies will be for you and those you care about you may come around.”

    well, that is a possibility, but i’m not going to tie my truck to it, mr. “mccain will win.”

    “That makes their interests and concerns more similar and eliminates some of the more unorthodox voices as those people also join in the general chorus for sanity.”

    or maybe you’re part of the fringe gathering in on itself for safety. and i don’t think that the “more unorthodox voices” have been eliminated from your crowd… it’s more like you’ve taken on aspects of their lunacy.

    “Isn’t this because of the fundamental nature of the questions with which we’re wrestling? ”

    no, it’s because it’s all been reduced to catch phrases.

    “What I like about the current environment is that we have largely stopped arguing over these secondary issues and are concentrating on principles.”

    well, i think those secondary issues reveal more about principles than “he’s a socialist” does. unless yelling “freedom!” is the most principled thing you can do.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Zing, you are priceless. Please don’t desert us!

  • Clavos

    priceless is the word, alright…

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Hey now. Zing is the wittiest comeback artist on here. Since you yourself so love to make smartass retorts, you should appreciate them from others, even if you disagree with the point of view expressed.

  • Lumpy

    I like lame witty comeback zing marginally better than flaccid leftist puppet zing.

  • Baronius

    Neither side is going to be stunningly original. They are built on specific ideologies. They’re going to get predictable, and boring.

    The individuals who comment here can remain interesting, because few of us represent a pure ideology. Even then, we each have our particular interests and specialties. The exception that proves the rule is Dave. Although I ripped on this article, Dave will write about anything from Uighurs to gargoyles, and we’re lucky to have him.

    The articles from the (approximately) right may seem predictable lately because we’re not hearing anything from Panama.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    That’s predictable too, Baronius.

  • Clavos

    That’s predictable too, Baronius.

    How so?

  • Clavos

    handy,

    Since you yourself so love to make smartass retorts, you should appreciate them from others

    Note my ambiguity…

    (something for everyone)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    The tailor from Panama has been trained in Hong Kong – only at second remove from the English masters. It’s gonna be a decent suit.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Let’s cheer for the release of the two journalists.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    Charles, your comment was clear. It reveals you may be rather new to the internet and feel somehow everyone must bow to your sensibilities. Rather ridiculous.

  • zingzing

    yay #112

  • Arch Conservative

    Let me get this straight.

    Moonbats are getting mad because a couple of people at these are acting like moonbats, but moonbats on the right?

    Obviously none of the left wing moonbats on this thread viewed the videos I linked to earlier or else they wouldn’t be claiming that these aren’t real people expressing themselves at the town halls.

    If you moonbats and obama cultists want to keep beating your heads against the wall in spite of reality( cap and trade is dead, barry’s poll numbers are dropping daily, and government takeover of healthcare is all but dead) then be my guest.

  • zingzing

    muah, archie. hypocrisy is hard to see on your end, even in 20-20, eh?

    you got mad when we protested (and whooped ass in the next couple of elections, despite your proclamations of morman rule). “we” get mad (as if we’re writing these articles, jajaja), and then you go off that we’re getting mad?

    nah.

    and if you think you’ve won on all of the above (most of which i don’t care about), why are you protesting so loudly?

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Moonbats are getting mad because a couple of people at these are acting like moonbats, but moonbats on the right?

    No, because the moonbats on the right have the collective intelligence of a lemming and follow the voices in their heads.

    Obviously none of the left wing moonbats on this thread viewed the videos I linked to earlier or else they wouldn’t be claiming that these aren’t real people expressing themselves at the town halls.

    Oh please. They’re gathered up like robots to do the bidding of the Far Right. If they were given a proper education, they’d have a better understanding of what’s at stake.

    If you moonbats and obama cultists want to keep beating your heads against the wall in spite of reality( cap and trade is dead, barry’s poll numbers are dropping daily, and government takeover of healthcare is all but dead) then be my guest.

    I agree on all points and therein lies the tragedy. Cap and trade should die — it’s baloney. Barack Obama’s numbers are dropping because the American public has a short attention span and demands instant gratification. Government takeover of health care as opposed to the current system? I’ll take the government health care, pal. This country ranks near the bottom on life span and return for the dollar on medical spending. We spend the most on medicine and get the least return. Like it or not, it’s time to put civility and morality in its’ place — starting with health care. There are industries which should not be for profit so that capitalism can thrive.

  • zingzing

    let it flow.

    i was there, in 1988, when epmd said it best.

  • Bliffle

    Sounds like Dave has suddenly Got Religion. Whereas he was so sanguine about War Spending by Bush, saying it was ‘only’ such and so percent of GDP, etc., and seemingly not alarmed at Bush increasing the National Debt by $4.5 trillion, now, with a lousy $900billion spent on The Stimulus Plan in the face of the biggest recession since the Great Depression, Dave is suddenly shouting “stop the insanity!”

    It’s getting hard to take Dave seriously.

  • Clavos

    If they were given a proper education

    Not possible. They’re Americans, they were educated in government schools.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Sounds like Dave has suddenly Got Religion. Whereas he was so sanguine about War Spending by Bush, saying it was ‘only’ such and so percent of GDP, etc.,

    Sometimes I play devil’s advocate, Bliffle. With so many on the left hammering that issue irrationally, I thought it necessary to put it in perspective. I’ve also written rationally about that excessive spending several times.

    and seemingly not alarmed at Bush increasing the National Debt by $4.5 trillion,

    Except for a whole series of articles like the ones I wrote every year since 2005 criticizing the bloated Bush budgets or the one I wrote specifically criticizing his medicaid prescription drug plan, or the several articles I wrote against the Bush stimulus. And hey, I wrote a nice article opposing the war in Iraq on fiscal grounds among others. Selective memory much?

    now, with a lousy $900billion spent on The Stimulus Plan in the face of the biggest recession since the Great Depression, Dave is suddenly shouting “stop the insanity!”

    I’ve been saying it all along. It just took you a while to notice. And BTW, excusing Obama’s spending because of Bush’s equally bad spending is the worst kind of doublethink.

    It’s getting hard to take Dave seriously.

    Because then you’d have to question your delusional view of reality.

    Dave

  • Arch Conservative

    No, because the moonbats on the right have the collective intelligence of a lemming and follow the voices in their heads.

    Oh but the moonbats on the left that were showing up for the antiwar rallies were some type geniuses right? please….if you look any longer than three seconds you’ll find idiots on both extremes.

    The are also however legitimate dissenters on both the left and right. people on either side that are much closer to the 50 yard line in terms of politics and general sanity.

    The difference is those reasonable people of the conservative bent are being labelled radical rabble rousers by the media. When you have Keith olbermann (biggest douchebag in the media) calling little old men who served in ww2 korea and vietnam and who are expressing their concerns that their VA care is subpar and the feeling the last thing they want or need is more government run healthcare corporate shills….then we have a fucking problem.

    Keith Olbermann, Racheal Maddow, the NYT times and the rest of the left wing gestapo media should all die and rot in hell for they way they are treating these people. The vast majority of the people at the town halls are not paid insurance lobbyists or anything of the sort. they are real American citizens who are pissed off and they have every right in the world to express their anger whether Oblermann Maddow or anyone else at Obama’s Ministry of Public Enlightenment or Propaganda approves.

    Again here are two video links………… I dare anyone of you Obama apologizers to watch it and tell me that these are just shills for the insurance industry who don’t really care about our healthcare system. I f-ing dare you… [Edited]

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I, too, found myself hammering the same old points, to no avail of course, and it gets to be boring. If there was some freshness in the conservative thought

    Does this sentence make sence to anyone BUT roger? You pound the same old points because you have no freshness in YOUR thoughts either!

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I love you liberals…if someone is protesting talking points that you agree with, it’s all on the up and up, but when groups get together and protest something you WANT, something for FREE, then that group must be a bunch of corporate shills.

    No way that the American people would rise up against something you think is good for us.

    You folks, like Jordan, from Canada, that like your govt run health care system, well all I can say is good on ya! Stay there! And for those of you that want Jordans’ country’s version of health care, our borders are still open…carry your ass!

    There’s a reason that the founders of OUR country stayed Jordan and yours ran north…your forefathers didn’t want the same rights and responsibilities that ours did for the people. Your forefathers wanted to remain under the kings rule and they did. Ours saw a little different path. A path where honest men and women make a living for THEMSELVES and don’t rely on the govt for every little thing they need.

    Now all you liberals are trying to put our country on a path to European style politics and govt, well, I’m here to tell you that there are plenty of us that don’t want it!

    And if you expect anyone that leans any amount to the right to believe anything you say than you had better stop using Rachel Maddow and Keith Olbermann as your news sources! You’d have better luck using the guys from the comedy channel…Cobert or…damn..can’t think of his name…and he’s a Jersey boy too!

  • Jordan Richardson

    Interesting version of history, Andy. Our founders “ran North,” did they? Can you elaborate on that or would you like me to clarify?

    I find it interesting, too, that you’re willing to essentially insult every country on the planet besides your own in your quest to prove your own arrogant philosophy. People who receive government help, who have government programs, do not “rely on the government for every little thing they need” and they (we) sure as hell “making a living for ourselves.” What arrogance to suggest you Americans have a monopoly on independence!

    Further to that, if you’re so anti-government, I suggest you just get rid of it all, Andy. Go on. Do it.

    You better not use public transportation of any kind or drive on any roads that are privately-paved for your convenience. And don’t even think of calling the police or the fire department (unless they’re your own private security firm). I’d hate to have you relying on the government for every little thing like we all do, Andy. That would mean you weren’t independent in the least and that, well shoot, that’d be just hell on earth wouldn’t it?

    Us “folks” in Canada love our health care system, but it’s not perfect and we’d love it to be more European in implementation and construct. Amazingly, we’d rather have a system that worked for all Canadians and allowed us to be healthy and happy rather than some jaded conception of “independence” or some false conception of “self-reliance” that you Americans take so seriously. In Canada, we don’t worship our government like you do in the U.S. And we don’t bitch and moan for years until our favourite political party takes office, either.

    You cry and piss and whine about politics more than I ever could, Andy, and you know it. Why the hell do you think I spend so much time talking about shit in your country? Because there’s nothing to talk about in mine! My government is something I’m generally indifferent to. I don’t have shit to do with them, they aren’t looking over my shoulder when they organize the PUBLIC funds for health care. And tell me how it’s government-run and how we’re all so reliant on Stephen Harper and Co. when we’re paying for it through our taxes? How’s that work?

    You’re always against people getting something for nothing. Why is that? Why should people have to pay to have their basic needs met? Why should there always be a profit component involved, Andy? Why should you be able to put one price tag on grandma’s kidney and another price tag on some little kid’s cancer treatment? And when they want health care, will you be the one to tell them to go fuck themselves or would you rather the insurance company handled the job for you?

  • Jordan Richardson

    drive on any roads that are privately-paved for your convenience

    *aren’t

  • Clavos

    Why should people have to pay to have their basic needs met?

    Because everybody has to pay, there are no free lunches. If the government is “paying,” it is paying with money it took by coercion from the workers and/or corporations.

    Why should there always be a profit component involved…

    Because without profit, there’s no motivation to produce, to innovate, to progress and improve.

    The government (any government) has no money. It makes nothing, sells nothing — it’s not a producer and so has no income other than that which it takes by force from the people, who are the producers. When the government “pays” for something, it really isn’t — it’s merely a conduit for transfer payments. If Jordan gets “free” medical treatment from the government, it’s paying for that treatment with money it took from handyguy and Baritone.

    When I work, I expect to be paid — I don’t work for nothing. Likewise, why would a company make MRIs, if there were no opportunity to make money doing so?

  • Jordan Richardson

    Because everybody has to pay, there are no free lunches.

    So what price tag would you put on water? When corporations head into Third World countries to tag water supplies and charge money for what comes out, how do you recommend we set the prices to prevent those people from getting the dreaded “free lunch?” And who decided that there were no free lunches?

    Because without profit, there’s no motivation to produce, to innovate, to progress and improve.

    Not necessarily true. You could produce, innovate and progress for the sake of community and for the sake of compassion for society. You do your best because it’s your desire to help your neighbour and your community.

    Idealistic? Hell to the yeah it is.

    If Jordan gets “free” medical treatment from the government, it’s paying for that treatment with money it took from handyguy and Baritone.

    When I was raised, I was told it was a good idea to share. That it was the best idea, in fact. I have no problem, to be perfectly honest, in paying for somebody else’s surgery or health care in my country. It’s something most of us Canadians do as a point of respect and compassion for our fellow Canucks. We take care of each other, sometimes shockingly even prioritizing other people before ourselves.

    Obviously I get why profit is a motivator in our modern world. I’m more or less suggesting that this needn’t be the case, but greed and lack of compassion generally dictate that if there’s a profit to be made off of virtually anything (how long until we charge $$$ for oxygen?), then it will be so.

    The answer to my question of why people should have to pay to have their needs met is simple: because that’s the way it is. I know this.

  • Clavos

    You could produce, innovate and progress for the sake of community and for the sake of compassion for society.

    Naive beyond reason.

    What is the reason we even HAVE all that sophisticated equipment and staffing to provide the medical care? Because people have worked for PROFIT to produce it.

    You do your best because it’s your desire to help your neighbour and your community.

    All well and good. How do I eat? Pay rent? Buy my clothes?

    Oh, I forgot, the farmer will give me his produce because “it’s his desire to help his neighbour and his community.”

    My landlord also will let me live rent free, because “it’s his desire to help his neighbour and his community.”

    And the clothing store owner will give me his merchandise because…you get the point.

  • Clavos

    in fact. I have no problem, to be perfectly honest, in paying for somebody else’s surgery or health care in my country…

    Where do you get the money to do so, Jordan?

    Aren’t you working just “because it’s your desire to help your neighbour and your community?”

    C’mon Jordan.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Ain’t those the same old points, Andy? You with your dog-eat-dog attitude and Clavos becoming intolerably ideological in his old age. And there is no middle ground.

    You try to think outside the box for a change and then talk to me about freshness of thought.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Clavos,

    You’re basically taking my idealism and asking questions based on its practicality in the world we live in now. I already covered that it is merely idealistic to think in such a bizarre way and I also mentioned that I realize fully that profit is, of course, the motivation.

    While I appreciate the lesson, it’s not really even remotely close to the point I was making in the original context. Cherrypicking bits and pieces out of my post, such as in #130, and re-framing them in my idealistic version of a world (based on how people “could” do things) I’d rather live in is about as illogical as me expecting everyone to suddenly drop notions of profit because they’ll feel better doing it for nothing.

    This:

    Aren’t you working just “because it’s your desire to help your neighbour and your community?”

    only really works if my idealistic version is the existence we actually have. Now it’s not just that I don’t expect a crusty ol’ cynic like you (and I mean that with all due respect) to get that I’m talking strictly in idealistic terms, but it’s that my ideals don’t match with this for-profit sense of things. I know this, so I have to play the game and, yes, work for money.

    But with that money, I like to help others when I can. I’m proud to have a system in place that provides for others as well as myself.

    And that takes us back to the original argument: nobody “should” get something for nothing. Obviously this statement rings true because we’re ruled by greed and profit to the extent that it becomes damn near hilarious to do something for the love of it or for the sake of others, but that doesn’t mean I have to like it and it doesn’t mean it has to be my ideal for the world I’d like to live in.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “we’re ruled by greed and profit”

    Some are, some aren’t. Remember the good old times when corporations at least tried to be responsible. There’s more to being in business than just making money. There are such things as creating the architecture of it, being a valuable member of the community, providing needed goods and services, employment, spreading wealth. These are ethical and aesthetic components which simplistic accounts by such as Clavos and company either purposely and unwittingly ignore. And they’re just as important elements as “making money” – or at least have been so to the more enlightened entrepreneurs.

  • Clavos

    Fair enough, Jordan.

    And I commend for living by your principles by helping others when you can.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Except that we can’t, as a society, try to insist on ethical/high-minded behavior – especially from our business class. So the behavior is commendable but only when practiced on the individual basis.

    I suggest there are things a society can do to encourage individuals to act responsibly and to promote their interests as well. These aren’t contradictories.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Whattsa matta, Jordan?

    I asked you a civil question. You can’t give a civil answer.

    You said that Mombasa was not part of Kenya in 1961. I went digging around to find out when it changed hands from Zanzibar to Kenya and found nothing. And I told you so.

    Therefore, I repeat. When was it that Mombasa was turned over from the Sultanate of Zanzibar to the Crown Colony or Prtectorate of Kenya?

    Funny how when someone takes criticism seriously and looks for answers so-called “debunkers” like you shut the hell up.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    In other words, Jordan, it is put up or shut up time. All that bullshit with Roger about “ethical societies” are just that – bullshit – if you cannot ask a civil question.

    I await your answer.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Screw you, Ruvy. If you want to address me directly, then do so. Indirect remarks like the one above are chickenshit.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Ruvy (and Jordan) @ 136:

    From Wikipedia:

    “Mombasa was part of the state of Zanzibar until 12 December 1963 when it was ceded to be incorporated into the newly independent state of Kenya.”

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I’m not addressing you at all, Roger. I’m addressing Jordan.

    But it is useless to prattle on about “ethical societies” if you cannot answer a simple and civil question – which is what Jordan has refused to do. For him, not you, it is put up or shut up time.

    “Ethical societies” are built upon, amongst other things the willing to converse in a civil and polite manner, rather than ignoring answers to allegations. That is the sign of the arrogant society, the “generation with the face of a dog” foretold by our sages millennia ago.

    Nevertheless, I still await Jordan’s answer.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Thank you, DD.

  • zingzing

    ruvy needs a bigger shovel. or some google-tutoring.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Just a brief note, DD. Wikipedia has a spotted reputation as a source of information and reference – for good reason – a point that Jordan alluded to himself in his comments to me.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I’m sorry if I took your remark out of context.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    @ #143:

    Very well, Ruvy. Then how about this?

    There is also a contemporary New York Times article which I found confirming Wikipedia’s facts – unfortunately you have to pay (or at the very least create an account) to view it.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Actually, Ruvy, I didn’t see your question. I tend to gloss over 95% of your posts. For that, I apologize. I also don’t really check this place on a daily basis unless something interests me. The “birthers” stuff is really something I should have left alone.

    When was it that Mombasa was turned over from the Sultanate of Zanzibar to the Crown Colony or Prtectorate of Kenya?

    As DD said, 1963. Wikipedia does have a spotted reputation, which is why it’s a good idea to turn to other sources to back up things that aren’t matters of mere historical record.

    Now again, I tend to skim your posts at the best of times. So I do apologize for missing your numerous warnings that today (or yesterday?) is “put up or shut up time.”

  • Jordan Richardson

    Clavos,

    Thank you. And kudos for someone seeing what I was attempting to say. I know it’s generally not easy.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    At comment #69 I wrote,

    Let’s cut straight to the issue here, folks, and ram this down your stubborn denial-eating and denial-spewing throats.

    This is not an issue of whining because the wrong man won. Not for me. I wanted Obama and still want him in the White House because he is an open enemy of Israel and is doing whatever he can to undermine its existence. For me, he is the best thing since sliced bread because he rips the tissue of “friendship” from the America-Israel relationship and exposes it for the bullying imperialism it really is.

    NO!

    This is an issue of violating your constitution and getting away with it. Richard “Tricky Dick” Nixon rises to be a giant of a man compared to this scum from the Chicago thief-works. Nixon at least obeyed the law in the end – unlike this arrogant bastard who thinks he is above the law.

    At comment #75 I wrote,

    At the very least, in my opinion, it is a facsimile of a birth certificate originating in the District of Mombasa in 1961 – whether under Kenyan or Zanzibar’s rule – which was certified by an official of the Kenyan government in 1964 – presumably to clear up what country the young Obama was actually a citizen of.

    All the rest of you, like ostriches sticking their heads in the sand, chose to ignore this – except Jordan who noted (correctly) that Kenya was not a republic in 1961, and who further noted that Mombasa, the location of Obama’s probable birth, was part of the Sultanate of Zanzibar. I eschewed Wikipedia, as I regard it as a flawed source of data, and went looking around for when Mombasa became part of Kenya. Finding nothing, I asked him and theorized that the copy presented in the World Net Daily was done because Barack Hussein Obama, a Luo from Kenya, wanted it clear that his son was a Kenyan citizen.

    Jordan chose to ignore me. I guess that is what “liberals” do when their objections are answered.

    The rest of you, with your heads firmly stuck in the sand, and your derrieres sticking way up in the air, don’t want to know. So if the bastard in the White House defrauds you, I guess it’s coming to you, isn’t it? You get to pay for your ignorance and refusal to look facts in the face, not I.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Thank you, DD. I believed you the first time, even though you quoted Wikipedia.

    And Jordan, you are forgiven. But if you are going to object to something on factual grounds, at least pay attention when someone spends time to answer your objections.

  • Jordan Richardson

    But if you are going to object to something on factual grounds, at least pay attention when someone spends time to answer your objections.

    Honestly, there aren’t enough hours in the day for me to do that. I think the answer is probably to stop objecting, given that I can’t possibly sift through every page of nonsense.

    Also, Ruvy, if Obama turns out to be an alien from outer space, you’ll be dead wrong and then you’ll REALLY pay for your ignorance and refusal to look facts in the face.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Finding nothing, I asked him and theorized that the copy presented in the World Net Daily was done because Barack Hussein Obama, a Luo from Kenya, wanted it clear that his son was a Kenyan citizen.

    Aren’t we all glad he managed to clear that up!

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “Wikipedia has a spotted reputation as a source of information and reference”

    So does the Old Testament, and yet…

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    So does the Old Testament

    Old testa-who? Old testa-what? I hope it’s not an old testicle. Those can be very unreliable, from what I’m told. Very testy, in fact….

    I have heard of a series of books called the Tana”kh, or the Hebrew Bible. Maybe you should look them up some time, EB. You might find them interesting – especially if you study them with a Jewish commentary and a dictionary of ancient Hebrew at hand….

  • zingzing

    does it differ in any major way other than the fact that it’s in hebrew?

  • http://www.facebook.com/tuckermonticelli?ref=profile Tucker M

    Wow I love that Obama Marxism pic! Really its gorgeous. Too bad Obamas not a Marxist. O well maybe one day America Will become socialist. We should look up to Sweden! Yay for no class struggles! DOWN WITH CAPITALISM!