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Woah! Look At That – A Nobel Prize!

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This morning I sat down to breakfast and opened a brand new box of Cheerios and as I was pouring the cereal into my bowl… KERTHUNK! Something heavy fell into it, spilling toasty oaty O's all over the table.

Wow. There in my bowl was this huge gold coin with a picture of some old dude on it named Alfr• Nobel. I wonder what language "•" is a character in. Never mind. It's a bigass gold coin and I didn't have to do anything for it, just pour out some Cheerios.

Skipping breakfast, I wrapped that coin up in an old sock and took it with me into town. I was taking some of my kid's toys to a consignment store and then stopping at Joe's Pawn Shop to pawn my laptop before heading to the unemployment office to apply for my benefits. I figured Joe could tell me if that coin was real gold.

When I showed Joe the coin he said, "Man, that's a big coin and it's real gold. I'll give you $2,000 for it here on the spot, but you might want to hold onto it. It would likely have an even higher value to a collector, and the way the dollar is going down it'll probably be worth twice that in a couple of months." Joe's an honest guy.

I told him "thanks" and decided I should keep it, because come next year when our COBRA coverage runs out, we'll need that money to pay the "excise tax" for not having health insurance for me, the wife, and the kid and that gold coin should just about cover the $2,250 we'll owe the government with just a bit left over.

I headed home pretty happy. It didn't even bother me that the old Chevy was smoking a bit and the air conditioning was out again. I hardly missed my Prius that got repo'd last month.

Thinking about it, I realized that I really deserved that coin and someone up there must be looking out for me. Maybe it was President Obama. He's looking out for all of us little people. That's what my rep at the union used to tell me when I still had a job and could keep up with my dues. The kids in school are praying to him now. Maybe I should too.

So thanks, President Obama. I think I've earned that prize. Cheerios is on the menu for lunch and dinner too. Maybe I'll win another coin.

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About Dave Nalle

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Poor Alfr. has been spinning in hs grave since Arabfart snagged his gold. When you’re dead, you can’t get tired….

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I would label that a satire, Dave. Not to late to change that.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    And the funny thing is, it may have just the opposite effect on his dwindling popularity at home.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    I would label that a satire, Dave.

    More of a sarcastic rant, really.

  • http://www.futonreport.net/ Matthew T. Sussman

    Wait! Save those box tops, and you can buy the limited edition special birth certificate decoder ring.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Maybe Obama will give his cash prize (isn’t it a million or so?) to the poor… LMAO

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Christine is my hero for the day. That is a good one

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    And Dave, hope that was not Honey Nut Cheerios..too much sugar!

  • Baronius

    Dave, you have consistently articulated principles of freedom and human rights on a variety of national and international issues. Congratulations on your Nobel Peace Prize. You’ve earned it far more than most recent recipients.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Cindy, I’ve made you laugh twice now!

    Maybe we can now put Obama on the box of Wheaties with his medal!

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I like this article, Dave. I agree with both its implications and its finger pointing, though we have very different solutions.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I was thinking the same, Christine (#6); that would make him somewhat believable.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Have you noticed, Cindy, that Dave is given to a kind of rhythm – reasonable followed by the worst kind of rant?

    Look for fire and brimstones the next time around.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Yes, Roger, I’m not sure why Christine added “LMAO” to her comment. It’s virtually certain that the president, already a millionaire from book royalties, will donate the cash, probably to an NGO.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Wonkette has cataloged the two extremes of reaction to the news:

    And “Erick Erickson,” some sort of retarded cousin of Robbie Robertson and #1 journalist on top Internet destination RedState.com is just a little caught off guard because he “did not realize the Nobel Peace Prize had an affirmative action quota for it.”

    The DNC has overreacted to the GOP’s overreaction, and now this whole Barack Obama Nobel Peace Prize to-do is just an infinite regress of hyperbole.

    Cue Brad Woodhouse, DNC Communications Director: “The Republican Party has thrown in its lot with the terrorists — the Taliban and Hamas this morning — in criticizing the President for receiving the Nobel Peace prize.”

    Brad Woodhouse, no! Can someone please pause the Internet? We are nearing some sort of event horizon of rationality.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Handy, well IF he does give his winnings to the poor, I will stop laughing and applaud him!

  • Mark Schannon

    I’m with you Baronius. Dave is certainly the most qualified person to win the Nobel Piece Prize. Although I admit I quickly ran to my (generic) Honey Nut Cheerios to see if there was, like, the Nobel Prize for Physics or Medicine, but alas, nada, or as the Spanish say, nothing.

    Makes me thing that if ol’ Dave is eating the Real Thing Type Cheerios, he’s not as destitute as he’s making out.

    And Suss, I got my birth certificate decoder ring, and you’ll never believe it: Obama was born in Cleveland but his mother was too embarrassed to admit it. However, it turns out that George W. Bush was born in Tunisia. Go figure.

    In Jameson Veritas

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Roger, the article is in the “satire” category AND it’s tagged “satire” and “sarcasm” so don’t worry.

    And BTW, this is a work of fiction. Many details have been changed to protect the innocent. I only eat Cheerios when I’m constipated — a half bowl clears it right up.

    Dave

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Cool. At least we agree on this issue, not to mention the premature prize.

    The least they could do is wait another year for signs of relief. So I guess they gave him a rain check. I hope he’ll prove his mettle but I don’t count on it.

  • Baronius

    So it looks like the Nobel committee is in a phase of praising useless, ineffective people. I’d say that it began in 2001, with Kofi Annan. Then you’ve had Carter (for criticizing Bush), ElBaradei (for looking the other way on nuclear proliferation), Gore (for a movie, and not being Bush), and Obama (for also not being Bush). It’s better than their marginally-reformed-thugs phase, off-and-on from the mid-1970’s to the mid-1990’s, but still the prize has less credibility than the Golden Globes.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    To add to the farcical nature of this, the actual vote on the prize was completed when Obama had only been in office 11 days, even though they announced it now. So they basically had no idea what he would do, if anything, when they awarded it to him.

    Dave

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Now, that’s scandalous.

  • Deano

    Not to rain on the anti-Nobel pararade, but can you source that “11 days in office” assertation Dave?

    The info I have on the Nobel process is that invite letters for nominations goes out in September, the nomination deadline is February, a short list is developed by the committee which is then reviewed by the Nobel advisors from March until August, and then in October the Committee makes its selection.

    So Obama must have been put forward as a nominee by February (which is probably where your 11 day thing comes from). I would expect that the first black US president getting to the short-list might be a relatively unsurprising occurrance.

    So its not quite how you’ve painted it….

    However as someone who also hopes for world peace (and is not George W. Bush), (which do seem to be the only real qualifications the Nobel Committee was looking for this year!) I am still waiting for my Nobel in the mail…

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Hm.

    Barack Obama continues the drawdown of forces in Iraq as he promised, he led America (and by extension the world) back from economic disaster, he’s greatly eased the tensions between America and Russia and between America and many Islamic countries. In fact, in the weeks following his speech in Cairo the moderates in Lebanon and in Iran showed their strength in ways that would have been impossible just a year before. Also, Obama led the world in exposing Iran’s second nuke plant – of course the intelligence wasn’t from him, but he DOES get the credit for getting even Russia and China on our side! Could Bush have done that? Please.

    These accomplishments are not exactly ‘nothing’.

    Perhaps everyone should step back and ask what the Nobel Peace Prize is about – it’s about PEACE. And for someone who’s been in office less than a year, President Obama’s done pretty doggone well. He is deserving of the prize.

  • Earl

    Dear Dave:

    the actual vote on the prize was completed when Obama had only been in office 11 days, even though they announced it now.

    Wrong.

    The nomination deadline was when Obama had been in office 11 days. The vote on the prize was this week.

    Not that I expect you to take the facts into consideration or even register them as the facts. From what I’ve seen here it’s not in your nature.

  • Baronius

    Barack Obama continued the drawdown of forces in Iraq begun by Bush, he led America (and by extension the world) into continued economic contraction, he’s capitulated to Russia and apologized to many Islamic countries. In fact, in the months following his speech in Cairo the moderates in Iran were butchered by government troops. Also, Obama failed to respond in any way to the revelation of Iran’s second nuke plant, because Russia and China don’t want him to. Would Bush have displayed such weakness? Please.

    These accomplishments are exactly ‘nothing’.

    Perhaps everyone should step back and ask what the Nobel Peace Prize is about – it’s a EUROPEAN OLIGARCH POPULARITY CONTEST. And for someone who’s been out of Illinois for more than four years, he’s still accomplished less than Wayne and Garth. The prize committee is deserving of him.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Deano, I think you have it right. The main qualification for receiving this prize was not being George W. Bush.

    And yes, Earl. I’ve now looked up the schedule, which can be found on the nobel website and the final vote was later than the initial selection was. My mistake for relying on what was reported on the morning news.

    But I really don’t see how that fact makes much difference, as the initial selection of the shortlist was still made within weeks of his inauguration and could not have been on the basis of any actual accomplishments.

    Dave

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    The nomination deadline was when Obama had been in office 11 days. The vote on the prize was this week.

    Earl, you know better than to confuse these people with facts… you silly.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Bar,

    “These accomplishments are exactly ‘nothing’.”

    Really! It’s far more than Bush managed in 8 years. He and his overseer, Cheney, took so many steps backward that just getting back to zero would be an accomplishment. Obama has, in fact, accomplished setting the stage for far more progress toward easing world tensions.

    I know, the rightwing hawks maintain that the preferred position is being the bully, being obnoxious, assuming American superiority and a readiness to pull the trigger on anyone who objects – Bomb, bomb, bomb. Bomb, bomb Iran.”

    B

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    This god-damned country has something to be proud of, something that most of the rest of the world is proud of him for winning and acknowledges his efforts to achieve peace by meeting with our enemies and trying to dialogue with them.

    In the midst of that, new reports are flying around the world that Americans faling all over themselves to tear down their own president! What does that say to our international reputation??????

    What’s wrong with us? Goddam it we should be beating our chests with pride right along with our allies WE’RE EVEN BEING CONGRATULATED BY ARAB STATES-but at every turn our own people try to tear Obama down. There isn’t a high honor that this man can earn that someone can’t jump to tear down immediately?

    Look at the ASSHOLES still trying to say he has a phony birth certificate.

    LIKE IT OR NOT OBAMA IS THE FACE OF THIS NATION-OUR NATION and worldwide admiration for the man is one of the most essential key components to our being able to pull ourselves up and repair the prestige around the world that this country USED to have.

    Maybe they’re right after all! Are all you idiots just terrified that a danmed nigger might potentially turn out to be one of the greatest presidents that ever served?

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Baronius –

    Perhaps you should check the facts before posting easily-refuted rhetoric.

    Barack Obama continued the drawdown of forces in Iraq begun by Bush

    On 9/10/08, Bush announced a troop withdrawal from Iraq, all right – of a paltry 8,000 troops to be withdrawn by February 2009. THAT’s your ‘withdrawal’ by Bush.

    he led America (and by extension the world) into continued economic contraction

    unfortunately, most economists (and most people more interested in FACTS than in rhetoric) disagree with you.

    he’s capitulated to Russia

    for not continuing a ‘missile shield’ that was nowhere near operational, to be replaced by one that would be operational much sooner (and operational NOW on Navy ships), MUCH more cheaply, and was more technologically appropriate for the stated purpose. Yeah, that’s ‘capitulation’ all right, huh? “Facts are stubborn things”.

    and apologized to many Islamic countries

    Can you point out ONCE that President Obama apologized to a Muslim nation? Oh – I forget – y’all HATE actually having to fact-check yourselves….

    In fact, in the months following his speech in Cairo the moderates in Iran were butchered by government troops

    Which exposed the cruelty of the Ahmedinajad regime for all to see. I suppose you’d have been happier if the Iranian people hadn’t protested at all? And Obama’s reaction was precisely what we needed to do – because to use the bully pulpit to encourage the moderates would have given the conservatives there much more of an excuse to crush the movement…which is STILL going on, thank you very much.

    Also, Obama failed to respond in any way to the revelation of Iran’s second nuke plant, because Russia and China don’t want him to.

    Man, but you love to ASSUME that he’s not doing anything, huh? But the negotiations are still going on. “Tehran is far more likely to tailor its positions to what will be acceptable to Russia, China and some of the Europeans than it is to heed the demands put forward by the U.S. and its key allies. (Neither Moscow nor Beijing believes Iran is building nuclear weapons, even if they’re sympathetic to Western concerns over the need for greater safeguards against it doing so.)”

    In other words, we may not get everything we want…but we get enough to get the Iranians to behave.

    Would Bush have displayed such weakness? Please.

    Bush would have been MUCH weaker. Why? Because he didn’t understand diplomacy – and apparently neither do you. If you go at a nation and tell them “Do what I say or we’ll invade you!”, is that country likely to do what you say? Especially when you’ve done it to other countries and you’re what their religion calls an ‘infidel’?

    No. That country would tell you to do your worst. They’d spend millions of lives in defense of their own country, but not one penny to give in to your demands. This is called national pride – and I hate to break it to you, Baronius, but EVERY nation has this.

    In diplomacy, you ask/demand/bargain for more than what you need (but not so much that it insults the other party), and they do the same. Sooner or later you get to a point where both give in somewhat, both get less than what they wanted, and neither are happy with the results. The artful diplomat, though, does get what he needs, if not what he wants.

    President Obama has all the tools of an artful diplomat (including the hammer of the military). The only tool Bush had was that hammer of the military – and because of that, every problem looked like a nail. That’s why his reaction would have been weaker – because his only recourse was another war, another trillion dollars from the American taxpayer (and more buckets of blood).

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Hey Jet – dude, cool your jets, man (pun intended).

    Dave – above is the second time I’ve seen a conservative own up to a mistake on BC, and both were by you. That takes courage and honor…and that’s why I like you, even though we go at it hammer-and-tongs. Good on ya.

    “Join me, and we will change the face of America! You don’t know the power of the far-left liberal side!”
    Darth Barney Frank-n-Furter

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Take it easy, Jet – let’s not such each other’s dicks just yet. (Pulp Fiction.)

    I’m happy for Obama, especially if he’ll donate the prize to some worthy and yes, visible cause, but should I crap in my pants from joy. Glenn too is unaffected by the situation in the states, living abroad.

    I’m sorry, guys, but I am less than enthused with the way our economic situation is NOT being addressed. As far as I am concerned, that’s issue number one. Everything else, gay rights, healthcare, you name it, must be secondary. “It’s the economy, stupid,” remember the old phrase?

    There isn’t a chance in hell anybody can run this country with this division and growing discontent – that’s why such a bitter opposition that everything Obama even touches. People need to see results beyond plain talk, a change of perception even, a sign of success in the economic arena. There has been nothing, zilch, nada.

    Once you should me what became of the stimulus package money – Handy argues of course, “it’s work in progress,” utter baloney – and what good did it do, then I’ll kiss both your royal asses and apologize.

    Not before.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    suck . . .

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    A well educated and researched comment there Roger… proud of you :)

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Jet, before you get all stirred up about how we run down our president, spend some time watching the British parliament criticizing Gordon Brown or the fistfights in the Japanese Parliament. We’re positively civil by comparison with most of the world.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Rog –

    I’m here in the states. I have a house over in the PI, but my home’s still here in the states until we can afford to live over there. Come on up to Puget Sound – it’s a lot nicer here than in Tennessee. I’ll never forget at the Memphis airport where the Starbuck’s barista didn’t know what a breve was. Tennessee’s nice and so are most of the people there, don’t get me wrong…but I like it here better.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    You’re absolutely right that our Congress normally shows much more decorum…but I don’t think their politicians shoot effigies or plant headstones with the names (or at least the initials) of their opponents, as GOP politicians have done in the past week.

    Nor do they call for a coup backed by the military – that was by a GOP congressman within the past few weeks, too.

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    The GOP is falling all over itself to make sure this president accomplishes nothing during his term and to run down, demean and negate any accolades he gets no matter how much he deserves it.

    it’s an international embarrasment imho

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    What’s there to research, Jet? I’m not going to get lost in facts cited by Bernanke or other enablers. I can understand you all want to believe – and so do I. But understand I’m not coming from the same field as Baronius or others. If I’m pissed, it’s because I care – about you and all the freakin’ others who have lost their jobs and there are no prospects in sight.

    So no, I’m not going to relax in front of the fireplace, sip my bourbon, and pretend the world is rosy. It aint.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I don’t give a shit what GOP is doing. I don’t give a shit about THEIR motives. I expect this president to do something about seven million jobs lost. And you should too.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    rog –

    Make it a good scotch and I’ll join you and tell you how very rosy it is – because historically speaking, life’s never been better for the human race.

    Don’t get me wrong – life sucks right now for millions of individual Americans, and billions of individual people in the world. However, in the big picture, it’s never been better.

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Excuse me for confusing you with the facts about the voting data… my bad

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I don’t understand the big picture, Glenn, I really don’t. Can’t you see this country is about to fall apart at the seams. Everything points to it – the abandonment of civility, growing general discontent, ever-rising unemployment.

    I wouldn’t take solace in enlightened legislation, if I were you, because when the economic house falls, so will all these fine legal edifices.

    So you had better hurry for that scotch offering – I’ll make it Haig & Haig if you don’t mind, or Glen Moray, 16-year old – while there’s still time.

  • Baronius

    Roger, you’re not like Baronius; you care about people. Cute.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Baronius,

    I don’t have any antipathy towards Obama or the progressive program. My dissatisfaction is not based on any “I’ve told you so,” or the like – but only on the basis of non-performance.

    And to the best of my recollection, you’re objection to the award was only in terms of foreign policy. Well, I could care less about that and I stated my reason(s).

    So I’m not going to say you don’t care, only you had an opportunity to address what I regard the most important issue – jobs and economy – but you didn’t.

  • Baronius

    Glenn, I can’t find anyone other than Gates who says that we’re ditching our missile defense in Europe for an even better program. And even Gates notes that Russia approves of our decision.

    I can find some economists who think that things will get better, but not many who think that they already are. And did you know that there have been more bank failures in Obama’s few months than there were under two terms of Bush?

    The same way that you credit Obama for a missile program that might be deployed and an economy that might be turning around, you credit him for the possible results of negotiations that are still going on. These FACTS that you espouse aren’t right; they’re not even wrong. They’re hopes.

  • Baronius

    Roger, it’s largely a foreign policy award.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    What voting data, Jet? I hope you don’t mean November 2008, because if you do, it’s obsolete.

    If elections were held today, I’m far from certain he would beat a viable – I repeat, viable republican candidate.

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Nobel prize vote roger… geez

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I understand that, Baronius, so you are correct to delimit your remarks to foreign policy. I just couldn’t help venting (not against you, I hope you understand) but against this president.

    I’m not surprised the libs get a bad rap for defending him so, no matter. (It’s as ideological as anything from the right.) The rap is more than justified.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Gotcha. But what has this got to do with anything? He won and so be it. Now, I’d like to see you get your hands on twenty grand. Then I could celebrate, and so could you.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Rog –

    The Glen Moray will do nicely. The Haig, well, old Alexander ruined that for me when he took control of things.

    I’ve always been a ‘big picture’ person. I think that America is beginning her long, slow decline (as all nations eventually do), but prematurely so thanks to the conservatives’ insistence on economic deregulation, war-as-diplomacy, drill-baby-drill, and global-warming denial, among other things.

    But I console myself with the knowledge (assumption, really) that thanks to the spread of technology and access to information, even many third-world countries have a higher standard of living than they’d once dreamed possible…and sixteen first-world countries have a higher standard of living than we do.

    America will eventually pass into the dustbin of history as all nations do – but that doesn’t I’m not a patriot, that I’m about to give up my citizenship.

    I also refuse to be too bitter about the present economic doom-and-gloom – because this recover could well turn out to be a hiccup on the way down to depression despite the best efforts of our government. But I remember the stories of the Depression, and I remember the stories from my wife’s family – we’re not starving, and we’re warm, and I’m grateful for that.

    If a solar flare blasts the world with EMP and brings our computer age to a halt, or if global warming truly runs away beyond the present worst-case scenarios, or if an asteroid or comet strikes, or if we have a full-scale nuclear exchange…then I’ll be truly worried. But not so much until then.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, Glenn, I do think that dust will settle sooner or later, but there’ll have to be another configuration. America as we know it, it’s my honest opinion, had had it. It will be a global economy, global government, global administration. The era of nation-states is over.

    So yes, it’s not necessarily a doomsday scenario and globally at least, I hope things will get better. But humans have not really inspired a great deal of confidence when it comes to their ability to govern themselves and others with fairness and with justice. Is there any reason to expect a sudden change of heart? You tell me.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    I think they just felt bad because Obama didn’t win the Olympic Gold!!!

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Baronius –

    Glenn, I can’t find anyone other than Gates who says that we’re ditching our missile defense in Europe for an even better program. And even Gates notes that Russia approves of our decision.

    Choice 1 – a system with technology not yet in production, at the cost of a really high price, to be placed in locations not yet constructed, and provides a serious irritant to foreign policy.

    Choice 2 – A system ready-to-go with proven off-the-shelf technology, deployable in a matter of weeks if need be, at a FAR reduced cost, and causes no irritant to foreign policy.

    Is that really such a difficult choice, Baronius?

    I can find some economists who think that things will get better, but not many who think that they already are.

    ‘Some’? How about ‘most’, like here in the NPR, or ‘nearly unanimous’ here in the conservative Wall Street Journal?

    Hm?

    And did you know that there have been more bank failures in Obama’s few months than there were under two terms of Bush?

    OH NO! THERE’S BEEN ABOUT NINETY-FOUR BANK FAILURES UNDER OBAMA IN HIS FIRST YEAR!!!!!

    Ninety-four? In the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression? Let’s compare that to how Reagan (and then Bush 41) did after six years of the Reagan Revolution!

    Bank failures:
    1986 – 150
    1987 – 210
    1988 – 225
    1989 – 210

    Interestingly, the state with the biggest number of bank failures from 1982-1989 was Texas (home of the Bushes, remember?), which had 368, more than triple the number of closures in any other state. Next was Oklahoma at 104, two other smaller red states…and then we get the blue state with the highest number of bank failures – California, which had 40, or less than one-ninth what Texas had!

    So, um, Obama’s not even two-thirds at what Reagan had in ’86 after six years of practice…and Obama’s situation was much, much worse by all accounts.

    Oh, but I forget! Obama’s terrible, terrible! And the sky is falling!

    The same way that you credit Obama for a missile program that might be deployed and an economy that might be turning around, you credit him for the possible results of negotiations that are still going on. These FACTS that you espouse aren’t right; they’re not even wrong. They’re hopes.

    Seems to me that since you did NOT use facts to refute me, and since I DID use facts (with good references) to refute you…Baronius, dude – it’s not a case of ‘hope and change’ or “Yes we can” – it’s “Yes, he DID”.

    ;)

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Good night to all – have fun!

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    FYI — NobelPrize.org

    “for his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples”

  • Baronius

    Glenn, your phrasing is, as always, hilarious. It’s like something out of a 1930’s vampire movie. “The facts you have are weak compared to my facts. My facts will take command of your facts, and then all the facts will be mine! Bwahahahaha!”

    The WSJ article that you claim is nearly unanimous actually represents 27 of 52 surveyed economists (with 5 not responding). That’s 52%. The article was published in August, before the most recent unemployment data was released. Your information about bank failures is interesting but irrelevent. Banks are in trouble today.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Considering that the ball began rolling well before Obama took office, the fact that it has taken a number of banks with it is hardly on Obama’s shoulders.

    Is it a bad thing that Russia is favorable in its reaction to Obama’s changing our priorities concerning missle defense? Are we simply to do only that which pisses them off? If they say black, do we automatically have say white? Could it possibly be that promulgating better relations with Russia and other traditionally hostile nations could work in our favor? Or are we to always and only act and react with belligerence, with bluster, with saber rattling?

    And Roger,

    I don’t really understand your pessimism, unless it provides you with a convenient rationale for hitting the scotch. Certainly, we are a long way to a substantive recovery from the recession. But, just as with weight gain, we don’t wake up one morning having gained 50 pounds. For most of us, it takes years to become fat asses (of which, I am admittedly one.) Once we start on the road to losing that fat, it’s rarely a brief journey. It takes months or even years to get to our ideal weight, and there are usually a lot of false starts and going astray. The economy didn’t go in the toilet overnight. It took years of neglect. The healing process is certainly not going to work overnight.

    Virtually every economist I’ve heard or read have invariably stated that the job market will be the last to recover. To say that nothing has been happening is just not accurate. There are several unambiguous signs of recovery.

    My main problem with it all is that nothing has really changed on Wall Street or in the residential mortgage process. And it is largely the Republicans and, yes, the blue dogs, who remain in opposition to strengthening the regulatory processes.
    If it all goes on just as before, how long will it be before we are back in the same boat? Not long, I’d judge.

    B

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    If elections were held today, I’m far from certain he would beat a viable – I repeat, viable republican candidate.

    When you find one, let me know.

    Ninety-four? In the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression?

    Glenn, you’re the one who has been claiming this is the worst recession since the great depression. Maybe you’re just wrong. Given the number of bank failures under Reagan, maybe THAT was in fact a worse recession than this one. And maybe comparisons the the Great Depression are a bit much altogether, since neither recession came anywhere near the 4500 bank closures in the first 5 years of the Depression.

    Dave

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “I don’t really understand your pessimism, unless it provides you with a convenient rationale for hitting the scotch.”

    That’s a bullshit comment, and you know it.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/heloise Heloise

    Oh Dave, I couldn’t stop laughing, then I did and wrote my own opinion. Hope you publish it. Nice try at satire.

    Heloise

  • Jordan Richardson

    You guys are nuts.

    If a Canadian PM won the Nobel Prize for Maple Syrup, everyone in Canada would be proud of the accomplishment and the political opposition would congratulate him or her on the Prize.

    Instead, you nutters continue to prove to the rest of the world that, when it comes to being divided over just about anything, you’re still number one.

    By the way, Dave, nice job on the Wikipedia page. I had no idea you designed the font for Lady of the Lake.

  • Jordan Richardson

    We’re positively civil by comparison with most of the world.

    Lolz.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Well Roger, I sort of threw that in as a light joke – I suppose I should have put a smiley face next to it. But, that’s it? That’s all you’ve got to say? Guess I struck a nerve. Prost!

    B

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Roger, we’re all concerned about jobs. [One assumes that includes the president.]

    As you may recall, I have been one of the long-term unemployed. You’ve read about us in the paper: 1/3 of the currently unemployed have been out of work more than six months.

    This week, for the first time in just over a year, I deposited a paycheck in my bank account. It’s a contract job, and I’m still looking, but I’ve had several interviews in several weeks, and nearly all the companies told the same story: they had downsized earlier, six months to a year ago, and they were now, cautiously, beginning to rehire.

    This anecdotal evidence supports something Alan Greenspan said to George Stephanopoulos recently, and something I myself have theorized: the “falling off a cliff” employment numbers of last fall and winter were a sign of panic. Many companies probably overreacted and cut too many jobs. And some of them are now beginning to hire again.

    Of course Obama wants to improve the jobs situation. [That’s what the $787 billion stimulus is all about. Whether you agree that it has worked and will continue to work, it was a major effort.]

    What more, exactly, do you expect the president to do? What magical solution is he ignoring or failing to enact? The jobs, eventually, will have to come from the private sector, not the president. Stimulus packages and tax breaks for home buyers are just meant to create economic activity during the temporary drought of private activity. They can’t replace it entirely.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    No, it didn’t strike a nerve. But if that’s your retort to a valid concern, then screw it.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Tell you what, Handy. A visible effort. See people working on the infrastructure, digging ditches, filling out potholes, a whole bunch of government projects initiating on the local level, at EDDs (Education & Development Depts), people getting hired and recruited the moment they walk in. Shall I provide some more silly ideas? Anything and everything to make you, me, anybody else believe that they care and are doing something about it. Extending unemployment benefits and putting people on dole takes nothing. We’ve been doing it for years, and it takes no special effort. It’s a bureaucrat’s job, just like pushing a button. It’s not government’s money anyway, so what do they care. And if they run out, they can always print some more. So no, that’s not the solution, and neither is putting people in schools for vocational training. It’s good in the long run, but not when you’re out of money and need to work right now.

    So Handy, telling me that Obama cares is not enough. I care too, and so do you, and we probably care more than he does because we’re ordinary people, not politicians. But he is the president, not you or I. There is nothing you or I can do about the remedial situation. But he can. And he didn’t.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “If a Canadian PM won the Nobel Prize for Maple Syrup, everyone in Canada would be proud of the accomplishment and the political opposition would congratulate him or her on the Prize.”

    Well, perhaps you’ve hit the nail on the head, Jordan, and identified the essential difference. Perhaps being divided over the direction this country is going is not such a bad thing, or over the fact whether progress is being made, or over the relative merits or demerits of this president. In case you haven’t noticed, it’s not about the Nobel Prize but more tangible things. Perhaps you can afford to sit on the sidelines and laugh at the entire spectacle, but I’m sure glad that we can’t, and I’m glad that we don’t.

    So what do you say now? That we should become united as a nation over such silly matter as Maple Leafs or Maple Syrup. Well, I’m not a Toronto fan.

    But seriously now, I’m glad that for the most part we’re not that chauvinistic and make it a matter of national pride – or do you take us for the Frenchies? Or French Canadians?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “The Nobel committee members made no bones about it: Helping Obama achieve ambitious peacemaking goals was their goal in awarding the prize Friday to an as-yet mostly unaccomplished U.S. president.”

    Quoted for truth.

    Source: AP.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Roger, what the hell are you talking about?

    The Nobel Peace prize has nothing to do with your national policies or what’s happening in America regarding your countless issues. It’s not an award for economics, nor does it have shit to do with the “direction” your country is headed. It’s not an American award; it has nothing to do with American politics.

    It should be a matter of national pride that your leader has won it, but instead it’s yet another example of the way you trivialize EVERYTHING down to two basic political components: right vs. left.

    In case you haven’t noticed, it’s not about the Nobel Prize but more tangible things.

    No, it is about the Nobel Prize. People are criticizing Obama for winning it because of their point of view of “more tangible things,” but his winning it has NOTHING to do with those “things.”

    You can “afford” to laugh at yourselves and the spectacle you create sometimes as Americans, Roger. It’s just that you choose not to, preferring instead to continue the sky-is-falling rhetoric when you STILL remain the world’s richest nation, you STILL have running water and shit most people around the world would literally kill for, and you STILL have basic freedoms a lot of countries don’t have.

    That you choose to allow division and Almighty Seriousness infuse this, something that should be fucking celebrated by every American, is just another example of the arrogance of your culture. You show the rest of us that it is difficult, probably impossible, for Americans to unite over anything.

    That we should become united as a nation over such silly matter as Maple Leafs or Maple Syrup.

    You know, you should try a little silliness sometimes. I know you’re probably too busy thinking very highly of yourself to have a chuckle, but it doesn’t hurt to slum it every so often instead of rolling through life with your back up constantly waiting to make some “point” to the same basic crowd of e-stooges (no offense, of course). You’re not giving a lecture, Roger, you’re posting on the intrawebs.

    I’m glad that for the most part we’re not that chauvinistic and make it a matter of national pride

    It must be comfortable to be so happily delusional. Maybe that makes you smile. I sure as hell hope so, man.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Jordan,

    You’re really showing a complex of sorts when you’re keep on repeating about America this, America that. Get over it. It’s understandable that your take on things is bound to be different. But don’t expect me or anybody else for that matter to adopt your philosophical outlook.

    And I wasn’t feakin’ lecturing you. In case you have any doubt, compare your long-winded comment with mine. Or perhaps you are a Canuck, which would explain the essential cultural differences.

    More to the point, however. My views are my views, and I don’t see a goddamn point your trying to lump me and speak of all Americans as if in passing. In case you’re not aware of it, it’s very bad form. So if you have a comment to make to me personally, do so, but don’t include me in your lame generalizations and speak thus from the side of your mouth. It’s impolite.

    I do thank, however, you for your attempt to sound witty and detached, as well as for your analysis. But save it for your own countrymen next time.

  • Jordan Richardson

    You’re a bizarre human being, Roger.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Roger,

    You’re full of shit! I don’t know how else to put it. I have read any number of your comments in the past wherein you practically made it your mission to find some kind of balance in the arguments. You’ve chastized others for being unreasonable and rude. Yet, that is just what you have become.

    Personally, I think Jordan has made some very good observations about this country.

    But, back to my comment earlier, I made a pretty decent argument that many things are in fact getting better, yet you chose to focus only on the scotch comment. I’d say that you have grown a pretty big chip on your shoulder which has made you pretty much a bully, a hypocrite and a bore.

    I don’t know where you hail from, but I can tell you that at least here in central Indiana, and some other places I’ve seen mentioned in various news items, there has been a good deal of TARP funded ditch digging, pot hole filling and much better jobs than that over the past few months. A number of ‘shovel ready’ projects have been given the green light here in Indy and elsewhere across the country. While these jobs don’t represent a long term solution, they DO meet your criteria for short term relief.

    I have been unemployed for a couple of fairly long stretches during my adult life. I’ve stood on line for unemployment and gone through the indignities required to get food stamps. About this time last fall, my business went absolutely in the dumpster. I had entire weeks go by with no work at all. Most weeks I managed but 2 or 3 orders – about a quarter of my normal workload. That lasted until well into March when things finally began to pick up. That was a frustrating and frightening period for both my wife and I. We still haven’t quite caught up. I also watched my older brother go through extended periods of unemployment, and it was painful to watch. The point being – that I get it. I know what it’s like to be jobless. It’s frightenig and emasculating.

    I do think Obama cares a great deal, and yes, I think it important that he does. Frankly, I never felt that neither Bush nor Cheney gave a rat’s ass about anything except the maintenance of their power. It was they who were arrogant.

    Obama is accused of arrogance, and I don’t see it. He has repeatedly preached caution and patience. He was handed a huge shit sandwich the moment he took the oath. We would have all liked to see things turn rosy overnight. It just can’t happen that way.

    I suppose that the Reps will regain a lot of their Congressional seats come 2010 unless some kind of miracle happens and unemployment drops dramatically and the economy is rolling along and everybody is back to concentrating on buying and doing meaningless crap. That probably won’t happen. I can pretty much guarantee that if the Reps regain control in Congress next year, and/or if they regain the White House in 2012, the result will be that less than nothing will get done. They will undue any progress made during the past years, and we will all be made to live under the thumb of the right wing fiscal and social conservatives in service of big business and their big god.

    B

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Great comeback, Jordan.

    As to your show of confidence in that man, good for you Baritone. Believe what you want to believe. But I do see now why the Left has such a deservedly bad reputation: it’s just as freakin’ ideological as any of the bigots on the other side. You just can’t stand criticism, can you?

    Is it really that you were so anti-Bush that anything with a D-name in the White House is good enough for you? Because that’s in the nutshell your argument. And now you’re preaching patience, we’re supposed to sit and wait until the gods smile on us.

    I’m sorry, but I have a different view of leadership. I can’t expect the executive to fix everything, but try he must. Visible results are a must. A change of mood and in general confidence are a must. A different perception is a must. You point to any visible successes on the home front, on the employment front – I dare you, I double-frickin’ dare you. But you can’t. All you can do is ask for patience and point to the inadequacies of the previous regime.

    So yes, I am being freakin’ unreasonable and full of shit, as you’ve so eloquently put it. But I’d rather be freakin’ unreasonable and full of shit than a lame apologist like you and some of the lefties here are turning out to be.

    I hope you sleep well at night while sympathizing with all the Americans who have been put out of work, all those who are still facing foreclosure, while the fat cats on Wall Street have been given a free ride and more funny money with which to screw the rest of us. So ease your conscience any way you will, and keep on blaming the Republicans for the mess we’re in but never, never in a million years, suspect incompetence and lack of leadership from our natural leader.

    Happy dreams.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    And for your info, B-man, let me explain.

    Yes, I am being reasonable and patient with people from the other side because more is at stake than just political views. It’s a matter of turning them around, winning them over, things of that sort. But I don’t have patience with those whose heart is supposedly in the right place. So yes, keep on coming up with your lame excuses and you’ll only prove yourself to be a political hack.

    The choice is yours. And no, I ain’t frickin’ apologizing.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Wow. Somebody’s surly.

    You’ve missed just about every single point of fact and every single valid opinion anyone has tossed at you. I can’t tell if you’re being purposely ignorant or just a drunk cynic taking swings at anyone with a shred of hope and compassion, but I guess if the shoe fits…

    …fill it with scotch and drink out of it.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Your freakin’ intolerance is showing, Jordan. One apparently must agree with you in order for you not to lose your good form; but then again, you haven’t really been excelling in that department lately.

    What opinions and facts am I supposed to have missed? Apparently, it’s you who have been hitting the vino, not I – because my beef is and continues to be the domestic agenda. I wasn’t talking about the feakin’ Nobel Prize in case haven’t noticed.

    And what has compassion got to do with my appraisal of Obama? It’s a twisted logic I’ll never understand.

    Unless you feel that YOU have been accused of lack of compassion for trying to tell me to be complacent and to take things in stride. And now you’re trying to save face.

    Next time, try to be a bit more clever in your disguises, Jordan, because thus far I read you like a book. And don’t be coming back with the stupid references to scotch or whatnot, mimicking B-tone. Can’t you be more original?

    And lest I forget, it’s your picture with a glassful of Gallo, not mine.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    And do feel free to post whatever your heart desires, but excuse me if I’m going to retire for the night.

    Look for responses in your mailbox come tomorrow morning.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Roger,

    Your beef is apparently anything that moves.

    What opinions and facts am I supposed to have missed?

    B-Tone sez (#75):

    “a good deal of TARP funded ditch digging, pot hole filling and much better jobs than that over the past few months. A number of ‘shovel ready’ projects have been given the green light here in Indy and elsewhere across the country. While these jobs don’t represent a long term solution, they DO meet your criteria for short term relief.”

    This is in direct reference to what you said in #69 about a “visible effort.” He brings up a visible effort, you patently ignore it in #76 and dismiss it as though what B-Tone is talking about it some sort of belief or, in your words, a “show of confidence.”

    Others have suggested similar things, with some referencing this supposed need of yours to see a miracle cure. You asked for some “sign” that things were happening, but you ignore them when they are provided for you because you’re so stuck on bitterness that it’s blinding your ability to think clearly.

    Your beef is the domestic agenda, but my comments (almost all of them) reference the Nobel Prize win and America’s inherent lack of unity when it comes to something to celebrate as a nation. Instead of this being an opportunity to draw together, as the Nobel Prize whosits clearly intended, this is YET ANOTHER thing to divide over. Do you really think that’s a good thing? Or would you, like I’ve been suggesting, think it would be preferable to see the Nobel Prize used as an object of unity not just in America but around the world? All eyes are on America, but all you can think of to do is turn this into another partisan issue.

    Talk about intolerance…

    I wasn’t talking about the feakin’ Nobel Prize in case haven’t noticed.

    Roger, I’ve noticed what you’ve been talking about. I wonder if you’ve noticed what you’ve been talking about.

    Unless you feel that YOU have been accused of lack of compassion for trying to tell me to be complacent and to take things in stride. And now you’re trying to save face.

    When did I tell you that you should be complacent and “take it all in stride?” Point that out to me. Just give me one example.

    If anything, I would offer the advice to perhaps lay off the rage and bitterness and realize how fortunate you are to live in America. Instead, you seem obsessed with falling down the rabbit hole with the rest of the spoiled brats. And all after, oh, about nine months? That was quick!

    Incidentally, again, the majority of my comments here have been about America’s potential to use the Nobel Prize win as an object of pride. Instead, it’s been divided and chopped and packaged to the usual partisan quacks.

    Next time, try to be a bit more clever in your disguises, Jordan, because thus far I read you like a book.

    Um, okay?

    And lest I forget, it’s your picture with a glassful of Gallo, not mine.

    It’s a Riesling, actually. Quite nice, too. The wife and I make it ourselves when we’re not preaching socialism and patience to our “countrymen.”

  • Jordan Richardson

    Look for responses in your mailbox come tomorrow morning.

    Yeah. I’ll pass. I’m about done with this one. Bottoms up!

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    By the way, Dave, nice job on the Wikipedia page. I had no idea you designed the font for Lady of the Lake.

    I didn’t know that was in there. Someone must have added stuff from my IMDB entry. Hardly the most notable use of my fonts, but at least you’ve heard of the film.

    Dave

  • Baronius

    Jordan, you have a lot of insight into the US, but there’s one thing you always get wrong. Maybe it’s more accurate to say that you always get it right, but you don’t understand it.

    You said that if the Canadian PM won the Nobel Prize, all of Canada would unite in pride. America never unites on anything. We were founded on a dispute. Then we had this really big war because we didn’t agree with each other. (And that was under our greatest president, a man who was famous for his debates.) Other than that, the only time we even worked together was to kill some Germans who were saying that everyone has to be the same. So when you hear us disagreeing, don’t assume that it’s our weakness.

  • http://marksaleski.com Mark Saleski

    So when you hear us disagreeing, don’t assume that it’s our weakness.

    it isn’t necessarily a weakness, but in modern day america, it has become one.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Baronius –

    Seems like you didn’t agree with my reference to the Wall Street Journal article, claiming “The WSJ article that you claim is nearly unanimous actually represents 27 of 52 surveyed economists (with 5 not responding). That’s 52%.”

    READ IT AGAIN, Baronius – it was FORTY-SEVEN out of 52 who responded…and 52 minus 47 equals the 5 who did not respond!

    What the economists SAID was, “Forecasts were revised upward for every period, with 27 economists saying the recession had ended and 11 seeing a trough this month [August] or next. Gross domestic product in the third quarter is now expected to show 2.4% growth at a seasonally adjusted annual rate amid signs of life in the manufacturing sector, partly spurred by inventory adjustments and strong demand for the “cash for clunkers” car-rebate program.”

    AND IF YOU’LL LOOK, every economist but one said the recession will end THIS year…meaning the recovery begins no later than the first of the year.

    “Every economist who responded (47 out of 52) but one” all said the recession would end this year. YES, that sounds like “nearly unanimous” to me!

    Next time, please READ the article before you trash it. Your FIRST clue should’ve been that it was the Wall Street Journal, and that fact in and of itself should have told you that it’s HIGHLY unlikely the editors would have allowed an article to pass saying the 27 out of 52 was ‘nearly unanimous’.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    Glenn, you’re the one who has been claiming this is the worst recession since the great depression. Maybe you’re just wrong. Given the number of bank failures under Reagan, maybe THAT was in fact a worse recession than this one. And maybe comparisons the the Great Depression are a bit much altogether, since neither recession came anywhere near the 4500 bank closures in the first 5 years of the Depression.

    First, you’re quite alone in claiming that maybe things were worse in the late-80’s recession than now. I’ve yet to see a single economist claim anything like that.

    Second, I’d like to see your reference showing that there were 4500 bank closures in the first five yeas of the Depression…because I’ve seen two references so far showing that there were significantly more in the late 80’s than at any other time in American history…which fact is probably due to there being far more banks/thrifts/S&L’s in the late 80’s than during the depression…but almost certainly fewer than now.

    So, um, again – it looks like the present administration has been FAR more effective in dealing with the current recession than the Reagan/Bush 41 administrations were in the late 80’s, even though the recession now is much worse than that one.

    I refer you to Baritone’s excellent observation: Obama is accused of arrogance, and I don’t see it. He has repeatedly preached caution and patience. He was handed a huge shit sandwich the moment he took the oath. We would have all liked to see things turn rosy overnight. It just can’t happen that way.

    For the life of me, with the probable exception of Abraham Lincoln I can’t think of any Republican president who’s done so much for America just in the first few months of his office.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    OK, Baritone

    To tell the truth, I missed the part of your comment Jordan referred to, namely,

    “”a good deal of TARP funded ditch digging, pot hole filling and much better jobs than that over the past few months. A number of ‘shovel ready’ projects have been given the green light here in Indy and elsewhere across the country. While these jobs don’t represent a long term solution, they DO meet your criteria for short term relief.”

    But here’s a suggestion, If you abstain from being a smart ass and make irrelevant references and come straight to the chase, much of these “misunderstanding” would be easily averted. All you had to do is come straight to the point rather than bury the relevant part of the comment in inconsequential trivia.

    Same with Jordan who apparently is more given to preaching – be it socialism or whatever else. Rather than going on his his freakin’ tirade, he could cite the relevant passage first time around without the need of going into superfluous exchanges.

    Well, it’s good apparently that something is happening in Indy. Well, in my part of the country, Kentucky, there is jack shit. Things of that nature must be talked about, brought to people’s attention, made the most important agenda of the presidency – screw the other shit. This has not been done.

    For all the billing about Obama as a communicator (and I’m not making any comparisons with Bush), it is my opinion that he is a failure. FDR had fireside chats. JFK too was talking to the nation on a regular basis, even did Reagan. But no – either this man has spread himself to thin or he fails to understand that changing people’s perception and the mood of the country ought to count as number one issue. Nothing else matters and nothing will be accomplish before Americans become convinced that something is being done.

    And I thoroughly concur with Baronius about Jordan’s total misunderstanding of the American psyche. As a people and as individuals, we are much more independent and contentious than apparently the kind of people he’s familiar with. We’re not yet a society of ants but of individuals, we don’t essentially believe in socialism where all are made to blend and reflect exact same values, and I say it’s a good thing.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I’m not really sure what those who see disagreement as a weakness would prefer to see. Congratulating war hawks on their peace prize? Pfft…fuck that.

    I’m not sure I am interested in mindless drones all tripping over themselves to be polite to a power that has no interest in their personal well-being beyond assuring there’s no revolt. Yes, America, we should be proud! Please go back to saluting your flags now, everything is A-Okay for everyone here.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Glenn, here’s a

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I am also not very sure where some people are getting any idea that there is some economic improvement. With a ‘fake’ unemployment number at about 10% and 10,000 people applying for 90 positions at $13/hr. I’d say whatever economists think there is improvement are propagandists.

    My house just dropped another 30-50k in value over the last year.

  • Baronius

    Me: I can find some economists who think that things will get better, but not many who think that they already are.

    Glenn: ‘Some’? How about ‘most’, like here in the NPR, or ‘nearly unanimous’ here in the conservative Wall Street Journal?

    WSJ: Economists are nearly unanimous that Ben Bernanke should be reappointed to another term as Federal Reserve chairman, and they said there is a 71% chance that President Barack Obama will ask him to stay on, according to a survey.

    You’ll notice, Glenn, that you completely misrepresented the article. Then, when I pointed out that the article was not “nearly unanimous” about the economic recovery, you said that I was wrong, and switched to claiming that you were talking about an economic recovery by the end of the year.

    This is another one of those occasions when, if you were really devoted to FACTS and EVIDENCE, you’d admit that you’re wrong. I don’t think you will, though, and I don’t need you to. But I’d like you to remember this for next time.

  • Dan

    The Nobel committee has now officially become the collective equivalent of the woman who fainted at an Obama campaign rally.

    Or maybe they feel they have to award him after his nomination to avoid being labled racist.

    At least it’s not as embarrassing when foreigners do it.

    Even if he doesn’t want to, he’s not allowed to keep the money. It’ a rule. Although perhaps Obama won’t be held to the same standards of protocol as ordinary presidents. Normally I don’t think he’s even allowed to funnel the money to his “charity”. ACORN and Rev. Wright may need to look to other sources.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Baritone, Baritone, BARitone –

    What was your original claim?

    “I can find some economists who think that things will get better, but not many who think that they already are.”

    AND THE ARTICLE SHOWS THAT FORTY-SIX OUT OF THE FORTY SEVEN either believe that the recession is over or that it will BE over by the end of the year…and well over HALF of them believed it was over in AUGUST!

    Okay? Get it? Your statement was FLAT WRONG! I’ve proven it to you using a very reputable CONSERVATIVE source…and you’re trying your hardest to find ANY little error to point out. It would be nice if conservatives here (other than Dave) on BC would own up to it when they’re so obviously wrong.

    I’m sorry that you feel that 46 out of 47 isn’t nearly unanimous – but personally I think it fits…and don’t bother admitting your ’27 out of 57 economists’ remark was wrong, because admitting obvious error is not something that conservatives here (other than Dave) do.

    NOT ONLY THAT, but try reading this history of the Great Recession, so you can see how bad it got…and just how quickly we HAVE turned things around during the first several months of the Obama administration.

    The conservatives screwed things up just like in the 20’s, the 80’s and most of the 2000’s…and just like the first two, it’s taking a DEMOCRATIC administration to fix the Republicans’ screw-ups (and don’t try to claim it was bad when Reagan took office…because there’s a REASON why it’s referred to as the ’82-’83 Recession rather than the ’79-’80 Recession).

    Supply-side economics don’t work. Massive tax cuts don’t work. Sensible well-funded and properly-oversighted government DOES work…but such is not part of the Republican mantra these days.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    BIG error by me – the previous comment should read “Baronius, Baronius, BARONius” and not “Baritone….”

    I knew that someday I’d get the two names mixed up. Apologies to all.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dan –

    The Nobel committee is comprised of mostly Europeans, and they vote THEIR opinion of the recipient, and not the opinion of those who hate the recipient. I think I could easily find those who were strongly against Nelson Mandela or MLK Jr. or Ang Suu Kyi receiving the prize.

    Frankly, all the complaining – whining – by the conservatives about Obama’s receipt of the Nobel Peace Price is really starting to sound like sour grapes.

  • Zedd

    Considering that Rabin and Arafat got the prize, I don’t think the end result of the endeavour of the recipients is what dictates their nomination. It seem to be the effort. I think Obama’s Cairo’s speech and his ability to transform the mood of the world by his suggesting that there is hope (and indeed we all know there is). Looking back at the climate a year ago, when we weren’t sure what other calamity would fall upon us and we didn’t trust our leaders and the nations had no respect for one another…. From no where comes this young man with audacity to utter those words and the world changes.

  • Zedd

    My cursor is back jumping around again, expect mayhem.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Not sure the world has changed yet … let’s just say it’s cooled off somewhat. So yes, the Cairo speech must have been the event. In this respect, I agree with you.

    But since you’re apt to disappear for weeks on end, I’ll bid you adieu, and beat you to the punch.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    You have a perfect excuse then. Pretend being someone you’re not and you’ll still be able to get away with it. We’ll blame it on the cursor.

  • Arch Conservative

    The true test of how the majority of Americans feel about Obama will be the midterm elections next Nov.

    The NJ and VA gubenatorial races aren’t looking good for the Dems despite the the likes of Glenn, Jordan and company singing the messiah’s praises day in and day out.

  • Irene Wagner

    It’s Homecoming Day at BC, apparently.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Actually Arch, the latest polls show Corzine at worst even with Christie and some actually show him leading by as much as 5 points. I don’t know about VA, but Obama and the Dems ain’t dead yet, despite your ardent wishes to the contrary.

    B

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Public service message:

    A New Politics of the Common Good (the Reith Lectures, 2009, BBC4)

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    NJ has an advantage over other states. It’s criminal element (those who run the place) are so stupid they can’t seem to hide their illegal schemes as well as those who run other states–they’re constantly getting hauled off to jail here. Hell, some of them act like they didn’t even know there was no tipping allowed for those in public office.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Jordan and company singing the messiah’s praises day in and day out.

    This is really getting weird.

    You guys are so locked in partisan politics that you can’t even understand someone promoting the idea that maybe the SLIGHTEST bit of unity is a good thing. I’m not defending Obama’s Nobel Prize win (I don’t think he should have won it, but I frankly don’t care that much) and I rarely actually defend the guy. In fact, I’m usually pretty damn critical of him. But I also see reality, seemingly, a little better than many people around here and I choose to exercise attitudes of patience when dealing with perhaps the most convoluted political process in the world.

    Expecting things to get done quickly in America is silly, but as has been pointed out there are signs of recovery. Now why is it that, because I help point this out, I’m suddenly a supporter of Obama? Because I want to see my neighbours to the South do well? Because I want to see them maybe actually stop fucking bickering like children over EVERYTHING? That makes me an Obama supporter?

    According to Roger elsewhere, that makes me some kind of naive hippie dipshit who wants everyone to smoke a peace pipe. Ooooookay, champ.

    I think that makes me sensible, quite frankly, and it makes me come across as a guy who doesn’t quite get why the hell Americans have to divide themselves CONSTANTLY down political lines about everything from this bloody stupid award win to Olympic sports to global fucking warming.

    Grow up.

    Nobody’s suggesting, least of all me with my father-in-law cleaning out bus shelters to scrap together a living in Seattle, that things are ducky in America. Nobody, least of all me, is suggesting that people shouldn’t be right pissed at Obama, the Administration, corporations, health care companies, etc. I’ve trumpeted that righteous anger around here CONSTANTLY.

    But I say one little thing about the possi-fucking-bility of being unified over something different, something unique, something that COULD be a point of pride for all Americans (hey, our president won something! Cool!) and I get completely shit on like I’m ignoring everything else and want to unite all the political parties in the land. Are you kidding me?

    To anyone who still stands in opposition to the idea of a little unity over something in America, let me ask you this:

    Where does that get you? Where does this constant bickering get you? What gain is there in packing heat to a town hall and holding up idiotic signs? What gain is there in bitching and whining about EVERYTHING?

    Yes, we’re all in a recession. Yes, we’ve all had economic difficulties. I’ve spent months at a time completely without any incoming pay. It’s the nature of the beast. But I have a roof over my head, I’m using a fucking computer to type my thoughts to anyone in the world, I eat, I drink (hell yes), I sleep in a comfortable fucking bed, and I get to say what I want.

    Forgive me for thinking a little happiness for our blessed circumstances might not be such a bad fucking idea.

    Fucking hell.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “According to Roger elsewhere, that makes me some kind of naive hippie dipshit who wants everyone to smoke a peace pipe. Ooooookay, champ.”

    OK, Jordan, you win. That was a caricature in the first place, outdone by your self-caricature, and now I’m dumbstruck. By the way, I think I have better opinion of hippies than you’ve saddled me with. Actually, my imagery was more of a Pilgrims-Indians kind of powwow, but that’s OK.

    So yes, Jordan, I do get your point; and yes, we all should use it wisely as political capital and a gesture of good will. GW was in a similar situation right after 9/11, but he squandered it.

    Peace?

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Arch –

    The NJ and VA gubenatorial races aren’t looking good for the Dems despite the the likes of Glenn, Jordan and company singing the messiah’s praises day in and day out.

    I’m not sure if you’re aware of this, but there’s a BIG difference between ‘singing praises to a messiah’ (you aren’t Christian, are you?) and DEFENDING a man – especially when the one who’s being defended has been the target of countless false accusations and 400% more death threats than his FAR less-popular predecessor.

    But you know what? Go ahead, Archie! Because as a political organization diminishes, its rhetoric tends to become more shrill…and boy, the Republicans are pegging the meter on shrillness! Why? Your boys are playing more and more to the base, and forgetting to attract the moderates that are crucial to many elections! This has been pointed out many times…and the Republicans STILL don’t get it! It’s like telling a train engineer the bridge is out ahead…and the engineer says “Yeah, so what!” and he keeps on barreling towards his doom!

    So keep on ahead with your inflammatory rhetoric, Archie! In fact, your rhetoric ain’t hot enough! What, izzat the best you got? Man, if that’s the best you can do…you ain’t got NUTHIN’! Bring it!

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    that makes me some kind of naive hippie dipshit who wants everyone to smoke a peace pipe

    Now that would be a cool thing to be. I personally would like to be united over the idea that there should be no suffering. I am happy for anyone who wishes to join me. I am not interested in cheering over the accomplishments of the representatives of evil (i.e. Capitalism).

    I am all for naive hippies smoking peace pipes-whether they be dipshits or not (at least they are too stoned to do much harm). If there are any around I will hold hands with them and sing Kumbaya (or perhaps something more contemporary, but, you get the idea).

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Count me in, but not until next year. Unless I’ll just hitchhike to NJ.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    104 – Roger,

    That is brilliant. He doesn’t go far enough for me, of course. He’s trying to fix the system. But, he has everything that anyone who would not go as far as me, needs to hear.

    Morality? What a novel idea. I’m not sure how anyone like Dave or Baronius can argue with his points.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I especially loved his idea about solidarity.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Right, Cindy, he is trying to do that. Whether the system can be “fixed” is itself debatable (which is why Foucault’s analysis digs deeper but there are still problems with it too.)

    Nothing new about the morality ideal it’s as old as the ancients, just readily and conveniently forgotten. And so is the notion of solidarity – which suffers from bad rap, not doubt, for smacking too socialistic – because you can’t have a true community, especially a democratic type of community without solidarity being an important value; it’s like a glue which makes social life and bond possible. So yes, that’s why I put it under “public service” category, and I hope people will avail themselves. (BTW, posted the links to three previous lectures on the other thread)

    Since I’ve located an old David Jenssen movie, The Warhead – remember him from “The Fugitive” – I’m gonna watch it. Talk to you later.

    And I’m glad you liked it.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Morality? What a novel idea. I’m not sure how anyone like Dave or Baronius can argue with his points.

    As Brandon Heinz hints at in the first question asked after the lecture, the points Sandel makes are essentially meaningless. The abstracts which Sandel raises don’t really have a great deal of relevance in the real world. He also presupposes that Democracy is the standard of government for a contemporary society, when I would argue that democracy is fundamentally inadequate as a basis for government. Sandel also starts from the false premise that it is government which can solve problems and address peoples needs and focuses only on how to do that more effectively. Another failed paradigm of the statist mindset which we need to move beyond.

    On the whole, reading it left me wondering how something so utterly irrelevant could be looked on by the left elite as profound.

    Dave

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Of course this is about Obama Derangement. We’ve seen large swaths of Americans, particularly White Southerners who won’t even acknowlege that President Obama is an American Citizen. That he’s won the Nobel Prize this quickly is sending up blood pressures throughout Dixieland.

    I find it hilarious.

    Now Roger, as far as jobs are concerned, let’s be real about what America has become. We’ve moved from an industrial economy to a service economy.
    Industry was one of the avenues out of the Great Depression, through public works and the war effort. Where are those tools today in a service/retail economy?

    Don’t take my word for it.

    Business Week: A Lost Decade

    “Over the past 10 years, the private sector has generated roughly 1.1 million additional jobs, or about 100K per year. The public sector created about 2.4 million jobs.

    But even that gives the private sector too much credit. Remember that the private sector includes health care, social assistance, and education, all areas which receive a lot of government support. I’ve been talking about the HealthEdGov sector. Take a look at this table:

    10-year Job Growth: HealthEdGov Sector Dominates

    Industry Change, May 1999-2009
    (thousands of jobs)*

    Private healthcare 2898
    Food and drinking places 1567
    Gov educ 1390
    Professional and business services 885
    Gov except health and ed 843
    Social assistance 796
    Private education 772
    Arts, entertainment, and recreation 188
    Gov health 148
    Mining 133
    Financial activities 130
    Utilities -40
    Transportation and warehousing -43
    Retail -91
    Accomodations -119
    Wholesale -166
    Construction -238
    Information -525
    Manufacturing -5372″

    Do you see what I see Roger?

    Don’t get me wrong. I don’t view Obama as the messiah either, but those statistics up there don’t lie. The ultra-rich through lobbying efforts have, over the past decades, shifted the entire US economy into a mode where the human condition itself is the hottest commodity, while maximizing profits by outsourcing labor to exploitative third world markets.

    To be honest, I don’t believe the anybody this side of Jesus could revert the American system back to the way it was, but can some change be accomplished after years of this administration?

    I believe so. That’s why I’m not throwing out the good for the perfect, and I certainly don’t expect everything to be accomplished in 9 months, with two wars, health care reform and the worst recession in 70 years to deal with simultaneously.

    –Cobra

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Thanks for this input, Cobra. I’m aware of course of the deep structural changes we’re undergoing – not only in the political arena but economic one as well, and a truly balanced and even handed analysis should take all of this into account. I was of course just venting my frustration over the job situations. You and I both know that to understand the nature of the problem is not quite the same as being able to do something about it – even in a remedial kind of way.

    So yes, I was intellectually sloppy but emotionally justifiable, because that’s what I was addressing – the need to do something tangible, visible, persuasive, etc., etc., etc., in a remedial kind of way. The structural changes will come about of their own accord, and we can either prepare for them or get caught with our pants down. So yes, in the long run dust will settle as it always does. Still, the remedial problem remains, the public perception remains, the rift and the division we’re facing as a people remain – and these are important issues to address and to fix if we are to progress as a civil society into the truly unknown future.

    Thanks for the data. Certainly something to consider. And yes, I think we are, overall, on the same page.

  • Baronius

    Glenn, this exchange of ours isn’t doing either of us any good. What we’ve said is on record.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    114 – Dave,

    I agree that govt is not the best way to solve problems and address people’s needs. But your ideas (after a few years with you and them), I have concluded are morally corrupt.

    I think Sandel’s ideas of democracy and conversation and the common good and human solidarity appeal to real human needs and values. I conceive a world where each person’s life is precious and deserving of dignity and a share of the wealth of our knowledge as a species. Anything outside of that is unacceptable.

    In your way of doing things, you don’t find it inconceivable that in order to support themselves, midgets could depilatate their body hair and sell themselves to people who want to rape children.

    There is something very, very wrong with your ideas, Dave. They are inhuman. I completely reject them as leading to the depravity of humanity.

  • Baronius

    I didn’t find much to disagree with in that lecture. He kind of used the analysts as scapegoats for everything that’s wrong, when in reality the technocrats are the politicians’ excuses for evading tough decisions. But the gist of his argument is right out of G.K. Chesterton, in the 1920’s, that governance without some agreed-upon goal becomes simply politics.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    What Dave fails to recognize is the validity of Sandel’s distinction between the mechanism of the market and the resultant consequence of market setting norms of behavior. Actually, he does recognizes the validity of the distinction but for reasons of his own, he doesn’t want to come to terms with it. Also, Dave’s criticism of “democracy,” while acceptable in certain contexts,” in the present case only argue for an institution of a form of government whereby the minority – those with property, wealth and power – continues to rule, advocating thus the rule of dominance. What is lost on Dave in his criticism of democracy in this particular instance is that Sandel’s point had to do with a spirited public debate. Thus, the emphasis was on the democratic process, and I reiterate the word, “process.” Coming from a law-abiding citizen that Dave no doubt is, and therefore from his value of due process when it comes to workings of the law, it is rather contradictory, I’d say, for Dave to be pooh-poohing the idea of process when it comes to a spirited public debate. Something to think about, I’d say.

    Actually, this contradiction is resolvable in terms of an comment Dave made on another thread a week or so ago – I wish I’d copied that because it’d come handy now. I’ll see whether I’ll locate it so as to bring it to bear on Dave’s seemingly irrational position.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I’m glad, Baronius, that you agree at least in spirit with Sandel’s presentation.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Me too, Bar. (what Roger said)

    I think Dave is very confused. I don’t support a Democracy, but I do think democracy (or what you are calling democratic process) is one of the best ways that a community can make decisions. The alternative to a community being ruled by a majority (or by consensus is the other choice) is a community being at the whim of a minority.

    Dave, in my past discussions with him, has supported this idea based on the idea that those with the most material wealth have the most at stake and therefore should make the decisions. This presumes that material wealth is the most valuable thing a person could have.

    Those with the most material wealth also, as a group, seem to have the most control over their time (and body). I would say, that as a human being more valuable than a diamond necklace is freedom of time (and body).

    Therefore, those with the most at stake do not seem to be the wealthy, at all. It is those whose time (and body) are at stake who have the most at stake. What could possibly be more objectively important to a human being. Thus, this is sort of like a magic trick by the elite, to replace things that have real value for humans with things that are arbitrary. It makes for both a society directed to consume and a society where one can defend the idea that wealth is the most important thing.

    I cannot reconcile Dave’s ideas of freedom for the rich being more valid than freedom for everyone. I conclude Dave is not for freedom at all, he is for domination of the have nots by the haves.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Disambiguation of ‘ruled by a majority’–I mean all relevant decisions being made with the input of those they effect, not being ruled by a govt as in a Democracy.

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    So are we saying here that unions are the downfall of the american economy because of them trying to constantly raise wages at pace with the economy and ever rising cost of health care?

    or

    Corporate greed driving major business to seek cheap/slave labor outside of the oountry in the nme of the bottom line causing the middle class to collapse without middle wage jobs?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It’s in the eye of the beholder, Jet. If you’re a factory owner, you’ll say the first; if you’re a worker, you’re liable to agree with the second.

    One’s interests tend to define the kind of truths he or she accepts as valid – unfortunately.

  • Baronius

    Cindy and Roger, I wouldn’t get too excited about our agreement. Every time it’s happened before, it turns out that we read the matter in discussion very differently. I bet that’s the case here.

    On a related subject, I don’t know the details of the dispute with Dave that you’re discussing, but I’ve been on the receiving end of some of your presumptions before. Just because you can’t reconcile a person’s position with decent motives doesn’t mean that he has bad motives.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Dave’s motives are irrelevant. Much in the way that if you slowly kill me without meaning to, that really doesn’t help me very much. I am looking at the practical results of Dave’s positions. Dave has defended the wealthy as being those who should be in power and also has defended sweat shops, objectification of people, and degradation of human dignity as a perfectly effective and acceptable ways of earning a wage.

    So, if the culture he values creates a slew of people who are pedophiles and have developed a taste for owning human beings for the purpose of sexually degrading them–then Dave sees that as a market opportunity, not a problem.

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Cindy-you say Dave’s motives are irrelevant, but I’m beginning to wonder if anyone’s are to you and Roger.

    Does anyone without an unabridged dictionary and 95 dust-covered text books to refer to?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Baronius, notice I haven’t gone any further than saying I was glad. It was at best a very cautious expression of optimism – a word to the wise, in other words.

    (Cindy, I may have been incorrect in phrasing things. What I should have said – Dave’s methodology of arriving at political positions is kind of cockeyed. Whether it’s on purpose (in order to obfuscate and keep himself in the dark) or whether it’s inadvertent, that I cannot say. So at this point I’m not yet ready to say that Dave’s is a case of bad faith – willfully and intentionally. I haven’t pressed him that far yet.)

    But you’re right of course in the larger scheme of things. Not only is he an enabler. He’s had ample opportunity, time and again, to examine or even slightly ameliorate his view(s). Yet, nothing of the kind transpired, nor is there any indication that it ever will. Thus far, it had all fallen on deaf ears – no matter what you or anybody else brings us.

    So go figure!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Jet, that was dirty pool. You are taking her remarks out of context and you know it.

    And right, I really don’t give a fuck where you’re coming from? Taking about being sensitive and taking things personally.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    You’ll have to explain your meaning Jet. I’m not really sure what your point is. I suspect it’s a bit of pettiness. You’re welcome to correct me if I’m wrong.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I’m getting the fuck out of this thread. Don’t want to give anyone a heart attack.

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    I simply met that with your obscure references, there are times when you two act as if no one else is welcome once you join a discussion on any subject unless we can refer to googled databases and unabridged dictionaries in ordet to feel worthy of you.

    Oh let those two go at it, anw the rest of us will be over here in the corner with our own discussion.

  • Zedd

    Roger,

    “Pretend being someone you’re not and you’ll still be able to get away with it. We’ll blame it on the cursor. ”

    I don’t know what that comment was all about.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It had to do with your cursor problems, zedd, a two-day old comment.

  • Zedd

    Roger,

    What we forget is how the climate was a year or two ago. We were deeply immersed in dumb land. The world couldn’t budge because America was leading and truly the Emperor had no clothes and was decapitated. It was a really weird time where everyone was pissed and felt like they couldn’t do a dadgum thing about it. Here comes this young guy who wouldn’t (or is incapable off) play by the rules. He didn’t have much to loose so he STARTED addressing issues that American leaders have been too scared to address. Clinton got scared after he felt the wrath of the very real “Right Wing Conspirators” and refused to do much after that, especially where matters of international importance came into question. Then Bush came to power and all hell broke loose. The world was used like a Hollywood set and a perverse game was being played using the worlds institutions like plastic toy figures, to satisfy the whims of spoiled men with a warped sense of reality. Obama says “this is silly, were are going to stop”. The world breaths a sigh of relief and dialogue begins again. Everyone starts to talk about how to get things back in order. – He gets the award. QED

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Jet,

    You’ll forgive me if I didn’t catch that, considering that my conversation, you referenced, was with Baronius, not Roger.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I’m also not sure that your feeling of inadequacy is generalizable to everyone else or what obscure references you mean. I wasn’t aware I said anything obscure.

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Cindy, surely you should know that I’m a complete and utter idiot and have no idea what I’m talking about… ask anyone!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    What the f … are you complaining about, Jet. When I was posting on other thread and people were objecting, Mark Eden suggested that we move on to my own. Which we did. I stated my purpose right off the bat – I was interesting in exploring certain text, and so we started doing that. It wasn’t a closed forum but open for everyone. All the postings were public – they still are – and so are all the links and references.

    It is my or anybody else’s fault now that no one cared to participate? So now you’re coming across and trying to make me feel guilty for pursuing what, I had stated at the outset, was my personal interest. Which, in effect, comes close to saying I should have the right to speech.

    You do know that oftentimes your political or other articles are also very personal in nature, and quite understandably so. And whenever you post those articles, I surely participated in the discussion without accusing you of your motivation – as having to do with your personal interests and concerns. But now you are playing a different tune.

    I hope you reconsider your position and I want to assure you that I never had any intention of hurting your feelings. Certainly not by having a discussion on topics which are of great interests to me. And I hope you don’t expect me to apologize for that, just as I wouldn’t dream of having you apologize to me for being concerned with gay rights.

    Roger

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Roger, surely you should know that I’m a complete and utter idiot and have no idea what I’m talking about… ask anyone!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    No you’re not, and you do know what you’re talking about. But I just posted a response. If you want to ignore it, there’s nothing else I can do.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    The lefties around here are so…crabby lately. Lighten up, folks.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It was a fight in the family, Handy. You know, the worst kind there is.

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Mom always liked you best

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It wasn’t my fault. But I surely enjoyed the ride.

  • Zedd

    Roger,

    Your comment seemed to be about something more than a cursor and I was trying to get you to say what you meant is all… so I can pounce. Haven’t had a meal in a while, ready for a fresh kill!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Sorry, Zullu warrior. Find another water hole.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It should be one “l.” See, you already got me on the run.

  • Zedd

    “130 – roger nowosielski
    Oct 11, 2009 at 12:59 pm
    Jet, that was dirty pool. You are taking her remarks out of context and you know it.

    And right, I really don’t give a fuck where you’re coming from? Taking about being sensitive and taking things personally.

    131 – Cindy
    Oct 11, 2009 at 1:06 pm
    You’ll have to explain your meaning Jet. I’m not really sure what your point is”

    Oh ree-hee-heee-lly? I do seem to recall how a year or so ago when Jet (I’m guessing its the same one) got all emotional and strangely hormonal on me and made all sorts of irrational assertions against me and Cindy and the lot of you (roger you weren’t on BC then) came to his defense simply because he on the same side of the argument, EVEN THOUGH his assertions took on a more personal turn, and were quite frankly oddball in nature. After taking the unfair beating for a couple of days and patiently responding to the idiotic, seemingly PMS induced, atrociously reasoned posts, I lost my cool and told him exactly what I thought of his posts. Well all hell broke loose then, off course and I was the bad guy (or girl). It didn’t help that he ended up going to the hospital a few months later. Sigh.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/fran-parker/ Fran

    Maybe Obama will give his cash prize (isn’t it a million or so?) to the poor… LMAO”

    Good one for sure!

    But who are the poor? Those on the welfare government rolls, or those who have even less than they do, but are still trying to make it on their own?

    I wonder…

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/fran-parker/ Fran

    Great article, Dave!

  • Zedd

    I’ve concluded that either Dave is dense, a liar or shrewed to the point of being diabolical. I think he’d like to see himself as being the latter.

    I’m guessing a dense liar who is harmlessly diabolical. What do you think Dave?

  • Zedd

    Oh come on. Roger. Just a nip.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Am I supposed to respond to #150?

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    #150 ahhh the good ole days

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    OK, then. But it would help if after you post, you’d hang around for a minute or two and deal with a response then and there rather than having to resurrect it after a week, don’t you think?

  • Zedd

    Fran,

    Did you wonder what Rabin, Arafat, Mandela, Aung San Suu Kyi did with their award? Are you a big follower of the Nobeloriates of past years? Have you made a study of the peace prize?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    And apropos #150, you should know I don’t play that game.

  • Zedd

    Jet (I see its the same one yay for all),

    Still feeling a little emotional and wacky?

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Jet throws himself his desk and begins crying hysterically, frantically lookinjg for his pills

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    In fact I think I was around, and to the best of my knowledge, I stood up by you – if you mean the argument about South Africa and the bush . . .

    But perhaps you’re referring to something else. Then I don’t know.

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Sort of like an ex-wife constantly throwing all your mistakes in your face

  • Zedd

    Roger,

    While I like that BC is more updated and I don’t have to feel embarrassed about referring people to it, its not as easy to find ones comments. I often forget which threads that i have posted from.

    I will do better in the future.

  • Zedd

    Roger,

    No. Gay marriage.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #161 convinces me that Jet is back to his senses. Hurray!

  • Zedd

    The argument is not what you think it was about and don’t ask. He’ll loose his mind. Not in the mood for one of his hissy fits.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Oh my goodness. No wonder. You must have walked into the hornets’ nest.

  • Zedd

    @166 – good luck with that

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    “There are few things more dreadful than dealing with a man who knows he is going under, in his own eyes, and in the eyes of others. Nothing can help that man. What is left of that man flees from what is left of human attention.”

    James Baldwin

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Believe me. I ain’t stupid enough to ask. In fact, I’m not about to touch it with a ten-foot pole.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #170:

    Spoken like a true desperado.

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Oh great now you have me fantisizing again

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    He gringo you want to buy my seester?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It all goes to show how a little attention can go a long way.

  • Zedd

    Oh goodness. I’m out. The kookfest is about to begin

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    That ain’t too much to ask, is it, people?
    What the world needs now is love!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Later then, Zedd.

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    I’ve seen a lot of faces,
    and I’ve been a lot of places,
    so I know that I must be goind somewhere,
    The world keeps spinning,
    and I’m always just beginning
    to begin,
    But I never really get there,

    The times and the seasons go on,
    but all the rhymes and the reasons are gone,
    I know I’ll discover, after it’s all overand done

    I should’ve been a nun.

    The smothers brothers

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    hey guys check out how really stupid I am and read my latest astronomy article!

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Hey all you silly kooks. You guys are hilarious! I feel like I’m looking in on the bunkbed room–you kids are jumping all over the beds.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle


    I’m guessing a dense liar who is harmlessly diabolical. What do you think Dave?

    Zedd, I’m remarkably uninterested in the opinions of closed-minded idiots.

    Dave

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Is it a pillow fight?

  • Zedd

    Dave,

    I believe it was your turn to give an opinion per the question. Are you making a confession?

    Z: What do you think Dave?

    D: Zedd, I’m remarkably uninterested in the opinions of closed-minded idiots.

    So… you… are… not interested in your own opinion???

  • Zedd

    I believe its a knock out in the first round.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    In case Fran, Christine and any others are still “LMAO”-ing about the Nobel prize money, the White House announced almost immediately on Friday that the $1.4 million would indeed be donated to charity.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Handy, I heard that too and am very proud. So now I can now delete the LMAO from my statement and say GOOD JOB Obama!

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Good deal Handy.

    (That will teach me to laugh at that Christine’s jokes! ;-)

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Zedd, nice 3rd-grade comeback there. I expected no better.

    Dave

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Ahh, Cindy, you make my day when you laugh at my jokes.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Baronius –

    Glenn, this exchange of ours isn’t doing either of us any good. What we’ve said is on record.

    In other words, you couldn’t own up to your mistake, and you couldn’t admit that you were wrong.

    Yes, I CAN say that, because I’ve done both on several occasions. On the conservatives side, only Dave has done so…twice.

    Takes courage to admit when you’re wrong, Baronius. Takes even more courage to admit when your opponent is right. That’s not partisan crowing on my part – it’s a simple statement of fact. You’d be surprised how much MORE real respect you’d get if you had the intestinal fortitude to admit when you were wrong…

    …and it would do you well to learn to never trust those who don’t have the courage to admit when they’re wrong.

  • Zedd

    Dave,

    It actually wasn’t. You just missed it, off course.

  • Henna

    they keep on killing people and keep on getting the nobelest prizes in the world?? is it justified?? what is going on in afghanistan and iraq cannot be denied by ano one yet, no one it seems is paying heed!!