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Will McCain Take the Gloves Off Tonight?

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Tonight we're due for our second Presidential debate, this time in a "townhall" format with the venerable Tom Brokaw moderating. It's John McCain's preferred format – he's better with the honest ad lib and the quick retort than he is with a set speech – and it's only 30 days out from election day. It seems like a critical moment of decision for the McCain campaign, and discouraged conservatives are shouting that it's time for McCain to "take the gloves off" and take the fight to the enemy, leaving Obama bloodied and broken. If such an outcome is possible and if the McCain campaign has any hope of victory, this seems to be the most opportune time to hit Obama and hit him as hard as possible.

McCain loves consensus and compromise, but in this campaign he has been too merciful to his opponent and too gentlemanly in his criticisms. He has avoided certain controversies and certain topics, and refused to take certain lines of attack against Obama and against the Democratic party in general. Such caution is understandable if he is concerned about being able to work with Democrats once he is in the White House, but he seems to be forgetting that he won't be in the White House at all if he doesn't win, and he's not going to win the election unless he starts playing hardball. We're past the point of collegial rhetoric. It's time to take out the bats and start breaking some knees.

If McCain seriously intends to win this election, there are heretofore taboo topics which absolutely must be raised in this debate. There are names of people and of organizations which must be named and forbidden words which must be spoken. These include:

• ACORN. The new Federal Electoral Fraud Task Force launched a major raid on their headquarters in Las Vegas today. That gives McCain a reason to mention them and to go into some detail on Obama's history as a paid activist working for ACORN front group Project Vote, as an ACORN trainer and as a lawyer working for ACORN's housing program which is suspected of massive misuse of federal funds. The "community activism" of which Obama is so proud was mostly on behalf of ACORN and related groups whose goal is to disrupt the electoral process and promote massive voter fraud, using money taken from the taxpayers under false pretenses. During this campaign Obama was caught making illegal payments to ACORN. A reckoning is coming for ACORN and Obama needs to account for his connections to them.

• Alinsky. Obama's devotion to the radical Marxism of Saul Alinsky has to be addressed. Obama wrote a chapter in a book on Alinsky. His wife quoted Alinsky in her speech at the DNC. Alinsky's son described Obama as one of his father's "disciples." And Obama's supporters have certainly used Alinsky's radical methods in promoting his campaign. Sure, Obama was too young to work directly with Alinsky, but he came up through the radical institutions of Chicago street politics where Alinsky was the patron saint and Marxism was the mantra. Obama may deny his Marxist history, but it wasn't very long ago in his political career that he openly espoused these beliefs and allegiances, and he needs to be held accountable for them.

• Raines and Johnson. It's past time for McCain to take up the issue of the role Democrats played in the demise of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and make the obvious link to Obama through his campaign advisers Franklin Raines and Jim Johnson who helped run those institutions into the ground. Obama was actually considering Raines as a possible Treasury Secretary in his administration – talk about the fox watching the henhouse! It's time for McCain to call for an investigation and indictments to take down Raines and Johnson and anyone associated with them, including Obama. They all need to be held accountable for their role in the current economic fiasco.

• Angelo Mozilo. Bankrupt mortgage giant Countrywide is now at the heart of the corruption which McCain needs to focus on, as is its former CEO Angelo Mozilo. It was Mozilo who engineered sweetheart loans by breaking and bending lending rules for Democratic insiders like Chris Dodd, Franklin Raines, Jim Johnson, Donna Shalala and Kent Conrad. These Democrats profited as Mozilo ripped off stockholders and taxpayers while driving his company into the ground. Countrywide's VIP loan program, which offered loans at far below market rates to "friends of Angelo," was nothing but a system of financial bribery, and the Democrats took with both hands. Mozilo is the target of scores of lawsuits and his cronies in the government ought to be held accountable too.

• Terrorist Ties. It can't be ignored any longer. It's even breaking into relatively mainstream media outlets. Obama has a bizarre history of turning to terrorists for fundraising assistance. Let's just throw out Bill Ayres. After all, he hasn't blown anything up on decades, though his personal ties to Obama are clearly much closer than Obama supporters will admit. Much more troubling is Obama's association with Hatem El-Hady and Mazen Asbahi, both of whom raised money for his current campaign and have ties to terrorism. Asbahi has only marginal ties to the Muslim Brotherhood, and resigned from the campaign as a result in August. El-Hady is the more serious problem, because he was the head of the largest terrorist fundraising group in the US before the government shut it down, and was so closely tied to Obama that he had a fundraising page hosted on Obama's campaign homepage. None of this means that Obama is a Muslim or a terrorist himself, but these associations show such terrible judgment in his associations and such a willingness to turn a blind eye to almost anything for money that Obama really has to be held accountable.

Accountability is at the heart of all of these issues. Obama thinks that with charm and great speeches he can talk his way into the White House without answering for the actions and associations of his past. His political career has been short, and that past isn't very far away. It was only a decade ago that he was spouting Marxist rhetoric, hanging out with Bill Ayres, and helping ACORN defraud the voters and the taxpayers. As the leader of his party he is also accountable for their behavior, and the Countrywide scandal, mortgage crisis, and bailout are current events. He cannot realistically expect us to ignore them. Even the short memories of voters aren't that short.

Obama needs to be held accountable for his past actions, associations and allegiances. It may not happen in a court or in a congressional hearing or even in the press, but this crucial moment in the campaign is the perfect time for John McCain to take the gloves off by raising these issues and demanding that the people hold Obama accountable, in the voting booth if nowhere else.

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About Dave Nalle

  • http://jonsobel.com Jon Sobel

    Nicely done. Couple of problems I see with this as a strategy for McCain, though: Obama can turn corruption charges back on McCain with the Keating Five scandal, which is much more resonant with the public (fairly or not) – at least the public above a certain age – than any of the obscure associations you’re talking about. Second, he can turn any terrorist associations back on McCain with the simple fact of the 9/11 hijackers being Saudi and the close ties of the Saudis with the House of Bush – something which, again, resonates much more than the associations you mention.

  • Marlowe

    What’s a matter Dave – Governor Palin’s arm get tired?

    Gasp! Obama finds inspiration in a community activist who had socialist leanings! I remember that terrible sign being hung around MLK’s neck too. No doubt Obama will next be discovered to have read Gandhi’s writings! Ashrams for everyone!

    And the wrecking of Fannie and Freddie? PPAAALLLEEEZZZ! Let’s start with the strip job the Republican congress did – moving it from being a government agency to a “private” one.

    If I were you old man I’d keep an eye on the bull pin – you’re not much of a “relief” for Palin the Mudslinger (at LAST they found something for her to do that she was good at – nasty sound bites!)

    Marlowe

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Does anyone hear the word “desparation” resounding around Dave and all the McCain butt kissers.

    A few months ago, Dave voiced his total distaste for McCain and even claimed he was considering a vote for Obama. How his tune has changed.

    B

  • dee

    This post reeks of desperation… McCain has already been running the nastiest and dirtiest campaign I have ever seen in my lifetime and its been working so well with McCain tanking in the poles… so please by all means continue to attack Obama… You insult every voter who has voted for Barack throughout the primary and in the upcoming election when you continue to attack him with this crap… all McCain can do is attack however, he and the republicans offer absolutely no substance or detail on any issues that actually matter to a vast majority of the people, all they do is attack and they look foolish… Why can they only attack? because most people don’t like the republican positions anymore… they don’t work and are obviously skewed towards big business and the rich, and unfortunately for the republicans the majority of the American people are not rich nor do they own a business… both candidates have pasts, and that is what they are, pasts, the people want to know what these candidates are going to do NOW about the economy, etc…

  • Cindy D

    Dave,

    Are you serious? If McCain has any brains he won’t take that road.

    CNN Report fact Checks Obama’s KeatingEconomy.com website.

    The Verdict: True

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    dee- Anybody who has voted for Obama richly deserves to be insulted. I’m not much on McCain, but he at least passes the threshold of not being a commie who is happy to make years of common cause with multiple different terrorists. I am befuddled by how it is that the Ayers association alone wasn’t considered an utter disqualification.

    And this tit-for-tat about Keating is utter nonsense. McCain was only very marginally associated with Keating, and has repented of even that profusely. And even if you held Keating’s ill behavior against McCain, it’s relatively minor. OK, Keating looted his bank. That’s bad. But he wasn’t setting off hundreds of bombs and openly making war against his country. He wasn’t trying to kill US soldiers and their dates.

    And they really, really, really need to have HUGE ads and billboards reading

    OBAMA=ACORN
    ACORN=OBAMA
    OBAMA=ACORN
    ACORN=OBAMA
    OBAMA=ACORN
    ACORN=OBAMA
    OBAMA=ACORN
    ACORN=OBAMA
    OBAMA=ACORN
    ACORN=OBAMA

    Goddam ACORN is one of the couple of groups absolutely at the very root of this current economic crisis. They were the racists mau-mauing Congress into making the banks give out a big portion of those stupid mortgages, both with their brownshirt tactics like showing up at bank branches to disrupt business and by hiring lobbyists to put the pressure on banks and Fannie.

    Jumpin’ Jebus on a Frickin’ Pogo Stick, Obama and his criminal, thuggish ACORN buddies should be the very poster children for this mess.

  • Lumpy

    Obama has already trotted out the weakass Keating accusations and they fell flat.

    If there is desperation on the right it is for McCain to stop playing pattycake and really fight.

  • larsbarbow

    I admit I was fooled by McCain when he ran in 2000. Then I saw him sell his soul to Bush, to the religious right, and every lobbyist that waves a dollar his way. Even worse, it’s become apparent that his sexism, racism and frat boy sense of entitlement have been part of his character all along. You should worry more about what your affection for the sleazy old creep says about you Dave.

  • DiannaD

    All four wheele of the Straight Talk Express have come off.

    Now Palin and McCain are sliding on their asses.

  • Cindy D

    And then there is the problem of your running mate starring in “Palin Around with the Secessionists”

    “My government is my worst enemy. I’m going to fight them with any means at hand.”

    This was former revolutionary terrorist Bill Ayers back in his old Weather Underground days, right? Imagine what Sarah Palin is going to do with this incendiary quote as she tears into Barack Obama this week.

    Only one problem. The quote is from Joe Vogler, the raging anti-American who founded the Alaska Independence Party. Inconveniently for Palin, that’s the very same secessionist party that her husband, Todd, belonged to for seven years and that she sent a shout-out to as Alaska governor earlier this year. (“Keep up the good work,” Palin told AIP members. “And God bless you.”)

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    McCain is already doing such an awful job, it’s embarrassing…. jokes falling flat, repeating himself over and over; he looks old, acts old, sounds ridiculous….. he can’t hold his own at all in his “preferred” format.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    First in answer to Dave’s question: No.

    However, on the whole I think McCain did an overall better job. Again, there was nothing dramatic, but McCain was more comfortable and more engaging as was expected. His worst moment was referring to Obama as “that one.” Rather sleazy, I’d say.

    The thing that bothered me most regarding Obama’s performance and to a lesser extent with McCain, is how they rarely go outside of their scripted answers, using the same phrases, the same bromides, etc. that we’ve heard ad nauseam over the last several weeks. Obama failed to actually answer questions more often than did McCain.

    I don’t think that this debate was a game changer. As with the last debate, no one fell on their face and neither rose above the other. When it comes down to it, it was in the end a rather ho-hum affair.

    B

  • Clavos

    I tend to agree with your assessment, B-tone, although the talking dummies on ABC said that McCain’s proposal to have the government buy up all the defaulted mortgages and then reissue new mortgages at the devalued current prices of the properties was a new proposal.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “McCain’s proposal to have the government buy up all the defaulted mortgages and then reissue new mortgages at the devalued current prices of the properties was a new proposal.”

    was that before or after he called for the spending freeze?

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    I thought the buying of the bad paper was part of the original bail out. However, the McCain people are saying that it is a new intiative in addition to the original $700b. Maybe the $700b is just to buyout the CEOs. The conservative base is NOT happy about this revelation.

    The polls show Obama the winner. But, I can’t say that I saw it that way. That McCain didn’t score big, though, I think, ultimately, Obama wins simply because he apparently gave up no ground.

    B

  • http://PoliticEye.com Get Real

    I think that “That One” won this debate (again). If Obama continues on this streak with his cool, calm, intellect persona, he will win this election.

    It’s too bad that McCain has nowhere else to go with his campaign but other than a smear rampage against Obama. Maybe he can’t have a challenging, progressive debate.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com SteveS

    “McCain’s proposal to have the government buy up all the defaulted mortgages and then reissue new mortgages at the devalued current prices of the properties was a new proposal.”

    ^That will probably end up costing him the election.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Had McCain hit on more than the one of my points which he hit, he would have been the clear winner. But his unwillingness to take the fight to Obama in a serious way left him in a near tie which could be called either way.

    There’s one debate left. At this point McCain really needs to decide whether he can allow Obama to cruise into the White House unchallenged or if he will do his duty and point out that the emperor has no clothes, even if it means losing. Just hearing someone with the media’s ear tell the truth about Obama would be refreshing.

    Dave

  • Cannonshop

    Dave, McCain couldn’t hit those points, because he doesn’t Believe them. Did you Hear his “plan” for dealing with the mortgage crisis? It’s Bliffle’s Plan!

    It’s a Liberal Repbublican trying to sound Conservative against a Liberal Democrat with the mainstream media in his pocket and a wonderful speaking voice.

    It’s over, the election won’t even be close, and even if it is, it’s just a difference of degree on how fast the final endgame is carried out.

  • http://www.marksaleski.com Mark Saleski

    do his duty and point out that the emperor has no clothes

    he already has. 72-yr old man parts. icky.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Al:

    McCain: Continued support for deregulation
    McCain: Smear Tactics
    McCain: Incitements to violence
    MCain: Deregulation
    MCain: Association with Gramm (deregulation)
    McCain: Repeated marital infidelity
    MCain: Incitement to violence and desperate tactics
    McCain: Choosing an unqualified pit bull for a veep who whips crowds into a violent frenzy with fear and smear tactics
    McCain: Deregulation (which, of course, led to this financial meltdown)
    McCain: Lobbyists for Fannie and Freddie as his chief campaign advisors
    McCain: “I don’t know much about the economy.”
    McCain: Deregulation
    McCain: Deregulation
    McCain: Smear tactics, mudslinging, lying
    McCain: Deregulation
    McCain: Fake suspension of his campaign to go to DC and do nothing
    McCain: Incite crowds to violence by lying and smear tactics

    *Repeat the above ad nauseum.

    Add into mixture slurs against women, racial slurs, general slurs re “elitists,” pandering to George Bush, voting with Bush for last eight years, changing course just to get elected, his age, his poor judgment in picking Palin just to try and appease his conservative base, his war mongering, his refusal to talk before he bombs, his support of the Iraq “war”, his support of continued tax breaks for the rich, and all in all, you have the kind of candidate who makes you feel, well, all cold and slimy inside.

  • troll

    ‘breathy sincerity’ is grating…my friends

    then again – so is preaching

  • Cindy D

    Cannon,

    Did you Hear his “plan” for dealing with the mortgage crisis?

    From what I gather listening to the commentary after the debate, that mortgage plan is already a part of the bailout package. It’s apparently not new. And one of the analysts suggested that McCain should have read the plan before taking credit for it.

    I think Obama mentioned that it was already part of the plan during the debate. (After he seemed surprised that McCain mentioned it as “his” plan).

    So folks, have fun if we get the old man who apparently habitually doesn’t bother reading briefings, plans as important is this one is, etc.

    Either that or he thinks we’re so stupid, we won’t find out that this isn’t his idea at all.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    I wanted to see a McCain that could at least give Obama a run for his money but what I saw was a slimy snake oil salesman. That “my friends” riff just reeked of insincerity and old school politics.

  • troll

    icky sums it up

  • http://jonsobel.com Jon Sobel

    What a terrible, terrible performance by McCain. Obama wasn’t quite at his best either, but by comparison, it was a drubbing, and McCain partially inflicted it on himself. He seemed tired, insincere, and desperate. With the exception of the Russia question, Obama appeared more sensible, capable, and even knowledgeable on every single issue.

  • Cindy D

    Okay here is some clarification:

    The bailout plan allows the treasury to buy the mortgages, but does not require it.

    Obama suggested they consider buying the mortgages but has not required it.

    McCain has decided to require it.

  • troll

    there actually was a bit of content in McCain’s performance: he clearly stated his goal of implementing (Klein’s) “Shock Doctrine” economics

  • http://www.republicofdave.com DaveNalle

    Cindy, the secessionist lie about Palin has been completely debunked. Why do you lefties keep bringing up the same idiotic untruths over and over?

    As for content from the two debaters. McCain had some – nowhere near what I would have liked to see. Obama had none, plus his delivery was weak. Obama can’t talk issues because to his credit he’s at least a little uncomfortable with the lies he has to tell to get elected.

    And troll, McCain didn’t say one word about the completely spurious ‘shock doctrine’ – nice use of propagandistic stock phrases, though.

    Dave

  • Cindy D

    Dave,

    What lies? There is a video of her right there speaking at their convention.

    How is that debunked? Because she’s not a secessionist? Her husband was a member for 7 years, she attended and spoke at events.

    How is that okay?

    Imagine the uproar if Michelle Obama was revealed to have joined a black nationalist party whose founder preached armed secession from the United States and who enlisted the government of Iran in his cause? The Obama campaign would probably not have survived such an explosive revelation. Particularly if Barack Obama himself was videotaped giving the anti-American secessionists his wholehearted support just months ago.

    Quote is from my link above.

  • Cindy D

    Dave put your money where your mouth is.

  • troll

    Dave – he said quite clearly that because of our economic crisis the gov will not meet its social security obligations at their present rate under his administration

  • troll

    (he of course didn’t put a lot of focus on the goal of privatizing SS – a somewhat unpopular notion with Joe six-pack these days)

  • http://www.republicofdave.com DaveNalle

    Cindy, I refer you to factcheck.org. Palin spoke to the AIP once and was never a member. She spoke to them as a courtesy because they held their convention in Wassila while she was mayor. Her husband registered with the party but was never an active member.

    As for the AIP, it’s a legal political party which espouses an extreme but not particularly evil philosophy. Why should membership even be an issue?

    But your quote is pretty funny, since it’s pretty close to describing the Obama’s actual beliefs and actions.

    Dave – he said quite clearly that because of our economic crisis the gov will not meet its social security obligations at their present rate under his administration

    This isn’t the ‘shock doctrine’, it’s a fact which has been obvious for decades.

    Dave

  • troll

    Dave – the point is he linked the impending cut-back with the ‘crisis’…he has his justification

  • Clavos
  • http://www.republicofdave.com DaveNalle

    troll, i would think that the bankrupt status of the SS fund and the general mathematical impossibility of the model the SS ponzi scheme is based on would be more than sufficient justification for fixing it.

    Dave

  • troll

    hey – the ponzi scheme has worked pretty well to date…and I’ll bet increasing the amount that the owner class contributes would enable the scheme to muddle through for a while longer

  • Cindy D

    Clav,

    That “musical band” that did the debunking apparently don’t actually know how to read.

    In their video they are referencing a vote on a conference report that took place 7 months after the passed.

    Question: On the Conference Report (S.900 Conference Report )
    Vote Number: 354 Vote Date: November 4, 1999, 03:30 PM
    Required For Majority: 1/2 Vote Result: Conference Report Agreed to

    McCain voted yes on the Bill. Biden voted No.

    Question: On Passage of the Bill (S.900 as amended )
    Vote Number: 105 Vote Date: May 6, 1999, 08:14 PM
    Required For Majority: 1/2 Vote Result: Bill Passed

    Here is the page where you can see all votes related to S.900 I think Biden was absent once. Otherwise Biden voted no on everything and McCain voted yes on everything.

    Moral: Never trust a country music band to provide you with the information that you base your decisions on.

  • Cindy D

    I meant to insert “after the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act” bill passed.

  • zingzing

    dave: “Why do you lefties keep bringing up the same idiotic untruths over and over?”

    it’s something called tit-for-tat, dave. you should know this about american politics.

    you bring up some stupid crap that has little to do with anything, we do the same!

    do you really think that obama is going to turn into a government-destroying communist the second he gets into office? probably not.

    do we really think that the first thing palin will do with her veep powers is lop off alaska? nah.

    it’s just bullshit. you know it, i know it, we all know it. but that’s the fucking game.

    so get over it. you are just about the worst perpetrator of this junk on this site, so don’t fucking get all defensive when it’s turned in your direction.

  • Clavos

    do you really think that obama is going to turn into a government-destroying communist the second he gets into office?

    Nope. He already is one.

  • bliffle

    Why do you lie, Dave: “…the bankrupt status of the SS fund…”

    The SS fund has more than $2trillion surplus. It’s had a surplus every year for the past 25.

    Please stop lying Dave.It just makes you look desperate. I know that your candidate is failing and your potemkin capitalism is failing on all sides, but lying won’t save it.

    As for Ponzi schemes, SS simply doesn’t qualify since it takes in more than it pays out every year.

    Apparently, the prime example of a Ponzi scheme is the whole private banking financial industry, which is unable to pay it’s own bills.

    Give up Dave. Save yourself before it’s to late. Give up on the sham Market system that magically transforms itself into corporate socialism in minutes! Right in front of your own eyes!

  • Jordan Richardson

    Obama’s a commie?! Sweetness!

  • zingzing

    clavos: “Nope. He already is one [a government-destroying communist].”

    alright, clavos. you’re obviously just being silly. he’s already destroyed the government? (and i thought bush was doing his best… must have missed it.) and he’s a communist… yeah, he’s really living the communist dream, isn’t he?

    if you’re going to behave like a child, go do it somewhere else.

  • bliffle

    Clavos invents some untruths:

    “Goddam ACORN is one of the couple of groups absolutely at the very root of this current economic crisis. They were the racists mau-mauing Congress into making the banks give out a big portion of those stupid mortgages, both with their brownshirt tactics like showing up at bank branches to disrupt business and by hiring lobbyists to put the pressure on banks and Fannie.”

    Actually, ACORN supported mortgages in Chicago had a lower than average foreclosure rate.

    ACORN has programs to help homeowners and renogotiated mortgages with lenders.

    Seems like ACORN is working OPPOSITE to foreclosures.

    I stumbled on this while trying to track down those ACORN convictions that Dave Nalle has been bragging about (but he never provided a citation for the convictions).

    BestMoney article

    Chicagotribune


    Carolyn Patmon has lived in what she calls her “modest little house” for 38 years. At one point, she owned it free and clear. Then she took out a loan to add a sun porch.

    Because she was on disability and wasn’t working, she was offered a mortgage rate of 14 percent.

    “But the rate was supposed to go down in a couple of years,” said Patmon, 59.

    It didn’t. What the mortgage brokers had told her and what the fine print in the loan documents said were two different things. Within a few years, Patmon found herself owing $115,000 on a $42,000 loan — and being sued for foreclosure.

    Nothing about her story is particularly remarkable these days — except how it’s ending. Because Patmon went to ACORN, a nonprofit community organization with chapters nationwide, she has been able to stop the foreclosure process and is working on having her loan modified to more affordable terms.

    reuters

    Countrywide and ACORN Work on Blueprint for Home Retention and Foreclosure
    Prevention
    Company announces modification of more than 45,000 loans in 2007

    CALABASAS, Calif. and NEW ORLEANS, La., Dec. 21 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ —
    Countrywide Financial Corporation (NYSE: CFC) and the Association of Community
    Organizations for Reform Now (“ACORN”) announced a joint initiative to develop
    a blueprint for home retention programs, with a particular focus on subprime
    borrowers. “Countrywide and ACORN share the belief that subprime borrowers
    who have demonstrated the ability and willingness to make payments should not
    face foreclosure solely as the result of a rate reset,”

    ACORN has been one of the nation’s leading community organizations
    fighting to retain the dream of homeownership for American families. From
    working to pass groundbreaking legislation cracking down on predatory lending
    to lobbying Federal Reserve Chief Ben Bernanke personally in an effort to
    secure stronger protections for borrowers, ACORN was among the very first to
    raise the specter of the looming subprime crisis more than a year ago. ACORN
    has assisted thousands in recent months facing the problems of rate resets and
    potential delinquencies by organizing Foreclosure Fairs in the most impacted
    areas in country. Through ACORN’s affiliate the non-profit ACORN Housing
    Corporation, they have been providing free housing counseling to low- and
    moderate-income homebuyers and assisted thousands of distressed borrowers
    facing foreclosure through their Chicago call center.

    Boy, this ACORN outfit sounds like a really good organization!

    I’m glad that Dave and Clavos have talked so much about it so as to bring it to our attention.

    Thanks, guys!

  • Arch Conservative

    I’d like to say what I hope happens to Obama if he gets elected but I don’t want one of you little secret squirrels or the secret squirrels watching from the trees tattling on me so that next week some homeland security henchman are standing on my doorstep.

    Use your imagination.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Pull the secret squirrels out of your ass, Archie. Horseshit hamsters are more up your, ahem, alley.

  • bliffle

    Clavos, of course, has already forfeited all credibility by volunteering to be Dave Nalles poodle.

    Has Clavos ever offered a citation for his eruptions? I don’t recall it.

    Maybe Clavus is still trying to learn how to use google. Here. I’ll give you some help, clavos: open a browser window and type “google” into the address box, then when the Google frontpage starts up (you’ll be able to identify it because it says “google” in big colorful letters) then in the search box type in:

    ACORN chicage foreclosures

    Have fun!

    Don’t be evil!

  • troll

    Acorn advocates for the working class…nothing like a crisis for clarifying things

    as I type I see that the market continues its wild gyrations…the ‘ownership society’ evaporating before our eyes

    I wonder what % of the population will still be invested when this is over

  • Clavos

    @#46:

    I never wrote any of that, old man.

    Time to take your meds and go back to bed, your Alzheimer’s is kicking up again.

  • Clavos

    I did just what you said here, bliffle:

    then in the search box type in:

    ACORN chicage foreclosures

    And I got nothing!

    What did I do wrong? Oh wait, I KNOW what I did wrong: I followed your spelling…

    Here’s a citation for ya, blittle:

    ACORN

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    I do keep my chi in a cage, but does this mean my house is about to go into foreclosure and what does all this have to do with the seed of an oak tree?

  • Jordan Richardson

    I do keep my chi in a cage

    What are you feeding that thing?

  • Clavos

    I’m impressed, Doc. Keeping a chi is very chi-chi.

  • bliffle

    Boy, I’m SO glad that Dave and his pals have brought up the ACORN outfit! They sound terrific! They’ve done a lot of things in towns like Chicago and Boston and etc., to help homeowners. they’ve bought housing and revamped it for low cost, built new housing in some cases, refurbished HUD houses, etc. they’ve brought in banks to support financing, etc.

    And they’ve been doing it for a long time.

    Here’s another article on ACORN:

    National Housing Institute

  • bliffle

    Oh, so sorry Clavos. It’s getting so I can’t tell you and Barger apart. Watch out when I start mistaking you for Archie.

    You guys are starting to look like poodles from the same litter.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    What are you feeding that thing?

    Acorns?

  • Clavos

    You guys are starting to look like poodles from the same litter.

    I hope you have a live-in caregiver, blittle, you’re so far gone you’re even hallucinating.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Clav, Bliff, I like you but I’m starting to get more than a little tired of all the insults. Tone it down and stay on topic, please, or I’m going to have to bring out the scissors.

  • Clavos

    “He started it!” :>)

    I’m going to have to bring out the scissors.

    Just don’t run…

  • bliffle

    Oh, Clavos, you’ve at least proven that you can read. But why waste the effort on NRO and Stanley Kurtz?

    Anyway, thanks for the citation to an opinion writer in a famous partisan journal.

    “October 7, 2008 7:00 AM

    Planting Seeds of Disaster
    ACORN, Barack Obama, and the Democratic party.

    By Stanley Kurtz”

    Do you ever read anything OTHER than partisan journals.

    I scanned it quickly (have to run errands now) and found the article free of citations, except this half-ass citation:

    By July of 1991, ACORN’s legislative campaign began to bear fruit. As the Chicago Tribune put it, “Housing activists have been pushing hard to improve housing for the poor by extracting greater financial support from the country’s two highly profitable secondary mortgage-market companies. Thanks to the help of sympathetic lawmakers, it appeared…that they may succeed.”

    That seems pretty harmless, even public spirited, community building.

    If you (heaven forfend!) were trying to improve housing of people wouldn’t you go to lenders at some point? And it seems reasonable to ask the Big Guys.

  • Clavos

    Do you ever read anything OTHER than partisan journals.

    Haven’t found any non partisan sources yet, but I DO read lefty journals (Gotta know the enemy), and, naturally enough, I don’t cite that with which I disagree.

  • aRCH cONSERVATIVE

    “Acorn advocates for the working class…nothing like a crisis for clarifying things”

    I read once that Hitler taught orphans how to read. i GUESS HE WAS JUST MISUNDERSTOOD.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Archie, are you ever embarassed at some of the thoughts you have in your head?

  • Franco

    #49 — bliffle

    Has Clavos ever offered a citation for his eruptions? I don’t recall it.

    #62 — bliffle

    Oh, Clavos, you’ve at least proven that you can read. But why waste the effort on NRO and Stanley Kurtz?

    Anyway, thanks for the citation to an opinion writer in a famous partisan journal.

    I scanned it quickly (have to run errands now) and found the article free of citations, except this half-ass citation:

    That seems pretty harmless, even public spirited, community building.

    If you (heaven forfend!) were trying to improve housing of people wouldn’t you go to lenders at some point? And it seems reasonable to ask the Big Guys.

    bliffle, if you had read it through carefully you could not have professed such statements.

    Kurtz’s work is always fundamental, detailed, and verifiable. Of that he has proven himself time and again. Whether he is patisan or not is not the point. The only thing that matters is whether what he asserts is true or false. And you have not addressed it on those merits.

    The article provides detailed citations throughout it’s three pages that reveal a very serious and disturbing issue by placing ACORN at the heart of being one of the key players in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac crises.

    I am not against helping people out, but are the actions of ACRON the way to do that? In what Kurtz’s has evidened, that answer is emphatically no. That is unless you think the bail out is good for all of us.

    From page three of Kurtz’s assertions:

    “At both the local and national levels, then, ACORN served as the critical catalyst, levering pressure created by the Community Reinvestment Act and pull with Democratic politicians to force Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac into a pattern of high-risk loans.

    Up to now, conventional wisdom on the financial meltdown has relegated ACORN and the CRA to bit parts. The real problem, we’ve been told, lay with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. In fact, however, ACORN is at the base of the whole mess. ACORN used CRA and Democratic sympathizers to entangle Fannie and Freddie and the entire financial system in a disastrous disregard of the most basic financial standards. And Barack Obama cut his teeth as an organizer and politician backing up ACORN’s economic madness every step of the way.”

    So not only does this bring up a question to you biffle, it also brings another question for Christopher Rose comment #24 and who real is that slimy snake oil salesman.

    Biffle, can you honestly address the Kurtz’s pieces Clavos linked?

    You are the one that stated…….“Has Clavos ever offered a citation for his eruptions? I don’t recall it”.

  • bliffle

    Clavos frankly reveals the source of his intellectual problems:

    “Haven’t found any non partisan sources yet, but I DO read lefty journals (Gotta know the enemy), and, naturally enough, I don’t cite that with which I disagree.”

    I figured out eons ago that you can’t hope to discover the truth by listening to two arguing liars.

    You have to dig deep and read things like good US newspapers, foreign newspapers, Industry Journals, Engineering Journals and Science. Some government sources are very good, others have had the “cooney spin” given to them.

    Sometimes you’ll get a lead from an opinion journal, but usually they are very light, as you see in NRO, on actual citations.

    I could paw thru the NRO Kurtz article and Fisk it paragraph by paragraph, but why should I? It’s up to Kurtz to do the research and present the citations.

    And I’m still waiting for that citation that will lead me to the ACORN convictions.

  • troll

    Con – I heard that even Hitler was right twice a day…or something like that

  • Franco

    #67 — bliffle

    I could paw thru the NRO Kurtz article and Fisk it paragraph by paragraph, but why should I? It’s up to Kurtz to do the research and present the citations.

    He has done the research and prsented the citations and you have not refuted any of them and thus have not proved even one of them false.

    The only thing you have proved is you can’t address them and come into the arena of discustion/debate on them.

    I assert that ACORN is at the heart of the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac bailout based on Kurtz’s extreemly fundimental citations. They stand as fact based on that evidenct presented.

    You can say all you want, but you have said nothing that discredits this reporting.

    Now ever put up or shut up!

  • Kwaayesnama

    My, my, my, John McCain wants to name former eBay CEO Meg Whitman as secretary of the treasury. This is the woman that feed the eBay seller’s to death and when eBay bottomed out she quit. Years ago when I sold on eBay one of the promises was that eBay would come up with a health insurance program. To date no insurance, higher fees, more regulations and less sales. Today eBay fired 10% of their worldwide work force. This is the last person that should be in charge of the nations economy.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    …but I DO read lefty journals (Gotta know the enemy), and, naturally enough, I don’t cite that with which I disagree.

    I couldn’t help but notice, Clav, that in the Huffington Post article which Jordan links to at comment #717 on this thread, the author supplies a plethora of citations from sources with which he disagrees. The reason he does so is obvious.

    While we’re not necessarily held to the same standards on the comments threads, it’s hardly uncommon practice.

  • Clavos

    I don’t think I said it was “uncommon practice,” Doc.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    No, but you did say it was “natural enough” that you didn’t cite dissenting sources.

  • Clavos

    Yes I did.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    So there!

  • bliffle

    Franco yelps:

    “bliffle, if you had read it through carefully you could not have professed such statements.”

    OK, I read it thru, and I still don’t see any citations except for a rather tame book by Heidi Swartz, which I have not read (have you? has anyone?) and I don’t intend to read, but here’s the review from amazon.

    Collective action through organized social movements has long expanded American citizens’ rights and liberties. Recently, the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN) has helped win living wage initiatives in more than 130 cities across the country. Likewise, congregation-based groups have established countless health, education, and other social programs at city and state levels. Despite modest budgets, these organizations—different in their approach, but at the same time working for social change—have won billions of dollars in redistributive programs.

    Looking closely at this phenomenon, Heidi J. Swarts explores activist groups’ cultural, organizational, and political strategies. Focusing on ACORN chapters and church federations in St. Louis, Missouri, and San Jose, California, Swarts demonstrates that congregation-based organizing has developed an innovative cultural strategy, combining democratic deliberation and leadership development to produce a “culture of commitment” among its cross-class, multiracial membership. By contrast, ACORN’s more homogeneous low-income class base has a national structure that allows it to coordinate campaigns quickly, and its seasoned staff excels in tactical innovations. By making these often-invisible grassroots organizers evident, Swarts sheds light on factors that constrain or enable other social movements in the United States.

    Heidi J. Swarts is assistant professor of political science at Rutgers University.

    “Kurtz’s work is always fundamental, detailed, and verifiable.”

    Yet, there’s nothing in his screed to verify, nothing fundamental and the detail might just be boilerplate to impress the simple.

    ” Of that he has proven himself time and again. Whether he is patisan or not is not the point. The only thing that matters is whether what he asserts is true or false.”

    OK, so how can anyone find out if it’s true or false?

    ” And you have not addressed it on those merits.”

    Neither has Kurtz. I don’t see where he gets his opinions. I don’t see where he gets the facts that support his opinion.

    “The article provides detailed citations throughout it’s three pages that reveal a very serious and disturbing issue by placing ACORN at the heart of being one of the key players in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac crises.”

    The detail proves little, and the opinions salted throughout the narrative are Kurtz’s.

    “I am not against helping people out, but are the actions of ACRON the way to do that? In what Kurtz’s has evidened, that answer is emphatically no. That is unless you think the bail out is good for all of us.”

    IMO the bailout would work better were it applied to the bottom of the system instead of the top. Trickle-down doesn’t work, but trickle-up does.

  • bliffle

    Franco barks (woof woof. He’s such a cute poodle!):

    “He has done the research and prsented the citations and you have not refuted any of them and thus have not proved even one of them false.”

    What research?

    Kurtz gave one self-referential citation, and only one outside source to a book that even you, in your pursuit of certain knowledge, have not read.

    I gave the Amazon review in #76, above. Buy it, read it, and report back if you think it supports Kurtz’ assertions.

    “The only thing you have proved is you can’t address them and come into the arena of discustion/debate on them.”

    Hey, Kurtz and his poodle Clavos initiated this thing against ACORN. They haven’t proven ANYTHING. NOTHING!

    I just related what I found when I started researching ACORN, and my initial impressions.

    “I assert that ACORN is at the heart of the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac bailout based on Kurtz’s extreemly fundimental citations. They stand as fact based on that evidenct presented.”

    How can anyone refute Kurtz when he doesn’t present his sources and citations? It’s just an OPINION until he does. And it’s an extreme opinion so it demands extreme proofs. But Kurtz offers nothing.

    Paltry citations and no evidence.

    “You can say all you want, but you have said nothing that discredits this reporting.”

    And Kurtz said nothing to support it!

    “Now ever put up or shut up!”

    I think that the ball is in Kurtz’ court and it’s up to him to support his widely published OPINION!

    Where is Kurtz’ evidence?

    Where are his proofs?

    It’s all just innuendo and slander until he presents a better case.

    And as for the poodles: why would you be satisfied with second hand opinions? Too much WORK to do your own research and come to your own conclusions? Too daring? Might you come to an opinion different from your prejudice?

  • Lumpy

    My guess is that we’re days away from large scale ACORN indictments. the big question is whether Obama will only be named as an unindictrd co-conspirator or whether his illegal $800k cash payoff to ACORN will get him a full scale indictment under RICO.

    Palin needs to hit this issue like Spiro Agnew on crank and bring Obama down with it.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    Dr, if you aren’t going to trim the truly despicable comment that Arch wrote in #47, spare us your weak threats about bringing out the scissors.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    El B, Archie’s comment was dumb and even offensive but it wasn’t a personal attack. The Doc was absolutely right – and charming about it – in asking the bickering boys to cool it.

  • Cindy D

    As for the AIP, it’s a legal political party which espouses an extreme but not particularly evil philosophy. Why should membership even be an issue?

    I guess for the same reason that being a member of a group that supports social justice and a group that aids the community is an issue.

    If the ideology of the AIP as evidenced by the actions, comments, and beliefs of Vogler*, is not an issue. Then neither is Ayers blowing shit up when Obama was 8 years old an issue.

    *Which include a vile hatred of the U.S. and threats of violence against it, appealing to Iran for support in his mission against the U.S. at the United nations, as well as his statements of the above referenced hatred captured on video.

    And please see my quote about Michelle Obama above. If you actually addressed it instead of ignoring it, I wouldn’t have to repeat myself. I think I made my position clear with that quote.

    Because, I personally really don’t give a flying fuck about what group Palin’s husband belonged to any more than I care about the much exaggerated Obama Ayers connection.

    My point is when you have things that can be “labeled” extremist and “radical” in your own past (likely by twisting them Palin-style) then you (you being John McCain) might not think it wise to “take your gloves off”.

  • Cindy D

    Michelle Obama not offended by ‘that one’ comment

    That Dave, is what I expect of those closest to a candidate I support. Politics or not, it’s the kind of politics that appeal to me.

    Unreasonably trashing and smearing someone with a glint in your eye is not the style I respect.

  • Heloise

    Hey done your homework on my homeboy I see, good article. Today I perused amazon for Ayers book. Too bad he not talking. Dave, we are just shaking in our boots that this might all come out about “Sai Obama.”

    And guess what the gimp pundits are saying about this tact: IT’S TOO LATE BABY, NOW IT’S TOO LATE, THOUGH YOU REALLY DID TRY TO MAKE IT, SOMETHING INSIDE…well you know the rest.

    Why? Because he should have done it way back when he saw Hillary coming around the mountain instead of Barack coming around the mountain. Or, or, was it because McCain had a late-term meltdown in his camp? In fact, as a conservative he nearly had an aborted campaign…LOL.

    Therefore, funny honey he made the exact same strategical error that our gal Hill did: NO crystal or manly balls!

    He did not see it coming…bottom line.

    Heloise

  • Cindy D

    In fact, Dave, Todd Palin’s membership in a secessionist group might be admirable. I don’t know enough about it to have an opinion. But, I know I would support some Hawaiian Sovereignty proponents.

    I am merely beyond offended at the all out smearfest. While jabs and criticism are to be expected even applauded. It’s not becoming of candidates to just engage in all-out swiftboating tactics.

    It says something about who they are. And I don’t like it.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    Chris, no where did I say Arch’s comment was a personal attack. However I will submit that wishing for a President’s death certianly falls under the following taken from the Official Comment policy:

    “we reserve the right to edit/delete comments that are some combination of pointlessly vulgar, vile, cruel, without redeeming qualities, and an embarrassment to the site.”

  • http://www.republicofdave.com DaveNalle

    Cindy, there’s a huge difference between a very informal connection to a fringe group which exists on in Alaska and has very little infleunce even there and Obama’s past employment by and current support of a huge nationwide organization which is a direct threat to the integrity of our electoral process and has engaged in massive fraud and racketeering not to mention many lesser crimes.

    Dave

  • Cindy D

    Dave,

    In a word. Bullshit.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com DaveNalle

    Bliffle, don’t you remember Al Gore’s lock box? Next you’ll be denying the existence of ManBearPig!

    All Social Security has is meaningless IOUs. There are no real assets in the ‘trust fund’, no investments, no potential for growth, just some hollow promises.

    And here’s something you probably haven’t considered. With the ongoing devaluation of the dollar, what do you think the effect is on the point where the government can no longer afford to meet Social Security’s obligations? Since the IOUs SS is based on are in dollars, with every year of currency deflation and cost inflation they lose value, so the system which was set to stop functioning around 2042 will likely grind to a halt at least a decade earlier and even sooner if the economy doesn’t right itself soon.

    And don’t even think about Medicaid. Belly up before we get a chance to vote Obama out of office on his ass if he has his way.

    dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com DaveNalle

    Cindy, you can cry ‘bullshit’ all you like, but denial isn’t going to get you anywhere. The ACORN raid is already all over the MSM and they’re starting to bring up Obama’s fraudulent funds transfer to ACORN again already.

    Are you aware that one of the main things which kept the first bailout from passing congress was that it included federal funds for ACORN? Once that was taken out the new bailout was passable, though still horribly flawed.

    The arrogance of Demcorats who would try to funnel federal funds to a partisan organization like ACORN is truly staggaring. They think they can get away with anything.

    But as I say in the article, the time for accountability is NOW.

    Dave

  • http://www.marksaleski.com Mark Saleski

    …and an embarrassment to the site.”

    that bar has been set very low.

  • Cindy D

    Okay Dave here you go:

    Begala “McCain tied to ultra-right wing racist group”

    Begala said, “This guilt by association path is going to be trouble ultimately for the McCain campaign. You can go back — I have written a book about the candidate. A dozen researchers go through him. I didn’t even put this in the book. John McCain sat on a board.

    “It was the U.S. Council for World Freedom. It was chaired by a guy named John Singlaub who wound up involved in the Iran Contra scandal. It was an ultra conservative right-wing group.

    “The Anti-Defamation League, in 1981 when McCain was on the board, said this about this organization. It was affiliated with the World Anti-Communist League, the parent organization which ADL said had increasingly become a gathering place, a forum, a point of contact for extremists, racist and anti-Semites.”

    Is this John McCain? I don’t think so Dave. Begala doesn’t think so.

    Is Obama a terrorist’s pal? I don’t think so. You’re telling me you actually think so Dave?

  • bliffle

    Dave sez:

    “…Obama’s past employment by and current support of a huge nationwide organization which is a direct threat to the integrity of our electoral process and has engaged in massive fraud and racketeering not to mention many lesser crimes.”

    What organization is THAT , Dave?

    Can you produce proofs of any of this?

    Or is it just slander and innuendo?

    Produce proof or hold your peace!

    More of this crap just fingers you as an inveterate liar.

  • Clavos

    …and an embarrassment to the site.”

    that bar has been set very low.

    And, in the spirit of upholding and respecting the First Amendment, justifiably (and commendably) so.

  • bliffle

    Dave claims hysterically:

    “All Social Security has is meaningless IOUs. There are no real assets in the ‘trust fund’, no investments, no potential for growth, just some hollow promises.”

    Are you saying that USA Treasury Notes are “meaningless IOUs”?

    Are you saying they are “hollow promises”?

    Is this the message you want to send to the rest of the world? To our allies? To our enemies? To our Chinese bondholders?

    Or do you just intend to discourage USA citizens, so they are content to be cheated by the next crooked administration?

    IMHO you’ve lost it Dave. IMO you’re so upset at the utter failure of your beloved Bush administration and the sham capitalism it represents that you’ve gone bonkers.

    I suppose the final straw was when your stocks failed.

    Now, in your rage, are you trying to pull down everything around you in desperation?

    But you’re not strong enough, Dave.

  • bliffle

    Franco:

    How about some proof of Kurtz’ assertions?

    I don’t SEE them. Have you retired from the debate?

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    @ #79:

    El B, the bits in the comments policy about ‘pointlessly vulgar’, ‘an embarrassment to the site’ etc are highly subjective in their interpretation. As such the comments editors need to approach them with a lighter hand; unlike personal attacks, which are much easier to identify.

    Even then, Chris and I prefer to keep offenders on a long leash if possible. The Clavos-Bliffle feud, which we could have taken the hatchet to a long time ago, was becoming tiresome and distasteful, and I felt it was time to ask them to knock it off.

    As for Archie: you know as well as we do that apart from Moonraven and the unlamented JOM, he is our most heavily edited commenter. He gets away with a lot which wouldn’t be tolerated on other sites, but rest assured his most egregious outpourings are smacked down.

    By his standards, neither I nor Chris saw anything particularly horrendous about the comment you object to.

  • bliffle

    Inspired by Daves incessant accusations against ACORN and Obama, I did some googling and found this:

    Pittsburgh trib:

    Obama to amend report on $800,000 in spending
    By David M. Brown
    TRIBUNE-REVIEW
    Friday, August 22, 2008

    U.S. Sen. Barack Obama’s presidential campaign paid more than $800,000 to an offshoot of the liberal Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now for services the Democrat’s campaign says it mistakenly misrepresented in federal reports.

    An Obama spokesman said Federal Election Commission reports would be amended to show Citizens Services Inc. — a subsidiary of ACORN — worked in “get-out-the-vote” projects, instead of activities such as polling, advance work and staging major events as stated in FEC finance reports filed during the primary.

    FEC spokeswoman Mary Brandenberger said it is not unusual for campaigns to amend reports, even regarding large sums of money.

    Is that all there is?

  • Les Slater

    I was in the U.S. Air Force from 1961 to 1965. I started out pro-war and in 1963 volunteered for combat duty. I was a right winger and voted for Barry Goldwater in 1964 and was a fan of Ronald Regan. Toward the end of my enlistment in November 1965 I was questioning the legality of the war. I didn’t have all the answers but there were some obviously troubling factors that no honest thinking person could ignore. I was actually thinking that those participating in attacks against North Viet Nam could be considered war criminals.

    Later, the Pentagon Papers showed that the justifications were lies and fabrications. The U.S. had no legal basis for the aggression against any sovereign country in the region.

    I do not, nor have I ever, held any enlisted soldier responsible for the crimes committed by the U.S. government. My view of the officer caste is somewhat different. The culpability varies from zero to full.

    In John McCain’s case I have to consider his family background. Both his father and grandfather were four-star Navy Admirals. He may or may not have been the most politically conscience but he did enroll in the Naval Academy without any coercion. He was interested, and read much, of history. He could not have been totally ignorant of the imperialist nature of the Viet Nam war.

    In my opinion he is at least somewhat culpable of participating in crimes against the Vietnamese people.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com DaveNalle

    Is that all there is?

    You’ve got the basic facts, bliffle, but you seem to have missed the important implications. Bad enough that Obama is being allowed to change his FEC filing to make his payments appear legal when they may not have been, the fact that he’s underwriting a group whose main activity is to buy votes and register people fraudulently really ought to give you pause? Is the kool-aid really THAT strong?

    Dave

  • bliffle

    “implications”, Dave? Fantasies, more likely.

    “FEC spokeswoman Mary Brandenberger said it is not unusual for campaigns to amend reports, even regarding large sums of money.”

    “…a group whose main activity is to buy votes and register people fraudulently …”

    ACORN has never been convicted of buying votes or registering people fraudulently. They HAVE turned in employees who defrauded ACORN with false reports.

    You’re grasping at straws Dave.

    What’s the matter, feeling desperate?

    Go back to the guys who give you this McCarthyist crap and tell them it isn’t working!

    You might also tell them that this false accusation (which you apparently never checked out yourself) has demolished what little credibility you might have had at BC.

  • Arch Conservative

    “Chris, no where did I say Arch’s comment was a personal attack. However I will submit that wishing for a President’s death certianly falls under the following taken from the Official Comment policy: ”

    Did I say I wished Obama would die while in office if elected, because I don’t remember writing that.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Post #47 was pretty creepy, Arch. What DID you mean?

  • Les Slater

    What McCain actually did in Vietnam was far worse than anything Bill Ayres was ever accused of.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Agreed, Les. McCain’s “palling around” with G. Gordon Liddy is certainly incredibly problematic as well. And Palin’s association with witch hunters and secessionists is pretty disturbing.

  • troll

    agreed

  • Les Slater

    John McCain will not become president because he, Sarah Palin and their eBay economics are an embarrassment to the majority of the U.S. ruling class.

  • bliffle

    Talking about McCain (I didn’t bring it up) there’s a different view of McCains “heroism” in a recent Rolling Stones:

    Rolling Stones


    In its broad strokes, McCain’s life story is oddly similar to that of the current occupant of the White House. John Sidney McCain III and George Walker Bush both represent the third generation of American dynasties. Both were born into positions of privilege against which they rebelled into mediocrity. Both developed an uncanny social intelligence that allowed them to skate by with a minimum of mental exertion. Both struggled with booze and loutish behavior. At each step, with the aid of their fathers’ powerful friends, both failed upward. And both shed their skins as Episcopalian members of the Washington elite to build political careers as self-styled, ranch-inhabiting Westerners who pray to Jesus in their wives’ evangelical churches.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    Of course not, Arch. That’s why you were worried about writing your wish out, because govt officials investigate pleasant dreams. Lucky for you, the comment editors find redeeming value in wishing harm on a future President. I am sure Technorati is proud.

    “rest assured his most egregious outpourings are smacked down.”

    That’s clearly not true as evidenced by #47.

  • Clavos

    I wished harm on LBJ every night I was in Vietnam…

  • Arch Conservative

    I meant that John McCain would be doing the entire nation a favor if he showed up at Obama’s inauguration clad in a big puffy goose down jacket….his right hand reaches out to Obama, perhaps to offer a congratulatory handshake….but’s what his left his clenching in the pocket of that big puffy jacket…could it be..yes it looks like a detonation device

    “I got your change right here bitch” McCain says he steps into Obama

    I think I meant something like that

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Nonsense, El B. Creepy as that comment (and his #110… he’s clearly been watching too many Chuck Norris movies) may be, but they’re very far from his finest (ahem) work and furthermore, there’s nothing in either the comments policy or the laws of the nation to say that one may not wish harm on a presidential candidate.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    yes, you have made quite clear you find redeeming value in comments like that. No need to repeat yourself.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    I did not say that I found redeeming value in it; merely that it does not cross into the realm of the unacceptable, as far as the comments policy goes.

    There’s no redeeming value in my armpit hair either, but nevertheless I don’t shave it.

  • Les Slater

    Arch’s #110 indicates that he gives McCain about one snowball’s chance in Hell of wining the presidency.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com DaveNalle

    ACORN has never been convicted of buying votes or registering people fraudulently. They HAVE turned in employees who defrauded ACORN with false reports.

    So ACORN uses their employees as scapegoats when they get caught. Big surprise from a group which advocates raising the minimum wage but pays minimum or sub-minimum wages to their workers.

    When ACORN gets caught in dozens of states registering fraudulent voters it’s ludicrous to write it off as a coincidence or just something their employees are doing.

    As for my credibility, telling the truth will only help it with those who care about the truth, bliffle. Having no credibility with bliffle is like the stamp of approval from the National Board of Reason.

    Dave

  • Cindy D

    Come on people now,
    Smile on your brother,
    Everybody get together,
    Try to love one another,
    right now.

    OBAMA 2008!

    CYA LATER REPUBLICANS AND OTHERS WHO ARE NOT HEALTHY FOR CHILDREN AND OTHER LIVING THINGS.

  • Cindy D
  • http://www.marksaleski.com Mark Saleski

    So ACORN uses their employees as scapegoats when they get caught.

    somehow, i think you’d be able to twist somebody helping a little old lady cross the street into being an incident of abuse of the elderly.

  • http://www.marksaleski.com Mark Saleski

    Having no credibility with bliffle is like the stamp of approval from the National Board of Reason.

    c’mon dave. just come right out and say he’s stupid like clavos did. you know that’s what you mean.

    oh, our editorial staff is something to be proud of.

  • Pablo

    Mark,

    Thats the best comment I have read on this thread. thanks :)

    Dave as in the Emperor Has No Clothes, must be gettin a bit “shilly” down there in Texass.

  • bliffle

    Archie reveals himself as a Terrorism supporter (might have guessed it):

    ..yes it looks like a detonation device

    “I got your change right here bitch” McCain says he steps into Obama

  • Clavos

    oh, our editorial staff is something to be proud of.

    Including you, saleski?

  • http://www.marksaleski.com Mark Saleski

    i’m not an editor clavos.

    i also don’t call people stupid.

  • Clavos

    i also don’t call people stupid..

    Not even when they call you stupid?

    How noble of you.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com DaveNalle

    But Mark, I don’t think Bliffle is stupid. I think he’s misguided.

    I don’t think anything at all about him as an editor because he doesn’t write articles for BC, just comments.

    I realize you have a bee in your bonnet about editors commenting on BC, but the point you’re missing is that the comments section is inherently separate from our roles as editors. Nothing we say here has any influence on what we do as editors, and if you can find an example of either I or Clavos misbehaving as editors I urge you to bring it to the attention of Eric or Lisa. You seem not to grasp the idea that some people can separate their personal feelings from their professional behavior.

    And Mark, I don’t generally call people stupid either. But maybe both of us should consider doing it now and then, because the truth is that some people ARE stupid or at least behave like they are or say stupid things, and maybe we do them and the world a favor to draw attention to it.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com DaveNalle

    So ACORN uses their employees as scapegoats when they get caught.

    somehow, i think you’d be able to twist somebody helping a little old lady cross the street into being an incident of abuse of the elderly.

    Well, if ACORN was involved I’d sure take a hard look at it. BTW, did I mention that ACORN paid some of their workers in crack?

    I couldn’t make this stuff up if I tried.

    Dave

  • bliffle

    “did I mention that ACORN paid some of their workers in crack?

    I couldn’t make this stuff up if I tried.”

    That’s pretty shocking, so I assume you’ve got a good citation. What is it?

  • bliffle

    Dave sez:

    “But Mark, I don’t think Bliffle is stupid. I think he’s misguided. ”

    By whom, o reader of minds? Who do you think is guiding me into error?

    Incidentally, I didn’t say Clavos is stupid, I cautioned him from acting stupid. Although, I could have said “don’t be obtuse” which I thought was more apt, but i wasn’t sure what he’d make of it.

    I don’t think people are dumb, but I think many are lazy, as evidenced by the generally uninformed nature of their arguments.

    IMO a hazard of being smart is that it can lull people into being lazy simply because smart people can usually elude consequences of their laziness. I’ve done it, and so have a lot of other people whom I’ve observed. YMMV.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “Nothing we say here has any influence on what we do as editors, and if you can find an example of either I or Clavos misbehaving as editors I urge you to bring it to the attention of Eric or Lisa.”

    This is where one of the old commentors would bring up the “Vox Populi” incident for those playing along at home.

  • bliffle

    Forget the Vox Populi incident. It’s perfectly understandable that a guy would use a different AKA on a different machine. Anyhow, I don’t think Vox Pop used the opportunity to inflate his own hit count.

  • zingzing

    oh jesus. oh lord. i pray to thee. make this comment thread less stupid. with your almighty wand. not that one… god sure did smile upon you, didn’t he? fucking partisan.

  • Cannonshop
  • Les Slater

    It would be an embarrassment for Sarah Palin or John McCain to go to Miami and lecture about terrorist associations. It would not only cause unease among some but also downright resentment.

  • troll

    hey Les – how goes the creation of ‘your’ worker’s party – ?

    we’re gonna need it pretty quick here

  • troll

    (…without it all of the ‘nationalization’ that we are witnessing will result in iron-fisted fascism to replace the present velvet-glove version)

  • Les Slater

    troll,

    “…how goes the creation of ‘your’ worker’s party – ?”

    I took the campaign to Detroit. Many ordinary people were quite enthused however I could not find anyone with any resources, leadership within the working class to buy into it. The most common response was something to the affect, ‘You’re right but not right now.’

    I pushed real hard, not only in Detroit, but various political meetings around the country. I was averaging 3,200 miles a month on my car.

    I’ve been watching the accelerating crisis of capitalism for some time. It more than crossed my mind that a meltdown could happen before the ’08 elections. It would have been good to have a workers party established.

    I moved to Chicago in late April of this year. I am still advocating a workers party which has been gaining in popularity. The need for a ‘labor party’ has become a central theme of the Socialist Workers Party presidential and local campaigns.

    A workers party is very much needed but we have more pressing needs at the moment.

    The banks have demonstrated an UNWILLINGNESS to operate. It has become necessary to fully nationalize some of their functioning. The first aspect is that all mortgage paper should be taken out of private hands. All foreclosures need to be stopped and recent foreclosures reversed. All debt secured by rental property needs to likewise be nationalized.

    The next thing is all short term loans needed to keep essential industry and farming working needs to be provided directly by the treasury.

    All of this needs to be fully transparent and the weight of the working class needs to be politically directed at wresting control from the capitalist class.

    Les

  • troll

    It would be an embarrassment for Sarah Palin or John McCain to go to Miami and lecture about terrorist associations.

    …the Weathermen’s terrorism was simply a mirror of the terrorism employed by governments

    Ayers was sucked in by the so-called ‘revolutionary’ bullshit

    we the people need to focus on feeding housing and clothing ourselves

  • Clavos

    we the people need to focus on feeding housing and clothing ourselves

    That’s been my primary focus all my life, and I haven’t starved or slept under an overpass yet.

  • troll

    A workers party is very much needed but we have more pressing needs at the moment.

    I agree – workers should be contemplating the coming expropriation following the meltdown

    nothing should be left fallow or to rot

    That’s been my primary focus all my life, and I haven’t starved or slept under an overpass yet.

    keep up the good work – !

  • troll

    (…needless to say (so I’ll say it) I’m not secure in the concept of a ‘soft landing’ even with all of Les’ suggestions implemented)

  • bliffle

    Cannon,

    Thanks for the documents.

    I just went thru the affidavit for search warrant and it’s very interesting. Apparently, Nevada issues blocks of Voter Reg Forms to agencies, like ACORN, that have pre-assigned serial numbers for tracking. ACORN has an extensive computer system and they take in paper forms and scan them into their database as audit trail. For example, they can detect dupes that “Field registrars” could have fraudulently made at a copying machine.

    ACORN had detected several frauds and fired several of those temporary Field Registrars.

    When forms are submitted to the State Of Nevada there is a pretty good check for problem registrations, address checks, license checks, etc. Investigators even interview a sample of people on the forms.

    ACORN cooperated with Nevada in their investigations. This allowed Nevada to find and interview (I don’t know if charges were pressed) several Field Registrars who had submitted phony forms.

    Nevada doesn’t seem to accuse ACORN itself of criminal activity, or even of reluctance to help investigators.

    The affidavit doesn’t accuse ACORN of criminal activity.

    The affidavit doesn’t give any specific reason for taking the ACORN records

    I suspect that the warrant was issued just for completeness, just to make sure Nevada had all it needed to proceed with prosecution against field registrars who faked registrations.

    It’s a very interesting read, but there is nothing in the affidavit (that I could see) that would indicate ACORN criminal activity.

    YMMV.

  • Les Slater

    troll,

    ”I’m not secure in the concept of a ‘soft landing’…”

    It’s not a question of a soft landing. There is NO solution for the crisis of capitalism.

    The real question is how will the working class defend itself, and ultimately, take power. The question of taking power is now posed in the concrete.

    The first proposal of nationalizing mortgage debt, including that of rental property, really poses the necessity of nationalizing housing, at least that portion which the majority of us depend on. The ‘value’ of real estate is for the most part artificial. It is highly inflated. There needs to be a separation between the speculative ‘value’ and the amount occupants pay for their residence. Payment should be based on affordability.

    The biggest obstacle facing the working class at the moment is unemployment. The banks are UNWILLING to finance industry and farming to the extent that is necessary. We should demand that these criminals be moved out of the way and that the treasury directly finances short term needs for the operation of necessary production.

    Workers need to see the financial workings of the industries where they work. Open the books.

    None of this is going to solve the problem. We need a comprehensive unemployment compensation plan that is not just a pittance, nor with any time limits. The work week needs to be shortened so that more workers will have access to available work. This with absolutely no reduction in pay.

    Healthcare should be provided free for all.

    None of this takes the place of a workers party. As we fight for the above, not only will the necessity of a workers party be seen, and the means to get there, but the actual building of such a party will begin to take place.

    We need to take power, and we will. It will not be easy, and a ‘soft landing’ will not be the goal.

    Les

  • Clavos

    Is there any place in your workers party paradise Les, for those of us who would like to be supported by the state, but prefer not to work?

    I have never seen any value in work, other than the need to eat and therefore earn money.

    If the state will house, feed and clothe me gratis, asking nothing in return but my vote, I’m on board.

  • bliffle

    I read The Examiner article, too. Here’s my synopsis:

    For instance, The Wall Street Journal reported that an Ohio ACORN worker was given crack cocaine in exchange for fraudulent voter registration cards.

    The provenance of this report is impossible to check since Examiner doesn’t provide a citation to the WSJ report. We have no way to chek it out and discover the villains: who paid in crack and was it ACORN policy.

    Many of the newly registered voters were deceased, underage or were named Mary Poppins, Dick Tracy or Jive Turkey.

    If a registration form is submitted to ACORN they MUST pass it on to the state, else they might be suppressing a legit registration. For all they know, Poppins, Tracy and Turkey may live in that district. they simply don’t have the right to reject registrations. The state must exercise the same checks that they would for any other registration. The state has the info and the rights to query registrations, not ACORN.

    When fraudulent registrations are found (by the state) ACORN must cooperate with the state to identify the fraudsters. Which they seem to do.

    In Minnesota, authorities founds hundreds of voter registration cards in the trunk of a car owned by a former ACORN worker suspected of registering voters twice so he could double his fees.

    In Colorado, one woman admitted to a local television station that she was forging names on voter registration cards in order to help her now-convicted boyfriend collect a $50 bounty for newly registered voters. These incidents were widely reported in the 2004 presidential campaign.

    Individuals committing fraud or their own reasons. No suggestion of ACORN inspiration or participation.

    We all remember the long voter lines in Ohio in 2004. The problem was so systemic that the House of Representatives held hearings into the possibility of statewide voter disenfranchisement. Local county officials testified that one problem was the practice by ACORN operatives of dropping stacks containing thousands of voter registration forms on county registrar desks just before the voter registration deadline.

    That’s legal. Before the deadline. One expects that ACORN would want to accumulate as many registrations as possible before submitting them. It’s up to the state to set reasonable deadlines, and perhaps even to allow some kind of trickle-in system to get the QC checks going earlier.

    Officials reported that they were harried and overwhelmed by the practice, which made it harder for them to protect the integrity of the ballot.

    So maybe they should have more workers. It’s NOT a solution just to hold off registrations that may be valid.

    There are many other stories of voter registration improprieties by ACORN workers. In Wisconsin, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Tennessee investigations are ongoing, and some workers have been convicted of voter fraud.

    Yes, and ACORN has cooperated in prosecuting. Also, ACORN has preemptively fired workers found to be cheating.

    Is it a coincidence that in Missouri, site of the current indictments, Democrat Claire McCaskill is in a closely contest Senate race with Republican incumbent Jim Talent? Some 20,000 questionable voter registration forms were turned in by ACORN officials.

    Questionable? It looks to me like EVERY registration form is questionable, i.e., should be checked out, even if only by sampling. What the article doesn’t tell us id how many of the ‘questionable’ forms were actually fraudulent. And does that differ in percentage from other sources of reg forms. For example, the LWV and various civic groups like churches also have registration drives.

    Fox News has reported that Kansas City election officials became suspicious of 15,000 registrations when they noticed the name of one person who was registered with the same signature three times under three addresses, social security numbers and birthdays.

    Again, how many of the ‘suspicious’ regs were actually frauds, and how does that compare to other sources.

    The St. Louis Board of Elections is currently investigating another 5,000 questionable registrations submitted by ACORN operatives. These have been turned over to federal investigators from the Justice Department.

    Did any charges/convictions proceed from the investigation?

    Last month, the Missouri state Supreme Court ruled unconstitutional a law that required voters to submit photo identification at polling locations. ACORN was a plaintiff behind the challenge to the state law. With 15,000 questionable voter registrations in Kansas City and another 5,000 in St. Louis, ACORN’s involvement should be no surprise.

    Many civic groups oppose the ID plan.

    It is our civic duty to support increased participation in the electoral process. But we also need to protect the integrity of the ballot. ACORN’s well-documented track record should raise the question: Is ACORN disenfranchising the process itself?

    The article doesn’t really help us answer that question, so the article serves it’s readers poorly. It’s just innuendo. The writer is lazy and should find a new career.

    Terrence Scanlon is president of the Capital Research Center, a nonprofit think tank in Washington, D.C.

  • Les Slater

    “I have never seen any value in work”

    Work is where all value comes from.

  • bliffle

    Cannon,

    in re #132:

    It would be nice if you read the material and provided some context for the citations.

    As it is, I concluded that there was no news there.

    Nothing indicates that ACORN, the organization, is nefarious. They’ve had some lazy crooked temp workers. So what’s new about that?

    ACORN coopeated with authorities. They even kept good records for double-checking fraudsters.

  • Clavos

    Work is where all value comes from.

    That, of course, depends on your definition of value.

    Let me rephrase:

    I get no value (other than money) from working.

    So, if the workers paradise will have unlimited, unrestricted unemployment compensation (as you suggested above), for me, I’m on board.

  • troll

    We should demand that these criminals be moved out of the way and that the treasury directly finances short term needs for the operation of necessary production.

    Les – can you translate your ‘demand’ into action – ?

    are you calling for marches and such protests – ?

    further – if the criminals get out of the way then who will be left at the treasury – ?

  • Clavos

    further – if the criminals get out of the way then who will be left at the treasury – ?

    BINGO!

    Of course, the workers will put in their own set of criminals, so we shan’t want for criminals for long.

  • troll

    not to worry Clavos – if you have been so debilitated by the capitalist ideology that you can find no motive to work then others will carry your sorry ass

  • Clavos

    Well, I’m glad to hear that, troll. It’s the first good thing I’ve heard about having workers in control.

    I have virtually no work ethic (in the classic American sense, as in finding virtue in work) whatever.

    I do plenty of work, often for no compensation at all, but since I quit the corporate world, it’s always on my own terms; I get no enjoyment whatever out of working FOR any entity – be it a capitalist corporation, a committee of workers, or the state.

  • Les Slater

    troll,

    “are you calling for marches and such protests – ?”

    Yes, but there are already many such marches and protests. There needs to be brought political clarity to these. This is where persuasive propaganda and agitation comes in.

    “further – if the criminals get out of the way then who will be left at the treasury – ?”

    I was actually referring to the banksters getting out of the way. A parallel banking system, nationalized, to have access to the treasury for the purpose of funding necessary production. Some of the personnel, and all of the records, from the previous banks would be necessary to facilitate such activity.

    Les

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    “When, in the course of Human Events…”

  • http://www.idiotwars.com Dave Nalle

    ACORN coopeated with authorities. They even kept good records for double-checking fraudsters.

    Bliffle, rather than Nevada, it appears that the state to watch regarding ACORN right now is once again Ohio. Things seem to be developing pretty fast there with a court hearing in which ACORN basically admitted that they’re aware of the fraud and don’t believe there’s anything they can or will do about it.

    ACORN has a great situation for plausible deniability, because their system of getting these registrations encourages fraud by paying the workers virtually nothing and then demanding that they meet quota schedules for registrations, which could and does relate in a lot of fraud. They don’t need to have a fraud policy if they hire the right (wrong) people and provide an incentive to cheat at the lowest level of the organization.

    Their objective is more clever than just getting fraudulent registrations. They want to create a situation where registrars become incapable of effectively verifying the legitimacy of votes. The ultimate fraud is not the bogus registrations, but the corruption of the system so that ultimately anyone who walks into a polling place can vote whether they are registered or not.

    Dave

  • http://marksaleski.com Mark Saleski

    To: Interested Parties
    From: Bertha Lewis and Steve Kest
    Date: October 9, 2008
    Re: The Truth About ACORN’s Voter Registration Drive

    Election Day is less than a month away, and our efforts to make sure that low-income and minority voters have a voice and vote on November 4th are in full swing. Unfortunately, just as we’ve seen in previous election cycles, the more success we have in empowering these voters, the more attacks we have to fend off from partisan forces making unfounded accusations to disparage our work and help maintain the status quo of an unbalanced electorate. We want to take this opportunity to separate the facts of our successes from the falsehoods of our attackers.

    On Monday, October 6, as voter registration deadlines passed in most states, ACORN completed the largest, most successful nonpartisan voter registration drive in history. In partnership with the nonpartisan organization Project Vote, we helped register over 1.3 million low-income, minority, and young voters in a total of 21 states. Highlights of this success include:

    We collected over 151,000 registrations in Florida, 153,000 in Pennsylvania, 215,000 in Michigan, and nearly 250,000 in Ohio.

    An estimated 60-70 percent of our applicants are people of color.

    At least HALF of all are registrations are from young people between 18-29.

    We are proud of this unprecedented success, and grateful to everyone who supported us in this massive effort, from our funders and partners to the literally thousands of hardworking individuals across the country who dedicated themselves to the cause and conducted the difficult work of registering 1.3 million Americans, one voter at a time.

    And this work is far from over: now begins our effort mobilize these new voters around local and national issues, getting them to the polls and helping to channel their commitment and conviction into an ongoing movement for change in our communities.

    As The Nation pointed out recently, ACORN’s success in registering millions of low-income and minority voters has made it “something of a right-wing bogeyman.” Though ACORN believes that the right to vote is not, and should never be, a partisan issue, attacks from groups threatened by our historic success continue to come, motivated by partisan politics and often perpetuated by the media without full investigation of the facts. As a result, there have been a few recent stories about investigations of former ACORN workers for turning in incomplete, erroneous, or fraudulent voter registration applications. Predictably, partisan forces have tried to use these isolated incidents to incite fear of the “bogeyman” of “widespread voter fraud.” But we want to take this opportunity to set the record straight and tell you a few facts to show how these incidents really exemplify everything that ACORN is doing right:

    Fact: ACORN has implemented the most sophisticated quality-control system in the voter engagement field, but in almost every state we are required to turn in ALL completed applications, even the ones we know to be problematic.

    Fact: ACORN flags incomplete, problem, or suspicious cards when we turn them in, but these warnings are often ignored by election officials. Often these same officials then come back weeks or months later and accuse us of deliberately turning in phony cards.

    Fact: Our canvassers are paid by the hour, not by the card, so there is NO incentive for them to falsify cards. ACORN has a zero-tolerance policy for deliberately falsifying registrations, and in the relatively rare cases where our internal quality controls have identified this happening we have fired the workers involved and turned them in to election officials and law-enforcement.

    Fact: No charges have ever been brought against ACORN itself. Convictions against individual former ACORN workers have been accomplished with our full cooperation, using the evidence obtained through our quality control and verification processes.

    Fact: Voter fraud by individuals is extremely rare, and incredibly difficult. There has never been a single proven case of anyone, anywhere, casting an illegal vote as a result of a phony voter registration. Even if someone wanted to influence the election this way, it would not work.

    Fact: Most election officials have recognized ACORN’s good work and praised our quality control systems. Even in the cities where election officials have complained about ACORN, the applications in question represent less than 1% of the thousands and thousands of registrations ACORN has collected.

    Fact: Our accusers not only fail to provide any evidence, they fail to suggest a motive: there is virtually no chance anyone would be able to vote fraudulently, so there is no reason to deliberately submit phony registrations. ACORN is committed to ensuring that the greatest possible numbers of people are registered and allowed to vote, so there is also NO incentive to “disrupt the system” with phony cards.

    Fact: Similar accusations were made, and attacks launched, against ACORN and other voter registration organizations in 2004 and 2006. These attacks were not only groundless, they have since been exposed as part of the U.S. Attorneygate scandal and revealed to be part of a systematic partisan agenda of voter suppression.

    These are the facts, and the truth is that a relatively small group of political operatives are trying to orchestrate hysteria about “voter fraud” and manufacture public outrage that they can use to further suppress the votes of millions of low-income and minority Americans.

    These tactics are nothing new, and history has shown that they will come to nothing. We’ll continue to weather the storm, as we’ve done for years, and we’ll continue to share the truth about our work and express pride about our accomplishments.
    Most importantly, we want to assure you that this good work continues, unabated and undeterred. ACORN will not be intimidated, we will not be provoked, and in this important moment in history we will not allow anyone to distract us from these vital efforts to empower our constituencies and our communities to speak for themselves. If the partisan political machines are afraid of low-income and minority voters, they’re going to have to do a lot better than coming after ACORN.

    After all, there are now at least 1.3 million more of them, and they will not be silenced. They’re taking an interest, and taking a stand, and they’ll be taking their concerns to the voting booth in November.

    And ACORN will be here, to make sure that the voices of these Americans are heard, on Election Day and for every day to come.

  • Cindy D

    Do they call it anything when the GOP tries to prevent legitimate voters from voting?

    I didn’t notice that being called fraud anywhere.

  • Jordan Richardson

    No, Cindy, they call that “Standing Up For Freedom.”

  • http://www.idiotwars.com Dave Nalle

    I particularly like the way ACORN basically accuses anyone who questions them of being racist, agist and elitist all at the same time.

    I heard a great ACORN story today. Apparently in California they had a petition drive on to raise the minimum wage. In the process they sued the state to exempt them from paying the existing minimum wage so they could pay their workers for piece work based on the number of petition signatures they got. So they didn’t want to pay their workers a living wage while those workers were gathering signatures to raise the state minimum wage.

    They define new heights in hypocrisy.

    Dave

  • Jordan Richardson

    Hmm, you heard a “great” ACORN story today and you’re at a conference with Americans For Prosperity.

    Dave, does it ever occur to you to contact ACORN directly? Perhaps there’s a representative in your area that you could interview, either on your call-in program or on your blog, and provide us some insight instead of speculation and secondhand stories from the prosperous.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    “There has never been a single proven case of anyone, anywhere, casting an illegal vote as a result of a phony voter registration.”

    I find this claim quite hard to believe, but I am interested to find out if anyone knows of an instance in which an investigative reporter (or even a blogger) has actually set out to attempt to vote fraudulently. If so, what was the outcome?

  • Clavos

    If you’re willing to do a little traveling, it’s ridiculously easy to register to vote in more than one state at the same time.

    Some states (from personal experience Georgia, Florida, Texas) don’t even ask for proof of citizenship, just proof of residency.

    I never actually bothered to take advantage of it, but I was registered in all three of those states simultaneously for several years. As an airline executive with free travel privileges, I could easily have started early in the east coast states, and wound up in TX before the polls closed.

  • http://www.idiotwars.com Dave Nalle

    Dr. D. I’d be inherently distrustful of a generalization that huge. Seems pretty self-serving and fundamentally unsupportable.

    Dave

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Spreading the love, eh, Clav?

    Seriously, though, I’d be interested to read an investigative article like that. It troubles me that voter fraud may be as ridiculously easy as some of you seem to think it is.

    My suggestion? If it can’t be fixed, then at least encourage equal opportunity frauding. If there’s suspicion of widespread shenanigans by Republicans in Backhander County, Ohio, for example, then the electoral commissioner there should discreetly let the local Democratic Party know that (s)he won’t be looking too hard if they should decide to redress the balance, so to speak; or vice versa. That way there ends up being enough cheating on both sides that it all evens out in the end…

    I do remember looking on from abroad with a mixture of amusement and horror at the farcical aftermath of the 2000 race. Supposedly the world’s greatest democracy, and you can’t even organise an election properly!

    The Y2K doomsayers were correct, but they were looking in entirely the wrong direction…

  • bliffle

    Dave sez:

    “I heard a great ACORN story today. Apparently in California they had a petition drive on to raise the minimum wage. In the process they sued the state to exempt them from paying the existing minimum wage so they could pay their workers for piece work…”

    ‘Apparently”, Dave? Is that your escape clause when someone less lazy researches the story and finds the truth?

    That’s cowardly.

    Do your own research, Dave. Find out for yourself. As it is you’ve made your statements and opinions largely irrelevant here on BC.

  • bliffle

    DD sez:

    “My suggestion? If it can’t be fixed, then at least encourage equal opportunity frauding.”

    IMO that is a failed strategy. Dueling evils doesn’t work: it just makes the triumphant evil more powerful.

    I criticized Clavos for just reading left and right periodicals. I don’t think you find the truth by listening to Dueling Liars.

    Besides, the truth, the best course, may be a third (or fourth or fifth…) way.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    I’m in a cynical mood today, Bliff. Comes of reading too much of what Dave has to say!

    On which note, it has been amusing these last few days to watch the now-total disarray of the McCainites. They’ve been so busy digging up dirt on ACORN that they’re forgetting to try and make any of it stick to Obama.

    Just when one thought American ‘politics’ couldn’t get any sillier…

  • Cindy D

    Meet Sarah Palin’s radical right-wing pals

    Editor’s note: Research support provided by the Nation Institute Investigative Fund.

    Extremists Mark Chryson and Steve Stoll helped launch Palin’s political career in Alaska, and in return had influence over policy. “Her door was open,” says Chryson — and still is.

    (snip)

    Now, Palin is a household name and her every move is scrutinized by the Washington press corps. She can no longer afford to kibitz with secessionists, however instrumental they may have been to her meteoric ascendancy. This does not trouble her old AIP allies. Indeed, Chryson is hopeful that Palin’s inauguration will also represent the start of a new infiltration.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “It troubles me that voter fraud may be as ridiculously easy as some of you seem to think it is.”

    I worked in a polling place in CA, and we were told we couldn’t ask for ID. Some people volunteered, but people gave us a name and we checked them off the records. Now, no one came up and gave a name that someone had already given, but I don’t know that everyone was who they said they were and the person in charge likely wouldn’t have known what to do.

  • bliffle

    Dr. D. Despairs:

    “I’m in a cynical mood today, Bliff. Comes of reading too much of what Dave has to say!”

    It needn’t be that way! Just remember that Dave is predictably wrong (which he mistakes for a glorious contrariness) and that he gets second hand opinions from NRO and the like.

    Most of the time you can just chuckle at him, and then about once a year track down one of his weird ideas and refute them and it will restore your good mood. Then you can go back to chuckling at his thickheadedness for another year.

    As Pogo said: don’t take the World Serious.

  • Cindy D

    Troopergate Report: Palin Abused Power

    Palin violated the state Ethics Act, Branchflower found.

    They voted to make the report public.

    It’s not looking good for McCain/Palin. It seems polls have Obama up 8% in the battleground states now.

  • Franco

    #734 — bliffle

    Looks to me like you are really off base. ACORN promoted renovation of defunct housing neighborhoods and also established home-building efforts like those of Habitat For Humanity. They were saving neighborhoods, which is beneficial for suppliers such as you are. You should welcome them.

    Biffle, you are way too naïve. Follow the Money.

    Community Reinvestment Act (CRA)

    The Act, which Jimmy Carter signed in 1977, grew out of the complaint that urban banks were “redlining” inner-city neighborhoods, refusing to lend to their residents while using their deposits to finance suburban expansion. Implicit in the bill’s rationale was a belief that CRA was needed to counter racial discrimination in lending.

    The Clinton administration turned the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) into one of the most powerful mandates shaping American cities—and, as Senate Banking Committee chairman Phil Gramm memorably put it, a vast extortion scheme against the nation’s banks. Under its provisions, U.S. banks have committed nearly $1 trillion for inner-city and low-income mortgages and real estate development projects, most of it funneled through a nationwide network of left-wing community groups, intent, in some cases, on teaching their low-income clients that the financial system is their enemy and, implicitly, that government, rather than their own striving, is the key to their well-being.

    CRA funnels billions of investment dollars through groups that understand protest and political advocacy but not marketing or finance. This amateur delivery system for investment capital has been going about its business highly unwisely.

    ACORN is a group of very radical community organizers. What ACORN does is they try to intimidate banks into giving these high-risk loans to low-credit customers. This is what they did for years, especially in the late ’80s and early ’90s.

    What kind of stuff did these ACORN activists do to try to get banks to lend money to people who are in the subprime markets?

    They would flood protestors into the lobbies of banks, scare away customers, they would send protestors to the homes of bankers, they would break into private offices of bankers to scare them, and they would file complaints under something called the Community Reinvestment Act, which is a law that ACORN used to try to force these banks to make these high-risk loans.

    Now, on the other hand, though, some of these banks did want to get into the subprime market, because they could make higher margins that way. What about that?

    In the early ’90s, that wasn’t happening. The banks were resisting ACORN at that early point. And what happened at that point was that ACORN realized that they would never bring the banks around to these high-risk loans unless it got Fannie and Freddie in on the game, because the banks would say — hey, we can only make so many of these risky loans to you because Fannie and Freddie won’t buy them. They have very high credit standards.

    So, ACORN went to its Washington lobbyists, who put pressure on its Democratic allies in Congress, and that’s how Fannie and Freddie got their credit standards changed and really watered down so tremendously. Then everyone said, oh, we can make a lot of money at this, but what really started the highly unwise practice of these bad loans was the pressure from ACORN and Democrats on Fannie and Freddie.

    Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac have helped create huge pools of credit by purchasing mortgage loans and packaging large numbers of them together into securities for sale to bond buyers all over the world. Talk about US foreign relations going to shit.

    Fannie Mae is not just any corporation. It is a quasi-governmental financial behemoth that sits at the crossroads of national politics and high finance. And it is playing for enormously high financial stakes, even as its business is little understood by the public.

    Founded by government charter in 1938 under the administration of President Franklin Roosevelt, Fannie Mae’s mission is to increase home ownership. It does so by purchasing mortgages from private lenders, creating what is known as a secondary market for loans. This arrangement encourages banks to make more loans by reducing their financial risk while lowering the cost of borrowing for consumers.

    Fannie Mae was privatized in 1968. Backed by a $2.25-billion line of credit from the U.S. Treasury, it posted $37-billion in revenue last year and ranked 26th on the Forbes 500 list. In terms of assets, it is the nation’s third-largest corporation.

    We all know it went belly up and we all get to pay for it. Thanks ACORN for getting Fannie Mae to lover is credit standaards.

    Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass. As chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, Frank is in the vanguard of the government’s response to the crisis.

    Money Magazine senior writer Janice Revell recently caught up with Frank in Washington a few days before President Bush signed the bill into law in late July.

    Q. Is the current mess a result of naive consumers being duped into horrible mortgages or is it a case of greedy consumers chasing cheap loans?

    A. Some were misled, others took part in the deception. There were people, for instance, who lied about their incomes. But we have made a mistake in this society. The assumption that everybody can be a homeowner is wrong. We pushed and encouraged people into home ownership – people who, in some cases, weren’t ready for it. You can’t act on wishes that are unrealistic without having negative consequences.

    Q. What has to happen to make you confident we’re not going to relive this mess all over again someday?

    A. We basically have to tell people who want to make mortgage loans something terribly radical. Do not lend money to people who can’t pay it back.

    Did your catch that thinking there is Frank’s statement. Telling people something terribly radical by have to tell them not to lend money to people who can’t pay it back.

    What is radical it that he even thought in the first place that lending money to people who couldn’t pay it back was a good thing. Were do this people come from.

    Who do you think is going to pay for these defaulting sub-primers who should have never been given a loan in the fist place and I don’t care what fucking color they are, because simple put, you can’t get blood from a turnip. It is going to come from the backs of those who work hard meeting their responsibilities and they are the ones putting money into the public treasury through taxes instead of taking it out.

    Redistribution of wealth is even wrong being employed against the wealthy, but it is the sin of sins to employ it against the hard working men and women of this county for a minority that can not get their shit together or don’t give a shit in the first place.

  • Franco

    #155 — Mark Saleski

    Your ACORN accreditation is totally false and misleading!

    #163 –Dr Dreadful]

    Seriously, though, I’d be interested to read an investigative article like that. It troubles me that voter fraud may be as ridiculously easy as some of you seem to think it is.

    James Terry, Chief Public Advocate for the Consumers Rights League, testified Wednesday, September 24, 2008 at a joint House Administration and House Judiciary Committee oversight hearing on “Federal, State and Local Efforts to Prepare for the General 2008 Election,” where he highlighted “corruption at every level of ACORN including embezzlement, cover-ups, misuse of taxpayer funds and voter fraud.

    Judiciary Subcommittee on the Constitution, Civil Rights and Civil Liberties

    Testimony on A.C.O.R.N.’s Voter Fraud

  • Cindy D

    For the edification of those interested:

    Senate Hearings–In-Person Voter Fraud: Myth and Trigger for Disenfranchisement?

    I just read through some of the testimony–informative.

  • bliffle

    Franco:

    I don’t believe these are your words, but those of somebody else.

    Where did you get the original comment in:

    #171 — October 10, 2008 @ 22:20PM — Franco

    I’d like to read the original opinion (for opinion it is) and try to ferret out any available citations and/or respond on the true authors blog.

    Please give a citation.

  • bliffle

    Franco:

    The testimony that James Terry gave as a rep of Consumers Rights League looks like an amicus brief, i.e., unsolicited “friend of the court” testimony.

    It appears that the “Consumers Rights League” is an advocacy organization for credit card companies:


    Examiner article


    WASHINGTON, Feb. 22 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ — A predatory lending industry front group, the “Consumers Rights” League, emerged today to derail reform of reckless practices that have ensnared Americans in harmful payday loans, fostered hundreds of thousands of family foreclosures, roiled international markets, and put our country on the brink of recession.

    The primary targets of this fake grassroots effort are the Center for Responsible Lending and its affiliate, Self-Help Credit Union. For the past 25 years, Self-Help has provided over $5 billion of financing to 55,000 low-wealth families, small businesses and nonprofit organizations in North Carolina and across the country, with an annual loan loss rate of less than one percent.

    These attacks are nothing new. The “Consumers Rights” League joins the ranks of the Ku Klux Klan and drug dealers who opposed Self-Help’s community development lending in poor and minority neighborhoods.

    We want to set the record straight about the misinformation and distortions these predatory companies and their public relations attack firms are spreading. Please visit http://www.responsiblelending.org and see “Debunking Industry Propaganda” for the truth.

    About the Center for Responsible Lending

    The Center for Responsible Lending … is a nonprofit, nonpartisan research and policy organization dedicated to protecting homeownership and family wealth by working to eliminate abusive financial practices. CRL is affiliated with Self-Help (http://www.self-help.org/), one of the nation’s largest community development financial institutions.

  • Cindy D

    No problems in Colorado with ACORN
    Rocky Mountain News
    Published October 10, 2008 at 12:05 a.m.

    Interesting ACORN article follows:

    GOP in push to erase voters; purges ACORN over drive to register low income

    “Ohio Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner, a Democrat, has been locked in several court battles with that state’s Republican Party.” She praised ACORN’s work in OH and said Republican claims of significant voter fraud were unfounded.

    There are also implications that the FBI raid in Nevada may have been contrived. Clark County Board of Elections was informed in July by senior counsel for Project Vote about irregularities in a percentage of the registrations they would be bringing in. They told him they “weren’t interested.” Now, a month before the election they get raided by the FBI.

  • Franco

    #175 — bliffle

    Franco:

    I don’t believe these are your words, but those of somebody else.

    Where did you get the original comment in:

    #171 — October 10, 2008 @ 22:20PM — Franco

    I’d like to read the original opinion (for opinion it is) and try to ferret out any available citations and/or respond on the true authors blog.

    Please give a citation.

    Biffle, the information I proved in post #171 comes from multiple of souces sights. As it covers several issues.

    1. Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) from Carter to Clinton and gives it history and the radical changes Clinton enacted on it. These are facts. You can Google “Carter+CRA” and “Clinton+CRA” and take your pick.

    2 ACORN’s Washington lobbying to ease Fannie Mae credits standards. These are facts. You can Google “ACONR+Washington lobbyists” and take your pick.

    3. It covers Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and gives its history. These are facts. You can Google that as well and take your pick.

    4. Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass statements. These are facts. You can google “Money Magazine+Barney Frank” and take your pick.

    My words are in and about making comments on this information. And I also write the last 4 paragraphs.

    If you have trouble-using Google let me know.

  • Cindy D

    Franco those are not facts. They seem to be repostings of blogger opinions.

    Citations don’t involve “google this and that.”

    Provide references or discredit yourself. Take your pick.

  • Franco

    #176 — bliffle

    The testimony that James Terry gave as a rep of Consumers Rights League looks like an amicus brief, i.e., unsolicited “friend of the court” testimony.

    It appears that the “Consumers Rights League” is an advocacy organization for credit card companies:

    Consumers Rights League

    Subcommittee on Elections Joint Hearing with House Judiciary’s Subcommittee on Constitution, Civil Rights, and Civil Liberties

    Federal, State and Local Efforts to Prepare for the 2008 General Election

  • Franco

    #180 — Cindy D

    Franco those are not facts. They seem to be repostings of blogger opinions.

    Citations don’t involve “google this and that.”

    Provide references or discredit yourself. Take your pick.

    Cindy, you want to argue the fact that Carter signed the CRA act in 1977 for the reasons I stated.

    Or the fact that Clinton modified the CRA Act by pushing lenders to take on more higher risk loans.

    Or the fact that ACORN lobbied in Washington to get Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to lower credit standards for banks would issue more credit risky loans.

    Or the fact that ACORN would flood protestors into the lobbies of banks, scare away customers, or that they would send protestors to the homes of bankers.

    Or that the history I sighted on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac starting in 1938 to 1968 are not facts.

    Or that what Barny Frank said to Money Magaziine are not facts.

    Which facts would you like to contest. Be specific or discredit yourself. Take your pick.

    And let me add this. By my sugjecting that they all can be Googled means anyone can check them out and that not only supports them, but it also allows those who disagree with this facts to counter mine. It called research and I stand on it.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    What I was looking for, Franco, was an attempt (in the spirit of journalistic inquiry) by an investigative reporter or some similarly enterprising soul to actually register fraudulently and then succeed in voting.

    Not an extended whinge by the head of a special interest group whose corporate nose ACORN had put out of joint.

  • Cindy D

    Here Franco,

    As to your first “facts”:

    Media conservatives baselessly blame Community Reinvestment Act for foreclosure spike

    Summary: Several conservatives in the media have recently blamed the Community Reinvestment Act for the current financial crisis — when, in fact, the CRA does not apply to institutions making the vast majority of troubled loans underlying the crisis. It applies only to depository institutions, such as banks and savings and loan associations. Experts have estimated that 80 percent of high-priced subprime loans were offered by financial institutions that are not subject to the CRA.

    I’ll throw this in because I find it interesting and it probably contradicts things you’ve said or are likely to say in the future:

    Fox News’ Baier advanced conservative attacks on CRA, repeated falsehood about Rep. Frank

    Summary: On the Fox News special Saving Our Economy, Bret Baier repeated or failed to challenge numerous false assertions about the role of affordable housing initiatives in the financial crisis and Democratic responses to the crisis.

    As far as your laundry list of items. I have no idea. Why don’t you try providing references. I don’t do other people’s laundry.

  • Cindy D

    Dr.D,

    Here is the summation of the findings of that Senate hearing on in-person voter fraud:

    Given the amount of speculation and misinformation in the public sphere concerning in-person impersonation fraud, and restrictions ostensibly intended to address such fraud, we thank the Committee for sponsoring this hearing. This represents a welcome effort to ensure that the serious policy debate around election reform remains grounded in the facts.

    The available empirical research shows that although in-person impersonation fraud is an occurrence of extraordinary rarity, it has been used to justify policies that appear to offer little benefit and impose substantial cost. The existing safeguards and deterrents have been successful in preventing in-person impersonation fraud to any significant degree; further measures are not only unnecessary, but risk compromising the integrity of our elections to the extent that they shut out eligible citizens.

    In contrast, there remain serious concerns about aspects of our election process where existing safeguards are not sufficient, and where remedies would not risk harm to eligible voters – including, for example, threats to the security of our voting systems, and concerns with the transparency of purges of the voter rolls. In this election season, we still face substantial challenges in ensuring that all eligible citizens are able to exercise the franchise effectively, and we look forward to assisting in the effort to achieve this common goal.

  • Cindy D

    Thanks Dave, now it makes even more sense that the FBI raid appeared to be contrived

    That gives McCain a reason to mention them and to go into some detail on Obama’s history as a paid activist working for ACORN front group Project Vote…

  • Franco

    #181 — Dr Dreadful

    What I was looking for, Franco, was an attempt (in the spirit of journalistic inquiry) by an investigative reporter or some similarly enterprising soul to actually register fraudulently and then succeed in voting.

    You’re welcome.

    Not an extended whinge by the head of a special interest group whose corporate nose ACORN had put out of joint.

    That is an argument against the man, argument against the person, ii is not an argument against his claims. That makes it an ad hominem argument.

    Doc, I know you find it hard to understand how voter fraud can take place, as I read many of your posts. We even talked about this some time ago with illegal aliens voting and you just could not come to see how it is possible. Well they do, they effect ellections and there are cases on the books. If that is as strange to you as America’s passion for collage sports, I don’t now how to help you see it. But I would sugjest your not looking hard enoght or don’t really care.

    Gathering evidence for prosecution (voter fraud is a felony) is not easy to do. So when we do have evidence we need to have people do research and gather facts and purse legal channels of authority. A journalistic inquiry by an investigative reporter would be fine, but even that would not establish the depth of it.

    Now when someone like James Terry gathers enough research and information on evidence and a establishes a patter of abuse and is allowed to speak before the House Judiciary’s Subcommittee it’s no small matter. Voter fraud is the ultimate jelony against democracy. Every illegaly vote casts cancels out a legal vote.

    Anyone can do there own research concerning James Terry’s claims to see if they have merit and if true or false. I have done that and they are all true.

    I’ll just sight one of his collated pieces of evidence that he gave in his testimony before the House Judiciary’s Subcommittee which proves what his claim was true. As for the rest of his claims, you’re a big boy, if you really cared you could look and verify all his other claims.

    The question is, to you really give a fuck, or would you rather let it slide because the illegal votes would go to your favorite candidate and just throw ad hominem attack at those trying to defend true democracy? If you condoe one fellony, you condon them all. You can’t choose which ones.

    The Seattle Times July 26, 2007

    ACORN agreed to pay King County $25,000 for its investigative costs and acknowledged that the national organization could be subject to criminal prosecution if fraud occurs again.

    “Ladies and gentlemen, this is the worst case of voter-registration fraud in the history of the state of Washington. There has been nothing comparable to this,” state Secretary of State Sam Reed said at a news conference with Satterberg, King County Executive Ron Sims and Acting U.S. Attorney Jeff Sullivan.

    The Seattle Times July 26, 2007

  • Franco

    #182 — October 11, 2008 @ 01:55AM — Cindy D

    Summary: Several conservatives in the media have recently blamed the Community Reinvestment Act for the current financial crisis — when, in fact, the CRA does not apply to institutions making the vast majority of troubled loans underlying the crisis. It applies only to depository institutions, such as banks and savings and loan associations. Experts have estimated that 80 percent of high-priced subprime loans were offered by financial institutions that are not subject to the CRA.

    Cindy, that statement above only confirms what I already stated. Now pay attention.

    Banks were not making this high risk loans before Fannie and Freddie lowered their credit standards. When the banks were being presued to do so by ACORN the banks said no, because Fannie and Freddie credit standards were two high and would not buy them from the bank, so the banks would not do any more then the small percest the CRA requied them to do.

    ACORN realized that they would never bring the banks around to these high-risk loans in more volume unless it got Fannie and Freddie in on the game, because the banks would say — hey, we can only make so many of these risky loans to you because Fannie and Freddie won’t buy them. They have very high credit standards.

    So before this happened, banks where not in the sub-prime business yet. That’s what is conveniently left out of your statement above and thus fails to point out.

    Now it is true that once Fannie and Freddie lowered their credit standard through Washington lobbyists working via ACORN, the banks too went deep into high-risk loan business (which your statement claims in 80%) because of the extra profit in those loans and they were given the dream come true of Fannie and Freddie buying them off the banks hands.

    So both ACORN and the Banks were in the game, but it was ACORN who lobbied Washington to put the pressure on Fannie and Freddie, and it worked!

    Now you can say that the banks took advantage and I will agree. Bankers are the money mizers, that what they do. But when Washington allowed Fannie and Freddie to lower their credit standards they nver put limits on ACORN or the Banks.

    It should never have happed in the first place, and Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass. as chairman of the House Financial Services Committee said that very thing in his own word in his interview with Money Magazine.

    All of this is sighted in my post.

    Now what other issues do you have with my post #171?

  • bliffle

    In view of the Senate hearing conclusions quoted in #183 my conclusion is that this whole ACORN fuss is a cynical attempt by the right wing to intimidate potential voters into not voting. lower turnouts generally favor rightists.

    The whole howling mob of Dave Nalle, Clavos, Archie, and now Franco seem to be just echoing a disinformation campaign, probably rooted in National Review Online. How low that once useful periodical has fallen.

  • Cannonshop

    Let’s see, now, Bliffle…

    Oh, yeah, that’s right-it’s not Fraud if it isn’t Republicans doing it. It’s also not Fraud if the Senators conducting the hearing could have their re-election endangered by a finding of fraud.

    isn’t that about the measure of it, Bliffle? YOU only see corruption when it is not to your Benefit.

  • Cindy D

    Cannon,

    That logic is amazing! Where did you learn to think like that?

    Republicans are on an all out mission to claim all over the press that there’s all this voter fraud, and then at a hearing (in March) they’re giving false testimony because actually finding evidence of the fraud will endanger their re-election?

  • http://www.idiotwars.com Dave Nalle

    It appears that the “Consumers Rights League” is an advocacy organization for credit card companies:

    Of course, they might be concerned about ACORN because of ACORN employees taking voter registration information and using it for identity theft. But that’s what happens when you mainly employ drug addicts and ex-cons.

    As for the growth in ACORN fraud allegations, it’s just a matter of time and snowballing evidence. I’ve been writing about ACORN fraud for 4 years. It just took a while for everyone else to catch up. It might be related to the time it takes for investigations and court cases to be processed and reach a result.

    Dave

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    The link cited in Comment #183 is to the March 12, 2008 testimony of Justin Levitt, Esq., counsel for the Brennan Center for Justice at NYU School of Law. It is not, as claimed, the summation of the hearings of the Senate committee. See also the reference in Comment # 187 to the Senate hearing conclusions quoted in #183. Even without going to the link, this might have been obvious: it would be quite unusual for a summary, report or conclusions of a Senate committee to thank the Committee for sponsoring this hearing, as the partial text of Mr. Levitt’s testimony quoted in Comment # 183 does. If a report, conclusions or summary of the hearings has been published, I have not been able to find it. If a link could be provided, I would appreciate it.

    A couple of points:

    1. A lot has come to light since Mr. Levitt’s March 12th testimony, now one day short of seven months ago, and indeed since Senator Obama’s subsequent nomination. Numerous accounts of “erroneous” attempts at multiple registration of voters have surfaced. Many of them have involved ACORN. Although I only skimmed Mr. Levitt’s linked testimony, and the copious footnotes, I found no specific reference to ACORN activities.

    2. The Brennan Center is an activist organization with an allegedly “progressive” agenda. Its heaviest financial contributor is George Soros’ Open Society Institute which, between 1999 and 2004, contributed $3,291,218.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://www.idiotwars.com Dave Nalle

    Check out this affidavit from the ACORN investigation in Nevada detailing the hiring of convicted identity fraud felons as cancassers.

    Dave

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Franco, I don’t wish to dismiss anything out of hand. I would, however, observe two things:

    1. Without exception, your many citations involve cases of fraudulent voter registration, not attempts to actually vote. I was, as I said, skeptical of the ACORN representatives’ claim that no case of fraudulent voting had ever been successfully detected or prosecuted in the US, so I wanted to find out if anyone had actually tried to see if it was possible.

    2. Voter fraud on a scale significant enough to influence the outcome of an election is a thing of the past in most every Western democracy – except, you would have us believe, the United States. I just don’t think it’s a significant problem. The picture that emerges from your citations is that the detection system seems to be fairly effective: not one of these cases involves a stage of the process any later than initial voter registration – long before the perpetrators could do any real damage.

    For the record, I don’t believe deliberate fraud had much influence on the result in Florida in 2000 or Ohio in 2004. In Florida, incompetence, poor organization and lack of consistency were the major factors.

    The much-loved British phrase “couldn’t organize a piss-up in a brewery” comes to mind.

    Also for the record, I’m not American, am not entitled to vote and don’t have a particular horse in this race. I’d prefer it if Obama won, that’s true, but I’ve said before that I’d be quite happy with a McCain presidency – as long as he follows through on his promise to appoint a bipartisan cabinet/administration.

    The right’s apoplexy regarding ACORN – and the feeble attempts to connect the organization to Obama in any meaningful way – is the last hurrah of a desperate campaign. The alarm on my bullshit detector is deafening. Fortunately, in a bit over three weeks it should stop!

  • http://www.idiotwars.com Dave Nalle

    and the feeble attempts to connect the organization to Obama in any meaningful way

    Good grief, Dr. D. He was a paid employee of ACORN for two years, then he was a lawyer for them on retainer and he sent them $800K last year. These are all matters of record. Some of them are in his resume and on his website. Those are hardly ‘feeble’ connections.

    Dave

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Bullshit, Dave. He was never an employee of ACORN, the lawsuit in which he represented them was in conjunction with the Justice Department, his website says nothing close to what you claim it does, and quite where you saw his resumé I have no idea.

    FWIW (not much, I’m guessing, in your book), the New York Times did do a fact check on the claims.

  • Cindy D

    Dan,

    Thank you for correcting my error. Citing a summary of the testimony given by a panel member hardly qualifies as a summary of the Senate findings.

    I would like to say that it was unintentional. Google string: summary senate findings In-Person Voter Fraud Myth

    1st article is what I thought was the summary. There are better times for research than 2:00 a.m.

    I’m not fining any Senate findings though either. I would settle for a summary of the hearing testimony.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Back to the original subject of this article, it appears that neither candidate’s supporters are too happy about their refusal to ‘take the gloves off’. Following the less-than-warm reception from McCain’s audience yesterday to his insistence that his opponent is ‘a decent man’ who is not (gasp!) an Arab, Obama was in turn booed today for saying that McCain deserved thanks for serving his country.

    Aren’t American voters just lovely?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Cindy,

    I had no doubt that it was unintentional. I have occasionally made the same sort of mistake.

    Here is a suggestion: In the BC preview page, right click on the link and ask that it be opened in a different window. That way, you don’t lose your comment and can verify the link. It works on Firefox, which I have been using for a long time. Whether it works on Microsoft’s Internet Explorer, I don’t know.

    Cheers,

    Dan(Miller)

  • bliffle

    Dave (#190) speculates:

    … ACORN employees taking voter registration information and using it for identity theft.

    Do you have evidence of this?

    But that’s what happens when you mainly employ drug addicts and ex-cons.

    Evidence? Besides, what’s wrong with hiring ex-cons?

    As for the growth in ACORN fraud allegations…,

    “allegations”? Do you mean rumors, gossip, and innuendo? Because that is what you have repeated here on BC. Many times. And you have never substantiated any of it.

    …it’s just a matter of time and snowballing evidence. I’ve been writing about ACORN fraud for 4 years.

    You’ve been wasting your time, Dave. Get a new hobby. Try raising Chinchillas.

    It just took a while for everyone else to catch up.

    Well, apparently Clavos, Franco and Archie have caught up. Now isn’t that nice for you! Such distinguished company!

    It might be related to the time it takes for investigations and court cases to be processed and reach a result.

    Yawn. We’re still waiting, Dave. Hope you enjoy it back there at the end of the pack with Archie, etc.

    Keep waiting, Dave. It might take even more time. Maybe you should suspend your other activities, like writing BC articles, so you can concentrate better on mentally moving those court cases ahead.

  • http://www.idiotwars.com Dave Nalle

    Bullshit, Dave. He was never an employee of ACORN, the lawsuit in which he represented them was in conjunction with the Justice Department, his website says nothing close to what you claim it does, and quite where you saw his resumé I have no idea.

    He worked for Project Vote. Project Vote is a wholly owned subsidiary of ACORN. As for the resume, I was using it in a general sense. Certainly there’s not much to it, but I was talking about how he represents his background and experience.

    Dave

  • Cannonshop

    #189
    Cindy, it’s not a stretch, it’s business-as-usual in Washington State, and facilitated NOW by “Vote by mail-fraud”, there’s no requirement for any proof that the person being registered even exists here. Chicago is also infamous for it. The primary reason I vote in statewide races these days, is to force them use those frauds, since they have to pay their people to fill out the ballots.
    ACORN just appears to be taking the Chicago and Seattle Machines nationwide.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Nice try, Dave, but although Project Vote may be affiliated with ACORN today, it was not in 1992.

  • http://www.idiotwars.com Dave Nalle

    Sorry, Dr. D. That claim has been disproven. In fact, some of the sites which offered it like Answers.com have removed it recently.

    In fact, Toni Foulkes who is an ACORN director for Chicago wrote an article specifically confirming that Obama was affiliated with ACORN and Project Vote and that they were associated in 1992. She also discusses Obama’s work directly for ACORN as a trainer during the 90s.

    An article on American Thinker explains it and has a link to the Foulkes article as well.

    Dave

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Well, you have to subscribe to the journal in order to read the Foulkes article, and while I’m sure this would be a stupendously worthwhile investment, I’d rather guard my pennies for the moment.

    What the Thinker article (quoting Kurtz) actually says:

    ‘And while many reports speak of Obama’s post-law school role organizing “Project VOTE” in 1992, Foulkes makes it clear that this project was undertaken in direct partnership with Acorn.’ [my emphasis]

    Not an employee, Dave…

  • Cindy D

    Cannon,

    That does not make sense. If I allege throughout the media, (election cycle after election cycle to the degree that it is my mantra) that there is all this rampant crime, how does it benefit me to cover it up if I have rooted it out?

    If I have rooted it out, it behooves me to bring the criminals to justice, to expose it, to take credit for saving our voting system.

    You have it backwards.

  • bliffle

    Dave says he’s spent 4 years bird-dogging ACORN, and as near as I can see he’s found nothing. I spent 4 days (I don’t think I ever heard of ACORN before 4 days ago) and de-bunked every assertion he made. It was easy.

    Dave, you’re wasting your time.

  • Cannonshop

    #205

    But you won’t, Cindy, if it cuts a Democrat. It’s the one, singular value all Democrats hold- that something is not a crime if their side does it.

    It’s only a crime if the OTHER side does it.

    Democrats do not pursue, prosecute, or run against Democrats, they ONLY go after Republicans, and when a group of Democrat operatives are caught out (as has happened in Nevada, Washington State, and other places), Democrats turn a blind eye or deny there’s a problem-even on issues they themselves have been frantic about pursuing in hopes of nailing a Republican.

    Your side puts Party before EVERYTHING.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Bliffle, did you note that four years ago was the run-up to the 2004 election, during which – due to the closeness of the opinion polls – concerns were raised that we might be in for a repeat of 2000, and that there might be some dastardly goings-on in order to rig the election in Bush’s favor? The name Diebold came up rather a lot, I recall.

    That would be just about the point at which Dave and the rest of the right-wing wolf pack would have set about digging for dirt on the other side.

  • Cindy D

    Cannon,

    Are you not able for some reason to follow the point?

  • Cannonshop

    Interesting that you bring that up, Doc. Nobody at Diebold was brought up on charges, Diebold wasn’t forced to promise to cease-and-desist.

    There HAVE been Charges and convictions with ACORN, and ACORN was given a Cease-and-desist order.

    But…while we’re on the Subject of 2004…

    Google “Washington State Elections” and 2004.

    I live in a state Governed by someone put in office via Vote-Fraud.

  • Franco

    That would be just about the point at which Dave and the rest of the right-wing wolf pack

    LOL

  • Cindy D
  • Cindy D

    This is cool!

    A graduate student designed a scanner that can track who edits wikepedia.

    On November 17th, 2005, an anonymous Wikipedia user deleted 15 paragraphs from an article on e-voting machine-vendor Diebold, excising an entire section critical of the company’s machines. While anonymous, such changes typically leave behind digital fingerprints offering hints about the contributor, such as the location of the computer used to make the edits.

    In this case, the changes came from an IP address reserved for the corporate offices of Diebold itself.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com DaveNalle

    Cindy, that’s an old, old story. Corporate redacting of Wikipedia entries is endemic. It’s why Wikipedia is often not regarded as a comprehensive source for important or controversial issues. You would not believe the crap I’ve had to go through editing Wikipedia entries to try to get even small bits of mildly controversial information included, no matter how well documented. On the Alex Jones entry I and others provided THREE first hand videos of Jones shoving a bystander at a protest and we couldn’t stop a reference to the incident from being removed.

    dave

  • Cindy D

    Dave,

    Did you look at the scanner to see if Alex Jones deleted it?

  • http://www.republicofdave.com DaveNalle

    In most of these cases it’s a lot more complex than just one person deleting it, and probably that applies in the Diebold case too. While Alex Jones or some other individual might have first deleted it and raised the issue that there’s some ground to dispute the information, once that happens people whose self-appointed function is basically to ‘blandify’ Wikipedia move in and take over relentlessly making sure that nothing gets into the entry which might upset or outrage anyone in any way.

    A Diebold appointee could delete the paragraph, but whoever put it in there would bring it back, unless a cabal of these career sanitizers took over to keep it out, which is probably what happened.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com DaveNalle

    Not an employee, Dave…

    You have to be kidding. You quote a sentence from the article and then ignore the sentence immediately after it, which counters your silly claim. You know, the sentence which says:

    “Foulkes then stresses Obama’s yearly service as a key figure in Acorn’s leadership-training seminars.”

    As in teaching in seminars run by ACORN, not a subsidiary or an associated group. Obama, working for ACORN.

    No ambiguity.

    The whole reaction here is idiotic. Stop trying to deny the Obama-ACORN connection. It’s a matter of record. You can’t change history by wishing it away.

    You’d be a lot better off sticking with the line that ACORN is being framed or going with their plausible deniability argument that it’s all the laziness of their employees.

    Or better yet, just admit that you love ACORN and admire their willingness to break any law and destroy our electoral process to get the socialists you love elected.

    Oh, and Cindy will LOVE this. At the conference I’m attending – where discussion of ACORN is on every tongue – Ken Blackwell (did your head just explode, Cindy?) was a speaker and made the very important point that integral to ACORN’s plan is the idea of same day voter registration, where you can just walk in and register and vote immediately. ACORN is pushing for this in almost every state. The objective is that in combination with their invalidation of the established voter rolls the registrars will be in a position where they are unable to verify anyone’s registration status, so ACORN can just bus supporters from polling place to polling place to vote over and over.

    Dave

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    As in teaching in seminars run by ACORN, not a subsidiary or an associated group. Obama, working for ACORN.

    I see. So someone teaching at any seminar is automatically an employee of whoever organized the seminar, yes?

    I’m sure Mr Blackwell will be surprised to learn that he’s now employed by Americans for Prosperity…

    Cannon @ #210:

    The result of the 2004 WA gubernatorial election was so close that no-one can possibly say for sure whether any of the suspect ballots would have made any difference. Purely due to human error, there could have been an almost infinite number of recounts and each and every one of them would have come up with a different result and a different winner.

    I do note that many of the convicted felons who voted – and were the subject of some of the Republican objections – were juveniles when they offended, and therefore not ineligible to vote under state law. And also that some of the ‘dodgy’ votes were not cast for Gregoire. Which muddied things still further.

    I suppose the sensible and fair thing would have been to hold a run-off election between Gregoire and Rossi. Sadly, I’m guessing the law didn’t provide for that.

  • Franco

    #187 — bliffle

    this whole ACORN fuss is a cynical attempt by the right wing to intimidate potential voters into not voting. lower turnouts generally favor rightists.

    bliffle, how many people who really exist, and are legally registered to vote, and can prove who they are, are going to be intimidated from voting?

    I would really like to hear your explanation for this in support of your statement!

    While your thinking up your answer for that, let me add this. I hope anyone who is planning to vote illegally is intimidated to the fucking bone from showing up! And if they show up and get busted, they should be tried, and if found quility of the fellony, should spead some time in a steel cage.

    You’re not intiminatied to vote are you bliffle?

  • http://jetsnewsviews.blogspot.com/ Jet

    The politically active wing of ACORN was created after 911 by the radical right in order to distract from Bush’s failure to protect the U.S. from attack, and to try to discredit any democratic candidates by trying to tie ACORN to them.

  • Cannonshop

    #120 Um, Jet, I thought “I” was paranoid. Dude, check your meds. That’s like saying that Jerry Falwell and the Moral Majority are a plot by the New Left to discredit Republicans.

  • Cindy D

    Franco,

    Have you looked at the statistics for in-person voter fraud? Can you answer the question: does voter fraud actually impact presidential elections?

    Maybe you’d like to find that out Don Quixote.

    Maybe you can tell me which of the following is more likely.

    Do androids dream of electric sheep?

    or

    Do right-wingers ever look at facts?

    I’m away for vacation. Have fun kids.

  • Cindy D

    Dave,

    Ken Blackwell, what a guy. Did you ask him how his Diebold stock was doing?

  • zingzing

    ok, let’s just say that acorn has fraudulently registered some democratic voters. now, let’s let our mind’s eye wander over toward michigan, where republicans are (in a possibly “legal” move) trying to make it so that those citizens (especially in the black areas of town) who’s homes have gone into foreclosure cannot vote, if they are registered to vote from that location. now, which is worse?

    hmm?

    look, tony romo is not going to vote in nevada. but, then again, neither is loretta no-home in michigan.

    and what’s your bet that the republicans are doing similar things in other hotly-contested areas? oh, i’m sure it’s a good bet. take it to vegas!

  • Les Slater

    In Sara Palin’s acceptance speech we find:

    “A writer observed: ‘We grow good people in our small towns, with honesty, sincerity, and dignity.’ I know just the kind of people that writer had in mind when he praised Harry Truman.
    I grew up with those people.”

    A writer? It’s interesting which writer was chosen to be part of that speech. The writer was Westbrook Pegler, a notorious anti-Semite, racist and an advocate of killing political opponents.

  • Cindy D

    For posterity, I think it’s worth it to put Bobby Kennedy Jr.’s words here:

    Governor Palin’s Reading List

    Fascist writer Westbrook Pegler, an avowed racist who Sarah Palin approvingly quoted in her acceptance speech for the moral superiority of small town values, expressed his fervent hope about my father, Robert F. Kennedy, as he contemplated his own run for the presidency in 1965, that “some white patriot of the Southern tier will spatter his spoonful of brains in public premises before the snow flies.”

    It might be worth asking Governor Palin for a tally of the other favorites from her reading list.

  • bliffle

    “Will McCain Take the Gloves Off Tonight?”

    Answer: McCain never had gloves on. He’s always been bare-knuckle. The problem with McCain is that he has no punch. Even when he has a good punch available he pulls it, as he did in the confrontation with W in 2000 after the SC primary.

    He’s confused and uncertain. He has no policy. He is consumed by the notion that if he just has all the power he wants that he’ll do The Right Thing. But he won’t.