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Why Young Women Go For Old Guys

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I teach at a women’s university. So as to be expected my students are women. And women do talk about things men rarely talk about. They talk about their relationships… a lot. And what I find them talking about in particular is the sorry state of men who are younger than 30. As a consequence, many of my students date men and even marry men significantly older than they are. So why do so many young women tell me they avoid young guys these days?

The answer is both sad and simple and it’s not all about the money. The problem, as my students put it, is that young men who were raised without fathers tend to be, well, “pussies”. Not that young men today don’t sport big muscles, or kill each other in drug shoot outs, or beat each other’s brains out in bars, but after all the macho bravado, most of them go back home to Mom. In fact, far too many young men still live with their moms. And young women want men who can take care of themselves rather than tough, tattooed and pierced pussies who depend on their mothers and, for all intents and purposes, have as the single most important goal in their lives the replacement of their mothers with large breasted mommy substitutes.

So boys if you want to have some luck with the ladies, I have a hint for you. Put off that next tattoo and that next rivet in your face and grow some real balls. Instead of just buying the “YOUR FATHER IS A BASTARD” line your mom sold you, pry yourself away from your mom and say “Hi” to your dad. You might be surprised. You really will do better with women. The old cliché used to be “If you want to know how he will treat you see how he treats his mother”. The new cliché is “If you want to know how he will treat you see how well he gets along with his father”.

In the post-divorce generation, boys lost their dads and as a consequence they are losing their women to the very same old guys their mothers divorced. Maybe the old guys limp and have a bit of grey hair, but they had dads, and they tend to be men. Young women actually like men; ask them if you don’t believe me.

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About carmine

  • disqus_LHmBDvdXKF

    Wow!, What a refreashing article.
    (Tatoos & piercings are a sign of a weak minded man/loser)

  • Ry

    In my opinion that shit is fail I dated a girl for 4 years I recently ended things with her because things started to change I diident feel the way I use 2 around her, she was always self conscience and always went through my phone i dident care I hade nothing to hide, we went or ways cupple months ago she is now 18 and I’m 21 with in a little over a week she changed her number, completely avoided me and started talking to this guy, little fast to me but every one is different I guess, The 8th day I drive by her house because it’s cupple blocks from mine and I see this guy me being a dick I text her and say that’s cutie how olds he, I’m thinking it’s one of her step pops friends because she hugged him and he looked old I’m thinking 27, so I drive by on my way home from work on a bad day 4 days later, I see them kiss made me a little mad so I chase the guy down , pull up 2 a red light copy his licens plate, get out the car grab him by the neck then I looke him in the eyes and told him I’d snap his neck if I see him agen, now I’m up close and he looks a little older so I say ur a sick fuck she’s still I’m high school when u graduate 1999, he speeds off I give his plate to a friend get all his info copy of his licens all that good stuff, here to finde out the fucker is 44 has herpes makes less then half of what I make a year and lives in a 1 bedroom apparment has an 19year old daughter his self witch makes it worse, the guy is older then my dad and 26 years older then her makes what I spend on sneakers a year has nothing to offer to his children let along an 18year old girl friend, that’s like me dating an infint, she’s either looking for the dad she never had or some one she think woulnt leave her, I just don’t get what she sees in a old man that has nothing going for him , I woudent be mad if it was a guy in his 20s or something , now she’s gonna rewin the rest of her life because she decided to replace all of her problems with a 44year old with herpes whom she knows nothing about and her piece of shit mom sit back and let this go on, there’s something Rong and her family is in denial and want to be friends instead of parents how is this legal it’s fucking sick yea every old guy wants a younger girl but 44-18 thats some crazy nasty shit I don’t know how a 44 year old man is praying on a week young immature girl not a woman a girl .

  • Zach

    alot of young women are attracted to power.

  • yogie

    i’ve been married twice. first time i was a junior in hugh school and i knock up the senior prom queen. it a long stories but i was never happy and i worked my ass off went to school six and half hours a day and then worked nine to tem hours a day. when our baby was borned i sold my 57 chevy two door hardtop. it was black and i still dream of it to this day.second time i married a woman three years older than me she was out of school and started her own practices, we’ve been married for almost 40 years, we have three lovely kids and now again it just her and me and our two pups at home. i love being married to my older wife. we do almost evrything together. she a doctor and im a electrician.life never been better. i think age only matter if it bothers either of you and it no one elses business .i think

  • Baybra

    I been saying this for years. The generation of mama boys. Its true and its the outcome of women getting there way and now not liking the outcome. Women wanted to dominate the world, be independent and equal to men and now crying the blues because there sons and daughters are out of control and dont know if they want to be there opposite sex. So confused. The bibles said that in the last days the children will grow wiser but weaker. They are soft but intelligent. I want my younger lady. The older ones are screwed up in the head to me. They dont know how to keep a man. They tear down a man any chance they get. Men gotten tired of the b.s. could only take so much. The weak minded men in office, your gov. let this womens lib in and now K.OSS.. Deal with it. I’m still a man and loving my young women. They love me because I’m one of the FEW thats left. I was fortunated to have a real man as a father in our lifes growing up and a beautiful mother 100% lady. You need both parents that knows there roles. Takes a tribe to raise kids. I had our neighbors getting on us growing up. not like it is today. No support but alot of unsupport and hating. The LAW is in the mix. WTF…who calls the cops. End days. all I have to say. They took God/Jesus out of everything. Bad decision. My opinion. and only a piece of it.

  • Existent

    Lol, my biological father didn’t want anything to do with me. The same is with my cousins’ biological fathers. You ever think about that? I called my biological father and gave the man chances. There is a reason he is a stranger, and I was naive for trying to connect with him. I learned to be who wanted to be rather than trying to be the same sort of man my father is. Calling men pussies is immature and lacks any understanding of their situation. I don’t see the connection with living with one’s mother with being fatherless as an adult because men with fathers live at home with their parents and men without fathers live alone or with a significant other. It’s possible more fatherless men live with their mothers due to being less better off economically, but I think this social phenomenon is much larger than fatherless men. I had to pay for my education and everything else myself whereas my girlfriend had everything paid for her by her parents. I was just less better off economically speaking. There is no way in hell I would financial depend on my girlfriend or anyone else.

  • nikkiz

    totally agree!

  • Frank

    I was orphaned at 3.5 . Raised to be a man. Have 6 children that love me. I take shit from no one. There are to many variables to this article. It is true about us older guys being men. But, the other reasons are in need of fine tuning! My boys have cried on my shoulder at 30 years of age. They have always been men amongst men.

  • virginia moller

    umm not all women pick older men i mean sure older men are sometimes really cute or hot but that does not mean we all go for the older men i mean my brothers best friends mom went for some one her sons age and he has got to be atleast 25 or 26 but that i really young she is like way past that age like wtf?

  • Lee

    “There seem to be a whole lot of posts around here lately blaming women for the consequences of divorce – my guess is that in any divorce, there’s enough blame to go around. If a man loses touch with his own children, I’d say that’s his own fault, or is the new game in town for men to play the victim card when it comes to broken marriages?”

    That’s the truth, but the courts & society favors the mother. The mother usually gets custody. Which means the mother has a valuable weapons at her disposal. The kids. The kids can then be used as proxies, agent provocateurs to alienate the father. It’s such a Catch22..if Obammer wanted to pour funds into something, it should be BigBrothers/BigSisters, so these moms can have a life and not make their kids their therapists..except everyone’s so addicted to fear, they’d think anyone who’d want to enroll in such a program is going to molest their kids. The United States of Catch22s.

  • Lee

    JDCarmine is right on the money. And all these nambypamby pretentious comments..All this obsession with control, power, “equality”..no, it’s not about equality, it’s about who’s better than who, who’s more “superior”. One-upsmanship, and zero cooperation. If the guy stays at home and looks after the kids, budgets, cooks..is he less of a man? I’m willing to bet, subconsciously, most the women in these comments would think so, and would think the woman “superior” for earning the wages. It’s called COOPERATION, you dimwits. You will soon see this country reach ZPG from all this chauvinism, gender confusion & unresolved baggage. The report from 15 years ago on “gender narcissism” is a very enlightening read. A child does not belong to the mother..nor to the father. The parents are stewards of a creation that is an aggregate of them & the almighty. A child is a gift from Nature, from God. So often I hear that “women create life”, like women are little golden fucking gods. No, good luck making life without a man. And if you treat a man like a sperm donor, little surprise, odds are a man will start to play the part treated that way long enough. This country is so hopelessly sick & narcissistic. Nobody just simply thinks about how someone makes them feel, if you share values, if you feel love with them, if you feel a connection. No, it’s “how old/young is she, how old/young is he, viceversa, how much money does he make, what’s he going to do for me, is he going to bully me, memememe”..FFS, just live life & actually LIVE it w/ another person, see the world through their eyes.

  • bush ape

    After 20 yrs of a good marriage, my wife went into menopause, the worst case, where the personality changes, for the next ten years with her it was terrible, I had been hit on many times by women, young and old, but never went there, then this beautiful 18 yr old very mature women hit on me, I was 48 at the time and didn’t understand why, she told me that the boys her age were to silly and stupid and she always liked older men, we got along excellent, but I knew it couldn’t last, she went back to her own country, and now I find that women my own age are to goddamed demanding and controlling, and very few can keep up with me. Younger women are easier to please, and a helluva lot more fun. Needless to say I was divorced after the first episode.

  • Older men care about their responsibilities, that is why younger women go for older guys. They tend to be more mature when it comes to decision making and take responsibilities for most of the things.

  • tsmith

    I am 26 years old and my husband is 58.we have been married for 8 years,and have a 9 month old daughter.He is my best friend i will always love him.

  • darrell

    Hey,some of you younger guys that live with mommy because you don’t make enough to be on your own.I cant say enough about you,or you say oh’ its the drugs that did this to me.Then you wonder why you cant get a woman,what real woman wants to be with you?yep when i drive down the road in my charger R/T,you sure do look at me.guess what so do the ladies.i will tell you the kicker at the end of this ok.For my age i look good,feel good,and have things.Leather real jewelary dress nice.And when i am with a younger woman,you all look at her like whats she doing with him? Daaaa,they can leave anytime they want.Your jealously is showing. iAM 64.

  • Orlon

    Young people and their are less of ’em being born will have deal with vigorous, sexy, intelligent elders especially males.
    I don’t how young women will deal with it money or no. Most men won’t be rich but they’ll have energy enough to try and succeed again.
    Me,right now I’m broke-think I worry about young or mature hotties not hooking me up? Nope my life depends on me not them. Because I didn’t do drugs,smoke, or drink much I’m much healthier for it now imagine me on anti-aging meds that work and reverse and keep retarding my aging as I deage backwards (think I’ll stop between 35 and 40) I’m 55! Think of those older who have more money and how they’ll be when they’re on A-A medicine.
    This isn’t a far future its happening NOW!

    I just how young folks instead of laughing making snarky remarks look into the science because in time they/we all become older if we’re blessed to live long enough.

  • Orlon

    Those posters of older men are coming in future just because they are not there now means nothing. What about hot mature women notice I wrote mature. Why didn’t you say mature men instead of old its ageism.

    The time is rapidly approaching when elder men and women won’t be able to be distinquised by looks alone then what will be said as sex elders men/women are on posters (ignore it as a fluke?)

    Old does not the mean what it use to mean get with it read up on Life X science.

  • Orlon

    Being from a broken home raised by tough mama. Its extremely difficult to connect back. Long ago I forgave my father one learns that some mom’s did keep pa away, moved without forwarding letter, sometimes burn those lettes sent. Or simply told the kid “He’s dead.” But 13-looking for father COME ON NOW he-she right in the start of highschool, girls/boys-boys/girs-girls, and puberty.
    Women have said Father’s aren’t important and now we see the results.
    I myself had a difficult time with girls, women and still do but unlike girls boys learn by experience not romance novels of how cruel girls/women and people in general can be if one is socially unaware.
    I had to hurry and catch up which meant lost years but glad to be on my own.

    I don’t think I could marry someone like my mother or aunt maybe that’s why I’m a batchelor from missing societal cue and clues my father wasn’t around to help me with. Could that why so many daughters and young women seem damaged also?

  • Matt

    As a man of 42, I decided to go back to college after a divorce. I have spoken to many a young lady and found a common thread. They tend to like older guys for two reasons: 1)We listen better and 2)Confidence

  • A username

    I guess this article would make more sense if it were in fact true that women prefer men who are significantly older. It isn’t. Statistically, women prefer men who are two years older, 2-4 inched taller, and who make 15-20% more money than they do. The opinions of the kind of women who attend a woman’s university really can’t be taken as a gauge of the larger society. These women don’t like interacting with men. Most women do. And the final advice “get a pair of balls” is about as sophisticated and helpful as any advice you’ll get from a lad’s magazine.

  • Cal

    What you say is too generalized? How about the man 40 year old+ who lives with his Mother because she is in ill health and needs him around? This is me. I care for mother (and would do anything to help anyone in need) I am looking for a woman younger than me who is caring: because I would like to share our care with each other and a future child, and provide example of what love and care is to the next generation. Anyone care to comment? I appreciate everyones thoughts.

  • K

    One other thing….

    If you were truly as educated as you make yourself out to be, you wouldn’t be incorporating archaic and offensively sexist terms in your spiel. It does nothing to add purchase to your argument.

  • K

    It’s a myth that younger women only go for older men. If that’s the case, then why is it older men who have no money are usually ignored by women? The author needs to be more explicit by saying that women are attracted to money and security, most of which old men bogard in this society. Any woman will find a younger man, under 35, more physically and sexually attractive. How many posters of old men adorn teen girls bedrooms?

  • Andrew

    I would agree with James that increased divorce rates in the last 20 or 30 years has effected how desirable younger men are to women as compared to older men but I would think that smaller or only child families may play a greater role. Only children tend to be more self centered which is a relationship killer.

  • C

    Older men past 33, increasing with age on a population level, is where non-familial the autism, etc. is coming from. Fine to be a couple when the man is older, but not so fine for the health of the children and grandchildren. Don’t look for this info in the media you have to search out paternal age research.

  • maria

    why cant people understand..its not love its pure narcesism on the mans part ….i have met quite a few woman with husbands more than 10 years older ..if you get them to the side ..and they start trusting you …you hear a different story none not one will do it again if they could start over again…this may be fun if the woman is 20 and the man 40…noooo fun woman 40 man 60 its becomming a joke than ..infact i have met quite a few woman that had man their own age and they had trouble handling them sexually…again when when 60 year old man date 80 year old woman and find it normal and lovely than and only than i will believe the bull about age aint nothing but a number..

  • Mari

    I probably will not be around to see what my children have when they are old so my concern is with what they have when they are young. I was responsible enough to stop having children after a certain age because I didn’t want to gamble with my children’s health. I believe one of those studies indicated that odds of having a Schizophrenic child with a man older then 50 is 1 in 47. The risk is way too high for me to just wing it and hope the child would be healthy. What if he/she isn’t? And how do I live with that? Schizophrenia usually doesn’t manifest until late teens to late twenties/early thirties.Many of these older fathers will probably be in urns before they find out if they have passed this on to their off springs.

  • Mari

    There is simply less gamble genetically having children with old men, you see exactly what your kids get… when they get old.

    There are fewer gambles genetically when you have children with a young man. They are for the most part the healthiest and their bodies have not been ravaged by time. (higher testosterone rates/lower sperm mutations etc). They also have the energy required to help raise these children.

  • carmine

    All true enough, genetic defects affect chidren of both sexes as they age, but clearly women suffer a vastly more significant fertility wall than men, and more significantly, though women like men have higher rates of birth defects as they age, for women it is categorically more severe. For example, there is no protocol for amniocentesis for old fathers as there is for moms over thirty. But nevertheless, if you have healthy offspring with an older man then the likelihood that your offspring will reach that age are genetically increased. Additionally, if he is successful, that also selects for whatever are the factors that lead to success. There is simply less gamble genetically having children with old men, you see exactly what your kids get… when they get old.

  • Mari

    This is from one of the articles that Carmine was talking about:

    “Among those who had stayed with one partner during their reproductive lives, they found that the peak number of children was born to women with partners four years older than themselves. The most fecund men were those with partners six years younger. Clearly, in evolutionary terms, the age difference really is good for both sides. Toyboys, apparently, just do not deliver the goods.”

    A partner four years younger or 6 years younger is still the same generation and not very much of an age gap. Most of the couples that I know have this type of age difference. This isn’t what we are talking about.

    How does this article give evidence that it is wise for a woman to marry and procreate with someone that could be her father or even grandfather’s age? Given that men die younger then women, this would mean that she would be a young widow having to tend to her young children by herself.

  • Mari

    Funny that we should be bringing up this topic. I was just discussing this with one of the Genetic scientist that works at the same university that I do.

    Apparently the New York Times(February, 2007) printed an article about men having their own biological clock to deal with.

    Here is a little sampling: “Analyses of sperm samples from healthy men have found changes as men age, including increased fragmentation of DNA, and some studies outside the United States have noted increased rates of some cancers in children of older fathers.

    Geneticists have been aware for decades that the risk of certain rare birth defects increases with the father’s age. One of the most studied of these conditions is a form of dwarfism called achondroplasia, but the list also includes neurofibromatosis, the connective-tissues disorder Marfan syndrome, skull and facial abnormalities like Apert syndrome, and many other diseases and abnormalities.”

    It’s really a fascinating read and it makes sense really. It’s an older body making sperm, so of course there is room for genetic mutations.

    Here is another
    : Nonetheless, a virtual tidal wave of recent research has made it irrefutable: Not only does male fertility decrease decade by decade, especially after age 35, but aging sperm can be a significant and sometimes the only cause of severe health and developmental problems in offspring, including autism, schizophrenia, and cancer. The older the father, the higher the risk. But what’s truly noteworthy is not that infertility increases with age–to some degree, we’ve known that all along–but rather that older men who can still conceive may have such damaged sperm that they put their offspring at risk for many types of disorders and disabilities.

    “Men thought they were getting off scot free, and they weren’t. The birth defects caused by male aging are significant conditions that can cause a burden to families and society,” says Ethylin Wang Jabs, professor of pediatric genetics at Johns Hopkins University and leader of a recent study showing the link between aging paternity and certain facial deformities in offspring. “We now know that men and women alike could be increasing the risk of infertility or birth defects by waiting too long to have children.” In other words, by looking for perfection in your life before you conceive, there’s a very real chance you’ll have less perfect kids.”

    If you need further info just access the wonder that is Google.

    Carmine dear, if we are really going to adhere to the rules of evolution then young women should breed with their “fit” counterparts: young men. Both have the health, the youth and the stamina to deal with the stressful task of raising young children.

  • carmine

    Andro-pause is nonsense. Read Economist article “This Old Man” Sept 1, 2007. Papers in evolutionary biology by Shripad Tuljapurkar of Stanford in Public Library of Science, and by Fieder and Huber from Universities in Vienna, in Biology Letters, give good evolutionary evidence for the advantage of fertile young women having offspring with old demonstrably genetically long-lived old men.

  • maria

    its simple ..a 50 year old man is as old as a 50 year old woman ..even with the newest advances..woman and man reach meno/adropause at about the same time …so bla bla ..young woman want money and when they get older the leave these old man ..and thats that…neither the old man or the young woman possess any morality just selfish people getting together for a big game of expoitation….and they know whom they are that is why the have to make up stories of older woman are beastie and feminists lol ….and older man are just wonderful angels that are so deserving of a 30 year old …funny really…and if age does not matter i believe this bull when i see 50 year old males dating 70 year old woman in droves ..man are selfish and sociopathic…thats all ..i smell mothballs lol

  • Catey

    I am, of course, going on the assumption,^^, that vampires live forever.

  • Catey

    Excellent point Mari….

    He’s also not going to live forever, unless he can get the sorcerers stone, and last I heard,,(I’m almost finished with book 1) a certain Mr. Flamel (six hundred and sixty-five last birthday) had it, living what appears to be a commited marriage to his wife Perenelle (six hundred and fifty-eight).

  • Ashtoreth

    “I always thought vampires were suppose to be young and good looking…”

    Mari, LOL! 😉

    Thank you for your lovely words too.

  • Mari

    Goodness Ash,

    You sure have a way with words. Brilliantly said.
    However I would change the vampire needs blood to leech needs blood. I always thought vampires were suppose to be young and good looking 🙂

  • Catey

    But its so much fun. You’re right though, thanx for reminding me Ash…:)

  • Ashtoreth


    Your comment showed up on the side column and I had to drop by and see. I’m so sorry to learn about what you suffered with your first marriage. Don’t give up, though I would take lots of time to heal and love yourself so you do not attract another pathological man.

    You have your wits and a damn fine wit, which counts for a lot.

    As for sparring with the intractable irascible Carmine, it can be awful good fun, and your comments are priceless, but arguing with narcissists is ultimately pointless.

    When you are done with him, abandon him.

    He is a master of dissembling and projection, which is why he needs naive young girls the way a vampire needs blood or a drug addict needs his supply. Only they can be fooled as to his towering intellectual personage and to their proper position of awe-struck submission.

    Your experience and suffering mean nothing to the narcissist. He will just show you his contempt.

    As unique and grandiose as narcissists think they are, they are really terribly banal, but a joy to provoke if you are in such a mood. 😉 Just don’t be set on winning with them, because you won’t.

    Ultimately, you have to disengage, thumb your nose, and live your life with gusto, joy, and much pleasure, which will cause the narcissist no end of agita.

    *I smell mothballs…* LOL

  • Catey

    My baggage consists of suppressed anger and sorrow due to an abusive marriage from the age of 17 to 32. After my divorce from him at 32, I have never remarried.

    His psychological problems were rooted in his childhood (IMO) as the result of an abusive father, and it left him with bizarre disorders, like kleptomania, and a sociapathic personality.

    So alls I know is…at 17, I went from a world of order and insulation, to a living nightmare.

    I’m not the type to over generalize, so I do not think that all men are bad like he is.

    I smell mothballs, so please go back to ignoring me.

  • eg. Catey

  • Catey

    Can you sayyyy…BAGGAGE MUCH? ^ ^ ^

    (perhaps some concealed hostility?)

    Gonna have to go a lil bit younger.

    Dang it all those mean nasty people out there making this man DO this.

  • STM: Regarding #110. On that you are probably wrong. Our hyper-feminized culture’s malicious exaggeration of self-centered, dead beat, Homer Simpson, dads, is less than fully accurate. Check out Fathers 4 Justice or RADAR. I conjecture most absent dads were systematically thrown out of their children’s lives and many were jailed when they tried to get involved. That is the real problem that led to so many men and women, now in their twenties and thirties, being raised fatherless as children. The NOW crowd’s pervasive malignant anti-father, anti-family ideology led to the current situation of so many young women with older men and so many young men today without independence. Our culturally sanctioned father hatred ain’t too good for kids.

  • STM: Bingo! Right on every point. And to extend on brilliance, most men can’t stand “prize dickheads either.”

  • STM

    And in cases where men haven’t had their fathers around, I’d say most of the time that’s because a lot of fathers are self-centred bastards who have been too irresponsible or angry to spend any time with their children. Lucky, then, for those boys that they did have women around to nurture them. And bad luck, I’d say, for the women who end up with them second time around.

  • STM

    Carmine, where I used to live in Sydney, there were a bunch of guys who were trying to get “in touch with their masculine warrior side” by running around a football ground in the early morning dressed in loin cloths, chanting war cries and carrying spears (at a suburban rugby league ground, no less, where blokes get in touch with their warrior side every Sunday over winter by running with a ball in hand up the field and smashing into each other like runaway freight trains).

    One of the spear carriers, a guy I knew, asked me if I’d like to join. Lol. I suspect it was because he wasn’t entirely comfortable with what he was doing and needed some reinforcement.

    Me? I prefer the football way. I just suggested if they really wanted to do a bit of warrior bonding, and they couldn’t be bothered playing footy, they all go to the pub for a few hours instead and get on the piss and slap each other on the back and tell bullsh.t like every other bloke in Australia.

    You are right that most women don’t want reconstructed males, or metro-sexual types, but they also don’t want prize dickheads either.

    The best way for men who’ve been “emasculated” to bond and discover what being a man is really about is to be around other men, and it doesn’t have to be your father. You know, to have real role models. And there’s also that feminine side that we don’t talk about much. I’d almost guarantee that for all the bluster that goes on, most men still prefer the company of women in many situations.

    And I don’t believe most women prefer the company of older men, and vice-versa. Some like younger blokes, and some just don’t care that much.

    Somewhere in the middle might be closer to the truth. Still, it’s not a bad topic considering it’s still going a few years after you posted it.

  • Catey

    Ohh lawdy, here we go again with being accused of hostility.

  • Glen

    Ok, I stand corrected. This is an international site, and just to set the record straight, I’m not a navel-gazing American, I am a Canadian…so, Fair dinkum…..Eh?

  • Dan

    Naa, I don’t think my post was so far off the mark.

    As unsettling as the idea of some different types of relationships are for progressive women, there is a dominant/submissive archtype that is prevalent in most cultures.

    A common complaint among strong willed, actualized women is a lack of suitable mates.

    That’s because they don’t want equals, they only respect men they perceive as exceeding them.

    Couples that do this type of relationship to their mutual satisfaction don’t worry about equalness. There’s not a competition between them.

    And Mari, don’t try to tell me that vivacious 35 year old widows, financially secure, and at sexual peak, didn’t engage in some intentional daliance in 17th century Latin America.

    I didn’t say it was openly encouraged. Just that it’s natural, and it happened.

    Your version of cruelty and oppression happened as well.

    Im not one to make simplistic and sweeping judgements about the texture of diverse human interaction in any time period.

    Like this one:

    “In fact, once the wife had the necessary heirs those two probably never slept together again.”

    It’s not a “news flash” to me that women like sex. But they’re far more selective, and calculating in their approach.

    Why would I try to “push” the observation that women prioritize security over sexual gratification? I don’t care if I’m agreed with.

    Even though it’s not be a universal truth, I’m not trying to inflict the idea on anyone.

    Examine that impulsive hostility.

  • Catey

    Yay, Mari and Lisa 🙂 there was so much wrong with
    Dan’s post up there I didnt even know where to start, ty.

  • When the man is sort of a mentor and the woman is somewhat dependent, he needs to give the woman room to grow.

    What you’re describing, Dan, sounds more like a father/daughter relationship than a marriage. A successful marriage ought to be a partnership between equals. I can’t imagine why any woman would want anything less than that. I know why some men find the idea attractive, but they’re not looking for equal partners so much, are they?

  • Mari

    When the man is sort of a mentor and the woman is somewhat dependent, he needs to give the woman room to grow. Rarely is he a jealous type. Done right, these things work out really well.

    …Unfortunately these things are never done right. Dan, did you ever grow up in a Latin culture? I am Hispanic so I know all about the history of Latin America. The concept of letting the woman grow is total bullcrap. Many times these households were ruled with an iron fist, in which the wife was expected to be seen and not heard. Do you know that Chile was the last country in Latin America to not allow divorce. The minute that law changed THOUSANDS of women filed for divorce, leaving behind the security that you say we all crave. The question that needs to be asked is why? Perhaps they were tired of being mistreated, cheated upon, beaten etc…etc.. Latin men are notorious for being the hot-tempered jealous types. I lived this firsthand.

    Once, when studying latin american aristocracy, in the 16-18th century, I was struck by the naturalness of the typical societal arraingement.
    The men, after establishing themselves in some sort of meaningful self-support – usually around their mid 30’s – would select very young women, scandalous by today’s standards, and set up shop.

    ..There was nothing natural about that system. Most of the time the women weren’t even consulted. They were sold, bartered by their families for financial gain. They didn’t have a way of supporting themselves nor were they allowed to go to school. Everything she had was controlled by someone else. So they went from their father’s home to their new husband’s home, without even being given a chance to live. There were no grand tours, or an opportunity to sow those wild oats. It was convenient to keep them child-like. How in the world could you control them if you didn’t? They were just vessels with which to produce the new line.

    Another thing, these people were Catholics. Catholics have never pushed the whole you have sex for enjoyment campaign. Sex was only for procreation and the wife was taught to “bear it.” Many of these men had mistresses anyway. She was the one that you enjoyed sex with while the little wife was neatly tucked away somewhere “in the country.” In fact, once the wife had the necessary heirs those two probably never slept together again.

    Of course you think it was a wonderful thing, men had a sweet deal going on there. Everything was nicely controlled by them.

    Of course, people didn’t live long back then, and when the fellow died, his estate was split between his wife and sons, and his wife, financially secure and at sexual peak, would have discreet, but not societally condemmed affairs with young un-established men.

    ..Actually I think the sons inherited everything and they were suppose to take care of their mother. Once again, this was a Catholic society, I sincerely doubt that the masses were giving Dona Conchita the thumbs up to screw young men when she became a widow.

    Women like security, men like sex. After women have security, then they like sex. Men always just like sex.

    Why do men continue to push this one? Newsflash! Women also love sex. This women that is writing back to you loves sex. I have loved sex since the moment that I first had it and I hope that God will allow me the opportunity to continue to have sex in the years to come. With a good, physically appealing and considerate lover, a woman will always love sex.

    And the whole security issue. I don’t think I know someone that doesn’t want and crave some type of security. Security benefits both sides of the male/female equation. Isn’t it a wonderful feeling to know that you could pay for the roof over your head? That you have a reliable car in your driveway to get you to work? That you can pay for the food that nourishes you? I want security and I have NO PROBLEM working along side my partner in order to achieve it. Where I come from the women who barter sex for money are called prostitutes. I know many secure women but very few prostitutes. These women all work for everything they have and they also enjoy sex with their partners.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    “What good is it to split hairs over which terms have different meanings in different countries. This is an American site. Deal with it!”

    The Comments Editor who passed on your comment, allowing it to remain – and on this one – is a British expat living in Spain.

    Glen, if this was solely an American site, I wouldn’t bother posting on it myself. This is an international site – one of the reasons I do post here. There are a lot of navel-gazing Americans who cannot see beyond either the Atlantic or Pacific – but they’re learning – as will you eventually.

  • Silver Surfer

    Glen: “This is an American site. Deal with it!”

    Fair dinkum, what a prize dickhead … actually, it’s an international site. And, ah, you know about tongues and cheeks, don’t you?

  • Catey

    Some facts about my father…

    He could see the ground thru the holes in the floor of the house he grew up in.

    He went to work at a very early age to help out his family.

    He had to watch helplessly as his alcoholic father brutalized his mother when he was growing up.

    He had the task of facing his father (when he got older and bigger) and threatening him in an attempt to stop him from harming his mother.

    Alcoholism finally killed his father, and he took care of his mother (my grandmother) until she died in her 80’s. (Financially helped to support her, looked after her, attentive to her needs while she maintained her own residence). He did this while raising his own family.

    He also looked after my mom’s mother until she died.

    His sister, my auntie, is also married (lifetime partner) to an exceptional man, but my dad still keeps close contact with her…just in case she should ever need him.

  • Glen

    What good is it to split hairs over which terms have different meanings in different countries. This is an American site. Deal with it!

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    I’m with the Silver Surfer on issues of misuse of English. Where I live, you get to learn to recognize very quickly the variations between English out of the mouth of the Londoner, New Yorker, South African, Dubliner, and farm boy from East Texas, not to mention the weird locutions from the land where the water goes down the drain the wrong way.

    So Carmine and Ashtoreth, take note, both of you – or you’ll find yourselves knocked over and fileted like the Philistine Fishy was in Ashdod after the Philistines captured the Ark of the G-d of Israel three millennia ago (see I Samuel 5:1-8).

  • Dan

    Catey’s mom and dad are an example of a kind of traditional relationship that’s really positive and enduring. And also seems most natural.

    Of course she gives the qualifyer: “men like my father are hard to come by.”

    When the man is sort of a mentor and the woman is somewhat dependent, he needs to give the woman room to grow. Rarely is he a jealous type. Done right, these things work out really well.

    Men and women are very divergent co-species. They’re mental developement rates aren’t correspondent chronologically.

    Once, when studying latin american aristocracy, in the 16-18th century, I was struck by the naturalness of the typical societal arraingement.

    The men, after establishing themselves in some sort of meaningful self-support – usually around their mid 30’s – would select very young women, scandalous by today’s standards, and set up shop.

    Of course, people didn’t live long back then, and when the fellow died, his estate was split between his wife and sons, and his wife, financially secure and at sexual peak, would have discreet, but not societally condemmed affairs with young un-established men.

    Even though that type of deal doesn’t have the appeal of a contemporary egalitarian romantic fantasy of a young couple nurturing and growing together, partners for life kind of thing, it does seem practical from a sexual physiology, and mental developement angle.

    Women like security, men like sex. After women have security, then they like sex. Men always just like sex. They usually also discover that they need to provide security to achieve sex. Both are capable of emotional love even though that’s not a practicle matter.

  • STM

    Carmine writes: “Love between mates.”

    Geez, mate. Here is another classic example of how usage can differ (ashtoreth take note) across the English-speaking world: Mate is possibly the most used slang word down under.

    If you were to talk about “love between mates” in a pub in Sydney (apart from the gay strip around Oxford St Paddington), you’d possibly end up with a flat nose. Or you’d be called a a “cat”

    So Carmine, mate, you have to be careful of such usage.

  • Catey

    Actually, I love men, I have two sons, a father, and brothers, all whom I love dearly. My dad and mom have been married for more than 50 years, theonly marriage either one has ever known.

    My mom has always had a childlike dependence on my dad, my dad is and always has beenthe king of his castle.My mother never spoke badly of my dad, always defered to him. What I learned about independence, and standing on my own two feet I learned on my own the hard way and from other females.

    Not that my mom doesnthave special good qualities. She is an angel.The epitome of a good mother and wife.But men like my father are hard to come by.

    I dated a guy significantly olderthan me some years back. He was in his early forties, I believe we were approx. 15 years apart in age.

    He wouldnt let me be a younger person.In many ways, he expected me to be on a equal level with him, and it felt silly, some things. I was beginning to feel all used up already.

    I even told him one time, “Bill, you need to get with someone your own age” His answer? “Noooo, no, no” , making me feel way older than my years.

    Enough of that, I didnt want to feel old before my time.

    To each his own.Claim your own baggage.

  • Mari

    1. Young men have been rendered fatherless and insecure of their masculinity by Boomer mothers.

    Dear Carmine, nothing stopped these men from being a positive influence in their son’s life. They divorced the mother (or were divorced by the mother) they didn’t have to also divorce their children. MANY men just walk away without even looking back and even worse without even offering a penny of financial support for their children. I’m sure is documented somewhere the millions of dollars that are owed in uncollected child support payments.

    Interesting, how replies that don’t agree with the World according to Carmine are labeled bizarre, yet all of those that responded against your theories have their own VALID points.

    I don’t believe that I have ever questioned the right for someone to find love or happiness with someone alot younger or older. If you do then more power to you. What pissed me off (for lack of a better word) about your article was the way that you felt the need to stereotype and unfairly criticizes younger men and older women. Unless you have met with and personally interacted with MILLIONS of these people how can you go on and on and generalize about how young men are pussies and Boomer women being these older, bitter hags.

    Many of these women had to raise their sons and daughters all by themselves and many did the best they could. Instead of looking down my nose at them, I hold them in the highest respect. It’s not an easy thing to raise a child and an even harder thing to raise them alone. You know Carmine, children are alot more perceptive then what you give them credit for. My mother didn’t have to bash my father to me, I had eyes, I saw we he did. His actions spoke loud and clear to me about the type of selfish man that he was.

  • Mari

    I have to agree with that Catey. When you put others down in order to elevate yourself it only shows a great deal of insecurity as well as jealousy. For all his talk of young men being “pussies” Carmine knows that these men will always be a threat.

  • Oy Gevalt! Silver Surfer,
    Look many, many, many women in their twenties and early thirties are loving, dating, marrying and having children with men significantly older than they are. The harangue of those who wish it weren’t so is pretty irrelevant. The question is why? I have given two reasons: 1. Young men have been rendered fatherless and insecure of their masculinity by Boomer mothers. 2. Many Boomer women have a pervasive negative attitude towards men. The bizarre responses here validate both reasons.

    My sense is it is fully reasonable, and right, to marry and have children with someone you love despite the age difference. May December marriages present all sorts of challenges but they are not irresolvable challenges. But marrying someone who hates men on principle, or someone who diminishes women on principle, well, that is doomed. Better 25 years apart in age than the same age and ideologically disparate.

    Yes Love is real. It is not anything to be embarrassed about and it is not lust, or goddess nonsense, or Cialis, or Li’l Kim’s rear end. It is a commitment to the future, a leap of faith that together, two people, in love, will bring about a perpetually better future. Love between mates, regardless of sex or gender, is based on a perpetual optimism that the two of you are able to make tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow more beautiful.

  • Catey

    Carmine tried to unload his issues,his baggage, on young men and women in a certain age group, in the public domain. I suspect he knew fully well what kind of response he would get.According to the date the article was posted, it took 2 years for me, Catey, to show up.What chutzpah!

  • Silver Surfer

    I notice Carmine hasn’t popped out of the woodwork yet to defend himself.

    Come on mate, this is no place for pussycats, cats or anything else 🙂

  • Catey

    It is you who is pretending to misunderstand.

  • duane

    Good grief, Ashtoreth, you’ve inspired me to break my New Year’s resolution.

    Carmine makes an innocuous comment stating his opinion that women don’t like men who are “pussies” (he even put it in quotes), then STM points out the obvious fact that you are jumping down the guy’s throat for what STM assumes is a misconstrual of Carmine’s choice of language (I know yer smarter than that). You know damn well what Carmine was saying, and I am sure that you would agree with that particular point. Very few women are attracted to “pussies,” which is just another word for Mama’s boy, wimp, candy-ass, punk, wet behind the ears, spineless, weak-willed, flaky, namby-pamby, lightweight, and so on. If you are put on the defensive by the choice of this word, since you know the intent of the word, I can only surmise that you are the lady-goddess that doth protest too much. Do you see yourself in any of those synonyms? Hmmm …. If not, then your reaction can mean only one thing. You wanna fight with Carmine. So, bleagghh.

    As you also know, English words have a variety of meanings. “Pussy” is one of those words. And with the variety of meanings goes a variety of etymologies. Do you think the term candy ass has something to do with Hershey bars? No? Good, good. Similarly, “pussy,” in this context, has nothing to do with female anatomy, and even less (that’s right, less than nothing) to do with misogyny.

    You know the difference between “the letter of the law” and the “spirit of the law”? Do you see how that distinction might apply here?

    And instead of simply admitting that you’re attempting to undermine Carmine by charging him with the crime of using a $1 word, when, clearly, a $50 word was required to meet your stratospheric standards, pretending to misunderstand Carmine so that you can belittle him for other reasons, you tell STM to chill. Oh, mother-goddess girl, that ain’t fair fightin’. How bout chillin’ your #81 comment instead?

    I hope you and your fellow (and there’s another word you can tear up) ageistic Zidonians will back off lest we start to think you’re a pack of raving misandrists.

  • STM

    No Ashtoreth, I’m certainly not Carmine … no academic, that’s fot sure – FYI, I’m an unreconstructed Australian surfer with a station wagon full of surfboards, wetsuits, melting wax, smelly towels and assorted other detritus, but one who has never used the term “pussy” – mainly because I think it sounds absurd especially when applied to the female genitalia.

    However, I am very interested in the origin of words and how their usage has spread and morphed culturally and geographically across the English-speaking world. It’s one of the reasons why Australians think Americans sound absurd, and vice-versa 🙂

    As for Carmine, I say unless he comes to his own rescue here, he can only ever be regarded as a cat.

  • Ashtoreth

    Me thinks the lady doth protest too much.

    STM are you Carmine?

    Queen, please. Chill.

    Yes Catey, the pool boy would definitely come with less baggage than Carmine – or his alter-ego STM.

    And don’t you be insulting cats, boy. 😉

  • STM

    Extra evidence for Ashtoreth: the term pussycat is still widely used in England and some other English-speaking countries with the same meaning in this sense as theb term pussy is used in America. The line of evolution through the English-speaking world is the key to this.

    How it evolved along a different line in the US to also mean female genitalia, however, is something that escapes me utterly.

  • STM

    Ashtoreth wrote: “Also Carmine, your choice of an insulting word for the female genitalia (‘pussy/pussies’) to define and demean what you perceive as inferior specimens of men as you did in your article, underlines your fundamental misogeny.”

    Yes, no doubt he could’ve just called them dickheads instead. And despite what most people think, the term pussies used in the perjorative actually refers to the cat-like qualities of men who prefer to slink away and hide rather than face up to anything – and is a bastardisation of the original term.

    Indeed, it was never intended to have anything to do with female genitalia. As evidence: the term “cat” is still commonly used in Australia in exactly the same perjorative way as the US term “pussies”. Always pays to go back and check the history of English and weigh up the evidence before jumping to ill-informed conclusions, especially when you want to use them to bash the writer.

  • Catey

    Mari, I’m sorry to hear that you had to witness that growing up. I’m glad to hear you have gone past it, I know it can be hard.

    These things have a way of coming up on your blindside, lol.Something triggers a memory, an emotion, and were off to the races.

    Ashtoreth,do you think the pool boy has all that baggage that Carmine seems to be luggin around?


  • Ashtoreth

    Wow Mari, what a beautiful powerful story!

    We were both scribbling furiously, LOL. 😉

    Your mother was a heroine. I hear same in your voice. Your words hit a chord with the idea of ‘the abuse of a 100lb woman, that he couldn’t help it.’ Shame on him. He just felt entitled to do that to her. He was a narcissist. Sounds like wife #2 was his mirror image.

    I must say the ironic note from the younger wife about ‘being too young to be a nurse’ and running off with all his loot and ‘everything that was not tied down’, was too funny.

    The part about her leaving him for the younger man she was boinking on the side?


    Oh Snap, Carmine!

    Loves eet. 😉

  • Ashtoreth

    *blushes, takes bow* 😉

    I applaud what you said too, Catey. Your list reads like a human manifesto that women should tack to their bathroom cabinets to remind them of every morning.

    Unfortunately, many women, this writer included, have experienced violence for expressing those very same rights which should be inalienable. It stems from the misogynistic view (that dies hard it seems) that women are not people, that they are not full humans, but there to uphold the faltering egos of men and their unnatural premise that they are superior over us. It’s a lie. Always was, always will be.

    It is saddening, even terrifying to think men like Carmine are in academia. What poor examples they give to your daughters, and in exchange for your hard earned money.

    For women still, in this country and around the world, in poor uneducated homes and in affluent well-educated homes, your list of rights which should be self-evident is not often the case, and it should be.

    Power is not given. It is taken. Take your power. Claim your power. Never look to men to ‘give’ this too you. They will not and they cannot – but they CAN take it away from you, if you let them. They can undermine and subvert it, if you let them.

    I have been saddened many times as an artist to discover that male colleagues who I thought were my friends, who would run to me with their accomplishments, query me with their problems, rely on me for input and support; but when I needed and expected same, I did not receive it. It was like I had done something wrong and had to sit with my cake alone.

    The very idea that I had needs like them for support and acknowledgment was met with hisses and stony silence. I have cried and finally ended some of these false friendships because of this. I learned that in the end, it was all about them. The friendship was really one-sided and was only supposed to benefit them.

    I was useful as a muse and emotional fountain to drink from when they doubted themselves, but my work and achievements were met with arched sense of competition, belittling or worse, ignoring. What a slap. That does make a woman bitter. This is only one example.

    In so many arenas, women pour themselves out, men take, and give back little. Worse, they demean and object to them even having needs or dreams at all. It’s incredibly narcissistic. In their minds, it’s all about them, from beginning to end. Then, you begin to hear the demeaning indictments of men like Carmine, and it is no wonder they are mad, and sad.

    What Carmine fails to realize though is that anger can be a tool for women as long as it is not stuffed down inside them while they maintain a shit-eating smile on their faces. That is a recipe to get sick. It can be a fire, an engine, a blasting weapon that powers through walls that fenced a woman in, some that she even contributed to building in her committed attempts to ‘be good’ in the eyes of narcissistic men like Carmine, and a society which demands this of them, regardless of what it costs them.

    Just as kittens become cats, ingenues become women. Otherwise, they end up like B. Spears, and Anna Nicole Smith, ANS because she checked out as she was rushing upon that existential point of irrelevence, her 40th birthday.

    There is much yet to explore and celebrate. We have to see this and embrace it, not look down into a pit and fall in. To the women in their 20’s, do you want to die at 40, literally or figuratively?

    It is a terrible form of psychological and social abuse to be exposed to the toxic thoughts of men like Carmine, whose reflections I see in men I know or have known. It teaches women to hate themselves, to give up on themselves. That is what these men want by launching such campaigns to decimate womens spirits.

    The message is clear. We hate you now. You disgust us. Go quietly, or kill yourself, but GO!

    Word to the narcissist, HELL NO.

    It is the practice of the malignant narcissist to seek to project upon the hated object and annihilate it, create in his mind ‘the good breast’ and ‘the bad breast’. The narcissistic males plant the seeds echoed by a society that makes a female child a woman -(see what good this has done for Lindsey Lohan and Britney Spears.)- and to make women obsolete.

    Both the narcissistic male and the patriarchal society who bred and entitled him turn on women and seek to drive them to the cliffs, to try to make them look in the mirror and see all the oldness and vileness the narcissistic older man does not want to own in himself, so he projects it onto his feminine counterparts, violently rejects it/her, and seeks newer fresher narcissistic supply and the fantasy of escaping death and decay by reaching for a younger woman and impregnating her.

    Did you know that due to aging sperm and chromosomal changes that children born to older men have a higher incidence of autism and birth defects? Indeed. Just as women’s eggs get old, don’t kid yourself that men’s sperm does not and stays ‘ever new’. Their tired old muskets are not just shooting blanks sometimes, but often deteriorating chromosomes.

    I’m sure this is even more true of men of Carmine’s generation, many of whom have done drugs through the 60’s, 70’s, 80’s…

    Gee, that pool boy just keeps getting better looking all the time. 😉

    The narcissist uses those younger women as tools in his service, just as he used the older women as tools in his service, first to build him up, empower him in his career, and then as toilet paper, something to wipe his waste on; and then wrinkling his nose with contempt, flush it away.

    Recognize a narcissist. Don’t be their tool. Don’t be their sacrifice. The price is too high. This goes for young women too, but many don’t have the knowlege or experience to see, so I have to wish you the best. It can take years to learn this, especially if your father was a narcissist. Hopefully, not too many.

    Don’t look for your reflection in a narcissist’s eyes. Whatever you do, don’t look for their approval as a mark of your self worth. He is only looking at himself/for himself and will only give you the reflection of yourself that suits him. You will see a monster if you claim your voice and look into his eyes. Never mind. That is not the truth.

    Regardless of you age as a woman, be kind to yourself. Respect yourself. Take back your power. Love yourself and enjoy your life. Fight for your best health. Fight for your best life. Take joy in life, and you will be beautiful, mysterious, irresistible – no matter what your age.

    Examine agendas. Laugh at these mean old men and see them for what they are. Love yourself, in spite of all. In defiance of all. Be fierce. You will attract love where and when you least expect it. Live life with passion. Live life as art.

    Remember, we are the embodiment of the goddess and her mysteries. Carmine is not.

  • Mari

    …I had a right to speak up, even get a bit sassy, without being backhanded in the mouth or slammed against the wall.

    A chill ran up my spine when I read that. You see I was also child of that movement and like many, I watched as my father beat my mother and verbally abuse his children. See, Carmine some fathers actually are BASTARDS.

    But of course the terror my sisters and I felt at the hands of this man or the broken bones the my mother was forced to endure are the “arrogant” antics of a man that was so victimized and so abused by his 100 pound wife, that he just couldn’t help himself. Of course the young woman that would show him the errors of his ways had not arrived yet in his life. (eyeroll)

    What angers me the most was that he never payed any consequences for his actions.

    When he started to direct his physical abuse at my sisters and I, my mother took a stand and finally threw his behind to the curb. Alone, she went on to raise three girls and obtain a Master in Early Childhood Education, without a penny from him.

    This, in my opinion, is the definition of a REAL woman. A woman that can stare adversity in the face and say…you could knock me around, but you won’t make me fall!! A woman that can stand by her man and take comfort and give it as well. That is what I aspire to be.

    In spite of all that she went through, my mother never lost her great capacity to love or to bring joy to all those around her. She refused to be bitter and cynical. She use to tell me all the time, “if I allow that to happen, then he accomplished what he could not do with his fists.” “He has broken me.”

    My father eventually remarried to a much younger woman. A relationship that from the very beginning was tumultuous at best. As long as she was benefitting from the relationship she stayed around. He gave her a good life and helped her to raise her two kids, while denying his own children that luxury. When my father was 59 he had a heart attack and while he laid in his hospital bed fighting for his life, his dear wife went home, packed up everything that wasn’t nailed down, emptied out their savings and headed for the hills. Did I forget to mention that she did so with a man that was actually younger then her. Apparently she had been having an affair behind my dad’s back for some time. Karma is a bitch!! She was kind enough to leave a note though, it read something along the lines of her being too young to play nurse.

    The irony of all the story is that in my father’s darkest moment it was my mother who took care of him. She brought him to her home, much to the chagrin of my stepfather and nursed him back to health. Needless to say, my sisters and I were pissed to no end. My mother took us all aside and in that matter of fact voice that is so characteristic of her, she told us, “how can she not help the man that gave her the three best gifts of her life. In that moment I learned the important lesson of humility and forgiveness.

    You see the greatest lessons in my life I have learned at the knee of an amazing woman, who had the balls to say “No Mas”.

  • Catey

    *standing ovation for Ashtoreth* *and Mari, Nancy, Ruvi*

    It’s simple,quit blaming everyone, ANYONE, but yourself.

    I was a child during the years of the “feminist movement”. Never burned a bra in my life. But those sexy women taught me..

    1. how to survive, how to depend first on my own merit and selfworth based on other criteria other than mybody. TG.Just in case our husband/future husband decided to trade us in for newer models.

    2.that speaking up was not “talking back”.

    3.that being angry was OK.

    4.that if I defended myself I would surely not self-destruct.

    5.I had a right to speak up, even get a bit sassy, without being backhanded in the mouth or slammed against the wall.

  • Ashtoreth

    Also Carmine, your choice of an insulting word for the female genitalia (‘pussy/pussies’) to define and demean what you perceive as inferior specimens of men as you did in your article, underlines your fundamental misogeny.

    For a man of academia, it makes me marvel at the paucity of your vocabulary.

  • Ashtoreth

    Carmine, you are obviously wedded to your paradigm. I stand by my words. Your presumptions make me laugh.

    For your information, I am happily married to a very successful man who is younger than I, and who holds me higher than gold. He is buff, he has no wrinkles, he has hair, and he does not need Viagra to function. He is intelligent and cultured. To him I am like a priestess or goddess, a seasoned courtesan and love artist. He treasures me and I him. Threatened much Carmine?

    If anything, a sophisticated well-educated younger man is emboldened not emasculated by an experienced woman as the delicate-balled older men who want to live out their father/daughter fantasies with younger women seem to be, thinking they are sexually viable – but their female contemporaries are not.

    Older men can be very controlling and unpleasant, very conservative in their patriarchal social entitlement. They want to imagine they have all the answers and rule the roost. They hide their fears and insecurities by playing patriarch over women who know and have experienced much less. When I was in my 20’s, I turned down such men. I’d already had a father. One was enough.

    These are the same men who thumb their noses at women who attract and keep the attraction and affections of handsome younger men, women who are fascinating like courtesans, and who know seductions of the mind as well as the body.

    Older women are not prepared to coddle crotchety older men, but they are willing to teach and inspire men their age and younger who appreciate the fullness of the goddess expressed in them.

    Your ideas do not hold water with me. You are trying to build and support a very bitter and judgmental case against the characters of the majority of women ages 40-60, and that’s too bad. It’s also transparent.

    By the sounds of it, you couldn’t make it to coffee with me, Carmine. Fundamentally, you are a misogynist.

    You are like the people who claim to love kittens, but hate cats.

    Ruvy in Jerusalem, you sound like you have become a wise man. I tip my hat to you. May much happiness be the harvest of this wisdom.

    Nancy, wise words. Another saying, “There is nothing new under the sun.” is as old as the hilarious quote you mentioned and from the same area of the world.

    Mari, you are a sensitive soul and I am with you one hundred percent on this. One thing that is so important is that women in the US are able to get the same quality of safe and effective hormone replacement therapy as they get older as women in European countries do, especially in France.

    The French have always valued the allure of the older woman, and they empower her to have what she needs to feel the best she can. This makes a huge difference in how a woman feels physically, mentally, emotionally, sexually.

    I am beginning to think that the reason American women are given such short shrift (Premarin and Prevora oral hormones, no testosterone patch and Prozac/Paxil/Xanax/Valium – the tranquilizer sedator of that generation) – is to support the aggressive agendas of men like Carmine, to indite women as they cross the threshold of 40 and meet their ‘expiration date’ as sexual beings and romantic interests.

    According to Carmine, men have no expiration date, obviously. LOL 😉

    Keep your eye on the advocacy of Dr. Elizabeth Vliet. She just won the women’s voice award for 2007.

    For men who love their women and are not prepared to chuck them for a younger model; who actually appreciate them as women and human beings; who actually have accumulated some maturity and wisdom, not aping it to the uninformed, this message is for you too.

  • Catey

    Britney Spears?!? But she has allready squeezed out two of them babies, and she’s crazy as a loon at the ripe old age of 25.

    Whatever are you gonna doooo?

    (Trya little harder, dig a little deeper, get a lil younger.)

  • Mari

    Of course you are right about young men, mostly we were asses in arrogance, but I would not blame young men for the bitterness of older women that once were young with them.

    You are absolutely right. But many women in the 40-60 range have been trained in victimology and bitterness, and many men in that range have suffered unimaginable cruelty at the hands of these pathologically bitter women. The NOW crowd did not help women, men or children find much in the way of marital bliss.

    LMAO…but yet you have no problem blaming the older women for the “victimization” of the men that were young with them. Carmine, thy name is hypocrite. You can’t have it both ways. Perhaps both parties are equally to blame!!

  • Ruvy,
    Of course you are right about young men, mostly we were asses in arrogance, but I would not blame young men for the bitterness of older women that once were young with them. We all are autonomous to choose how to survive the wounds of our youth. Some choose to love; some presume it impossible and become cynical. I have no sympathy for the cynical who chose misery over optimism. I remember well that tempting voice of that devil.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    I’ve read the back and forth and it appears that the truth is finally slithering out, like a snake from behind a rock. Older guys are looking for younger (and presumably prettier) women who have not been embittered by assholes like what they were themselves fifteen years earlier in their lives.

    My first marriage ended unhappily – for me anyway. One of the consequences of that divorce was that I was on the street for about a year.

    I had a lot of time to think.

    When I finally got my life back together, I had concluded that the failure of my first marriage was my own fault. By the time of the divorce, my ex was embittered – because of me.

    I wanted to meet a girl and was pretty desperate to do so – only to find that the ones I wanted to meet all had advanced degrees, good jobs and I realized that getting to know them too well would only set me up for another divorce with even more bitterness.

    When my mother passed away, I felt I could not wait any longer. Again I looked. I looked for someone younger than me – but not so young that she wold not understand what I was talking about. I wanted someone in my own generation. I looked for someone not embittered by some guy, someone who wanted a family.

    My second wife is three years younger than I. She was not bitter from a relationship, and she wanted a family. And she wanted to get married as badly as I did.

    That was twenty years ago. The last twenty years have been the best in my life. We have two sons who are approaching manhood. But I do know that had I met my wife when I was a young snot of 23 or 25, it would have been a very unhappy marriage.

    Some guys just need to wait until they are truly ready.

    I feel bad over the bitterness I created in my ex. I feel I ruined her life. There is nothing I can do about that – she lives in a foreign country now, and it is probably best that she not know where I live now. But I have the feeling that I may have to get in touch with her one more time before I die.

    My point is that women who are in their forties and fifties are good women, well worth courting and considering as mates. It is my own considered opinion that it is better for a man and woman to be approximately the same age if they are going to live together as man and wife.

  • Mari

    On the other hand, a woman’s optimism, her capacity for joy, her willingness to love, her unabashed good-natured vulnerability, her acceptance of a man’s embarrassing vulnerabilities, and most of all her own authentic confidence in herself as a truly desirable woman, now those things do matter. And those are the very qualities that 40-60 year old women were generally not allowed to develop.

    How could you say this?? How can you sit there and speak about MILLIONS of women that you have never metor probably will never meet. All the qualities that you speak about, I have and so do most of the older women that I happen to personally know. Jaded, bitter, cynical etc…are qualities that even young women can have. That is not something that older women hold a patent on. Just look at the new generation of youngins that are coming out of Hollywood that so many look to as role models. The Lindsay Lohan’s and the Paris Hilton’s of the world that believe they can basically do whatever the hell they want to do and get away with it, regardless of who they hurt. When I look around at the “Youngins” of today I see so many who are living this hedonistic lifestyle. In and out of relationships, disposing of people because after 6 months it got old. Morals and ethics are the thing of the past and this is something that taints both the male and the female. It’s unrealistic to think that only one side of the equation is tainted while the other comes up smelling like roses. For every “bitter” 40-60 woman out in the world, there is a “grouchy” male equal.

    The irony of this is that we are accused of being bitter, judgemental etc…yet many of the posts from the male sector reek of bitterness and judgement.

    If you want to date and marry young women, then by all means do so. Does anyone really have control over that?? But please don’t vilify “older” woman as a justification to do so. There are alot of beautiful, caring and wonderful women in those age groups that don’t deserve that disrespect from their counterparts.

    Alot of people go on and on about how the Feminist movement ruined women and relationships and they long for days of old. Yet the old system didn’t work for many women either, hence the Feminist movement that followed. People who are “happy” do not start revolutions.

  • Nancy

    People of both genders who are ‘gold’, & those who are jerks, come in all ages. Older people have always been convinced the younger generations are going to hell in a handbasket, are lacking, rude, narcissistic, immature, etc., while the youngers have always been convinced the elders have never been where they are, don’t understand their problems, are fogeys, etc. I am reminded of the text of a clay tablet found in the sublevels of an ancient Sumerian city, from a man to his brother, complaining about his son, something to the effect of, ‘…I ask him where he went & he says ‘nowhere’; I ask him who he saw & he says ‘no one’; I ask him what he did & he says ‘nothing’. He spends all day loafing around the marketplace ogling the women & avoid his chores, yet comes home & asks me for money to spend on beer & his worthless friends….’

    That was written about 7,000 years ago-! Some things never change, it seems.

  • re Ashtoreth,
    My argument regarding the unique pervasive anger of those women born in the 50’s and 60’s: Q.E.D. quod erat démōnstrandum. Amazing in its vitriol, self destructive in its consequences. There is no reason for this level of ire other than the autonomous decision of those who embrace these notions to hold on to the debunked ideologies of the past. These are women who also accepted the lie that putting off having children until they were in their 40’s was a good idea. Human biology makes brutally clear it is not. No doubt this also adds to the vitriol of that very angry generation. I do want to add however, pervasive is certainly not universal. There are many many great sexually/emotionally wonderful women in my generation also. But when I became single they were all happily married, and the men to whom they were married knew they had gold.

  • Ashtoreth

    Oh yay to Catey and Mari.

    You hit it on the head! The mass stereotyping of women in the same age group as all these saintly lovable and entitled men who are writing by both their narcissistic selves and the younger women is really sad. Delusional really. It makes me gag.

    You’d think as men got older they all turned into princes where women just turn into ‘Grendle’s Mother’. Girls, one day that unflattering lens will be superimposed over YOU. You will be demeaned and discounted. The lads of today will be singing this same song to the girls your age now, and characterizing you as hunchbacked creatures from the crypt who stole their balls.

    So wise up. You are narcissistic to think you are so special because an old man comes drooling and the honeyed words of his attraction to you is an inditement of the women of his generation, their abject vileness and lack of charm, joy, or sex appeal.

    Maybe those women just need better hormone replacement therapy. Maybe this is why men get their Viagra and testosterone patches and women are offered pregnant mare urine (which kills them) or Paxil and Prozac, which kills their sex drive and energy giving opportunity to justify knocking them down and sweeping them off the stage – while the dudes go for younger women and second families. Nice. Girls, your time will come too. Promise.

    It happens every generation, including to the boomer women when they were in their early 20’s marrying/dating older men of the WWII/Korean War generations who complained about women of their generation.

    For all the talk of abuse and ball-clawed men, if anything, there has been a hell of a lot of woman bashing going on here. And I do mean women. God Bless the French for appreciating that women do not turn into rotten stinking meat when they turn 40.

    And talk about ungrateful (and narcissistic)… To the ladies in your twenties, the reason you can go to work in a law office or even wear pants is because of the women who came before you.

    Don’t buy into the lie that they are like the witches from Macbeth; tyrants, vampires, and of no more sexual relevance than the holes in old trees, where you are the blushing saviors and these old goats, the limping princes and wounded heroes who have ‘found their manhood’. Queen please!

    Personally, I’m with Demi Moore. I’ll take a fine studly piece of man-steak like Ashton Kutcher served up rare, who is intelligent, not andropausal (nervous and agressive) and adores me and you can change your older man’s Depends in a few years.

    Or are you planning you’ll be divorced and receiving alimony from him before that happens? Driving his beamer? When his vision is turning blue from Viagra, you may want to think again. 😉

  • Mari,
    “…or we are seen as someone that is old and no longer sexual by men who never even took the time to get to know us.” Those very words illustrate the problem. The presumption that men are merely interested in the most base aspects of human sexual relationships is the rigid presumption of far too many women born in the 1950’s and 1960’s. A woman’s bodily age is far less relevant to the sexual desire she evokes in men than many women imagine. Sure most men will turn to ogle Brittany Spears, but that ersatz lust is irrelevant to real sexual interest. On the other hand, a woman’s optimism, her capacity for joy, her willingness to love, her unabashed good-natured vulnerability, her acceptance of a man’s embarrassing vulnerabilities, and most of all her own authentic confidence in herself as a truly desirable woman, now those things do matter. And those are the very qualities that 40-60 year old women were generally not allowed to develop. Burning bras was not acceptance of female sexuality but the very opposite, it was a negation of the sexuality of the female body. Thou shalt not perk!

  • Mari

    Judge a man as a generic member of a stereotypical class and you will have precisely that stereotype for a man.

    Wow, Carmine you could change the man to woman and see that this is exactly what you are doing to women in the 40-60 range. All those qualities that you seek in younger women, I as a 40 year old woman have. I too want to love and respect a man in my age group. As a matter of fact most of my friends in this age group are GOOD women that have much to offer a man. However, many of us will never get the chance because we are seen as the enemy or we are seen as someone that is old and no longer sexual by men who never even took the time to get to know us.


  • Catey

    There are criminals behind bars that admit if they were back on the street, they would go back to what put them behind bars to start with. They admit they have no intention of changing.

    Even as they sit with apparent detachment,going over details of their crimes with investigators, some have said they are reliving the
    crime going over bit by bit in their mind, the only means by which they can repeat what to them is the ultimate experience of their life.

    But you can not just admit you have a problem. Oh no, you are going to make a educational argument for it, and ultimately place the blame on the female.Those dirty lil girlz jus’ can’t help themselves.

    Admit that you are an old ponytailed liposukkedass stoned out old fogey who idolizes the “Millenial” young generation whom you teach cuz they are younger and beautiful, and you want it for yourself, typical of your spoiled, I want it now, it’s never my fault,I never want to grow up,rightfully mine , generation who has all but destroyed the planet that the younger guys you speakso Lordly over and about now have to deal with….shagging their girlz while their p*ssy a** is over in Iraq, and they are dealing with a world that you have left for them.


  • Glen

    I work in a public place and I can say in all honesty that I get more friendly behavior from the women who are 20 years younger than me than from women my own age. I find that women my own age or older have too much baggage and are more hardnosed and bitter about past relationships. I find that to be a HUGE turnoff. That’s why I like younger women who are more cheerful and fun to be with even if it’s strictly for friendship. My only problem, even at my age, is that I’ve always been shy around women, even with those who are young enough to be my daughter! Oh well, I’ll get over it.

  • Sandra,
    I agree with you up until your last paragraph. I do not think it is merely a woman or mans age that creates impossible men or women. Opinionated forty plus year olds are what we all become. Rather, I think there is something unique about the generation of women born in the 1950’s and 60’s that makes them particularly untrusting of men their own age. So, younger women who were the daughters of these women tend to discount what they saw as their mothers’ visceral antipathy toward men. Their daughters, now women in their twenties and thirties, wanted to love their fathers and admire the adult men who their mothers regularly maligned and often even hated. I recognize, however, that men born in the 1950’s and 60’s do tend toward the sort of possessiveness they saw in their own fathers’ and grandfathers’ families. It is a trait we must recognize and consciously overcome. The simple reality is that no one actually stays at home as much as the moms of the Great (WWII) Generation did, and the families prior to that generation were even more functionally bound.

  • Two years have wrought immense changes in the commentary — from defense of a maligned younger generation to raw enthusiasm for dating younger women.

    I dated a man 14 years my senior when I was 19. That lasted 7 years. There were good parts and bad. We still talk, email, and see each other every couple of years. He’s married to a much younger woman (his fourth or fifth wife).

    I married a man five years my junior. There are good parts and bad.

    We have two sons. The oldest is in his mid-twenties, college grad, paying his own bills, and navigating the byways of having a career and a personal life, i.e. meeting women.

    It ain’t easy. The women seem insecure. I think back to my older lover. It wasn’t as nerve wracking being around him as with guys my own age. He was patient, tolerant, encouraging and gave me a lot of space (until he grew possessive). I loved him for a good part of those seven years, and I still like him a great deal, love to discuss ideas with him — politics, inventions, kids, writing.

    I think what younger women are responding to with older men is their experience, both sexual and personal, and the confidence they exude. My old guy had been married and had children. He knew that some fights were not worth the effort, but it took my husband and I several years to sort that out.

    But if younger women are responding to experience, then are older men responding to inexperience? If one is looking forward to enlightenment, is the other looking backward to — what? To be Godlike, the solver of problems, the hero at last?

    Absolutely. But it’s not all a fairy story with a happy ending. That fair young woman matures, or she doesn’t. My old guy’s marriages failed because he couldn’t tolerate the change, the growth in his wives. His last bride is young, and she doesn’t speak English.

    So, older men, when you’re contemplating dating that twenty-something, remind yourself that she won’t stay that way forever. She’ll either grow into the opinionated forty-year-old you’re avoiding, or she’ll remain a simpering child hanging on your coattails forever.

  • Cal

    What you say is too generalized? How about the man 40 year old+ who lives with his Mother because she is in ill health and needs him around? This is me. I care for mother (and would do anything to help anyone in need) I am looking for a woman younger than me who is caring: because I would like to share our care with each other and a future child, and provide example of what love and care is to the next generation

  • Rhonda J.

    For all who are wondering how far apart in age my 1 month old son’s father and I are, we are eighteen years apart. This is part of blog #60

  • Rhonda J.

    I agree with a couple of points in this article.I had been against dating older men until I was twenty-one years old. The thought of that kind of relationship made me sick. My first was 35. But it wasn’t a raletionship. It went on from there seeing people 26, 29 and my oldest 50, which was a big mistake, because he was crazy! I quickly ended that. I always said I would never commit to an older man,because I wanted to grow old with somone close to my age. But that changed over time. I find older men to be very intellectual and experienced in life. Some are very much old fashioned and are gentlemen. They open the doors for you and close them behind you. They take care of you and are concerned about what goes on in your life. I met my now 1 month old son’s father at a hotel. He is an engineer. When I met him, he was 42. Now he’s 43. Never have I felt like I wanted to commit until now. He is very caring and loving. One downfall about some older men is that they think they know everything, because their older than you, and they see things differently sometimes than you. So, its hard to agree or settle an arguement sometimes.

  • Glen

    Wow! this site is amazing. I went through every posting, and I sure found a lot of enlightening stuff. I am 45 years old and have never been married. I’ve always had a hangup about the age-difference thing, but after going through these posting I feel a whole lot more confident about finding a mate who is much younger. Thanks Dr. Carmine for such a good article.

  • julie ann sterna


  • David,
    My wife and I just had a new baby exactly two weeks ago. She is 23 years younger than I. That means I now have an 18-year old by my first wife, the baby-boomer, and two in diapers by my optimistic generation Y wife. Believe me, I no longer run a 7-minute mile! But I can be kind to my wife, wash dishes, clean the house, more or less, do the shopping, take the babies for walks, yell at the dog and hold down my mediocre job. But most of all, every day I am absolutely grateful for my wonderful, and unexpected, good fortune, especially since I really thought my life was more or less over just about 6 years ago! What Is is and we are small.

  • sr

    David. My best to you and your wife. MAOZ. And a good day to you also.

  • david

    Very interesting article, and even more interesting comments, especially the one by Dave whose wife died of cancer. My wife is terminally ill, having been diagnosed with a brain-tumour in late 2005. I’ve done everything I can to keep her alive including taking almost a year off to look after her and top try and save her when she was initially diagnosed. Thank God I had insurance that covered the equivalent of 2 years salary that allowed me to do this. My wife’s condition is deteriorating and we have 2 small kids of 11 and 8. My thoughts have now moved to how to get on with my life when she eventually dies. I’m 45 and my wife is 3 years my senior. We always wanted to have more kids but decided not to because of her age. I’d still love to have more kids with the right woman and that pretty much means finding a partner in her late 20s or early 30s. Sometimes I despair that anybody would want a person of my age in my position and I must say I’ve found this article and the responses very theraputic in that they appear to offer some hope that I might one day rebuild a life and extend my family with a new partner.

  • MAOZ

    #53 sr — At my age you ask questions like what is an erection.”

    (Sorry, can’t resist asking: Meaning, you’re still too young to know?)

    Good day to you, sir.

  • sr

    At my age you ask questions like what is an erection.

  • No Dice

    This seems to be more about men who stand on their own two feet.
    I’m a 25 year old man. I don’t fully agree with the opinions of this article, though I don’t whole heartedly disagree either. Much of the same could easily be said about the women of my generation, which is generally why I’m more attracted to the mind of an older woman.
    They tend to be less childish, they have more realistic expectations, and aren’t looking to be lead by the hand as daddy’s little girl.
    Young women like that want to be babied and taken care of.

    There are plenty of mature, responsible, intelligent people my age who are wise beyond their years. If these young women can’t find that type of young man, they’re simply not looking in the right places.

  • chloe

    Wow, this article and comments made me undertand why I have an amazingly strong attraction to this 50 year old guy. I am 21. We have been friends for a while, since I was 19. It has gone further than only friendship, he promptly stopped it though, saying that love could not happen between us. His daughter is 16 and he says that he wouldn’t condone his daughter dating a man 20 years older, therefore he stopped the intimacy between us.

    Problem is, I am still totally in love with him, he is gentle, wise, responsible and always makes me feel like the most beautiful woman on earth….how do I get over him?

    I totally agree with this article, thanks for making me understand.

  • JMB

    All i can say is that you shouldn’t lay your hangups on other people. If you are into older guys, fine, but don’t try and justify that preference by applying fault to men your age. There are plenty of men, and they all have a different mix of attributes. If you don’t like the mamma’s boys, go out and find a man.

    We all have to support and respect each other. The hearts and minds of people are far too complicated to be prejudging any situation.

  • J

    My ex-boyfriend of 4yrs older than me treated me so badly. He was always to busy to be there in most of my time of need. My achievements were never celebrated. He was just not what I needed. I am now dating someone 22yrs older than me. He treats me really well. He is there for me mentally, emotionally, financially and I must say the sex is not bad at all. He actually satisfies every part of my craving body. So whoever dislikes the idea of older men with younger women, that’s them. But from my experience with this older person, I won’t date a younger guy ever again.

  • Brooke

    I am a 26 year old woman. And do believe the article refers to my generation of women. And we do feel this way about guys our age. My last three boyfriends were over the age of 40. Although these relationship didn’t last I’ve learned so much from those two experiences than all of my previous relationships before. We as young women want to know and experience more, we don’t want to know what your mother thinks, what do you think? Grown men have more of their own views at center stage than the boy’s who just left the hen’s nest.

  • Dave

    Dr. Carmine,

    Thank you for your response. I did meet with my pastor last Sunday afternoon to discuss this issue. I’m glad I did. He assured me there was nothing in the Bible what age’s men and women should marry. That confirmed my biblical research as well. My pastor said in his personal opinion that age should not matter for 2 people in love. He stated the biggest problem that could occur is negative opinions from other people with the age difference. My pastor said that as long I felt I could ignore that negativity and basically have the “I don’t care what others think” I should do just fine. I shared with my pastor about your blog opinion and he felt that you were correct and it made sense. My almost 20 year old son said as long as his new mom was not younger than he that would be fine. What a good son.

    Congratulations on your new family and expected newborn. As for me, I’m a very busy retired person not wanting babies now in life. I have reached some of my goals in life sooner than expected and I’m looking forward to travels around the world with the new love of my life. Now if I could just discover her. In time I know I will.

  • Dave,
    I am now 52. My wife is 22 years younger than I am. We have been together for about 5 years. We now have a 2-year old with an infant due in mere weeks. My oldest son, who is 18, is just graduating High School. My oldest always wanted siblings, but his mother was more about pursuing her profession and her professional woman-as-martyr status than having children. She is VERY successful in her career but not in her life. She is a baby boomer woman, not the sort of woman I would ever pursue.

    In a word, my oldest is somewhat embarrassed by me and his new brother(s), but he is very happy to finally have siblings, EVEN though he will be in his thirties when they graduate high school. Most important, however, is my wife actually loves me despite the difference in years. My first wife probably never loved me or any other man, men for many women of that generation are more burdens of the toilet seat lid infraction and voices of the oppressive patriarchy.

    But with the mother of my babies, Wow, what a difference. She has been a gift of the highest order for my oldest son and for me. She runs the house, keeps us in line, is utterly romantic, practical about daily life and a joy to be with. She shows my oldest that when people love each other minor conflict does not mean divorce or generalized misery, and you better call if you will be late coming home. And he does!

    Sure we fight, but about the plain old normal things all couples fight about. In fact our friends are from both groups, her age and mine, mostly her age, and we really do all get along. The age business is not a problem on the day to day level at all. You’d be amazed how fast you entirely forget about it.

    The problems come from thinking about retiring and switching roles, me stay at home care taker her worker, or the real problem comes in when you think about college for today’s babies when your arthritis and fake hips remind you you really are 50+. You also have to keep in mind, IF you are lucky you will die first, so you have to keep your will etc. in order.

    So if love is what you want to give and receive, I am convinced women who avoided the hateful propaganda of the Boomer generation are not only more loving, they are more able and less resentful when it comes to earning an income, since it never occurred to them they wouldn’t. They also don’t feel diminished if they stay home and raise their children for a few years. These women also like older men, and why shouldn’t they? Women now are more successful in college, career and practically every other way than men their age, so when it comes to finding an equal older is better. The hang-ups come mostly from us older guys. We worry more than they do. We tend to over romanticise the age difference. From my experience, they don’t seem to.

  • sr

    Dave Im sorry to hear about your loss. I can relate to it very well. I was just a little younger then you at that time and not a day goes by that my former wife is on my mind. Now I find my self a jerk at 63 and dont give a damn how I look or what people think of me. Sometimes I look at younger ladies but for only a second. My daugher is a beautiful 23 year old and I always think when I look, that could be my daughter. At 48 your still a young man. Wait till you start wearing depends. O ya, getting silver is great. Screw that crap. Good luck to you sir. You still have a long life ahead.

  • Dave

    Just a few comments of my own.

    Kelly said on June 27 this: “Sex eventually gets old in a relationship.” My experience is Kelly is totally wrong. My late wife and I were virgins when we married in 1981. We were married for over 24 years until she succumbed to cancer after a 35 month battle a little over a year ago. Sex for us just kept getting better and better. My only regret was not being more open about my sexual fantasies to her. It was only in those last few years we opened up and discovered new sexual vitality in our lives. Days that I now miss very much.

    Now that I’m 48 and unmarried again, I am discovering in recent weeks women 10 to 12 years younger are attracted to me. This has caught me by total surprise. It is the reason I Goggle searched this issue to learn more and was led here. For the last 7 months I’ve attempted to find relationships within my age bracket. Just like some others have said, most of these women are divorced and come with a lot of baggage. Honestly, I don’t want to deal with that. Also honestly, I don’t know if considering a much younger woman would be to my best interest or to my family and kids. It is new territory for me and as a Christian man I seek His guidance and little knowledge from the Internet.

  • Jada

    Hi i am 22 and my boyfriend is 43, I see nothing wrong with dating an older guy, In fact in my experience its better than being with a guy my own age. Older men have elements of respect that younger guys sumhow have missed out on learning. He treats me with the up most and respect and like a Queen, which is how every woman should be treated…..
    Its up to the individual, but a strong independant woman needs a strong focused Man… Not an immature boy who’s too concerned about following trends than showing his woman real love…… I don’t think ill go back to dating younger guys…..the ratio in regards to positives and negatives is over whelming .

  • Joseph

    I thank you all for the varied opinions. Some comments expressed things I didn’t know how to say.

    I am 55 and find myself leaning toward younger women. I’m finding the ones my age just have too much history and baggage dragging behind them. WHile I understand life can sometimes be unkind, I also understand that one needs to get off their butt, work out the past and try to create a better future. I have already seen the effects of retirement and it isn’t pretty! I still have a lot of mileage left on my tires and want someone with the energy, spark and drive to get out there, build a future and have a lot of fun doing it.

  • john


    Boy did your concerns hit home. I am by the way the John who wrote in earlier and made refernce to the 10, 000 emails back and forth between myself and Christy. My head is back in a good place so I think i can provide some interesting commentary.

    Christy came from a Catholic family though a very liberal one. However, the point I want to address is the one of introduction to family mmembers and friends..

    I think if you and your man are serious about each other then sooner is better than later.
    I met a lot of Christy’s family. I had no problems with them. I liked them, but there was one younger uncle she told me after I met him who said ” you just want to hate him”. What’s the point? Well its difficult for each of you. Think of how that statement made me feel.

    Okay Christy and I broke up and got back together several times. After awhile she refused to tell her family we were together. Everything was a big secret. It be came a total drag and obstacle to the relationship. I proposed to her repeatedly, but it went no where because she lived in fear of her family. My point here is a quote from Mark Cuban: no balls no baby. Your relationship will fizzle out unless you are willing to make the man a priority. Yup before your family or at least on equal footing. Men need that. Its a respect issue. He will be gone soon otherwise.

    As to your friends accepting him it wont be a big issue unless he is hitting on them or doing stupid things trying to act their age. I am a big believer everyone can get along just fine if they stay in character( this means your friends not acting differently as well just because an older guy is there), i.e., be who they really are. Hey people are more interesting that wya I find and so will your friends. After a while people can forget the whole age thing and move on to something more interesting, like, money, politics, sports. music or whatever…..

  • Lori

    Well, everything with my gentleman friend seems to be going well, just a little scary. Thinking about what his family may think (his oldest daughter is only 3-4 years younger than I). Also, I sometimes wonder if he truly is digging me or the experience. Anybody have any advice?

  • Pancho

    Carmine. You speak with wisdom, however should a man suffer unimaginable cruelty at the hands of bitter women and cannot pick up his little wimpey ass and move foward he is not fit to care, love, cherish and provide for that Lady he loves. The NOW crowd is and always will be erealavent to me. Love your women with all your heart and soul. Love her forever. This is called walking the line guys. It comes from a deep faith. Good by. Pancho

  • Pancho,
    You are absolutely right. But many women in the 40-60 range have been trained in victimology and bitterness, and many men in that range have suffered unimaginable cruelty at the hands of these pathologically bitter women. The NOW crowd did not help women, men or children find much in the way of marital bliss. So many men who found themselves single and brutalized tended to presume themselves horrid men for what they must have deserved and never anticipated any woman might ever find them kind, attractive, romantic, or desirable. But post-NOW women are not bitter, and suddenly these older guys with good hearts and minds find themselves being appreciated by much younger women. And God knows we appreciate them back! And please do not assume I am talking merely sex and beauty, all real men know sex and beauty are not nearly as age dependent as pop culture pretends. My sense is men really do want to be good, kind, strong, protective, and appreciated for giving their women all they can. Judge a man honestly on his own strengths and weaknesses and on his own actions and inactions and that man will stand by you and give you his all. Judge a man as a generic member of a stereotypical class and you will have precisely that stereotype for a man.

  • Pancho

    Women are God’s greatest creation. When as a young man around women I was the fool. Now Im old and just an old fool. For you young ignorant pimple faced men/boys learn the definition of respect towards women. It may allow you to live past thirty. I love each and every wrinkle on my wife’s body. She will always be my bride. Have a good day. Pancho

  • Andy

    I am 42 have a 23 year old girlfriend and find that our relationship works well. I cn give her the things that she needs in terms of status and she gives me what I need. We have an equal relationship but we both enjoy the stereotypical gender roles that were missing with our previous partners. It sounds corny but she gave me my manhood back

  • Lori

    Thanks Carmine for the response!

    My friend and I have been on our first date and he was the perfect gentleman. We still talk and he has still been a gentleman. I enjoy his conversation and everything.

    My only worry is my friends and family accepting this type of relationship. I only have one friend I have told about this relationship because she is openminded and encouraged me to give the guy a try.

    My parents are very religious and they have such expectations of me (like marrying someone around my age,christian, my race, etc…) and some of my friends have looked at older men approaching younger women as “gross” and that the man must have problems with getting women his own age. I just don’t know how to handle introducing him to friends because I know he and I may be uncomfortable in it.

    Maybe I should just not worry and let nature take its course. Any suggestions or comments?

  • RedWinePlease

    I’m 39 and very interested in an 50 year old man. I’ve always had younger boyfriends so I’m a little nervous because this is unchattered territory.

    We’ve only kissed and he seems so much more responsible. I’m not sure if this is just a novelty and I’m just getting excited about the idea of dating someone who has it together and is experienced with life.

    I’d like to get to know him better so I think that we’re going to take it slow. At least he’s not pushing me and I greatly admire that about him!

  • Beth

    As I can see it, the older men and younger women combos have been around for a VERY long time.. even longer than the post-divorce generation. Women have a natural desire to be cared for and men have a natural desire to dominate. It’s in our makeup.. it’s natural.. no need to read between the lines. Study history.

  • Denise

    Wow, this was very interesting reading. The article as well as the comments from readers. Although I can relate to a little from just about each reply, John – your statment about these types of relationships requiring an unusual man and woman – resonated the loudest. My husband is 17 years my senior. We have been married for almost 8 years, and dated for 6 years before that. I don’t think that we are any more unusual than any other couple.

    You see, any relationship, regardless of age difference requires work – may be not the same amount, and not in the same area, but work nonetheless. So, what attracted me to him?

    I find it interesting to read a lot of the females responding that they are “so much more mature” and therefore are attracted to older men. Well, psychologically speaking, we usually are more mature than males in our age group – but I think it’s the situation that causes us to rise to the occassion.

    If we were all honest, I think that the first time we noticed attention from an older man, we were surprised and flattered, and found ourselves responding in a way that would encourage the attention. We develop interests in the things that they’re interested in – or at least pretend to. And if this attention or attraction is embraced, it just makes it that more difficult for someone our own age to come along and turn our attention away. We believe that we have transcended the need to “suffer through” a younger man’s growing pains – his need for PlayStation 2 time, to play pickup basketball games with the guys, and other “immature” things.
    Older men have often been attracted to me – for whatever reason. I could say that it was because I was mature and intellectual, but that does nothing to address their motives – so it’s moot. But I know that my actions around older men that I knew were attracted to me, were different that my actions around younger men that I was attracted to. I’ve never, and would never, swear off “younger men”. I’ve only sworn off being mistreated and not mentally stimulated – and those things know no boudaries related to age.

    I love my husband dearly. We have a good life together and a wonderful family. But I am honest enough with myself to know that the thing that bonds a couple together is the growing together and those experiences in life that make us struggle together are experiences that he has already passed through. Challenges at work, sitting together to make financial decisions about 401k plans, realizing that you have outgrown your childhood friends – my husband doesn’t bring discussion, he wants to bring answers simply because “he remembers when…”. And sometimes, I don’t want answers, I just want to talk – but it is in his “mature” nature to fix it for me.

    And where many of my friends thought, and still do think, that I am “lucky” to not have to go through the BS of dealing with a man my age – its the getting through that BS that builds the foundation of faith and trust. Where you can script the story of your life together when you are both young, getting into a relationship with an older man is like being made the costar of a Broadway play that’s been running for 40 years and you haven’t read the script – there are players there that have bonded and know each other very well – his friends, his coworkers, his career, his family (including kids-need a new blog for this!), and yes – his mom.

    The unusual part is having a partner that will call “cut” for as long as you need it. And that’s where I got lucky.

    P.S. Carmine, for what it’s worth, he had a wonderful dad and treats his mom with respect

    This was my VERY FIRST blogging experience. Thanks for the opportunity!

  • Carmine

    Hi Lori,
    My sense is as soon as any man, despite his age, “finds it” he also hopes to “have it.” So cads come in all ages. But if your older gentleman is in fact a gentleman, then he likes you not simply because you are slightly firmer than women his age and therefore provide him a bit of beautiful woman status, but he likes you primarily because he likely finds you vastly more optimistic than those women who came of age during the dark years of seventies-style paleo feminism. Women in their twenties today believe they can accomplish what they want without blaming their difficulties on some nebulous “patriarchy.” In a nutshell he likes you more than women in his generation because single women in their forties actually do not have much respect for men. Secondarily, any man with even half a brain knows no woman is “easy to control” and if he wanted a woman simply to control her, or if a woman wanted a man simply to control him for that matter, he or she would be better off with a dog and a shelf of pornography. I think that whole “control” angle is by and large just absurd psycho-mythology.

  • Lori

    I am kinda interested in a man that is older than me. He is 44 while I am 26. He approached me, but has been more of a gentleman than any other man that has approached me. In the beginning, he only conversated about life issues and the such, never about dating. We have talked about dating and our past relationships. I have heard different sayings that older men try to date younger women because they are trying to see if they still “have it”. Some say that they like younger women because they are not as knowledgeable about life as older women and are easier to control. what do you think?

  • Mark

    I’m just about 50. I divorced a liberated first wife(same age) and managed to salvage what was left of my balls.I married a much younger 2nd wife who was assertive and very feminine from another country whoes cultural agenda was not focused on liberation and man bashing. Choices in my age group are limited to divorced women who are independantly dependant on alimony for example and insist at their age, to be the boss. Having raised kids and pets, battled with the ex and menopause they are just plain bossy and sometimes bitter. They whine about dad to the kids indirectly or out loud. Being like alot of children, I was raised in a divorced household and have experience, which probably enabled the first partnership to take place. Femininity and manhood in the USA, are nearly neutral. I hope the liberated women got what they wanted.
    It must be hugely difficult for a young man to get it together today. I don’t feel all puffed up knowing I have thier age group as a date choice, as they head over to moms to listen to her bemoan men. Women don’t seem to realize that they have men outnumbered 7-1. Some of them could put away the fire hoses and macho “i can do what you can do” crap, act feminine and see what happens.
    the future is not likely to get any better, when you see adults dragging their children into every
    adult level thing they can. Rather than let them be kids. Would that be the moms doing all this and the dads letting them? damn straight. The poor bastards will pay when they buck it and divorce her as the cycle continues. Good luck

  • John

    I guess what I say here is just anecdotal in that I worked with a woman 20 years younger than me. I had never been with anyone that much younger. Its jsut one day I realized before anything physical had ever occured that I had fallen in love with her. She was 25 and I was 45. I have always stayed in top shape. I am moderately successful, but why she had fallen in love with me I don’t know. We flirted and she encouraged. It was hard to resist.

    The chemistry was amazing, but from the time we got together until now we broke up and got back together many times. The other day I calculated that we had spent 21 months apart over the last 3 and a half years. Now we are not together. It breaks my heart, but I have to acknowledge that it must be an unusal man and woman who can successfully span that kind of age difference.

    In many ways she may not be typical for her age. Her dad had died at 9 and her mother never remarried and didn’t really have boyfriends. I think she was something not mentioned here, yet, a moma’s girl. She would talk to her mother all day long sometimes. She would call her on her cell when she got up to take her first piss of the day. Also, she is on glucophage for PCOS, but I don’t know whether that really figures into this and she has anger management issues.

    I miss this young lady, but she did not know how to give me what I wanted in terms of an adult realtionship.

    We have probably sent 10,000 emails abck and forth over the years. Now she says it didn’t work please don’t write I need to get over you. I do my best. I am fairly certain she lloves me but I wonder does she really want me to leave her alone.
    Its hard on both of us I am sure.

    I guess all I am saying is everyone go into these types of relatinships with your eyes wide open. I sure didn’t. I would probably do it again since as I said the chemistry was incredible. I alway remeber our first kiss and how Iliterally felt my whole world shift. I don’t recall ever feeling that before.

    I guess guys if you are looking for a younger women. Make sure she is going to be able to put you first. Just like women want to be put before your mothers , a young woman needs tounderstand that an older guy who has been self sufficeint for years doesn’t want to playy second fiddle to your parents. Sorry , but i told you this was based upon my experience. Maybe there is nothing really to be learned here.

    Sorry if I am rambling but I needed the outlet folks.

  • Denise

    Im not so sure I agree with the article. I mean, I think the younger generation of guys tend to be less goal oriented and need to look up the word “chivalry”, but I can’t say as single parent housholds are to balme. Maybe its simply more of the everchanging ways of society. Its more acceptable to live at home until one is 25, while years ago you were encouraged to get out the day after your 18th. Well, the day of if you packed early… Im 18 dating a 36 year old man. We’ve been talking ever since I was 17, and even after I’ve now become of “legal age” he’s still only moving at my pace. I think older men are just as sexually driven as any younger male, but its that chivalry and maturity that keep the older generation from being overly crazed by it. For me, the older guy just has better sense about him. Girls mature faster than men, maybe not so fast as to put me on the level of someone twice my age, but to enough of an extent where I connect far better with someone twice my age, than someone of my age.

  • Nakia

    I’m 22 and my partner is 47. We’ve been dating for a year and a half now. I chose him over the younger guys, because for 1.He shows me the uttermost respect. 2. He’s independent and a true man of God. 3. I learn alot from him. He tells me much that I don’t know and I show him some things that he hasn’t known. Unlike younger guys who want to compare you to other females and see how he can play many of them in different ways, yet have not much knowledge, if any, to offer because their minds are set on “Tha Game” as they say. So I am totally comfortable about being in a relationship with this older guy, whether it’s in public or not. People are going to judge you no matter what choice you make, but God has the last say so in everything. And by the way, it’s not stated anywhere in the bible that relationships should have an age limit. I mean having common sense we know our boundaries and the illegal info. So who cares about another person’s opinion, it’s your life live it to your pleasures!

  • if my boyfriend is 16 and i am 18 and if we get married wouldn’t i go to jail for that?

  • zingzing

    jay-that’s silly. over-generalization at its best. “the older generation” yadda yadda yadda. there are bastards in my father’s generation and there are bastards in his father’s generation and there are bastards in my generation who are raising little bastards of their own. no offense meant, but your answer is a total crock of shit.

    come on now… this article is pretty silly too. hrm. women like men who can take care of themselves… no shit. can the average 18-year-old take care of himself? nah. he doesn’t even have a college degree. what about a 25-year-old? sometimes. by the time they are thirty, most men can hack it in the real world. i don’t know how much it really has to do with single-parent homes. lots of women come from single-parent families as well, yet there is nothing said about that? how many of them are looking for daddy? are they mooches? i wouldn’t really have the balls to say.

    i think it has less to do with people, men and women, wanting a more mature life. women just tend to want it earlier. meh.

  • Kim

    I am 33 and engaged to be married to a 49 year old man. I would never ever again consider dating, or worse yet marrying a man in his 30’s ever again, for the very reasons mentioned in this article. My ex husband is one of those fatherless men, unfortunately, and he never learned how to be a man, only to sponge off of me and be a selfish, whiny pussy who threw temper tantrums and humiliated me in public when he didn’t get his way. I know there are some exceptions out there. In general, however, it is my contention that “men” (termed as such by virtue of their age only) of my generation just need to park their sorry asses in front of a computer showing nothing but broadband porn 24-7 and simply masturbate themselves out of existence.

  • Jay

    not being asociated with you, I would like to interject a personal point of view…That is, todays society has taught the younger generation to be self centered, no sense of consideration for the other person, satisfy ME. The older generation was brought up with different set of values towards other persons, main one is courtesy and respect. This means that in an interactive situation the younger generation tends to be pretty self satisfying while the older men are doing theur BEST to satisfy the women first themselves second.

  • I agree with the analogy of the divorced/fatherless growing up for guys. I have always said that since I was 17. I am 28 now, always dated older guys. I personally have always been mentally more mature than any of my friends (and still am). The biggest reason I date older men is: they have more respect for me (had mom AND dad around), they aren’t into partying, they know themselves better, they are more secure financially, etc.. ok, laugh at this all you want, but I am far better off connecting with a guy mentally than physically. Looks only go so far. Older guys understand this too. Anyhow, I would much rather have a deep/intriging conversation and drink coffee with him, rather than a movie out and sex. Sex eventually gets old in a relationship. The more mature the man, the better off he is mentally connecting with me.

    Now at what level of age difference is everyone talking about? On average for me it’s 8-10 years. However, I’ve had plenty of interested men in their mid 40’s – 50. I feel I connect with some of them well, however, I’m old enough now to understand LATER down the line it would cause some stress and problems. 10 yrs isn’t too bad. However, you can think though too, that having the best 20 years of your life can be better than never have any best years of your life. Yes, i’m still trying to convince myself the age gap! 😉

  • I am seventy-one, and have never had any problem attracting beautiful young females. I really do not understand what they see in me except they all say I am someone they can talk to, and know I am interested in their life. I am six feet tall and weigh 168 Lbs. I ride bicycles, motorcycles, horses and fly airplanes. I am a portrait artist who is financially comfortable
    My latest friend is only 23 and very beautiful, we do love one another and she wants a relationship, while I only want to be friends. We have been friends for more than a year , and I told her early on that if she expected me to bed her she can forget it, I do not take advantage of women no matter what age they are. I am content with my life, and the only maintenance I require from my many female friends is their friendship. Yes it would be very nice to have sex with my young friend, but I could not deal with the guilt of seducing a girl younger than some of my grandchildren. Young females are nice to look at and converse with, but with 48 years age difference, she should search for someone closer to her age, don’t you agree James?

  • Lasha516

    Thank you for this clearly presented article; this article helped me to understand why I am interested in older men. I am a college student. I am a highly intellectual being and I thought and still believe that this is the reason why I have this interest. James, would you be able understand? and explain/elaborate further to give me your own opinion?

  • Ekizabeth

    The reason younger women date older men has to do with the way they are treated. An older man takes the time to make there women feel appreciated in all areas sexual and emotional and to me that is just sexy

  • Carmine

    Hi Mom,
    Yes this is one of the problems created by a world where fatherless girls become women by going with older men while fatherless boys remain mother dependent children, and ultimately only end up with much younger women once they themselves become too old for those very women. Your teenaged daughter is likely just dating a teenager in a 30-year old body. Things may not be as bad as you think.

  • mom

    I’m a mother of an 18 year old daughter who just started university. She has secretly been dating a 30 yr old divorcee w/ 2 kids. He was her “friend” since she was 15 or 16.
    I would do anything to get her to see that she’ll be the loser in this situation. His daughter is 6 yrs younger than her. She has a brother the same age that she can hardly stand and she thinks that this will all work out.

    My heart aches for her. We can’t seem to get through to her. She thinks that an older guy isn’t as “horny” as an older guy Yet, friends told us that he publicly said that he will fuck her when she turns 18. Too bad they didn’t tell us this when they heard it.

    He denied it to her. Older guys – more slick, know all the moves – I find what he did dispicable – making his moves on her when she was so young and vunerable. He took advantage of her innocence. He had her babysit his kids one summer – it never sat right w/me – but she said it’s good money, – FOUND OUT later that he was looking for someone who was good with his kids. Most 16 yr olds are good as babysitters.

    As a mother of a daughter who is smitten by an older man, who can’t seem to see that his selfish ways will only benefit him, I say shame on older men esp. with children who go for young girls.
    Who picks up the pieces later?


  • Stef

    Yes i agree women are looking at younger guys 2 date the reason i think is they are more secure in life they hav already bin threw there stagers such as adolesence.and they are more mature and they hav learnt wot not wot to do in relationships or are learning?
    And at the end of the day who is to say there 2 young or 2 old 4 u its a personal decision and should b left a that!

  • Mitch

    Yep, I agree with Mina. Age is irrelavent. If you love someone that’s all that matters. I reckon if I had a younger partner my concern would be our common interest. I certainly do not do the bar scene at 42 and have no interest to. Would she still be into going to night clubs? Not sure don’t really care…just writing this cuz I’m bored right now.

  • Mina

    I’m not sure that I agree with anything I’ve read. I’m 35. I’ve been through alot – more than most – fatherless (mother was 18) – adopted father (real father’s best friend)- raised in a happy friendly environment. I love my dead mother – I even think that I love my father…yeah…right… Sexually abused by step/adopted father’s sibblings, grew up with two great half brothers. Surviveded a great phase… mother divorced step-dad. step dad wanted nothing to do with me. Raised brothers while mother went back to work. raised brothers while mother died of cancer, reconciled with step father in order to preserve relationship with brothers. Thrown out on ass by step father at 18. fought for partial custody. WON. Put myself throgh school. Graduatd from college with a 3.9 . Am a successful individual – Professionally.

    Personally – don’t know where I stand… But I know that age doesn’t matter. We live in an era where people focus on the “who’s” and the “why’s” and the gossip. Frankly, who gives a shit? I live with a younger guy, who sleeps while I type this. ALl of our great grandparents married folks of the same age desparity you are agonizing over…I don’t really belive that age matters when it comes to a relationship between two individuals… Jesus – a young guy sleeping verses an old guy who would want to be with me? I would not be wasting my time on this… Forget the financials. GET A CLUE.

  • fem

    Hmm…just wondering why the choice of words. Wouldn’t a less offense term, one not directed at defaming the female genitalia, have been more appropriate for this discussion?

  • RJ writes: “Ron – You are a man for admitting that. We all make mistakes; after all, we are all human. But not everyone can admit to those mistakes. You have. Bravo.”

    Reply: That “gift” (or shall we call it a curse?) comes with a price, my friend. I appreciate the acknowledgement. I wish I had been smarter a long time before. But, those who choose to look at their lives in retrospect, never have anything to look forward to. I do look forward to better days, hopefully. I forfeited the “blame game” – a game your mind can never win – a long time ago.

    Cheers, my friend,


  • RJ

    Ron – You are a man for admitting that. We all make mistakes; after all, we are all human. But not everyone can admit to those mistakes. You have. Bravo.

  • Lisa writes: “There seem to be a whole lot of posts around here lately blaming women for the consequences of divorce – my guess is that in any divorce, there’s enough blame to go around.

    Reply: Amen. Having been through one (after 24 years of marraige), my office staff (all women) seem to marvel at the willingness and sense of duty I have about paying a rather hefty monthly alimony check. My thinking is, just as you say, that I am as much or more to blame for the failure of my marraige as my wife. As a result, she deserves to be compensated and provided for, at least financially, as my vows of 1973 dictate.

    I have no intentions of ever marrying again as, after the conclusion of that sad experience has taught me, I am not “the marrying kind.” But I have no problem with making sure a woman who put up with me for almost a quarter of a century continues to live “in the style to which she is accustomed.” I gave her the house, everything in it and have every intention of compensating her for the rest of my life.

    Divorce has no winners. But we must do the best we can with the life after it ends. As for the issue of children, I failed almost as badly with them as I did with my wife, but I will live with that, as well. So, I have nothing to offer to the current conversation.



  • Steve, I was reacting to the sense I had from reading James’s post that it’s essentially the fault of mothers, who divorce fathers and then keep the kids away from them, a point that I disagree with. While broken homes certainly contribute to a lot of problems, I think the extended adolescence that a lot of young people seem to experience these days is probably the result of any number of things. And as bhw pointed out earlier, the younger woman-older man thing has been going on forever – a lot of women have always preferred partners who are already established in their careers and earning money.

  • I have three sisters, ages 43, 36 and 30. Not exactly college age anymore, but they echo what your students are saying.

    Instead of ‘pussies’ though, they call them ‘mama’s boys’, and there are too many of them apparently. (Men who are looking for a mother instead of a wife)

    I think this is just one indirect result of a generation or two growing up, having learned how to abdicate responsibility.

    Maybe I’m missing something that those here who disagree with you are seeing, because I usually agree with them on most everything, but I do see what you are talking about, even if I’m exposed to a different age group.

  • carmine

    Oh my no, Please do not take it that way bhw!!!!

    I really think today’s youth are great. Way more insightful than my stoned out crowd. The real joy of teaching undergrads is you get to talk to young people all the time and they constantly show you how wrong your presumptions are. I am genuinely sorry if you, or anyone, gets the idea that I (God forbid!) “disdain” the Millennial’s generation. You guys are really doing great things, no joke. This whole blog thing is YOU. I am only a fogey interloper, and I am very proud of the kids these days that kick our old botoxed, skinny poney-tailed, liposucked asses.

  • where are all these younger women??? I want one!

  • bhw

    Also, this is not an exaggeration, young women are dating older men and, what’s even more telling is older women tend to be dating young guys!

    So, following your logic from the post, these older women are into pussies who have tattoos?

  • carmine

    I’m not blaming just the mothers; right now I am blaming their sons. After all once a guy is over 13 he can pick up the phone and call his dad if his dad isn’t in jail. Also, this is not an exaggeration, young women are dating older men and, what’s even more telling is older women tend to be dating young guys! Ask your young woman friends. It is all pretty amazing to me.

  • bhw

    James, you think this May-December romance thing is something new? It’s been around for centuries, just like the “May-December” name for it.

    You seem to have a lot of disdain for the group of young people you teach. That’s kind of sad.

  • This sure seems like an over-simplification to me, James. First of all, I know an awful lot of kids who come from divorced families who continued to have a real relationship with their fathers – in fact, they are the rule rather than the exception. There seem to be a whole lot of posts around here lately blaming women for the consequences of divorce – my guess is that in any divorce, there’s enough blame to go around. If a man loses touch with his own children, I’d say that’s his own fault, or is the new game in town for men to play the victim card when it comes to broken marriages?