Today on Blogcritics
Home » Why the Hell Are We Allied with Israel?

Why the Hell Are We Allied with Israel?

Please Share...Print this pageTweet about this on Twitter0Share on Facebook0Share on Google+1Pin on Pinterest0Share on TumblrShare on StumbleUpon0Share on Reddit0Email this to someone

Abu Gleg was an elderly Bedouin, father of 30. Eight years ago he donated land for an American international school to build its facilities. Within the walls of that facility, an American curriculum and the noble goals of tolerance and peace were taught to the students. Over the weekend, the benevolent Bedouin and the institution he gave birth to were killed and demolished by Israeli bombers.

As an international American teacher this story hit home. The fact that a school would be demolished and its night watchman killed in a combat action is hard to believe. I am not naïve enough to believe that it couldn’t happen. But I didn’t expect it to happen as a result of the actions of a major ally of the United States.

The latest violence in the Middle East has gotten me to question once again, why Israel is a major ally of the United States? The one lesson I learned from my college foreign policy classes was that countries act to assure their survival, period. Nation-states are not people. They do not have altruism. They do not sacrifice the wellbeing of their people for high principles or ideals. As a matter of fact, this stance would ultimately put at least a portion of a country’s population at risk. Pacifist leaning countries go to war all the time to ensure their survival. The United States did not sign the Kyoto Agreement on the environment because it would have harmed at least a portion of our economy and therefore our citizenry to do so.

So what is it that Israel gives us that makes it indispensable to our national interest? Does it have a natural resource that we need for economic or military reasons? No, as a matter of fact the direct opposite is true — those countries that are Israel’s sworn enemies have oil. Being friends with Israel has placed the lifeblood of our economy at risk many times throughout the years, yet we continue to support Israel with aid, both military and economic, votes in the United Nations, and rhetorically through our leaders.

Does Israel’s location provide us with security of a trade route or a convenient military outpost? Again the answer is no. In the Middle East it is other states, some not friendly with Israel, that control or are near strategic trade routes. Egypt owns the Suez Canal. Iran and the United Arab Emirates surround the Straits of Hormuz. As far as military outposts are concerned, the United States has fought two gulf wars in the last twenty years and has never used Israeli soil to encamp or to launch an attack. Bases in Turkey, Qatar, and Saudi Arabia were used with great success.

Lastly, one could ask, does Israel produce some good or service that Americans need to warrant the cozy relationship between them and us? I can’t think of any. Certainly our countries trade with each other, but that might continue even if we were not necessarily allies. Didn’t the United States and the former Soviet Union trade with each other?

As far as I can understand from our leaders, the reason the United States and Israel are such close allies is because Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East. This view is a throwback to Woodrow Wilson’s idea that the United States is ultimately responsible for “making the world safe for democracy”. Under this mindset, the United States must support Israel unconditionally to ensure its survival and help spread the ideals of representative government throughout the Middle East. This of course runs counter to what I learned in college about the pragmatic actions of nation-states. Why would the United States support a country on high principle and at the same time jeopardize its own well-being?

The answer to the above question is, it wouldn’t. The real reason our government has close ties with Israel is because our shameless politicians love to be reelected. There are two groups in America that support Israel with all their might, American Jews and Evangelical Christians. These two groups are vociferous, politically well organized, capable of raising large amounts of money and they vote all the time. Why else would the mayor of New York, Michael Bloomberg, be in Israel right now to show his support for its actions? Doesn’t he have enough to worry about at home with the financial crisis on Wall Street?

Now, this is not a criticism of Israel. As a sovereign nation it has a right to defend itself. This is a criticism of our politicians for placing their interests ahead of our country’s interests. We support Israel to our detriment. Why have so many Middle Easterners trained to be terrorists to strike American targets? Why is the supply of oil and its price so unstable? Why are some Arabs threatening revenge against both Israel and the United States over the current violence in Gaza. The answer to all of these questions is because we support Israel. By not supporting Israel the United States would be safer and oil would probably flow more freely. We would be promoting our national interests and perhaps no more American international schools would get blown up as well.

Powered by

About Kenn Jacobine

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    Kenn, I think you’re missing at least two aspects of the larger picture of the larger picture of why we’re allied with Israel.

    First, by being their ally and a source of financial assistance to them, we do have at least some claim and influence on them. I think it’s quite possible that Israel’s behavior would be WORSE if we were not their ally. Now, it’s arguable that Israel’s problems might be solved if they were less restrained in their reaction to terrorism, so maybe our efforts to hold them back are counterproductive. But being their ally does give us some influence.

    Second, Israel does perform some indespensible services for us, especially by occasionally acting as a convenient surrogate and even a scapegoat for dirty work in the region. When the Syrians were storing purloined Iraqi WMD materials in the Syrian desert, Israel acted on our behalf to take them out with an airstrike. Similarly, when Iran finally makes some substantive progress on nuclear weapons production we’ll likely let Israel take care of the problem, because they can get away with it whenm it would be impolitic for us to do so.

    Dave

  • kaddie

    First of all, Israel is not a democracy. It is an apartheid state worse and more murderous than South Africa.

    Here are some examples of Israeli “democracy”

    Since Israel’s inception, the Jewish state has implemented a segregated school system similar to school systems in the Jim Crow South. Under Israeli Law, non-Jewish children are educated in separate schools from Jewish children.

    Even though non-Jewish citizens in Israel must pay the same taxes as Jews, the
    Israeli government spends more money on the Jewish children than the non-Jewish children
    .

    This results in over-crowded non-Jewish schools many of which have no counselors, recreational, facilities, or even libraries.

    Even the
    US State Department had the following to say about Israel’s policies
    : “… the Government does not provide Israeli Arabs, who constitute approximately 20 percent of the population, with the same quality of education, housing, employment, and social services as Jews. In addition, government spending is proportionally far lower in predominantly Arab areas than in Jewish areas… Although such policies are based on a variety of factors, they reflect de facto discrimination against the country’s non-Jewish citizens.”

    Women are forced to sit separately from men on several public buses in Jerusalem.

    This is not a Moslem bus or an Arab bus, but a state-run Jewish bus that forces women to sit “in the back of the bus” like the Taliban used to do with their women, and like blacks in the pre-60s South.

    One UK rider describes her experience in April 2007. “Husbands left heavily pregnant wives or spouses struggling with prams and pushchairs to fend for themselves as they and all other male passengers got on at the front of the bus. Women moved towards the rear door to get on at the back”

    This is not an isolated incident. These types of buses operate on 30 public bus routes across Israel.

    When Women attempt to oppose this rule and sit where they want, they are physically and brutally attacked.

    Miriam Shear, an American-Israeli woman, attempted to sit in the front of the bus told police that she was “…slapped, kicked, punched and pushed by a group of men who demanded that she sit in the back of the bus with the other women.”

  • kaddie

    Israel is not defending itself an innocent victim would.

    Rather, it uses BULLYISM to incite violence in others.

    They bully and provoke, then have the nerve to be surprised when people fight back. Here they torture with guns.

    Here they try to starve by plowing up fields and orchards about to be harvested.

    And these are all incidents in the West Bank which is controlled by a government that Israel claims that it finds “acceptable”.

    If this is how they treat what they find “acceptable”, then you can surely see how they treated Palestinians in Gaza.

    If Israel has a right to murder and destroy because of rockets fired into Israel, then how is it that Gazans don’t have a right to respond to illegal destruction of property, torture of humans, starvation, and murder by firing the rockets in the first place?

    Israel is the worst of what the 20th century had to offer. It defines humanity as only themselves, and everyone else as pawns or prey.

  • kaddie

    In order to make sure that Israel’s illegal actions are not broadcast in the U.S., it has started channeling Goebbels and created an Office of Propaganda charged with controlling the message about Israel’s acts in the Western Press.

    This is office is responsible for making sure that damaging images like the ones of Israeli children signing bombs to be dropped on other children don’t make it out during this conflict as it did during the Lebanon’s war.

    They have further strengthened that position by violating international law and preventing journalists from entering Gaza so that a different POV can be present.

    As a result, reports from foreigners within Gaza to report the actual conditions and actions of Israeli soldiers are scant.

    Reports like this one: “One missile killed three Palestinian children, aged between eight and 12, as they played on a street near the town of Khan Yunis in the south of the strip. “These injuries are not survivable injuries,” Madth Gilbert, a Norwegian doctor at Gaza’s Shifa hospital, said. “This is a murder. This is a child,” he said.”

    BTW, the missiles that Israel refused to permit international monitors like the UN (Hamas and Fatah have both asked for the UN to police and monitor the borders, Israel has refused on all occassions – funny though how we don’t treat them like the Sudan when it refused) have killed less Israelis in the 2 year period since Hamas took over, than Israel drunk drivers have in the last 6 months.

    If the question is really about Israeli life being taken, then the fact remains that more Israelis are killed by Israelis than Arabs every year.

    At the end of the day, Israel has a real problem with racism and these quotes best sum it up.

    The nation of Israel is pure and the Arabs are a nation of donkeys. They are an evil disaster, an evil devil, and a nasty affliction. The Arabs are donkeys and beasts. They want to take our girls. They are endowed with true filthiness. There is pure and there is impure and they are impure.”
    — Rabbi David Batzri, head of the Magen David Yeshiva in Jerusalem [Haaretz, March 21, 2006]
    And:
    “One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail.”
    — Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1]

    Each of these men is funded by U.S. dollars.

    The majority of the world is against Israeli because they have more access to the viewpoint from both sides than Americans.

    The only question facing the U.S. about this conflict is whether we will wake up and stop funding genocide in the name Israeli democracy?

    Or will we continue to let ourselves be governed by people that want to support for Israel because it plays into their own bloodthirsty needs to bring about Armageddon and the 2nd coming of Christ?

  • voirdire

    This is about a war that has been declared by an enemy that has no nation-state, but extols an ideology of religio-racist supremacism. Pretend it’s 1938 and instead of a national socialist party localized in one particular European country, imagine a block of nazi countries controlling the majority of oil on the planet with their citizens insinuated into every government of Europe and the United States, every school,every court, armed with nuclear weapons and a promise to their God to incinerate the remainder of the Jews who survived the last war.
    Now pretend Israel is Great Britain in 1939 and I’m neither a Jew nor an Evangelical Christian.

  • jamminsue

    Yes, the Arabs are angry because of Israel. However, I believe they would be attacking us with or without Israel in the mix. I am not saying the Islamic religion is bad. It is not. Only the extremists are, just as our own Christian extremists are dangerous.

    Voidire has it right.

  • Ed

    “Over the weekend, the benevolent Bedouin and the institution he gave birth to were killed and demolished by Israeli bombers.”

    I wonder how you know it was Israeli bombers? Hamas has announced that it has eliminated hundreds of Israeli collaborators. It would be hard to imagine that Abu Gleg would not have been a target of Hamas. At the same time, it is hard to see why the Israelis would have targeted the school if it was as you describe it. I don’t know who did it, and I’m not sure how to find out. Palestinians in a position to identify Hamas as the perpetrator would themselves suffer reprisals. I think we need to withhold judgment now.

  • Alkl

    It’s time to take sides. Lets fight this out. Go Israel.

  • reality_bites

    I think you guys forget about the short term history of this latest confrontation.

    First Israel left all Gaza in 2005 and left a lot of the former Israeli settlements infrastructure to the Palestinians who destroyed them. Everybody thought all the Gazans will do is start trying to improve the peoples life now that they have driven the Zionist occupier out of Gaza. Instead, Hamas took by force the reign of Gaza from the Fatah; killed Fatah associated people in tens to hundreds and build the only industry that flourished: Gaza’s underground tunnels and Islamo-fascist brainwashing and dictatorship.

    As an aside, all that think Israel is a Apartheid country have never visited Israel or talked to an Israeli Arab. The educational resources are divided unequally between communities as they are in Britain, France or US. In US, as an example, school districts in a wealthy socio-economic areas are getting higher budgets than in East LA or East Palo Alto. Does that mean that US is an Apartheid regime because the majority in East LA is latino or black? No. So cut the crap of Israel = Apertheid and look not further than in your backyard.

  • Ajai burns

    For a professor the author sure does refer to college political science theory over real world experience and understanding. Israel had been an impressive ally to the US during the Cold war and for many important things such as technology and scientific research. They currently provide intelligence and expertise about the arab world having the experience, knowhow and language skills to track what America foes in the region are doing. Israel has never defaulted on a loan and has proved its trust through decades of experience. There is No other country in the region whose government, people, military or Values the US can come anywhere need to TRUSTING.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    That the Palestinians and Israelis have never been able to come to any kind of lasting peace says a lot about both sides. For many of them, it is all or nothing. No compromise. No give and take.

    Much of the hatred aimed at the U.S. by Arab & Muslim nations stems from our support of Israel to the detriment of the Palestinians. Of course, the indignation of much of the Arab world is rather disingenuine in that they have all looked upon the Palestinians as an embarrassment, as little more than poor step children. However, I do believe that we would not be the focus of so much emnity from the Arab/Muslim world if we had aligned ourselves with their interests rather than those of Israel.

    Much of our support of Israel comes out of our collective guilt. Strictly from a pragmatic standpoint, there is little justification for our dauntless support of Israel. It is true that they have little to offer the U.S.

    I am not suggesting that we should abandon Israel, but a more even handed approach would likely pay dividends to the U.S. down the road in the form of less opposition to us by the Arab/Muslim world.

    B

    Each side has its own patented set of claims against the other.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    I find myself in very substantial disagreement with the major premise of the article, that countries — including the United States — should have no interests beyond their immediate self interests.

    Nation-states are not people. They do not have altruism. They do not sacrifice the wellbeing of their people for high principles or ideals.

    However, there still persists a common morality in the United States. It is unfortunately diminishing, but it has not yet completely vanished.

    Looked at solely through the lens of immediate self interest, I doubt that the U.S. should have participated in either World War I or World War II. She did, and the results would have been quite unfortunate had she not. Germany in 1914 (or for that matter in 1917) posed little real threat to the U.S. Nor did Hitler’s Germany or Japan in 1939; they would have been very happy had the U.S. not intervened. Perhaps they might have been willing to share their spoils of victory in return for abandoning our allies. Nor should the Marshall Plan have been instituted. Nor should relief supplies and other assistance have been sent to places outside the U.S. in time of natural and man-made disaster. The U.S. did and continues to do these things, and I think doing them remains entirely salutary.

    The notion that all forms of morality are equal, and that the U.S. should not take sides in any conflict unless her immediate self interest is imperiled, strikes me as pernicious. Like her or not, Israel is the closest thing to a free democracy in her part of the world. Like the U.S., she is imperfect and occasionally screws up; sometime, royally. However, I much prefer having Israel as an ally than, for example Iran or, for that matter, Saudi Arabia. The fact that Iran has oil and Israel does not fails to alter my view. I also find disheartening the use by Hamas of non-combatants as shields for their combatants. Intentionally placing weapons of war in densely packed civilian areas, and then whining when civilians are killed through its own efforts to place them at risk, I find despicable. It seems rather worse than the young man who killed his parents and then pleaded for mercy on the ground that he was an orphan.

    Here is an article by Alan Dershowitz which, I think, fairly sets out the parameters of the conflict between Israel and Hamas.

    Even were all of the above to be rejected as sentimental nonsense, there are reasons why supporting Israel is in the best immediate self interests of the U.S. Here is an opinion piece from the LA Times contending that Hamas is a proxy for Iran and that Israel’s total defeat of Hamas is, for that reason alone, a good thing; and not only for Israel. According to the article,

    Until now, the Iranian revolution has appeared unstoppable. The Iran-Iraq war of the 1980s ended with Iranian troops occupying Iraqi territory. Iranian influence then spread to Saudi Arabia’s heavily Shiite and oil-rich Eastern province, and to Lebanon through Hezbollah. Since the fall of their long-standing enemy, Saddam Hussein, Iranians have deeply infiltrated Iraq. Syria has been drawn into Iran’s sphere, and even the Sunni sheikdoms of the gulf now defer to Iran, dispatching foreign ministers to Tehran and defying international sanctions against it. Iran has co-opted Hamas, a Sunni organization closely linked to the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, transforming the Israeli-Palestinian conflict into a jihad against the Jewish state. But Iran’s boldest achievement has been to thwart world pressure and approach the nuclear threshold. Once fortified with nuclear weapons, Iranian hegemony in the Middle East would be complete.

    I find it inconceivable that an Iran with nuclear weapons would be advantageous to the U.S. That Iran would be a substantial threat seems clear.

    Small countries like Panama, where I have lived for going on seven years, have little ability and, therefore, little obligation, to do much in situations such as this. They are probably fortunate. Few such countries have permanent seats on the U.N. Security Council, and therefore do not have a veto. The U.S. does have significant world responsibilities, and has in the past shouldered them. I am very pleased that the U.S. did what I expected of her, and prevented adoption of Saturday’s resolution which would have done no better than to allow Hamas to breathe, regroup, re-supply and resume its attacks on a country to the abolition of which it is committed.

    Dan(Miller)

  • Jason

    Much of our support of Israel is not collective guilt, by calling it that it gives us a better chance to be able to denounce them. That is the support we offer on the surface.

    Israel should be supported by the US openly and freely. If we stood behind the Palestinians, what would we get out of it? Violence and poverty.

    With Israel, there are the Medical, Technical, and Military advancements.

    Lets not forget who invented the Cell Phone, Email, Firewalls, and Text Messaging, or where a majority of those Intel chips that are powering your computers are made.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Cut the shit, kaddie. What you do not know about this country and more to the point, what you do not know about the Middle East generally is encyclopedic.

    1. Under the Ottoman Empire, there was a millet system that segregated everybody by religion and nationality. This millet system was continued in Lebanon under the French, and in Mandate Palestine by the British. The Lebanese “confessional democracy” that Dave Nalle saw there as a child/youth growing up in the Middle East was based on this millet system; the refusal of Arabs to sit in the same room with Jews under British rule enforced that millet system under the British in Mandate Palestine. Israeli patterns of residence, education, transport systems and often (but nor always) of doing business are based on this, and in developing an education law, the Israelis considered that the Moslems wanted an Islamic religious school system for their children. The Jews were divided (and still are) on that issue.

    2. All schools in Israel are overcrowded with the exception of special ed schools and small toraní schools which try to operate in a semi-private manner with an independent curriculum that heavily emphasizes the Torah, Tana”kh and Talmud. All the others are overcrowded and under-funded, particularly by comparison to American schools. I know this, as my sons are both products now of the Israeli school system. I do not care what bullshit stats you get. I have lived as a parent coping with Israeli education, as have both my sons, and you have no clue as to its problems, or the sources of the problems. I do. I LIVE HERE.

    3. Women are forced to sit separately from men on several public buses in Jerusalem.

    This is not a Moslem bus or an Arab bus, but a state-run Jewish bus that forces women to sit “in the back of the bus” like the Taliban used to do with their women, and like blacks in the pre-60s South.

    The Haredím insist on sexual segregation on buses. It is they who segregate women from men on the grounds of “modesty”. While religious Jews generally will seat men apart from women except for husbands and wives, or boyfriends and girlfriends, the Haredí carry this further, in my opinion, to extremes. However, this is not an issue for Arabs or Jews, but a cultural issue which Jews alone must deal with. It is none of the damned business of long-nosed foreigners. There are plenty of other buses they can ride. If they insist on being with Haredím, they should be prepared to abide by the rules of the Haredím. If they do not like it , they can get the fuck out. They are not needed here.

    When women attempt to oppose this rule and sit where they want, they are physically and brutally attacked.

    Miriam Shear, an American-Israeli woman, attempted to sit in the front of the bus told police that she was “…slapped, kicked, punched and pushed by a group of men who demanded that she sit in the back of the bus with the other women.”

    As I said, this is an issue for Jews to resolve, and not for long nosed foreigners who think that they know better to involve themselves with. Miriam Shear, (whom I know) is suing Egged, and eventually some resolution will be reached. I hope she succeeds and the Haredím are forced to accept more sexually integrated buses – but that is OUR business, not that of foreigners. If they don’t like how we live our lives, they can get and stay the hell out also. We’ll take a shit without their help.

    Israel is not defending itself an innocent victim would….

    4. kaddie, it is none of your damned business how we choose to defend ourselves. It is OUR business, because it is OUR lives at stake. You fuckin’ goyim have sat silently when our people were exterminated, so we will defend ourselves how WE choose. If you do not like it, that is too fuckin’ bad. This is OUR country, and frankly, after 1,700 years of you stinking goyim trying to murder us off, NONE OF YOU, NOT A DAMNED ONE OF YOU, HAS ANY RIGHT TO JUDGE US!

    G-D AND G-D ALONE WILL JUDGE US – NOT YOU ASSHOLES!

    I for one, do not give a damn what you say or what you think.

    If you do not like what we do, send in your troops and watch them go home in body bags for they will surely die! We do not need your soldiers, your opinions, your aid money or you interference in our affairs. Get the fuck out and stay the fuck out! We do not need your vetos at the UN or anything else. Frankly, we don not need your “friendship” and you will see the day under Hussein Obama, that this friendship disappears.

    OUR NUKES WILL KEEP ORDER IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND MAKE THE ARAB SAVAGES BEHAVE – AND BRING YOUR STINKING ECONOMY DOWN ON YOUR HEADS – FOR IT IS BUILT ON EVIL, MURDER AND DECEIT!

    The Arabs are not our real enemies. YOU ARE!

    The day will come when Arabs and Jews will see reconciliation and peace, when Arabs will sacrifice at our Temple in Jerusalem, and there will be peace and prosperity in the Middle East. The discrimination will end, those of us who have discriminated wrongly against their neighbors will either seek forgiveness or die. To be blunt, I do not see the same bright future for you.

  • mghirsch

    After reading this article, I am reminded of Thomas Sowell’s quote (which I am paraphrasing): We used to worry about the ignorance of the uneducated, now we must worry about the ignorance of the educated.

    I feel sorry for Jacobine’s students. I also worry about the education of all the students at the American Univeristy of Lusaka, Zambia whose administration allows its faculty to pass on such drivel as scholarly work.

  • Dan

    Once again a guy like Kenn wants to find a reason to slam America. We are not the problem here. The problem here is Israel and Plaestine. These morons have been killing each other since the dawn of time. We will not stop their fighting and killing. They will keep going until they wipe each other out.

    Kenn, please stop blaming America for everything. Your friends in the middle east own this crap pot they have cooked up.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Ruvy, out of interest, are the Haredim-designated public buses clearly marked as such in both Hebrew and English? Is it just certain buses? Or are all public buses thus segregated?

  • fred

    Remember that the US has been the great power in the world since WWII, imposing the Pax Americana. Like an alpha in any human society (or apes for that matter, hell, any social mammal) the alpha gains status by enforcing peace. That easily enough explains why we entered into the dispute in the first place, that is the job of the alpha and we wanted to be the alpha.

    We grossly underestimated the depth of Arab opposition to the presence of Israel (although some did not, particularly in the State Department) and thought we could impose our will. The tide is turning against Israel and us, but it is not easy for most to turn their backs (read Walter Russell Meade on the Jacksonian Tradition)- it is a “dishonorable” thing to do.

    That is not to take a moral stance in either direction, but to explain that there are quite natural reasons beyond religious alliance to explain the course we have taken. In my experience humans are not so much rational as rationalizing animals. We act on our gut and then come up with reasons.

    To be honest, the vehemence of your complaint implies to me that you think things would be better if it were not for this problem (and you might be worried about your own exposure as a teacher in Africa). I thought like that sometimes when I was younger. You need to take a deep breath and get a good grip. Things are going to be rough this century regardless.

    If you can’t take the heat…

  • fred

    One more thing; remember that we intervened in the Suez crisis on the side of Egypt against the Brits and Israel. Again this is the job of the alpha, restoring order and keeping the peace.

    It is the Arab unwillingness to accept the order and peace we tried to impose that has pushed us to Israel’s side. Again, this is not to argue morality or the justice of this course, but to explain is rational terms amenable to your questions.

  • Jack D

    “For a professor the author sure does refer to college political science theory over real world experience.”

    There is no question that what has been proved through decades of ‘real world experience’ is that Israel is a liability to the US.

    Israel “has proved its trust through decades of experience… Israel had been an impressive ally to the US during the Cold war”

    How ‘impressive’ is an ‘ally’ that attacked the USS Liberty on a clear day in 1967 and killed or wounded the crew with a 2-hour attack with aircraft and torpedo boats and then claimed it was a mistake.

    “They currently provide intelligence and expertise about the Arab world having the experience, know how and language skills to track what America foes in the region are doing.”

    If tracking ‘what America foes in the region are doing’ had any substance, why did the USS Liberty ‘mistake’ happen and 9/11 not get ‘tracked’?

    “Israel has never defaulted on a loan”

    When has Israel ever paid back a loan?

    “There is No other country in the region whose government, people, military or Values the US can come anywhere need to TRUSTING. ”

    Sadly, other countries in the region do not trust the US because it has voted against the rest of the world to support Israel in the UN in over a hundred Israeli violations of international law, the UN Charter and UN Resolutions..

    The following MUST be read if US problems in the Middle East are to be understood.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    DD,

    are the Haredim-designated public buses clearly marked as such in both Hebrew and English? Is it just certain buses? Or are all public buses thus segregated?

    Like everything else in Israel, it is not clear and folks assume you know – even when you don’t. This was the issue with Miriam Shear – at first. When she foud out that the bus she was riding was not an officially designated “kosher” bus by Egged (the bus coöperative, not the dairy), she insisted in sitting in the front. If I remember right, she has some difficulty walking. She was attacked by three or four Haredi men, and the driver, responsible for keeping order on the bus did nothing. It was for this reason that she, a religious Jew, sued Egged. Other organizations with agendae of smearing religious Jews joined the suit and helped finance Miriam’s cause. I do not remember how or if the suit was resolved; civil matters take a long time in Israel.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Jack B.

    The USS Liberty was attacked because it was providing intelligence to the Egyptians on Israeli tank movements in the Sinai in June 1967. This is denied by both governments because it is embarrassing for both to state openly – though if I were prime minister, I would state it openly and watch the fuckers at Foggy Bottom drop their mouths in astonishment. The Jew-hating bastards there are not used to Jews calling them out and calling them liars – which they usually are.

    The American government had a plan to intervene in the fighting in 1967 to prevent Israel from advancing – but the Israelis were so fast – they completed their campaign in six days – that the United States couldn’t get their act together. I know this because I know one of the soldiers on the team that was to coordinate the intervention.

    The United States tried to bully Israel out of attacking first in 1967, threatening that if they did, they would be all alone. They did, they were all alone, with the US secretly siding with the Arabs, and they won.

    The United States tried to bully Golda Meir out of attacking fiorst on Yom Kippur, 1973. They succeeded in their bullying, and not only did the Henry Kissinger welsh on the deal he made with the Israeli government to resupply it (it was the Sec’ty of Defense and Al Haig who made sure the resupply deal was kept), the Israeli lost over 2,500 dead, and lost territory in the war.

    Did I read you nimrods calling America an ally of Israel? With allies like that, who needs enemies?

  • Jack D

    “It is the Arab unwillingness to accept the order and peace we tried to impose that has pushed us to Israel’s side.”

    The Palestinian people have been under siege for over 50 years. They have been subjected to killing, imprisonment, land confiscation, and just about every other degrading and humiliating act that mankind has ever conceived, yet they do not submit to these oppressive acts.

    After the Palestinians voted in a free and democratic election, and the results were not to the liking of Israel, they are being subjected to collective punishment, which is a crime under international law.

    So much for the “democracy “ that we send our military forces into the Middle East to die for. What is been touted as “democracy” in reality is colonialism.

    Israel’s onslaught against innocent civilians goes unchallenged by the US, the UN leadership, European and Arab governments.

  • fred

    @jamminsue,

    “I am not saying the Islamic religion is bad. It is not. Only the extremists are, just as our own Christian extremists are dangerous.”

    I know it is hard for people today to say things are “bad”, but there are serious problems with fundamental Islam that make it completely incompatible with the rest of the world in a way completely unlike other major religions. There are Muslims who are peaceful people because that is their nature, but fundamental Islam, and that incorporates the vast majority of Muslims, is tribalism gone metastatic. Like cancer we can either succumb to it (submit) or exise it, Islam offers no other option. By fundamental Islam I mean that which regards the Quran as the literal eternal word of Allah and the Ahadith as the record of the life of the perfect man whom all men should emulate.

    Before anyone takes me to task and starts quoting the Quran, I would like to say that I am familiar with the meaning of abrogation and its application to the Quran and if you are not please do not waste your energy typing a response – it will be meaningless.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Kenn,

    You better study your history before writing dumb articles like this. In 1947, Setc’ty of State George Marshall quit when Truman insisted on voting for a partition (illegal, by the way) of the Palestine Mandate, saying it was a mistake of historical proportions. After the partition vote, they tried to sandbag ben-Gurion’s declaration of a State. In 1949, when YitzHaq Rabin’s tank colum reached el-Arish, Truman threatened withdrawal of American recognition of the State unless Israel pulled back, America has never recognized Jerusalem as the capital of the State of Israel. With one hand they have given this country money – with the other, they have twisted the knife of destruction in its back. America isn’t allied with Israel, even though lots of Americans feel a sense of commonality with her.

    AMERICA IS AN ENEMY. AND TOO DAMNED MANY AMERICANS JUST CAN’T SEEM TO ACCEPT THE REALITY OF THE POLICY OF THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT – LIKE YOU.

  • Michael Maehl

    Seems to me that the academic sitting safely well away in Zambia is representative of what Ruvy so gently alluded to. That is the tacit approval of the MSM western media and “celebs” of all things terrorist but never in favor of the Israelis doing the right thing. The Israelis have even taken time to do all that wasteful talking those less-enlightened think is necessary for a long time before actually taking action.

    What is it with you drones who “cry for peace” and then damn those who only seek it for themselves? Your memories are the epitome of selective recall. I’m sure you’re all very good at debating “how it should be” while equally comfortable letting others take any risk.

    I’m not Jewish nor an evangelical. I am a former combat infantry vet and know this, all you idealists. There truly are evil people out there with whom you cannot “discuss” things…ever. I salute the chutzpah and focus of the Israeli people and government in taking it to the purveyors of such eveil and doing their best to annihilate them.

    I am very proud to consider them as allies.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Jack B.

    The Palestinian people have been under siege for over 50 years. They have been subjected to killing, imprisonment, land confiscation, and just about every other degrading and humiliating act that mankind has ever conceived, yet they do not submit to these oppressive acts.

    After the Palestinians voted in a free and democratic election, and the results were not to the liking of Israel, they are being subjected to collective punishment, which is a crime under international law.

    You can read what really is going on between Israel, the PLO and Hamas here at comments 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17, 21 – or you can parrot the Arab bullshit line. [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Fred,

    Instead of spending paragraphs trying to define “fundamental” Islam, why don’t you solve your problem by calling these heretical scum by their proper name?

    WAHHABI

  • Jack D

    “The USS Liberty was attacked because it was providing intelligence to the Egyptians on Israeli tank movements in the Sinai in June 1967.”

    Ridiculous!

    Israel attacked the USS Liberty using unmarked aircraft. This is a fact which proves Israel knew exactly who they were attacking. Israel’s story is that they thought USS Liberty was an Egyptian ship and therefore a legitimate target of war. If that were true, there would be no reason to attack a supposedly Egyptian ship with unmarked aircraft. The only possible reason to use unmarked aircraft to attack the ship is that Israel knew it was an American ship and intended to sink it, then to blame the attack on Egypt.

    Admiral Moorer, who as top legal council to the official investigation is in a position to know, agrees that Israel intended to sink the USS Liberty and blame Egypt for it, thus dragging the United States into a war on Israel’s behalf. The objective was to frame Arabs and set them up as targets for the United States.

    The real question facing the American people is why the US Government is more concerned with protecting Israel after they were caught killing Americans rather than sever all relations, not to mention military actions the US has taken in other cases where Americans were massacred.

  • Canuck

    To paraphrase the Reverend Jeremiah Wright, Hamas’ chickens are coming home to roost!

  • Jack D

    Keep in mind that Hamas was created by Israel to offset the influence of the PLO. How about those cickens?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Jack B.

    There is nothing ridiculous to what I say. I speak the truth. If the Israelis used unmarked aircraft to attack the USS liberty to try to force your country into war on our side, so much the better for the attempted deception! You deserve to be hoisted on your own petard!

    We have to play by your damned rules of war? Who gives a shit about your damned rules of war? When Jews died in the concentration camps YOUR FUCKING ARMY AIR CORPS NEVER ONCE BOMBED A CONCENTRATION CAMP! WE DON’T OWE YOU HEARTLESS BASTARDS JACK SHIT!

    How WE defend ourselves against an American enemy is OUR business and if you don’t like it, too fuckin’ bad!

  • Jack D

    Bomb concentration camps?

    First, there was no clear evidence of where they were located.

    Second, how do you get WWII bombs to distinguish between guards and inmates?

  • fred

    Ruvy, January 4, 2009 @ 18:37PM

    It goes back a lot farther than Wahab. The gates of Ijtahid were declared closed in the 12th century.

  • Jack D

    Fifteen years after the attack on the USS Liberty, an Israeli pilot approached Liberty survivors and then held extensive interviews with former Congressman Paul N. (Pete) McCloskey about his role in the attack. According to this Israeli pilot, he recognized the Liberty as American ship immediately and so informed his headquarters. He was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested.

    Later, a dual-citizen Israeli major told survivors that he was in an Israeli war room where he heard that pilot’s radio report. The attacking pilots and everyone in the Israeli war room knew that they were attacking an American ship, the major said. He recanted the statement only after he received threatening phone calls from Israel.

    The pilot’s protests also were heard by radio monitors in the U.S. Embassy in Lebanon. U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon Dwight Porter confirmed this. Porter told his story to syndicated columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak and offered to submit to further questioning by authorities. Unfortunately, no one in the U.S. government had any interest in hearing these first-person accounts of the Israeli attack.

    Why?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Jack, you have been spreading bullshit all night! Fist of all, it was very clear knowledge to all where the concentration camps were. Only the ones furthest east in Poland were out of range of American and British bombers. Tracks led there because they were major slaughterhouses – in the most literal sense of the word.

    AND TO REPEAT: YOUR DAMNED TO ARMY AIR CORPS DID NOT BOMB A SINGLE ONE! NEITHER DID THE BRITISH! THE LEADERSHIP BOTH IN ENGLAND AND AMERICA LIKED THE IDEA OF THE GERMANS KILLING OFF THE JEWS FOR THEM – THAT WAY THEY DIDN’T HAVE TO GET THEIR HANDS DIRTY AND CAME OUT OF THE WHOLE THING SMELLING LIKE ROSES – AND THE JEWS WERE STILL DEAD!

    What a bunch of scummy bastards! May G-d judge you all well and fully for that.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    And jack, nothing you wriote here takes away from what I said about you country spying on our tank movements in the Sinai in 1967 – all you talk about is intimidation of pilots coming forward to state that they bombed the USS liberty. So? I agreed that Israel bombed the USS Liberty. Are you trying to sell ice to an Eskimo, or beat a dead horse – or both?

  • Jack D

    “Jack, you have been spreading bullshit all night! Fist of all, it was very clear knowledge to all where the concentration camps were.”

    The camps could have been POW camps. There were 3 million Soviets and other POW’s in them. If they were bombed the Nazis could have retaliated by killing any survivors.

    In many cases, the concentration camps were forced labor camps. If they all were bombed, there would have been no survivors to emigrate to Israel or anywhere else.

    In addition, the prime objective of the war was to end it before long range V-2’s, jet aircraft, and other advanced weapons were available to the Nazis, not to bomb concentration camps.

    You only see history through your distorted prism.

    Stop trying to rewrite history.

  • fred

    Jack D.,

    “Unfortunately, no one in the U.S. government had any interest in hearing these first-person accounts of the Israeli attack.

    Why?”

    There is plenty of evidence that the Johnson administration knew what went on but it did not meet their aims to create a rift with Israel (which disclosing it would most definitely have done). Again, you have to realize that the goal is to act as the alpha peacemaker, not favor one side or the other. Politicians have very different goals and ideals than the rest of us. For that perfidy you need to be angry at the guys in Washington who sent the Liberty into harms way.

    I think Ruvy is right that we were transmitting info to the Arabs, although I believe it was, again, to try to act as the alpha peacemaker, not as an enemy of Israel. Johnson knew we were playing with fire and kept silent. It is painful to the men who paid the price and those who are loyal to them, but politicians have other values and we fool ourselves if we deny it.

    Ruvy, I think you are mistaken to call us an enemy. I am not trying to tell you that we are your BFF and want to help all Israelis achieve all their dreams, but the US is not out to destroy Israel, that’s really a stretch. The US definitely has tried to thwart that segment of the Israeli populace that has “expansionist” aims, however they might be defined, but, for the most part, the US also has stood for the survival of Israel as a Jewish state (please note, I did not say 100% of Americans).

    I would not recommend that Israel trust her fate to the goodwill of America, but an enemy in the sense of survival, we are not, at least not intentionally.

  • DenoMac

    For the people who are calling Israel an apartheid state because they women and men sit separate, have you ever been an Orthodox shul. Is that apartheid too? It’s called modesty. Now the Ultra-Orthodox do take it far, but like Ruvy said, that’s a cultural issue to be decided by the Ultra Orthodox and secular Jews. From what i’ve heard Israeli Arabs enjoy the same status as any other citizen of Israel. Yes, Hamas was democratically elected in Gaza but now the residents of Gaza are paying the price. Hamas has caused causalities on both sides, yet Israel is being painted as the bad guy because they have more weapons than Hamas. Iran and Hezbollah (two well-know Jew haters) are talking big words but they aren’t acting because they know the international opinion of them will go lower. They’re using the Palestinians as martyrs for their own selfish desires. I wish the Palestinians would wake up and smell the coffee.

  • Jack D

    Fred, “Again, you have to realize that the goal is to act as the alpha peacemaker, not favor one side or the other.”

    Americans are killed and wounded and you want Americans to be silent peacemakers?

    Why should they?

    And what peace?

  • fred

    Jack D. January 4, 2009 @ 20:30PM

    Hell, man, I’m not trying to argue what is right, I’m just telling you what IS.

  • fred

    That public men publish falsehoods
    Is nothing new. That America must accept
    Like the historical republics corruption and empire
    Has been known for years.

    Be angry at the sun for setting
    If these things anger you. Watch the wheel slope and turn,
    They are all bound on the wheel, these people, those warriors.
    This republic, Europe, Asia.

    Observe them gesticulating,
    Observe them going down. The gang serves lies, the passionate
    Man plays his part; the cold passion for truth
    Hunts in no pack.

    You are not Catullus, you know,
    To lampoon these crude sketches of Caesar. You are far
    From Dante’s feet, but even farther from his dirty
    Political hatreds.

    Let boys want pleasure, and men
    Struggle for power, and women perhaps for fame,
    And the servile to serve a Leader and the dupes to be duped.
    Yours is not theirs.

    /Robinson Jeffers ca 1940

  • Jack D

    Fred, we know what is.

    “For that perfidy you need to be angry at the guys in Washington who sent the Liberty into harms way.”

    Would you say the same thing aabout the USS Cole?

    In over 200 years what other American ship has ever been attacked with impunity?

  • fred

    Jack D. January 4, 2009 @ 20:30PM

    I should have said what WAS.

    We are backing down from that role. One should realize that whether one likes it or not, such times, when the alpha is pulling back from ruling the roost, are dangerous for the world. Wars have a way of breaking out when that genie gets out of the bottle.

  • fred

    In over 200 years what other American ship has ever been attacked with impunity?

    The Reuben James comes to mind.

  • Jack D

    The Reuben James comes to mind as the first US warship torpedoed by a Nazi submarine in WWII.

    The Nazis lost the subsequent war.

    No impunity.

  • Paul

    I could care less if Isreal dissappeared off the planet. We could get our Intel chips manufactured in China for all I care. Our close relations with and Isreal’s influence IS a detriment to this nation. Norway and the Swiss are free and liberal and terrorists aren’t trying to wipe them out. So “they hate us for our freedoms” is bull. These are MY opinions and if you don’t like ’em, you can blow your top and eat my $h!+. Last I heard, this is a free nation and this is my free speach. eat it.

  • fred

    January 4, 2009 @ 21:01PM

    The Germans declared war on us. We did not retaliate for the sinking of the James.

    Again, I’m not arguing what is right, just what is.

    Even if no other ship ever has been sunk with impunity, that’s what happened with the Liberty. I told you why I think it went down the way it did. Johnson was playing with fire and good men paid the price.

  • fred

    Jack D.

    As regards the Cole, no I would not say the same, we were in a “friendly” port in time of peace so there was no duplicity on the part of leaders involved in the ship being there. We knew that Al Quaeda was out to do us harm and we were out to do them harm.

  • Jack D

    Fred, “there was no duplicity on the part of leaders involved in the ship being there.’

    Of course.

    The point was there was no impunity to let the attackers off the hook.

  • Jack D

    Fred:

    “The Germans declared war on us. We did not retaliate for the sinking of the James.”

    You think that if Germany had not declared war immediately after Pearl Harbor to honor its mutual defense treaty with Japan, and thereby beat us to declaring war, that we would not have declared war anyway after the Reuban James was sunk?

  • fred

    Jack D. January 4, 2009 @ 21:48PM

    re: the sinking of the James.

    Apparently the sinking of the James was not considered sufficient casus belli by Americans at the time as we did not declare war in the 6 weeks between the sinking and the German (and Italian) declaration. Again, Roosevelt did not seem to think he could get a declaration against Germany on the 8th as he did not openly seek one. Anti-war sentiment was extremely high. In August of 1941 the draft survived a vote in Congress by a single vote.

    We probably would have eventually gotten into the war in Europe as that was Roosevelt’s goal, but it would not have been right away and it would have taken a lot to get us to declare it. I definitely do not think we would have over the James. There were a lot of voices blaming Roosevelt for sending her into harm’s way as we were supposed to be a neutral country.

  • fred

    Looking back up through other posts I note that some have proposed that peace with the Palestinians could be had in one way or another. To quote the Hamas Charter:

    Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!

    There is not the slightest chance of peace between Hamas (or any fundamentalist Muslim group) and Israel – read the Hamas charter.

    The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it. No Arab country nor the aggregate of all Arab countries, and no Arab King or President nor all of them in the aggregate, have that right, nor has that right any organization or the aggregate of all organizations, be they Palestinian or Arab, because Palestine is an Islamic Waqf throughout all generations and to the Day of Resurrection. Who can presume to speak for all Islamic Generations to the Day of Resurrection? This is the status [of the land] in Islamic Shari’a, and it is similar to all lands conquered by Islam by force, and made thereby Waqf lands upon their conquest, for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection.

  • Aussie Input.

    Well at least the Israelis have the guts to do something about stopping, real murderers, that have no idea what the word peace is. Why don’t you put your gun where your mouths are and get off your cowardly arses and fight for what you think is right, instead of offering all the verbal bullshit that, you seam to be only capable off, just like the rest of so called world leaders, who do not posses the intestinal fortitude to stop it. this problem in the first place, started outside, not within.
    Know all-IDIOTS.

  • Franco

    #23 — January 4, 2009 @ 18:09PM — Jack D

    “After the Palestinians voted in a free and democratic election, and the results were not to the liking of Israel, they are being subjected to collective punishment, which is a crime under international law.”

    To use free democratic elections as the premise for your argument to try and bring statues to Hamas is like pissing into the exhaust blasé of a jet engine.

    The moment the radical Islamic Hamas brutally killed off its more moderate democratic political rival Fatah in Gaza, was the moment your asserting went into the toilet.

    In fact, even before the 2007 blood bath Hamss handed Fatah eliminating all political rivalry and created their radical Islamic one-party system in Gaza, and even before the 2006 elections, it was apparent to anyone paying attention that Hamas was the radical hardcore “one party wolf” in democratic sheep’s clothing they have proved to be.

    Anyone today who would still be arguing for Hamas credibly under democratic elections is completely and utterly obtuse, or has been re-educated in a radical mosque somewhere.

    Hamas will not, can not, and promises never to make peace with Israel, and Hamas will even kill off their own Palestinian brothers and sisters who do want peace with Israel..

    Hamas is a radical Islamic movement. It is spelled out clearly for all to read in their charter, which they are sworn to. Ever read it? Know how to Google? Here let me save you some time.

    “The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up.”

    “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”

    “There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”

    OK, stack those up against any MSM or Activist group in support or Hamas. Do they know about Hamas mission? Do they care? Do they think that Hamas charter is just radial Islmic hot air?

    I challenge anyone to refute the following facts.

    In September 2005, Israel vacated Gaza, dismantled all the settlements in the Gaza Strip. Hamas then quietly smuggled in vast amounts of explosives, weapons and rockets; they prepared themselves for battle.

    In January 2006, rule over Gaza passed to the Hamas government under Ismail Haniyeh. Instead of bringing peace talks to the table or investors to Gaza, the Hamas government brought the guerrilla-warfare trainers of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard.

    In June 2007, in a brutal and bloody attack on Fatah, Hamas took control of Gaza and killed, imprisoned or chased out the leaders and followers of President Mahmoud Abbas’s Fatah. Gaza became nothing less than a military base for Iran.

    Up until the Hamas takeover, 750 trucks would cross the border each day with imports and exports in trade with Gaza as the border crossings was being controlled by Abbas’s Presidential Guard, not by Hamas terrorists. The Hamas takeover is what in effect locked the gates of Gaza.

    Hamas teaches the school children in Gaza to “Kill Jews” Hamas has set up children’s TV channels showing Mickey Mouse and other cartoon characters telling children to Kill Jews for the glowy of Allah and all of Palistine. YouTube has a fare database on this if you have the stomach for it.

    This is the stuff the MSM and activists do not tell you about in their drumming support for Hamas. This is not so much reckless and dangerous to all of use, but is assuredly is to this current and the next generation in Gaza.

    Our largest investment of time, effort and wealth must be in educating future generations for a two state system.

    Israel getting rid of Hamas now will also mean Israel is without excuse for having to come to the table with sincere “two-state mindset” Palestinian politicians and move this process forward.

    Hamas has got to go, and that is not an argument that’s a fact. And the sooner the better.

  • anry irishman

    the israelis are the colonial masters of the usa. we are not allied with them. they own us and they own the colonial “government” in washington dc. got it?

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    YOUR FUCKING ARMY AIR CORPS NEVER ONCE BOMBED A CONCENTRATION CAMP!

    Ruvy, the WWII air forces deliberately avoided bombing concentration camps because if they had it would have meant killing thousands and thousands of jews and other prisoners. That’s why there were still some left alive to rescue at the end of the war, no?

    Dave

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    I don’t suppose this has a lot to do with the spine of this discussion, but since Ruvy brought it up, I decided to carry the issue of the allies not bombing concentration camps a bit further.

    I recently visited the Ravensbruck concentration camp in northern Germany. Both of my sons have toured Dachau. I was talking with one of them on the phone as I read Ruvy’s damnation of us all.

    Ravensbruck is a relatively small camp, or so I’m told, and any bombing of it would have likely resulted in the death of many of those being held there. The administration building sits at the front of the walled area containing the barracks and a small factory where the inmates made SS uniforms is at the rear. The nearest barracks were no more than perhaps a hundred yards or so from the administration building. No bombers of that era had the precision to make “surgical” attacks.

    While Dachau, I’m told is much larger, my son believes that owing to its layout, it would have been equally difficult to accurately pinpoint targets without a huge amount of collateral damage.

    I know nothing of the other camps, but I assume that most would have been similarly difficult to attack without taking out a large # of prisoners.

    Of course, Ruvy is likely correct regarding a level of anti-semitism here in the U.S. and pretty much everywhere else for that matter. Remember the “St. Louis?”

    This is a question I posed to Ruvy some time ago, one that I’m not comfortable in asking, but one that perhaps should be considered, perhaps especially by the Israelis and Jews in general.

    Why have Jews been hated and persecuted pretty much throughout their history? I have no answer, but it is curious why there has so often been distrust, suspicion and outright hatred of Jews around the world. What is it about their culture, their religious strictures, their separateness, that brings about this repeated fear and loathing? Is the persecution of Jews ever and always the fault of the persecutor?

    B

  • Holocast-In-Gaza

    @Baritone – Why Jews are so hated? Come on – just start to read the real history and also the real Holocaust, which in fact is not owned by the Jews. The majority of Holocaust victims were not Jews and you know that.

    Some people think they are more valuable then others.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    HIG,

    I am not an advocate of anti-Jewish sentiment. I don’t “know” any such thing. I do know that only around 16% of the over 100000 people murdered at Ravensbruck were Jews. Most were, however, women and children. As to numbers at other camps the % of Jewish victims was much higher. That millions of Jews were killed in Europe in the 1930s and 1940s is NOT a myth. To suggest otherwise is a grotesque mockery.

    However, there is in my mind no substantive reason for Jewish persecution, but I do believe they have brought a good deal of it on themselves owing to their refusal to assimilate into native societies, their insistence on separateness which naturally spawns suspicion. It is, in effect, a condescencion, and, therefore, an insult. Generally, people don’t take well to insult.

    Just a note. I sometimes go off on diatribes and have more than once been accused of being – well, of being a potty mouth. I would point out though, that by comparison, Ruvy is a raving lunatic who shouldn’t be allowed access to sharp objects. Sorry Ruvy, our quiet little discussions about livng and driving in the Big Apple and such notwithstanding, I believe you have fallen off the edge of the earth.

    B

  • Abu Ahmed Salahuddin

    As a Palestinian who has been living in a refugee camp for a bout 50 years I regret to say that our enemy is not only Israel; It is the USA which has been abetting this criminal Jewish entity. We are being killed by Jews but with American approval, money, technology and support. How do you want us to love America?!!! We have nothing against decent Americans, but your country is the cause of our misery. If you can’t play a fair role, have the decency to let others do that, such as the UN which has been hijacked by your country.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Eventually, one has to get some sleep.

    Baritone,

    The reason Jews are hated is very simple. We are resented for having brought a humane code of law to mankind, and for upsetting the applecart of Greek paganism, which is a religion of hopelessness arrayed against the fates. Germanic paganism is not that much different. Not only that, Jews had the eternal gall to rebel against the savages who thought they were THE masters of the world, the Romans (check out the Roman name for the Mediterranean, Mare Nostrum – our sea). These scum decided to pursue a 600 year policy of genocide and ethnic cleansing against us (it would have been much shorter, but they didn’t comprehend concentration camps and didn’t have Zyklon B – technology really does speed things up!).

    Christians, originally a breakaway sect from Jews, eventually bought into a lot of that paganism. And they preached, day in and day out that we Jews killed your “god” (you may be atheist now, but you were raised a Christian as a child – it shows all over your writing).

    Christianity, as a religion, attempts to take the essence of a humane code, ours, and tack it on to a religion of blood sacrifice of humans (or gods, if you will) to be performed every single day. Christianity is nothing more than cannibalism dressed up in a fancy ceremony. This makes it abhorrent to us Jews. In addition, it divides a Divinity in three and insists that this is the universal faith, something else that is abhorrent to us. For many years, it was pretty damned militant about that insistence, murdering off anyone who argued with the official line (check your history of Europe in the dark and middle ages), not to mention any “god-killers” like us.

    To put it bluntly, when Jews could, they sought not to live under such barbarism and were willing to pay for the privilege. That is how the ghetto started. It was a community of Jews living under Jewish law, under the “protection” of some Christian prince. As for a lot of Christina “stereotypes” of Jews, they were the bigotry of Christians writ large and taught as gospel – until the late 1600’s in Poland, anyway. Things started to really go wrong there, but frankly, I don’t want to get into that now. It hurts too much. But, a lot of what goes on in Israel today that is wrong stems from the souring of Jewish culture as Poland declined.

    Jews were happy to live as second class citizens under the Moslems – at first. At least the Moslems did not insist on a program of constantly murdering and humiliating Jews – at first. But the ugly side of Moslems showed when the economy went bad or when some idiot thinking like the Wahhabi do today arose as a ruler. Here one needs to do some reading, but the history of Moslem Spain is illustrative. It was a good place for Jews – sometimes.

    Now, Baritone, it is not my job to bother myself over why you (not you personally) hate us. It is my job to make sure that you (again, not you personally) don’t get the chance to actualize that hatred. If that requires killing you (again, not you personally), so be it. This is found in the Talmud, and was the basis of much of the teachings of Rav Meir Kahane, z”l, hy”d. When you compare his writings to this:

    “One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail.”
    — Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1]

    or this: The nation of Israel is pure and the Arabs are a nation of donkeys. They are an evil disaster, an evil devil, and a nasty affliction. The Arabs are donkeys and beasts. They want to take our girls. They are endowed with true filthiness. There is pure and there is impure and they are impure.”
    — Rabbi David Batzri, head of the Magen David Yeshiva in Jerusalem [Haaretz, March 21, 2006]

    you begin to realize that Rav Kahane was not only not a racist, but that the liberalism and tolerance that he learned in America carried through in his own teachings. In addition, he was painfully honest, examining the faults of Jewish culture – something that the rabbis quoted above are unwilling to do – and demonstrating the Hand of G-d in much or the killing the Nazis did during WWII against my people, and others. That may be something you do not wish to recognize, but that is not my problem. My problem is to be able to look in the mirror and recognize the evil my own people have done to fellow Jews.

    That is a lot harder to swallow than the angry rantings of the rabbis you see above. They indulge in false self-flattery, and in angry denunciation of a people who will one day be friends and allies. But one should look at the entire articles to see why these statements were made. It may very well be against the background of an Arab terror attack when anger and rage come out in temperate men who cannot take vengeance directly.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Ruvy, there is a huge difference between resented and hated. I resent you because you are so militant about your unsubstantiated faith and that makes me distrust you; on the other hand, I don’t hate you at all.

    The way you leap so readily to the victim or martyr posture is frankly boring and, to my mind, utterly pointless, irrelevant and untrue. Not that I think it is what Judaism represents anyway, but why would people resent a “humane code of law”?

    As you know, I don’t really have much interest at all in the largely tedious ins and outs of the whole Jewish/Christian/Muslim debate, the whole lot of you monotheists are a real burden on the rest of the world.

    What I do notice from your many rants here is a sense of self-importance, to my mind an over-inflated one. There are 7 million Jews in Israel, another 7 million scattered around the world, and their issues are forced upon the rest of us in a massively disproportionate way. It amazes me that the concerns of such a small minority of the almost 7 billion people on this planet, some 0.2% of us, gets so much attention. There are more important issues to deal with.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    A New Reality is an opinion piece by Hana Levi Julian, a leading journalist or Arutz Sheva.

    From her article:

    The bus was unusually empty, but I gave it little thought; and since I had not listened to the radio since ending my shift an hour earlier, I did not know that the first long-range missile had finally reached Be’er Sheva. In blissful ignorance, I traveled to Jerusalem, had my meeting, and boarded the bus for the return ride at 11:00 pm none the wiser.

    It wasn’t until everyone was off the bus, and the driver was a few blocks from my house that he casually mentioned the attack on Be’er Sheva……

    I dragged myself to the bus stop, since I had to go to the Tax Office – in Be’er Sheva. The latest news caught up with me as a fellow passenger tried to calm a friend down on the phone.

    My questions didn’t have long to wait. While I had struggled to rest, in the hour after dawn, the faceless terrorists who hated me so much had already gotten busy and fired another missile. This time their aim was better; instead of hitting the schoolyard, as they had the night before, the long-range Chinese-made Grad-type Katyusha missile had slammed into a ninth grade classroom.

    Home Front Command had robbed the terrorists of their prey, however. The centrally-located Be’er Sheva high school was empty. The IDF had advised the city to cancel school and keep children home for the rest of the week.

    The real question remains: will HizbAllah get involved? If they manage to bombard Tel Aviv, the whole complexion of how Israelis look at the Arabs will change.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Chris, look at the stats. This article – about why Americans are allies with Israel – is getting more readers then any article. It has been for a while. Kenn Jacobine has hit a nerve. That’s why I did my news update here instead of at Mark Schannon’s piece. In other words, you guys make us more important than we really are….

    As for my condemnations of you all, you deserve them. Most Jews censor themselves or whine out “reasonable” arguments. I condemn. And that is really why you bothered to tell me how “bored” you are.

    As for your resentments – well, we all have resentments Chris. It’s part of life. Deal with it.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    The Arutz Sheva website is carrying a rah rah Israel version of the news lately. The end of this article shows the low level to which the Israeli leadership has fallen. From the article:

    Israel is seeking an international presence with heavily-armed supervisors. One Israeli official proposed to the U.S. that its Army Corps take over the job of supervising the tunnels. The response was said to be “positive.”

    So, the Israeli government is doing exactly what I predicted it would do – invite in US soldiers to do what it didn’t have the balls to do. Eventually that “invite” will be extended to task Americans with the other task the IDF can’t handle – kicking us out of our homes in Judea and Samaria. At least, that is the plan.

    In the meantime, my favorite source of news, the Samson Blinded Blogsite, has been absolutely empty – a blank page.

    some examples of Israeli “democracy” I never disagreed with kaddie on this point.

    Israel has never been a functioning democracy. The blanking out – literally – of the Samson Blinded Blog is an example of this fact, among thousands of others, many of which are discriminatory against Arabs, and many of which are discriminatory against believing Jews. Oh, Israelis make a big stink about what a “democracy” they are – but they barely have a clue as to how one operates. Americans at least know how to operate one – sorta – but are just too damned lazy to.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Ruvy, I haven’t seen any stats but if this article is proving popular, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it is because a majority agrees with it.

    I could care less, but not much less, who you condemn or why; it’s simply not very interesting or relevant to much of anything.

    As to my resentments, I am dealing with them and always have. Why did you leap to the assumption that I needed your advice on that? Frankly, I wouldn’t take your advice on how to cross a road.

    On a positive note, at least we both agree that we would support less Western involvement, even total disconnection, in Israel. Where we disagree is that you seem to seriously believe that Israel can survive such a thing, which goes back to that rampant egomania thing of yours.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Ruvy, I haven’t seen any stats but if this article is proving popular, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it is because a majority agrees with it.

    I said popular – I do not pretend to discern opinion from what I see on the most popular articles chart. But the title has struck a nerve, and folks are paying attention – at least as of this moment. That can change in an eyeblink. Therefore, it is worth posting my updates here.

    I’m happy you are dealing with your resentments. That, and the guy from CBS (the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics, not the Columbia Broadcasting System) pumping us for information has just made my day. I tried to stick you in his survey as a “professional nuisance” but his narrow minded forms had no room for you. Sorry. We’ll try harder next time.

  • Franco

    #62 — Abu Ahmed Salahuddin

    If you can’t play a fair role, have the decency to let others do that,

    Define fair role.

  • Mango

    We’re allied with Israel because its founders control our currency.

  • http://www.deism.com Bob Johnson

    Could a major fundamental reason for Israel’s aggression be the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament? For example, Deuteronomy 7:6 says the Jews/Hebrews are “above all people that are upon the face of the earth.” The author of this claim to Jewish superiority over all other people was an ancient Hebrew, but it is taken by too many to be the voice of God.

    Isaiah 60:12 says those nations that will not sever Israel will perish. It appears both political parties in the US have bought that one hook line and sinker!

    Progress! Bob Johnson

  • Franco

    #68 — Christopher Rose

    Chris sez to Ruvy…

    “On a positive note, at least we both agree that we would support less Western involvement, even total disconnection, in Israel”.

    “Where we disagree is that you seem to seriously believe that Israel can survive such a thing,”

    Ruvy, while Chris is encouraging a Western disconnection, even total disconnection from Israel as a positive thing, he also seriously believes (and admits it at the very same time) that Israel will not be able to survive following such a Western disconnection.

    Regardless of what you believe to the contrary Ruby on Israels survivality, it’s ironic how Chris argues against your claims of Jewish/Israeli persecution and calls them “utterly pointless, irrelevant and untrue”, then turns right around and proves your point by promoting as a positive note the un-survivability of Israel.

    It is further ironic how Chris is living proof that history dose repeat itself.

    Chris unknowingly reveals himself as an old school European elitist (albeit the back door kind) in the “We must resolve the Jewish Issue” that promoted itself throughout both Eastern and Western Europe through the last half of the 19th century and the first half of the 20th.

    Chris acts in the same way the old school European elitist did back then in wanting to look proper and politically correct and does not what his hands dirty in promotion of out right arresting and elimination in finding a solution, hence the back door approach as evidenced here so someone else can do it.

    I ask you, is there a difference between the two? I assert the back door elitist is the more insidious of the two.

    Critical thinking has never been one of Chris strong suits as evidenced here. It is further evidenced in the fact that even if Chris were right (which he seriously believes) it is futher ironic that he makes no other comments on what such an event would usher into the Middle East as Israel was being destroyed.

    Chris’s only reference to this pending cataclysmic event was – “it’s simply not very interesting or relevant to much of anything” and “there are more important issues to deal with”.

    But Ruvy, don’t take anything Chris says personally, remember, Chris also said he did not hate you.

    What ever gets you through the night Chris.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Aah, the return of Franco, the man who posts excessively verbose comments yet apparently lacks the ability to understand what he is commenting on!

    Some corrections are needed:- I’m not encouraging a disconnection from Israel and don’t think it will happen; I do doubt that Israel could survive without Western support; I said the way that Ruvy acted the victim or martyr was irrelevant, not claims of “Jewish/Israeli persecution”; nor did I promote “as a positive note the un-survivability of Israel”; I have little interest in resolving the Jewish issue, indeed, I think it commands too much global attention; finally, I said that who Ruvy chooses to condemn was not very interesting or relevant, not the destruction of Israel.

    Franco, well done on confirming my opinion that you are a classic example of an empty vessel making a lot of noise, in your case utterly unfounded and mindless noise. Do you work at such total miscomprehension or does it come naturally?

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Much as we pretend to be secular, the West is allied with Israel primarily for religious reasons. The guilt issue and the wedge issue are secondary. The bottom line is this: ditch Israel, and we lose access to Jerusalem.

    Ironically, our persistent persecution of Jews over the centuries has the same root.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Franco, it looks like you seem to have nailed Chris down (or up). Chris is as much an elitist as is Dave Nalle – but they represent two different elites. Dave represents the elite of those who have contacts in Washington. He really is a Washington elitist – except that he lives near Austin.

    Chris seems to represent the modern European pagan elite, with its view towards the future. Chris is positively hateful when it comes to religion, and not just mine. But I do not think he is hateful towards me – contemptuous perhaps, but not hateful.

  • Jack D

    ” The bottom line is this: ditch Israel, and we lose access to Jerusalem. Ironically, our persistent persecution of Jews over the centuries has the same root.”

    I didn’t realize Adolf Hitler feared losing access to Jerusalem.

  • robertsgt40

    Israel is not a sovereign nation. It is a bastard state created by The US and Great Britain(remember the balfour declaration?) The indigenous people of that are are the semites. The occupiers are the Khzars. (converted Jews). They are ungodly by any definition unless you’re referring to Baal.

  • http://jetspolitics.blogspot.com/ Jet

    So sayeth you robertsgt40… you should print that on a t-shirt and explain how that affects your daily life.

    Better yet, how about plopping yourself down in a 1940s style concentration camp with very little food and you have to drink your own piss for water, and live 24-7 knowing you could be killed at any moment because of your religion, and you get to watch as your neighbors and loved ones are brutally shot, gassed, or thrown alive into cremation ovens.

    … they you’ll have the right to shoot your ignorant mouth off.

    I understand that much and I’m not even jewish!

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    I didn’t realize Adolf Hitler feared losing access to Jerusalem.

    Jack, at no point did Hitler and modern Israel exist at the same time.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Ruvy, I must ask just how much difference is there between the Jews and Palestinians in your land today? Are not Palestinians treated as “bastard” Arab children by fellow Muslims and Arabs? Aren’t the Palestinians victims of their own Arab world? It seems to me that if Israelis and Palestinians stopped and took one long, deep breath they would realize they they have so much more in common than not.

    If this Gaza conflict escalates, as I expect it will, I certainly hope that the incoming Administration holds steadfast and stays out of the conflict. America has only one mission in the Middle East and that is to GET THE HELL OUT, period.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Ruvy @ #76:

    Chris’s many shortcomings as perceived by you pale in comparison to his single biggest character flaw, which is his inexplicable and unwavering support of Manchester United.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Much of the discourse here pretty much proves the point that each camp has its pantented set of arguments against the other. The dispute between these people goes back virtually beyond memory. Neither side has evolved beyond its nearly pre-historic hatreds.

    Ruvy painstakingly goes through history damning most everyone while elevating Jews. In his biased mind, apparently only Jews deserve to be considered civilized. All others are either heathens, or pagans, or cannibals latching onto elements of the “superior” Jewish canon.

    It is apparent that Ruvy has bought into the notion that Jews are “above all people that are upon the face of the earth.” He looks upon the rest of the world’s people as nothing more than barbarians bent on the destruction of his people.

    I guess Ruvy will just have to live with that.

    B

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    A number of times I have seen this bullshit about the Khazars – the argument being that all Ashkenazi Jews are descendants of a Turkic people which converted to Judaism a thousand years back or more.

    Proving such an argument requires three elements.

    The first is linguistic. The second is genetic. The third is based on custom and history.

    Ashkenazi Jews spoke Yiddish in Europe, and some still do here. I am a Yiddish speaker. If we Ashkenazim were all indeed converts and descended from the Khazars, the language of the Ashkenazim would bear proof of that. There would be dozens, if not hundreds of words of Turkic origin in Yiddish. There are a grand total of two words of Turkish origin in Yiddish. One is a derogatory term for Turk, Halvásh, the the other is a food eaten by Turks when they are in mourning – Halvá. That is all she wrote. So the linguistic test fails to prove the case.

    The next test is the genetic test. Jews have a priestly caste, the kohaním. All of the priests are descended from Aharón (Aaron), the brother of Moshé (Moses). Of those claiming to be kohanim, 62% have a marker on their Y chromosomes that goes back over 100 generations. This marker appears in all groups of Jews, Ashkenazim, MizraHim and Sefaradim in roughly the same percentage. This means, in plain English, that the Ashkenazim are genetically related to the Sefaradim and MiraHim backto 100 generations or so – long before the Khazars entered the stage of human history. Genetically, Jews are all one people. So the genetics test fails to prove the Ashkenazi-Khazar link.

    Finally there is the issue of cultural anthropology, history and customs. Here we hit a dead end. There is not enough knowledge of Khazar customs to say one way or another if there is or is not a tie.

    So on two decisive elements of proof, the assertion fails, and on the third, there is not enough data to prove anything.

    The claim falls. It is nothing more than bullshit repeated endlessly by Jew-haters round the world, particularly Arabs.

    There are some Jews descended from Khazars, however. One very famous one is Isaac Asimov.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Is Israel escalating against the Palestinians to test Barack Obama’s loyalty to Israel in advance of his becoming President? If that is the case, I would urge that the United States immediately sever diplomatic relations with Israel. I know it’s a strong stance but think about it, folks. For the last 8 years we have been loyal subjects to the Saudi Royal Family. Now that habibi Bush is leaving office, does it behoove Israel to start up a storm to put the incoming President into a corner?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Silas,

    Are not Palestinians treated as “bastard” Arab children by fellow Muslims and Arabs? Aren’t the Palestinians victims of their own Arab world? It seems to me that if Israelis and Palestinians stopped and took one long, deep breath they would realize they they have so much more in common than not.

    I know that very well. I’m not looking to see a massacre of Arabs here by Jews and that is what I fear if HizbAllah starts to bombard us in the north, and particularly if they hit Tel Aviv.

    But the Arabs (and their enablers, both Jewish and non-Jewish) are so busy screaming that Jews are the new Nazis that nobody is willing to sit down and get an intelligent solution. The Arabs are victims of their own bloodthirstiness.

    Many Jews are chained to the past by looking at the Talmud, which is primarily a standard operations manual for survival in exile. Maybe you’ve noticed – almost half the Jews on the planet live in the Jewish homeland. We do not need a survival manual for exile anymore.

    And you are right. America should stay the hell out of this conflict. There is no reason at all that Americans should die here.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Baritone,

    after 1,700 years of you stinking goyim trying to murder us off, NONE OF YOU, NOT A DAMNED ONE OF YOU, HAS ANY RIGHT TO JUDGE US!

    Just reminding you….

  • Jack D

    Ruvy’s rants make him the poster boy for anti-semitism.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Ruvy,

    You may believe you are on the high ground. That is your fantasy. It is in part that self-righteousness and presumption that places you and your kindred on what is not high, but shaky ground. You thumb your nose at the rest of the world at your peril.

    B

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    I don’t want to add fuel to the fire but I really admire Ruvy’s tenacity when it comes to his people and faith. I am Unitarian and believe that inherent in every belief system is some truth. I don’t agree with all of them but that doesn’t discount their value among their respective believers. Insofar as “God” is concerned, I believe there is a higher power but that should not discount the principles of non-believers. We all have free will in that regard. Self-righteousness is not unique to Judaism. It is manifest in Christianity and Islam as well. Again, I ask, why haven’t Palestinians and Israelis come to realize that they are on the same side of the fence when it comes to the treatment they get at the hands of their fellow Middle Easterners?

    Ruvy is coming at this from the Israeli or Hebrew perspective as a people without a nation. All too often we forget that there were other nations which suffered the same way. Poland, for instance, was erased from the map and partitioned three times. Armenians were slaughtered at the hands of Turks and yet because of National Security, the United States government is too cowardly too call Turkey on the Armenian genocide. How many Native American nations have been reduced to rubble thanks to the greed and avarice of European settlers? And now we have the tragedy that is Darfur. There’s no doubt that Israel has suffered more than other nations in the whole scheme of things but that should not discount any other nation’s suffering. Ruvy, we may not agree on this point but I think overall Palestinians are getting the short end of the stick with the exception of a handful who are making money and hanging on to a false sense of power.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Silas,

    What you are talking about is human history. People have been slaughtering people literally for thousands of years. The various acts of mass murder and genocide you cite above are simply some of the most recent examples. I don’t diminish the horror of the Nazi holocaust, or the Soviet, Chinese or Cambodian pogroms. The point being that Jews are not unique.

    We want to believe that we have arrived to a point in our development wherein we have risen above such horrific tragedies. Ruvy and others similarly radical – be they Jews, Muslims, Christians, Communists, etc. – are so single minded, so totally and unequivocally biased, that they can’t conceive of any point of view but their own. Their prejudice is so complete, their belief in the rightness of their cause and the superiority of their particular group whatever that may be, it sets the stage for further acts of mass murder and genocide, all in the name of goodness and right, and, of course, god – good ole god.

    B

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Jack’s rants make him a poster boy for American ignorance about the world.

  • zingzing

    ruvy: “after 1,700 years of you stinking goyim trying to murder us off, NONE OF YOU, NOT A DAMNED ONE OF YOU, HAS ANY RIGHT TO JUDGE US!”

    while you obviously do… like anyone here took part in any of that. we have a right to judge you, ruvy. you’re so far gone into your own reality that you couldn’t even recognize your own hypocrisy if it was wrapped around your leg and giving you a blowjob. not to be too crass about it. but you already went there.

  • zingzing

    just to make it clear, by “we have a right to judge you, ruvy,” i mean ruvy. not jews. i’m not going to pretend that the jews haven’t gone through some shit over the past couple thousand years…

    but ruvy, and i’ve said this before, you’re part of the problem. or at least your attitude is. if “you stinking goyim” is in your vocabulary, i can’t imagine what you have to say about the arabs.

    you, and the state of israel at the moment, need to take a big valium. put it in your mouth and swallow.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    I get your point, Baritone, and I don’t dispute most of what you say. Not to sound like a broken record but it all comes down to education. If children were given a proper education including the freedom to think freely and debate perhaps there would be less conflict in this world based in the name of religion. Insofar as Israel and the Palestinians are concerned, again I see little difference in the foundation of their respective struggles. Their so-called Arab cousins treat them with the same disdain as they treat Jews. To me the Palestinian people have been brainwashed into believing that the root of all their misery comes out of Tel Aviv.

    I once spoke of how my grandmother believed that Ethiopia should have been home to a new Israeli state. Many disagree. I haven’t made up my mind. What I do wonder, however, is why Judaic and Christian Bible literalists haven’t claimed Armenia as the Promised Land. If one were to believe the story of Noah, then one could reasonably conclude that the mountain upon which the ark rested after the receding waters was host to the new Promised Land. Mount Ararat was a part of Armenia and in their hearts the Armenians know that Turkey usurped the old mountain and should return it to Hayastan. Faithful Armenians believe to this day that they are direct descendants of Noah. If one interprets the Bible verbatim, the Armenians are quite correct.

    Today’s conflict in Israel is a setup in my mind. The Israeli government seems to be quite concerned about the incoming Obama Administration and they are using this interim period to propagate another round of senseless violence. If that is the case I hardly see how any intelligent diplomat could refute the notion that sitting members of the Israeli government are guilty of war crimes. The United States has no business intruding its policies on any government in the Middle East and our government would best serve OUR citizenry by concentrating on what is happening on the domestic front. We should do what George H.W. Bush should have done the night George W. was conceived… WE SHOULD PULL OUT.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Silas,

    Just a few friendly corrections for you to ponder.

    Ruvy is coming at this from the Israeli or Hebrew perspective as a people without a nation driven out of their homeland who have successfully reclaimed it.

    Poland, for instance, was partitioned three times and erased from the map for a century and a half.

    Armenians were slaughtered at the hands of Turks and yet because of National Security, the United States government, as well as the government of Israel, is too cowardly too call Turkey on the Armenian genocide.

    Ruvy, we may not evidently agree on this point; but I think overall, Palestinians Arabs in the Land of Israel are getting the short end of the stick with the exception of a handful who are making stealing money, sharing it with Israeli politicians, and hanging on to a false sense of power.

    There’s no doubt It is doubtful that Israel has suffered more than other nations in the whole scheme of things but that should not discount any other nation’s suffering no nation has suffered so consistently attempts to exterminate it over 2,500 years.

    History has been nice to few nations over time. Most have been eliminated. But we Children of Israel have beaten History so far, and pray for the strength to continue to do so. Consider the meaning of rthe name “Israel”, Silas. You know where to look it up in Genesis.

    Something else for you to ponder.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Gotta fix this one:

    There’s no doubt It is doubtful that Israel has suffered more than other nations in the whole scheme of things but that should not discount any other nation’s suffering no nation has suffered so consistently attempts to exterminate it over 2,500 years.

  • zingzing

    fun with html and ruvy! and changing someone’s words to read like they came from a paranoid man in a cheap shit room!

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    zing,

    i can’t imagine what you have to say about the arabs.

    Perhaps we should concentrate on what I HAVE said to Arabs instead of your imaginings…. This particular Arab is a journalist who lives in Dura, not far from Be-El (and not that far from me), and who divides his time calling Jews Nazis and condemning the Talmud as racist. He has not deigned to answer me.

    Reproduced for you specially, then, zing.

    I am a Jewish nationalist. But I also come from a nation where I lived as a minority, and I know that living in a minority status anywhere is onerous and burdensome – even absent discrimination or persecution. The majority culture is not yours, your identity with the country somewhat tenuous, you do not feel happy saluting the flag or singing the national anthem, etc. etc. This was somewhat true in my case in the States, but I can see where any Arab living in Israel might feel the same way, only a lot more strongly. I have not forgotten this fact. I’ll get back to it.

    You will not hear me say, “kick out the Arabs from their homes here”. I know what it is to be homeless; forcing homelessness on anyone is wrong. If someone wants to rebel against the country, that is one thing; but a man working at his business, raising his family, sending his kids to school? Or, if he is between jobs, looking for work? No, this is a man who is a decent fellow, a man who contributes to society. If his wife works, the same applies to her. That’s the first point.

    The second is that the economic discrimination against Arabs in Israel – all of it from the Mediterranean to the Jordan – must end. This is particularly true in the way wages are paid. An Arab must receive the same wages as an any other resident of the Land of Israel. Finally, the law must be applied equally. Unequal application of the law creates crime and is a burden on the justice system, and in addition, it creates a situation where people organize crime to make a living, and they refuse to respect the police or the law.

    Now let’s look harder at the issue of minority status. At this point, it is unrealistic to ask a young Arab living in Israel to serve in the Army the way we ask young Jew to. We’d be sending him off to kill other Arabs. But why shouldn’t Arabs in Judea, Samaria and Gaza vote? Why should there not be constituencies for a certain number of seats in the national parliament, with an equal number elected as they are now from proportional representation? That is how the Germans elect the lower house of their parliament. What is wrong with that?

    Well, one thing that could be viewed as wrong is that the Arabs will be a minority here in this country. And more to the point, any peace settlement I envision does not allow for the return of refugees in neighboring countries. At least not yet. So, Arabs here would feel themselves burdened saluting the Shield of David, and they certainly would not wish to sing Hatiqva, the national anthem. That reflects a Jewish dream, not their dream, whatever that dream is.

    A better solution can be found.

    There is an Arab state that has a majority of Arabs from this country in it. Right now that country is called Jordan. It was severed illegally from the Palestine Mandate and Jewish settlement there was banned, even though it remained as part of the Palestine Mandate. But that is history, and not only is it useless to cry over spilt milk, it is impossible to unspill it. But one can put the milk bottle to good use. The Kingdom of Jordan is an Arab country, and it has an Arab culture, one not dissimilar to the one here. Arab residents of Gaza, Judea and Samaria can choose to be citizens of the Kingdom of Jordan while retaining residence in the Land of Israel. Thus they do business here, live here raise their children here, go to school here, and vote for local councils here – but they participate in Jordanian politics via delegates elected to the parliament in Amman, have the opportunity to join governing cabinets, join professional associations in either Israel or Jordan – or both, carry Jordanian passports and have a special delegation in the Israel’s parliament, and a cabinet seat devoted to their affairs and needs in the Israeli government.

    They do not have to feel alienated from their brethren across the Jordan – indeed many do have brethren and family across the Jordan, and they do not have to feel that they are bound to participate in a Jewish vision of the world, when it is not, in reality, their own. The taxes they pay would be divided between the local councils here, and the Jordanian government.

    Under such a solution, Arab refugees from what was Mandate Palestine can be readmitted to the country, either in Judea or Samaria, or in Jordan, to begin new and better lives. What is now known as the United Palestine Appeal Inc., for example, can be mobilized for the task of seeing to it that all Arabs who are now refugees get to build lives of prosperity and dignity and see their children and grandchildren enjoy the blessings of peace.

    Gaza, which is now merely an open air prison and slum (but a prosperous one for the Arab world) can be emptied out bit by bit. Its prosperity as a vegetable basket, if not for Europe, then for the Middle East can be restored.

    There is money to do this. I have seen (photos of) some of the hotels in the Gulf, and if money can be found to build such fantasy palaces, money can be found to build better lives for Arabs at the western end of Asia..

    Hopefully, I’ve not taken up too much of your time with this missive.

    Peace and blessings from a cold mountain-top in Samaria,

    Reuven.”

    I wrote a comment to the post he put on the blog this appeared on, directed at him, but again, he did not answer. I’ll reproduce it for you here. His post had basically to do with how he regarded Jews who live in Judea and Samaria, concentrating on how he feels our Talmud discriminates against him and others.

    Khalid,

    I’m answering you as a Jew but more importantly, I’m answering you as a Child of Israel. There is a difference, an important one, and a little bit later, I’ll explain why.

    We are nearly neighbors, you and I. We could also be friends. I hold no ill will against you. I’m an iconoclast – I knock down false idols of hypocrisy – and for many years I wanted nothing to do with Judaism because of the hypocrisy I saw in it.

    At the present moment, you are extremely angry because, among other things, you see your own people, fighters for freedom, being killed by an enemy – the armed forces of Israel. I’m not throwing a shoe at you. But by the same token, I’m painfully aware of the need for this action – not because Hamas is more violent than the PLO – but because Hamas has developed a strategy of kill first and loot later, and because they have linked up militarily with HizbAllah – which means that we are dealing with the cat’s paw of the new Persian Empire. They are following their version of Sharia and the Haditha, Khalid, and whatever they do, they will not conclude peace in what they view as dar el-Harb. You know this as well as I do.

    From my point of view, the problem is not that the Israeli régime seeks to eliminate a political force that they nurtured in the first place – the problem is that they wish to replace it with a corrupt Arab terror regime that believes in loot first, kill later. That is what the Oslo Accords are all about, and what the “Saudi” “peace plan” is – loot first, kill later.

    The PLO and the “Saudi” régime will not conclude a real peace in what they view as dar el-Harb either. Instead, they prefer to sell greedy Israeli politicians the rope that they will use to hang them; thus there was a casino in Jericho, and plans were made for one in the Gaza Strip. Hamas upset the applecart, and took away the comfortable deals corrupt Israeli politicians had with the PLO. So the PLO wants to be rid of Hamas, and so do the Israeli politicians – and so do the masters in America and Europe the Israeli politicians serve and bow to, like a pagan bows to an idol.

    Khalid, you have taken much time to talk about Judaism as you understand it. There are a few things you do not understand.

    1. The proper name is the Religion of the Children of Israel, and Jews are a mere part of the Children of Israel. They are not the entirety.

    2. The Talmud, written mostly in Babylon, is a survival manual for exile. The exile is coming to an end. We’re in the process of coming home.

    3. There will be paradigm changes in how Jews are forced to view themselves in all this. One paradigm change will be in how Jews view the Children of Kedar and Nevayot – the Children of Ishmael. In other words, Arabs.

    The reason I see this and Daniella Weiss and others in the nationalist camp may have trouble seeing this is that I’m a bit ahead on the learning curve. I concentrate my study not on the Talmud, but on the Hebrew Bible including the prophetic books. My outlook is an outrider of the paradigm changes I’m talking about. What you quote looks behind to the past and not ahead to the future.

    I will not argue with you if you wish to state that the present Israeli régime is corrupt, venal and discriminatory against Arabs. And I further suggest to you that the PLO is more corrupt, more venal and more discriminatory – against Christian Arabs.

    In addition, if you wish to say that it is the fault of the Israelis that you and others have had to suffer under the PLO, I certainly will not argue with you. I remember how Arafat’s thugs ousted local Arabs who had built a structure of “resistance” that could evolve into a local and popular régime.

    So, one logical solution to all of this is to ditch the Arab thugs so you can be free of them. On our side, we have to ditch the Israeli thugs – so we can be free of them.

    Think about it, and look at my proposals in a positive light, rather than a negative one.

    The road to peace has many stones in it. If you help me, then perhaps together, we can move them.

    I wish you a pleasant evening,
    Ruvy

    There it is, zing – just for you.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    And when you are done reading that comment, zing, I suggest you read this one on this thread, comment #63.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I received this article in an e-mail from a friend living in Efrat, Ya’akov. Note what he has to say, and then go to the link and read this article in Ynetnews by Elyakim haEtzni.

    To see this in ynetnews is astonishing. This is the online site of Yediot Ahronot, the newspaper with the largest circulation in Israel. Usually, their notion of “balance” involves giving editorial space to a stereotypical “right wing-nut” who comes off like Atila the Hun. The very fact that they gave editorial space to someone as articulate as Elyakim Haetzni says a great deal.

    Ya’akov

    The price of disengagement

    From the article:

    There’s also consensus against taking over the Strip. The Left says it because the mere mention of “occupation” causes anxiety among its ranks, while the Right says it because it knows Israel would hand over Gaza to Fatah, and this is no reason to send our soldiers into battle.

    Therefore, why did we embark on the ground incursion? To take over launching sites? And how long will we hold on to them? The truth is that the objective is to kill so many of them so that they “learn the lesson.” In the failed Vietnam War they referred to it as “body count.” However, the other side can also kill, and how many of our own victims compared to their victims will count as “victory?” The answer is that not even one Israeli soldier is worth it.

    …….

    When the northern section of the Strip was home to the Israeli communities of Nissanit, Elei Sinai, and Dugit, and when Netzarim separated Gaza from the refugee camps, and when Gush Katif was the home front of the Philadelphi Route, there were no rockets being fired at Ashdod and there were not Hizbullah-style “nature reserves” in the Strip.

    Retrospectively, it’s already clear: The settlements in Gaza safeguarded Beersheba and Gedera, and by defending them the IDF defended the entire south (using much fewer forces.)

    Now look at Judea and Samaria. There has been no second front there, and the IDF operates there as if it is a man in his own home; fortunately for Tel Aviv, there was no disengagement here. Meanwhile, the conclusion regarding the return of the Jews to their communities in Gaza is also clear, yet it cannot be stated in official media outlets as it is politically incorrect. Yet nonetheless, the time for it shall come.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Arutz Sheva, reporting on the BIG WHORE (Sarkozy) conferring with the Little Whore (Bashir Assad).

    Sarkozy Pressures Assad to Pressure Hamas to End Violence

    I almost spit my coffee on the computer screen when I read this from the article: Assad labeled Israel’s counter-terror operation as “criminal”, “barbaric” and “aggressive”.

    This is the incompetent son of the man who murdered off 20,000 Syrians using gas weapons a number of years ago.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    This came in to me as an e-mail from Aryeh Zelasko, who has a habit of noticing the threats and noticing the stuff that the idiots at the MSM either don’t see or don’t want to see.

    I’ve stated time after time that the worst enemy of Israel is the United States. You’ve all said I’m crazy. This article is my smoking gun.

    I warned you all that Obama did not like either Israel or the Jews. The mere fact that he does business with one as an advisor (Rahm Emanuel) does not change that perception, so far as I’m concerned. I’ve also repeated time after time that Israel would be better off without American support. It looks like I’m getting what I sought. Read and “enjoy”.

    U.S. Intelligence Official about Israel: “This is just the beginning” from the Northeast Intelligence Network

    From the article:

    U.S. Intelligence official “breaks silence” on Israel situation”

    31 December 2008: Northeast Intelligence Network director Doug Hagmann interviewed a highly-placed U.S. intelligence official late yesterday who not only confirmed rumors about escalated and more intensive Israeli military operations against the Muslim terrorists in Gaza, warned of the increasing probability of abandonment of Israel by the U.S. and other Western countries based on what he termed “malicious intelligence.”

    “Remember that term,” advised this well-placed intelligence official, “you’ll be hearing it again.”

    “This is just the beginning,” stated this intelligence official, who wished to remain anonymous. This official stated that the possibility for a much more protracted ground war is more likely today than at any other time in the past, adding that Israel is exercising her right to protect herself from her enemies in Gaza. But there is a catch, noted this official, and a big one at that: Israel could be about to lose the support of the United States.

    “I have every reason to believe, based on what I’ve seen at my level of [security] clearance especially over the last several years, that Israel will soon be completely on their own… or worse.” When asked what could be worse than losing the support of the United States, he stated: “when our administration provides more support to Arab countries [with] financial and military aid, undercutting Israel’s defense efforts all while pushing Israel to succumb to the pressure of unreasonable demands designed to end with their political annihilation as a nation.”

    According to this official, the U.S. has been slowly proceeding down this road. He cited the 2005 surrender of Gush Katif to the Palestinian Authority as one critical example of the slow dismantlement of Israel as a viable nation. “Despite critical intelligence outlining in every possible manner imaginable that this would be a disastrous move leading to the events we are seeing today, it was done anyway,” he stated.

    “We are seeing the very scenario play out today that was outlined in intelligence briefs three and four years ago. Knowing that, there is something very wrong with this picture,” he stated.

  • Jack D

    ##88 — January 5, 2009 @ 19:14PM — Jack D

    “Ruvy’s rants make him the poster boy for anti-semitism.”

    #92 — January 6, 2009 @ 02:59AM — Ruvy

    “Jack’s rants make him a poster boy for American ignorance about the world.”

    Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

    Some of what I know about the world is that a civilized state does not act as a bully and commit wanton aggression and killing of women and children. Criminals do it but that does not excuse civilized states from committing such senseless killing.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Personally I have nothing against the Jews but I have a lot of issues with Israeli politicians. But, then again, I have a lot of issues with Christian and Muslim politicians. Wait a minute. I have issues with all politicians. Hate the sin not the sinner. Hate the politicians not the religious.

    I’m worried about what Israel is doing in Gaza and I continue to believe this is less about Palestinians and more about testing Obama. If that proves to be the case then every Israeli official responsible should be tried for war crimes in Nuremberg. Whilst some may find that statement subconsciously anti-Semitic I assure you it is not. What it does is drive home the point to those Israeli officials who have used their victimization at the hands of the Nazis to their advantage as opposed to the welfare of their Nation.

    Right now we citizens of the U.S. are so preoccupied with the economy that we aren’t paying attention to Gaza. What we fail to realize is that our dependence upon various opposing factions in the Middle East bear a direct link to our economic fate.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Silas,

    Israeli politicians are scared shitless of Obama. Many of them know what is coming in the article I posted about the new openly Israel-hostile regime America will have.

    Those who think that they will have time to finish the campaign they think they are waging there are fooling themselves.

    The timing of this campaign was originally designed to allow

    1. the Labor and Kadima parties to benefit from looking like “peace” parties for their primaries and war parties before the elections;
    2. the IDF to help Mahmoud Abbas hold on to power in the PA and prevent Hamas from ousting him; and
    3. the Israeli government to take advantage of the lame duck status of George Bush.

    The idea was to have had the whole thing wrapped up before Obama took office with facts (American soldiers) on the ground at the Philadelphi crossing.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Jack,

    Israel has been run by criminals for quite some while now. America has too. And you were saying?

  • Jack D

    “Israel has been run by criminals for quite some while now. America has too. And you were saying?”

    I would agree with your statement.

    They all have violated Internationsl Law.

  • bliffle

    “Why the Hell Are We Allied with Israel?”

    I think the answer is that we look alike. We wear the same kind of clothes, live the same kind of lives in the same kind of houses, etc.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Really? I thought it was because our defense contractors and Wall Street depend on them.

  • Zedd

    When South Africa was still under apartheid it seemed incomprehensible that the SA government thought that a quelling of civil unrest was an indication of a sort of settlement or agreement between the two sides. While we were under siege living under the tyranny of the apartheid, blacks and Indians, Whites lived their lives relatively unaffected.

    I think its difficult to see why a cease fire wouldn’t make sense to Palestinians. Their condition even during a cease fire is an attack, a constant, day to day declaration of combat. Their low status and meager existence is unacceptable and to them is an ongoing attack. They don’t get to go to Cafes and resume anything after a cease fire takes place. They live as second class people in their own land. How, why, when anyone would ever be expected to be fine with that is baffling.

    It’s difficult for those in power to see themselves as oppressive, especially those who have been oppressed like the Hebrews. However this may be a weird manifestation of the stockholm syndrome.

    Just offering a different perspective.

  • http://nitpickingnightdragon.blogspot.com Mark Edward Manning

    Kenn, I’ll make this really simple for you:

    We are allied with Israel because it is the ONLY true democracy in the entire Middle East region.

    End of.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Mark,

    You’re a great guy and I appreciate all the kind things you say about Israel.

    But the bitter truth is that Israel is as much a democracy as Siberia is a tropical zone or Madonna a chaste and virginal nun….

    I don’t like saying that. It’s much easier and far more soothing to believe all the bullshit pumped out by the agit-prop machine of the People’s Republic of Tel Aviv, or if not them, then the oy-oy-oy let’s dance the hora religious Zionists.

    But the bitter truth, bitter as it is, is far preferable to the pretzel twisting lies of the of the People’s Republic of Tel Aviv, the “wink wink, don’t look but blink,” half-blindness of the religious Zionists, or the pathetic naïve Zionism of Jews overseas. I can’t criticize this last bunch. I was once part of it.

    Israel has the political culture of eastern Europe, of Poland in particular. This means that you are free – so long as you agree with the leader. Disagree and you are automatically a traitor. This is not an ideological attitude, but a cultural one. And the “disagree and you are a traitor” trait is found all across the political spectrum here, and is a trait endemic to tyrannies, not to democracies.

    Sorry, Mark.

    I’m really sorry to say that, but it is the truth.

  • http://nitpickingnightdragon.blogspot.com Mark Edward Manning

    Fair enough, Ruvy. Coming from you, that carries a lot of weight, so I won’t argue with you. You know much better than I. It proves that, contrary to how some perceive you here on BC, you can be practical and fair-minded in your criticism.

    Now then … if you think I’m such a great guy then perhaps you’ll refrain in future from lobbing an ad hominem at me as you once did regarding my old signature photo. I said nothing about it at the same, but for a while it caused me to feel very differently about you.

    Sorry, but it had to be said …

  • http://www.fontcraft.com/rod/ Dave Nalle

    We wear the same kind of clothes,

    So Bliffle, do you wear tight jeans and a silk shirt unbuttoned to your navel with a gold chain?

    Dave

  • Cindy D

    ROFLOL!

    Thanks Dave, my keyboard loves coffee.

  • Cindy D

    And it’s almost as good as wasabi, when it comes out of your nose.

  • Clavos

    @#114,

    Truth is, Mark, that old photo didn’t do you justice. The new one is a BIG improvement.

  • Les Slater

    I found a naïve, reactionary and fundamentally pro-Israeli article, ‘An inside story of how the US magnified Palestinian suffering” with an interesting take on U.S. involvement

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Les, I agree that the linked article is “naïve,” but I don’t see that it is either “reactionary” or “fundamentally pro-Israel;” indeed, it seems to be more or less fair and balanced in its naïve fashion, counting on a diplomatic process which seems to have little if any chance of either protecting Israel from the continuing rocket attacks and possibly worse in the future, or bringing peace and prosperity to Palestine. The Hamas

    charter states (Article 13) that “there is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavour.”

    I have seen no amelioration of this position. This appears to place a negotiated peace beyond the ability of even the best and brightest diplomats to secure — even a peace czar as the article suggests.

    Dan(Miller)

  • Les Slater

    Dan,

    It is implicit in the article that the author supports the right of Israel to exist. There can be no lasting solution while an Israeli regime occupies a land where the original peoples are disenfranchised.

    The only solution is a one-state solution where peoples can live as complete equals. A Jewish state is a complete negation of such. What is needed is a secular democratic Palestine.

    Neither Hamas nor Fatah are the way forward. The occupation, embargo and attacks by Israel should be unhesitantly condemned and a demand for their halt put forward in the strongest terms.

    Only when the jackboot of the Israel capitalist state is off the necks of not only the Palestinians but the Jewish workers, farmers and middle classes will the peoples of the region begin to have a chance to develop a leadership to bring not only peace but justice.

    Les

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Les, re the last paragraph in your Comment #121 — you may of course be correct. However, I fear that these things will not happen until after the second, third and forth comings, the end of the next ice age, and the re-election of Jimmy Carter. In the meantime, some other means will have to be sought to make the situation tolerable.

    Dan(Miller)

  • Les Slater

    “…I fear that these things will not happen until after the second, third and forth comings, the end of the next ice age…”

    Similar to what many thought about apartheid South Africa. It was the persistent putting forward the idea of a non-racial South Africa that finally won the day. The ‘Freedom Charter’ of the ANC was one that all progressive forces could unite around.

  • bliffle

    “Why the Hell Are We Allied with Israel?”

    Well there’s one good strategic reason. If we abandoned Israel, then (probably) Big War would break out in the ME, somebody would start throwing nukes and the Russians and/or the Chinese would come in on the side of the non-israels with Big Nukes of their own, Israel would be obliterated, and then the combined forces of Russia, China and the ME would be arrayed against the US and the west. They’d be armed, trained, experienced and ready for global war.

    So, by putting up with these petty offenses in Gaza we can delay that day.

  • Jack D

    #120 — January 11, 2009 @ 14:05PM — Dan(Miller)

    “The Hamas charter states (Article 13) that “there is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavor.”

    One reason that was said is because every time there were initiatives, proposals and international conferences, Israel kept confiscating more and more Palestinian land and destroying more Palestinian crops.

    Jihad started long after the occupation began in 1967. Hamas was not formed until 1988 in response to the 20-year Israeli occupation.

    Many Palestinians have been fooled too many times to trust Israeli politicians.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Jack D,

    Whatever the genesis of Hamas Article 13 may be, it appears to remain a, if not the, primary basis for Hamas’ policy against a peaceful settlement with Israel. SO, it seems likely that the beatings will continue until morale improves.

    Dan(Miller)

  • Zedd

    Dan Miller

    What would a peaceful settlement with Israel look like?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Jihad started long after the occupation began in 1967. Hamas was not formed until 1988 in response to the 20-year Israeli occupation.

    Jack, maybe you can slide a dumb crack like that past the folks at BC who don’t know history, but given that I personally know refugees from the Arab massacre of Jews in Hebron in 1929, you’ll have trouble sliding that shit past me. Google up “Amin el-Husseini” and “Nazi” together, and see the interesting links you find between the Nazis and the Arabs in the Land of Israel, and learn who it really was who insisted that Jews get exterminated in Europe.

    Also, you will learn where that pig from Gaza, Amin el-Husseini got his ideas and what they have in common with Hamas today.

    For all the rest of you, a bit of what Hamas thinks of you and me – Hamas, in it own words.

    Enjoy!

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Now then … if you think I’m such a great guy then perhaps you’ll refrain in future from lobbing an ad hominem at me as you once did regarding my old signature photo. I said nothing about it at the same, but for a while it caused me to feel very differently about you.

    I’m truly sorry that what I said hurt your feelings so. That was not my intent. Please forgive me.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Zedd,

    It could take any number of forms, from the obliteration of Israel to the death of all Palestinians. I would not like to see either, although both seem possible at the moment.

    Many large groups seems to have their share of maniacal jerks, but Hamas seems to me to have more than its share. I really do think (perhaps idealistically, but probably not) that were the Palestinians to stop lobbing rockets and suicide bombers, etc. at Israel, to stop bringing rockets and other offensive weapons into the territory, and to devote their efforts to creating (rather than attempting to destroy) a viable economy, a far greater measure of peace than can otherwise be hoped for realistically would break out. It might also help were Egypt, Jordan and some other neighbors to accept Palestinian refugees and encourage them to prosper.

    Israel is not going to back down until there are reasonable assurances that her people can live in peace. At least I hope she won’t. It is probably a cliche, but I think there is a lot of merit to the notion that there will not be peace until the Palestinians and various other folks decide that they love themselves and their children more than they hate others.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    This sort of stuff does not encourage a peaceful resolution:

    “As soon as the Iranians heard about the Egyptian cease-fire initiative, they dispatched the two officials to Damascus on an urgent mission to warn the Palestinians against accepting it,” the Egyptian government official told the Post.

    “The Iranians threatened to stop weapons supplies and funding to the Palestinian factions if they agreed to a cease-fire with Israel. The Iranians want to fight Israel and the US indirectly. They are doing this through Hamas in Palestine and Hizbullah in Lebanon. . . .

    The Egyptian official accused Iran of “encouraging” Hamas to continue firing rockets at Israel with the hope that this would trigger a war that would divert attention from Iran’s nuclear plans.

    “This conflict serves the interests of the Iranians,” he said. “They are satisfied because the violence in the Gaza Strip has diverted attention from their nuclear ambitions. The Iranians are also hoping to use the Palestinian issue as a ‘powerful card’ in future talks with the Americans. (emphasis added)

    Of course, if Hamas wanted peace, the Iranian threat to cease supplying weapons to use against Israel in the event of a cease fire would not be a very effective one.

    Dan(Miller)

  • Zedd

    Dan (M),

    Please read #111.

    I think we are missing that very point in all of our discussions on these boards (ref #111). It’s sorta easy to miss because we assume that Palestine is a country that is only lacking in resources because of bad organization. It is a ghetto or “Bantustan”(google it). It is a place where the “others” have been moved to, to keep them out of the way, so that good Jews can resume their happy guilt free life, in the homeland of the Palestinians.

    I would ask, why that is okay and why their humanity doesn’t seem to be quite so evident and why their immense anger and frustration seems to be confounding.

    Were we Americans moved to a small area, and told what our country would then be, then demonized for fighting back and not accepting a cease fire agreement, while we were still relegated to our dunce seat of a “country”, living under curfews and manned boarders, it would be laughably unacceptable.

    What am I missing?…. Well other than the fact that they are not European (therefore innately humane and inherently worthy of all of OUR compassion).

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Zedd, OK I re-read your post #111. There have been enough posts on this and on related threads about the histories of Palestine and Israel that I see no need to regurgitate them here. I claim no expertise on those subjects, and think it just fine for those who do to continue to have at it, for as long as they wish.

    In the meantime, the conflict will continue. Those who desire peace will look for ways to achieve it, and those who don’t (like Hamas and Iran, see my comment #131) won’t. I find it very difficult to accept that the Palestinians are better off now than they would be were they to recognize that they alone can’t win, and that their “allies” such as Iran are the sort of friends whom it would be better to have as enemies.

    While enervating, hatred is rarely a useful emotion.

    Dan(Miller)

  • Zedd

    Dan (M),

    The South African struggle was supported by Gaddafi, Castro and a lot of those who the US considered to be Boogie Men. The US did not support our struggle. It was a just resistance. The US wanted us to wait and behave first. Much like you are suggesting. We were the victims. The US couldn’t see our humanity and therefore was not appalled by our situation. Off course now everyone band wagons and tisks tisks at the audacity of apartheid.

    I am not sure why you feel that the Palestinians should not accept the support of Iran. Iran supports them. We don’t. It’s their horror, their lives, their unfulfilled expectations, their loss of a future. Being liked by the US or Europeans is neither here or there.

    Europeans decided that they should loose their land to the Jews.

    Who are are good guys in this? Who’s support should they accept?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I am not sure why you feel that the Palestinians should not accept the support of Iran……Europeans decided that they should lose their land to the Jews.

    BULLSHIT! THE ARABS WANTED US JUST AS DEAD AS THE NAZIS DID, AND WANTED US JUST AS GONE AS THE REMAINING EUROPEANS!

    The leader of these Arabs for two decades, Amin el-Husseini, the man who inspired the Arab pogrom of Hebron in 1929, the man who mentored Yasir Arafat, openly sided with Hitler, and pressured him to murder Jews off in Europe instead of deporting them here for murder. The name el-Husseini gave Hitler, “Abu Amar”, was the name taken by Arafat himself to indicate he would finish what Hitler started – the slaughter of the Jews. El-FataH and the PLO are just secular versions of Hamas, which calls for the extermination of Jews daily, and which went to war against us. Hamas is just the local office of the Moslem Brotherhood, which is where the Gazan pig, el-Husseini, got his ideas in the first place. Today, these Arab bastards – not to mention the Persian prick in Tehran – feed off Nazi ideology like a baby sucks at its mother’s tit.

    So much for what you know, Zedd.

  • bliffle

    “So Bliffle, do you wear tight jeans and a silk shirt unbuttoned to your navel with a gold chain?”

    Trolling, Dave?

  • Clavos

    Oh, stoooop, you two!!

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet

    Great that’ll be stuck in my head the rest of the day…

  • Jacky Snacky

    Fuck Israel – fuck that whole part of the world in fact. We need to become a self sustaining society again, defend our own borders and let the morons in the middle east kill each other over religion – eventually when they’ve killed each other enough a younger generation will realize there are no magic men in the sky to fight for and about anymore and this whole time this has a ll been about land, resources and control. There are no “chosen people” and the fact that Israel claims to be is as evil to me as Hitler claiming white superiority. Any group that thinks they have carte blanche to rule anything by divine rite are dangerous fanatics even if it is all just a front for a fuel struggle. All you morons can take sides like you think it’s Israel or Saudi Arabia’s fault what is happening to us. We are being conditioned with fear to look everywhere but at the most terrifying problems that lie in our own weakness and shattered infrastructure – and look where it got us. Screwed hard by our own financial institutions – I hate to say it but Bernie Madoff did a lot more damage to the economy than 9-11 did. We have become a blind, fat, weak lot of sheep happy to be led to slaughter as long as there is a Taco Bell and a K-Mart on the way. We don’t make/manufacture anything anymore and we certainly don’t contribute to the rest of the world as much as we live off it’s cheap labor. Our country is so screwed up that as a nation we all just acted as if we were college kids on Spring break in Vegas for the first time with our very first credit card for the last 8 years while we were at WAR! We didn’t pay attention to what was going on hear because we were too caught up in what we “needed” to do Wake the fuck up people – we all got hit with a bait and switch! – fuck the middle east – fix your own side of the street before worrying about them.

  • Michael S

    Israel is not the only democracy in the middleeast.You forgot to mention Lebanon which is also a democracy under siege from arab extremists.Israel has come to the defense of Lebanon on several occassions.

  • http://edge-of-madness.com/default.aspx Ghost Rider

    I know that I lived in America for most of my life. I was in the US Army for 7 years and lived a lot of that time in Europe. I have no idea ‘why’ we the USA back Israel all the time… However, this article really helped me to understand a lot! Crooked politicians and Greed is what make the world a bad place!

    I am a strong believer of building up our country from the inside out. Like Hitler did if you’ll excuse my analogy. Fix the economy, work on border issues, fix our roads, and build up our military personnel.

    But hey! Who the heck am I……….. “M” PA/USA

  • ab

    READ GENISIS CHAPTER 12 THATS ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW

  • Danny

    I do have quite an opinion about the Israel-US relations, but I feel like all I had to say was pretty already discussed.

    So here’s another that wasn’t mentioned, and I find very important:
    Obviously it is not an equel alliance, and honestly – it would never be one, but let’s not forget how the US gets a lot of its military information.
    Israel’s intelligence corps is one of the strongest intelligence corps in the whole entire world (not to mention, the IDF is one of the strongest armys in the middle east, if not THE strongest).
    What I’m saying is that military wise – having Israel as your ally is a smart thing.

  • Kenn Jacobine

    But Danny don’t we need Israel’s defense force precisely because we are allied with her? In other words, if we didn’t “stand by” Israel we wouldn’t have so many folks over there that hate us and thus no need to further spy on them.

  • John Wilson

    Also, Israeli politics is getting more and more superstitious as the mystics start to take over. Now the supestitious hardcore insists that only they can decide who is eligible to be a ‘jew’ and thus a full citizen of Israel.

  • arabmuslim

    There is no democracy in Israel as a state is illegitimate and illegal and not recognized
    Evidence of this if anyone wanted to write a comment in the Israeli websites
    Does not allow him or be there are many obstacles to prevent him from writing a comment The reasons for Arab-Israeli conflict is the occupation of Palestine in 1948.
    Palestine Arab Islamic state like the rest of the Arab and Islamic states surrounding
    Them. Means that there are Jews and Zionists in Palestine a big mistake, because this entity
    Zionist is not consistent with the surrounding area (such as language, customs, traditions and religion)
    The only solution to end the Arab-Israeli conflict is the expulsion of Jews from Palestine
    All of Palestine. The Jewish people will not rest and will not feel comfortable and stability
    But if it gets out of Palestine and the Middle East completely. If people continue to
    Jews in Palestine and the Middle East, the death and destruction will continue.
    Palestine Arab Islamic state and will remain

  • j.a.

    I think US is allied it israel in order to get another 9/11

  • zionistkiller

    More like America is an unwilling ally. America is a thrall to israel, and as soon as we can find a way to be free of Zionist control of our media and currency through the world bank and FED, we are coming for you. You have existed as invaders in Palestine by way of the illegal Balfour Agreement, and the only reason America is your “ally” is because we are being strong armed into it. Once folks discover that 9/11 was Mossad, Israel will be dust and a memory only.

  • zionistkiller

    You folks arguing about Germany, Hitler, Europe, Iran etc, who’s help should the Palestinians except, etc. No matter what mask it wears, it has always been the same ideology behind all of it, ZIONISM. The Holocaust, Pearl Harbor, and 9/11 all have the same thing in common. The SAME EXACT TACTIC…to create a galvanizing crisis/tragedy in order to generate support for the Zionist cause. They all were intentionally fabricated events orchestrated by Zionists through their manipulation of national currencies and propaganda (the value of propaganda was discovered truly in WW2) to achieve this one and the same goal.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    A certain chap who relieved the boredom by writing a book after he got thrown in jail in the 1920s had similar arguments. They were bollocks then, and it’s bollocks now.

    Unless you can produce some actual Zionists (live ones who can speak for themselves, rather than the dead ones you seem to prefer) to support your case, it’s just the same wild conspiracy theory we’ve heard a million times before.

  • Helene

    Complicated stuff. Maybe the short answer is that they are the least insane in that region of the world.

  • ron helton

    We have no treaties with Israel.
    How can they be an ally?

    They have spied on us, stolen state secrets from us, killed our citizens.

    No, I have seen the face of the enemy and it is Israel.

    Rescind the Resolution of 1948 that established that plague upon mankind.

    Stop all foreign aid now!!!!!