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Why Did Trayvon Martin Die?

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I have been following the story datelined Sanford, Florida of the killing of the 17 year old teenager, Trayvon Martin by a neighborhood security block watcher, George Zimmerman. Here’s what we know at this point. Martin was walking through his father’s Sanford neighborhood after buying a bag of Skittles and some iced tea at a store.  Zimmerman, in his SUV, allegedly observed Martin walking in the neighborhood, and reported to a police dispatcher that Martin was acting suspicious, looking at homes and looked like he was on drugs (Suspicious Walking While Black; SWWB). Zimmerman then said, “These guys always get away”. The dispatcher asked Zimmerman if he was following Martin and Zimmerman responded, “Yes.” The dispatcher told Zimmerman not to follow Martin, let the police handle it.

At this point only Zimmerman and Martin know what actually happened and Martin is now dead. We do know Zimmerman left his vehicle and apparently, there was a physical confrontation between the two. People in their homes called 911 and reported they were hearing loud voices and someone yelling for help. The voices could be heard on the 911 tapes and a single gunshot could also be heard. Zimmerman has stated he shot Martin in self defense because he felt threatened and feared for his life. The state of Florida has a law called Stand Your Ground, which allows individuals to defend themselves, if they feel their lives are in danger.

This incident has exploded nationwide because no legal action has been taken against Zimmerman. The Sanford police are saying there was no legal action they could take because they couldn’t refute Zimmerman’s self-defense claim. Martin’s family and other people are very upset that Zimmerman hasn’t been arrested, because his explanation of the event just doesn’t make sense.

I have spent over 30 years in law enforcement and have to agree; the Sanford police should have conducted an immediate investigation into Zimmerman’s actions and presented the case to the attorney’s office. The police department is now being forced to conduct a thorough investigation of the killing of Martin. The killing occurred on February 26, 2012 and if there hadn’t been an uproar from the Martin family and others, I believe the Sanford police department would have just closed this case with a judgment of justifiable homicide.

It’s sad that in 2012 we still have incidences of racism, racial profiling and an appearance of a lack of value for the life of a black teenager, both by Zimmerman and the Sanford Police department. What jumps out at me is a question: if Zimmerman had been black and Martin white, with all of the facts being the same, would Martin be in jail? I think he would.

Some people have a problem with the so-called race card being played. In my opinion, this is because the issue of race is very difficult for people, the media, politicians and academia to discuss adequately. This country still has a problem with racial issues and the race card should be played if it is a factor in issues pertaining to our life. We can’t be afraid to tackle sensitive subject matters such as these because it has the potential to destroy our society.

Zimmerman reminds me of some security guards who can’t qualify as sworn police officers, either due to lack of experience, education or prior law enforcement contacts. Zimmerman was arrested in 2005 on suspicion of battery against a law enforcement officer. Although the charge was eventually dropped, it probably killed his chance of becoming an official police officer. Law enforcement officers would call these people wannabes, who look for any way to show they are or can be just as proficient in law enforcement as an actual police officer.

Zimmerman’s actions, in my opinion, are those of an individual with an ax to grind; he was going to prove he was as good at police work as any police officer. It didn’t matter that the dispatcher told him to not follow Martin and he said, “Okay.” He obviously left his vehicle and confronted Martin. He wouldn’t have felt that he feared for his life if he had just listened to the dispatcher, stopped his surveillance and stayed in his SUV. His comment of “these guys always get away” shows a predisposed negative attitude towards Martin, bordering on racism. Was his attitude… ‘this guy is not going to get away from me’? As a neighborhood watch guard, Zimmerman is prohibited from carrying a gun. Their instructions are to watch and report to the police, not to be a policeman and make an arrest!

Martin was just walking through the neighborhood going to his father’s home. No neighbor had called to report him. Zimmerman reported Martin looked suspicious because he wore a hooded sweater and was looking at homes. Also, Zimmerman reported Martin was carrying something; as it turned out, he was: a container of tea and a bag of Skittles. These are the facts that resulted in Martin’s death. If Martin had been white, he would still be alive. Martin died because of SWWB.

Zimmerman has stated it was his voice yelling for help. That is in question because Martin’s mother says: “the voice was that of [her] son”. It is hard for me to believe Zimmerman feared for his life and had to shoot Martin, because Zimmerman is not only 100 pounds heavier but also had a gun and Martin only had Skittles. Why would he have to yell for help?

Another question: why was Zimmerman allowed to carry a gun if he was arrested in 2005 for assault?

I hope Martin and his family receive the justice they deserve and that this case will serve as a barometer to prevent this type of thing from reoccuring.

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About Donald W Tucker

  • http://2012Tax.org Steve

    Would like to hear the other side of the story as it makes no sense that someone would shoot a kid without cause. Has to be a reason Zimmerman thought he needed to fire his gun.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Steve –

    If you took the time to do a little research, you’d find out why.

    1. Zimmerman called the police to report Martin’s “suspicious” behavior, which he described as “just walking around looking about.” Zimmerman was in his car when he saw Martin walking on the street. He called the police and said: “There’s a real suspicious guy. This guy looks like he’s up to no good, on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around looking about… These a**holes always get away” [Orlando Sentinel]

    2. Zimmerman pursued Martin against the explicit instructions of the police dispatcher:
    Dispatcher: “Are you following him?”
    Zimmerman: “Yeah”
    Dispatcher: “OK, we don’t need you to do that.”
    [Orlando Sentinel]

    3. Prior to the release of the 911 tapes, Zimmerman’s father released a statement claiming “[a]t no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin.” [Sun Sentinel]

    4. Zimmerman was carrying a a 9 millimeter handgun. Martin was carrying a bag of Skittles and a can of iced tea. [ABC News]

    5. Martin weighed 140 pounds. Zimmerman weighs 250 pounds. [Orlando Sentinel; WDBO]

    6. Martin’s English teacher described him as “as an A and B student who majored in cheerfulness.” [Orlando Sentinel]

    7. Martin had no criminal record. [New York Times]

    8. Zimmerman “was charged in July 2005 with resisting arrest with violence and battery on an officer. The charges appear to have been dropped.” [Huffington Post]

    9. Zimmerman called the police 46 times since Jan. 1, 2011. [Miami Herald]

    10. According to neighbors, Zimmerman was “fixated on crime and focused on young, black males.” [Miami Herald]

    11. Zimmerman “had been the subject of complaints by neighbors in his gated community for aggressive tactics” [Huffington Post]

    12. A police officer “corrected” a key witness. “The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, it was Zimmerman who cried for help, said the witness. ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help.” [ABC News]

    13. Three witnesses say they heard a boy cry for help before a shot was fired. “Three witnesses contacted by The Miami Herald say they saw or heard the moments before and after the Miami Gardens teenager’s killing. All three said they heard the last howl for help from a despondent boy.” [Miami Herald]

    14. The officer in charge of the crime scene also received criticism in 2010 when he initially failed to arrest a lieutenant’s son who was videotaped attacking a homeless black man. [New York Times]

    15. The police did not test Zimmerman for drugs or alcohol. A law enforcement expert told ABC that Zimmerman sounds intoxicated on the 911 tapes. Drug and alcohol testing is “standard procedure in most homicide investigations.” [ABC News]

    16. In a cell phone call moments before his death, Martin told a teenage girl that he was “hounded by a strange man on a cellphone who ran after him, cornered him and confronted him.” “‘He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man,’ Martin’s friend said. ‘I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run.’ Eventually he would run, said the girl, thinking that he’d managed to escape. But suddenly the strange man was back, cornering Martin. ‘Trayvon said, ‘What, are you following me for,’ and the man said, ‘What are you doing here.’” [ABC News]

    17. Zimmerman told the police “he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on when Trayvon attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck.” “He said he feared for his life and fired the semiautomatic handgun he was licensed to carry because he feared for his life.” [Miami Herald]

    18. Zimmerman was not a member of a registered Neighborhood Watch group. Zimmerman also violated basic Neighborhood Watch guidelines by carrying a weapon. [ABC News]

  • Igor

    This is easy: Zimmerman is a trigger-happy racist. He stalked a kid, with no justification, started a fight then killed the kid with his pistol. The police did their part to cover up by not arresting Zimmerman, not taking his weapon, not giving a drug or alcohol test (although the 911 dispatcher said he sounded drunk), accepted his excuse, coerced a witness, and generally transgressed normal procedure, even stating that there was no reason to doubt his self-defense argument against a small unarmed kid. Then they lied about Zimmermans police record and refused to notify the boys family for two days.

    This case stinks. Zimmerman and the crooked cops should all be jailed NOW before they can contaminate more evidence and coerce more witnesses.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Has to be a reason Zimmerman thought he needed to fire his gun.

    Yeah, because senseless violence never happens…

  • http://cinemasentries.com/ El Bicho

    “if Zimmerman had been black and Martin white, with all of the facts being the same, would Martin be in jail? I think he would.”

    If the races were switched and all the facts were the same, wouldn’t Martin still be dead?

  • Clavos

    Nice catch, EB.

  • Igor

    Zimmerman is a vigilante, roaming the streets looking for a black person to kill. He belonged to NO Neighborhood Watch organization, and calling him a “Captain of a Neighborhood Watch” was a self-invented status. He had NO certification of any kind, and was already in trouble with the police.

    Zimmerman was an identifiable crazy racist.

    What’s worse is the way the police acted afterwards, which is at least equally felonious. They contributed to the crime after the fact, just like the getaway driver after a bank robbery.

    The “stand your ground” law was designed so that a homeowner could protect himself and his family against an invading criminal. (Unless, of course, that invader is a bank with properly forged foreclosure papers!)

  • Glenn Contrarian

    El B –

    If the races were switched and all the facts were the same, wouldn’t Martin still be dead?

    Yes – but would a black Zimmermann have been allowed to walk free? That, sir, is the question.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    would a black Zimmermann have been allowed to walk free? That, sir, is the question.

    Sadly, it is.

    There was a funny but pointed skit on Comedy Central’s Key and Peele last night, in which Obama is teaching Malia to drive. She runs a stop sign and they get pulled over. The cop realizes who’s in the car, apologizes and tells them to carry on. Obama says, “No, officer, Malia needs to learn consequences. Please handle this as you would if I weren’t the president.”

    Cut to a shot of Obama being slammed face down on the hood and handcuffed. “Not exactly what I had in mind,” he says.

  • Clavos

    The “stand your ground” law was designed so that a homeowner could protect himself and his family against an invading criminal.

    Actually, no. The notorious “stand your ground” law allows Floridians to stand their ground on the street or anywhere else, and merely on the basis of feeling threatened.

  • Igor

    Oh. So, if next month, say, a Big Bad Buck named, say, Shaquile Smith, walking down a Florida street at night were to encounter, say, Zimmerman, get into a quarrel with him, feel threated, draw his 18 mm pistol and plug Zimmerman in the chest, it would be OK?

    Why, this is wonderful! Anyone of us, apparently, can shoot whoever they “feel threatened” by, in our sole discretion, and the law will simply stand aside.

  • Clavos

    Anyone of us, apparently, can shoot whoever they “feel threatened” by, in our sole discretion, and the law will simply stand aside.

    At least in Florida you can. It’s already happened — several times.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    The big problem as I see it with the Florida law is that it removes the common-sense option from the police and the courts.

    Clearly there have been, in the past, cases where common sense has taken a hike in the opposite direction, and homicide prosecutions have been brought against people who were legitimately defending themselves or their property. Consequently, the Florida law was intended to protect the right to self-defense.

    Equally clearly, it’s written so broadly that all a person has to do after shooting someone in Florida is to claim self-defense and there’s a good chance they’ll get away with it.

    As I understand it, the “Stand Your Ground” law gave police – in the absence of anyone else who’d actually witnessed the shooting – no option but to take Zimmerman at his word, even though it’s pretty clear to anyone with half a brain cell that he was bullshitting.

    What’s particularly ridiculous is that if it had been a police officer who’d done the shooting, however justified he felt he was, he’d have been – at the very least – suspended on full pay pending an investigation. The state can’t even investigate Zimmerman.

  • Clavos

    Good analysis of the Florida version of the law, Doc. Some Floridians even term it the “shoot first and ask questions later” law.

    One thing I’d add to your #13 is that there already appears to be enough anger on the part of the citizenry that the Martin/Zimmerman case may well bring about a tightening of the language in the law.

  • Cannonshop

    This is what happens when things get out of hand and the people no longer trust the courts to administer justice-you get triggerhappy asshats like Zimmerman, and you get laws like Florida’s law-which was the result of a backlash against another trend.

    We now have a bad law, innocent people getting killed, and a murderer walking free, and the cause of this, is a legal culture so twisted that the average citizen (at least, in Florida) doesn’t trust the courts, or the police, or the prosecutors whom are supposed to be “the People’s Lawyers” in situations involving self-defense.

  • Zingzing

    If cannon and clavos represent the right on this, good. Zimmerman needs to be prosecuted.

  • Cannonshop

    #16 Simple, Zing: Murder is Murder, even if it goes uncharged it’s still murder. In this case, there will be no justice, because of a law written in reaction to the behaviour of Courts and Politicians in stripping and chipping at the REASONABLE standard of Self-Defense to the point it created an unfortunate backlash.

    an INEVITABLE backlash, by the way. When you hear news items about Burglars suing because they were hurt on someone’s property while committing their crimes, or states where the Prosecutor will absolutely GODSMACK you for fighting back against a criminal attacker, with rising crime rates and police that kill homeowners (Pima County), Police that will kill bystanders (Ruby Ridge), the Citizens are alone and abandoned, so they pushed a law that went a bit too far the other way, and now, an innocent has been killed by an opportunistic criminal douchebag.

    and the Douchebag is going to get away with it.

    This is what HAPPENS when you spend so much time on “Identity Politics” and politicizing the Judicial system that SIMPLE justice is broken and forgotten under the juggernaut of “Social Justice”.

    Law like Florida’s doesn’t evolve out of vacuum like some Creationist’s fantasy of life on earth, it’s the result of trends, and reactions TO trends, that weaken respect for the Law, and respect OF the people involved therein.

  • Igor

    #15-Cannonshop:predictably comes forward with a “blame the victim” excuse for outright murder.

    This is what happens when things get out of hand and the people no longer trust the courts to administer justice…

    you get laws like Florida’s law-which was the result of a backlash against another trend.

    And what trend is that? The trend of black high-school students walking home at night?

    the cause of this, is a legal culture so twisted that the average citizen (at least, in Florida) doesn’t trust the courts, or the police, or the prosecutors whom are supposed to be “the People’s Lawyers” in situations involving self-defense.

    What nonsense!

    There is NO “…legal culture so twisted …” that we have to set murderous vigilantes loose!

  • Igor

    Even the authors of the “Stand your ground” law say that Zimmerman is an unjustified killer: Miami Herald.


    TRAYVON MARTIN SHOOTING
    Stand Your Ground authors: Trayvon Martin’s shooter should likely be charged, avoid immunity

    As black lawmakers call for hearings to review and possibly repeal the Stand-Your-Ground law, the authors of the legislation say it’s being misconstrued and shouldn’t protect the accused shooter of Trayvon Martin.

    The authors of Florida’s controversial Stand Your Ground law say the killer of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin probably should be arrested and doesn’t deserve immunity under the statute.

    The comments from the Republican lawmakers came the same day state Sen. Oscar Braynon, D-Miami Gardens, urged the Florida Conference of Black State Legislators to call for the law to be repealed, amended or subject to legislative hearings. Trayvon’s mother lives in Braynon’s district.

    But the lawmakers who crafted the legislation in 2005, former Sen. Durell Peaden and current state Rep. Dennis Baxley, said the law doesn’t need to be changed. They believe it has been misapplied in the shooting death of Trayvon by a Sanford crime-watch captain, George Zimmerman.

    Zimmerman has not been charged because, police said, it appears he acted in self-defense. The Seminole County state attorney’s office decided Tuesday to take the case before a grand jury.

    “They got the goods on him. They need to prosecute whoever shot the kid,” said Peaden, a Crestview Republican who sponsored the deadly force law in 2005. “He has no protection under my law.”

    Peaden and Baxley, R-Ocala, say their law is a self-defense act. It says law-abiding people have no duty to retreat from an attacker and can meet “force with force.” Nowhere does it say that a person has a right to confront another.

    The 911 tapes strongly suggest Zimmerman overstepped his bounds, they say, when the Sanford neighborhood crime-watch captain said he was following Trayvon and appeared to ignore a police request to stay away.

    “The guy lost his defense right then,” said Peaden. “When he said ‘I’m following him,’ he lost his defense.”

    And remember, Zimmerman had NO official law enforcement status. He was a “Captain” only in his own diseased mind!

  • Cannonshop

    #18 So…the victim wasn’t Trayvon Martin, a seventeen year old unarmed kid, but a bunch of lawyers, politicians and cops, Igor?

    God damn your priorities are out of whack.

    The victim was a kid. The reason the killer’s going to walk, is what you’re calling “Blaming the victim”-which is not blaming a victim, it’s making an observation that laws of the sort that are going to see Zimmerman out there until he kills someone else come from somewhere, and it’s not “K Street”.

    Those laws come about, Igor, because people (Justifiably or not) often don’t trust the Legal System to provide justice, so much as persecution. This is a bad thing, Igor, it means there will be MORE Trayvon Martins, and more Zimmermann’s out there,

    It’s interesting and typical that a collectivist such as yourself refuses to acknowledge the share of the blame borne by his cause. The LEFT created the conditions that made the Florida law appear reasonable, Igor.

    The Poltical Left isn’t the Victim here, Igor, Trayvon Martin is.

  • Dan

    “What jumps out at me is a question: if Zimmerman had been black and Martin white, with all of the facts being the same, would Martin be in jail? I think he would.”—Donald Tucker

    I guess the thing that “jumps out at me” is the obvious fact that Zimmerman is not white but clearly Latino/Mestizo.

    A few other facts not readily available from anti-white biased media accounts:

    Trayvon was a 6’2″ football player, he no longer resembled the outdated, baby faced, grade school photograph that accompanies most news accounts.

    Trayvon, although described as a “model student” in many media accounts, was serving a 5 day school suspension. A lawyer for Trayvons family has blocked access to further school records.

    George Zimmerman was in good standing with the local homeowners’ association. They had reported to the Miami Herald that Zimmerman had actually caught one thief and aided in the legal apprehension of other criminals.

    Zimmermans story is corroborated by an eyewitness who says that George Zimmerman was on the ground and Trayvon was on top of him punching him.

    The witness says that Zimmerman was screaming and yelling for help.

    The police arrived to find Zimmerman bleeding from his face and the back of his head. He also had grass stains on his back.

    When police played the 911 tape for Martins father, the father said that the voice screaming was not the voice of his son.

    There is quite a bit of crime in this neighborhood. It is only 49% white. It is common for neighborhood watch volunteers to “confront” suspicious people.

    I think it is probable that Zimmerman was within his right to confront Martin, but Martin made a grave mistake in violently attacking Zimmerman.

  • roger nowosielski

    “The LEFT created the conditions that made the Florida law appear reasonable, Igor.”

    Low blow, my man. It may have been a catalyst, but surely nothing can make “the Florida law appear reasonable,” let alone justifiable. Let’s own up to the fact there are still many rednecks out there, with or without excuse. And it’s systemic, the fabric which makes this country, part of the Anglo-Saxon psyche.

  • roger nowosielski

    I don’t know, Dan. Yours is surely a different narrative than the one which has been circulating of late. What about the ninety pounds weight advantage? That’s almost like double in size, I certainly wouldn’t be put down on the ground by a midget and scream for help. And I’m certain neither would you.

    Hope you can substantiate your story.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    Dan’s attitude (no surprise he shows up on this thread) neatly answers Donald’s hypothetical – just not the way Dan thinks it does.

    I particularly like how Dan is almost zealously eager to accept the theory of George Zimmerman “standing his ground” and acting in self-defense.

    Yet Trayvon Martin, who according to his girlfriend was freaked out by some weird-looking guy who was following him in his car, simply – in Dan’s mind – launched an unprovoked attack on George. According to Dan, the Florida law didn’t apply to Trayvon. He wasn’t allowed to “stand his ground”. And he couldn’t possibly also have been acting in self-defense.

    Because weird-looking guys stalking you never feel threatening, do they?

  • roger nowosielski

    Isn’t it the case that Zimmerman has been a missing person of late?

    According to the latest, he’d just packed his bags and left. And no one, not even the Florida Police Dept., is the wiser.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dan –

    Read #2 above – it conflicts with much of what you said, and gives all the references you need to verify it. But of course, you MUST NOT BELIEVE anything my references give since they don’t fit in with your personal prejudices….

  • Dan

    “I particularly like how Dan is almost zealously eager to accept the theory of George Zimmerman “standing his ground” and acting in self-defense.”—Dreadful

    Well, according to the eyewitness, and Zimmerman, he wasn’t “standing his ground”, he was laying on the ground being pummeled bloody.

    Roger, I think Zimmerman is likely trying to avoid being lynched.

  • Dan

    Glenn, your #2 also starts out by proclaiming Zimmerman to be a 28 year old “white man”. He clearly is not.

    If Zimmerman had developed a cure for cancer or some such, the media would be praising him as a Hispanic. But since he stands accused of murdering a black 17 year old he is now white.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    But since he stands accused of murdering a black 17 year old he is now white.

    Or he suddenly became Hispanic when he was accused of a racist vigilante killing.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Hey Dan! I was wondering when you were gonna show up on this thread. You did not disappoint, chief. :)

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    I saw the Fox News interview with this “eyewitness” (interviewed while hiding behind his front door), which was such an abysmal piece of journalism it wouldn’t have made it onto most local news broadcasts.

    And actually, the eyewitness said nothing about seeing Zimmerman “being pummeled bloody”. That’s your conclusion, Dan, and nothing else.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dan –

    “He can’t be racist – he’s Hispanic!”

    Just like “I can’t be racist – I’ve got a friend who’s black!”

    Both are equally fallacious, for I’ve known many a racist to whom the second statement applied including – for many years – myself.

    So don’t give me your crap, Dan. In many ways it’s quite similar to being an AA sponsor of an alcoholic. The sponsor – who knows firsthand what it’s like being an alcoholic – knocks down the excuses of the alcoholic, because he’s been there, done that. When it comes to prejudice and racism, Dan, I’ve been there, done that, and I know all too well the excuses and prejudice that rule your mind.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    And concerning the “self-protection” law:

    ============================

    Martin weighed nearly 100 pounds less than Zimmerman and was found carrying only a bag of Skittles candy and a can of iced tea. Police said that without evidence proving that Zimmerman attacked Martin first, they had no grounds to charge him with a crime.

    Dennis Baxley, a Republican state representative and co-author of the 2005 self-defense law, said Zimmerman negated his ability to claim immunity under the law by chasing Martin.

    “This law is for innocent, law-abiding citizens who are under attack by a perpetrator,” Baxley told The Huffington Post. “Anyone who is out pursuing and confronting people is not protected by this statute.”

    “I think they need to go back and read the statute,” Baxley said, referring to the Sanford Police Department.

    Former Republican State Sen. Durell Peadon, another co-author of the law, said Zimmerman “has no protection under my law.”

    “They need to prosecute whoever shot the kid,” Peadon told the Miami Herald on Tuesday.

    Gun rights advocates also question the decision not to charge Zimmerman.

    “I don’t see why he hasn’t been arrested,” said Sean Caranna, executive director of Florida Carry, a gun rights group.

    Zimmerman had no right to follow and confront Martin in the first place, Caranna noted.

    “Being the neighborhood watch guy doesn’t give you carte blanche to stop and question every guy you see walking down the street,” Caranna said.

    =================================

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Of course Zimmermann can’t be racist – that’s why he said something that sounds a LOT like “fucking coons” in the 911 call.

  • Igor

    Zimmerman, and his gun, seem to have disappeared.

  • roger nowosielski

    Leave it to the BC crowd for almost any comments space, whatever the topic, to turn hilarious.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    I wasn’t aware that any of us were being hilarious. Perhaps sarcastic, but there’s not much humor to be found here – except, perhaps, in the eyes of bitter cynics like the Comedian in “The Watchmen”.

  • Dan

    “Or he suddenly became Hispanic when he was accused of a racist vigilante killing.”—Dreadful

    Yes, how convienient that he looks hispanic and has hispanic ancestory (Damn tricky white guys.)

    Glenn, I made no suggestion as to any “racist” motivation, or lack there of, from Zimmerman. This is all from your fevered imagination. I simply pointed out that he is not white as your “evidence” from comment #2 claimed.

    Actually, we don’t agree on what “racism” is, or who is being victimized by the concept of “racism”. So defending someone from the charge of “racism” is something I would do only after agreeing to your convoluted and often contradictory concept. Which, I do not.

    If Zimmerman was not attacked, beat down, and bloodied as the evidence and witnesses suggest, or even if Zimmermans’ aggresive psuedo-cop routine was a physical confrontation that warranted a bloody beat down, then I would join the consensus. But it doesn’t appear to me that there is sufficient evidence for that.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    Yes, how convienient that he looks hispanic and has hispanic ancestory

    Setting aside the question of what Hispanic is supposed to look like, he also has white ancestry.

    I just think it’s interesting that his Hispanic side came out only after the question was raised that the shooting might have been racially motivated (“George can’t be racist, he’s Latino”).

    If Zimmerman was not attacked, beat down, and bloodied as the evidence and witnesses suggest

    You seem to be the only one they suggest this to.

  • Zingzing

    Tell you what, Dan… I’ll follow you around for an evening carrying a gun. I’d really like to see how you take it. I expect that you’d be very gracious, but I might have other ideas. You never know what the guy following you about has on his mind. Maybe I’d like directions. To your skull [metal music].

  • Cannonshop

    Ahgoddammitherewegoagain…

    Enough with the RACE crap, people. Zimmermann is not an HISPANIC name, it’s origin is GERMAN, the majority hispanic population in Florida is of Cuban/Caribbean stock, not Mexican, Guatemalan, etc.

    The only fact that matters here, is that a 17 year old boy was shot by a 28 year old man who outmassed him by near enough to a hundered pounds that it didn’t matter, and the killer managed to jawbone out of it because the Police either didn’t understand the law in question, or chose to interpret it in an odd way that let them not take action.

    The VICTIM is of african ancestry, the killer is of mixed ancestry-it doesn’t really matter what KIND of mixed ancestors. What matters is, Zimmermann got away with murder, right in public.

    I’d say he’d BETTER run. Someone might decide to “Self Defense” HIM to death, and with this kind of public outcry, the prosecutors that let him walk would probably nod, smile, and say “Well, the law’s tying our hands…”

  • zingzing

    oh, come on, cannonshop… do you really think race had nothing to do with this? unless martin was doing something suspicious, and there’s no real indication he was, he was profiled by zimmerman. something tells me that if martin had been a 17-year-old blond girl, none of this would have happened. maybe i’m wrong, but i really doubt it.

  • Cannonshop

    #22 Roger, Zimmermann chased the kid down, picked a fight and shot him. per ANGLO SAXON rules, he’s a douchebag who picked the fight, thus removing any NORMAL claim of “Self Defense”…per Anglo-saxon rules, so don’t go there, ‘kay? Upon further reflection and the statements of the bill’s authors, I’d say the reason Zimmermann is walking, is a political one-the cops wanted to make the law in question look bad to influence the public (and given my earlier reaction, it partly worked!)

    I’d go further and say that this offers MORE proof that City cops just can’t be trusted, and shouldn’t be. Especially in the South.

  • Cannonshop

    #42 No, Zing, I’d have to say race definitely DID play a part-this IS the Deep South we’re talking about, a racist hellpit in the best areas. Racist Cops, in particular, not that different from Los Angeles (Californian) racist cops-selectively interpreting the law for their own ends.

    But more to it, Zimmermann’s race, whether “White”, “Mixed” or “Hispanic” has nothing to do with it. his victim’s race might well have had something to do with it, the event having happened, after all, in Florida, another racist hell-pit next door to racist hell-pits Georgia and Mississippi.

    I was mainly aiming my disgust at the argument over the Killer’s racial background-which is silly AND irrelevant. He’s a murderer, who got away with it. Plain and simple. It doesn’t matter if he’s white, brown, or purple with crimson polka-dots, the guy murdered a kid he outmassed after chasing said kid down, with a gun. In public. and got away with it.

    That’s the ONLY thing that matters, other than HOW he got away with it. Whether because he had some racist cops on his side, or because he had cops and prosecutors who didn’t like a law that was intended to empower citizens instead of making them helpless serfs, those are the only questions that matter-because both have the same answer-the Judicial system in Florida’s obviously, visibly corrupted, and people are dying as a result, and confidence IN the judicial system is eroded as a result-which will, on balance, get MORE people killed.

    AND if it spreads, or has spread, nationally? things aren’t looking good.

    But let’s be real frelling clear here, Zing, Trayvon Martin’s murder is a crime against ALL OF US. not just Blacks, not just Floridians, ALL of us-because his killer walks away scot-free due to corrupt officials, which is another crime against ALL OF US.

    I will reiterate my sincere hope that Zimmermann gets “Self Defensed” in that jurisdiction-to death. Or fed to the alligators, I don’t care which. I don’t trust the courts with his ass, they’ll coddle it.

    Maybe it’s that dirty raving 1/10th Anglo Saxon blood I’ve got, but Zimmermann bullied that kid, chased him down, harassed him, started a fight, and murdered him. I really could give a shit less why he claims he did it, the fact is, he saw someone he could harm with impunity and did so, and imho he needs to pay, in blood and pain, hopefully as painfully as possible before expiring in a humiliating way.

    are we clear?

  • zingzing

    alright, tiger. he should be prosecuted and put away for a long time. and if he ever does get out, he shouldn’t be able to own a gun. no need to go getting your bloodlust up.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Cannonshop –

    his victim’s race might well have had something to do with it, the event having happened, after all, in Florida, another racist hell-pit next door to racist hell-pits Georgia and Mississippi.

    Mississippi? Racist? Cannonshop, how DARE you even insinuate such a thing! Why, I never!

  • LeshaB

    I agree with igor,connonshop,clavos,dr dreadful & glenn, all of you that said zimmerman had probable cause for shooting that young man is is just ask screwed up as he is.. from what I’ve been reading in ALL these articles Trayvon did nothing wrong, he had every reason to walk wiith his hoodie on…is it against the law to protect yourself from the rain? Or to put your hood up because some strange looking maniac is following you? I mean what was he going to do to a 250 lb man, hit him in the eye with a skittle?? And because zimmerman pleads “self-defense” the idiot cops just roll with it??? Let’s be serious here, I don’t even have to say it we all know why Trayvon Martin is dead and he deserves JUSTICE THAT’S IT, THAT’S ALL JUSTICE

  • Clavos

    the majority hispanic population in Florida is of Cuban/Caribbean stock…

    True at one time, but not for many years now; the south and central americans now outnumber the caribs and cubans by a substantial margin.

  • Clavos

    Um, LeshaB:

    I never said Zimmerman had probable cause for killing Martin; nor, for that matter, did anyone else you mention in your comment.

  • LeshaB

    Clavos- I said I AGREE with you and the others read it again hun

  • Igor

    Maybe more people are killed because of this law

    Miami Herald

    TRAYVON MARTIN SHOOTING DEATH
    Number of “stand your ground” cases rises as legislators rethink law

    A Tampa Bay Times survey shows that police and prosecutors continue to apply the “stand your ground” law unevenly.

    The “stand your ground” law

    Florida Statute 776.013 (3): “A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.”

    By Ben Montgomery and Connie Humburg
    Tampa Bay Times staff writers

    The controversial law which police have cited in their decision not to charge the man who shot and killed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin has been invoked at least 130 times statewide since 2005.

    A Tampa Bay Times survey, compiled from 31 Florida newspapers and public records, shows that the number of cases in which “stand your ground” has been invoked has climbed dramatically in the past year and a half. The analysis shows that police and prosecutors continue to apply the law unevenly.

    As pressure mounts to charge George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch volunteer who ignored police advice not to confront the unarmed teen on Feb. 26, Gov. Rick Scott announced he would convene a task force to study the law. No group keeps a tally of cases in which Florida Statute 776.013 (3), commonly known as the “stand your ground” law, is invoked.

    The law expands a citizen’s right to use deadly force anywhere that he has a right to be if he “reasonably believes” it is necessary to stop another person from killing or hurting him badly.

    The Times analysis shows that more than 70 percent of the 130 cases involved a fatality. In the majority of the cases, the person who plunged the knife or swung the bat or pulled the trigger did not face a trial.

    In 50 of the cases, the person who used force was never charged with a crime. Another nine defendants were granted immunity by a judge and nine cases were dismissed.

    In 10 cases, the defendant pleaded guilty to lesser crimes.

    Of the 28 cases that made it to trial, 19 people were found guilty of a crime.

    Twenty-two cases are still pending. (The outcomes of two could not be learned by press time.)

    The Times analysis also shows that “stand your ground” is being invoked with greater frequency.

  • Clavos

    I know you said you agree, but I repeat: I never said he had probable cause.

    I did point out that he had the “stand your ground” law to hide behind, but that’s not the same thing as probable cause.

  • Igor

    Here’s the actual statute:

    Florida statute

    The 2011 Florida Statutes

    Title XLVI
    CRIMES

    Chapter 776
    JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE

    776.012?Use of force in defense of person.
    776.013?Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.
    776.031?Use of force in defense of others.
    776.032?Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.
    776.041?Use of force by aggressor.
    776.05?Law enforcement officers; use of force in making an arrest.
    776.051?Use of force in resisting arrest or making an arrest or in the execution of a legal duty; prohibition.
    776.06?Deadly force.
    776.07?Use of force to prevent escape.
    776.08?Forcible felony.
    776.085?Defense to civil action for damages; party convicted of forcible or attempted forcible felony.
    776.012?Use of force in defense of person. A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
    (1)?He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
    (2)?Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.
    History.—s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1188, ch. 97-102; s. 2, ch. 2005-27.
    776.013?Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—
    (1)?A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
    (a)?The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
    (b)?The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
    (2)?The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:
    (a)?The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or
    (b)?The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
    (c)?The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or
    (d)?The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.
    (3)?A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
    (4)?A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
    (5)?As used in this section, the term:
    (a)?“Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobiThe 2011 Florida Statutes

    Title XLVI
    CRIMES

    Chapter 776
    JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE

    View Entire Chapter
    CHAPTER 776
    JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE
    776.012?Use of force in defense of person.
    776.013?Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.
    776.031?Use of force in defense of others.
    776.032?Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.
    776.041?Use of force by aggressor.
    776.05?Law enforcement officers; use of force in making an arrest.
    776.051?Use of force in resisting arrest or making an arrest or in the execution of a legal duty; prohibition.
    776.06?Deadly force.
    776.07?Use of force to prevent escape.
    776.08?Forcible felony.
    776.085?Defense to civil action for damages; party convicted of forcible or attempted forcible felony.
    776.012?Use of force in defense of person.-A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
    (1)?He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
    (2)?Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.
    History.-s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1188, ch. 97-102; s. 2, ch. 2005-27.
    776.013?Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.-
    (1)?A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
    (a)?The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
    (b)?The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
    (2)?The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:
    (a)?The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or
    (b)?The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
    (c)?The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or
    (d)?The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.
    (3)?A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
    (4)?A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
    (5)?As used in this section, the term:
    (a)?“Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.
    (b)?“Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.
    (c)?“Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.
    History.-s. 1, ch. 2005-27.
    776.031?Use of force in defense of others.-A person is justified in the use of force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate the other’s trespass on, or other tortious or criminal interference with, either real property other than a dwelling or personal property, lawfully in his or her possession or in the possession of another who is a member of his or her immediate family or household or of a person whose property he or she has a legal duty to protect. However, the person is justified in the use of deadly force only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person does not have a duty to retreat if the person is in a place where he or she has a right to be.
    History.-s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1189, ch. 97-102; s. 3, ch. 2005-27.
    776.032?Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.-
    (1)?A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
    (2)?A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
    (3)?The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).
    History.-s. 4, ch. 2005-27.
    776.041?Use of force by aggressor.-The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
    (1)?Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
    (2)?Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
    (a)?Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
    (b)?In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
    History.-s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1190, ch. 97-102.
    776.05?Law enforcement officers; use of force in making an arrest.-A law enforcement officer, or any person whom the officer has summoned or directed to assist him or her, need not retreat or desist from efforts to make a lawful arrest because of resistance or threatened resistance to the arrest. The officer is justified in the use of any force:
    (1)?Which he or she reasonably believes to be necessary to defend himself or herself or another from bodily harm while making the arrest;
    (2)?When necessarily committed in retaking felons who have escaped; or
    (3)?When necessarily committed in arresting felons fleeing from justice. However, this subsection shall not constitute a defense in any civil action for damages brought for the wrongful use of deadly force unless the use of deadly force was necessary to prevent the arrest from being defeated by such flight and, when feasible, some warning had been given, and:
    (a)?The officer reasonably believes that the fleeing felon poses a threat of death or serious physical harm to the officer or others; or
    (b)?The officer reasonably believes that the fleeing felon has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm to another person.
    History.-s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1, ch. 75-64; s. 1, ch. 87-147; s. 54, ch. 88-381; s. 1191, ch. 97-102.
    776.051?Use of force in resisting arrest or making an arrest or in the execution of a legal duty; prohibition.-
    (1)?A person is not justified in the use of force to resist an arrest by a law enforcement officer, or to resist a law enforcement officer who is engaged in the execution of a legal duty, if the law enforcement officer was acting in good faith and he or she is known, or reasonably appears, to be a law enforcement officer.
    (2)?A law enforcement officer, or any person whom the officer has summoned or directed to assist him or her, is not justified in the use of force if the arrest or execution of a legal duty is unlawful and known by him or her to be unlawful.
    History.-s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1192, ch. 97-102; s. 1, ch. 2008-67.
    776.06?Deadly force.-
    (1)?The term “deadly force” means force that is likely to cause death or great bodily harm and includes, but is not limited to:
    (a)?The firing of a firearm in the direction of the person to be arrested, even though no intent exists to kill or inflict great bodily harm; and
    (b)?The firing of a firearm at a vehicle in which the person to be arrested is riding.
    (2)(a)?The term “deadly force” does not include the discharge of a firearm by a law enforcement officer or correctional officer during and within the scope of his or her official duties which is loaded with a less-lethal munition. As used in this subsection, the term “less-lethal munition” means a projectile that is designed to stun, temporarily incapacitate, or cause temporary discomfort to a person without penetrating the person’s body.
    (b)?A law enforcement officer or a correctional officer is not liable in any civil or criminal action arising out of the use of any less-lethal munition in good faith during and within the scope of his or her official duties.
    History.-s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1, ch. 99-272.
    776.07?Use of force to prevent escape.-
    (1)?A law enforcement officer or other person who has an arrested person in his or her custody is justified in the use of any force which he or she reasonably believes to be necessary to prevent the escape of the arrested person from custody.
    (2)?A correctional officer or other law enforcement officer is justified in the use of force, including deadly force, which he or she reasonably believes to be necessary to prevent the escape from a penal institution of a person whom the officer reasonably believes to be lawfully detained in such institution under sentence for an offense or awaiting trial or commitment for an offense.
    History.-s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 7, ch. 95-283; s. 1193, ch. 97-102.
    776.08?Forcible felony.-“Forcible felony” means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.
    History.-s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 4, ch. 75-298; s. 289, ch. 79-400; s. 5, ch. 93-212; s. 10, ch. 95-195.
    776.085?Defense to civil action for damages; party convicted of forcible or attempted forcible felony.-
    (1)?It shall be a defense to any action for damages for personal injury or wrongful death, or for injury to property, that such action arose from injury sustained by a participant during the commission or attempted commission of a forcible felony. The defense authorized by this section shall be established by evidence that the participant has been convicted of such forcible felony or attempted forcible felony, or by proof of the commission of such crime or attempted crime by a preponderance of the evidence.
    (2)?For the purposes of this section, the term “forcible felony” shall have the same meaning as in s. 776.08.
    (3)?Any civil action in which the defense recognized by this section is raised shall be stayed by the court on the motion of the civil defendant during the pendency of any criminal action which forms the basis for the defense, unless the court finds that a conviction in the criminal action would not form a valid defense under this section.
    (4)?In any civil action where a party prevails based on the defense created by this section:
    (a)?The losing party, if convicted of and incarcerated for the crime or attempted crime, shall, as determined by the court, lose any privileges provided by the correctional facility, including, but not limited to:
    1.?Canteen purchases;
    2.?Telephone access;
    3.?Outdoor exercise;
    4.?Use of the library; and
    5.?Visitation.
    (b)?The court shall award a reasonable attorney’s fee to be paid to the prevailing party in equal amounts by the losing party and the losing party’s attorney; however, the losing party’s attorney is not personally responsible if he or she has acted in good faith, based on the representations of his or her client. If the losing party is incarcerated for the crime or attempted crime and has insufficient assets to cover payment of the costs of the action and the award of fees pursuant to this paragraph, the party shall, as determined by the court, be required to pay by deduction from any payments the prisoner receives while incarcerated.
    (c)?If the losing party is incarcerated for the crime or attempted crime, the court shall issue a written order containing its findings and ruling pursuant to paragraphs (a) and (b) and shall direct that a certified copy be forwarded to the appropriate correctional institution or facility.
    History.-s. 1, ch. 87-187; s. 72, ch. 96-388.

  • Cannonshop

    However, the person is justified in the use of deadly force only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person does not have a duty to retreat if the person is in a place where he or she has a right to be.
    History.-s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1189, ch. 97-102; s. 3, ch. 2005-27.
    776.032?Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.-
    (1)?A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
    (2)?A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

    and here’s the section that the Sanford cops used as their excuse, as well as the bit that shows why it’s NOT an excuse.

    ’cause let’s face it, even by witness reports, this has probable cause to investigate Zimmermann’s use of force alllll over it, nevermind the victim’s background, which just makes it worse. I’m starting to think there are some cops in Sanford that need to have their badges taken away.

  • LeshaB

    Alright I just thought you misread the comment that’s all

  • LeshaB

    I wasn’t saying that YOU said he had probable cause I didn’t say that anyone said it, perhaps I misused my words, I didn’t comment for argument ;)

  • Dan

    “Setting aside the question of what Hispanic is supposed to look like, he also has white ancestry”—Dreadful

    It’s quite possible that Trayvon had some white ancestry. African Americans average about a 20% admixture. So I guess if you wanted to play race games you could say that the killing was “white on white”.

    “I just think it’s interesting that his Hispanic side came out only after the question was raised that the shooting might have been racially motivated (“George can’t be racist, he’s Latino”).”—Dreadful

    Yep, it’s a point I’ve made often: Whites do not receive equal protection under law. In the very societies they conceived and created, and opened to “the other”.

    hell yea. “Jorge” Zimmerman would be foolish not to trot his status and change that narrative. He’ll be wearing tourquoise from here out.

    I think it’s reasonable to assume that a main reason why the story had national legs to begin with was the “white on black” narrative. Of all the mayhem people of color unfortunately seem to find themselves mixed up in, there certainly were more compelling sufferings that weekend.

  • Nate Barrino

    I have a few hypothetical view points,that may,or may not, come to fruition!

    1. Zimmerman’s prior run-ins with authorities, cripples his chances of a career as a police.

    2. Zimmerman’s rejection of becoming an official policeman, is knocked down and crushed.

    3. A legal (neighborhood watch) program was not for Zimmerman, due to restrictions of handguns, pepper sprays, and the like.

    4. Therefore, he offers his volunteer, and/or vigilante service, to the Florida Police Dept., in hopes of squashing his past transgressions, and eventually land him a job with the force.

    5. Dedicated to his ambition of becoming a police officer, He’s given certain geographical areas to monitor when called upon.

    6. Unfortunately, in an assigned gated community, he wondered upon an innocent situation of which he felt would catapult his heroism; however, it backfired.

    7. As a young, Black, gifted and innocent boy, lay dying in a pool of his blood, Zimmerman is in a quagmire, and in dire need of a motive.

    8. Though 911 audio entails much, They would all manufacture a bogus “self defense”, to a cold-bloodied scenario, that is now crumbling.

    9. Due to the chief’s obliviousness of Zimmerman’s relationship to him, his threats of bringing the chief and the entire department down with him, looms large, and huge rocks are falling! In essence, there just maybe a lot of threatening steps to that ladder!!

    10. A leader’s temporary leave of absence will develop a more permanent status, and everyone involved in this mastery of deception will falter. Surely, Trayvon Martin will (check-mate) them all from his grave, and his soul shall rest.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    Whites do not receive equal protection under law. In the very societies they conceived and created, and opened to “the other”.

    You probably typed that with a straight face, Dan, which is pretty fascinating.

    You’re absolutely right, though. Whites don’t receive equal protection: they receive far better protection, as study after study has shown.

  • Igor

    “Dan” really blew his credibility with this howler:

    “Whites do not receive equal protection under law. In the very societies they conceived and created, and opened to “the other”.”

    Dan: do you mean when they ‘opened’ society to blacks by enslaving them in the holds of leaky boats and compelling them 4000 miles across the sea to the forced labor camps?

    Etc., etc.

    This is just too easy.

    Try to do better next time “Dan”.

  • Clavos

    Dan: do you mean when they ‘opened’ society to blacks by enslaving them in the holds of leaky boats and compelling them 4000 miles across the sea to the forced labor camps?

    Ancient history, Igor. Besides, for the most part, other Africans enslaved them; Americans bought them after they were already slaves.

  • Daniel Lockwood

    These ‘Stand Your Ground’ laws allow a killer to eliminate the most crucial witnesses in any investigation – the victims point of view…

  • Dan

    “You’re absolutely right, though. Whites don’t receive equal protection: they receive far better protection, as study after study has shown.”—Dreadful

    Well, “study after study” has attempted to show that. The racial grievance industry is tenacious about preserving their false narrative. Typically these pre-concluded “studies” will be presented in the liberal media with great fanfare and then quietly debunked later as real statistical scholars get a look at the methodologic bias. The cycle is then repeated.

    But instead of going off on that tangent, why not explain why you thought it “interesting” that his “Hispanic side” came out after the shooting was described as a white on black shooting by reporters in comment #39? Try to be honest. Isn’t it because you realized that he would get better treatment as a hispanic?

    The violation of whites “equal protection” goes much farther than just criminal law. It is fully institutionalized in the vast myriad of “Affirmative Action” legislation, most of which is suppressed from scrutiny by it’s white victims.

    “Ancient history, Igor. Besides, for the most part, other Africans enslaved them; Americans bought them after they were already slaves.”—Clavos

    Yep, nothing like the now discredited fairy tale described in the film “Roots”. Also, not long after the US was established they were freed and civil rights legislation made their decendants perpetual benefactors of unequal privilege to this day. Immigration law was then amended in 1965 so that massively more third worlders could flee their failed societies and take up privileged status over the founding stock who are supposedly being “enriched” by the diversity.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    Typically these pre-concluded “studies” will be presented in the liberal media with great fanfare and then quietly debunked later as real statistical scholars get a look at the methodologic bias.

    Again with this tendency of yours to change the narrative to suit your own prejudices, while making no attempt to back it up with, oh, anything at all. Citations. Studies. Things like that.

    why not explain why you thought it “interesting” that his “Hispanic side” came out after the shooting was described as a white on black shooting by reporters in comment #39? Try to be honest. Isn’t it because you realized that he would get better treatment as a hispanic?

    No, it’s because he realized he might not be accused of racism if he weren’t white. I fully realize that this was a cynical comment, but it might be what his thinking (or his father’s) was.

  • Cannonshop

    #62 Considering that Expediency, not Evidence, determines more often whether a murder is investigated. I think that perhaps, the victim’s point of view’s been absent for quite some time, Mr. Lockwood.

    The Martin case is more about the culture of central florida, and racism in the south, than it is about self-defense laws, though you might ask yourself sometime why those laws are seen as necessary.

    Remember also this: the police aren’t obligated to protect you, (ask anyone from an urban hellpit slum), they’re only obligated to clean up the mess and create a file on your murder. If they don’t see you as important to them, if the case looks like it might be somewhat difficult, or if they don’t want to touch the only suspect, they’ll FIND an excuse to blow the investigation outright, if that is the culture of that department. OJ comes to mind as a shining example of this one, there are others.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    you might ask yourself sometime why those laws are seen as necessary.

    That’s a crucial question, Cannon: to which I venture the answer that one cannot legislate common sense.

    (To wit, there’s always going to be some stupid, idealistic, ambitious or just plain vindictive DA who’ll want to prosecute for homicide even when a defendant was clearly acting reasonably and in self-defense.)

  • Cannonshop

    #66 exactly, Doc. Taken from the bare facts as we know them in the Zimmermann/Martin case, Trayvon Martin was standing his ground, and Zimmermann’s a murderer.

    Why, some might ask?

    Zimmerman pursued this kid, lost him for five minutes, hunted him down, and initiated a confrontation. In any other circumstances, that’s simple assault, but Zimmerman was ARMED-that makes it assault with a deadly weapon.

    Both are violent felonies-IF Trayvon managed (as some witnesses allege) to knock this larger-than-he-is man down, (I’d almost speculate Trayvon would have to be the new incarnation of bruce lee to do it), that’s okay under the law-Trayvon was under attack. Unfortunately, Trayvon wasn’t armed, and Zimmerman was. Misinterpretation at the scene and now the debate’s gone screwy.

  • Dan

    “…it’s because he realized he might not be accused of racism if he weren’t white”—Dreadful

    Correct!! Being accused of racism is very detrimental to receiving “equal treatment” under law. This is what I speak of when I point out that “racism” is a social construct designed to subjugate white people
    by blaming them for other races natural, scientifically demonstrated, lack of ability to achieve equal societal outcomes.

    “Zimmerman pursued this kid, lost him for five minutes, hunted him down, and initiated a confrontation”—Cannonshop

    You might want to put the rope down there Cannonshop. It looks like things are beginning to turn Zimmermans way.

    The Police have reiterated the fact that Zimmerman was bleeding from both the front and back of his head and the eye witness has reiterated that he saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman bashing away as Zimmerman screamed for help.

    Zimmerman has a very well spoken half black friend who maintains Zimmerman was a well respected member of the community who has had a lot of success solving and preventing crimes in the neighborhood.

    Zimmerman apparantly did things like tutor young black children.

    It appears Trayvon was suspended from school for “drug activity”. Or it might have been for beating a school bus driver. It also appears that a locker search revealed Trayvon was in possession of “burglary tools” and several items of womens jewelry.

    Zimmermans story, which hasn’t changed, is that he initially pursued Trayvon to moniter his location as a neighborhood watch captain is entitled to do before the cops show. When the police person told him “we don’t need you to do that” (notice that’s not an order), Zimmerman complied, he said “ok” and returned toward his vehicle. This was when Trayvon allegedly jumped him. The athletic 6’2 160lb (not 140lb) Trayvon allegedly knocked 5’9 200lb zimmerman to the ground with one punch, and then proceeded to jump on top pummeling zimmerman, as the witness described.

    This looks like the Duke Lacrosse rape case all over again. Hopefully the dishonest reportage of the story will not lead to Al Sharpton and the Black Panther retards ripping innocent white people from cars and beating the crap out of them, the way other similarly errant black retards have done in the past.

    Fortunately, Trayvons parents have trademarked several phrases with Trayvons name in them, so if they can’t get Zimmerman lynched at least they’ll be able to get some “justice” by making a few bucks off of their dead son.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    Being accused of racism is very detrimental to receiving “equal treatment” under law.

    I wasn’t talking about Zimmerman anticipating worse treatment from the law, I was talking about him anticipating a worse reaction from the public.

    Doesn’t seem like it worked.

    This is what I speak of when I point out that “racism” is a social construct designed to subjugate white people

    Funny, everybody else understands that racism is antagonism and/or discrimination against a person or group of people based solely on the colour of their skin or their (perceived) ethnic origin.

    other races natural, scientifically demonstrated, lack of ability to achieve equal societal outcomes.

    Every time you bring up this canard it is pointed out to you that this “scientific” evidence has been largely discredited and that the studies in question usually failed to take environmental factors into account, yet you continue to insist upon it.

  • Dan

    “Doesn’t seem like it worked.”—Dreadful

    I think it did. I’ve been hearing him now described as “white hispanic”. You knew they would have to get around to it sooner or later. It’s too obvious

  • Dan

    “Every time you bring up this canard it is pointed out to you that this “scientific” evidence has been largely discredited…”—Dreadful

    And then I demonstrate irrefutably that it has not. You had your chance, you lost the argument. I don’t intend to re-demonstrate scientific fact every time you put on the Alinsky denial show.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    And then I demonstrate irrefutably that it has not. You had your chance, you lost the argument.

    You fail to demonstrate anything of the kind. You simply state that something is so and then don’t bother to back your claim up.

    And you don’t get to declare yourself the winner either.

    What is it with right-wingers’ pathological need to claim that their arguments are irrefutable?

  • http://jetsgayheadlinenews-jet.blogspot.com/ Jet Gardner

    Doc… really? How many times to I have to explain the Bill Maher bubble to you?

  • Dan

    “You fail to demonstrate anything of the kind. You simply state that something is so and then don’t bother to back your claim up.”—Dreadful

    That is your behavior, not mine.

    “And you don’t get to declare yourself the winner either.”—Dreadful

    I just did. So you are wrong again.

    I would say that if you have any problem with my declaration you should go back and review where I demonstrated that race realism is firmly supported by mainstream science, but it was such a slam dunk, and your ignorance of the science is so apparent (still clinging to the Lewontin fallacy) that I have to assume that your aggresive rejection of subjects you know next to nothing about belies a truly pathological predisposition.

    Meanwhile, sane people get another reminder of the true nature of 90% of all interacial violence as a white 13 year old is dowsed in gasoline and set on fire while two 16 year old blacks explain to him “you get what you deserve white boy”.

  • zingzing

    dan, how are you defining “mainstream science”?

  • Kyle Hunter

    Dan believes in science?

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    I would say that if you have any problem with my declaration you should go back and review where I demonstrated that race realism is firmly supported by mainstream science

    Let’s refine my charge against you, then. You produced a single paper (a literature review) to back up your claims. This evidence was then ably challenged by several commenters. But I guess, having declared yourself the winner, you felt you didn’t need to go back and defend yourself further.

    Until now, that is.

    your ignorance of the science is so apparent (still clinging to the Lewontin fallacy)

    Not a fallacy. Let’s look at Jonathan Marks, who critiques Lewontin’s work and Edwards’s “fallacy” rebuttal, and points out that while there may be genetic differences between “races” (there obviously are, otherwise everyone’s skin would have a similar colour and everyone’s nose a similar shape, for example) there is no reason to suppose that these are somehow more significant than differences between populations.

    He also points out that there is far greater genetic diversity among the peoples of sub-Saharan Africa, where most African-Americans have their ancestry, than among Europeans. So even if you were somehow able to demonstrate conclusively that one’s blackness was genetically linked to a predisposition towards violence or lower intelligence, that might only be true of the descendants of a contingent of slaves who arrived from, say, Senegal. It doesn’t follow that you can then apply the same conclusions to those whose ancestors came from Nigeria, Ghana, Sierra Leone or Mauritania.

    (Any more than it follows that since your people, who (I’m just plucking this out of the air here for the sake of argument) came from Ukraine and Poland, you’re a bigger thicko than me, whose ancestors came from Scandinavia and Germany.)

    So we’re back to environmental factors being of greater significance, which as I stated on the other thread I’m not ready to discount, and which you’re nowhere near demonstrating isn’t the primary reason for the statistical discrepancies we’re talking about.

    Meanwhile, sane people get another reminder of the true nature of 90% of all interacial violence

    Where do you get 90% from?

    And, um… any reason to think these kids – sorry, these black kids – won’t be arrested once the police find out who they are?

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    @ #76: Only the science that he thinks supports his prejudices, Kyle. The rest is a liberal apologist conspiracy.

  • Zingzing

    Uh oh, Dan… police surveillance cameras show an uninjured Zimmerman on the night he supposedly was attacked.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    Well, to me it does look like he’s got a bloody nose. And the officer does check the back of his head, as if making sure he’s medically OK to be at the police station and doesn’t need to go to hospital.

    But even if (as a friend says he told him) paramedics cleaned him up at the scene, George certainly doesn’t look as if he’s been “beaten bloody”, nor can I see any grass stains on his jacket.

    That said, the footage is pretty rubbish, as most surveillance video is.

    I’m not at all convinced that George is a racist. I’m more concerned about whether the response by the legal system was racist. That’s going to be pretty nigh impossible to prove, though, unless it comes out for sure that the police did bugger about with the evidence and lead witnesses.

    I think George probably exaggerated what happened that night, which is a natural human tendency, particularly when one tells the same story over and over, as the police would have made him do.

    Dan, clearly, is not only convinced that George is a saint and a martyr but also that Trayvon was some kind of racist demon drug zombie who enjoyed pulling the legs off puppies in his spare time. Which is as unhelpful an attitude as that of the Martin family’s lawyer.

    (Oh, and Spike Lee may make great movies but he is, as he confirmed today, a complete and utter berk.)

  • Dan

    “Let’s refine my charge against you, then.”—Dreadful

    So then, I knock it out of the park, we don’t bother to score it, It’s just time for a new pitch.

    I’d be delighted to further assist you on this journey of discovery, but I think there should be some acknowledgement of the argument you just lost before turning attention in a new direction.

    “You produced a single paper (a literature review)”—Dreadful

    It would be harder to produce papers that disagree. That is what being “mainstream” means. The document you call “literature review” is extraordinary for the fact that it is an attempt by preeminent scientists to circumvent a corrupt media that “misstates current scientific evidence” and “dismisses some conclusions as discredited when they are actually firmly supported”

    To be fair there were seven experts invited to sign the statement that refused and explicitly stated (actually selected a reason from a list) that the statement did not represent the mainstream.

    There were four others who chose “agreed with statement but feared that signing it would jeopordize their position or project”

    Think for a moment about what just the existence of a document like “Mainstream Science on Intelligence”– and that some scientists fear to sign it– means for a society.

    “Dan, clearly, is not only convinced that George is a saint…”—Dreadful

    lol. If George was the violent aggressor, I hope he gets locked up. Even if he were white. Which he isn’t.

    I think he’s probably clearly innocent, and that’s why no charges were filed. There is no reason to think that people go out of their way risking their jobs and letting killers off the hook because they can’t control some mythical racist evilness deep in their heart. Silly really.

    Boy though, we sure have learned a lot more since this thread was launched. George looks to be less than 200lb. Trayvon was listed on the report as 160. I guess some don’t consider a bloody nose (and bleeding from the back of the head) as being “beaten bloody”, but even though most liberal accounts left that established evidence out of their earlier coverage, they are sure to bring it up if they don’t see it in a grainy security film.

    When will those Black Panthers be arrested for the felony of soliciting kidnapping? Or do they have immunity to act like some kind of reverse klansmen. Do we get to see them as poll watchers again in November?

  • Igor

    It’s obvious that the Sanford police executed a coverup in defense of Zimmerman. Regardless of anything else, they should have secured the weapon and gathered forensics on Zimmerman and Martin both, as well as the crime scene. Anything less is obstruction of justice and dereliction of duty.

    The only question of the police action is whether they should be fired or imprisoned.

    Zimmereman looks to be a vigilante, walking around with a chip on his shoulder and a gun in his waistband, looking for someone with which to pick a fight.

    The amazing thing is that the killer is still walking around with his gun.

    Even when a policeman is involved in a fatal shooting it’s SOP to secure the weapon and put the officer on administrative leave.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    I’d be delighted to further assist you on this journey of discovery, but I think there should be some acknowledgement of the argument you just lost before turning attention in a new direction.

    I haven’t lost the argument. I’ve presented and cited reasons why yours is not as watertight as you say it is, and why the conclusions you draw from it are not necessarily correct. You’ve not shown the slightest inclination to consider them but instead simply either ignore them, dismiss them out of hand or ascribe politically-motivated dishonesty to their authors. Acknowledgement my arse.

    It’s as if you were the prosecuting attorney at a murder trial, and instead of bringing forth an array of evidence, cross-examining witnesses, presenting your case and so forth, you simply walk over to the bench with the ballistics report, plonk it down, say “I rest my case”, then walk out of the courtroom and back to your office, pausing only to give the court the finger on the way out.

    It would be harder to produce papers that disagree.

    Not really. I did, your own version of reality notwithstanding.

    Even if he were white. Which he isn’t.

    “One drop of blood”, eh, Dan?

    I think he’s probably clearly innocent, and that’s why no charges were filed.

    I think he’s probably innocent too, at least of premeditated homicide. But he’s clearly not clearly innocent, or we (and millions of others) wouldn’t be having this discussion.

    even though most liberal accounts left that established evidence out of their earlier coverage, they are sure to bring it up if they don’t see it in a grainy security film.

    Some interestingly twisted reasoning there, Dan.

    When will those Black Panthers be arrested for the felony of soliciting kidnapping? Or do they have immunity to act like some kind of reverse klansmen. Do we get to see them as poll watchers again in November?

    I don’t know. Perhaps you should ask the Washington DC district attorney’s office.

  • Dan

    “I’ve presented and cited reasons why yours is not as watertight as you say it is”—Dreadful

    You’ve done no such thing. Either race realist thinking is a legitimate, and accepted part of current scientific inquiry or it isn’t. You simply dodge the issue altogether.

    I don’t think you realize how out of touch with current scientific evidence you are. You are common though. Being the curious psychological researchers that they are, scientists have even advanced theories to explain your specific pathological denial. Terms like “ethnomasochism” and “competitive altruism” have entered scientific lexicon.

    “One drop of blood”, eh, Dan?”—Dreadful

    Reportedly, George has always self identified as hispanic. Naturally he would since hispanic is a privileged status. It’s like I said before, if he had been responsible for some cure of disease, or heroism of some sort, the media would have branded him “hispanic” from the beginning.

    “But he’s clearly not clearly innocent, or we (and millions of others) wouldn’t be having this discussion.”—Dreadful

    Yea, millions of people who’s only knowledge of the incident comes from blatantly biased, hysterical media accounts that show us childhood photos of the victim, and label the alleged, obviously hispanic, shooter as white.

    “I don’t know. Perhaps you should ask the Washington DC district attorney’s office.”—Dreadful

    They are probably too busy supplying guns to mexican narcoterrorists. Besides, black panther retards are part of the “my people” Eric Holder apparently serves exclusively.

    “The amazing thing is that the killer is still walking around with his gun.”—Igor

    He’ll need it to shoot black panther “bounty hunters” who apparantly are not subject to criminal statutes.

  • Daniel Lockwood

    The law is the problem. It allows facts related to a homocide to NOT be considered by a JURY & judge – unless the victims family can convince the public to get the attorney general involved, etc, in the court of public opinion. It is a fundamental reason why our justice system is intended to weigh these issues in court rather than public opinion. This law allows any corrupt police dept or detective (I am not necessarily saying that happened here, but the facts support it) to dismiss charges and avoid a trial – one person could do this and bias is ever-present. Deadly force must be exhibited in a self defence when the defendant uses daedly force, and while we don’t know for sure, it really, really looks like the only deady force was used by Zimmerman, based on the cell phone recording, the 911 call tape, the video of zimmerman not at all looking like he was in any distress a few minutes later when taken in after the event. Zimmerman was not obliged or even under recommendation to be armed in this situation. Sometimes, common sense and what is right vs wrong needs to be weighed.

  • Dan

    I think the fact that there hasn’t been any charge filed after a week or so of hysteria is significant somehow. They might be considering the severity of the charge.

    The Prosecutor has to weigh the odds of success for something beyond some simple reckless manslaughter type charge. But then, with the frenzy being whipped up among the mob, anything less may lead to rioting.

    Actually there already has been flash mob convienience store looting from frustrated “justice” seekers. On Fox News of course.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    Either race realist thinking is a legitimate, and accepted part of current scientific inquiry or it isn’t.

    “Race realist thinking” is a philosophy that you take away from the science. Whether it’s legitimate or not depends on whether it’s supported by the evidence, which I don’t think it is.

    You simply dodge the issue altogether.

    I’ve not dodged the issue. I’ve stated quite clearly my supported opinion that genetic differences associated with “race” are very insignificant indeed compared to other factors.

    Terms like “ethnomasochism” and “competitive altruism” have entered scientific lexicon.

    Really? I entered “ethnomasochism” into Google Scholar and came up with practically nothing. And “competitive altruism” means nothing like what you seem to think it means.

    millions of people who’s only knowledge of the incident comes from blatantly biased, hysterical media accounts that show us childhood photos of the victim

    Or from the 911 recordings, police reports and witness statements that have been made public.

    They are probably too busy supplying guns to mexican narcoterrorists. Besides, black panther retards are part of the “my people” Eric Holder apparently serves exclusively.

    Eric Holder is not the Washington, DC district attorney. Malik Zulu Shabazz, a DC-based lawyer, is the current leader of the New Black Panther Party, and that was the reason for my suggestion.

  • Zingzing

    Dan, you’re not doing your race any favors…

  • http://destlife.blogspot.co.uk/ Stephen Ogunniyi

    Where in the world is Zimmerman? Seriously.

  • Igor

    #85-Daniel: No, the law is NOT the problem. The Florida legislators who contrived and passed the law said that Zimmerman is not protected by it.

    Clearly, a big part of the problem is that the Sanford police are incompetent (or crooked), were not trained, and/or perpetrated a coverup.

    Of course, a big part is the ambiguity that allowed Zimmerman to think it was OK to hunt down and kill a human being.

  • Dan

    “”Race realist thinking” is a philosophy that you take away from the science. Whether it’s legitimate or not depends on whether it’s supported by the evidence, which I don’t think it is.”—Dreadful

    It doesn’t matter what you think. Why would we be arguing about what you think? The argument you lost was about what experts in the related fields think. And “mainstream” thinking among the experts is that:

    “Intelligence… can be measured, and intelligence tests measure it well. They are among the most accurate (in technical terms, reliable and valid) of all psychological tests and assessments.”

    “Intelligence tests are not culturally biased against American blacks or other native-born, English-speaking peoples in the U.S. Rather, IQ scores predict equally accurately for all such Americans, regardless of race and social class.”

    “The bell curve for whites is centered roughly around IQ 100; the bell curve for American blacks roughly around 85; and those for different subgroups of Hispanics roughly midway between those for whites and blacks.”

    “IQ is strongly related, probably more so than any other single measurable human trait, to many important educational, occupational, economic, and social outcomes.”

    “Heritability estimates range from 0.4 to 0.8 (on a scale from 0 to 1), most thereby indicating that genetics plays a bigger role than does environment in creating IQ differences among individuals.”

    “There is no persuasive evidence that the IQ bell curves for different racial-ethnic groups are converging.”

    “As large national surveys continue to show, black 17- year-olds perform, on the average, more like white 13-year-olds in reading, math, and science, with Hispanics in between.”

    Now, do I really need to match these “conclusions regarded as mainstream among researchers on intelligence, in particular, on the nature, origins, and practical consequences of individual and group differences…” up with corresponding tenets of Race Realist Theory?

    If ever we have an argument about what you personally think, then you get to win. I promise.

    “The Florida legislators who contrived and passed the law said that Zimmerman is not protected by it.”—Igor

    Only if Zimmerman is lying about being attacked as he retreated.

    Meanwhile, sane people are reminded yet again of the true nature of 90% of all interracial violence between whites and blacks as a black Tyrone rapes and beats to death an 85 year old white woman

  • Igor

    Dan looks like just another garden variety racist. I’d read that article on “Race Realism” awhile ago and found it provincial.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    I’m inclined to agree, Igor, much as he dresses it up to appear reasonable. And especially after the sign-off paragraph of his last comment.

    He keeps repeating that pet paper of his over and over again as if it were The Last Word in genetic research, ignoring the multiple occasions on which I’ve cited the valid scientific objections to those findings – note that these are not papers published before Dan’s pet, but responses TO it – and ignoring the truth that nothing in science is EVER the last word.

    We’re also up against Dan’s tendency to regard only the researchers he cites as intellectually honest, while everyone else is just motivated by political correctness, and his inability to admit that he is wrong about anything whatsoever (see e.g. comments 84 and 87).

    He’s forfeited being taken seriously, at least in my book.

  • Jordan Richardson

    You’re just coming around to that conclusion now, Doc?

  • Daniel Lockwood

    #90 – Igor, the Stand Your Ground law is the reason the police did not charge him. It will be used to defend Zimmerman if charges ever do get filed, only b/c of the family having to persuade publicly. I believe that if this law was not passed, Zimmerman would be behing bars, and he would be the one has to prove he had a legit reason for homocide. And one person would not be able to decide it – rather, a jury. There is a reason for having jurys – so attorneys can find a less-biased group of people to weigh the evidence. Now, we have irrelevent character testimony on tv while a killer is free.

  • Dan

    “I’d read that article on “Race Realism” awhile ago and found it provincial.”—Igor

    Alert readers may be able to spot Igor’s prevarication by noting that no “article” on Race Realism has been introduced.

    Rather, the document in question is a joint statement by scientific researchers invited to be signatories based on their unparrelleled preeminence in the field of human biodiversity and genetics.

    “Mainstream Science on Intelligence” is a profound and historic document in that it not only states what is considered factual and dominant opinion among experts, but it also calls out a mendacious campaign by an agenda driven media to suppress scientific truth.

    What does it say about a society that such a document exists?

    Although Dreadful would argue correctly—but only on scientific conclusions he disagrees with—that “nothing in science is ever the last word”, specific scientific conclusions are not the argument that is before him.

    One can argue the environmental only position, but one can’t argue that environmental only is the dominant opinion, or more recently, even a fringe opinion among the people who actually do the research. That is what this document exposed years ago.

    “He’s forfeited being taken seriously, at least in my book”—Dreadful

    That would be more believable if you didn’t expend so much energy weaseling new parameters for a simple debate (is race realism theory firmly supported by science?) that was decided over a week ago.

    Yet another reminder of the true nature of interracial violence recently happened in Florida as Two white British tourists were gunned down with the black murderer later bragging to his white hating friends about how they were first made to beg for their lives. The two young white guys didn’t look like what Obamas son would look like.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    Alert readers may be able to spot Igor’s prevarication by noting that no “article” on Race Realism has been introduced.

    Rather, the document in question is a joint statement by scientific researchers…

    …which originally appeared as an article in the Wall Street Journal in 1994.

    “Mainstream Science on Intelligence” is a profound and historic document in that it not only states what is considered factual and dominant opinion among experts

    Not according to Schlinger (2003), who commented: “With some exceptions, the list of cosigners reads like a Who’s Who of those theorists […] who have continued Spearman’s tradition of factor analyzing intelligence test scores to generate a theory of general intelligence – g – and some of whom […] believe that behavior genetic research supports the conclusion that g is highly heritable, and others of whom […] have written highly emotionally charged articles arguing that the research supports the conclusion that group differences on intelligence tests reflect genetic differences.”

    …but it also calls out a mendacious campaign by an agenda driven media to suppress scientific truth.

    Where does it do this?

    What does it say about a society that such a document exists?

    Asks Dan, immediately after claiming the existence of a concerted campaign to suppress “the truth”…

    Although Dreadful would argue correctly—but only on scientific conclusions he disagrees with

    Not at all. I try to follow the approach of the Skeptics Society: “All facts in science are provisional and subject to challenge, and therefore skepticism is a method leading to provisional conclusions. Some claims, such as water dowsing, ESP, and creationism, have been tested (and failed the tests) often enough that we can provisionally conclude that they are not valid. Other claims, such as hypnosis, the origins of language, and black holes, have been tested but results are inconclusive so we must continue formulating and testing hypotheses and theories until we can reach a provisional conclusion.”

    specific scientific conclusions are not the argument that is before him.

    No, they are more like specific Dan-tific conclusions.

    That would be more believable if you didn’t expend so much energy weaseling new parameters for a simple debate (is race realism theory firmly supported by science?) that was decided over a week ago.

    By a certain self-appointed referee.

    Yet another reminder of the true nature of interracial violence recently happened in Florida

    Funnily enough, I’ve been following this story in the mendacious, agenda-driven mainstream media for a couple of weeks. What kept you?

    And how about this reminder of the true nature of interracial violence? Any thoughts?

  • Dan

    “Not according to Schlinger (2003), who commented: “With some exceptions, the list of cosigners reads like a Who’s Who of those theorists…”—Dreadful

    Linda Gottfredson, professor of educational psychology at the University of Delaware organized the umm, “article”. It’s not a secret how the list of scientists invited to sign were selected. “individuals elected as fellows (for their distinguished contributions to psychology)…” etc. All very fair and impartial. She did not expect unanymity and she didn’t get it.

    I think Schlingers description of “highly emotionally charged articles” probably reflects more his emotional reaction to the valid scientific papers than it does the authors of those papers who are simply stating results of research.

    The reason the “list of cosigners reads like a Who’s Who of those theorists” he disagrees with is because the notion that human intelligence is highly heritable is “what’s what” as the dominant theory among intelligence researchers.

    “Where does it do this?”—Dreadful

    The prologue to the statement “Mainstream Science on Intelligence” states: “many commentators have offered opinions about human intelligence that misstate current scientific evidence. Some conclusions dismissed in the media as discredited are actually firmly supported.” The mendacious media campaign to suppress scientific truth was the sole reason for the historic document.

    “I try to follow the approach of the Skeptics Society”—Dreadful

    How embarrassing it must be for you then, to learn that Vincent Sarich, a cosigner to “Mainstream Science on Intelligence” is on the Skeptics Societies editorial advisory board. And that he and Frank Miele, a Senior Editor who has written many articles and reviews for the magazine over the past decade, co authored a race realist perspective book entitled “The Reality of Human Differences”.

    “Funnily enough, I’ve been following this story in the mendacious, agenda-driven mainstream media for a couple of weeks. What kept you?”—Dreadful

    I could only find it in British media. But I have found this article where NBC admits to editing Zimmermans 911 call to make it appear he is racial profiling.

    “And how about this reminder of the true nature of interracial violence? Any thoughts?”—Dreadful

    Well yes, my first thought is that there is no suspect mentioned in the case. No reason at all to think that it is interracial violence. If anything it has the smell of an honor killing being covered up by an Islamic imbecile. Who leaves notes of explanation for murder?

  • Dan

    Meanwhile, sane people are reminded once again about the true nature of 90% of all interracial violence between whites and blacks. These two black teens brutally hammer hacked a white guy about 6 miles from where the zimmerman trayvon incident took place.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    The reason the “list of cosigners reads like a Who’s Who of those theorists” he disagrees with is because the notion that human intelligence is highly heritable is “what’s what” as the dominant theory among intelligence researchers.

    Dan, as I’ve pointed out time and again, that statement was written in 1997. You continue to pretend that it is the Absolute Last Word in intelligence research, and that nothing has been published since that calls any of it into question, even though I have given you several citations to works published after 1997 that do.

    How embarrassing it must be for you then, to learn that Vincent Sarich, a cosigner to “Mainstream Science on Intelligence” is on the Skeptics Societies editorial advisory board. And that he and Frank Miele, a Senior Editor who has written many articles and reviews for the magazine over the past decade, co authored a race realist perspective book entitled “The Reality of Human Differences”.

    Am I supposed to be impressed by this appeal to authority?

    But I have found this article where NBC admits to editing Zimmermans 911 call to make it appear he is racial profiling.

    Since we all heard the unedited tape several weeks ago, so what?

    No reason at all to think that it is interracial violence.

    The El Cajon police seem to disagree with you.

    If anything it has the smell of an honor killing being covered up by an Islamic imbecile.

    An honor killing for what reason? Mrs Alawadi was by all accounts a modest, pious woman and the Iraqi community in El Cajon is peaceful. At this stage, there are less grounds for you to conclude this than that it was a hate crime. Still, you just go right ahead shoehorning everything to fit your personal narrative…

    Who leaves notes of explanation for murder?

    This isn’t an Agatha Christie novel, Dan. Imbeciles. Of whatever stripe.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    Meanwhile, sane people are reminded once again about the true nature of 90% of all interracial violence…

    You got any statistics more recent than 1994, Dan?

    Here’s some from 2009.

  • Dan

    “Dan, as I’ve pointed out time and again, that statement was written in 1997. You continue to pretend that it is the Absolute Last Word in intelligence research”—Dreadful

    Well I certainly wouldn’t need to be the one this is pointed out to. I’m the one who posted it in the first place.

    And yes, It was the last word in intelligence research. The environmental position has been in retreat ever since that turning point, and with the explosive advancements at the molecular level, it’s over. Or excuse me, “provisionally” over.

    “Am I supposed to be impressed by this appeal to authority?”—Dreadful

    “Emabarrassed” was how I put it. Because it was an authority you picked, not me.

    “Since we all heard the unedited tape several weeks ago, so what?”—Dreadful

    I think it got picked up on other networks and was played for a period of days. They’re going to investigate themselves though. So…

    Breitbart was accused for much less than the very precise splicing job NBC pulled.

    I didn’t see the race of any suspect, or even that there was a suspect in the article. Are you sure you’re not just making an assumption?

    “Still, you just go right ahead shoehorning everything to fit your personal narrative…”—Dreadful

    You’re the one who seems to have concluded the interracial shoehorning. My theory seems as likely.

    I’m not even sure what race person you are saying you think did it. Statistically it would most likely not be a white.

    “This isn’t an Agatha Christie novel, Dan. Imbeciles. Of whatever stripe.”—Dreadful

    agreed.

  • Dan

    “Here’s some from 2009.”—Dreadful

    Those are Hate Crime statistics Dreadful. They are just another example of systemic anti white(hetero, male) bias.

    They are nearly insignificant in the overall. And of the paltry 4,793 hate crime offenses against persons, 45% were only for intimidation.

    The clawhammer attacking blacks, the psychopathic tourist killer, or even the pig that raped and murdered the 85 year old grandmother will not get a “hate crime” penalty.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    The environmental position has been in retreat ever since that turning point, and with the explosive advancements at the molecular level, it’s over.

    Not sure why you insist that “it’s over” when virtually everything from a reliable source I’ve researched talks about an ongoing debate, nor what molecular links to intelligence are supposed to have to do with race, but whatever floats your boat.

    Because it was an authority you picked, not me.

    I wasn’t appealing to authority, just stating the intellectual standard I endeavor to hold myself to.

    I was, however, intrigued to notice that this back issue of Skeptic magazine, while containing a dissenting article by Sarich, comes down rather heavily on The Bell Curve.

    Are you sure you’re not just making an assumption?

    Take that up with the El Cajon police. I’m just going by what they’re calling it.

    My theory seems as likely.

    To you.

    They are just another example of systemic anti white(hetero, male) bias.

    Of course they are, Dan. Of course they are.

  • zingzing

    “They are just another example of systemic anti white(hetero, male) bias.”

    and yet every word you say makes me a little less happy about the skin, proclivities and gender into which i was born…

    it’s not guilt so much as shame, and not shame so much as disgust (not with me, with you). do you parade these opinions and attitudes around in public, or only under anonymity?

    i can’t imagine it does you much good. i can’t imagine spending the only life i’ll have being bothered by such things. such a waste of time. then again, i’m pointlessly arguing with a bigot. sigh…

  • Igor

    “Dan” is simply unbelievable. And, for me at least, not worth reading.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dan –

    Got kids? Chances are, someday some of them or their progeny will be having kids with someone who’s not lily-white. So, when that happens, will you reject your not-quite-pure-white grandkids? Or will you take them into your arms and love them dearly like most grandparents (like my own still-somewhat racist mother) do anyway?

  • Igor

    There’s no doubt that racism is still powerful in the USA. But it would be greatly reduced if the police could be dissuaded from racism. It seems clear that the Sanford police were racist in their treatment of the Martin case: they screwed up the crime forensics and let the killer go. Perhaps they coerced witnesses.

    Meanwhile, up in White Plains NY, the police proved that racism isn’t purely geographic by abusing and murdering an old black man in his home:

    truthdig


    “My name is Kenneth Chamberlain. This is my sworn testimony. White Plains police are going to come in here and kill me.”

    And that’s just what they did.

    In the early hours of Saturday, Nov. 19, 2011, U.S. Marine veteran Kenneth Chamberlain Sr. accidentally hit his LifeAid medical-alert pendant, presumably while sleeping. The 68-year-old retired corrections officer had a heart condition, but wasn’t in need of help that dawn. Within two hours, the White Plains, N.Y., police department broke down his apartment door and shot him dead. Chamberlain was African-American. As with Trayvon Martin, the black teen recently killed in Florida, there are recordings of the events, recordings that include a racial slur directed at the victim.

    Ken Jr. repeated what he heard his father say on the tape: “He says, ‘I’m a 68-year-old man with a heart condition. Why are you doing this to me?’ … You also hear him pleading with the officers again, over and over. And at one point, that’s when the expletive is used by one of the police officers.”

    Meanwhile, in Missouri the enforcers of Mitts safety net treat african-americans like trash:

    Missouri


    Sunday, March 25, 2012 11:36 pm

    By Christine Byers / St. Louis Post-Dispatch (MCT) | 1 comment

    RICHMOND HEIGHTS, Mo. — Anna Brown wasn’t leaving the emergency room quietly.

    She yelled from a wheelchair at St. Mary’s Health Center security personnel and Richmond Heights police officers that her legs hurt so badly she couldn’t stand.
    *

    She had already been to two other hospitals that week in September, complaining of leg pain after spraining her ankle.

    This time, she refused to leave.

    A police officer arrested Brown for trespassing. He wheeled her out in handcuffs after a doctor said she was healthy enough to be locked up.

    Brown was 29. A mother who had lost custody of two children. Homeless. On Medicaid. And, an autopsy later revealed, dying from blood clots that started in her legs, then lodged in her lungs.

    She told officers she couldn’t get out of the police car, so they dragged her by her arms into the station. They left her lying on the concrete floor of a jail cell, moaning and struggling to breathe. Just 15 minutes later, a jail worker found her cold to the touch.

    Officers suspected Brown was using drugs. Autopsy results showed she had no drugs in her system.

    There’s no denying that the old racist brutes of bygone days have sought and found refuges in the police departments across the nation. In the police departaments of our poorly managed cities they have found ideal situations where they can beat and shoot everyday citizens, and in particular they have open season on blacks.

    And now, since 9/11/2001, they have been liberated from previous federal civil rights restrictions by the Joint Terrorism Task Force (JTTF) arrangements which give them federal funds to buy exotic police toys and empower them to beat demonstrators and kill funny looking people, like Muslims, and even to invade and kill our own blacks, under cover of doing something noble against terrorism.

  • Dan

    “I wasn’t appealing to authority, just stating the intellectual standard I endeavor to hold myself to.”—Dreadful

    Yep, you appealed to the authority of what you consider a superior “intellectual standard” as reason to reject a race realist perspective, and then discovered that among the people who set that standard you endeavor to hold yourself to were race realists. That’s why it should have been embarrassing for you.

    “Take that up with the El Cajon police. I’m just going by what they’re calling it”—Dreadful

    They are not calling it “interracial” as you did. They aren’t calling it anything because they don’t have a suspect. At least not one they’re talking about.

    “Not sure…what molecular links to intelligence are supposed to have to do with race”—Dreadful

    Yes, you often demonstrate a lack of understanding—often of a fundamental level– about things you argue forcefully about. It’s a sure sign of irrationality.

    As I said, the case for heritability of intelligence, and the intractability of racial differences that this suggests, has only continued the trend of confirmation since the study of genetics has went molecular.

    Cancer denying scientists representing the cigarette industry have a more persuasive argument than do heritability denialists.

    here is how the “ongoing debate” is going lately.

    “will you reject your not-quite-pure-white grandkids?”—Glenn

    Does it make you angry that I might want my grandchildren to share genetic similarities? See if you can rationalize an answer for having an interest in my preferences.

    CNN says it shouldn’t have reported that George said “coon”. They’re saying he said “cold”.

  • Dan

    Dr. Dreadful, It looks like your Iraqi hate crime is turning out to be an inside job. Like I thought.

    Most racially aware whites understand that accusations of hate crime most often don’t pan out. Such an absurd pretense. As if.
    But yet, true believers abound.

  • zingzing

    “Does it make you angry that I might want my grandchildren to share genetic similarities?”

    erm, if they’re your grandkids, they will share genetic similarities with you, no matter who screws your kids.

    “heritability denialists”

    when did anyone deny that you can inherit traits?

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    Dr. Dreadful, It looks like your Iraqi hate crime is turning out to be an inside job. Like I thought.

    Congratulations, counsel. But why are you gloating at me rather than the El Cajon police?

  • Dan

    “Congratulations, counsel. But why are you gloating at me rather than the El Cajon police?”—Dreadful

    I was “gloating” before it turned out to be a hoax. As I said, you presented it as “interracial”. The police never commented on race at all. You see things that aren’t there.

    It still could be interracial, depending on what the girls boyfriend is. Doubt it though.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    you appealed to the authority of what you consider a superior “intellectual standard” as reason to reject a race realist perspective, and then discovered that among the people who set that standard you endeavor to hold yourself to were race realists.

    Among a larger number of others who are not. As with any large body of people, there is a spectrum of views. Why is that cause for embarrassment?

    Yes, you often demonstrate a lack of understanding—often of a fundamental level– about things you argue forcefully about. It’s a sure sign of irrationality.

    I would have thought that your constant obfuscation, goalpost-shifting and ignoring of inconvenient evidence was more irrational.

    As I said, the case for heritability of intelligence, and the intractability of racial differences that this suggests, has only continued the trend of confirmation since the study of genetics has went molecular.

    Never said anything about intelligence not being heritable, just that you attach far, far too much importance to the heredity aspect. You advance the argument that environment has little to no impact on intelligence, despite the fact that a principal measure of intelligence used by researchers has been IQ tests. As anyone who’s taken one knows, you have to have a certain amount of education even to understand what is being asked of you.

    And yet you’re asking us to accept that a person with a genetically predetermined high level of intelligence (measured by what, exactly?) can ace the thing even if he never went to school because his thickie parents thought education was a waste of time?

    And by the way, what does any of this have to do with your constant references to black-on-white crime? Are those hate crimes, even though according to you there’s no such thing? And is a propensity to commit crime heritable as well?

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    CNN says it shouldn’t have reported that George said “coon”. They’re saying he said “cold”.

    Punks“, actually.

    To my ear, the speech on the “enhanced” audio is even less distinguishable than the original. It certainly doesn’t sound like a word beginning with the letter P, at any rate.

  • S.T.M

    Doc: Dan says: “I think there should be some acknowledgement of the argument you just lost” etc, ad infinitum.

    Mate, I just noticed you trying your best to be little more than a voice of reason on this but it begs the question: why even bother with a response to fallacious arguments mounted in support of questionable views propogated by arrogant, ignorant arseholes.

    I’ll mount an argument now: 98 percent of the rest of the world thinks Americans holding views like Dan’s are arrogant, ignorant aresholes who need a good hard smack in the mouth to shut them up.

    Oh look, I just won that.

    What a fair-dinkum p…k

  • zingzing

    i would hope the world wouldn’t differentiate between arrogant, ignorant american racists and racists of any other nationality. a racist is a racist is a racist. although i guess nationality does somewhat decide who you’re going to be racist against if you’re going to be racist. we’ve all got our proclivities…

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    What a fair-dinkum p…k

    “Punk”, right, Stan? ;-)

  • S.T.M

    Yeah, that’s it.

    You know how I feel Doc, I really can’t stand punks.

    And zing, this is a debate taking place in America … don’t try to defend the indefensible. You know this is a view widely held in the US.

    It’s actually not the ignorance or racism that’s so annoying, as everyone’s entitled to their own opinions, right, wrong or plain ridiculous. It’s the arrogance displayed in presenting the narrative that seems peculiarly American.

    It’s that that’s mostly cringeworthy. Of course, I know what Doc’s up to here as he’s good at getting people to hoist their petard but then why even bother giving p…ks the space to bang on about their agenda on what is – close to being – a mainstream blog?

    There are far better places for the exchange of views by those whose moral compass consistently points in the wrong direction. Those places are usually inhabited by people with the same kind of poisonous agendas.

    We should encourage them to stay there.

  • zingzing

    “You know this is a view widely held in the US.”

    i don’t know that. i hope not. dan is a rare breed around here. i’ve met several people like him in my life, but i wouldn’t say it’s a “widely held” view by any means. maybe there is more of this shit here than in other places (although other places have their own version, with different targets), but i don’t think americans are at all special or exceptional in their racism. i’ve lived abroad, and i’ve seen racism in many different countries. sometimes, i’ve seen it happen and not even be challenged (such as in china, a country i really enjoyed, but they were so damned racist).

    “it’s the arrogance displayed in presenting the narrative that seems peculiarly American.”

    you’re just as bad. you seem to believe all the worst bits you hear about america. have a bag of salt.

  • zingzing

    it happens in the great united kingdom as well. and in australia. so glass houses, etc.

    it’s not so much “defending the indefensible,” which i was not doing… i was only saying that dan is no more a good representation of america than any racist in any country would be.

    to think so would be… almost racist. where’s canada?

  • S.T.M

    I dunno why blokes like Dan don’t just keep it real and honest.

    “I don’t like blacks or other minorities because I’m white, we founded this country, they’re far too different to us, don’t fit in and thave no place in it” is far more honest than tossing up pseudo-scientific nonsense in support of a white-supremacist or anti-black, anti-minority agenda.

    I can come at a view that states honestly a section of society wants to keep their lilywhite blood and European genes pure as the driven snow (fair enough, no pun intended), or one that says whites and colonialism and neo-colonialism aren’t responsible for all the f..k-ups around the world (they’re not; the ledger is in favour of whites on that one, especially when you look at what’s been given in return: parliamentary democracy, rule of law, education, infrastructure, etc, and just look at how well many of Britain’s former colonies are doing) … just not one that seeks to use bullshit racist arguments to prop up an agenda.

    That was the problem with Hitler and the Nazis. Instead of saying what they really felt – “We don’t like Jews because they’ve got all the money and are poisoning our precious Germanic blood and destroying our way of life” – they used pseudo-science to justify the means to an end.

    Most reasonable people saw through it then, and they do now. The way Dan frames his argument about whites, blacks, hispanics, etc, doesn’t make him a race realist, whatever that is – just a racist. Any reasonable person would form that opinion based on the purported views of Dan, which are written here.

    Why not just come out and say it Dan, and leave it at that. Is it because you don’t have the orchestras?

  • S.T.M

    Zing: “you seem to believe all the worst bits you hear about america”.

    Well, no. You seem to forget that I’m not arguing from a position of ignorance.

    I’ve spent long enough in the US to know those views are widely held.

    And yes, those view are also held here and in the UK and Canada and parts of Europe, so it’s nothing special in that regard.

    Like I say, zing, it’s the pure arrogance behind it that makes it so … so … American.

    And if you think a majority pf people all over the world don’t think of Americans generally as deluded, conceited, arrogant and ignorant, then you’d be sorely disappointed.

    Usually when people almost universally hold such views, there’s a reason for that: it’s because there’s a bit more than a grain of truth in it.

  • S.T.M

    At least I’m being honest. There’s a certain section of American society I dislike intensely. Sadly, they ARE representative of much of America. I have no qualms about telling you my view on that. I’m not that keen on the arrogance of some Germans either, or that of some Indians (so does that me half a racist?), or certain people from the middle-east.

    Likewise for some Aussies, of various colours and creeds, including whites. There are some I wouldn’t have sitting at my table.

    But none of these views has anything to do with skin colour; it’s based on my own experience.

  • zingzing

    “You seem to forget that I’m not arguing from a position of ignorance.”

    i think you think you aren’t. but i think you’re ignorant. you may have run into some assholes, but i don’t think racist views are “widely held” in america. that’s just the people you associated with, if that’s even true. i’d question who you were hanging out with.

    and when you speak with such conviction about a place you apparently know so little about (and i’ve come to the conclusion that america is not your strong point), i wonder if the arrogance isn’t on your side. most americans get along quite well with other races. i’m sure there are millions of americans that don’t, but this is a big country. there’s lots of different people. sure, we’ve got our problems with each other, but for the most part we get along, live, work, drink, fuck and seem to enjoy life together in this country. funny how that works.

    but shit. i suppose i should ask what your definition of “widely held” is. you’re coming off (to me at least) like you think MOST americans think that way. which is stupid. but maybe you’re just saying that there’s a lot of americans with racist ideas. i’ll agree with that.

    “Usually when people almost universally hold such views, there’s a reason for that: it’s because there’s a bit more than a grain of truth in it.”

    ok, australian. you think you’re immune? i’ll show you a cliche. this is a cliche.

  • zingzing

    ahem. in the end, stan, i find you to be one of the most arrogantly ignorant people i’ve ever run across when it comes to america and their opinion of it. i’ll agree with you on many points (about america and other things), but you seem to have this big blind spot which doesn’t quite fit in with the rest of you. i say this as an american, and not a particularly patriotic one (except when it comes to you, it seems): you don’t seem to know shit about america, no matter what you claim.

    i’ve never been to australia, so i won’t regale you with stories of how shitty and stupid and evil your people are, but i have been to england (lived there for a while,) and wales and scotland, and i assure you that your stock is just as flawed as ours is.

    who knows, one day i may come to australia and really love it. but please don’t claim ultimate knowledge of a place you plainly barely know.

  • S.T.M

    One thing I’ve noticed about you zing … you’re happy to put shit on many of your fellow Americans, but when a “ferner” does it, you arc up deluxe.

    You have a glass jaw when it comes to that; I’ve watched you do it a million times on here.

    As to me being ignorant about what goes on in America, I’d suggest you must move in a very tight circle or, most likely, choose to keep your eyes and ears closed in regard to the painful truth of what’s going on around you.

    America is one of the most racist places I’ve been to. And I haven’t just been there once, for five minutes. There is no getting round it zing. It just is. Sorry if you don’t want to hear it.

    If saying it makes me ignorant and arrogant in your view, I’m happy to wear those monikers.

    But I don’t say America is shitty and stupid and evil, or its people. I’m saying there’s a certain section of the population that gives the rest of you a bad name.

    I’d suggest Aussies might have a similar reputation in some parts of the world too. I don’t have a problem with that view either since it’s also quite accurate. But in this debate, it’s about what goes on in America.

    Having said that, I’ve been constantly surprised by your seeming lack of knowledge about your own country and what goes on it.

    What I really think is: You are a dyed in the wool American patriot and don’t mind giving your own views of the US, but can’t handle it a non-American dishes a bit out.

    Like I say, I’ve watched you do it over and over …

  • S.T.M

    As for your visit to England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales and my stock being just as buggered as yours: that’d make sense because we’re all from the same stock anyway.

    I’m not saying racist crap doesn’t exist elsewhere. It does. But it’s particularly strong in the US, for some reason. State laws banning people of different colours from using the same shithouses, diners, and bus seats right up to the 1960s might have something to do with it.

    I don’t see how you can choose to attack the messenger without seeing the truth.

    There is no such thing as post-racial America. It’s as riven as it ever was; it’s just a bit more subtle these days.

  • S.T.M

    Zing: “you don’t seem to know shit about america, no matter what you claim”.

    No, of course Americans aren’t arrogant.

  • Clavos

    There is no such thing as post-racial America. It’s as riven as it ever was; it’s just a bit more subtle these days.

    QFT, mate.

  • Igor

    Dan is typical of racists faced with a Reversal Of Fortunes. They used to be the top dogs in American society and they are really stung by their fall from power and confrontation with invidious moral comparison.

    When I was a boy EVERYONE was racist! Racism was like the air that we breathed. It was everywhere. Even in the nice middleclass northern climes that I came from. Our neighborhood was lily white. There were NO (zero) dark-skinned people in our neighborhood. Not one colored person in my school, not one in my brothers highschool. Not one in our church, or any other church. They existed, but in isolated neighborhoods and schools and churches. Truly isolated. Even the streetcar lines were separate but equal. In that metro area of a million people you could live your whole life and never meet or even see a black person.

    Children were taught early and persistently the catechisms of racism. A child knew that this was a part of domestic education.

    People used derogatory expressions openly. It was taken for granted. It was assumed that black people were all those bad things that people like my mother said they were. My mother was the aficionado of racism. She could tell you everything wrong with every (other) race.

    But mom had a reversal of fortune! My dad retired, demolishing her domestic monopoly (over which she ruled with an iron hand) and that drove her out of the house to conquer new worlds, so she got a clerks job at a popular downtown store and that threw her into the middle of the maelstrom of the diverse society which quiet thoughtful Americans, horrified by Nazi Germany and it’s racist example, were creating.

    But her reaction was to fall in love! She absolutely loved the black women she worked with and their families. She gossiped endlessly and came home with wonderful stories about all these fabulous people she met and worked with, their families, their successes, their troubles, etc.

    Maybe she eventually realized that her children had long left racism behind, following dads example of simply quietly Doing The Right Thing.

    But there are some shreds of the deeply ingrained racism of past days still extant in our society. Often they are concentrated and expressed by the unfortunates who were taught young that if only they would cling steadfastly to those prejudices that a society of similar people would support them. Maybe they were stung by being passed over for a position they thought their steadfastness had qualified them for. Maybe the public accomplishment of an ‘other’ disappointed them. Maybe they just felt bad because the moral position of non-racists was deemed superior, and that diminished them. maybe they just HAD to prove somehow that they were right all along in the steadfastness they had embraced.

    They’d rather fight than switch. So that’s what they do. “Shoveling sh*t against the tide”, as we used to say.

  • STM

    Nice, you two. Thanls Clav. Igor: Same in my family, half a world away in an Australia grappling with its own racism. My parents were horrified when I told them I was going out with a Fijian girl and that it was serious. They never mentioned the word “black”. They just said things like, “You need to think about how your children might be treated”, “How people might view a mixed marriage”, etc. I just played along with it. What I didn’t tell them was that she was a WHITE Fijian. Lol. You should have seen their faces when she came round to our place one night and this English rose, whose family had been transplanted generations ago to the south Pacific, stood on the doorstep. Priceless. My mother saw the funny side of it; my father didn’t. He didn’t speak to me for weeks because he knew I’d caught him out in his own racist attitudes and he didn’t like it.

    My mother once accompanied my father on a business trip to the US, where they spent a week in Charleston. She got a taxi driver to drive her around for a tour of the city, and they went into the black neighbourhood where he lived; She met his family and they all had afternoon tea. Yes, it was completely by chance as she hailed the cab in the street but he was black. I believe they remained in touch. My mum wasn’t a really a racist; she’d never have countenanced doing anyone any harm or denying them the right to live a decent life or get a decent education … like Igor’s mum, she just went along with the thinking of the day, probably against her own better judgement. Perhaps had more people NOT done that, things wouldn’t have become the way they did.

  • Igor

    IMO the racists of America are forming a redoubt in the police departments. The police are the last stand of American racism. Even when that racism is against the norms of the local society.

    Here’s another example:

    New Jersey


    Albert W. Florence believes that black men who drive nice cars in New Jersey run a risk of being questioned by the police. For that reason, he kept handy a 2003 document showing he had paid a court-imposed fine stemming from a traffic offense, just in case.

    It did not seem to help.

    In March 2005, Mr. Florence was in the passenger seat of his BMW when a state trooper pulled it over for speeding. His wife, April, was driving. His 4-year-old son, Shamar, was in the back.

    The trooper ran a records search, and he found an outstanding warrant based on the supposedly unpaid fine. Mr. Florence showed the trooper the document, but he was arrested anyway.

    A failure to pay a fine is not a crime. It is, rather, what New Jersey law calls a nonindictable offense. Mr. Florence was nonetheless held for eight days in two counties on a charge of civil contempt before matters were sorted out.

    In the process, he was strip-searched twice.

    “Turn around,” he remembered being told while he stood naked before several guards and prisoners. “Squat and cough. Spread your cheeks.”

    The treatment stung. “I consider myself a man’s man,” said Mr. Florence, a finance executive for a car dealership. “Six-three. Big guy. It was humiliating. It made me feel less than a man. It made me feel not better than an animal.”

    IMO the police attitude has been purposely bred by years of widespread convention. Bigots, many of them from the fertile south, have spread throughout the police system. Notoriously, it was the policy of J. Edgar Hoover to recruit as agents southerners, whose bigotry could be depended upon. The poison of bigotry was spread through the anti-communism of the FBI, which freely spilled over into personal persecution of blacks like Robeson, ML King, Baldwin, Wright, Hughes, etc. Indeed, one of the major accomplishments of the black movement was to separate itself from communism and be “Purer than Caesars wife”, to the immense frustration of Americas bigots.

    If you have policemen among your friends you may have noticed that they affect a sort of white southern drawl, which they certainly didn’t learn in their homes, but which signals their membership among their compatriots.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    There was a very smart young fellow I trained at my old job who used to get pulled over quite often, for no apparent reason other than that he was a black guy driving a Mercedes. He was from a well-off, middle class family, he had an advanced degree and his dad was a criminology professor at the local state university. He didn’t stay with us for very long: I think the job wasn’t challenging enough for him, and he found another position better suited to his talents.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    If you have policemen among your friends you may have noticed that they affect a sort of white southern drawl, which they certainly didn’t learn in their homes, but which signals their membership among their compatriots.

    I have a friend who’s a retired police lieutenant, and several others who are sheriff’s deputies. I haven’t noticed this at all.

  • Igor

    Well, maybe I’m wrong.

  • Clavos

    I get pulled over a lot, too, Doc, but in my case it’s because I’m breaking the law.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    LOL. Or is it because of your habit of rolling down the window and sticking your middle finger out every time you pass a cop?

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    @ #136: Maybe so, Igor.

    Although I have noticed that cops are pretty much the only people who affect mustaches these days.

  • Zingzing

    STM, all I ask is that you criticize America for what it is, not some looney tunes version of it where we don’t know where canada is, we’re all racists (i know you qualified that, but it took you long enough,) and we’re stupid because we don’t subscribe to your version of history. You seem to have a hard on for demonizing America in outlandish and broad brush terms. Can you blame me if I don’t like it? I’m pretty well-traveled and I’ve heard it all when it comes to ridiculous beliefs about Americans. It’s tiresome. Sometimes a foreign perspective on America can be revelatory, but sometimes, it just says more about the person you’re talking with. The truth is always more complex than the stereotype, but a lot of people seem to latch onto stereotypes, and a lot of people seem to be especially keen on stereotypes when it comes to America, including you. You seem a pretty smart guy, so it just bugs me all the more when someone I generally respect says some shit that’s just ignorant. But hey, maybe I’ve just been blessed by life and gawd to live amongst the incredibly rare phenomenon that is generally intelligent, non-racist Americans who know where Canada is. But I kinda doubt I’m that lucky. Something makes me think (call it experience,) that we’re not the stupid, fat, racist, violent, arrogant pigs of stereotype.

  • Zingzing

    Doc, you need to come to Brooklyn, although I think the mustache fad may have passed at this point. A year ago, they were all the rage.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    A Mustache Grows in Brooklyn.

  • Zingzing

    Also, STM, just so you get a better look at my ” tight circle,” I live in one of the most diverse cities in the world, in a neighborhood that’s mixed black/Latino/white, work at a place that caters to Latinos and blacks, my roommate is Jewish, my local bar is Korean, my girlfriend is Chinese, my best friend’s ginger (I do make fun of him all the time for it, and he claims he’s blonde), the neighbor I hang out with most is gay and black, and I rarely see any bigotry. 99.99% of the interactions I take part in or witness have no element of racism. But that doesn’t make the papers. And we all know where Canada is.

  • Zingzing

    Upon further review, letting STM “get a better look at my tight circle” was probably a horrible way to put it.

  • STM

    Zing, I know you live in NYC. You can live in a big multicultural city and still have a tight circle of friends and acquaintances. I know this because I’ve lived in two of the biggest.

    I’m convinced you live in cloud-cuckoo land when it comes to how you see your own country. Sometimes I think you forget that there are many millions of americans, who unlike you and your little circle of comfortably numb liberal mates (or the good folk on here who makde it their businsss to learn things beyond the US), who haven’t had the benefit of a decent education or the opportunity to travel and really CAN’T point to Canada on a map.

    That’s not a joke zing … it’s the dead-set truth, sadly. I believe it’s you who doesn’t have much of an idea of the real America outside the little version of America that you know. Living in NYC and knowing a lot isn’t even representative of the majority of New Yorkers. And being street smart isn’t the same as having a decent general knowledge of the rest of the world.

    That is my experience of the US and it’s the experience of the vast majority of travellers to the US that I have spoken to, including some who’ve lived in places like NYC for long periods. One of these days I’ll point you to a few videos to prove my point. I’d rather not, though.

    The opposite side of the coin is that most of us felt Americans were the most hospitable people we’d met. The verdict is nearly always: “The nicest people we’ve met but haven’t got much of an idea about not only what goes on outside the US, but within the US as well.”

    My own experience tells me that beyond those Americans who are well educated and well informed or have educated themselves and make it their business to stay informed, that is pretty well accurate.

    I realise you love your country, but you have a fatal flaw in not being able to recognise this one truth about the US.

    But the real flaw is in the limitations and shortcomings of the US public education system, not in Americans themselves.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    zing –

    I hate to say it, but I lean more towards Stan’s arguments here, including about our public education system (which both liberals and conservatives have greatly damaged). There’s much that is still great about America…but we are IMO becoming real victims of our own success.

    Stan – that’s a great story about your girlfriend – priceless indeed!

  • Glenn Contrarian

    And to bolster STM’s viewpoints on race in America is this article by a National Review writer.

  • Zingzing

    Stan, I simply don’t know why you think you have a better grasp on Americans and America than I do, but have it your way. You could show me videos if you want, but I bet they’ll just be more stereotypes. I can also assure you that my experience of America is far broader than yours.

    I’m convinced you’ve bought into some things that aren’t quite true. We have our faults, but americans are also very creative, innovative people. Our culture has brought about far more than our fair share of amazing things. We’ve also unleashed some terrible shit, but no one bats 1.000.

    Tell me, have you ever met an American who couldn’t point to Canada on a map? Even if you tell me you have, I’d bet that person was looking at you like you’re a nut. They probably found the question a bit condescending. I really don’t know how most Americans couldn’t find Canada on a map, yet I’ve never met one. Maybe I have, but I forgot to ask them, I guess. It’s a stupid thing to believe, Stan, and I’m surprised you do.

    Glenn, i went to public school, and so did most of my friends. You probably did as well. Are you so sure you’re one of the few that made it out with an education?

  • STM

    Zing, you arew right about Americans being creative and innovative. Of course that is true … you only have to look at the place to realise that. There are hugely intelligent people running industry and business and designing things in the US and they make it great. But the vast majority of Americans don’t sit in that position (not that their toil doesn’t also make America great). When I say most, I mean a majority. That’s anything over 50 per cent. I really don’t believe you know that much about what I’d call middle America and working-class America. It just doesn’t seem like you do.

    I’m also going to point out once and for all that just because I think most Americans don’t have a great general knowledge or much idea of what really goes on in this world outside the US, that doesn’t mean I don’t like America or Americans. You seem in constant confusion about that. I DO like Americans. In fact outside my own countrymen they’d be number two on the list.

    I simply have a view about one aspect of American culture – its one-eyed isolationism – and it’s a view backed up by many others who’ve experienced it as well.

    I can never work out why it is that a lot of Americans can’t see the failings of their own countrymen. I’d be the first to admit that many Aussies can be complete redneck oafs, or have some of that in their make-up … possibly even the majority – coz it’s true.

    But sorry to tell you, it’s also true many Americans can come across as deluded and big-headed (and unable to point to Canada on a map … provided it doesn’t actually have names on it, of course. Even then … )

    And how arrogant do you think it is that you think because I don’t live in the US I can’t possibly know what goes on there. I’ve been immersed in American pop culture since I was a kid, and I’ve been to the US many times, once for an extended period. I make a living out of trying to work out what really goes on, so do you think I wouldn’t have been trying to do that in the US, asking questions of people, etc? An intelligent, well-educated woman in the US once told me I spoke good English. I replied: Thanks, so do you. She asked where I learned it. I told her my parents taught me, then I went to school. She asked, so your parents spoke it too? Yes I said, what about yours … that kind of exchange wasn’t exactly isolated. I was also astounded by the number of Americans I met who thought the only language spoken in Canada was French. Seriously.

    Mate, there’s not a great deal of knowledge of the world in the US. It’s well documented around the world that Americans generally lack that knowledge and I just don’t see how you can argue with that.

    But, hey, you know what they say zing … in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

    Wear that crown with pride!

  • STM

    And now’s the time to fess up. When I say most Americans can’t find Canada on a map, I don’t mean it literally. What I mean and what I’ve always meant is that they don’t know much about anything outside the US. Although there is also some truth to it.

    Of course I wouldn’t walk up to someone in the street and ask them to point to Canada. But yes, one night in the states we did play a drinking game with a map of the world, and only one or two – I’ll be generous and say two – of the Americans pointed correctly to Canada. Out of eight or nine reasonably educated people, that is. In fact quite a few didn’t point correctly to the United States.

    Everyone else struggled with places like Azerbaijan and Bhutan.

    Perhaps it was just a ploy. If you f.cked up, you had to have big drink. They got drunk pretty quick.

  • http://cinemasentries.com El Bicho

    it’s possible both your versions of America are correct

  • STM

    It’s just the one aspect of American culture for which I find in the negative, EB.

    Perhaps the truth is, Americans might feel they don’t need to know what goes on outside the US. That’s both plausible and in the past, understandable. Less so now.

    But I still think when you get away from the elites in the big cities and into the rest of America, it is certainly the case.

  • Jordan Richardson

    My wife, an American, can and often does corroborate Stan’s vision of America as he’s talked about extensively on these threads. Learning about the “rest of the world” just isn’t part of the cards.

    Americans are generally taught that they are citizens of the “best country in the world,” for one thing, whereas that sort of patriotism was never a part of my education and/or social upbringing – except when it comes to hockey.

    Americans also tend to view what’s going on in their neck of the woods as THE most important thing ever. Hell, the American president is called the “leader of the free world.” Do you know how arrogant that is? Or to call yourselves the “shining city on a hill” or the “last best hope of earth?”

    With that sort of foundation, why would you expect to know where – or what – Canada is?

  • Jordan Richardson

    Tell me, have you ever met an American who couldn’t point to Canada on a map?

    I can tell you that I’ve met about six Americans that couldn’t, but they also didn’t really know where Alaska was. I have also meant dozens – literally dozens – of Americans who’ve asked me shit like “Do you have TV way up there in Canada?” and “How many people live in your igloo?”

    Oh, and not an interaction with an American goes by without some sort of “Eh?” reference.

    I live eight minutes away from the Canada-US border, by the way. I’m down there a lot.

  • Zingzing

    They were most likely fucking with you, jordan and stan, if what you say is true. And do you think that american’s don’t laugh at the more arrogant sayings (as Jordan pointed to) of Americans? Come on. Cut us some slack. We’re way ahead of you on that front. You think there’s no self awareness here? That “best country in the world” line of jordan’s is killing me.

    I’m going to take everything I know about Canada from strange brew and everything I know about Australia from crocodile dundee and then filter it through south park, eh, mates?

    (and that’s the first time I’ll make an “eh” reference to you, Jordan. So go back to ice fishing, you person without a tv, even though many of america’s most favorite television comedians are fucking canadian…. And how can you have a tv in an igloo? In balmy suburban Vancouver? Where they have an NHL team? And decriminalized weed, which Americans flock to your city for? Seriously, you’ve either met some true idiots, or you didn’t pick up on the fact that someone was messing with you.)

  • Jordan Richardson

    zingzing, I know you’re desperate to defend your country’s citizens but you really are starting to sound like your head’s in the sand on this one. I get that, but it is in fact possible that I know what I’m talking about on this one. As I said, I’m speaking from a position of experience. I’m well aware that some Americans laugh at the arrogance, but MANY do not – many seriously consider that brand of jingoism to be of paramount importance.

    Half my family is American. It is possible that I know what I’m talking about. These weren’t one-off meetings.

    You can choose to invalidate my experiences all you like, but what you’re really doing is solidifying the impression that many Americans are rather arrogant. Do you really think you’re that above criticism? There are many Canadians that don’t know the first thing about America, let alone the different parts of their own country or how their political system works. The difference between us is that I’m not in fucking denial up to my eyeballs.

    And what “front” are you “way ahead of us” on?

  • Jordan Richardson

    You think there’s no self awareness here?

    I wouldn’t deny it and never said your fellow Americans were lacking in self-awareness, humour, wit, or whatever, zing, but I don’t think there’s as much of it as you think there is.

    Look, we Canadians can be and often are pretty fucking stupid. We’re generally apathetic politically, for one thing, and we don’t care much about “issues.” We don’t have rigorous debates about many things here, except for hockey-related shit, and many of us are rather content to watch our own culture disappear if it means we get better gas prices and/or cell phone plans. And in Vancouver, we really really really love the shit out of our yoga pants. And we’re snooty as hell.

    But if we’re ignorant, we admit it. Most of the time.

  • Jordan Richardson

    One more thing: I’m willing to bet that the bulk of your experiences with people comes from being around those generally “in the know” about certain things. They probably have smartphones, the Internet, HDTVs, cool hipster glasses, whatever.

    But not everyone lives inside a circle of information and not everyone cares to, no matter what country you’re in. In my mother-in-law’s neighbourhood in Bremerton, some of her neighbours are still rocking VCRs. They don’t have the Internet and they don’t have the first clue where Vancouver is – or what it is – or that any of their “comedians” are from Canada. They just don’t know. And they don’t know because it’s never come up, they never had to know. It wasn’t and isn’t relevant to their daily lives and I don’t blame them for it, I don’t see them as inferior. Their circle of knowledge is just different, that’s all.

    Many many many Americans who care to find out about other parts of the world can and do, there’s nothing stopping them. But many many many Americans – and many many many Canadians – just don’t give a shit what goes on outside their borders.

  • zingzing

    you miss the point, jordan. stm once said, and solidly stuck to the point until recently, that 70% (or some such figure) of americans couldn’t identify canada on a map. then he recently said, but later backed off slightly, that most americans are racist. that’s ridiculous. i’m sure i could go on about silly tourists from both your countries, but i wouldn’t dare to judge your countries based on the stupid mistakes that tourists make. i’m sure i could go toe to toe with you guys on that front. just give me two days in times square. (and i’ve already got dirt on canadians, even had to hit one in the face for being a dumb prick once. but that was in canada. which is north of here, i think.)

    “I know you’re desperate to defend your country’s citizens…”

    you guys are going on like i’m defending america’s virginity in the face of a dick in its vagina. but i’m not. i’m just saying the stereotypes that you are both claiming as true are silly. that’s all. there are plenty of stupid americans. there are more stupid americans than there are canadians and australians in total. yet there are plenty of smart americans. i wouldn’t say i’m exceptionally smart by american standards. and yet by canadian and australian standards, i’m a fucking genius, it seems. at least i’m not rolling about in my own filth and proclaiming it the best thing ever, as americans are wont to do, it seems…

    “And what “front” are you “way ahead of us” on?”

    making fun of americans… you say we’re completely self-centered and don’t admit anyone else exists, but then you say we neglect to target ourselves? come on. if we don’t think anyone else exists, who are we going to make fun of? you can’t have it both ways, jordan. we’ve got our own number.

    “many seriously consider that brand of jingoism to be of paramount importance.”

    they’re called republicans, jordan. and they’re not as dumb as you think. many are playing a game that they’re hoping you aren’t aware of.

    “But if we’re ignorant, we admit it.”

    but you’re only claiming other people are ignorant, aren’t you? easy to do.

  • zingzing

    ugh, ok, yeah, look… there are many backwoods fucking peasants still in the world. and they’re in your country, and in mine, and in any other fucking country. i’m not trying to be a jingoistic prick here, i’m just trying to say that there’s some stupid shit out there about america. and you two are falling for it.

    and please don’t judge america on bremerton or anywhere in rural washington state. it’s “america,” but it’s not america in total. no place in america is really all that representative of the whole. (i did live in washington state for many years, and i know bremerton well.)

  • Glenn Contrarian

    zing –

    I remember one woman who – when she and her husband heard that my wife and I were moving to Hawaii – asked how long it took to drive there. We were living near Seattle at the time.

    Yes, I’m a product of the public school system – and most of what I learned came not from school, but from reading books. LOTS of books.

    My youngest son did fairly well in English back stateside…and he was failing English here in the Philippines. Why? Because here they were teaching the technical aspects of English, whereas back in the states, it was “if it’s good enough, you pass”.

    zing, I lay the fault for the failings of our school system at the feet of both liberals and conservatives. We liberals wanted to be too fair, and allowed the standards for passing to fall, and now it’s normal for kids to be passed no matter how bad their schoolwork was. The conservatives are at fault because they somehow got the idea that teachers are parasites on society, and that schools will be better if we slashed their budgets. As an example, something like 41% of ALL teachers in Texas now moonlight instead of grading tests and homework and developing lesson plans.

    AND there’s a third factor – the rise not only of single parenthood, but of both parents working outside the house with their kids becoming ‘latchkey kids’. Without a parent being at home to tell the kids to do their homework, what do the kids do? Not much.

    These factors are why our public school system sucks…and I don’t see a way out of it without a lot of political and social pain i.e. holding schools and students up to a much higher standard, giving schools much better funding, paying teachers much better…AND paying people enough at work to where one parent can stay home to supervise the child. But what can be done for single-parent households? I don’t know.

    So…no. I don’t see a viable fix. Our educational system is IMO done for, and is part of the decline of our nation. I’m sorry, but that’s how I see it.

  • STM

    I don’t sdee this as a political issue. BTW, Glenn’s right on Filipinos; they do speak good English, which is even more impressive in that it’s only a de facto national language. I believe some Filipinos grow up speaking English, but for most it’s a second language.

    And Jordan’s experience in the US certainly echoes that of mine (and yes, we’ve got plenty of oafs Down Under too … and I believe I might qualify on some counts).

    However, as boorish as some of my countrymen can be, I’ve never met so many uninformed people as I have in the US. It’s quite shocking to meet people who literally know nothing about the world apart from what goes on in their own neck of the woods. And that might not include, a) outside the county; b) the state capitol, or c) Washington.

    Of all the countries in the world, you’d think America would be the one that would give its kids a decent and ACCURATE backgrounding in geography and history (beyond the period between the Mayflower and the War and Terror).

    It’s so important in this current climate and no matter what zing says, it’s not being done.

  • STM

    Zing: “They were most likely fucking with you, jordan and stan”.

    No, zing, they nearly always weren’t, although some were and I really could work out the difference. The woman who didn’t know I was a native English speaker was real, and so were the young adults playing the drinking game. A woman almost hit me when I kept arguing with her that Canada was bilingual but most people were native English speakers and only a minority spoke French as a first language. Doc has told on here about how a bloke nearly belted him in a bar because he took him to task for believing that Charles Lindbergh was the first to fly across the Atlantic. He was the first solo flier, but not the first to cross. I experienced things like that too. Most of the time I just shut my gob and let it go because it’s not worth worrying about when you are otherwise hugely enjoying the company, but it all goes in the basket and when you look at it when it’s full, it’s overflowing with what looks very much like a smug kind of arrogance fed by ignorance. That’s the sad part about it.

    And come on man, do you think I can’t tell when someone’s taking the piss? I’m Australian for christ’s sake … it’s our national pastime. If no one takes the piss out of you in this country, it means no one likes you. And if you can’t deal with it, laugh at yourself or fire one back, you get brushed by all and sundry. We get to work it out pretty quick – it’s part of the education. Americans who come here learn quickly too that being called a seppo (septic tank) doesn’t translate to insult. It’s simply rhyming slang. Context in all these cases is everything.

  • Jordan Richardson

    you miss the point, jordan

    No, I didn’t, Internet.

    I’m not judging your Blessed country based on “tourists,” for one thing, or just on one or two states. I’ve been to a number of states. My dad is a cross-border trucker, too, and his experiences in various parts of the United States have been eerily similar. I’ve also regularly vacationed in various states and, again, many of my relatives are American. I also married one.

    many are playing a game that they’re hoping you aren’t aware of.

    And many others are caught up in said “game” and take it as gospel truth, zing. You’re not really this naive, are you?

    but you’re only claiming other people are ignorant, aren’t you?

    Uh, no. I said:

    “Look, we Canadians can be and often are pretty fucking stupid.”

    “There are many Canadians that don’t know the first thing about America, let alone the different parts of their own country or how their political system works.”

    And so on.

    So here’s my question: what “stupid shit” about America am I falling for?

  • Dan

    “Why is that cause for embarrassment?”—Dreadful (comment #114)

    Your appeal to “Skeptics Society” authority backfired. As did your Iraqi “hate” murder, But not until after you had erroneously assigned an “interracial” catagory to a crime without a suspect.

    I dunno Dreadful, maybe a capacity for embarrassment is a heritable trait.

    “I would have thought that your constant obfuscation…”

    Hmm, obfuscation achieved through accusation of obfuscation.

    “…goalpost-shifting and ignoring of inconvenient evidence was more irrational.”—Dreadful

    Because I calculated your goalpost shifting in advance. I carefully crafted my thesis to the words: “race realism is firmly supported by mainstream science” (with minor variations). I’ve needed to restate that phrase more than once to drag you back to the argument you lost.

    Getting bogged down arguing against Henry Schlengers outlier position that ‘Correlation doesn’t necessarily show cause, and even if it did, intelligence is just a myth anyway’ sounds like swell fun, but it is inconsequential to my thesis which you say has not been established. (but has) This is your goalpost shifting. Schlenger isn’t mainstream. He is the last dying gasp of an institutionalized racist (against whites) fable.

    “As anyone who’s taken one knows, you have to have a certain amount of education even to understand what is being asked of you”—Dreadful

    Like many people, you confuse intelligence with knowledge. Intelligence is measured by how people figure new things out, not by knowledge they’ve practiced and learned. They are only correlated because intelligent people find it easier to learn, so they aquire more knowedge. IQ tests for three year olds involve stuff like matching pictures of baby animals with there mothers etc.

    “And by the way, what does any of this have to do with your constant references to black-on-white crime?”—Dreadful

    Why do you tie them together? The horrific black on white atrocities I’ve highlighted are simply business as usual normal and regular although, suppressed in national media of course. While the obsession over a “white hispanic” shooting a black rages.

    “Are those hate crimes, even though according to you there’s no such thing?”

    Well, the law is hateful. Directed at anyone who is not covered by them. Certainly not equal treatment under the law.

    Actually, non-whites are also more likely to commit hate crimes, so like lots of political interventions to help them (and to hurt whites), hate crime laws hurt minority offenders disproportionatly.

    “And is a propensity to commit crime heritable as well?”—Dreadful

    It appears so. Criminality, poverty, scholastic achievment, are all social outcomes that are correlated with intelligence.

    Correlation for IQ heritability is normally given as .4 to .8. The problem for environmentalists (before the genome project dashed their hopes) was that .8 is the correllation for adults. Environmental interventions achieved success during development but then regressed upon stabilization.

  • http://cinemasentries.com/ El Bicho

    Geez, zing. Give it a rest. You are doing for Americans what Dan does for white folks.

    Stan and Jordan have had their experiences, so not really sure what basis you have to claim to know what was really occurring in those instances, though you don’t believe they happened anyway.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    And zing –

    Please don’t take my comments about America as some kind of manifesto against America. I still love America, and always will. But Stan put his finger on the button concerning what’s wrong – our schools – and I believe I’ve enumerated what would have to be fixed before we bring our schools back to where they should be…and I don’t think we are able as a nation to do that – there’s too much politics involved.

    Every nation declines sooner or later, and every nation that stands at the pinnacle of power will descend sooner or later. Compared to great empires in human history, America didn’t last long at all…but then events occur much more quickly now than before. We are in decline. I just hope that we can follow England’s example and pass the baton of world leadership gracefully. Reread Kipling’s “White Man’s Burden”. Ignore the implicit racism, for that was simply the context of the times, and see instead the warning therein. He was England’s sunset poet, and the time is coming all too soon that we will need our own.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    Your appeal to “Skeptics Society” authority backfired.

    Again, I wasn’t appealing to authority. I wasn’t saying that the Skeptics Society supported my position. I was saying that I endeavoured to follow that standard of critical thinking.

    As did your Iraqi “hate” murder

    Funny, I don’t think the investigation’s over yet. For someone who was so ready to chastise me for coming to hasty conclusions about the nature of the crime, you’re certainly in a hurry to assign it as an intraracial murder.

    Hmm, obfuscation achieved through accusation of obfuscation.

    What?

    Because I calculated your goalpost shifting in advance. I carefully crafted my thesis to the words: “race realism is firmly supported by mainstream science” (with minor variations). I’ve needed to restate that phrase more than once to drag you back to the argument you lost.

    The only thing “supported by mainstream science” is that African-Americans score lower on IQ tests in the United States than whites and Asians.

    Like many people, you confuse intelligence with knowledge. Intelligence is measured by how people figure new things out, not by knowledge they’ve practiced and learned. They are only correlated because intelligent people find it easier to learn, so they aquire more knowedge. IQ tests for three year olds involve stuff like matching pictures of baby animals with there mothers etc.

    You’re an intelligent man. Let’s say you’re not an aeronautical engineer by profession and have never taken any aeronautics or engineering classes. Think you could pass an aeronautical engineering exam?

    The horrific black on white atrocities I’ve highlighted are simply business as usual normal and regular

    You must have a very dim view of humanity in general if you think that level of violence is at all indicative of “business as usual”. Violent crimes are, in fact, very rare. Although it’s not surprising that black-on-white violence would appear to be endemic to you if those are the only crimes you pay any attention to.

    Actually, non-whites are also more likely to commit hate crimes

    Another claim which directly contradicts the FBI stats I linked to in comment 101, and confirms your tendency to ignore inconvenient evidence and make up your own narratives instead.

    You’re quick to accuse the law of being biased, but seem quite happy to classify every black-on-white crime as a hate crime – and only black-on-white crimes.

  • Zingzing

    “You are doing for Americans what Dan does for white folks. ”

    No.

    Meh. People are aware of their own shit. They don’t care about yours or if you consider your shit more important than their shit. They make a whole world out of what they care about same as you. They may be happier than you was well. I wouldn’t bet against it…

  • Zingzing

    ” bit you’re only claiming other people are ignorant, aren’t you?”

    Jordan, that was not about your views on Canadians, but your views on everyone but yourself. Judging someone with different values is easy, but you can be mistaken.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Huh?

  • Zingzing

    Ahem. It’s easy to call other people stupid. “other” meaning other than yourself. (I’m not trying to be a dick.)

    After I wrote the quoted text, you posted some stuff you had previously written about dumb people in Canada… But that wasn’t my point.

  • Zingzing

    ANYONE but yourself, Jordan. You’re the oh so intelligent and connected person, and I am as well, so don’t think I’m bashing on you.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Some people are stupid, zing, and some people are ignorant. So what if it’s “easy” to realize that?

    I’m not really sure where you’re going with this. I was hoping you’d answer my question, but it seems you’re changing the subject.

  • Jordan Richardson

    You do realize I said “we Canadians can be and often are pretty fucking stupid”, right? Does that sound like I’m excluding myself/holding myself to a higher standard?

  • Zingzing

    What was the question then?

  • Jordan Richardson

    From #164:

    So here’s my question: what “stupid shit” about America am I falling for?

  • Zingzing

    Maybe nothing. But maybe Americans are no different from everyone else, and maybe you’ve not met the right Americans.

    You do see my point about different values, yeah?

  • Jordan Richardson

    No, I don’t see your point. Frankly I think you’re all over the map on this one.

    I honestly don’t think my point is all that earth-shattering, zing, and I think you’re making too much of it OR missing it altogether. You mistakenly think I’m excluding myself from the Great Unwashed, but I’ve frequently revealed my limitations on these threads over the years and frequently admitted my ignorance on a HUGE swath of subjects. I don’t have anything to hide; I can and do admit stupidity and ignorance on a number of topics.

    My problem came when you started to invalidate my experiences, as though the people I’ve known for years have been pulling some sort of elaborate rib that I can’t possibly see through. You’d have to think I was pretty stupid (irony?) to not be able to figure that out, huh?

    Generally speaking, America is lower than the mark. The country has been steadily slipping in a number of fields when compared to the rest of the developed world (you guys rank Below Average in math and science, for example, you have a lower graduation rate than much of the developed world, you’re lower on the “Happiness Index” than much of the developed world, you’re lower than most of the developed world on most health-related lists, you have an alarming rate of wage disparity, etc.), yet doctrines like American Exceptionalism and the American Dream persist to tell the rest of us how great you are in comparison to us. This gets somewhat annoying when you’re on the outside looking in and THAT, my friend, is a perspective you know nothing about. You don’t know what it’s like to sit above the United States, just minutes from the border, and hear constantly from family and friends about how great and special and unique America is, how it’s an “idea” not a country, etc. There is a certain degree of ego that generally comes with that territory. You don’t hear many Canadians talking like that.

    When 9/11 happened, it became everybody’s tragedy. Many of us in the developed world rushed to help and many were spit on for refusing to join the War in Iraq, as though it was morally wrong to not follow your country everywhere. Remember “Freedom Fries” and the countless jokes about France? Or how Canadians died in Afghanistan only to be spit on by FOX News commentators (representing roughly half your country) for being “pussies?” Or how commentators dragged our health care system through the mud to make a political point?

    The United States has presented itself as the “best country in the world” for a long time now. Again: American Exceptionalism and other doctrines have been promoted far and wide. Just look at NAFTA, for instance. It’s part of the message many of us receive, even though many (or maybe even most) Americans don’t subscribe to the newsletter anymore.

    Anyway, that’s all I have to say on the matter. I don’t think I’m working from stereotypes and I don’t assume ALL Americans are alike. But I do think there’s a reputation there and I do think it exists for a reason. I think it’s something you ought to consider when you read what Stan has to say about America, as he’s likely looking at your country through a similar lens. And you, with all due respect, don’t have the first clue as to how your country looks from the other side of the fence.

  • STM

    Jordxan: “And you, with all due respect, don’t have the first clue as to how your country looks from the other side of the fence.”

    Yeah, that’s about it. And it can be galling.

  • zingzing

    “you, with all due respect, don’t have the first clue as to how your country looks from the other side of the fence.”

    ahrm. really? i’ll give you a minute to think about that one. (you just spent the last couple days telling me how my country looks from your perspective, and you’re about the millionth person to have done so.) we’re a cliche, but we’re not all a cliche, but it doesn’t matter because that’s the cliche and that’s how you perceive us. wonderful. thanks.

    but. somehow i said “we’re not as stupid as all that,” and you both took it as “this land is perfect and you are fools to think otherwise.” maybe you’re used to that from the mouths of americans, but it’s pretty clear that’s what you hear even when it’s not said.

    sigh. if all that’s going to go on here is you guys listing off america’s shortcomings, i think we can just drop it. i realize it’s making me look bad, but sometimes it just builds up inside me and the constant chorus of “stupid american” has got to be shouted at for a while. it just gets so fucking tiresome. must be easier on the other side of it.

  • Jordan Richardson

    zingzing, nobody has said you were all cliches. And nobody has said that all Americans are stupid. But there are facts that you seem to be ignoring, such as the pretty significant slippage in education, health and general well-being when compared to developing countries. Couple that with the sort of rabid patriotism that makes many Americans “exceptional” and you’ve got an interesting presentation, wouldn’t you say?

    When I tell you about my personal experiences, you run laps to try to invalidate them. “Oh, they must have been fucking with you,” you insist. “Nobody can be that stupid.”

    How do you think that comes off?

    And you’re behaving as if I’ve left myself apart from the criticism. As I’ve gone to great lengths to explain, “I can and do admit stupidity and ignorance on a number of topics.” It’s all relative on that personal level.

    What is galling, as Stan said, is the insistence of many Americans (Republicans, as you dismissively stated) to infer that the United States is more than just a set of borders; it’s a dream, an “idea,” and so forth. You acted like I was making it up (#155, #159) and ignored the rest.

    Sigh, indeed.

  • zingzing

    “But there are facts that you seem to be ignoring, such as the pretty significant slippage in education, health and general well-being when compared to developing countries.”

    for the love of god. how many times do i have to point out that i’m not ignoring that? that’s not at all germane to my point, which is about the more ridiculous things people are apt to believe about america. so please… it’s getting rather frustrating to have you putting words in my mouth. as i said way, way back to stan, i’m fine with people criticizing america for what it is, i welcome it, and YOU KNOW i do it quite often. i’m not fine with them criticizing america with some obviously stupid statistic they found on the internet.

    “How do you think that comes off?”

    probably about the same as you dismissing my experience. if americans who don’t know where canada is are so rampant and dominant, as stan says (to the tune of 70%)… i wonder why i don’t meet them. neither you or stan seem to think that my input is of any value. yet my sample base is so much larger. why is my experience worth nothing compared with yours?

    “And you’re behaving as if I’ve left myself apart from the criticism.”

    well, you only went to “great lengths” after i accused you of it, then i never said anything about it again. so can we drop that one? that said, i don’t believe you are stupid, and i doubt you do either. you may have a few blind spots you’ll acknowledge, but that’s not really the kind of stupidity we’re talking about here, is it?

    “You acted like I was making it up (#155, #159) and ignored the rest.”

    no i didn’t. i don’t know why you’d think that, but you’ve been misunderestistanding me a lot on this thread. i was just saying that a sizable portion of the american population realizes how strange those ideas are. it’s like you don’t see how many people within the united states ridicule those ideas. why does that portion of america not make it beyond the borders, or why does it not enter the “narrative,” i wonder…

    i’ll tell you why: people like to caricaturize the united states. simplicity at the expense of accuracy. and they’re cool with that. usually, a few neighboring countries have funny little tiffs between themselves wherein they caricaturize each other. but the us is open game, and some people actually take it as gospel. i’m not saying you do, but there are those that do, and you really just want to say they have wmds and then bomb the fuck out of them. whoops.

  • STM

    Fot God’s sake, zing, get over it.

    We’re not saying the US isn’t a good place, and as I’ve said before, my experience of Americans in regard to hospitality and kindness and enthusiasm for life is second to none.

    But it’s well known that a very large percentage of Americans, even those who might be intellectuals or academically clever, have been fed on the myth of american exceptionalism and believe it lock, stock and barrel.

    Then there are those who don’t have a clue as to how arrogant they seem to others, especially when that arrogance is fed by a lack of knowledge about the rest of the world.

    Beuing a one-eyed patriot is fine; I’m one.

    But beyond the rose-coloured glasses, I can also see there are the failings of my own country and its people in terms of its attitudes to everyone else (yes, almost to a man, we think we’re the best, the most democratic, the most tolerant, and have the best country in the world).

    This place is better than most first-world countries but like EVEYWHERE, it has its failings.

    I thought you were arrogant in my first contact with you on these threads when you dismissively said all Aussie music was sh.t.

    You are displaying the same kind of one-eyed arrogance on here. If YOU say there are tghings wrong with the US, that’s OK,

    But if any of us non-Americans do, that’s a different story, right, because we couldn’t possibly know.

    What a load of f..king codswallop that is and, dare I say it, it’s quite a typical American attitude. Why should the experiences of myself and Jordan be dismissed as patently wrong just because you don’t like that view or agree with it.

    You don’t need us to tell you, though; it’s well documented. Such venerable instutions as Time magazine have done their own surveys and come up with the same conclusion in regards to the lack of general knowledge of the average American.

    In your arguments with us, you prove at least some of our points.

    Just get over it mate.

  • Jordan Richardson

    which is about the more ridiculous things people are apt to believe about america.

    Like what?

    I’ve asked you this a number of times, but you dance around it even though it’s “germane to your point.”

    So I’ll ask again (and hopefully this time you don’t say “Maybe nothing.”)

    What “stupid shit” about America am I falling for?

    i’m not fine with them criticizing america with some obviously stupid statistic they found on the internet.

    What “obviously stupid statistic?”

    probably about the same as you dismissing my experience.

    Please point out where I’ve done this.

    why is my experience worth nothing compared with yours?

    Who said it was worth nothing? We’ve obviously had different experiences and met different people. As EB said, “it’s possible both your versions of America are correct.”

    you only went to “great lengths” after i accused you of it

    Bullshit. I quoted myself from a previous post after you accused me of it.

    that’s not really the kind of stupidity we’re talking about here, is it?

    No, it’s EXACTLY the kind of stupidity we’re talking about.

    i was just saying that a sizable portion of the american population realizes how strange those ideas are.

    And you think I disagree?

    it’s like you don’t see how many people within the united states ridicule those ideas.

    What on earth gives you that impression?

    i’m not saying you do

    No, that’s pretty much all you’ve been saying. When I made my point and told you about some of my experiences, you plainly stated that they involved people who were “just fucking with me.” You asserted that I was basing my opinion, whatever it is, on “tourists” and continue to suggest that Stan and I simply can’t know what we’re talking about. We couldn’t possibly because your experiences are so “broad” as to render ours null and void.

    And when I bring up facts, statistics or doctrines like American Exceptionalism, you don’t address those points and simply dismiss the facts as “my perspective.” You’ve minimized my experiences with Americans, despite the fact that I’m married to one and have family throughout the States and have more American friends than Canadian friends, and you think I’m clinging to stereotypes – all while refusing to tell me what stereotypes I’m clinging to.

    And to top it off, you think I’m belittling your perspective!

  • zingzing

    sigh. you really aren’t getting what i’m saying. i’m sick of shit like stan’s 70% thing. that’s all. i know he backed off of it. but that kind of thing is not unusual.

    please answer this: do you understand my gripe?

    i know america has its faults. plenty of them. we’ve got one of the larger and more diverse populations in the world. of course we’re going to have issues.

    we’re all talking over each other at this point. jordan, i went out of my way to say you probably weren’t clinging to stereotypes. but that passed right over. if you quoted yourself from an earlier post on this thread, i didn’t see it. sorry.

    “And you think I disagree?”

    given what you said, yes… i’m glad you recognize that that’s not the totality of it. i wish people wouldn’t present it as if it was. even if all they say is that’s the image we project, i’d have to say they need to look closer.

    “And to top it off, you think I’m belittling your perspective!”

    sorry, but i do. you’re refusing to understand my basic issue, and then you’re blowing what i say out of proportion as well.

  • zingzing

    “I thought you were arrogant in my first contact with you on these threads when you dismissively said all Aussie music was sh.t.”

    it’s called a joke, stan. i like plenty of australian music. what i said was “australians have no business making music.” what i used to say was “canadians have no business making music.” and then canadians went and made some great music. and so i just picked another country. it’s 95% just a joke. plus, i was really into new zealand music a couple years ago. so that may have been part of it. you can pull your panties out of your ass about all that now.

    “But it’s well known that a very large percentage of Americans, even those who might be intellectuals or academically clever, have been fed on the myth of american exceptionalism and believe it lock, stock and barrel.”

    i really don’t think most americans think about it as much as you seem to.

    “But if any of us non-Americans do, that’s a different story, right, because we couldn’t possibly know.”

    only when you say silly things. keep it real, stan.

    “In your arguments with us, you prove at least some of our points.”

    i wasn’t arguing about the same things you were arguing about. i only dispute the more outlandish elements of what you say. but that doesn’t seem to matter.

    i swear, if we were all sitting down at a table with some beers, you both probably would have gone “oh, yeah, fair enough” several thousand words ago. i’m not at all arguing what you seem to think i am.

  • STM

    Zing writes: “i really don’t think most americans think about it as much as you seem to:”.

    No, that’s right, they just believe the myth of american excepgionalism without question.

    If they actually took the time to think about it and do their homework, they might not velieve it.

    Except the deluded ones … and there’s a few of them, right zing??

  • Jordan Richardson

    do you understand my gripe?

    Yes, you’re arguing against something I didn’t say. And in the process, you’ve invalidated my own experiences, claimed people were “fucking with me,” ignored reams of data, etc.

    i went out of my way to say you probably weren’t clinging to stereotypes.

    You did a poor job of it if that’s what you think you did. Hell, in #183 you said that I didn’t “see how people within the united states ridicule these ideas.” And in #181, you asserted again how I perceive you (Americans) as a cliché.

    you’re refusing to understand my basic issue

    HOW?

  • Jordan Richardson

    i’m not at all arguing what you seem to think i am.

    zing, I think you really ought to look back at what you’ve been saying throughout this conversation and then look back at what I’ve said. You say that you’ve only disputed the more “outlandish” elements of what we’ve said, but you’ve essentially disputed our experiences with your country by intoning time and time again that your experiences are “more broad.”

    And honestly, if we’re not arguing about the same things, is it any bloody wonder I don’t understand your “gripe?”

  • STM

    Zing: “you can pull your panties out of your ass about all that now”.

    Another assumption about someone else’s point of view.

    They were never in my arse; that’s because I didn’t give a f.ck.

    You are as entitled to your point of view as I am.

    I just thought you were arrogant.

    Not much has changed since then.

  • STM

    However, that said, I don’t want to argue with you any more zing; perhaps we should all agree to disagree

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    As the only regular here who is a non-American currently living in America, should I put in my two cents’ worth? And should that be in US, Canadian or Aussie currency?

    Frankly I don’t think I can contribute anything that hasn’t already been said many times over, but I’m game.

  • zingzing

    jordan: “Yes, you’re arguing against something I didn’t say.”

    exactly. i’m arguing against what stan said.

    “HOW?”

    because this has gone far beyond what i originally intended and i find myself having to defend myself against shit i never said.

    “And honestly, if we’re not arguing about the same things, is it any bloody wonder I don’t understand your “gripe?””

    i guess not. i tried to point out what it was but it keeps flying right by you for some reason. i dunno.

  • zingzing

    “Except the deluded ones … and there’s a few of them, right zing??”

    there’s the deluded ones, the non-deluded ones and all the others who don’t care either way.

    “Another assumption about someone else’s point of view.”

    really? after you decided to base your entire image of me off an assumption? (i may have done more to prove your assumption since that point.)

    “However, that said, I don’t want to argue with you any more zing; perhaps we should all agree to disagree”

    agreed.

  • zingzing

    jordan: “You did a poor job of it if that’s what you think you did.”

    the site’s been a little wonky lately. i’ve had to rewrite many of these comments because they got lost, and these comments are long… it’s possible that a version of a comment where i did so didn’t make it through. yeah, i can’t find it. i meant to say it! does that count?

    anyway, it was something about how many people are apt to believe cliches, especially about america. then i was supposed to say i don’t think you’re one of those people, but you must admit there are some. maybe it’s because they see our pop culture and think that’s an accurate reflection, even though it’s often lowest common denominator stuff. i guess it is a reflection, but it’s the least flattering.

  • zingzing

    doc: “Frankly I don’t think I can contribute anything that hasn’t already been said many times over, but I’m game.”

    as long as you’re not here to join the big ferner gangbang. bunch of meanies.

  • zingzing

    i mean, it’s a free country. NOT THAT I THINK WE’RE SPECIAL IN THAT REGARD! just thought i needed to point that out before someone starts riding my ass about it.

  • STM

    Zing: “after you decided to base your entire image of me off an assumption”.

    Well, no. Being arrogant was only one part of the image I have of you. Did I forget combative, argumentative, one-eyed …

    Then there are a couple of things I don’t like :)

  • Jordan Richardson

    I don’t think Stan has said what you think he’s been saying, though.

    My comments started by saying that my wife, a card-carrying American, corroborates Stan’s vision of the country. I followed up with the “best in the free world” line (and “leader of the free world,” etc.), which I subsequently backed up using a number of examples. Then I said that I indeed have met Americans who didn’t know where Canada was, to which you replied that “they were most likely fucking with you, jordan…if what you say is true. You followed that up implying that I was gaining my knowledge about your country from stereotypes.

    That’s about where the trouble started, in my opinion. From there, I insisted that I was indeed speaking from a position of experience and stated that there were indeed many Canadians that didn’t know the first thing about America. In other words, it goes both ways. I also added that half my family is American and went on to explain that I believed their circle of knowledge to be different, not necessarily inferior. Then I said that many Americans and many Canadians simply don’t care about what happens beyond their respective borders.

    After that, you said that I missed the point. And you said “i’m just saying the stereotypes that you are both claiming as true are silly. that’s all.”

    The trouble there is that neither one of us were claiming stereotypes; we were sharing firsthand experiences that you subsequently invalidated because you just couldn’t believe people could be that stupid.

    Further to that, you said “you say we’re completely self-centered and don’t admit anyone else exists.” Again, that wasn’t what I said. Hell, it wasn’t even what Stan said.

    After that, I asked you to clarify what “stupid shit” about America I was falling for. You said “Maybe nothing,” adding that I may not have met the “right Americans.” I reiterated myself again in #179, adding even more of my perspective and experiences. You replied “ahrm. really?” and rambled on about clichés. Again. Arhm. Really. You added “that’s how you perceive us,” as though my opinion of America has come from clichés and stereotypes. Further to that, in #183 you went on about “simplicity for the sake of accuracy.” I asked you to clarify and asked you a number of questions. You dodged and said that you weren’t saying what I thought you were saying, adding that you “went out of your way” to insist that I wasn’t clinging to stereotypes. Given the above, I’m sure you can understand my confusion.

    Now maybe the site has been a little wonky lately, I don’t know. If you “meant to say it,” okay. But you’ve also got to understand that you’ve said the opposite many, many times throughout this conversation. I’m not the only one who seems to be missing your point, either, so there may be something to that. If it’s a big misunderstanding and we’re really talking at cross-purposes here, that’s cool.

  • STM

    Yeah, come on Doc, chime in.

    I know you have to live there, but still … like the good Aussie I am, I’d always back a Pom who’s in a tight corner.

  • STM

    Assuming, of course, you’d back up your mates in countries where police forces still have a crown on their cap badges.

  • STM

    And a damn good thing they do too!

  • STM

    That crown reminds people they have unequivocal rights under the law …

  • STM

    I’m not being naughty now am I??

  • zingzing

    jordan: “If it’s a big misunderstanding and we’re really talking at cross-purposes here, that’s cool.”

    i think it mostly is. i also think you’ve had different interactions with americans than i have. and that you MAY be being a little quick to judge. i don’t know. maybe i’m a little too lenient.

    and i have several canadian friends (from vancouver no less) and i make merciless fun of them for being canadians. and they make fun of me for being american. but it’s all in good fun. no one really believes that stuff. right? putting too much stock in such things is a negative in every way.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    This all started from Stan’s assertion that Dan’s breed of racism is a view widely held in the US, and from there the handbags, purses, clutches and other feminine haulage devices came out and started swinging.

    Racism is, of course, by no means unique to the United States (Australian racism has a pretty shameful history of its own), but the American version is unique because of the slavery followed by legally enshrined apartheid that it originated in. (South Africa also had institutional apartheid, but there the beneficiaries were the minority.)

    The upshot is that with the best will in the world, the variously-hued peoples of the Untied States have learned, over a period of centuries, how not to be able to live with each other.

    The thing to realize is that very few of them actually think this is great, as Dan does. They’re just not all that good at handling the reality that Americans with different-coloured skins exist.

    It’s also no accident that in both the US and Australia, the ethnic group that got the most screwed over is still the most economically disadvantaged, discriminated against and mistrusted by whites.

  • zingzing

    my mother and father are both baby boomers, and they remember a time when racism was not only acceptable, it was almost pushed on people. my grandparents, or at least one set, held some racist opinions of their own, although they’d mellowed considerably by the time i remember them.

    i don’t think america’s quite as bad as it once was. our legal system (black crack is worse than white coke, black crime is more punishable than white crime,) and some of our politics (hello, arizona,) would suggest the lesson hasn’t been learned, but i think a vast majority of americans would agree that a more inclusive society is for the better.

    some americans think an egalitarian society has actually been achieved, and we don’t need to be inspecting our legal system for bias, and affirmative action should be a thing of the past. that’s going too far and not recognizing the reality of the situation, and it’s telling that 99% of such people are white, but i think america is on a steady march towards that current-day fantasy.

    there are plenty of bumps in the road, but stan’s idea that america is “as riven as it ever was” is ignoring the multiple strides we (and the rest of the world) have made. just in the last 50 years, nevermind the last 150 years, massive changes have occurred. i’m surprised that he wouldn’t acknowledge that. it’s a misreading of history and a misreading of the present.

    there’s a reason why martin’s death was a massive media extravaganza. even if the facts come out different, it looks like some racist fuck targeted a black kid, and most americans won’t stand for that. used to be towns celebrated lynchings and feted the hangman. now the gunman is put into hiding and probably needs some police protection. neither is the greatest endorsement of racial harmony in america, but at least most americans are on the right side of the argument.

  • roger nowosielski

    As a completely neutral person in this here debate, ha ha, I think El Bicho complaint had the greatest bite, accusing zing of doing for the Americans what Dan has been trying to do on behalf of the white people.

    Anyways, out of the triple bypass surgery, guys, not to mention carotid endarterectomy, and let me tell you, it ain’t no fucking picnics. It’s a humbling experience in light which such lofty subjects as politics or this here rather silly dispute about American Exceptionalism receive their proper treatment which should only be: Who gives a fuck?

  • zingzing

    roger, you’re a dick, but glad the surgery went alright. i do admit that sticking up for americans in any way isn’t particularly kosher these days, but i wasn’t trying to create any supposed utopia where americans are better than anyone else. just saying they’re not automatically worse. they’re just people and they don’t deserve stereotyping. if you (or el b) believe that that’s the same thing as what dan’s doing… i dunno what to think, mr. apple pie.

  • roger nowosielski

    Well, my man, it’s gonna be a while before I get overexcited about small shit like that. It’s all about us humans, small scale, one on one, fuck all the glamorized rest.

    I’d better disengage for now instead of risking stealing an image of myself on the computer screen like some ghost in the mirror.

    Later.

  • Jordan Richardson

    zing, look.

    Of course, I’ve had different interactions. I’ve interacted with Americans my entire life and I think you may be undercutting the amount of time I’ve spent there and the broadness of my own experiences in the US. I have spent quite a bit of time in so-called “red states,” for one thing, and their opinions tend to be pretty far away from mine on most issues. But most of my friends have similar views and may be considered “leftists,” I guess, so that’s coloured the other end of the spectrum. It’s a country I’ve been visiting since birth, quite regularly, so that’s a pretty decent haul of folks from various ends of the spectrum over my nearly 33 years. Down to an individual, ignorance aside, I’ve found most Americans to be very pleasant, compelling, interesting, kind people. And they’re much better drivers in comparison to people where I’m from.

    I haven’t really been trying to make fun of Americans and I certainly haven’t intended to suggest that Canadians are superior. Many people do have a broad, clichéd understanding of the United States, this is true, and stereotypes die hard no matter where you’re from. But I don’t think Stan and I have been working from mere stereotypes, and something tells me that’s where the hang-ups keep coming from. There’s a difference between the opinion that Americans generally don’t know much about the outside world and facts about American education in comparison to other developed nations and so on.

    As you said before, “Something makes me think (call it experience,) that we’re not the stupid, fat, racist, violent, arrogant pigs of stereotype.” Other experiences, however, do suggest that there are those who live up to the stereotypes and then some. As we’ve both said, it depends on who you meet and when you meet them.

    I do think that you have a slightly romantic vision of the United States. I think there are more racists and more clods than you think lurking within your borders, just like there are more racists and clods than I think lurking within mine. We tend to do that as human beings and that’s okay. The trick is in realizing our rose-coloured glasses and getting on with it, I think.

    Anyway, that’s enough of that. Back to regularly-scheduled whatever-it-is-you-do-here.

  • Jordan Richardson

    zing, for the record I never thought you were saying that Americans are above reproach. And I maintain that I don’t think anyone on these threads was stereotyping.

    Roger, glad everything went well. I think you’ll be back to getting overexcited about small shit in no time, though.

  • STM

    Doc: “(In) Australia, the ethnic group that got the most screwed over is still the most economically disadvantaged, discriminated against and mistrusted by whites”.

    Yes, that is still sadly the case … except, quite bizarrely, in Queensland – which after federation was one of the most racist of states – because, it seems, many “white” have some indigenous background.

    I don’t know why it’s like that; It’s kind of unspoken … people don’t talk about it and make a big deal of it, they just get on with it. I suspect sport has a lot to do with it – especially rugby league, in which many of the tough and gifted players have indigenous background and have been genuine role models.

    Of course, there are racists there too. Down south it’s a bit different. I think the approach is kind of wrong.

    It always amuses me that left-leaning and liberal-minded intellectuals and agitators in Sydney and Melbourne have made indigenous rights a cause celebre. I wonder how many of them have actually met an aborigine (Doc, you know my situation, so I feel I can say this).

    I’ve seen them do things like lurch away pretty quickly and look down their noses when a homeless aboriginal man has come up to ask for money. But the next day they’ll be fussing over the next great indigenous playwright. There’s a reall disconnect there between reality and what they’d like to think is happening.

    Things get done very quietly, like aboriginal kids – even those who are no good at sport – being given full scholarships to elite boarding schools.

    One is a fried of our family; he was given a scholarship for his last two years of high school at a very well known boarding school and graduated with honours. He went on to study law at Sydney University and is now working for a multinational company. That kind of stuff happens all the time … although possibly not enough given the kind of money floating about those institutions.

    And, our government did issue an official apology on behalf of the nation, in parliament, a couple of years ago for the horrid treatment by non-indigenous Australians of indigenous Australians over the past 200 years or so.

    It was part of the platform on which the new government was elected, and they won with a huge majority, so no one could rightly say that it wasn’t representative of the average Aussie’s thinking on this issue.

    The apology changed a lot of things, especially for indigenous Aussies. Funny how that one little word – “sorry” – can have such a profound effect.

    But I hope we don’t forget how we got to that point, nor why the spirit of it should continue and grow in strength.

  • STM

    BTW the way, Doc … didn’t much sound like you were backing me up

  • STM

    Sterling work by Jordan, but … Good on you champ. I knew you’d have had the same experiences as me. The thing I find galling about it all is that the US, Canada, Australia, NZ, the UK, are all pretty similar places in terms of standard of living, higher education, rights, legal system, provision of decent health care, rule of law, system of governance (my experience on that: Americans sometimes find it hard to get their heads around the notion that weren’t the first or the only to come up with the ideas contained in the Bill of Rights and apply them to ordinary people), libberal democracy, etc.

    So we know all that stuff, almost to a man and woman, but how come many Americans don’t … and still ask stupid questions and say dumb shit, like “Is your country free”, or “Ain’t you still under the Queen”.

    One thing zing will never appreciate: how much that kind of attitude can drive you nuts, and how hard it is to keep biting your tongue because you don’t want to offend people who are otherwise generally extremely kind and hospitable by engaging in the same kind of circular argument into which we currently appear locked.

    I find it really difficult sometimes, mainly because I like Americans. But that does seem to be their one fatal flaw – lack of knowledge and a wire loose between brain and mouth that leads to statements based on nothing more than something they think they know but really don’t.

    Of course, I’m generalising. I still say it’s only 70 per cent of Americans who can’t find Canada on a map. The other 30 per cent are pretty sweet once they find the US on the map and then have a stab, because they know it’s north somewhere, and once they work out north there’s no problem :)

    ROGER: I haven’t been on the threads that much; didn’t know you were crook. Hope all’s well, mate, and you’re feeling OK. Sounds like hard going. Cheers

  • roger nowosielski

    Jordan, Stan

    It’s bound to knock religion or just plain healthy respect for life into any man, just to realize how f..g fragile we all are, how it all hangs in the balance, that we’d better be picking our battles wisely.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Roger –

    Glad to see you made it through alright! I look forward to seeing you back on the boards – it would be nice to have someone intelligent to argue with, since right now BC is essentially all-Warren, all the time.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    zing –

    Have you gone off the deep end? Don’t you know that instead of defending America, you’re supposed to be the greatest threat against democracy (welcome back, Roger!), that you’re supposed to be an America-hatin’ lib’rul? What happened? Is Warren over there forcing you at gunpoint to defend America?

    All kidding aside, you love America, and so do I. All Jordan and Stan are trying to do is give us an idea of what we look like from the outside looking in. America needs this kind of constructive criticism. Heck, I’d vote for Jordan for president, if I could!

    And for Jordan – every think about changing your birth certificate? I mean, if you’re white (and since your name isn’t strange), Fox News won’t even check up on you!

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    Stan, you know how much I love Australia and that I will back you up against anyone who slags the place off or claims that the US is better. It isn’t. It’s a fine place to live, but the land Down Under is just magical. I mean, think about it. You spend your entire lives walking around upside down and still don’t fall off.

    I do know your family history, mate, and respect your views on this. Australia has done a lot more – and more sensibly – to address the shadier aspects of its past, particularly in the last few years. I can’t see any American government being in a hurry to go the Formal Apology route, either to the descendants of their former slaves or the people who used to own the place. The culture is just too stubbornly prideful. (Although it appears quite content to let native Americans get their revenge by opening casinos and taking all the white man’s money instead!)

    But it’s the invisibleness that’s the extraordinary thing about the relationship between whites and the indigenous population in Australia. I’ve travelled quite widely there, as you know, and the only place I saw Aborigines in public in large numbers was – yep, Queensland (which I believe is where your son is from, am I right?).

    Even at Uluru, one of their holiest sites, you didn’t see much of them. I was quite taken aback when we visited the cultural center, and realized that there wasn’t a single Anangu person working there.

    Mind you, I think it’s because they prefer it that way. I suspect that there are quite a few indigenous people living way out in whoop-whoop who’ve never seen a white feller.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    And for Jordan – every think about changing your birth certificate? I mean, if you’re white (and since your name isn’t strange), Fox News won’t even check up on you!

    No good, Glenn. As soon as they start mistaking him for Ben Harper’s drummer, he’s screwed.

  • Dan

    “The only thing “supported by mainstream science” is that African-Americans score lower on IQ tests in the United States than whites and Asians.”—Dreadful (comment 168)

    Sure Dreadful, and all those scientists who say otherwise, and continue to publish the research that says otherwise, are lying racists. They are mostly white so…

    “You’re an intelligent man. Let’s say you’re not an aeronautical engineer by profession and have never taken any aeronautics or engineering classes. Think you could pass an aeronautical engineering exam?”—Dreadful

    Of Course not. An aeronautical engineering exam tests knowledge, not intelligence. I’ve tried to explain the difference. You possibly were taken in by one of those online tests. Real and ideal IQ tests are tests you can’t prepare for.

    “Violent crimes are, in fact, very rare. Although it’s not surprising that black-on-white violence would appear to be endemic to you if those are the only crimes you pay any attention to.”—Dreadful

    Didn’t say they weren’t rare, just that when interracial violence happens between blacks and whites, it is around 85 to 90% black perps and white victims.

    “Another claim which directly contradicts the FBI stats I linked to in comment 101, and confirms your tendency to ignore inconvenient evidence and make up your own narratives instead.”—Dreadful

    You linked to the victim page. Go to the offender page and you will see blacks listed at 18.5% some 5% more than their representation in the general population. Notice that “whites” are listed at 62.4% which is less than their representation in the general population. Notice also, that Hispanics aren’t listed. That’s because they are lumped in with the “white” catagory. So because of racist (against whites) catagorization the FBI will absurdly list a hate crime by a hispanic on a white as “white on white”. Hispanics are, of course, a “victim” catagory, but not an “offender” catagory.

    “You’re quick to accuse the law of being biased, but seem quite happy to classify every black-on-white crime as a hate crime – and only black-on-white crimes.”—Dreadful

    What are you talking about? I mock the entire racist (against whites) notion of classifying crimes as “hate crimes”.

    It looks like the grand jury has been waived in the Trayvon Martin case. That probably means there isn’t enough evidence for a Capital offense charge. They are also beefing up security, which probably means they expect the blood thirsty black protesters to riot.

    The producer at NBC was fired for doctoring the tape to make it appear that Zimmerman wasn’t being asked about Trayvons race. So that’s good. If Zimmerman survives the lynching he’ll be able to legally argue that objectivity was compromised.

  • Jordan Richardson

    As soon as they start mistaking him for Ben Harper’s drummer, he’s screwed.

    Or a model.

    My hips don’t lie.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    all those scientists who say otherwise, and continue to publish the research that says otherwise

    That’s funny, I thought you said the science was settled and there was no need for further research. Care to cite some of this research that has been published since the literature review you keep referring to?

    An aeronautical engineering exam tests knowledge, not intelligence.

    The point is that you have to have acquired a certain amount of knowledge in order to be equipped to pass it. Here are some examples of questions that you might encounter on an IQ test. Some are intuitive, but most require some arithmetic, language, general knowledge or logical ability: skills which would be compromised if you had not received a sufficiently good standard of education.

    when interracial violence happens between blacks and whites, it is around 85 to 90% black perps and white victims.

    Which can be accounted for by situational factors much more readily than by a supposed genetic predisposition to violence.

    So because of racist (against whites) catagorization the FBI will absurdly list a hate crime by a hispanic on a white as “white on white”.

    It’s clear, then, that you consider “Hispanic” to be a separate race than “white”. Why?

    I mock the entire racist (against whites) notion of classifying crimes as “hate crimes”.

    I’m glad you cleared that up. Must be why the FBI statistic for black-on-white hate crime is zero.

    It looks like the grand jury has been waived in the Trayvon Martin case. That probably means there isn’t enough evidence for a Capital offense charge.

    I never thought there was. The case isn’t nearly clear-cut enough. However, according to the special prosecutor, “her decision to rule out a grand jury had no bearing on whether any charges would be brought.”

  • zingzing

    jordan–hrm. if you’ve spent most of your time in red states, i’ve spent the last 15 years of my life in blue states (and the first 18 in a red state that just turned real purple). that just may explain the difference, but i dunno.

    glenn: “America needs this kind of constructive criticism.”

    there’s a difference between constructive criticism and stan’s 70% malarkey.

    stm: “One thing zing will never appreciate: how much that kind of attitude can drive you nuts…”

    you’re kidding. i will appreciate it, as it’s the kind of thing that just drove me up a wall. that sword cuts both ways, stan. not all foreigners know all there is to know on the us… and some of the things they “know” just reveal their own biases.

  • STM

    Wel;l, you just keep believing what you want to believe zing, whilst invalidating our very real experiences. Yes, there are stupid stereotypes around Americans; most aren’t correct. Some are, and the same applies to the other native English speakers – us and Canadians and Brits, and South Africans and Irish and Kiwis.

    But the idea that the majority of Americans don’t know much about anywhere else on this big blue planet isn’t a stereotype, it’s actually true.

  • STM

    I notice we’ve gone full circle here with Dan giving us the benefit of more dunderheaded ideas. Perhaps that’s where we all drop off this thread …

  • roger nowosielski

    @227

    They don’t, STM, ’cause they don’t have to.

    They’re Americans!

  • Zingzing

    Much of the world’s people live in a bubble. And thanks to the 24-hour “news” cycle and the world wide web, that bubble is both growing and being filled with more hot air.

  • Zingzing

    But many people live in a bubble created by poverty and/or repressive gov’t.

  • STM

    OK Zing, here’s an exercise for you to ponder but it requires you read the whole post, not the first three lines – otherwise it means diddly. Please bear with it and tell me whether that’s the kind of stuff you were taught in US schools:

    As standard high-school history lessons, so maybe four or five lessons a week, I learned in pretty fair detail about:

    Early man; cave man; bronze age, iron age, pre-Roman Britain and continental Europe;

    Rise and fall of the Roman Empire with focus on the Roman invasion of Britain, and the rise of the Byzantines (the Eastern Roman Empire); the Ottoman Empire

    Celtic, Viking and Anglo-Saxon settlement of Britain, with additional focus on the Barbarian tribes of continental Europe (Huns, Franks, Vandals, Visigoths, Lombards, etc) and movement of peoples during the shifting settlement of Europe. Barbarian invasions of continental Europe by the eastern barbarians (Genghis Khan and his horrid mates).

    Anglo-Saxon Britain in detail, including laws and customs, battles with the Vikings and Celts, settlements, the Danelaw (Viking settlement of a huge area of Britain) etc.

    Dark ages; middle ages, the renaissance, the industrial revolution (starting in Britain, but also looking at the later rise of industrialism in continental Europe and the US).

    The Norman invasion of Britain in 1066 and its subsequent massive impact on the modern world (including the rise of the English language and English law and custom that became the basis of all our laws in the English-speaking nations), the Wars between England and France, with detailed study of the battles of Crecy and Agincourt; the Magna Carta, the Tudors, the defeat of the Spanish Armada, rise of protestantism; the Act of Union; the jacobites; Catholicism, the English Civil War, constitutional monarchy and the stripping of power from the monarch and the handing of that to the people after the execution of Charles I. The English Bill of Rights, the Glorious Revolution, the French Revolution, absolutist Spain and its empire, the rise of Russia and Germany as colonial powers.

    Slavery, parliamentary democracy, the white settlement of America and Canada, white discovery and British and European settlement of the South Pacific (Australia and New Zealand and the islands claimed by the British; plus French polynesia).

    The American revolution and declaration of independence; the founding fathers of the US and what influenced their thinking; the War of 1812; settlement of the American west; the American Civil War, its causes and results. End of slavery in the British Empire, Britain as the first modern superpower and the rise of the Royal Navy to police it.

    The rise of the British Empire and significant moments such as the loss of the American colonies, colonisation of Australia and Canada and New Zealand, and military campaigns such as the major naval battles, including the defeat of Spain and France at Trafalgar, The Nile, the Peninsular War, and the first and second defeats of Napoleon by the British and their allies (first in Spain and Portugal and then later at Waterloo), Crimea, Franco-Prussian War, the Zulu war, Boer War, World War I and WWII (with particular emphasis on the role of the Commonwealth nations and the US), Britain’s small wars around the globe, in both global conflicts) the Malayan campaign and the suppression of communism, Konfrontasi, Suez, the middle-east, the Korean War, Vietnam War; rise of Japan, end of colonialism, atomic bomb, American magnanimity that enabled the industrial rise of post-war Japan and Germany; Marshall Plan; Berlin Airlift, cold war, the Russian revolution, the rise of the USSR and its role in the defeat of Nazi Germany; and the communist victory in China, rise of apartheid in white-ruled southern Africa (Rhodesia and South Africa). In-depth look at Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler and Stalin, plus some of the lesser-known personalties of WWII including Hideki Tojo, Emporer Hirohito, President Truman, former British PM Neville Chamberlain, and France’s Marshall Petain (Vichy) and De Gaulle (Free French).

    Penal settlement and free settlement of Australia and federation and the States; the Maori Wars; Colonisation of Africa and British India and revolution and the loss of the Spanish and Portuguese colonies in the Americas.

    Gradual rise of US world influence from the late 19th century, but mainly 1918 to 1941, including American colonisation of the Philippines, the Pacific and the Caribbean); rise of the US as a superpower, 1941 to the present day.

    I probably haven’t mentioned everything,as it was 40 years ago and that was in the first four years.

    If you wanted to study it further and in more depth, in the final two years of high school you could choose to narrow it down a bit and study either Ancient History or Modern History.

    The reason I understand a lot about the US is because I also understand a lot about where it came from (and we’re not just talking the Magna Carta, which actually wasn’t that great a document until someone added the words “due process” to part of it in the 14th century, thus providing the basis of a key amendment to the US Constitution) and that’s because I was taught about it in school. The ideas behind the establishment of the US weren’t plucked from thin air; they mostly existed and were already in practice even in the 13 colonies. Only the 9th amendment had no obvious basis in existing legislation or statutes or common law and constitutional tradition, but there IS an argument for that one too. If Americans really wanted to understand their own traditions, culture and system of government, rule of law, etc, they do need to go all the way back to Roman Britain, or at the very least to Anglo-Saxon England, and to study their own country in concert with the country that sired it. We weren’t taught in a one-eyed fashion; it was all based on fact, not myth. There was no jingoism involved.

    That was the focus for us … and because it gave me a wonderful understanding of the history of the English-speaking peoples, it also gave me a decent understanding of world history too.

    Geography wasn’t bad, either …

    And I know for a fact that history and geography is not generally taught as part of the US high-school curriculum in such depth and so braodly.

    Really, they should be.

    Besides, it’s all hugely fascinating. There is no such thing as too much learning.

    Doc, do you remember learning about all this stuff??

  • zingzing

    frankly, stm, i know about most of this stuff, but i dunno what was taught to me when. in middle school i remember being taught state (meaning north carolina) history, as well as civics, etc, and u.s. history. in high school i got specific courses in us, european and world (excluding focus on the first two, although incorporating those as they came around) history. i also took advanced placement (i don’t know how that translates to you, although it’s pretty much what it sounds like,) classes that were focused on specific points, including the cold war (modern, by choice) and greco-roman history (ancient, by choice). nothing you mention is all that foreign to me. we weren’t taught with myths, no matter what you think. i took plenty of history courses, although i’ll admit that there was never a straight geography course in high school. (there was one in middle school, although i’d say it was more about being able to read maps than memorizing the locations of every border on the planet.)

    i know i’m not going into the detail about my high school years like you did, but i simply don’t remember when i was taught what. i keep on learning, and it’s been too long (and plenty of drugs) in between. your memory seems rather knife-sharp, however… maybe you have some secret edge. like 20/20.

    and then i went to college, where i minored in history, although with a particular bent towards (and you’ll love this) mythical history. i was interested in stories. took two courses on atlantis, of all things. my interests have drifted far from that, but i still appreciate how such stories flourish, and why they’re bunk. also took one on flood myths, and one on shakespeare’s sources, although i don’t remember if that counted as history or lit. think i kind of got my advisors took overlook a lot of that shit anyway. i had my way with my advisor, until she up and died. and then i had a new advisor, who whipped me.

    lots of people like to put down the american education system, and there are some problems with it. but if the student and their parents put in the time, people can come out with a good education. my public school district was not the best, but certainly not the worst, and they offered loads of different programs. when someone comes out stupid or fails to come out at all, part of the blame is on the individual, not the system. some people don’t get out of middle school, and yes, they’re taught like children, because THEY ARE CHILDREN. but most people with a diploma are taught along the same lines you were.

    i’m sure you’re very happy to posit your prep education as vastly superior. maybe it is. it’s not the type of thing i’d be all that willing to claim. did they teach you humility? (take this with the grain of salt you’re attempting to rub in my eye at the moment: seems like you believe your education to be the gold standard of all god’s gifts. i’m sure australian-taught geniuses will corner the global markets any day now.)

    you also seem to think americans are taught myths. i haven’t been in the formal education system in about a decade now, but we weren’t taught myths. maybe they are now. i dunno. you seem to know. but maybe that’s just a myth.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Jordan –

    Is that you? I know I’m pretty naive, but the Jordan Richardson in those pictures would give Zoe Saldana a run for her money…and in my book that’s high praise….

  • Zingzing

    “OK Zing, here’s an exercise for you to ponder but it requires you read the whole post, not the first three lines…”

    Condescension 101. Grade A+

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Stan –

    For my part, I know nearly all of that…but very little of it came from school. I read history as a hobby of sorts – in the middle of yet another book on Trafalgar, and still spending my time on the porcelain throne perusing the Seven Military Classics of Ancient China. If I had depended solely upon what I learned in school, I’d be a dummy.

    My youngest son (who just graduated high school last week) today thought that WWI began in 1891, and that WWII started about twenty years later. As shocked and as disappointed as I was (and while I took the time to patiently educate him), I remembered that his talents lie in a different area – he’s very much like a young Jim Carrey. He’ll never be an historian (amateur or otherwise), but he just might be a great comedian.

  • STM

    Zing, you have a really big chip on your shoulder mate. I don’t posit this as being superior, nor would I make those kind of remarks to you. What I’m saying is that the average American kid isn’t taught this stuff in high school as a part of the normal curriculum.

    That doesn’t translate as me thinking anything’s superior; I know for a fact only a fraction of the stuff listed is taught in American high-school history classes.

    It translates in my view as a mistake within the US state school curriculum.

    Through the course of this thread I’ve rapidly come to the conclusion that in the real world, if your persona isn’t just pixels on a screen, you’re not the kind of bloke I’d want to have a beer with because I’d be thinking all the time about giving you a good smack in the mouth, which tends to ruin the moment. I probably wouldn’t do so these days as the world’s moved on from that kind of stupidity but it’s probably still lucky this is only a virtual argument.

    Seriously, you fair-dinkum come across as an arrogant, prize pain in the arse with a flawed and totally unrealistic point of view when it comes to this one aspect of your own country. Come to think of it, you arc up deluxe anytime anyone says anything about your country.

    I don’t know what you’ve got stuck up your bum, but it seems almost certainly cucumber-sized at the very least.

    The great paradox of where this thread has gone is that you, while arguing against American stereotypes, can’t see how arrogant you seem yourself.

    Also, please stop bullsh.tting us. American kids don’t learn all that stuff in high school as a matter of course, even though some might, and you and I (and Jordan, Glenn and Doc) know it.

  • STM

    Hey Glenn, I reckon American kids SHOULD be taught all that stuff; that the’re not isn’t their fault.

    As long as you’re not driving the porcelain bus, all’s good :)

    I think the truth is, zing protests a bit too much, is a bit TOO defensive, and that’s because he thinks he can pull the wool over our eyes and bullsh.t us because we’re not in the US (today) and therefore our views aren’t real and don’t count.

    I’ve gotta go … I need to do virtual penance, enter a virtual plea of guilty, and issue a virtual apology to zing for the virtual nose reconstruction he is currently undergoing.

  • STM

    Zing, I’ve heard that in America, no one’s sh.t stinks. Can you enlighten me on that one? I don’t live there, and it’s been a long time since I’ve been in a US dunny.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Roger!

    I am happy to see you. Drop me a line. I came here on the chance that you would be more inclined to post than to let your friend know you are okay. ;-) I hope you are feeling better, Roger.

  • roger nowosielski

    I wasn’t up to it yet, Cindy.

  • Zingzing

    STM, I think you may want to smell your own shit before asking about mine.

    “i know for a fact only a fraction of the stuff listed is taught in American high-school history classes.”

    Well, I don’t know where I was then.

    “Come to think of it, you arc up deluxe anytime anyone says anything about your country”

    Really? Or is that you just making shit up again?

    “it’s probably still lucky this is only a virtual argument”

    Big man…

    “The great paradox of where this thread has gone is that you, while arguing against American stereotypes, can’t see how arrogant you seem yourself.”

    I realize that saying Americans aren’t a nation of stupids makes me the most arrogant person on this earth. But you really need to look at how your words make you look as well. You’ve been acting superior, or at least acting like other people are inferior to you, since the start of this thing.

  • Zingzing

    But you’re right in that some of the courses I took were not part of the normal curriculum. But I took courses that any kid could take in the public school system. You could concentrate on liberal arts or math/science or vocational classes, although you could mix them up if you wanted. I just happened to go down the liberal arts line pretty exclusively. Still, the classes I took were available to anyone with the desire and decent grades.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    Doc, do you remember learning about all this stuff??

    Most of it, yeah, but high school (the academic part of it at any rate) passed in a bit of a blur, so I can no longer distinguish what was in the curriculum from what I picked up from my own reading, listening and viewing. I was, and still am, a voracious knowledge-seeker. I probably learned more in the library than in the classroom.

    I don’t know how it was in Australia (sounds like all the history teachers there were on speed, frankly!), but I can tell you for sure that our history lessons were nowhere near that comprehensive.

    I distinctly remember learning about the feudal system in medieval England, watching a docu-drama about the Civil War (no, zing, not that Civil War), and taking a six-week liberal arts course called Caribbean Studies, which covered the European colonization of the West Indies, the displacement and extermination of the indigenous population, and the slave trade. (I particularly recall having to write an essay from the point of view of a slave.) But that’s about it. There must have been a whole bunch of other things we were taught, but I don’t have a memory of them.

    Also, I dropped history in favour of geography at 14 when I decided on my O Level options (this was long before GCSEs). I would have liked to take both, but the way my choices worked out I wasn’t able to.

    (Not that geography turned out to be a good move. The local education department suddenly decided to change the syllabus halfway through the O Level course, so that we had to discard almost everything we’d been taught for an entire year and start again from scratch. By gum, Mr Cooper was pissed off – and he was a pretty easy-going chap.)

    I will say, though, that the British perception of history can be just as skewed as the American one. Did you ever read the hilarious book 1066 and All That, which lampooned the way schools taught history? A spoof, of course, but firmly grounded in truth.

  • troll

    pdf => The whole world has turned upside down in the past eighty years but one thing has seemingly remained the same: Kids don’t know history’ (Wineburg)

    it would appear that problems in the high school history department aren’t limited to the US

  • Glenn Contrarian

    zing –

    I wish you had the opportunity to go over to the Philippines to see what happens around graduation time. Schools, universities, and parents hang banners for all to see just how well this or that student performed. The newspapers print lists congratulating students who have just passed this or that certification or was awarded a degree. Pick a bookstore, and fully half the books therein are textbooks or help books for learning a subject or for test preparation for certification.

    When one sees all that, one cannot help but realize just how far America’s society has fallen when it comes to the value our society places on a quality education. Of course not all Commonwealth nations are as ostentatious about it as the PI, but their societies still place a significantly higher value on education than we do.

    And I think that’s what Stan’s driving at – Americans aren’t stupid, but our society, our culture does not place a high value on education anymore…and it shows in the ignorance (not stupidity, but ignorance) of our people. Witness the ongoing efforts of the conservatives to “educate” our kids on the falsity of evolution and global warming!

    BUT WE’RE CERTAINLY NOT THE WORST OFF. Check out this report about the state of education in Russia, where nearly one-third of the people polled think the sun orbits the earth, twenty-nine percent think the humans battled the dinosaurs for supremacy, and fifty-five percent think that all radiation is man-made.

    So we ain’t the worst…but we sure as heck are far from being the best.

  • STM

    Lol. Yeah, Troll, nice link.

    I found the study of Aussie history pretty bloody boring. You could cover most of it in a month out of a whole six-year syllabus, but we’d always come back to it after studying something else to examine the Australian experience of something – like WWI. I’d assume the same thing applied in Canada. Much of the focus of history classes in the US too is based almost wholely on the US experience (or, going back a bit, the American experience). Jordan could fill us in on the Canadian bit.

    Glenn, I believe the US produces some of the most academically gifted people on the planet. You only have to look at the US to see that that is the case and how people have gone on to do great things. But it’s in a couple of key areas of the syllabus (in general across the US) that it falls down in my view, and that is that the focus is generally on America. Nothing wrong with that up to a point, but given America’s place in the world, I always feel it would be of benefit to everyone if US kids were armed with a bit more real knowledge regarding the rest of the planet.

    I did that list only to make a point to zing about diversity in a study program, and how it looked at other places, views and experiences. It is not the fault of American students, but of the curriculum – and also how that differs from state to state, city to city, county to county.

    Doc, some of what I studied in history WAS studied in England; and yes, a lot of the focus was on what happened around the period a few hundred years before and after Harold copped an arrow in the eye. However the curriculum in both countries dovetailed nicely. I had a great teacher for a few years who encouraged us to study one salient point of a period in history and move around it to find out more. But I believe in Aussie schools now there is even more focus on Australian history. I’d bet you touched on virtually everything on that list at school too. I don’t remember the detail of it all, of course – it’s 40 years ago. One of the dates I always f..ked up was the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk. Probably couldn’t stop sniggering at the name and it put me off.

    BTW zing, sorry for giving you a virtual punch on the snout; I virtually couldn’t help meself. I’ll do better next time. Honest. I promise. I feel like I’ve let the virtual side down by not exercising more virtual self-control. Next time I’ll just bite my virtual tongue and walk off (virtually) so that you can virtually walk off vertically.

  • STM

    Zing: “I realize that saying Americans aren’t a nation of stupids makes me the most arrogant person on this earth.”

    That’s not what I said, zing … at any point in this discussion. Nor do I believe America is a nation of stupids.

  • STM

    I have a point of view (also shared with Jordan) you don’t like or agree with. Fair enough. But you decided the only way to deal with it was to invalidate our experience … calling bullsh.t is still calling bullsh.t even if it is (reasonably) politely framed.

    I bet Donald is loving the way we hijacked his thread, too. Sorry champ :)

  • Zingzing

    Glenn, I’d take those kinds of polls with a big grain of salt. they’re silly little news blurbs in the making, nothing more. Headline: “Russians stupid, readership can feel better about things for a moment.”

    As for the rest, I don’t deny it. We would be in a much better spot if without certain politics shitting all over education in general, or religious delusion invading curriculum, or science being viewed as the enemy. And when someone says everyone should be able to go to college, that shouldn’t be scoffed at as arrogant.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    LOL. Aussie history: the teacher gets to teach for ten minutes and then have a two-hour lunch break.

    The history of Australia, of course, starts with the Aborigines, who migrated south across the Torres Strait, recognized that there was a very strong correlation between history happening and bad shit happening, and very sensibly decided to spend the next 40,000 years not making any.

    Then, 200 years ago, Great Britain dropped off a bunch of convicts and history, unsurprisingly, started happening all over again. “Oh well,” thought the Aborigines, “it was great while it lasted.”

  • Zingzing

    STM, you framed it in a way that got an emotional response out of me. I regret it. I didn’t mean to call bullshit on your entire experience… It’s just that I don’t believe such ignorance is as pervasive as you believe it to be and I think you’re judging Americans by a harsh and somewhat inaccurate standard.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    STM and zing: Shake on it?

    And not one of those grudge-bearing handshakes where you’re both trying to crush one another’s metacarpals into powder, either.

    (zing being at a distinct advantage in that respect, since he’s bitten off and eaten most of his as they were giving him gyp.)

  • STM

    Come on Doc, you know, deep down, I love zing. I like people who are as mad as cut snakes. I have a feeling Zing qualifies.

    Aussie history, shit. Boring … I remember studying WWII and its aftermath and our new relationship with the United States overtaking our dependence on Britain because of the events of the war from our point of view, which was hugely interesting given the global impact, and then the teacher gave us a project to do on Sir Robert Menzies, who had spent a good chunk of the war up to the end of 1941 in London annoying and pestering Churchill and the Canadian PM McKenzie King; his slim support eroded at home, and the pragmatic Labor man John Curtin took over in 1943 and forged a strong alliance with the US, even putting all Australian military forces remaining in the south-west Pacific, including the navy, under US command, and bringing home troops from the middle-east while ties were loosened with Britain.

    Menzies, of course, was an old-school conservative monarchist typical of the Liberal Party of that era. I can still remember the collective look of horror on the faces of my classmates when the teacher asked us to write an 8-page essay on Pig Iron Bob. Somehow Menzies, who once quoted a little piece of Elizabethan poetry as a vomit-inducing tribute to the visiting Queen that contained the words, “I did but see her passing by and yet I love her ’til I die” (which reportedly embarrassed her, and she certainly looked it), later became Australia’s longest-serving PM.

    No wonder we settled into a long period of post-war conservatism and relative obscurity. Curtin took us away from an identity with Britain and looked to the US, while Menzies tried to reverse that to an extent – with the not-so-bad result that Australia became this bizarre, hedonistic cross between America and Britain, transplanted on to a giant continent straddling the Indian and South Pacific oceans.

    Even today, if you were British you would feel totally at home here, usually whilst noticing everything is just a hair different (because of its immersion in American culture and attitudes).

    If you were American, you’d also feel totally at home – while noticing everything is just a hair different, like driving on the wrong side if the road, the Union Jack on the flag, and the portraits of the Queen in public buildings and all seemingly at odds with everything the US stands for, yet in truth, hardly any different.

    The same way Australia’s marsupials are different to other mammals – one looks like a cross between a duck and a beaver – and have thrived on the continent, so is Australia a strange mix of two similar cultures that don’t quite mesh but actually do.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    This should settle it…

    Geography according to zingzing.

    :-)

  • Zingzing

    Actually, some NYC-based website that did that better… Nj was gross, the south was all about food, the southwest was a bad place, Minnesota was “canada’s Mexico” and everything west of mn was the part you fly over to get to Seattle, so that pretty well describes America for me. Gothamist, maybe?

  • Zingzing

    I found it, but doing links is difficult on this device. So, yeah, gothamist. Alaska is marked “Canada.”. Which it might as well be, if the world were a fair and just place and we wouldn’t have to deal with palin.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    The map is wrong – Florida is NOT part of the South! It is the Great Northern Retirement Home…and the fact that they buy the SEC college football championship every few years (just like the Yankees do in MLB) does NOT count.

    You can’t even buy good pit BBQ in Florida – how can they possibly call themselves Southern?

  • STM

    Hey zing,

    I’ve just been lying in a hammock on my back deck having a nice cold drink and watching a spectacular sunset over the water. Now it’s completely gone but there’s a warm breeze and I’m still in the hammock looking up at the constellation of the Southern Cross and a shitload of bright stars (plus the space station, I think).

    I suddenly feel rather relaxed. Sorry for biting your head off. The rest of youse can go and get f..cked!

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Stan –

    Speaking of hammocks, last week we were on a beach in Luzon and my son was lying in a hammock thoroughly enjoying himself. The beach was far enough out in the boonies that a group of kids said (in Tagalog) “Hey – a white guy!” and were all eager to talk to me while we sat on the sand. One even reached out to touch the skin on my foot to see if my skin felt any different.

    There were a couple islands offshore – we went to them ($30 to take 20 of us (out of 35 or so)), and the sand was made from coral and shells, very soft. We were able to walk from one island to the other (the water was that shallow) but the amazing thing was that on our “path” the waves were approaching from both sides at a 45-degree angle to us (a 90-degree angle to each other), and when they merged, there literally was an X-shaped wave traveling along! Sure, it was only one foot high, but still it looked way cool.

    And this week I’m back stateside, not far from Seattle, and wishing my wife would let me turn up the heat – but she manages the money and I don’t argue. Imagine that – 20 years together last week and we’ve yet to argue about money!

  • STM

    Mate, I wish me and my wife didn’t argue about money. Lol.

    Are you just visiting over there Glenn; I knew your wife and son were ready to move there last year.

    The Philippines has some of the most beautiful, warm crystal blue water anywhere in the tropics.

    It’s just looking and you and asking you to swim in it. It’s amazing.

    There is some pretty damn good surf there too, at various places around the islands – up north mainly though.

    Were you up north of Manila in that beach area where everyone goes for weekends and holidays, or somewhere a bit more off the beaten track. You have to get there permanently at some point Glenn if that’s not already the case. You do need to go with money to enjoy it, though, and live the life of a non-working gentleman.

    Is the wife getting cold feet about a permanent move or is she and the young fella now there getting everything sorted out?

  • roger nowosielski

    I second your sentiments, STM, as per #258, concerning “the rest of youse.” Wonder what took you so long to spit it out.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    Roger, I think he was advising that the rest of zing’s now headless body should go out and have a really good time.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    (Just kidding with you a little, Roger. I’m happy to see you about. Hope you feel better and better.)

  • STM

    Nah, just joking Rog. The apology to Zing was fair dinkum though. Just because someone’s being a dick doesn’t mean you can’t like ‘em.

  • roger nowosielski

    Atta man, not a mean bone in your body. Don’t mind a person being a dick, it’s their being “nervous” and so easily irritable that I can’t stand.

    In any case, I was just looking for some more action, that’s all. It was fun while it lasted.

  • Igor

    Why did Trayvon Martin die?

    IMO, the Florida legislature invited vigilante action with the Stand Your Ground Law.

    Absent that law, Martin would probably be alive, Zimmerman would not be facing the ruin of his life, and the Sanford police chief wouldn’t be facing the ruin of his career.

  • Dan

    “That’s funny, I thought you said the science was settled and there was no need for further research. Care to cite some of this research that has been published since the literature review you keep referring to?”—Dreadful (comment 224)

    Never said there was no need for further research.

    I’ve corrected you already on labeling the historic joint scientific statement, Mainstream Science on Intelligence as a “literature review”. Anyone can click the link and see that it is not a “literature review”. The phase “literature review” is nowhere in the text. It is quite absurd of you to continue the charade.

    I”ve also already linked some research that has been published since upon your previous request and you ignored it. It is from the journal Molecular Psychiatry. The study was prepared by a team of 32 researchers (all of them possibly “racist”, headed by the University of Edinburgh’s Gail Davies and entitled “Genome-wide association studies establish that human intelligence is highly heritable and polygenic.”

    “The point is that you have to have acquired a certain amount of knowledge in order to be equipped to pass it.”—Dreadful

    Even after rephrasing your point, It still appears you don’t understand some elementary concepts about IQ testing. It seems odd that you fixate on this. I suggest googling phrases like “crystalized intelligence”, “fluid intelligence”, “”g” loading of IQ tests”.

    “Which can be accounted for by situational factors much more readily than by a supposed genetic predisposition to violence.

    Two strongly correlated factors with violent people are high testosterone, and low intelligence. Both are highly heritable.

    “It’s clear, then, that you consider “Hispanic” to be a separate race than “white”. Why?”—Dreadful

    It’s clear, then, that you found out that I was right, and you were wrong, about blacks being more likely to be charged with a designated “hate crime” than whites, and instead of acknowledging this fact you instead switch the argument to hispanic racial catagorization. Why?

    “… Must be why the FBI statistic for black-on-white hate crime is zero.”—Dreadful

    I’m not going to even ask. You’ve forfeited credibility.

  • Dan

    Now that everyone has had a good look at the current George Zimmerman, he looks pretty diminutive. Looks like the 250 pound description was a lie. Trayvon on the other hand has now been described as 6’2 175lbs. A weight lifting football player who was possibly larger than Zimmerman. If anything, George looks even more hispanic than his pictures.

    I have to admit though, I didn’t expect a murder 2 charge. I guess we will see.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    Never said there was no need for further research.

    Yes, you did, in #102, when you decreed, “And yes, It was the last word in intelligence research. The environmental position has been in retreat ever since that turning point, and with the explosive advancements at the molecular level, it’s over.”

    Anyone can click the link and see that it is not a “literature review”.

    Fine, I’ll give you that one. It’s an outline of general knowledge, then, since it cites no literature.

    It is quite absurd of you to continue the charade.

    Charade? What charade? What would be my motivation for pretending that “Mainstream Science on Intelligence” was a publication of a higher academic standard than it is?

    I”ve also already linked some research that has been published since upon your previous request and you ignored it.

    Because it argues that intelligence is heritable, which I’ve never disputed. What I’m disputing is the correlation to race, and the relative impact of environmental factors versus genetic factors. The abstract (you have to pay to read the full article) doesn’t mention race at all.

    I suggest googling phrases like “crystalized intelligence”, “fluid intelligence”, “”g” loading of IQ tests”.

    Having Googled these phrases, I’m left in the dark as to what point you think you’re making. Can you be sure that the research that you claim shows that certain “races” are less intelligent on the whole than others has accounted for all of these factors? How do you know?

    My concern is that a person, confronted with an IQ test for which he has had no preparation, is less well-equipped to do well on it if he is from a poorer educational background, which in the US means he is likely to be black; and that this has not been sufficiently allowed for by the signatories of “Mainstream Science on Intelligence”.

    Two strongly correlated factors with violent people are high testosterone, and low intelligence. Both are highly heritable.

    Again, I don’t dispute this. But why do poorer areas, on the whole, experience far more violent crime than affluent areas?

    It’s clear, then, that you found out that I was right, and you were wrong, about blacks being more likely to be charged with a designated “hate crime” than whites, and instead of acknowledging this fact you instead switch the argument to hispanic racial catagorization.

    It’s not even the same question!

    (For the record, 5% is hardly dramatic, nor is the difference impossible to account for by the environmental case I’ve been arguing.)

    You’re pretty cunning, and I have a strong feeling you know exactly where I’m going with this, which is why you chose not to answer.

    Now that everyone has had a good look at the current George Zimmerman, he looks pretty diminutive. Looks like the 250 pound description was a lie. Trayvon on the other hand has now been described as 6’2 175lbs.

    [violins]

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    I have to admit though, I didn’t expect a murder 2 charge.

    I’m not surprised at all. The case for applying “Stand Your Ground” was plainly not clear-cut, but neither was the case for George having committed capital murder.

    Even Trayvon’s mother has gone on record as saying she doesn’t think George meant to kill her son.

    Murder 2 makes sense from the prosecution’s standpoint. It leaves wiggle room for the charges to be downgraded or plea-bargained to manslaughter, and I think this will almost certainly be the way things eventually pan out.

  • Dan

    “Yes, you did, in #102, when you decreed, “And yes, It was the last word in intelligence research. The environmental position has been in retreat ever since that turning point, and with the explosive advancements at the molecular level, it’s over.”—Dreadful

    No I didn’t, as anyone can see you accuse me of saying one thing, then quote me saying something different. However, if you mean more research toward exploring such discredited, faith based theories such as Blank Slatism, or Lewontin’s ‘race as nothing but a social construct with no meaningful genitic underpinnings’, then no, there is no need for more research.

    There is also no need to research a geocentric universe model.

    “Fine, I’ll give you that one. It’s an outline of general knowledge, then, since it cites no literature.”—Dreadful

    Well, the “general knowledge” is certainly represented by the peer reviewed scientific literature. The fifty two accomplished co-signers are responsible for much of the literature.

    You haven’t made a persuasive case for denial of the documents thesis. Are you just saying that all the scientists are racist hillbillys who are lashing out over the loss of their “white privilege”?

    “My concern is that a person, confronted with an IQ test for which he has had no preparation, is less well-equipped to do well on it if he is from a poorer educational background, which in the US means he is likely to be black; and that this has not been sufficiently allowed for by the signatories of “Mainstream Science on Intelligence”.—Dreadful

    It is a challenge to construct IQ tests that are loaded with the important “fluid” intelligence (“g-loaded”), while not overshooting a test takers “crystalized” intelligence (learned knowledge). But it is done, and the correlations are there to prove it.

    “Again, I don’t dispute this. But why do poorer areas, on the whole, experience far more violent crime than affluent areas?”—Dreadful

    A lot of people might be poor because they are the type of person that commits crimes. Some people blow opportunities for better economic outcomes by stealing from their employer, or fighting with co-workers, supervisors, customers etc. It could be the ‘chicken or egg’ argument.

    “It’s not even the same question!”—Dreadful

    Yes, that is the point I made.

    “(For the record, 5% is hardly dramatic, nor is the difference impossible to account for by the environmental case I’ve been arguing.)”—Dreadful

    If you divide the percentage (18.5) of designated “hate crimes” blacks are charged with by their representation (13%) in the general population you get (1.42). So without adjusting for the other racial catagories (unknown race, groups made up of various races etc.) you know that blacks are at least 42% more likely than the general population to be charged with a “hate crime”.

    So something that you were so confident about that you didn’t bother to look, turns out to be wrong. How does that make you feel?

    “You’re pretty cunning, and I have a strong feeling you know exactly where I’m going with this, which is why you chose not to answer.”—Dreadful

    I think you’re projecting. It doesn’t require “cunning” to argue race realism. I didn’t realize you were “going with this” anywhere. And I don’t know what it is I “chose not to answer”. It’s getting pretty tiresome though.

    “Even Trayvon’s mother has gone on record as saying she doesn’t think George meant to kill her son.”—Dreadful

    Murder 2 means intentional.

    George sure does look innocent. Everything that has been discovere since the initial pathological hysterial began looks to corroborate his story.

    A photo of George’s bloody head is now released.

    He unexpectedly took the stand today, and he projects a well spoken, intelligent and credible demeanor.

    The lead prosecutor contradicted his own affidavit, answering that there was “no evidence” that George pursued Trayvon after the 911 dispatcher said “you don’t need to do that”.

    George also has lot’s of friends who know him, are friends with him, are well-spoken like him, and consider George and his neighborhood watch activities to be an asset to the community.

    It looks to me like the prosecution is incompetent.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    anyone can see you accuse me of saying one thing, then quote me saying something different.

    Can they?

    However, if you mean more research toward exploring such discredited, faith based theories such as Blank Slatism, or Lewontin’s ‘race as nothing but a social construct with no meaningful genitic underpinnings’, then no, there is no need for more research.

    There it is.

    As far as race being or not being a social construct is concerned, let me ask you these questions:

    1. What race are you? How do you know?
    2. What race is George Zimmerman? How do you know?
    3. What race was Trayvon Martin? How do you know?
    4. What race is this woman? How do you know?
    5. What race is this man? How do you know?

    The fifty two accomplished co-signers are responsible for much of the literature.

    But by no means all of it. Your entire thesis rests on automatically dismissing Lewontin, Schlinger or anyone else I counter with (although actually you’re the one who brought up Lewontin as a strawman), either by poisoning the well or pretending they don’t exist.

    I notice you didn’t comment on my remark that the paper from Molecular Psychology you cited doesn’t even mention race.

    So something that you were so confident about that you didn’t bother to look, turns out to be wrong. How does that make you feel?

    Bored.

    It’s getting pretty tiresome though.

    And yet here you are. Still.

    Murder 2 means intentional.

    Trayvon’s mother is not the prosecutor.

    A photo of George’s bloody head is now released.

    So?

    He unexpectedly took the stand today, and he projects a well spoken, intelligent and credible demeanor.

    And he looks Hispanic, too.

    It looks to me like the prosecution is incompetent.

    It looks to me that what we just had was a bail hearing, not an episode of Perry Mason.

  • Dan

    “Can they?”

    Yes.

    “As far as race being or not being a social construct is concerned, let me ask you these questions”

    You can ask them, and I can say what race or races everyone appears to be, but a more precise assessment can be made for mixed race people by examining genetic markers in their DNA without regard to physical appearance.

    “But by no means all of it. Your entire thesis rests on automatically dismissing Lewontin, Schlinger or anyone else I counter with (although actually you’re the one who brought up Lewontin as a strawman), either by poisoning the well or pretending they don’t exist”

    Again, my thesis is only that race realism is firmly supported by mainstream science. The 52 accomplished scientists, and the scientific literature they are disproportionately responsible for, represent the mainstream. The existence of those few deniers, regardless of how credible their arguments may or may not be, does nothing to discredit my thesis.

    “I notice you didn’t comment on my remark that the paper from Molecular Psychology you cited doesn’t even mention race.”

    If people vary in average intelligence by race, and intelligence is mostly heritable, then the average variance in intelligence between races is mostly inherited. I didn’t think that was a concept that needed explanation.

    “Bored.”

    Me too.

    “Trayvon’s mother is not the prosecutor.”

    She’s also retracted that statement.

    “So?”

    So it’s yet another corroboration of George Zimmermans story and another step towards a truth that demonstrates the irrational, pathologically anti-white, lynch mob mentality of you and several commenters on this thread.

    “And he looks Hispanic, too.”—Dreadful

    “Setting aside the question of what Hispanic is supposed to look like, he also has white ancestry.”—Dreadful (#39)

  • Dan

    Here is a Cartoon that explores some absurdities of “anti racist” dogma in a novel way that may get through to some otherwise inpenetrable mindsets.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    You can ask them, and I can say what race or races everyone appears to be, but a more precise assessment can be made for mixed race people by examining genetic markers in their DNA without regard to physical appearance.

    Exactly. And what percentage of people who take IQ tests do you think are asked for a DNA sample beforehand, afterwards or indeed at all?

    So it’s yet another corroboration of George Zimmermans story and another step towards a truth that demonstrates the irrational, pathologically anti-white, lynch mob mentality of you and several commenters on this thread.

    I’ve said several times here and on a related thread that I don’t think George committed premeditated murder. That wasn’t my primary concern with regard to this case. It was the Sanford police’s apparent eagerness to apply Stand Your Ground in a case that seemed far from clear-cut, and the wider implications for the law itself.

    And since I think race, at least as it is usually categorized and discussed, is a social construct, how can I be “anti-white”?

    “And he looks Hispanic, too.”—Dreadful

    “Setting aside the question of what Hispanic is supposed to look like, he also has white ancestry.”—Dreadful (#39)

    That one went right over your head, as I expected.

  • Dan

    “Exactly. And what percentage of people who take IQ tests do you think are asked for a DNA sample beforehand, afterwards or indeed at all?”—Dreadful

    Although racial catagorization without DNA samples isn’t perfect, it is precise enough to provide a statistical platform with a very slight margin of error.

    Just as an aside, what percentage of people who receive affirmative action benefits, minority set-asides, and other race based preferences “are asked for a DNA sample beforehand, afterwards or indeed at all?”

    “I’ve said several times here and on a related thread that I don’t think George committed premeditated murder.”—Dreadful

    I don’t think anyone has thought it “premeditated”, the call to the police before the incident occured would seemingly rule out premeditation.

    “It was the Sanford police’s apparent eagerness to apply Stand Your Ground in a case that seemed far from clear-cut…”—Dreadful

    I can’t think of any new revelation since the media’s initial biased reporting that doesn’t support a clear-cut reasonable application of stand your ground law.

    “And since I think race, at least as it is usually categorized and discussed, is a social construct, how can I be “anti-white”?”—Dreadful

    Because the now discredited “social construct” argument is used as an instrument to prevent racially aware whites from organizing and advancing their group interests the way all other racial groups routinely organize and advance their interests as a racial group. If race were just a trivial distinction, then whites would have no legitimate reason to oppose their replacement and democratic outnumbering by people who would not represent a threat to their decendents continued civilizational success. But that is not the case as science is demonstrating.

    “That one went right over your head, as I expected.”—Dreadful

    Nope, I caught it. I used your words to demonstrate both the hypocrisy of denying that Hispanics have a “look” (you noticed George looks hispanic) and also implied that it may be George’s “white ancestory” (your words again) that is responsible for why “he projects a well spoken, intelligent and credible demeanor”.

  • STM

    Dan’s still going with this bollocks eh? Doc, you and I both know – when it comes to achievement academically or in the workplace or socially it doesn’t matter what colour you are, provided you have – genuine – equal opportunity.

    Don’t tell me a black kid from the East End going to a state secondary school has the same chance in life as an anglo boy from Twickenham boarding at Harrow. Or make that south-central LA and Orange County. It’s also true that black kids who get the opportunity often do very well. I know of a few here who have done better than most of their anglo-celtic mates but one in particular who was given a chance at a top boarding school in Sydney and let n one down by going on to study law, followed by a job at a well-known international accounting/law firm.

    Blokes like Dan laugh at words like hope and opportunity, but when the playing field is level, and not tied into family cycles of crime, poverty and substance abuse, the story is somewhat different to how Dan presents it.

    Besides, as you and I know, bogth here and in the UK, there are plenty of anglo-celts tied up in those cycles of substance abuse, poverty, crime and public housing who don’t do very well in life, either.

    It takes a special person of whatever race, colour or creed to rise above that; getting handed it all on a platter doesn’t make you that special. And look where some of those idiots end up …

  • Igor

    #276-Dan: that’s funny: I thought Zimmermans police call was intended to provide alibi cover for his stalking. Ironically, it points to premeditation on Zimmermans part.

    “I don’t think anyone has thought it “premeditated”, the call to the police before the incident occured would seemingly rule out premeditation.”

    How could it “rule out premeditation.”?

  • Dan

    “Doc, you and I both know – when it comes to achievement academically or in the workplace or socially it doesn’t matter what colour you are, provided you have – genuine – equal opportunity.”—STM

    STM spouts unsupported dogma. There is an evil to his emotional bigotry that is often overlooked. Linda Gottfredson, professor of educational psychology at the University of Delaware has earned scientific authority in researching race differences. She describes the harm done by mass coercive indoctrination in willfully ignorant views like STM’s this way:

    “Lying about race differences in achievement is harmful because it foments
    mutual recrimination. Because the untruth insists that differences cannot be
    natural, they must be artificial, manmade, manufactured. Someone must be at
    fault. Someone must be refusing to do the right thing. It therefore sustains
    unwarranted, divisive, and ever-escalating mutual accusations of moral culpability,
    such as Whites are racist and Blacks are lazy.”

  • Dan

    “I thought Zimmermans police call was intended to provide alibi cover for his stalking. Ironically, it points to premeditation on Zimmermans part.”—Igor

    Seriously? Can you think of any real life case where that has ever happened?

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    Although racial catagorization without DNA samples isn’t perfect, it is precise enough to provide a statistical platform with a very slight margin of error.

    Again, how do you know? In most surveys involving race, as I have observed before, it is the participants themselves who are asked to identify what race they belong to: hardly an objective measure. I should know: I worked for many years with the federal race/ethnicity classification system (which has been changed many times). If, for example, a woman with a single African-American grandparent self-identified as black, then I would have to respect that in my data recording, even though you would never know by looking at her that she had any African ancestry.

    Couple that subjectivity with the reality that practically no-one possesses ancestry from just a single geographic region, particularly in the United States, and you’re left with a highly unreliable set of data.

    Just as an aside, what percentage of people who receive affirmative action benefits, minority set-asides, and other race based preferences “are asked for a DNA sample beforehand, afterwards or indeed at all?”

    I prefer my red herring kippered. On toast, please.

    I can’t think of any new revelation since the media’s initial biased reporting that doesn’t support a clear-cut reasonable application of stand your ground law.

    The mere fact that there have been new revelations rather scuppers that contention, Dan.

    Because the now discredited “social construct” argument is used as an instrument to prevent racially aware whites from organizing and advancing their group interests

    You’re kidding, right? Did your high school and/or college history classes skip over the last 500 years?

    Nope, I caught it.

    Nope, you didn’t. I was using snark to point up your reliance on appearances: hearkening back to your remark that George “looks Hispanic” in the early stages of our discussion and linking it with your conclusions as to his character based on his demeanour in court.

    I was making no inference whatsoever as to which bit of his ethnic makeup might have been responsible for his actions on the evening of February 26th – whatever they were.

    It’s you who seem to be privy to some kind of magical insight that it’s his white side that accounts for his apparent respectability.

  • Dan

    “In most surveys involving race, as I have observed before, it is the participants themselves who are asked to identify what race they belong to: hardly an objective measure.”—Dreadful

    With advances in analysing genetic markers for racial classification, studies have determined that people self identify very accurately. Here is a 2005 study where out of 3,636 subjects, only 5 self identified incorrectly

    “Subjects identified themselves as belonging to one of four major racial/ethnic groups (white, African American, East Asian, and Hispanic) and were recruited from 15 different geographic locales within the United States and Taiwan. Genetic cluster analysis of the microsatellite markers produced four major clusters, which showed near-perfect correspondence with the four self-reported race/ethnicity categories. Of 3,636 subjects of varying race/ethnicity, only 5 (0.14%) showed genetic cluster membership different from their self-identified race/ethnicity.”

    Researchers have always been careful to confine their race distinctions in the US to “American Blacks” and acknowledge that there is about a 20 to 25% white admixture distributed non-linearly. Same with Whites. There have been some extensive IQ studies of less mixed population groups that have found that National IQ is correlated significantly with how wealthy those Nations are.

    “I prefer my red herring kippered. On toast, please.”—Dreadful

    Not so keen on having your ‘racial ambiguity’ argument refocused on anti-white “social justice” remedies eh? Still, when a company is sued under “disparate impact” law because they haven’t hired the right mix, what is it they are looking for? Someone must know.

    “The mere fact that there have been new revelations rather scuppers that contention, Dan”—Dreadful

    “Scuppers”?

    “You’re kidding, right? Did your high school and/or college history classes skip over the last 500 years?”—Dreadful

    I was refering to what has happened in the last 50. Certainly whites have historically promoted their race consciously, the way other races have done and still do and are encouraged to do. Immigration used to be restricted to whites for example.

    “Nope, you didn’t. I was using snark to point up your reliance on appearances: hearkening back to your remark that George “looks Hispanic” in the early stages of our discussion and linking it with your conclusions as to his character based on his demeanour in court.”—Dreadful

    Again, I recognized your “snark”, then hearkened back to the same conversation (using your response to my remark that George looks Hispanic) as a return snark to imply that Georges virtuous characteristics might be due to his “white ancestry”.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    With advances in analysing genetic markers for racial classification, studies have determined that people self identify very accurately. Here is a 2005 study where out of 3,636 subjects, only 5 self identified incorrectly

    That’s a really interesting paper, Dan – thanks for posting it (I’m not being sarcastic). But… you did read the concluding paragraph, didn’t you?

    You’ve also pulled the “studies show…” trick, when a read through paragraph 2 of the “Discussion” section of the paper makes it clear that what you really meant was “some studies show…”

    In the United States especially, asking someone to identify their ethnic origin is a bit like showing someone a picture of the visible electromagnetic spectrum and asking them if they can spot their favourite colour. If someone self-identified as African-American, and an African genetic marker showed up in their DNA, what are we to make of that? In the US, there’s a near-certainty that other markers showed up as well.

    That’s why I say that race is a social construct. It classifies people based on superficial appearances. While there are genetic differences between populations of humans that correlate with physical appearance, they’re so insignificant compared to other genetic differences (e.g. susceptibility to certain diseases, being tall or short) that I don’t see why it should matter.

    There have been some extensive IQ studies of less mixed population groups that have found that National IQ is correlated significantly with how wealthy those Nations are.

    Bingo.

    Not so keen on having your ‘racial ambiguity’ argument refocused on anti-white “social justice” remedies eh?

    Your paranoia is showing, Dan. Nowhere have I said or even hinted that I’m in favour of affirmative action or anything similar. I’m not. I believe (as STM does, and according to you he is evil for thinking so) in a fair shake for everyone.

    I was refering to what has happened in the last 50.

    If you seriously believe that as a white man you’re worse off than you were 50 years ago, I’ve got some real estate suspended over the East River you might be interested in.

    Again, I recognized your “snark”, then hearkened back to the same conversation…

    Um, yeah. Sure.

    (Now that is meant to be sarcastic.)

  • http://www.RosesSpanishBoots.com Christopher Rose

    I don’t categorise my fellow humans by the colour of their skin or anything like that (well, with the exceptions of the Ginger people of course!).

    I have my own informal way of tagging people that goes something like this:- Totally brain dead; not really worth talking to; shows some potential; and wow, this person can really think!

    It’s not a system that is set in stone and there are lots of impromptu categories that come and go, but generally speaking I find it a more useful way of understanding the world…

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful

    Where’s Dan on that scale, Chris?

  • http://www.RosesSpanishBoots.com Christopher Rose

    Let’s just say left of centre..!

  • Y’all

    “Ginger people”

    We call ‘em rangas (rang-ers) in Oz. I’ll leave all you clever folk to work out why.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/IanMayfield Dr Dreadful
  • Dan

    “That’s a really interesting paper, Dan – thanks for posting it (I’m not being sarcastic). But… you did read the concluding paragraph, didn’t you?”—Dreadful

    It might be interesting to find out what you think the concluding paragraph tells us, but to stay on point, the study relies on a statistical procedure using only genetic information without regard to physical characteristics and has a 99.9% successful classification rate corresponding to self reported racial catagories.

    That accuracy would seem conclusive then to confirm a valid statistical platform for assessing IQ variations between self reported racial classifications.

    That is why scientists who do the research accept the results of group differences in average IQ as meaningful.

    “You’ve also pulled the “studies show…” trick, when a read through paragraph 2 of the “Discussion” section of the paper makes it clear that what you really meant was “some studies show…”—Dreadful

    For the two studies in the Discussion section that argue “poor correspondence” one (Lewontin) uses the technique “of examining the frequency of different alleles (variants of a particular gene) at individual locus (the location of a particular gene).”

    As W.F. Edwards argues in his paper “Human Genetic Diversity: Lewontins Fallacy” “even if the probability of misclassifying an individual based on the frequency of alleles at a single locus is as high as 30% (as Lewontin reported in 1972), the misclassification probability becomes close to zero if enough loci are studied.”

    The other study, (Wilson et al.) argues that analysing the genetic structure of individuals is more informative than using more limited common racial/ethnic identity classifications for the narrow purpose of assessing response to certain drugs. That’s not really relevant to the accuracy of broader classifications such as the ones used for racial groupings in IQ tests.

    “In the United States especially, asking someone to identify their ethnic origin is a bit like showing someone a picture of the visible electromagnetic spectrum and asking them if they can spot their favourite colour”—Dreadful

    Even among the visible spectrum, the reality of a color continuum between primary colors does not negate the reality of primary colors.

    “Bingo.”

    Yes, certainly, Bingo. Societal outcomes of population groups based on average intelligence, not racism or discrimination, have a predictability within the race realism model.

    “Your paranoia is showing, Dan. Nowhere have I said or even hinted that I’m in favour of affirmative action or anything similar. I’m not. I believe (as STM does, and according to you he is evil for thinking so) in a fair shake for everyone.”—Dreadful

    I’ve never said anyone is evil to “believe in a fair shake for everyone”. I said that there is an evil in perpetuating a lie about race differences in achievement because it foments mutual recrimination.

    “If you seriously believe that as a white man you’re worse off than you were 50 years ago, I’ve got some real estate suspended over the East River you might be interested in”—Dreadful

    I personally can’t be worse off than I was before I existed. (or can I?) At any rate I’m doing well. It could be argued persuasively though that Whites as a group could be better off now than they are, without the precipitous influx of non-white immigrants over the last 50 years. See STM and Jordan’s recital of various metrics for “American Decline” and think about how, for instance, school achievment has declined with racial demographic change.

    “Um, yeah. Sure.

    (Now that is meant to be sarcastic.)”—Dreadful

    It’s too bad that my witty (so I thought) rejoinder was wasted. Perhaps it really wasn’t.

  • silence

    We hear of the National outrage and cries of the Blacks and far less of the outrage of the Whites when something very bad occurs. We are a divided country between Blacks and Whites and other cultures, races, creeds and colors. Zimmerman was proven without a doubt to be INNOCENT. This nation will in time come together as one. When all the people are of mixed race and color. This has not been a WHITE nation but one of many colors and races. The Whites have for a very long time now, gone overboard to accommodate Blacks and avoid being titled a Racist. It is fine for Blacks to call slang names of the Whites, comedians to make jokes of Whites, and to create all Black Pagents, Colleges and much more all Black, but if whites did this , there would be yet another out cry or outburst of White racism. Blacks have had the equal and same opportunities there for them if they want to work hard, commit, and stop the desire of what they think crime, drugs, and gangs will provide for them. When all we see and hear involves bad, what else is there to think? We all have the right to make choices, clean up our neighborhoods, education or military, employment, and much more. America brought refugees from Africa ( Somalia) and the majority came to Minnesota to reap the Social System benefits. In turn they have caused so much trouble and demands, crime, outbursts, aggression, Gangs and changed the lives of the Minnesotans for the worst. Minnesotans by the thousands have wanted them out of the state and are very angry the Somalis have created so much trouble. They cannot even walk down their own neighborhood streets as they had, due to the criminal activity of the Somalis. You would think them to be grateful but it has not been that at all. Read about it in Somalis in Minnesota or Minneapolis. Under CRIME. There has been so many incidents of Blacks who have hurt, killed, raped and much more, many White children too but we do not even hear of the stories nor are there any National Outcries. When a little twelve year old girl was taken behind a motel near where a GANG of Black Somalis hung out day and night, as she walked to a little neighborhood store she had walked to many times, was grabbed and gang raped, did the Whites even been given the right to a National Outcry. When a little boy was taken into the public bathroom of a Park and beaten so badly he nearly died …for NOTHING , by Blacks, was his voice ever heard. When the Black gangs shoot out the windows of a home where a White family resides and a baby dies of gunshot wounds, Where was his Civil and Human rights? Will the blacks RIOT and burn down their own city and neighborhoods because a Black man was beaten by Police, and loot the very neighborhood stores, rape, beat and mutilate the innocent of large cities again? Would they have if Simpson had been found GUILTY of murdering his wife and her friend? In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, during a time of horror and despair, many homes and businesses were looted by Blacks, on camera, not for the basics of life but for money, jewelry, technical devises, and more. Why is crime so prevalent in Black communities and by Blacks going into other communities? Of course there will be anger, racism, prejudice, fear, and people will try to defend their neighborhoods. If we cannot defend ourselves of all this crime, then we allow the Criminals to gain all the control and the innocent will be taken by these criminals. If guns are outlawed in America, all the criminals will of course have guns and the innocent have nothing in defense. This Nation has gone overboard to welcome and treat all citizens and even those who are illegal aliens, fairly and equally. Americans have provided for all! Slavery ended before we were even born, so the cry of slavery is of ignorance. Blacks have not been Oppressed, Suppressed, or Depressed and it is time to take responsibility for their own individual lives and not for an entire race and color of an entire group. It is always a shame, and a tragedy to see a young MAN die.Yet the truth of what and why this happened is clearly because he attacked a man who defended himself and Proven Innocent.

  • dede anderson

    he kill trayvon martin becaues he was black thats all why he did it for