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White House/Fox News Feud Heats Up Over the Weekend

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Since the White House/Fox News feud began, comments, concerns and opinions have been circulating from the media, pundits and politicians. This weekend they intensified, with the Sunday news shows weighing in on the drama. Today, Fox.com: Politics headlined the latest White House strategy, "White House Urges Other Networks to Disregard Fox News", noting that Senior Obama officials took to the airwaves Sunday––the feud heats up!

As I was finishing my opinion piece on this saga yesterday, in the background was Chris Wallace, Fox News Sunday, and lo and behold, Wallace was addressing the White House’s attack on Fox News. Wallace opened his show by stating that they wanted to ask Anita Dunn about her criticism, but as usual, ACCESS DENIED! In fact Fox News Sunday has been denied access to any White House official since August. So instead, Wallace's guests included Terry McAuliffe and Karl Rove debating the issue. Karl Rove likened the White House's approach to handling criticism and questions to Chicago style politics, "if you don’t like the questions that are being asked…then you try and demonize…” Rove later added, “they called Fox News a White House enemy.” “That is over-the-top language––we heard that before from Richard Nixon." “And we have this White House prone to that kind of attitude and it’s not helpful. It’s demeaning to the president…”

Meanwhile, other Sunday news show hosts were prepared with their questions, yet they had access to White House officials. David Axelrod, Obama Senior Adviser, appeared on ABC's This Week. George Stephanopoulos played a statement by Rupert Murdoch in response to the "strong remarks" made by the White House, pointing out that the attention has “tremendously increased Fox News ratings.” Stephanopoulos opened up, “that does seem to be true, are you worried that your strategy is fortifying the enemy?” Axelrod reacted, “I’m not concerned. Mr. Murdoch has a talent for making money…” “The only argument that Anita was making is that they are really not a news station…” Axelrod added, "The bigger thing is that other news organizations like yours ought not to treat them that way." "We're not going to treat them that way." But Axelrod did says that they will appear on the Fox News shows––no date set. White House Chief of Staff, Rahm Emanuel, appeared on CNN’s State of the Union, where John King asked, why––"I'm trying to get behind the curtain and understand why your White House has decided that it is in its interest to have this, boom, with our rival, Fox News." Emanuel replied by stating that they and the President don't see Fox News as a news organization, emphasizing that they don't want "the CNN's and others in the world to be led in following Fox, " calling them an illegitimate news organization––"in the sense of both sides and a sense of value opinion.”

Will the White House/Fox News feud continue? Or as Anita Dunn recently told The New York Times, Fox News is an opponent, calling it a war, “as they are undertaking a war against Barack Obama and the White House, we don’t need to pretend that this is the way that legitimate news organizations behave.”

Interesting discussions this past Sunday, but some questions remain; is this smart strategy by the White House or over-the-top nonsense? Will Fox News behave? Will President Obama or his administration ever appear on Fox News? I report, you decide.

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About Christine Lakatos

  • duffy

    Hope this backfires on the White House or the United States is in far dire straits that supposed.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos-/ Christine

    Me too, duffy!

  • quimo

    Consider the fact that Chris Wallace just appeared disguised on Glenn Beck’s show to bash Dunn (his son went to the same school that Dunn spoke at).

    Stupid move by Wallace, the “serious” journalist at Fox.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Quimo, the article you link to is entirely speculative with no evidence to back it up. And even if it IS true, does Wallace not have the right to be a concerned parent or a concerned citizen?

    Dave

  • zingzing

    paying attention to fox news is like paying attention to a petulant teenager. maybe you need to at some point or they’ll blow some shit up, but for the most part, just ignore them and america will grow out of it.

    seriously, if anyone on the right wants to be viewed with any legitimacy, get the fuck away from fox news. they’re just using you.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    seriously, if anyone on the right wants to be viewed with any legitimacy, get the fuck away from fox news. they’re just using you.

    You’re actually buying what a lying Chicago thief would tell you, zing? I thought you were smarter than that. You disappoint me terribly. Obviously, living in Brooklyn has taught you nothing….

  • zingzing

    ruvy: “You’re actually buying what a lying Chicago thief would tell you, zing?”

    i didn’t say whether i do or not. i just say i don’t trust fox news.

    “I thought you were smarter than that.”

    no you didn’t.

    “You disappoint me terribly.”

    no i don’t.

    “Obviously, living in Brooklyn has taught you nothing….”

    sure it has. i don’t have a tv.

    fox news is an abomination. (go ahead and make up a new catch phrase with that one.) obama may be struggling with the transition from one of the crowd into the president, and i expected nothing less, but i do believe he has my (and our) best interests at heart. he’s not a socialist, not a communist, not a nazi, not out to destroy israel, not from nigeria, not muslim, not trying to kill grandma, not trying to destroy america and not a racist. (and those are just his “not” good points.) if the right would stop being such political dill pickles and actually try to reasonably figure out what he’s trying to do, they wouldn’t find it so objectionable as their ridiculous, paranoid fantasies have suggested. he’s just trying to make america better for more people. but they keep getting in the way.

    and if he was trying to take over america, it wouldn’t be this difficult. he’d just say “it would be much easier if i were a dictator,” or something along those lines. (and then, according to you, he’d make it happen somehow.) but he hasn’t. he plays by the rules. and that’s where he’ll meet the challenge. if he’s going to get anywhere, he’ll have to use and abuse those rules. politic his way around them. figure out how to stay in bounds while getting away with it. that’s the way we have politics set up in america. bush just walked all over the rules. obama, thus far, seems content to follow them. and that’s why he struggles.

    he has a good lot of people behind him. but he’s got a bunch of people who will criticize him for sneezing the wrong way. he could bring back jesus or produce atlantis and the right would bash him for it. you know it, i know it. he is relatively far left for a president. and he is… well, we’ll just leave that one be. there’s a lot of “bash obama because he’s obama” bullshit out there. as much as there was “bash bush because he’s bush” (which has a more poetic rhythm to it, you must admit). but at least obama isn’t starting cultural/religious wars and thinking “i’m the decider” is a smart thing to say.

    blar blar.

  • zingzing

    “but they keep getting in the way.” of course, that refers to republicans. or right wingers. but you take it whatever direction you want to.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    zing, [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

    So, you bought Barry Soetoro, hook line and stinker. Let’s talk about honesty for just a second. In 2004, the Sunday Standard in Kenya carried this headline… Kenyan-born Obama all set for US Senate. When a local boy makes good, the folks at home crow, no? Why should the Sunday Standard lie about bragging about a home-boy made good?

    You can bet your bottom East African Shilling that you could not get the editor of today’s Sunday Standard to admit his paper ran such an article. “Accidents” of the strangest kind can happen. But find the actual paper article, and you start to unravel the legitimacy of this faker Soetoro. When the prick coughs up a legit Hawaiian long form birth certificate, and opens his records up to scrutiny, then I’ll believe him. But he won’t. He is not a US citizen.

    zing, not too far away from you is a bridge I can sell you – you in the market for bridges? [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor]

  • Jordan Richardson

    you bought Barry Soetoro, hook line and stinker

    Yeah, and you buy the WorldNetDaily the same way. They’ve already been outed as lying sacks of crap and already have stories from people faking birth certificates for the god damn US president, for crying out loud. How badly do these people want their little “theories” to be true? Bad enough that they’re willing to fudge the evidence.

    And you’re right in line with them.

    Face it, you already have your mind made up anyways. You’ve said that he has to open up his records to “scrutiny” in order for you to believe him, but for the time being you’re going with the idea that he’s not a US citizen. Bravo, you’re deciding on little to no evidence that the guy’s not a US citizen. You are a fear-driven individual with no apparent understanding of how the internet or new media works or how easy it is for a non-story to get wings these days. You probably also believe that a certain Nigerian prince is going to deposit some money in your account (or shoebox).

    Why should anyone open up anything to you or people like you for “scrutiny” when it’s not the facts you’re interested in?

    It’s theories like this and little articles like this (the fucking White House vs. a television network? Really? Seriously?) that just keep me laughing and laughing and laughing through the day (sometimes I yell when I’m laughing).

    The least I can do is thank Dave Nalle, Ruvy, Christine, Arch Conservative, etc. for a good hearty laugh when I need one.

    So, in all sincerity, thank you for proving that, to get somewhere in today’s world, you don’t need facts or figures or even common sense to run the risk of being credible. You just need a computer and an opinion.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Gee, thanks, Jordan. Always good to know that you’re entertained at least. Half of writing is entertainment. Ask any sports writer. Just like “95% of life is just showing up” [Woody Allen]. Hey, when the world collapses around you and your realize that the crazy Jew from Samaria was RIGHT, I’ll have my laugh. And not just at you.

    Have a great morning! I’ve had a great one!

  • pablo

    Ruvy,

    I supplied the archived link to Kenya’s Sunday Standard story about Obama being born there on the “Political Dogma Over Scientific Fact – That’s the Republican Way” story, comment 53.

    Jordan Richardson might do well to stick to music reviews. Speaking of which I scanned his music blog and didn’t see a single section for The Grateful Dead or Reggae! I guess the word hip is not part of his lexicon, particularly where good fucking music is concerned. :)

  • Clavos

    seriously, if anyone on the right wants to be viewed with any legitimacy, get the fuck away from fox news. they’re just using you.

    That’s how I like my sex: illegitimate and being used.

    Must be why I like Fox, eh?

  • Clavos

    …but i do believe he has my (and our) best interests at heart.

    For a New Yorker, you’re quite naive, zing.

    …not trying to destroy america…

    Destroy? No, or at least he (and you) doesn’t think so. Remake into his vision? Yes, and ultimately that will destroy it.

    …he is relatively far left for a president.

    That he is, and it’s not a good thing.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Looks like the BC feud heats up too! Thanks for the compliment, Jordan. I have to admit, BC makes me laugh too…for real!

  • STM

    Ruvy: “Why should the Sunday Standard lie about bragging about a home-boy made good?”

    Because it’s Nairobi and people sometimes get their stories mixed up, especially when English isn’t their first language and they’re speaking to Americans.

    But if you go the Standard’s website, search for Obama, and you’ll find a story about five stories down on the first page saying his father (who had the same name) was born in Kenya, but the President was born in Hawaii.

    See what I mean … it’s never what you think, Ruve. Nothing’s cut and dried :)

  • STM

    I notice that unlike the story I saw, the one you’ve presented there isn’t archived. It’s a supposed screen shot. It’s not out of the actual newspaper: No newspaper has that much white space between paragraphs. NO newspaper.

    I reckon it’s a fake.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    STM: I think it depends on what browser you use? But then again, what do I know?

  • Baronius

    This has got to backfire on the White House. Any nonpartisan/media support for the President will look like partisan hackery; any such support for Fox News will make the White House look ridiculous.

    There are only two possible reasons that the White House would pick this fight. One, terribly thin skin (particularly regarding the ACORN expose). Two, they don’t intend to win; they’re just trying to change the narrative. They need to get the talking heads off the subject of Obama’s ineffectiveness or they need to fire up the left wing of their party. In other words, it’s a bid for time.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Hypocrisy x100 Karl Rove likened the White House’s approach to handling criticism and questions to Chicago style politics, “if you don’t like the questions that are being asked…then you try and demonize…” Rove later added, “they called Fox News a White House enemy.” “That is over-the-top language––we heard that before from Richard Nixon.” “And we have this White House prone to that kind of attitude and it’s not helpful. It’s demeaning to the president…”

    I’m glad the White House is finally shooting back at all these so called journalists.

  • zingzing

    clavos: “For a New Yorker, you’re quite naive, zing.”

    and for a mexican, you’re quite american. you’re also naive. there, i said it. makes it true.

    “Destroy? No, or at least he (and you) doesn’t think so. Remake into his vision? Yes, and ultimately that will destroy it.”

    oh, fiddlesticks. he’s not trying to “remake into his vision.” do you not see how impossible that is? are you so paranoid that you reach back to child-like fears? “remake” america… the president doesn’t have that type of power. no one does.

    “That he is, and it’s not a good thing.”

    says you.

  • zingzing

    ruvy: “So, you bought Barry Soetoro, hook line and stinker.”

    i don’t know who that is.

    and stop it with the birther shit. no one cares. it’s nonsense.

  • zingzing

    pablo: “Jordan Richardson might do well to stick to music reviews. Speaking of which I scanned his music blog and didn’t see a single section for The Grateful Dead or Reggae! I guess the word hip is not part of his lexicon, particularly where good fucking music is concerned. :)”

    grateful dead are certainly not hip. (or good.) and reggae, sad as it is, passed its peak 25 years ago.

  • Baronius

    Zing – Slightly off-topic, but your comment about birthers reminded me of something I heard on Mark Levin’s show yesterday. A caller wanted to know what Levin thought about the FEMA camps.

    Levin: Where are the FEMA camps?
    Caller: (pause) Well,…
    Levin: There aren’t any! You’re an idiot! Get off the line! We’ve got enough real things to worry about!

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Fear of a Black POTUS.

    When you boil down all of the clamor & nonsense, that’s really all it amounts to.

    Conscious minorities get it. We always have.

    Conscious minorities in America know that deep down, no matter how much we achieve, what degrees we attain, what professional accolades or awards we earn, or what status we rise to…

    We will still be considered LESS, ILLEGITIMATE & UNWORTHY by a large portion of White American society. The only caviat to that segment, is if those minorities faithfully & unwaveringly adhere to the White Conservative Policy script, and pledge allegience to the White Male Power Structure.

    Is it changing? Somewhat. Population demographics are changing so rapidly that change is unavoidable, but my main point is resounding and unimpeachable.

    The evidence is smeared in blood throughout the sum total of American History, and I defy anyone here to prove me wrong with facts.

    –Cobra

  • Baronius

    Cobra, you can’t make people back down by calling them racist anymore. For some of us, that day is long past. Nationally, that tactic became useless as of Summer 2009.

  • zingzing

    oh, i dunno. you hear about jim demint, ulmer and sellers? at least demint is backing down from his… unfortunate remarks. ulmer and sellers are certainly going to regret their remarks as well.

  • Baronius

    What did DeMint say? I can’t find it anywhere online.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Conscious minority my ass Cobra! I’m part of a very conscious minority, a minority conscious of humiliaton, rape, robbery, enslavement, murder, massacre, and genocide over a period of 2,000 years. One of the reasons I left YOUR broke and bankrupt country was not to be part of the only minority that didn’t benefit from affirmative action. The only “affirmative action” we ever got out of you was assimilation and intermarriage – silent genocide, in other words. That particular benefit I leave for other Jews to enjoy.

    That “scared of a black man as president” shit don’t work with me, dude. I didn’t love it and I left – long before the Kenyan faker showed up on the scene.

    Now the little would-be dictator wants to get rid of one of the major news networks in YOUR country. What little liberty you may have is being destroyued by a thief from Chicago. Your problem is not a “black POTUS” – it’s a traitor selling you all out. Skin color don’t count in tht equation. A traitor is a traitor.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    #26..Good one! #29 Yes, this administration is threatening out liberties, including OUR First Amendment! MSNBC (owned by GE) is far left and full of opinions shows, but the White House isn’t “callin ‘em out”…Hmm, I wonder why? LOL Silence the DISSENT is their motto!

  • zingzing

    baronius: “What did DeMint say? I can’t find it anywhere online.”

    ah, well that’s because i was a little confused. i was mislead by trying to get away from a leftwing site (to try and find a rightwing reaction to it–which pretty much on the money). ahh, the dangers of internet navigation.

    anyway, it wasn’t what demint said, it was what sellers and ulmer said. demint was quick to call them out on it. (good for him.) you can find it by typing his name into google. they basically said demint was like a good jew when it came to money. not so bad on the surface, but it is pretty mindlessly repeating a stereotype. stupid. racist?

    it’s the first news result. and it seems like sellers and ulmer are also apologizing now.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho
  • zingzing

    “#26..Good one! #29 Yes, this administration is threatening out liberties, including OUR First Amendment! MSNBC (owned by GE) is far left and full of opinions shows, but the White House isn’t “callin ‘em out”…Hmm, I wonder why? LOL Silence the DISSENT is their motto!”

    jesus. how is that? as far as i can tell, fox is as loud as ever. so what are you complaining about? and just how is your first amendment being threatened? you seem to be doing fine.

    and correct me if i’m wrong, but i think it was you that very recently called for an outspoken leftist to be “muzzled.” kind of hypocritical, isn’t it? you want someone silenced, then mistake not talking to someone else as being silenced. fox news can talk all it want. he’s just not going to talk to them. then again, he’s not talking to me, and i don’t feel silenced.

    logic is a strange thing.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Zing, which leftist did I want muzzled?

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Baronius writes:

    “Cobra, you can’t make people back down by calling them racist anymore. For some of us, that day is long past. Nationally, that tactic became useless as of Summer 2009.”

    “Back down?” Oh no. You misunderstand me. I don’t want ANYBODY to “back down”. I want people to STAND UP and be accountable for their actions and words.

    Truth be told, I would prefer that racists wear their sheets, shout their slurs and fly their flags openly with pride, instead of perpetrating a fraud in public or cyberklanning online. There are plenty of groups that have absolutely no problem doing that. I want bigots to show the courage of their convictions.

    Moreover, Baronius, you didn’t accept my challenge. I defied those who disagreed with my statement about America’s Racial Inferiority Complex to refute it with facts.

    Stating that you won’t “back down”, might work at Tea Parties, Health Care Town Halls and the pre-NASCAR-tailgate…

    It won’t work here with me on this one.

    –Cobra

  • Baronius

    I’ll give you this much, Cobra. You didn’t call me a racist. But I don’t know if that’s more honorable, or less. You try to get away with insulting “a large portion” of white Americans by not mentioning anyone specifically. The funny thing is, you then challenge anyone to disprove your statement. Your statement that a lot of unspecified people are racists? How is anyone supposed to disprove that? As I’ve said before, the people who cry race put it all on the line when they said that America would never elect a black president. They were proven wrong. That’s fact enough for me.

  • Baronius

    Pardon me. I didn’t refresh before submitting that last comment. My #36 relates to Cobra’s #25.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Oh. Zing I was washing my little doggie (Shorty, my chihuahua and I remembered….Garofalo! She is nut but you are right, free speech for all!

    But what the White House is doing goes beyond shunning an entire news organization and trying to convince people that they are illegitimate…they are trying to sway other news organizations to not pay attention to their stories, like ACORN, Van Jones, health care and whatever makes them look bad even when it is true.

  • Clavos

    Baronius,

    Why do you care what Cobra thinks of “white america?”

    He’s made it clear nothing anyone white says will convince him that all (or most) american whites are not at least closet bigots, which in itself is a form of bigotry.

    I’ve stopped listening to his whining.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Has anyone wondered why Obama has targeted Fox News? Listen to this You Tube video, and see why. The bottom line is this. The only real challenge to Obama’s legitimacy as president is coming from Fox News and World Net Daily. All the rest is bullshit debates over policies that will kill the USA.

    What is the request? For Obama to release a long form birth certificate to show that he is indeed a legit prez.

    So, Obama is going after those attacking his legitimacy – Fox News and World News Daily.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Truth be told, I would prefer that racists wear their sheets, shout their slurs and fly their flags openly with pride, instead of perpetrating a fraud in public or cyberklanning online.

    Why Cobra, I have just the thing for you! Racists wearing their black sheets with pride! Stand up and salute this outfit!

  • zingzing

    christine: “But what the White House is doing goes beyond shunning an entire news organization and trying to convince people that they are illegitimate…they are trying to sway other news organizations to not pay attention to their stories, like ACORN, Van Jones, health care and whatever makes them look bad even when it is true.”

    that’s not true in the least. what makes you think that? he can’t sway a news organization to do anything.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Did you watch the videos from my article? Axelrod and Emanual? Emanual said”emphasizing that they don’t want “the CNN’s and others in the world to be led in following Fox,”

    Following what? Their stories? Their dissent? Their criticism?

  • Baronius

    Clavos, I don’t keep track of people’s names all that well. Maybe I’ve had this same argument with Cobra before; I don’t know. I may miss out on things by not keeping score, but it keeps me from developing grudges.

    (Let’s see, Clavos, Clavos…that name sounds familiar…I think he’s posted on BC before…)

  • pablo

    STM 16

    I referenced the Sunday Standard article in post 12. It is a link to archive.org and is clearly referencing that newspaper and is NOT a screenshot. Nice try though. There is nothing like trying to communicate to one whos mind is already closed on a subject matter STM.

  • pablo

    30 Christine said:
    “MSNBC (owned by GE) is far left and full of opinions shows, but the White House isn’t “callin ‘em out”…Hmm, I wonder why?”

    Clearly, common sense is missing in your argument. One of the world’s largest corporations, and the biggest maker of nuclear power plants is liberal eh? Sure Christine, and there is an easter bunny too.

    What you fail so understand is that this is all controlled opposition, hence you have General Electric leaders Olbermann and Maddow speaking for them. It is as simple as 1,2,3.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Pablo:

    You don’t have to be liberal to get in bed with this White House, all you have to do is get on their team…

    In February, 2009, Immelt (Chairman and CEO of GE) was appointed as a member to the President’s Economic Recovery Advisory Board to provide the president and his administration with advice and counsel in fixing America’s economic downturn.

    And “Cap and Trade” is on its way! Of which there are more big business on that same advisory board. And I think GE stands to benefit there too??

    Please don’t take away my Santa!

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Pablo, whatever the provenance of that link, since when is something reported in a newspaper automatically accurate?

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Baronius writes:

    “You try to get away with insulting “a large portion” of white Americans by not mentioning anyone specifically.”

    I didn’t “try” to “get away” with anything. I wrote it, and stand behind the words. If you read any honest version of American History, you’ll find the text “insulting” about a large portion of White Americans in regards to race. Also, you will find examples of the courage of many White abolitionists, Civil Rights activists and trail-blazers who fought against the established, institutional racism that shackled this country for most of it’s existance.

    Again, Baronius…America is 233 years old. Civil Rights for ALL of America’s citizens has only existed, albeit on paper, for the last 44.

    That, my friend, is INSULTING.

    Clavos writes:

    “He’s made it clear nothing anyone white says will convince him that all (or most) american whites are not at least closet bigots, which in itself is a form of bigotry.”

    Strange dictionary you must have sir, when “a large portion” is defined as “ALL”.

    “I’ve stopped listening to his whining.”

    That’s your right. Just as I no longer communicate with a certain blogger posting on this thread who cheers for the downfall of America. I refuse to respond to his taunts and baitings.

    That’s my right.

    Christine writes:

    “But what the White House is doing goes beyond shunning an entire news organization and trying to convince people that they are illegitimate…they are trying to sway other news organizations to not pay attention to their stories, like ACORN, Van Jones, health care and whatever makes them look bad even when it is true.”

    Their stories, Christine. Remember, you conceded to my post in your other thread about Roger Ailes, and his history as a Republican Political Operative, and if you take for example how Fox News runs their allegedly “fair and balanced” news stories:, and of course, the infamous Fox News Memos, that dictate the agenda for the news division coverage…

    …add this all up Christine, and it’s little more than GOP-TV.

    Again, I don’t have a problem with that, as long as they STAND UP and ADMIT that’s what they are.

    –Cobra

  • Clavos

    Strange dictionary you must have sir, when “a large portion” is defined as “ALL”.

    “He’s made it clear nothing anyone white says will convince him that all (or most)…”

  • STM

    Pablo: “That newspaper and is NOT a screenshot. Nice try though. There is nothing like trying to communicate to one whos mind is already closed on a subject matter STM.”

    No probz Pab … glad I could help you remain close-minded and stuck in the endless consiracy trap.

    Even you must be getting bored with it by now, surely???

    I can categorically state that, with my knowledge of the Commonwealth far exceeding that of most Americans here, the Kenyan Obama birtncertificate presented by the birthers was a fake.

    There are a number of problems with it … not the least being that it is marked with a Republic of Kenya official stamp and dated and signed a year before Kenya became a republic.

    At the time, it was still a Dominion.

  • pablo

    STM

    I was not referring to the fake certificate, I was referring to the story in the Sunday Standard in 2004.

    The Obama birth issue has been going on for some time. Just because some bozo put out a fake certificate does nothing to quell the issue, and is irrelevant.

    Furthermore I have NEVER stated that I thought he was born in Kenya, I have done something you apparently have not done, which is to QUESTION it. That is the sign of an open mind. :)

    I will continue to question it until such time as he releases a long form certificate, which will more than likely be never.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Stan,

    The problem with Obama is not that he is black or mixed race – in fact, that is the ONLY positive thing about him. The problem with Obama is that he lacks integrity, courage, honesty, intelligence and experience running anything more than an ACORN scam.

    He has continued and deepened the fascism that George W. Bush was forced to introduce into America, he has attempted to create a cult of personality, and now his attempts to muzzle Fox News – for the reasons I’ve already given in comment #40 – introduce the other nasty aspect of fascism, news censorship and muzzling of the press.

    His economic policies are driving the Yankee dollar, and the economy it supports, into the toilet.

    I’m astounded that as a journalist, and as someone with some brains in his head, you cannot see the thief rifling through the spoons and silverware in the American house. I’m astounded that you cannot see that a man who will not fork over a $20 bill to get a copy of a long form Hawaiian birth certificate in order to silence legitimate questions about his place of birth and his citizenship, who muzzles school records acting as though he has something to hide, is indeed a man who actually has something to hide.

    What beer has blinded you to basic newspaperman’s suspicion, Stan. What Kool-Aid are you drinking in Oz, anyway? I don’t waste my time referring to the American worshipers of this fake god. They were the idiots who put him in power in the first place! But someone from Oz with the background of suspecting authority because of the evil it does, should surely have more brains!

    For me this scumbag of a “president” has value. So long as Israeli traitors bow to his will, the target mark can be drawn on the Israeli traitors as garbage to be taken out with the rest of the trash. But once we get a strong NATIONALIST government in this country that doesn’t take any shit from anybody, Obama can join the trash heap with all of History’s other shit, to be swept away at convenience. So long as he has power, he will ruin America, and from the looks of things today, America is not likely to ever recover from the “change” he has wrought – there is no “hope” at all.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Again, I don’t correspond with this person directly, but people can see for themselves with the above post my statement in action.

    It’s not enough to disagree politically. It’s not enough to have philosophical differences. Oh no. President Obama graduated Magna Cum Laude from Harvard Law School, and was President of the Harvard Law Review, but he’s attacked by critics for “not being intelligent.” The same applied to Justice Sotomayor, who finished SECOND in her class at Princeton, not to mention our First Lady, who graduated with honors from BOTH schools.

    The Obama Family is the personification of damned near every conservative homilee about “studying”, “staying in school”, “working hard to acheive academic and professional goals”, “marriage”, “family devotion”. I don’t expect political opposition to praise the Obamas for anything. But the message the predominantly White conservative ad hominem attack machine, with Fox News leading the charge, is that NO achievement by a non-White, non-conservative is legitimate, and non-Whites, non-conservatives are suspect, and must be subjected to unprecedented levels of scrutiny. President Obama’s very EXISTANCE constituted a FELONY across large portions of America, and that in and of itself is an ultimate realization of the American Dream for a PLANET with a MAJORITY NON-WHITE POPULATION to witness.

    Again, don’t get me wrong. White Conservatives have every right to do this. I only ask that they be upfront and honest about it, and that they understand the consequences OF their actions.

    Terence Scott comes to my mind immediately, since this is every bit as much his country as it is multi-millionaire media pundits and talk show hosts. President Obama artfully answered his question, but the impact of the statement by young Mr. Scott, which IMHO, is probably in the minds of millions of non-white kids around the world witnessing this is apparent.

    You’re a minority FIRST, and in the minds of many, that means you’re LESS, no matter WHAT you do, or how you live your life.

    –Cobra

    –Cobra

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Cobra, you really should grow a pair and correspond directly with me. Bush’s CIA will not bother you anymore….

    First of all, I’m not one of the white conservatives Christians in the United States. They’re nice folk, at least most of the ones I know, but I’m not one of them. I’m a syndicalist socialist who is a Jew, a Jewish nationalist in MY country.

    Second of all, graduating at the top of your class means you know how to pass the tests of your school. That holds true for any school. Having known a few Harvard graduates, myself, I’m here to tell you that you can always tell a Harvard man – but you can’t tell him much. Obama is the personification of this trait. And this self-same trait (in addition to its many self-inflicted economic problems) is killing off your country. It is one thing to edit a law review – it is quite another to deal with real problems that can have fatal consequences if mishandled. Obama was thought of highly enough to do the former. So far, his performance in the latter is distinctly uninspiring. But you all had an example: as senator, he managed to royally mess up things in Kenya. He sold the lot of you a bill of goods – and you bought it! Some of you are showing the intelligence to display buyers remorse.

    But Cobra, all this has nothing to do with Obama’s skin color. I don’t give a crap that his mother was white and his father was black. I find nothing wrong with racial intermarriage. It can be difficult for the kids of these marriages in a society riven by racial identification, but there is nothing wrong with it.

    To be blunt with you, I dislike Colin Powell for policy reasons. But were I still living in the United States and I had to choose between Colin Powell and Hillary Clinton, I’d pick Powell in a heartbeat. At least I’d know that the man had real experience, real brains, and even if I did not like all that he might seek to do, I would not question his integrity in his efforts to do them.

    And I know where the hell he was born!!! Powell is afraid to tell nobody.

  • STM

    Ruve: “His economic policies are driving the Yankee dollar, and the economy it supports, into the toilet.”

    Geez, Ruve, I dunno … Wall St (and the City of London) did a damn good job of that before Obama got his hands on anything.

    The US dollar isn’t doing that badly.

    You don’t want it to be artificially high anyway, because it buggers up all your export markets.

    The more people have to pay for stuff, when they can get it cheaper elsewhere and of comparable quality (or in the case of motor vehicles, for instance, better quality in some cases), the less likely they are to want to buy it in the first place.

    We’ve had this discussion before … America got wealthy doing what it does best: inventing stuff, building stuff and flogging it off at a profit.

    It needs to go back there before Europe and Japan squeeze the last markets dry of American goodies and China starts to come good (another 100 years on that I reckon)

    Unfortunately, in recent years, Wealth in America has seemed to be more about shuffling bits of paper around Wall St.

    That can only go on for so long before the arse falls out and it all goes pear-shaped.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    You’re not wrong, Stan. The point I’m making is that Obama has only continued, and worsened the idiocies of his predecessors, and the resulting pain will be greater as a result.

  • Baronius

    Again, Baronius…America is 233 years old. Civil Rights for ALL of America’s citizens has only existed, albeit on paper, for the last 44.

    That, my friend, is INSULTING.

    I find it insulting that the Americas have been populated for 12,000 years, and for at least 11,500 of them, people have cut out other people’s hearts. For all I know, some still do. But I don’t know anyone who actually does that anymore, and everyone who used to is dead, so I don’t get awfully upset about it. And I’d rather you didn’t call me a friend. People who instigate racial conflict should be ostracized.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Baronius,

    “I find it insulting that the Americas have been populated for 12,000 years, and for at least 11,500 of them, people have cut out other people’s hearts.”

    Yes, because the “first” worlders like the Vikings, Saxons, Crusaders, and Inquisitors were oh so much more well behaved.

    95% of the indigenous population of the Americas either died of disease, subjugation or genocide after contact with Europeans. Millions of people wiped out.

    You REALLY don’t want me to talk about the millions who died during the chattel slave trade, do you Baronius?

    I’m giving you a chance here. History does NOT support you here.

    Baronius writes:

    “And I’d rather you didn’t call me a friend. People who instigate racial conflict should be ostracized.”

    This from a guy defending Fox News and right winged commentators?

    –Cobra

  • zingzing

    “”I find it insulting that the Americas have been populated for 12,000 years, and for at least 11,500 of them, people have cut out other people’s hearts.””

    good thing we wiped out those godless savages. purposefully spreading disease and massacring them was much more humane.

  • zingzing

    “reservations.”

    “yes, hi, i need to make a reservation.”

    “well, you’ve come to the right place. how many?”

    “my entire nation.”

    “name?”

    “cherokee”

    “can you spell that?”

    “it’s pretty much like it sounds.”

  • Clavos

    95% of the indigenous population of the Americas either died of disease, subjugation or genocide after contact with Europeans.

    95% is pure bullshit. It was nowhere NEAR 95%.

    Millions upon millions of their descendants are still populating all of Latin America, where nearly every country is majority indigenous. The only part of the New World where they truly were eradicated was in the Caribbean, where the Caribs and Tainos were wiped out.

    And, in any case the “indigenous” peoples are in the fullness of the sweep of history, barely more indigenous than the Europeans, they’ve just been here longer. In point of fact, no one is indigenous to the americas. According to Jared Diamond, in his book, Guns, Germs, and Steel, the Americas were the last part of the world to be colonized, and were probably not colonized until between 14,000 and 35,000 years ago, but the oldest unquestioned signs of humans found so far date from only 12,000 years ago.

  • Clavos

    good thing we wiped out those godless savages.

    “We” didn’t. See above.

  • zingzing

    clavos, i was obviously being a bit silly. the point was more that we certainly didn’t display an increased amount of humanity when we came here 500 years ago.

  • Baronius

    Zing, in my comment, I was pointing out the absurdity of being angry about something that no living person did. Don’t you agree?

  • zingzing

    baronius, i actually do agree. but you might have put it better.

  • Baronius

    Well, if we agree, why are we arguing? It’s like you’re running interference for Cobra. I’m all for welcoming and protecting newer commenters on this site, but I’m sick of people injecting race into every discussion.

  • zingzing

    well, i agree with one side of what you say and have to take issue with another side of it. your point is valid. but i’m not sure that the past 500 years of north american history is more humane than what came before.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Clavos writes:

    “95% is pure bullshit. It was nowhere NEAR 95%.

    Millions upon millions of their descendants are still populating all of Latin America, where nearly every country is majority indigenous. The only part of the New World where they truly were eradicated was in the Caribbean, where the Caribs and Tainos were wiped out.”

    Your argument isn’t with me. It’s with historians.

    “In 1976, geographer William Denevan used these various estimates to derive a “consensus count” of about 54 million people, recent estimates are much lower than that. On an estimate of approximately 50 million people in 1492 (including 25 million in the Aztec Empire and 12 million in the Inca EmpireInca Empire
    The Inca Empire was the largest empire in pre-Columbian America. The administrative, political and military center of the empire was located in Cuzco in modern-day Peru….
    ), the lowest estimates give a death toll due to disease of 80% at the end of the 16th century (8 million people in 1650). Latin America would only reattain this level at the turn of the 20th century, with 17 million in 1800; 30 million in 1850; 61 million in 1900; 105 million in 1930; 218 million in 1960; 361 million in 1980, and 563 million in 2005. In the last thirty years of the 16th century (1570-1600), the Mexican population rapidly decreased to about one million people in 1600. The Maya population is today estimated at 6 million, which is the same level as at the end of the 15th century…the indigenous population had declined from a pre-Columbian high of an estimated 4 million to some 300,000.”

    There’s more…

    “Nearly all scholars now believe that wide spread epidemic diseaseList of epidemics, which the natives had no prior exposure or resistance to, was the overwhelming cause of the massive population decline of the American natives…”

    “After the epidemics had already killed massive numbers of American natives, many European immigrants who arrived assumed that the natives had always been few in number. The scope of the epidemics over the years was enormous, killing millions of people—possibly in excess of 90% of the population in the hardest hit areas—and creating one of “the greatest human catastrophe in history, far exceeding even the disaster of the Black Death between 1347 and 1351.”

    Clavos, you can deny history all you like. That’s how things work in Glennbeckistan, I suppose.

    Me? I source my statements for all to review.

    Baronius writes:

    “It’s like you’re running interference for Cobra. I’m all for welcoming and protecting newer commenters on this site, but I’m sick of people injecting race into every discussion.”

    Fox News has a conservative political agenda and often injects race into their coverage. The White House has called them out on it, which is the subject of this thread. Your sickness doesn’t change this fact.

    –Cobra

  • Baronius

    Does Fox News often inject race into their coverage? Did the White House call them out on it? I don’t know either of those things to be true.

  • Pliny the Senior

    Fox news? You should watch a White House press conference sometime. Those things can be more brutal than any Fox news show.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Fox’s opinion-heads [Beck, Hannity] have said plenty of offensive things, and in Beck’s case open race-baiting has been part of the mix. [“Obama has a contempt for the white race, white culture,” etc.].

    But Shepard Smith [highest ratings on Fox] is a straightforward newscaster, maybe a little tabloidish but not a shouting head like O’Reilly et al.

    And I think it’s a mistake for the White House [any White House] to take on a news or opinion outlet directly. Let Democratic/liberal pundits like Frank Rich and Rachel Maddow make the case instead.

    I think the intention is to rebut the strongest rhetoric lest independent voters accept hyperbolic opinion as factual news coverage [which happened, more or less, during August with the town hall ranting]. But I also think Rahm will back down on this, because almost no liberal pundit thinks it’s been a good idea. It just gets Fox more attention.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Handyguy, I like Shep. And America’s Newsroom, and the Live Desk with Martha and Trace are news too. They get to the opinion shows starting with Cavuto. And O’Reily has been easy on this administration, and Greta is just nice! I think this is all about Beck and Hannity, plus distraction and control.

  • Clavos

    Clavos, you can deny history all you like.

    I haven’t denied history.

    I have questioned the implication put forth on this thread that 95% of the indigenous peoples of the americas were intentionally decimated by the Europeans by such means as subjugation and genocide, in addition to disease.

    It’s a version of history that only began to be adopted sometime during the mid-twentieth century, when it became fashionable to revise previously accepted versions of the colonization of the americas by Europeans for reasons having more to do with academic political correctness and dogma than actual history.

    Interestingly, the article cited in the link says, in part: While no mainstream historian denies that death and suffering were unjustly inflicted by a number of Europeans upon a great many American natives, most historians argue that genocide, which is a crime of intent, was not the intent of European colonization while in America…Therefore, nearly all mainstream scholars tend not to use the term “genocide” to describe the overall depopulation of American natives.

    As do all humans, historians can and do have agendas, viewpoints and axes to grind. It’s worth noting that among the historians cited in the link is the infamous Ward Churchill, who has amply and most publicly demonstrated that he is very much agenda-driven in his erstwhile academic endeavors. Churchill is an extreme, and I do not mean to imply that all the historians cited in the link are of his dubious reputation, but it is interesting that he is included in that group, albeit that one of the references to him does point out that he was once caught by his peers falsifying facts to advance his agenda.

    In this thread, we are told, in the space of a handful of comments, that the “genocide” was, in reality, disease brought by Europeans and for which the indigenous peoples had no immunities which actually decimated them. Disease, which though carried by the 15th, 16th, and 17th century Europeans, was not carried as a weapon. On the contrary, given the primitive, nearly non-existent state of medical science in that era, the Europeans (particularly sailors, adventurers, and soldiers) would not have had a clue that they presented any medical danger to the locals, much less that the reason for the danger was a lack of previous exposure and therefore immunity on the part of the indigenous population. It is erroneous, not to mention unfair, to blame European intent for the widespread death by disease which occurred, and the link, as noted above, says so.

    Another point: the link cites much lower percentages in reference to the alleged decimation of the people of the americas than the 95% I contested. I contest even the lower figures. The link cites a population of 50 million overall in the americas, but notes that estimates (and all they can be are estimates, with no empirical data available), vary widely, from a low of under 4 million to a high of over 100 million. Such wide variation obviously casts any estimate, bot of the size of the original population, as well as the size of the depopulation, into the dubious category at best.

    Today’s indigenous population in Mexico alone is estimated at between 16 and 30% of the total population of 109 million, or between 17.4 and 32.7 million people, while the Mestizo (part indigenous, part European) population is estimated at 80% (87 million) of the total. Clearly, these numbers indicate that the depopulation, even by disease, that took place during the late 15th and the 16th, and 17th centuries was far short of “genocide.” One interesting aspect of the contemporary Mexican population: it is, according to Wikipedia, genetically unique in all the world.

    I have lived and frequently traveled on business throughout Latin America over the past fifty years (I am originally from Mexico), and have seen that the populations of most Latin countries reflect the level of indigenous ancestry found in Mexico. In some, such as Bolivia and Peru, the indigenous population approaches 100%.

    It is a heinous calumny to accuse Europeans of genocide in the New World. It didn’t happen.

    Not even the historians say it did.

  • Clavos

    Factual correction: the low end of the estimates for total indigenous population of the americas at the arrival of Europeans starts at 8.4 million, not 4 million.

    Sorry for the typo.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Wow, Clavos, lot’s of detailed facts there..you go!

  • E gor

    “I think the intention is to rebut the strongest rhetoric lest independent voters accept hyperbolic opinion as factual news coverage [which happened, more or less, during August with the town hall ranting]. But I also think Rahm will back down on this, because almost no liberal pundit thinks it’s been a good idea. It just gets Fox more attention.”

    Hyperbole? This isn’t Roosevelt buying up land for National Parks. These are bail outs of cataclysmic porportion.

    “Constructs of constructs. Everything is a construct.”
    -Ecclesiastes, or contemporary interpretation of history

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Clavos writes:

    “It is a heinous calumny to accuse Europeans of genocide in the New World. It didn’t happen.

    Not even the historians say it did….

    …Factual correction: the low end of the estimates for total indigenous population of the americas at the arrival of Europeans starts at 8.4 million, not 4 million.”

    Clavos, please…stop digging on this one.

    The ATTROCITIES that occurred to Indigenous Americans when the Europeans arrived are not only historical fact, but morally indefensible. Take the example of

  • pablo

    Clavos 74

    You have sunk to a new low in your mythological assessment regarding the genocide, yes I use the word genocide against native american people, by white european settlers to the USA. Perhaps your next article will be on holocaust denial by the Nazis.

    Indeed the “civilization” of the world has in point of fact been carried out by the systematic genocide of indigenous people, around the world, for the past 5 fucking hundred years pal.

    I also noticed how slippery your argument is concerning the use of germ warfare to kill native americans. You conveniently left out the 18th century, where it is well documented. Not only documented but with the use of the word extirpate, which means: to remove or destroy totally; do away with; exterminate, as in genocide.

    Here is the supporting documentation:

    Lord Jeffery Amherst was the commanding general of British forces in North America during the final battles of the French and Indian war (1754-1763). During this war, the French allied with the Indians in an attempt to drive the British out of North America. The evidence that suggests a possible “germ warfare” tactic during this war consists entirely of postscripts attached to the ends of two letters from Colonel Henry Bouquet during Pontiac’s Rebellion:

    Colonel Henry Bouquet to General Amherst, dated 13 July 1763:

    P.S. I will try to inocculate the the Indians by means of Blankets that may fall in their hands, taking care however not to get the disease myself. As it is pity to oppose good men against them, I wish we could make use of the Spaniard’s Method, and hunt them with english dogs, supported by Rangers, and some Light Horse, who would I think effectively extirpate or remove that Vermine.

    Amherst responded to Bouquet, in a letter dated 16 July 1763:

    P.S. You will do well to try to Innoculate the Indians by means of Blanketts, as well as to try Every other method that can serve to Extirpate this Execrable Race. I should be very glad your Scheme for Hunting them Down by Dogs could take Effect effect, but England is at too great a Distance to think of that at present.

    smallpox as a weapon of mass destruction evidence

    You remind me of your buddy Nalle who has in the past attempted to assert that the clandestine overthrow of democratically elected leaders in other sovereign nations was done with benign intentions. Birds of a feather always flock together.

  • Clavos

    There is one disputed incident in which British  soldiers in North America may have discussed intentionally infecting native people as part of a war effort. During Pontiac’s Rebellion in 1763, a number of Native Americans launched a widespread war against British soldiers and settlers in an attempt to drive the British out of the Great Lakes region In what is now western Pennsylvania, Native Americans (primarily Delawares) laid siege to Fort Pitt on June 22, 1763. Surrounded and isolated, William Trent, the commander of Fort Pitt gave representatives of the besieging Delawares two blankets and a handkerchief from the Pittsburgh smallpox hospital, “out of our regard to them” when the two Delaware men came to talk to him. There are also letters between two other British officers, Jeffrey Amherst and Henry Bouquet, explicitly advocating the idea of using using smallpox-infested blankets to kill Indians. There is, however, some dispute over whether Trent was acting with the intent expressed by Bouquet and Amherst.

    Whatever Trent’s intent, a number of recent scholars consider the evidence connecting his gift of blankets to the eventual smallpox outbreak to be very doubtful. These scholars believe that the disease was most likely spread by native warriors returning from attacks on infected white settlements. In other words, while some officers did want to use what would now be called biological warfare, smallpox was so widespread and so easy to catch that it would be difficult to separate the results of intentional action from the natural spread of the disease. Others attribute the smallpox outbreak to the common Indian practice of digging up recent European graves to retrieve the clothes of the those buried–some of whom had died from smallpox.

    ***

    Ward Churchill’s false claims about the 1837 Mandan outbreak

    The Investigative Committee of the Standing Committee on Research Misconduct at the University of Colorado at Boulder reviewed a claim by Ward Churchill, comparing to the cited source his claim that in 1837 the United States Army deliberately infected Mandan Indians by distributing blankets that had been exposed to smallpox, and reported “Professor Churchill therefore misrepresents what Thornton says.” Most other historians who have looked at the same event disagree with Churchill’s interpretation of the historical evidence, and believe no deliberate introduction of smallpox occurred at the time and place Churchill claimed it had.

    Source available here.

  • Doug Hunter

    Pablo, your racism is a bit sickening, but it’s to be expected from your quarter. I’m not going to stoop to your level and get into a pissing contest over what ‘whites’ have done good versus bad for the world. Individuals do things, skin colors don’t.

    Interesting to note that “well documented” consists of two PostScripts out of hundreds of years and hundreds of millions of people. Two postscripts (interesting they never bring it up in the body itself) from men actively at war with the natives.

  • pablo

    Doug,

    YAWN

  • Doug Hunter

    Glad to cheer you up, we are all here for our own entertainment.

  • Baronius

    “Individuals do things, skin colors don’t.”

    Wow. I need to program a macro that’ll type those six words with one keystroke.

  • Cqpinion

    This thin skinned White House is doing exactly what an impotent guy in denial about his condition would do, look for distractions. And Fox is the best distraction out there. It helps take people’s attention away from the colossal failure of this administration. Blame bush, blame fox, blame the chamber of commerce, blame insurance companies and CEOs.. blame everyone but Obama is the mantra. Its a winning strategy to be a one termer.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    #85, WELL SAID!

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “It helps take people’s attention away from the colossal failure of this administration.”

    way too early for that determination. plus, if the country is on the down swing, the people are part of the problem. Either put your money where your mouth is and this country or STFU. whiners from the sidelines are a dime a dozen, so stop boring everyone

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Thanks for the comment, El. How’s Snoopy? And how come your logo is faceless?

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Alright, let’s try this again.

    Clavos writes:

    “It is a heinous calumny to accuse Europeans of genocide in the New World. It didn’t happen.

    Not even the historians say it did….

    …Factual correction: the low end of the estimates for total indigenous population of the americas at the arrival of Europeans starts at 8.4 million, not 4 million.”

    Stop shamefully denying history. How many other posters are you going to have to do internet search rebuttals for in a vain attempt to “whitewash” the Indigenous Apocalypse that was Western Colonization?

    Just ONE historical account renders your claims impotent: POTOSI.

    ”Within a few years of the Spanish arrival thousands of indigenous workers were toiling in the mines. However, under the rule of their Spanish masters these native labourers also died by their thousands, subjected to brutal working conditions and poisonous mercury vapours used in the mining process.

    In the early 1600s the Spanish governors began importing African slaves to the mines to supplement the native workers. These so-called ‘human mules’ also perished due to Spain’s feverish desire for silver. A life expectancy of under one year was reaping a terrible human cost; mercury poisoning, mining accidents, exposure, and lung disease were all contributing factors.
    According to Eduardo Galeano (Open Veins of Latin America, Monthly Review Press, 1971) an estimated eight million African and indigenous workers died in the Potosi mines during Spain’s colonial reign.”

    Go ahead, Clavos.

    Go right on ahead and give me the “well-since-the-Conquistadors-didn’t-INTEND-to-kill-millions-of-non-whites-in-one-of-the-deadliest-slave-labor-camps-in-human-history-you-can’t-blame-them” argument. I have not only come to expect that from you, based on your answers so far, but I expect more than one or two of your conservative blog-mates to join you in support that point of view.

    That’s how history works in Glennbeckistan, right?

    –Cobra

  • Clavos

    Stop shamefully denying history.

    Riiiggghhhtt…

    How many other posters are you going to have to do internet search rebuttals for in a vain attempt to “whitewash” the Indigenous Apocalypse that was Western Colonization?

    I used YOUR linked source, Cobra. Didn’t have to search at all — you handed it to me.

    Interesting. The “genocide” has now become an “apocalypse?”

    Cobra, go find some liberal guilt-ridden sensitive guy willing to accept your guilt trip. I’m not buying it, and don’t really give a flip how many people were killed, who they were, or who killed them.

    People have killed each other since the dawn of humanity, they still do, and they always will; anybody who has ever fought in a war can tell you all about it.

    If you’re really pissed off about the “Indigenous Apocalypse,” go kill some white people, get even.

  • zingzing

    jesus, clavos. when the europeans got here, it was not pretty for the people who lived here then. not at all. admit it. it was a massacre.

    you can throw numbers around all day, but you’ll never win.

  • STM

    The movement of people, from place to place, country to country, and now continent to continent, has been going on since the dawn of time.

    There’s nothing unusual in human history about one group of people subjugating another.

    Not condoning the treatment of certain peoples or saying it’s right, though … just saying it’s been going on forever.

    What happened in North America, South America, Australia, etc, is no different to the movement and arrival, the battles, the takeovers, of our ancestors, and that also includes the movement of people in Africa and the Americas prior to European settlement.

    Britain is a great example: Invaded by the Romans, who subjugated the ancient Britons (who probably came from somewhere else had done the same to other inhabitants of the isles) then the Angles, Saxons and Jutes, then the Vikings, then the Normans, then it was the English subjugating the Picts and the Celts and so on and so forth.

    In each case, those who had been there earlier were pushed to the margins, either literally or figuratively.

    But after a while, everything settles down and spreads back out.

    The English language took 300 years after the Norman invasion to become the main language of England, this time with many French words added and it started its journey toward the language we know today.

    My own ancestry is a classic example: Celt, Scandinavian, Saxon, Anglo-German. Doc Dread, the Englishman on here now living in California, has some strong French ancestry. Possibly, I would have some too, although the Normans were Vikings who settled in Normandy and were very like the Danes who occupied (and then stayed in) most of northern England for many centuries. The Normans mixed with the French before they invaded England, and then began mixing and intermarrying with the Saxons and Danes.

    Now, in my case, that movement has pushed 13,000 miles away on the other side of the world.

    Each little bit of that different ethnic group represented in my background is an example of mass migration and the movement of people – accompanied as it was first by subjugation and then the mixing in, with time, of each of those ethnic groups.

    And that is where the gains might come, eventually, as new nations form, people mix again, and new groupings of people begin.

  • http://www.thecobraslair.com Cobra

    Clavos writes:

    “Cobra, go find some liberal guilt-ridden sensitive guy willing to accept your guilt trip. I’m not buying it, and don’t really give a flip how many people were killed, who they were, or who killed them.”

    Well, that spells it out quite clearly doesn’t it?

    If someone doesn’t “give a flip” about the killing of millions, or those responsible for the killings, then embracing an anti-minority, anti-liberal political agenda promoted by Fox Propaganda is child’s play.

    It all makes sense now.

    –Cobra

  • zingzing

    you two are equally moronic.

  • Clavos

    It all makes sense now.

    Yes, it does.

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