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What Is It With Morgan Reynolds?

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Many people are commenting on Morgan Reynolds’s comments that the WTC collapse was controlled demolition and not the planes flying into the towers. Let’s take a look at some facts…

Almost every engineering school in the country has either been looking into the collapse or using it as a case study. No college (not even Texas A&M who released this statement) has gone on record saying anything different about the collapse. This means either they are correct or the next generation of engineers who will be building our buildings aren’t qualified to put up woodsheds. I find it unlikely that we’ve universally trained a generations of idiots incapable of understanding gravity, at least not at the college level. K-12… well… let’s not go there.

Dr. Reynolds has a degree in economics. It’s simply not accurate to call him a liberal as he writes in support of concealed carry, privatization and other conservative or at least pro-capitalist issues for the Heartland Institute. He was or is also a member of the National Center for Policy Analysis, which isn’t exactly a Soros-Approved 527. In fact, he apparently once wrote an article for the National Review.

In order to have a controlled demolishing of a building, it requires a large effort that would be very hard to keep secret and certainly take very long to set up if it were to be kept secret. For instance, there would be no way to set it up in 8 months if it were Bush or someone who came to office with him. I know, however, if I saw people carrying boxes of dynamite in the building back when I was working in the Sears Tower, I would have started working from home.

Gag order or no gag order, I refuse to believe that the entire police and fire departments of New York would honor them and simply stay quiet about it. There has been no media organization that has received any “anonymous leaks.” Both of those organizations lost people on 9/11, and I know if I were a cop and some bureaucrat gave me a gag order like that I would arrest him. He’d be lucky if I got to him first. (Any cops want to back me up on that? Would you stomach someone telling you to shut up about your cop friends getting blown up by the man?)

He did work for the Department of Labor but I can’t find any real information on what he did. I’m not convinced he was necessarily appointed by Bush (but could be wrong). What I am more interested in is the terms of his departure from Labor.

This guy’s expertise is in the economics of crime and punishment that is clear. It’s doubtful that he’s got any experience in demolitions or civil engineering. Why would he say stuff like this? Maybe he was booted out of Labor on bad terms, maybe he wants attention (it worked for Ward Churchill), who knows? 9/11 conspiracies have become a cottage industry though. What I do know is that this scenario is highly unlikely and if it was an “inside job” it would have had to be started before Bush got into office.

Other bloggers writing on this: Vox Popoli, Daimnation, LGF, Hit and Run

From Ravings of John C. A. Bambenek

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About John Bambenek

John Bambenek is a political activist and computer security expert. He has his own company Bambenek Consulting in Champaign, IL that specializes in digital forensics and computer security investigations.
  • http://home.comcast.net/~chickyraptor/ted_hooters.jpg Dave

    The guy’s last name is pretty appropriate for the type of hat he should be wearing.

  • C. H. Boatright

    Morgan Reynold is not saying our government blew up these buildings. He is saying that this kind of explosive charge could only have been placed by a government.
    He is saying that 9-11 may not have just been Al Qaeda. Maybe we are back to Al Qaeda and Iraq.

    When he writes of an “inside job” he means that someone with access to the building placed the explosives.

    I think the story is not written clearly.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    That isn’t the implication I got when I read his comments and the article that the report is based on, I got the impression that he means the US government.

  • http://911truth.org tj

    Anyone with a basic understanding of the laws of physics can see that the 3 WTC buildings were demolished using explosives if they take the time to look. Despite the idiotic claims contained in the “expert reports” it is clear that jet fuel and/or office furnishings do not burn hot enough to melt steel. If you believe that the fires werehot enough to weaken the steel columns at the point of impact, how would you explain the absence of steel columns protruding from the rubble?
    What is the explanation for WTC7 coming down in free fall. No planes hit it, the fires were minimal at worst and the owner admitted to giving the order to “pull it”.
    Here is a news flash: Sometimes people lie either out of fear, greed or because they believe the end justifies the means.
    When you say “Almost every engineering school in the country” has been looking into it, what exactly is the basis for that statement and where can I read their analysis and conclusions?
    What the hell does his degree in economics and whether or nothe is a liberal have to do with skyscrapers being demolished?
    Since Neil Bush was on the board of the company in charge of the security for WTC (and Dulles) perhaps they had a more sophisticated method for palceing explosives in the building than “walking down the street with boxes of dynamite”.
    What “gag order” do you refer to? You sound like a conspiracy theorist…
    Quit apologizing for mass murderers and open your eyes.

  • aj

    A few months after 9/11 I ask a fire chief what he thought of the explanation of how the towers came down. He isn’t an expert, but he said he would rather be in a large wooden beamed building then a steel one during a fire. His reason was that steel was less predictable, it would suddenly bend and twist, and pull away from it’s supports, and then fall. This fits perfectly with what happened, as far as I can tell. If you look at how this building was made, you would have to be blind or stupid to think it couldn’t have happened like we were told. Once one floor pulled away and fell, the heat and weight of that floor would be to much for the next. Like a house of cards, down the whole thing came.

  • http://www.immafooker.com Brooke Lee

    And just like the Nazi sympathizers who believe there never really were any death camps; in about 40 years I imagine a group of folks will believe there never were any World Trade Towers.

    Yay!

  • http://gonzo-marx.blogspot.com gonzo marx

    having some past experience with explosive demolition, i can make no firm Opinion since i have not studied the available information…

    one thing to note is that a building does not usually fall straight down without help, the taller it is , the more propensity it has to tip to a side and fall…expert demolition people plan very carefully when dropping tall buildings so that they do fall into the desired “footprint”

    where i can see it being 9in the realm of possibility for one building to drop straight, anything can happen at random….it does defy imagination that both 100 plus storey structures would fall perfectly straight down

    i don’t pretend to Know any Answers here, and i doubt we, the public, ever will…

    as i said, i have no good Theory or even Hypothesis about the event…

    as for Sensenbrenner, it is still typical behaviour of the current Regime to stifle everything they can….

    Excelsior!

  • Bennett

    Yeah, who knows? Not me, but I do know that once a single floor “pancakes” the “mass in motion will tend to stay in motion” in the same direction unless something exerts enough force to alter the direction of movement.

    And we’re talking about a HUGE amount of mass above where the planes hit.

    Just having the single floor where the plane hit each tower “pancake” would set off this irreversable downward momentum.

    But hey, my mileage varies, and it’s just a thought.

  • http://gonzo-marx.blogspot.com gonzo marx

    Bennet, i understand what yer saying, it’s just the thought that ALL structural supports “melted” at the exact same time to make the upper areas fall straight down?

    the timing for that trick is one of the most difficult in demolition, precise timed detonations are required…not an easy thing , and for each area collapsing you increase the possibilities of angular momentum for a topple to a side

    that’s my only point here…no “theory” just an Observation based on personal knowledge of how these things work

    that being said, with a structure that big, all bets are off

    Excelsior!

  • John Galt

    I think http://www.911research.com gives the best analysis of what really happened.
    Please see here to see how a steel building should and normally behaves in a fire. It’s difficult to get a fire hot enough to weaken steel. The fact it happened three times in one day in New York is absurd. It’s not an engineering problem, it’s not a political problem, it’s not a social problem, IT IS A PSYCHOLOGICAL PROBLEM! How do you get Americans to confront the truth when it’s so awful?

  • Bennett

    Gonzo – Since this is the first I’ve heard of this (thanks John) I’m still trying to wrap my mind around it.

    The quote from the article John links to suggests that this is an “inside job” and that it would then be an “attack on the USA by a government”. He doen’t specify which government.

    The falling of the second tower, I saw that live, shouldn’t the slo-mo footage of the collapse show some evidence of charges going off?

    You and I have both seen large demolition jobs, and the charges going off (and the smoke/flash) show up pretty clearly.

    This is disturbing to the max.

  • Eric Olsen

    very sensible John, thanks. Any event this large, disastrous and with political ramifications is going to draw conspiracy theorists, it’s just inevitable.

    It happened the way we think it happened and Oswald shot Kennedy.

  • JR

    Given that the Twin Towers stood amongst many other heavily populated structures, it would have been a far greater disaster for them to topple over into other buildings. That being the case, I wonder if the buildings might not have been designed to collapse in a certain way. The “scandal” there would be that some of the supports might have been built to fail, increasing the likelihood of a disaster to avoid the possibility of a worse one.

  • John Galt

    JR–I forgive your trying to reach for an acceptably palatable explanation but the truth probably resembles something you’re currently incapable of confronting. Your government conspired with others to premeditatively murder nearly 3000 Americans and others to justify illegal and preemptive war in Iraq and Afghanistan. The seditiously silent media has kept quiet because they are controlled, cowed and manipulated. The President and his administration probably take directions from people whose identities we know nothing about. Hard to believe but the United States was overthrown and you didn’t even know about it. Justice might see Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, Powell and others standing against a brick wall for their Fort Leavenworth military firing squad executions. They will do everything in their power to deny the revelation of truth. They will do everything in their power to strengthen and reinforce your inability to confront. 911 was an inside job.

  • Bennett

    I kinda gotta go with Eric. Unless there is more to this than “It’s unlikely that the buildings fell that way on their own” I can’t buy the conspiracy.

    It would have been better if they toppled, from a terrorist standpoint. No need for precise demolition techniques. Why bother with that?

    “Oh, and let’s get the buildings to come straight down, just to confuse everybody…”

    John Galt – Sorry, no habla espanol. Have you a link to a site I can actually read?

  • Eric Olsen

    John Galt – you are a lunatic spouting unsuppotable monstrous hate-speech that might be dangerous to impressionable minds. Please fuck off hard.

  • John Galt

    Bennett–Why bother with that? Because the command center and homing beacon for the operation was probably in Building Seven that was later conveniently blown up after the players had departed.

    Nothing about this is going to be handed to you on a silver platter. I suggest you come up to speed on the many facets of the event by reading all of http://www.911research.com so that you can understand the implications of the photos at the Spanish website. You shouldn’t need to understand Spanish to understand what the photos mean.

    Eric–an inability to confront often leads to fearful expressions of profanity. You seem to have selected the blue pill. You can’t bring yourself to confront the evidence presented. The Greek philosopher Socrates drank hemlock as a penalty for his alleged crime of corrupting the youth of Athens. Truth is a hard nut to crack because those spouting it are very often sentenced to die.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    And here you thought gnosticism was a centuries old heresy…

  • Shark

    Who is John Galt?

    Sorry. I jus’ hadda.

    Actually, comment #14 sounds about as sane as anything around here, and I don’t understand Eric’s Olsen’s *reaction. I could buy it. Stranger things have happened.

    *Likely to get a lecture about civility from his wife.

    Ironically.

  • Karl Jackson

    It wasn’t Neil in charge of security, it was Marvin.
    Never in history has a steel framed highrise collapsed through fire. WTC7 did, and wasn’t hit by a plane. There is no evidence that it was seriously damaged by falling debris. But it collapsed as through a controlled demolition, with only small fires burning on two floors (those fires started in the afternoon. What started them?).
    The CEO of Controlled Demolitions Inc (who wrote the cleanup plan for the complex) reported pools of molten steel in the basements of WTC 1, 2 and 7. It remained hot for over a month. What melted that steel?
    But go ahead and make tinfoil hat wisecracks. It’s easier than doing the homework.

  • Shark

    BTW: re. Bambi-neck’s reference to a statement by Texas A & M University:

    Everything Texas A & M says is suspect.

    It’s an ENGINEERING school – fer chrissakes — and their students couldn’t construct a safe *bonfire using 300 lb. tinker toys.

    WE DON’T CARE WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY ABOUT ARCHITECHTURAL STRUCTURES, ‘kay??

    ‘kay.

    *12 dead, 27 injured.

    Now back to your regular programming.

  • The Duke

    Smoke ‘em if you got ‘em, cuz you all are on drugs. Good Gawd almighty…

    This dicussion invalidates any substantial gains by blog.critics in my book. Ya’ll fuggers are nutz!

  • Eric Olsen

    As I mentioned, the intensity of my reaction is based upon such hateful drivel being taken seriously by the weak minded and easily deluded.

  • http://gonzo-marx.blogspot.com gonzo marx

    damn, Shark beat me to the “who is John Galt” sub-ref

    on that note, to Sloop John B, WTF does gnosticism have to do with anything written in this Thread?

    the character of “John Galt” comes from the Objectivist book “Atlas Shrugged” and has NOTHING to do with gonosticism, which IS alive and well, christian gnosticism was being argued against by Bishop Iraneus as early as 180 AD, Valentinius was tossed out of Rome for gnostic “heresies” around 150 AD

    so i just don’t get your point..

    JR, there is no documentation or evidence that ANY large building (over 30 floors) is designed to fall in a certain way that i can discover, i’m not sure it’s possible, but i am no engineer. the closest i have found are the earthquake “proof” buildings in Japan, which can sway quite considerably..but no study has been done about collapsing..

    as for the rest..no way of knowing with the data available, but Bog forfend it was anything but what we believe it to have been

    Excelsior!

  • http://operation911.tk The Revolutionist

    Hmmm, then please tell me why exactly the office building in MADRID SPAIN burned for almost a full day, fire spreading to over 20 floors. now THATS a raging inferno…….BUT YET……IT DID NOT FALL. –>

    operation911

    That last link, how was that woman able to survive through heat that supposedly melted 3 foot thick concrete-reinforced steel beams and girders? hmmm?

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Shark, I think you should stick with the A&M bonfire deathcount as an alternative to Iraq war casualties. It’s way more entertaining.

    Dave

  • Eric Olsen

    here is the answer, now you can retire and take down your stupid website: shit happens that seems unlikely ALL THE TIME

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    >>Never in history has a steel framed highrise collapsed through fire. WTC7 did, and wasn’t hit by a plane. There is no evidence that it was seriously damaged by falling debris. But it collapsed as through a controlled demolition, with only small fires burning on two floors (those fires started in the afternoon. What started them?).< <

    Wasn't WTC7 damaged substantially by debris, caught on fire, and then intentionally demolished after it was evacuated in order to control the fire?

    >>The CEO of Controlled Demolitions Inc (who wrote the cleanup plan for the complex) reported pools of molten steel in the basements of WTC 1, 2 and 7. It remained hot for over a month. What melted that steel?<<

    Ok, here’s a question for you. If jet fuel can’t generate a fire hot enough to melt steel, then what can? And how could they get enough of any of the substances which CAN melt steel into the building and wrapped around the support pillars without anyone noticing it?

    The fact is that there’s nothing which can burn and melt steel which could have been gotten into place in the building without basically reconstructing the building to accomodate it.

    The one thing which can melt steel, which no one is considering here, is pressure and friction. Ever seen what happens when a steel bar bends? The bend point gets incredibly hot. With some kinds of steel the metal can even soften to the touch. There are also lots and lots of different kinds of steel, some of which can melt at temperatures as low as 800 degrees centigrade.

    Imagine the pressure those steel columns were under with the weight of all those collapsing floors pushing down on them. It’s like instant metal fatique, and the more that collapsed the higher the pressure would be on the sections below.

    Dave

  • Eric

    Morgan Reynolds came out last year as a 9/11 skeptic

    Clearly Mr Reynolds is indicting the Bush Administration as the guilty party. It’s no mysterty that WTC7 was destroyed by well-placed explosives since the lease-holder, Mr Larry Silverstein, said he made a decision to “pull it.”

    The anthrax attacks and the (pointless) war in Iraq are all part of the Bush Administration’s tactics to start a globe wide war. Sadly, most Americans will never see through it.

  • Eric

    Also, Paul Craig Roberts, former assistant Secretary of Treasury under Reagan, and author of the _Supply-Side Revolution_ also suspects that 9/11 was an “inside job” carried out by the Bush Administration. However, he’s been reluctant to say so.

  • Karl Jackson

    >>>Wasn’t WTC7 damaged substantially by debris, caught on fire, and then intentionally demolished after it was evacuated in order to control the fire?

    There is no photographic evidence that it was damaged substantially. It was the furthest of the buildings in the WTC Complex from the towers.
    In fact, the 9/11 (C)omission Report didn’t even pretend to know how it happened. Early reports that the diesel tanks for the generator systems in the basement caught fire were dropped when photographic evidence showed that the basement was not on fire.
    The fires broke out in the afternoon, and the building fell at 5:20PM.

    >>>”Ok, here’s a question for you. If jet fuel can’t generate a fire hot enough to melt steel, then what can?”

    Thermite, or the newer generation cutting charges used in controlled implosions to shear load bearing structural members.
    In the case of the Trade Center Towers, they were probably placed at multiple levels in the 7-story basement, eviscerating the central core structure, which pulled the building straight down through the center.
    This was the same thing that the truck bomber tried to do in the ’93 Trade Center bombing, but it was parked too far from the central columns.

    Yes, bending metal makes it hot, a fact easily observed when pulling old nails out of a board. Hot enough to reduce it to a liquid state?
    Interesting thought, but I’ve never heard of anything like that.

    And for Eric Olsen: Nothing hateful here, except your initial comment. How about answering some of the questions raised? Clue: “Duh, that’s nutz and you all must hate America” does not count as an answer. I think you can do better.

  • John Galt

    Eric–When I realized the government’s explanation about Arabs with box cutters overpowering four flight crews and making perfect untrained approaches into three structures was drivel and when I realized it was all done to express hatred toward Arabs in the form of illegally and preemptively killing more than 100,000 of them, I didn’t shout obscentities. Your behavior is contemptible and does not strenghthen your position.

    Dave Nalle–Steel can be weakened when force-fed oxygen flames are directed at it for prolonged periods of time. Your local muffler shop probably uses an oxy-acetylene torch to cut steel. Steel mills use forced air through purifed coal to melt steel in their refractory line crucibles. Nitrate based explosives get hot enough and are powerful enough to melt steel. Nuclear reactions could melt steel. Also, a new variety of aluminum-based metastable interstitial composite can easily melt steel.

    The troubling fact is that none of these types of materials were in that building and none were carried aboard the plane. Or were they? What we do know is that oxygen-starved kerosene fires were burning at no hotter than 350 degreess Celsius. 800 degrees Celsius is required to even begin weakening steel. NIST, the National Institute of Standards and Technology has not detected any sample from available rubble that indicates temperatures in excess of 250 degress Celsius.

    Confront the truth. 911 was an inside job.

  • Karl Jackson

    >>>”If you look at how this building was made, you would have to be blind or stupid to think it couldn’t have happened like we were told. Once one floor pulled away and fell, the heat and weight of that floor would be to much for the next. Like a house of cards, down the whole thing came.”

    Simple, believable, convincing, and completely unsupported by the facts.

    If one looks at how the towers were constructed, you’ll see that they utilized a “tube within a tube” structure. A massive central core, which housed the elevator shafts, stairwells, and utilities, consisting of 47 massive steel columns. A load bearing outer wall, also of steel. The floors were suspended between these with trusses, opening up a maximum amount of floor space.
    If the “pancake -collapse/truss-failure” theory held water, and those floors would have went slamming down onto each other like vinyl records down a spindle, there would have been several stories of shattered concrete floors atop the rubble, and a couple hundred feet of the core would have remained standing.
    But that’s not what happened, is it?
    Think about it.
    Everything was pulverised into dust.
    Practical experimement: drop a chunk of concrete 1,400 feet to the pavement, and see if it explodes into dust like a dirt clod.

  • Prism Knight

    Missile & remote control systems added to?small jets before 9-11; same parts found at Pentagon

    Two civilian defense contractor employees–told to remain silent–say?other workers quietly retro-fitted missile and remote control systems onto A-3 jets at Colorado public airport prior to September 11 when similar A-3 parts much smaller than a Boeing 757 were found at Pentagon

    Presidential candidate says scores of retired and active military and intelligence officials would testify?before?current grand jury probing government?involvement in 9/11 attacks

  • John Galt

    Prism please state your source or provide a link. Thank you.

  • hdhntr

    Bottom line?

    The towers collapsed in anywhere from 8-11 seconds, flat. They were built around a solid structural steel core.

    Absolute freefall in a complete vacuum, within even air resistence??

    9.2 seconds, flat.

    Shaking head at ANYONE’s attempt to stretch the bounds of credulity, and the push the outer limits of absurdity in order to attempt to make what is patently absurd conform with the officially twisted worldview, that after an hour, the fires all but out, the firefighters setting up a triage in the building – the buildings collapsed straight to the ground from top to bottom at about the rate of free fall in a vacuum for reasons other than controlled demolition?

    Take a safe or a grand piano and the north tower, and drop them at the same time, and all indication, and visual evidence shows, that they hit the ground at the same time, or if anything, the tower a fraction of a second later!!

    Now think about that, and then think about the construction of these buildings, designed to withstand hurricane force winds, and an actual plane strike of similar magnitude.

    http://www.serendipity.li/wot/wtc_ch2.htm

    http://data.greatbuildings.com/gbc/images/cid_wtc_mya_WTC_const.3.jpg

    Large Safe (or Grand Piano)
    North Tower
    Drop

    http://xenonpuppy.net/video%20archive/

    Steel structural core and controlled demolition.

    Proven. End of story.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    So Karl and John are contending that Thermite or the equivalent was smuggled into the building in large enough quantities to pack around the main pillars at multiple intervals to heat them to a total temperature high enough to cause a rapid melt-down. Perhaps the planes were just there to ignite the thermite?

    About the only way that much thermite or thermite equivalent could have gotten where it needed to be would be for it to have been done when the building was under construction. As demonstrated in the first bombing, just parking a truck near a couple of columns is nowhere near sufficient.

    What about the possibility that the giant elevator shaft acted as a forced-air furnace? That seems to make much more sense.

    Dave

  • hdhntr

    Here’s what he had to say on that issue. Sounds pretty rational. In fact, any other explanation as to why those towers fell the way they did is untenable if not utterly absurd!

    “There is special import in the fact of free-fall collapse (item one in the list immediately above), if only because everyone agrees that the towers fell at free-fall speed. This makes pancake collapse with one floor progressively falling onto the floor below an unattractive explanation. Progressive pancaking cannot happen at free-fall speed (“g” or 9.8 m/s2). Free-fall would require “pulling” or removing obstacles below before they could impede (slow) the acceleration of falling objects from above. Sequenced explosions, on the other hand, explain why the lower floors did not interfere with the progress of the falling objects above. The pancake theory fails this test.

    If we put the murder of 2,749 innocent victims momentarily aside…”

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2005/150605wtccollapse.htm

  • hdhntr

    Bush-Linked Company Handled Security for the WTC, Dulles and United
    by Margie Burns

    George W. Bush’s brother was on the board of directors of a company providing electronic security for the World Trade Center, Dulles International Airport and United Airlines, according to public records. The company was backed by an investment firm, the Kuwait-American Corp., also linked for years to the Bush family.

    The security company, formerly named Securacom and now named Stratesec, is in Sterling, Va.. Its CEO, Barry McDaniel, said the company had a “completion contract” to handle some of the security at the World Trade Center “up to the day the buildings fell down.”

    It also had a three-year contract to maintain electronic security systems at Dulles Airport, according to a Dulles contracting official. Securacom/Stratesec also handled some security for United Airlines in the 1990s, according to McDaniel, but it had been completed before his arriving on the board in 1998.

    McDaniel confirmed that the company has security contracts with the Department of Defense, including the U.S. Army, but did not detail the nature of the work, citing security concerns. It has an ongoing line with the General Services Administration – meaning that its bids for contracts are noncompetitive – and also did security work for the Los Alamos laboratory before 1998.

    Marvin P. Bush, the president’s youngest brother, was a director at Stratesec from 1993 to fiscal year 2000. But the White House has not publicly disclosed Bush connections in any of its responses to 9/11, nor has it mentioned that another Bush-linked business had done security work for the facilities attacked.

    Marvin Bush joined Securacom when it was capitalized by the Kuwait-American Corporation, a private investment firm in D.C. that was the security company’s major investor, sometimes holding a controlling interest. Marvin Bush has not responded to telephone calls and e-mails for comment.

    KuwAm has been linked to the Bush family financially since the Gulf War. One of its principals and a member of the Kuwaiti royal family, Mishal Yousef Saud al Sabah, served on the board of Stratesec.

    The managing director at KuwAm, Wirt D. Walker III, was also a principal at Stratesec, and Walker, Marvin Bush and al Sabah are listed in SEC filings as significant shareholders in both companies during that period.

    Marvin Bush’s last year on the board at Stratesec coincided with his first year on the board of HCC Insurance, formerly Houston Casualty Co., one of the insurance carriers for the WTC. He left the HCC board in November 2002.

    But none of these connections has been looked at during the extensive investigations since 9/11. McDaniel says principals and other personnel at Stratesec have not been questioned or debriefed by the FBI or other investigators. Walker declined to answer the same question regarding KuwAm, referring to the public record.

    Walker is also chairman and CEO of Aviation General, a Tulsa, Okla.-based aviation company with two subsidiaries. SEC filings also show al Sabah as a principal and shareholder in Aviation General, which was recently delisted by the Nasdaq. Stratesec was delisted by the American Stock Exchange in October 2002.

    The suite in which Marvin Bush was annually re-elected, according to public records, is located in the Watergate in space leased to the Saudi government. The company now holds shareholder meetings in space leased by the Kuwaiti government there. The White House has not responded to various requests for comment.

    Speaking of the Watergate, Riggs National Bank, where Saudi Princess Al-Faisal had her “Saudi money trail” bank account, has as one of its executives Jonathan Bush, an uncle of the president. The public has not learned whether Riggs – which services 95 percent of Washington’s foreign embassies – will be turning over records relating to Saudi finance.

    Meanwhile, Bush has nominated William H. Donaldson to head the Securities and Exchange Commission. Donaldson, a longtime Bush family friend, was a Yale classmate of Jonathan Bush.

    On the very day of the tragic space shuttle crash, the government appointed an independent investigative panel, and rightly so. Why didn’t it do the same on Sept. 12, 2001?

  • hdhntr

    Pre-9/11 World Trade Center Power-Down
    by Victor Thorn
    April 23

    Did the World Trade Center towers undergo a deliberate ?power-down? on the weekend prior to the 9-11 terrorist attacks? According to Scott Forbes, a senior database administrator for Fiduciary Trust, Inc. ? a high-net investment bank which was later acquired by Franklin Templeton ? this is precisely what took place.

    Forbes, who was hired by Fiduciary in 1999 and is now stationed at a U.K. branch office, was working on the weekend of September 8-9, 2001, and said that his company was given three weeks advance notice that New York?s Port Authority would take out power in the South Tower from the 48th floor up. The reason: the Port Authority was performing a cabling upgrade to increase the WTC?s computer bandwidth.

    Forbes stated that Fiduciary Trust was one of the WTC?s first occupants after it was erected, and that a ?power-down? had never been initiated prior to this occasion. He also stated that his company put forth a huge investment in time and resources to take down their computer systems due to the deliberate power outage. This process, Forbes recalled, began early Saturday morning (September 8th) and continued until mid-Sunday afternoon (September 9th) ? approximately 30 hours. As a result of having its electricity cut, the WTC?s security cameras were rendered inoperative, as were its I.D. systems, and elevators to the upper floors.

    Forbes did stress, though, that there was power to the WTC?s lower floors, and that there were plenty of engineers going in-and-out of the WTC who had free access throughout the building due to its security system being knocked out. In an e-mail to journalist John Kaminski, author of The Day America Died (Sisyphus Press) and America?s Autopsy Report (Dandelion Books), Forbes wrote: ?Without power there were no security cameras, no security locks on doors, and many, many ?engineers? coming in and out of the tower.?

    Forbes didn?t think much of these occurrences at the time, and said that he worked until Monday morning (September 10th) to get all the computer systems back online.

    Due to his IT-related duties on Saturday & Sunday, Forbes had Tuesday, September 11th off, and thus watched the World Trade Center towers collapse from his apartment. While doing so, he recalled, ?I was convinced immediately that something was happening related to the weekend work.?
    In addition, Forbes says there were other peculiarities revolving around this unreported event, including:

    1) Fiduciary employees trapped between the 90-97th floors of the South Tower told family members (via cell-phone calls) that they were hearing ?bomb-like explosions? throughout the towers.

    2) Video cameras positioned atop the World Trade Center which were used to feed daily images to local television stations were inexplicably inoperative that morning.

    3) A Fiduciary employee who was on one of the lower floors and escaped immediately after the first (North) tower was struck, reported that he was amazed by the large number of FBI agents that were already on the streets surrounding the WTC complex only minutes after the initial strike.

    4) Last but not least, Ann Tatlock, CEO of Fiduciary Trust and now a board member of Franklin Templeton, had just arrived at a conference hosted by Warren Buffet at the Offutt Air Force Base (home of the U.S. Strategic Command Headquarters in Omaha, Nebraska) when the 9-11 attacks took place.
    Coincidentally, later that day President George W. Bush flew into this very same base on Air Force One for ?security reasons.? Even more chilling are the Offutt AFB ties to the CIA?s MK ULTRA experiments, Project Monarch, the Franklin Cover-Up, and the diabolical practices of Michael Aquino. (Type any of these words into a search engine for more information.)

    In the end, Forbes says that even though these disclosures could jeopardize his current employment, he has stepped forward because, ?I have mailed this information to many people, including the 9/11 Commission, but no one seems to be registering these facts.?
    Obviously there are many unanswered questions to this story, and we will keep you updated as more information arrives…”

  • John Galt

    If you own the building, you can do just about anything you want to it under the guise of maintenance. After 5pm the buildings were virtually empty. Crews could pack it with hidden explosives relatively easily in the months preceding 911.

    Larry Silverstein, leaseholder of the WTC, slipped up in a PBS documentary, “America Rebuilds”, when he stated that he discussed with the NYFD “pulling” building seven and he confirms that they pulled it meaning destroyed it using controlled demolition techniques.

  • hdhntr

    But wait there’s more..

    Another Ignored 9/11 Clue: Bomb Sniffing Dogs Removed From WTC Days Before Attack

    Jon Rappoport | June 28 2004

    As you’ll see from the Newsday excerpt below, tight security at the Twin Towers in NYC was lightened in the days just before the 9/11 attacks.

    What makes the particular removal of bomb-sniffing dogs so important are statements from firemen that they heard bombs going off in the Towers on 9/11, as they were carrying out their rescue operation.

    Naturally, if people were planting bombs in the Towers, they would not have wanted those charges to be discovered by trained dogs prior to 9/11.

    This matter of the dogs and the statements of firemen about bombs were completely ignored by the 9/11 commission.

    Parallel: in the 1995 OKC bombing, there had to have been charges pre-planted on specific columns of the Murrah building, because no truck bomb of any size could have caused the profile of damage sustained by the building on April 19. Certain columns were taken down and certain columns survived intact. A few of the surviving columns were closer to the truck than other columns which went down. It’s likely that, on April 19, as the diversionary blast went off in the Ryder truck, the charges that had already been placed on the columns were set off by remote control from another location. Or the Ryder truck shock wave itself set off detonators embedded in the charges on the columns.

    Here is the Newsday excerpt:

    Heightened Security Alert Had Just Been Lifted
    By Curtis L. Taylor and Sean Gardiner
    STAFF WRITERS

    September 12, 2001

    The World Trade Center was destroyed just days after a heightened security alert was lifted at the landmark 110-story towers, security personnel said yesterday.

    Daria Coard, 37, a guard at Tower One, said the security detail had been working 12-hour shifts for the past two weeks because of numerous phone threats. But on Thursday, bomb-sniffing dogs were abruptly removed.

    “Today was the first day there was not the extra security,” Coard said. “We were protecting below. We had the ground covered. We didn’t figure they would do it with planes. There is no way anyone could have stopped that.”

    Security guard Hermina Jones said officials had recently taken steps to secure the towers against aerial attacks by installing bulletproof windows and fireproof doors in the 22nd-floor computer command center…

    End of Newsday excerpt.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    There is no way enough explosves were secretted into the WTC in a matter of days. Seriously.

    And gnosticism is perfectly relevant to this thread with all the proclamations of sooper sekret knowledge that only a few have and the rest of the world is stupid/insane/both.

    But thanks for keeping my post at the top guys.

  • Eric Olsen

    when one starts with a conclusion and works backward from there, one can “prove” virtually anything.

    Move along psychos

  • hdhntr

    I myself am not emplying by those articles that the whole thing was acomplished in a few days. Merely that the intensity of activity increased days prior, and very likely most of all during the very weekend prior.

    Certainly, building 7 too would have had to have been set up weeks and even months in advance. Thus, Silverstein’s admission of the CD of building 7 also proves prior knowledge and secret, yes secret complicity and conspiracy, which is nothing more than two or more people working together in secret for the purpose of committing a crime, in this case, the crime of the fricking CENTURY!!

    It was a ‘projection’ of shock and awe power, for a “New American Century”.

    Open your eyes man!

    Can you count down 9 seconds? Now, imagine a large safe racing the top of the north tower to the ground, and actually beating it there!

    Now take another look at this, please.

    http://data.greatbuildings.com/gbc/images/cid_wtc_mya_WTC_const.3.jpg

  • hdhntr

    You’d better include Gallileo and Isaac Newton among us, and, prepare to argue their “theories” about free falling bodies then..

  • Eric Olsen

    1) stop leaving fucking URLs – make them actual links
    2) Roswell – how did that one turn out?

    and on and on and on

  • The Brain

    Idle minds….. kill your televisions… it’s destroying your brains.

    For years the electrical utility companies have led the public to
    believe they were in business to supply electricity to the
    consumer, a service for which they charge a substantial rate. The
    recent accidental acquisition of secret records from a well known
    power company has led to a massive research campaign which
    positively explodes several myths and exposes the massive hoax
    which has been perpitrated upon the public by the power companies.

    The most common hoax promoted the false concept that light bulbs
    emitted light; in actuality, these ‘light’ bulbs actually absorb
    DARK which is then transported back to the power generation
    stations via wire networks. A more descriptive name has now been
    coined; the new scientific name for the device is DARKSUCKER.

    This newsletter introduces a brief synopsis of the darksucker
    theory, which proves the existence of dark and establishes the
    fact that dark has great mass, and further, that dark particle
    (the anti-photon) is the fastest known particle in the universe.
    Apparently, even the celebrated Dr. Albert Einstein did not
    suspect the truth.. that just as COLD is the absence of HEAT,
    LIGHT is actually the ABSENCE of DARK… scientists have now
    proven that light does not really exist!

    The basis of the darksucker theory is that electric light bulbs
    suck dark. Take for example, the darksuckers in the room where
    you are right now. There is much less dark right next to the
    darksuckers than there is elsewhere, demonstrating their limited
    range. The larger the darksucker, the greater its capacity to
    suck dark. Darksuckers in a parking lot or on a football field
    have a much greater capacity than the ones in used in the home,
    for example.

    It may come as a surprise to learn that darksuckers also operate
    on a celestial scale; witness the Sun. Our Sun makes use of dense
    dark, sucking it in from all the planets and intervening dark
    space. Naturally, the Sun is better able to suck dark from the
    planets which are situated closer to it, thus explaining why those
    planets appear brighter than do those which are far distant from
    the Sun.

    Occassionally, the Sun actually oversucks; under those
    conditions, dark spots appear on the surface of the Sun.
    Scientists have long studied these ‘sunspots’ and are only
    recently beginning to realize that the dark spots represent leaks
    of high pressure dark because the Sun has oversucked dark to such
    an extent that some dark actually leaks back into space. This
    leakage of high pressure dark frequently causes problems with
    radio communications here on Earth due to collisions between the
    dark particles as they stream out into space at high velocity via
    the black ‘holes’ in the surface of the Sun.

    As with all manmade devices, darksuckers have a finite lifetime
    caused by the fact that they are not 100% efficient at
    transmitting collected dark back to the power company via the
    wires from your home, causing dark to build up slowly within the
    device. Once they are full of accumulated dark, they can no
    longer suck. This condition can be observed by looking for the
    black spot on a full darksucker when it has reached maximum
    capacity of untransmitted dark… you have surely noticed that
    dark completely surrounds a full darksucker because it no longer
    has the capacity to suck any dark at all.

    A candle is a primitive darksucker. A new candle has a white
    wick. You will notice that after the first use the wick turns
    black, representing all the dark which has been sucked into it.
    If you hold a pencil next to the wick of an operating candle, the
    tip will turn black because it got in the way of the dark flowing
    into the candle. It is of no use to plug a candle into an
    electrical outlet; it can only collect dark.. it has no
    transmission capabilities. Unfortunately, these primitive
    darksuckers have a very limited range and are hazardous to operate
    because of the intense heat produced.

    There are also portable darksuckers called flashlights. The bulbs
    in these devices collect dark which is passed to a dark storage
    unit called a battery. When the dark storage unit is full, it
    must be either emptied (a process called ‘recharging’) or replaced
    before the portable darksucker can continue to operate. If you
    break open a battery, you will find dense black dark inside,
    evidence that it is actually a compact dark storage unit.

  • hdhntr

    How do you make them links?

    Roswell! Please. C’mon. At least take the time to read and examine what I fucking posted, before attempting to bring this into the realm of UFO’s.

    Saying no, simply because you cannot accept it by implication, is no argument I hope you know.. Is it motive? Prior conduct? If so I would refer you to Northwoods, and to PNAC (Project for a New American Century) for that matter.

    On what basis are you saying that what I’ve posted is in the realm of “psycho” and of Roswelleanism? Because the government or a faction within it, including Dick Cheney, would not DO such a thing?

    Are you aware of the 911 War Games Operations under way that day and who was responsible for those, and what specifically, one or more of them involved?

  • hdhntr

    Way to go Brain. More like an enclosed tin can which only recieves what it has been told by the mass media channels. Nice argument on ya there!

    Brain. How ironic!

  • Eric Olsen

    I am aware of many things including the fact that there are far too many deranged obsessives who have nothing better to do than to cloud their own minds and attempting to cloud the minds of others. This behavior takes on the characteristics of a cult.

    And for links: type HTML in any search engine and there it will be

  • Eric Olsen

    “darksucker” – that is classic

    Shark, are you still hanging with these guys?

  • hdhntr

    Yes of course, that’s it. I am clouded and am obsessed with clouding other people’s minds, for no other reason than because I am clouded.

    Fuckoff. That’s rediculous. This is serious business. Most people know the official story is patently false, or at the very least seriously flawed.

    Well, take the free fall collapse of the twin towers and building 7, for starters.

    You say one thing.

    I am saying something else.

    Which – is the most congruent with reality as it really is.

    8-10 seconds my friend, from top, to bottom they fell, for no reason, and the reason that has been fed to you makes no sense – not in terms of physical reality.

    So you revert to name calling, and what do they call it – ad hominen attacks.

    Who’s the fool. Argue your case for the official story, against what I’ve posted.

    So more than simply point the finger and shout names. Please! Rediculous.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    So, let’s get down to the meat of the matter. It was the Jews who bombed the WTC, right guys?

    Dave

  • john galt

    hdhntr–It’s difficult for nonengineers or scientists to get their minds around the physics of 911. 911 was an excellent psychological operation. I did not consider alternative explanations for more than a year after the event. I hadn’t even heard about Building Seven. Just after September 11, 2001 I saw a Diane Sawyer interview with the classmates of Zoe Falkenberg who died on flight 77 that allegedly crashed into the Pentagon and I remember mentioning it to my brother that it seemed rehearsed. That children of that age would never be so composed and well spoken in their feelings. It definitely seemed rehearsed. It probably was and I’m not even sure those were Zoe’s classmates or whether a Zoe actually really ever existed.

    I think the government admitted guilt when it coordinated the illegal removal and destruction of crime scene evidence. If that rubble were in a warehouse somewhere, materials scientists and structural engineers would be able, with great accuracy, to analyze the mechanisms of failure. It’s obvious why the government ordered the evidence destroyed.

    I think the second admission of guilt was when the 911 Commission didn’t summon Larry Silverstein, WTC leaseholder, for interogation. Let’s pretend you were appointed to be member of the 911 commission sworn to determine the TRUTH regarding 911. After learning that the controller of the property admitted that one of the buildings was blown up by NYFD, wouldn’t you interview Larry? The 911 Commission didn’t. Need I say more?

    Hdhntr–you and I have the strength, education and courage to see the truth. Others don’t. Please don’t let them get under your skin. You have the strength that comes from knowing. They are weakened because they rely on a false belief imposed on them by those that committed the crime. Also, there are agents of the fascists spreading doubt, ridiculing truth, reinforcing the government line. Do not underestimate their power.

    What do you think should be the next action, if any action, that resolved citizens can perform that would force independent but complementary investigations of 911 by investigators appointed by the individual 50 State Legislatures?

  • hdhntr

    Mossad ‘artists’, CIA specialists…military – most certainly authorized by Cheney who, months prior was placed, by Bush, in charge of various War Games Operations under way that very day, one of which involved, get this – simulated hijacked aircraft being flown as planes as fuel-air bomb missiles into major Landmark buildings, and Bob Dole’s ex chief of Staff confirms this also, as to a whole host of other public record sources.

    The whole thing is pretty damn sinister. A ‘dark sucker’.

  • HaLLuCiN0

    “So, let’s get down to the meat of the matter. It was the Jews who bombed the WTC, right guys?”

    Thanks Dave for exposing yourself as enabling shill.

  • hdhntr

    Thank you John. At least someone here is being rational about this issue.

    Here is precisely what would need to occur.

    1) A not-for-profit organization needs to be formed in New York City, with numerous victim’s family members on the board. If there is one organizing dynamic that is more powerful than the states capacity to dupe its citizenry into waging wars of aggression, unjust and unjustified wars I might add – it is enlightened people of great conviction and extreme courage operating and collaborating together in a spirit of mutual harmony to realize a definite purpose. It could be called 911 Victims Families For Truth, or simply The 911 Truth Movement, or some such thing.

    2) Money. Alot of it, needs to be raised and, with all the evidence that’s out there in hand, showing, make that proving, government complicity in 911 at the highest levels, I am confident that there are many many wealthy and influential true patriots who could be ‘tapped’ for any and all needed funds, without corrupting this ‘system’ with any sort of left/right political agenda.

    3) Supporters: A growing central data base of supporters needs to be gathered around and built up around the cause, with email and snail mail addresses. Engineers, Policemen, Firefighters, Judges, Lawyers, Academics, Scientists, Ex-Bush Admin Officials, etc. and of course, regular people like you and me. Then, once a certain critical mass threshold level of people working together in a true mastermind alliance is reached, that’s when a New York City 911 Grand Jury needs to be formed, and whistleblowers en mass encouraged to come forth to get on the record. Their protection would reside in their numbers, and the high profile such a proceeding would have, who’s sole objective would be nothing other than to discover the truth about 911. A Zogby poll shows that 50% of New Yorkers believe that 911 was, at the very least, a LIHOP (let it happen on purpose).

    Such an organization, and Grand Jury proceeding ought to take place relatively close to ground zero.

    And it would accumulate such a groundswell of support that there would be no keeping it out of the mass media channels.

    Holes in the 911 Omission Report would also serve as a central pillar of the investigation.

    Something like that needs to happen, and the sooner the better, before anything else happens.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Aww come on Hallu, I’m just trying to give ‘em a helping hand.

    Dave

  • John Galt

    Didn’t 911truth.org already try to present a petition to the New York State Attorney General Spitzer? I think he turned down the request so he could address steroids abuse instead.

    I contributed to 911truth.org but I’m slightly suspicious that they’re CIA. Ever since I learned NORML was DEA, I’ve suspected the government was posing as the opposition.

  • hdhntr

    Nothing substantive has yet formed, because they keep throwing up sinkholes like Spitzer to pin our hopes on.

    All that is required is the will and for someone or some small group to make a start. That’s what I think.

    There are like ALOT of people with knowledge who only need to know how to safely come forth with what they know.

    To date, the truth movement has merely been concerned with the movement of the truth about 911. It needs to get organized, and anyone could start that process in earnest. Just be careful not to get infiltrated by a-hole shills. Even regular people, smart and educated people are simply desperate to prevent this knowledge from coming out into the open, it is such an assault on their comfy cozy worldview I guess.

    Here’s a link of some interest I believe. Sorry, I don’t know how to make it a an clickable link.

    http://www.tomflocco.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=110&mode=&order=0&thold=0

  • NJT

    “when one starts with a conclusion and works backward from there, one can “prove” virtually anything.”

    Exactly!! – start with the conclusion that the collapse was caused by the planes, and then it can be “proved.”

    But an objective look at the facts, and the questions (very disturbing questions) remain.

    I am an engineer with a degree in civil engineering. I worked for the state of new york in structural steel quality assurance for many years. On 9-11 live TV I recall a demolition “expert” stating that there must have been charges placed in the building. I haven’t read any theories yet that convince me otherwise.

    The pancaking theory – where was the structural steel spindle? How was this steel simply crushed, by the weight of a building that it supported for decades?

    I’m sorry Eric Olsen but you should take a deeper look at some of the existing testimony before writing this off as psycho talk.

    For example, the fire chiefs present did not expect the buildings to collapse, right up to the last moment. Yet Mayor Giuliani stated in a TV interview that he received a 20 minute warning that the buildings were about to collapse, and so he moved to a safer location. Who warned him and how could they possibly have known the building was about to collapse?

    If you keep your mind closed and consider to insist we’re “psychos” you will never get at the truth. Good luck to you and thanks for the forum.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    NORML is DEA? That’ll be harsh news to all the NORML activists I know.

    Dave

  • hdhntr

    “There a principal which is a bar against all information, and proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance.
    That principal is contempt, prior to investigation.”
    ~ Herbert Spencer

  • John Galt

    To add a link… you will use the opening tag and closing tag. Whatever appears between these two tags will become underlined and colored, and if you click on the underlined text it will send the browser to the location within the quotes.

    Example of a link…

    Visit Dave’s Site!

    Visit Dave’s Site!

  • hdhntr

    Kevin Ryan – Former Underwriters Laboratory Inspector for WTC Speaks out on 911 Once Again


    Kevin Ryan – A Personal Decision

    By Kevin Ryan
    June 9th 2005

    Have you ever found yourself caught between several hundred million people and their most cherished lies? After writing a letter to a government scientist, pleading with him to clarify a report of his work, I found myself in just that situation. The letter was circulated on the internet and for a brief time I became a reluctant celebrity. Of course I stand behind what I wrote, although it was originally intended as a personal message, not an open letter. Since many have asked for clarification, here is my message to all.

    [For background to Kevin Ryan’s personal story see:
    UQ Wire: Underwriter Speaks Out On WTC Study
    UQ Wire: 9/11 Whistleblower Kevin Ryan Fired – UQ Wire Editor.

    To me, the report in question represents a decision point, not just for the US, but for humanity as a whole. We?re at a point where we must decide if we will live consciously, or literally give up our entire reality for a thin veneer of lies. In the US these lies include cheap propaganda that passes for journalism, police-state measures that promise security, and mountains of debt that paint a picture of wealth. Additionally we?ve adopted many implicit self-deceptions, like the idea that we?ll always enjoy a limitless share of the world?s resources, no matter where these are located or who might disagree.

    All people lie to themselves. It?s one of the most important things we have yet to accept about our own nature. We lie to ourselves to justify our past actions, to protect our self-image, and to promote ourselves relative to others. This lying is at the root of many of our problems (e.g. nationalism and racism). Until we see this, and strive to understand if not control it, the resulting problems will continue unchecked and the outcome will be certain. Any organism or society that makes self-deception its modus operandi will make many bad, and ultimately fatal, decisions. The day will come when we are collectively fooling ourselves in such a way that we essentially trade everything we have for what?s behind our fantasy curtain. It appears that day is near.

    The official conspiracy theory of 9/11 is a key part of our current self-deception. More importantly, this story may be our last chance to see just how critical our situation is so that we can all stop, and begin working together to solve the real problems we face. These problems, for the US and the world as a whole, amount to a growing storm of factors including environmental changes, resource depletion, and growth in resource usage.[1,2] Undoubtedly the secret Energy Taskforce report of May 2001 would verify this, and help us to understand that our government is responding to some of these threats with a carefully laid out plan. This plan assumes that people cannot rise above their own natural, ego-based self-deception, and therefore few of us will survive the coming storm. In essence, they?re betting against us.

    Anyone who honestly looks at the evidence has difficulty finding anything in the official story of 9/11 that is believable. It?s not just one or two strange twists or holes in the story, the whole thing is bogus from start to end.[3] In my previous job I was in a position to question one part, the collapse of three tall buildings due to fire. But this isn?t really a chemistry or engineering problem, and may be best approached initially through statistics.

    The three WTC buildings in question weren?t all designed the same way and weren?t all hit by airplanes. The only thing they seemed to have in common were relatively small and manageable fires, as indicated by the work of firefighters right up to the moment of collapse. From the government?s report we know that only a small percentage of the supporting columns in each of the first two buildings were severed, and that the jet fuel burned off in just a few minutes.

    To follow the latest ?leading hypothesis?, what are the odds that all the fireproofing fell off in just the right places, even far from the point of impact? Without much test data, let?s say it?s one in a thousand. And what are the odds that the office furnishings converged to supply highly directed and (somehow) forced-oxygen fires at very precise points on the remaining columns? Is it another one in a thousand? What is the chance that those points would then all soften in unison, and give way perfectly, so that the highly dubious ?progressive global collapse? theory could be born? I wouldn?t even care to guess. But finally, with well over a hundred fires in tall buildings through history, what are the chances that the first, second and third incidents of fire-induced collapse would all occur on the same day? Let?s say it?s one in a million. Considering just these few points we?re looking at a one in a trillion chance, using generous estimates and not really considering the third building (no plane, no jet fuel, different construction).

    How convenient that our miraculous result, combined with several other trains of similarly unlikely events, gives us reason to invade the few most strategically important lands for the production of oil and natural gas. As I said, this is not about chemistry or engineering. Our continued dependence on this highly improbable story means that we have a desperate need to believe it. It is, in fact, a psychology problem.

    Solving the problem is a personal challenge, and involves at least three-steps. First, we have to admit we were wrong, and that we were fooled. This is not easy for most people, but congratulations to the neo-cons for noticing that their political opponents seem to be least able to admit they were wrong on any significant issue. Secondly, we have to see that terrorism is actually much worse than we feared because the terrorists are in charge. Such a pause on a national scale would be dramatic to say the least. If we get to the third step we begin to realize the scope of change necessary to move forward in a conscious manner. Obviously the US government must be substantially changed and/or forgiven. New cooperative, multinational agreements would need to be implemented immediately.[4]

    If you make it through step one and care enough about people to work for step three, you may face ridicule and isolation. You may lose your income and some friends, but if we continue down the same path there?s a real chance you?re going to lose those anyway. On the upside you may be able to hold on to some sense of integrity. The only thing you can be certain of is that we?re all in this together. No matter how you voted, what credentials or positions you hold, or what faith you have in people, you will face the consequences of our collective self-deceptions. Now is the time for each of us to decide between a stormy reality and what?s behind the fantasy curtain.

    Of note is the fact that he was summarily fired for expressing anything contrary to the official theory of a pancake collapse. He just couldn’t go along with it.

  • Karl Jackson

    >>”when one starts with a conclusion and works backward from there, one can “prove” virtually anything.

    Move along psychos”

    Who’s doing that, Eric?
    WHO is starting with a conclusion?
    Start with the evidence, and work forward. Oh wait, you’re not familiar with any of it. That probably accounts for the derision in your voice. It’s okay, go back to your FOX news.
    Yeah, Building 7 fell because bin Laden “hates our freedom”. 19 Arabs, 7 of which are still alive and well, ducked past surveillance cameras stayed off the passenger mannifestos to comandeer a jetliner so suddenly that neither the pilot or co-pilot could get off so much as a yelp to the tower. Not once, but four times. They then piloted these things into those buildings, executing a precise spiral to strike at ground level, in the case of Hani Hanjour at the Pentagon, despite the fact that he could barely fly a Cessna.
    Why did they shut off the transponders, Eric?
    And how did they find these freakin buildings from cruising altitude? Did they navigate with maps and a Silva compass?
    Did you know that Mohamed Atta was a coke-fiend and a drunken party boy who liked strip joints? Sounds like a real fundie. “This party’s for Allah!”
    Yeah, and they tied him to it on account of his rental car, conveniently loaded with a Koran (he left those in strip joints, too), flight manuals in Arabic, and all sorts of other goodies.
    The problem is that he’d driven to Portland, Maine the night before, and FLEW IN to Boston in the morning. So how was his car parked at Logan, Eric?
    Who’s sounding like the whacked out conspiracy nut now?

    Seriously, educate yourself.
    And turn off the FOX News.

  • NJT

    Giuliani got the warning but the firefighters didn’t.

    Maintenance workers saw evidence of apparent bombings in the WTC basement prior to the collapse.

    But just keep moving along, psychos, nothing to see here. Don’t bother looking any deeper and get your “tin foil hat” quips at the ready. Because I’m sure you are all so smart, you don’t need to understand or even read the evidence to jump to the conclusion that it’s all a cult driven hoax. Our gov’t would never do anything like this, right?

  • John Galt

    Wouldn’t you do it? If you were head of the DEA with a virtually unlimited budget, wouldn’t you spend the paltry amount required to infiltrate and control the voice of the opposition without destroying it to ensure another voice of opposition didn’t erupt somewhere? That way you could pose as the opposition and control the amount of dissent delivered by it so as never to threaten your power. That’s why NORML has been in existence for some thirty years, collecting donations, without accomplishing a single significant thing.

    The government does the same thing in other areas. 911 truth groups in particular. There are a lot of red herrings being thrown out there that are used to discredit legitimate 911 anomalies that point to government participation.

  • hdhntr

    Giuliani got the warning.

    OMG! I always thought that was just a rumour. I couldn’t find it anywhere. Now I’ve heard it with my own ears. He was warned ten minutes BEFORE the building collapsed! Fuck that’s a pissoff!

    “…sacrificed, on the alter of freedom.”
    ~ Rudolph Giuliani,
    Ground Zero Ceremony
    September 11th, 2004

  • hdhntr

    I guess the Jewish elite needed their own new, 3000 unit version or something…

    Let’s just remember the people who jumped, and those heros who were needlessly crushed while doing their jobs, all so that a couple 100 more 1000 could be slaughter in the name of “freedom” (oil, power, wealth, unipolar global hegemony).

    Where do YOU stand, relative to this information.

    First things first, you might want to consider looking into it, for the love of Pete!

  • John Galt

    This article describes the official Texas A&M response from the school’s president.
    Texas A&M response

    Care to guess who the President of Texas A&M is and what his job used to be?

    Give up?

    Robert M. Gates, Director of the CIA

  • hdhntr

    Just a final comment before this “nutcase” signs off.

    Giuliani did in fact say just that “sacrificed, on the alter of freedom” in his last 911 Ceremony speech, but I’m not sure where it was to be precise, and I don’t have the transcript, but I heard him and watched him say it. You’ve got to trust me on this one.

    Otherwise, I suggest some investigation, without contempt prior to investigation, and take a close look at all the information in a variety of different forms, including what’s in the public record, as well as all the photographic and videographic evidence recorded first hand in real time when it happened. There’s so much that was on TV that day and was never again seen since, though it is getting preserved on the net and in various 911 documentaries.

    Look and read and think, and then and only then draw your own conclusions.

    All the best,

    HH

  • R. Johnson

    RE: Comment #67 You can’t be serious.
    That link to prisonplanet.com has fewer
    verifiable sources than the Weekly World
    News does. All it has is sensationalist
    innuendo and hare brained theories by
    unnamed and unknown sources. The tape of
    Guiliani(if it’s actually him)seems to
    be tampered with,if it’s not just some
    outright fraud that is. It is a highly
    entertaining site and all but I prefer
    The Onion as it at least has some small
    degree of underlying truth to it before
    they expound and expand on their subject
    matter.

  • hdhntr

    “The American people know what they saw with their own eyes on September 11, 2001″

    States Robert M. Gates, Ex Director of the CIA

    No, they don’t. But most of it was preserved, the first hand, when it happened, recorded in real time photographic and videographic record of events.

    Two things are of interest, or ought to be, for every American patriot and for the whole world. One, the time it took for those building to collapse from top, to bottom, and Two, what happens and what you see when you slow down the videos of the south tower plane strike, and take a close look at that event, from a whole variety of angles and video and still camera lenses.

    The American people THINK they know what they saw with their own eyes, but did they really?

    I think they should all take another look, just to be sure that they know what they think they saw the day it happened.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    LOL, prisonplanet.com is an Alex Jones website. He’s the king of insane and unsubstantiated conspiracy theories. Check out his main site at infowars.com for some real, broadband lunacy.

    Dave

  • Karl Jackson

    >>>”He’s the king of insane and unsubstantiated conspiracy theories.”

    So shoot the messenger.
    He actually does an excellent job of substantiating what he says. As opposed to… I dunno, pigeonholing valid questions and issues as “conspiracy theory” to avoid having to look at or answer them?
    Seriously, there more than enough valid issues and questions to justify, no, necessitate a hard investigation into the events of that day, and by a truly independant group of engineers, pilots and criminal investigators. Not a whitewash comission led by an oilman.

  • Chance Artanis

    I’m very interested by what i’ve read here. However, it seems as though the ardent defenders of the accepted story of 9/11 have, instead of arguing logical points and deductions, turned to wild accusations of “conspiracy theories” and other slander. What have you to say in defense of the accepted theory? Or to disprove this “conspiracy” theory? I would like to hear it. Thanks.

  • http://warmonger.mu.nu Jeremy

    You guys are ALL a bunch of deranged lunatics. I’m sure I’m going to get shouted down for this but did anyone actually look into the how and why the towers were designed the way they were? No? Didn’t think so. Here’s a lesson.

    1. The towers were built to withstand the direct hit of a Boeing 747 with moderate fuel. The planes that crashed were 757’s with full fuel supplies.

    2. The external structure was built as a ridgid steel frame with an internal core. This frame would withstand the heat and force of the 757 plane attack.

    3. The individual floors were “floating” floors that were anchored to the ridgid steel frame of the towers. These could withstand the force of a 747 but not anything larger. They designed the entire capacital structure around a plane hit by a 747.

    4. Why a floating floor? something of that size is bound to be effected by swaying in the wind. If you’ve ever been to the top you understand this. Solid floors would have cracked and need to be replaced.

    5. since we have a heat over the structural capacity contained within a ridgid steel frame the heat does not dissipate but insensify, causing the first floor to completely combust and make things even hotter on the inside, as well as destroying the supports.

    6. The Collapse of the floating supports creates an added friction to the next floor down and the overall mass causes the supports of the already heated next floor to collapse as well.

    7. This whole time the external structure has been building heat and close to the heat required for a class delta (Metal) fire, aka molten, flaming metal. Since the external supports are long beams running the length of the building they are already heating the lower and upper floors and weakening the floating supports for them as well.

    8. The dominoe effect happens due to the reason stated above. The internal floors collapse, one by one. This increased heat finally reaches the heat required to turn the external structure into a class delta fire. The external structure begins to melt and combust.

    9. Since the internal floors are already falling in an enclosed space it creates a vacuume for the newly liquifying external metal. It is the path of least resistance. The building collapses in on itself from top to bottom.

    Does this help with explaining why the building went straight down? The internal class alpha fire sucked the external class delta fire into itself.

    If you completely disagree with me I understand. There are those that just refuse to believe the truth because it is just too devastating…to your theories that Bush is evil.

    Have a nice day guys!

  • Karl Jackson

    >>>”1. The towers were built to withstand the direct hit of a Boeing 747 with moderate fuel. The planes that crashed were 757’s with full fuel supplies.”

    I only got that far.

    They were built to withstand the crash of a 707 (the largest passenger jet of the day). The planes that crashed into the towers were both 767s, which are hardly “jumbo jets”.

    >>>”3. The individual floors were “floating” floors that were anchored to the ridgid steel frame of the towers. These could withstand the force of a 747 but not anything larger.”

    Larger? Like what? A 767 is much smaller than a 747. It’s actually closer to a 707 in size. The bigger the number doesn’t mean the bigger the jet.

    >>>”The external structure begins to melt and combust.”

    Sorry, that’s just ridiculous.

    >>>”There are those that just refuse to believe the truth because it is just too devastating…to your theories that Bush is evil.”

    No, there are some who actually consider the facts, after taking the time to find out what they are. Looking at your response, I’d say you have some homework to do. Not because I disagree with your conclusion, but because your points are riddled with the most basic factual errors.
    And what does ones personal opinion of President Bush have to do with any of this?
    Right, because you’re “either with us or you’re with the terrorists”.

    I thank you all for the discussion.

    Good night.

  • http://warmonger.mu.nu Jeremy

    Hay, you asked for an explanation and you make excuses.

    ..and the conspiracy goes to point the finger at Bush. Don’t switch at the last moment.

    707, 747, 757, whatever.

    combustion. Do you even comprehend what a class Delta fire is? If you’ve been through your b acis damage control on a big grey ship you would understand the effects of a burning jet on a carrier’s runway. If you don’t dump it off the side it burns through the ship…all the way through. Look into the Forrestall and you’ll understand a bit more.

  • Karl Jackson

    I didn’t make excuses, I pointed out that your “facts” were mostly wildly inaccurate.
    As far as the USS Forrestall, this page seems to claim that most of the damage was from exploding ordnance, not burning JP5. Do you agree with that?

    As far as the Twin Towers go, in the attack on the South Tower, most of the jet fuel combusted outside the building, in that huge fireball that we all saw on television. It was almost a near miss (catching the corner of the tower), as opposed to the North Tower strike, which was almost a direct hit.
    And yet the South Tower collapsed first.
    Why?

    And what do you mean by: “the conspiracy goes to point the finger at Bush”?
    He’s an idiot and a liability, and I personally question how much he knew. He was in Florida; Dick Cheney was effectively in charge. Maybe he and Rumsfeld and Rove sent Bush down there so he couldn’t screw things up, eh?

    Again, good night.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com/ andy marsh

    so what are we saying here? That the WTC was just a parking lot for 757’s and right after the arabs parked their two jets the govt decided they weren’t paying the proper fee?

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com/ andy marsh

    alright..I confess! I did it…from my living room in AZ! morons!

  • Eric Olsen

    Sorry I got so testy.

    In all seriousness, I can appreciate how much time and effort you Don Quixotes have invested in this crusade, but why don’t you do yourselves and the world a favor and turn that energy toward something positive?

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    Don’t back off now, Eric! Nutcases who pronounce judgement from their lofty perches (“You just can’t face the truth…”) deserve nothing more than puncturing. The arguments being advanced here are simply silly, the stuff of children’s games.

  • Shark

    “Reality is the opposite of whatever the Voice of Authority is saying.” — Robert Anton Wilson

    EricO, I think a healthy dose of skepticism is a good thing, but one must be prepared to use it on all sides, including one’s Standard Reality Tunnel that accepts everything the ‘government’ says as gospel.

    PS: I suggest you read Woodward’s book “Veil: The Secret Wars of the CIA ” if you think all conspiracy folks are daffy. You’d be surprised what your government does in “your name”.

    PPS: In SOME WAYS, the Reichstag fire has always reminded me of 9/11.

    Anyway, this is some fun reading!

    BTW: IMHO, the WTC bldg #7 has always been problematic. It’s just too weird and doesn’t seem to fit in with the Standard Story.

    Carry on!

  • Prism Knight

    I also called them “tin-foil hat conspiracy theorists” until I started reading those articles and looking at the evidence. The moment of truth came to me when I read the the 9/11 Commission Report that said the investigations into some of the so called “hijackers” was obstructed by orders from higher-ups in the CIA & FBI.

    I thought, why would people in charge of protecting us want to endanger American lives by giving these scum a free pass? It became clear to me as I pieced all the evidence together, these “terrorists” who could only dream of hijacking one airliner let alone hijack four and attack the Pentaton and WTC were being set-up to act as patsies. I remembered how the months before 9/11 there was an increase in chatter about Osama and terrorists in general, I read about the War Games that took place on the week of 9/11 for the purpose of dealing with airplane hijackings and the complete hypocrisy and lies of the administration as they told the American people they had no idea of anything and were responsible for nothing!

    Even if you refuse the believe the truth, you cannot ignore the criminal ‘negligence’ that took place.

  • Eric Olsen

    surely there was negligence, there usually is when something this monumentally terrible happens

    Phillip, I am backing off nothing, just being more polite about it.

    Shark, my government does not conspire to blow up two buildings full of its own citizens on its own soil.

    Skepticism is fine – direct it at these “theories”

  • Prism Knight

    Its more than negligence, its a criminal act.

    Even now the FBI protects Osama Bin Laden’s RIGHT TO PRIVACY over the American public’s right to know about the involvement this human filth had. It always smelled like bull to me when the “osama tapes” were released at the most opportune times including right before the elections. Yet they cant catch this criminal who is reported to be alive and well?

    I refuse to become fodder for these corrupt powers.

  • http://google.com/search?q=griffin+wmv+download+painful Rocker

    Boys and girls,

    WTC not demolished with explosives?

    Ha!

    Trust your eyes… I DARE you

    watch LOOSE CHANGE, which has beeeeaaauuuutiful footage and enlargements of the

    ACTUAL CHARGES GOING OFF

    CLICK HERE

    ACTUAL CHARGES GOING OFF

    Watch it, and ask whats wrong
    with your eyes… or blame the
    messenger.

    further research:

    – Remote Control 767 757 egyptair 990
    – wargames northern vigilance leidig

    are your google words.

    Actual documentary videos can be downloaded from:

    watch LOOSE CHANGE

  • aj

    Right, our government that can’t seem to keep a secret from anyone, has been able to keep this secret for this long. Something this big would have taken dozens, maybe hundreds of people to pull off, not one of them has stepped forward. To bad deepthroat came out of hiding.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Ok, for the sake of refuting this, let’s assume you are right. The WTC was demolished.

    The crew that set it up was so intelligent as to sneak in the explosives under everyone’s nose. They managed to outfit 4 commercial airliners with remote control underneath the flight and maintenance crews noses. They managed to have Arab looking men on planes pretend to hijack the plane (phone calls prove this happened, and I’m not talking about the ones to the operator, I’m talking about people talking to their spouses). They were so brilliant they have the whole world except a few people believing this story that took place under the gaping eyes of a nation.

    Yet, they were so stupid that:

    1) They couldn’t sequence the explosions correctly having the tower hit second come down first,
    2) They blew up a building that wasn’t hit, and
    3) They couldn’t make sure none of their own people was on the plane (Ted Olsen, the solicitor general’s wife was on the plane that hit the Pentagon. Ted Olsen is an administration insider who has access to most all of our government’s dirty laundry).

    Which is it guys? Are the frighteningly brilliant or a bunch of clumsy oafs who just got real lucky?

    The theory is internally inconsistent.

  • NJT

    I am a licensed professional engineer with years of experience in structural steel quality assurance.
    I have witnessed structural steel that was scorched for hours by fuel fires. I have studied collapses of major steel bridges. And I just cannot believe that the towers fell like that as the result of fires. I will reserve final judement until someone actually builds a scale model and recreates the impact and fire. Maybe one of the “every engineering school in the country” that supposedly “has either been looking into the collapse or using it as a case study” would be willing to do so. But on the evidence I’ve seen, I’d say 99 to 1 it was more than the planes and ensuing fuel fire that took those buildings down. But don’t believe me, just because I spent years studying and working on structural steel. Get someone to build the scale model and do everything you can to recreate the failure mode. Then and only then can you convince me, that the “official conspiracy theory (the man in the cave did it!)” is true.

    Someone talks about nutcases “who pronounce judgement from their lofty perches” — well how is that any different than what you folks are doing?

  • NJT

    For those of you interested in refuting 9/11 theories, please visit this interesting site:

    There are many, many facets of the official 9-11 story which should make anyone with half a brain wonder if they are being lied to.

    But those of you on your lofty perches can keep casting your nutcasings, and keep your tin foil hats firmly in place if you blindly insist on believing the conspiracy theory that the “man in the cave did it.”

    I prefer to look at all the evidence and reserve final judgement until i see some proof. The coverups do make me wonder… As of yet, I’ve not seen proof one way or the other. Your theories & your derision is not proof, neither are news stories and CIA directors denouncing everything but the official conspiracy theory.

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Relying on “[a]nyone with a basic understanding of the laws of physics” despite the fact that a good number of us have watched the footage many times doesn’t constitute evidence. When someone disagrees with you, “[y]ou can’t bring yourself to confront the evidence presented” isn’t a valid answer. I’ve looked at all of this stuff, and I simply don’t agree.

    I’ve been through it all with Waco, with the Pentagon, with OK City, and so I’ve seen the conspiracy theories roll in from the right and the left and on and on. From the “faked moon landings” to this, it has so far all worked out roughly the same: because life doesn’t work like television does, with every single plot element carefully scripted and every question answered in 42 minutes or at least 22 episodes, people imagine the worst. People take little things here and there that don’t look like they do in the summer blockbuster movies and put them together to mean something more. And it’s just false.

    We landed on the moon. The was sunlight reflecting off of the tank. Yes, a truck full of fertilizer took down that whole building. Yes, that was an airplane hitting the Pentagon. And yes, crashing two airplanes full of jet fuel into the World Trade Center towers caused all of that destruction.

    I don’t trust experts just because they’re experts. But I don’t mistrust the government just because it’s the government either. There are some nasty people in government who make poor decisions and don’t have my best interests at heart — I understand that. But that doesn’t overwhelm the rest of the evidence which clearly demonstrates what happened on 9/11.

    We can stack up all of the engineers and firefighters who believe the party line on one side, and all of the engineers and firefighters who believe the conspiracy theory on the other side, and we’ll have a lot of engineers and firefighters, but no real answers.

    Better yet, write up the two stories. Put them side by side. Which one makes more sense? That Osama bin Laden claimed credit for something the US government did? This isn’t a courtroom, where all you have to do to acquit your client is introduce “reasonable doubt.” You need to make a positive case, explain what did happen. And the positive case simply doesn’t add up in any way.

  • Eric Olsen

    well put Phillip – sometimes there ARE conspiracies, but they are almost always found out

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com/ andy marsh

    I check out all these links and now I see what really is wrong with blogging….any wacko can write any conspiracy theory he wants and be able to find moonbats to follow him or her!

  • Eric Olsen

    which is exactly why it is so important to call a moonbat a moonbat

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com/ andy marsh

    We landed on the moon???

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com/ andy marsh

    Is that were the bats came from???

  • Eric Olsen

    I went to college with Armstrong’s son – he’s pretty sure his dad made the trip.

  • NJT

    Phillip wrote “You need to make a positive case, explain what did happen.”

    Anyone who claims to know “what did happen” is lying to themselves, because no one (that’s talking, anyway) knows for sure what did happen.

    I know the official version doesn’t add up (to me, anyway, and I am a structural steel expert, more or less). Until someone can take the time and money (and why not, in the most important attack on US soil ever?) to build a scale model and prove that it could have happened this way, I will continue to disbelieve that the fuel fire caused that collapse. Where were the protruding steel columns immediately after the collapse? Crushed? Melted? You want syrup with your pancakes?

    Sorry, maybe that makes sense for you. But not for me. But unlike you folks, I’m not claiming to know exactly what happened. I just know how steel behaves and I don’t see why WTC steel would behave any differently than bridge steel or structural steel subjected to fire in many other skyscraper fires both before and since.

    Sorry I don’t buy it.

  • Eric Olsen

    enjoy your obsession and may it keep you warm at night

  • NJT

    Thanks!
    Enjoy your closed mind, may it keep you safe from bad men in caves everywhere.

  • Venice-13

    If you simply are unable to accept or believe that OUR GOVERNMENT is capable of something like 9-11, then please do yourself a huge favor and search out your own information on “OPERATION NORTHOODS” … and also read Woodwards “VEIL: The Secret Wars of the CIA” … as folks here have already suggested. “Northwoods” goes back to 1962 … if you don’t know about it, then I suspect you really don’t care to know about things that are true.

    A correction to someone’s earlier posting. It was Marvin Bush (not Neil) who was a principal in a company that provided security for the WTC. While that doesn’t prove anything, it’s worth considering. Bomb sniffing dogs that had been used at the WTC were called off a week or so prior to 9/11.

    Why did a passport belonging to one of the hijackers survive the crash (found near the WTC) while the plane’s Black Boxes didn’t survive?

    Where were our military planes that are supposed to scramble when an airliner goes off course??? There are hundreds of legitimate questions that the 9/11 Commission didn’t answer, and that Washington isn’t going to address.

    Call this “conspiracy” if you must … hell, call it anything. If you wanna be the fool who doesn’t question his government, you’re potentially more dangerous than a conspiracy theorist.

  • Brent

    The government uses intimidation, gag orders and murder to supress anyone trying to come forth with the truth about 9/11. I dont expect sheep who want to get spoonfed by the government to change their minds. Those who are intelligent enough will be able to dismiss the BS created by the administration. This is no f’ing joke. The American government committed the biggest crime on its own citizens and not a single person involved is being held accountable. They no longer care about the war on terror either, they are ignorant enough to feel everything being justified by bombing afghanistan and iraq, and waving their cheap made in china US flags. They direct their anger towards anonymous poster on this blog than the criminals who let Saudi Arabia become exempt from nuke inspections and prevent the borders from being protected. Even though they keep telling us a terrorist can easily bring in a nuke from the Mexican or Canadian border and kill millions of Americans.

  • Eric Olsen

    Please answer this very simple question: what possible reason would the U.S. government have to do something like this?

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    NJT, so because you didn’t see the physical evidence you expected, you reject what most of us saw in favor of… what? I’m not saying you have to know every detail; that’s precisely my point. Unlike television and the movies, life is never that neat. But surely you must have some idea?

    For example, one possibility would be that because you don’t see the exposed steel beams you expect, you believe that the building was demolished with explosives. Of course, we don’t see the normaly tell-tales of controlled demolition either, so isn’t that a problem?

    If each of the many competing conspiracy theories was submitted to even a fraction of the scrutiny the official story has undergone, each would fall apart quickly. It isn’t a matter of whether or not our government would or could do such a thing, but whether or not it makes any sense. And it doesn’t.

  • NJT

    Phillip wrote “because you don’t see the exposed steel beams you expect, you believe that the building was demolished with explosives.”

    Given that the building collapsed as if it was made only of concrete, that seems like a likely alternative (explosives on the steel columns below).

    However I really don’t know. What I do know, and what I hope you are not disputing, is that the Bush administration fought tooth and nail against the formation of a commission, against the funding of the commission, and against testifying before the very commission they had created. Those things really make me wonder what really did happen.

    Personally, I would like to build a scale model and prove (at least to myself) one way or the other, if this failure mode we witnessed, is indeed possible given the official story of airplanes and their fuel bringing down a structural steel skyscraper. But I don’t have the immense resources for such an undertaking. As I mentioned above, perhaps one of the supposedly “every engineering school in the country who has been looking into the collapse or using it as a case study” would care to do so. It was only the most important building collapse ever. So why don’t they do it? I’ll be very interested to read the results.

  • NJT

    Eric Olsen wrote “what possible reason would the U.S. government have to do something like this?”

    Are you familiar with the PNAC and their declared need (prior to 9-11) for a new “Pearl Harbor”?

    I’m not claiming anything, other than that this PNAC’s new Pearl Harbor answers your question above.

  • Brent

    Phillip, you poor [removed]. A building with a corner side fraction and diminishing fires WOULD HAVE NEVER fallen in a linear manner at that speed.

    Why do you dismiss the accounts of the firefighters inside the towers who saw and heard explosions?

    Why are you overlooking the evidence of an explosion at the the basement of tower?

    From: http://www.chiefengineer.org/article.cfm?seqnum1=1029

    “They decided to ascend two more levels to the building’s lobby. As they ascended to the B Level, one floor above, they were astonished to see a steel and concrete fire door that weighed about 300 pounds, wrinkled up “like a piece of aluminum foil” and lying on the floor. “They got us again,” Mike told his co-worker, referring to the terrorist attack at the center in 1993. Having been through that bombing, Mike recalled seeing similar things happen to the building’s structure. He was convinced a bomb had gone off in the building.”

    Or what about the gag order placed on them?

    Care to explain away those incidents and facts, [removed].

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    If I put up a website the said the tides were a part of the international Zionist conspiracy, would you link to it?

  • aj

    People see what they want to see, and are blind to the facts. Crazy things happen all the time, and most of them are not conspiracies. Your parents were probaly to strict with you all when you were young, and you felt helpless and wanted to rebel against athority in any way you could. Now any chance you can, you take out your hostility on the government. You couldn’t trust your parents then, you never grew up, and you can’t trust parental figures (the government) now. It’s time to grow up, the buildings were hit by planes, the designers of the buildings didn’t think of everything, the buildings came down. And just because someone claims he is an expert in a blog, doesn’t make him one in real life.

  • NJT

    hey aj – thanks for clearing it all up – i feel so much better now with an all-knowing poster like you on board. You’ve explained everything here with your post; why we didn’t see structural steel columns and why the Bush admin stonewalled their own commission. And why I’ve been skeptical all this time – it’s my parents fault for being too strict! That supercedes years of structural steel analysis, any day. Thanks a lot.

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    Brent, if you rephrase your comment without the personal insults, I’ll answer. We have a comment policy on this site, and personal insults are not allowed.

  • http://victorplenty.blogspot.com Victor Plenty

    Only a jackass calls someone a jackass.
    … oops.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com/ andy marsh

    I would John…but I’m like that!

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    Never mind, Brent, I edited the comment to bring it in line with site policy.

    As I have said, I disagree with your conclusions. In fact, I worry about people who are so sure they’re right in every detail that everyone who disagrees must be stupid or simply refusing to face fact. Isn’t that called ‘fundamentalism’ these days?

    Again, nobody is bothering to explain how any alternative theory makes any more sense than the “official” theory. Not only should people who live in glasses houses not throw stones, but people dancing on clouds shouldn’t try to poke holes in balloons.

    You know that there were dimishing fires in the WTC? How on earth did you observe that and still make it out in time? Or are you basing that on external observation? It was a big building, and what you see from the outside gives little or no indication of what’s going on inside.

    I don’t “dismiss” accounts by people on the scene, but I view with them a certain amount and type of skepticism. I’m sure that they believe that what they heard were explosions, and for all I know they might have been, though not necessarily caused by planted explosives. But let us also remember that these people were not exactly observing dispassionately, but were in a high-strees situation. People also initially claimed to have seen explosives strapped to the basement support beams at the Murrah mederal building in OK City — do you believe that, too? The initial reports from any major disaster area are always the least reliable. Since all later reports, physical evidence, photos, etc, all line up one way, it seems reasonable to believe that — as is often the case — the initial reports were heavily tinged by preconceptions.

    It was eminently reasonable for firefighters on the scene to assume that the WTC had been hit by a bomb. It had happened in 1993, and it would have been my first assumption as well. However, based on other evidence, we now know better.

    Again, where is the counter-theory? What is supposed to have happened? Sigh.

  • NJT

    oh boy, here we go:
    “People also initially claimed to have seen explosives strapped to the basement support beams at the Murrah mederal building in OK City — do you believe that, too?”

    I recall that while i was at work that April 19, we immediately tuned in to the news of the Murrah bombing. I specifically remember that the news reporters stated that (while showing the activity on screen) “unexploded bombs” were being removed from the Murrah building by bomb squads.
    Now I allow that these initial news reports might have been wrong. But seeing the damage pattern in the building, it does look like explosives went off inside the building, in addition to whatever was in the truck that McVeigh brought there. And John Doe #2? That wasn’t Terry Nichols. John Doe #2 (recorded that day with McVeigh on surveillance cameras), was never found and quickly forgotten.

    But oh yeah, believing what I specifically remember is all my “too-strict” parents fault and this just proves that I am nuts, right?

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    NJT, can you tell the difference between ‘Phillip Winn’ and ‘aj’?

    How about the moon? Did we really land on the moon? I’m just trying to get a sense of how deeply into the rabbit hole you’ve gone.

  • NJT

    It’s really easy (and fun!) to crap all over “conspiracy theorists” while remaining ignorant of the actual evidence.

    Are you at all familiar with the water board tape or the seismological record?
    Do you understand non-symetric structural damage from a point source?

    Once you are and if you do, then we can have a serious discussion. In the meanwhile, keep your tin foil hats firmly in place or these conspiracy theories (I prefer to consider them unanswered questions) might get into your brains.

  • NJT

    Phillip – the moon, i don’t know. I’ve read some interesting questions that have been raised. My belief is that we went there, but I allow that anything’s possible.

  • Eric Olsen

    so this “Pearl Harbor,” that our own government created, was done so for the purpose of … ? giving them an excuse to invade Afghanistan and Iraq? To create the War on Terror?

    Doesn’t this strike you as a bit convoluted? A bit operatic, and certainly insane (on their parts, I mean). And how many government officials were in on this?

    Doesn’t reading these words make you feel a bit, um, sheepish about believing in a theory so screamingly impossible on so many different levels?

  • http://victorplenty.blogspot.com Victor Plenty

    You really believe in any such thing as a “moon”?

  • NJT

    Phillip – what i believe is facts. I believe in the scientific method.

    I don’t believe in blind trust, or endless faith in ‘official versions.’ Consider me a skeptic, I just don’t take conjecture as facts and I want real scientific answers. That’s all. No rabbit hole, just questions that have not been answered. The lack of answers points to a rabbit hole, but I’m going to refrain from wild speculation. Just the facts please, ma’am.

    Most of what is presented in both cases (WTC & OKC) is not fact but conjecture. I do know that I’m not the only person with serious questions, and that not all of us questioners are as nuts as some would have you believe.

  • NJT

    Eric “Doesn’t this strike you as a bit convoluted? A bit operatic, and certainly insane (on their parts, I mean). And how many government officials were in on this?”

    You asked for a possible reason. I gave one. To answer your new questions, yes, and I don’t claim to know who / how many were in on it and why. But should we stop asking questions? IMO not until they are finally answered, with facts.

  • NJT

    Eric wrote “believing in a theory so screamingly impossible on so many different levels?”

    What theory are you claiming I believe which is so impossible?
    The theory that the Bush admin fought against the creation of a 9-11 commission?
    The theory that Bush refused to testify under oath before his own commission?
    Or the theory that someone other than the bad guy in the cave had something to do with the WTC falling?

    I’m sorry but I don’t find any of this to be “screamingly impossible”

    I do however find a structural steel building’s implosion to be screamingly improbable.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com andy marsh

    yeah Eric…just cause you’re paranoid…doesn’t mean they’re really not after you!!!

  • Venice-13

    Eric Olsen states:
    >>”so this “Pearl Harbor,” that our own government created, was done so for the purpose of … ?”

    Well … One idea for a possible REASON is the psychological “FEAR FACTOR”. If government convinces you that you are in danger, and that only they can protect you … well, then you’ve really made yourself vulnerable to manipulation. You’re very likely (as you may be Eric Olsen) to give up some or all of your liberties for a little security.

    Here’s a Ben Franklin quote: “Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

    ALSO … another idea for a possible REASON is that this administration is hell-bent on moving the money upwards, out of the hands of the masses and into the hands of a few. If you feel protected and secure with these bozos in control … then you’ll accept things like their plan for Social Security, or you’ll accept their plans for drilling in the ANWR … or maybe you’ll be comfortable with Patriot Acts 5 or 6 …. (????)

    Here’s another quote to enjoy:

    “Why of course the people don’t want war… But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship… Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.”
    -Hermann Goering,
    Hitler’s designated successor, the second man in the Third Reich
    April 18, 1946
    Nuremberg Trials.

  • Brent

    The criminals in the government except the public to explain any occurence that debunks their made up “official” story as something crazy that just happens, therefore we shouldnt investigate or question. These people are in power for a reason; they have the knowledge of keeping the masses under their control through any means necessary.

    They use the mass media to advance their propaganda and control the public’s opinion. We always hear the blanket, and meaningless rhetoric of “spreading freedom”, and “protecting the homeland”, or “you are either with us or against us”, these are marketing buzzwords that are supposed to replace each individuals reason.
    Lets not forget what a nation is, it is an institution, there are no holier-than-thou figures, only those who pretend to be, there are no moral or ethics or honor, those are just idealistic and unrealistic terms used by coniving people who know how to maneuver a large crowd to support his personal agenda.

    You can call yourself a patriot or a good citizen but that will never change the fact that the institution known as a nation and the organization known as a government has legal power and control on the territory you call your country.

    Today’s American government has a power structure based on enourmous amounts (trillions) of cash flow, military, industrial and economic control, and a great highly refined control structure that span multinational alliances to federal agencies to states to your local precint.

    Consider how powerful the people in the top are compared to you. In the realm of politics they put on an act to distract you from their agendas and plans. The media’s job is to distract. They want the majority of people to live in the fictional world they invent.

    So lets try to uncover some their fiction…

  • Eric Olsen

    ah, thanks to Ben and Hermann it’s all clear now

  • hdhntr

    What about the 911 War Games Operations, overseen by none other than Tricky Dick Cheney. One of them tool place on 911 and involved the use of simulated hijacked aircraft as missiles into buildings.

    There is also much in the way of photographic and videographic evidence, proving that the plane that hit the south tower was not a Boeing 767-222 (flight 175) but instead, a Tanker Transport Boeing 767-300, with no passenger windows, and that it actually can be seen firing a flame or a missile of some kind at the building just a split second before impact.

    If true, the plane strike then in that case was nothing but a theatrical pyrotechnic “shock and awe” display, in order to create a suspension of disbelief credibility regarding the cause of the free fall collapse of the twin towers an hour later.

    Yes, a remotely piloted, simulated hijacked aircraft operating literally as a missile, flying in at 575 MPH and carrying a refueling cargo hold of military fuel pallets.

    Can this be proven?

    It can, from a multitude of various video and still camera angles and lenses, some of which need to be examined in slow motion.

    This evidence is first hand, eyewitness testimony evidence, since it was recorded in real time, when the event occured.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    I’d still like answers to the problems I posed above at comment 93.

  • Eric Olsen

    and then there remains the question of why, to which I haven’t heard an answer remotely resembling plausible yet

  • John Galt

    Eric Olsen get off your lazy duff and get some answers. We’d love to hear what you learn. Stop asking to be spoon fed only to spit it out. Go away, it’s obvious you have an agenda to ridcule and that you lack the intellectual depth to accept any alternative explanations. Basically, you’re a coward.

  • Eric Olsen

    actually John, it’s my site, why don’t you go away?

  • Kevin Gregg

    Demolition explosives did it. Right.

    You know this really shows what contempt the Bush administration has for labor, appointing this Morgan Reynolds nut to be the chief economist of the Labor Department. Obviously the man was not properly vetted. Probably because the Bushies knew they were never going to listen to him anyway. Labor schmabor.

    I guess it could be that Reynolds recently developed a brain tumor, in which case I apologize, and wish him a speedy recovery.

  • Eric Olsen

    and I have the answers – I don’t have a problem with the offical version at all. I got it from innumerable media sources, and first-hand witness accounts as it all unfolded in real time. The burden of proof is with you not me. And you have none because there is none.

  • NJT

    my answers to your 93

    1) They couldn’t sequence the explosions correctly having the tower hit second come down first,

    no idea why they did what they did, but this doesn’t show that a fuel fire brought it down.

    2) They blew up a building that wasn’t hit, and

    apparently (WTC7) – that one seems the most apparent demolition, both from the total vertical collapse and the statement by Silverstein.

    3) They couldn’t make sure none of their own people was on the plane (Ted Olsen, the solicitor general’s wife was on the plane that hit the Pentagon. Ted Olsen is an administration insider who has access to most all of our government’s dirty laundry).

    I’ve heard this story that a wife was on the plane – maybe he wanted her out of the way – has he remarried (someone younger and prettier?) since? I don’t really know but this doesn’t prove to me that a fuel fire took them down.

    I’m not here to make up wacky theories – I’m here to say that, steel does not fail like that as the result of a building fire. So what did happen? I don’t know and I want answers and I’m sorry if that makes you angry.

  • NJT

    and then there remains the question of Eric “why, to which I haven’t heard an answer remotely resembling plausible yet”

    Are you saying that the PNAC’s Pearl Harbor is not “remotely plausible”?

    Do you believe that they didn’t state a need for a new “Pearl Harbor”?

    Or you just doubt that this is how a new Pearl Harbor might look?

  • NJT

    Eric “first-hand witness accounts as it all unfolded in real time. The burden of proof is with you not me.”

    I’m sorry but I remember a lot of eyewitnesses on TV that day in real time reported “what sounded like bombs going off” I remember hearing that on live TV, don’t you?
    I also remember an “expert” on live TV stating that there must have been “tons of explosives in the towers, for them to collapse like that”
    Those are the first hand accounts I remember in real time, and I was only watching for about two hours that day.

  • john galt

    Eric–I didn’t realize that or I would have been gone sooner. See ya.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    NJT:

    I’m not trying to prove fuel brought it down, I’m saying the theory presented here is internally inconsistent.

    How could they be so brilliant to get away with it yet do dumb things like demolish a building not hit and not sequence explosions correctly?

    I don’t think Ted Olsen has remarried, but I can’t confirm.

    The other thing about explosions going off, I would think one floor falling into another would sound alot to an untrained ear as an explosion…

  • Bennett

    [sound of door slamming]

  • http://www.kangaroocourt-blog.com/blog/_archives/2005/6/15/943712.html Rick

    “In order to have a controlled demolishing of a building, it requires a large effort that would be very hard to keep secret and certainly take very long to set up if it were to be kept secret. For instance, there would be no way to set it up in 8 months if it were Bush or someone who came to office with him. I know, however, if I saw people carrying boxes of dynamite in the building back when I was working in the Sears Tower, I would have started working from home.”

    Exactly. Of all the 9/11 conspiracies out there, this one is the biggest violation of Occam’s Razor, or using the simplest hypothesis to explain an event. This one is easily the most complex of all the conspiracy theories blaming the Bush administration for planning everything that happened on 9/11. Where are the witnesses to all of the explosives that were put into place? We’re talking about demolitions of two 1,300-plus foot towers and a 47 story tower. Tens of thousands of people worked in the WTC and the conspiracy knuckleheads have yet to produce one witness to the set up of their imaginary “controlled demolition.”

    Most importantly, just how the hell would you set off a demolition in a raging inferno? Much of the explosives and wiring necessary to set off a demolition would get burned by the raging fire set off by the planes colliding into the towers. Duh! Hardly ideal conditions for pulling off a “controlled demolition.”

    No amount of logical refutation of this most absurd of all 9/11 conspiracies is going to persuade the conspiracy knuckleheads from giving up on it though.

  • NJT

    Rick: Most importantly, just how the hell would you set off a demolition in a raging inferno? Much of the explosives and wiring necessary to set off a demolition would get burned by the raging fire set off by the planes colliding into the towers. Duh! Hardly ideal conditions for pulling off a “controlled demolition.”

    If you may recall, the buildings were not consumed in flames. The theory is that the charges were along the columns below the points of impact. There were no raging fires there.

    I’m sorry they didn’t have boxes marked “dynamite” (thermite?) on them – i don’t know how long it would have taken to actually rig it, but to me 8 months seems pretty extreme. Just because nobody came forward doesn’t prove it didn’t happen. Could have been Israeli agents, or Iraqi agents, or people without the temerity to go blabbing.

    None of this explains what might have happened to the structural steel.

    I’m still waiting for someone to explain to me; Do you think the steel columns were all crushed, or melted? Both?

    Or I know, the bad guy in the cave waved his magic turban and they simply vanished in thin air?

  • Venice-13

    Hey John Bambenek, Here’s a partial reply to your posting #93 :

    The World Trade Center towers underwent a deliberate “power down” several weeks before 9-11. Power was deliberately cut off in the South Tower from the 48th floor up. The given reason was that the Port Authority was performing a cabling upgrade to increase the WTC’s computer bandwidth. During this period (power down), many “engineers” were going in-and-out of the WTC who had free access throughout the building due to its security system being knocked out.
    See: THIS

    Explosives could have been moved into the buildings when the security was cut off. Bomb-sniffing dogs were removed from the WTC days before the attack.

    Yes, planes could be flown remotely … or by fools who were set up to do it.

    Regarding cell phone calls from the hijacked planes. One “victim” on one of the hijacked planes called his mother. Here’s a transcript of what was said:

    Caller: “Mom? This is Mark Bingham.”
    Caller: “I want you to know that I love you.
    I’m on a flight from Newark to San Francisco and
    there are three guys who have taken over the
    plane and they say they have a bomb.”
    Alice: “Who are these guys?”
    Caller: (after a pause) “You believe me, don’t you?”
    Alice: “Yes, Mark. I believe you. But who are these guys?”

    When do you call your mother and say “Mom, this is so and so …” and include your last name?. There are questions about all the calls from the “victims”.

    Please check out “Operation Northwoods” (1962) to see if our government leaders would ever consider harming us for the sake of their own agendas. I suspect you trust the Joint Chiefs of Staff (?)

  • Venice-13

    Hello NJT: You ask,”..just how the hell would you set off a demolition in a raging inferno?”.

    Well, I can tell you a dozen ways to do that. One simple way is to use a cell phone and a detonator. The explosives don’t need to be set near the “raging inferno” … although they certainly can be. Radio controlled detonators are not the stuff of Flash Gordon … this is the 21st Century. Synchronous explosions would be a piece of cake.

  • NJT

    Hi Venice-13
    That wasn’t my question; I was quoting the poster I was responding to. Personally, I thought it was a pretty misguided question. But what do I know, I don’t even wear a tin foil hat, or believe in the magic bad man in the cave. I’m just an old steel engineer with a few questions.

  • Venice-13

    Sorry NJT, I thought that was your comment.

    I’m just an old electrical engineer, and I continue to question every damn thing.

    Take care!

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    Are these the types of steel beams you keep looking for, NJT? Or maybe these? Or… aw, forget it.

    This is such a waste of time. Nobody is ever going to answer my questions.

    Do you guys think an international conspiracy framed OJ and Michael Jackson, too?

  • Venice-13

    Can you answer any of these questions???

    9/11 – The Basic Questions

  • NJT

    Phillip: I’m looking for support columns > 30 feet in length showing evidence of buckling.
    A short section of beam doesn’t prove that explosives were not used. Especially when that section is perfectly straight with no signs of failure.
    A buckling beam has a lateral component. Yet this collapse showed virtually no lateral buckling whatsoever. It’s as if the support beams were suddenly pulled away, causing the collapse.
    I’m not looking for a picture of a beam, I’m looking for a realistic failure scenario. Aw forget it, yourself. You know all the answers already, right?

  • NJT

    “Do you guys think an international conspiracy framed OJ and Michael Jackson, too?”

    Let’s see – they both walked – if they were framed by an international conspiracy, don’t you figure at least one would have been found guilty?
    IMO they are both victims.
    Victims of their own stupidity.

  • http://www.landofthefreehomeofthebrave.org/wp/ Margaret Romao Toigo

    Oliver Stone ought to do a movie about this — and he would find quite a lot of script fodder in here.

    The trouble with conspiracy theorists is that they bring up compelling questions that can only be answered with conjecture, which leads to even more questions.

    I will not speculate about the who, how, what or why, but when I saw the towers fall on live television on September 11, 2001, it looked like controlled demolitions to me. To this day, I cannot accept that the collapse of those buildings was a natural event.

  • Karl Jackson

    >>“The trouble with conspiracy theorists is that they bring up compelling questions that can only be answered with conjecture, which leads to even more questions.”

    I see your point, but it must also be understood that “conspiracy theory” equals “some anti-government nut in a one room shack in Montana drawing crazy connections where no connections actually exist”. :)

    The “official story” of 9/11 is a conspiracy theory. It alledges that OBL and 19 Muslim fanatics conspired to hijack airliners and fly them into skyscrapers and the Pentagon. It alledges that this was done, and the Twin Towers collapsed soon thereafter as a result of structural damages sustained in the impacts, and the effects of the resulting fires on load bearing building elements.
    One has to determine whether this conspiracy theory is plausible in light of the known facts. Many of us have been researching it for years, and reach the conclusion that it is at best highly improbable.

  • http://www.landofthefreehomeofthebrave.org/wp/ Margaret Romao Toigo

    9/11, like the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, is likely going to remain a mystery.

    There are all sorts of contradictions, implausibilities and gaps in the “official story,” but some of the conspiracy theories are even more ambiguous and confusing, especially the ones that level unfounded accusations toward the opportunists who exploited the tragedy.

  • hdhntr

    If it remains a mystery, then it is productive of nothing at all.

    Most know the official story is blatantly false.

    So what do we do. We take it upon ourselves to try to find out as much as we can and to share what we have found.

    The victims deserve something better than a payout, and to be silenced, and look at the unjust and unjustifed war essentially waged in their name.

    I don’t know about you, but every time I hear one of these assholes invoke 911 and go on and on about what a changed world we live in now, I want to vomit, since they are the ones who went and fucked it all up, and there are some among them who knew about it, and authorized it, and now they want to use it as cannon fodder!

    You want to stand guard for the Big Lie, be my guest.

    You won’t catch me, with what I have discovered attempting to do so.

    For Pete’s sake, look into it and research it, outside of CNN and Fox News and the rest of the controlled media.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    I’ll note my objections were not addressed even still…

    If this theory is so air-tight, name some names… who did it?

    No conspiracy can be complete without mentioning the freemasons, the Council on Foreign Relations, or the trilateral commission…

    Blaming PNAC is too vogue…

  • R. Johnson

    The Illuminati is behind this. With back
    up from The Knights Of Columbus and The
    Rosicrucians and all followers of Saint
    Germain as well.

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    I’ve heard this story that [Ted Olsen’s] wife was on the plane – maybe he wanted her out of the way – has he remarried (someone younger and prettier?) since

    Well, she was already much younger and prettier than he is, so I doubt he was trading up. It’s pretty obscene of you to accuse the guy of wanting his wife dead, when he had the horror of taking her call from the plane and hearing her asking him to try to help, and then hearing the phone go dead.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Since when has ugly stopped the conspirac theorists…

  • Venice-13

    Hello bhw :

    How do you know that Ted Olsen’s wife called Ted Olsen at all??? No one has been shown the cell phone records. I don’t think any cell phone records have been shown to the public. We just get told the same stories over and over by the mainstream (corporate-controlled) media, and eventually it’s just accepted as truth.

    If you accept the “official” account that terrorists took over the plane with “boxcutters”, then perhaps you should wonder how anyone would actually know that to be a fact.

    Even if the “boxcutters” story isn’t false, it really only serves to divert attention from anything that might have gone on inside the planes.

    Show me some cell phone records, please.

    * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    And to John Bambenek : Not to establish “IF” our govt orchestrated 9/11, but simply to determine IF our govt is capable of harming our own citizens … I’m interested in hearing what you think or have thought of “Operation Northwoods”, please.

    Thank you!

  • Shark

    SORTA BEARS REPEATING:

    Karl Jackson: “…The “official story” of 9/11 is a conspiracy theory. It alledges that OBL and 19 Muslim fanatics conspired to hijack airliners and fly them into skyscrapers and the Pentagon. It alledges that this was done, and the Twin Towers collapsed soon thereafter as a result of structural damages sustained in the impacts, and the effects of the resulting fires on load bearing building elements. One has to determine whether this conspiracy theory is plausible in light of the **known facts. Many… reach the conclusion that it is at best highly improbable.”

    ** known facts – which, btw, were denied the American public tooth and nail by the Bush administration. Why stifle an investigation on the greatest crime on American soil ever?

    ===================

    Oh, and for those keeping track of:

    THE CONTEST TO DECIDE WHO BECOMES THE MOST PISSY
    …and offended because their Standard Reality Tunnel (Taboos) are being denied by the opposition:

    It’s currently a tie between:

    Eric “It’s my site, why don’t you go away?!” Olsen

    -vs-

    John “See ya, coward!” Galt.

    Stay tuned.

    ============

    heh.

    ~ I love this stuff!

    ============

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    Show me some cell phone records, please.

    No, if you’re going to accuse someone of murdering his wife, YOU show some evidence.

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    I’m a bit disappointed to find that Shark buys into this nonsense. It has definitely lowered my opinion of the man.

  • Eric Olsen

    Shark, enjoy bantering on with the loons – let me know if you come up with something that doesn’t involve the president of the United States and other key officials conspiring to kill thousands of their fellow citizens on American soil.

    And let me know how the insurance companies would feel about this as well.

    And since this particular government is so full of fuck-ups, clue me in as to how all of this could have been accomplished AND kept secret.

    Oh yeah, and there is the “why” factor – please make the answer specific beyond simple Bush-loathing.

  • Bennett

    I don’t know what to believe about this topic.

    I decided to take a pass on participating in the discussion, as I do not have enough information about structural engineering, the melting point of steel versus the heat of burning jet fuel, or what went on with the building security in the weeks prior to 9/11. But I’ve thought about it over the last day or so, and decided to tell you all what I do know, don’t know, and what I may believe about all of this.

    I do know that the world has changed since that fateful day. I do know that we are in Iraq as a result. I do know that billions of dollars have traded hands, and some very large corporations are making obscene profits because of the change in our military policy since 9/11. These things may not be related at all, but I wonder:

    Would anyone trade three thousand strangers for tens of billions of dollars?

    Would anyone trade three thousand strangers for consolidation of power?

    Would anyone trade three thousand strangers for a new world order?

    I am not much of a conspiracy-type fellow. Nor are most of Americans. We have much in our lives that takes precedence over the pursuit of “who done it and why?” crusades. We take our news predigested and have a beer or two on the side. But:

    I don’t understand why the third building collapsed.

    I don’t understand why there are so many unanswered questions about the collapse.

    I don’t understand why there are gag orders.

    I don’t understand why this discussion makes some people very very angry.

    I’ve enjoyed reading some of the posts on this thread, and visiting some of the web sites that have a lot of questions about 9/11. I’ve learned that there are questions. And:

    I believe our government is capable of disinformation, and discrediting valid informational sources by creating bogus UFO conspiracy theory-type websites to point at as representative of any particular line of thought. But surely not in this case.

    I believe that this whole thing may have happened the way it was presented by the 9/11 commission.

    I believe that it may have been a set up, and that explosives were used to make sure the towers fell. But probably not.

    I believe that it would shake our world to the core if one of the “rats” decides to blurt out the “truth”. But I’m not saying there are any rats in this case, or that it happened in any way other than the official explanation.

    I believe that “Wag The Dog” has happened before, and will happen again, although probably not in this case.

    I think that I’m like at least 50% of America. Healthily skeptical, basically uninformed, and hoping for the best. There’s no possible way for ME to know what happened on 9/11. Hell, I live on a small farm in northern Vermont for christ’s sake! In a world where everything you read could be fake, twisted to suit a purpose, or an outright lie?

    I don’t know what to believe about this topic.

    Have I lowered myself in the eyes of my fellow blogcritics by posting this comment? Sure hope not.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Venice:

    The guy’s wife died, I’m willing to take what he said about phone calls at face value without telling him to produce a freaking tape. I’m not going to demand to see every shred of evidence because (1) I could spend my whole life looking at it and not be done, and (2) might not know what to do or make of some of it anyway.

    Sure the government is capable of harming its own citizens, I don’t believe they are all angels in ANY administration. I don’t need to look at Northwoods, there are plenty of recent historical examples… say Waco.

    But this theory is inplausible on so many grounds. I’ve not heard a convincing reason of WHY. Let’s say Bush did this. What did he have to gain… PERSONALLY? When heads of state do things this flagrantly wrong there has to be a PERSONAL payoff.

    I also find the theory inconsistent in itself. Are they stupid and got lucky or incredibly brilliant yet sloppy?

    Lastly, Nixon couldn’t even cover-up wiretaps, how in the world could Bush cover up blowing up buildings in broad daylight if he was responsible?

  • SFC SKI

    But how does this tie in with the Israeli Mossad tricking 19 peace loving Muslims who loved both animals and children into flying planes into buildings?

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    For the answer to that we need Patriot to stop by and fill us in on the role of AIPAC AKA ZOG in the WTC attack.

    Dave

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    >>I’ve heard this story that [Ted Olsen’s] wife was on the plane – maybe he wanted her out of the way – has he remarried (someone younger and prettier?) since

    Well, she was already much younger and prettier than he is, so I doubt he was trading up. It’s pretty obscene of you to accuse the guy of wanting his wife dead, when he had the horror of taking her call from the plane and hearing her asking him to try to help, and then hearing the phone go dead.< <

    Have to agree, this is one of the sickest bits of conspiracy mongering I've seen. It really goes beyond acceptable looniness when you start making stuff like this up.

    >>How do you know that Ted Olsen’s wife called Ted Olsen at all??? No one has been shown the cell phone records. I don’t think any cell phone records have been shown to the public. We just get told the same stories over and over by the mainstream (corporate-controlled) media, and eventually it’s just accepted as truth.<<

    Actually, we have recordings of a number of the calls, with confirmation from those receiving the calls that they were from the person who died. I’m not sure it’s possible to track where cell calls originate if they are done from high altitute.

    Dave

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Is there any tradgedy that happens in this world that someone somewhere doesn’t blame on the Jews?

  • Bennett

    I’m pretty sure the Indian Ocean tsunami wasn’t a Jewish Conspiracy.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    You sure… I mean alot of Muslims got killed so it MUST have been the Jews…

    I sense a Mossad plot.

  • Bennett

    Naw, just did a google search and there doesn’t seem to be a connection.

    Did you have any idea of what you were stirring up when you made this post?

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    No I didn’t, I was quite shocked how many comments this generated. I guess I figured those who think 9/11 was a Mossad plot all hung out at DU or something…

    Now that it has generated 178 comments though, I’d like to keep going to make it to the leaderboard…

    Might as well.

  • SFC SKI

    We really need a special font or HTML code or something for sarcasm.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    How about…

    [SARCASM]

    I blame France.

    [/SARCASM]

  • SFC SKI

    I guess that is what it will take.

  • Bennett

    SFC SKI – that was a joke. I didn’t actually do a google search for mossad and tsunami.

    C’mon, is that what you think of me?

    Makes me sad.

    [/sarc]

  • SFC SKI

    I was alluding to one of the better rumors in the Arabic papers after 9/11.
    I think some other poster did not quite get the joke.
    Besides, Google news is run by the Gnomes of Zurich and would not give us any info on Israeli tectonic experiments in any case.

  • Bennett

    Whew, that’s a load off… ;-]

    Oh, and damn them gnomes!

  • http://www.kangaroocourt-blog.com/ Rick

    NJT writes “There were no raging fires there.”

    Then why were people jumping from the buildings? So they wouldn’t get burned alive in the raging infernos set off by the planes crashing into the towers! Duh!

    As far as radio detonators are concerned, wouldn’t these devices on the explosives themselves get damaged by the impact of the plane, and the raging fires NJT says didn’t happen? A demolition has to be done from top to bottom of a structure for it to work.

    As far as the collapse of the building itself is concerned, all it takes is one upper floor collapsing to set it all off. Then the floor below collapses onto the next floor and so on. The impact of the planes was more than enough to do that. I don’t what anybody else is hearing when they see video footage of the towers collapse, but there are no explosives going off. The 9/11 conspiracy crowd is seeing and hearing what they want to see and hear.

  • hdhntr

    I am working up a presentation. Perhaps you may wish to review it, at least what I’ve put together so far.

    http://letsroll911.org/ipw-web/bulletin/bb/viewtopic.php?t=8120

    Sorry, what’s the tag for making a link a link?

  • hdhntr

    Re: Multiple explosions

    here
    here
    here

  • Shark

    PhillipWinn: “…I’m a bit disappointed to find that Shark buys into this nonsense. It has definitely lowered my opinion of the man.”

    Lighten up, babe.

    I think this stuff is fascinating — and I’d agree with every word by bennett in comment #169; I’ve listened to JFK conspiracy loonies for years, and it’s a lot of fun, and it’s never ONCE damaged my brain, my integrity, or others’ opinions of me.

    So you and Eric definitely need to go read some CD reviews to relax.

    BTW: While I may accept a few crazy theories, I haven’t gone so bonkers as to believe Jesus got up and walked around after being dead for three days.

    [winky face here]

    =============

    Bennett: “…Have I lowered myself in the eyes of my fellow blogcritics by posting this comment?”

    If ya have to ask, Bennett… well…

  • hdhntr

    The Law of Falling Bodies, as put forth by Galileo (and still accepted as an axiom) states that the total distance traveled at the end of any specific time in a total vacuum, is calculated by the following equation
    Distance (D)= (32.16/2) X Time in seconds squared.
    when you apply this equation to the twin tower scenario, you get a very intersting answer.
    It is well documented how tall the towers are. They were, for a time the tallest buildings in the world. 1350 ft. So when you plug that in to the equation you get: 1350 (D) = (32.16/2) x time in seconds squared. This works out to time equaling 9.1627 seconds (please feel free to do the math for yourself)

    Now, the north tower collapsed in less than 9 seconds, somewhere around 8 seconds to be precise, and this is entirely verifyable.

    Therefore it fell at slight faster than the rate of absolute free fall in a vacuum.

    How could this be possible?

    If an actual vacuum was in fact created along the entire length of the structure beneath the point of impact (hint, through a precision engineered controlled demolition blowing out everything, including the air within the building) then it is entirely possible that a vacuum of some kind was created during the collapse. The difference in pressure then (ie: the atmosphere surrounding the building) could very well account for a slightly faster than free fall rate of collapse.

    You see, you have a problem, if you are advicating for any sort of pancake collapse as per the official theory of a strucural failure, and that is this.

    The timed collapse of the north tower is truly about 8 seconds, maybe 9 MAX, and the actual (in reality) time for any object to fall from that height, in a complete vacuum with no resistence at all (including even air resistence) is in fact 9.2 seconds, or 9.1627 to be precise.

    There is only one way such a complete vacuum could be created, with no resistence forces of any kind (including air), and that is, if a controlled demolition occured as per the video evidence (the explosive outward jetisoning of perimeter collumns as well as demo squibs) and the numerous eye and ‘ear’ witness accounts (including firefighters) of multiple explosions and rapid fire ‘cracks’ being heard both just before and during the collapse.

    You must also remember that the building was made of steel, and was constructed around a central steel structural core, such that the building would withstand hurricane force winds as well as impacts by planes of similar size and impact energy.

    Need I say more.

    North tower collapse = 8 seconds (9 MAX)
    Absolute free fall in a vacuum from 1350 ft = 9.2 seconds

    Are you aware of how a straw works, and how the pressure of the atmosphere presses down on the liquid in the glass making the draw much easier that it ought to be. Same principal.

    Thought experiment
    So, take the North Tower
    http://data.greatbuildings.com/ g…WTC_const.3.jpg
    And then take a large safe or a grand paino
    Drop both at the same time from the height of the north tower

    They would both hit the ground at the same time, or if anything, the top of the north tower would hit the ground a moment prior.

    This is a fact. They fell at the rate of total free fall, from top, to bottom. Think it through, and then take another look at this:
    http://data.greatbuildings.com/ g…WTC_const.3.jpg

  • Shark

    Forgot to ask: who do yall think are the top 100 guitarists in history?

    Just tryin’ to keep Bambi-Neck’s indoor record goin’.

    ~zzzzzzzzzzzzz

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    lol

  • Bennett

    Shark – “If ya have to ask, Bennett… well…”

    Hey man, we didn’t have the [/sarc] tag developed at the time or I would have used it.

  • Karl Jackson

    >>>“Then why were people jumping from the buildings? So they wouldn’t get burned alive in the raging infernos set off by the planes crashing into the towers!”

    Human skin has nerve endings, construction grade steel doesn’t.

  • Venice-13

    Hey John Bambenek:

    Why do you keep provoking with comments about Jews being blamed for 9/11. I haven’t seen anyone posting blame towards Jews anyhwere here … yet you keep raising the topic as though someone has blamed Jews. I’m a Jew (Sephardic) and I’m hoping you are not a Jew, because you’re offensive. I have no problem with you or anyone else (anywhere) buying into any “theory” about the 9/11 attack. To some people, a “conspiracy theory” is any theory that isn’t their own theory. We’re entitled to our theories, and I don’t mind hearing all of them. But to act like a shill, to provoke or phish for anti-Jew comments, as you’re doing is truly offensive. You’re probably waiting for that one comment so that you can scream “anti-Semite” and effectly put an end to interesting, valid discussion or debate. That’s an old and cheap trick. Perhaps I missed it (hey, I’m old), but it appears that no one has blamed or criticized a Jew .. yet.

    Most of the folks poking fun here are folks who repeatedly bring up unrelated topics. Or wish to fling “moonbat” simply because others won’t accept the corporate line. My answer to WHY our government might have been behind (caused) 9/11 is simple. MONEY & POWER. Okay, you don’t need to know about Operation Northwoods … and your Waco definitely has relative value. Here are a couple other things to consider. “Gulf of Tonkin”, or the “Burning of the Reichstadt”. I’m a patriot (Veteran … 25th Infantry Division, Cu Chi, Vietnam .. 1966-1968) …. I’m on YOUR SIDE … I hope. I’ll fight to protect your right to have and speak your own theories. I’m only advising against shilling for Jew-bashers. Don’t worry, if they’re out there, they’ll show up … there’s no need to provoke them. You must be interested in sincere discussion, otherwise why’d you invite it?

    AND … to bhw:

    I did NOT accuse Olsen of murdering/killing his wife. I asked where are the cell phone records. NOT the recordings (some of which are highly suspicious), but the actual call records. I do like to see every shred of evidence … and why shouldn’t we?

    AND TO ALL:
    If you’ve got a little time to download and watch videos about the “conspiracy theory” that I subscribe to … then check out this site.

    http://question911.com/links.php

    A high speed connection is advised, as the files are large. I recommend “91In Plane Site: The Director’s Cut” and “Loose Change”. Interesting videos on that page.

  • hdhntr

    “Forgot to ask: who do yall think are the top 100 guitarists in history?”

    http://k00077.myspace.com/00077/45/05/77965054_l.jpg

  • me

    Just two quick comments:
    1 – it is against texas state laws to publish textbooks with any “anti-american” sentiments
    2 – an interesting website from academic scientists, mostly non-american
    http://physics911

  • Venice-13

    Sorry, I messed up that link. I think this should be clickable:

    http://question911.com/links.php

    Give it a few minutes … that site gets huge traffic!

  • me

    btw john galt, pres of texas a&m is also
    “He currently is a member of the board of trustees of The Fidelity Funds, and a member of the board of directors of TRW, Inc., NACCO Industries, Inc., and Parker Drilling Company, Inc. He also serves as senior adviser or consultant to several major international firms, and is a trustee of the Charles Stark Draper Laboratory in Boston.”
    http://www.tamu.edu/conv/bio02.html
    check out http://www.draper.com/

  • NJT

    Eric Olsen wrote “Oh yeah, and there is the “why” factor – please make the answer specific beyond simple Bush-loathing.”

    Your refusal to consider PNAC’s “new Pearl Harbor” is perplexing.

    These are the people that backed Bush to get him elected. You really just don’t want to consider it at all?

    PNAC stated their needs, and recognizing that is not “simple Bush-loathing”

  • NJT

    What is obscene is that 3000 innocent Americans died, and the President didn’t even want a commission to investigate the crime.
    What is obscene is that after fighting the formation of the commission for months, the President refused to testify under oath before his own commission.
    What is obscene is the insults that get showered on anyone who has questions or doubts about the precious ‘official version’ of events.
    Those are a few things I find obscene.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Wanting a commission on his terms is not the same as not wanting a commission at all.

    People were blaming Bush and/or the Jews before the towers came down… if I were President, knowing the Democrats, I wouldn’t want a circus hearing either. But of course, when the commissioners DID talk to the President a couple were too busy to stay the whole time…

  • Venice-13

    Yo, Bambenek …. I don’t see anyone taking your bait. But you keep trying.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Comment 56 and 171 brought up the Mossad before I did…

    I don’t think the Mossad is the Spainish secret service.

    But that’s the character of the conspiracy theorists here… most of them are people who ACTUALLY believe that the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion is true.

  • http://www.templestark.com Temple Stark

    sorry I deleted the last comment. I was deleting other junk and the comment here was a looooooong string of characters to a movie link. Who ever did it – create a link < ahref="" >XXXXXlinkwords< /a > (but remove spaces)

    – Temple, BC.org Exec. editor

  • Nick Jones

    Personally, I believe that it was an Al-Qaida cadre of crossdressing Saudi men disguised to look like housekeeping staff who had months to plant the Thermite charges, and that “Tourist Guy” was the mastermind of the operation.

    Seriously, I don’t believe that there was any conspiracy, but certainly a monumental fuckup in national security. If you haven’t seen it already, just take a look at the “Oh fuck me!” expression on W.’s face at that Florida school.

    They are still many unanswered questions about 9/11. Russ Kick has a good chapter on them in his book Abuse Your Illusions. (Did you know that a Taliban Minister tried to warn the U.S. of an imminent attack during the summer of 2001?) It includes a link to a website of a very detailed timeline. (I’d give the URL here, but that book is in storage.)

  • NJT

    John Bambaneck “Wanting a commission on his terms is not the same as not wanting a commission at all.”

    I think I recall that
    a) he didn’t want a commission at all but ultimately had no choice as the 911 widows pushed for it all the way to Washington
    and
    b) his terms were “not more than an hour, and not under oath

    maybe that makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside.

    Me, I would’ve liked to have seen our President take it a little more seriously. But sure, I’m the crazy one. Enormous steel columns just collapse absolutely vertically, even though the only forces are in sheer or lateral; happens all the time, right?

    Demonstrate the failure mode with a scale model and i will stop.

  • Karl Jackson

    >>“But that’s the character of the conspiracy theorists here… most of them are people who ACTUALLY believe that the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion is true.”

    Um, seeing as most of the “conspiracy theorists” here (some people use worthless labels like Linus uses a security blankie) are into fact-finding. Therefore, the odds are higher that most or all of us learned that the thing was a forgery long ago.
    Nice try, thanks for playing.

  • Karl Jackson

    >>“But that’s the character of the conspiracy theorists here… most of them are people who ACTUALLY believe that the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion is true.”

    Um, seeing as most of the “conspiracy theorists” here (some people use worthless labels like Linus uses a security blankie) are into fact-finding. Therefore, the odds are higher that most or all of us learned that the thing was a forgery long ago.
    Nice try, thanks for playing.

  • hdhntr

    Part One

  • hdhntr

    I could not get the link tag to work. Please don’t delete. This is important regarding this very important issue!

    Must See

    Loose Change
    Part 1
    Part 2

    If anyone can come along and turn to links, great. Otherwise, leave it be.
    I attempting to follow the instructions and it didn’t work.

    If you can’t shoot the messenger, shoot his inability to make a url into a proper blue clickable link…

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    NJT:

    And what did the 9/11 Commission end up producing in the end? Was it really worth it? Did it tell us anything that wasn’t already known? Pretty much no. It’s suggestions were nonsense, the media hype was hype, and the information could have been gleaned from any major newspaper and dropped into the report.

    That, in and of itself, doesn’t prove anything. I think it was clear on 9/12 where the fault lied, you didn’t need a commission to get the information that it produced.

    THere was a problem of bureaucracy in intelligence agencies… so how did they fix it? MORE bureaucracy. The TSA, DHS, and DNI are all 100% wastes of money. That’s what the commission gave you… a higher budget deficit and strip searches for grannies at the airport.

  • NJT

    John Bambaneck – “I think it was clear on 9/12 where the fault lied, you didn’t need a commission to get the information that it produced.”

    After reading this I think that
    1) you didn’t even read the commission’s report (if you think the info found therein was the same as that found in a newspaper)
    and
    2) on 912 it most certainly was not clear to anyone who did anything other than swallow the official version hook line and sinker. To those of us with real serious questions, that still haven’t been explained, it is still not clear where the fault lies.

    Show me some evidence that “every engineering school in the country has either been looking into the collapse or using it as a case study.” I’d like to see more than the MIT report; please, provide a few links.
    thanks.

  • Nick Jones

    Loose Change: Part 1.

    Part 2

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    NJT: I have a hard copy of the report in fact in my bookshelf. I didn’t say it was the same, I said it could all be gleaned from.

    2) And that’s exactly my point. The commission didn’t do anything for you but you complain the Bush sandbagged on such an urgent and necessary thing. Pick a side.

    Not every CE class puts every class assignment on the web, you know full well I can’t provide that. But don’t you think that schools who teach kids how to build buildings would take a look at the WTC?

    I know the engineering school I worked at does. But maybe there are some engineering schools out there who don’t bother trying to teach their students… I can’t rule that out. But I can say with certainty a very high number of engineers and schools have been looking at this. Perhaps not formally in terms of producing reports to be published like MIT, but certainly as case studies for classroom material.

    Or maybe there is a conspiracy there too…

    Instead of learning engineering at engineering school the schools have been brainwashing all the kids to be dedicated neocons and signing them up to torture people in prisons.

  • Venice-13

    Mr.Bambenek said:
    >”Comment 56 and 171 brought up the
    >Mossad before I did…
    >
    >I don’t think the Mossad is the
    >Spainish secret service.
    >But that’s the character of the
    >conspiracy theorists here… most of
    >them are people who ACTUALLY believe
    >that the Protocols of the Learned
    >Elders of Zion is true.”

    Well, Sir, I’m sorry I missed comment #56, which IS insinuating and also pre-dates your comments. Comment #171, however, is simply a blatantly sarcastic question. There’s no need for you to say. “that’s the character of the conspiracy theorists here..” When you truly do not know anyone’s character, and when you’re “theory” might be a conspiracy theory.

    Yes, indeed, the Mossad is not the “Spanish secret service”. The Mossad are the nice folks who rushed to collect Mordechai Vanunu (some 19 years ago) when he “betrayed” Israels defense secrets. The poor guy (Vanunu) actually thought he was acting in the higher cause of world peace (probably not good “character” in your estimation).

    That’s another topic. And what person with any “character” could imagine Israel having anything to do with 9/11, and how could Israel possibly benefit from the subsequent war on Iraq? Iraq wasn’t a threat to Israel …. was it?

    Hey … I refuse to speculate, and I darn sure don’t want to be called a “self-hating Jew”. If you’ve not already read it, may I suggest you read Gideon’s Spies: The Secret History of the Mossad
    by Gordon Thomas

    Peace, My Jewish Brother

  • NJT

    John Bambanek “But maybe there are some engineering schools out there who don’t bother trying to teach their students…”

    And just what is it you claim they are teaching their students?
    That steel yields at 1300 F?
    That fuel fires burn over 1000 F?
    That steel columns buckle in the z axis only?
    That a skyscraper can completely implode after a localized fuel fire burns for a few hours?

    If they’re teaching these things, I’d be very interested to know what (besides the news reports of 911) they’re basing this information on. Because it certainly would seem not to be science.

  • hdhntr

    Nick, can you please ‘do’ this one too? Thanks. hh

    In Plane Site
    Part 1

    Part 2

    What ever bother debating the Omission Commission’s Report except maybe in terms of comparing it to the real world in which we live, and in which all those people died and have died since in an unjust and unjustified war of agression.

  • NJT

    John B “But don’t you think that schools who teach kids how to build buildings would take a look at the WTC?”

    I think they would. But I don’t then conclude it’s a fact. You’re just making this assumption, and stating it in your article as if it is a given fact “Almost every engineering school in the country has either been looking into the collapse or using it as a case study.”

    I *think* they would look into it too, but I’m not running around claiming that they are and then using that claim as the foundation of my argument to discredit people who know quite a bit more than myself about the subject.

    Another one of your assumptions; “there would be no way to set it up in 8 months” – I call bullshit. The 31 story Landmark hotel was brought down with preparation that took a matter of weeks. Now we look at something with 6 X the total height and you positively conclude that “there would be no way to set it up in 8 months”? Not that this has anything to do with my contentions one way or the other, but I’m sorry; I find your assumptions faulty and any reliance on science to be entirely absent.

  • Nancy

    Terrific thread, vy interesting (not least the comments by those w/experience in demo, concrete & steel construction, etc.) – and profoundly horrific because it IS entirely credible, given the track record of the US government and the behavior/attitudes of those currently in power in this administration.

    The 3rd secret of Fatima was supposed to be something along the lines of the antichrist would be born in the ‘middle east’, but it didn’t specify the middle east of what. Let’s see, Bush was born in CT. – that’s middle of the east coast; and Cheney in Nebraska, the middle of the US. Maybe the end times are here. I could make a case for Rove being The Beast.

    Anyway, terrific (in all senses of the word) thread.

  • aj

    This will answer a lot of the questions asked in this thread.
    pbs.org wtc

    And if it did come down faster then you think it should have, maybe the air being sucked out of the top created a vacuum below.

  • NJT

    Thanks for the link aj;
    Here’s where I dispute Eagar’s analysis; “The problem was, it was such a widely distributed fire”

    To me, the video evidence does not support this contention. Didn’t the fuel run down the elevator shafts to the basement, causing the lower level explosions as reported in Chief Engineer magazine (linked above)? Or did the fuel stay on the upper floors causing intense heat leading the clips to fail as Eagar is claiming? Both??

    Where did the massive vertical columns with lengths of hundreds of feet go / how did they fail so that they were contained within a pile of rubble?

    To me the article doesn’t really answer the questions that only scale models and recreations can answer.

    I hope I’m wrong, but I believe a scale model would show that this failure mode is not possible absent explosives.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Venice:

    I’ve read Gideon Spies… good book, I have it myself.

    NJT:

    I’m not sure what they are teaching, I’ve not sat in on engineering classes at every school in the country… I do know it is being reviewed as to what happened.

    It’s fact. Get over it. Engineering schools are reviewing this stuff so either the entire engineering community of this nation is incompetent, or you have no idea what you are talking about. It’s just that simple. Period. I don’t have to post 15,000 syllabuses to make the point, it’s true. Get over it.

    Was the landmark hotel brought down in combination with running two planes into it, another plane into the Pentagon, under the eyes of the nation in real time, with the ENTIRE nation apparently (including the 9/11 commission) deceived into believeing falsehood… Yeah, I think that takes more than 8 months. You can call bullshit all you want, you’re the one full of it.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    No, no one is blaming the Jews at all…

    The Post

    Get Democrats in the room playing pretend impeachment… first order of business… blame the Jews…

    Well, it’s nice they let us know where the DNC stands on Israel.

  • SFC SKI

    Don’t forget the plane that did not make it to its target, either. Did some agency rush to a building wired with explosives and pull them all out once it realized that the cover of an airplane crash would not occur in the right place. Maybe Bush was behind blowing a big crater in the Pennsylvania landscape?

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Yeah but the “Let’s Roll” call was doctored by KKKarl Rove to make the widow THINK it was her husband that went down fighting…

    When they realized that someone else had control of the plane then they shot it down so people wouldn’t know the truth…

    Haven’t you read about Northwoods?

  • Venice-13

    Earth to John Bambenek: You’re saying “No, no one is blaming the Jews at all…”

    Hmmm.. Okay, if you were talking about blaming the Jews off this thread, well … sure … sure people are blaming the Jews (more fairly, Israel), but I thought you meant in this discussion, on this board.

    Since you you highlighted the link to that page, which contain the words of Ray McGovern (who was a CIA Intelligence Analyst for 27 years), you might want to read his next sentence that states: “Israel is not allowed to be brought up in polite conversation,” .. for fear of being labeled anti-Semitic …. of course!! I’m going to give McGovern a little credit … I mean, 27 years as a CIA intelligence Analyst … he might actually know a few things.

    I’m sure you’re an intelligent man, can you not agree that McGovern’s statement that, “Israel is not allowed to be brought up in polite conversation,” is TRUE ????? I’ll be extra stupid here and answer my own question .. Hell yes, it’s true!! G*d forbid anyone would accuse Israel of anything …. not the USS Liberty, not Jonathan Pollard, not AIPAC as a spy/lobby network, not for flouting UN Resolutions for the past 5 decades … not ANYTHING. Please tell me I’m wrong by sensing that you’re wanting to toss a red herring, and waiting to pounce on someone here who speakes critically of Israel. This Jew (ME, MYSELF) will allow anyone to say what they wish to say about anything … including Israel. Afterall, “the only democracy in the Middle East” (gag me …) should be able to withstand some sincere and/or valid criticism, should it not?

    Any “democracy” should be able to withstand criticism. I’m an American Jew, and I consider it my patriotic duty and guaranteed Constitutional right to criticize my country.

    AND … regarding your statement, “Get Democrats in the room playing pretend impeachment”

    Please be assured that if the congress was controlled by the Dems (and I ain’t no Dem), that they would not be playing “pretend” impeachment. Is it wrong to criticize our president when he’s wrong, or even to seek impeachment when his reckless policies have cost the lives of so many? When conservatives tried to take Clinton down, there was no shortage of disrespect and hatred shown him by conservatives. Of course, conservatives are the only ones who have “values”. Yeah, right!

    I don’t know who blew up the WTC or Bldg.7 …. But I certainly believe they were BLOWN UP.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    It’s not wrong to criticize the President… you don’t even have to use real facts to do it if you want.

    Just don’t expect me to take it seriously when you have a bunch of grown men acting like 4 years old playing “tea time”, complete with pretend conspiracies involving the Mossad.

    I’m not saying Israel has clean hands, but I am saying that the kneejerk response to blame Israel in these conspiracies isn’t connected to reality.

    It is most certainly NOT your patriotic duty to criticize the country, it is your patriotic duty to help create and support a society of freedom for your fellow Americans. That is not well served by cooking up crackpot schemes on how the planes flying into the WTC were illusions and George Bush took out the towers so he could pass the Patriot Act.

  • Venice-13

    I think that being critical of one’s government (no matter what country you’re in) is not just a right, but an *obligation* of the citizenry.

    “crackpot schemes” ??? Escuse me, but one man’s crackpot can be another man’s messiah.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    There is a difference between critical and delusional which has been lost by the left apparently…

    Find something REAL to be critical of… there are plenty of choices… you don’t need to make up crazy conspiracies to find things.

  • Venice-13

    Why do you suppose that these “crazy conspiracies” are so much more BELIEVABLE than the “offical” government spin?

    If 10 out of 12 people look at it and say it looks like a duck, then I can be content to believe it’s a duck. From reading the postings here, I’m thinking it’s a duck.

  • Karl Jackson

    >>>“Get Democrats in the room playing pretend impeachment… first order of business… blame the Jews…”

    Who gives a damn about the Democrats? I don’t. They and the Republicans are two faces of the same coin. As far as the “pretend impeachment” goes, the image goes through my mind of hypocrite Henry Hyde leading that pompous pack of clowns to remove Clinton. Over nothing.
    Frikken Jerry Springer episode. Yeah, that’s American politics.
    And it’s gobbled up by the same stupid sort that think tv “wrassling” is real.
    It’s so easy to sell them on a lie. Some of us try to spread 9/11 truth, and what we’re up against is people who thought there really were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and still suspect that they will be found. These people don’t even remember Scott Ritter, because they have the attention span of gerbils. We’ve been lied to big time, and the liars continue lying, and the gerbils continue believing, curled deep inside George W. Gere’s butt.
    It’s amazing.
    And the gerbils think that anyone who sees otherwise is a “liberal”.
    Which is kinda like “terrorist”; a word distorted so badly that it’s meaning is hard to define. And I’m probably more conservative than you.
    Crap, there’s another word that’s been totally borked beyond comprehension. People think that this administration is “conservative” these days, and I roll my eyes.
    See where we’re at in this web of horseshit? Do you?
    But back to the subject.
    The Israelis.
    Ever read about the five dancing Israelis that filmed the towers going down? They were deported, and the “moving company” that they worked for folded and disappeared within a week. I was serving in the US Army in Germany when the La Belle discotheque was bombed in Berlin. Intelligence told us that Libya was behind it, but the code wasn’t quite right. We attacked Libya, and I was rolled out and waiting to head to Libya. Turns out that the radio intelligence was recieved from radio repeaters that Mossad agents had planted in Tripoli. One of the agents who did it later wrote a book detailing the operation.
    “By way of secrecy shall you do war” is the Mossad’s logo, and this was just one example that I cite because I was personally involved. Israel’s schtick is to get others to fight their wars through chicanery.
    This is true, but the gerbils will (as anticipated and planned) start screaming their usual rallying cry of “anti-semitism”. What a crock, and a chickenshit tactic. Drop the blinders.

  • NJT

    “I do know it is being reviewed as to what happened.
    It’s fact. Get over it. Engineering schools are reviewing this stuff so either the entire engineering community of this nation is incompetent, or you have no idea what you are talking about.”

    You have not shown me any examples of engineering schools “reviewing this stuff” – as far as i can tell, that is wishful thinking on your part. You continue to make this assertion. But the schools are all starting with your same assumption that “the planes caused the collapse” so therefore they are NOT really “reviewing this stuff”

    Go on with your bullshit, you are obviously an expert at THAT.

  • Karl Jackson

    >>>“There is a difference between critical and delusional which has been lost by the left apparently…”

    C’mon, John. This may be your board, but I’m still gonna ask you to pull your head out. Or just go on assuming that the people who see major problems with the 9/11 story are all “liberals” (hey, good a strawman as any).
    Have you ever heard of Karl Schwarz? You may find his articles interesting.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Venice-13:

    I hardly consider the comments section of Blogcritics to be an accurate cross-section of mankind. I find the government “spin” more believable than the conspiracies at this point because of the unaddressed objections I have above. If it was a controlled demolition how were they so brilliant to deceive everyone yet stupid enough to blow up a completely unrelated building?

    It wasn’t the Bush admin, because they couldn’t pull it off inside 8 months… no way. They’d have to find hijackers willing to die, or at least fake the phone calls so that their LOVED ONES couldn’t tell the difference. They’d have to smuggle the explosives in. They’d have to suppress so much that even one person coming out would spoil it.

    Nixon couldn’t keep a wiretap under wraps… how could

    Bush keep something like killing 3000 people in broad daylight under wraps?

    Karl:

    It was a masterful spin… but in the end perjury is a big deal. Try lying under oath in a court room, see how it goes for you. Relevant testimony or not. Do you know why I don’t believe your theories… gnosticism. I’m immediately skeptical of anyone who proclaims the rest of the world is so completely stupid and incapable of seeing reality and that they belong to this elite company that knows “the truth”.

    NJT:

    I admit it. You are right. After 9/11 every CE department in the country decided to teach pottery instead.

    http://news.uns.purdue.edu/html4ever/020910.Sozen.Pentagon.html

    http://scholar.google.com/url?sa=U&q=http://www.sideplate.com/pdf/MABS_Abstract.pdf

    And of course there’s the MIT study.

    That’s just quick stuff from google, since most academic journals aren’t quite on Google yet, I’d rather use Lexis, and this is only published papers. It does not include class assignments, often which aren’t on the web. But you are wrong. Period. Wholly without merit whatsoever. I’m not going to waste my time proving common knowledge. The sky is blue, I’m not going to provide citations for you on whether it is or whether it’s an international zionist conspiracy.

    Karl:

    There are some loonies on the Right too… but you don’t see the GOP having make-believe hearings in Congress.

  • Karl Jackson

    >>>“Karl:

    It was a masterful spin… but in the end perjury is a big deal. Try lying under oath in a court room, see how it goes for you. Relevant testimony or not.”

    I couldn’t agree with you more, John. Yes, lying under oath is a serious matter. I wonder what Bush would say under oath about the Downing Street memo. Do you wonder why both Bush and Cheney refused to testify to the 911 Comission under oath? And only together, and only under the stipulation that no recordings or transcripts were made?

    >>>“Do you know why I don’t believe your theories… gnosticism. I’m immediately skeptical of anyone who proclaims the rest of the world is so completely stupid and incapable of seeing reality and that they belong to this elite company that knows “the truth”.

    Hardly an “elite company”, and nobody is claiming that the rest of the world is “stupid”. Just uninformed. Above, throughout this thread, are many referenced facts, that 90% of the public are probably unaware of. And yet they are true. Ask random people about the three buildings that collapsed in NYC that day, and most of them will say “huh?”. Are they stupid? Of course not.
    But when has CNN, Fox, MSNBC or any of the other mainstream news sources actually presented information or asked questions about Building 7? Either for or against the official story?
    So they don’t know about it, unless they happen to remember the actual news coverage that afternoon.
    Another example is the statement that Morgan Reynolds made; the very topic of this thread. Agree or disagree, this was a hard-hitting statement from a known Washington figure (as opposed to a freak on a street corner). It was a UPI newswire. And yet, do a search for any mention of his statements at all on any of the above listed news sites.
    You will not find it.

    “Elite few who know”? No. We’re just the people asking some hard questions.

  • Karl Jackson

    Again, John: I am not somebody who “knows”. I was not in NYC that morning, I was not in DC, I was not in Shanksville PA. I saw none of these things happen, except on television, just like most of us. But I do know that the things which can be fairly considered as facts (references, multiple witnesses, physical evidence) raise serious questions, that every man, woman and child in America should be asking. And when they are asked, they are brushed aside with the “conspiracy theory” sweeper, or plastered over by bogus “exposes” which only convince those who haven’t done their homework, such as the one that Popular Mechanics magazine recently did. The “research editor” for that article, by the way, was the cousin of our current Homeland Security czar. Did that fact have anything to do with his “research”? I don’t know, how could I know?
    The oft-cited Snopes article “debunking” the “conspiracy theories” about the Pentagon strike talks about the jetliner impacted on the lawn before hitting the building, thus dissipating much kinetic energy, and probably averting even worse damage. They cite CNN and eyewitnesses. Further below that, they show a photo taken after the crash. This photo shows a pristine lawn.
    Is it possible for a 100 ton widebody jetliner to impact a lawn at 400mph without leaving a mark? I don’t know.
    I’m neither an airliner crash expert nor a lawn expert.
    But I am an honest man, and I can’t help it if my eyebrow raises a bit.
    Doesn’t yours?
    I do know that minutes after the crash, FBI officials confiscated CCTV video which would have shown the approaching jetliner from the CITGO station near the Pentagon, and from the Sheraton hotel. And despite several FOIA requests, they refuse to release them. I would like to know why.
    Wouldn’t you?

    After all, we’re the Good Guys. The victims. We were attacked by Islamic terrorists. Right?
    What’s to hide?

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Karl:

    Bush never WAS under oath to lie. But even Joe Wilson admits that it wasn’t lying… the sincerely BELIEVED they were telling the truth. (And as an aside, it’s the same truth almost every government in the world including the United Nations affirmed up until the point Bush started thinking about invasion). You may be wrong, but that doesn’t make it a lie. That aside, he’s never been under oath in a courtroom. That, and the Downing Street Memo proves nothing. It is the perceptions of one individual not connected with the US government.

    “…because they have the attention span of gerbils”, your comment. Sorry I don’t interpret that as praise of the intelligence of the common man. You aren’t asking hard questions, more often than not, you are making hard-to-sell conclusions. If you were asking “Why did WTC 7 collapse?” or “Why Didn’t Bush/Cheney testify under oath?” That’s one thing. The questions have spawned from the conclusion that the buildings were brought down by controlled demolition. That’s not a question, that’s a conclusion.

    I can understand why the government, quite innocently, would hold videos and evidence and not release them under FOIA. I don’t see it as a sign of guilt or innocence at this point. If I were in the government, I would want all the evidence analyzed and solid conclusions made BEFORE the public got their hands on it and went apeshit. Thta doesn’t mean it is their motivation, but it could be. Most objections made have alternative and benign answers, they may not look good but it doesn’t mean it isn’t good… yet.

    I’ve read the conspiracy theories, they are all at this point internally inconsistent. Some blame Bush saying he gained… he didn’t. If heads of state are going to try to pull that stunt they want some PERSONAL gain. Bush, 10 years from now, will have no personal gain because the Patriot Act was passed. If there is 2B in a Swiss Bank Account in his name, then he’s gained. If he dissolves the Constitution, then he’s gained. I find the Bush-to-blame conspiracy lacking.

    After 9/11 the Israel-to-blame conspiracy appeared to have SOME merit becuase there might be a potential for gain. I don’t think they ever tried to and certainly doesn’t appear that they have. So I don’t see an Israel play here either.

    At the end of the day the conspiracy theories don’t give a good answer for who, for the phone calls made to family that were sent out, for the 4th plane, etc. When I see a solid theory then we’ll talk. At least the government story is internally consistent.

  • Venice-13

    Wow, John Bambenek … You don’t want ask questions and or see facts. I wasn’t looking for a “cross section of mankind”, but I will admit that folks who aren’t fed the mainstream media’s government spin … you know, like the rest of “mankind” … are a lot less likely to not buy the bull sh*t and lies as folks who believe everything they see or hear on FOX or CNN, or read in one of Murdoch’s rags.

    You’re stuck on saying that the Bush administration “couldn’t pull it off inside 8 months” …. WHY NOT?? Security was reduced at the WTC prior to the attacks … there had been a “power down” … Where are you getting 8 months? It would NOT take 8 months to smuggle in explosives, why should it?

    A surprising number of people ARE incapable of seeing reality. Once they’ve accept as “reality” all the crap that promoted by the administration’s spin machines. Some of our popular media won’t even repeat a story until the government says it’s okay. The media has degenerated, and they’re not asking the difficult questions, they’re not asking ANY questions as they should be.

    To not have the answers is one thing, but to not even ask the questions is pathetic.

    9/11 – The Basic Questions

    1. Why didn’t jets intercept the airliners since they had numerous warnings of terrorist attacks?

    2. Why did Ashcroft stop flying commercial airlines, citing an unidentified “threat” in July 2001?

    3. Why did FEMA lie about their presence in New York on 9/11?

    4. Why didn’t the Secret Service hustle Dubya out of the classroom?

    5. Why did George H.W. Bush meet bin Laden’s brother on 9/11?

    6. Why did passengers or crewmembers on three of the flights all use the term boxcutters?

    7. Where are the flight recorders?

    8. Why were the FISA warrants discontinued?

    9. How did Bush see the first plane crash on live camera?

    10 Why was security meeting scheduled for 9/11 cancelled by WTC management on 9/10?

    11. How did they come up with the “culprits” so quickly?

    12. How did they find the terrorist’s cars at the airports so quickly?

    13. Why did Shrub dissolve the Bin Laden Task Force?

    14. Why the strange pattern of debris from Flight 93?

    15. How extensive was the relationship between the Taliban, the ISI and the CIA?

    16. What exactly was the role of Henry Kissinger at UNOCAL?

    17. When was it decided to cancel building a pipeline from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan to Pakistan?

    18. Why did the FBI in 1996 close the files to investigate Osama bin Laden’s relatives in Washington?

    19. Why did .Bush stop inquiries into terrorist connections of the Bin Laden family in early 2001?

    20. Who made the decision to have John O’Neill stop investigating Al-qeada accounts?

    21. Who gave the decision to give him a security job at the World Trade Center?

    22. Did John O’Neill meet anyone of the FEMA in the night of September 10th?

    23. What about media reports that hijackers bought tickets for flights scheduled after Sept. 11?

    24. Why did none of the 19 hijackers appear on the passenger lists?

    25. Why would devout Muslims frequent bars, drink alcoholic beverages and leave their bibles?

    26. Why would the hijackers use credit cards and allow drivers licenses with photos to be zeroxed?

    27. Why did the hijackers force passengers to call relatives?

    28. How did the hijackers change the flight plan without law enforcement or the military try to stop them?

    29. How did a hijackers passport miraculously appear near the WTC? Who found it and what time?

    30. How could the FBI distinguish between “regular” Muslims and hijacker Muslims on those flights?

    31. Why was there not one “innocent” Muslim on board any of these flights?

    32. Did someone go through the passenger lists looking for Muslim names and label them as hijackers?

    MOHAMMED ATTA

    33. Did the Florida police provide information that Atta was searched because of 1) an expired Visa, 2) driving a car without a license, 3) because of an incident at Miami Airport?

    34. Why did Atta leave his bag at the airport and the employees didn’t put it on board?

    35. Who found his bag? How can we be sure it it was his bag?

    36. Why did Atta place a video “how to fly planes”, a uniform and his last will into his bag, knowing that he would commit suicide?

    37. Why did Atta leave his drivers license in a rental car?

    38. When did Atta train on a flight simulator?

    39. Did Atta leave the US while in training and then return?

    40. Why did Atta decide to study at Opa Locka, a famous hub of 6 Navy training bases and includes government partners like U.S. Coast Guard Air Station, Police (Miami-Dade) Aviation Unit?

    41. Why was Atta allowed to study since he was stopped by the police for driving without a license and also for violating his visa?

    THE BLACK BOXES AND CRASH VIDEO

    42. Why were the Black Boxes never recovered ?

    43. Why didn’t the FBI release the air traffic controller’s protocols?

    44. Why did the FBI not release the Flight Data Recorder info?

    THE HIJACKERS

    45. How did the FBI receive a tip from a passenger who boarded a different plane and reached his destination safely that he had a confrontation with two ME men at the Logan airport in Boston?

    46. Who tipped the FBI to storm the Westin Hotel in Boston on September 12th?

    47. Where did the photos of all 19 hijackers come from?

    48. How were all hijackers identified just 2 days after the attack?

    49. Why did all 19 names not appear on the passenger list 2 days after the hijacker list was released?

    50. Why do none of the names appear on the passenger lists UA and AA gave to CNN?

    51. How could the hijackers disable the defense systems?

    52. Why did the FBI ignore Bin Laden’s family, who left the United States without further investigation?

    53. What about the supposed hijackers who are still alive?

    54. Was there a reason to change the list of the original 19 hijackers?

    55. What happened to Ayub Ali Khan and Mohammed Jaweed Azmath, who have been in jail since September 2001, because of possession of box cutters on a train? Who gave the tip to arrest them?

    56. Why did it take 4 months before Ramsi Binalschibhs name was mentioned, since he was a good friend of Mohammad Atta and lived in his apartment in Hamburg?

    57. Why did it take 4 months until December 11 to charge Zacarias Moussaoui for the 9/11 attacks when his case was known worldwide for months, but not mentioned in the American media?

    58. Whatever happened with Lotfi Raissi, who was arrested in UK for teaching the terrorist pilots?

    59. What is the current status of the investigation of Mamoun Darkazanli Import-Export-Company in Hamburg and Al Taqwa Management Organisation in Lugano?

    60. Why was Richard Reid able to enter the Paris airport twice and who paid for his hotel?

    61. Who hired Zacarias Massoui to learn how to fly passenger jets in the United States?

    62. Why did the FBI or CIA fail to interrogate him between August and December 2001?

    BIN LADEN

    63. Did the CIA monitor Bin Laden in 1998 with the help of 15 Afghan agents, paid $1,000/ month?

    64. Where are these agents? Was Johnny “Mike” Spann one? Was John Walker Lindh one?

    65. Is an Afghan agent a member of the ISI? Is an Afghan agent working for Bin Laden?

    66. When was the first time Tenet mentioned the Al-Qaeda group to any member of the Senate?

    67. Why did the Pentagon release a new video version or translation of the Bin Laden Home video?

    68. Why it was released only 8 hours after translation by the German magazine MONITOR on December ?

    69. Why were the four translators prior US-Government workers?

    70. When was the Bin Laden Home Video found and who found it?

    71. Who found the video if Northern Alliance and US troops had not yet arrived in Kandahar or Jahalabad?

    72. Does the timestamp on the Bin Laden video indicate that it was found two weeks after it was produced?

    73. Why was the public not informed who found the video and when?

    74. Why according to MONITOR magazine, were the most controversial statements translated incorrectly?

    75. Why was the video released?

    76. Who gave the final decision to release it?

    77. Why is the Bin Laden video of June 2001 in which he praised the attack, available on the Internet?

    78. What about Bin Laden’s statements on Al-Jazeera in June 2001 about the bombing of USS Cole, which are similar to the statements on the November 2001 home video?

    79. Why did Bin Laden state in Umman Magazine in Sept. 2001, that he was not involved in the WTC?

    80. Is Bin Laden still on the payroll of the CIA or ISI?

    81. Did the Bin Laden Group Inc. help build ToraBora with the CIA?

    82. What was the purpose of the meeting with General Pervez Musharraf in May 2001?

    83. Why was a statement released that Al-Khalifa bin Laden, who is not the mother of Bin Laden, had a telephone call with Bin Laden on September 9, rather than Alia Ghanem, his mother? Why did Alia Ghanem say she did not believe he planned the attack?

  • Karl Jackson

    >>>“At least the government story is internally consistent.”

    Any well-told lie is internally consistant. And I’m not proposing a “theory”, I’m asking questions. The poster above just asked some very good ones.
    Tell us, how are these questions answered within the framework of your “internally consistant” official conspiracy theory?

    What would Bush have to gain? I’m not so sure that Bush was the driving force behind this (in fact, I doubt it).
    But let’s see… we’re in Afghanistan, we’re in Iraq. The big government contractors who financed Bush’s reelection are getting very wealthy, make no mistake. We’ve rushed the Homeland Security Bill and the “Patriot Act” through the house, destroyed the system of checks and balances, and shifted more power to the Executive Branch. How’s that for starters?
    Search for historical quotes about the coming New World Order by the likes of HW Bush, Kissinger, Michael Rockefeller. Learn the context. Examine the PNAC paper “Rebuilding America’s Defenses”, and note the claim that in order to quickly mobilize the forces necessary to build a Pax Americana, a “catalyzing event, like a new Pearl Harbor” would be needed.
    This was delivered on September the 11th, 2001.

    All that, and you’re asking what chump change might’ve landed in Bush’s personal money coffer? Please.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    8 months is about the time when Bush was inaugurated and 9/11 give or take.

    Sure, they could have blown up the building, but there was much much more to it than just demolishing the building.

    They had to get planes, they had to either fake the phone calls from family members about to die calling their loved ones, or get people willing to die to hijack the planes. They had to plan the whole thing, it wasn’t something cooked up one night and started and completed the next day. They would have had to acquire and ship the munitions used. They would have had to study and place the precisely. They would have had to reduce not only security at the WTC, but reduce the fly rate of domestic Air national Guard jets (a policy in place much longer than 8 months). The would have to do this in such a way as to identify, train, and keep quiet dozens if not hundreds of conspirators.

    If Nixon couldn’t keep a wiretap a secret, how in the world could the government keep THIS a secret. Someone would have talked. Where’s the insider? Where’s deep throat

    Question 51? What defense systems.

    Most of the questions involving the CIA involvement with OBL in Afghanistan is irrelevant. It’s not an unknown model where we train insurgents to keep an unfriendly power at bay (or overthrow the sitting government) then leave them high and dry (and pissed). Bay of Pigs anyone? That has nothing to do with 9/11.

    How did we know so much so quickly? Not sure. Why were their inconsistencies in passenger lists? No idea. So me the actual documentation and we’ll talk, not obscure references I have no hope to find. Show me CNN’s passenger list information and I’ll compare.

    I’ve seen this PNAC reference before so I took a look just now… the quote:

    “Further, the process of transformation,
    even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some
    catastrophic and catalyzing event – like a new Pearl Harbor.”

    That doesn’t say a new Pearl Harbor was necessary but that it would speed up the process… a process, I might add, which hasn’t really happened according to what I understand to be PNAC’s objectives. As far as checks and balances… please. The system is there and works just fine. It just so happened that a good 90+% of the country wanted those things, so just because the President pushed, doesn’t mean the system broke down. In fact, Congress is whittling away at the Patriot Act as we speak.

    DHS didn’t add any new governmental power… it just consolidated it, bloated it, and wasted a butt load of money.

    You may have a point that Bush wasn’t responsible, and that’s my point… even assuming this was a conspiracy, there is no way Bush COULD have been responsible. But that’s the million dollar question… who?

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Poll:

    Who was responsible for 9/11?

    a) George Bush
    b) Halliburton
    c) PNAC
    d) Bill Clinton
    e) The Mossad
    f) The 9/11 hijackers

    Vote now.

  • wahoo

    All of the above.

  • Venice-13

    Here’s an article by Barry Chamish. Chamish is an Israeli researcher, author
    and journalist. He first gained worldwide notoriety in his coverage of the
    Yitzhak Rabin assassination conspiracy.

    PRACTISING FOR THE WTC/PENTAGON BLASTS IN ISRAEL

    Click the link to open it in its own window.

    # # # # # # # # # #

    And, especially for you John Bambenek, a great essay on Conspiracy Theories:

    Special ‘Conspiracy Theory’ Edition

    Click the link to open it in its own window.

  • Venice-13

    …. Continued from above posting:

    Here are the links to the continuing pages of the essay on Conspiracy Theories
    (Clicking a link will open it in its own window):

    Special ‘Conspiracy Theory’ Edition, Part II

    ‘Conspiracy Theory’ Edition Part III/GWB Midterm Report

  • Eric Olsen

    wow, you guys really are concerned about this stuff

  • JR

    Poll:

    Who was responsible for 9/11?

    a) George Bush
    b) Halliburton
    c) PNAC
    d) Bill Clinton
    e) The Mossad
    f) The 9/11 hijackers

    WHERE’S SLASH!!!

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Voting still open!

    Who was responsible for 9/11?

    a) George Bush
    b) Halliburton
    c) PNAC
    d) Bill Clinton
    e) The Mossad
    f) The 9/11 hijackers

  • Nancy

    A, B, & F. Altho, I should actually say instead of Bush, Cheney.

  • Eric Olsen

    G) Randolf and Mortimer Duke

  • http://dumpsterbust.blogspot.com Eric Berlin

    Turn those machines back on!

    Turn those machines back on!

  • Eric Olsen

    exactly

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    LOL @ Comment 249

    Awesome…

    Me?

    I blame France.

  • NJT

    John Bambanek wrote “I admit it. You are right. After 9/11 every CE department in the country decided to teach pottery instead.”

    So either they are now “teaching” (no longer “looking into”) but actually teaching specifically the WTC collapse, as opposed to the normal material they had previously tought back when I was in engineering school and they had things other than the WTC collapse to teach. Either that, or the only other option is pottery.

    http://news.uns.purdue.edu/html4ever/020910.Sozen.Pentagon.html

    This is about the pentagon; my complaint is with the WTC collapse scenario.

    http://scholar.google.com/url?sa=U&q=http://www.sideplate.com/pdf/MABS_Abstract.pdf

    Is this even from a school?

    “And of course there’s the MIT study.”

    Wherein Eagar admits that at best his proposed failure scenario is “likely” but you know more than Eagar, right? His scenario is absolutely the way it happened. if you’re to be believed.

    So you still haven’t shown me where schools are now “teaching” or “looking into” the WTC collapse but you’re making my argument analogous to the claim that CE schools have taken up pottery instead?

    If I understand you’re argument at the top of this, you would have us believe that every CE school in the nation is investigating the collapse with an eye towards disproving the official version (either that or making urns), and because none have come forward to contest it, this is proof of the official verion’s veracity. Can you see a flaw in this logic?

    There are a lot of experts who have questioned the official version. But of course they are all crazy liberals, because John Bambanek said so.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    NJT:

    You admit it’s a pretty solid assumption to make, but then pretend it’s a lie.

    Tell you what… give me a grant, I’ll research every engineering school in the nation and produce a report…

    Otherwise get over it… you admit it’s a valid assumption, that’s good enough. You’ve admitted I’m right.

    Move on.

    Get back to blaming the Mossad already.

  • wahoo

    While there was great mourning around the world on 9/11

    There was dancing in the streets of Israel

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    So it appears that most people who think 9/11 was staged DO believe it was Israel that whacked us instead of OBL…

  • wahoo

    Not staged

    Not whacked

    But immensely enjoyed

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Let us also remember they have a weeklong festival each year to commemorate the event. They party so hard even the hasidics are known to get a little hammered.

  • Nancy

    This being the case, why then are we continuing to subsidize/back them almost exclusively? Why not yank their US handouts? IMO they’ve proved over and over they’re no allies of ours, with all the spying, double-crossing, and downright hostile attitude and non-cooperation they’ve displayed over the past several years. Surely they all don’t have that many relatives in the US to influence vote-happy congressmen?

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Nancy:

    Fair question, one which I don’t have a strong opinion on. It doesn’t seem like a relationship that bears much fruit for us at least.

  • wahoo

    Not much fruit indeed

    The United States gives Israel our latest weapons and technology

    Israel sells China what we give them

    John, what do you think of that?

  • Venice-13

    WAIT BAMBENEK !!!

    You do a gawd-awful, and blatantly conspicuous job of diverting attention towards your own BS and away from everyone elses comments.

    About your “POLE” …. you didn’t include “IRAQ” on your list of “Who was responsible for 9/11?”

    Just this past weekend (in his radio address Saturday, 6-21-05), Bush defended the war in Iraq by telling Americans the United States was forced into war because of the Sept 11 terror strikes.

    Bush said,

    “We went to war because we were attacked, and we are at war today because there are still people out there who want to harm our country and hurt our citizens,”

    BAMBENEK, I think your pal, Bush, would want you to put “Iraq” on your list.

    And I would suggest you replace “The Mossad” with either “AIPAC” or “Israel’s incredibly powerful influence on American foreign policy”

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Wahoo:

    I have never been a huge fan of Israel. It doesn’t follow that I believe they should be wiped out, but I have my skepticisms.

    Venice:

    Your vote for Israel is noted.

  • Nancy

    My comment had less to do w/fingering Isreal for 9/11 than questioning why the US policy has always tipped towards them so unlaterally and unfairly – a policy that has created in main part our problematic relations w/the arab/muslim world today – especially when they treat us just as badly as they do everyone else that they consider an enemy. It’s not that they are the only source for airspace etc. in the area, nor that the top administration have long, close ties w/them like the Saudis, nor that they’re an important source of anything we need or want, like oil. Yet year after year and decade after decade, we put up with their lying, double-dealing, spying, tech-stealing, and general ingratitude, and even pay them lavishly for it! This is insane. Is it guilt for WWII and the holocaust or something? If so, what are we guily of? Is it because they’re a Jewish state, and the various administrations are afraid to alienate American Jews? That can’t be, because most of the Jews I know don’t like Israel or Israelis, who treat them as rudely as they do everyone else, and who consider them Americans first (to be conned and taken advantage of, according to what some have told me) and Jews a very distant second or not at all. So what exactly is the hold Israel has over American foreign policy? I ask because I am ignorant of this area.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Nancy:

    The last part was directed at Venice, not you.

    As far as why we treat Israel the way we do, I don’t know… it doesn’t make much sense to me either.

  • Nancy

    Oh, I know it wasn’t directed at me; I was asking because this thread seems to have attracted people who sound like they may have some sort of notion why things are. Thanks.

  • Patriot

    Every American should read the book by former Congressman Paul Findley who served for 11-terms in the United States Congress. The book is, “They Dare to Speak Out”. This book catalogues a sad litany of the intimidation of our politicians who dare not criticize Israel in any way. Even a single criticism, on or off the record, serious or in jest, is sufficient to raise a million or so dollars from the American-Zionist Lobby to defeat such an upstart in the next election cycle.

    Politicians are not the only targets of the American-Zionist Lobby. One of the most flagrant violations of First Amendment rights occurred when actress Vanessa Redgrave was denied the right to perform with the Boston Symphony Orchestra after speaking out in support of the Palestinian cause . The reason was that the American-Zionist Lobby blacklisted her because she supported the Palestinians. The Boston Symphony Orchestra canceled a contract with Redgrave because she showed support for the Palestine Liberation Organization.

    Most of the rest of the world does not support our Middle East policy. They see it as a biased policy based on domestic political presures. The United States, relying on a “super power” status, has ignored most of the rest of the world, and has gone forward like a blind cyclops.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    As a bet peave, that was NOT a First Amendment violation because there was no government agency involved. Private entities are free to discriminate what messages and messengers they want.

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    So the first amendment to the U.S. Constitution, prohibiting the government from restricting the speech of individuals, somehow dictates that the Boston Symphony Orchestra be required to perform with Vanessa Redgrave? Funny idea about the 1st amendment you’ve got there.

    Incidentally, Findley is an anti-Semite. Not because he doesn’t like Israel — that’s allowed — but because he supports militant Islamists and has appeared at conferences dedicated to the idea of eradicating Israel from the planet.

    It can be considered a shame, I guess, that someone should discredit his message by getting mixed up with such unsavory hateful characters. If, that is, you find his message credible at all.

  • Patriot

    Redgrave’s contract was broken because of what she believed and by what she said.

    Technically, it was not a violation of the Constitution but the broken contract itself was a breach of the law and a breach of good faith if nothing else.

    The point is that the Zionist lobby aggressively black-listed her to breach her contract because of her political views. Is that the American way, or the Zionist way?

    Findley’s book lists many intimidations and black-listings of politicians who dared to criticize Israel in any way. This intimidation is real — but you want to pretend it doesn’t exist.

    For example, just let a Congressman question the amount of money sent to Israel each year and see how much money flows from the Zionists to a challenger at the next election cycle. And if there is no challenger — the Zionist lobby will find one.

    You change the subject and harp on other issues to obfuscate the reality of what is in Findley’s book — and then try to black-list him, as any good Zionist would do.

    You cannot find anything in Findley’s book that is not factual. But facts that don’t fit your preconceived notions are summarily discounted by you.

    And Zionism is a political ideology, like conservatism or liberalism. Zionism does not define the Jewish identity. So anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism. Many Jews are opposed to the state of Israel and its Zionist ideology.

    When you call Findley an anti-Semite, you are trying to black-list him by this declaration. You do this because you have no other argument against what is in his book. It doesn’t matter to you whether what is in his book is true.

    And — if you want to call him by anything that is close to reality — call him Anti-Zionist — just don’t try to black-list him by calling him an anti-Semite.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    For a Zionist conspiracy that is frothing at the mouth to silence any opposition, there seems to be alot of people the Mossad is overlooking…

  • Patriot

    Is that the best you can offer?

    Pretty weak response.

  • Venice-13

    NOBODY can survive after criticizing Israel … Check this out!

    Dean Condemns ‘Anti-Semitic Literature’ ? (link will open in its own window:

    Dean was never a real anti-war candidate, because he approved the war on Afghanistan (and probably the wars preceding Iraq and Afghanistan). And then with Iraq, after the war was “won”, he went along with the occupation and the attitude that “We are there so we have to stay the course”. Not my kind of peace person. Now he’s going along with Rep. Barnie Frank in painting Ray McGovern as an anti-semite. He knows that criticism of Israel can end his political career. He’s a coward. I wanna puke.

  • Venice-13

    Hey Bambenek, please don’t vote for me, or I’ll start calling you a “Republican”!

    I wasn’t going to vote in your poll, but since you’re “noting” (a Diebold term?) my vote … I’ll pick PNAC with Israel complicit.

  • Patriot

    Americans who yell “anti-Semitism” at the first sound of valid criticism of Zionist policy — are people who want to shut down debate. They have no valid answer to valid criticism of policies that favor THE POLITICAL ASPIRATIONS OF ZIONISM — even when those interests conflict with the best interests of the United States.

    In this event what is being done is, without question, “ANTI-AMERICAN”.

    So before anyone uses the anti-Semitic epithet, keep in mind that if what you are trying to do is shut down debate on matters vital to the United States that conflict with the interests of ANY other country — you can rightly be called ANTI-AMERICAN.

  • SFC SKI

    People who lay all the problems of the Middle East on the doorstep of Israel and US support for it, at teh same time not examining or even admitting to the dysfunctional processes at work by the Arab governments there, are not really looking at the whole issue.

  • Patriot

    Tell me more SKI…

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Patriot:

    No one is yelling anti-semitism at a criticism of “Zionist” policy… they are saying anti-semitism because of

    1) The use of the term zionism
    2) The theory you espouse that Israel controls the world
    3) That any criticism of Israel is shut down, despite the fact you are still mouthing it

    SFC:

    Don’t you realize, it’s all Israel’s fault. The poor Arabs were fine until they took over the holy land.

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    So Patriot says that even when a man appears at seminars calling for the complete elimination of Israel and the extinction of all Jews, that’s not necessarily anti-Semitism, but rather anti-Zionism. And further, I’m clearly a Zionist when I suggest that it might be simplistic to trust the factual accuracy of the insane frothings of a rabid Jew-hater. I wonder what it would take, exactly, for Patriot to recognize someone as a “real” anti-Semite. Would they have to actually murder a Jewish person? If that person was a member of the military, would that eliminate the anti-Semitism charge? If that person was a member of the government?

    As I mentioned, it’s fine to question Israeli policies. Lots of people do, all the time, with no consequences. But Findley goes way beyond that.

    Incidentally, Findley should be further discredited as time has shown that his unwavering support for Arafat was a profound mistake. After Arafat’s death, real progress has been made for Palestinian rights. Perhaps just because Israel’s favorite excuse was removed, or perhaps because — as many people reported for years — Arafat was himself the real obstacle for peace. In any case, in the wake of his death, various U.S. officials, including President Bush, spoke very strongly against Sharon and Israeli policies and have pushed hard for peace and compromise, all of which is happening. That makes a double-refutation of Findley’s cause, since there doesn’t seem to have been any sharp retaliation against Bush for his negative statements about Israel’s policies.

    I have never wanted to shut down debate; I would like to have a debate with someone who can manage to keep themselves from spouting racist nonsense, though. When Findley claims his electoral defeat by Durbin was the result of Zionist lobbying, I wonder how that’s possible. There simply aren’t enough Jewish people in his district to make a difference. Are American gentiles so stupid that they’ll believe whatever Zionist lobbyists claim? Or was Findley defeated because people saw him as the inferior candidate?

    I can understand bitterness at an electoral defeat. And honing in on a source of your opponent’s funding is natural. But it’s worth nothing that this happens all the time by all sorts of lobbyists, but only the folks that write books about Jews get invited to speak at anti-American conferences and have their material reprinted on so-called white-supremacist websites and so on.

    Try to stay on-focus, Patriot. The subjects at hand is who or what knocked down the WTC towers.

  • Patriot

    I did not start the thread I am on.

    But I am focused on what are America’s best interests.

    Whether on 9/11 or the Iraq war or the Middle East in general.

  • SFC SKI

    Speaking of who knocked down the WTC:
    http://nyobserver.com/pages/frontpage1.asp

    Good quote: “a group of tables set up on the sidewalk by the Islamic Thinkers Society, a local group of militant Islamists. On the tables… signs bearing messages like “Your Terrorists Are Our Heroes.”

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    It’s obvious that Phillip is in bed with the world zionist conspiracy.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    SFC:

    Funny… they still come here in droves though for the opportunity America provides…

  • SFC SKI

    It’s another Jewish plot, get the extremists out of the ME, and they will be less of a threat to Israel.

  • Patriot

    Who is they?

  • Patriot

    Yeah — get the extremists out of the ME, and they will be less of a threat to Israel.

    Put them in our country.

  • SFC SKI

    Clever, isn’t it?

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    So the Mossad plot is to turn the US into a Syrian satellite state?

  • Venice-`3

    Hello Phillip Winn,

    Interesting … and not surprising, you would state a bunch of things that “Patriot” said … which he, in fact, DID NOT SAY.

    As a Jew with relatives there, I have made dozens of trips to Israel. Anyone who has been there with their eyes open has experienced “racism” by Israelis. Indeed I have.

    Interestingly, because of the fear (literally) of persecution and proven potential for destruction of entire political careers here in the U.S., you will find more and more open criticism of Israel within Israel.

    In your comment, you use “rabid Jew-hater”, and … of course … that’s nothing to call the ADL (because they’re not interested) or anyone else about.

    ANYONE criticizing Israel gets slapped with the “anti-Semite” label. ANYONE!!

    It has, for many years, been a tactic of those who seek to silence open debate and discussion of U.S. Middle East policy to accuse critics of Israel of “anti-Semitism.”

    Can I get an Amen?

  • Patriot

    AMEN!

    AMEN!

    AMEN!

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Gee, I would think that siting in a coffee shop and getting blown up by a bomb laced with nails would lead one to jump to conclusions about the nationality doing it…

    Sure, some people may use the anti-semitism label… but sometimes you need to call an antisemite and antisemite.

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    Venice, if you’re going to call me out by name, try to read what I’ve written and respond to it. That might stop you from not making foolish mistakes.

    For example, I stated in comment 269 that Findley was an anti-Semite and gave examples of why I labeled him as such. Not because he criticized Israel, but for specific reasons. Patriot in comment 270 attempted to label me — incorrectly — as a Zionist, and defended Findley.

    So in comment 279, when I said “So Patriot says that even when a man appears at seminars calling for the complete elimination of Israel and the extinction of all Jews, that’s not necessarily anti-Semitism, but rather anti-Zionism. And further, I’m clearly a Zionist when I suggest that it might be simplistic to trust the factual accuracy of the insane frothings of a rabid Jew-hater.” I was speaking factually. I had outlined Findley’s appearances at conferences, and Patriot did respond saying that it is anti-Zionism, not anti-Semitism. He also labeled me as Zionist. All true factual statements, clearly demonstrated above.

    This is an example of what creeps people out about those who rave on and on about Zionism: in your rush to defend Patriot, you’ve overlooked the fact that my statements were accurate. Findley is a rabid Jew-hater. Not because he criticizes Israel — I do too, as does Secretary Rice and President Bush and many others — but because he rabidly hates Jewish people.

    As I’ve stated quite clearly now repeatedly and am getting really tired of repeating, the statement that “ANYONE criticizing Israel gets slapped with the ‘anti-Semite’ label” is easily demonstrated to be false, and I’ve already done so twice now.

    It’s just nonsense, and it reminds too many people (including me) of the tired excuses people have used for decades in the U.S. to excuse making racist statements about black people.

    Am I saying you’re an anti-Semite? No, let me be quite clear: You’re making statements that are often made by anti-Semites, and they echo decades of racist statements involving other races. That’s all.

    If you want to critize Israeli policies, why don’t you do so without invoking “Zionist” or “Jewish” and stick to criticizing PM Sharon (who surely deserve heaps of criticism) or other people by name. It is the generic references to an unnamed group of people that make people roll their eyes, as if you can’t tell “them” apart or something.

    I suspect I could say all of this again and again and again and it never get through to you. After all, I’ve said all of it before, and it didn’t get through then.

    And just so I’m clear, which Jewish people exactly planted explosives in the World Trade Center towers before Saudi hijackers flew planes into them?

  • Patriot

    RE: Comment 291

    John — you are really getting desperate when you start equating the criticism that has been made here with “sitting in a coffee shop and getting blown up by a bomb laced with nails…“

    You have a really perverse notion of what these posts have said…

    Are you always so far off track?

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Patriot:

    You were talking about people in Israel being racist…

    I’d think knowing family and friends getting blown up while grocery shopping from people too afraid to stand up and fight legitimately would do that. It’s a fair statement

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    John is clearly responding to this statement: “Anyone who has been there with their eyes open has experienced ‘racism’ by Israelis.” I’m not sure exactly what the poster meant, but John seems to believe that refers to racism against Palestinians, and is point out that what one person calls racism might be seen by another person as a desperate struggle for survival.

    It’s as on-topic as any other recent comment in this thread, is what I’m saying.

    I’ve never been to Israel and have no plans to ever go, so I don’t know what the previous commenter meant when he refered to racism in Israel. It could indeed be prevalent and insidious. It wouldn’t excuse racism against Israelis, of course, any more than racism by people of any race excuses racism against that race.

  • Venice-13

    I did mean “racism” towards Palestinians …. big time.

    I certainly DO NOT support any terrorist bombing by anyone, including Palestinans … But surely, JOHN BAMBENEK is refering to Palestinians when he says, “… getting blown up while grocery shopping from people too afraid to stand up and fight legitimately …”

    John Bambenek uses the word “legitimately” [“too afraid to stand up and fight legitimately”].. and perhaps he should look up the meaning of the word “LEGITIMATE”.

    Would fighting “legitimately” be like using F-16 fighters, dropping 500 pound bombs, helicopter missle attacks, targeted assassinations, harassing at countless checkpoints, and bulldozing homes, orchards and wells??? Is that what “fighting legitimately” is to John Bambenek ????

    And John Bambenek really … really did push to get Israel into this conversation.

    Our US administration used 9/11 as a pretext to bomb Afghanistan. We (along with the UK) began to increase bombing of Iraq in preparation for war, months before Powell even took his bullshit case to the UN. WMDs and America’s “security”, Saddams bogus association with Bin Laden, Iraq’s flouting of UN sanctions was a pretext for war against Iraq. PLEASE TELL ME WHAT STATE REALLY BENEFITS from a diffused Iraq?? … come on, take a guess! And what state benefits from a diffused Iran???

    Has Israel ever flouted UN resolutions???? HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ROFLMAO !!!

    Which country alone in the Middle East has nuclear weapons?

    Which country refuses to sign a non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspectors?

    Which country has seized the sovereign territory of other nations by military force, which it continues to hold in defiance of UN resolutions?

    Which country is in defiance of 69 UN resolutions and has been protected in 20 of these cases by a US veto on the Security Council?

    Which country has assassinated a high-ranking UN official?

    Which country re-elected as Prime Minister the man who ordered that assassination?

    Which country regularly breaks the Geneva Convention by imposing collective “punishments” on whole towns and villages?

    Which country receives weaponry from the United States for nothing, which it sells to China in defiance of protests from the US?

    Which country, reckoned to be the 16th richest in the world, receives a third of all US overseas aid?

    Need more questions ????

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    No, Venice, you’ve made your point clear. That ever Jew everywhere must be cleansed… I don’t think any more points are needed to prove you think that.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    I didn’t push to get Israel in this conversation, Israel was blamed for 9/11 early in this discussion.

    Let’s be honest, people who don’t think planes had anything to do with 9/11 think overwhelmingly that Israel did it.

  • Venice-13

    JOHN BAMBENEK, you say:
    >>>“No, Venice, you’ve made your point clear. That ever Jew everywhere must be cleansed…”

    I did not say that.   I was talking about Israel.   I don’t know the exact figures, but I think something like 40% of the world’s Jews now live in Israel. That leaves a lot of Jews who are living elsewhere … and it leaves a lot of Jews who don’t buy into Israel’s policies.   I live here in the U.S., and I’ve never needed Israel to dictate how I should be a Jew or to validate my “Jewishness”. As you fully understand, I’m talking about Israel and it’s policies. If you’re fine with Israel’s policies, I can agree to disagree with you, but please don’t change what I’ve said. And don’t say “you’ve made your point clear” … especially after you’ve tried to change my “point”. That’s a lame-ass trick you shouldn’t be playing.

  • Nancy

    I think it’s my fault; I asked for futher info on why the US so unilaterally supports Israel in all things, etc. which got the subject off. Sorry.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Venice:

    How about this lame-ass trick the UN has been playing: over 50% of all human rights that clear the human rights commission involve Israel. Not the forced abortion policy of China, not the massacring of Christians throughout Arab lands, not the occupation of Tibet. They couldn’t even get their crap together over Rawanda and Sudan took them 10 years to pay attention and they still won’t call genocide genocide there.

    Israel may be doing bad things, but being singled out of global gang-banging at the UN while other nations with as serious or more serious human rights problems get a free pass…

    Why is that?

    And when did we start giving s crap about international “suggestion”?

  • PseudoErsatz

    The television programming schedule is full of vacuous voyeurish ‘reality TV’ offerings, yet, as evident from these comments, some of the best fiction writers are undiscovered. All of you theorists head on over to Hollywood. Many a studio need your talents!

  • Venice-13

    Hey Nancy! Not your fault. Comment #56 (by another poster) was the only comment that mentioned Israel (well, Mossad) before Bambenek started phishing. Bambenek references Comment #171 also … but I think that comment was made facetiously.

    Since Comment #56, Bambenek has tried to elicit comments about Jews/Mossad/Israel several times.

    I think those are perfectly reasonable topics to look at when discussing 9/11, but the generall un-evenhanded support that Israel gets from the U.S., plus the fact that any criticism of Israel is met with “anti-Semite”, or “self-hating Jew”, and/or career destruction … well …. that makes it sort treacherous to wander into that area.

    I’m very happy that Bambenek hasn’t attempted to hang the “anti-Semite” label on anyone here … I’m glad that no one has done that.

    In trying to understand Bambenek’s strong defense of Israel, I first thought that he was probably a Jew (Yo Bambi, my brother!), but now I don’t think so. Now I think he’s a Christian. Some Christians defend Israel because they believe that the end of the world as predicted in the Book of Revelations, is imminent, and that those “End Times” must unfold in a Jewish state of Israel. Some Christians profess, but actually have NO sympathies for Jews as an ethnicity or Judaism as a religion. In fact, if the Biblical prophecy is to be fulfilled, the Christians believe that the Jews must accept Jesus as the Messiah. As we’ve seen throughout history, religion can cause blindness. Many Christians have no clue about the terrorism & persecution that the Israel has perpetrated against fellow Christians … the Palestinian Christians. The Palestinian is always seen as the “bad guy”.

    Bambenek:
    Heck, I believe Israel deserves blame for more than 50% of all charges that reach the UN Human Rights Commission.

    And what do you mean by international “suggestion” ?

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Venice:

    At what point did you get that I was a strong defender of Israel? I have some criticisms too, I just don’t think that when one side’s stated position is that the Jews should be rounded up and shot or sent back to Europe, I tend to think the problem isn’t as unilateral as BOTH camps make it out to be.

    Sure, Israel can be pretty brutal, but it isn’t like the Palestinians are as pure as the wind driven snow either. Or the rest of the Middle East for that matter.

    And with comments like Israel is to blame for over 50% of the human rights violations of the world, you ever stop to think we someone might start to use the anti-semite label? What did Israel have to do with China invading Tibet, for instance… or the forced abortions?

    What is commonly called international law is not law. Having studied it under one of the most prominent proponents of international law in the US, I came away with the conclusion that international law means jack shit in the real world. It’s formalized rules of diplomacy, you break them, you don’t get invited to as many cocktail parties. That’s about it.

  • hdhntr

    Looks like things are getting hotter for the NeoNazis
    Former Asst. Sec. Of Treasury Under Reagan Doubts Official 9/11 Story; Claims Neo Con Agenda Is As ‘Insane As Hitler And Nazi Party When They Invaded Russia In Dead Of Winter’
    A former high-ranking Republican official, also a well-respected author, tells the American people to stop listening to Bush administration lies about Iraqi war and claims the mainstream media will not publish anything he writes against Bush or his policies.
    June 22, 2005

    By Greg Szymanski

    A former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury under President Reagan stepped back into the political spotligh for thet this week, expressing doubt about the official 9/11 story and claiming “if they lied to us about Ruby Ridge, Waco and weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, why should we believe them now.”

    Paul Craig Roberts, listed by Who’s Who in America as one of the 1,000 most influential political thinkers in the world, has evolved over the years into a major Bush basher as well as neo con critic. Roberts said he hasn’t changed his political ideology or jumped from the Republican-conservative ship but “just can’t respect a party leadership who doesn’t respect the truth.”

    He is another in the long list of “Republican faithful,” including top-ranking government and military officials who have left or been pushed out Washington, since Bush’s neo con followers continue demonstrating a lack of desire and patience to compromise even with conservatives refusing “to toe the neo con line.”

    Expressing doubt about the government’s official version of 9/11but deferring detailed criticism to the experts, Roberts concerns come on the heels of recent criticism leveled by Morgan Reynolds, a former chief economist in the Bush I administration.

    Reynolds is the highest-ranking public official so far to step forward and criticize the government account of 9/11, calling the government story “bogus” and saying the WTC most likely fell from a controlled demolition.

    Saying 9/11 is only a part of a mysterious but deadly neo- con puzzle, Roberts looked back at history for some answers

    “They (neo cons) are making such fatalistic mistakes and are about as insane as Hitler and the Nazi Party when they invaded Russia in the dead of the winter,” said Roberts who now, as a hobby, syndicates a national newspaper column, adding to his long and impressive list of academic, journalistic and political credentials.

    Serving under President Reagan in 1981-82, Treasury Secretary Regan credited him with having a major role in the Economic Recovery Tax Act of 1981. He was then awarded the Treasury Department’s Meritorious Service Award for “his outstanding contributions to the formulation of United States economic policy.”

    Roberts is given much of the credit for structuring and drafting a major portion of the famous Kemp-Roth bill as well as having a leading role in developing bipartisan support for a supply-side economic policy. In 1987, the French government recognized him as “the artisan of a renewal in economic science and policy after half a century of state interventionism,” inducted him into the Legion of Honor.

    Even with his impressive background, Roberts, once a former columnist for Business Week and a thorn in the side of liberals back then, said “the times have drastically changed,” adding his views are no longer welcome in the mainstream media if they are critical of Bush or any of his policies.

    ” It’s like the Nazis removing dissent without using the Gestapo,” said Roberts, whose articles are circulated widely on the Internet and appear regularly in the American Free Press, an alternative publication. “Most publications, like the Washington Times, for example, will not print anything critical of Bush, his strategies and, definitely, anything seriously opposing the war is off base.”

    Although professing to know “a little about engineering” from his undergraduate days at Georgia Tech, Roberts deferred formulating any serious conclusions about the fall of the WTC, but expressed doubt as to the credibility of the entire official version based on past government lies uncovered at Waco, Ruby Ridge and the threat of WMD in Iraq.

    Roberts said the recent statements made by Reynolds, however, reveals just how flimsy and unbelievable the government story comes across.

    “This is not some kind of conspiracy nut or kook talking. He is a man with extremely qualified credentials, whose opinions I respect,” said Roberts referring to Reynolds’ comments which have been highly publicized across the country.

    “The real story is not Morgan Reynolds or myself, but why have so many former Republican conservatives and top ranking officials who disagree with the neo cons been systematically run out of Washington? And, also, why is the media so intent on covering up the Bush-neo con agenda and all the mistakes surrounding it?

    “I guess the real story about 9/11 is about what the people are actually saying. I’ve gotten hundreds of emails in response to my columns and many of them talk about not getting the truth from the government or the media about what really happened at the World Trade Center. I know many qualified engineers and scientists have said the WTC collapsed from explosives. In fact, if you look at the manner in which it fell, you have to give their conclusions credibility.”

    Besides 9/11 and blasting the neo con economic agenda as suicide for America, Roberts in his latest column seriously attacks the Bush Iraq war policy. Without mincing words, he wrote:

    ” The reasons they (the American people) were given by their president, vice president, secretary of defense, national security adviser, secretary of state, and the sycophantic media were nothing but a pack of lies.”

    Accusing Bush of also lying to the American people in his recent June 18 radio address, he added:

    “Bush again lied to the American people when he told them that the U.S. was forced into invading Iraq because of the Sept. 11 attack on the WTC.

    “Bush, the greatest disgrace that America has ever had to suffer, actually repeated at this late date the monstrous lie for which he is infamous throughout the world: ‘We went to war because we were attacked, and we are at war today because there are still people out there who want to harm our country and hurt our citizens.’”

    Roberts’ other impressive credentials include being awarded a John M. Olin Fellow at the Institute for Political Economy, a Senior Research Fellow at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University, and Research Fellow at the Independent Institute.

    In 1992, he received the Warren Brookes Award for Excellence in Journalism and, a year later, the Forbes Media Guide ranked him as one of the top seven journalists in the country. He was also Distinguished Fellow at the Cato Institute from 1993 to 1996 while also from 1982 through 1993, holding the William E. Simon Chair in Political Economy at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.

    For more informative articles, go to http://www.arcticbeacon.com where kind donations are accepted to keep the truth flowing in the wake of media apathy.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    1) You invoked Nazis, under Godwin’s law, you have lost this discussion.

    2) What is it with economists that make them experts in field besides economy?

    3) Sounds like he was gilted… maybe he’s got an agenda… Just a thought.

    4) The neo con agenda will be out of Washington in 08 one way or the other. Obviously if a Dem gets elected, it’s gone. There is no real conservative Republican in line for the Presidency either (and I would debate Bush being a real conservative).

  • hdhntr

    Maybe then a real investigation can commence so that justice may be served.

    What a monstrosity, what a grotesque distortion of American values and principals of truth and justice we have seen.

    If you’ve reviewed this thread and still tow the official story line, then you can count yourself as part of this conspiracy of denial.

  • hdhntr

    Distinctions must be made and lines drawn.

    Figure out who you are for, and against.

    You won’t find me guarding the lie of 911 that’s for sure, now that I know what I know and have seen what I’ve seen.

    There’s no middle ground on this issue.

    Buildings falling at the rate of free fall in a vacuum!!

    C’mon.

  • SFC SKI

    It’s “toe the line”, not “tow the line”.

  • Venice-13

    Hello Bambenek:I don’t seem to recall talking about rounding up Jews and shooting them … where do you get this stuff??

    >>>>“international law is not law” , yeah … okay it’s a different setup, for sure … but treaties are binding for the country that signs them. Those “rules” are not supposed to be broken. I would not say (as you do) that they don’t mean jack shit in the real world. But if you want to say that, then I’m going to call you “John Bolton”. Okay, deal!!

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Venice: Treaties have never been binding in the same sense as contracts are. Treaties are broken all the time. The US, albeit, takes treaties more seriously then most, but treaties only make up 1 of the 4 sources of international law. That still doesn’t change the fact treaties are broken, and are pretty easy to get out of in the end as well. Sure, there are political consequences, but they aren’t legal consequences.

    Not to mention the exceeding number of treaties that have less to do with international issues and are more domestic oriented. Why in the world is there a treaty on whether or not there is blanket health insurance for children in a nation? That’s a purely domestic issue.

    I’d prefer you call me Michael Bolton if you are going to call me a Bolton. :)

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    hdhntr:

    So who do you think is to blame for 9/11 then?

    Me? I think it was France…

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Venice:

    Then what do you propose to do with Israel? It’s clear you don’t think it should exist… so what do you want to do with those people?

  • http://www.nowhere.org John Bambenek

    There will be no peace until Israel can be wiped off the map.

    It’s time for the US to get out of bed with the zionist conspiracy.

  • hdhntr

    Who’s to blame?

    Bush senior, shadow government, zionist nationalist incest and certain corporate special interests, not the least of which is the military industrial complex, and the oil people, all mixed in with a type of grotesque Satanic will to power and global domination driving a dynamic of destruction and civilized regress, in the name of progress and “liberty”.

    The whole thing, what I call an episode of historical insanity, is an abomination against every value and principal which we hold dear.

    Those behind this, are therefore the enemy of both God and mankind, who come not to serve, but to be served.

    They are swine, a whole heard of them. May they be run into the historical abyss and drowned.

  • SFC SKI

    You forgot the Illuminati, but that’s how good they do their job of hiding their involvement.

  • R.Johnson

    Actually, The Illuminati were mentioned
    by moi,as suspects back in post #161.

  • SFC SKI

    Duly noted, but you know tooo much.

  • Nick Jones

    “2) What is it with economists that make them experts in field besides economy?”

    Their field is so dull they have to read the everything else just to keep a pulse.

    My, I’m in an impish mood tonight.

  • postman

    The one sure fire way to kill a thread is to say the word “Israel”. Out come all the anti-Semitic criers. Fuck Israel. It is an illegal country. Has been since it’s inception.

    Hey, I’ve got a word for you Jew bastards, how about anti-Hititic? But you stupid kikes wouldn’t know what that meant, you are so far up your own asses.

    The Hitites were from Mesopotamia or modern day Iraq. The Semites were a small Nomadic group, who lived among their Arab friends. They were not persecuted for their beliefs. Their land wasn’t stolen from them and their children weren’t randomly killed.

    All Semites now are anti-Hititic, since the Zionist Entity’s creation by the British and Americans for later use.

    Jews are anti-Hititic. Americans are anti-Hititic.

    Fuck the Jews, Fuck America, Fuck Bush and Sharon. Fuck Blair, Fuck the ‘Coalition of the Killing’.

  • http://www.judicial-inc.biz/IDF_kills_50_iraqis.htm p11sk3pt1c

    Yep this war is to prop up the illegal Zionist entity, no doubt. So it’s easy to understand why people believe that they were involved in 911.

    The 5 caught filming the WTC exploding certainly implies Zionist entity foreknowledge.

  • SFC SKI

    What started as sarcasm breeds another conspiracy.

  • http://victorplenty.blogspot.com Victor Plenty

    Jews sank the Titanic. Lost continent of Atlantis? Jews sank that too. Jews also caused the sinking of the Bismarck and engineered the disappearance of Amelia Earhart, although she was also a Jew.

    Jews faked the moon landings so nobody would discover their secret moonbases.

    Jews built the pyramids in Central America as landing pads for their spaceships. The Mayans really had nothing to do with it, although the Mayans are also Jews.

    The Egyptians built their pyramids in a last-ditch attempt to create their own crystal-powered spaceship technology to defend the Earth from the Jews, who defeated the Egyptians by bombing them back into the stone age, although the Egyptians were also Jews.

    That was when Jews blasted the nose off the Sphinx. Napoleon had nothing to do with that, although he was also a Jew.

    In fact, everybody you’ve ever heard of in history was really a Jew. Even you are a Jew, whether you know it or not! That’s how deep the conspiracy goes!

    I saw it on the Internet so it must be true.

    Let’s see if our visiting conspiracy theorists can top that.

  • http://www.bigtimepatriot.com Big Time Patriot

    Well, I LOVE conspiracies, I recommend Foucalt’s Pendulem by Umberto Eco.

    My problem with this is that if I really trusted the American Government to carry out something like this, than I would trust them to just TELL us who in Guatanemo was guilty without any proof needed.

    The truth is, I don’t believe government to be that competent. I don’t believe it is inherent in government to be that competent. I don’t believe they could carry out a conspiracy like this, just as I don’t trust them to replace a system of justice with blind faith labeling of people as terrorists.

  • hdhntr

    Head. Sand. Plunge.

  • Nancy

    Awright: so we’ve got a conspiracy by BushCo. & just about everybody else to bring down the towers & blame it anybody they feel like in order to justify doing whatever they want. Kind of a stupid question, but in the end, what do they get out of it? So far as I can see, a small coterie of very greedy people have made an awful lot of money (which for some is reason enough); an even smaller group has got a grip on megalomaniacal ‘power’ – but they’ve alienated most of the rest of the world, & still can’t get (at this juncture according to polls) 2/3 of the people of their own country to give them any credibility, and they’re losing that fast, except among the most extreme right. It isn’t going to give any one of them another minute of life, good health, or get them into heaven (assuming they believe, as they claim to, that there is one). So…what do they get? Is this all just for the thrill of it, to see how far they can get? If they bought into the murder of 3000+ people on 9/11, and the hundreds of thousands that have died since then in Afghanistan & Iraq, are they not aware that this places them on a par w/monsters of history such as Stalin & Mao, or do they not care, and this is just some kind of exercise in sadistic, cold blooded agression? What would the ultimate aim be, here? To strengthen the US? Hasn’t happened so far, and if that’s the goal, they’ve grossly miscalculated. And again, I have to keep coming back to their professions of religion: do they seriously think they can perpetrate such stuff and God’s gonna forgive them, let alone welcome them w/open arms?

  • hdhntr

    Seems you pretty much answer you own questions within the question?

    I think it’s fair to assume that these people don’t believe in the Christian God, and most certainly, not as we’ve come to think about it.

    Try watching this, to begin to understand what they’ve been trying to do (sorry, I don’t know how to make a link, a link)

    911 Commission – Omissions and Distortions
    David Ray Griffin CSPAN Speech
    Part One
    http://tinyurl.com/baf5b
    Part Two
    http://tinyurl.com/9z3d9

  • Nancy

    If I did manage to ‘answer’ myself, I haven’t been able to recognize it, except to conclude that either these people are totally evil or totally insane, in which case, why aren’t others besides me and a few others recognizing this?

  • hdhntr

    They are, now, at last.

    Totally evil and totally insane.

    People are waking up. You cannot see this by watching CNN.

    It’s happening though. The Bush admin is itself now in a free fall collapse, but it’s happening in slomo I guess..

    There is no denying the evidence and the proof of inside job.

    At the very heart of the “machine” is a dark shadow government who has arisen through history, not to serve, but only to be served.

    They are, from what I can tell, anti-Christian in orientation, in values, and in principals. They are ememies of both God and mankind.

    It’s the snake, winding it’s way up the structure, and what came out the top was 9/11 and everything that we’ve seen happening since, in its name. It’s a projection, from evil, against evil, in the name of God and Liberty, and it’s a grotesque abomination of “Civility”.

  • hdhntr

    Here is a pretty good presentation of some of the evidence.

    http://tinyurl.com/c2aj9

    Make a comment and keep the discussion going, which seems to go dead at the realization that it is true that 9/11 was in fact, an inside job.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    The problem with this discussion is that no one has yet to address my objections to the conspiracies. You keep posting links, that’s great, but none address the core problems I have presented…

    1) They couldn’t sequence the explosions correctly having the tower hit second come down first,
    2) They blew up a building that wasn’t hit

    Were their hijackers on board? If not, how did they fake the calls to families who should know the difference? Were the planes flying into the WTC a coincidence, something they knew about beforehand so they could plant explosives, or an illusion?

  • Venice-13

    hdhntr – Good going! I’m in agreement with you completely.

    Nancy   hdhntr is right on …. “People are waking up..” and presently you won’t get much besides the White House spin from the mainstream media. The media will be slow to come around … but it will.

    Pacifica Radio (5 stations in the U.S.) does an excellent job of providing truth through some excellent programs. Check out http://www.pacifica.org One of Pacifica’s flagship programs, “Democracy Now!” can be heard online. You can even listen to and watch previous segments … check out the “Democracy Now!” website at http://www.democracynow.org

    Out here (on the Left Coast) we also get “Air America Radio” which you can listen to online at http://www.airamericaradio.com

  • Venice-13

    Nancy:

    To download some very good videos about 9/11 … (FREE), including (as hdhntr mentioned) the CSPAN speech by David Ray Griffin … Please save and SHARE this page:

    http://question911.com/links.php

    (link should be clickable to open a separate window)

  • Venice-13

    An excellent essay (relates to 9/11) by Howard Blumb on Counter Punch can be found here:

    Some Things You Need to Know Before the World Ends

    (should click open to a new/separate window)

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Venice:

    The “excellent essay” was anything but. I’m not so sure what a neocon is anymore aside of a perjorative because conservative doesn’t sting anymore.

    There are some fundamental distinctions between liberals and conservatives, and I’m not sure what the objection is… does he suggest we need someone even MORE left than the left?

    What’s more left? The Taliban? (And they were liberals, NOT conservatives)

  • http://caosblog.com Cao

    You know, this reminds me of what the french communists said about the 9/11 attack on the pentagon.The catalyst for most of the Pentagon attack sleuths can be traced back to the incendiary propaganda of French author and radical socialist Thierry Meyssan, president of the virulently anti-American and pro-Communist French think tank Reseau Voltaire. In his best selling book, L’Effroyable Imposture (the Frightening Deception), Meyssan launched the claim that American Airlines Flight 77 did not hit the Pentagon. It has been translated into English and is sold in the US as 9/11: The Big Lie. Meyssan has followed up with a second book, Pentagate.

    Many of the organizations and websites “investigating” the 9/11 attacks promote and/or sell the Meyssan books, Dave von Kleist, narrator and producer of the video 9/11 In Plane Site, on of the most popular “exposes” of the September 11 events, explains in his video that it was Meyssan’s 9/11 website: “Hunt the Boeing” that got him started investigating the matter.

    Mr. vonKleist strangely refers repeatedly to Meyssan’s books and website as information “released by the French”, as though it were released by the French people collectively. In reality, Meyssan represents only a small fringe on the far left of French politics and his 9/11 materials have been denounced as disinformation and hucksterism by political and media representatives spanning the spectrum of French political thought, including many of those who strongly oppose US policies in response to the 9/11 terror attack.

    To me, this whole discussion is mere reverberations of a conspiracy theory held by extreme leftwing nutcases who are looking for something else to cry and whine about.

  • hdhntr

    Except for the fact that the towers fell in 8-10 seconds, and the time for any free falling object (in a vacuum) to hit the ground from that height is precisely 9.2 seconds according to Gallileo’s law of free falling bodies.

    That, plus plenty of eyewitness accounts of explosions, like this one for example:

    The Janitor:

    What happened to William Rodriguez the morning of 9/11 is a miracle. What happened to his story after-the-fact is a tragedy.

    But with miracles and tragedies comes truth. And truth is exactly what Rodriguez brings to the whole mystery surrounding 9/11.

    Declared a hero for saving numerous lives at Ground Zero, he was the janitor on duty the morning of 9/11 who heard and felt explosions rock the basement sub-levels of the north tower just seconds before the jetliner struck the top floors.

    He not only claims he felt explosions coming from below the first sub-level while working in the basement, he says the walls were cracking around him and he pulled a man to safety by the name of Felipe David, who was severely burned from the basement explosions.

    All these events occurred only seconds before and during the jetliner strike above. And through it all, he now asks a simple question everybody should be asking? How could a jetliner hit 90 floors above and burn a man’s arms and face to a crisp in the basement below within seconds of impact?

    Rodriguez claims this was impossible and clearly demonstrates a controlled demolition brought down the WTC, saying “Let’s see them (the government) try to wiggle out of this one.”

    Well, they haven’t wiggled out of it because the government continues to act like Rodriguez doesn’t exist, basically ignoring his statements and the fact he rescued a man burnt and bleeding from the basement explosions.

    His eye witness account, ignored by the media and the government, points the finger squarely on an official cover-up at the highest levels since the government contends the WTC fell only from burning jet fuel. And after listening to Rodriguez, it’s easy to see why the Bush administration wants him kept quiet.

    Bush wants him quiet because Rodriguez’s account is ‘proof positive’ the WTC was brought down by a controlled demolition, not burning jet fuel. And Bush knows if he’s caught lying about this or caught in a cover-up, it’s just a matter of time before the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.

    In fact, Rodriguez’s story is so damaging – so damning – it literally blows the lid off the government story, literally exposing the whole 9/11 investigation as a sham and a cover-up of the worst kind.

    And it appears the cover-up also extends to the media.

    NBC news knew about his story several years ago, even spending a full day at his house taping his comments. But when push came to shove, his story was never aired. Why?

    His eyewitness account, backed up by at least 14 people at the scene with him, isn’t speculation or conjecture. It isn’t a story that takes a network out on a journalistic limb. It’s a story that can be backed up, a story that can be verified with hospital records and testimony from many others.

    It’s a story about 14 people who felt and heard the same explosion and even saw Rodriguez, moments after the airplane hit, take David to safety, after he was burnt so bad from the basement explosion flesh was hanging from his face and both arms

    So why didn’t NBC or any other major news outlets cover the story? They didn’t run it because it shot the government story to hell and back. They didn’t run it because “the powers at be” wouldn’t allow it.

    Since 9/11, Rodriguez has stuck to his guns, never wavering from what he said from day one. Left homeless at times, warned to keep quiet and subtly harassed, he nevertheless has continued trying to tell get his message out in the face of a country not willing to listen.

    Here is his story:

    The Miracle

    It’s a miracle Rodriguez, 44, who worked at the WTC for 20 years, is even alive. Usually arriving to work at 8:30am, the morning of 9/11 he reported 30 minutes late. If he’d arrived on time, it would have put him at the top floors just about the same time the jetliner hit the north tower.

    “It was a miracle. If I arrived on time, like always, I’d probably be dead. I would have been up at the top floors like every morning,” said Rodriguez about the quirk of fate that saved his life.

    But since he was late, Rodriguez found himself checking into work in an office on sub-level 1 when the north tower was hit, seemingly out of harms way. However, the sound and concussion of a massive explosion in the sub-levels right below his feet changed that.

    “When I heard the sound of the explosion, the floor beneath my feet vibrated, the walls started cracking and it everything started shaking,” said Rodriguez, who was huddled together with at least 14 other people in the office.

    Rodriguez said Anthony Saltamachia, supervisor for the American Maintenance Co., was one of the people in the room who stands ready to verify his story.

    “Seconds after the first massive explosion below in the basement still rattled the floor, I hear another explosion from way above,” said Rodriguez. “Although I was unaware at the time, this was the airplane hitting the tower, it occurred moments after the first explosion.”

    But before Rodriguez had time to think, co-worker Felipe David stormed into the basement office with severe burns on his face and arms, screaming for help and yelling “explosion! explosion! explosion!”

    David had been in front of a nearby freight elevator on sub-level 1 about 400 feet from the office when fire burst out of the elevator shaft, causing his injuries.

    “He was burned terribly,” said Rodriguez. “The skin was hanging off his hands and arms. His injuries couldn’t have come from the airplane above, but only from a massive explosion below. I don’t care what the government says, what scientists say. I saw a man burned terribly from a fire that was caused from an explosion below.

    “I know there were explosives placed below the trade center. I helped a man to safety who is living proof, living proof the government story is a lie and a cover-up.

    “I have tried to tell my story to everybody, but nobody wants to listen. It is very strange what is going on here in supposedly the most democratic country in the world. In my home country of Puerto Rico and all the other Latin American countries, I have been allowed to tell my story uncensored. But here, I can’t even say a word.”

    After Rodriguez escorted David to safety outside the WTC, he returned to lead the others in the basement to safety as well. While there, he also helped two other men trapped and drowning in the basement elevator shaft, another result he says of the explosives placed below the tower.

    In fact, after leading these men to safety, he even made another trip back into the north tower, against police orders, in order to rescue people from the top floors.

    “I never could make it to the top, but I got up to the 33rd floor after getting some of my equipment and a face mask out of the janitor’s closet,” said Rodriguez, adding he heard a series of small explosions going off between the 20th and 30th floors, unrelated to the airplane strike, while making his way through the stairwell to the top floors.

    “Also, when I was on the 33rd floor, I heard strange sounds coming form the 34th floor, loud noises like someone moving and thumping heavy equipment and furniture. I knew this floor was empty and stripped due to construction work so I avoided it and continued to make my way up the stairs.”

    Rodriguez said he finally reached the 39th floor before being turned back by fire fighters and then, reluctantly, started his dissent back down and his own flight to safety while, at the same time, hearing explosions coming from the South Tower.

    The Tragedy

    The concerted effort by the media and the government to silence Rodriguez is the tragedy behind this American hero’s story. And there is no question, Rodriguez is a “silent hero” for saving so many lives and for having the courage to continue telling his story against tremendous odds.

    In an effort to open a fair and honest investigation as to why the WTC collapsed, Rodriguez has been ignored by government officials, the 9/11 Commission and the National Institute of Safety and Technology (NIST).

    NIST, an independent investigative group funded by the government, put the finishing touches this week on its 2 year $35 million 9/11 investigation. This week Rodriguez made his final plea to have his story heard while testifying at the final public hearing held in New York.

    ” I disagree 100%with the government story,” said Rodriguez. “I met with the 9/11 Commission behind closed doors and they essentially discounted everything I said regarding the use of explosives to bring down the north tower.

    “And I contacted NIST previously four times without a response. Finally, this week I asked them before they came up with their conclusion that jet fuel brought down the towers, if they ever considered my statements or the statements of any of the other survivors who heard the explosions. They just stared at me with blank faces and didn’t have any answers.

    “Also, The FBI never followed up on my claims or on the other part of my story when I told them before 9/11, I encountered one of the hijackers casing the north tower.”

    Besides the explosions, Rodriguez also has provided testimony to the 9/11 Commission that he stumbled across one of the supposed 19 Arab hijackers inside the WTC several months before 9/11

    “I had just finished cleaning the bathroom and this guy asks me, ‘Excuse me, how many public bathrooms are in this area?'” Rodriguez told the 9/11 Commission. “Coming from the school of the 1993 [Trade Center] bombing, I found it very strange. I didn’t forget about it”

    Rodriguez, claims he saw United Airlines Flight 175 hijacker Mohand Alshehri in June 2001, telling an FBI agent about the incident a month after the attacks. Never hearing back from the bureau, he later learned agents never followed up on the story.

    “I’m very certain, I’ll give it 90%” that Alshehri was casing the towers before the attacks,” said Rodriguez.

    Regarding the media’s apathetic approach to his story, Rodriguez said immediately after 9/11 some newspapers picked it up but his words were never taken seriously and quickly forgotten.

    “During the 9/11 hearings, NBC brought a crew out to my house and spent a day taping my story but they never did air a word of it,” said Rodriguez. “Since then, some reporters and commentators have subtly warned me to keep quiet, told me my life could be in jeopardy and warned me that I really didn’t understand who I was dealing with.

    “I have been receiving this type of subtle harassment for years, but I keep telling everybody I can’t be intimidated because I am on a mission. Whenever someone asks why I keep talking or warns me that I could be killed, I just tell them I have nothing to lose.

    “I tell them I lost 200 friends and I am their voice now. I tell them I will do everything in my power to find out the truth since I am living on borrowed time since I probably should be dead anyway.”

    Besides trying to tell his explosive story, Rodriguez has been active raising money for 9/11victims, being involved with charity groups that have raised more than $122 million. He says he has used over $60,000 of his own money, originally earmarked to buy a new house, in order to get at the truth behind 9/11.

    Also seeking justice at the highest level, Rodriguez is the lead plaintiff in a federal RICO lawsuit filed against President Bush and others, alleging conspiracy to commit murder and other crimes in the deaths of more than 3,000 at the WTC.

    The case, filed last November in a Philadelphia federal district court, recently was moved to New York in a change of venue after a government’s motion to dismiss was overruled, allowing legal discovery to continue.

    “Even if the case goes no farther, I feel we have scored a victory by winning this first battle,” said Rodriguez. “At least the judge seems willing to listen which is a victory of sorts. However, I sincerely hope we can eventually take the case all the way to trial and reveal the truth to the American people about 9/11.”

    For more informative articles, go to http://www.arcticbeacon.com where kind donations are also accepted to keep the truth flowing in the wake of media apathy.

    http://www.arcticbeacon.com/articles/article/1518131/28031.htm

  • hdhntr

    Anyone who, after review of all the information contained in this thread, who would sit there, with arms folded and say “To me, this whole discussion is mere reverberations of a conspiracy theory held by extreme leftwing nutcases who are looking for something else to cry and whine about.” I think is either terribly misguided by the the way this has played out through the controlled media, or, is denial, or, think that this is about partisan politics, and a left wing attack against Bush in particular. This is NOT about politics, Cao, but about right and wrong, good and evil.

    You might think twice before standing on guard in front of this lie of all lies.

  • http://onecornerma.blogspot.com NYgirl

    First, planes DID hit the WTC. I know a lot of people who saw it. There were hundreds of witnesses to that event.

    Second, I don’t know if you are aware of this, but the WTC was built in a “newer” style than the other skyscrapers. It’s supporting structure is lighter, which is why it has far more space than the earlier buildings. When you went inside the TWC, as opposed to the Empier State, you could see the difference with your naked eye. The TWC was far more spaciouse & airy.

    It’s lightness was its Achilles’ heel in terms of structural strength. There was comparably less steel in the structure of the TWC, that was why the steel melted from the tons of jet fuel.
    Of course, the heat genereated from the large amount of jet fuel would have been enough to destroy almost any structure.

    Finally, 9/11 happened because we dropped our guard. Remember that it was bombed in the early 1990’s also, and the planers are recorded as saying that they intend to finish the job.

    If as you say, 9/11 was a Zionist conspiracy, I’d like to know who you hold responsible for the bombing of the WTC during the CLINTON administration?

  • hdhntr

    Newer, lighter style?

    Also, I’ll repeat again. The towers fell at the rate of FREE FALL, and there were explosions, multiple explosions reported by many many eyewitnesses, including reporters and firefighters, but we just don’t hear those reports any more in the mainstream media.

    Multiple explosions. Free fall collapse = controlled demolition.

    The Oklahoma City bombing and the WTC bombing occured during the Clinton Adminstration, yes. Clinton too helped to foster this thing. He knows too, and now pals around with Bush senior.

    This is NOT about left vs. right. It’s not about politics! Sheesh!

    “In this they proceeded on the sound principle that the magnitude of a lie always contains a certain factor of credibility, since the great masses of the people in the very bottom of their hearts tend to be corrupted rather than consciously and purposely evil, and that, therefore, in view of the primitive simplicity of their minds they more easily fall a victim to a big lie than to a little one, since they themselves lie in little things, but would be ashamed of lies that were too big. Such a falsehood will never enter their heads and they will not be able to believe in the possibility of such monstrous effrontery and infamous misrepresentation in others; **yes, even when enlightened on the subject, they will long doubt and waver, and continue to accept at least one of these causes as true.** Therefore, something of even the most insolent lie will always remain and stick � a fact which all the great lie-virtuosi and lying-clubs in this world know only too well and also make the most treacherous use of.”
    ~ Adolf Hitler, on The Big Lie
    “Mein Kampf (**’s added for emphasis)

  • http://www.parrotcheck.com Duncan Avatar

    I wrote on this whackjob Dr. Reynold’s at my blog briefly. A buddy of mine told me to go look at what a group of people who have more expertise on structural engineering than myself, Dr Reynold’s, Micheal Moore, or any other conspiracy theorist probably have. Yes, the people at the Right Wing Cover Up Magazine.. Popular Mechanics. (Disclaimer, I only read through a few of the many.. many comments, so if somebody else linked to this already, my apologies…)

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=4&c=y

    An excerpt:

    “Jet fuel burns at 800° to 1500°F, not hot enough to melt steel (2750°F). However, experts agree that for the towers to collapse, their steel frames didn’t need to melt, they just had to lose some of their structural strength–and that required exposure to much less heat. “I have never seen melted steel in a building fire,” says retired New York deputy fire chief Vincent Dunn, author of The Collapse Of Burning Buildings: A Guide To Fireground Safety. “But I’ve seen a lot of twisted, warped, bent and sagging steel. What happens is that the steel tries to expand at both ends, but when it can no longer expand, it sags and the surrounding concrete cracks.”

    “Steel loses about 50 percent of its strength at 1100°F,” notes senior engineer Farid Alfawak-hiri of the American Institute of Steel Construction. “And at 1800° it is probably at less than 10 percent.” NIST also believes that a great deal of the spray-on fireproofing insulation was likely knocked off the steel beams that were in the path of the crashing jets, leaving the metal more vulnerable to the heat.

    But jet fuel wasn’t the only thing burning, notes Forman Williams, a professor of engineering at the University of California, San Diego, and one of seven structural engineers and fire experts that PM consulted. He says that while the jet fuel was the catalyst for the WTC fires, the resulting inferno was intensified by the combustible material inside the buildings, including rugs, curtains, furniture and paper. NIST reports that pockets of fire hit 1832°F.

    “The jet fuel was the ignition source,” Williams tells PM. “It burned for maybe 10 minutes, and [the towers] were still standing in 10 minutes. It was the rest of the stuff burning afterward that was responsible for the heat transfer that eventually brought them down.”

    So for all of you Bush-hating leftoids who can only imagine that this evil evil man is planning to take over the Arab world and their oil and decided to orchestrate this brilliant plan (or maybe it was Karl Rove since Bushitler is sooo stoopid) please place your craniums back up your rectums where they belong…..

  • http://www.parrotcheck.com Duncan Avatar

    OH, and please read these excerpts from same said article when dealing with the explosion theory:

    “Once each tower began to collapse, the weight of all the floors above the collapsed zone bore down with pulverizing force on the highest intact floor. Unable to absorb the massive energy, that floor would fail, transmitting the forces to the floor below, allowing the collapse to progress downward through the building in a chain reaction. Engineers call the process “pancaking,” and it does not require an explosion to begin, according to David Biggs, a structural engineer at Ryan-Biggs Associates and a member of the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) team that worked on the FEMA report.

    Like all office buildings, the WTC towers contained a huge volume of air. As they pancaked, all that air–along with the concrete and other debris pulverized by the force of the collapse–was ejected with enormous energy. “When you have a significant portion of a floor collapsing, it’s going to shoot air and concrete dust out the window,” NIST lead investigator Shyam Sunder tells PM. Those clouds of dust may create the impression of a controlled demolition, Sunder adds, “but it is the floor pancaking that leads to that perception.”

    Demolition expert Romero regrets that his comments to the Albuquerque Journal became fodder for conspiracy theorists. “I was misquoted in saying that I thought it was explosives that brought down the building,” he tells PM. “I only said that that’s what it looked like.”

    Romero, who agrees with the scientific conclusion that fire triggered the collapses, demanded a retraction from the Journal. It was printed Sept. 22, 2001. “I felt like my scientific reputation was on the line.” But emperors-clothes.com saw something else: “The paymaster of Romero’s research institute is the Pentagon. Directly or indirectly, pressure was brought to bear, forcing Romero to retract his original statement.” Romero responds: “Conspiracy theorists came out saying that the government got to me. That is the farthest thing from the truth. This has been an albatross around my neck for three years.”

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    I can’t believe this idiot thread is still going on and I can’t believe I’m responding to it.

    >>There is no denying the evidence and the proof of inside job.

    At the very heart of the “machine” is a dark shadow government who has arisen through history, not to serve, but only to be served.

    They are, from what I can tell, anti-Christian in orientation, in values, and in principals. They are ememies of both God and mankind. <<

    So can you clarify this again? Are we talking the Elders of Zion, the Illuminati, the Freemasons, the Secret Seven, or some entirely new shadow government?

    Wait, since they’re anti-god maybe they’re Satanists? Or maybe Scientologists?

    BTW, hdhntr – are you just an atempt by Patriot to distance himself from his old name after being outed as a racist?

    Dave

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    It’s the thread that just won’t die…

    But thanks for putting my post in the top 10 for comments. :)

  • B. Lyle

    Dave, you forgot to mention that this
    group of “Govt.” spooks also were very
    likely to have been responsible for the
    JFK assasination,the debacle at the Bay
    Of Pigs,L.B.J.’s election,Ms. Deborah
    Gibsons failed come back attempt and
    that they all attend “Red Mass” together
    before the U.S. Supreme Court goes into
    session.

  • http://themiddleground.blogspot.com kat-missouri

    Well, I can see there are a number of folks that need to take occam’s razor and slit their wrists since they will never be in this realm of reality again.

    First, let me explain that I am in Kansas City and witnessed live on television the collapse of the cat walks in the Hyatt Regency.

    An interesting fact, this building had used “box” joints which failed under weight. These didn’t fail in one place and not in another. They failed all at once at the upper level. Each level had a load baring ability and shared this load baring across all floors. As the load was pushed downwards onto the lower floors, these too collapsed.

    In a pancake fashion, with each floor striking the next, adding load to the floors below it, after the first two floors collapsed, all of the other floors collapsed within miliseconds of the others, causing a near simultaneous collapse. These floors fell straight down on one another.

    Interestingly, it did not take a fire to make them collapse. Simply the additional weight which it was not meant to hold caused the failure.

    Thus the question of all the floors falling as if it was a blast, is frankly ludicrous. It did not take a fire spread out throughout the building to collapse the entire structure. it only took the weakening of the building, partially due to the planes taking out or immensely damaging the two outside load baring walls. Secondly, I cannot understand why no one here espousing silly conspiracy theories did not get the fact that the planes went ALL the WAY Through the building, taking out a large part of the “inner core” along the way, greatly weakening the standing structure. Frankly, I’m surprised it stood as long as it did.

    Add to that the raging fires that have already been pointed to by investigators and firemen alike as being fueled by desks, books, paper, gypsum board, wooden doors and a huge number of other flammable items, all burning and weakening the internal supports on THOSE floors.

    Once those supports failed, every support under it had to take the weight of the next. No amount of engineering feet could force 70 floors to hold the weight of 30 floors above it falling into them without the external skelaton or internal tube structures being in place.

    That is against the laws of physics and engineering.

    For a less dramatic idea of how this works, imagine remodeling your home and accidentally knocking down the load baring wall. What happens to your house? Does it fall of it’s foundation? Collapse on it’s side? does it matter if there are three floors above it?

    It collapses or implodes in on itself.

    It is no different, regardless of how tall the buildings are.

    The only way that a building collapses side ways is if the damage IS at the base first. As long as the base stays intact, everything falls down, not side ways.

    For a simplistic concept of this, imagine hacking a tall tree or even a short three. when you hack the base, the tree falls side ways. If you start at the top and hack off three feet at a time, all of the debris falls within a few feet of the tree itself.

    It’s natural physics.

    By the way, tower 7 wasn’t the only other building damaged by flying and falling debris. it’s just the second most famous because that is where the rescue command was set up and it was demolished on purpose due to its damage and danger it presented.

    All things considered, it is a fact that two planes flew into these buildings. It is a fact that the planes erupted into flames and intense fires were started all over the floors effected. Try reading some of the survivor accounts for the reality. It is a fact that the core was cut away. Just read some of the survivors who said the elevators were gone and huge chunks of steal were lying around.

    it is a fact that stewardesses on the planes and regular citizens called in and told people exactly who and what was going on.

    The major problem with a conspiracy such as all of these people are pointing to and which someone else has pointed out, there is no way to commit such a huge act, involve the number of people that would be required, the amount of supplies, the insane timing it would take, to make these things happen.

    Once you say one thing was a conspiracy, all other parts must be so, too. The conspiracy widens until it is impossible that it could be maintained.

    Occam’s razor people. the obvious and first answer is probably the most correct.

    But, I understand those that want to delude themselves on the matter. it is probably easier to understand and believe something or some one very large could carry this off instead of just a few in planes. To believe that just a few could do it would mean that you would have to re-assess your ideas about the humanity or inhumanity of your fellow man, specifically those that live across the street from you or in the next house. That is much more frightening and harder to fight against than picking out the big bogeyman and having a large and known target.

  • hdhntr

    “Once each tower began to collapse, the weight of all the floors above the collapsed zone bore down with pulverizing force on the highest intact floor. Unable to absorb the massive energy, that floor would fail, transmitting the forces to the floor below, allowing the collapse to progress downward through the building in a chain reaction. Engineers call the process “pancaking,” and it does not require an explosion to begin, according to David Biggs, a structural engineer at Ryan-Biggs Associates and a member of the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) team that worked on the FEMA report.”

    There is a problem with this theory. The entire building, along the entire length of it’s structure, completely collapsed from top, to bottom in about 8-10 seconds.

    So what?

    Well, according to Gallileo’s law of falling bodies, from that height, total free fall time without ANY resistence forces of ANY kind, is 9.2 seconds flat.

    Thought experiment.

    Take one large safe or a grand piano and position at the height of the north tower

    North Tower, prior to collapse (prior to all the explosions)

    Drop

    Both hit the ground at the same time.

    Now, consider that the entire building was made of like steel, built around a very solid structural steel core..

    C’mon.

    And no I’m not Patriot. And I’m not racist or an anti-Semite.

  • hdhntr

    Massive resistence forces would have been at work, and even if the successive collapse of the floors took only a fraction of a second, still, it is impossible to account for what was observed and reported (explosions) except by controlled demolition.

    The problem that people are having, isn’t with the physics, or the eyewitness reports, but with the psycho9logical nature of such a lie.

    Wake Up!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Good dose of sanity there, Kat. The key problem with all these conspiracy theories is that with so many people involved it’s almost impossible that someone would not ‘spill the beans’. The only way to keep a secret between 2 people is if one of them is dead.

    After reading hdhntr’s last post I’m convinced, though. The earth is flat and the WTC was brought down by the people who walk on their hands who live on the other side of the disc.

    Dave

  • http://themiddleground.blogspot.com kat-missouri

    you know the problem with that 9.2 second theory of yours is that you assume that the failure only occurred in those seconds that you could see on TV.

    The towers actually took over an hour each to fall. failure was occuring at every moment. Eye witnesses also report falling debris, collapsing walls and parts of floors blocking exits. The building was shaking and swaying during the entire time.

    Thus failure was not solely within 9.2 seconds of television footing.

    I believe the issue of “explosions” have already been delt with but if air pressure doesn’t wet your whistle, have you ever experienced an intense fire in a house? As the fire heats up, the air heats up and expands the air. in enclosed rooms, the air continues to seek a way to escape. if it can’t find an opening, it will make one. windows and doors explode outward.

    As these openings occur, air rushes in causing instant fuel to the fire and what appears and feels like an “explosion”.

    Add that to the air pressure of a building that was pressurized and “boom” explosions. everywhere.

  • hdhntr

    “yes, even when enlightened on the subject, they will long doubt and waver, and continue to accept at least one of these causes as true. Therefore, something of even the most insolent lie will always remain and stick; a fact which all the great lie-virtuosi and lying-clubs in this world know only too well and also make the most treacherous use of.”

  • hdhntr

    “The building was designed to have a fully loaded 707 crash into it. That was the largest plane at the time. I believe that the building probably could sustain multiple impacts of jetliners because this structure is like the mosquito netting on your screen door — this intense grid — and the jet plane is just a pencil puncturing that screen netting. It really does nothing to the screen netting”

    – Frank A. Demartini Construction Manager For The WTC

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    And I still hold to the position there was no way it could be pulled off in 8 months either, blowing away the blame Bush crowd…

    That and the conspiracies don’t explain the reality that there WAS hijackers on the planes…

    Did the conspirators know the plans and plan accordingly?

  • hdhntr

    As if the entire length of the structure beneath the impact point was “preparing” itself to completely collapse at the rate of free fall. That is completely untennable and utterly absurd.

  • http://www.911review.org/ Han

    For all people who followed this thread and want to learn more about it. Please consider reading: http://www.911review.org/ It gives a complete oversight of all the crucial facts of the 911 attacks.

  • http://kendersmusings.blogspot.com kender

    You folks that see a conspiracy in this just keep thinking that….but while you are worrying about that conspiracy you should maybe watch out for UFO’s….wouldn’t want to be abducted by the aliens that are in league with the Illuminati now would ya?

    Effin idiots.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Ahh yes, gnosticism is alive and well…

    There’s always someone professing a theology of sooper sekret knowledge that no one else has and that everyone else is stupid and deceived…

    There is no Matrix.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    hdhntr sure likes to quote Hitler over and over and over again.

    Dave

  • http://trejrc0.blogspot.com TJ

    While I am not a demolition person I have read & watched several pieces on this exact topic, and (from everything I have seen) the people who do specialize in this area have been unanimous – the sub-par heat shielding on the truss infrastructure led to the failure.

    Additionally, apparently a collapse-inward is exactly what is expected when a truss-supported building fails.

    Just my $.02.
    /TJ

    PS – anytime there is a feasible explanation for something and a ‘conspiracy theory’ one you should almost always choose the simpler of the two; after doing research of course ;).

    PPS – remember : two people can keep a secret only if one of them is dead.

  • http://trejrc0.blogspot.com TJ
  • hdhntr
  • http://paperfrigate.blogspot.com DrPat

    Spam-B-Gone! (Two for the price of one…)

  • Bennett

    Dude! Please, no matter how excited you get, NEVER do THAT again! It totally messes up the collumns of blogcritics.

    Don’t you know how to make a clickable link???

    Please learn this basic skill.

    Thanks!

  • Venice-13

    From TJ:
    >>>>“remember : two people can keep a secret only if one of them is dead.”

    Several folks have made that comment, and it’s total BS. Many secrets have been kept from us (Americans) in the past. Eventually they can be exposed.

    Only several days ago Japan published a report by George Weller, a Pulitzer Prize-winning author/journalist, who told what he saw on the ground in Nagasaki several weeks after it was hit with an American nuclear bomb. Weller’s story was seized by General MacArthur, and has been kept a SECRET for 60 years. Anyone want to guess if more than several people knew about the story?

    What about U.S. government tests on humans — with radiation, chemical and biological weapons? You can bet that more than two people knew about this, but it was never revealed …. untill someone (darn, was it a conspiracy theorist????) dug up some information.

    Don’t be so naive to think that you know the answers, especially when you refuse to ask the hard questions or condemn those who do ask those questions. Can your government keep secrets from you …. YES, BIG TIME !!

    Did you question the Gulf of Tonkin phantom attack in 1964??? Some folks asked questions … they were called “conspiracy theorists”. I questioned it and still got drafted (out of college) and served actively from 1966 to 1968.

    What about the case for the Iraq War? Are there any secrets being kept from you??? New bits and pieces are slowly being revealed … the latest being the “Downing Street Memos” … but hey!!! Why ask questions??? If you ask questions you must be a “lefty” or a “conspiracy theorist”.

    I luckily survived a war based on deceptions and secrets kept by more than two people … too many did not survive. If asking hard questions can keep innocent people from dying for no damn reason …. ask the questions. If you simply wish to believe our government … then cool .. Let me know how that works out for you.

    I don’t mind taking flak from anyone on this board, but if you tell me I’m Bush-bashing … you’re a lying punk … and probably a Chickenhawk.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    The problems with the Downing Street Memos are many…

    1) That they were reproductions and not originals
    2) The originals were burned
    3) the conclusions drawn (that Bush lied) are demonstrably false even in the memo themselves. (If Bush sincerely believed there was WMD, then he couldn’t have lied)
    4) No one has yet to authenticate the memo against the original (people saying, “Yeah, that seems right” is not authentication)

    And what precisely is a chickenhawk? Just a perjorative used to say that no one can support the war unless they are actually in Iraq?

  • Venice-13

    BAMBENEK:

    You’ve got a really nasty habit of putting words into other people’s postings that were never there.

    Who said (recently) that Bush lied? I certainly didn’t say that.

    The British government did not deny the facts presented in the Downing Street Memos. It would have been to Blairs advantage (prior to elections) to deny those facts … but he didn’t.

    Does “not deny = admit or confirm”? Of course not … but look at what was at stake for Blair and what the release of the memos cost him. Why wouldn’t he have denied?

    British and U.S. bombing increased dramatically, and in violation of international law (for which you’ver already expressed your disregard), in the 5 months prior to the case for war being brought to the Senate. Someone was keeping SECRETS …

    You ask, >>>>>“And what precisely is a chickenhawk? Just a perjorative used to say that no one can support the war unless they are actually in Iraq?

    NO, Bambenek, You’re wrong. Here’s the definition:

    “Chickenhawk n. A person enthusiastic about war, provided someone else fights it; particularly when that enthusiasm is undimmed by personal experience with war; most emphatically when that lack of experience came in spite of ample opportunity in that person’s youth.”

    ¿Comprende?

    And what’s up with “perjorative”? .. you have mispelled it a second time … it’s PEJORATIVE

    I’m not sure what you’re challenging here … we’ve been lied to in the past by our government (Republicans or Dems). My point was that lies can be pulled off successfully … at least for certain periods of time … even decades. I have questions and you don’t. Even though you’re not accusing me, I will tell you that I’m not less patriotic than you, I’m not less American than you, I fought (literally) in a war … I have that experience … and that experience makes my questions truly important to me in the sense that no one should have to risk their lives over lies. I don’t enjoy being labeled a “conspiracy theorist”, and my life experiences have taught me that the usual suspects who are screaming “unpatriotic!” and “conspiracy theorist” … “lefty!”, “moonbat!” and whatever else .. are usually Chickenhawks.

    You seem to be a good supporter of George W. Bush and a believer in our government’s “word” … are you presently in the military? Already served in the military? Retired military? If you’re “talkin’ the talk”, I would imagine that you’ve “walked the walk”.

    “This We’ll Defend”

  • Venice-13

    A little anecdote by Robert Fisk:

    “I don’t think there’s going to be democracy in the Middle East and I don’t
    really think we want democracy. One of the problems of democracy in the
    Middle East is that, if it really exists, the Arabs may not do what we want them to do, and it’s much more easy to have dictators, generals, businessmen running countries on our behalf.”

  • SFC SKI

    The opinion of a man able to inspire his own verb is definitely worth listening to. MAybe if he got hit with a few more rocks he’d feel better.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Deny what? The one sentence that could mean anything in the report?

    Most people use the DSM to say Bush/Blair lied… if you don’t think they lied, then fine. But the claim they lied is wrong.

    And I’ve been in the military yes. Believer in the word? Dunno, jury is still out. Disbeliever in the knee-jerk response to anything that can be spun against Bush… sure.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com andy marsh

    How did we get from the outrageous bullshit story of the towers being a controlled demolition to the downing street memos? Did you give up on defending one irrational thought with another?

    violations of international law? Why is it that liberals and whackos only worry about international law when it suits them?

  • hdhntr

    Since the north tower fell in less than 9.2 seconds (free fall time, in a vacuum), then I think it’s fair to say that controlled demolition is proven and is the truth, regardless of what some people will or will not accept as reality.

  • Venice-13

    andy marsh:

    Perhaps if you actually read the comments, then you’d know how we can get from one topic to another. I shouldn’t have to explain it to you, but … Bambenek and another mentioned that a secret could NOT be kept by two or more people.

    Bambenek:

    You are a troll. Girl Scouts does NOT count as military service. Your little knowledge is more dangerous than no knowledge at all. You’re more concerned with provoking than offering genuine argument. You have phished for comments against Israel, and you have phished for comments against Bush. Bush doesn’t need anyone to criticize him … he does an excellent job of revealing his own stupidity.

    The quest for political power is behind 9/11 … and Iraq. It’s Bush’s ambition, but he’s definitely NOT the brains behind the execution of the agenda.

    Whose “military” were you in??? When??? Your life was obviously never on the line, otherwise you’d have a respect for life.

  • Splat

    I read a lot here, agreed with some and disagreed with a lot. One thing I do know is that when I saw the damage to the Pentagon I was horrified to see that the the floors of the Pentagon above where the wings next to the main body of the plane hit was still intact. I have seen many news stories of plane crashes and never have I seen one report on the news or on the Internet that the plane didn’t leave debris and parts all over the place. And I mean BIG PARTS. Also every plane crash I saw left the ground torn apart. But not at the pentagon site. Nothing not even a scratch. All I saw there was a hole that was too small for a big airliner like that to have hit. The second thing I do know is that you cannot take two weeks flying lessons on a single engine plane, use a flight sim and then pilot a big plane like that.
    Any one who believes that then I have some prime land in Texas I want to sell them.

    I walked the walk and talked the talked and served in war also in the front lines of Iraq. and believed every word they told me about why when and where. When I found out that the the reason I was over there was a BIG LIE then I got out of the Army. After 12 years I got out when my contract was finished. I was told that i had only eight years left to retire. I told them to keep it. It would of felt like Blood Money. Now I do not disrespect nor do I hold a grudge against those that still serve and I hold them deep in my heart for doing in what they believe and still respect them. I joined to serve my Nation not the Oil Lords and the stock Barons in the US. Or Kuwait . I joined to defend my country not help someone make a couple extra billion dollars to put into his pocket.

  • Splat

    Hey TJ I know you don’t know me. But I think that we could get along. Breathe deep and dont look for a bottle of liquid squech.

  • Splat

    Not I am not on anyones side but my own

  • http://www.mommifer.com/ Mommifer

    terrorist blew up the twin towers, period.

  • hdhntr

    Which terrorists? And if the 19 monkey bar swinging misfits, are you saying they are also demo experts who had unfettered access to the WTC complex in the weeks or months prior, in order to place the demolition charges?

  • Splat

    hell most of those so called terrorist were from Saudi, and 6 or more of them are or were still alive weeks after what happened to the twin towers. I believe also that they caught on a airport security camera one of the terrorist going through the airport. Funny tho that the bomb sniffing devices that were shown on the the two side of the terrorist were not even being used at that time or had been put into place in that airport.

  • Splat

    Girl Scouts does NOT count as military service

    Anyone who makes a statement that Girl Scouts have anything to do with the Military is really in another world and should stop glue sniffing. This statement is not ment to be provocative its just a fact

  • http://www.positiontoknow.com/S-11/vid/2ndPlaneCrash.mpeg irishdrifter

    Please watch this Mpeg, then watch it again frame by frame!!

    Watch the camerman pan hard left when he catches the 2nd craft coming out of the smoke, then he has a peek to see if its gone.

    Oh, yes and watch the ‘airplane’ launch a missile just before impact!

  • Splat

    what the address of the megpeg

  • splat

    I got it thanks yes I have watch it at lease 50 times and I am still horrified everytime i see it

  • Splat

    You know at the angle that the second plane hit that building if it was goin to fall it should of fell over on its side

  • HW Saxton

    I think that there was another plane,CIA
    of course, hiding just beyond the grassy
    knoll. This plane was ready to wisk the foreign ex pats out of the country just
    after the towers fell.

  • HW Saxton

    These conspiracy theories and theorists really do push beyond the limits of the imagination I must admit. How is it that everyone saw exactly the same damn thing that morning but now,some four yrs
    later all this is coming out???

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Venice-

    Obviously because I have a differing opinion than you I’m evil. Obviously I want to kill everybody.

    I have nothing constructive to offer? All I see from you is personal attacks.

  • hdhntr

    What is interesting, is that the whole thing, including the collapse of the twin towers was caught on video tape, and in some case by still photos showing the south tower plane on final approach.

    Many of these source videos were not shown again on the mass media channels, so what most people have, is nothing but a memory of what they think they saw.

    More closely scrutinized, however, and these videos and photos show something else altogether, not the least of which are the clips which show the towers collapsing in 10-11 and 8-9 seconds respectively, along with multiple explosions and demolition ‘squibs’.

    Evidence which also hasn’t been given any airtime since is the fact, that there were multiple war games under way that day, one of which involved, get this, the use of simulated hijacked aircraft crashing into the WTC, and they were running ON 9/11.

    Wake up and do some research. Yes, it’s hard to fathom at first but it’s true – infinitely moreso than the bogus official version of events which everything quickly twisted into, and which has been dished out to an unsuspecting public ever since.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Link to videos? I’m sure I can see it somewhere in this thread… but we are pushing 400 comments. :)

    It doesn’t explain the fact that the police helicopter reported the glowing of the WTC core and informed police to get out, and the fact that the fire department didn’t get that message was played up as a problem afterwards.

    What was the glowing?

  • hdhntr

    In the glowing in the glowing come sing and be merry (around)

  • hdhntr

    This glowing?
    here
    here
    here

    Sorry, I don’t know how to link a link. Don’t know the tags for it. Maybe you could come along and clean it up for me. Call them glowing 123456

  • hdhntr
  • Venice-13

    To Bambenek:
    I’m glad you have opinions, I don’t care if they’re different than mine. Who said you >>>>“want to kill everybody” ? See, there you go again.

    You would NOT see personal attacks from me if you did contort everything I say. When you fabricate things and attribute it to me, I happen to see that as attacking me personally.

    You’re original article/commentary has evoked some critical questions. The number of follow-up comments is not a reflection of your writing ability, but rather the seriousness of the topic. There’s no crime in asking questions to seek the truth.

    HW Saxton: >>>“some four yrs later all this is coming out???”

    Where have you been? Inquiring minds were asking questions from the moment it happened. Just because you didn’t hear the questions on CNN and FOX doesn’t mean they weren’t being asked.

    Splat: There are loads of videos regarding 9/11

    HERE

    or here: http://question911.com/links.php

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Venice-

    “otherwise you’d have a respect for life.”

    That doesn’t sound like you are saying I want people to live…

    If all you got is personal attacks, why don’t you do us a favor and stop posting… I mean I like the comment count going up and all, but you aren’t adding much.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    hdh-

    None of those pictures deal with the core of the building glowing…

    Also, how do I know they weren’t doctored?

  • Splat

    I have looked at a lot in my life and have done research of several items. No Official research but research it was.
    The conclusion I have come to in most cases is that people either good or bad generally do not want to hear the truth about something especially when it deals their personal lives in the event it might upset it at the time. It is true that when two people view something that they have opposite views and there should almost always be an opposite opinion to the subject. But there are incidents that have happened in American history and certain people have downplayed and even changed the story to fit there way of thinking. Case of point. I know that this blog is on 911 but the a single case of mine comes to my head is this. In 1990 a Kuwait woman went before congress and swore that the Iraq soldiers took babies out of the incubators in a hospital and threw them on the floor and stole the machines. This made me angry. Well it wasn’t until several years later that I found out that that woman had lied to congress. This woman also could not be prosecuted for lying because she was the daughter of a Kuwait Diplomat and she had diplomatic immunity.
    This was a set by a multimedia firm in NewYork. Yes the news article here even showed the company but they declined comment or an interview. Isn’t funny how things just suddenly disappear. Like our rights and other freedoms. No I am not on the right or left or a liberal, but I do tend to listen to all sides and try to research the subject as best as I can and then make a decision. It’s really is a shame that congress (yes I am calling it by the ugly headed snake that it is) cannot do the job that it was designed to do. There are numerous reasons on the web and on this blog site in why i say this. OH sorry about getting off the subject.

    As someone stated earlier

    These conspiracy theories and theorists really do push beyond the limits of the imagination I must admit. How is it that everyone saw exactly the same damn thing that morning but now,some four yrs
    later all this is coming out???

    Coming out 4 years later? Oh no my friend they have been out there the whole time. I started to see web sites going up all the time and over the period of time they disappeared.
    I wrote to one site that I had visited several times when it went down, the person wrote back saying he had never had a site up about 9/11.

  • Splat

    Never become angry at your opponent even at the onslaught of personal attacks. Never go down to his level but bring him up to yours.

    By: Ronald LaRue 1990

    I found this on a website many years ago and have kept it with me all these years.

  • Splat

    Emotions run high when people are confronted with the truth either good or bad. But the general public will almost never believe something if it conflicts with what they believe.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com/ andy marsh

    I’ve done some research myself and I’ve come to the conclusion that there are a ton of whackos in the world!

    I have another conspiracy for you…that guy you called dad all those years….better talk to mom about him…

  • Venice-13

    Bambenek:

    Stop distorting my comments. You are attacking me … personally by doing that.

    I don’t think you’re adding much. Disagreeing is one thing … and is acceptable. Stifling comments and distorting what others say is something else … and is not considered good netiquette.

    Do you seriously believe that you’re speaking for everyone who has posted here?

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Venice-

    I’m not distoring your comments, I’m confronting you with them, and in some cases, verbatim.

    I’m not speaking for anyone but myself and have never made a claim to, your attempts to make it seem that way aside.

    You’ve attacked me personally, you’ve said I have no respect for life. You’ve said that my military service was really in the Girl Scouts.

    Get over it, all you are doing here is flaming. Don’t copmlain when someone sticks your face in the piles you’re leaving all over the place.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Splat-

    Instead of denigrating people who don’t agree as saying they refuse to confront the truth because of emotional barriers, how about you make your case instead…

    Gnosticism doesn’t fly here.

  • irishdrifter

    No Barnbenck, we the 911 truth people, haven’t had our heads buried in our asses, like most for four years. We have been screaming about it day after day for the last 4 years.

  • irishdrifter

    Saxton, I take it you believe the Government Version. Now there’s a conspricy theory if ever i saw one.

    19 invisible arabs take over 4 airplanes in US airspace using ‘boxcutters’. They turn off all the transponders, which somehow also made them invisible on secondary radar. They then managed to overpower all on board with invisible guns and knives that they somehow secreted on board, and didnt leave any trace on any of the Airports security cameras. They then flew 4x 767-200’s un-aided through US airspace for an hour and a half without being intercepted – even thought they forgot their flight manuals printed in Arabic and their Korans – possibly the two most important items necessary to carry out their ‘divine mission’.

    After skimming by a couple of Nuclear power stations they found their targets – which just happened to be where records of the biggest corporate swindle in history happened to be housed.

    Somewhere in mid flight they attached missiles to the 767’s which can be seen clearly being fired prior to imapct.

    Somehow the lead hijackers passport that was in his pocket in the cockpit, flies out the window of the airplane during the napalm explosion and lands 4 blocks away undamaged.

    After hitting the 90th floor of the buildings, (each floor was an acre in size), they raced down to the sub-basement and planted several earthquake bombs, or a mini nuke which was seen exploding on several News sites that day. The mini nukes send a shock wave up through the building causing 500,000 cubic metres of concrete to turn to 40 micron particle dust.

    They then turn up alive the next day.

    Ahahaha.

    There is one born every minute.
    You must have been the only fool born that day.

    There is not one word of the ‘official conspiracy theory’ that stands up to scrutiny.

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    If that were the official story, it wouldn’t stand up. But in fact beyond the 19 hijackers with boxcutters, everything else is a fabrication. No guns, no knives, no missles, no nukes, no miraculous resurrections, none of it.

    The story is more like this: eight years after an attack on the WTC involving a van bomb, nineteen hijackers (one was detained) took over airplanes by taking hostages with box-cutter razor blades to their necks. In three cases they succeeded in their mission to fly the planes into pre-chosen targets, while in the fourth passengers had learned enough to know that there was no chance of survival, and took the plane down away from its intended target. It isn’t complicated, or surprising once you realize that these hijackings weren’t like previous hijackings.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com/ andy marsh

    Phillip – why you gotta burst their bubble like that???

  • http://selfaudit.blogspot.com Aaman

    Actually, they slipped into the “24” universe via a warp-hole, where missiles can fly for hours without being detected on radar, and the rematerialized right in front of the buildings.

  • hdhntr

    Bambenek,

    Original videos, and still photos, from original sources, indluding CNN and newspapers and magazines. Entirely verifyable. Try renting NOVA, Why The Towers Fell and then slowing down the footage, or, if you care to, please watch In Plane Site, which you can access from the video website link offered above.

    I have never heard of the helicopter reporting a “glowing core”. Hard to imagine that they would be able to see “the core” or that it would be glowing along the entire length of the building’s structure, which is what would be required to explain the collapse in the absense of explosives – that the whole building, just, umm…simply gave up the ghost and collapsed at the rate of free fall in a vacuum along the entire length of the structure of the building, starting with a glow, maybe one of embarassment or anger, having been abused by the planes as such..

  • Splat

    In the beginning:
    Ah! I like that phrase.
    The French took over a little country called Viet Nam. They did little things to the people and the people raised up against them and started kicking their butts. Then the French asked their friends the Americans to help them. The Americans wanted too but they couldn’t because they didn’t have a reason. Then they found one. A US American ship was hit and sunk I believe off the coast of North Viet Nam. So this gave them the reason to enter the war. Now we find out many years later that there was NO SHIP SUNK and it was all a fabrication. People tried to tell everyone at that time that the ship was not and had not been sunk or damaged, nor had anyone even fired at it, to include the Captain of that ship that had radioed back saying that everything was okay. But do you think that people wanted to believe it or listen? No they didn’t. Now they had a reason to enter the war. Now my dad fought honorable there against an emery that the US fabricated. YES LIED ABOUT. OH! I’m sorry people don’t like to be called liars, they just stretch the truth a little. But I wonder what novel they got the truth out of. But my dad would not believe you even if you put the evidence in his face to prove it to him God Rest his Soul. Now you say ( not talking to anyone in general) well why did the war last so long. Well maybe if you looked into the military archives in some library on an Army post they you might find that the Name of Dixie comes up a lot and a lot of other names also. NO not the flag or the southern region of the US either. But they probably got those documents also.

  • B. Lyle

    For an administration that is as prone to making stupid mistakes as the current one is, I fing this all to hard to swallow. They can’t even tell a damn
    story or lie with any believability,yet we are supposed to believe that they were the masterminds of the simultaneous
    murders of over three thousand americans
    and did this without leaving any trace whatsoever? I’ve read through theory after theory after theory and still the most believable one is that this is the work of hijackers who took advantage of the weakness in airline security in the pre 9/11 world. I’m not saying that I think the story the Govt. has provided is 100% on the up and up only that it sounds like slightly less full of shit than the rest of what I’ve read. For every theory put forth here and to which was answered by scientific knowledge and logic, many of the posters keep on coming up with even more
    insane theories as to why it could be so.

  • splat

    I keep hearing that the fuel from the airplanes that was burning cause the steel to melt and that’s the reason the building came down. Hmmmm…. I didn’t know that kerosene which is used in big planes could generate enough heat to melt steel like that. Considering that the whole beam of steel had to be hot to even bend, but to bend all the steel rods to cause a collapse? Hmmmmm…. Now for my reference to kerosene here is one of many pages on the subject. Hopefully this page won’t disappear in a few weeks like so many I used to have.
    http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/oct98/905659586.Ch.r.html
    Now you say (not talking to anyone in general) what has that got to with anything. I learned that there are the three rules of truth ,also gotten from the website of of an earlier post from R.L.

    The Three Laws of Truths by: R.L.
    1.Real truth: What really and actually happened.
    2.Perceived truth: What was perceived to be the truth. As in what someone believes is the truth whether it is or not.
    3.Damage control truth: Information that is disseminated out over time and time again to make others believe the information is creditable and factual. the look for the answers and then make a decision. Here is another site anyone interested might want to read.

  • HW Saxton

    After carefully reading this thread from
    beginning to end I can only say it is the silliest argument since: “Can God Beat Superman In A Fight?” After much TV watching of the event, reading of the
    numerous conspiracies,etc, the only one plot that seems to make sense is what really happened. Some Arab knuckleheads with a Jihad bent hijacked some of our
    airliners and crashed them suicide-style
    into some very prominent buildings.That
    is something any idiot could have done given the chance and opportunity.I think
    anything beyond that seems to be for the
    aluminum hat set to ponder and think about.

  • irishdrifter

    Please read this :

    Why Did the Trade Center Skyscrapers Collapse?

    by Morgan Reynolds

    and listen to this :

    Greg Symanski and a Survivor’s tale on Alex Jones. This is hot!!

  • Splat

    I hope your not referring to me.. First yes I am new to this tread. This is not the first time I have asked or posted questions on this matter but it is the first time on here. There are so many things I wish I could say but can’t and if I could you would not believe them even if I put the cold hard evidence in your hand. No theories but facts you still would not and could not believe. Just as the others, some were my friends and some were family members. Yes I say were because when I put the hard cold facts in their hands they didn’t believe either and then either they stopped being friends or in case of family members they just stopped talking. I used to put the facts in their hands and they still didn’t believe so I quit trying to prove something a long time ago. and here I am just asking questions. I hope that I have not offended anyone here.

    And as a report of a helicopter reporting a glow that’s a new one on me. Never heard that one.

  • Eric Olsen

    thanks HW, you boiled down over 400 comments to a paragraph

  • hdhntr

    Forget it. I suppose we are simply to accept on face value, because that is what we’ve been told, that Hani Hanjour, though he couldn’t even fly a cessna solo, navigated to the Pentagon, and wheeled the plane around at well over 500MPH to the side opposite Rummy and the Joint Chiefs, skimmed an overpass, and then, without leaving any marks on the grass, or any major wreckage to speak of, plunged a Boeing 767 into a 14 foot hole in the outer Pentagon wall, and furthermore, that the twin towers, after being hit by a plane of a size similar to that which they were designed to easily withstand, and, after buring for less than one hour, collapsed, AT THE RATE OF FREE FALL IN A VACUUM, from top, to bottom as a result of a structural “pancake” collapse??????

    C’mon. Let’s be reasonable here and be committed to the truth at all cost, except to the truth and reality itself, no matter how painful is the conclusion that simply must be drawn.

  • hdhntr

    Bottom line, the official story is utterly absurd and anyone, capable of rational thought and a modicum of scientific inquiry, will not liken this discussion to that of “Can God Beat Superman In A Fight?”

    Totally rediculous.

    Simply because the moral implications of 911 being some type of new Pearl Harbor, are hard to take, is no reason to discard reality, in favour of a totally false and completely absurd view of the facts in this case.

    Please.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com andy marsh

    All I can say when Iread that last comment is…wow…he really believes all that shit!??!?

  • Splat

    The point is this before I Leave this thread/ blog there are those out there that would enslave you faster then you can believe, and are enslaving people everyday. You say the slave trade is dead. It is if you live in the USA because you don’t receive the news except what they want you to have. LOL now I receive my news from several different countries and then make a decision on what I hear or read. Not just the channels that are allowed in the states and are censored. Yes they are heavily censored. How do I know? lol No I am not going to prove it to you you would not believe. But the point is this, there are those that do not want you to believe anything except what they tell you and want you to believe. Their truth and over the years with your Prozac and other drugs you have become accustomed to what they want you to know and believe and that makes us a danger to them for we know the truth or we are at lease searching for it and they are afraid. If we tell too many people then they might start to think straight and believe also.
    The truth is out there and it is being written on the walls everywhere but then comes someone and whitewashes it.

    NO don’t discuss what appends or what they tell you, believe it all.
    They came for the Gypsies and I said and did nothing.
    They came for the Romanians and I said and did nothing.
    They came for the Jews and still I said and did nothing.
    Then they came for me and there weren’t anyone left to say anything.

  • splat

    Well said hthntr

  • Eric Olsen

    I have seen the light

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    Yes, the government has lied before. Yes, the government will lie again. This isn’t the Vietnam war, this isn’t a story of something that happened somewhere else. It’s something we all saw happen in real-time.

    Yes, there are profound warnings about not missing the signs of trouble. That doesn’t mean that every event that doesn’t tie up with a neat bow is the onset of the fourth reich.

    Yes, there are malevolent people who seek power. That doesn’t mean they’re behind every bad thing that happens.

    After all, there are also armies of jihadists that have twisted Islam into a concept that supports their ambition to destroy the United States (and later, all non-Islamic nations).

    It’s Occam’s Razor. You’ve heard of this? Google it, and you’ll find what I’ve been saying since this thread began. The goal is to find the simplest explanation that fits the facts. It’s no good saying that “this fact doesn’t fit” unless you’ve got a simpler explanation that fits the facts. So far all of the proposals other than “Saudis and others hijacked planes to finish what was started in 1993″ have been far more complex and don’t fit the facts any better (usually much, much worse).

    Occam’s Razor. Learn it, live it, love it.

  • Eric Olsen

    very eloquent Phillip and I might add, sometimes shit happens that seems unlikely. Statistically it happens all the time. If you guys need a cause, there are plenty of real problems in the world, even real conspiracies

  • Venice-13

    Phillip Winn in Comment 404 says,
    >>>” .. hijackers … took over airplanes by taking hostages with box-cutter razor blades to their necks.”

    How many calls from passengers/crew mentioned “box cutters”? Is “box cutters” that common of an expression or name for a stabbing/slicing instrument? Would that name come to mind before using the word “knife”?

    In flight attendant Betty Ong’s call, she mentions people having been “stabbed” (and gas having been sprayed making an area unbreathable).

    How much success have you had with making calls from airliners?

    I thought the 9/11 commission stated that passengers calling from cell phones noted the use of box cutters on only one flight. Why do we hear about “box cutters” on all the flights? Did the hijackers take over “airplanes” (plural) with box cutters?

    Doesn’t anyone want to fathom a guess as to why one hijacker’s passport is found (intact) several blocks from impact … and the virtually indesctructable black boxes aren’t found?

  • hdhntr

    In terms of the visual and photographic evidence, and some other stuff, I made a rather extension presentation at the discussion in the comments section over at
    http://voxday.blogspot.com/2005/06/truth-will-out.html

    Didn’t hold back too much, though there’s so much more to cover on this issue, so many holes in the official story, but some things you need to see with your own eyes, from the recorded in real time, first hand video and photographic evidence, that what we THOUGHT we saw that does is not in fact what is there, when you take a closer look and slow some of the videos down..

  • hdhntr

    Sorry for the unlinked link.. :-(

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    hdh-

    Many planes include phones in the seats that word pretty well, if you don’t mind paying $5/min :)

    I know boxcutters is a common expression in this neck of the woods, don’t know about the northeast though. And that description could have caught hold because some reporter used it and everyone followed along.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    200 or so more comments guys, then I can be the #2 post. :)

  • Nick Jones

    “What is obscene is that 3000 innocent Americans died…”

    Au contraire, NJT. I don’t know the national makeup of the plane passengers, but I did once see a list of the nationalities of the WTC victims, and it was a veritable UN mixture, including British, French, Israeli, Saudi Arabian, et al., besides the inevitable American victims.

    Unfortunately, I didn’t bookmark the page where I saw it. If anyone can provide me a link, I’d appreciate it.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    [sarcasm]

    Nick, everyone knows the Jews were tipped off hours before to get out of town

    [/sarcasm]

  • irishdrifter

    Thats why only one of those 3000 dead was a jew. In Manhattan?? In the WTC? Gimme a break. Odigo.

  • hdhntr

    See, now Bush has linked, again and again and again and again and again (it’s Rove’s NLP anchor) 9/11 with the Iraq conflict.

    Well, if we in the 9/11 truth movement have our way, that ‘mental modal’ contextual frame of reference, is going to turn the tables on these criminals, these mass murderers in a real hurry.

    No justification.

    ZERO.

    That’s a war crime by definition, an unjust war.

    And get this – the ONLY justification, is 9/11, and most of us know what that’s all about..

    Do you believe these people?

    They can craft their words any way they like, but there’s no getting around the deeds.

    “You will know them by their fruits.”

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    They are linked. Even the Left understands the link.

    I forget which columnist said it but if we can pull of democracy in Iraq, Al Qaeda is done. You know why Americans don’t strap bombs to themselves or take up arms (besides being obese), because most people are fat dumb and happy. We don’t care if the rich get richer, as long as we get some too. The irony is that the rich elite can get richer in free cultures than in tyrannical ones.

    But three justifications for jihad exist for Al Qaeda:

    1) Our presence in Suadi Arabia (because of Iraq)
    2) Starving Iraqi children in Iraq
    3) Israel.

    Well, sure, they’d still be around over Israel, but 1 + 2 set Al Qaeda apart from say Hezbollah. Iraq War I and the aftermath made Iraq War II inevitable (but I don’t consider them seperate wars, but that’s an aside). France and the UN looted the Iraqi people, leaving us holding the blame, and we got hit on 9/11 for it.

    Maybe it would have happened anyway, maybe not. But there sure was alot of recruiting done based on it.

  • hdhntr

    You really lap it all up don’t you?

    Have you not been reading, or evaluating, or thinking..

    “France and the UN looted the Iraqi people, leaving us holding the blame, and we got hit on 9/11 for it.”

    eyeroll

  • hdhntr

    “Al Qaeda” is name coined by someone like Kissenger or Berzinsky for a loosely scattered group of non-affiliated or at best loosely associated terrorist cells or groups.

    “Al Qaeda” is little more than a made up entity to serve as the Bush and gang’s “base of operations”, and you bought it, and still do, even now that you are one would think, a little more enlightened on the subject of 911 being something radically other than what we’ve been led to believe.

    The Big Lie.

    Man Hitler was right about that.

    Unblievable, what smart people like you will actually believe and then continue to cling on to at seemingly any cost, even to reality itself.

    Hint: There is no “Al Qaeda” per se. It’s a made up name, a bogeyman.

  • hdhntr

    Bush even quoted Bin Laden tonight! LOL

    And he referenced 9/11 8 times, attempting to link it to Iraq.

    “Al Qaeda” Give me a break.

    Hello? How old are you?

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Ok, how is me citing Oil-For-Food me not evaluating…

    Have you read anything Al Qaeda puts out?

  • Karl Jackson

    “After carefully reading this thread from
    beginning to end I can only say it is the silliest argument since: “Can God Beat Superman In A Fight?” After much TV watching of the event, reading of the
    numerous conspiracies,etc, the only one plot that seems to make sense is what really happened. Some Arab knuckleheads with a Jihad bent hijacked some of our
    airliners and crashed them suicide-style
    into some very prominent buildings.That
    is something any idiot could have done given the chance and opportunity.I think
    anything beyond that seems to be for the
    aluminum hat set to ponder and think about.”

    Right. Stick your head back in the sand.
    In your reading, you apparently missed all the facts and observations that show that the official story is patently absurd. You accept both their claims and the utter lack of evidence to back them up with a shrug.
    You don’t attempt to ask or answer a single question, including why evidence was removed and destroyed, you make no mention of the wargames of 9/11 (unlike a certain former US Congresswoman), or how “any idiot” could fly a commercial airliner on a deviant course over the most protected airspace in America for an hour without anything happening. you don’t offer or ask for a single piece of proof that the 19 hijackers actually existed, or that OBL had anything to do with it.
    Here, have your Kool-Ade. You’ve earned it.

    /Oh Yeah!

  • Karl Jackson

    >>>Many planes include phones in the seats that word pretty well, if you don’t mind paying $5/min :)

    Yeah, John. But if you did your homework,you’d know that most of those calls were reported to have been placed on normal cellphones. From cruising altitude. Not Satphones.
    Try it. It doesn’t work.

    “Mom, this is your son, Mark Bingham.”
    “You believe me, don’t you?”

    Tell me, John. When was the last time you called your mom with:

    “Mom, this is your son, John Bambenek”?

  • splat

    There is only one chemical composition I know of that can destroy steel at such a high rate that could melt steel at that rate. The Military uses it to destroy Vehicles in war when a vehicle breaks down so it won’t fall into the hands of the emery. It called Termite. No I don’t know what its made of but I have seen it used. It does a very good job. And yes with enough it could bring down a large building. Termite burns a long time. Now if you were an expert and you made a statement about something and someone else came along and told you to shut your mouth because if you didn’t…. Well…… guess what? Then someone else comes along and questions that expert about what they said, that expert would just deny it. NO matter how you can prove that the expert said what they said.

    There are those that believe and those that can’t. Then there are those that the only reason to have a blog is to make money and to make money is to keep the conversation going. LOL. How many more post here to get this blog to be number two or number one. :) All the information about 911 is there to come to a conclusion. Its a shame that the Govt ahh no strike that there is no govt. just another gang running a country. If you don’t believe that. Well The Government is elected by the people to handle the affairs of the people but this govt was not elected oh yes I know we had a vote but it was done on Machines made by one of the largest supporters of the person that got elected.

  • splat

    Ah sorry about that just rambling again Damn I need to stay on the subject.

  • Splat

    Ah! mom it’s me George. George Washington. You know me the first president. The guy with his face on the dollar bill. Your second son. the leader of the nation. Yep I do it all the time.LOL Hell how would she know who she was talking to If I didn’t tell her. Hell I can call anywhere with a cell phone cruising in a plane. I just look for the nearest retrans station and point my cell phone towards it and presto I call. Hmmmm I thought that you had to have a retrainsmitter at lease 50 to 100 meters away to call. Ah yes If I understand it correctly.

  • splat

    a correction a cell not a transmitter. cell phone transmits to cells that retransmit to retransmitter.

  • Splat

    Ah retract the statement about distances between cells
    Doing a little research on it.

  • nobody cares

    It’s THERMITE.

    Termites are bugs.

  • Splat

    LOL yes I know the difference and thanks for the correction. Well it could of been termites, maybe not, then again, naaa

  • irishdrifter

    “Have you read anything Al Qaeda puts out?”

    Not until after it’s translated from Israeli. There is no such thing as Al-Queda. It’s a CIA/Mossad inspired Bogeyman!

    Bush mentioned “terrorists” 31 times.
    911 twice, Bin Ladin 8 times.

    Remember the “Rivers of Blood” Video?

    Mmmmmehhhh, mmmehhhh, mmehhhh!!

  • splat

    Bush quote “Americans security depends on sacrifice” Does that mean that Bush’s son or daughter should join the the armed services and be stationed in Iraq. Maybe if the President and the congress along with the American senate were to have there son’s and daughter’s join the military and go to Iraq maybe things would change. BUT THAT’S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    Wow, so now we get into the long-discredited “The Jews knew!” crap (at least they acknowledge the death of one Jew, that’s progress), we find out that Al Queda doesn’t exist (despite years of paper trail prior to 9/11, extending through multiple Presidental administrations), questions about proper conversational etiquette from people who are told to call their families and tell them that they’re going to die (I talk to my mom all the time, but there are lots of adults who haven’t spoken to their parents in years, but when threatened by hijackers would have no other “family” to call), and so on. Again, Occam’s Razor is ignored.

    What’s the alternative? Al Queda is completely made up, and a well-documented paper trail existed for years and years prior to 9/11, just in case a bogeyman was needed later? The Mossad contacted Jewish people and told them not to fly on 9/11? It wasn’t really Mark Bingham on that plane at all, but a trained voice actor?

    Come on guys, this isn’t difficult. Just try for a minute or two to consider the alternative theory. Write it all up, all at once, and read it to yourself.

  • irishdrifter

    Im not anti-Semitic, but I do hate people who use it to discredit other’s simply on the basis that they have no other argument.

    Israeli False Flag Attacks

    Israeli versus US in IRAQ

  • irishdrifter

    “Al Queda is completely made up, and a well-documented paper trail existed for years and years prior to 9/11, just in case a bogeyman was needed later?”

    Correct and right. Now you have the idea!

    How else would the USA invade the Middle East? Where all the oils at.

    There is not one person in jail anywhere in the world for being a member of Al-Quida. And rightly so. There are several being held illegally in US torture centers such as Guantanamo where 14 year old Afghani boys are being held, some up to 4 years.

    America is a disgrace to humanity.

    You can get off your moral high horse now, John Wayne is long dead.

  • Eric Olsen

    shine on you crazy diamond

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Torture centers? If you think what goes on at Gitmo is a torture center I don’t think you know what torture is. Spitting on a man’s holy book sure isn’t it.

    If there is no Al Qaeda, who’s pputting out all those videos? Is it really the Mossad that’s cpturing people and cutting off their heads?

    Are we really holding Jews at Gitmo?

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Karl-

    So either family members are too stupid to recognize their own families or that they decided to react to the death of their families members by joining the conspiracy that killed them?

    The “Let’s Roll” woman, is she lying or stupid?

  • irishdrifter

    “If there is no Al Qaeda, who’s pputting out all those videos? Is it really the Mossad that’s capturing people and cutting off their heads?”

    See, you bought it, lock, stock and barrel didnt you?

    That is exactly correct – Mossad is responsible for the beheading videos.

    The Iraqis had to be dis-credited because the war was/is illegal. It had to look like the US were fighting the “evil” Iraqis.

    They are not evil. They are on the most part deeply kind and devout people who are fighting for their inalienable rights and freedoms.

    Anyways back to 911, heres Dov Zakheims contribution :

    Dov Zakheim

  • Eric Olsen

    please, someone shut the door to the loony bin, the escapees are bothering the civilians

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com/ andy marsh

    It’s YOUR bin EO…you have to close it!

  • Eric Olsen

    I’m perfectly content with the discussion continuing as long as periodically someone says “By the way, it happened the way it apears to have happened”

  • http://selfaudit.blogspot.com Aaman

    They are not evil. They are on the most part deeply kind and devout people who are fighting for their inalienable rights and freedoms.

    By blowing their brothers up? Why not try fighting at the polls? Or through the airwaves?

    In the general sense, one agrees with your point, however – about the Iraqi people

  • irishdrifter
  • irishdrifter

    “Why not try fighting at the polls? Or through the airwaves?”

    They are not blowing their brothers up. Get away from Faux news!!

    They dont want to vote – they want to kick the US Terrorists and British Scum out of their country.
    Simple.

  • irishdrifter

    So China invades the USA tomorrow you want to set up a radio station??

    This is the absurdity in the minds of Americans. They think that they actually have the right to go invade someone elses country on a whim.

    Bush sold you a pig in a poke. America is now the most hated country in the world. Are you happy about that?#

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com/ andy marsh

    I am… icould give a shit what the rest of the world thinks of us! That’s why I AM the ugly American!

  • http://selfaudit.blogspot.com Aaman

    I think in some circles, Sudan, Pakistan, North Korea, all those TPLARs (Tinpot little African Republics – Yes Minister), Tajikistan are more hated.

    In fact, here is one list of the worst countries

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Irish-

    Are you serious? We didn’t invade on a whim. 14 months leadup until invasion isn’t a whim.

  • SFC SKI

    At no time were the Iraqis listed as a target of this war, hostilities were directed towards the regime of Saddam Hussein. The PResident was clear about that, as was the Pentagon, and most Americans are aware that the war was never about killing Iraqis, but removing Saddam from power. Find me one quote from a US Government official that proes otherwise.

    Outsidee of the insurgent detainees I have read about, the Iraqis I have spoken with are mostly good and devout people, willing to take on responsibility to bring about a stable, peaceful, sovereign, and democratic Iraq. The fact that many more of them came out to vote than join the insurgency in protst reinforces that.

    Iraq was a country populated by a subjugated people, most Americans cannot imagine just how totally their lives were dominated by the regime. Anyone who fails to at least hope for the best for the Iraqis is worthy only of conteempt. Any who support the terrorists trying to keep Iraq from gaining true dmocracy is even worse.

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    Wow. “Mossad is responsible for the beheading videos.” Just… wow.

    Forget Occam’s Razor (nobody paid any attention anyway). Try rational thought.

  • Schubstro

    Look, I’m new to this thread and I can understand why there is anger directed towards hdhntr and others in this topic. People will naturally do anything to uphold the established identitys they have created for themselves and others. People kill for this. For acceptance, to uphold the status-quo. And when certain people tell them that maybe they have been living a lie their whole lives (or the past 4 years), it’s not going to digest very easily. I personally was a upholder of the status-quo for about 17 years of my life, then gradually, I gained interest in exploring concepts ‘outside of the box’, if you will. One of them just so happened to be politics. What I have learned is that what you hear on a mass level is always distorted by the filtered minds of people plugged in to the social norms mostly bestowed upon us by tradition and fueled by the media. I guess what I am trying to say is to do yourself a favor, and consider different possibilities, instead of becoming a bear-trap for those that don’t agree with what is commonly held as ‘true’. I don’t believe in UFOs, bigfoot, shadow people, or any other things of that nature. I do belive in mass deception and conditioning, however. I’ve seen it’s effects. 911 is in that category. Please don’t confuse something this important with lowbrow entertainment. 911 was an inside job. I’d hate to believe it, but there is just too much evidence to think otherwise. Please consider the following statements from Mr. David Ray Griffin, a respected professor of theology. (If you can refute that below, along with all of the other mountains of evidence, then you can safely place me inside the ‘whacko conspiracy theorist’ box, if you haven’t already). And please, read it and read it with an open mind before coming back and shooting it down.

    “6. Evidence that US Officials Planned and Executed the Attacks
    The evidence for this fourth view consists largely of features of the attacks, in conjunction with behavior by US officials, that cannot be explained on the assumption that the attacks were planned and executed entirely by foreign agents. I will give four examples.
    The Military’s Failure to Prevent the Attacks and Its Changing Explanations: One feature of the attacks that suggests complicity by US officials is the twofold fact that the US military failed to prevent the attacks on 9/11 and then, since that time, has give us conflicting explanations for this failure. These changing stories suggest that the military has been trying to cover up the fact that a “stand-down” order was given on 9/11, canceling the military’s own standard operating procedures for dealing with possibly hijacked airplanes.
    It is clear that some agency—either the military or the FAA–failed to follow standard procedures on 9/11. When these procedures are followed, the FAA, as soon as it sees signs that a plane may have been hijacked, calls military officials, who then call the nearest air force base with fighters on alert, telling it to send up a couple fighters to intercept the plane. Such interceptions usually occur within 10 to 20 minutes after the first signs of trouble. This is a routine procedure, happening about 100 times a year.[26] (One of the many falsehoods in the recent debunking essay in Popular Mechanics is its claim that in the decade before 9/11, there had been only one interception, that of golfer Payne Stewart’s Learjet.[27] Actually, at about 100 a year, there would have been closer to 1,000 interceptions during that decade.) On 9/11, however, no interceptions occurred.
    Why not? The military’s first story was that no planes were sent up until after the Pentagon was hit. The military leaders were admitting, in other words, that they had left their fighters on the ground for almost 90 minutes after the FAA had first noticed signs of a possible hijacking. That story suggested to many people that a stand-down order had been given.[28]
    By the end of the week, the military had put out a second story, saying that it had sent up fighters but that, because the FAA had been very late in notifying it about the hijackings, the fighters arrived in each case arrived too late. One problem with this story is that if FAA personnel had responded so slowly, heads should have rolled, but none did. An even more serious problem is that, even assuming the truth of the late notification times, the military’s fighters still had time to intercept the hijacked airliners before they were to hit their targets.[29] This second story implied, therefore, that standard procedures had been violated by the military as well as the FAA.
    To try to defend the military against this accusation, The 9/11 Commission Report gave us, amazingly, a third version, according to which the FAA, after giving the military insufficient warning about the first hijacked airliner, gave it absolutely no notification of the other three until after they had crashed. But as I have argued in The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions, this account is wholly implausible. Besides portraying FAA personnel, from top to bottom, as incompetent dolts, the 9/11 Commission’s account rests on claims that contradict many credible and mutually supporting testimonies. In some of these cases, the fact that the Commission is simply lying is abundantly obvious.[30] In addition, this third story implies that the military’s second story, which it had been telling for almost three years, was almost entirely false. If our military leaders were lying to us all that time, why should we believe them now? And if our military is lying to us, must we not assume that it is doing so to cover up its own guilt?
    In sum, the behavior of the military both on 9/11 and afterwards, combined with the fact that the 9/11 Commission had to resort to lies to make the US military appear blameless, suggests that military leaders were complicit in the attacks. A similar conclusion follows from an examination of the attack on the Pentagon.
    The Strike on the Pentagon: One of the debates about this attack is whether the Pentagon was hit by American Airlines Flight 77, as the official account says, or by a military aircraft. Either story, however, implies that the attack was, at least partly, an inside job.
    If we assume that the Pentagon was struck by Flight 77, we must ask how this could have occurred. The Pentagon is surely the best defended building on the planet, for three reasons. First, it is only a few miles from Andrews Air Force Base, which has at least three squadrons that keep fighter jets on alert at all times to protect the nation’s capital. To be sure, part of the official story is that Andrews was not keeping any fighters on alert at that time. But as I argued in my critique of The 9/11 Commission Report, that claim is wholly implausible.[31]
    Second, the US military has the best radar systems in the world. One of its systems, it has bragged, “does not miss anything occurring in North American airspace.” This system is also said to be capable of monitoring a great number of targets simultaneously, as would be necessary in the case of a massive missile attack.[32] Given that capability, the official story, according to which Flight 77 flew toward the Pentagon undetected for 40 minutes, is absurd, especially at a time when the Pentagon knew the country was under attack. Any unauthorized airplane coming towards the Pentagon would have been detected and intercepted long before it got close.
    Third, the Pentagon is ringed by anti-missile batteries, which are programmed to destroy any aircraft entering the Pentagon’s airspace, except for any aircraft with a US military transponder.[33] If, by some fluke, Flight 77 had entered the Pentagon’s airspace, it could have escaped being shot down only if officials in the Pentagon had deactivated its anti-aircraft defenses.

    So, even if we accept the official story, according to which the Pentagon was hit by Flight 77 under the control of al Qaeda hijackers, we must conclude that the attack succeeded only because the Pentagon wanted it to succeed.”

    this quote was taken from;
    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0505/S00129.htm

    thanks for your time.

  • hdhntr

    The Janitor

    See, if the twin towers can in fact be proven beyond any doubt to have been brought down in a controlled demolition, than just what does that say precisely, about “it happened the way it apears to have happened” according to Occam’s Razor?

    What it states is that it did NOT happen the way it appears to have happened or the way they said it happened.

    For God sakes the Pentagon is protected by the world’s most sophisticated radar and anti-aircraft missile systems. Are some people here actually suggesting that Hani Hanjour, who could not even effectively pilot a cessna solo and who was woefully lacking in aviation and navigation skills, spent almost an hour piloting to the Pentagon, only to pull a maneuvour in spinning around to the opposite side, which professional pilots confess that they could hardly perform, to hit it, without there being any jets scrambled as per protocal, or without confronting any defensive measures of any kind?

    And here we have the twin towers, which fell at, or in the case of the north tower, slightly faster than the rate of absolute free fall in a vacuum, and still, even now, after reviewing this entire thread, we have bright people parroting the official story and talking about Osama bin Laden as the CEO head of a global terrorist organization called “Al Quaeda” meaning “the base”.

    Al Quaeda is nothing but the Bush admin and elites base of operations for the global domination project to protect US interests, and 9/11 is the easier softer way to carve a diagonal straight across the board.

    No diplomacy, no cooperation, and no Civility.

    How can any lasting and honourable structure and historical structural dynamic be founded upon a base of evil, projecting itself relative to a phantom?

    Oh there’s “terrorism” in Iraq now alright…

    Unfreakingbelievable that people are still toeing the line in terms of the official story.

    Shows just how powerful the “big lie” really is.

    Bush:
    “These men possess lethal weapons and are willing to committ any atrocity.”

    MIRROR!

    The only difference between the Bush MO, is having the luxury of being the bully with all the toys, thus he can claim the higher ground, but if founded on a lie and on barbaric acts of treason and murder, they are hardly moral. That’s not the Godly way.

    It’s an abomination against both God and mankind.

    I guess some of us are able to pierce the veil and some aren’t, holding to their pre-existing worldview like a small child to a teddy bear.

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    Schubstro, I’m glad you feel superior to those of us who can’t manage to break out of our mental cages to question the status quo. But you still haven’t done the first bit to answer my first and most basic question about all of this: Satisfy Occam’s Razor. Present a theory of “what happened” that makes more sense than the commonly accepted theory. I’ll wait.

    That’s all. Just one comprehensive theory, as simple or more simple than the commonly-believed theory that similar deals with the facts.

    It is not enough to make pronouncements while looking down the bridge of one’s nose, because that works both ways. I could easily say that people are not satisfied to accept that not everything happens neatly like television, and so waste their time inventing oddball conspiracies. That gets nowhere.

    It is not enough to pick holes in the status quo. THere are holes in everything. Given enough time, I could demonstrate problems with your life, or anyone’s life, and convince a significant group of people that you don’t even exist. I mean, Elvis’ tombstone had a mispelling, therefore Elvis is alive? And never mind the relatives I’ve met who saw him dead? It takes more than a mispelling on a tombstone for the alternative story to make sense. It takes more than a barely-singed passport.

    What is “absurd” to you in terms of radar can seem completely reasonable when you consider that all of our radar installations point out past our borders. The claims by a Bible prof about response time have been thoroughly debunked elsewhere, so I won’t bother, but the point is that it isn’t enough to pick holes in the status quo.

    Occam’s Razor: The simplest theory that fits the facts is probably the right one. So far all of the theories anyone has posted her have been self-contradictory or contradicted each other, made little or no sense, and were neither simple nor fit the facts.

    Come on — it shouldn’t be that hard.

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    hdhntr, why is it that you accept prima facie the testimony of someone whose subjective sense of time and limited point of view don’t line up with video evidence, etc, while ignoring what hundreds or thousands (or millions, via video) of witness saw?

    Does everything rest on the idea that this guy heard rumbling before he heard an impact? Could the rumbling have come from the North Tower, which was hit before the South? Could flames from an elevator shaft be from spilling burning jet fuel?

    Of course it all could. You choose to believe otherwise, but in order to do so you fail to ask important questions. Why did the explosions only affect the elevator shaft, and not anything else? Where did this rumbling he heard come from, exactly? He saw no explosions, despite being in the basement.

    And on and on it goes. Tiresome. Where’s the consistent story? If I’m expected to believe that the Mossad cut off Daniel Pearl’s head, perhaps I can believe that this guy is a Mossad agent, too!

    What a joke.

  • hdhntr

    Regarding the noth tower collapse, to, once again, illustrate the point being made about 9/11 as an inside job, here’s a Q&A to consider:

    Sorry to bring this from the dead but I have a question..

    In trizak’s equation it said:

    9.1627 is the fastest an object 1350ft high can freefall to the ground in a total vacuum with no resistance of any kind.

    And then it says, the North Tower came down in 8.4 seconds.

    I’m not a physics whiz, so my question is how did the tower come down faster the the equation says it could? Are you saying that the explosions “sucked” the building down faster?

    Maybe my understanding of “vacuum” is wrong but I thought a free fall in a total vacuum would be faster than the speed the tower fell.

    Please enlighten me. :-)

    —————————————-

    Good question.

    9.2 is absolute free fall time, in a complete vacuum with zero air resistence.

    the north tower fell in 8.4 seconds.

    How is this possible? On the face of it, this would appear to be impossible, especially since there was air present.

    The time of 8-9 seconds for the north tower collapse is a fact, and even if it was say 9.5 seconds, given the presence of air resistence, still, it’s hard to fathom, even in the presence of explosives and a high precision controlled demolition, though that is the only POSSIBLE way to explain the collapse, in terms of phyisical reality.

    Now, getting back to the question at hand – how could it fall faster than the rate of free fall in a vacuum?

    I forget who posted this somewhere else, but the best explanation we’ve been able to come up with is this:

    That the explosive charges, in the process of knocking out all and I repeat ALL structural integrity beneath the upper threshold of collapsing debris, combined with the downward rush of building debris, actually created in the process, a partial vacuum, and that the difference in pressure, between the inner vacuum and the outer atmospheric pressure, actually create a sucking dynamic, somewhat like that of a straw, where the atmosphere pressing down on the liquid makes the draw much easier than it ought to be.

    A pressure differential is the best explanation we’ve been able to come up with to explain a slightly faster than freefall rate of collapse for the north tower.

  • hdhntr

    “Could flames from an elevator shaft be from spilling burning jet fuel?”

    He, the massive explosion, and the burnt survivor that he recued, were like IN THE BASEMENT!

    The eye and earwitness account of multiple explosions is very impressive, coupled with the dynamic of the collapse (total free fall), and I think that we are looking at the phenomenon from a variety of angles, all of which force only one possible conclusion be drawn.

    You on the other hand are simply saying that it could not be because we were told 19 monkey bar swinging misfits from Afganistan directed by a man in a cave, and, because our own government could never and would never do such a thing, both of which do not address the issues, nor all the crime scene evidence, the best best piece of which is the timed rate of collapse of these buildings, relative to the rate of absolute free fall in a vacuum.

    They were made of STEEL?

  • Splat

    As I have stated many times before. It does not matter if you went to the person and put the evidence in their hands they would not believe you, or they do believe you but do not care as long as it does not personally affect them. Apathy is very rampant in USA and in many parts of the world. They would only said OH! you made it up, or it was fixed or they would fly the international middle finger.

  • hdhntr

    Here’s that article in question, so there can be no misinterpreting it.

    WTC Basement Blast And Injured Burn Victim Blows ‘Official 9/11 Story’ Sky High; Eye Witness Testimony Is Conclusive That North Tower Collapsed From Controlled Demolition

    WTC janitor pulls burn victim to safety after basement explosion rocks north tower seconds before jetliner hit top floors. Also, two other men trapped and drowning in a basement elevator shaft, were also pulled to safety from underground explosion..
    June 24, 2005

    By Greg Szymanski

    What happened to William Rodriguez the morning of 9/11 is a miracle. What happened to his story after-the-fact is a tragedy.

    But with miracles and tragedies comes truth. And truth is exactly what Rodriguez brings to the whole mystery surrounding 9/11.

    Declared a hero for saving numerous lives at Ground Zero, he was the janitor on duty the morning of 9/11 who heard and felt explosions rock the basement sub-levels of the north tower just seconds before the jetliner struck the top floors.

    He not only claims he felt explosions coming from below the first sub-level while working in the basement, he says the walls were cracking around him and he pulled a man to safety by the name of Felipe David, who was severely burned from the basement explosions.

    All these events occurred only seconds before and during the jetliner strike above. And through it all, he now asks a simple question everybody should be asking? How could a jetliner hit 90 floors above and burn a man’s arms and face to a crisp in the basement below within seconds of impact?

    Rodriguez claims this was impossible and clearly demonstrates a controlled demolition brought down the WTC, saying “Let’s see them (the government) try to wiggle out of this one.”

    Well, they haven’t wiggled out of it because the government continues to act like Rodriguez doesn’t exist, basically ignoring his statements and the fact he rescued a man burnt and bleeding from the basement explosions.

    His eye witness account, ignored by the media and the government, points the finger squarely on an official cover-up at the highest levels since the government contends the WTC fell only from burning jet fuel. And after listening to Rodriguez, it’s easy to see why the Bush administration wants him kept quiet.

    Bush wants him quiet because Rodriguez’s account is ‘proof positive’ the WTC was brought down by a controlled demolition, not burning jet fuel. And Bush knows if he’s caught lying about this or caught in a cover-up, it’s just a matter of time before the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.

    In fact, Rodriguez’s story is so damaging – so damning – it literally blows the lid off the government story, literally exposing the whole 9/11 investigation as a sham and a cover-up of the worst kind.

    And it appears the cover-up also extends to the media.

    NBC news knew about his story several years ago, even spending a full day at his house taping his comments. But when push came to shove, his story was never aired. Why?

    His eyewitness account, backed up by at least 14 people at the scene with him, isn’t speculation or conjecture. It isn’t a story that takes a network out on a journalistic limb. It’s a story that can be backed up, a story that can be verified with hospital records and testimony from many others.

    It’s a story about 14 people who felt and heard the same explosion and even saw Rodriguez, moments after the airplane hit, take David to safety, after he was burnt so bad from the basement explosion flesh was hanging from his face and both arms

    So why didn’t NBC or any other major news outlets cover the story? They didn’t run it because it shot the government story to hell and back. They didn’t run it because “the powers that be” wouldn’t allow it.

    Since 9/11, Rodriguez has stuck to his guns, never wavering from what he said from day one. Left homeless at times, warned to keep quiet and subtly harassed, he nevertheless has continued trying to tell get his message out in the face of a country not willing to listen.

    Here is his story:

    The Miracle

    It’s a miracle Rodriguez, 44, who worked at the WTC for 20 years, is even alive. Usually arriving to work at 8:00am, the morning of 9/11 he reported 30 minutes late. If he’d arrived on time, it would have put him at the top floors just about the same time the jetliner hit the north tower.

    “It was a miracle. If I arrived on time, like always, I’d probably be dead. I would have been up at the top floors like every morning,” said Rodriguez about the quirk of fate that saved his life.

    But since he was late, Rodriguez found himself checking into work in an office on sub-level 1 when the north tower was hit, seemingly out of harms way. However, the sound and concussion of a massive explosion in the sub-levels right below his feet changed that.

    “When I heard the sound of the explosion, the floor beneath my feet vibrated, the walls started cracking and it everything started shaking,” said Rodriguez, who was huddled together with at least 14 other people in the office.

    Rodriguez said Anthony Saltamachia, supervisor for the American Maintenance Co., was one of the people in the room who stands ready to verify his story.

    “Seconds after the first massive explosion below in the basement still rattled the floor, I hear another explosion from way above,” said Rodriguez. “Although I was unaware at the time, this was the airplane hitting the tower, it occurred moments after the first explosion.”

    But before Rodriguez had time to think, co-worker Felipe David stormed into the basement office with severe burns on his face and arms, screaming for help and yelling “explosion! explosion! explosion!”

    David had been in front of a nearby freight elevator on sub-level 1 about 400 feet from the office when fire burst out of the elevator shaft, causing his injuries.

    “He was burned terribly,” said Rodriguez. “The skin was hanging off his hands and arms. His injuries couldn’t have come from the airplane above, but only from a massive explosion below. I don’t care what the government says, what scientists say. I saw a man burned terribly from a fire that was caused from an explosion below.

    “I know there were explosives placed below the trade center. I helped a man to safety who is living proof, living proof the government story is a lie and a cover-up.

    “I have tried to tell my story to everybody, but nobody wants to listen. It is very strange what is going on here in supposedly the most democratic country in the world. In my home country of Puerto Rico and all the other Latin American countries, I have been allowed to tell my story uncensored. But here, I can’t even say a word.”

    After Rodriguez escorted David to safety outside the WTC, he returned to lead the others in the basement to safety as well. While there, he also helped two other men trapped and drowning in the basement elevator shaft, another result he says of the explosives placed below the tower.

    In fact, after leading these men to safety, he even made another trip back into the north tower, against police orders, in order to rescue people from the top floors.

    “I never could make it to the top, but I got up to the 33rd floor after getting some of my equipment and a face mask out of the janitor’s closet,” said Rodriguez, adding he heard a series of small explosions going off between the 20th and 30th floors, unrelated to the airplane strike, while making his way through the stairwell to the top floors.

    “Also, when I was on the 33rd floor, I heard strange sounds coming form the 34th floor, loud noises like someone moving and thumping heavy equipment and furniture. I knew this floor was empty and stripped due to construction work so I avoided it and continued to make my way up the stairs.”

    Rodriguez said he finally reached the 39th floor before being turned back by fire fighters and then, reluctantly, started his descent back down and his own flight to safety while, at the same time, hearing explosions coming from the South Tower.

    The Tragedy

    The concerted effort by the media and the government to silence Rodriguez is the tragedy behind this American hero’s story. And there is no question, Rodriguez is a “silent hero” for saving so many lives and for having the courage to continue telling his story against tremendous odds.

    In an effort to open a fair and honest investigation as to why the WTC collapsed, Rodriguez has been ignored by government officials, the 9/11 Commission and the National Institute of Safety and Technology (NIST).

    NIST, an independent investigative group funded by the government, put the finishing touches this week on its 2 year $35 million 9/11 investigation. This week Rodriguez made his final plea to have his story heard while testifying at the final public hearing held in New York.

    ” I disagree 100%with the government story,” said Rodriguez. “I met with the 9/11 Commission behind closed doors and they essentially discounted everything I said regarding the use of explosives to bring down the north tower.

    “And I contacted NIST previously four times without a response. Finally, this week I asked them before they came up with their conclusion that jet fuel brought down the towers, if they ever considered my statements or the statements of any of the other survivors who heard the explosions. They just stared at me with blank faces and didn’t have any answers.

    “Also, The FBI never followed up on my claims or on the other part of my story when I told them before 9/11, I encountered one of the hijackers casing the north tower.”

    Besides the explosions, Rodriguez also has provided testimony to the 9/11 Commission that he stumbled across one of the supposed 19 Arab hijackers inside the WTC several months before 9/11

    “I had just finished cleaning the bathroom and this guy asks me, ‘Excuse me, how many public bathrooms are in this area?'” Rodriguez told the 9/11 Commission. “Coming from the school of the 1993 [Trade Center] bombing, I found it very strange. I didn’t forget about it”

    Rodriguez, claims he saw United Airlines Flight 175 hijacker Mohand Alshehri in June 2001, telling an FBI agent about the incident a month after the attacks. Never hearing back from the bureau, he later learned agents never followed up on the story.

    “I’m very certain, I’ll give it 90%” that Alshehri was casing the towers before the attacks,” said Rodriguez.

    Regarding the media’s apathetic approach to his story, Rodriguez said immediately after 9/11 some newspapers picked it up but his words were never taken seriously and quickly forgotten.

    “During the 9/11 hearings, NBC brought a crew out to my house and spent a day taping my story but they never did air a word of it,” said Rodriguez. “Since then, some reporters and commentators have subtly warned me to keep quiet, told me my life could be in jeopardy and warned me that I really didn’t understand who I was dealing with.

    “I have been receiving this type of subtle harassment for years, but I keep telling everybody I can’t be intimidated because I am on a mission. Whenever someone asks why I keep talking or warns me that I could be killed, I just tell them I have nothing to lose.

    “I tell them I lost 200 friends and I am their voice now. I tell them I will do everything in my power to find out the truth since I am living on borrowed time since I probably should be dead anyway.”

    Besides trying to tell his explosive story, Rodriguez has been active raising money for 9/11victims, being involved with charity groups that have raised more than $122 million. He says he has used over $60,000 of his own money, originally earmarked to buy a new house, in order to get at the truth behind 9/11.

    Also seeking justice at the highest level, Rodriguez is the lead plaintiff in a federal RICO lawsuit filed against President Bush and others, alleging conspiracy to commit murder and other crimes in the deaths of more than 3,000 at the WTC.

    The case, filed last November in a Philadelphia federal district court, recently was moved to New York in a change of venue after a government’s motion to dismiss was overruled, allowing legal discovery to continue.

    “Even if the case goes no farther, I feel we have scored a victory by winning this first battle,” said Rodriguez. “At least the judge seems willing to listen which is a victory of sorts. However, I sincerely hope we can eventually take the case all the way to trial and reveal the truth to the American people about 9/11.”

    For more informative articles, go to http://www.arcticbeacon.com where kind donations are also accepted to keep the truth flowing in the wake of media apathy.

  • Schubstro

    Phil- I don’t think I am superior to you or anyone else. Obviously I think my views on 911 are, or I wouldn’t have posted. I have flaws just like everyone else. You seem like an intelligent enough person to seriously question the questioners. My statements were more directed towards those that have a rubber wall around themselves that just automatically bounces back ‘wacko’ whenever they are presented with a different (not always superior or correct) view of things. Occams Razor. Explain to me how the official story is the simplest? So many statements that have been made to keep that story alive have been refuted, that I won’t bother posting them here….well, ok, see below for a fraction of ‘coincidences’ anyways. I’m just trying to point out inconsistencies with the official story and the evidence. Is a whole elaborate scenario really needed to prove that they were and still are lying to us? The fact that they are lying should be enough.

    The Coincidence Theorist’s Guide to 911 Information

    http://www.wanttoknow.info/9-11information
    (url includes sources)

    That governments have permitted terrorist acts against their own people, and have even themselves been perpetrators in order to find strategic advantage is quite likely true, but this is the United States we’re talking about.

    That intelligence agencies, financiers, terrorists and narco-criminals have a long history together is well established, but the Nugan Hand Bank, BCCI, Banco Ambrosiano, the P2 Lodge, the CIA/Mafia anti-Castro/Kennedy alliance, Iran/Contra and the rest were a long time ago, so there’s no need to rehash all that. That was then, this is now!

    That Jonathan Bush’s Riggs Bank has been found guilty of laundering terrorist funds and fined a US-record $25 million must embarrass his nephew George, but it’s still no justification for leaping to paranoid conclusions.

    That George Bush’s brother Marvin sat on the board of the Kuwaiti-owned company which provided electronic security to the World Trade Centre, Dulles Airport and United Airlines means nothing more than you must admit those Bush boys have done alright for themselves.

    That George Bush found success as a businessman only after the investment of Osama’s brother Salem and reputed al Qaeda financier Khalid bin Mahfouz is just one of those things – one of those crazy things.

    That Osama bin Laden is known to have been an asset of US foreign policy in no way implies he still is.

    That al Qaeda was active in the Balkan conflict, fighting on the same side as the US as recently as 1999, while the US protected its cells, is merely one of history’s little aberrations.

    The claims of Michael Springman, State Department veteran of the Jeddah visa bureau, that the CIA ran the office and issued visas to al Qaeda members so they could receive training in the United States, sound like the sour grapes of someone who was fired for making such wild accusations.

    That one of George Bush’s first acts as President, in January 2001, was to end the two-year deployment of attack submarines which were positioned within striking distance of al Qaeda’s Afghanistan camps, even as the group’s guilt for the Cole bombing was established, proves that a transition from one administration to the next is never an easy task.

    That so many influential figures in and close to the Bush White House had expressed, just a year before the attacks, the need for a “new Pearl Harbor” before their militarist ambitions could be fulfilled, demonstrates nothing more than the accidental virtue of being in the right place at the right time.

    That the company PTECH, founded by a Saudi financier placed on America’s Terrorist Watch List in October 2001, had access to the FAA’s entire computer system for two years before the 911 attack, means he must not have been such a threat after all.

    That whistleblower Indira Singh was told to keep her mouth shut and forget what she learned when she took her concerns about PTECH to her employers and federal authorities, suggests she lacked the big picture. And that the Chief Auditor for JP Morgan Chase told Singh repeatedly, as she answered questions about who supplied her with what information, that “that person should be killed,” suggests he should take an anger management seminar.

    That on May 8, 2001, Dick Cheney took upon himself the job of co-ordinating a response to domestic terror attacks even as he was crafting the administration’s energy policy which bore implications for America’s military, circumventing the established infrastructure and ignoring the recommendations of the Hart-Rudman report, merely shows the VP to be someone who finds it hard to delegate.

    That the standing order which covered the shooting down of hijacked aircraft was altered on June 1, 2001, taking discretion away from field commanders and placing it solely in the hands of the Secretary of Defense, is simply poor planning and unfortunate timing. Fortunately the error has been corrected, as the order was rescinded shortly after 911.

    That in the weeks before 911, FBI agent Colleen Rowley found her investigation of Zacarias Moussaoui so perversely thwarted that her colleagues joked that bin Laden had a mole at the FBI, proves the stress-relieving virtue of humour in the workplace.

    That Dave Frasca of the FBI’s Radical Fundamentalist Unit received a promotion after quashing multiple, urgent requests for investigations into al Qaeda assets training at flight schools in the summer of 2001 does appear on the surface odd, but undoubtedly there’s a good reason for it, quite possibly classified.

    That FBI informant Randy Glass, working an undercover sting, was told by Pakistani intelligence operatives that the World Trade Center towers were coming down, and that his repeated warnings which continued until weeks before the attacks, including the mention of planes used as weapons, were ignored by federal authorities, is simply one of the many “What Ifs” of that tragic day.

    That over the summer of 2001 Washington received many urgent, senior-level warnings from foreign intelligence agencies and governments – including those of Germany, France, Great Britain, Russia, Egypt, Israel, Morocco, Afghanistan and others – of impending terror attacks using hijacked aircraft and did nothing, demonstrates the pressing need for a new Intelligence Czar.

    That John Ashcroft stopped flying commercial aircraft in July 2001 on account of security considerations had nothing to do with warnings regarding September 11, because he said so to the 911 Commission.

    That former lead counsel for the House David Schippers says he’d taken to John Ashcroft’s office specific warnings he’d learned from FBI agents in New York of an impending attack – even naming the proposed dates, names of the hijackers and the targets – and that the investigations had been stymied and the agents threatened, proves nothing but David Schipper’s pathetic need for attention.

    That Garth Nicolson received two warnings from contacts in the intelligence community and one from a North African head of state, which included specific site, date and source of the attacks, and passed the information to the Defense Department and the National Security Council to evidently no effect, clearly amounts to nothing, since virtually nobody has ever heard of him.

    That in the months prior to September 11, self-described US intelligence operative Delmart Vreeland sought, from a Toronto jail cell, to get US and Canadian authorities to heed his warning of his accidental discovery of impending catastrophic attacks is worthless, since Vreeland was a dubious character, notwithstanding the fact that many of his claims have since been proven true.

    That FBI Special Investigator Robert Wright claims that agents assigned to intelligence operations actually protect terrorists from investigation and prosecution, that the FBI shut down his probe into terrorist training camps, and that he was removed from a money-laundering case that had a direct link to terrorism, sounds like yet more sour grapes from a disgruntled employee.

    That George Bush had plans to invade Afghanistan on his desk before 911 demonstrates only the value of being prepared.

    The suggestion that securing a pipeline across Afghanistan figured into the White House’s calculations is as ludicrous as the assertion that oil played a part in determining war in Iraq.

    That Afghanistan is once again the world’s principal heroin producer is an unfortunate reality, but to claim the CIA is still actively involved in the narcotics trade is to presume bad faith on the part of the agency.

    Mahmood Ahmed, chief of Pakistan’s ISI, must not have authorized an al Qaeda payment of $100,000 to Mohammed Atta days before the attacks, and was not meeting with senior Washington officials over the week of 911, because I didn’t read anything about him in the official report.

    That Porter Goss met with Ahmed the morning of September 11 in his capacity as Chairman of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence has no bearing whatsoever upon his recent selection by the White House to head the Central Intelligence Agency.

    That Goss’s congressional seat encompasses the 911 hijackers’ Florida base of operation, including their flight schools, is precisely the kind of meaningless factoid a conspiracy theorist would bring up.

    It’s true that George HW Bush and Dick Cheney spent the evening of September 10 alone in the Oval Office, but what’s wrong with old colleagues catching up? And it’s true that George HW Bush and Shafig bin Laden, Osama’s brother, spent the morning of September 11 together at a board meeting of the Carlyle Group, but the bin Ladens are a big family.

    That FEMA arrived in New York on Sept 10 to prepare for a scheduled biowarfare drill, and had a triage centre ready to go that was larger and better equipped than the one that was lost in the collapse of WTC 7, was a lucky twist of fate.

    Newsweek’s report that senior Pentagon officials cancelled flights on Sept 10 for the following day on account of security concerns is only newsworthy because of what happened the following morning.

    That George Bush’s telephone logs for September 11 do not exist should surprise no one, given the confusion of the day.

    That Mohamed Atta attended the International Officer’s School at Maxwell Air Force Base, that Abdulaziz Alomari attended Brooks Air Force Base Aerospace Medical School, that Saeed Alghamdi attended the Defense Language Institute in Monterey merely shows it is a small world, after all.

    That Lt Col Steve Butler, Vice Chancellor for student affairs of the Defense Language Institute during Alghamdi’s terms, was disciplined, removed from his post and threatened with court martial when he wrote “Bush knew of the impending attacks on America. He did nothing to warn the American people because he needed this war on terrorism. What is…contemptible is the President of the United States not telling the American people what he knows for political gain,” is the least that should have happened for such disrespect shown his Commander in Chief.

    That Mohammed Atta dressed like a Mafioso, had a stripper girlfriend, smuggled drugs, was already a licensed pilot when he entered the US, enjoyed pork chops, drank to excess and did cocaine, was closer to Europeans than Arabs in Florida, and included the names of defence contractors on his email list, proves how dangerous the radical fundamentalist Muslim can be.

    That 43 lbs of heroin was found on board the Lear Jet owned by Wally Hilliard, the owner of Atta’s flight school, just three weeks after Atta enrolled – the biggest seizure ever in Central Florida – was just bad luck. That Hilliard was not charged shows how specious the claims for conspiracy truly are.

    That Hilliard’s plane had made 30-round trips to Venezuela with the same passengers who always paid cash, that the plane had been supplied by a pair of drug smugglers who had also outfitted CIA drug runner Barry Seal, and that 911 commissioner Richard ben-Veniste had been Seal’s attorney before Seal’s murder, shows nothing but the lengths to which conspiracists will go to draw sinister conclusions.

    Reports of insider trading on 911 are false, because the SEC investigated and found only respectable investors who will remain nameless involved, and no terrorists, so the windfall profit-taking was merely, as ever, coincidental.

    That heightened security for the World Trade Centre was lifted immediately prior to the attacks illustrates that it always happens when you least expect it.

    That Hani Hanjour, the pilot of Flight 77, was so incompetent he could not fly a Cessna in August, but in September managed to fly a 767 at excessive speed into a spiraling, 270-degree descent and a level impact of the first floor of the Pentagon, on the only side that was virtually empty and had been hardened to withstand a terrorist attack, merely demonstrates that people can do almost anything once they set their minds to it.

    That none of the flight data recorders were said to be recoverable even though they were located in the tail sections, and that until 911, no solid-state recorder in a catastrophic crash had been unrecoverable, shows how there’s a first time for everything.

    That Mohammed Atta left a uniform, a will, a Koran, his driver’s license and a “how to fly planes” video in his rental car at the airport means he had other things on his mind.

    The mention of Israelis with links to military-intelligence having been arrested on Sept 11 videotaping and celebrating the attacks, of an Israeli espionage ring surveiling DEA and defense installations and trailing the hijackers, and of a warning of impending attacks delivered to the Israeli company Odigo two hours before the first plane hit, does not deserve a response. That the stories also appeared in publications such as Ha’aretz and Forward is a sad display of self-hatred among certain elements of the Israeli media.

    That multiple military wargames and simulations were underway the morning of 911 – one simulating the crash of a plane into a building; another, a live-fly simulation of multiple hijackings – and took many interceptors away from the eastern seaboard and confused field commanders as to which was a real hijacked aircraft and which was a hoax, was a bizarre coincidence, but no less a coincidence.

    That the National Military Command Center ops director asked a rookie substitute to stand his watch at 8:30 am on Sept. 11 is nothing more than bad timing.

    That a recording made Sept 11 of air traffic controllers’ describing what they had witnessed, was destroyed by an FAA official who crushed it in his hand, cut the tape into little pieces and dropped them in different trash cans around the building, is something no doubt that overzealous official wishes he could undo.

    That the FBI knew precisely which Florida flight schools to descend upon hours after the attacks should make every American feel safer knowing their federal agents are on the ball.

    That a former flight school executive believes the hijackers were “double agents,” and says about Atta and associates, “Early on I gleaned that these guys had government protection. They were let into this country for a specific purpose,” and was visited by the FBI just four hours after the attacks to intimidate him into silence, proves he’s an unreliable witness, for the simple reason there is no conspiracy.

    That Jeb Bush was on board an aircraft that removed flight school records to Washington in the middle of the night on Sept 12th demonstrates how seriously the governor takes the issue of national security.

    To insinuate evil motive from the mercy flights of bin Laden family members and Saudi royals after 911 shows the sickness of the conspiratorial mindset.

    Le Figaro’s report in October 2001, known to have originated with French intelligence, that the CIA met Osama bin Laden in a Dubai hospital in July 2001, proves again the perfidy of the French.

    That the tape in which bin Laden claims responsibility for the attacks was released by the State Department after having been found providentially by US forces in Afghanistan, and depicts a fattened Osama with a broader face and a flatter nose, proves Osama, and Osama alone, masterminded 911.

    That at the battle of Tora Bora, where bin Laden was surrounded on three sides, Special Forces received no order to advance and capture him and were forced to stand and watch as two Russian-made helicopters flew into the area where bin Laden was believed hiding, loaded up passengers and returned to Pakistan, demonstrates how confusing the modern battlefield can be.

    That upon returning to Fort Bragg from Tora Bora, the same Special Operations troops who had been stood down from capturing bin Laden, suffered a unusual spree of murder/suicides, is nothing more than a series of senseless tragedies.

    Reports that bin Laden is currently receiving periodic dialysis treatment in a Pakistani medical hospital are simply too incredible to be true.

    That the White House went on Cipro September 11 shows the foresightedness of America’s emergency response.

    That the anthrax was mailed to perceived liberal media and the Democratic leadership demonstrates only the perversity of the terrorist psyche.

    That the anthrax attacks appeared to silence opponents of the Patriot Act shows only that appearances can be deceiving.

    That the Ames-strain anthrax was found to have originated at Fort Detrick, and was beyond the capability of all but a few labs to refine, underscores the importance of allowing the investigation to continue without the distraction of absurd conspiracy theories.

    That Republican guru Grover Norquist has been found to have aided financiers and supporters of Islamic terror to gain access to the Bush White House, and is a founder of the Islamic Institute, which the Treasury Department believes to be a source of funding for al Qaeda, suggests Norquist is at worst, naive, and at best, needs a wider circle of friends.

    That the Department of Justice consistently chooses to see accused 911 plotters go free rather than permit the courtroom testimony of al Qaeda leaders in American custody looks bad, but only because we don’t have all the facts.

    That the White House balked at any inquiry into the events of 911, then starved it of funds and stonewalled it, was unfortunate, but since the commission didn’t find for conspiracy it’s all a non issue anyway.

    That the 911 commission’s executive director and “gatekeeper,” Philip Zelikow, was so closely involved in the events under investigation that he testified before the the commission as part of the inquiry, shows only an apparent conflict of interest.

    That commission chair Thomas Kean is, like George Bush, a Texas oil executive who had business dealings with reputed al Qaeda financier Khalid bin Mafouz, suggests Texas is smaller than they say it is.

    That co-chair Lee Hamilton has a history as a Bush family “fixer,” including clearing Bush Sr of the claims arising from the 1980 “October Surprise”, is of no concern, since only conspiracists believe there was such a thing as an October Surprise.

    That FBI whistleblower Sibel Edmonds accuses the agency of intentionally fudging specific pre-911 warnings and harboring a foreign espionage ring in its translation department, and claims she witnessed evidence of the semi-official infrastructure of money-laundering and narcotics trade behind the attacks, is of no account, since John Ashcroft has gagged her with the rare invocation of “State Secrets Privilege,” and retroactively classified her public testimony. For the sake of national security, let us speak no more of her.

    That, when commenting on Edmond’s case, Daniel Ellsberg remarked that Ashcroft could go to prison for his part in a cover-up, suggests Ellsberg is giving comfort to the terrorists, and could, if he doesn’t wise up, find himself declared an enemy combatant.

    I could go on. And on and on. But I trust you get the point. Which is simply this: there are no secrets, an American government would never accept civilian casualties for geostrategic gain, and conspiracies are for the weak-minded and gullible.

  • irishdrifter

    BB
    “Are you serious? We didn’t invade on a whim. 14 months leadup until invasion isn’t a whim”

    So what was the reason for the invasion??

    Thats whats meant by a whim. The US invaded illegally without without good cause or reason, without justification and immorally.

  • hdhntr

    Here is a recorded interview on the subject! I’m just listening to it now..

  • hdhntr

    Actually, the Janitor, William Rodriguez is on it as well!

    Let’s listen to it here

  • Splat

    :) waves at the last two people that wrote those statements. Does a slight bow and says Well Done! Yes Well done indeed!

  • splat

    Was talking about waving to hdhntr and Schubstr.

  • splat

    At lease I know now that there are others like myself that do believe that we were lied to and its a shame that the people that commited this crime will never be bought to justice.

  • Splat

    And thanks all of you who know the truth and do not hide your head in the sand

  • hdhntr

    If the truth be known they will, one way or another, that is if you believe that justice is more than a mere human convention.

  • hdhntr

    In that interview, jump to about 23:14.0 and you’ll be there at the interview with Rodrigues the Janitor at WTC1, the North Tower.

  • hdhntr

    If he’s credible, then the explosion, the first one, occured just before the plane hit above.

    Come ON people. Wake the F UP!

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    It would be nice if the 9/11 conspiracy theorists can try to make their point without resorting to pop psychology. Just because someone isn’t convinced doesn’t make it a psychopathological confition.

  • hdhntr

    Hey Splat,

    Alone you most definitely are not. But it takes a strong, willing and open mind to accept it, or that of the more objective outside observer who is not constraint by a certain contempt prior to investigation.

    In terms of numbers, if the Zogby poll done last year in New York city and state is any indication, then by now, probably as many as 20 million Americans (or more) are now convinced that 911 was in fact, an inside job.

    There were also some polls taken a couple of years ago in Canada and Europe as well, which, if the trend has continued as we see on the Net, then it is not unreasonable in the least to conclude that as many as 30 or 40% of Canadians and Europians believe the same.

    Plus, I have a theory about human communications, that each of these people has an immediate and direct influence on as many as ten other people, who will also be convinced when they really look at it with an open and unbiased mind also free of contempt, prior to investigation.

    I firmly believe therefore, that history will be able to record this singular “catastrophic and catalyzing even”, this “New Pearl Harbor” fairly accurately, thus causing the perps, the real ones, to be remembered for who they are and what they did and attempted to do.

    If there is a God and a sovereign will over history, or a first/last cause which binds people and nations together in Civility, then I am pretty sure that God is also a God of truth and justice.

    I have faith therefore that all or most people will come to see this clearly for the abominable crime of the century that it is and was, in spite of the complicity of the mass media in the US and elsewhere.

    If there’s one thing they did not anticipate I don’t think, it’s the ingenuity of people of good conscience and faith employing a resource like the Internet to get the word out to as many people as possible, as quickly as possible.

    Regards,

    hdhntr

    “I ask for mercy and not sacrifice.”

    “It was the stone that was rejected by the builders, that became the keystone.”

    We who have been lied to, and all the many countless victims of 9/11, both then and which have been created in its wake and in their name, are that stone – one which they, the so-called “keepers of the flame” went and tripped headlong over, in their breathless and uninspired rush to the throne of the earth.

    God Bless, and GodSPEED!

    If this matter is of concern to you, spread the word, even if that’s all you can do. Don’t underestimate your power to effect the needed transformation in human affairs.

    In short. FUCK THEM! Let’s make sure EVERYONE knows about this crime. K?

  • hdhntr

    John, it’s only the mind of the those who see and see again, and who hear all about it, and then, after all of that, and after careful consideration, and often painful evaluative discernment, retreat back to the official story as fed them by their own government and media outlets, which may be considered the weak minded.

    Those who do not know, and who haven’t seen or heard – they cannot be blamed for their ignorance.

    You can.

  • Nick Jones

    Here’s that 9/11 Timeline I mentioned above.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    I’ve seen it and I’m not convinced, you don’t even raise the right objections.

    How’s this for an objection… the point of terrorism is to get people afraid to adopt a certain agenda. Al Qaeda never admitted to it. If it was a terrorist strike, someone ALWAYS takes credit. That’s a good objection.

    The question on who was to blame then. I find the theory that the family members were too stupid to NOT recognize their family members unconvincing, which means planes WERE hijacked. Because those phone calls were impossible to stage (I’m sorry a man or wife recognizes their spouse), the information sent on those calls is valid. Muslims did hijack planes.

    Now, did the government, or someone else know this in advance and plan accordingly? Were those agents of the US that did the hijacking? That might be a good theory.

    If they had advance notice, then who?

    No one does something like this for insurance money, and considering the loss he had in assets, it’s not like he made that much on the deal.

    Bush Co? For the Patriot Act? Please. There is no PERSONAL payoff for Bush.

    Neocons? I’ve heard the PNAC theory several times, and having REREAD the docs came to the same conclusion I have before, they weren’t saying a new Pearl Harbor HAD to occur, it said it would accelerate things, but was unnecessary. And considering their point of view, I think that was a valid assumption.

    None of these theories answer who. And the theorists only answer objections with ad hominems.

    Sorry, I’m not impressed.

  • Venice-13

    John Bimboneck says:
    >>>Just because someone isn’t convinced doesn’t make it a psychopathological confition.”

    This is very revealing. It’s all about “confition”.

    “The greatest happiness of life it the confition [sp] that we are loved — loved for ourselves, or rather, loved in spite of ourselves.”
    –Victo Hugo

    You’re so wrong Bimboneck, but we still love you.

  • splat

    Comment 490 posted by John Bambenek on June 29, 2005 11:49 PM:

    No one does something like this for insurance money, and considering the loss he had in assets, it’s not like he made that much on the deal.

    Bush Co? For the Patriot Act? Please. There is no PERSONAL payoff for Bush.

    No Maybe not personally But there were billions upon billions in Gold and Silver at the bottom of the world trade center in one of the lower decks. How do I know I watched it here on the news. And then I watched it on the news from several other countries also. Where I am at doesn’t matter. then I watched the news that came from the states and they had a 30 second clip on it and I might add they showed the transfer with all those Armour cars or trucks if you prefer. They showed it one time and that was all. Yes i have several monitors with the various news channels. I might add also that If I hadn’t stopped at that moment doing what I was doing when one of my friends brought it to my attention I would of missed it. And everyone knows that almost everything on the news is aired several times so that the information can be view by more of the population. But this wasn’t. I know I made sure that for the next 4 days that if it came on again that it was to be brought to my attention. Nor have I ever heard of it being on again.

    Now here’s something else. That gold and silver was in one of the lower decks in the world trade center. and a lot of it was melted. What MELTED? yes it was from several news sources stating the same thing. That must of been one hell of a hot fire to melt through those vaults. hmmmmmmm…… AHHHH wait a minute. melted vaults (BOMB Shelters) ahhhh how could you get the silver and gold out if it was melted and all that steel and concrete was on top hmmmmm What do you mean It disappeared? Hun.
    < http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/gold.html>

  • irishdrifter

    My first suspicions about 911 began the momemt I saw what looked like a badly drawn airplane hitting the South Tower on TV.

    “Own Goal,” I cried, “the US are going to start a war”, was my initial reaction. Sept 11 2001.

    The TV footage was shown over and over again on that day, but something didn’t look right.

    Here is a little collection of faked TV news footage from Sept 11

    Step through this footage one frame at a time – then do likewise with your pre-conceptions about all around you.

    Watch this frame by frame, it’s laughable what the TV networks tried to con us with.

    http://www.positiontoknow.com/S-11/vid/1stplane.mpeg

    Pause the next one at 125, or when the zoom in begins. See the large explosion near the top floor. The TV network tries to fig-leaf it by putting their logo right on top of it. We will see several instances of this in the following footage also. Enjoy!!

    North Tower – W6N

    http://www.positiontoknow.com/S-11/vid/First%20Plane%20Crash.mpeg

    Evan Fairbanks. Here we have the invisible wing phenomeon, and the dubious underside specular lighting on the craft. The incredibly slow reaction of the CIA cretin.

    http://www.positiontoknow.com/S-11/vid/Second_Crash_Insane.mpeg

    Here is the incredible waltzing heli767-200ER.

    http://www.positiontoknow.com/S-11/vid/WTC%201st%20plane%20crash%20(1).mpeg

    This is the best example of fake TV footage I have ever seen. Watch for the logo fig leaf at “impact point”.

    South Tower -ABC

    http://www.positiontoknow.com/S-11/vid/WTC_Plane_Crash.mpg

    Sorry about the lack of links, spam protection. But that doesn’t matter if you use Firefox browser, which you should if you dont :-)

  • hdhntr

    9/11 is the entire source of their power, and increasing wealth.

    Bush was a dud going in after that election fiasco and now he’s a personality cult, which is perhaps the most difficult thing to explain…except in terms of 9/11 and the “war on terra”.

  • hdhntr

    Sorry for the unlinked links (still don’t know how to do that). Maybe you wouldn’t mind cleaning them up, but it’s along the same lines as what Irish here has posted. These are must see items, given that we’ve already established that the plane strikes were not the cause of the collapse of the two buildings.

    CNN Video Frame (with flame/flash emission captured)
    http://i.cnn.net/cnn/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/gallery/unimaginable/2.jpg
    Yahoo Top Pics Still Photo (prior to flame/flash) – different camera
    http://www.letsroll911.net/images/YahooTopPicsEmail2.jpg
    Newsday Magazine
    http://www.letsroll911.net/images/Newsday12thLrg.jpg

  • hdhntr

    Right Side Here Is New York Gallary Image (still photo)
    # 2087 here
    (Install Viewpoint – quick and easy – to Magnify X10)

  • hdhntr

    3D objects which do NOT belong
    here
    here
    here

  • hdhntr

    CNN Slomo (south tower impact). Note “pod” structure visible through all frames, therefore precluding momentary reflection. Note also orange flame emission, as per CNN frame (above)
    http://www.letsroll911.net/images/CourtesyCNNABC.wmv
    Must be viewed again in split screen with the following – note point of emission corresponding with end of right side pipe structure.
    http://letsroll911.org/images/fueljetspray.jpg

    Camera Planet Video, right side view, *same phenomenon*, different camera and angle from CNN video and Pod Newsphoto image.
    http://www.letsroll911.net/images/Pip%20Low.wmv
    Note again, point of white then orange flame emission relative to the following 3 images.

  • Eric Olsen

    dude, very seriously, take ten fucking minutes and learn how to make an html link. I am way fucking tired of fixing your shit all day long.

  • hdhntr

    Thanks whoever is doing the link tagging for me! Appreciate that.

  • Eric Olsen

    from now on your unlinked URLs will be deleted – if you can find all this stupid shit all over the Internet, you can figure out how to link

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    I wanted to catch up on all of this, but I got as far as “19 monkey bar swinging misfits from Afganistan” and realized that I really can’t be bothered to try to converse intelligently with anyone who makes these kinds of statements about Arab people.

    I suppose I should be satisfied that y’all are equal-opportunity racists, not just bashing Jewish people, but I’m not sitting through monkey-jibes about Arab people either. Have a nice night. I’m pretty sure you ignored my request again anyway.

  • hdhntr

    Phillip, that was not a jibe against Arab people, but about the way these terrorists have been portrayed to us time and time again, and then again and again. You know the video from Afganistan, with them swinging on monkey bars and then diving into the water. Monkey bar swinging misfits – the terrorists. Who supposedly foiled the most advanced military complex in the world on 9/11.

  • hdhntr

    How do I make a link Eric? I noted that some of the ones I posted, for comparison purposes (same phenomenon from other cameras and angles) disappeared, and it’s important that people can look at these things within the entire contextual framework. Thanks.

  • irishdrifter

    Eric fucking Olson dude get Firefox browser!! Then highlight the URL and right click dude!

    Meanwhile ….

    How ’bout Dubya’s speech at Fort Bragg? Hot diggity dog Junior knocked
    it out of the park didn’t he? He mentioned 9/11 five times and even
    quoted Osama bin Laden. And 70% of Americans now support our War
    of Terror in Iraq. Yep it’s good to be able to fool most of the people
    most of the time. The news media and the Democrats can complain
    all they want but we will continue to exploit the Official Myth of 9/11
    until the cows come home. Who’s going to stop us? Some wackos on
    the internets? That’ll be the day. We’re sitting pretty with no chance
    of anybody not even Howard Dean or Howard Stern going for our
    soft underbelly of provable evidence. The mainstream news media
    is completely cowed and terrified of 9/11 Conspiracy Truth. They
    are afraid of it because we used the Israelis and since the major
    networks and newspapers are Zionist owned and operated we’ve
    got them by the balls. Cowards they are and shall always be. We’ve
    done a great job shifting the focus away from Sept. 11th to Iraq. So
    all they have to debate is our artificial link between Saddam and Al
    Qaeda. They’re still chasing and investigating phantom “hijackers”
    who were actually Arab playboys we recruited and trained to act
    as double agents. And the Jewish Media Elite can’t touch us. They
    won’t dare expose any of the evidence on this website because we
    have them under our thumbs. Chertoff works for us that’s why his
    Popular Mechanics article was such an easy thing to put into print.
    We now have total political power. Nobody can touch us. I’m not
    bragging or boasting here I’m just stating the truth as it now is.
    Yep it sure does feel good to be sitting pretty rolling in money.

  • hdhntr

    “from now on your unlinked URLs will be deleted”

    From now on…?

    You already edited certain things out, leaving others there, removing the framework I was presenting for yours and everyone’s benefit, that is if we really are committed to the truth and reality.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    I find it funny that people criticize my comment typos while intentionally mispelling my name.

  • Nancy

    I always wondered why so many people in Europe, etc. were yelling 9/11 was done by the US itself, almost immediately after the event. I thought it was an outrageous slur, but obviously they’re a lot more on the ball than we are. All of the above evidence points & counterpoints certainly make for sober & thoughtful mulling over. However, since it would seem those who perpetrated this, either here (if the conspiracy hypotheses are true) or in the ‘stans as conventional blame claims, are not going to be brought to justice in our lifetimes or theirs, what can be done about it? You know damn well that if BushCo. wouldn’t even be interviewed alone, or talk under oath, they sure as hell ain’t gonna ‘fess up, even if someone came up w/Nixonian-type videotapes, and even less is anyone in the admin. who might have blood on their hands going to be accused publicly, let alone tried. Since they hold the power, it’s also unlikely that the history books are going to contain any of this. It’s always going to be on fringe websites. I can only conclude that I’d better hope & pray there IS a God, and justice that rejects spin, lies, excuses, & half-truths, & that at the end everyone & anyone involved in this suddenly realizes they’re in BIIIIIIG and permanent trouble ain’t no lawyer or Rove-type can get them out of.

  • Eric Olsen

    hdhntr, I’ve done nothing to your comments other than make your endless URLs actual links. HTML links are described here

    The truth and reality I am committed to are very different from yours.

    irish, I KNOW how to make links. I am tired of making them for other people

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com/ andy marsh

    it’s a conspiracy I tell ya!

  • Eric Olsen

    not you Nancy?!? I will assume you are being sarcastic

  • hdhntr

    Nancy, the only hope is if people, lots of them, and then some, are able to, upon careful, sober, and open minded review and evaluation (free from contempt, prior to investigation) make the right judgement call as to what is the truth and what are the lies surrounding the 9/11 event, and then spread the word as far and wide as is humanly possible, with whatever resources are available to them.

    You see, if enough people know about this, then, while justice may or may not be served the true perps, at least the historical record, for all generations, will reflect the Truth, and not some hideous Orwellian spin of ‘reality control’.

  • irishdrifter

    Eric. If you are posting many links the blog wont let you because it’s spam protection.

    Nancy who do you consider carried out the 911 attacks please? The most sophisticated terrorist attacks in history.

    A. A man in a cave with a beard and his 19 Merry Men. (many of whom have been re-incarnated)

    B. The US Industrial and Military Complex.

  • hdhntr

    1984, an excerpt
    In view of the 9/11 lie, it send shivers down my spine…

    “The Ministry of Truth-Minitrue, in Newspeak-was startlingly different from any other object in sight. It was an enormous pyramidal structure of glittering white concrete, soaring up, terrace after terrace, three hundred meters into the air. From where Winston stood it was just possible to read, picked out on its white face in elegant lettering, the three slogans of the Party:
    WAR IS PEACE
    FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
    IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH.
    p29
    Since about that time, war had been literally continuous, though strictly speaking it had not always been the same war. For several months during his childhood there had been confused street fighting in London itself, some of which he remembered vividly. But to trace out the history of the whole period, to say who was fighting whom at any given moment, would have been utterly impossible, since no written record, and no spoken word, ever made mention of any other alignment than the existing one. At this moment, for example, in 1984 (if it was 1984), Oceania was at war with Eurasia and in alliance with Eastasia. In no public or private utterance was it ever admitted that the three powers had at any time been grouped along different lines. Actually, as Winston well knew, it was only four years since Oceania had been at war with Eastasia and in alliance with Eurasia. But that was merely a piece of furtive knowledge which he happened to possess because his memory was not satisfactorily under control. Officially the change of partners had never happened. Oceania was at war with Eurasia: therefore Oceania had always been at war with Eurasia. The enemy of the moment always represented absolute evil, and it followed that any past or future agreement with him was impossible.
    The frightening thing, he reflected for the ten thousandth time as he forced his shoulders painfully backward (with hands on hips, they were gyrating their bodies from the waist, an exercise that was supposed to be good for the back muscles}the frightening thing was that it might all be true. If the Party could thrust its hand into the past and say of this or that event, it never happened-that, surely, was more terrifying than mere torture and death.
    The Party said that Oceania had never been in alliance with Eurasia. He, Winston Smith, knew that Oceania had been in alliance with Eurasia as short a time as four years ago. But where did that knowledge exist? Only in his own consciousness, which in any case must soon be annihilated. And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed-if all records told the same tale-then the lie passed into history and became truth. “Who controls the past,”‘ ran the Party slogan, “controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.” And yet the past, though of its nature alterable, never had been altered. Whatever was true now was true from everlasting to everlasting. It was quite simple. All that was needed was an unending series of victories over your own memory. “Reality control,” they called it; in Newspeak, “doublethink.”

  • Eric Olsen

    you can do up to three links per comment – if you need more, move on to a new comment

  • hdhntr

    Perhaps we will all be insane by the time this thread hits number one on the leader board, eh? LOL

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com/ andy marsh

    to late!

  • Nancy

    Eric, I said ‘if’ & ‘if’. It’s a lot to chew on, and contrary to what I’ve been accused of by Dave, I don’t always leap to conclusions, even about Smirk. I’d really, really hate to think he actually had anything to do w/this, or anyone else w/him. I guess I’m just a sap or naive, but if it were me who’d done something like this, I’d be in terror of my immortal soul. Crap – I’m still agonizing over lies I told my mom when I was a kid, altho I’m sure I fooled no one. I just can’t imagine being the type of person who could do something like this – let alone plot it, even if I didn’t participate – and still be functioning. I accept that such persons exist, obviously they do, but I can’t mentally digest it, so to speak. The enormity overwhelms me.

  • irishdrifter

    Can I put the notion of Anti-Semitism away once and for all by saying :

    Ok, 6 million Jews died between 1939-45, we know 270 million Christians died in the same period. Why do Jews have a monopoly on this death and suffering? It’s ours, you cant touch it!!

    Facts and Figures

    5.5 Million People were deliberately starved to death by the British in Ireland around 1850-1860. It gets called a “famine”, and blamed on the failure of one crop, in the history books, never as a “holocaust”.

    Irish Holocaust

    I personally am fed up having to defend myself against being called anti-semitic
    because I believe that Israel was involved in 911. There were 5 Israelis caught filming and dancing on top of a white van. Turns out they were all Mossad Agents and secreted out of the country a few weeks later. Israeli owned companies got warnings. Odigo. The “Put Options” on the stock led to Sharons front door not Osama bin Ladins.

    You will remember while the world watched in horror, we were shown the images of the old Palestinian woman out dancing on the street. How did the cameraman know to be there? There were no celebrations, anywhere. The cowardly Israelis attacked Jenin that day and nobody noticed.

    There was an Israeli on each aeroplane that day. Daniel Lewin deserves special mention. He was on Flight 11. Daniel Lewin was Israel’s secret weapon. He was a commando/terrorist extra-ordinaire. He led the assault on the faked Entebbe Hostage situation a few years back, all the hostages were released, and the “terrorists” were annhiallated. He has a history of this sort of thing.

    He was in First Class allegedly, surrounded by Arabs who got up and shot and stabbed him according to the MSM.

    Flight 11 :

    Take a look at the research done here!

    Later all!!

  • hdhntr

    Here’s something else, if what we’ve covered so far isn’t enough!

    The origin and genesis of this maniacal plot for global domination appears to have had its root and source in the “how-to-take-over-the-world” brainstorming sessions by a couple of college kids about 30 odd years ago. They were Paul Wolfowitz and Stanley Hilton. Hilton, now a lawyer, and Bob Dole’s ex Chief of Staff, who recently attempted to file suit against the Bush administration on behald of a large number of victim’s families, actually did his masters thesis on the subject, which, it now apears Wolfowitz took up, and eventually made, with the help of Cheney and others, a reality.

    Here is the excerpt from Hilton’s interview with Alex Jones last year.

    I’m afraid in this case I don’t have a link for it, the transcript of the interview, and since it makes for one heck of a read, I’m posting it here in its entirety.

    Interview with Stanley Hilton, Bob Dole’s ex chief of staff, with Alex Jones.

    SH: “Individuals that work in NORAD as well as the Air Force have stated this, off the record, but the point is, yes, this was not just five drills but at least 35 drills over at least two months before September 11th. Everything was planned, the exact location……”

    Interview of Stanley Hilton, attorney for 9/11 taxpayers’ lawsuit
    Alex Jones Radio Show
    September 10, 2004
    Transcription by ‘RatCat’

    AJ: He is back with us. He is former Bob Dole’s chief of staff, very successful counselor, lawyer. He represents hundreds of the victims families of 9/11. He is suing Bush for involvement in 9/11. Now a major Zogby poll out – half of New Yorkers think the government was involved in 9/11. And joining us for the next 35 minutes, into the next hour, is Stanley Hilton. Stanley, it’s great to have you on with us.

    SH: Glad to be on.

    AJ: We’ll have to recap this when we start the next hour, but just in a nutshell, you have a lawsuit going, you’ve deposed a lot of military officers. You know the truth of 9/11. Just in a nutshell, what is your case alleging?

    SH: Our case is alleging that Bush and his puppets Rice and Cheney and Mueller and Rumsfeld and so forth, Tenet, were all involved not only in aiding and abetting and allowing 9/11 to happen but in actually ordering it to happen. Bush personally ordered it to happen. We have some very incriminating documents as well as eye-witnesses, that Bush personally ordered this event to happen in order to gain political advantage, to pursue a bogus political agenda on behalf of the neocons and their deluded thinking in the Middle East. I also wanted to point out that, just quickly, I went to school with some of these neocons. At the University of Chicago, in the late 60s with Wolfowitz and Feith and several of the others and so I know these people personally. And we used to talk about this stuff all of the time. And I did my senior thesis on this very subject – how to turn the U.S. into a presidential dictatorship by manufacturing a bogus Pearl Harbor event. So, technically this has been in the planning at least 35 years.

    AJ: That’s right. They were all Straussian followers of a Nazi-like professor. And now they are setting it up here in America. Stanley, I know you deposed a lot of people and you’ve got your $7 million dollar lawsuit with hundreds of the victim’s families involved….

    SH: 7 billion, 7 billion

    AJ: Yeah, 7 billion. Can you go over some of the new and incriminating evidence you’ve got of them ordering the attack?

    SH: Yes, let me just say that this is a taxpayers’ class action lawsuit as well as a suit on behalf of the families and the basic three arguments are they violated the Constitution by ordering this event. And secondly that they [garbled] fraudulent Federal Claims Act, Title 31 of the U.S. Code in which Bush presented false and fraudulent evidence to Congress to get the Iraq war authorization. And, of course, he related it to 9/11 and claimed that Saddam was involved with that, and all these lies.

    AJ: Tell you what, stay there. Stanley, we’ve got to break. Let’s come back and get into the evidence.

    BREAK

    AJ: Alright my friends, second hour, September 10th, 2004, the anniversary of the globalist attack coming up tomorrow. It’s an amazing individual we have on the line. Bob Dole’s former chief of staff, political scientist, a lawyer, he went to school with Rumsfeld and others, he wrote his thesis about how to turn America into a dictatorship using a fake Pearl Harbor attack. He’s suing the U.S. government for carrying out 9/11. He has hundreds of the victims’ families signing onto it – it’s a $7 billion lawsuit. And he is Stanley Hilton. I know that a lot of stations just joined us in Los Angeles and Rhode Island and Missouri and Florida and all over. Please sir, recap what you were just stating and then let’s get into the new evidence. And then we’ll get into why you are being harassed by the FBI, as other FBI people are being harassed who have been blowing the whistle on this. So, this is really getting serious. Stanley, tell us all about it.

    SH: Yeah, we are suing Bush, Condoleeza Rice, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Mueller, etc. for complicity in personally not only allowing 9/11 to happen but in ordering it. The hijackers we retained and we had a witness who is married to one of them. The hijackers were U.S. undercover agents. They were double agents, paid by the FBI and the CIA to spy on Arab groups in this country. They were controlled. Their landlord was an FBI informant in San Diego and other places. And this was a direct, covert operation ordered, personally ordered by George W. Bush. Personally ordered. We have incriminating evidence, documents as well as witnesses, to this effect. It’s not just incompetence – in spite of the fact that he is incompetent. The fact is he personally ordered this, knew about it. He, at one point, there were rehearsals of this. The reason why he appeared to be uninterested and nonchalant on September 11th – when those videos showed that Andrew Card whispered in his ear the [garbled] words about this he listened to kids reading the pet goat story, is that he thought this was another rehearsal. These people had dress rehearsed this many times. He had seen simulated videos of this. In fact, he even made a Freudian slip a few months later at a California press conference when he said he had, quote, “seen on television the first plane attack the first tower.” And that could not be possible because there was no video. What it was was the simulated video that he had gone over. So this was a personally government ordered thing.

    We are suing them under the Constitution for violating American’s rights, as well as under the federal Fraudulent Claims Act, for presenting a fraudulent claim to Congress to justify the bogus Iraq boondoggle war, for political gains. And also, under the RICO statute, under the Racketeering Corrupt Organization Act, for being a corrupt entity.

    And I’ve been harassed personally by the chief judge of the federal court who is instructing me personally to drop this suit, threatened to kick me off the court, after 30-years on the court. I’ve been harassed by the FBI. My staff has been harassed and threatened. My office has been broken into and this is the kind of government we are dealing with.

    AJ: Absolutely and now it has come out – five separate drills of flying hijacked jets into buildings that morning – which you told us about before it even broke in the Associated Press. They were trying to get out ahead of you. You talked about how you interviewed military people who were told it was a drill that morning. Then to get out ahead of that, the news finally reported on it. Now, we’ve learned that all these operations – I want to get into that, I want to talk about the new incriminating evidence of ordering it and how they had drilled on this, how Cheney was in the bunker controlling this. That has even come out in the mainstream news but they won’t release the details of that, Stanley. But what type of FBI harassment are you going through?

    SH: First of all, my office was burglarized in San Francisco several months ago. Files were gone through and some files were seized – particularly the ones dealing with the lady that was married to one of the hijackers. Fortunately, I had spare copies in a hidden place so nothing disappeared permanently. But more significantly, FBI agents have been harassing one of my staff members and threatening them with vague but frightening threats of indicting them. And it’s just total harassment. They have planted a spy, an undercover agent, in my organization, as we just recently discovered. In other words, these are Nazi Germany tactics. This is the kind of government you have in this country. This is what Bush is all about.

    AJ: Stay there Stanley, Bob Dole’s former chief of staff. We’ll come back after this quick break. Please stay with us.

    BREAK

    AJ: Alright, eight minutes, 25 seconds into the second hour. Stanley Hilton, political scientist, lawyer, Bob Dole’s former chief of staff, is suing the government for 7 billion dollars for carrying out 9/11 and for racketeering. And he joins us now. During the break, I first really did the big interview with Stanley Hilton after I saw him attacked on Fox News. And that interview got massive attention. And then he kind of went underground for a while because a judge, we’re going to talk about that, ordered him to not do any more interviews. And now he’s back doing interviews. He’s had his office broken into, FBI threats and harassment. Bottom line, he has deposed military individuals, wives of hijackers, you name it, it was a government operation. It has even come out in mainstream news, a piece here, a piece there. They had drills on 9/11, that’s why NORAD stood down. Cheney was in control of the whole thing. Stanley Hilton has now gotten documents about how Bush ordered the whole operation. And I’ll tell you right now, his life is in danger, folks. And he’s got so much courage. He went to school with these neocons at the University of Chicago. He wrote his thesis on how the government could use terrorist attacks to set up martial law. He is the man for the time and folks wondered why he disappeared for a while and just did his lawsuit and wasn’t doing interviews, it was because he was ordered to.

    Stanley, can you get into that for us?

    SH: I did an interview with you, Alex, back in March of 2003, about a year and a half ago, and literally two weeks after that, I was contacted by the emissary of the chief judge of the federal court where I have the lawsuit. And I was warned not to publicize it but to keep it quiet and threatened with discipline. And it remained quiet until a couple of months ago and then I got on the air on some programs and some publicity and… July 1st, I was threatened directly by the chief judge here, threatened with court discipline. This particular judge has been circulating communiqués to the other federal judges seeking anything negative she can get against me to try and discipline me after I’ve been on the court here for 30-years with no disciplinary problems at all. This is suddenly happening. And her assistants who are on the committee of the court met with me on July 1st in Palo Alto, California, and threatened me directly. They handed me a copy of the lawsuit and said that the judge wants me to dismiss this. What’s this? She doesn’t like the content of it. This is politically incorrect. This is outside the norm. I said I represented more than 400 plaintiffs, how am I going to dismiss this case? And they threatened me directly and they said, “the next time you’ll be disciplined.” And also they’ve threatened me not to go public, etc. And this is just outrageous….

    AJ: It’s all color of law. No direct orders, just all in your face.

    SH: They sent a letter out, and of course they deny it’s because of the political content of the suit but they told me directly on the phone that it is because of this suit and this judge is very, very angry, apparently has been in contact with Ashcroft’s Justice Department. I got a call from Ashcroft’s Justice Department a few months ago about this, demanding that I drop the suit, threatening sanctions and all kinds of things. I refused to drop it.

    AJ: Now let’s go back over, you had them break into your office, harassment. Let’s go over that in detail.

    SH: My office was broken into about 6 months ago. The file cabinets – it was obvious they had been rifled through. Files were stolen. Files dealing with this particular case and particularly with the documents I had regarding the fact that the – some of these hijackers, at least some of them were on the payroll of the U.S. government as undercover FBI, CIA, double agents. They are spying on Arab groups in the U.S. And, in effect, all this lead up to the effect that al Qaeda is a creation of the George Bush administration, basically. That’s the entity that he called al Qaeda.is directly linked to George Bush. And all this stuff was stolen. Fortunately, I had copies. But this was just part of the harassment. The FBI has also been harassing some of my assistants and has planted a spy in our midst. And it is just outrageous that these Nazi tactics are being used – and the obstruction of justice, these people are criminals. And that’s what’s happening under the tremendous pressure here to just drop it. Or to shut up now and just go away.

    AJ: Now, let’s talk about what they want you to drop. Let’s talk about, without giving names, the people you deposed, what really happened, the picture you’ve got. You said earlier that Bush ordered this, they were simulating this which they now admit there were simulations on that morning. Let’s go over what they don’t want you to talk about, Stanley.

    SH: We have evidence both documentary as well as witness sworn statements from undercover former FBI agents, FBI informants, etc., that other officials in the Pentagon and the military and the Air Force that deal with the fact that there were many drills, many rehearsals for 9/11 before it happened. Bush had seen this simulated on TV many times. He blurted this out at a press conference in California a few months after 9/11 where he said he had, quote, seen the first plane hit the first building on the video. And that’s not possible because there was no official video of that. There was one of the second plane not the first one. He had seen the first one.

    We do have some incriminating documents that Bush personally ordered 9/11 events. It was well planned. A FEMA official has admitted on tape that he was there the night before – September 10th, that is …

    AJ: And now Mayor Giuliani, a few months ago in the 911 Commission, admitted that – Tripod II. They had their whole command post already moved out of Building 7. Now, this is very, very important. This is a key area of this whole event. You said months before it came out on the CIA’s own website and the Associated Press, you said I deposed people. They said there were drills that morning and exactly what happened, happening – that was the smoke-screen for the stand-down. And then to get out ahead of it, the CIA comes out and said yeah we were running a drill that morning. Now, we’ve learned that five, possibly six, were confirmed. Five of these – one drill with the exact same thing happening that actually happened, at the exact same time in the morning. That’s why NORAD stood down with 24 different blips on the screen. You’ve said this. You brought this up first. Now, I know you can’t get too much into detail but can you tell us how you learned of this?

    SH: I have interviewed individuals in NORAD and the Air Force. I personally toured NORAD many years ago around the time that I worked for Dole. I’m very familiar with the operations at Cheyenne Mountain at Colorado Springs, where NORAD is. Individuals that work in NORAD as well as the Air Force have stated this, off the record, but the point is, yes, this was not just five drills but at least 35 drills over at least two months before September 11th. Everything was planned, the exact location……

    AJ: But five drills that day.

    SH: That day, that day, and Bush thought it was a drill. That’s the only explanation for why he appeared nonchalant………

    AJ: We also had NORAD officers and civilian air traffic controllers going, “Is this part of the exercise? Is this a drill?”

    SH: Yes.

    AJ: On the tapes and in TV interviews, they thought it was, quote, a drill.

    SH: That’s right. That’s exactly what I said long before it became public. I’ve known about this since earlier in March of ’03, as I stated before. This was all planned. This was a government ordered operation. Bush personally signed the order. He personally authorized the attacks. He is guilty of treason and mass murder. And now, obstruction of justice by attempting to use a federal judge and FBI agents to inhibit a legitimate civil lawsuit in this country, in federal court. Even a chief judge in this court tried to harass and threaten me personally for representing legitimate plaintiffs. And they got Clinton for allegedly lying under oath about Paula Jones and now – look what’s happening now. And Ken Starr used to be across from me in Duke Law School in the early ‘70s and it’s interesting that he got away with trying to get Clinton impeached, so we have a far worse criminal sitting in the oval office today – somebody guilty of mass murder as well as obstruction of justice.

    AJ: Well, I mean look, they say they never heard of a plan to fly planes into buildings – said it all over television – Rice, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft. And then we find out they were running all these drills that morning. Even if they weren’t involved, that proves they were liars about ever hearing of such a plan.

    SH: Well, I’m trying to take their depositions – I’ve been trying to take their depositions for months. They’ve been trying to object to it. They will have to admit they were either lying then or now. It’s clearly perjury either way. They are liars and perjurers; that’s what they are. These are the people that we have running this government and, of course, they knew about it. How are they going to claim now that they didn’t know about these drills? Their idea is that nobody knew anything. It’s the old know nothing mentality. And how anybody considers this believable is beyond me.

    AJ: Alright, now people ask how could a huge organization, how could the AWACs, how could the military let this happen; whereas before, if your Cessna got off course for five minutes, they would launch F-16s on you. It’s real simple. It’s what Stanley Hilton said here a year and a half ago. It’s what came out in the news after that. The military, good people, were told this was all a drill. And it was not a drill. And ABC News admits that Cheney was in control of [?] out of the White House [?] and that he ordered the military to quote “do something.” Our inside sources from Hilton and others say it was a stand down and they admit they will not release that under national security. Stanley?

    SH: Well they are going to admit it, they’re going to release it in the court case because if you demand it under subpoena powers and they must release it. And part of our lawsuit is brought in the name of the U.S. because under the federal fraudulent [Claims Act], we accuse the Bush Administration of presenting a fraudulent claim to Congress. And under the statutes of Title 31 of the U.S. code, they must release this information. That’s why they are trying to threaten me, harass me, invade my office, steal my files, commit blatant obstruction of justice and other crimes to try and prevent a legitimate civil suit from exposing these criminals and their acts of treason and mass murder.

    AJ: I think you need to publicly tell folks that you are not planning suicide. Would you like to tell folks that?

    SH: (laughs) I’m not planning suicide. I’ve got family and I’m not planning that but I don’t like the threats I’m under – but I can tell you this, it’s taking a toll emotionally on me and my staff. And particularly, when you get a threat from the chief judge of your own court.

    AJ: Why have you decided to go public again after a year of being under the radar?

    SH: Because the more and more evidence that I’ve been adducing over a year and a half has made it so obvious to me that this was now without any doubt a government operation and that it amounts to the biggest act of treason and mass murder in American history. I mean George Bush makes Benedict Arnold look like a patriot. He makes Benedict Arnold look like George Washington. I mean that’s what we have – a criminal and a traitor sitting in the White House pretending he’s a patriot, wrapping himself in the flag. And it’s pretty disgusting because the other side of the so-called opposition, the Kerry camp is just saying nothing because they’re afraid to speak.

    AJ: Stay right there. We’ll be right back.

    BREAK

    AJ: Stanley Hilton will be with us for another 15 or 16 minutes. Then he’s got to go into court. Bob Dole’s former chief of staff, political scientist, lawyer, represents 400 plus plaintiffs – most of them victims of 9/11. When I was in New York last week, everybody I was talking to, I mean 90 plus percent of them at ground zero – “I had family, I worked in the buildings, my son’s a Navy Seal – he called the night before and said don’t go to work.” You know, all of this, and then now they never had any idea – and it turns out they had all these drills – and one drill of hijacked jets flying into the World Trade Center and Pentagon at 8:30 in the morning. That morning – come on people! And Stanley Hilton brought all this out on this show before it was in the mainstream news. And I was talking to him during the break. I mean, the harassment, the moles, the threatening of his staff, the judge threatening him. Stanley, let’s get specifically into the documents that you have now got that they have now been robbing you for, that you luckily, thank God had copies. Specifically, Bush ordering this. Can you get into that for us – ordering 9/11?

    SH: National Security Council classified documents which [garbled] and it’s was part of a series of documents that were involved with the drill documents. This was all planned – they had it on videotape. These planes were controlled by remote control, as I stated previously a year and a half ago, there’s a system called Cyclops. There is a computer chip in the nose of the plane and it enables the ground control, the military ground control, to disable the pilot’s control of the plane and to control it and to fly it directly into those towers. That’s what happened. It’s also a technology used on what’s called the Global Hawk, which is an aircraft drone – a remote-controlled aircraft. And they were doing it. We are talking about National Security Council classified documents that clearly indicated that [garbled] had a green light to order this to go and this is no drill. These drills that were running were clearly a dress rehearsal and this was a government operation. You wonder why these people are trying to threaten people and trying to intimidate people who have written this suit, I guess if you murdered 3000 of your own citizens, in conjunction with the corrupt Royal family of Saudi Arabia as Bush did. And if you then waste billions more on a worthless garbage war in Iraq, I guess you’ve got something to worry about and you want to threaten people to prevent it from coming out.

    AJ: I mean let’s look at this. Not only are there dress rehearsals, they are smoke screens so the good military stands down and doesn’t know what’s happening. But it’s now coming out, even in mainstream news, that yes these drills were going on. Yes, and some of these drills, quote, passenger-type jets were under remote control – this is decades old technology. In 1958, NORAD was [ ] old jets and using them for target practice. Decades ago they flew jumbo jets from LA to Sidney Australia. So since that’s going on, everybody knows that. And it’s the same MO. Just like the first World Trade Center [bombing] where they get two retarded men who followed this blind sheik who had a tiny mosque above a pizza pallor. And they set them up as the patsies. Then the FBI cooks the bomb, trains the drivers. This informant goes, “You’re not going to bomb the building? They go “Yeah, we’re letting it go forward.” He tapes them to protect themselves. The two retarded gentlemen, thank God, didn’t park it up against the column, as the FBI instructed them to do, so it didn’t bring down the tower – because you have to be right up against the column. That doesn’t happen. Yet, it’s the same thing with 9/11. You’ve got these CIA agents, these Arabs, who were trained at U.S. military bases, Pensacola Naval Air Station – mainstream media, out creating their legends for this background. They’re on board the aircraft. My military sources say nerve gas kills everybody on board the plane – nerve gas packets. Then they fly the planes into buildings. From your inside sources, is that accurate?

    SH: It’s one of the things that we are looking into – that nerve gas or something else disabled people. It’s possible. I can’t say for sure to be honest with you…

    AJ: All you know is they were government agents and they were on board and the planes were remote controlled.

    SH: Yeah, it was basically a smokescreen. I mean, the events of the hijackings, how someone snuck in those cutters, it was a plant. It was like a classic decoy. I’ve got some military background. And it’s called decoy. It’s a decoy operation. You make the people focus on the decoy to avoid looking at the real criminals. So they are focusing on these so-called nineteen hijackers and saying, “Oh, it must have been these Arabs. When, in fact, the guilty person is at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue – sitting in the oval office. That’s the guilty person. That’s the one who authorized it. There is only one man who could have authorized this operation and that’s Bush. And anyone at NORAD will tell you as I have been told personally at NORAD in the war control room, there is only one man who has the power to do this kind of thing and that’s Bush. Even though many believe he’s a puppet. And I think in many ways he is. The fact of the matter is where was [ ] Cheney, Rumsfeld and these other traitors. The fact is Bush personally ordered and he’s guilty and liable and he’s going to be re-elected apparently because the media’s asleep and [garbled] for Bush.

    AJ: Well, the media is owned by the same military industrial complex that carried out the attacks.

    SH: Yeah, the media is only interested in maintaining the official government fantasy that this was a little lone Arab. These Arabs couldn’t even steer that plane down a runway.

    AJ: Stay there Stanley, final segment coming up.

    BREAK

    AJ: Mr. Hilton, when you talk to these FBI agents, when you talk to these military men and women, what’s their attitude? They’ve got to be pretty freaked out to have the big picture and know what actually happened on 9/11.

    SH: Yes, you know it’s like clouds just before a thunderstorm in the sense that they are sort of pregnant with rage. They are just enraged at the criminal politicians who have perverted and misused the government to murder its own citizens and pursue these dubious political ends. And many of them, in increasing numbers, are willing to talk and will talk under subpoena – but only under subpoena because the official party line of the government is shut up and don’t talk to the trial lawyer. But more and more, they are very outraged that part of the government has done this to its own people, to its own people. I mean you have to go back to Stalin to see something – not even Hitler did this to his own people. You have to look at Stalin who murdered the Kulaks, the Russians for his own dubious gains. Also we’ve got – we have a Stalinist mentality in this country. And, if these people pose as patriots and wrap themselves in the flag, it’s disgusting.

    I wanted also to point out that the Japanese television network, Asahi, is going to be airing a special on primetime tomorrow, on September 11th. They interviewed me for eight hours a couple of weeks ago. I’ll be on that. I wish – of course, the America media don’t care so they are not going to care. But in Japan, people are very serious in interviewing me and others. And we have a website now, called deprogram.info, if more people are interested: http://www.deprogram.info.

    But the other thing, I just wanted to say that if anything happens to me – and I don’t know why – because I’m being threatened here now. And it seems you can’t bring a case in this country anymore against criminals in power without being threatened. And this is how they operate. The stakes are pretty high when you’ve got a world historical level of treason and fraud by this government against it’s own people. I guess this is what you have to expect.

    AJ: Stanley, the globalists, the new world order crowd, definitely intend to carry out more terror attacks. I know they would have carried out more attacks if we wouldn’t have done what we’ve been up to, if you wouldn’t have been out there boldly speaking out and many others. And then their electronic Berlin wall has a bunch of cracks in it now. Thanks to good people like yourself and many others who are speaking out and telling the truth. But do you think that they may carry out what they’ve been hyping – a suitcase nuke attack, a biological release to try to smokescreen all of this? I know it’s a catch 22, you’ve got to expose the murderers. We’ve got to get the word out on this but some government people that I’ve talk to say, “Yeah, but if you do that, they are going to go even more hard core and must totally try to take over.” But I say regardless, they are already doing that. So what do you say to that?

    SH: Well, yeah, I think they have an agenda. They have contingency plans. I think they are laying low now because there are an increasing number of people, like myself, who are openly challenging them and accusing them of criminal conduct. I think they would have done it again if we had not spoken up. I think they’re planning, what they would like to do is silence any dissenters. That’s why we are trying to get the Patriot Act declared unconstitutional in this lawsuit also.

    AJ: Let’s talk about polls. In the beginning a patriot is a scarce man, hated and feared, but in time when his cause succeeds, the timid join him, because then it costs nothing to be a patriot. You are one of those guys who hit the barbwire for us, or figuratively jumped on the hand grenade for America. But when you’ve got a Zogby poll, who is highly respected, half of New Yorkers believe that the government was involved. When you have a Canadian poll, 63% on average believe that the U.S. government was involved. And some groups, as high as 76% in polls believe the government was involved. European polls, two-thirds show the same thing. We have German defense ministers and technology ministers and another member of their government now, three of them going public, known conservatives, and progressives. You have an environment minister, Michael Meacher, saying that if they didn’t do it, they sure as hell knew what was going on. Look, if anybody who is a thinking person looks at the evidence, their official story is impossible. Then you investigate and they are involved in it. Comments to this massive awakening and what’s happening.

    SH: Well, I think that’s why they want the Patriot Act to suppress political dissent. They have to, they’re anticipating, they are not dumb individuals. I know these people personally, Wolfowitz. These are criminal individuals but they are smart and so they anticipated political dissent. And that’s why, like the Nazis, their forebears, and their blood brothers, the Nazis and the Stalinists, they’re all for political repression. Every corrupt and criminal government has done this – they suppress their own people: Nazi Germany, Communist Russia, Mao Tse-Tung, that’s why we have the Patriot Act. So it’s hand in hand. They had it planned to go right up to September 11th, this was all part of the plan. You have to do it. It was part of my senior thesis. You must follow through the terrorists attacks with a political suppression mechanism in the law. And that’s why they want Patriot I and Patriot II and their plans are to continue launching more terrorist attacks to justify even more repression. The goal is to make this a one party dictatorship in this country, to pursue their dubious ends with their blood brothers like the Saudi Royal family. And also, historical blood brothers, such as the Nazi Germany and the Communist Russian. That’s the goal

    AJ: You’ve got to go in just a minute or two. But I wanted to also tell you about New York. Sound cannons that are used in Iraq, they’re against us. Men in black ski masks. 41,000 police, accredited media being arrested randomly. Children being arrested, people in wheelchairs, 2000 plus people put in a camp with barbwire fences inside with no bathrooms. You had to have permission to go to the porta-potties. Police screaming at you. It had nothing to do with terrorism. They are openly setting the precedent for martial law.

    SH: Well, that’s right, the word terrorist is now being overly broad and overly defined [garbled] and also, you know, it’s like the word communist was used for anything during the McCarthy witch hunt. And anybody can be called a terrorist by Bush’s definition. But the irony is that the number one terrorist in the world is living at the White House at the oval office today. That’s the real irony. For sheer hypocrisy, I think he deserves the world prize and ought to be in the Ripley book, Believe It or Not, and the Guinness book of world records for sheer brazen chicanery and fraud.

    AJ: Let me ask you a question on this because this is the experience that I had. Watching television, watching the killers, watching those that are guilty, stand up there as our saviors is incredibly painful. It’s like watching Ted Bundy being the judge at his own trial. I mean it is just painful to know who these people are. To see them putting America is a shredder. Now we are going to have forced psychological testing of every American, forced drugging, you know Pan-American unions, I mean it’s just all happening, it’s in our face, Stanley.

    SH: Yeah, it’s very disturbing and as one who has studied the theory and concept of dictatorships, I personally interviewed Albert Speer, who was Hitler’s armaments minister. I interviewed him in 1981 in Munich. And I’ve studied the psychology and history of totalitarianism and there is no question that it’s very frightening. And it has, today, with high technology, albeit for the first time in history, the chance of having a world empire dominated by corrupt, technologically oriented government – an elite government. And they’ve got now what people like Napoleon and Hitler didn’t have, which is the technological means to dominate not only their own country but others – the world.

    AJ: The answer is to expose them as the terrorists, to show how PNAC [Project for the New American Century] said we need helpful Pearl Harbor events, to show how Northwoods called for the exact 9/11-style attacks, to show their own plans. And to force people to face this horror. What are they going to do in a year or two when 80% of us, not half of us, know the truth?

    SH: Well, that’s why they want repression and, then again, the ancient old diversion, launch another terrorist attack to get people to pitch it away. I mean who knows what they’ll do next. I mean their capacity for ingenious creation of these events is sort of untraveled. I mean there is no limit. My guess is they are going to try another stunt – maybe a stunt just before the election to justify getting Bush reelected. Although it seems like he is running against a straw man or a ghost right now, anyway. But, my guess is they’ll try some other tactic to get people’s attention away from 9/11 if it gets to be too much attention. What you really want is for the public to just lose interest because the public – and it’s like remember the Alamo, you know, people don’t forget things like that. To me it’s like the Alamo, remember 9/11, that ought to be the slogan for this outrageous act of treason. That’s what it is. It’s not……

    AJ: We are at a crossroads, I don’t think they anticipated this much resistance, Stanley.

    SH: Yeah, I hope they are truly wrong and as incompetent as they are corrupt and guilty. That means their incompetence is exceeded only by their corruption and their guilt. And eventually, if enough people are going to get outraged enough, these people in the bureaucracy and in the civil service and our military, and eventually we can get people under subpoena these individuals will be exposed.

    AJ: Stanley, their whole operation hinges on us being naïve and not recognizing evil. This is what they got with Hitler and others. People couldn’t recognize evil so they continued to repeat succumbing to it. We are recognizing it this time. We are putting our lives, our treasure, our future on the line for freedom because we cannot let these blood-thirsty control freak terrorists capture us and use us and turn us into the empire and have a draft and use us as their slaves to invade the planet. And that’s their PNAC plan. Stanley Hilton, I know you’ve got to get to court. God bless you. I want to thank you for being here with us today. Can we get you back on next week?

    SH: Sure, just give me a call.

    AJ: God bless you my friend. Any closing comments?

    SH: My closing comments would be, I think people ought to just think about the consequence of having someone like Bush in the White House and the danger for the future that these sort of individuals pose. This is not just a historical event of the past. This is part of the plan and the camera is still rolling. They have an agenda. These individuals are extremely dangerous. They are armed and dangerous. They pose a clear and dangerous threat to every freedom-loving person not only American but in the whole world.

    AJ: You are absolutely right Stanley Hilton. They have captured the government. They have not captured the peoples’ minds and they are counting on us not facing up to it.

    SH: And they are counting on the repressive Patriot Act and threats and chief judges and FBI agents threatening people who are exposing them. That’s what they are counting on.

    AJ: But you’re not backing down are you, my friend.

    SH: No, I’m not

    AJ: Well, we all stand with you, my brother, and God bless you.

    SH: All right. Thank you.

  • Nancy

    Hey Irish, how do these all tie in w/Schubsto’s observations? Any links (not internet, I mean intellectual)?

    No, I don’t think that, I suspect a lot of others don’t, either. Those that yell about race the loudest usually don’t have much of an argument & are hoping to embarrass the opposition into backing down w/out further discussion, because it’s not politically correct.

  • http://paperfrigate.blogspot.com DrPat

    Hey, hdhntr – get a room! Or, in this case, your own post! Seriously, don’t you think an opus like this is better off on its own page, with its own trail of comments?

  • Eric Olsen

    I finally figured out what all this frenzied theorizing reminds me of: astrology

  • Nancy

    Astrology?! How?

  • hdhntr

    “don’t you think an opus like this is better off on its own page, with its own trail of comments?”

    Nope. Not if you take the frick’n time to read it!

  • hdhntr

    Last post then, on that issue.

    http://www.tvnewslies.org/html/9_11_facts.html

    On the morning of September 11th, 2001, Dick Cheney was running several war games in the north eastern portion of the United States. These drills included many hijacking scenarios, where hijacked commercial jets were hijacked and flown into buildings. At the same time Cheney had arranged for a drill involving a bio attack on NY. This resulted in FEMA setting up a command post on pier 29 in New York on September 10th.

    The war games involved live fly exercises, and electronic drills where fake blips were placed on radar screens. Cheney was in charge of a communications system that superseded those of the FAA, NORAD and NEADS. Some of the drills possibly included remote control planes.

    Cheney was in a position to have the air defense agencies stand down.

    From from September 2000 to June 2001, 67 planes steered off course. All 67 times our air defense systems worked as they should, and interceptors were launched. You may remember this happening when Payne Stewart and his crew died in flight. On September 11th, 2001, when Dick Cheney was running his war games, 4 jet airliners were supposedly hijacked, and all our systems that have worked flawlessly 67 times that year, failed. Coincidence?

    While these facts seem to incriminate Cheney, all you can do within reason is ask these questions:

    Was Cheney in a position to have the defense systems stand down?
    Did Cheney, a member of PNAC, a group who expressed the fact that their agenda would be better accepted if we had a “new Pearl Harbor”, have a motive? Did he benefit from the events?
    Could the events have been an accident? Could the drills have gone bad?
    Why did the 9/11 Commission Report omit the information about the drills, making only 1 mention of them in a single footnote. The report only mentioned 1 drill, and falsely described it as a drill to defend against Russian Bombers. In the age of ICBMs, are we to believe that we have to practice defending the nation against Russian bombers in the north eastern portion of the US?
    Why have the news media neglected to inform the public of Cheney’s actions that day?
    Why did Bush and Cheney insist on being questioned by the commission together, without being taped, without taking an oath and with no records kept?
    If you did not know this information, you have to ask yourself why it is not common knowledge? You also have to ask what else don’t you know?
    In the years following the event, have you ever heard from the people who you were told committed these acts? Or, have you only been told why this happened by the people who want you to believe their story.
    Use your common sense. Do you think the global intelligence powers failed this badly? Do you think men who could barely pilot a 2 seat plane can navigate across several states and find their target? Are you that gullible? Have some self respect, and think before you believe what you are told.

    ——————————————————————————–
    EXPERT: Source: FromtheWilderness.com
    Simplifying the case against Dick Cheney

    There are 3 major points made within this book that are crucial to proving Cheney’s guilt. I shall first list them and then go on to prove each point as laid out in Crossing the Rubicon.

    1. Means – Dick Cheney and the Secret Service: Dick Cheney was running a completely separate chain of Command & Control via the Secret Service, assuring the paralysis of Air Force response on 9/11. The Secret Service has the technology to see the same radar screens the FAA sees in real time. They also have the legal authority and technological capability to take supreme command in cases of national emergency. Dick Cheney was the acting Commander in Chief on 9/11. (Click here for a summary of these points)

    2. Motive – Peak Oil: At some point between 2000 and 2007, world oil production reaches its peak; from that point on, every barrel of oil is going to be harder to find, more expensive to recover, and more valuable to those who recover and control it. Dick Cheney was well aware of the coming Peak Oil crisis at least as early as 1999, and 9/11 provided the pretext for the series of energy wars that Cheney stated, “will not end in our lifetime.” (Click here for a summary of these points)

    3. Opportunity – 9/11 War Games: The Air Force was running multiple war games on the morning of 9/11 simulating hijackings over the continental United States that included (at least) one “live-fly” exercise as well as simulations that placed “false blips” on FAA radar screens. These war games eerily mirrored the real events of 9/11 to the point of the Air Force running drills involving hijacked aircraft as the 9/11 plot actually unfolded. The war games & terror drills played a critical role in ensuring no Air Force fighter jocks – who had trained their entire lives for this moment – would be able to prevent the attacks from succeeding. These exercises were under Dick Cheney’s management. (Click here for a summary of these points)

    911 War Games Ops (Command and Control Infrastructure) MUST SEE
    http://www.prisonplanet.tv/articles/september2004/200904wargames.htm

  • Danse macabre

    A word on the “debunkers”:

    From Tarlpey’s book “Synthetic Terror”:

    At its root, the belief structure of the 9/11 myth is not a factual account of an historical, real-world event. Still less is it an example of euhemerism, in which real events are preserved in more or less distorted mythical form. The 9/11 myth is rather a collective psychosis of a paranoid schizophrenic type. Let us explore for a moment what this might mean. What is now referred to as schizophrenia was formerly known as dementia praecox; the change in terminology is due to Eugen Bleuler, who used it to describe not so much a split personality as a lack of coordination among various psychological functions. Bleuler was also the first to speak of the special quality of schizoid thinking, which he called autistic. Simple schizophrenia is marked by a reduction in external relations and interests; this may include a lack of curiosity. �Emotions are lacking in depth; ideation is simple and refers to concrete things�and a retreat to simpler or stereotyped forms of behavior.� Paranoid schizophrenia generally occurs in later life, and
    �is characterized primarily by unrealistic, illogical thinking, with delusions of persecution or grandeur, and often by hallucinations.� In psychoanalysis, the description of schizophrenia emphasizes �regressive symptoms,� seen as a retreat to less mature levels of the ego (the reality-testing portion of the psyche),� along with attempts to replace the existing world, from which the patient has retreated, by such phenomena as hallucinations, delusions, fantasies of world reconstruction, and peculiarities of language.� (Silvano Arieti, �Schizophrenia,� Encyclopedia Britannica, 1971) The points of contact with Bush as the chief 9/11 fear-monger, and with the 9/11 myth, are manifold.

    WUE: CATSTROPHE FROM OUTSIDE A PERFECT SYSTEM

    A vital part of the WUE brought about inside the perfect system by evil forces is that these evil forces are axiomatically seen as coming from outside of that perfect system.
    Evil is always external, never home grown, as it was for the racist southern sheriff who thought that all racial tensions were the work of outside agitators. �The result is that when the evidence of the historicity of existence forces itself on the misoneism [hatred of change] of reified consciousness, it appears as an unexpected catastrophe, inexplicable and often attributed therefore to external action�.For sociocentrism, the privileged system being perfect, any change (particularly any unfavorable change) is the work of external maleficent powers.� (Gabel 288 and note) Gerhard Wisnewski has related this idea most directly to 9/11. As Wisnewski points out, �from outside� is the central slogan of the official version of 9/11. �The impression is produced that the perpetrators came
    �from outside�: from outside of the building, from outside of America, even from outside civilization. The official version of these events screams �outside, outside, outside.�� (Wisnewski 143)

    In a world axiomatically defined by terrorism, the Manichean outlook seems destined always to win out. Sanguinetti saw something similar in Italy at the beginning of the strategy of tension: �In view of terrorism presented as absolute evil, evil in itself and for itself, all the other evils fade in to the background and are even forgotten; since the fight against terrorism coincides with the common interest, it already is the general good, and the State, which magnanimously conducts it, is good in itself and for itself. Without the wickedness of the devil, God�s infinite bounty could not appear and be appreciated as is fitting.� (Sanguinetti 3)

    INFANTILE EGOCENTRISM AND ETHNOCENTRISM

    Many have noted the primitive and childish quality of the Bush/neocon analysis, with its mindless parroting about good guys and bad guys. Bush�s oratory also shares another key feature of the infantile mind � egocentrism, or the tendency to see large and distant events as having been caused by ones own petty actions. This is present in the suburbanite who thinks that getting the car washed will make the rain come down. After 9/11, Bush notoriously divided the world into terrorist bad guys and pro-American good guys. He insisted, in other words, that the world should be forever organized around this single event. Gabel shows that adult egocentrism and schizophrenia go together: �A zoologist who, having been successively bitten by a dog and a cat, used as a scientific concept �the
    animal species which bites zoologists� would be guilty of false egocentric
    identification�.False identification is an important aspect of the anti-dialectical structure of ideologies and, at the same time, a valued technique of economy of effort for propaganda.� (Gabel 92) What egocentrism represents in the stunted individual, ethnocentrism accomplishes for the sick society. Think of Bush�s post-9/11 axis of evil, composed of Iraq, Iran, and North Korea. Yet, there had been no rogue states� summit to sign a treaty of alliance among these three. Iraq and Iran had been enemies, and North Korea, a true hermit kingdom, lived in its own isolation. Yet, Bush insisted like a small child in defining the three exclusively in relation to himself � within, it should go without saying, a universe of discourse already defined by the 9/11 myth. Once again, Gabel described something similar under the Nazis. Under the Nazi regime, �the non-German world seems to a large extent seems to have been interpreted in terms of the postulate that
    the enemy world was homogeneous. This was less because of working hypothesis about propaganda than ideological convictions of a delirious nature�.� (Gabel 120) The Nazis portrayed a world of capitalists, Bolsheviks, and Jews who were all mythically united in their hatred for Germany.

  • Eric Olsen

    which aspect of all this do you buy into, Nancy?

  • Nancy

    Don’t know yet, Eric; I’m trying to balance blogging w/closing out the current fiscal year and setting up for the new one tomorrow. :o

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com/ andy marsh

    I just wish someone would explain to me why…if they were gonna knock the buildings down anyway…they wasted two perfectly good airplanes???

  • irishdrifter

    Nancy you skated past my question. Who do you think is responsible for 911?

    My post was like a “collage” of responses to several points made on various previous posts.

    Some Quick questions

    Why were the Bin Ladin Family jetted out of the States immediately post 911?
    or
    A better question is what were they doing in the States on 911?

    “Hello mother. This is Osama Bin Ladin, your son, yes, that one yes. Listen tell all the clan that I have a little wheeze planned, you and the rest of the family better get your asses back to Saudi”.

    Why would Osama put his own Family in the frame?? He would have known that they would have been arrested immediatley, he could not have known the CIA would stick them on a private chartered Jumbo with gold toilets. I kid you not!

    Why was the steel from the Towers shipped to China and melted, quicker than you can say Gerald Ratner?

    How did 500,000 cubic feet of reinforced skyscraper quality concrete turn to 40 micron particle dust – in 10 seconds?

  • Eric Olsen

    it’s like astrology because it is working from false assumptions, ascribing nefarious intent to coincidence, and saying what is cannot be because it doesn’t fit arbitrary rules they have set up, AND because it goes so far out of its way to ignore the painfully obvious. Don’t allow your dislike for the Bush administration to lead you into the land of the loonies

  • http://selfaudit.blogspot.com Aaman

    Don’t look now, Eric, but there’s a planet falling towards you

  • Nancy

    Eric, I used to work for a government agency that specialized in relying on people to think that only loonies would believe certain things, that’s why I entertain the postulations, at least. Irish, I really couldn’t give a decent evalution at this moment; I’m up to my gluteus maximi in crocodilians. I’m 50.5% in favor, but it’s no mandate at the moment, how’s that? Best I can do. Thanks.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com/ andy marsh

    Nancy – are you the smoking man???

  • Nancy

    No – I’m the nonsmoking woman.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com/ andy marsh

    It’s my understanding that some of that steel you speak of was actually sent to Louisiana and melted down to make the bow of a new class of Amphibious war ship…the name of this new ship…the USS New York City. Of course…that’s just more propoganda…to keep us in the dark…

    it’s also my understanding that osama and his family don’t get along…that’s why he doesn’t live in saudi…at least one of the reasons…

    and lastly…I really really don’t know why I keep reading this craziness!

  • Nancy

    Anyone considered that a woman was that agent, btw? Consider this: women are much more ‘invisible’ than men, especially if they’re plain, not madeup, not wearing stylish clothes, dumpy. People will talk in front of some women as if they were invisible – which, socially, they are, sometimes. Consider your office receptionist. Or the secretary. Pieces of office furniture, for some, including other women. I know of many women who have gone in and out of some surprising places w/out notice, where a man could not. Maybe some of them were even me.

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    Astrology — nice comparison, Eric. I’m amazed to read “fact” after “fact” recited as if nobody could question them, when so many of them have been disproven or called into question by more credible sources. Who are you going to believe when asking when the bin Laden family left the states, a partisan hack trying to smear George Bush in an election year, or actual flight records? Of course, records can be forged, and scores of witness bribed or planted, but I’m still trying to figure out what makes the single witness who claims they flew out while the flight embargo was still in effect is more credible. There’s no good reason, other than believing the minority report makes the theory sound good.

    Except it’s still not a theory. It’s still an anti-theory, existing entirely in the form of questions about the status quo. Still nobody is putting out an affirmative theory. I’d flunk these guys out of speech class in seconds.

    Parliamentary debate: You’re the PM, make your case.

    Pick another form of debate, make the affirmative case. Save your questions for cross-examination.

    P.S. Don’t post raw URLs again, or I’ll delete the whole comment. They screw up the formatting of the page, Firefox or not.

  • Nancy

    One more bit that should be self-evident: in all the agencies, some people are chosen because they look like Men In Black (or Women In Black); but the best operatives look like your average plain jane, or that little geek who lives next door. The BTK guy would have been a decent one, perhaps, at least as far as looks were concerned: totally forgettable. Also no conscience, so probably a very good one, if he hadn’t been prone to murder on his own w/out orders. A loose cannon. No – no good after all.

  • irishdrifter

    “Don’t allow your dislike for the Bush administration to lead you into the land of the loonies”

    Eric you must have a PHD in loony if you believe that a dead ex-mujahideen fighter and nineteen suicidal muslim terrorists, who are still alive, managed to convert the two biggest buildings in the world into a pile of dust using kerosene from airplanes.

    “Hey, they just put all the Controlled Demolition Companies out of business.”

    You take a couple of thousand liters of kerosene, which only ignites under pressure in exactly the correct air/fuel mix. Sprinkle liberally on the 80th floor of the building – and watch the baby collapse in its own foot print – in say about an one hour.

    Who exactly are the Loonies, Eric?
    I would say it’s the sheeple who take their cues from CNN and Faux News who are the “Loonies”.

    Eric WTC7 !! ??

  • gracefulboomer

    The Mideast newspapers, published this type of conspiratorial crap- complete with their own ‘experts’ after 9/11.
    Most of it centered on the principle that Arabs were actually too stupid to have carried out an attack of this magnitude- so the attacks would have had to have been carried out by a powerful government or governmental agency who wanted Islam to ‘look bad’
    I am not saying Arabs are stupid, I am relaying the excuse given for why Arabs could not have committed this attack
    Within days, the conspiracy theories grew bolder, more exacting and combined elements of the Mossad, CIA, WTO, the Freemasons, remote controlled airplanes, explosive charges, dancing Jews (concurrent with western media coverage of dancing Arabs in the P.A. and mideast capital cities- which were pulled from our TV screens at the behest of the State Dept.)
    It made sense that the strange twisted logic IslamoFascist regimes employ would feed this line to their citizens, newspapers sales soared and Islamic call in shows became ever more frantic with ‘one-up-man-ship’- stories of drugged pious Islamics used by the Great Evil against their will, callers reporting that a 9/11 suicide bomber was actually sitting at the dinner table unable though to come to the phone, affirming proof that the destruction of the WTC’s were a sign on earth of Islamic superiority.
    It must be really engaging for the Islamics who have funded the hate that allowed and encouraged 19 suicide bombers and the organizations behind them to dip into a bag of Osama chips (complete with his smiling face on the bag) pick up a newspaper, and sip a little tea.
    The western alternative press is really just way behind…. :)
    Certainly, not the first time BTW, that the looney tune press of the MidEast makes its way here to ours.

    Last month, The National Institute of Standards and Technology released a $16 million dollar federal investigation into the World Trade Center disaster of 9/11.
    Engineering News Record has covered every aspect of the investigation in interim reports, along with the other trades.
    There have been sound science well documented re-enactments of exactly how the Centers fell.
    The report is nearly 10,000 pages and has undergone extensive peer to peer review.
    Not one licensed – repeat licensed- mechanical, structural, civil, electrical engineer has ever disputed the ongoing or interim reports, much less the final draft report.

    Of course, the fact that not one person remotely qualified has disputed the report – in any stage- will mean zip shit to those who feel conspiracy trumps physics, logic, math, and science.

  • hdhntr

    “will mean zip shit to those who feel conspiracy trumps physics, logic, math, and science.”

    Time for any free falling object to hit the ground from the height of the north tower. 9.2 seconds, in a complete vacuum with zero resistence, including air.

    North Tower collapse. actually 8-9 seconds, give or take a second, since the final ascent fell into the dusk cloud, and a slight approximation therefore is made.

    Boom. Down goes the official story.

    physics, logic, math, and science.

    Hardly something which the FEMA and the NIST people made use of, in formulating their hairbrained structural failure, pancake collapse hypothesis, which is itself nothing but a hypothesis.

    See, the building was made of steel, from the bottom up. Strong steel, welded together at the joints, bolted together. Any sort of structural failure would involve powerful forces of resistence, even for an accelerated collapse.

    Thought experiment.

    Large Safe, or Grand Piano, or any object, suspended from a point at the very height of the north tower.

    North Tower, pre collapse, firefighters reporting only small pockets of fire that they were just prepating to deal with.

    Drop them both…

    If anything, the north tower hit the ground first, at about 8.5 seconds, 9 max.

    Need any more be said?

    Note also the complete lack of a response to the Janitor’s eyewitness report, or Stanley Hilton’s testimony about the 911 War Games. Nothing…

    Looks like Hitler was right.

    “In this they proceeded on the sound principle that the magnitude of a lie always contains a certain factor of credibility, since the great masses of the people in the very bottom of their hearts tend to be corrupted rather than consciously and purposely evil, and that, therefore, in view of the primitive simplicity of their minds they more easily fall a victim to a big lie than to a little one, since they themselves lie in little things, but would be ashamed of lies that were too big. Such a falsehood will never enter their heads and they will not be able to believe in the possibility of such monstrous effrontery and infamous misrepresentation in others; yes, even when enlightened on the subject, they will long doubt and waver, and continue to accept at least one of these causes as true. Therefore, something of even the most insolent lie will always remain and stick – a fact which all the great lie-virtuosi and lying-clubs in this world know only too well and also make the most treacherous use of.”
    Adolf Hitler, on, “the Big Lie”
    “Mein Kampf”

  • splat

    Well Said htntr :)
    Now just a note off the subject. But how many people knew that there were large groups of Nazis’s to include their families in the US before and during the war. Oh! yes they even built summer retreats there to go on vacation. I will find the information and post it when i find it again. Also most people don’t know that Hilter couldn’t even have started the war in the begining if it had not been for general motors (Hun Generals Motors) giving Hilter the first 1000 trucks. Yes that’s right the frist 1000 trucks to transport his troops. Henery Ford personnaly went to Germany and showed Hilter (personally) how to set up an assemblely line to manufacture his vehicles. And I don’t remember the oil companies name but they were suppling Hilter’s Army with the oil and fuel he needed. So this is not the first time that people or the Govt has covered something up. Its even more disturbing that they were spraying flu virus over US cities in the 60’s under the cover of research.
    So you you think that the Govt is going to stop there? I don’t thing so. Bush even sated so himself when asked by a reporter, could or would the US run better if controled by Dictator? And Bush Replied “Yes if I was the dictator”.

    I honestly believe that the US is moving into a new era. The era of a Presidental Dictatorship. And believe this or not. But if they get away with this then there is nothing, there isn’t anyone or anything that will stop them or bring them to justice. And all those that don’t believe this, then you can continue not believing what is happening around you up until the time that black van pulls up to your car or your house and they pick you up. Am I paranoid? No. If they can cause 9/11 to happend and get away with it then anything is possible.

  • splat

    Also just a small comment: Do we really have to used the word “Fucking” in our conversations when we converse or communicate with another even if mistakes are being made?

  • irishdrifter

    Why were NO Arabs listed on any of the Flight Manifests.

    Why is there NO airport footage of the 19 Arabs?

    7 of the 19 Arabs named are alive and well.

    How did they get guns knives and mace and bombs on board the planes?

    Why does the Bureau of Transport Statistics show that TWO of the Flights in question did not even take place that day?

    Why are both alleged UA planes still registered at the FAA as valid?

    Why did the FBI remove all film from buildings surrounding the Pentagon within minutes of the “event”?

    Why was there no plane wreckage at the Pentagon?

    Can a 767-200 fit throught an 18ft hole?

    Why is there no wreckage at Shanksville?

    Who TRADED the PUT OPTIONS? (clue Israel)

    Why did Larry Silverstein say “we decided to pull the building”?

    How long does it take to rig a 47 storey building for a controlled demolition?

    Why did the SS not whisk W off from his photo op? How did they KNOW it was safe for him to sit there reading my little goat?

    How and why did the crew use cell-phones to call total strangers, except one who called his mom and said “Hi mom, it’s me your son Mark Bingham”??

    How did un-trained un-skilled pilots navigate and fly 4x 767-200’s without navigational assistance etc to precisely find their targets?

    Why did the US airforce stand down?

    Why did the “terrorists” skim past a coulpe of Nuke power plants?

    Why was FEMA in NY on the 10th?

    Why did Rummy say a missile hit the Pentagon?

    Why did WTC1 &2 explode from the top down leaving nothing but a pile of dust?

    Why was there molten steel in the basement 2 months after the attack?

    OK. Enough questions, theres a lot more.

    Listen because ARSEHOLE Bush says it’s a conspiracy theory YOU believe it’s a conspiracy theory??

    This is not a CONSPIRACY THEORY!!

    This is CONSPIRACY FACT!!

    The American Military Complex/Israel carried out the attacks on 911 and are entirely responsible for the carnage that is taking place in IRAQ.

    America is going to pay dearly for this.

    Welcome to the EURO !!

  • irishdrifter

    Has the Bush administration drastically understated the U.S. military death count by redefining “death”? The following article suggests that it has, and it calls for a nationwide campaign to honor deceased service members by naming and counting them.
    According to the article: “…DoD lists currently being very quietly circulated indicate almost 9,000 [U.S. military] dead”; this far exceeds the “official” death count of 1,831. How can this be? It’s largely because “U.S. Military Personnel who died in German hospitals or en route to German hospitals have not previously been counted.”

    In other words, “death” has been redefined.

    WHAT YOU CAN DO RIGHT NOW:

    1. If you know (or know of) service members who’ve died in Bush wars, look for their names on the full, alphabetized “official” Pentagon death list IF THEIR NAMES ARE NOT INCLUDED, PLEASE SEND A REPORT TO HERE”> You’re also encouraged to notify your Congress members, your local newspaper, and other interested parties.

    LIES BRED IN DECEIPT IS MY POINT HERE!!
    But of course Americans wont do this, because they would think it’s anti-semitic or a conspiracy theory to do such a thing!

  • Nancy

    About halfway thru the 1st Smirk term of office, I got the impression that what his admin. is moving towards is actual takeover. He’s already set the stage w/all the massive homeland security networks, so-called Patriot Act, and experimental holding of individuals w/out charges. When he’s ready, all it will take is another staged major emergency, declaration of suspension of elections & “temporary” martial law (which of course just never stands down), which of course an awful lot of brainless people who are scared, ambitious, or just plain stupid, would approve, like lemmings – especially some (most certainly not all) Republicans, who would be delighted to have an excuse to keep ‘their side’ in power, even if it meant completely trashing the constitution. I hope I’m wrong & the Republican middle will resist, but I won’t be surprised if it does happen. Bush has already made three remarks to date pertaining to how much easier things would be for him as President if this were a dictatorship, plus a couple more casual remarks dropped like the one cited by Splat, above.

    I will be the first to acknowledge that the senate & congress of both parties were so busy running for cover, and so afraid to take action on their own after 9/11, that like the spineless chickenshits they are, they willingly handed over, en masse, a blank slate for Bush to do as he pleased. Talk about playing into his hands. I was utterly enraged by such gross abdication of responsibility & blatant display of cowardice. To declare war was THEIR prerogative, not Bush’s, and they handed it over meekly and gladly. That was the day I started to really loathe & hate all politicians, regardless.

    This would seem to have gotten away from the subject a bit, but not really, since it pertains to 9/11 as IMO a setup for a coming power coup by Bush & the NeoCons, whether or not he was involved in the original 9/11.

  • irishdrifter

    Ft Bragg

    Bush said:
    “The troops here and across the world are fighting a global war on terror. The war reached our shores on September 11, 2001.”

    Later…

    Bush said:
    “Iraq is the latest battlefield in this war. … The commander in charge of coalition operations in Iraq, who is also senior commander at this base, General John Vines, put it well the other day. He said, “We either deal with terrorism and this extremism abroad, or we deal with it when it comes to us.”

    C’mon folks use your brains here. Get shot of that moron in the Charnel House, and retake your country. If you don’t do it now, America will descend into a bloody revolution.

  • Eric Olsen

    loon

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    Moonbats unite! 90 more comments to reach #4 top commented post… the most commented post of the year!

  • NJT

    Regarding popular mechanics:
    The article gives no mention of the put options on the targeted airlines, warnings received by government and corporate officials, or obstruction of justice by a much larger group. Instead it attacks 16 claims of its choosing (straw men), which it asserts are the “most prevalent” among “conspiracy theorists.”

    Regarding Occam’s razor:
    I’m thinking that Occam’s razor, prior to a certain point of knowledge, maybe 1400AD, would have told citizens that the world is flat. And it may have told audience members of the 1900’s that Houdini really was a magician performing magic, not an artist. To those without access to scientific knowledge, these are the most simple explanations; until we learn more information, Occam’s razor can be wrong.
    More information, in the case of 911, such as the janitor’s (William Rodriguez and others) reports of explosions in the basement. Such as the testimony of experts in structural demolitions and the dynamics of steel frames. Such as the apparent cover-up by the government.

    No, I don’t know who did it.
    No, I don’t know why.
    But that ignorance does not lend any more credibility to the “official” conspiracy theory that the bad man in the cave sent 19 invisible hijackers, about whom the FBI knew everything 24 hours after the attack, but not a thing beforehand.
    But I can tell by the tone of people who pop in and say “oh yes, the fire definitely caused the steel to collapse” without any concept of how steel frames behave dynamically; believing that the connections were both strong enough to rip down the exoskeleton and internal core in an apparent implosion, but at the same time weak enough as to suffer a progressive collapse of each floor.

    With an accurately constructed scale model, I don’t think it can be recreated, even going way beyond the assumptions; smashing more of it away and heating it hotter than the fuel could have.
    But now I’m convinced that not even an accurate scale model demonstration would convince these folks. If the failure mode could be demonstrated, I would be convinced.
    And to the janitor who believes the bombs went off in the basement, Occam’s razor is telling him the same thing it’s telling me. We don’t need to know who or why, to know this should have been investigated much more thoroughly than it was. And the fact that it wasn’t is disturbing and leads to the types of questions and issues Morgan Reynolds has put forth.

    -(why stop at 2, go for #1 Bambanek =)

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    More questions? Occam’s Razor, folks! Stop the questions, put out your own alternative theory and see if we have any questions about it.

    Why were NO Arabs listed on any of the Flight Manifests.

    Irrelevant, but also completely untrue. We happen to know the names of the hijackers, or the names they used, because of the flight manifests, but we also have passenger testimony, surveillance footage, and other evidence.

    Why is there NO airport footage of the 19 Arabs?

    Completely untrue.

    7 of the 19 Arabs named are alive and well.

    Ludicrous. If this were true, it would be trivially easy to produce a videotape demonstrating that they are alive, but no such video has surfaced. They are dead. Alternatively, the hijackers stole their identities, but again, since there is no credible claim to the contrary, it seem the hijackers probably used their real identities.

    How did they get guns knives and mace and bombs on board the planes?

    Irrelevant and specious. Prior to 9/11, it was relatively common for people to carry knives and mace in their carry-on items, and guns got through with alarming regularity. Even post-9/11, such weapons make it onto planes occasionally.

    But nobody here has suggested that they smuggled any such things onto planes. They used box-cutter knives (razor blades with handles) and claimed to have a bomb on the plane, but there is no evidence that this was true.

    Why does the Bureau of Transport Statistics show that TWO of the Flights in question did not even take place that day?

    Irrelevant. You may have noticed that on that day and for many days following, all flight records were in complete chaos. Something about four planes having been hijacked. In fact, flights AA11 and AA77 did take place that day, were scheduled to take place that day, and were loaded up with passengers, as their family members will testify.

    Why are both alleged UA planes still registered at the FAA as valid?

    Irrelevant. AA is obviously more efficient than UA in reporting what seems perfectly obvious to anyone on earth on 9/11, and it took AA four months to get around to ensuring the FAA records were updated. UA can be forgiven for not rushing to file paperwork.

    Why did the FBI remove all film from buildings surrounding the Pentagon within minutes of the “event”?

    They searched for any record of what happened, and in the end found only one, which was released. It is both standard procedure and perfectly obviously logical to try to compile all available records of an event when investigating that event.

    Why was there no plane wreckage at the Pentagon?

    Utter nonsense.

    Can a 767-200 fit throught an 18ft hole?

    Absolutely. Or rather, the hole was 75 feet wide. (The smaller hole was caused by the landing gear separately.) One wing was sheared off when it hit the ground and tumbled in after the plane, which is why the 125-foot wide plane caused a 75-foot wide hole.

    Why is there no wreckage at Shanksville?

    There was an appropriate amount of wreckage, strewn widely, according to the folks who investigate crashe sites regularly. Some other conspiracy claims actually focus on the location of the wreckage, since one engine ended up a few hundred yards away after shearing off the wing.

    Who TRADED the PUT OPTIONS? (clue Israel)

    Ludicrous. Clearly the people who benefitted stock-wise were those who planned the attacks, but there is no evidence to suggest Israel was involved in any way. Given that the stated goal of OBL is to destroy the economy of the U.S., while Israel greatly benefits from our largesse, it makes far more sense to think OBL or his fellow travelers were trading on the airlines than Israel.

    Why did Larry Silverstein say “we decided to pull the building”?

    The actual quote is “I remember getting a call from the fire department commander telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, ‘We’ve had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.'” Mr. Silverstein was on the other end of a phone hearing about raging fire and devastating damage to WTC7, and speculated aloud that perhaps it should be knocked down. It does not necessarily follow that the building was in fact knocked down.

    For that matter, even if the building had been knocked down, it would have been in response to so much damage the building wasn’t worth saving. The difference would have been… nothing.

    But in any case, Silverstein’s statement is that of a non-expert business owner, and nothing more. The building was not knocked down.

    How long does it take to rig a 47 storey building for a controlled demolition?

    Irrelevant.

    Why did the SS not whisk W off from his photo op? How did they KNOW it was safe for him to sit there reading my little goat?

    They had no idea what the safest place for the POTUS might be, but with planes converging on the capitol, Florida was probably as safe as any other place. The SS might have been scrambling to determine where to send him, or they might have been ordered to back off by staff members determined not to let Bush look like a scaredy-cat, or any one of a number of explanations. I know that when I first heard about the second plane hitting and realized it wasn’t an accident, I can’t remember what I did for the next 20 minutes, easy, and Senator Kerry famously stated that the group of people he was with couldn’t move or think for an hour. Nine minutes is not much time.

    How and why did the crew use cell-phones to call total strangers, except one who called his mom and said “Hi mom, it’s me your son Mark Bingham”??

    Irrelevant, unless you’re claiming that the calls are all phony. The next time your plane is hijacked, let’s see how clearly you think at first, m’kay? In fact, most passengers called family and close friends, because those were the numbers they had memorized. Others dialed at random in a panic, unable to remember any useful phone numbers. I suspect Mark Bingham dialed the only person he could think of that would be at home and whose number he remembered, and like many American men, he didn’t speak with her often.

    How did un-trained un-skilled pilots navigate and fly 4x 767-200’s without navigational assistance etc to precisely find their targets?

    Untrained? Remember the flight schools? Ever played Flight Simulator? Take-off and landing are the hard part, flying into tall easily-identifiable buildings is easy.

    Why did the US airforce stand down?

    The US air force followed standard procedure, but were notified late in the process.

    Why did the “terrorists” skim past a coulpe of Nuke power plants?

    Because OBL’s stated goal was and is to destroy the economy of the United States. Hence the attack on the WTC in 1993, etc.

    Why was FEMA in NY on the 10th?

    Apparently for a drill.

    Why did Rummy say a missile hit the Pentagon?

    He misspoke. It happens.

    Why did WTC1 &2 explode from the top down leaving nothing but a pile of dust?

    This is simply untrue. It didn’t “explode” after the initial impact and fireball. It left far more than a pile of dust; it left several stories of twisted steel and concrete and debris that took months to clear out. From the street level only a bit of it was visible, though, because there were several levels of basement.

    Why was there molten steel in the basement 2 months after the attack?

    There wasn’t.

    OK. Enough questions, theres a lot more.

    All questions, no answers. I’ve answered your questions in details, and now I’m waiting for a cohesive story from you.

    While you’re thinking, check out this site which supports your demolution theory but rejects nearly everything else you’ve all been saying.

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    And yes, I cheated in order to get so many URLs into one post. Sorry.

  • irishdrifter

    I’ll leave you with :

    You got the moron president you all deserve.

    Ya’ll can’t see past the nose on your faces.

    Get a life – get a passport! Get out of that shithole you call the USA.

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    That’s all? That’s what I get? I provide straightforward answers to your long list, and all I get is an instruction to get a passport?

    As it happens, I have a passport. I used to live in another country, have visited Canada, Mexico, and Britain multiple times each, and am planning another trip to England next year. My wife is from another country, too. Your point is?

    I bet I’m more likely to get an answer to this post than the one on which I spent so much time.

  • NJT

    Phillip Winn’s Great-grandfather (PWGGF): “Ockham’s razor, NJT’s great-grandfather! If you can’t tell me how Houdini did it, then you must admit it is magic!”

    NJT’s great-grandfather (NJTGGF): “I don’t know how he did it, but I’m pretty sure magic doesn’t exist.”

    PWGGF: “Well if you can’t put forth an appropriate theory, then you’ve got to admit it is magic. Ockham’s razor demands it! Most simple explanation is that magic exists and he is a real magician.”

    NJTGGF: “well he obviously has some way to do it, but I’m pretty sure it’s not magic.”

    PWGGF: “Ockham’s razor, boy; Houdini is a magician and I know it!”

  • Nancy

    What if occam’s razor is wrong? It’s never been absolutely proven.

  • NJT

    Phillip –
    would you be so kind as to Occam’s razor this page?

    Given the left picture, I would expect one of two scenarios;
    1) the top chunk collapses at the bottom while crushing the segment below and causing the segment below to collapse at a similar rate as the top chunk.
    2) the top chunk remains intact while crushing the bottom segment all the way to the ground, at which point the top chunk either collapses itself, or remains partially intact as a crushed steel frame

    Given the picture on the right, (the top chunk collapses from the bottom up while the lower segment remains intact. After the top chunk is completely collapsed and shrouded in dust (a lot of weight that has now been removed from that top chunk!), the bottom segment begins to collapse)

    Using Occam’s razor on this, I come to the conclusion that the simplest explanation is internally placed charges. Anything else seems to defy physics and a basic understanding of mehanics, no?

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    This shithole you call the US seems to be having people running, swimming, and being shipping into the US by the container full.

    People will sell themselves into slavery to get to the US.

    If we are such a shithole, people seem awfully anxious to start rolling around in it.

  • Nancy

    I have to say, I’m awfully attached to this shithole, myself. Not terribly in love w/those running it, necessarily, but I think it’s still better than anyplace else.

    Well…maybe not Tahiti….

  • gracefulboomer

    Sure, there are only thousands of certified International Association of Bomb Technicians and Investigators
    none of whom have stepped up with a signature on any of this bull, guess they are all part of this
    ‘conspiracy’?

    Of note to the epistemic Americans who think everything that happens only matters if it occurs here-
    Did the U.S. also carry out the Bali Bombings? Jakarta? Turkey? Morocco? Madrid? Kenya?
    Did the U.S. also slaughter the children in Beslan? Moscow theatre? Casablanca? Philippines?
    Weren’t two Russian commercial airplanes blown out of the sky by female Islamic suicide bombers?
    There are more- so numerous now that it is hard to keep track.
    Geez.. it is so world wide that no one even keeps account of the merely maimed and injured.
    Why would the attacks continue after the Bushies got the ‘war he wanted’?
    Are you suggesting a world wide conspiracy?
    A League of Nations, if you will, of governments intent on blowing up their own people?
    Or some mega mythical omnipotent Amerika wrecking havoc world wide?
    Sorry, will reserve my anger for the people who really deserve it, who celebrate innocent loss of life,
    film it as training propaganda for other looney tunes, write top ten tunes glorifying Jihad,
    and go to sleep tucked in with the 15th revised deluxe leather bound Arabic copy of
    Mein Kempf.

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    Occam’s Razor isn’t “proven” or “disproven,” nor does the ridiculous Houdini example reveal anything other than a gross misunderstanding of how Occam’s Razor works.

    I’ve put a lot of time into answering long lists of questions, and I’ve outlined what most people accept is a very reasonable theory that fits the facts. All I’m asking is that someone, *anyone* do the same for the controlled demolition theory.

    *NOT* asking more questions. There are questions about everything in life.

    *NOT* produce more pictures and ask laymen to extrapolate from them. I’m a photographer, I know how deceptive photos can be, even un-manipulated.

    JUST SPELL OUT A THEORY. That’s all. It shouldn’t be hard.

    I suggest a who (Islamic terrorists), a what (hijacked planes, flew them into buildings), a when (first attempt to destroy WTC in 1993, successful attempt, 9/11/01), a where (NYC, Wash. D.C., and PA), and a why (cripple the U.S. economy, demonstrate strength to Islamic fundamentalists), and I think that the how works, in that fully-laden planes flown into the buildings could do what it appears to have done.

    IT’S YOUR TURN: WHO, WHAT, WHEN, WHERE, and WHY.

    Spell it out, make it make sense. That’s all. It’s not hard.

    Put up or shut up.

  • splat

    Listen up and I am only going to say this one time. This is to everyone. No I am not in charge of this blog nor do I believe that I am king crap or that I know everything. First everyone needs to calm down, and think rationally. What do I mean by this? Well lets see if this comes out right. First when we start breathing wrong because of what someone has said that we didn’t agree with, then we start saying things that we know we shouldn’t say. No this is not censorship nor am I trying to. People are here to discuss and get things off there chest. To let others know what they think. But if you start breathing harder and start to get more angry then what you are already you get the butt and leave and that’s something those people that made this mess (9/11) are counting on. THE PEOPLE BEING DIVIDED. So no one sticks together. It easier to make one person shut his or her mouth or get rid of them then it is to do a whole group. But guess what folks? The clock is ticking and when George (can I call him by his first name ) gets his Patriot Act 2 bill signed and passed, it will be permanent this time. You won’t have even this pleasure of discussing things on the net, in your home, in your car, at work and probably not even deep in the woods with out fear of them knocking on your door and NOT in the middle of the night but in the daytime because then it will be legal. Need a court order HEY you better read the Patriot Act because then won’t have to have one. Oh you think that because you live in another country that is going to save you lol DON’T MAKE ME LAUGH. Why would he care about one person lol again don’t make me laugh.
    Congress LOL They don’t even read the bills they sign. That came straight from one of their mouths. They are all in the group and as long as they can make a show without really doing something then they won’t. Some will or might try and I mean a very few will, but try they will and they will be silenced one way or another. I used to think that C. Powell was something but hes in the group also. So I don’t think much of him either.

    There are too many people in this cover up and yes I say cover up. I believe that the people that said something against 9/11 will disappear slowly, maybe not now but they will. Either a car will accidentally run over them or they will commit suicide or the report will say that some made man ran into the police station and in the middle of 20 or 30 policemen shot and killed that person. Hun! Yep just like jack Ruby walked right in among all the policemen and shot Harvey. Or maybe like that woman I read about that died and they found her burning in her car dead, NO! the car was sill on, it wasn’t burning just her. SO don’t think that it can’t or won’t happened to you. I was going to say that they can’t kill thousands of people to shut them up but then I though Hell they did already kill thousands and they’re getting away with it.

  • splat

    Hey Phillip Winn you sound like a lawyer are you?

  • splat

    John B.
    I can’t prove this but the mayor can. What would happend if the explosives are all ready there. What I mean is this. Those large skyscrapers are so tall that if a real major fire were to start the fire dept could not put it out if it was on the 90th floor. I don’t think that they could build the water pressure up that much. But lets say they could. But this one time they didn’t. and the fire burned out of control. Now with the high winds up that high it would fuel the flames and maybe just maybe catch another building on fire and again just maybe it might start a chain reaction.

    Now me I wouldn’t want that to happen so I would have to come up with a plan or there was already a plan that had already been made. How you you stop a fire that is out of control or you believe it is out of control? Now we’re not talking about a normal fire of lets say 10 to 15 stories. But 70 100 150 stories(Floors). The fastest way to get it down and under control if the fire sprinkler system didn’t work would be to have preset explosives in certain locations to maybe Pull the plug like bring the building down. Now what I stated here is only speculation on my part. I do not know for sure but someone does and that person that knows would not tell you for fear of repriasals from the public if it ever got out. Just like if lets say 50 percent of the public were to find out who did all the planing the carring out and all on 9/11 those people and their families would all be in grave danger to include everyone that was assocatited with them. The police could not nor would most of them I believe stop the public from doing anything it wanted. It would be like feeding a bunch a hungry ants. You can get a lot of them but they’ll get you in the end.

  • splat

    Note: My apologies for the grammar and the spelling mistakes, and the sentence structure.

  • splat

    graceful and Phillip
    Nice statement: But guess what I have met a lot of people like you. Just like you. I was in a Military court one time as an observer. The person on trial was there for sexually abusing a 11year old child. This person claimed outside of court that he didn’t do anything wrong that he didn’t touch her. Because this person had some rank and he was a well known nice guy to include myself we could not believe what they were saying about this person was true. Also if we heard anyone say anything negative about this person then we give that person a hard time. Well in court this person admitted that he slipped his hand into the little girls panties and yes his fingers and or finger went inside her.
    ALso a couple of other things I will not go into here. But because this girl knew what the word vagina meant and where babies came from, the court decided that this person charges would be dropped. This person had the Gaul to leave the courthouse and remark see I told you nothing would happened. I WAS THERE. Now if I had told someone they would not have believed me either and would of told me to prove it of shut up as you just did to all the people on this blog. I nice to see people like you and hear from you.

    No I am not saying that you are a bad or mean spirited person but like I have said time and time before If I put the truth in your hands you still would not believe. One thing is for sure and two is for certain I saw pictures from the second plane before it hit the second tower the day it happened to include myself recording it live off of TV and that object under the body of that plane in not part of the original plane. I doesn’t matter if you believe it or not because there will always be those that won’t believe anything put before them.

  • splat

    Comment 555 posted by irishdrifter on July 1, 2005 01:30 PM:

    I’ll leave you with :

    You got the moron president you all deserve.

    Ya’ll can’t see past the nose on your faces.

    Get a life – get a passport! Get out of that shithole you call the USA.

    Hey Irish where you from?

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    Splat, it doesn’t matter what you believe, because there will always be people who believe anything put before them — see how silly your statement sounds when reversed?

    I’m not asking you to “prove” anything, I’m asking if you have a theory. You have a theory about a perverty, and that’s fine. What’s your theory about this?

    Let’s hear it. 569 comments, and all I’ve heard so far is that The Jews are responsible. Can you do better than that? What’s your theory?

  • brian

    philip Winn:
    ‘A few months after 9/11 I ask a fire chief what he thought of the explanation of how the towers came down. He isn’t an expert, but he said he would rather be in a large wooden beamed building then a steel one during a fire’

    no, its true. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm

  • splat

    Comment 570 posted by Phillip Winn on July 2, 2005 01:26 AM
    Splat, it doesn’t matter what you believe, because there will always be people who believe anything put before them — see how silly your statement sounds when reversed?

    But Phillip that is the point. Most people will believe what their govt tells them and if they start to doubt it then they have to do something that will further convince them, even with the information out that disproves what really went on. It comes down to apathy. What doesn’t directly affects them personally at that moment. They see it on TV or on the news, then they turn the TV off or put the paper down and thats the end of it. There’s a lot of misinformation out there and it’s hard to distinguish sometimes between the truth and whats not. But when you listen to someone or to a group of people and you keep hearing inconsistent statements over and over again then somethings wrong.
    If I had enough people working for me and I wanted to make something happen, then someone questioned it, I could manipulate the truth as I wanted it to be known. But when you have the Internet out there and all the original reports out there. There are so many sources from a lot of different places, then its harder to control it.

    My theory. I don’t have the time to write it here. Beside it would just be added to the rest of them. But one thing is for sure who even masterminded this had a lot of help some willing and some unknowing,

  • splat

    Irishdrifter what country are you from.

    You called the USA a shithole.
    Is it because they kicked you out or what?

    What do you base you idea’s on that you think that America is a shithole. What right do you have and who gave you that right to call the U.S. a shithole or anyother country for that matters?

  • irishdrifter

    Well I was going to bow gracefully out of this conversation because the opposition had resorted to puerile name calling and saying that genuine research carried out by thousands of people for almost 4 years is “irrelevant”. Its as much irrelevant as the tissue of lies spun to you by the morons in the FBI.

    Ireland Splat!!

    Today Offering

  • irishdrifter

    Sorry if you take offence about my comments.

    America is not signed up to the World Court.

    America is not signed up to Kyoto

    America is not a nuclear non-proliferation
    signatory.

    America has hundreds of millions of gallons of Chemical Weapons such as VX.

    America has thousands of Nuclear Warheads.

    America has nuclear weapons in 22 countries worldwide.

    America has Military Bases in 80 countries.

    America has opened an Internment Camp where they torture 14 year old Afghan boys, because their name is Osama.

    The Patriot Act. They hate your freedoms my ass. You cant even read a book without the FBI knowing about it!!

    You no doubt read about the two 16 year old girls from Brooklyn who were locked up recently as suicide bombers.

    Phillipines, Spain, Korea, Japan, Nagasaki, Hiroshima, Jugoslavia, Vietnam, Honduras, Colombia, Nicaragua,
    Iraq ii, Iraq ii, Somalia yadda yadda.

    Maine, Kenneddy, Northwoods, Bay of Pigs, Tonkin Bay, Okie, yadda.

    The Press and the Media and Hollywood is owned entirely by Jews and Zionists.

    Thats why you think 911 was comitted by a bunch of fanatical muslims.

    The Americans appear to be living in what the indiginous Austrlaians refer to as “Dream Time”. They think they are god’s gift to the planet, they are in fact, most probably, the destroyers of the planet.

  • http://paperfrigate.blogspot.com DrPat

    Obviously, John (and Eric and Phillip), if you post loonie-bait, you’re gonna get loonies. To judge by the fact that this is comment five-seventy-ump, there are a LOT of loonies out there!

    [just to add my name to the list of official loonies…]

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    Irishdrifter, Jews and Zionists working together? Wow. The horrors. I thought you were leaving?

  • splat

    What part of Ireland or Northern Ireland Irishdrifter.

    I don’t believe Muslims did the 9/11 irish.
    2. I took offense of you calling America a Shit hole.

    3. The world court. Hmmm
    I have been here in Europe now almost 20 years Irish thats right 20 years. In that time I have seen on the news how murders here in Europe got 3 to 4 years for their crime. I see them leave babies in the cars all the time on a hot day. When I confront them with it how dangerous it is to leave a newborn in the car. The first thing they stay is Oh! Nothing happened. Yea right. How long does it take a baby to fry in a hot car? Yea that’s right a closed hot car. The people here will let a baby cry in a car and walk right past , BUT when an animal is in the car they want to get angry about it.

    Now you say your from Ireland, well you know all the terrorist they have there calling them freedoms fighters, you know the ones, the ones that put bombs in restaurants and pubs and other places that children also hang out. The point is this. I hear and have seen a lot while I have been here in Europe about Ireland and Northern Ireland, not good things either but never have I ever called Ireland a shit hole or any other name. Why because its terrorist that do these things and not the people.
    Hey! Irish listen to this one.
    You know that Ireland many years ago had a patois’s crop failure. Remember…

    Where did your people go to when Europe would not except nor could feed the people from Ireland. Yep thats right the USA.
    We welcome everybody with open arms.

    Hey I can call names and scream and jump up and down also BUT I am not going to do that.

    USA is 3 times as big as all Europe. Thats RIGHT ALL OF EUROPE. I keep hearing Europeans always complaining bout how the US is always doing things. I wonder why they want to be like the Americans then.
    Hell the German are always screaming how expensive everything is here. And it is too. But you know what? The Germans did it to themselves when they converted the German mark to the Euro it was at a rate of 1.95 DM or so to 1 EURO. Now instead of then just converting the prices from .49pf (DM) to about 25 cents they the Germans just switched the pf for the Euro sign and prices doubled everywhere. and of course to them 25 cents didn’t make any sense so they made the price 29 cents and then everyone caught on to that and everyones prices doubled and triplied.

    I don’t see the mass droves of people trying to get to Europe except those that want or hope to get to the USA one day.

    I try not to keep a list Irish. I know that there are things wrong but for everything you name wrong with the USA I can name 3 or 4 wrong with any country in Europe. We’re not here to discuss the wrongs of the USA or the World just 9/11 all those other topics should go to another blog.

    Don’t believe it? hear it is.
    http://www.englisch.schule.de/away/potato.htm
    http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/terrace/adw03/peel/ireland/famine.htm

    Hmmmm Its amazing how many countries try to do business with the US in there own country and then when business starts going real well they try to take the business away from the Americans. I can name you several countries.

    So Now the next time you want to criticize a Govt. that fine to include my Govt., but to call America a shit hole, when I know that YOU DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT AMERICA except what you read or see in the news.

    Now you speak of them holding 14 year olds. Now I know you do not know half of what your talking about.

    Yes maybe they are but I am willing to guess that those 14 years were not just walking down the street with their girlfriends on a Saturday after noon when they got picked up.

    Do yo know Irish what the average age of a soldier in Africa is? 12
    Do you not think that that child with kill you.
    I grant you that children should not have weapons period. But if you were my partner and a 14 year old just shot you in the back and killed you. Do you think that I would say OH! he’s just a child and send him back to his mother so he can kill someone else. Or if a small girl came at me or my partner with a grenade in her hands that I would hesitate? Yes there are a lot of those that will say I am a child murderer. But rest assured I am alive and not dead. Yes It would probably make me have a nervous breakdown after the fact but never less I would still do it.
    But that is not the topic here 9/11 is.

    And also there are those that will disagree with me to the point that they will start trying to attack me trough the computer. I has happened several times.

  • splat

    Hey Irish
    I have not resoted to name calling.

  • splat

    Hey Irish I understand where your coming from and I understand. But there is a lot that happends and the people in America cannot control it, If they really knew what was going on maybe. So I hope you do not take offense to what I have said for I did not direct it towards you personally nor did I intend to.

  • http://blogcritics.org/author.php?author=Cerulean Cerulean

    Those buildings going down resembled nothing so much as a controlled demolition. I don’t believe that the planes alone are responsible for the damage. I’m not sure that they have even recovered much in the way of a plane from the Pentagon. (Not sure about that last) I can think of a way that someone could have planted explosives on each floor of the WTC, but I’m not going to get into it. I’m not saying it was the Bush administration what done it, I would guess that terrorists were responsible. I know that there is a cover up of the other terrorist actitivities. That flight over Long Island years ago, boom. Stuff was seen. Then the flight over Queens not long after the 911, and I think another strange plane explosion in the NY area. A newspaper in Queens conducted it’s own public hearings to assemble eyewitness testimony because they were not satified with official investigation.

    Now it’s trains. There was just one derailed the other day in Alabama carrying hazardous materials. The uptake in train derailments, especially those with hazardous materials, is not an accident. Trains were fairly safe, had a hundred and fifty year history (plenty of time to work the bugs out), fixed paths and known schedules. Due to the decline is train use over the last century, there should be plenty of tracks available. I’ve been alive for a while now. The recent upsurge in train derailments is not an accident. I believe that it is terrorism.

    The East Coast black out, supposedly caused by a TREE, was not an accident. That one might have been terrorists, or could well have been domestic energy interests getting us ready for skyrocketing energy costs. Sounds familiar? Or you could believe the official explanation that it was a TREE. The rolling blackouts in California? I KNEW that they were artificially created immediately, to help consumers accept skyrocketing energy costs. Later, sure, enough, they were. I knew that for a sophisticated, first world nation with a very steady power supply to suddenly be reduced to third world conditions was deliberate. And I knew who did it, and why.

    The coverup of further terrorist acts could to be keep people from throwing out the Bush administration for incompetence, or it could be because of actual incompetence, or a combination of the two.

    You can watch the WTC come down like a house of cards and say, it’s just lucky, twice. I don’t believe it.

  • irishdrifter

    Dont take my word for it :

    Here’s the World Tribunal of Conscience’s verdict which wound up in Istanbul last week.

    Jury Statement
    Verdict

    Listen, I’ve nothing against Americans, just their criminal military/industrial complex and their criminal allies in the ME – make that ally. Singular.

    Cmon guys, you really didnt see this coming??

    It was sticking out like a sore thumb.

    Osama Bin Ladin, hahahahaha. You all got suckered big time. Think about it for one moment. If there was no such thing as Osama Bin Ladin he would have to have been invented for America for fulfill it’s Strausscon/PNAC world hegemony policies!! And thats exactly what happened. Kinda makes me wonder what Mary Shelley had in mind when she wrote Frankenstein.

    He isn’t even on the FBI’s MOST WANTED for having carried out the attacks on 911. He’s up there for the “Al-Qaida” [spelt M O S S A D] bombings in Kenya.

    Why has Bushco blocked ALL investigations into 911? Simple answer, coz he knows it will lead straight back to HIM.

  • irishdrifter

    Regarding the euphimistically entitled Irish Famine –

    I have already posted this Irish Holocaust

    And by the way, the only people to send assistance for fear of British reprisal was one of the Tribes of Nations. The original inhabitants of that place you call America.

  • http://blogcritics.org/author.php?author=Cerulean Cerulean

    I am not endorsing certain aspects of the theories here but as far as there not being skullduggery and conspiracies in America, I’ve seen plenty first hand. When I was still in high school, I was a political activist. When my mom came home one day there was a crew of guys on our roof (our yard was walled and locked, and on a cliff and had a dog in it). They claimed to be from the telephone company. They weren’t. After that our phone would go dead when we said something negative about Reagan, for example. There were mysterious clicks. Calls got disconnects. All my political friends’ phones were similar and were tapped. A friend who was particulary effective and particularly far to the left would have her car fooled with every time she went to a protest or action that she organized. It would not start or other things would happen. It was common knowledge, imparted by the older leftists among us, that US intelligence agencies had Agents Sabateurs and Agents Provocateurs among the progressive movement to undermine it. The Provocateurs were extremely radical and irrational and would distance the groups infested by them from public sympathy. There were two guys we believed to be Agents Sabatuers. One “lost” an important project I did among other things. Another would “forget” to call the media about our protests and be oh so sorry about that. Over a time we became extremely suspicious of the pattern of activities.

    One day my toothbrush tasted funny and I came down with Mononucleosis. At the same time, one of my political mates came down with Hepatitis. I wasn’t kissing anyone at that time. He wasn’t with anyone, and hepatitis was uncommon at that time. He had no risk factors. We were both really suspicious. Later I had the opportunity to ask an former CIA executive (Phillip Agee) who turned against the bureau if that was the CIA. He said, they did things like that and it probably was. He told me that at a public lecture in my town. Straight from the horse’s mouth.

    Not that long ago in the news an extremely moderate peace group was infiltrated by an undercover agent. I think it was in Sacramento or somewhere like that. When he was in the news (I think he died) they found out that their group member was an undercover policeman. This was the type of group that attracts elderly Unitarians and church people. In a town the undoubtably has actual criminal activity, this was where they put an undercover police agent.

    There has been an organized and concerted movement to discredit progressive ideals, and other things the government didn’t want known. Leftists and progressives have been tarred as “communists” and when many idealistic people were “communists” in the early and mid twentieth century, those were protrayed as monsters when they were not.

    The government uses disinformation, and other tactics to make people they don’t want believed look like nuts. Do you remember when they were caught putting LSD on Fidel Castro’s cigar to make him look crazy, and putting something in place to make his hair or beard fall out and make him look wierd? And trying to assassinate him, of course. They are experienced at doing this, and they do this in the instance of UFO’s. They’ve been very successful in portraying believers as lunatics. They regularly leaked stories about UFO’s to the National Enquirer, run by a right wing sympathizer. Why? To position them as lunatic fantasies. There is a long history of secretly discrediting certain theories and people for reasons. There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

    That having been said, I DO NOT support anti-semetic ravings. And I’m not necessarily saying that the Bush administration deliberately caused 911.

    So yes, I have seen the skullduggery first-hand. There are secrets, there are conspiracies, there are coverups.

  • HW Saxton

    Our Govt. isn’t above skullduggery to
    be sure but I do NOT think that is the
    case here. This is just strange,savage
    and bizzare enough to be quite real and
    just exactly what it was.A group of F’in
    terrorists with a sick plan that they
    somehow got away with after many years
    of planning.PERIOD.

    Speaking of Govt. Hi-Jinks: In San Diego
    back in the early 70’s a friend of mines
    older brother joined a Youth Socialist
    Alliance group. Their HQ was burglarized
    but was never vandalized as is the norm
    with break-ins. His personal mail went
    missing several times. Gerald Ford was
    coming to town and they were going to
    have a protest. Before it barely got to
    the planning stages they had started to
    recieve threatening phone calls from a
    supposedly disgruntled group of USMC
    VietNam vets about violence against them
    should it take place.The weird thing is
    only a handful of people (or less) knew
    about it at the time the phone calls had
    started. Obviously there was a snitch or
    a spy of some sort in the group or else
    their HQ on El Cajon Blvd. near the San
    Diego State College was being bugged.Or
    something. To cap things off on the day
    of the protest,the leader of this Youth
    Socialist Alliance Group was arrested on
    traffic warrants! But the warrants were
    for tickets that had been paid long ago.
    F’ed up coincidence? Maybe.But it sounds
    awful fishy just the same. Just had to
    get my two cents in here. This YSA group
    was hardly threatening at all. It was a
    bunch of pseudointellectual college kids
    that would sit around smoke pot and talk
    about Fidel Castro & the revolution, the
    rights(or lack of)migrant workers in So.
    Cal and other topical and largely local
    issues.Real threatening stuff ya know?
    So in conclusion the Govt isn’t above a
    bit of monkey business but the murder of
    thousands??? C’mon…And the Anti Semite
    tone that is popping up more and more in
    this neck of the woods is bullshit. You
    people spewing that crap need to check
    yo’selves.

  • splat

    Thanks Irish for the info

  • http://blogcritics.org/author.php?author=Cerulean Cerulean

    If it was just the terrorists I believe that they also used explosives in addition to the planes. Claiming that Jews are responsible, or that Bush operatives actually physically caused 911 sounds like a gov’t disinformation campaign to discredit more rational people who question the official version of 911. If there’s stuff they don’t want looked at, that’s how they do it.

  • irishdrifter

    You are welcome Splat!

    Another myth busted, eh?

  • splat

    It’s truly amazing how history has been twisted by those that will perpetrate a lie and then keep it going. Including the teaching of that lie to their people. But those people that have a slightest doubt will always look for the answers to their questions. They might not like the answers they find, but if they have any integrity they will accept what they find after they have done a little research and reach a mature decision.

  • irishdrifter

    “Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.”

    George Orwell

    Happy Independence Day – or is that Liberty Day or Freedom Day….?

    Just another day to wave your flag and your guns at people and feel good about it!

  • Splat

    I don’t own or have a gun. Nor would I wave it if I had one. :)

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    It’s remarkably clear by now that aside from irishdrifter trying to implicate Jewish people in some nefarious plot, nobody here has anything constructive to say. Nobody can answer my simple and direct requests. I was actually hoping that people would just stay away after this drifted off of the recently-commented list, but I guess not.

    So why don’t you guys go pick an injustice that, you know, actually exists? Rachel Carson might have been devious;ly plotting, or maybe she was just mistaken, but there is a nefarious plot to keep DDT suppressed, and that’s real. Spend some time on that!

  • Schubstro

    Phillip Winn, you just pick what is easy and already given, i.e., the offical story and try to cement something so inconsistent, i.e., the official story to discredit serious questions (all of which point to 911 being an inside job). Whether or not another alternative scenarios are presented here (I’m not a lawyer) still doesn’t get rid of the questions. Questions you claim have been debunked many many times. It seems to me you read that laughable Popular Mechanics issue where they tried to debunk the ‘conspiracy theories’. Did you know the ‘senior researcher’Benjamin Chertoff(25 long years old) of PM is a cousin of Michael Chertoff, the new head of DHS? Smells like mackarel to me….

    anyways, chew on this for a minute

    Simple Math demonstrate that the Official 9/11 Account is a Fabrication
    by Elias Davidsson
    http://www.globalresearch.ca 29 April 2005
    The URL of this article is: http://globalresearch.ca/articles/DAV504A.html

    ——————————————————————————–

    The term “official 9/11 account” refers to the account of the events of Sept. 11, 2001, as presented in June 2004 by the Commission of Inquiry appointed by President George W. Bush, and complemented by other official documents issued by US government agencies. This account includes various details, such as identities of the alleged hijackers, identities of aircraft, timelines and other data used to prove that the crime of 9/11 was perpetrated by the named individuals under the orders or the inspiration of Osama bin Laden and other al Qaeda leaders.

    It can be demonstrated by two straightforward mathematical techniques that the official acccount on 9/11 is simply not true.

    The first method uses boolean algebra. The other method is based on probability theory.

    Boolean algebra used to invalidate the official 9/11 account

    Boolean algebra deals not with numbers but with truth values. In Boolean mathematics we have only two values: True and false. One of the primary operations in boolean algebra is the operator AND. In the equation A AND B we have:

    Given A = true and B = true, then A AND B = true
    Given A = true and B = false, then A AND B = false
    Given A = false and B = true, then A AND B = false
    Given A = false and B = false, then A AND B = false

    The AND relationship can be illustrated by three bulbs connected in series. The truth value for each bulb is ON or OFF. In order for bulb C to be ON, both A and B must be ON. If either A or B or both are OFF, C will not obtain electrical current and be OFF. The same would apply to a longer series of bulbs connected in series.

    Applying the AND relationship to the official 9/11 account, we posit that

    in order for the official account to be true, a number N of fundamental allegations must be proved as true. If any one of these fundamental allegations are false, the entire official account is false.

    Thus, it is only necessary to demonstrate that a single fundamental allegation in the official account is false for the entire account to be deemed false. Fundamental allegations include the following (a non-exhaustive list), all of which are part of the official version on 9/11:

    1. No plans existed prior to 9/11 to protect the Pentagon and the White House against approaching aircraft (if such plans actually existed, questions would arise why they were not implemented and who prevented their implementation).
    2. The idea that the World Trade Center could be attacked from air, did not occur to any US government agency before 9/11 (if it is shown that the idea actually was discussed by US military agencies, the question would arise why it was not taken into consideration to protect these assets).
    3. All persons named by the FBI as hijackers actually boarded the four aircraft which crashed on 11 Sep. 2001 (if they did not board the aircraft, the hijackings could not have taken place).
    4. The planes which crashed on 11 Sep. 2001 were flight number AA11 (tail number N334AA), flight number AA77 (tail number N644AA), flight number UA93 (tail number N591UA) and flight number UA175 (tail number N612UA) (if the flight and tail number are not those listed here, the question arises whether the planes that allegedly crashed at the known locations were the same ones which departed from the listed airports).
    5. Flight AA11, a Boeing 767, left from Logan Airport, Boston, and crashed into the North Tower of the World Trade Center in New York (some critical assumptions made in the official story rely on the identity of this flight number, the airport of departure and on the type of aircraft).
    6. Flight AA77, a Boeing 757, left from Dulles Airport, Washington, D.C., and crashed into the Pentagon in Washington, D.C. (some critical assumptions made in the official story rely on the identity of this flight number, the airport of departure, the type of aircraft and the claim that this aircraft crashed on the Pengaton).
    7. Flight UA175, a Boeing 767, left from Logan Airport, Boston, and crashed into the South Tower of the World Trade Center in New York (some critical assumptions made in the official story rely on the identity of this flight number, the airport of departure and on the type of aircraft.
    8. Flight UA93, a Boeing 757, left from Newark Airport and crashed into a field near Shanksville, Pennsylvania (some critical assumptions made in the official story rely on the identity of this flight number, the airport of departure and on the type of aircraft).
    9. The US military were not notified in time to scramble military jets and prevent the crashes of the hijacked aircraft (had they been notified in time, questions would arise why they did not scramble military jets in time and who was negligent).
    10. President George W. Bush did not know that “America was under attack” before entering the primary school in Florida on the morning of 9/11 (should it transpire that President Bush actually knew what was going on in New York as he entered the school, questions would arise as to his foreknowledge of the crime).
    11. The South and North towers of the World Trade Center as well as WTC no. 7 collapsed due to fire (if evidence can be produced that steel buildings cannot be made to collapse by fire, it would suggest that they were made to collapse by explosives, as actually suggested by a number of witnesses).
    12. Numerous calls from hijacked passengers were made to family members and airline personnel with cell phones (if it can be shown that at the particular moment of the phone calls the planes were flying above 8,000 feet and/or at the speed of 500 miles per hour or more, it would suggest that the cellphone stories are a fabrication, because of the technical high improbability of succeeding such calls from high altitude and/or high speed).

    If any one of the above allegations is found to be false, the official account must be put in doubt or rejected and the suggestion of official deception or criminal complicity must be considered as justified.

    Probability theory used to invalidate the official 9/11 account

    It is also possible to “disprove” the official 9/11 account by using probability theory. If it is shown that the probability of the official account is so low as to approach zero, it can be safely maintained that the official account is untrue.

    The probability of a compound event to have occurred is the product of all sub-events necessary to accomplish the compound event. The underlying assumption is that the probability of each sub-event is independent of the probability of another sub-event. The following sub-events appear independent of each other. All of them have a low to extremly low probability. In order to simplify the demonstration, we arbitrarily assigned a probability of 0.1 (or 10 percent) to each of the following selected propositions which underpin the official account. Skeptics may try other combinations of probabilities, higher or lower, in order to test the methodology.

    1. Four young, healthy and educated Muslims who possess large chunks of cash and like to party, can be expected to prepare for many months to sacrifice their lives in a murderous hijacking operation.

    2. Four groups of Muslims can be expected to board four different aircraft in the United States on the same day without raising suspicion.

    3. Young muslim men, known to have been in Afghanistan, would be expected to receive a visa to the United States in order to learn to fly.

    4. Foreign Muslims who plan to hijack planes in the United States, can be expected to choose to train in US, rather than Arab, flight schools in order to prepare their hijackings.

    5. A person planning a hijack operation in the US could be expected to tell an official US employee about his criminal motives, as Mohamed Atta had reportedly done in his encounter with Johnelle Bryant of the Agricultural Department in Florida.

    6. Muslims who meticulously plan a hijacking operation in the United States, could be expected to “forget” a Kor’an on a bar stool on the eve of their operation and a flight manual in Arabic on the morning of their operation, in a rented car left near the airport from which they intended to hijack a plane.

    7. Hijackers can be expected to fly from another town to the airport from which they intend to commit the hijacking operation merely two hours before their intended hijacking should start.

    8. US military authorities can be expected to schedule, for exactly the date of the murderous events, war games and exercises including simulated plane hijackings and planes crashing on government buildings.

    9. Conversations from cell phones made from passenger aircraft can be expected to function at any altitude and speed.

    10. Passports of hijackers could be expected to be found on the crash sites, regardless of the lack of bodies and wreckage.

    11. The US air force could be expected to bungle its attempts to intercept the hijacked planes.

    12. No plans could have existed at the Pentagon to protect US government buildings against the risk of an accidental or malicious plane crash.

    13. Neither the CIA nor the FBI could have any prior knowledge of the identities and whereabouts of the alleged hijackers before 9/11.

    14. A law enforcement authority, such as the FBI, could be expected to show little interest in investigating mass murder.

    15. A government would be expected to oppose an investigation of a terrorist attack against its own country.

    16. Terrorists can be expected to commit mass murder without making any demands.

    17. Five individuals with only packing knives can be expected to overwhelm fifty adults in a plane.

    18. Hijackers in three different planes can be expected to successfully enter the pilot cabin without raising alarm.

    19. A person who had never flown a Boeing passanger jet could be expected after a little simulator training to plunge the aircraft successfully between the first and second floor of the side of the Pentagon, even under conditions of extreme stress.

    20. A crashed plane can be expected to leave any visible trace.

    21. A high rise steel building can be expected to collapse on its own footprint after a raging fire.

    22. Debris from a crashed plane can be expected to be found many miles from the crash site.

    The compound probability of the above events is the product of the individual probabilities or 0.1**22 (0.1 in the 22 exponential). The actual figure is so small that it practically nears zero.

    If one accepts the above propositions (even by increasing their probability of occurrence to 0,5), it follows that their compound probability is near zero. In fact, it suffices that a subset of the above propositions be shown to have a compound probability of near zero, to invalidate the official account on 9/11.

    While both methods demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt that the U.S. authorities have fabricated the official account, the question arises why they have done so, what are they covering up, who perpetrated the mass murder of 9/11 and how was it accomplished. These questions are not pursued further here. As long as the above statements of fact are not fully investigated, the U.S. administration must be considered as covering up the crime and thus as the prime suspect in this crime against humanity.

  • Ray Von Kiddz

    A rabbi,a priest and a giraffe walk into
    a tavern followed by a couple who start
    to make love right there on the barroom
    floor.The barkeep sez:”Hey,what is this
    a fuckin’ joke?”

  • hdhntr

    It’s even simpler than that.

    Buildings fell at just about (give or take a second) absolute free fall in a vacuum, and they were made of steel from the ground up, with a solid structural steel core. Big beams, bolted and welded, each floor.

    Free Fall = 9.2 seconds
    North Tower = 9 seconds, pissibly less.

    Multiple eye and ear witnesses, along with clips that SHOW IT still to this day, multiple, firey explosions, and demo squibs, wave upon wave as the building came down at FREE FALL SPEED!

    It’s the strongest argument of them all.

    If there’s one thing you won’t catch me doing, it’s attempting to stand on guard and help cover up the LIE, the blatant flat out and patently absurd BIG LIE that is the official story of 9/11.

    Patriotic Nationalism can go too far, if you swallow too much BS from the tyrannical maniacal malevolent power hungry brats and snearing madmen.

    Who the F___ would step in and try to defend their crap, which it is so clearly and evidently total BS from so many angles and perspectives, there is no need to invoke coincidence theory to show it to be utterly absurd.

    The building fell at the rate of free fall. Did I say FREE FALL from top, to bottom.

    Doesn’t take a phyisist to run a little thought experiment based on that observed reality does it?

    Here’s a hint. ZERO RESISTENCE FORCES.

    ZERO.

    And yes, mulitple explosions and demolition squibs, all of which were reported by first hand eyewitnesses and which may STILL BE VIEWED.

  • splat

    “Naturally the common people don’t want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY.”

  • hdhntr

    Goering?

  • hdhntr

    Joseph Goebbels

    Looks like he is the one who coined the phrase “total war” which Richard Perle (Harbor) “prince of darkness” took up prior to 9-11 in referring to the Middle East. Said “our children will sing our praises” about this era..

    This is as much about history and the truth, as it is about justice.

    That it be recorded accurately is what is most important of all, so that something of value may be served in terms of what can be learned from this entire episode of historical insanity that is 9/11 and it’s wake.

  • hdhntr

    here

    here

    Occam’s Razor
    one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything

    PRINCIPLE OF PARSIMONY OR PRINCIPLE OF SIMPLICITY
    a criterion for deciding among scientific theories or explanations. One should always choose the simplest explanation of a phenomenon, the one that requires the fewest leaps of logic.

    —–

    Occam’s razor is a logical principle attributed to the mediaeval philosopher William of Occam (or Ockham). The principle states that one should not make more assumptions than the minimum needed. This principle is often called the principle of parsimony. It underlies all scientific modelling and theory building. It admonishes us to choose from a set of otherwise equivalent models of a given phenomenon the simplest one. In any given model, Occam’s razor helps us to “shave off” those concepts, variables or constructs that are not really needed to explain the phenomenon. By doing that, developing the model will become much easier, and there is less chance of introducing inconsistencies, ambiguities and redundancies.
    Though the principle may seem rather trivial, it is essential for model building because of what is known as the “underdetermination of theories by data”. For a given set of observations or data, there is always an infinite number of possible models explaining those same data. This is because a model normally represents an infinite number of possible cases, of which the observed cases are only a finite subset. The non-observed cases are inferred by postulating general rules covering both actual and potential observations.

    For example, through two data points in a diagram you can always draw a straight line, and induce that all further observations will lie on that line. However, you could also draw an infinite variety of the most complicated curves passing through those same two points, and these curves would fit the empirical data just as well. Only Occam’s razor would in this case guide you in choosing the “straight” (i.e. linear) relation as best candidate model. A similar reasoning can be made for n data points lying in any kind of distribution.

    Occam’s razor is especially important for universal models such as the ones developed in General Systems Theory, mathematics or philosophy, because there the subject domain is of an unlimited complexity. If one starts with too complicated foundations for a theory that potentially encompasses the universe, the chances of getting any manageable model are very slim indeed. Moreover, the principle is sometimes the only remaining guideline when entering domains of such a high level of abstraction that no concrete tests or observations can decide between rival models. In mathematical modelling of systems, the principle can be made more concrete in the form of the principle of uncertainty maximization: from your data, induce that model which minimizes the number of additional assumptions.

    “““

    You see, when we take the very laws of physics – namely Gallileo’s Law of Free Falliing Bodies and Isaac Newton’s Law of Gravity, and then apply “Occam’s Razor” to the two opposing theories of the collapse of the twin towers and building 7, what we find, given the timed rate of collapse, which is ON TAPE and preserved forever (the first hand, recorded in real time phyisical event itself), when comparing that collapse relative to (yes, relative to!) the rate of absolute FREE FALL in a complete vacuum is that only ONE of the two hypothesis is even in the realm of what is possible, and therefore it MUST be accepted as fact and no longer “theory”. Namely that controlled demolition is the only possible (beyond even probable and therefore a certainty) explanation for the event or phenomenon in question (free fall collapse of the buildings). Whether they are off absolute free fall in a vacuum by a mere second or two is irrelevant. Why? Air resistence.

    They screwed up. They should have had it fall bit by bit and slowed the fall somewhat. But that is not what happened, and therefore the 9/11 truth movement now has an iron clad proof that 911 involved the demolition of the twin towers and building 7 and was therefore, among other things, a shock and awe psychological operation of the farthest reaching proportions.

    There are simply no two ways around this conclusion, without breaking all three rules at the same time, since a structural steel building, even under an accelerated collapse still implies and in fact demand, that certain forces of load and resistence are operative, thus slowing down the collapse to a greater or lessor degree, which, even if minimized to the greatest possible extent, by every possible contortion of the Razor rule of the law of parsimony, would still involve a fall much slower than free fall (9.2 seconds), which, in the case of the north tower does not appear possible, as it seems to have hit the ground FASTER than the rate of free fall as a result of some pressure differential, between the vacuum created from CD and the atmosphere surrounding the building.

    Therefore, from a historical perspective, the official story is pattently false and utterly absurd.

    It simply cannot be recorded as a structural failure, unless they are able to remove from the net and from all records every instance of the full top to bottom collapse clip, and believe you me, there are after the ones on the Internet already I am sure, cataloguing them, for their hideous Orwellian historical revisionism, but that’s fiction. This is the real world, where obliterating historical reality will not be possible, and is not, as has been proven, well beyond any reasonable doubt whatsoever, in accordance with the physical laws of the universe itself, which were in effect on 9/11 as well.

  • splat

    Yes thatt phrase was from Goering?.
    Hermann Goering, President of the Reichstag,
    Nazi Party, and Luftwaffe Commander in Chief,
    from Gilbert, G.M. (1947). Nurenberg Diary

  • splat

    You know I don’t believe that Bush Could be smart enough to have pulled this off, but the guy who really is the power behing President ahhh I mean Bush could have. Cheney

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    hdhntr, I’ve read you repeat the bit about free-fall over and over and over on this thread, but I’ve got to tell you: it’s just not true. As video footage shows, it took much longer. Much, much longer.

    Moment of truth time, hdhntr: what are you going to do now?

    I have my bet on red.

  • irishdrifter

    ” remarkably clear by now that aside from irishdrifter trying to implicate Jewish people in some nefarious plot”

    NO, wrong [deleted]. I implicated ISRAEL.

    Out come the anti-semite criers.

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    irishdrifter, the comment policy here prohibitis name-calling.

    In addition to the fact that I’ve answered long lists of your questions and you’ve refused to answer the single question I’ve asked in return, you’ve also mentioned Israel, Zionists, and Jews in your comments here (such as 575). Oops! If you’re going to pretend it’s all about the government and not about the people, you’ve got to remember to use the right code-words.

    Better yet, if your complaint is with the government of Israel, describe them as “the government of Israel” or “the Israel government,” instead of the more general statements.

    See, when a particular people group has millions around the world trying to kill them, one has to be a bit more careful when criticizing them. It’s not hard to understand.

  • irishdrifter

    YOU CALLED ME ANTI SEMITE!! SO STFU!!

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    No, that is incorrect. Your statement is revealing in that it exemplifies how little the actual facts on record have to do with your stated perceptions, but it is completely false.

    What I said was that you were “trying to implicate Jewish people in some nefarious plot,” a statement that is clearly supported by the facts. You’ve used the label “Jewish,” you’ve mentioned at least one Jewish person by name in a disgusting allegation, and have made repeated references to Israel (populated largely by Jewish people), the Mossad (Jewish people), and when pushed you “clarified” by claiming you were talking about the government of Israel, which is also made up mostly of Jewish people.

    You invoked the label of anti-Semite, not me. Scroll up and check.

    But hey, you’ve yet again avoided my direct statements and questions, which is so expected now I think I might experience a myocardial infarction if anyone here ever did put forth a real answer to my overriding question.

    If you’ve got something substantive to say, say it. If all you’ve got is name-calling, nation-bashing, question-avoiding, and hysterical false accusations, go sell crazy someplace else. We’re all stocked up here.

  • irishdrifter

    You said I was trying to implicate Jews in a nefarious plot.

    You inferred I was anti-Semitic!!

    I don’t do religion. I dont care about religion. I do not believe in any kind of god. I would not even qualify as an athiest. That suggests that there is a god and I’m in denial. I dont believe in any kind of god anywhere anyhow. Religion is for sheeple. “Hey, I dont have to ask any questions – they are all here.” Lazy mans answer.

    God does not pass the truth tests of deductive logic and evidence etc.

    This is about the murder of 3000 Americans, and several hundred thousand Hitites by the Americans and the Israelis. The USA and Israel are the most racist countrys in the world and when it’s suggested out comes the anti-Semitic defense – like some untouchable chess piece that one player has in advantage over the other.

    It doesnt work like that. If you are a murderer then you are a murderer despite what little grey bearded man in the sky you believe in….and I dont mean Osama Bin Ladin.

    If you do some serious 911 research instead of taking your daily Faux catechism you will see that there is 2 skyscrapers full of evidence pointing at the Bush administration and our old friends in the Zionist Entity.

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    Again and again I’ve answered questions and provided examples of evidence supporting the idea that the WTC was struck by Islamist hijackers. Again and again, you’ve refused to answer my only question.

    I never involved religion in this discussion, or race — you have.

    You said the Mossad is responsible for bombings in Kenya, that Daniel Lewin was involved in a faked hostage situation as well as 9/11, and so on. In other words, you inferred that you are anti-Semitic.

    This is about the murder of 3000 people, including Americans, Jewish people, Arab people, Austalians, and so on and so forth. New York is a very cosmopolitan and international city.

    If you would answer my one question instead of dancing around with various random accusations that all somehow involve a Jewish person or groups of Jewish people, you might find a bit fewer raised eyebrows on that score.

    What’s your theory about 9/11?

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    I’d like the record to show that I’ve not posted in about 200 comments and the Jewish thread is back.

  • Graham

    It would be interesting to know how many Jews died that day.

  • hdhntr

    Well Phillip, for the link you gave, the “Video Footage” in the form of “real-time CNN broadcast feed” does not work.

    However, the two freeze frame images with the captions
    “the South Tower about 10 seconds into its collapse”
    &
    “the North Tower about 11.4 seconds into its collapse”

    Appears to be intentionally misleading..

    People can look at the collapse in this little presentation with their own eyes to see that.

    http://www.erichufschmid.net.nyud.net:8090/AreTheCriminalsFrightened.wmv

    And here, there are a number of clips, though I’m not sure if there’s on here of the entire collapse. Lots showing explosives being used though, and some which will show those two statements to be utterly false.

    http://xenonpuppy.net/video%20archive/

    Bear in mind too, that while the information you’ve offered appears to be intentionally misleading, that even if it were so, 3-5 seconds difference, in terms of the dynamic of free fall collapse which I am describing for buildings of that height, hardly makes any difference whatsoever.

    Try counting off 4 seconds.

    “Much much longer” eh?

    Right.

    Btw, did you know that the buildings were designed to withstand a strike of similar energy by a similar plane, and that until 9/11 never once had a large steel structured building EVERY collapsed due to fire?

    And I’m not sure if you posted Silverstein’s “pull it” comment, but whoever did, neglected to put in the last sentence where he said “and so we made the decision to pull, and then we watched the building collapse.”

    WTC7 would not have been pre-prepped for controlled demolition at any time, and if it was, why was FEMA called in to do a performance review on the collapse? That makes no sense.

    You are looking a smoking gun down the barrel.

  • hdhntr

    What is interesting about your post and that link Phillip, in terms of Eric Hufschmid, is that everyone can see by simply watching this small presentation of his

    http://www.erichufschmid.net.nyud.net:8090/AreTheCriminalsFrightened.wmv

    That he counts down ten seconds to the clip of the collapse of the south tower, and well, everyone can see that for themselves with their own two eyes.

    Yes, it goes into the dust cloud but the count continues, so there may be an extrapolation of a mere second or two, but it looks to be about right to me.

    What do the others think? It’s pretty straight forward.

  • irishdrifter

    3 Jews died on 911, we think!!

    Daniel Lewin flight 11 [we think]
    Avlona ? flight 175 [we think]

    1 person in Manhattan who didnt have his Odigo pager with him. Contrary to the “hundreds of Israelis dead” statement from Killer Bush on the same day.

    There were deaths from such economic powerehouses as Ireland and Grenada. Of course they chose a multi-national target. See the “coalition of the killing”. Even neutral countries like Ireland have been tainted as war criminals because of the un-questioning assistance our criminal government gave post 911.

    My theory about 911 ?

    For years America and Israel have plotted the capture the ME’s oil/ gas and other mineral resources because (a) they do not consider the Arabs as worthy of owning them [RACISM]. and (b) Those resources are badly needed to fuel the American/Israeli Military/Industrial complex. [MURDERERS]. and (c) they had to cover up the massive ENRON fraud in the WTC [CORPORATE THIEVES].

    911 was the coming together of all these things. But fortunatley, they made an arse of it, or everyone in the world would have been suckered.

    Osama is a fictional character – straight out of the pages of Hans Christian Andersen. Hijackers still alive. Fake TV footage. The buildings did not collapse – any fool can see they exploded from the top down.

    WTC7. The Customs House. The Seismic evidence. Molten Steel in the 5 basement 6 weeks later. Some fucking kerosene that was. No black boxes. TWO of the Flights were not sheduled. See the BTS database.

    The passenger lists are faked.

    Do an SSDI search for the victims of Flight 11!
    HERE

    When you get a positive result look at the Date of Death!!

    NO wreckage at the Penatgon.
    NO wreckage in PA.

    Jamie MacIntyre CNN. “Im standing outside the Pentagon, there is no sign of an aircraft, no wings, nothing.”

    Dan Rather “It looks just like a controlled explosion”. D’oh!

    I know whats wrong! The Americans cannot accept that they have been duped. They are in serious denial.

    All I ask is for each of you to look at ALL the EVIDENCE and then make a judgement.

    It’s not good enough to accept Osama and his 19 merry men did it, un-questioningly?

    “Because they hate our freedoms”??HAHAHAHA!!

    You got the Patriot Act, which had been drawn up in ADVANCE.

    Why didnt Osama attack Sweden or Ireland, for that matter, if it was an attack against democratic freedoms?

    Tell me about the Anthrax Attacks!!
    Dr Zack. Hello-o!! Even the backwater villagewhere I live had an Anthrax Scare in the post 911 climate.

    The desired effect is what you get!!

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    So it’s all about the oil? The folks who tried to blow up the WTC in 1993, they were content to give up after one shot, but we’re digging for oil. The fact that we haven’t pulled a single barrel out of Iraq doesn’t matter? That oil prices are higher than before doesn’t matter? That Enron fraud, boy that’s covered up now!

    A lot of the other things you’ve mentioned I’ve already provided counter-evidence for. This is getting old.

    But hey — at least you finally offered a theory, of sorts.

    Tell me, were there *any* people on those planes?

    What about the families of the passengers, are they all in on it?

  • hdhntr

    “were there *any* people on those planes?”

    All indication is that there were not.

  • JR

    They were all transported into the future by time-travelling stewardesses; their places were taken by already dead bodies just minutes before impact.

  • Schubstro

    Phil, about that 1993 WTC incident;

    The FBI allowed the 1993
    WTC bombing to happen

    ——————————————————————————–

    THE NEW YORK TIMES

    * * * * *

    Thursday October 28, 1993 Page A1

    “Tapes Depict Proposal to Thwart
    Bomb Used in Trade Center Blast”

    By Ralph Blumenthal

    Law-enforcement officials were told that terrorists were building
    a bomb that was eventually used to blow up the World Trade Center,
    and they planned to thwart the plotters by secretly substituting
    harmless powder for the explosives, an informer said after
    the blast.

    The informer was to have helped the plotters build the bomb
    and supply the fake powder, but the plan was called off by
    an F.B.I. supervisor who had other ideas about how the informer,
    Emad Salem, should be used, the informer said.

    The account, which is given in the transcript of hundreds of
    hours of tape recordings that Mr. Salem secretly made of his
    talks with law-enforcement agents, portrays the authorities as
    being in a far better position than previously known to foil
    the February 26th bombing of New York City’s tallest towers.

    The explosion left six people dead, more than a thousand people
    injured, and damages in excess of half-a-billion dollars.
    Four men are now on trial in Manhattan Federal Court
    [on charges of involvement] in that attack.

    Mr. Salem, a 43-year-old former Egyptian Army officer, was used
    by the Government [of the United States] to penetrate a circle
    of Muslim extremists who are now charged in two bombing cases:
    the World Trade Center attack, and a foiled plot to destroy
    the United Nations, the Hudson River tunnels, and other
    New York City landmarks. He is the crucial witness in the
    second bombing case, but his work for the Government was
    erratic, and for months before the World Trade Center blast,
    he was feuding with th F.B.I.

    Supervisor `Messed It Up’

    After the bombing, he resumed his undercover work. In an
    undated transcript of a conversation from that period,
    Mr. Salem recounts a talk he had had earlier with an agent
    about an unnamed F.B.I. supervisor who, he said,

    “came and messed it up.”
    “He requested to meet me in the hotel,”

    Mr. Salem says of the supervisor.

    “He requested to make me to testify, and if he didn’t
    push for that, we’ll be going building the bomb with
    a phony powder, and grabbing the people who was
    involved in it. But since you, we didn’t do that.”

    The transcript quotes Mr. Salem as saying that he wanted to
    complain to F.B.I. Headquarters in Washington about the
    Bureau’s failure to stop the bombing, but was dissuaded by
    an agent identified as John Anticev.

    Mr. Salem said Mr. Anticev had told him,

    “He said, I don’t think that the New York people would
    like the things out of the New York Office to go to
    Washington, D.C.”

    Another agent, identified as Nancy Floyd, does not dispute
    Mr. Salem’s account, but rather, appears to agree with it,
    saying of the `New York people':

    “Well, of course not, because they don’t want to
    get their butts chewed.”

    ——————————————————————————–

    The result of the explosion:

    6 civilians killed
    Over 1,000 injured
    105 firefighters injured – 5 admitted to local hospitals
    reinforced floors almost 30 inches think blasted away on 3 levels below grade, plus a concourse level floor, leaving a crater about 150 feet in diameter at it’s largest point.
    On the B1 level, the operations control center of the Port Authority Police Department (and the fire command station forthe complex) was heavily damaged and rendered out of service.
    On the B2 level, various walls of elevator shafts and freshair plenums severely damaged, allowing smoke to enter and rise through the cores of both towers.
    Numerous concrete walls destroyed or damaged.
    200,000 cubic feet of water poured into the lowest grade from damaged refrigeration unit supplies (from the Hudson River), sewer lines, fresh domestic water lines, steam pipes, and condensate return. Water 1.5 feet deep across the B6 level.
    124 parked cars destroyed, 102 damaged.
    Partition walls blown out onto PATH train mezzanine.
    Numerous telephone conduits collapsed from ceiling onto cars (but phone service was not cut, miraculously).
    Fire alarm and public address systems out of service.
    Elevators out of service.
    Water cooled emergency generators shut down due to overheating when their water supply was cut. This disabled the emergency lighting.
    Sprinklers & standpipes out of service.
    2,500 tons of rubble removed.
    Clean up effort involved 2,700 workers per day, plus a total of 160,000 gallons of cleaning fluid and 200,00 gallons of detergent.
    Restoration cost: $250,000,000.

    ——————————————————————————–

    Cheney Links Saddam to ’93 World Trade Center Attack
    Friday, July 2, 2004

    Speaking in New Orleans on Thursday, Vice President Dick Cheney drew direct connection between Iraq and al Qaida’s efforts to destroy the World Trade Center, noting that one of the key operatives in the first attack on the Twin Towers was granted sanctuary by Saddam Hussein.

    “After the 1993 World Trade Center attack, Iraq gave sanctuary to one of the bombers, Abdul Rahman Yasin,” Cheney told a gathering at the city’s D-Day Museum. [NewsMax]

    If the above is true then why didn’t the U.S. go after Iraq following the 1993 WTC bombings?

    —————————————
    oh, and a rebuttal to that blatant propaganda peice in Popular Mechanics;

    http://www.serendipity.li/wot/pop_mech/reply_to_popular_mechanics.htm

    BTW, did you know that the term; ‘Yellow Journalism’ was coined after Hearst Publications? (none other than the same publisher for Popular Mechanics)

    William Randolph Hearst (1863-1951)

    Inspired by the journalism of Joseph Pulitzer, Hearst turned the newspaper into a combination of reformist investigative reporting and lurid sensationalism. He soon developed a reputation for employing the best journalists available. This included Ambrose Bierce, Stephen Crane, Mark Twain, Richard Harding Davis and Jack London. Hearst was a member of the United States House of Representatives (1903-07) In the 1920s Hearst built a castle on a 240,000 acre ranch at San Simeon, California. At his peak he owned 28 major newspapers and 18 magazines, along with several radio stations and movie companies. The Great Depression weakened his financial position and by 1940 he had lost personal control of his vast communications empire. Hearst upset the left-wing in America by being a pro-Nazi in the 1930s and a staunch anti-Communist in the 1940s. William Randolph Hearst @ spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk

    He studied at Harvard, then took over the San Francisco Examiner in 1887 from his father. He acquired the New York Morning Journal (1895), and launched the Evening Journal in 1896. He sensationalized journalism by the introduction of banner headlines and lavish illustrations. Believed by many to have initiated the Spanish–American War of 1898 to encourage sales of his newspaper, he also advocated political assassination in an editorial just months before the assassination of President McKinley. His national chain of newspapers and periodicals grew to include the Chicago Examiner , Boston American , Cosmopolitan , and Harper’s Bazaar . His life inspired the Orson Welles film Citizen Kane –biography.com

    “Yellow Journalism” Though the term was originally coined to describe the journalistic practices of Joseph Pulitzer, William Randolph Hearst proved himself worthy of the title. Today, it is his name that is synonymous with “yellow journalism.” The Sensational Beginnings of Yellow Journalism

    … where “yellow journalism” got its start. In a classic example of the power of ownership, Hearst responded to illustrator Frederic Remington’s request to return from a Havana that was quiet, “Please remain. You furnish the pictures and I’ll furnish the war.” –Spanish–American War of 1898

  • hdhntr

    DHS Dir Chernoff is directly related to the Popular Mechanics publisher, or one of the heads there.

  • HW Saxton

    Dear Conspiracy Believers (aka KOOKS),
    If there were not any real people on the
    planes then was all of the TV footage
    just made up and actually fake?If so,was
    the entire city of New York paid off by
    the Govt to say different about it then?
    From my understanding a few people in NY
    at the time did happen to see something
    happen on the morning of 9/11/01.

    So there were NO humans on those planes
    that crashed 9/11/01 ??????????????????
    Wowza,Yowza!! As if all the rest of this
    so called conspiracy ain’t hard enough
    to follow,that sure does take the cake.

    How DO you acount for all of the corpses
    found littering the wreckage(s)? As was
    pointed out & brought to question: How
    DO you explain all the families of the
    non-existent “Corpses” being involved?
    They were paid & coached ahead of time
    to corroborate the Govt. story/cover up?
    How DO you explain away all of the phone
    call records from air to ground in those
    minutes before the crash?The phone calls
    were all just made up by their respected
    companies that provided these various
    passengers phone service? Out of all of
    these people involved, no one talked or
    shot off his mouth to somebody about the
    supposed cover-up in regards to either
    the “Faked Deaths”,the Calls,any of the
    flights that were never really taken,
    although passenger booking/reservation
    records make it glaringly obvious that
    many people were on these flights and
    perished in the aftermath?

    Were all of these “Bodies” found just a
    bunch of Med.School training cadavers?
    What of the pilots that took off from
    the airports at the start of all these
    flights? Did they bail out via parachute
    with new ID and lives supplied by the
    Govt? Are they in a witness relocation
    program? Are they all living happily
    ever after in Nebraska somewhere rich on
    Govt. hush money for their part of the
    “Conspiracy”???

    irishspring and hdhntr,If you guys could
    and /or would just answer – ONE FUGGIN’
    QUESTION – that’s all,just one question,
    directly I would gladly start into re-
    evaluate my thoughts on the whole 9/11
    ordeal but as it stands your theories
    have more holes in ‘em than they have
    evidence to support your views. And it’s
    obvious without even reading between the
    lines even, that a lot of you feel the
    Jews are behind this and obviously don’t
    have any love lost for those folks of
    Hebraic descent. To deny or to try and
    state otherwise is only just lying to
    yourselves as it’s here in Black & White
    in these threads in tooooooo many posts.

  • irishdrifter

    Dear Head in Sand (AKA SAXTON)

    The only conspiracy is the one your government offered you on Sept 11 2001 and has stuck to it ever since.

    The EVIDENCE points in another direction entirely.

  • irishdrifter

    Second Bite:

    Thanks to the moderator who fixed my italics tag.

    Mr Winn regarding the families…

    Mrs Mariani who is bringing the RICO action against Bush has stated…

    “I have not been able to find one relative of anybody who was alleged to have been on board the flight”.

    I think you had better have a look at the text of Operation Northwoods

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    You’re welcome on the italics.

    Mrs Mariani needs to look a lot more closely — I’ve seen a bunch of them. Read interviews, heard interviews, seen interviews, that sort of thing.

    This is pointless. The facts have been laid out quite clearly in this thread, as have many other things. As long as you guy keep the URLs and HTML tags from going wacky, I think I’m done here.

  • HW Saxton

    Yo, Irish. Why don’t you try and answer
    ONE, JUST ONE, of the questions posed???

    Instead you sidestep,offer zero zippity
    shit by way of evidence and ya refuse to
    answer anything that can be verified or
    proven beyond the theoretical with real
    and substantiated information.

    Q:If there was no one on the planes how
    were all those phone calls made and how
    did the Government cover up all of that?
    Answer that one OK?

    Q:If there were no humans on the planes,
    where did all of these corpses found in
    and amongst the the crash sites all come
    from? And just how were they all mangled
    beforehand and rushed to the scenes to
    be “planted”(yeah,right.As if……)on
    these sites in just minutes afterwards?
    Answer that one OK? I said ANSWER THAT.

    Q: Why can’t you guys answer one fuckin’
    straight forward question with anything
    close to a straightforward answer?

    Q: Just how in the name of fuck did the
    Govt. get all of those phone companies
    to falsify the records regarding those
    air to land phone calls from the planes
    involved in 9/11 ??? That would involve
    THOUSANDS of phone company employees and
    it would involve hundreds more of the
    people who made and recived these calls.
    Just how in the hell was -THAT- pulled
    off? The Govt. called ‘em into a room
    and gave them money or something to just
    lie about this? If so how did all they
    get and keep their stories straight? You
    can’t even get three thieves to keep up
    a straight story under an interrogation
    much less the thousands of people that
    it would take to get away with a very
    highly unlikely scenario such as this.
    Please feel free to ANSWER ME!!! Okay?

    I’m open to the reasonable and logical
    discourse on what may have happened up
    and beyond what we were shown and told
    as regards this event(9/11).But I’ve yet
    to see it,as you guys can’t even answer
    a simple fucking question without any of
    your immature name calling, posing other
    questions in place of an answer or just
    plain talking in circles.These are lame
    diversionary tactics commonly used by 8
    yr old lying little children not by an
    educated adult trying to put across his
    message and point logically.

  • HW Saxton

    In retrospect,Irish, hdhntr and the rest
    of ya do me a favor OK? Don’t bother to
    answer my questions. The more I try to
    bring up logical points against what I
    see as your utter and completely insane
    theoretical posturing,the crazier it’ll
    make me feel for even bothering with it
    in the first place. You guys are RIGHT.

    The Govt. from the Pres on down, had a
    hand in the destruction of part of NYC
    and the loss of thousands of Americans
    lives. This was so we could pay record
    prices for gas and recieve less oil than
    we were before the war started.I’m not
    sure how I failed to see the genius of
    your theories before, but it is all now
    becoming cystal clear. D’oh!!!

    You guys are soooo right. I concede and
    you can argue among yourselves or with
    your self,whatever the case may be here.
    I’m outta here!

  • irishdrifter

    (a) You cannot make cellphone calls from the “faraday cage” of an airplane.

    (b)Which corpses? Where? PA? Pentagon?

    (c) If the fucking question in question had any validity, not the usual GOV sponsored shite I would answer it.

    (d) What phone records? The faked ones you mean?

    “Hi mom it’s me Mark Bingham……your son….gotta go now the ragheads have red head bands on and a bomb!!”

    Another “passenger” phoned the Verizon operator, which lasted 20 minutes, from the toilet. He didnt call his pregnant wife. Now they have airphones in the toilet. Mrs Olson “called collect” but no records of the call exist.

    You want answers. Ask the right questions of the right people!! If anything I say is wrong I will immediately aknowledge the fact and retract.

    Means motive opportunity.

    The 3 keys to any succesful criminal investigation.

    Lets test them shall we?

    Did a bunch of “cavemen” have the means to carry out the most sophisticated attack in history?

    Did a bunch of “cavemen” have the motive to carry out the most spohisticated attack in history?

    [NB. They hate your freedoms doesn’t count.]

    Did a bunch of cavemen have the opportunity to carry out the most sophisticted attack in history?

    [NB you could say “Yes” here. Your Airforce stood down. But how did the terrirists know that they would??]

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    irish, I’ve made cell phone calls from airplanes many times.

  • irishdrifter

    Mr Saxton.

    Im sorry I didnt get round to answering your specific questions – I will re-read your posts and reply tomorrow. Ok?

  • Eric Olsen

    The Govt. from the Pres on down had a hand in the destruction of part of NYC and the loss of thousands of Americans lives. This was so we could pay record prices for gas and recieve less oil than we were before the war started.

    that sums it up for me, HW

  • irishdrifter

    Last week, USA Today reported a joint effort between Qualcomm and American Airlines’ to allow passengers to make cellphone calls from aircraft in flight. According to the story, the satellite-based system employs a “Pico cell” to act as a small cellular tower.

    “It worked great,” gushed Monte Ford, American Airline’s chief information officer. “I called the office. I called my wife. I called a friend in Paris. They all heard me great, and I could hear them loud and clear.”

    Before this new “Pico cell,” it was nigh on impossible to make a call from a passenger aircraft in flight. Connection is impossible at altitudes over 8000 feet or speeds in excess of 230 mph.

    Your honor I submit this witness is lying!!

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    Irish, did I say I’d made calls from planes over 8000 feet or in excess of 230mph? No, I said I’d made cell phone calls from inside of the Faraday cages known as airplanes, many times, demonstrating the falseness of your original claim.

    Call me a liar once more and you’re banned from the site.

  • irishdrifter

    So you made a call while the plane was on the tarmac!

    I will explain to you why cell-phones will not not work in an airplane.

    When you are 30,000 ft in the air all the relay masts on the ground are eqi-distant from the cell phone attempting the call.

    So your call goes to all the relay masts
    at the same time. Not only this you are travelling at 500 mph, so think about the masts on the ground.

    What happens is you get what telecoms engineers call a cascade. Thats why it’s impossible to make calls in the sky.

    On all of the flights I have been on you are asked to switch off all mobiles phones. This is a courtesy arranged between the Airlines and the Telecom companies.

    While you are sitting on the ground the airplanes radar and navigational equipment is not switched on, neither is a whole bunch of other electrical and digital and mechanical equipment to interfere with.

    Yes an airplane is a farraday cage. If it were subject to outside or internal interference it would be disastrous.

    I didnt call you a liar, I suggested that you were lying. Difference.

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    You claimed that cell phones wouldn’t work from inside and airplane. I informed you that they do. You’ve now changed your claim. Fine — but it is you who provided false information, not me.

    As it happens, I’ve made calls while in-flight, too, but only during takeoff and landing. I’m well aware of the technical aspects, as well as the business ones. The altitude problem is far more severe than the speed problem, in my experience.

    Big cities tend to embed cell “towers” inside tall buildings for good coverage, and so it is often easier to make calls while taking off or landing (i.e. flying low) there than anywhere else. When one is flying low enough to ram into the World Trade Center towers, I expect it wouldn’t be impossible to get a signal, based on my experience.

    Of course, that’s not counting the airphones, which work at all times.

  • irishdrifter

    The calls were allegedly made while the airplanes were in full flight – at 35k ft., not on the final approach to the towers.

    Please see Project Achilles

    I must admit I usually switch my cell phone off in-flight. I do not recall ever seeing a fellow passenger using a cell phone in mid flight, ever, in like 10 years.

    But dont switch over to airphones, thats how the GOV wriggled out of it!! But then had to backtrack. They don’t have airphones in the john do they?? You need a Credit card to make those calls, and there are no such records. Not even Barbara Olson the wife of the Bushie Attorney General, who was first to make this ludicrous allegation. They then tried to say she reversed the charges.

    Please if you are an honest citizen and not a shill for that murderous cabal that stole your country 4 years ago, go look find out for your self. Dont just sit there and take their word for it.

    There is not one iota of the GOV story that stands up to scrutiny.

    A conspiracy theory if ever there was one!

  • HW Saxton

    Once again ID, you amswer questions with
    questions? “Corpses? What Corpses?”….
    What fuckin’ corpses do you think I mean
    ya bonehead!The bodies found in the F’in
    wreckages of the planes in PA and D.C!!!
    Izzat clear enough? What do I have to do
    to get a straight answer outta ya? Just
    where did these bodies come from if,if &
    if there was NO ONE on the plane,silly
    rabbit? HUH?

    I’ve made cell phone calls coming into
    the landing pattern to arrange rides to
    my home upon landing many times. It is
    possible, it has been done.

    Yeah, the “Faked” phone records.How in
    hell did they pull that off? It would
    take thousands of conspirators. Did ya
    ever think of how logistically taxing it
    would be? So the records were “Faked”.
    How did they pull it off?I just want one
    real answer OK? It’s all I ask.

  • http://jcb.pentex-net.com John Bambenek

    ID, is it your position that most people are unable to recongize their own families on the telephone?

  • hdhntr

    It’s my understanding that, aside from some of the new systems which are proposed which will allow cell phone calls, that the ability to get and maintain a connection decreases dramatically with altitude and that speed of the aircraft may also be a factor.

    The only plane we have under the scope of a first hand, multiple perspective, recorded in real time video and photographic record, which is determinate, is the south tower plane.

    The long approach video of that plane has it clocked at approx 575 MPH making some very rapid maneuvers, and, as it approached the building, it came into the crosshairs of a number of video and still cameras, from a variety of different angles.

    When those videos are slowed down, and when the still shots are examined more closely – it can be proven beyond any reasonable doubt, that the plane which struck the south tower was not and could not have been ‘flight 175′, and there are a number of points of comparison, and at least one solid eye witness report by a Fox News Employee who saw the plane fly by at relative close range which verifies that.

    Additionally, there is footage which was used by one of the major networks, which appears to have been taken by a near IR capable camera, which reveals a laser light spot projected onto and passing across the south tower prior to impact, after which it vanishes, appears on the impact fireball, and then, a moment later, passes across the face of a building about a mile to the foreground, and then completely vanishes about half way across that foreground building. This more than suggests that a laser light and tracking system was in use for targeting and timing purposes.

    There’s much evidence to suggest that the plane was in fact a remotely piloted Boeing 767-300 cargo Tanker drone, which posessed additional equipment that does not belong on a Boeing 767-222, and that, furthermore, a fraction of a section prior to impact, it can be observed to fire a missile of some kind into the building.

    All indication is that the plane did not possess any passenger windows both from two relatively high res images, which I must admit are indeterminate, though very compelling, along with the first hand Fox News employees report, which he sticks to and maintains to this day.

    I am not suggesting collusion by the passengers, but only that the planes were swapped out, probably at the turning point when the original plane was reported to have fallen below radar threshold. This would be an almost identical scenario, to one of a number that was suggested by the Joint Chiefs to JFK as a pretext to invade Cuba known as Operation Northwoods back in the 60’s.

    No more proof than controlled demolition of the twin towers and building 7 is required to prove this event to be something other than what we’ve all been led to believe in the form of the official story, which we contend was a CIA run (and FBI blessed) false flag operation (19 hijackers led by Osama Bin Laden in Afganistan). However, there is more than that. Much more, the sum total of which, both in terms of weight and credibility (when viewed without contempt prior to investigation) overwhelmingly states that 9/11 was in fact, and in deed, an inside job, fully approved by the Bush Whitehouse, and in the planning stages for years prior, thus enveloping both political parties, and the presidencies of both Bill Clinton and Bush Sr.. All indication is that this thing was in the planning stages from the very early 90’s, and in a general form, much longer than that. And this is not just theorizing and speculation either. Much of the evidence is already in the public record strewn around, and all of the first hand video and photographic evidence, including the collapse of the buildings is all still very much available.

    Here – to better aquaint yourself with this alternative view of recent history, and so-called evidence that 9/11 was in fact, an inside job – please go to this site

    http://question911.com/links.php

    and review the following videos, preferrably in this order.

    1) David Ray Griffen’s CSPAN Speech
    2) 911 In Plane Site
    3) Dylan Avery’s Loose Change (Dylan’s a fellow researcher, a brave 20 year old kid who, with a few extra dollars has put together a pretty well presented documentary)
    4) Painful Deceptions by Eric Hufschmid, who was referenced in a link Winn offered a few posts back.

    Then, let’s talk about the evidence, piece by piece, including, not the least of which, is the evidence and proof of controlled demolition of the twin towers and building 7.

    If you feel for whatever reason that the weight of proof resides with the conspiracy hounds, even though the official theory is hardly self evident truth, and the Bush Admin’s behavior showing that of a willful and conscious cover up – we’re prepared to anti up to the table and argue this thing head on.

    None of these things can be easily dismissed. In fact, open examination, they must be accepted, unless we are prepared to go to any lengths to distort and obfuscate reality itself out of denial and the inability to face the obvious.

    “There is a principal which is a bar against all information, and proof against all arguments, and which cannnot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principal is contempt, prior to investigation.”
    ~ Herbert Spencer

  • hdhntr

    On the cell phone issue, aside from the low probabilities of all those calls, which we ONLY have reports ABOUT, getting connected at such altitude and speed, the technology for voice mimicking has been around for a long time and is no big deal.

    And there are one HECK of a lot of anomalies regarding the passenger manifests, and even the identity of the planes themselves in terms of the flight roster for that day. The whole thing’s a complete mess. Which is ought not be at all! Plane, flight, passengers – why should that be so confusing, but it is – IF you start to do some checking into it that is..

  • irishdrifter

    I see thats its ok to call anti government conspiracists names but not the reverse!!

    The bodies they found in PA. Oh my!

    They couldn’t even find the airplane.

  • hdhntr

    And there hasn’t been ANY investigation, aside from all these Internet Based private investigations, and aside from the 9/11 Ommission Commission’s report – to speak of. No crash investigation, no black boxes or data recorders, no scientific examination of the steel at G-0, and, aside form a couple of wars, no specific, targeted search and recovery of Osama Bin Laden, the purported “mastermind” of 9/11..

    C’mon. Wake up America! You’ve been duped, and while most know it, some simply won’t or cannot accept it, and that perhaps can be considered understandable, but is that kind of stance really acceptible, in the face of what we’re dealing with here, historically speaking? I don’t think so. No, upon review of this thread, you owe it to yourself, your country, and all the many victims of 9/11 to start doing some investigating of your own, if only to once and for all disprove these ‘theorists’ and show them to be kooks.

    Know that almost ALL of us ‘kooks’ were once on your side of the fence, incredulous, but then, once we started checking it, our view changed rather markedly, and now we are simply doing what we can with every ounce of whatever resources are available to us as independant researchers and now it would appear, “jounalists”. After all, someone’s got to do it, right? We can’t all be cowards can we?

  • hdhntr

    Uh irishdrifter? That just sais announcements. There’s nothing there..

  • irishdrifter

    Sorry, URL repair job NO AIRPLANE IN PA.

    John. The point about the alleged Bingham phone call:

    When was the last time you called your mom and said, “Hi mom, its me John Barnkbenck”?

  • http://blogcritics.com/ Han

    @philip winn

    Combining the flight records and the time of the calls shows that the calls were made at 35.000 Ft while at cruise-speed. The chance that a successful call was made at that time was less than 0.6 percent. And that would be a really flimsy connection. Yet quite a few long calls were recorded.

    So even if you can claim you made successful calls from a plane it does not apply to the situation at hand. You’re twisting words, so I can safely call you a liar. And you can’t ban me cause you don’t have the permissions, you’re bluffing.

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    Han’s IP address has been banned from posting comments here. He should have checked the sidebar and noted my name.

  • jabid

    Cell phone calls from normal GSM phones at CRUISING ALTITUDE are impossible (almost).

    I’ve tried it myself over the tri-state area, over eastern Canada, and over the south-central United States.

    Remember, the government claims CELL PHONE calls were made, not those pay-as-you-go sattelite phones.

    But that shouldnt ‘awaken’ you, the proof is in the CONSTANT LAWS OF PHYSICS, as mentioned by hdhunters previous statements.

  • escapetheMatrix

    Just a test comment to get my feet wet in this thread.

    Several posts ago HW Saxton asked about the “corpses” from the commercial flights that were supposedly discovered at the pentagon and Shanksville.

    Please allow me some time to do a little research in that area. I remember that Eric Hufschmid’s 2003 Painful Deceptions touches on that (though I can’t find that in his book Painful Questions); also, I believe that there had been an honored FOIA request for the AA77 autopsy reports.

    JJ

  • hdhntr

    In case anyone was curious about my prior comment about the observed laser light spot, you can view it yourself. It occurs at the very beginning of this 911 video (below), first running across the face of the south tower, then briefly disappearing, appearing on the fireball (which can be distinguished from other ‘debris’) and then moving directly onto the foreground building, at a downward arc, and then vanishing altogether. We’ve looked at this thing a 100 times, and have considered that it might be a bird or a piece of floating debris, but we’ve been forced to conclude, because of it’s behavior and movement to the far foreground building, that it can be nothing other than a light spot on the buildings, and if so, the most plausible explanation, in light of all the other evidence, is that it is the light spot of a tracking system, for guidance and timing purposes, unless it was a kid playing with a large mirror at the time..? :-)

    (will take a few minutes to download 1st time. If you have low bandwidth, don’t bother)
    http://www.letsroll911.net/images/plane_hits_south_tower.mov

    Foreground Building – Upper Right (Photo from South Tower – note relative distance)
    http://www.entreriosonline.com.br/usaworldcenter8.jpg

  • hdhntr

    Did we mention about the 9/11 War Games under way that day, which Bush had placed Dick Cheney in charge of months prior to 9/11? Oh yes we did, didn’t we. Even had the testimony of the lawyer for many of the victims families, Stanley Hilton, Bob Dole’s ex Chief of Staff, who also went to college with Paul Wolfowitz and who did his masters thesis, and brainstorming sessions with Wolfy, on how to create an American Presidential dictatorship and project US power in terms of forming a unilateral hegemonic empire, or in a nutshell, how to “take over the world”.

  • hdhntr

    Dick Cheney

    Just testing..

    By George I think I’ve gote it!

  • escapetheMatrix

    Bodies of the pentagon workers were shipped to a morgue in Fort Belvoir, Virgina. From there, they were shipped to a morgue in Dover, Delaware, where DNA analysis and dental records were used to identify the body parts.

    Supposedly, AA77 passengers were identified on the Dover autopsy list, but no Arab hijackers! Now there are questions as to whether flight AA77 even existed on that day, but one can surmise that with the intermediate route through Va., there is an opportunity for substitutions to be made. Here is a detailed article on the results of an FOIA request from a Louisiana doctor:

    Autopsy: No Arabs on Flight 77
    By Thomas R. Olmsted, M.D

    Now Updated: No Arabs on Flight 77: Part II -The Passengers

    I am an ex Naval line officer and a psychiatrist in private practice in New Orleans, a Christian and homeschool dad. It troubled me a great deal that we rushed off to war on the flimsiest of evidence. I considered various ways to provide a smoking gun of who and why Sept 11th happened. Astute observers noticed right away that there were no Arabic sounding names on any of the flight manifests of the planes that “crashed” on that day.

    A list of names on a piece of paper is not evidence, but an autopsy by a pathologist, is. I undertook by FOIA request, to obtain that autopsy list and you are invited to view it below. Guess what? Still no Arabs on the list. It is my opinion that the monsters who planned this crime made a mistake by not including Arabic names on the original list to make the ruse seem more believable.

    When airline disasters occur, airlines will routinely provide a manifest list for anxious families. You may have noticed that even before Sep 11th, that airlines are pretty meticulous about getting an accurate headcount before takeoff. It seems very unlikely to me, that five Arabs sneaked onto a flight with weapons.

    Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology (AFIP), does a miraculous job and identified nearly all the bodies on November 16th 2001.

    The AFIP suggest these numbers; 189 killed, 125 worked at the Pentagon and 64 were “passengers” on the plane. The AA list only had 56 and the list just obtained has 58. They did not explain how they were able to tell “victims” bodies from “hijacker” bodies. In fact, from the beginning NO explanation has been given for the extra five suggested in news reports except that the FBI showed us the pictures to make up the difference, and that makes it so.

    Now, being the trusting sort, I figured that the government would want to quickly dispel any rumors so we could get on with the chore of kicking Osama/Sadaam’s butt (weren’t these originally two different people?). It seemed simple to me. . .produce the names of all the bodies identified by the AFIP and compare it with the publicized list of passengers. So, I sent a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to the AFIP and asked for an expedited response, because we were getting ready to send our boys to war on the pretext that Osama/Sadaam had done the deed. Fourteen months later, a few US soldiers dead, many Iraqi civilians pushing up daisies, and I finally get the list. Believe me that they weren’t a bit happy to give it up, and I really have no idea why they choose now to release it.

    No Arabs wound up on the morgue slab; however, three ADDITIONAL people not listed by American Airline sneaked in. I have seen no explanation for these extras. I did give American the opportunity to “revise” their original list, but they have not responded. The new names are: Robert Ploger, Zandra Ploger, and Sandra Teague. The AFIP claims that the only “passenger” body that they were not able to identify is the toddler, Dana Falkenberg, whose parents and young sister are on the list of those identified. The satanic masterminds behind this caper may be feeling pretty smug about the perfect crime, but they have left a raft of clues tying these unfortunates together. Stay tuned for part two to take a much closer look of the cast of characters on this ill-fated flight.

    http://www.sierratimes.com/03/images/foia/foia-10001.jpg
    http://www.sierratimes.com/03/images/foia/foia-10002.jpg
    http://www.sierratimes.com/03/images/foia/foia-10003.jpg

  • http://members.cox.net/scappero/ScapperoHome.htm Ducati 749

    I am totally with hdhntr on 911 being an inside job. The forensic and physical eveidence is everywhere. just vist my url at http://members.cox.net/scappero/ScapperoHome.htm

    to see some more of this evidence.

    But, in the meantime, here is another letter from Kevin Ryan formerly of Underwriters Labs. UL has the last word on the controlled demolitions aspect of the WTCs as they were the ones that actually certified all of the steel compnents of that building. Read this letter and than I challenge anyone to say that jet fuel (kerosene) was the culprit. That is absolutely laughable. Anyone that still believes the official farse after that must still believe in Santa Clause and the Tooth fairy.

    The collapse of the WTC

    by Kevin Ryan
    Underwriters Laboratories
    Thursday, Nov 11, 2004

    The following letter was sent today by Kevin Ryan of Underwriters Laboratories to Frank Gayle of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST). Underwriters Laboratories is the company that certified the steel components used in the construction of the World Trade Center towers. The information in this letter is of great importance.

    Dr. Gayle,

    Having recently reviewed your team’s report of 10/19/04, I felt the need to contact you directly.

    As I’m sure you know, the company I work for certified the steel components used in the construction of the WTC buildings. In requesting information from both our CEO and Fire Protection business manager last year, I learned that they did not agree on the essential aspects of the story, except for one thing – that the samples we certified met all requirements. They suggested we all be patient and understand that UL was working with your team, and that tests would continue through this year. I’m aware of UL’s attempts to help, including performing tests on models of the floor assemblies. But the results of these tests appear to indicate that the buildings should have easily withstood the thermal stress caused by pools of burning jet fuel.

    There continues to be a number of “experts” making public claims about how the WTC buildings fell. One such person, Dr. Hyman Brown from the WTC construction crew, claims that the buildings collapsed due to fires at 2000F melting the steel (1). He states “What caused the building to collapse is the airplane fuel�burning at 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit. The steel in that five-floor area melts.” Additionally, the newspaper that quotes him says “Just-released preliminary findings from a National Institute of Standards and Technology study of the World Trade Center collapse support Brown�s theory.”

    We know that the steel components were certified to ASTM E119. The time temperature curves for this standard require the samples to be exposed to temperatures around 2000F for several hours. And as we all agree, the steel applied met those specifications. Additionally, I think we can all agree that even un-fireproofed steel will not melt until reaching red-hot temperatures of nearly 3000F (2). Why Dr. Brown would imply that 2000F would melt the high-grade steel used in those buildings makes no sense at all.

    The results of your recently published metallurgical tests seem to clear things up (3), and support your team’s August 2003 update as detailed by the Associated Press (4), in which you were ready to “rule out weak steel as a contributing factor in the collapse.” The evaluation of paint deformation and spheroidization seem very straightforward, and you noted that the samples available were adequate for the investigation. Your comments suggest that the steel was probably exposed to temperatures of only about 500F (250C), which is what one might expect from a thermodynamic analysis of the situation.

    However the summary of the new NIST report seems to ignore your findings, as it suggests that these low temperatures caused exposed bits of the building�s steel core to “soften and buckle.” (5) Additionally this summary states that the perimeter columns softened, yet your findings make clear that “most perimeter panels (157 of 160) saw no temperature above 250C.” To soften steel for the purposes of forging, normally temperatures need to be above1100C (6). However, this new summary report suggests that much lower temperatures were be able to not only soften the steel in a matter of minutes, but lead to rapid structural collapse.

    This story just does not add up. If steel from those buildings did soften or melt, I�m sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind, let alone the briefly burning fires in those towers. That fact should be of great concern to all Americans. Alternatively, the contention that this steel did fail at temperatures around 250C suggests that the majority of deaths on 9/11 were due to a safety-related failure. That suggestion should be of great concern to my company.

    There is no question that the events of 9/11 are the emotional driving force behind the War on Terror. And the issue of the WTC collapse is at the crux of the story of 9/11. My feeling is that your metallurgical tests are at the crux of the crux of the crux. Either you can make sense of what really happened to those buildings, and communicate this quickly, or we all face the same destruction and despair that come from global decisions based on disinformation and �chatter�.

    Thanks for your efforts to determine what happened on that day. You may know that there are a number of other current and former government employees that have risked a great deal to help us to know the truth. I’ve copied one of these people on this message as a sign of respect and support. I believe your work could also be a nucleus of fact around which the truth, and thereby global peace and justice, can grow again. Please do what you can to quickly eliminate the confusion regarding the ability of jet fuel fires to soften or melt structural steel.

    Kevin Ryan

    Site Manager Environmental Health Laboratories A Division of Underwriters Laboratories

    Still not convinced of controlled demolitions??? Check out the seismic data taken that morning which clearly shows two huge spikes in the sesimic record that immediately preceeded each of the towers collapse. You can see a copy of the seismic data at my website shown above.

    Sorry folks, but those seismic signatures are clearly indicative of two very large exposive events and clearly indicate that large subsurface explosions litterally severed the main loadbearing supports in the sub-basement levels of the WTCs… Sorry folks but seismographs don’t lie…

    You people ought to listen to hdhntras clearly he has done his homework, and I suggest that you all do the same. The truth will ultimately prevail.

    Keep it real people! : )

    Duc

  • HW Saxton

    Everyone has to believe in something I suppose. My niece believes in Santa,my Nephew in The Easter Bunny, My grandma in Jehovah and me in the soft creamy white thighs of a certain young lady,Ms Liz Quinones(You don’t know her).Go on believe in this jive.As for me I prefer something real and that looks great in silk thigh highs.

  • hdhntr

    What you are saying is that you would prefer to avoid the historical reality of 9/11 in preference for a known fantasy. Understandable, but weak and IMO, unpatriotic, even cowardly.

  • hdhntr

    But to each his own as they say I guess. Live and let live..

  • Splat

    hdr and irish
    Don’t let them brother you they are in denial. as most americans are. There are those out there that help the lies along and you can spot these people. As Long as you know that there is something wrong with 9/11 there will always be those that will try to persuade yo that what yo see and hear is not that but something else. Its like looking into something you can see more from the out side then you can from the inside.

  • splat

    Now I know why. lol Phill and saxon are Bush supporters or are you two members of hali? Naaa just a question thats all lol

  • irishdrifter

    HW.

    There you go, head back into the sandbox of blissful ignorance.

    Tell me! Do you believe the “official version” is anything less of the fairytale than what we are proposing, or does their fairytale have more validity somehow because it comes from the Charnel House in Washington?

  • splat

    Comment 653 posted by hdhntr on July 7, 2005 02:15 AM:

    But to each his own as they say I guess. Live and let live..

    I agree with you hdhntr if it was that simple but there are those that won’t. They will take everything you have just because they can wether they need it or not, just to keep you from having it.

  • irishdrifter

    Oh oh. Here we go again.

    London has just been bombed. While the smell of cordite was still fresh in the air the BBC were blaming the fictitious al Quida.

    Blair used the T word 5 times in a 2 minute speech. “They hate our values and our freedoms” yadda, blather. Sound familiar?

  • Nancy

    It would seem BushCo was feeling too pressured by the Plame situtation, so to avert interest by the gnat’s-attention-span press, Bush has had Lond