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We Do Not Forget – We Do Not Forgive: These are Luxuries No Jew Has

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In March 1933, Adolf Hitler took power in Germany after a rigged election where his thugs had burned down the German parliament building and had blamed the main opposition, the Communists, in order to gain more votes. He instituted a dictatorship in Germany and tried to bring his country out of the economic depression that the collapsed stock market in New York in 1929 had led to.

Dictatorships occur from time to time in the history of all peoples — had Hitler been primarily interested in using a dictatorship to bring Germany out of an economic depression, I suppose he would be a national hero today. He succeeded in bringing his adopted homeland to a certain level of prosperity, as well as restoring Germans’ pride in being Germans.

But, this was not Hitler’s only goal. He had a vision for the world, one where Germans, styled Aryans, would rule the planet and all other peoples would be subject to their rule. And in his vision, certain people were to die. Gypsies, now called Roma, were regarded as a criminal class to be executed. Homosexuals were regarded as deviants to be executed. People who in one way or another did not come up to snuff were to be executed. But the most important group of people who had to die were Jews. In the eyes of the racist Nazi philosophy and religion, Jews were a race who stood against all that was good, and had to be exterminated, the way one exterminates cockroaches. Hitler was very clear about all this. His book Mein Kampf (My Struggle) detailed what he felt had to be done.

He proceeded to have laws passed that progressively impoverished the relatively prosperous German Jewish population. At first Jews thought they could ride it out in Germany, that this was just another of the many many Jew-hating Germans to rule Germany — that this too would pass. But by 1935, they realized the problem was not going away, and this man and his party were intent on destroying their community. They began to flee Germany, seeking desperately first to preserve their money, and then when they realized the mortal threat, their lives. Neighboring European nations began to see more and more German Jewish refugees and decided, at a conference at Evian, France, that the doors to these refugees would largely be closed.

At last, German Jews, desperate for a place to run to, began to run to Mandate Palestine; a few short years previous they never would have considered deserting the civilized Berlin for Mandate Palestine. But now they were happy to get out. Thousands of Jews settled in Tel Aviv and Haifa, giving a distinct flavor to the buildings they had erected.

However, while the Jewish Agency in Mandate Palestine was welcoming the new arrivals, happy to see the Jewish population of the country grow, Arabs under the leadership of the so-called “mufti of Jerusalem”, Amin el-Husseini, first protested against the new arrivals, and then began a violent rebellion. From 1936 to 1939, the Arabs ran an intifada against the British and the Jews both, killing Jewish civilians and British soldiers and functionaries. The Jewish Agency, which had formed a territorial defense force to protect the kibbutzím, the collective farms, from Arab attack, found the British seeking to “legalize” this territorial defense force, known as the haganá, so that they could have police and soldiers to defend against Arab terrorism. Today, in Beit Agrón in Jerusalem, you can see photos of Jewish kids from the haganá training to serve as police for the British.

This was not the only British response. They called together a commission from the House of Lords, popularly known as the “Peel Commission” to investigate the situation and in 1937 it met and came up with a solution – partitioning the Mandate into Jewish, Arab and British cantons. This solution was rejected by the cabinet in London, and a decision was made instead to restrict and to finally end Jewish immigration to the Mandate. According to the terms of the “White Paper” of 1939, each year 15,000 Jews would be allowed into Mandate Palestine for a period of five years. Afterwards, Jewish immigration to the Jewish homeland was to stop entirely. One can go into long histrionics about how this was a betrayal of the British Mandate – a Mandate of the League of Nations to erect a Jewish National Home – indeed, the British did betray their Mandate. But that is not for this article.

Between 1936 and 1939, at the same time the Arabs were rioting and committing terrorist acts in Mandate Palestine, the German state had re-occupied the Saarland, had annexed Austria, and had occupied and annexed Czechoslovakia, along with all the Jews that lived there. By 1939, thousands of Jews were extremely anxious to get into Mandate Palestine, and when the British effectively shut the door to Jewish immigration to the Jewish homeland, the vast majority of these Jews had nowhere to go. This inconvenienced the Nazis, whose original plan was to expel Jews to one central place (after robbing them of all their property), the Land of Israel, and exterminate them there. This is why when the Nazis took over Austria, they gave quite a number of Jews one way tickets to Mandate Palestine. I know a tailor in Jerusalem who received such a ticket from the SS.

Amin el-Husseini, originally a sort of protogé of the British, decided in 1939 that he had enough of them and fled, eventually turning up in Berlin, trying to curry favor with his spiritual hero, Hitler. He tried to make himself useful to Hitler, organizing a pro-Nazi coup d’état in Iraq in 1940, and after the British suppressed that, el-Husseini trained Albanian Moslems in a division of the German army. In addition, he lobbied Hitler hard to exterminate the Jews in Europe, not in the Land of Israel. This was a major factor in the construction of death camps in Poland, rather than mere slave-labor camps to hold Ukrainians, Russians, Poles and other Slavs. We can reasonably state that the death camps arose from, among other things, an Arab desire not to see dead Jews littering up what they felt was to be their homeland. It is worthwhile to note that whatever excuses Egyptians and other Arabs gave later, they too, were fans and admirers of Hitler. This is especially true of Gamal Abd-el Nasser and Anwar el-Sadat. Amin el-Husseini, for his part, gave Hitler an honorary nom de guerre, Abu Amar. Yasser Arafat, the protogé of el-Husseini, took that exact nom de guerre, Abu Amar for himself, indicating to his own followers that he would follow in Hitler’s footsteps — and exterminate the Jews.

In spite of this Arab betrayal, the British were true to the Arabs, and kept the doors of Mandate Palestine closed — or as closed as they could manage. It is not that Tommy Atkins actually shut the gas chamber door and tossed in the Zyklon B himself — but by shutting the door to the best refuge that millions of Jews could get to, the British condemned many hundreds of thousands, if not millions of Jews, to a terrible death. If it were merely the British, one could say, well, the British don’t count for much in the world, dependent as they are on the Americans. So, let’s look at the Americans.

The Americans went to war because the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor in the Territory of Hawaii, and because the Germans declared a state of war between the United States and Germany. The Americans had already effectively allied themselves with the British and when they finally got war production up to a sufficient degree, they supplied the British with armaments and flew huge air-raids over Germany and eventually Poland. They fire-bombed German cities, leaving them in ruins, and eventually invaded France via Normandy. It was after the invasion of Normandy that the Germans could have deduced that the Americans had broken their Enigma Code (protecting this secret — that they had broken the German Enigma Code — was the excuse the USAAF used for not bombing the concentration camps). But the bottom line is that neither the British nor the Americans ever bombed a concentration camp, or even the train tracks to concentration camps. So between the British locking Jews out of Mandate Palestine, and Americans and British refusing to bomb either the concentration camps or the track leading to them, the Nazis had a relatively free hand in their determined attempt to exterminate my people.

So, in other words, for me now, it is not a matter of merely visiting Yad Vashem or another such memorial and seeing thousands of childrens’ shoes and condemning the Nazis who snuffed out the lives of these children. There are also the Americans and the British, who by their omissions in refusing to bomb concentration camps, and by the commission of preventing Jews from reaching the best possible refuge, who contributed mightily to those deaths. The term “un-indicted co-conspirator” almost fits.

So in addition to remembering those who were heroes in attempting to save Jews’ lives, the Schindlers and the Wallensteins, we must also remember those who by their actions contributed to their deaths.

Forgetting or forgiving is not a luxury the Jewish nation can afford when one third of its members have been exterminated. So, we cannot forget or forgive the Nazis; we cannot forget or forgive the millions of European collaborators in Nazi-occupied Europe; we cannot forget or forgive those who shut the doors of Mandate Palestine and who thereby condemned untold numbers of Jews to the most horrible of deaths; we cannot forget or forgive those who refused to bomb the Nazi death camps, or even the tracks leading to those death camps. Finally, we cannot forget or forgive the Arabs who lobbied so hard for the building of death camps in Europe – they are the true inheritors of the satanic Nazi cult today, and they carry it on today in cooperation with the new Jew-haters of Europe, Canada and America.

We cannot forget — we cannot forgive; and we Jews must do all we can to see to it that our enemies who rise against us today are killed so that we may live.

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About Ruvy

Hi!! Thanks for coming to my article! I was raised in Brooklyn, was graduated from the City University of New York in 1978 with a BA in political science and public administration there. I lived in Minnesota for a number of years. There I managed restaurants and wrote stories. We moved with our children family to Israel where we now reside. My work can be found at Ruvy's Roost, Jewish Indy,, and on Facebook under my full name, Reuven Kossover
  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    So Ruvy, your argument is that as the allied armies were advancing towards Germany to eventually free the Jews in the camps, it would have been better to bomb the camps and kill those hundreds of thousands of Jews immediately, rather than roll the dice and hope some were still alive when allied forces came to liberate them?

    Ok…

    Dave

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet

    Dave, you’re talking like we had laser quided bombs back then.

  • James

    Hitler DID bring Germany out of the depression as promised, a full FOUR YEARS before the zionist controlled governments of Britain and the U.S.!!! It is TRUTH beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Hitler was fighting AGAINST this new world order monster that WE are faced with today!!! Our governments are now INFESTED with trotskyites and marxists who are inches away from worldwide communist tyranny VICTORY!!! No more FREEDOM! No more PRIVATE PROPERTY! No more Human RIGHTS!!! COMPLETE CONTROL of your every move is what they have in store for you! ENJOY!!!

  • Jordan Richardson

    Apparently RANDOM caps lock is ALSO what they have in STORE for YOU!

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet

    Now what did I do with that pink triangle?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    James (at comment #4),

    Custard heads like you are part of the reason that Jews like me cannot afford to forgive or forget the murderous excesses of the allegedly civilized Germans, and the callous disregard for humanity displayed by their enemies at the time, the Americans and the British.

    It is not for me to say now, 66 years after the fact, that the fire-bombings of German cities by the Americans were wrong. They were fighting a war for survival against an enemy determined to subdue, if not destroy them. But that the Americans and British both refused to bomb the railway tracks leading to the concentration camps, the outskirts of these death camps so as to make them inoperable and enable the escape of the the more voluble of the prisoners held there was and remains UNFORGIVABLE.

    Everyone in the vicinity of the ovens used to burn Jews alive knew of their existence – the periodic falling of human ashes all over Eastern Europe testified loudly as to what was going on. Once the Americans were cracking “Fortress Europa” after D-Day, they could have done something about this evil they knew the Nazis were perpetrating. That they refused to, and that they refuse to work for a secure Jewish state today, even after knowing all this, and even after knowing all that the Jewish people have gone through – is UNFORGIVABLE. That the British shut the doors of the most available and best refuge of the Jewish people is also UNFORGIVABLE.

    In effect, the Americans and the British were holding the Nazis coats for them while they committed the evils they did.

    May G-d judge them all and pour out His wrath upon them for their committing murder, and for their standing by with folded arms while murder was being committed!

    Had Hitler merely sought to bring Germany out of economic depression, he would have been a national hero. Indeed he would have been a model for the incompetents in the rest of the world. But Hitler’s primary goal, as witnessed by the desperate efforts to murder off Jews no matter how bad the military situation, made him the symbol of satanic evil throughout the world. That Arabs (and you) admire this symbol of satanic evil speaks more of them and you than you realize.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    I don’t know a whole lot of Arabs (or Jews for that matter) but in my whole life I’ve never met a single one who even mentioned Hitler, let alone expressed any admiration. I guess there may be some that do but, like yours, their views are in the eccentric minority.

    Hey, Ruvy, instead of dwelling on the past so pointlessly as you do, what non death or destruction related ideas do you have for a better future? Hopefully something a bit more coherent and constructive than hanging on in there ’til your god returns in twenty years?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Chris,

    MY next two articles for the politics section will be on topics that unfortunately deal with death and war. But that does not mean that there is not a brighter side to the world, nor a better one.

    If you’d like to peruse and perhaps report yourself, here or elsewhere, Israel remains a leading power both in technology and medicine. This site, Eye 2 Israel, will give you a broad overview of the contributions our scientists and technologists have made in bettering the world.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    And will there be anything new in those articles or just more of the same you usually come up with?

    I am already well aware of the significant scale of scientific and technological contributions being made in Israel, Ruvy. It is a trend to be found in the majority of countries, even the most faithist, because our future and our survival depends on it.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    bitter rants about events in the past (have you forgiven the Romans yet?) that nobody can ever change….

    lo nishkáH v’lo nisláH “We will not forget and we will not forgive”

    This phrase is used in modern Israel to refer to Gush Qatif and the unnecessary and illegal expulsion of Jewish residents from Jewish Gaza in 2005, and the destruction of their lives by the Israeli “government”. It applies, however, to all of our enemies in the past, save those who have honestly attempted to make restitution or reparations to us – in other words, nobody.

    Now let’s look at the example you gave above, the Roman savages, and consider a point or two. Usually, if someone is to be forgiven for an evil act, he is forgiven because he has rendered an apology of some kind or another. The Romans, and their immediate Christian and Byzantine successors, pursued an unsystematic program of genocide against the Judeans over a period of 600 years, a genocide which forced most of them (who survived, that is) to leave for other parts of the world. One Judean that you may be familiar with was a German Jew named Rosenberg. But for the Roman/Christian genocide against Judeans, he never would have been in Germany. One of my grandparents also came from Germany, also named Rosenberg. And but for the Roman/Christian genocide against Judeans, he never would have been in Germany either.

    Now, no more Romans are running around spouting lines from Ovid or praising the heroism of the Scipios. So the closest we can get to them are the Byzantine Christians, who have evolved into the Orthodox Christians of Eastern Europe – and the Vatican. The pope’s basic title is “Bishop of Rome”. For a short time, the bishops of Rome were like the Roman emperors themselves.

    So, if we seek to look for an apology from the Romans, it must come from the mouth of the Vatican or the mouths of the metropolitans of the assorted Orthodox churches. Has such an apology ever come from the Vatican or the metropolitans of the Orthodox churches for the genocide by the Romans and their successors the Byzantines and Christians?

    Chris, if you can find such an apology, please let me know! I now of no such apology, no such expression of regret, remorse, or any indication by these individuals or institutions of the terrible harm they have done to MY people. So, where does forgiveness arise? Why should they be forgiven? On whose say-so? Yours? The Christians who think that “I believe in Jesus” is all they need to do and all the shit that they and their ancestors have done is wiped away clean?

    It’s not an issue of holding onto hate, it is a matter of demanding justice. Similarly, American Indians can demand justice of those who managed to exterminate them – the whites; black Americans can demand reparations of those who enslaved them – fellow blacks in Africa, Arabs and whites; Arabs who have been dispossessed by their own leaders false promises in 1948…. The list goes on and on through history, not merely with my own people demanding justice, but also with wrongs committed by one people against another weighed and measured in a Cosmic Scale of Justice stretching back through Time. And it goes all the way back through Time. That is the real meaning “nothing is lost in the sight of G-d”.

    That is another angle of Redemption and Divine Judgment, one that is barely mentioned even by our own sages, who, too often concern themselves only with Jews. Whether you believe this or not, agree or not, think it is rational or not is of no interest to me. For me to attempt to convince you of any of this would be idiotic, so it’s not even worth trying. But, it’s there, and at the appropriate time, Justice will be served.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Ruvy,

    Knowing, then, that justice will be served, I guess I just have one small question:

    Why so angry?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Why so angry

    Jordan, if someone cuts your arm off, knowing that his leg will be cut off in punishment does not make the pain of the arm cut off any less. Even though vengeance is best served cold, it usually does not satisfy.

    But the pain from the damage done does not decrease, except over time. And in an unredeemed world, one cannot afford to forget or to forgive. The Nazi genocide of my people is just one of several we have been subjected to over time, a fact that too many Jews conveniently forget.

    In a Redeemed world, we will all see Justice served – and it will not be a pleasant experience at all – for any of us.

  • Jordan Richardson

    I’d argue that many Jews choose to “forget” the tragedies of their ancestors because they prefer to honour their memories in a different way than you choose. Instead of moping through life shaking ones fist, figuratively or literally, at everything that appears to not side with them directly, they choose happiness, joy, passion, and the like. There’s no fault in that.

    You choose a life of anger, vengeance, and so forth, all the while acknowledging that it is God who will have that which you seek. At best, all of your vengeance seems wasted. At worst, your entire life seems as such. At least that’s how you come across with virtually every single word you say.

    Quite frankly, I feel sorry for you.

  • Jordan Richardson

    By the way, the analogy of one’s arm being cut off doesn’t really fly. Physical pain via direction action doesn’t really compare to your lifestyle of vengeance by proxy.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Jordan,

    Judaism is known as dat zékher – a religion of remembrance. Remembering (at least for us) is painful. Choosing pain is counter-intuitive. One of the issues of Redemption is to bring an end to the dat zékher, and all the pain it entails, and to inaugurate a dat ma’aséh, a religion of doing.

    So, there will be a lot less pain in a world of far greater happiness.

    As for me, I do not “shake my fist” at the world in any sense of the word. This is a useless gesture. Vengeance, as I pointed out, usually does not satisfy.

    But it falls to me to remember and to remind others to remember – not because I want to suffer pain, but because remembering also reminds one of the essential lessons of history, which when forgotten, bring disaster upon he who forgets.

    Sometimes these lessons are brutal lessons. Most folks do not have trouble with the easy lessons – it’s the brutal lessons that make remembering so hard and so unpleasant. And sometimes the brutal lessons need to be applied to one’s enemies.

    People who do not have the guts to apply firmness in dealing with enemies usually find that as time goes on, the solutions to righting the wrongs get more and more difficult, and more and more painful to apply – and these gutless wonders shy away even more from their application. So the situation gets worse and worse until radical solutions must be employed. That is what has happened in the last 42 years or so with respect to Israel. Fearing to apply firmness in the very beginning of liberating our land from foreign control (1967) has led to a deteriorating situation that gets worse and worse monthly.

    The issue has never been seeking peace it has always been securing victory. The Israeli government has wasted its efforts seeking peace from those who wish to butcher us (cows asking butchers not to slaughter them?) – when we should have made clear that if the defeated Arab enemy did not come to the table on their knees begging for peace – they would be slaughtered. That is the way of the world, and our failure to realize this and apply the brutal lessons of history is costing us terribly today.

    And now, I must leave you for the Sabbath. Catch you on the other side of the weekend.

    Shabbat Shalom
    Ruvy

  • http://www.joannehuspek.wordpress.com Joanne Huspek

    Thanks Ruvy.

    I don’t see your stand as being out of the ordinary, after all, you’ve got the background that calls for a certain amount of caution.

    The one thing that impresses me about the Middle East (all sides, Christian, Jews and Muslims) is the fervor of the feeling to the point where the loss of life furthers the cause.

    That’s why in the case of terrorists, there’s no talking to them to try to change their position.

  • http://whalertly.blogspot.com Robert M. Barga

    you know Ruvy, you make me sad to be a jew. You sit here, bitch about things that are far in the past, and then have the nerve to continue bitching when OUR PEOPLE are violating other’s right. Israel has no right to a secure state if she herself can not keep it, just like the Arabs, the Christians, the Pegans, etc. don’t

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well expressed, Ruvy, at least in terms of explaining your position. I’d still have to say it’s a static view of the world. I’m not saying now that the progress we’ve made – especially in terms of human nature – has been spectacular. But there is also no question that some of the prejudices of old and other abhorrent practices – and no, I need not name them – are well past us as we are moving forward, however slowly. Life and consciousness are expanding; what was beyond tolerance in the old days is now commonplace and hardly raises an eyebrow. But your view doesn’t admit any of that. There’s always the enemy and there’s no changing it.

    I don’t know whether this thinking is rooted in your personal views or in your theology; it it’s the latter, I would question the theology. I know of course that you cannot allow yourself to do that, and so, IMO, you are stuck in that the world hasn’t changed for you since the Jews were enslaved by the Pharaoh. And the only redemption will come about with the age of the Messiah, who will then set you free once and for all.

    Again, I think I understand where you’re coming from, but it is a “closed-world” view – however much you believe it is grounded in your theology.

    All told, not a very happy tale, I’d say, whereby the whole history of suffering, enslavement, and looking for and finding the Promised Land, ever-present warfare, can only find its final resolution is some cataclysmic and apocalyptic event, in the Final Redemption.

    See, I too happen to believe we’ll never achieve a perfect world, but your theology seems to commit you to a mentality of victimhood and endless suffering. That’s no life for me.

  • STM

    Ruvy, one small point. It was the British who firebombed German cities into piles of rubble with massive armadas of night bombers, not Americans, who preferred to go instead for the Nazi war industries. But between them, day and night for three years, they did a pretty good job of levelling the place.

    The British felt far less bad about killing German civilians, possibly because the Germans had done it to them first.

    To that end, the Nazis sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind.

    Of course, I’ll just add here that the British and Americans and their allies were fighting against Nazi tyranny and at the time did what they felt they had to do, which was to destroy Germany completely. But while they were smashing German cities, did you expect them to slaughter the occupants of the camps too? To waht end?

    Were the Nazis not tyrants – with everything that went with it – it’s unlikely that these two great democracies would ever have gone to war in the first place. The people of Britain and America were quite happy living peaceful. At the time, they weren’t in the business of persecuting jews, either – despite what you say.

    Yes, they were – reluctantly but determinedly – fighting Nazi tyranny. Just in case that small point eludes you.

    Also, you do realise that a white paper is an idea, rather than a piece of legislation? You know as well as I do that the stream of migration to Palestine couldn’t become a flood. It would have been great for the British slogging it out in North Africa with the Germans to also have to deal with an uprising of Arabs like a dagger behind their backs in Palestine. The strategic risk, especially in terms of having enough oil from the mid-east to fight the Nazis, would have been too great. Desperate times demand desperate measures.

    The other side of the coin is the British were the first to raise and train a full brigade of Jewish troops, from Palestine, who were made part of the British amy and sent into action in Italy.

    So they were actually the first to arm and raise a serious, well-trained Jewish army, if you like, to fight against Nazisim.

    Another small point. You forgot to mention the large numbers of jewish refugees who escaped to England just prior to the war.

    And the kinder transports … the rescue by the British and the transport to England of as many Jewish children as they could get out of occupied Europe prior to the start of the war proper.

    Also … another small point. You know as well as I do that prior to the Nazi onslaught, not that many jews wanted to leave their homes, uproot their whole lives and head off to an uncertain future in Palestine.

    You know, it’s the omission of so many small points that always undoes your arguments.

    I’d be blaming the Nazis lock, stock and barrel. Without them, none of these issues would have arisen in the first place.

    Just thought I’d add a bit of balance there Ruve, ’cause it sure as hell won’t come won’t from you.

    Of course, why should I be surprised. I’ve heard it all before.

    And to the fool who made the stupid comments about Hitler being right, if you had half a brain you’d be dangerous so at least we can be thankful in some small way. But give yourself an uppercut anyway, along with Ruvy. A really good one.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Stan has it about right with regard to the (non-existent) Allied persecution of Jews. Anti-semitism was not much of a factor, if at all, in war policy decisions. It would have been a bit like being savaged by a bear and worrying about his breath.

    As in any war, a government’s primary responsibility is to defend its own people – which in the case of Britain and America included their own not insignificant Jewish populations. Protecting others outside your borders, while an ideal, is not always possible or expedient. Any military decision is going to hurt someone.

    To add a little vignette, my grandparents actually took in three Jewish kids from Tottenham as evacuees during the war. They later emigrated to the US and my aunt is still in touch with them.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Very good points, STM; knowledge of history coming in handy. I don’t know much about anti-semitisim in America, but to tell the truth – I haven’t heard much at all, if anything, coming out of Britain.

    A side point, perhaps: Ruvy’s militant stance does help to evoke such responses and bring out the nuts.

  • Baronius

    Most of the death camps were in Eastern Europe, specifically Poland, because that’s where most of the Jews were. There were a couple of camps to the west of Germany. Most of the German camps were located in what became East Germany. Dachau was the only sizable camp which was liberated by the Americans, I believe, and Bergen-Belsen the only one by the Brits. The rest were on the Eastern front.

    History has shown that leaving the liberation of Eastern Europe to Russia only brought about more decades of oppression. It was a bad idea. We shouldn’t have waited to enter Berlin at the same time as the Soviets. Frankly, if we had the resources, Patton’s idea of sweeping across Europe through the Russians had merit.

    My point is, the US, French, and British military weren’t operating to the east of Berlin. Their bombers were focusing on the industrial areas of Cologne and the Ruhr Valley. Whatever happened on the other side of the continent was Russia’s to stop. Russia took their time, though, especially in Poland, where they gave the Nazis a few extra weeks to finish off Warsaw. Russia had few planes and no interest in saving the Jews.

    If you’re going to allocate blame for an evil act, the most goes to those who performed it. Some blame falls on those who were most able to stop it, but didn’t. Last are those who were least able to stop it. The Brits and Yanks didn’t have to spank Dresden the way they did, and they could have used the last weeks of the European Theater more effectively, but that’s the extent of their blame.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    I don’t know much about anti-semitisim in America, but to tell the truth – I haven’t heard much at all, if anything, coming out of Britain.

    To put it cynically, Roger, it’s loooong out of fashion. World War 2 made it decidedly ‘not cool’ to rip on the Jews. Or to be more charitable, the Holocaust brought it firmly home to the popular psyche as to what a horrible thing it was.

    It’s very rare nowadays to meet anyone who’s actively anti-Semitic. I can’t recall coming across such a person in at least 20 years.

    I haven’t heard much at all, if anything, coming out of Britain.

    The only place I ever hear it in Britain is at a football stadium when Tottenham Hotspur are playing. The Tottenham area of north London has a large Jewish community (the team’s owners are also Jewish) and certain moronic ‘fans’ of the other team will use that as a way to insult their opponents. Even so, it’s not dyed-in-the-wool anti-Semitism, it’s just stupidity.

    Ruvy’s militant stance does help to evoke such responses and bring out the nuts.

    Know thy enemy.

  • The Obnoxious American

    It’s very rare nowadays to meet anyone who’s actively anti-Semitic. I can’t recall coming across such a person in at least 20 years.

    You’re kidding right doc?

    Let me ask the question a different way – how many people have you met recently that are actively racist against anyone? Right, they don’t usually share that information freely.

    I know, us jews are all rich and smart and weild lots and lots of power. I heard all about that when I was growing up in Queens, electricity turned off because we didn’t have cash to pay the bill. Fact is, even with the millions of dollars us jews are all are born with, and the guarunteed jobs in high places of every government, media institution and lawyers office, even with all of that, we still face prejudice. I get it on a near daily basis, by accident mostly, because I think people don’t even realize that I am jewish.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Just in case a 2002 link isn’t good enough for some here, here is something from Feb of this year on CNN:

    Anti-Semitic attacks rising, UK watchdog reports

    “Watchdog says January saw highest ever number of anti-Semitic attacks in UK”

    “Police: More Jewish attack victims than Muslims despite bigger Muslim population”

    Oh, I know, those who choose not to see anti semitism will say how I’m all wrong (as well as my cited references) and once again suggest that it is the fault of attitudes held by the likes of Ruvy and myself that are at fault for the rise of anti semitism, or as one person here said, “bringing out the nuts.” I don’t blame the victim for rape or other forms of prejudice, would be nice if others had the same respect for Judaism.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Even in NYC, OA. That surprises me. I lived there for over sixteen years, and rarely if ever have I heard anti-Semitic slurs even in the lowest of places. Which is not to negate your experience. I’m sure it still exists, just like any kind of prejudice. It takes time to stump out.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Yes, especially on the fringes. Basically, because I don’t look jewish and don’t wear my private details on my sleeve (and this is true for everything about me, not just my religion), on a week by week basis I face a situation where I have to decide whether or not to get into a fight over the religion that I was born into.

    Growing up (in NYC btw), I knew many elders who had serial numbers tatooed on their arms. And I saw the films of the piles of jewish glasses, train cars, etc. Knowing this at a young age affects you. In some ways you want to be more aggressive and you are bracing for the fight. In other ways it makes you want to curl up and hide who you are.

    It is truly amazing to grow up in an American city, look like a caucasian, and hear some of the things that come out of people’s mouths. Like, Jewish isn’t a race, yet Jews this and Jews that. I don’t really believe that Jews are a seperate race, but these things are said as if we are not even held in high enough esteem to be allowed to claim prejudice because we are white.

    The most hilarious thing about it is when people claim I am racist, such as with my differences with President Obama. I have been called racist in various threads here on BlogCritics because of my differences with Obama’s platform. Yet more than any non-Jewish white person, I understand prejudice. I don’t use the term “gyped” as in “You got gyped” because that is a racial slur against those with a gypsy heritage. Just like when people say, “don’t Jew out like that man” or whatever else. I am not claiming to understand the full plight of my African American countrymen, but I understand a lot of what they have and continue to have to deal with. My beef with Obama has always been on issues of policy.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, yes, OM. The attitudes by such as Ruvy don’t exactly serve well the Jewish cause but tend to add fuel to the fire. There is a certain arrogance there which, how shall I say? defines the target.

    Chris was right in saying that Ruvy’s views aren’t that different from those of the terrorists he despises. They’re are the polar opposites, that’s all.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Or perhaps he is just affected so by the hatred that this is his response. As I said, knowing what we know affects us. Growing up with our elders, people you care about, and seeing first hand the serial numbers tatooed on their arms, understanding why those numbers were tatooed on them, and worse, knowing that it can happen again, it impacts how you see the world.

    How many times have we heard that we must understand the issues that caused terrorists to attack us on 9/11, rather than completely blame the Taliban and Al Qaeda?

    Yet the same is never said about Jews who rather than go willingly to the slaughter stand and fight for who they are, and take an aggressive stance than a passive one. Ask how did Ruvy get this way? Is is because he is crazy? Or perhaps he is just being realistic given the environment around him. As a fellow Jews, I’d have to say realistic.

  • Clavos

    Doc #23:

    Anti-Jewish sentiment long survived WW II in this country.

    Well after the war was over, my parents, who were born and raised in NYC, often visited my mother’s family there while on vacation from Mexico.

    My parents’ best friends back then (and until all died many years later) were a Jewish couple. When they all went out together (mostly in the forties and fifties), the number of places accessible to them were much reduced because of anti-Jewish discriminatory practices. Such places included private clubs of which my parents were members, and a number of public restaurants, nightclubs, etc.

    As recently as the late fifties, Jews were discriminated against by real estate agents in the Ft. Lauderdale, Florida and rarely were able to buy or rent housing in that city.

    At this moment, I’m sitting in the surgical waiting room of a hospital in Miami Beach waiting for my wife to come out of a minor procedure. The hospital, named Mt. Sinai, was founded in the fifties by a group of Jewish physicians who were being refused privileges in gentile hospitals.

    Anti-Jewish sentiment is still very much alive and well in this country: as OA says above, most people nowadays won’t openly admit to any kind of prejudice, but it’s still there.

    Another example: at least in this area (South Florida) Jewish Temples are regularly desecrated with anti-Jewish graffiti.

  • The Obnoxious American

    One last comment here, a recent phenom in NYC (as well as the other coast) is the “self hating jew”. These are the types that protest Israel for defending herself against Palestinian terrorists. These poor poor folks. To be honest, I can’t stand them.

    If you are a Jew and you’ve protested Israel, you are either so damaged from anti-semitism that you are in a permanent passive crouch, an extreme form of stockholm syndrom, or you are totally ignorant. In either case, these Jews should be fully ashamed of themselves. I just can’t understand it.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Fair enough, your last comment. I can’t even begin to think what it would be like if I were an African-American and the kind of prejudice I’d face. I’m certain it would be traumatic and it would change me beyond recognition – how, I’m not able to say. But I’m certain I couldn’t be the person I am today. Better perhaps, but probably worse.

    I must count myself fortunate to have been spared this. But I am not, therefore, unsympathetic with Ruvy’s point of view.

    The odd thing, I lived in Israel for two years, in the sixties. And the locals, the Sabras, didn’t carry any chip on their shoulder. They all were as proud and untarnished as any human. So how did it happen that these attitudes were allowed to degenerate (as in Ruvy’s case, e.g.) to the level of victimhood. That’s the tragedy. It should have never come to that.

  • Clavos

    Another point:

    I believe that ant-Jewish prejudice worldwide, while temporarily suppressed from being open (except, of course in the Arabian Peninsula), is still so strong, that, were it to become no longer unfashionable again, new purges might result.

    In fact, I believe that prejudice against Jews far surpasses any other racial prejudice: it has literally lasted for millenia and has been practiced at one time or another, everywhere in the world.

    Even here in the USA.

    If I were Jewish, I would never let my guard down.

  • The Obnoxious American

    “I’m certain it would be traumatic and it would change me beyond recognition – how, I’m not able to say.”

    You might resemble Ruvy in some ways, or worse yet(GASP) me :>

    But if you want a sense for what prejudice is like I bet you can get a flavor for it in Iran or Saudi Arabia. But for your personal safety, I wouldn’t recommend that. Thanks Roger for being empathic, it’s an uncommon quality, especially here.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, I never have, Clavos – even though I’m only in part. Some sixth sense tells me it would not be the wise thing to do.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I was born in Poland, OA, where anti-Semitism was (if not still is) at its strongest. Consequently, I have since put it out of my mind. It’s just images to me, nothing more.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Clavos,

    I tend to agree, though I won’t be so self important to say that the prejudice my people face is worse than anyone elses.

    But in terms of letting the guard down, it’s true. I can’t tell you how many times I meet someone new, get to know them and become friendly, only weeks or months later for them to drop an anti semetic comment. And it’s at that moment that I now have to decide what to do. Was the comment made in jest or does it represent something worse. Do I fight the person or save myself for a more important battle.

    When I first moved into this neighborhood, we became friendly with a gay couple next door. Two very nice guys, a little crazy but not any crazier than we. I never really talked religion or anything like that but one day, one of the neighbors was talking about a mutual acqaintance and said, “he’s not too cheap for a Jew.” Sad and depressing, because I like these people but I can’t ever see them again in the same light. And I can’t kick the guys ass because he lives next door. Not to mention that as gay people, they must understand prejudice just as much as I do. How could they do this.

    It’s not the only neighbor in this location where it’s happened. You start to feel this bunker mentality.

    My wife is christian, and she was brought up to believe that as a child of Jesus, she too is Jewish (I respect her faith and have never asked her to convert, nor will I). She’s been a witness to various situations such as this. I can only imagine what she sometimes thinks about it. Whether she regrets marrying a Jew because of the hatred. I know she doesn’t. She is a good woman and loves me. But why should she have to bear this burden? It’s just not right.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Roger,

    So your Polish? I got a whole lot of Polish jokes…Just kidding! See you’re no newbie to prejudice.

    My brother in law is half Polish, and when I first met him he made a bunch of Polish jokes which to be honest made me uncomfortable. Then I realized he is Polish. He’s a cool guy.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    You’re kidding right doc?

    No, not at all, Obnox, although I haven’t lived in the UK since 2001 so I don’t have my finger on the pulse so much. I will observe that a poll which asks leading questions like that is almost bound to show a higher level of prejudice against Jews. All I can say is that I haven’t observed it. Not among my friends or work colleagues, and my parents certainly never expressed anti-Jewish sentiments – whether that was because of the family history, though, I couldn’t say.

    As for racism, yes, I do know a number of people who are actively racist. There are one or two of them on this website.

    But Clavos is right that anti-Semitism is a peculiarly resilient form of prejudice. I suppose it goes to show how most humans don’t exactly shine in the field of critical thinking. The classic excuse in the western world for persecuting Jews, of course, is that ‘they’ supposedly sold Our Savior down the river. It never seems to occur to such folks that if ‘they’ hadn’t done so, there wouldn’t have been a Savior in the first place…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, in my personal experience, I had to get to the point of getting to know the woman real good to admit I have some Jewish blood in me. And by that time, it was all OK. Of late, however, I’m less careful of “being so tainted,” because I’ve grown in self-confidence. So as far as I am concerned, I’m saying to myself “fuck it.”

    In short, I can deal now with this bullshit.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Such jokes, IMO, OA, are mostly an attempt at PC before PC became de rigueur. Not that I mind them, but all I see in them is one-upmanship, a rather cheap if not cowardly way to say what you really think. Part of our democratic culture, I guess, and mixing with hoi poloi.

    So you’ve got to give as well as receive.

  • Baronius

    OA, I love that bullet point, “Police: More Jewish attack victims than Muslims despite bigger Muslim population”. Is the author naive or blind?

  • The Obnoxious American

    Roger, true enough. And please don’t think I am some humorless slob. I laugh at Jewish jokes, I laugh at jokes about George Bush. As much as I hated seeing Sarah Palin lampooned on SNL, I loved the humor of the show and eagerly watched week after week. I appreciated their bi-partisan approach to humor. Sadly, SNL’s bi-partisanship seemed to die that one episode with Dan Ackroyd and has been missing ever since.

    And David Letterman, to date, has not followed his “Great Moments in Presidential Speeches” with an Obama version, even though there has been plenty of material for that. It’s cool when humor goes both ways, not so cool when it doesn’t.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    I agree, Obnox. There’s a motherlode of humorous material to be mined from the Obama administration, whether you support his policies or not.

    I also laugh at Jewish jokes. Not anti-Semitic jokes, you understand, but the ones Jews tell about themselves. Jewish humor is among the richest in the world.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, the main thing, OA, is to be able to rise above bitterness. If anything, it’s that which I think is Ruvy’s undoing: if he could just do that, he’d be OK, in addition to being able to communicate more clearly and elicit more support for his cause.

    But who am I to say since I’m not in his shoes.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Doc, Agreed, many great self deprecating Jewish commedians, Woody Allen is probably the king of it, embodying the joke to a degree. Jackie Mason, Mel Brooks, the list goes on and on.

    Chris Rock is another one who makes un-PC jokes, about both blacks and whites and I love the man. He’s even made fun of Obama a few times which he deserves much credit for.

    So when someone makes an offhanded Jew comment, I have to stop myself and say are they just trying to be humorous? Or was that actually meant to offend? I guess the answer is we all need to get a sense of humor and read people’s actions rather than words, which after all is the Jewish way.

    Roger,

    Agreed, Ruvy can be bitter at times. Also agreed that neither of us are in his shoes, so from my view I try not to judge. However, it would be nice if he stopped lambasting me for living in the USA :>

  • Baronius

    OA, I watched Letterman’s opening monologue recently. He did about 6 Bush jokes, 2 Cheney jokes, and one joke about Bill Clinton chasing women. No Obama jokes. Some people think he’s not touching Obama out of bias, or fear of insulting a black man, but I’m starting to wonder if he’s just stale. I mean, Bill Clinton?

  • The Obnoxious American

    Baronius, Agreed. And I grew up on Letterman. I attended the taping of the show two different times when he was still at NBC! Last summer, saw the taping of his show at the Ed Sullivan Theater. So if anything my bias is pro Letterman. Sadly, these days I have a real tough time watching him because of his bias for Obama.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Obnox: I guess the answer is we all need to get a sense of humor and read people’s actions rather than words

    I think it’s always better to take things in context rather than just what is being said. Granted that if you don’t know the person that well, it’s difficult to judge whether they habitually make Jew jokes, actually are Jewish, or simply had a verbal Hershey squ!rt.

    Baronius: I mean, Bill Clinton?

    If Letterman starts making Eleanor Roosevelt jokes you know he’s in trouble.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Apparently Akismet deems that

    s q u i r t

    is a banned word.

    Bloody porn spammers…

  • Baronius

    And yet the word “porn” strolls right through.

  • Clavos

    Akismet isn’t just about porn spammers — c a s i n o won’t go through without mods, either.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    No-one said Akismet had any logic or sense to it, Baronius. Case in point: when I added the name of a certain erectile dysfunction drug as a banned word because of persistent spamming, only to discover that a word describing a certaIn left-wing political philosophy was also now banned because it contained within it the name of the drug…

    …I think we all know what I’m talking about.

  • Clavos

    …From which we can only conclude that being a left-winger results in erectile dysfunction, right?

  • STM

    Baronius: “My point is, the US, French, and British military weren’t operating to the east of Berlin.”

    How did the French manage to creep in there. They surrendered in 1940 and made a deal with Hitler to set up an occupied zone with a new capital in Vichy, and didn’t do much after the liberation of France except cause a drama over the liberation of Paris, which they insisted upon leading ()figuratively anyway) despite not having done much fighting previously.

    As Doc points out too, they seem to have conveniently painted the anglo-americans out of the liberation of France, who actually were the liberators!

    The main efforts of the French prior to that (as part of the British and later both the British and American armies as the Free French) were in North Africa and Italy, although at one stage in Syria the Vichy French were actually fighting the Poms (for a short time). Go figure.

    In fact the Australians were sent to deal with them. I know this because one of my old mates, Charles (now deceased), was actually there before being transferred later in the war to the Pacific when all Aussie forces were brought home from North Africa. When he was sick in hospital a few years ago, I went to see him.

    He’d cornered a wardsman … he was as deaf as a post and from down the corridor I could hear him almost shouting: “Then we went up to Bardia (in Libya) and gave it to the Italians … ”

    I knew then he was on the mend for the moment – and I’ve never seen anyone look as grateful at my arrival as that wardsman.

    None of this is to underplay the sacrifice of the French in many areas, and I won’t, but they DO underplay the sacrifice of others.

    The Vichy regime also sent many thousands of French Jews to the camps.

    The real sacrifice of the French was 20 uyears earlier in WWI, with over a million dead, which gives a clue as to why they weren’t keen to have another go.

    Also why the British weren’t happy about another war, with similar casualty figures AND a smaller population. World War One virtually wiped out the sons of the British aristocracy, and almost every family in Britain had a dead, wounded or traumatised son.

    Doc’s right. Anti-semitism isn’t something I ever noticed in the UK, and since their views tend to rub off on us in Oz, I’m inclined to believe, as there’s no anti-semitism here that I’ve ever seen.

    Ruvy has a shockingly skewed view of history.

  • STM

    OA: My understanding about the rise in attacks on Jews in the UK is that they are increasingly carried out by militant muslims or those radicalised elements sympathetic to the palestinian/muslim cause.

  • STM

    And I’m no stranger to prejudice either. I lived overseas as a boy and went to English schools, both in the UK and the mid-east. At first I copped it over there, then when I left, starting high school in Australia, I just about got one good smack in the mouth per day because of my English accent.

    It settled down pretty quick, as the accent settled down to normal (sorry Doc:), but still … I do know what it’s like to be bullied and harassed.

    It did teach me a few things though.

    I’m a great believer in fighting back … each and every time, no matter what – even if you get an absolute thumping. Everyone who smacked me in the mouth got one back. Some of them didn’t care but at least if you fight back, people stop doing it after a while.

    Or they at least think twice about it.

  • Jordan Richardson

    So what I’m concluding from a reading of the comments on this topic and others is that anti-Semitism in America is alive and well and we should be afraid of it but good old-fashioned racism is over and done with. Nice.

  • Baronius

    STM – It’s always the English-speakers for you, isn’t it? (Teasing.) Since I was talking about the Allies and the partition of Germany, I figured it’d be fair to mention the French. But I think my main point holds, that the chance to save the Jews of Europe was on the eastern front.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    …as the accent settled down to normal (sorry Doc:)

    No worries, mate!

    (I actually do say that a bit.)

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Incidentally, they’re showing The Chaser’s War on cable over here at the moment. Well, sort of – they’ve edited out all the skits that deal with Aussie politics, but it’s still hilarious.

    The APEC summit stunt was the best, of course.

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet

    Doc has an accent?

  • STM

    Baronious: “STM – It’s always the English-speakers for you, isn’t it? (Teasing.)”

    Mostly, yes …

    I’m a great believer in freedom through rule of law, and I don’t understand why any of us should be made to feel guilty – or feel guilty at all – for making the world a much better place.

    I know you’re just revving me up Baron, but there’s truth in my view.

    The ledger’s in our favour, not the other way around.

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet

    Doc, – S q u i r t – is the name of a soft drink here, which is why the damned thing thinks it’s spam… though I’m not sure they have it on the west coast.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    No, Jet, I don’t have an accent – you all do!

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    And Jet, somehow I don’t think that’s the reason…

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet

    No me, from the way I’m usually stereotyped, I speak the “Queens'” English, though you’d never know it to actually listen to me.

    By the way Clavos has the opposite problem of erectile dysfunction, his won’t go down every time he get’s near a bank.

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet

    In fact Clavos had to resort to e-mailing his stock broker because he’d get all out of breath on the phone.

  • leighann

    Up until my 20’s I used the expression “jewing them down” when I was speaking of haggling over a price. I did it becuase I did not understand what I was saying. It was just an expression that I had heard and used. I did not make the connection (I am ashamed to say) until one of my aunts heard me say it and told me that I would have to answer to a Jew one day. I then made the connection that it was a reference to the Jewish race. I never said it again. My point is that it may be out of ignorance sometimes. I also did not know that “gypped” referred to Gypsies. I had also said that many times.

    Anti-semitism still exists, I live in TN and hear it often (I always challenge it). From what I understand the skin-heads hate Jews.

    I often wonder how people could have done the things that they have done. I can just about fathom one crazy person like Hitler being that satanic but then there were all of his men who were killing men, women and babies! I will never understand that. It bothers me to the point that I think about it and worry about it all of the time. No one is safe from that kind of evil. Our true arrogance is in thinking for even a second that we are.

    I also do not understand hating people who had nothing to do with it. Women have been treated badly since the beginning of time. Raped, beaten and killed. I myself was sexually abused by a couple of men when I was a child. Do I now hate men or think that they should all pay for what a few did? Of course not, that is rediculous.

    Anyway, I have been researching my family a bit and I have a grandmother from Germany named Mary Singer. Is this a German name?

    Leighann

  • STM

    BTW, it’s Anzac Day (veterans day) here today.

    We don’t forget either, Ruve.

  • STM

    Doc: “No, Jet, I don’t have an accent – you all do!”

    Lol. I don’t know how you can understand a word the buggers say over there, Doc. It’s almost incomprehensible.

    Most American accents sound like someone trying to strangle a cat, and not having much success :)

  • STM

    Doc: “The Chaser’s War”

    Did they cut out the bits where they went on the streets and armed with a map of the world, asked Americans questions about world politics.

    One sketch is hilarious.

    It has Tasmania marked as South Korea and mainland Australia as North Korea.

    One guy says: “Hey, lookin’ at that, I’ve just realised … North Korea is much bigger than South Korea, shee-it”.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    I don’t think they’ve played that one yet, but this week they did the one where their ‘American correspondent’ stops people on the streets of New York to ask if they know what date 9/11 happened on.

    Then there’s Julian Morrow’s ‘Citizen’s Infringement Officer’ where he goes round giving people tickets for having a wanky tattoo or giving their baby a crap name.

    Great stuff.

  • STM

    They also book a parking officer.

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet

    First Ruvy, now you two. Did I miss a memo that this was anti-American week?

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Every week is anti-American week in Ruvy World!

    (BTW, is it disrespectful that we’re commenting on his thread on the Sabbath?)

    :-)

  • http://jetssciencepage.blogspot.com/ Jet

    I don’t know about us, but Stan’s across the international Date line isn’t he?

    By the way, Suss says he’s looking forward to me never writing again; should I oblige?

  • STM

    Leighann: “Mary Singer. Is this a German name?”

    Yes, according to a few websites, it is … so it could be but it’s also an anglo-saxon name and in keeping with this thread, also a European jewish name – from Yiddish.

    Since the saxons went to England from Germany anyway, that’s possibly where it has its roots. In all three cases, the names mean a similar thing … someone associated with music, singing, ballads or poetry.

    Isaac Singer, of Singer sewing machine fame, was likely of German background … from Saxony. It all gets confusing here though – Singer was an American who moved to England to live.

    The Irish rugby halfback is Peter Singer, but I’d suggest in his case it’s more likely an English name or possibly an anglicised version of an Irish surname.

    There are also suggestions that some German names like Wissinger have been anglicised in both the US and the UK to become Singer.

    But it’s a reasonably common name in Germany and in the English-speaking countries.

    There are 100 Singers in the Sydney, Australia, white pages telephone book.

    How’s that Leighann? Help?

  • Tony

    What I find humorous — a point that is never really touched on — is that Israel actually thinks they are anything more to the U.S. than a military and political interest. The Jews actually believe that the U.S. government cares about their struggle or their biblical claims to sand.

    Israel exits in its current incarnation purely as a way for the United States to keep control over the Middle East without stationing even more troops there. We give the Israelis a bunch of weapons including some nukes for good measure and they essentially keep everyone in line, while giving us intelligence information and a safe place to operate from should we get the urge to intervene in some event that we feel goes against our greater interests in the region.

    Oh, and lets not forget that big Jewish voting block in the U.S. Pimped out just like the red necks. One gets fed Christian information about hating gays and the fallacy of science and the other is saturated with pro-Israel propaganda. In the end, they are just high priced whores up for bid between the two biggest pimps in town.

    There is no Israel. The United States created it, maintains it, and if we ever withdrew our support it would cease to exist once again.

  • STM

    Jet: “First Ruvy, now you two. Did I miss a memo that this was anti-American week?”

    We’re just having fun. You’re our mates. If we didn’t care, we wouldn’t bother. We love youse, really … although we’d love youse even more if you could laugh at yourselves a bit more.

    Ruvy, however, is deadly bloody serious.

    It’s Saturday here. Like I say, Anzac Day. All the old Diggers have been out marching through the city with their battle flags and their medals.

    We love them too, for their sacrifice and that of their mates (and American servicemen are remembered too at some services, especially in Melbourne where the crew of the USS Houston is marked at the shrine of remembrance alongside the crew of HMAS Perth from the same battle against the Japanese in the Sunda Strait), although I don’t want to hear another bugle/trumpet rendition of The Last Post, in memory of the dead, until next year.

    The TV channels flog it mercilessly. It’s even been used this year to promote the annual Anzac Day rugby league game. Not sure about the veracity of that. I understand they didn’t mean any disrespect but perhaps it cheapens the meaning of it all.

    It’s a very solemn thing and should only be played once in each place … at whatever Dawn Service it’s played at.

  • Clavos

    Isaac Singer, of Singer sewing machine fame…

    The other Isaac Singer, Isaac Bashevis Singer (no relation), America’s foremost Yiddish poet and a Nobel Prize winner (1978), was Polish. He lived in my small Miami-area beach town of Surfside; our main street is named for him.

    A wonderful, warmhearted man, and a keen observer of the foibles of humanity.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Since you’re on the subject, Clavos, Isaac Singer wrote an excellent introduction (or an afterword) to Knut Hamsun’s Mysteries. He considered Hamsun in fact “the father of modern literature.”

  • STM

    Clav: “A wonderful, warmhearted man, and a keen observer of the foibles of humanity.”

    God knows, we need a few of them.

    Goodnight and good luck, guys … I’m off home to watch the footy.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Lots of comments to respond to on a Saturday night:

    Roger,

    There’s always the enemy and there’s no changing it.

    The problem is that there is always the enemy. This story from 23 April in Arutz Sheva is just one example. Jews in Israel or overseas do not habitually deface mosques. Perhaps we should so the Moslems get a good solid taste of the shit they hand out all the time here – but we don’t.

    Pay attention to what the Obnoxious American and Clavos say about Jew-hatred. They know what they are talking about.

    OA, Clavos, Joanne, thank you.

    Leigham, I’m touched by what you say. I often wonder how people could have done the things that they have done. I can just about fathom one crazy person like Hitler being that satanic but then there were all of his men who were killing men, women and babies! I will never understand that. It bothers me to the point that I think about it and worry about it all of the time. No one is safe from that kind of evil. Our true arrogance is in thinking for even a second that we are.

    The Nazis were very very effective in using propaganda to build their state, and they used every lever of emotion, culture and art to drive their message home. In the pre-war years when they were pulling Germany out of the banker-induced depression of 1929, they not only provided jobs in arms factories, construction, building autobahnen, “the People’s Car” Volkswagen, all of which restored pride in “Germanness”, they used every avenue of culture to drive home their message of Aryan superiority. This fictional example from the movie Cabaret is a tiny taste of what the average German (non-Jew, non-Gypsy, non-homosexual) had for influence every waking minute of the day. Even the Christian “Lord’s Prayer” was re-written to fit the dictates of the Nazi Party. When exposed to this influence 24/7 for a number of years, it becomes normal to assume it is the truth – especially when life is getting better than it had been.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Stan,

    We’ve been over all this ground before, you and I.

    Had European nations taken in Jewish refugees in the first place, instead of trying to keep them out (remember the conference in Evian), there never would have been a need for kinder transports at all. Had the Brits had the guts to say to the Jewish Agency, “ïf you want Jewish immigration, mobilize the haganá to protect them,” there would have been NO problem with Arab terrorism in Mandate Palestine at all. And you know that I’m right.

    But we all know that didn’t happen, did it? The Brits were afraid of the Arabs, scared shitless of them and didn’t want to upset the Wahhabi trash who sent oil, even though they had to accede to training Jews to watch the oil line from Mosul to Haifa (the real reason Orde Wingate created the Palma”H) We also know that the craven and duplicitous British did everything they could NOT to train Jews to fight in WWII and gave into a great deal of pressure. And we also know that NONE of the Allied air forces ever bombed the railroad tracks to the concentration camps or the entry-ways so as to make them in-operative. AND we know that the British kept the doors of Mandate Palestine closed AFTER WWII – an action that resulted in the violent Jewish revolt that was all toO well deserved; and we know that the duplicitous British liars, having promised, as a matter of international law, to erect a Jewish State here, refused resolutely to do so, and turned over their arms and fortresses to the Arabs who wanted to exterminate us.

    I don’t care how much perfume you put on a pig – you can’t turn it into a silk purse. The rotten truth still stands whether you like it or not, no matter how many upper cuts you want to deliver to my chin.

    If you ever do come here as a guest, remember that I’ll be gentleman enough not to tell you that in my home. I treat all guests with courtesy. But here, on-line, the truth will serve fine; in fact, Stan, “the truth will set you free”.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    (BTW, is it disrespectful that we’re commenting on his thread on the Sabbath?)

    Not at all. It gives me something to look forward to.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    you know Ruvy, you make me sad to be a Jew.

    Robert, you make me sad that you are a Jew. When you come over here and put your ass on the line, the way my son will have to in a few months and the way I do now, to defend the homeland G-d gave you, then you can bitch at me all you want. You will have earned the right to any opinion you desire. Till then, Robert, you’re THERE, pretending you have the right to lecture me HERE.

    Since you appear to be in exile, go learn about the ninth plague, the plague of darkness. The final Redemption will mirror the events in the Exodus and it is evident you are entering such a plague again. May the Almighty show you and yours His mercy….

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Realization of your worst fears, Ruvy.

  • Glenn Cessor

    Ruvy –

    Concerning your original topic, if that is truly how you feel, then you are never – never! – going to be happy. Never, ever, ever.

    Oh, you might laugh and smile here and there and tell yourself that you’re happy, but you are nursing base hatred in your heart…feeding it, caressing it, becoming one with it until you are blind to all but that which your hate allows you to see.

    We must never forget what has happened in history – indeed, as the saying goes, if we forget history then we are doomed to repeat it. HOWEVER, if we do not forgive, then hatred will fester and grow like a cancer.

    AND YOU AS A JEW should have it in your heart to forgive!

    If you do not forgive, then listen to the words of J. Mendes DeSolla, Head Master of the Religious Schools of the Congregations
    Emanu-El and Sherith Israel, San Francisco back in 1871:

    “We should forgive others as well as we wish our sins and offences to be forgiven. It is very sinful to be unforgiving and revengeful.”

    You may attend Selichot services, and ‘selichot’ means ‘forgiveness’. According to Rabbi Malka Drucker, at Selichot services, “After looking at our behavior in the past year, we ask each other forgiveness and we offer it. This is basic Judaism. Judge yourself and forgive others.”

    The same Rabbi states: “Tomer Devorah, a kabbalistic book written by Moses Cordovero in the thirteenth century, teaches us that we should be like God. “You shall go in God’s ways,” means that if God is compassionate, so should we be. Throughout the High Holiday services, we sing, “Adonai, Adonai, el rahum v’hanun…” God, God, of compassion and grace, slow to anger, generous in love and truth, showing love to thousands,forgiving sin, wrong and failure; who pardons.” In this passage from Exodus are thirteen qualities of God, and they all have to do with mercy.”

    The same rabbi also notes: “The Shulchan Aruch, the Code of Jewish Law, says, “The one whose forgiveness is sought should forgive with a perfect heart and not be cruel, for such is not the characteristic of a Jew. Even if you have been grievously wronged, do not seek vengeance, nor bear a grudge against the other. Even if the offender does not arouse himself to come to you for forgiveness, you should present yourself to the offender in order that the latter may beg your pardon. If you are magnanimous and forgive, all your own sins are forgiven.

    So if you’re going to be a Jew, Ruvy, then BE A JEW and ABIDE BY THE TENETS OF JUDAISM! FORGIVE! Do NOT forget…but FORGIVE.

  • Ruvy

    Glenn,

    All that you say above in your 4th through 10th paragraphs holds absolutely true – except that it refers to fellow Children of Israel, not everybody on the planet. I try hard to be forgiving to fellow Jews (I don’t always succeed, but I do try) and I try hard to be forgiving to my fellow Children of Israel, the Pashtun (many of whom are presently seduced by poison of the Taliban), many of whom presently want me and mine dead. I’m commanded in the Torah not to hold hatred in my heart for a brother.

    But as to the rest of the world, I’m not required to forgive. When those in the rest of the world seek forgiveness, I’m wise to try to grant it – both for my sake (forgiveness is healthier than holding on to hatred) and for theirs. So, Germans who come to me and seek our forgiveness will always find me kind and willing to forgive. But for the most part, Arabs and other Jew-haters have not been seeking our forgiveness lately.

    That is basic Judaism, Glenn.

    Nice try. Props for the effort.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, Ruvy. You’ve just expressed what I find most objectionable – the Jewish people separating themselves from the rest of humanity. And I don’t care now where such convictions stem from, they’re wrong.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    Okay, I was completely wrong – it’s not the first time and won’t be the last. There is nothing I can find in Judaism requiring forgiveness of non-Jews.

    I can say that I deeply, truly pity all those who follow Judaism (and Islam, for I think they preach something similar), for being able to forgive one’s enemies enables one to look past the obvious and find the real reasons for hatred and injustice…and enables one to heal.

    It was not until now that I had any serious misgivings about Judaism – after all, you and I share much the same belief in God, since neither of us are trinitarians.

    But to not forgive – Ruvy, you have my pity…

    …and now I see that there is truly seems to be no hope for peace in the Middle East.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Not unless it’s enforced, Glenn. It’s a religion of endless suffering and self-destruction. Sorry, Ruvy. Shoot me if you must.

  • STM

    Ruve: “We also know that the craven and duplicitous British did everything they could NOT to train Jews to fight in WWII and gave into a great deal of pressure”.

    Nevertheless, they were the only ones that did.

    The Jewish Brigade – and a brigade isn’t a small army unit – were raised in Palestine (and there were plenty of Pelstinian and non-Palestinian jews fighting elsewhere in the British armed forces, many thousands of them – 50,000 just from Palestine alone).

    The Jewish Brigade (5000 men) were incorporated into the British army as an infantry unit and sent to Italy to fight the Nazis.

    So for all your bluster, the British were still the only allied power to raise a fighting force consisting entirely of Jews, to arm them, to train them and to send them to fight the Germans.

    Like I say, without the Nazis none of any of this would have been an issue in the first place. Simply, there wouldn’t have been a war that resulted in a) the need for mass migration of Jews, or b) a Holocaust.

    Put the blame where it really lies. With the squareheads.

    You also seem to forget that Britain took in the largest number of Jews from occupied Europe (both before and after it was occupied) than anyone else.

    You’re just drinking the koolaid there Ruve, and swallowing it lock, stock and barrel.

    You never addressed the other issue I raise: that most jews in Europe prior to Nazi occupation weren’t that interested in uprooting, losing their homes, businesses and friends and starting a new life elsewhere.

    This is one area you definitely overplay.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    When those in the rest of the world seek forgiveness, I’m wise to try to grant it – both for my sake (forgiveness is healthier than holding on to hatred) and for theirs. So, Germans who come to me and seek our forgiveness will always find me kind and willing to forgive.

    I’m quoting real life experience here, Glenn. Real individuals have come asking for forgiveness – and I’ve told them that while those who actually did the deed can’t be forgiven – they never sought forgiveness, at least not to my knowledge – those who sought the forgiveness certainly aren’t to be blamed, as they do not have the hatred in their hearts or have sought to expel that hatred if they once had it. See Leighann’s comment upthread, and my response to her, Glenn.

    In other words, the attitude you seek from me is essentially the one that I have – to anyone who seeks forgiveness. After all, if G-d is willing to forgive he who seeks forgiveness, who am I to withhold it? That indeed would be unhealthy and holding hatred in one’s heart unnecessarily.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Stan, maybe you missed this paragraph in my article:

    At last, German Jews, desperate for a place to run to, began to run to Mandate Palestine; a few short years previous they never would have considered deserting the civilized Berlin for Mandate Palestine. But now they were happy to get out. Thousands of Jews settled in Tel Aviv and Haifa, giving a distinct flavor to the buildings they had erected.

    German Jews woke up under the threat of death. And a lot of them woke up in time. When Ze’ev Jabotinsky toured Jewish towns and villages seeking votes for the Revisionist Zionists in the Jewish Agency elections of 1934, he begged Polish, Romanian, Hungarian and Slovakian Jews to come home. His begging fell on deaf ears – until it was too late. When Jews in Eastern Europe finally figured out that they had to leave, and that the Land of Israel was the only place to go in the world, the British had already slammed the door shut on the Mandate that they had an obligation to uphold.

    The tale is even sadder than that. Jews don’t like to be told that they have to move their butts. During the middle of the war, a group of Jews were praying the afternoon prayer in a Hungarian town when a refugee, breathless from running, broke into the synagogue and told them the Nazis would arrive in a half hour, and not much more with the intent to round them up and ship them off to a concentration camp. He then hightailed it to safety. The Jews in the synagogue didn’t listen and round up their families to seek what safety they could; they argued over what the man said and whether he should be believed – until the Nazis arrived – on time – and took them and their families to concentration camps. This story is from one of the few survivors.

    Did I hear someone saying that Jews were smart and possessed of naturally high intelligence? This was smart?

    I’m really sorry, Stan, all your arguing and alleging that I drink Kool-aid will not bring back the dead who refused to flee, or the dead the British shut out from the best refuge they could have had, the Land of Israel. They are just as dead and just as gone. And they traveled over the tracks to concentration camps that the British and Americans, possessing tremendous air superiority in 1944 REFUSED to bomb! You can’t get around any of that, and you embarrass yourself trying.

    Remembrance Day here memorializes, specifically, the massacre at Gush Etzion on 14 May 1948. From the link. The final saga of the Etzion bloc included two separate massacres and a prolonged and stubborn defense against hopeless odds. The bloc was finally overrun by soldiers of the British armed and officered Jordan Legion, who were responsible for the final massacre of surrendered defenders, a war crime..[emphases mine]

    British betrayal, Stan. No matter what anyone tells you, that is we suffered at the hands of the British. And a French embassy official had the gall to say “that shitty little country, Israel” when talking to the embassy officials of the country responsible for that war crime, Stan?

    And you want me to forget – or forgive? What kind of fool do you take me for anyway? Have another sip of that kangaroo-flavoured Koolaid you like to drink, Stan.

  • Oh Dear!

    You forget. Allies did not know about the camps, until well into the war.

  • STM

    I heard you constantly putting shit on the Poms – who know are far from perfect. But you conveniently forget that the real issue here is that had the Nazis not come to power in Germany, none of this would be an issue.

    Plus, the people you are putting shit on spent six years fighting the bastards.

    Your inability to look at the reality of all this astounds me.

    Although given your track record, I don’t know why I should be astounded.

    In my view, Ruve, the more I see of this, if all Israelis are like you, then I’m starting to think that it’s Israel that’s the true bastion of perfidy, not Albion.

    It’s beyond me that you can sit there criticising Britaina nd the US over this, but can’t point the finger of blame at the one place it truly belongs.

    The only place it belongs.

    I know about the Arab Legion and I do know about the massacre..Of course, no Israelis have ever been accused of killing Arabs indisciminately.

    The Arab Legion also spared the defenders of old Jerusalem in 1948..
    you make all my points for me, though Ruve … the reason the British tried to control the flow of jewish refugess was just so those things wouldn’t happen.

    Because they couldn’t, we got the predicted descent into chaos … the the current situation.

    It could also be suggested that the Hagana were a terrorist organisation. IMO, they were a disgrace, hellbent on a certain path and killing British soldiers attempting to keep the peace, especially when some of those British soldiers had already put their own lives on the line in the six years previously in a vicious fight to rid the world of the murderers of European jewry. The irony of that won’t be lost on anyone here but you.

    Certainly, embryonic Israel was bent on wresting control of Palestine from Arabs and returning it to Jewish control.

    However, when you look at this with 20/20 hindsight rather than Ruvy-coloured glasses, the blame still lies 100 per cent in the corner of those responsible for the Holocaust, not those trying to pick up the pieces before and after.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Stan,

    This writer will never exonerate the Nazis for the satanic evil they brought about on this planet. The German people have not been judged for the evil of the satanic bastards they brought forth and for the war these bastards began in the year 5700 on this planet. That they have not been judged, and that they have not suffered for the satanic evil they did convinces me that terrible things are yet to befall Europe. The Living G-d of Israel will yet avenge the murders of His children. And you will stand in awe and in utter fear when you see this happen.

    How this will happen, and when it will happen I cannot tell you. I am no prophet, and frankly, I’m glad such knowledge does not burden my soul.

    But be warned. The murderers will be judged along with those who allowed that murder to happen. Europeans generally cooperated with the Nazi savagery because the vast majority of them felt powerless in the face of evil and overwhelming force. But the British and Americans did not quail in the face of this satanic enemy and fought to erase the world of it. But they did not fight to erase or stop the evil holocaust of death that they were well aware of. For this, both will be judged. Additionally, the British betrayed the Jews, whom they had agreed under international law to aid in building a National Home, and sided with the Arab enemy, in spite of the constant betrayals of this Arab enemy. And for this, they too, will be judged.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Stan, it is an exercise in futility trying to engage Ruvy on this subject. Like Popeye, he is what he is, and no amount of reason is ever going to shake his “fixed knowledge”. If I was religious, I’d pray for him.

    Changing the subject somewhat, what I would like to know, and this goes for all three strands of monotheism, is this: all three of them believe in an afterlife, that the human “soul” is immortal and goes to a better place, so why anger and not happiness at all this death?

    I am sad and/or angry when loved ones die because I believe that life ends at death, so each passing is a real and genuine loss.

    These faithists can’t apparently totally believe in their views or they would be celebrating the fact that one of their loved ones had gone to a “better place”.

  • STM

    Ruve: “the British betrayed the Jews, whom they had agreed under international law to aid in building a National Home”.

    They might have been able to do so, and work for a way better outcome than the one you have now, if the Hagana hadn’t started killing them.

    I see the betrayal the opposite way.

    You realise the insanity of the early conflict was that British officers seconded from the British Army to whichever side they had been told prior to the fighting fought on the side of both the Hagana and the Arab Legion, even while the Hagana and some more radical elements were killing British soldiers (the Siege of Jerusalem)… ?

    What does that tell you?

    The mandate ends and they’re engaged in a futile attempt to keep order and prevent a descent into a bloodbath over partition.

    Didn’t work. Still hasn’t.

    And I agree it’s futile Rosey, but I can;t let him get away with it with calling him on it.

    A skewed view of history is fine, provided it’s also not adverse to having a little skewed look at the other POV.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    STM,

    Ruvy is an exception, and to tell the truth, he’s getting more and more radical by the moment. I’m willing to bet he doesn’t represent more than one percent of his people.

    Just consider. If they’re all like that, then they’re no different from their most rabid enemies and the whole Middle East had better descend into the bowels of Hell.

    That would be justice.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Stan,

    Last night I took the trouble to write a long comment detailing for you the three different groups who fought the British here before the State was established. The damned ass end “terchnorten” monster gobbled it up, and I’m rapidly losing my patience with this shitty new format. There is a distinct possibility that I’ll be gone from here if Olsen & Co. can’t fix up the mess they’ve made of this site.

    In short, then.

    Look up the following: Hagana, Irgun, Stern Gang. The terrorists you dislike so were not the Hagana, but the Stern Gang (which assassinated Lord Moyne in Egypt, and Count Folke Bernadotte during the war for independence), and the Irgun, which broke its prisoners out of the Atlit Prison, blew up the King David Hotel, and flogged British officers to teach them not to take a whip to Jews. Compared to them, the Hagana were girls on a country picnic. Had it been left to the Hagana, the Brits would still be here now, still retarding the development of the country.

    Certain facts till stand, though, whether you like them or not.

    1. Britain betrayed and perverted the Mandate, which according to the Articles on Palestine in 1920 vested sovereignty in the Jewish people.
    2. Secondly, They shut the doors of the one good refuge that Jews desperate for one needed – the Land of Israel.
    3. Thirdly, they refused to bomb concentration camps or the tracks leading to them, even when doing so would have betrayed no security. Untold thousands of Jews (and others) died because of this. 4. Finally, after WWII they continued to keep the door shut to Mandate Palestine, illegally so, and attempted to give the country over to the Arabs.

    That base enmity continues to this day.

    All the hand-wringing and arguing and whining over Britain’s losses in WWI do not change any of these facts. There was and continues to exist a terrible moral failure on the part of the British, and frankly I only hope that G-d gives them the justice they deserve.

    I do not want to continue this back and forth, but if you challenge basic history, I’ll keep rubbing your nose in it until it sickens you.

    Sorry, mate. That’s how I is.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Roger,

    I hate to tell you this, but I represent far more than 1% of the Jewish population here. My views are roughly represented by a least 40% of the Jewish population in this country, in one way or another.

    What’s more, even many “peaceniks” have the same unforgiving view I do; their parents or grandparents were either sent off to Madagascar (like the people on the Exodus 1947), or rotted in a DP camp while the Brits kept the gates to this land shut and handed over arms and fortified positions to the Arabs as they evacuated.

    And they well know that had the doors of the Mandate been open there was the possibility that their relatives who died in the death camps could have come home to safety, even if under the guns of the Hagana – instead of turning into dust and ash that Polish schoolchildren trample on unthinkingly today.

    If that offends you, it is meant to. It is the cold, hard truth. You will see the whole world get dragged into a hell that you will all hate in the not to distant future.

    I leave you with this warning from the Bible: “those who curse Israel will be cursed; those who bless Israel will be blessed.” Think hard on those words. Think on your relatives in Tel Aviv, if not yourself, and think hard on those words.

    I bid you a good day.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    No, Ruvy. I never hated Israel, or cursed it. Just don’t believe in these prophecies. And I hope I’m not offending you by saying so.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Explain to me one thing, please. How come bombing the concentration camps would have saved lives? And what time frame are we talking about? Were they knowledgeable about those camps? Do you have links to sources?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    BTW, this interface still sucks to high heaven; they surely took all the fun out of instant communication. You almost have to divine when the fresh comment is coming from. And you can’t just go to it but fish for it, hoping you’re find it. Our geniuses.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Roger, our geniuses are working like heroes to fix all the various bugs and weirdness after a major technology upgrade.

    This is completely normal for this kind of process and things will improve over the next few days. Please have a little patience and stop complaining so much…

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Ruvy, repeating your limited points endlessly doesn’t make them any more true. We ALL get that you see yourself and your adopted homeland as victims and you are sick of it.

    None of that is remotely convincing at all, because you have no facts, only fear, grudges, prejudice and superstition. You like to think of it as “cold, hard truth” though, as if that made it true or even acceptable.

    All you’ve really done is swap the secular myth of American exceptionalism for the faithist conceit of Israeli exceptionalism. Both points of view are utter egocentric drivel of course, but it doesn’t take a genius or even a psychologist to see the deeper fear (and loathing) that is really at the heart of your particular personality.

    It is actually humans that are exceptional, not countries, and it is humans that will still be around regardless of the illusory fate of nations or faiths in the future.

    I know you can never accept this because of the fixed knowledge system you have signed up for, but it doesn’t make it any less true, despite all your hollow blustering.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Sorry, Chris – just letting off steam, that’s all. I know it’s gonna take a while.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It is cold, Chris, but I do like what you said at the end – about humans being exceptional, not countries. We should all try to remember that rather then keep on digging deeper into the rabbit hole.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Explain to me one thing, please. How come bombing the concentration camps would have saved lives? And what time frame are we talking about? Were they knowledgeable about those camps? Do you have links to sources?

    When countries go to war, they are faced with nightmarish choices. One of them is whether to give away one’s knowledge of an enemy’s code for communication.

    The Germans had developed a code they thought was unbreakable – which Belgians or Poles, depending on which account you read, broke before the war even started.

    Bombing the German concentration camps would have compromised the British and American security by making the Germans aware that their vaunted Enigma Code had been broken. Until the invasion of Normandy in June 1944, it was a priority that the Germans not know that the Enigma Code had been broken.

    BUT AFTERWARDS was a different question. The Americans and British had achieved a strong measure of air superiority, and were able to raid such places as they chose in Europe with relatively little opposition. So, the time frame for this would have been from late June 1944 until March or April 1945, with the front shrinking westwards as the Red Army advanced west through White Russia, Poland and Germany.

    The value: the extermination of Jews and others in Europe depended on a coordinated system of communication and transportation because what was involved was the mass transfer of human beings, prisoners, from one place to another. That “another” place was where they were to die. Bombing the tracks to the concentration camps would have wrecked the transport of prisoners. Bombing the entry way to the camps would have made it hard to transfer prisoners from the trains to gas chambers or to any other part of the camp, and would have allowed the stronger of the prisoners in the camps to escape. Fire-bombing the gas chambers would have effectively forced the Nazis to find a far less cost effective way of killing Jews.

    As for knowledge of what was going on, you need to remember that ashes from the concentration camps fell on Polish and German cities. By 1943 everybody in Eastern Europe knew what was going on; various religious agencies reported regularly to the west, in dribs and drabs. That was why there were a series of revolts in the Warsaw, Lodz and Kovno Ghettos in mid 1943.

    Everybody in power knew, no matter what they said later. And everybody in power, from the Jew-haters in the American administration, to the “not-in-my-back-yard” American Reform Jews to the Jew-haters in the British government knew basically what was happening. They folded their arms and nodded their heads in silent assent. The Nazis were doing them a favor and they were not going to stop them.

    I don’t have time to give you links, but all you have to do is google this stuff up. You’ll get thousands of hits.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Baronius, At comment 22 you wrote,

    My point is, the US, French, and British military weren’t operating to the east of Berlin. Their bombers were focusing on the industrial areas of Cologne and the Ruhr Valley. Whatever happened on the other side of the continent was Russia’s to stop. Russia took their time, though, especially in Poland, where they gave the Nazis a few extra weeks to finish off Warsaw. Russia had few planes and no interest in saving the Jews

    You’re right about where the soldiers operated, and where the infantry and artillery went. That is not the real issue here. The issue is where the airplanes went, and as you point out the Red Army was not strong on planes.

    Pressure was put on Roosevelt to do something to save Jews being murdered off in the camps in mid 1944 to early 1945 when the Russians had effectively “liberated” the territory. The USAAF could have bombed the gas chambers the way they did Dresden. The RAF could have done likewise. They could have bombed the track, they could have bombed the entrances and unloading points at the camps, making them effectively inoperable. The United States and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland CHOSE not to do so.

    We have a saying in Hebrew, Baronius. tzedaká matzilá memávet – charity (or righteousness) saves from death. These bombing raids I described to you would have been both righteousness and charity – even if Jews had died in them as collateral damage. The sword of righteousness was in the hands of the Americans and the British – and the moment to wield it was at hand in June, 1944. The Americans and the British CHOSE not to wield that sword. Their lack of charity (or righteousness) will not save them from death.

  • STM

    Ruvy is now officially completely bonkers.

  • Ruvy

    This article is worth reading as it backs my analysis of the roles that the various Jewish groups played vis a vis the British. Were it not for the etze”l and le”Hi, the British would still be here making themselves useless, much as the UN does now. With G-d’s help, one day we will be rid of the UN trash and all the other trash we don’t need – the interfering Americans and the interfering Europeans.

  • Sami Uddin

    RUVY,

    There can be so many and many arguments made to the facts you provide and I can even prove them wrong.

    But i’d say this in just one line:

    “Jews are the ones cursed by GOD!”

    You know it, I know it, so just leave it at that and get on with ur life. Try to be a better person at an individual level. Thats the least anyone can do.

  • Sami Uddin

    Oh, and i can go back as 5000 years or even more, and then take you through every century of this time and Prove it over and over again, why do the jews suffer.

    It not an opinion, nor is it a personal analysis, but it is a fact.

    I am a Muslim, I can point out many of the disputed territories in the world where Muslims are being attacked and killed and what not. But i aint gonna whine on it, because most of the muslims have lost their true faith and values.

    And the few who follow the religion properly, are suffering because of them too. But thats how life is supposed to be, Cruel!

    Why dont u step up and accept the fact

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Sami,

    If that’s what YOU think, then you will miss out on a promised reconciliation between all the Children of Abraham. He who curses Israel is cursed – he who blesses Israel is blessed.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Ruvy,

    The idea of reconciliation should encompass all peoples and nations.

    That’s my humble opinion, never mind the Scriptures. It’s all about good, nothing about evil.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    In a short period of time, a book, “Cracking the Qur’an Code”, by Lowell Gallin, will be released through Lulu.com Look out for it, Sami. I will mention it here at Blogcritics Magazine in an article or two because it shows the route to peace between Muslims like yourselves and Jews like me.

    We can walk that path to peace – or we can walk the path to war. You will have to choose soon. And I hope you do not allow hate filled “leaders” to choose for you.

    Have a good week.