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Was Pat Robertson Wrong This Time About Islam?

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Pat Robertson did it again. On his 700 Club television show yesterday he said, “Islam is not a religion of peace.”

In response to a news story on his program concerning the recent violence around the world over some cartoons that are insensitive to Muslims, Mr. Robertson said, “…these people are crazed fanatics, and I want to say it now: I believe it’s motivated by demonic power, it is satanic, and it’s time we recognize what we’re dealing with…The goal of Islam, ladies and gentlemen, whether you like it or not, is world domination.”

Is he really wrong this time? It’s my personal belief that he’s not…this time. I keep reading and hearing people try to tell me that Islam is a religion of peace. I’m not seeing it, are you? Burning buildings over cartoons isn’t peaceful and doing it almost eight months after the fact makes it seem even more ridiculous! Bombing churches, especially churches of your own religion doesn’t seem very peaceful. Killing innocent people…men, women and children…doesn’t seem peaceful to me. Does it to you? Taking people hostage, especially those that are there to help in your cause, and then killing them doesn’t seem peaceful.

That’s what happened to Tom Fox. He was over there to be one of those human shields. Guess these radicals figure with Allah on their side, they don’t need any stinking shields!

I read somewhere that the state-run Iranian newspaper is asking for Jewish cartoons. Wanna bet that the Jews won’t respond the way the Muslims did when these cartoons are published?

Think about it for a second. What happened when Christians found out about the supposed art work called “Piss Christ”? I can’t find where it was originally displayed, but in my search, I found this from WikipediaPiss Christ is a controversial photograph by American photographer Andres Serrano. It depicts a small, plastic crucifix submerged in a glass of the artist’s urine. Some have suggested that the glass may also contain the artist’s blood. The piece was a winner of the Southeastern Center for Contemporary Art’s “Awards in the Visual Arts” competition, which is sponsored in part by the United States National Endowment for the Arts, which offers support and funding for projects that exhibit artistic excellence.

I mean, come on!!! The people in this country gave what could be called one of the most offensive things I’ve ever seen towards a religion a freaking award! They called it artistic excellence! You gotta be kidding me! Anyone can piss in a jar and throw a crucifix in it. What’s so excellent about that crap? But, were there riots when this happened? Any buildings get burned down? Anyone get killed over it?

I think what it all boils down to is really pretty simple. Are you civilized? Or are you a freaking animal? If you kill over cartoons or kill innocents, especially women and children, you’re an animal and your religion isn’t peaceful!

I was having a discussion here at work, and one of my colleagues said he had a family member that was a Muslim for 38 years, and he was peaceful. Somehow this is supposed to make me believe that because one member of his family was a peaceful Muslim, they all must be. I’m not drinking that Kool-aid, and you shouldn’t either.

I’d just like someone somewhere to give me three public examples of Muslims being peaceful…to someone other than other Muslims.

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About Andy Marsh

  • http://www.lucidscreening.com Ben

    Wow, this is incredibly offensive. I’m Korean and I have many close friends that are muslims (ranging from devout to not practicing) and they all have friends of varying religions and ethnicities.

    Aside from that, yes there are lots of angry muslims out there who are giving the religion a bad name, that can’t be denied but it’s unfair to blame the entire religion and everybody that’s a part of it.

    To compare Christianity being attacked to the attack of Islam is like comparing a white male New Yorker being descriminated against as opposed to an African American being descriminated against in Booger Hollow Alabama. Both are wrong, but at the end of the day, the New Yorker is a white man living in America. At the end of the day, even after “Piss Christ,” Christianity was still the dominant religion in the United States controlling all aspects of government policy making from the local to federal level.

    Muslims don’t have the benefit of any of this. Instead, they have a white Christian controlled government opressing them on a worldwide scale.

    I’m not defending the actions they’ve taken in protesting the cartoons but some of the claims you made are ridiculous. The world isn’t black and white and there’s not always a right answer to everything. Both sides here are wrong and people need to calm down and talk things over.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Hate to tell you this Ben, but those folks over there in the middle east have half the money in the world and most of the oil…and somehow…it’s still Americas fault that they’re oppressed…again…not my flavor of Kool-aid.

    You can spew that crap about both sides being wrong…but one published cartoons…the other killed people for it…just a bit of a difference there. I’d call it a bit of OVERKILL!

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Andy,

    If you’ve been reading the comments on Blog Critics carefully, you would know that the word “Moslem” means someone attempting perfection (completion) through submission to G-d. Islam means completion (through submission to G-d).

    Robertson is not wrong in stating that Islam is not the religion of peace. But he is being disingenuous by implying that it ought to be so considered. Bush, in making this claim, is merely showing the manure dribbling on his chin from kissing Saudi ass. Someone in his PR department ought to wipe away the manure. Even here we can smell it…

    Or is it the smell of the firecrackers kids are lighting in honor of Purim?

  • Don’t want Sharia

    I think he’s right this time as well. Islam in general will not tolerate any dissent from Islamic law. And its goal is to spread that law to every person and place around the globe. Those that do not follow Islam are supposed to be put to death.

  • Ben

    I’m not going to deep get into this. You’re not going to convince me of anything and I’m pretty sure I’m not going to convince you of anything.

    The actions of those protesting the cartoons can’t be defended. It’s unfortunate that it happened and it’s unfortunate that they’ve been pushed that far.

    Nothing in this complex world is as simple as “cartoon + violent religion = blood shed”

    As for the people that have half the money in the world and most of the oil, those few in posession of that are the ones rubbing elbows with our president and the American people are the ones making that oil so valuable in the first place.

    I’m going to step out of this now since I’m at work but I’m interested to see what others have to say…

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Ruvy – I read MOST of the comments…some of them are just to much. I understand what you’re saying.

    It’s not Robertson calling Islam the religion of peace, it seems to be Muslims that call this religion what it isn’t. I honestly see nothing peaceful about this religion.

    I mean really, I stayed in a hotel in Egypt and if you leave your window open, this religion doesn’t even let you sleep in!

    I’ll wait and see if I can get the three examples I asked for in my post…but I won’t hold my breath.

  • http://desicritics.org Aaman

    Dr Abdul Kalam, Imran Khan, Tariq Ali – all public figures, all peaceful. What a jejune expectation!

  • Ben

    Muslims organizations also participated in tsunami relief and hurricane katrina relief. Some organizations also donated to 9/11 funds, this shouldn’t be a surprise because NOT ALL MUSLIMS ARE THE SAME.

  • http://yet.typepad.com/round_dice Anil Menon

    Andy: ref to three examples.

    Here’s one example.

    This link points to others.

    Good luck in escaping your not uncommon predicament.

  • Dawn

    Andy – while your assessment is a generalization and we all know generalizations can be dangerous, I can certainly understand your feelings.

    Clearly there are lots of good-hearted Muslims in the world, but the current climate surely emphasizes the negative.

    In my opinion, this cycle of violence will continue until the majority of good Muslims outnumber those who wish to commit acts of violence.

    In the meantime, we must praise the good and pray for peace.

    Oh, and kill Osama Bin Laden until he is dead, dead, deadski.

  • http://www.clatch.blogspot.com A.L. Harper

    Pat Robinson is an arse.

  • http://desicritics.org Aaman

    the majority of good Muslims DO outnumber those who wish to commit acts of violence.

    Do you really believe otherwise?

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Anil – your first link is to Hindu’s being nice to Muslims…not the other way around…I guess you could classify it as Muslims being peaceful, which is what I asked for…but for every one example of them being peaceful I can give you at least 10 of them being violent.

    I agree Dawn, there are good hearted Muslims in the world. The only problem is there aren’t enough of them being vocal about how fucked up some of the most powerful ones are.

    I’ve read here on BC before where some would compare the Puritans back in the 1600’s to what’s happening today in the Muslim world…I believe it was meant to show how evil christianity can be. My response when I read that comment at the time was how many puritans are left?

    The problem here is that the radical element of this religion doesn’t seem destined to end any time soon. There are to many imams out there teaching hate and to many ignorant people ready to strap on a bomb and do what they’re told.

    Pat Robertson can spew hate all day long AND NOTHING HAPPENS! Ask Hugo Chavez. One well placed imam or mullah can have who knows how many brainwashed kids walking into marketplaces with bombs strapped to their asses?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Andy, et al.

    Let me make this real simple for everybody. ISLAM IS NOT THE RELIGION OF PEACE. ISLAM MEANS COMPLETION THROUGH SUBMISSION TO G-D.

    So all this crap about Islam NOT being the religion of “peace” and whining about it is an argument knocking down a straw man. If you are stupid enough to believe some Wahhabi snake oil salesman selling you this line of garbage, you deserve to be fooled. These things can be looked up in this modern day and age.

    Every now and then Pat Robertson is right about something. Every now and then my wife would win a few bucks in the Minnesota State Lottery. It all boils down to the same thing. Basically, you can count on Robertson to be wrong, or to be disingenuous about what he says.

    ONCE – in his comments about Sharon being hit by a stroke – Robertson was right. That about sums up his batting average – .001.

    And for the thousandth time. It is the Wahhabis and their spoor – the Moslem Brotherhood, the Saudi dynasty, Al Qaeda and the Taliban – who say that anyone who is not a Moslem deserves to die. The rest of the Moslems do not say any such thing. I’m beginning to see why they say teachers are underpaid…

  • zingzing

    dude, you’re full of shit. sure, there is lots of violence stemming from islam. it’s a rallying point that the violent use. the religion isn’t violent, it’s the people that are. those people are a minority.

    one could say that since bush is a raving lunatic christian, that all the violence done by the united states armed forces is a christian attack against muslims. that’s the way the voilent muslims want the rest of islam to see it, because it will make them believe that a religious war is on the way. they are manipulating and using islam as a source of power and recruiting, not the other way around. it’s just a fucking front. an excuse! that’s all it is.

    think about this. islam, in its current form, is about 6-700 years younger than christianity. what were christians doing 6 or 700 years ago? roving the earth, destroying in the name of the lord! convert or die, heathan!

    think of it as growing pains. muslims are not fucking stupid. don’t assume they are. those who want violent change want that change because they want the power that will be available in the aftermath. their religion is the shield they choose to employ. you can’t blame an old book for the evil that men do.

    re your “i can think of 10 examples [in the news] of muslims being violent for every 1 example of them being peaceful” or some such nonsense bullshit… PEACE DOES NOT MAKE THE NEWS, WAR DOES. that’s like saying “I CAN SHOW YOU 100 PICTURES OF PENGUINS I SAW [IN THE ARCTIC] FOR EVERY 1 PICTURE YOU CAN SHOW ME OF A PLATYPUS.” you don’t find stories about peaceful muslims in the press… and you don’t find platy… pusses? pi? …whatever, you don’t find them in the artic.

    or the antarctic. whatever. shit.

  • zingzing

    i’m referring to the writer of the article, not you, ruvy… although your comment is rather confusing.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Yup, Zing,

    What do I need to do to get my point across – draw letters of fire in the sky?

    I’m definitely beginning to see why they say teachers are underpaid.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Bush never did anything in the name of Christianity.

    And why is it because some group did something six or seven hundred years ago that it’s ok for another group to be doing it today? It was wrong then, they obviously figured that out and it’s still wrong….you know…the puritans again. It’s the 21st century…time to catch up!

    and lastly..dude, I know I’m full of shit, that’s why my eyes are brown.

  • tommyd

    Pat Robertson is a major league asshole, please people whatever you do, don’t believe what that devil says. The goal of Muslims is NOT “world domination”. The goal of Muslims is that their land is not occupied by foreign armies and not forced to join the New World Order of Godless consumption and entertainment. Their goal is self-determination to live as they see fit and would respond much better to fair and open diplomacy as opposed to being “liberated” by American bombs.

    Scapegoating Muslims is “free speech”, but saying a bad word about Jews and you end up in prison. Mmmmmm. YOU, Mr Westerner might not find anything wrong with that but according to the Muslim code of justice, there certainly is ALOT wrong with that double standard. And Western countries INVITED Muslims into their lands in the first place, OK. The Westerns are now in “shock” because Muslims remain devout towards their religion and haven’t “assimilated” into Western “culture” of decadence, godlessness, materialism and sexual promiscuity. The problem is that Muslims don’t belong in the West but they are unfairly scapegoated and their “threat” is hugely exaggerated.

    You people should really learn to empathize with your enemy if you’re ever going to have peace in this world.

  • zingzing

    it’s not okay for them to be doing it now and it wasn’t right then. but, it’s the same thing. you can’t blame the bible for the crusades. if i could, i would… but i can’t. it’s the stupid fucking christians.

    and no, bush never did anything in the name of christianity (although god does tell him what to do he says), but that doesn’t matter. it’s all about how the extremist muslims twist it. like you twist their violence into a hatred-filled diatribe against all muslims.

    hey ruvy– you say something like “islam is not a religion of peace,” but then follow it up with something about specific groups being evil, while the majority are peaceful. which is it? just want to know. maybe you should restate what you said…

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Who’s scapegoating anyone? I’m blaming Muslims for what Musims are doing.

    You say they don’t belong in the west…but they are there and it looks like they intend to stay, so they better learn to get along. It’s a big sand box and we all need to get along. I happen to like my decedant ways and I’m not changing. You want to live in the stone age, so be it, but not in my neighborhood. We have electricity now and running water…and schools for our daughters.

    You say they were invited. The door is always open, but when you come here, you live by OUR rules…the rules of civilization. Like most have and probably still want to…but it’s my feeling that not enough of them speak out against the bullshit and until that happens, shit won’t change.

    Yeah Robertsons’ an idiot. I never said he wasn’t. and I’m not drinking any of his Kool-aid either.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I don’t blame the bible for the crusades..I blame the Muslims for that also.

  • zingzing

    you’ve got to be kidding…

  • http://musical-guru.blogspot.com Michael J. West

    I don’t blame the bible for the crusades..I blame the Muslims for that also.

    Is that a joke? That’s like blaming the Polish for Hitler’s invasion of Poland.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Zing writes,

    “hey ruvy– you say something like “islam is not a religion of peace,” but then follow it up with something about specific groups being evil, while the majority are peaceful. which is it?” just want to know. maybe you should restate what you said…

    What I said is – for the third time – ISLAM IS NOT THE RELIGION OF PEACE. ISLAM MEANS COMPLETION THROUGH SUBMISSION TO G-D.

    That is a definition based on my knowledge of Hebrew, a sister language of Arabic. So forget the “religion of peace” bullshit – because that is what it is! Bullshit! Read the definition above.

    There is a cult within Islam – for the 20th time and counting – called the Wahhabi – that believes that everybody should be their variety of Moslem – or dead. They are not the majority of Moslems – yet. But they are damned influential, controlling Mecca and Medina, and being the base of the Saudi dynasty, Al Qaeda, the Taliban and the Moslem Brotherhood. And they have a taste for violence.

  • Ben

    Part of me wants to believe this whole post was a joke from the beginning. I guess I’m pretty out of touch for not realizing that people this out of touch exist and also for not realizing that people still drink kool-aid. wtf.

  • http://desicritics.org Aaman

    Comment #22 makes this entire post hate speech

  • http://musical-guru.blogspot.com Michael J. West

    Ruvy,

    Not to speak for anyone else, Zing included, but I understood what you were saying from the first time you said it.

    However, you seem (and correct me if I’m wrong) to be saying that the word and/or idea of Islam is not literally translated or defined as “the religion of peace.” Well, when I heard Islam described as “the religion of Peace,” I never thought that it was a literal translation or definition. Just a description.

    Some (although by no means all, of course) would say that the will of G-d IS peace. So submission to His will would, by default, make Islam essentially a religion of peace.

  • http://www.thebluesmokeband.com Brian Sorrell

    This dude needs to take a logic class. Then anger management. Then tolerance. Etc.

    I’ve read some pretty hair-brained crap on here from time to time, but this is so obviously bad…. I’m with Ben and Aaman.

    There is no way to have a discussion with our author until he gathers up some education and replaces a bit of his hate with brains.

    … really shocking stuff here.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Mike, I hear you.

    But going on that kind of logic, then Judaism is the religion of peace, Christianity is the religion of peace (you know, as in “prince of peace?”) along with a few more. Perfection is attained when you is at one with whatever the various varieties of Hinduism call G-d. Therefore, Hinduism is the religion of peace.

    Are you getting the idea? That is why I stick with the straight unvarnished Arabic, rather the derivations possible from it.

  • zingzing

    ruvy, you must admit that your “defintion” of islam is not going to be the most fair or balanced… you’re jewish, and your country is at war with several elements of islam. there are a billion muslims in the world, and the most of them are peaceful. those muslims that are at war with your people probably see you much the same way you see them… as unwitting fools under the spell of evil, malicious leaders. and for that you (and they) deserve to die?

    no religion is “the” religion of peace. a religion might be peaceful. and, i would say that most people are peaceful. you seem to say the same thing when you say, “They [the Wahhabi] are not the majority of Moslems…” even if they are becoming influential. let’s face it, islam is under attack. with articles like these and the a large majority of the western world backing israel over islam… it’s not a good time to be a muslim.

    ruvy, i agree with you in several ways. but you write like your word is gospel, which it is not. it comes across as arrogant and all-knowing, which it isn’t. your view is skewed, (as is mine, but in less obvious ways,) and you need to take it down a few notches if you want to reach people. if you have to repeat yourself “20 times,” then obviously it’s something that you are doing, not the other way around. your preaching is blocking your message.

  • Dawn

    Aaman, you are right, the number of good Muslims does indeed outweigh the bad. I don’t think I meant or wanted to imply the opposite. What I should have said was that until the vocal number of good Muslims outweigh the physical actions of the bad, we will have violence, and subsequently we will have growing mistrust and fear from the West.

    I like to think I am a reasonable person when it comes to accessing a whole group of people as either good or bad. Clearly, it’s neither fair nor reasonable to judge the actions of a few and superimpose it on the whole as a respresentation of the entire group.

    But I also know there is ZERO doubt that the only people who can turn this ship of fools who have hijacked Islam around to be Muslims themselves. This has to be a consolidated and united front where Muslims stand arm and arm and turn their back and reject this form of radical Islam wholly and fully.

    This has not happened. It may not ever happen. People have to be pretty evolved to come together for a common good, and we are not exactly an evolved species in this area.

  • Santa Barbara

    Ok, so, we have hear a people just as ignorant as Pat Robertson, wow. The Crusades – Christians killing Muslims and Jews in the name of God. Now that that’s cleard up, let’s move to what Islam is. I grew up in a predominantly Muslim society. I even went to a private Muslim school. Learning about other beliefs was always emphasized. I have read the Old Testament, the New Testament, and the Quran. The Old Testament has equal amounts, if not more, of punishment and cursing towards the Pagans, or in our times, the non-believers. The New Testament is mainly of peace, but if you look at who the writers were and the time it was written, it is obviously clear that some committee arbitrarily put the book together.

    Although there are some words of harshness towards evil people in the Quran, the majority of the religion teaches peace. An all out attack on the religion is just pure hatred and ignorance. Do your reading people! Islam contains forms of feminism, meditation, and trascendence. Islam teaches tolerance. Under Islamic rule in Spain, the Christians and Jews flourished. But this ended when the Christians came back and kicked all the Jews and Muslims out. Anyways, the point in all this is that Islam is not a religion of hatred or violence, almost no religion is. It is the people who ruin purity. We are all humans here and we all do stupid things, but the main religions of the world supposedly comes from God, and he is righteous.

    If you guys want to look more at peace in Islam check out some Sufi books. Or maybe read about the main tenants of Islam (the five pillars and the same 10 commandments in Christianity and Judaism). Also, check out the organization MPAC. They are one of the major Muslim organizations that are speaking out against all this violence going on. These are educated people who publish journals on these kinds of things all the time, but because Muslims are a minority, their works are not distributed across the country. Be educated and careful to not let the media brainwash you. Salam (this mean PEACE in Arabic).

  • http://musical-guru.blogspot.com/ Michael J. West

    Fair enough, Ruvy.

    Actually, you’re kinda making one point for me with the first part of your comment in #29. To my way of thinking, one must either accept all religions as “religions of peace,” or admit that no religion is truly a “religion of peace.”

    I choose to do the former. I believe that at their core, every belief system strives for peace; I refuse to let the .0001 percent of Muslims who are burning embassies define that religion for the other 1.499 billion. Regardless of how vocal the violent ones are.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I’m not kidding about the crusades…they were started to push back the advances of Muslims into what was believed to be christian territory…look it up…you people tell me I need to get educated???

  • zingzing

    religion creates followers. “sheep,” if you will, a flock for the shepards to manipulate. if they are willing to follow a religion, they will follow their religious leaders.

    it doesn’t matter if it’s islam, christianity, judaism or scientology. in the wrong hands, religion can be dangerous.

  • zingzing

    andy, the crusades lasted hundreds of years. maybe they were started by a muslim advance, but the last few (like 2-6) took place nowhere near traditional christian lands. i’m not saying the christians are totally to blame. both are responsible.

    your reasoning is that of a child. “he started it!” whatever.

    you need to relearn a lot of things.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I know you folks don’t like wikipedia…

    But it’s the easiest and usually nuetral source…

    On the Crusades The immediate cause of the First Crusade was Alexius I’s appeal to Pope Urban II for mercenaries to help him resist Muslim advances into territory of the Byzantine Empire. In 1071, at the Battle of Manzikert, the Byzantine Empire had been defeated, and this defeat led to the loss of all but the coastlands of Asia Minor (modern Turkey). Although the East-West Schism was brewing between the Catholic Western church and the Greek Orthodox Eastern church, Alexius I expected some help from a fellow Christian. However, the response was much larger, and less helpful, than Alexius I desired, as the Pope called for a large invasion force to not merely defend the Byzantine Empire but also retake Jerusalem.

  • zingzing

    andy, where do you live that you don’t run into muslims every day? have they ever killed you? hit you? even looked at you funny?

    when’s the last time you heard about muslim on christian violence in america? now reverse that.

    your three examples of muslims being peaceful:
    3/13/06, 3/12/06, 3/11/06.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I didn’t bring up the crusades…YOU DID! They are ancient history.

    My whole point before YOU bought up ancient history was it doesn’t matter what anybody did hundreds of years ago. What matters is what happens today. It’s the 21st century and you don’t fire bomb buildings for FUCKING cartoons.

    Where is the moral outrage from the MILLIONS of moderate Muslims?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    “ruvy, you must admit that your “defintion” of islam is not going to be the most fair or balanced… you’re jewish, and your country is at war with several elements of islam.”

    I haven’t heard any Moslems argue with my definition. Have you? A number of times, I have addressed Molems telling them that this is how I view them – and I get no arguments. The definition comes from a scholar of Islam, Dr. Asher Eder, and was agreed to by a Sufi scholar, Sheikh Prof. Abdulhadi Palazzi. I do not mention Mohammed in the definition (most Moslems would, as a matter of course) because it would then make it problematic for a Moslem to then claim Abraham to be a Moslem, which all Moslems do.

    A different definition of Islam, which unfortunately some Jews have convinced themselves of, is that it is essentially a pagan religion worshipping the moon god. I would suggest that Jews accepting this definition would be strongly influenced by the fact that we are at war with a number of Arab countries.

    In spite of my views, I do not hold this view of Moslems at all. I believe that there will be a reconciliation between Jews and Arabs spearheaded on a religious basis, not a political one.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Good dates to pick zing…didn’t they just find 87 bodies in a mass grave in Bagdhad? Muslims being peaceful.

  • zingzing

    whatever. they are ancient history. that you paint as the muslim’s fault. done.

    you don’t firebomb buildings for cartoons, and you don’t paint 1.4 billion for the actions of a few, okay?

    i don’t know where the moderate muslims are. probably pretty offended by both sides… probably staying out of it. they’d rather not get anyone angry.

  • http://musical-guru.blogspot.com/ Michael J. West

    Andy, did you read the last sentence of that Wikipedia quote?

    However, the response was much larger, and less helpful, than Alexius I desired, as the Pope called for a large invasion force to not merely defend the Byzantine Empire but also retake Jerusalem.

    The Crusades were, according to the very text you provided, not just a defense of the Byzantine Empire. They were the result of the Pope suddenly deciding that he could use Muslim incursions into Byzantium as an excuse to invade Jerusalem, which by then had been in Muslim hands for 400 years.

    And even if they WERE just a defense of the Byzantine Empire, then the Empire itself would deserve at least as much blame as the Muslims, being that they were unable to defend their own territory enough to win the Battle of Manzikert.

  • http://musical-guru.blogspot.com/ Michael J. West

    It’s the 21st century and you don’t fire bomb buildings for FUCKING cartoons.

    I think we’re approaching this the wrong way here. I don’t think this is about modern times; it’s about the relative maturity of a religion.

    Islam is now about 1,350 years old.

    When Christianity was 1,350 years old, it was embroiled in Crusades and Inquisitions, Holy Wars and internal battles.

    Much like Islam today.

    Perhaps ANY religion at about that age would exhibit these kinds of behaviors, no matter WHAT century it is. After all, 13-year-old children in 2006 act the same way (immaturely) as 13-year-old children did in 1406. Why should it be a surprise that 1300-year-old religions in 2006 act the same way as 1300-year-old religions in 1406?

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Again, should it really matter who started it all and why? Looks like the Muslims AND the Christians BOTH lost Jerusalem! It apparently does matter, but should it?

    Are the crusades what got the Danish embassies bombed? Are they what got the train in Madrid bombed or the London subway or the World Trade Center? No, it was wild animals on the loose and someone needs to cage their pets!

    I don’t doubt that there are peaceloving Muslims in the world…alot of them for that matter…but you are your brothers keeper, whether you like it or not.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    That’s probably a very true statement Michael.

  • zingzing

    i said “in america,” andy, didn’t i? you wanted examples of muslims being peaceful. there you go. how many americans murdered americans in the past few days? quite a few. but most were peaceful. your brush is too big. every day, most muslims the world over are 100% peaceful, going about their day. what’s happening in iraq isn’t normal, and i think u.s. actions have plenty to do with the fact that civil war is on its way.

    ruvy–point taken. still, your views on the muslim world have to be taken with a grain of salt. i don’t trust you to be 100% fair, and i can see why you wouldn’t be. i wouldn’t be either. i’m probably not. the more you protest, the more i doubt.

  • Logician

    So many words to read….so many opinions. Here’s a couple more: Sir Arthur C. Clark said, “One of the greatest tragedies in human history was the hijacking of morality by religion.”

    And Susan B. Anthony (1820-1906) said, “I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.”

    I have long been of the opinion that ALL religions were invented in order to gain power over others. It is also my firm belief that religion has done more harm to humanity than anything else.

    I expect the sheep will want to kill me for my views.

  • zingzing

    looks like andy may be coming around… i made the same point as mike does in #45 in my comment #15, which he dismissed quite easily.

    four hours! keep pushing!

  • zingzing

    religion is the product of mind-altering drugs and/or malnutrition.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    and I said it was time to catch up and I still think it’s time to catch up…

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I’d say I agree more with Logician than anyone…I felt that religion was a controlling thing in peoples lives most of my life…I’ve probably been subjected to more religion than a lot of people in this country and I stepped away from it a long time ago.

  • Baronius

    Andy, good luck educating a modern audience on the Crusades. People have too many preconceptions. One needs an understanding of the sweep of history to understand the Crusades.

    For example, the Muslims “were” in Jerusalem, and the Christians tried to drive them out. They succeeded, but then somehow the Muslims “were” back in Jerusalem. The Muslims “were” in Spain, almost “were” in Vienna, “were” in Byzantium. The Christians responded to this were-ness by trying to drive them out.

    Maybe the problem is that in the last 50 years, the Muslim advance in the West has been non-violent. Maybe people think that Islam has always advanced through passports and prison conversions. Thanks to our public schools, Americans don’t understand the spread of Islam (or anything pertaining to religious history).

  • Baronius

    At the end of the day, even after “Piss Christ,” Christianity was still the dominant religion in the United States controlling all aspects of government policy making from the local to federal level. Muslims don’t have the benefit of any of this. Instead, they have a white Christian controlled government opressing them on a worldwide scale.

    Ben, let’s compare “Piss Christ” to the Dutch cartoons.

    “Piss Christ” was a work of art in a Christian country, protected by the government. The Dutch cartoons were produced in a (nominally) Christian country. Imagine a similar anti-Muslim work of art produced in Saudi Arabia. The artist would be executed by the government.

    In the West, “Piss Christ” recieved a mixed reaction, although it energized a section of the electorate. I don’t know of any reaction in Arab countries. In the West, the Dutch cartoons recieved a mixed reaction, and were rarely duplicated out of respect for Islam. In Arab countries, there were riots and murders.

    The West was unfazed by “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” being broadcasted in Egypt. I think there’s a big difference: Americans don’t care what other people think of them, for better or worse. The Arab street seems obsessed with international perception.

  • Bustyn

    Why don’t we hear any prominent followers of Islam condemning the so called “radical muslims”, if the radicals are really in the minority? Seriously, when Robertson says something that is inconsistent with the Christian faith, you hear many many prominent Christian leaders condemning him. Why doesn’t this happen in the Islamic community when the “radicals” behave in the most violent of ways? One can only conclude that it’s because their activity is silently condoned if not encouraged by the remaining members in general.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Bustyn – Maybe you should learn Arabic. These guys do argue, but in the language of the Qur’an. And their style of argumentation is different to what you are used to.

    For the most part Moslem scholars are trying to reach their own adherents, not you, and the same goes for non-scholars who enter into the debate.

    You might want to look at the deeper pages of the Al Jezeera web-site inwtead of just what is featured as headline news on Google or CNN. Also, you could check out Desicritics. You’d be surprised what you find…

    Not every Moslem is a bearded idiot screaming death to the Great Satan.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Baronius, you wrote, “The West was unfazed by “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” being broadcasted in Egypt.”

    Maybe you should have amended that to “the Christian West.”

    We Jews were fazed. And pissed off.

    Maybe destroying a few mosques and firebombing Egyptian embassies (or gutting the one in Tel Aviv) is the only thing that Arabs do understand.

    Also, I couldn’t help noticing that in your “sweeping vistas of history” discussing the Crusades, the fact that basically crusaders sharpened their swords murdering Jews as they wended their ways to Jerusalem got passed over.

    Not that I’m surprised…

  • Dave Nalle

    Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. That applies to Robertson’s stopped brain as well.

    Dave

  • ahy

    Chrstians kill alot more people than muslims. and thats a fac. and for every violent crime commited by muslims i can give you 10 commited by Chrstians.

  • Ahab

    [quote] Andy, good luck educating a modern audience on the Crusades. People have too many preconceptions. One needs an understanding of the sweep of history to understand the Crusades.[/quote]

    Yes, indeed one does. One needs to understand that, in the noble spirit of the Crusades, they decided to pay a friendly visit to Constantinopole in 1204, and took the oportunity to sack it, bringing the Byzantium to the point of collapse. It wasn’t a pretty sight, let me tell you, but it was quite a loot. Pay a visit to San Marco in Venice, it looks awfully “eastern” for some reason. But I guess it’s all fine; after all it was an attempt (failed) to civilize those barbaric and pagan “easterners” as well, which weren’t much better than the muslims or the jews anyways. Ironic is that, while suposedly defended the christianity from the muslims, the Crusdes accomplished exactly the opposite: they ralied the pretty much scattered muslims against a common enemy and weakend beyond recovery Byzantium, making it much easier for Mehmed to conquer it in 1453. Of course, when real defense agains the muslim invasion was in question (in XIII century), the westerners didn’t bother that much; it was after all about those schismatics in the east which refuse to kiss our holly father pinky ring.
    I suggest you read some real history on the crusdes and not the ones published by the Vatican.
    But one poster (I forget which one) is right this wasn’t then (and it isn’t now) really about the teaching of a certain religion but rather about using the religion to achieve whatever social or political end.
    Appologies for possibly bad english….

  • http://nodhimmitude.blogspot.com dag

    Most of what I read above is opinion based on little or nothing to do with history or reason. You might like to look at the books shown at the top of the page, maybe even read them, and perhaps think about what you read.

    Those who care to express opinions on this topic of Islam as a religion of peace might like to read any number of transaltions of the Qur’an, all of which are more or less the same, forget the nonsense that not reading it in Arabic nullifies the undeerstanding. It’s violent, incoherent tripe in any language.

    And once one has waded through the rubbish that is the Qur’an, there comes the task of dealing with what is valid and what is abrogated. “there is no complusion in Islam” is abrogated by sura 9:5. “kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. Smite them at the neck and cut off their fingertips.”

    Once one has read the whole damned thing there is still the problem of making sense of any of it, which means turning to the ahadith for clarifications not availabe t the average reader. Even there one finds strong, medium, and weak hadiths. The strong consistently across the four schools of Islamic law all promote and even demand violence against non-Muslims.

    Then, once one has gotten through the crap that is not allowed to change or be interpreted for close to 1,000 years, there comes the time when one is forced todeal with oneself as one is as a person:

    Are you honest or are you someone who truly wishes to follow the crowd and let others do you thinking for you so you’ll never be stressed out mentally or live in fear of seeming out of popular poses?

    Do you truly want to play games of lazy and dispicable moral equivelence by writing that the Bible and the Gita are just as violent as the Qur’an? If you do then you are the loser, and there is no further help for you unless honesty is someday something you value more than the love of the fools around you who applaud like seals at the aqurium when you hold up a rotten fish.

    You can find out about the history of Islam from reputable sources if it’s important to you. You won’t like it. Or you can read the paper and listen to the taqqiya of whoever is the day’s popular spinner. The price of living a lie is pretty steep. It might come to being the price of your life.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Andy says,

    “…I know I’m full of shit, that’s why my eyes are brown.”

    At last!! Someone who comprehends the intricate relationships between genetics and faeces. Take a bow, me boy, there are damned few as wise as you. Only, uh, don’t leave another “deposit” in the process. ;-)

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Ruvy – my blue eyed father always tells me that’s why my eyes are brown…I figured…Dad wouldn’t lie to me!

  • http://jpsgoddamnblog.blogspot.com JP

    Let’s not kid ourselves–we can’t paint all Muslims with the same brush, or we have to call all Christians Muslim hating lunatics for what some Americans are doing right now to behave prejudicially toward Muslims.

    Yes, the illogic of that statement is intended to illustrate how out of touch Robertson is. After his comments about wanting justices to die, and how New Orleans flooded to clean out the sin, he doesn’t deserve respect.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Andy, no matter how full of shit my kids are, I can’t tell them that. They have the grey blue eyes of their mom and dad…

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Chris, I had a ten paragraph answer that I just managed to lose by hitting the wrong key…

    I’ll have to get back to this.

  • Gabriel

    Robertson was saying what most Americans think. Not all Americans, but most of us are tired of the religion of peace line. Other than that Robertson is a nut.

  • http://www.communistvampires.com/author.htm Thomas M. Sipos

    There are, what, about a BILLION MUSLIMS in the world? How many are involved in terrorism? Hundreds? Maybe thousands at most? That’s still 0.0001% of the total.

    Yes, there are savage statements in the Koran. But so too in the Old Testament.

    Nor do a billion Muslims seek to take over the world. They are a billion individuals, same as everyone else.

    To deny them, or anyone else, their individuality is anti-libertarian, anti-American, anti-conservative, and anti-Christian.

  • zingzing

    muslims are not inherently bad people. islam is not any worse than any other religion.

    bad people use islam to work up emotional, radical responses, and you have fallen for it. you are being manipulated.

    what this post has to say is bordering (actually, it’s running right across that border,) on bigotry.

    tolerance is a good thing. understanding that what one muslim person does does not reflect what all muslim people do is pretty fucking simple. that’s a fucked up sentence.

  • Mark

    Actually studies show that about 10% of Muslims are of the violent stripe. The real problem with Islam is that it IS rooted in violence. The Koran lists the pillars necessary to be a good practicing Muslim. One of those pillars is jihad, it is required that you try to convert people by the sword. Just look at what happened to north Africa in the two centuries after Mohammad “recieved” the Koran from Allah. What is interesting is the fact that the Muslims who are practicing their faith best are the most violent. We should either get rid of Muslims or make it mandatory that Muslims have to be only moderate, marginal, cafeteria Muslims.

    Islam is rooted in violence. The religion itself is rooted in violence. To say that not all Muslims are violent misses the point, they may not be violent in action, but they hold to a belief system which requires violence in order to be pious.

    While the best Muslims are the most violent, conversely the best Catholics are the most peaceful. This juxaposition shows Islams essentially evil nature and Catholicisms divine nature.

  • Mark

    Tolerance doesnt mean that everyone is right, no matter what they believe because they choose to believe in it. Some things are right and others are wrong. Its called objective truth and it does exist. It is not intolerant to say that someone else believes in something that is wrong. Otherwise, what would teachers be, except really intolerant people.

  • gonzo marx

    Andy..i’m ashamed and greatly disappointed in you for this Article…

    your whole position on this Thread has been semantically, symbolically and logically the exact same as if you said

    “what is with these Jersey folks? the Mafia guys kill people, and they are from Jersey…therefore all Jersey folks are evil Mafia guys that kill people and i hate them…”

    bah….

    Excelsior!

  • Bliffle

    Western people will continue to distrust Islam until it displays the ability to deal with it’s radical elements. Until then, the West will perceive Islam as lacking internal control and requiring outside control. That’s the bloody result of inaction.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    gonzo – I’ve said it several times in the comment section…until the moderates of this religion are louder than the extremists…I’ll never consider this religion peaceful.

  • gonzo marx

    so…until Italians from Jersey are louder than the Sopranos or the Godfather …then all Jersey folks are mafia killers…

    i get ya, and agree with the basic Thought…just not your broad brush sterotyping ALL 1 billion plus Muslims for the actions of a handful

    you say you want them to speak louder? can the guy from Bloomfield talk louder to someone in Dubai than the Godfather?

    fucking spare me the straw men

    i’m still disappointed…

    Excelsior!

  • http://desicritics.org Aaman
  • zingzing

    mark– give us a link to your 10% study. and is jihad really one of the pillars of islam?

  • Mark

    Jihad is listed in the Koran as one of the pillars of Islam and I got the 10% (and I realize simply saying this name discredits me) from the O’Rielly Factor, but I’m pretty sure he researched it before he made that statement.

  • zingzing

    aaman–there are many good points in that article, especially, “declaring Islam as a fundamentally incorrect, evil religion is just about as extreme and radical as al-Qaeda urging all Muslims to do Jihad against America.”

  • zingzing

    yeah, you’d better find a source better than the o’rielly factor. he probably DIDN’T research it.

    i’m looking for the pillars of islam right now…

  • zingzing

    um… yeah… jihad is NOT one of the five pillars… there’s the profession of faith, prayer, fasting, charity, and the pilgrimage… where’s jihad, mark?

  • zingzing

    ahh… from wikipedia: “A few Muslims, mainly belonging to the sect of the Khawarij, hold that there is a sixth pillar of Islam, jihad literally meaning “struggle” or “combat.” Often understood to refer to holy war, this is viewed by many as a misinterpretation, especially in the sense of conversion by sword; however, if the English use of “war” is meant spiritually/metaphysically (such as being “at war” with one’s conscience), as opposed to literal armed conflict, it is considered to be the most precise and accurate translation.”

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    gonzo – it’s not the people…it’s the book…and as long as a book that calls for holy war against unbelievers is around…and it’s my understanding that there are over 100 passages in the Qu’ran calling for jihad against unbelievers, this religion will be a problem…

    One of the excuses I keep hearing about why I’m not hearing enough moderate muslims is because I don’t speak arabic…well, you know what? Neither do half of those 1.6 billion muslims that like me, aren’t hearing it either.

    There will always be a handful that can hi-jack the religion again…

  • http://desicritics.org Aaman

    Quoting a snippet from the most recent comment by the author of that post I linked to:

    …BTW, if you’ve already decided that we’re all evil and killers, you might as well suggest what should be done in response? I suppose your options would be a)too kill as all at once b)to kill us one by one, gradually c)do not kill us, but deprive us socially, economically, etc etc…

    Please note that I am not suggesting any of you will do so, or that you should. Merely hypothezingy. I’m just wondering, exactly what your aggenda is, after establishing Islam as the problem and declaring it as the root cause of all evil and unrest in the world, where do you go from here? Just wondering, that’s all.

    Sic transit gloria mundi…

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    We could always go with Ann Coulter…kill all their leaders and convert the rest to Christianity???

    It’s a valid question Aaman and I’m not sure I have the answer.

    Should we do what is being demanded of us? Make sure that everything in print and any other media isn’t offensive before it’s put out there? Do we need some kind of council to evaluate news and commentary to make sure it doesn’t offend any more musims?

    You tell me? How do you handle a group of people that burn down buildings over cartoons? That behead people like Tom Fox that are in their country to help them…People that blow up churches where people are worshipping Allah? How do you deal with people like this? How do you deal with people that believe that the holiest thing they can do is die for their religion?

  • Steve

    I think it’s important to realise, as in most religious traditions, there are various ways in which to practice one’s religion vis a vis the Govt. One’s political philosophy will determine how a person’s religion will manifest itself politically.

    As I understand it, the current Islamic terrorists’ political philosophy developed in the late 19th century. It’s the political philosophy that needs to be debunked, not the religion per se. Muslim moderates in the western world have largely proven their religion can be peaceful in the past, like I say, all depends on the political philosophy more than anything.

  • http://human-interface.blogspot.com/ gazelle

    I dont know any violent muslims, but i might have met some, and not known about it. but ive seen a lot of tv. I dont know how that counts.

    If you are 20 and listening to robertson and served in the navy, i’d say you still have many surprising and interesting people to meet …

    and most muslims do not speak or understand arabic …. in fact arabs/arabic speakers are a minority among them …

    also i’m sorry the burden is not on muslims to prove that they are this or that.

    The real inconvenient burden is for those who know little about muslims to get to know them….

    …a little sharper civility rather evil incarnate blunt demonization …

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    gazelle – you misread that…I’m not 20…I did 20. I’ve been to the Middle East and Europe and Japan and South America and Central America. I’ve met plenty of interesting people.

    But I say that it is on the people that practice this religion to rein in the ones that have hi-jacked it. Just like you see people in the western world putting down the likes of robertson and falwell and other assholes like that…I expect to see Muslims putting down Osama and his buddies…not wearing t-shirts with his picture on them or dancing in the streets whenever an infidel is killed in the name of jihad.

  • MCH

    Come one, gazelle, get with it…he’s only repeated those “20 years in the navy” about 2,000 times…

  • http://human-interface.blogspot.com/ gazelle

    okay.

    2 things:

    one: islam says no violence unless in defence, forgive, take care of neighbors etc etc

    two: the extremists understand that ‘islam’ or ‘muslims’ whatever their understanding of these are, are under threat, and therefore need defending thru violence. (still a simplistic view)

    ++++

    Understanding this will go a long way in learning about the subject matter of what this article is trying to address but failing to do so.

    for example exploring questions like why are muslims thrteatened. by what, whom. according to who. what is the worldview of the particular group that thinks like this….

    and believe me there are many different answers, and would not make a neat little post.

    best

  • http://human-interface.blogspot.com/ gazelle

    yep, i misread that ’20 year vet’ wondering wow early retirement.

    sorry about that.

    I know for sure that usama is condemned by most, but then there is wwf or … and some people go yaaah. that s all there is to it for most people but the insults are real.

    best

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I guess in MCH’s eyes, I’m not allowed to be proud of that fact. I’d call it the third biggest accomplishment of my life…but hey, he’s got an attitude problem anyway.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Look, I get what some of you are trying to say…but I’m actually reading one of those books that I picked that BC makes you hawk here…hehe…and it’s really kinda scary!

    Koontz or King coulda wrote this shit!

    I’m put off by most religions anyway, but this one…and the more I read about organized religion…any organized religion the more put off I get.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Nice to see you at long last Gazelle. It was hard making those points of mine without a little backup…

    Please help me out on one small point, if yu would? I thought that all Moslems had to learn Arabic becasue it was forbidden to teach the Qur’an in any other language. Am I wrong? Is this changed?

    Reuven

  • Logician

    I came across that cartoon of Mohammed that’s causing all the insane protests. I printed it up, enlarged it and pasted it on my target sheet to use when I go to the gun range. It has improved my aim considerably. I sure hope this does not offend any Muslims or other idiots.

    Sincerely, Pagan and Proud of it

  • Dave Nalle

    Hey, that’s a good idea, Logician. Way more fun than just shooting at Osama.

    Dave

  • zingzing

    kill! has anyone even taken a shot at osama? i mean the real one… not some bit of paper. big men!

    when i go to the target range, i shoot at a picture of a dumb hick try to suck his own dick, while blowing his foot off as he struggles towards ecstacy. sometimes, i bring a picture of a hunter in orange clothing… the sun at his back… the field grass blowing around his knees… it’s so romantic…

  • Dave Nalle

    Hey zing, where can I get that picture? Sounds like fun.

    And I’m pretty sure Osama isn’t volunteering to stand and get shot in gun ranges, but if he ever does I imagine someone will shoot him.

    Dave

  • zingzing

    i made it myself!

    i’m fuckin off for the keys for a week. have fun everybody.

    don’t judge anyone.

  • http://musical-guru.blogspot.com/ Michael J. West

    as long as a book that calls for holy war against unbelievers is around…and it’s my understanding that there are over 100 passages in the Qu’ran calling for jihad against unbelievers, this religion will be a problem…

    What about a book that calls for the execution of blasphemers? Would that religion be a problem?

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Yeah it would. They’re all a problem. How many blasphemers have been killed lately in the name of any other religion besides Islam?

  • nugget

    Notice what you just said, Andy.

    “in the name of religion”

    Religion or spirituality, in and of itself is not violent. EVIL MEN are.

    mmmmmk?

  • http://musical-guru.blogspot.com/ Michael J. West

    How many blasphemers have been killed lately in the name of any other religion besides Islam?

    Doesn’t matter. It’s the book itself that’s the problem, remember? Not the people who do what the book says.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Zingzing,

    when i go to the target range, i shoot at a picture of a dumb hick try to suck his own dick, while blowing his foot off as he struggles towards ecstacy.”

    I wish we had such nice pictures when we went for target practice… The scores would go up dramatically, even if the targets started to move rapidly. Just went a few days ago with the other police volunteers. Boring, boring. But I know I shoot well enough to kill anyone who approaches…

  • Baronius

    I imagine that we all bring our own biases into our reading of history. In my youth, I approached history with a fuzzy, “let’s get along” attitude toward the three great monotheistic religions. I instinctively favored Judaism, but respected all three. I’ve read a lot since then, reluctantly coming to the conclusion that there’s something sour in Islam.

    Yes, Ahab, I’ve read some Vatican-approved history (I’m not going to take that as an insult). And yes, Ruvy, I probably overlook anti-Semitism, because the idea is so foreign to me. It just seems so absurd, I have trouble believing it. I’ve been reading up automotive history recently, and wow, Henry Ford was nuts.

    The 1350 argument is fallacious. There’s no necessary timetable in the development of a religion. But for kicks, let’s compare contemporary Islam to 1300’s Christiandom. Where is Islam’s mendicant movement comparable to Dominic and Francis of Assisi? Where is the blossoming of literature in Muslim countries? The equivalents of Thomas a Kempis, Dante, and Chaucer? And the 1300’s saw the Scholastic movement in philosophy and theology. I don’t know of any budding Aquinas in Islam.

    The Crusades were often terrible and stupid. There’s no denying it. History illustrates plenty of good and bad periods in Christianity. The history of Islam has many more lows and fewer highs. Muslim societies have imploded far too often for it to just be a coincidence. Algebra is cool, but there hasn’t been much before or since.

  • http://jpsgoddamnblog.blogspot.com JP

    Gabriel, if that’s true (#68) then most Americans are idiots.

    Mark, how exactly do you propose to “make it mandatory that Muslims have to be only moderate, marginal, cafeteria Muslims.”? What if I said the following:
    “The world would be a lot better off if it were mandatory that Christians had to be only ‘moderate, marginal, cafeteria Christians’? After all, Christians perpetrated the Crusades, and modern Christians molest kids, burn abortion clinics and bomb Arab countries.”

    And Andy, Coulter is a Cun*. She needs to be burned at the stake on TV in my opinion.

  • http://desicritics.org Aaman

    , Baronius, your argument in #106 is invalid – Muslim societies kept the light burning during the Dark Ages, too tiresome to list their innovations, etc.

  • Mark

    JP, it was a joke to make my point. Point being, the most dangerous Muslims are the ones who do what Islam tells them to. My point was that if we are going to let people be Muslims, it would only be safe if we told them they could only be bad (marginal, cafeteria) Muslims. The same does not apply to Christians, because those Christians who bomb abortion clinics and molest children (non-Christians do this as well) are not following what Christianity prescribes.

  • MAOZ

    Some here have raised the point: If it’s just a tiny, evil, minority of Muslims doing the evil nasty stuff, why don’t we hear the moderate Muslim majority protesting?

    Reminds me of a DryBones cartoon I saw in the Jerusalem Post, many years back. It was in the wake of yet another Arab terrorist attack against Jews. So in the DryBones strip, 2 Jewish guys are talking. First 1 says, “All those demonstrations are so depressing.” 2nd guy says, “You mean those demonstrations by Jews expressing their grief and rage at the murder of their loved ones?” 1st guy says, “No, I mean the demonstrations by Arabs expressing their outrage over the shedding of innocent blood in their name.” 2nd guy: “But there weren’t any such dimonstrations.” 1st guy: “I know. That’s what’s so depressing….”

  • Logician

    MAOZ….Thanks for the cartoon (#110).
    Loved it!!!

  • Artistic Kinda

    Your assertion “They called it artistic excellence! You gotta be kidding me! Anyone can piss in a jar and throw a crucifix in it. What’s so excellent about that crap?” shows that you have not an ounce of desire to find out anything about which you are ignorant.You have made up your mind and don’t want the facts to get i the way.When Rush retires,you have a job already waiting for you

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    You’re absolutely right. I don’t have an ounce of desire to find out why someone would piss in a jar and submerge a crucifix in it. What facts could possibly make that art?

  • http://human-interface.blogspot.com/ gazelle

    ruvy rote:

    I thought that all Moslems had to learn Arabic becasue it was forbidden to teach the Qur’an in any other language. Am I wrong? Is this changed?

    As facts stand today fewer than 15% of muslims are arabs.
    Also among the ten most populous muslim countries only one (egypt) is arabic speaking. The muslim populations of these ten and what percentage this represents of the total country pop are:

    Indonesia…….182.2 m – 88%
    Pakistan……. .136.9 m – 97%
    Bangladesh…..115.0 m – 83%
    India………….108.6 m – 15% ?
    Iran…………….63.9 m – 98%
    Turkey………….61.0 m – 99%
    Egypt…………..51.6 m – 94%
    Nigeria………….40.2 m – 50%
    Algeria………….29.1 m – 99%
    China……………29.1 m – 2.4%

    but like anywhere else there are shades of religiosity. some are athieists, nominally-culturally muslim, some have only an idea of a higher deity full-stop, some agnostics, so there are people who never pray, dont know more than a few verses of the quran, let alone know the meaning of the arabic, and have plenty of other influences (as is normal)… and there are those who know the thing by heart, with footnotes cross referenced… and who are regular in putting together the ‘islamic’ way of life, some are muslims only on fridays, some have ideas about islam so different from others that they are isolationists and closed to outsiders … and some have rosary beads – plenty of material for caricaturing within literature by muslims and non.

    all this is complicated by the fact there are alternate – westernized – current – sytems of education, usually catering to the rather small upper to middle classes in these countries as in the rest of the third world, with notable exceptions.

    now lets see how many people (on average) in these countries are illiterate that is they cannot read or write, although definitions vary.

    Indonesia…..182.2 m – 15%
    Pakistan…….136.9 m – 50%
    Bangladesh…115.0 m – 60%
    India………..108.6 m – 40%
    Iran………….63.9 m – 25%
    Turkey……….61.0 m – 2%
    Egypt………..51.6 m – 30%
    Nigeria……….40.2 m – 35%
    Algeria……….29.1 m – 30%
    China………..29.1 m – 10%

    percent stats from Unesco tables 2004

    Conclusion: these ten countries have 827 million muslims out of the 1300 billion (old stats) and the illiteracy rates with the exception of indonesia and turkey are alarmingly high. Actual illiteracty rates are usuually higher than official ones, because the definition may be as trivial as writing your name or a letter in one’s own language.

    So it may not be wrong to say that about half the muslims actualy cannot read the quran and depend on others.

    They might have memorized part or whole of the quran and have an understanding of the principles and practices as taught to them orally – the understanding may or may not be adequate to the persons needs and may even be a social requirement.

    your statement that the quran ‘should be taught only in arabic’ does not make sense because for a native speaker of another language, a quranic verse would of course have to be exolained with references and background context, in the local language which the student or peer can understand.

    i think what you are referring to is the idea that the quran shoould be studied in the original arabic. This is the ideal and true of the religious-type of institutions – and more difficult to do in non-arabic speaking countries – the first step being the madrassa and going on to higher studies dar-ul-ulooms or howzas.

    but today actually most people even in villages prefer an english-based education, given the choice, even over their mother tongue or official national language, which might be different from both. And many would like to keep a balance between this type and the religious education – meaning being able to read/recite the quran at least, if not understand the arabic, and better if one understands it and knows the context, references, etc.

    However it is true that for most the quran’s meaning is accessible only through translations of varying scholarship in the native languages.

    This wouldn’t be so bad if the interpreters for the vast majority of the illiterate reciters were a little better educated, kept up with what’s going on in all spheres of life and had better standards to emulate.

    the relation of poverty to all this is another limiting/complicating factor for people as well as governments.

    and to other readers, i hope this counts in your counters as a rejection of extremism and a strong defence for better education/empowerment based on knowledge.

    best

  • gazelle

    correction to previous:
    1300 million or 1.3 billion

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Gazelle,

    Thank you

    I understood that only a minority of Moslems were Arabs. I had entirely forgotten to take illiteracy into account.

    Best

  • chip

    It seems like Islam just wants to be left alone. If it weren’t for the oil they have I doubt if the rest of the world would care about them at all.
    Its like the ” Amish” communities in Pennsylvannia. They just want to keep their seperate ways and identies. Seperating themselves from the ” unclean thing”. But the Amish are peaceful!!! Islam is armed and dangerous. Maybe they should be more like the Amish. And maybe we should get the hell out of THEIR country!! We never should have dipped our wicket in their oil pool, and THEY never should have been tempted in doing business with us infidels. They could have kept the oil all for themselves. Why did they let us in their country in the first place?

  • troll

    When you approach a Muslim anywhere with “Assalamu Alaikum” what response do you get – ?

    the beauty of Islam is in this Arabic greeting – a social form common to 1.3 billion people

    the sad thing about Islam is that the greeting is often as empty as a car salesman’s handshake

    Aaman – two points concerning #108…

    first – the concept of the “dark ages” in Europe has been more or less debunked as renaissance bigotry

    second – the Profit wasn’t born until the period of the “dark ages” was about half over…if you want to give credit for preserving the written tradition of the Greeks and Christians then give it to the pre-Islam Arabs

    troll

  • chip

    another idea was, why not (like how Israel welcomed all jews to be automatic citizens after WW11.) Make Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq and the other intollerant countries of Arabia, the world headquarters for all Muslims. So all the muslims from all over the world can get out and go there where they belong. We won’t bother them, and they can stay with each other over there. But no more of our ” unclean money and products, and no more of their unclean oil to be traded between us and them. We can all live happily ever after. What do you think? Or are the Arabic leaders a little concerned about making lots of profit from the so called “Infidels”?

  • troll

    dear Allah – I know that I got cute and called the Prophet the Profit but ya didn’t have to nuke the site

    troll

  • MCH

    “I guess in MCH’s eyes, I’m not allowed to be proud of that fact. I’d call it the third biggest accomplishment of my life…but hey, he’s got an attitude problem anyway.”

    But is it necessary to repeat it over and over, ad nauseam, like you’re the only person who’s ever made a career out of the military.

    There are hundreds of thousands vets – both men and women – who’ve sacrificed more than yourself, but you don’t see them bragging about it on the blogoshpere week after week, month after month.

    When my four years were up, I couldn’t wait to get out and get the freedom back to craft my own individualism.

  • MAOZ

    Chip (#117), excuse me but it seems to me that if all that Islam wanted was just to be left alone, it would never have appeared beyond the Arabian Penninsula.

    Islam was spread by the sword long before Westerners got all excited by slimy black stuff coming out of the earth.

    (Shabbat Shalom, Yehudim ahuvim!)

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    MCH – So, now I know that you have a problem with people that espouse war without ever having served and those that served and made a career out of it. You know damn well I don’t bring it up as much as you say. I bring it up when, in my opinion, the discussion warrants it or when someone like you calls me a chicken hawk. Along the same note, everyone here knows you have an issue with the war but you continue with your bullshit chicken hawk argument…so, what’s the difference? I can gaurantee that I haven’t typed on here that I’m career military as many times as you’ve typed chicken hawk. Is that what MCH stands for? Mr. Chicken Hawk?

  • http://drybonesblog.blogspot.om yaakov kirschen

    we in the West have this problem
    we use the word “religion” to define certain mass movements. We then assume that anything defined by us as a “religion” automatically includes a search for peace.

    if we included Nazism, Devil Worship, and the belief systems of head hunting tribes we would not make that automatic assumption.

    so Islam mde it into our category of “religion”
    so it must(?) be peaceful.
    i think not.

    Dry Bones
    Israel’s Political Comic
    Strip since 1973

  • http://human-interface.blogspot.com/ gazelle

    the islamic legacy cannot be separated from the western – this is a factual mistake many people make.

    arabia deserta had been a roman province, and where sheba dwelt?

    Instead of comparing levels and readiness for violence (preemptive strikes, bah), compare the accounts of the prophets in the torah, the new testament and the quran and you’ll start seeing the commonalities/differences and the prophetic tradition that continues and also comes to fruition with islam with specific reference to muhammad’s life.

    the emphasis on terror is of course misplaced and politically motivated against a particular political formation. All this of course has little to do with the religion, except exploitation of the religious emotion and fantasy.

    An anecdote about Frederick II of Sicily if you havent traced it yet.

    isn’t it in everyone’s interest to defuse the reasons which give rise to extremists on a global scale. must be some kind of large stupidity which can suddenly draw people from diverse corners to react like they have – or is it the global microcosm of the media village?

    the easy answer is not it.

    its not just muslims who react to things in the world. lets not forget leo strauss, tom paine, jefferson, rousseau, marx, iqbal, maududi, khomeini, mandela or havel.

    if jews can be from russian shtetls, and jesuits belgian, luther german, sun-moon korean, falwell from lynchburg VA, why not an ibn-arabi of murcia, an ibn hazm of cordoba and an abdullah of marseilles – when we know where moses, jesus and muhammad dwelt.

    new worlds do have to be created still – these other kinds of freedom need protection too.

    best

  • http://human-interface.blogspot.com/ gazelle

    Wolfe … says he believes in the same God as his Jewish father and his Christian mother.

    exactly the pov i espouse, had i been born in a different household… ancient glocalism

  • MCH

    “you continue with your bullshit chicken hawk argument…”

    And you continue with your bullshit “f—ing pacifist” argument with anyone who opposes the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I honestly don’t think pacifist is a word I use very often. I know I’ve never called you one. I’ve called you a lot of other things…but never a pacifist.

    What exactly is your problem with me anyway? What have I done to piss you off besides disagree with your chicken hawk argument…or is that all it takes? I haven’t commented on a war post in here in a while, but you seem to follow me around in here and make your snide little comments…are you the BC stalker?

  • http://www.codexalimentarious.com/ Richard Brodie

    zing: aaman–there are many good points in that article, especially, “declaring Islam as a fundamentally incorrect, evil religion is just about as extreme and radical as al-Qaeda urging all Muslims to do Jihad against America.”

    There is absolutely NO comparison.

    “declaring Islam as a fundamentally incorrect, evil religion” is nothing more than expressing an opinion, for Chrissake! Urging Muslims to go slaughter the infidels is genocide. It’s the same kind of a difference as expressing your opinion than Bush is a dangerous idiot, and picking up a gun with the intention of assasinating him.

    The fact that you regard equating these two things as making a “good point” just shows how utterly fucked up the Muslim mind is, and why Islam has no place whatsoever in the modern civilized world.

  • http://musical-guru.blogspot.com Michael J. West

    That last sentence might make sense, Richard, if Zing was a Muslim. Which he isn’t.

  • mark bey

    Hello everybody my namd is Mark the major problem with the world now and past is religionl. Think of how many people have been killed in the name of ( insert standard religion here), than for any other reason. Now someone mentioned that moderate muslims need to speak out against extremeism. Where were those moderate christian voices when white southerners were taken away american black citizens constitionally promised rights, allowing white people in the south to commit any immoral and unconstitional act they wanted against black people including rape and murder. This inhumane treatment only stopped 40 years ago, and oh yes the south was supposedly a christian society. Mark

  • Josh

    Most conflicts have nothing to do with religion at all. Ultimately, it all comes down to the Haves vs. the Have-Nots.

  • Waleed

    Pat Robertson has a filthy brain with nothing good in it
    and it is no wonder that if he went on again saying something
    against Islam.

    Regarding the Column writer i initially thought he is a
    confused person and needs some guidance & who is also
    seeking for a list so here is a v short list of 15 Muslims Individuals
    that world knows.

    ( You may pick 3 of your choice and if need more names i’ll provide u laters.)

    1.Doctor Genius: Zakir Naik

    2.Sheikh Yusuf Estes

    3.Ex Pop Sensation: Yusuf Islam aka Cat Stevens

    4.Ahmed Deedat

    5.Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi

    6.Renowned female Scholar: Aminah Assilmi

    7.Adnan Oktar aka Harun Yahya

    8.Sir Syed Ahmed Khan

    9.Former Prime Minister of Malaysia: Mahathir bin Mohamad

    9.Greatest Sports Person of all Time: Muhammad Ali

    10.The Handsome Cricketer Legend: Imran Khan

    11.Football Hero: Ali Daei

    12.Football Great: Zinedine Zidane

    13.Squash Immortal: Jehangir Khan

    14.Greatest Basketball Player: Kareem Abdul Jabbar

    but later what i discovered
    in his comments ref #22 that he has lost his mind
    and just like all others in the west, is victimised by the
    media propaganda and hatred against Islam & muslims.
    and just for the sake of the say he
    never used a thing known as ‘brain’ but showed his
    frustration.

    Regarding Christians and their reaction on “Piss Christ”
    i would just say when religion doesnt exist in a society
    and also not practised by a large majority then whocares about
    if 1oo’s of ‘Piss Christ’appear.

    Killing over blasphemous caricatures has a background to look
    at before opening one’s mouth.

    I strongly condomn the violance
    took place but did any-1 looked up why all this had happend?

    Most of the Western media didnt talk and covered initial peaceful
    protests that took place all over the world that is the main reason of
    ur unawareness.

    In majority of Muslim countries there is ‘NO’ place for
    public voice and freedom, leaders who are ruling them
    are religionless & nothing but appointed men
    by the west and U.S for maintaining their influence and interest.
    and it is a historical fact now.

    Thus, it is a natural reaction that when your sentiments are deeply hurted
    and your voice isnt heard and u dont get the justice what u do? violence is
    the reaction and the same had happened.

    West calling Islam & muslims extremist and terrorists because of the acts of
    few individuals so should i call the same for christanity if i see Adolf Hitler
    and G.W.Bush ?

    saying it is not against Islam and muslims is a foolish statemtent.
    and bombing is done for what? Peace LOL
    it is like fucking for virginity

    Zingzing#20

    “bush never did anything in the name of christianity (although god does tell him what to do he says),
    but that doesn’t matter. it’s all about how the extremist muslims twist it.
    like you twist their violence into a hatred-filled diatribe against all muslims.”

    i totally agree with the views of Zingzing,

    Ruvy # 14
    “Let me make this real simple for everybody.
    ISLAM IS NOT THE RELIGION OF PEACE.
    ISLAM MEANS COMPLETION THROUGH SUBMISSION TO G-D.”

    Mr.Ruvy highly need to educate himself as he doesnt know much about Islam
    Islam is a religion of peace that means that a person submits his will to
    the will of God. That he is ready to sacrifice all his desires for the will of God.
    and if you read Qo’ran u’ll know what Islam really is. shaping your opinion
    after watching few individuals who r the result of U.S and western policies is
    totally absurd.

    This Osama and Jihadis were the BEST thing when USSR was there, for U.S and for the west.
    they trained them, supported them militarized them and after their objectives accomplished
    left them, now the same are the terrorists and naming them as the reflection of Islam
    is muslim extremism ?
    LOL is there anything exist known as ‘character’ ?

    The issue of caricatures making a slogan that it is the freedom of speech!
    Hurting sentiments of the huge muslim world is what freedom of speech?
    tell those lunatics if freedom is without responsibility how can peace prevail?
    freedom without responsibility develop Wildness and it made west WILD Animals.

    If some-1 says anything against Samitic’s belief of Holocaust he is punished
    as a man recenty got sentence in Austria.

    All sources of terrorism belongs to Israel, U.S & the west.

    The slogan of ‘Freedom of Speech’ doesnt apply there and if still your heads r dumb
    to understand what is happening with Muslims then i just can laugh on your mental health.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    YOu’re absolutely right about one thing Waleed. freedom without responsibility developes wildness. That would explain burning down embassies over cartoons. As far as your opinion on who and why the Crusades started…guess that’s the difference between the way your history was written and mine was…mine says that the Crusades were to push back Muslim advances…apparently yours was written a little differently.

    And of course, once again ladies and gentlemen, it’s the U.S.’s fault for all this terrorism…oh yeah…and Israels too! Time to throw in the BULLSHIT flag!

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    and as for your list…the only two names on there that I recognize are Casius Clay and Lew Alcindor!

  • ASH

    Islam: Misunderstood throughout the World the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) were sent to their respective people, as the Qur’an says: “We did indeed send, before you, Messengers to their (respective) people, and they came to them with clear signs.” ( Holy Qur’an, 30:47)
    Islam is a monotheistic religion, civilization and way of life now practiced by 1.5 billion people. Easily the world’s fastest growing religion, Islam is not confined to the Middle East
    Muslims see themselves as the afflicted, not the afflictors; they feel themselves desperately on the defensive, not on the offensive; they consider themselves the objects of violence, not the initiators of violence. In sum, Muslims across the world consider themselves victims. In support of their position, Muslims will take their Christian and Jewish neighbors on a quick tour of the world. They inevitably begin with Bosnia, where nearly 200,000 Muslims have been slaughtered by Serbian Christians. Muslims are horrified and sickened by the fact that 22,000 Muslim women, aged 9 to 82, have been raped by Christian troopers. Muslims wonder privately about the weak and very late Western response.

    In Kashmir, Indian occupying forces violently oppress Muslims, killing thousands of Kashmiris. Elsewhere in India in December 1992 and January 1993, violent Hindu mobs went on a rampage in Bombay, killing over 800 Muslims, destroying 5000 Muslim homes and forcing 200,000 Muslims to flee the city. Mosques were firebombed and mothers watched as their sons were pulled from their homes and slain or burned alive. In Tajikstan and other places in Central Asia, the Communists have made a comeback and, with the help of Russian troops, have attacked and killed more than 20,000 Muslims. Another 350,000 have been forced to flee.

    Even in China, Muslims find themselves under heavy military pressure. Chinese troops oppress Muslims in the western province of Xinjiang.

    Even in many of the predominantly Muslim countries of the Middle East, Muslims find themselves under attack where the leadership is essentially secular. In Iraq, Saddam Hussein continues his war of genocide against the Shi’ites in the south.

    In Algeria, when the Islamists scored a surprise victory in the December 1991 elections, the regime declared the election null and void. Since then, Algeria has been the scene of a bloody civil war. The government blames Islamic fundamentalists of striking terror in the very same areas where they had received majority of votes from. The governments explanation of fundamentalists unleashing waves of terror in their own strongholds, sounds very plausible indeed and casts shadows of dound over the credentials of the secular government instead.

    In Egypt, Hosni Mubarak’s regime, facing widespread disaffection of its people, pursues a policy of torture and execution of members of the Muslim opposition. In March 1993, his troops fired upon 500 unarmed Muslims at prayer in the Rahman Mosque in Aswan, killing nine and injuring 50. In the West Bank, another more widely publicized mosque massacre occurred a year later in Hebron when a Jewish settler killed 30 in a group of praying Muslims before the survivors could beat him to death. This litany of anti-Islamic violence is recognized and recited by Muslims everywhere. The situation is exacerbated when Muslims incredulously find themselves labeled as terrorists and when Western governments encourage their secular Middle Eastern allies to confront Muslim populist movements with brute force. One result of these Western perceptions and policies, of course, is that they begin to radicalize the huge mass of moderate Muslim believers. Meanwhile, the extremists on the fringes

  • ash

    This perception is not due to any intrinsic resentment of Islam by the American people. It is understood that the mainstream of Muslims, the vast majority of them, like in every other faith, is peaceful and pay their taxes, trying to make America a better society, trying to improve relations with neighbors and colleagues
    But images and terminology influence public opinion, and a bitter taste is left when Islam is reported in the daily headlines. The term “Islamic fundamentalism”, whatever it means, has been repeated enough times in relation to violent incidents that naturally, any thinking human being has to be uncomfortable with the fact that America is home to a vibrant Muslim community. The problem stems from negative images about Islam. In the court of public opinion, Islam is guilty until proven innocent.
    Even though the Middle East was home to fewer terrorist incidents than Latin America and Europe, for example, it is still regarded as the region where terrorism is rooted. According to a recent US State Department report, Patterns of Global Terrorism, issued earlier this year, 272 terrorist events occurred in Europe, 92 in Latin America and 45 in the Middle East. Sixty-two anti-US attacks occurred in Latin America last year, 21 in Europe and 6 in the Middle East. These numbers represent the terrorist trend and not an anomaly, whereby the majority of perpetrators are not linked to the Middle East or Islam. The Red Army Faction in Germany, the Basque Separatists in Spain, the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka, the Shining Path in Peru and the National Liberation Army in Columbia are not viewed with the same horror as terrorist groups of Muslim background.
    There is no moral justification for terrorism regardless of the ethnic or religious background of the perpetrator or the victim, but the factual basis of terrorism has been either hidden or twisted in the public’s perception of this policy problem, especially in congressional hearings on terrorism. The countries with the worst terrorist records in the world are not in the Middle East either. They are not even Muslim countries outside the Middle East. They are Columbia and Germany, havens for drug lords and neo-Nazis.
    The negative association of Islam with terrorism exists, but no one has ever asked “Why?”. Could it be that American society cannot overcome the Khomeini phobia, even though he is dead? The US Congress found it necessary to push $20 million towards covert operations in toppling the Iranian government even at the dissent of people in the CIA. The Arab countries, both friend and foe, are run by tyrants who kill more of their own people than those outside their countries. The presumption that these countries represent a threat to American interests or that any one of them can dominate the region or even rival the only remaining superpower is indeed generous. So the issue is not these countries’ hegemony in their region or the world, but about who can dominate their people and exploit their resources. The perception in the Middle East is that US policy does not serve the peoples interests; it protects Israel and friendly Arab dictators even when they violate human rights, while it slaps sanctions on and takes military actions against countries whose dictators misbehave, resulting in suffering, starvation and even slaughter, all in the name of teaching the tyrants a lesson. The priorities in the Middle East for the US are not human rights and democracy, but rather oil and Israeli superiority. Consequently, anti-American sentiment increases. This mood of the general public is then characterized as “Islamic fundamentalism”, even though the resentment is not rooted in religion. When it turns violent, it is termed “radical Islamic fundamentalism” or “Islamic terrorism.” The various “terrorism experts” promote linkage to the Middle East before any other possibility every time terrorism is speculated. They exploit the human suffering of the victims, their families, and the fears of the American public.

    Indeed, extremists of Muslim backgrounds are violating the norms of Islamic justice and should be held accountable for their criminal behavior, but we in America should not be held hostage to the politics of the Middle East or biased reporting.

    An Israeli journalist, Yo’av Karny, reporting on the events in Chechnya made a striking observation about this development: “The West will be told–and will be inclined to believe–that the oppression of the Chechens is part and parcel of a cosmic struggle against ‘Islamic extremism’ that rages from Gaza to Algeria, from Tehran to Khartoum. Russians will seek Western sympathy. They should not be given it.” The issue is not Chechnya, and it is not even about Islam and the West. Debates about religious wars and cultural clashes only distract us from the real issue: the powerful want to continue dominating the powerless, manipulating facts to influence public opinion, hence maintaining the status quo.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    ASH – I’d say that whatever you cut and pasted from got cut off at the end. I’d say it was this line that gave it away as a cut and paste job…Even in many of the predominantly Muslim countries of the Middle East, Muslims find themselves under attack where the leadership is essentially secular. In Iraq, Saddam Hussein continues his war of genocide against the Shi’ites in the south.

    …any references for your numbers?

  • john

    The Muslim world can be as diverse as when we talk about the Western world — [like] the difference that we see today between France and America. But in general, whether sophisticated or unsophisticated, educated or less than well-educated, many Muslims have a sense of, on the one hand, admiring America. That’s why so many have come here, or want to come here.

    They come to study, they come to live, they buy property, etc. But even though that’s the case, there is a sense among many Muslims who feel close to America (let alone extremists), that there’s been a long history of rivalry. There’s a strong memory of a militant Christianity, the Crusades, and of European colonialism, and, more recently, a sense that in general, as great as America is in terms of its principles, when it comes to its foreign policy and its application in the Muslim world, a double standard is seen.

    The most generic observation is that many simply believe that despite the number of Muslims and their visibility across the world, and now in Europe and America, Islam still tends to be a misunderstood religion, often seen through caricatures or through the headline events that focus on the acts of extremists.

    We often fail to see the diversity. We know that [we encompass] a diversity; when Muslim say “the West” we will say, “Wait a minute, there’s a difference between Europe and America.” Or when they say “the West and Christianity,” we will say, “This is isn’t Christendom any longer.”

    We tend not to see the diversity of the Muslim world. Over the years, until recently, we tended to continually equate Islam with Arabs, when they constitute only 23 percent of the Muslims. In the past, when we talked about, for example, women, we always had images of women in Saudi Arabia; we talked about the fact that they can’t drive cars, or that there is sexual segregation, or that they have to be completely covered in public.

    We often equate that with the reality, let’s say, of Muslims in Egypt or Muslims in Indonesia and Malaysia.

    But the other thing is that we tend to equate the minority of extremists, who are in fact out there and are dangerous, with the majority religion. When an extremist Jew assassinates a prime minister of Israel, or an extremist Christian commits an action, in our gut as Americans we distinguish that from mainstream Judaism and Christianity. The average person doesn’t say, “There go those Christians and Jews again.” And we use the word “extremist” meaning “veering from the norm.” When Muslim extremists do it, that distinction doesn’t occur. Even when we use the word “extremist,” we don’t really necessarily mean that they’re extremists relative to the [Muslim] norm. Of course, that perception gets reinforced by certain voices in the Christian right — Franklin Graham, and [Pat] Robertson — who, in fact, don’t make the distinction themselves. They don’t say “extremists are evil.” They say, “Islam is evil.” I think that that post – 9/11, it’s become exacerbated exponentially.

    for more about this interview “Islam and the West”.

    John L. Esposito

  • peter

    There were a number of things operating. The history, the encounter of Christians and Muslims, while there were many points of cooperation, there were many points of conflict, and a long process of demonization — it’s reflected in Dante’s Inferno, for example. Ironically, Dante borrowed from Muslim writings, but in the end, he put Muhammad in the lowest of the hells. There was at the points of conflict of almost mutual Satanization, and there was a lack of any real appreciation from a scholarly point of view, and full knowledge of Islam. We knew a lot more, not only about Judaism and Christianity, but Hinduism and Buddhism. And this was clearly the case in America.

    In America, the study of eastern religions came in during the sixties and seventies. But the last religion often to be studied, or the last faculty members to be hired in those early days, were in Islam. The interest tended to be in Hinduism, Buddhism — Zen Buddhism. We had a tendency in terms of our own religion and culture to say, “We are Jews and Christians, and the rest are over there.” And immediately that implies that Islam shares an awful lot with Hinduism and Buddhism, and not that much with Judaism and Christianity.

  • Logician

    I find this discussion very interesting…which is why I keep coming back to it. However, I would like to point out that there is virtue is brevity. We really don’t need to have the entire history of Islam reiterated every day. Just my opinion…….

  • ASH

    How Islamic inventors changed the world
    From coffee to cheques and the three-course meal, the Muslim world has given us many innovations that we take for granted in daily life. As a new exhibition opens, Paul Vallely nominates 20 of the most influential- and identifies the men of genius behind them
    http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_technology/article350594.ece

    if u want to know more about this great civlization that brought the world from darkness to light seemuslimheritage.com

  • wonderful civilization

    The ancient Greeks thought our eyes emitted rays, like a laser, which enabled us to see. The first person to realise that light enters the eye, rather than leaving it, was the 10th-century Muslim mathematician, astronomer and physicist Ibn al-Haitham. He invented the first pin-hole camera after noticing the way light came through a hole in window shutters. The smaller the hole, the better the picture, he worked out, and set up the first Camera Obscura (from the Arab word qamara for a dark or private room). He is also credited with being the first man to shift physics from a philosophical activity to an experimental one.
    Innovators in astronomy
    Did you know that historians of astronomy often refer to the time from the 8th through the 14th centuries as the Islamic period? As that was when most study of the stars took place in the Muslim world
    The inventor of the pendulum
    Did you know that the pendulum was invented by an Egyptian scientist in the 10th century? Ibn Yunus’s invention led to the measurement of time by its swinging motion (called oscillations).
    The world’s first planetarium
    Did you know that what is believed to be the first planetarium was first built in the in the city of Cordoba in Spain by Ibn Firnas? etc..

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I’d have to agree with logician on this one. It’s kind of like…what have you done for me lately? We can argue all day about who started what 800 years ago during the crusades and it won’t make any difference. We can argue all day about whether all these scientific advances were muslim advances or advances of people conquered by the muslims of the period.

    This is about blowing up govt embassies for the actions of a newspaper, or blowing up any civilian “target” in the name of a religion and why the “moderate” Muslims aren’t the LOUDEST Muslims condemming those same attacks.

    I don’t care who did what to whom or for whom 1000 years ago. It’s ancient history. What did my 3 friends that were working on the 110th floor of the WTC do to these people? What did the Danish govt do to these people? What did all those people on those four planes do to these people?

    You wanna make a point? Carry a sign. Write your elected officials…march in protest…but don’t kill innocent people and claim it’s in the name of religion.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    comment #139 has a link that’s pretty intersting. So I’m making it clickable here.

    It’s a long read, but pretty informative.

  • Dawn
      but don’t kill innocent people and claim it’s in the name of religion.

    Well, not if you want to call it a religion of peace anyway.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    It was a very long read. I wish it was as informative as it was long.

  • Waleed

    Yes interestingly u picked out only the point to comment which can favour u and i can understand that and i
    guess you forgot to read when i said i condemn the violence happened in any form.
    You didnt get in the context of Blasphemous caricatures which was a MISUSE of freedom of speech as it was
    done without responsibilty knowing that ISLAM prohibits any kind of sketching and any kind of image
    making just like it is prohibited in Christianity and Judaism.

    My point is that if you people dont know how to respect your Holy figures by making sketches
    and in other ways and laughing over them try to respect others religions and their sacred figures it is
    one of the basic pillars of religious harmony and to live peacefully in the world.

    To incite the hurted sentiments of muslims FREEDOM of Speech was MISUSED again when
    it got printed in others countries aswell.

    As i earlier mentioned that voice in the muslim world on a higher level is not heard as it should
    cuz they’re ruled by appointed puppet leaders so they dont have a way to convey their original message
    to the world but being stated this fact they did protest peacefully initially and still doing so if
    u see all around the world but the voilent protest did occur in the middle of it in few countries
    like Iraq, Afgahistan & Pakistan and it didnt occur that intense anywhere else out of these 3 whereas
    there are 57 muslim states in the world.

    Now who are ruling Afghanistan? u know that ? the same appointed men by U.S, who only
    have access to Kabul the capital of Afghanistan and in the majority area of Afghanistan
    still Taliban has the possession of most of the land.

    It is a war situation there and if violence breaks out it is nothing unnatural
    same is the situation with Iraq.

    Pakistan is itself a of victim of terrorism and these people came from Afghanistan who r making situation
    worst here and taking the advantage of peaceful protest they did the violence in it and the world
    saw it as the violent protests.

    Now if u go back in past seeing the situation before U.S invaded in this region nothing was alike that.

    SO now the question arises what really had happend there which made
    the countries unstabled and cause the violence ?

    This i leave it on all of the readers to figure out and to understand.

    As far as u talking about Crusades and linking them to muslims aswell it is too much hilarious.

    Ofcourse Ladies and Gentlemen having NO Muslim state involved in BOMBING and KILLING innocent
    citizens of christian states or any other country of the world and after being BOMBED everyday
    KILLING Hundreds of them in a day in Iraq, Afghanistan & Palestine By U.S and Israel they r the one’s
    who deserve the label of Terrorist and Extremist.

    Regarding the List .. i would say if u’have limited and selective knowledge about the world then
    i cant help u much. even if u have no idea about who is Zinedine Zidane.

    Iam putting some links which may help u can all check them.

  • Waleed

    * Adnan Oktar aka Harun Yahya

    His Website: http://www.harunyahya.com/ [ Check his Books,Article and Movies ]

  • Waleed

    * Dr.Zakir Naik

    His Website A MUST SEE : http://www.irf.net
    It is based on comparative religions:
    Check the download section and specially the Video Gallery.

  • Waleed

    * Sheikh Yusuf Estes [ Former Christian Musician Minister – 1988 ]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yusuf_Estes

    http://www.famousmuslims.com/Yusuf%20Estes.htm

    His Website : http://www.islamtoday.com/

  • Waleed

    * Yousef al-Khattab [ Former Orthodox Jew who is now a Muslim in Palestine]

    jews-for-allah.org

  • Waleed
  • Waleed
  • Tizon

    Islam invaded Europe in 711 A.D.
    They reached almost as far north as Paris. They were repelled by Charlemagne’s grandfather, Charles Martel, and pushed back to the Pyrenees and the Iberian peninsula where the Spanish fought to oust them for the next 800 years. That was the true beginning of the crusades and later the Inquisition!
    But moreover, does anyone else notice that most of the ongoing conflicts involving religion are between Muslims and their non-Muslim neighbors?
    Let’s face it: The Muslim world is completely intolerant of Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists (Note the huge Buddhist statues the Taliban destroyed in Afghanistan a few years ago).
    You can sugar-coat it and convolute it any way you want but the fact remains that Islam has been at war with the non-Muslim world ever since it’s inception.

  • ash

    those who burned the embassies are the exception, muslims demonstrated in more than 100 countries only in 2 or 3 we heard about violence actions, its islamiophobia media that ignored all millions peaceful protesters and just focused on few violent[unacceptable and condemned by all muslims clerics and people] to destort muslims image as if they are violent people

  • ash

    the different between muslims toleration and christians untoleration is obvious , during muslims ruling for spain all jews,chirtians and muslims lived side by side in peace, and jews consider this era as there golden jews era in there history, spain was example of modern civilization and toleration, but when spain chirtians ruled it again they turned it to bloody intolerant place they forced muslims and jews to convert, expel, or to be killed and the bloody history of Inquisitions is well known, untill france ended it in spain .

  • ibraham

    the problem of this world is double standards,for example killing more than 4000 innocent palestinians,792 of them are kids-yesterday also israel troops killed 10 years old palestinians girl, isnot terrorism, but resisting occupation is akind of terrorism, using f16,and tanks to kill people isnot terrorism but using ur body to defend ur land is terrorism, invading countries and killing its people for some lies -iraq- isnot terrorism,but defending ur lands is aterrorism……..the world have to be fair and discover who is the real terrorists

  • jesus

    pat robonsin is one of hatred preacher, he is calling people to kill venzelwa president, and was angry when sharon withdraw from small part of palestinians occupied lands, and calling 1 billion and ahalf muslims terrorists, he is just chirtian zionist wants wars to let zionists like him and his Bush rule the world

  • proud to be arabian

    Zewail’s[arabian muslim] key work has been as the pioneer of femtochemistry—i.e. the study of chemical reactions across femtoseconds. Using a rapid ultrafast laser technique (consisting of ultrashort laser flashes), the technique allows the description of reactions at the atomic level.winner of Nobel Prize in Chemistry

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Ibrahim,

    At Comment #158, you complain about Israelis killing Arabs with M16’s and tanks. You talk about resisting occupation (killing Jews) and complain about us killing back. You want to wage war upon us and complain when we wage war back.

    Fine. Let’s say that we Israelis decide that the entire territory is ours and we want you out – but we’re not going to kill you. We cut off the water and electricity to Gaza and prevent food from getting into the towns and villages of the three former Jordanian provinces west of the Jordan. No tanks – no M16’s – just quarantine, starvation and imprisonment until you leave.

    This too is waging war.

    Any problems with this?

  • Karenjoga

    Dear Andy,

    I’m a Muslim from Lahore, Pakistan here whose office building got gutted during the cartoon riots. And I have a couple of comments to make:

    Firstly the Cartoon Riots were NOT ABOUT THE CARTOONS. The riots in pakistan took on an anti-government, anti-America/ anti-imperialist tangent that was according to sources actually encouraged by certain elements in the Provincial Government as a precussor to the infamous Bush visit. Am I angry? No. Am I despondent about my country’s future? Yes. Do I want Muslim fundamentalists running my country? NO. Do I want to have to deny that I’m a Muslim because I feel discriminated against? NO. Does my being born into a particular belief affect how people treat me? YES. This in my view is an infringement of my basic human rights which may be Greek may be Islamic I don’t care where the idea of rights stems from but it is an infringement none the less.

    Secondly, to talk in generalisations itself is not a great analytical achievement. Yes there is a virulent violent strain in the Islamic world that is indeed hell bent on world domination [or so it seems] but you must bear in mind that this tangent has a lot to do with domestic politics and the want for taking over the reins of power in very isolated domestic realms. If you ever heard rabid fundo propoganda it’s got more to do with socio-economic control than with actual religion.

    Islam has been hijacked, largely because the majority of us Muslims actually do not have an accurate understanding of the historicity of Islam. The reasons for this are multiple and rooted in the rise and fall of the Islamic civlisation.

    Islam does mean peace and more than anything stands for equality, justice and tolerance above all else. You may say that this hogwash, and you’re more than welcome to say so. Muslims are the new Russians. Our basic human phsyche necessitates a counter point to hinge the promotion and ultimately achievement of our own subjective agendas. We are the great malaise that threatens the world but that’s not as simple a statement as it seems.

    The root of this malaise is that the Islamic world really has not recovered from the Mongol attacks of the 12th century, when entire libraries were burnt and intellectuals, artists and theologians were persecuted in a violent purgation of all that was civilised. The cities and countries that we now see as backward and retrogressive [and indeed I am from one of them] were once the repositories of world culture and sophistication, adn the crucial link between the classical and the modern worlds. For most people devoid of a history that spans millennia this information is meaningless and trite. But for people who have seen the epic cycles of peaks and troughs played out in their backyward and who are aware of how these cycles have defined the culture they stem from this is nothing new.

    We’re at the bottom rung of our cultural evolution or devolution right now. ANd again the reasons are multi-tiered and very complex. To state it simply What the Islamic world suffers from is a lack of leaders honest to their country men and honest to the earnest betterment of their countries. I feel that these leaders will never emerge as long as domestic politics in the Islamic world are guided by western interests i.e mineral resources.

    Many thanks for bearing this rant. tis incomplete but I look forward to reading your comments.
    A

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Karenjoga,

    Interesting that you say that Islam has been hijacked; interesting that you say that you will not see honest leaders until western power manipulations and interests are eliminated. I agree with both points wholeheartedly.

    You bring two additional elements, the damage of the Mongol invasions of South Asia and the Middle East, and the provincial interests involving Lahore and vicinity.

    I was vaguely aware of the first and totally unaware of the second.

    Thank you for the education.

  • Tizon

    My point was that the Inquisition came about as a result of the muslim invasion. It began as an attempt to purge coerced muslim beliefs which were instilled in Spain during a war of Islamic conquest.
    It’s interesting that the muslim people who complain that the Jews took their land in Palestine, (a land that the Jews have a long history of occupying), so easily defend their conquest and occupation of the Iberian penninsula.
    Ironically, I used to have some sympathy for the Palistinians. But those feelings have deteriorated steadily over the years. The last straw was the cheering in the streets of the West Bank on 9/11.
    I should also note that I don’t think ALL muslims are bad or intolerant or a threat to freedom. I do wonder, however, where the voices of these moderate and good muslims are when the Islamo-Fascists engage in their outrages.
    I am neither a Jew nor a born-again Christian, but I am a student of history. And history shows an unending series of attempts by extremist Muslims to promote their religion through warfare and conquest which has not been the case for Christians for hundreds of years(in fact most of the recent Christian conflicts have been internecine affairs)and the Jews NEVER in the Christian and Muslim era.

  • ash

    chirtians invented what is known now as genocide during there wars in usa they terminated millions of people ,in south america the same, in phil. they forced people to convert and fought muslims there also by there bloody inquistions, in indonsia the dutch did the same, in imperial era uk ,france, etc invaded islamic countries and treated there people so badly, and as history student u can have comparative study between muslims wars during there history and chirtians west wars!!

  • http://S Logician

    Karenjoga
    I am impressed by your obviously above-average intelligence. I found your bit easy to read and quite informative. I would like to add: We do this have this in common…The Western world (USA)also suffers from a lack of leaders honest to their country and honest to the earnest betterment of their country.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Karenjoga – very interesting read, your comments. I agree that lumping a whole group of people together is a bad thing, but I really have a problem with this religion. It seems that everything I read says that no matter what, if it’s to the better of Islam. it’s OK. Lying, murdering, all of it, if it’s for the betterment of your religion, then, it’s ok.

    Is it true that Muslim prayers must be recited in Arabic and most Muslims don’t know Arabic? Doesn’t it make it kinda hard to understand exactly what you’re praying for?

    Do people that argue that Islam is a religion of peace know about the Hadiths and how they “clarify” certain issues with regard to unbelievers?

    Isn’t it true that the Qu’ran says that unbelievers have three choices…conversion to Islam, tythes(taxes) or death?

    Isn’t it true that Islam says that Christianity and Judiasm can live under Islam but never quite with Islam?

    How long must we wait for the Muslim world to recover from attacks that happened hundreds of years ago? Just wondering about your comment concerning the Mongols…

    You say that the cartoon riots weren’t about cartoons but about America and Imperialism? Is American influence that big in Pakistan right now? bigger than any other influence in the world?

    Why does it always turn to the fault of the rest of the world that Muslims are killing people in the name of their religion?

    I’d love to believe that this religion is a nice peaceful religion like the rest of them, but I’m not seeing it and none of the comments that I’ve received so far is making it any better.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    and again, I keep seeing all this BS about what some people did for the world a thousand years ago. Get this…WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR ME LATELY??? Other than make some of my more favorite sitcoms and TV shows change their opening scenes to remove the WTC, you’ve done absolutely nothing to better the world. Actually, you’ve made it a less fun place to be…but I suppose, that’s what you really wanted in the first place…HOW DARE THEY HAVE FUN ON EARTH!!! Fun is for paradise!

    I also read that if you’re really not into virgins…you can have boys…the finest boys in paradise…a story for another time I guess…

  • Ahmed

    Andy, I’d love to read some of your sources….do post them if you can – A

  • Karenjoga

    Thanks for your comments Andy, I’m going to pick on one of them for now –

    ‘You say that the cartoon riots weren’t about cartoons but about America and Imperialism? Is American influence that big in Pakistan right now? bigger than any other influence in the world? ‘

    Strange as it may sound, but the United States has been the single most dominant force in shaping contemporary Pakistan since the fifties. Moreso than Islam or the British.

    Since independence Pakistan has courted the US [and vice versa] in a more or less tit for tat against India’s siding with Russia in the fifties. Whereas India did so on ideological grounds [Nehru’s flirtation with socialism] Pakistan did so on a short-sighted whim in order to seek some sort of ill-estimated balance.

    Lateron Pakistan acted as the go between the Chinese and the American governments, Nixon and Kissinger used Islamabad as the secret go between for chats with Beijing that culminated in Nixon’s famous visit to China. There’s a very interesting book on the subject called From a Head to a Head through a Head by F.S Aijazuddin that outlines the whole affair most succintly. Then India threatened to attack at one point and Nixon point blank told India off saying that an attack on Pakistan was tantamount to an attack on the US. [WE used to joke that we’re the 51st state].

    Since that time, Pakistan’s foreign policy has not been dictated by Islamabad but in Washington. Its an open secret that the Dictator Zia – an erstwhile ally of washington – was blown up in a plane alongwith the American Ambassador on a signal issued by someone in Washington.

    But in between the Nixon era and the Reagan/Bush era you also had the revolution in Iran, and more significantly the Russian invasion of Afghanistan that led to Pakistan being dragged into a war that did not concern us. It is common knowledge in Pakistan that the American secret service would issue suitcases filled with dollars to the same Fundamentalist outfits that it now seeks to ban. Entire warehouses of weapons would be purchased in China and redistributed to these same fundo organisations [Lutz Kleveman ‘The New Great Game’]. The folks who created Al-Qaeda or the various small groups that have now merged into this super shady giant had no clue about the fallout of what they were doing. The agenda at that time was clear and short sighted ‘defeat the commies and defend your ideology at any cost’. Well the time to bear this cost has now come, not only for you but also for me. These fundos are well funded well equipped and very capable of destroying civil society to gain political ground. The mullahs have tasted blood and now want more. These folks have worked closely with the US and rightly view the shift in US policy as a threat to them, so what is their strategy target the US make it into a gigantic monster in the minds of the masses and let revolution take its toll.

    Musharref is viewed as an American toady – just like the Shah was when he was deposed and look at how he was treated [due to the fact that the CIA was desperately trying to hack a deal with the Ayotallah regarding Iranian oil and did not want to piss the mullahs off that is until the mullahs hijacked the american embassy].

    But coming back to Musharref, strategic thinking in Pakistan’s power circles began to shift after the fall of the Berlin wall, the scales of power had shifted and Pakistan was left in the lurch. The military began viewing Afghanistan as a useful backyard for ‘strategic depth’ [which meant that in case India attacked the Pak army would relocate its resources to Afghan bases and fight the war from there’]. Sheer idiocy but hey ho. The riots had more to do with joblessness, an unequal distribution of wealth in the country and toppling Musharref.

    To wrap things up, the intrinsic connectitivty of events as disparate as the deposition of the Shah and the fall of the Berlin wall is something that is not so apparent to western eyes. But these events regardless of how rhizomatic a connection they make have had regional reprecussions that go far beyond their real time occurences. The fall out is still ongoing in my view and is being played out in an arena stretching from Palestine to Pakistan. COuld it be a fallout from a colonial past and a hasty colonial retreat. Is it a fallout from the crusades. I don’t know. But what I do know is that many Muslims are straddling the line between moderation and fundamentalism, and in the wake of continued anti-islamic fervour the ranks of the moderates are going to thin out.

  • Karanjoga

    Greetings all. Whatever happened to this blog and the discussion that it was generating. I apologise about the long essays I’ve been posting but I do intend to tie in all the tangents into a whole. But let’s get those comments flying folks.

    Looking forward to hearing from all.
    Cheers,K

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Alright Karanjoga, I have another question for you. All this you say about the US and Pakistan is comment 170. The supposed reasons for all the rioting. Does the common man know all this stuff? Or do they riot on the words of a Mullah or Imam? Then there’s all those other questions I asked….

  • MCH

    “…I haven’t commented on a war post in here in a while…”
    – Andy Marsh

    Since you were one of the more aggressive, vociferous promoters after the invasion, I really can’t blame you for backing off from your original, bellicose support, since the subsequent occupation has turned into the major cluster-fuck a lot of us predicted.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    I read you comments with interest, Karanjoga.

    Everyone who is awake and who doesn’t deny reality realizes that the Saudis (Wahhabis) wee more or less installed in Arabia by American business interests. The dummies (the Americans)probably looked at the toothless illiterate sheikh and figured that some land would shut him up while they made a fortune off the oil. Turns out that the Saudis had ambitions far grander than the territory of Arabia.

    But a later generation of Americans figured that they could use the spoor of the Wahhabi, the Taliban – and now have fared no better. The Americans are really paying for a generation or twop of cheap oil. They are paying at the gas pump, they are paying in trillions of dollars of debt for their grandchildren to worry about. For all their techology and fancy razzmatazz and spin doctoring Madison Avenue admen making the sizzle look bigger than the steak, the Americans seem damned stupid. The same Wahhabi snake oil salesmen that the Americans thought they had conned in the 1920’s seem to be screwing them over all over again.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Can you find any comments of mine that would indicate that I am or ever was a “vociferous” promoter of anything other than my XM radio? I never promoted anything, I may have made comments in support of the troops or called bullshit on other articles about how unprepared the military was or is, but that’s about it.

    Like I said, MCH, for some reason, who knows why, you stalk around here making shitty little comments, too afraid to identify yourself or write something that might give insight into your own opinions.
    For some reason, it bothers you that I did more time in the military than you did and I’m not a bleeding heart liberal like you. Go take a zanax or something.

  • MCH

    “For some reason, it bothers you that I did more time in the military than you did and I’m not a bleeding heart liberal like you.”

    Actually, getting out of the service and off the government titty when my hitch was up, to go out and make a living through my own individual efforts, has been my third proudest accomplishment.

  • Dave Nalle

    Is one of the first two insulting all serving members of the military by saying they’re on the ‘government titty’ – rather like people on welfare – rather than acknowledging the hard work they do and are underpaid for doing?

    Dave

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Well good for you! I’m still on the gov titty and will be my whole fucking life…so keep paying those taxes so I can keep getting my check!

  • MCH

    “For some reason, it bothers you that I did more time in the military than you did and I’m not a bleeding heart liberal like you.”

    Not true. Your length of peaceful service or not being a “bleeding heart liberal like me” (although I appreciate the shitty little name-calling) doesn’t bother me. But I am opposed to bureaucrats playing on the internet on taxpayers dollars…

  • troll

    MCH – you are kidding…right – ?

    and what the fuck was the ‘peaceful service’ remark supposed to imply…that Marsh is somehow less of a soldier or less likely to express valid views because he didn’t see combat – ?

    while it’s interesting to watch you break out of the confines of your traditional ch****h**k argument I think that you should stick to honouring the dead

    troll

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    troll, MCH has no sense of humor, so I don’t think he was kidding.

    Dave

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    But now we see how he really feels about the military…nothing but sucking on the gov tit. If you thought it was such a waste of time, why do you think our leaders need it?

  • MCH

    “and what the fuck was the ‘peaceful service’ remark supposed to imply…that Marsh is somehow less of a soldier or less likely to express valid views because he didn’t see combat – ?”

    Not at all, troll. I’m just following the guidelines espoused by Marsh himself. You mean it’s OK for Marsh to repeatedly cast aspersions on John Kerry’s combat record and medals, but wrong to mention the truth regarding his service?

    I never saw combat during my hitch and it doesn’t bother me in the least to admit it.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    What difference does it make MCH…it’s all just sucking on the government tit anyway???