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Violence Escalates in Xianjiang Province

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In the west we don’t always have easy access to news coming out of China where the media is kept on a tight leash and forced to make concessions in what they cover in order to get any access at all. Despite this partial news blackout, events in trouble Xianjiang Province are escalating to the point where the Chinese government cannot keep a lid on what is turning into another grim chapter in their long history of human rights abuses.

Xianjiang’s population of mostly muslim Uighurs has been seen as a potentially troublesome minority for decades and in an effort to keep the region under control and protect their access to energy resources, the Chinese government has been encouraging ethnic Han Chinese to move into the area and has been showing favoritism to these settlers over the Uighur natives in employment and providing government services. This has reached the point where the Uighurs have become increasingly ghettoized and demoted to a status as second-class citizens in their own homeland. In the Urumqi, the capital of Xianjiang, ethnic Chinese now outnumber the native Uighurs 7 to 1.

In recent weeks this situation has become more ugly, with riots breaking out in major cities, especially Urumqi. Mobs of Uighurs and Chinese settlers are roaming the streets and meeting in violent clashes while Chinese soldiers look on and make little effort to do more than contain the violence. In one case a Chinese mob caught brutalizing a lone Uighur even attacked an ABC news crew and police and soldiers chose not to intervene.

Exiled Uighur leader Rebiya Kadeer has been accused by the Chinese of inciting the violence, but she maintains that the Chinese are telling only one side of the story and that Uighurs are being forced to respond to violence from the Chinese population who are supported and protected by the government and military.

The current violence was spurred by a June 26th attack on Uighur factory workers in Guangdong province in which at least two Uighurs were killed by Chinese mobs. Protests have spread throughout Uighur populated areas, but protesting Uighurs often face violent reprisals from the more numerous Chinese population. There is certainly violence on both sides in the conflict, but with larger numbers and the tacit approval of the government and military the ethnic Chinese enjoy a considerable advantage. Bands of Chinese vigilantes roam the streets of the cities, attacking any Uighurs who venture out of their ghetto-like neighborhoods.

The extent of the violence is hard to gauge with limited media access to the region, but even the Chinese Xinhua news service admits that hundreds are dead in the last week alone, over 150 of them when Chinese settlers and police attacked a Uighur protest march Urumqi on the 5th of July.

The violence has lead to the Chinese government declaring martial law in Urumqi, a curfew in Xianjiang and Guangdong, rounding up hundreds of suspected Uighur “ringleaders” and barricading Uighur neighborhoods to keep residents contained. Even though most of the violence seems to have been initiated by ethnic Chinese, the response of the police has been to crack down primarily on Uighurs while looking on Chinese vigilante gangs as allies rather than part of the problem.

Amnesty International complains that this recent violence is just the culmination of a long-term government campaign against the Uighurs which began in the 1980s, in which the minority group has been “the target of systematic and extensive human rights violations”, including “arbitrary detention and imprisonment, incommunicado detention, and serious restrictions on religious freedom as well as cultural and social rights.” They describe a situation in Xianjiang which comes close to “ethnic cleansing” or full government-supported genocide.

Other world news and the restrictions on media access to the region have limited the news coverage of events in Xianjiang, but as the violence increases and the Chinese government cracks down and human rights groups become more vocal in their complaints, the problem is becoming too large to ignore or cover up.

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About Dave Nalle

  • Glenn Contrarian

    WAITAMINNIT!

    Dave Nalle used AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL as a reference?!?!?!?

    That begs the question as to whether he’d listen to what they said about torture during the Bush or about the death penalty?

    Dave, there’s hope for you yet, because by referencing Amnesty International, you’ve gone against the conservative tradition of ignoring anything liberals say not because of factual basis or lack thereof, but because it’s liberals that said it.

  • cqwefr

    I really wish you know the truth before writing anything in the future.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Add to that, Glenn, that Dave posted an article in the Culture section, where he does come across as a gentleman and a scholar, so yes, there’s definitely hope for Dave so long as he steers clear of from politics – his ill-conceived hobbyhorse and the source of all ignominy.

    Stick to culture, Dave, and let whatever political conclusions follow. It’d say it’s a safer bet.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    In one case a Chinese mob caught brutalizing a lone Uighur even attacked an ABC news crew and police and soldiers chose not to intervene.

    Were it not for the constant lying, villification and de-legitimization of the Jewish communities of Judea and Samaria, and the rest of Israel, I might feel outraged reading this. But as it is, the lying bastards have it coming, even if in this instance, they were on the “right” side of events. I guess I’m just fresh out of outrage.

    I wish to raise another point here. Right now, it looks as if the Uigurs are the innocent victims of Chinese mob violence, and given the tendency of the Communist Chinese regime to cover up anything that may reflect badly on China, it seems as if they stand indicted. That is how it looks right now.

    But there may be another side to the story, a third side to the story, one that may take some time to emerge. Indeed, when you look at Tibet, you find that there is indeed another side to the story, a third side that doesn’t canonize the Dalai Lama as the living god-king of the Tibetans, or make the old man look so good at all.

  • Baronius

    Communists keep thinking that they can diffuse racial tensions by forcibly mixing ethnic groups. It’s a perfect demonstration of the failure of top-down thinking to recognize daily reality.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    But they have under dictatorial (and somewhat benevolent) regimes – such as Tito’s.

  • chris

    The bloody muslims had a well prepared plan like 911. They sent women and children in main streets for peaceful demonstration, which attracted the attention of all polices. By the same time the young muslims went to the small streets or corner areas to attack individual Han chinese, which ended up the death were mainly Han Chinese. All human being should condem such a bloody crime.

  • ourlives

    “Over 150 of them when Chinese settlers and police attacked a Uighur protest march Urumqi on the 5th of July.”

    Before you come to a conclusion, do your home work.

    From what source that you are sure those 150+ people were killed by the Chinese police? From pictures and videos I viewed, most of them are Han Chinese. The are cut in the throat or hit in the head with rocks. If they were killed by the police it should’ve be gun-shot wound.

    And, if the people are killed by the police, then how do you explain the shops and buildings were set fire and destroyed? Would police do that while crack down the riots?

  • Lumpy

    Amnesty works for the same tranzi elites who now also run the US govt. Get the picture?

  • Lumpy

    I see the Chinese shills have arrived. Must be on break from leveling WoW characters.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    ‘ourlives’ –

    How do you know the difference between a Han Chinese and an ethnic Uighur just by looking at a not-so-close-up picture?

    You don’t.

    [Edited]

  • Clavos

    It ain’t the first time we’ve had Chinese government employees posting here. A couple of years back, we had quite lively discussion for several days with about fifteen of them from all over China.

    I think that was Lumpy’s reference.

  • Bliffle

    Specialized trolls search blogs for references to their favorite thing, then comment bomb the blog. You should see what happens when someone mentions s.c.i.e.n.t.o.l.o.g.y.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Before you come to a conclusion, do your home work.

    There are links in the article to multiple soures.

    From what source that you are sure those 150+ people were killed by the Chinese police?

    I never said they were killed by the Chinese police. I specifically said they were killed in the rioting.

    From pictures and videos I viewed, most of them are Han Chinese.

    And again, I did not say that those killed were exclusively Uighurs, though that is the impression given by almost all news accounts. I’d be interested to see your photos or any evidence that they are mostly Han Chinese. None of the sources, not even Xinhua, are suggesting that the majority of the attacks are by Uighurs against Chinese.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    I wonder if China lets them have access to the parts of the net denied to other Chinese citizens so long as they post their pro-government messages.

    Dave

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I thought, just for the heck of it, that I would go to Xinhua to see what they had to say about all this.

    This article details, according to the Chinese, the activities of the World Uyghur Congress led by Rebiya Kadeer. It presents a day by day, hour by hour listing or the alleged activities of Rebiya Kadeer and the World Uyghur Congressin the days leading up to the violence in China.

    This article about “netizens” talks of alegations of biased reportage in the media, and how “the ethnics-based approach of analyzing the riot misrepresented the true picture in Xinjiang, a place home to 47 of China’s 56 ethnic groups, including the Uygur (45.62%), Han(39.87%) and Kazak (6.99%) ethnic groups.

    Netizens believe that the western media’s languages are not neutral, and the way of defining the brawl at a toy factory in Shaoguan best shows how the Western media try to orientate the Western readers’ attention. To frame the brawl as racial violence is not only wrong in fact but also malicious in nature, they said, accusing some Western media continuously play up the ethnic tension in China through many ways, following the same intrigue of reporting the Lhasa riots.”

    Finally, not from Xinhua, but from Dekafiles, comes the brief report running at the top of the screen that the presient of China left the G8 Talks early, in order to deal with the violence in Xinqiang.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    I’m disinclined to believe any spin Xinhua chooses to put on the news. There’s more than enough evidence of the racial nature of this violence from other sources to take it seriously.

    Dave

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Dave,

    Xinhua’s articles are only posted to give their side of the argument, such as it is.

  • Lumpy

    When is Cindy going to stop by to defend her red Chinese comrades?

  • http://tolstoyscat.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Lumpy,

    What have I ever said that would lead you to think I would support the Chinese govt?

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    You posted: “I’m disinclined to believe any spin Xinhua chooses to put on the news. There’s more than enough evidence of the racial nature of this violence from other sources to take it seriously.”

    I would caution you against such an outlook, because this is precisely the view that keeps conservatives and liberals polarized against each other in America.

    Xinhua – while they are an official government organ (and somehow the word ‘organ’ has always seemed appropriate) – sometimes they have factual news that we don’t normally get here. That’s why I enjoy reading the Gulf News btw.

    I’m not saying to believe everything they say – no way would I say that! What I am suggesting is a different way of viewing news and claims – is it factual or verifiable? And even if it is factual or verifiable, is it still intentionally skewed?

    It is good to be cynical as you are, but only if one still has enough of an open mind to listen to the evidence presented on all sides of an argument before one passes judgment on the matter at hand.

  • Lumpy

    I thought from your other posts that u were generally pro socialism and terror and anti liberty.

  • http://tolstoyscat.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Dave,

    Excellent article. I would like to make one point.

    Here is the way I have understood it from what journalists were saying. The Chinese govt allowed media in right away. This is very important distinction, to me. There were protests all over China earlier this year. Not more than a peep escaped. Journalists who made initial reports were immediately punished and silenced. Here is what happened then:

    February 1, 2009
    Violent unrest rocks China as crisis hits
    The collapse of the export trade has left millions without work and set off a wave of social instability

    In northern China, television journalists were punished after they prepared a story on the occupation of a textile mill by 6,000 workers. Furious local leaders in the city of Linfen said the news item would “destroy social stability” and banned it.

    Later in March: Protecting civil rights leads to jail in Sichuan

    Now, in this case, a suspicion of propaganda arose because of the Chinese govts welcoming of reporters. In my opinion it is a tactic–it did not seem uncontainable.

    (Paragraph two of your article could have the names changed to Palestinians Israel, Israelis –I am stunned that your focus on Hamas doesn’t permit you to see this. I am in agreement with Staughton Lynd, who said that worldwide sympathy for the Palestinians suffers because of violence. I agree with him–It’s an example how violence against people never works.)

  • http://tolstoyscat.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    18 – Lumpy

    Then you’ll have to pay closer attention, won’t you.

  • http://tolstoyscat.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I am surprised Joanne has not been by to comment about the people whom she chose to portray with the words: the Chinese govt calls them ‘terrorists’.

    The Chinese govt called the students at Tiananmen Square ‘terrorists’.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    (Paragraph two of your article could have the names changed to Palestinians Israel, Israelis….

    Why am I not surprised that Cindy tries to hustle the “poor Palestian” garbage into this situation. As if the Han Chinese are surrounded by 50 billion Turks have to fight for their very existence in a world that hates them and is willing to exterminate them likew so many cockroaches or rats.

    These are the actions of an empire (China) crushing the inhabitants of an outer province (Chnese Turkestan), not a that of a small nation seeking refuge from a world ready to kill them off.

  • http://tolstoyscat.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Ruvy,

    I am afraid you are not going to appreciate my follow up article on the Free Gaza Movement. I am just offering you preparation.

    I do not see this is not a battle between you and me.

  • http://tolstoyscat.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Garbled, but you know what I mean.

    (BTW, three cheers to BC for the unpagination! Thanks! It so helpful! Yay!)

  • Lumpy

    On a percentage basis there are a lot fewer terrorists among the uighurs than among Palestinians and no organization like Hamas. Cindy makes an inept comparison.

  • http://tolstoyscat.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Lumpy,

    It’s only inept for those who automatically legitimate governments when they terrorize people.

    Which means there are a whole lot more terrorists in Israel’s government being that it is also a terrorist organization.

  • http://tolstoyscat.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    “Maybe independent terrorists rationalize killing people the same way as nation terrorists; maybe they just redefine it by calling it something like: ‘collateral damage’. I wonder if the dead care which kind of terrorist murdered them.” — tolstoyscat

  • Peter

    First, I wonder if people here know that PAP and the army are busy keeping the Han mobs out of concentrated Uighur neighborhoods and disperse them? As you should know, Chinese government fear the Han much more than the minorities due to quite a few historic reasons.

    Second, I also wonder how much of Rebiya Kadeer should I believe given the following 4 facts:

    1. She had 11 children, which confirms that Uighurs were not subject to China’s One Child Policy.

    2. She was born to a family with no background. She started her business with a road side convenient store and worked her way to be THE richest person in the province of Xinjing. This proved Uighurs can earn their business success through hard work.

    3. She was a senior member of the People’s Congress of Xinjing, and a senior member of the National People’s Congress of China. This shows Uighurs were not excluded from political life in China.

    4. She was arrested because she provided funding to Eastern Turkestan and carried out activities in China following instructions from Eastern Turkestan. Eastern Turkestan is labeled as terrorist organization by most countries including the US, Russia, China, etc.

    And lastly, if living side by side prove to be impossible, isn’t it time that the Chinese start using what US is doing with Native Americans and “quarantine” troublesome minorities in special locations and let them autonomously self-rule, let them build casinos, and get media to entirely ignore them as much as possible?

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    That last paragraph about the native americans is absolutely classic agitprop. It’s like a radioactive marker on the whole post. Comes straight out of the dialectical handbook of arguments to use when arguing with Americans.

    Dave

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Comment 29: On a percentage basis there are a lot fewer terrorists among the Uighurs than among Palestinians and no organization like Hamas. Cindy makes an inept comparison.

    Comment 30: It’s only inept for those who automatically legitimate governments when they terrorize people.

    Which means there are a whole lot more terrorists in Israel’s government being that it is also a terrorist organization.

    Actually Lumpy’s comparison is a very accurate one. And Cindy’s is terribly inept. Working on the “given” that the Chinese government is a terrorist organization, we can say equally that the Israeli government is a terrorist organization – it is. Though what Cindy misses – along with everyone else pursuing the meme of “poor poor Palestinian” – is that the Israeli government also pursues terror against Jews here as well. It is a very discriminitory and racist bunch, fllede with all the hate that only “leftists” cna carry for generations.

    But either way, there is no equivalent to the terror group Hamas, the Arab rape gangs in the Galilee who rape non-Moslem women out of hatred for Jews and Israel, the murderers from the various terror groups associated with el-FataH (trained by the Americans) who shoot at Jewish drivers on the road in Samaria. The basic attitude that the only good “Jew is a dead Jew” that infuses all of the heretical Wahhabi philosophy that inspires both Hamas and el-FataH is not found among the Uigurs tregarding the Chinese. Of course, if the Chinese continue their present course, they will “grow” a similar attitude among Uigurs as well.

    If you stop painting Arab terrorists as saints, Cindy, I’ll stop displaying them for the human trash they are. Just letting you know in advance…. I do not see this as a battle between you and me.

  • Clavos

    I’m wondering, publicly, why all comments referring to the interference in this thread by paid Chinese government shills are being removed?

    And by whom?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    First, we’d have to establish they are shills, Clav. And secondly, is “wondering publicly” comparable to “thinking out laud”?

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    That’s easy to answer, Clavos. The comment by Peter, regardless of its origin or motivation, was a valid comment.

    The comments that followed, starting with Lumpy’s, were personal attacks on him or responses to those remarks and so were deleted.

    You have no way at all of knowing if Peter is genuine, sincere, just highly motivated or a Chinese government shill.

  • Peter

    Dave, perhaps it is true of what you said, but after going through history classes, looking at daily events in newspapers, and major online news, I cannot help but wonder about Native Americans and their general lack of mentions.

    For Example, I remember a few years ago, one of their high schools had a tragic student killing events. The mainstream media reported all for about 2 days. Then a few weeks later, a high school in their reservations have another student killings, the mainstream media reported for over a week.

    Perhaps my observation is not complete, but it matches what I saw and heard.

    You know in our country, we have mainstream culture, Black American culture, Hispanic American culture and many other cultures that we are in daily contact with. The one that seems to be missing is the Native American culture.
    Is it a coincidence or on purpose?

  • Peter

    Whoops, correction:
    Then a few weeks later, a high school not of Native Americans had a student killings, the mainstream media reported for over a week.

  • Peter

    Blog report on XinJiang incident from a UK reporter with first hand experience.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    First, we’d have to establish they are shills, Clav.

    Actually, in order to state an opinion that they act like shills one only has to observe their actions, not provide any additional factual evidence, because it’s just an opinion.

    This is where the comment editing has fallen away from just observing the comments policy into a gray area which seems to be rather more subjective.

    Dave

  • Clavos

    Shill or not, it’s interesting to me that Peter, who claims to be a Chinese citizen, has the unmitigated gall, as a citizen of one of the most repressive societies in the history of the world, to criticize (incorrectly at that) the USA’s treatment of Native Americans.

    Peter, you Chinese live in a very large glass house in terms of your country’s record on human rights.

    You should refrain from throwing stones, especially in such an ignorant manner.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Dave, perhaps it is true of what you said, but after going through history classes, looking at daily events in newspapers, and major online news, I cannot help but wonder about Native Americans and their general lack of mentions.

    Native Americans make up only about 1% of the population, plus an unknown number of Native Americans living integrated in the general society. I suspect that if you did a study they probably get far more than 1% of the news coverage.

    You know in our country, we have mainstream culture, Black American culture, Hispanic American culture and many other cultures that we are in daily contact with. The one that seems to be missing is the Native American culture.

    What country do you live in again? I guess there are some parts of the US where your observation might apply, but in many others native American traditions play a pretty large role in the culture, especially in the southwest. We have a huge multi-tribe powow here in Austin. And in general popular culture, look at all the images and concepts borrowed from native americans and in common usage.

    We’ve got writers like Tony Hillerman and Charled de Lint who write extensively about native American themes. We’ve got performers like Cher and Wayne Newton who heavily promote their indian heritage. Until political correctness went wild we had a disproportionate number of sports teams named after native americans.

    If anything native american culture is revered in a way that no other is in our society.

    Dave

  • Irene Wagner

    I’m part Cherokee, Peter. I don’t have enough Native American blood to be allowed by the US government to run a casino in my garage tax-free, but thanks to my Cherokee heritage, I do have high cheek bones, and am therefore, a major babe. Many highly-paid American runway models, who have reached the utmost tippy-top PINNACLE of consumerist and capitalist society in these United States of America, have high cheek bones as well, and are therefore likely to be Native Americans.

    Yes, American Indians were treated HORRIFICALLY, but have been gaining acceptance steadily especially in the last 50 years. “Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee,” which very sympathetically describes the plight of the American Indian, was a best seller. Cher Bono (“Half-Breed”) was an enormously popular actress and singer of Native American descent. Americans are very interested in Native American spirituality—do you know what “dream-catchers” are Peter? You could manufacture them in China and ship them to America where they would fly off the shelves like roasted insects in a Beijing market. You too, can experience the joys of capitalism right there in the Communist People’s Republic of China, as so many of your compatriots are doing.

    Don’t you worry about us Cherokees, Peter. I refer you to the smash hit single Indian Reservation (Lament of the Cherokee)” by “Paul Revere and the Raiders.”
    “Maybe someday when we’ve learned, the Cherokee people will return.” Maybe the Uighers are being inspired by a similar song. Better watch out.

  • http://tolstoyscat.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Actually, in order to state an opinion…one [need] not provide any…factual evidence, because it’s just an opinion. –Dave Nalle

    Indeed Dave, you are living proof that one only needs a mouth (or some fingers) to provide opinions. One does not even need access to any facts. Just start blabbering.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I do agree. Even opinions shouldn’t be uninformed. Otherwise, anything goes.

  • Peter

    To Clavos: When did I claim to be a Chinese citizen? Don’t put your words in my mouth.

    To Dave:
    Yes Native Americans are only 1%, sad but true. My words comes from 20+ years day to day observations growing up here. I’m not talking about Native Americans make over 1% in total news media coverage but about the mainstream media tendency to ignore or marginalize them such as in the case of high school attack I have mentioned. Perhaps you are right that in certain parts of the country, Native American culture is missing while in other parts, it is not. The last sentence you said is problematic. Some of us like Native American culture, others like other kind of cultures that exists here but none is revered. The icons and symbols we can use, but it doesn’t guarantee all of us know what they meant, or inspire us to know all about the Native American people. Sometimes it is just a trend. Why do you think all the political correctness went wild all of a sudden?

    To Irene: Your first sentence is funny. Third sentence is highly speculative.
    Gaining acceptance is great, but my point is that they are still marginalized heavily in mainstream media while wild political correctness is prevalent against them.
    As for Cher, she is not as “half-breed” as you think.

    I know what dream catcher is and I know they were trendy at one time.
    That last sentence of the 2nd paragraph is funny especially too as if China didn’t have them already.
    I don’t worry too much about the Native Americans. I leave that for themselves. Do you think that special reservations are good for Native Americans? If so, then perhaps China should do that as well to its troubled minorities? If not, then shouldn’t we also live among them like we are doing with all the other ethnic groups we have?

  • http://tolstoyscat.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I think reservations are good for people who like governments and constitutions and ruling things. I would put them all in a reservation and build a great big wall around them with a screen across the top so they could breath. Then the rest of the world could just live.

  • Clavos

    To Clavos: When did I claim to be a Chinese citizen?

    Point taken, Peter, you have not.

    So my reference to you in comment #42 should read:

    Shill or not, it’s interesting to me that Peter has the unmitigated gall, as an apologist for one of the most repressive societies in the history of the world, to criticize (incorrectly at that) the USA’s treatment of Native Americans.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    As for Cher, she is not as “half-breed” as you think

    Which goes even more to proving my point. That she should choose to exaggerate her native american heritage and that she and others consider this an asset to her career says a great deal about how native american culture is viewed in this country.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Regarding the issue of Chinese shills, I think we established previously that they are not necessarily Chinese natives. There seems to be a network of communists living outside of China who are sympathetic to China and/or in their pay who do this shilling. As I recall previously many of them seemed to be Australian.

    Either that or the Chinese are good at dummying IP addresses.

    Peter also still has to get around the problem of syntax which is aberrant in a way characteristic of an educated but non-native English speaker.

    Dave

  • Irene Wagner

    Well, Peter, I’m not as “half-breed” as I think, either. My cheekbones look a lot like Cher’s though, and if I wanted to, I could make a hit single about being part-Cherokee just like she did because Its.Cool.To.Love.Native.Americans, who are no longer marginalized.

    People should be able to live where ever they want. If people want to preserve and celebrate their ethnicity by dwelling in “Little Italy” or “China Town,” or “Reservations where one can run casinos and perform rain dances for paying tourists” fine, as long as they aren’t forced to do it by a government. Sometimes poverty and prejudice can keep people trapped in a ghetto, and sometimes people prefer to live in ghettos because that’s their home away from the “Old Country” home.

    Cindy, I believe the founders who wrote the U.S. Constitution were flawed humans who came up with an enduring masterpiece that was bigger than all of them put together. If the US government truly limited its activities to providing security and justice for the people it is supposed to be SERVING, then Americans, and a big chunk of the rest of the world, probably “could just live.” (PS – adorable black feral kitty has been caught. Hisses and piteous mews have been replaced by where the hell-is-my-breakfast howls. And now…I must do Saturday chores.)

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    The issue of shilling is a complete red herring and just one of the many ways people like Dave try to devalue the opinions of those they disagree with.

    Dave Nalle, the ultimate ideologue, is a shill for his own prejudiced opinions just like everybody else.

    Criticising people’s writing skills is another blatant and crude attempt to attack the messenger rather than the message and should not be taken seriously by any thoughtful commenter.

  • Peter

    To Clavos: I would careless what kind of title people put on me. You can put on me, and I can put on you, but I prefer not to.
    Criticize incorrectly? Then perhaps you approve of what US did to the Native Americans and round them up in reservations?

    To Dave: You can say it your way, I can say it in another: In the world of Entertainment, one need to do something special to differentiate one’s self against others to achieve fame. Cher hyped that part of herself to achieve stardom.

    I believe we should concentrate energy at the topic at hand instead of focusing on character assassinations, witch hunt, wild accusations, or the likes on different voices other than your own group. If you want to go that way, please join politics.

    Problem of syntax/grammar to prove your belief it is a characteristic of an “characteristic of an educated but non-native English speaker”? What about those who just sucks at formal writing, not care to proof read, or just not give a rat’s ass about syntax/grammar? Can we bundle them all up as non-native English speakers? You bias is starting to show.

  • http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/sundaysurfer/index.php STM

    Clav, are you up for reading this stuff or would you prefer I wait until Monday to send it when you are less busy?? I’m off home soon, it being 3.45am here.

    Is the bellsouth email best, or the other??

  • Peter

    Irene: If you are so proud of yourself and could do what “cher” did, then why don’t you? I would gladly see that I’m wrong by your actions (not words).

    Perhaps you think that Native Americans were happily participating to live in reservations for you to write that second paragraph? “Sometimes poverty and prejudice can keep people trapped in a ghetto, and sometimes people prefer to live in ghettos because that’s their home away from the “Old Country” home.” Very right, so which is more prevalent toward Native Americans: Poverty, prejudice, or simply got used to live in the land our government designated them to live in and forgotten the ancestral homeland of the past?

  • http://www.facebook.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    *Has been cheerfully noticing Irene’s posts.

  • Clavos

    Then perhaps you approve of what US did to the Native Americans and round them up in reservations?

    That’s exactly what I mean by “criticize incorrectly,” Peter.

    To this day, no Native American is forced to live on a reservation, and many don’t.

    The concept of establishing reservations was a flawed solution to the problem of Native American loss of territory, lost in their wars with the United States, but they are not obligated to live on them, and in fact the reservations have freedoms other Americans don’t enjoy, including autonomy of administration of their territories, freedom from Federal taxation, etc.

    And recently, the Native Americans have found and are exploiting their privileges in very creative and lucrative ways, such as the casinos you mentioned earlier.

    The casino concept has worked so well for the Seminoles here in Florida, for example, that they are now the owners of the entire worldwide chain of Hard Rock resorts, which generates a high five figure income for every man, woman and child in the tribe.

    In short, US treatment of Native Americans, while not stellar, is so far above the repressive, cruel, feudal Chinese society you defend so vigorously, as to be a model of humane treatment in comparison to China.

  • Clavos

    Go, Stan. Any addy works, mate.

  • http://www.facebook.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Please can someone fix my comment in 57?

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Cindy, I would if I knew what was wrong with it…

  • http://www.facebook.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Christopher,

    I used a left arrow thingy (less than sign) right where the comment disappears. I forgot I cannot do that here because it’s read as html. If you remove that it should be okay. TIA.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    As interesting as Native Americans are, I thought I would attempt to return this debate to the actual subject at hand, events in Chinese Turkestan. This article at Xinua is its latest attempt to de-legitmize Rebiya Kadeer. Separatism and independence from Chinese domination are indeed issues here – the reason why the regime in Peking ships so many Han Chinese to live in Turkestan – it is attempting to secure its western borders against the many Turkic nations further west. One never knows when these Turkic nations will figure out that by pursuing one Turkic identity together, rather than separately, they will profit from their control of huge stretches of land north of India and south of Russia.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Cindy, no you didn’t!

  • Peter

    To Clavos: “To this day, no Native American is forced to live on a reservation, and many don’t”? This and the next paragraph are an eye opener for me? You are right that reservations are created because of the reasons you wrote, but “they are not obligated to live on them”? So that’s why they voluntarily left their ancestral homelands and moved to the reservations? Let’s take a look at the Act that “voluntarily” let Indians leave their ancestral land to the reservations: The Indian Removal Act.

    And about the Casinos, why don’t you try to find out the negative effects and testimonials of Native Americans about building a casino on the Internet?

    I can tell you that minorities in China also can born than 1 babies unlike the Han. Comment 32 already provided examples of some of the advantages they get as well. They are also exempt from federal tax. Many of their cultures icons and products (akin to dream catcher) are also there in the mainstream Chinese culture. All the minorities are missing is the full autonomy, but they are not in reservations.
    If you expect that every nation on Earth must have their own system akin to what we have, believe what we believe, then you’ll continue to argue such things with me and I get bored easily with such repetitions.

  • Irene Wagner

    To #56 Pete: Asian residents of North American Chinatown don’t all have the same reason for remaining there. Some “First Americans” stay on reservations (not all do) because Native customs have been resurrected along with a desire for tribal cohesion. Some stay because generational poverty following near extermination during US westward expansion is exacerbated by a genetic disposition to alcholism.

    So Peter, I hope you’ve convinced yourself that Uighers and other ethnic and religious minorities (e.g. those who, like Gao Zhisheng, aren’t atheists) should have the freedom to live and congregate where they please in China. After all, if denying these things to Natives in America wasn’t a good thing, it isn’t a good thing for that to happen to minorities in China.

    I’m concerned about human rights in America and China, Peter, and I’m going to be just as charitable as can be and assume that you sincerely share that concern–but you’re about 100 years too late directing it toward the plight of the American Indian. What’s been done there, sadly, has been done.

  • http://www.facebook.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Hmmm, okay Christopher. Thanks for trying. I will try to remember what I wrote instead.

  • http://www.facebook.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    this is what I did

  • http://www.facebook.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Hi Irene,

    I believe the founders who wrote the U.S. Constitution were flawed humans who came up with an enduring masterpiece that was bigger than all of them put together.

    Bigger than any human, I think, that’s what I see as the problem.

    If the US government truly limited its activities to providing security and justice for the people it is supposed to be SERVING, then Americans, and a big chunk of the rest of the world, probably “could just live.”

    Even with the best possible start, as you suggested, it’s a failure. I don’t see how some people having power over other people will ever work out.

    …adorable black feral kitty has been caught. Hisses and piteous mews have been replaced by where the hell-is-my-breakfast howls. :-)

    I am resolved to being kittyless for some time to come. As it turns out, someone likes the empty nest idea. I have decided to be indulgent as I have also been indulged.

  • Irene Wagner

    Cindy, I believe that a universal, radical, permanent change in human nature is possible. There, I found the common ground, where I can wave goodbye. (To every thing there is a season. A time to have kits, a time to have cats, a time to recover.)

  • http://www.facebook.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Cindy, I believe that a universal, radical, permanent change in human nature is possible.

    I understand why. I, myself, would settle for an insignificant change in a single opinion of a solitary individual, about now. :-)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Good luck.

  • Peter

    To Irene: I do not have to convince myself as the minorities already do congregate and have the freedom to live anywhere in China for various reasons such as economical. There are many minorities in various Chinese cities, some inter-marry with other ethnic groups.

    Perhaps reservations now have become different than the past. As you clearly said the Native American people are adapting to their situation and made the best use out of it. But you also have pointed out, the process is painful and long, but there are still after effects which you said is a genetic disposition, but I see as the forceful environment factors, such as unemployment, that exacerbate this disposition.

    There is no perfect solution to minorities, in US or in China. But the best we do is to gradually improve them. China already did so for most of its minority group. The strongly religious Uighurs and Tibetans are difficult to live with heterogeneous cultures into their lives, but hey if hundreds of years of reservation life made Native Americans survive, hundreds of year of close living with other ethnic groups can make them more open and accepting of other cultures, not just the Hans but the world, perhaps?

  • Irene Wagner

    Peter — last comment, last paragraph, last sentence. Perhaps.

  • Irene Wagner

    Peter, when you said, “There is no perfect solution to minorities, in US or in China. But the best we do is to gradually improve them,” did you meant the best WE do or the best THEY do?

    I’m all for the gradual approach, but people who live together in societies can improve each other, don’t you think? Why does it have to be one-sided, that diminishes the potential for potential improvement of the society by as much as 50%!

    Anyway, Peter, I’m still going to give you the benefit of the doubt, that whether you are a Chinese or American citizen, you have the potential to recognize and intervene when cruelty is being inflicted, even when the victim is someone with whom you disagree vehemently on ideological matters.

    Would you please read this short article about civil rights attorney Gao Zhisheng who is being tortured, and consider using whatever influence you may have with other Chinese people to help him, and other religious minorities who may be suffering torture in similar ways?

    Thanks a lot Pete! (Sorry if that’s too informal — That’s what I call my little brother who has the same name.)

  • Irene Wagner

    Dave Nalle’s article is about Muslim Uighers, I know. Lest anyone get the idea I don’t care about Muslims and have co-opted this thread to ask you to appeal to the Chinese government on behalf of Gao Zisheng, a member of my own faith, please consider the fact that Gao Zhisheng is a human rights lawyer fighting for the human rights for ALL Chinese, including the Falun Gong whose practitioners are being subjected to ORGAN HARVESTING THROUGH VIVISECTION!!!

    Statement of DAVID KILGOUR, ESQ., FORMER MEMBER OF THE CANADIAN HOUSE OF COMMONS, CO-AUTHOR OF THE ”REPORT INTO ALLEGATIONS OF ORGAN HARVESTING OF FALUN GONG PRACTITIONERS IN CHINA” to Congress:

    “I must also give credit to AI for putting out an emergency bulletin recently about the arrest of China’s most courageous lawyer, Gao Zhisheng, who shares a number of qualities with Nelson Mandela and Mahatma Gandhi. Indeed, it was Gao who invited David Matas and myself to investigate the matter of organ seizure of Falun Gong prisoners, although we were not granted visas by China’s Government. It is my intention to nominate Gao for the Nobel Peace Prize, and I would hope that the Members of Congress will do that as well.”

  • Irene Wagner

    Pete, here are some videos of Gao Zisheng speaking in Chinese (with English subtitles for the benefit of most of the rest of us here.)

    Human Rights Lawyer Gao Zheshing’s last interview before his arrest. He was considered a hero of the Communist party before he started speaking out against things the Chinese government preferred him to keep quiet about. Then the torture started. Maybe you’re a Gao Zeshing kind of person, Pete.
    Please help.

    Here’s information on how all of us can try to contact people of influence in China on Gao Zeshing’s behalf.

  • Irene Wagner

    And Ruvy, I will finally speak to you, too.
    For the love of G-D, Ruvy, hold your peace for once.

  • Clavos

    I hope Peter will help you, Irene, but I doubt it.

  • Peter

    To Irene: I mean the best that we all should do. The good thing that I have notice is that both Americans and Chinese have the capacity to improve their shortfalls given time. I truly wish that we can all learn from each other instead of rejecting each other.

    As for Gao Zhisheng, my heart goes to his family for his disappearance. But I do not like how any information is twisted when presented to me. I do not trust government media sources as well as the “free” corporate media sources. There are just too many hidden factors that manipulates the information before we, the common people, get to know them. I will do best to form my own thinking on this issue. One thing that I do know is that no family can be denied to know where their family members are being kept, be it Gao, secret operatives, or whoever else.

    I don’t mind the informal name Irene and thank you too

  • Irene Wagner

    Thanks Clavos. I am not the one needing help. I am embarrassingly safe and happy. Peter may or may not respond, but he is also not the only one reading. Gao Zisheng was tortured for doing good, Clavos. This article seemed like a good place to talk about it.

  • Irene Wagner

    Thank you Pete! Thanks for thinking it over.

  • http://www.facebook.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Irene,

    I have become a very big fan of social whatchamajiggy sites. I have recently joined facebook. I like twitter still, it has it’s good points. In fact each one has its own thing it is particularly good for, to me. Twitter is the best for following protests and actions as they happen. Twitter has anarchists on it, but mostly they are ancaps. Facebook has tons of anarchists from all over the world, and I have yet to meet one who is an anarcho-capitalist. I wish I could learn about 5 languages instantly.

    Anyhow, this is a long roundabout way to say 1) we signed the petition, 2) I twittered it and three people retweeted it. and 3) facebook lets a person start a group. For example one could start a group about this particular person, Gao Zisheng. One then can then send out the info to people and suggest they join the group and sign the petition.

    It is just a suggestion you might like. I plan on starting a group that buys livestock for African families who are in need of assistance.

    My URL is set to my facebook account if you are not on there and would like to be. A lot of people would join such a group.

    (P.S. No explanation is necessary if you decline. It is just information you may wish to use.) xxoo

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    And Ruvy, I will finally speak to you, too.
    For the love of G-D, Ruvy, hold your peace for once.

    NO.

    “For Zion’s sake, I shall not be silent and for Jerusalem’s sake I will not be still, until her righteousness emanates as a bright light, and her salvation blazes as a torch” [Yeshaiah/Isaiah 62:1]

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    But, Irene, I ‘ll not carry forth arguments over persecution of Christians from another thread to this one; there is no need. Go in peace and plead the case of your co-religionist.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Gao Zisheng’s religious beliefs are really entirely beside the point. In his case what matters is that his advocacy for human rights was enough to get him tortured and disappeared like thousands before him who tried to do good in the face of institutionalized evil.

    It is much easier to point out ethnic/sectarian violence as I did in my article than to make people understand that the Chinese do this sort of thing to their own people as well.

    Ethnicity, education and past service to the state clearly will not protect you when your activism comes to be perceived as a threat to the established order. In fact, I would guess that the reaction is in many ways more harsh to those who are perceived as traitors like Gao Zisheng than it is for those who are perceived as outsiders like the Uighurs.

    Dave

  • Irene Wagner

    Ruvy in 84. Yeah, ya gotta shout when the Spirit says, “Shout.” Thanks for not ripping on me for talking about Gao. I wish peace for you, too.

    Cindy – Thanks for caring about this. Sometimes a person can feel like a Lost Causes Clearinghouse. But its all about the starfish. :*) Bye for now, Cindy.

  • http://www.facebook.com/tolstoyscat Cindy
  • Clavos

    Cindy,

    You should stop using tinyurl to format your links. That site is notorious for uploading spyware to computers that access it, for which reason millions of savvy users refuse to open their links.

    I would love to watch that film, but can’t.

  • Bliffle

    Clavos,

    Switch to linux.

  • http://twitter.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Here is the link Clav.

  • Clavos

    Thanks, Cindy.

  • Clavos

    Bliffle,

    It’s not my browser, it’s my firewall (ZoneAlarm), and I can ignore it and proceed, but won’t.

    Tinyurl needs to quit polluting users’ hard drives with crap.

  • Irene Wagner

    CINDY – as to your link, I’m coming up with a name, but you’ll know me when you see me. It won’t be until later on this summer, though. Thanks again!

  • Bliffle

    Clavos,

    You need a different OS, not just a browser or firewall.

    Windows is poisoned with Active-X, which has big holes through which one can drive truckloads of viruses and worms.

    Also, Adobe “Flash” has holes: some windeows security functions were delegated to Flash.

  • Bliffle

    Microsoft migrated the ActiveX code down into the OS so no one who uses windows is safe from ActiveX security leaks.

    ZDnet article

    ZDnet comment A

    ZDnet comment B

  • http://www.facebook.com/tolstoyscat Cindy

    Irene,

    :-)

    you’ll know me when you see me

    I am sure I will…