First thing, check it out here.
...
Seen it now? Good.
There are, broadly speaking, two possibilities here.
Either: 1) John Kerry lied about/distorted his true four-month record of service in Vietnam, or 2) These guys (a group that includes multiple Bronze Star recipients) are all lying scum who are unfairly trying to discredit a fellow veteran.
The hard-core Kerry supporters will obviously not change their vote over this. But this ad could possibly sway those who merely dislike President Bush (who may stay home on Election Day or vote for Nader instead), and those who are still undecided.
And then there is always the chance that a backlash of sorts occurs and harms the Republicans. But I find this unlikely because the Bush campaign is hardly embracing this ad. They are sure to distance themselves from it, when questioned about it.
(In response, the Democrats are predictably attempting to muzzle free speech that they disagree with...)
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Brian
Because of the lovely new McCain/Feingold law, this would have better timed to come out in about mid-October when people are starting to get serious about who to vote for. But because we have to supress free speech in favor of Campaign Finance Reform, we're hearing it now while they can still talk about it.
I honestly think this only hurts JFK with the Naderites. Those people are getting hammered HARD for their beliefs and if anything, now they have more proof that JFK is a sack of crap.
Of course, this is all meaningless if Nader turns tail (which I think he will) and throws his support to Kerry giving Kerry a boost two weeks before election and handing over a chunk of swing voters who vote for "whoever they think is going to win".
2 - johnboy
Ok, sorry, I'm australian and we have preferential voting (i.e. if applied to the US presidential election; a vote of 1 for nader and 2 for kerry would see kerry get your vote if nader finishes last).
What on earth is the point of voting for someone just because you think they'll win???
It's not like picking stocks where it makes you money...
3 - htom
It's entirely possible that both sides are lying scum, too.
4 - Tom
I see no reason why they'd lie. Who has more to gain from lying. A man who wanted to be President and even took over a camera to catch his exploits, or a bunch of veterans who, up until a few months ago were just accountnts, teachers, and normal people.
5 - Shark
Tom: "...I see no reason why they'd lie."
And how's the weather on Mars?
6 - Justene
In fairness to Tom, this was the usual defense of Anita Hill. I think Hill had reason to lie but I don't think she was lying. I think the Vets have reason to lie and I haven't heard nearly enough to decide whether I think they are.
We often heard about what Kennedy, Bush 41 and McCain did in war. With Kerry it seems he talks more about the medals than what happened. That would raise my suspicions, if I cared. Frankly, I don't care what any of them did. I want to know what they're going to do.
7 - Doc
And here's the first retraction "Swift Boat Vets" (none of whom actually served under Kerry) by one of those appearing in the commercial in the Boston Globe today:
WASHINGTON -- A week after Senator John F. Kerry heralded his wartime experience by surrounding himself at the Democratic convention with his Vietnam ''Band of Brothers," a separate group of veterans has launched a television ad campaign and a book that questions the basis for some of Kerry's combat medals.
But yesterday, a key figure in the anti-Kerry campaign, Kerry's former commanding officer, backed off one of the key contentions. Lieutenant Commander George Elliott said in an interview that he had made a ''terrible mistake" in signing an affidavit that suggests Kerry did not deserve the Silver Star -- one of the main allegations in the book. The affidavit was given to The Boston Globe by the anti-Kerry group to justify assertions in their ad and book
8 - Dirtgrain
"I see no reason why they'd lie."
That's good stuff. I had to throw that line out less than ten minutes into my first day of teaching. Besides, as George Costanza says, "It's not a lie if you believe [as in lie to yourself that] it's true." Right Bush?
9 - Jim Carruthers
There's a whole piece in Salon today outlining the backroom dealings of this ad, in short, it is just Nixon-era dirty tricks. Yet another addition to how shameful and dis-credited USA politics is seen to be internationally.
So apparently you have a clear choice between lying sacks of shit or sacks of lying shit to appear as the facade of that you call "democracy".
Wow, that's really sad that you are so willing to accept such a sham as your government.
10 - Hal Pawluk
Here's what John McCain says about the ad:
I don't give a flying fajita for the question "why would they want lie," but here's a thought:
11 - Shark
The 'retraction' will get as much news as Sandy Berger's innocence.
12 - RedTard
The Boston Globe retraction story was conveniently written by Michael Kranish, author of a Kerry biography, who is currently working on his second book covering JFK. I would like to see the transcripts of the actual interview with Elliot. According to the Swiftboat vets forum Elliot is claiming he was quoted out of context in the article.
Hard news is so intertwined with opinion and even lies that it is very hard to get the truth these days.
13 - Jim Carruthers
And can I ask, since none of you furious wankers has; what in any remote imagination, does this have to do with responsible and accountable government?
You bunch of idiots might as well be debating the colour of the "candidates" socks (which will be made into puppets).
And the correct answer is: not a jot, you might as just be shouting at each other. Oh, wait, you idjits already are.
Just get the whole wank-fest over with, will you?
14 - Eric Olsen
Jim, might as well take a nap for the next 3+ months, then.
15 - Jim Carruthers
mmmmmm, nap-time, fueled by nice Afghani hash. mmmmmm, nap-time, supported by a couple of movies, and a soundtrack.
mmmmmm, don't think about anything, just be afraid, because you can't do anything about it anyways.
16 - Kevin
John Kerry has made the fact he is a Vietnam vet a central part of his campaign, so I'm not surprised, nor do I feel it's wrong, that these vets have come out against him.
As for George Elliott and his "retraction", he has come out and said he is not retracting anything he said about Kerry.
17 - GAnders
This is a disgrace for America! I am a Republican who is tired of all this horse-shit slinging. The ultimate question lies in who is more capable. In 4 years Bush has not done one thing constructive for America. When the two houses are Republican controlled, why can't they get anything done.
The economy is exactly like it was under Bush-1. All of my customers are barely hanging on. None are doing well, just getting by. This includes all size companies in the NY metro area!
I will say at least Kerry did serve on active duty. As people get older facts and truths change in their mind,especially when it is hear say evidence with the swiftvets. Bush can't
find his paystubs or proof he actually served. What if Bush got paid but never showed up? Wouldn't that be fraud for cashing reservists pay checks?
18 - Mark Saleski
check out factcheck for more on this.
19 - Rodney Welch
From today's Wall Street Journal -- words from a man who was there:
On March 13, 1969, John Kerry's courage and leadership saved my life.
While returning from a SEA LORDS operation along the Bay Hap River, a mine detonated under another swift boat. Machine-gun fire erupted from both banks of the river, and a second explosion followed moments later. The second blast blew me off John's swift boat, PCF-94, throwing me into the river. Fearing that the other boats would run me over, I swam to the bottom of the river and stayed there as long as I could hold my breath.
When I surfaced, all the swift boats had left, and I was alone taking fire from both banks. To avoid the incoming fire, I repeatedly swam under water as long as I could hold my breath, attempting to make it to the north bank of the river. I thought I would die right there. The odds were against me avoiding the incoming fire and, even if I made it out of the river, I thought I'd be captured and executed. Kerry must have seen me in the water and directed his driver, Del Sandusky, to turn the boat around. Kerry's boat ran up to me in the water, bow on, and I was able to climb up a cargo net to the lip of the deck. But, because I was nearly upside down, I couldn't make it over the edge of the deck. This left me hanging out in the open, a perfect target. John, already wounded by the explosion that threw me off his boat, came out onto the bow, exposing himself to the fire directed at us from the jungle, and pulled me aboard.
For his actions that day, I recommended John for the Silver Star, our country's third highest award for bravery under fire. I learned only this past January that the Navy awarded John the Bronze Star with Combat V for his valor. The citation for this award, signed by the Commander of U.S. Naval Forces, Vietnam, Vice Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, read, "Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry's calmness, professionalism and great personal courage under fire were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service." To this day I am grateful to John Kerry for saving my life. And to this day I still believe that he deserved the Silver Star for his courage.
To bounce Tom's question back at him: is Jim Rassman lying?
P.S. The ad quotes a man named George Elliott, who says Kerry is lying about his service in Vietnam. Take a look at what Mr. Elliott said in 1969:
"In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action, LTJG Kerry was unsurpassed. He constantly reviewed tactics and lessons learned in river operations and applied his experience at every opportunity. On one occasion, while in tactical command of a three boat operation his units were taken under fire from ambush. LTJG Kerry rapidly assessed the situation and ordered his units to turn directly into the ambush. This decision resulted in routing the attackers with several KIA. LTJG Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group. His bearing and appearance are above reproach. He has of his own volition learned the Vietnamese language and is instrumental in the successful Vietnamese training program. During the period of this report LTJG Kerry has been awarded the Silver Star medal, the Bronze Star medal, the Purple Heart medal (2nd and 3rd awards)."[U.S. Navy, Officer Fitness Report signed by George Elliott; 18, Dec 1969]
Now who's lying?
20 - El Bow
Jerome Corsi, is the co-author of the Swift Boat Veteran's book Unfit for Command, and a frequent contributor to various forums hosted by freerepublic.com. Among his comments:
CORSI: Maybe while he's there he can tell the UN what he's going to do about the sexual crimes committed by "priests" in his "Church" during his tenure. Or, maybe that's the connection -- boy buggering in both Islam and Catholicism is okay with the Pope as long as it isn't reported by the liberal press. (03/03/2003)
CORSI: So this is what the last days of the Catholic Church are going to look like. Buggering boys undermines the moral base and the laywers (in original) rip the gold off the Vatican altars. We may get one more Pope, when this senile one dies, but that's probably about it.
(12/16/2002)
CORSI: Let's see exactly why it isn't the case that Islam is a worthless, dangerous Satanic religion? Where's the proof to the contrary? (04/24/2004)
CORSI: Islam is like a virus -- it affects the mind -- maybe even better as an analogy -- it is a cancer that destroys the body it infects... No doctor would hesitate to eliminate cancer cells from the body. (11/26/02)
CORSI: Islam is a peaceful religion as long as the women are beaten, the boys buggered, and the infidels killed. (11/22/2002)
CORSI: Isn't the Democratic Party the official SODOMIZER PROTECTION
ASSOCIATION of AMERICA -- oh, I forgot, it was just an accident that Clintoon's first act in office was to promote "gays in the military." RAGHEADS are Boy-Bumpers as clearly as they are Women-Haters -- it all goes together. (11/18/2001)
Check it out at:
http://mediamatters.org/items/200408060010.
William E. Franke is a member of the Steering Committee of the Swift Boat Veterans. According to their website, Mr. Franke "serves as President and Chief Executive Officer of a privately held corporation engaged real estate development, computer technologies, and international trade."
http://www.swiftvets.com/staticpages/index.php?page=Franke
This privately held corporation is Gannon International, Ltd. Franke's bio is at http://www.gannonintl.com/BiographicalSketches.htm#wf
One of their subsidiaries is The Gannon Pacific Group. If you're ever in Vietnam, you can contact them at:
Gannon Company (Hong Kong) Ltd.
Resident Representative Office
4th Floor, PDD Building
162 Pasteur Street
District 1
Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam
Telephone: 011-848-822-7347
Facsimile: 011-848-822-7350
Gannon Company (Hong Kong) Ltd.
Resident Branch Office
Suite B-9
Harison Business Center
40 Cat Linh Street
Dong Da District
Hanoi, Vietnam
Telephone: 011-844-733-2515
Facsimile: 011-844-733-2517
http://www.gannonintl.com/contact.htm
21 - Mike Kole
For once I agree with Jim in Downtown Canada! What John Kerry alleges and what some vets allege should never be the issue carrying the day.
Viet Nam is a NON-ISSUE. Or should be. It is pathetic that such passion goes into the defense of either pointless side of this irrelevant side show.
Kerry has a legislative record. Bush has a presidential record. Talk about the records and vote on these!
If these records are so irrelevant, and things the candidate did so long ago are completely relevant, then there is no good reason at all for excluding Nader and Badnarik from much wider consideration. Come on. You guys all hate third parties. Act like there is a difference.
22 - K. Mann
Let the records speak for itself then vote! Problem is, that Bush's records always seem to disappear.
Are be better off today then 4 years ago? Absolutlely not!
23 - Chris Dixon
First I must say that as a recently retired member of the United States Navy with over 22 years of naval service and looking at the facts or what is supposed to be fact. that in my 22 years of Naval service i have never witnessed anyone in a 4 month tour of duty (only 3 months in a combat zone) get a silver star, a bronze star, and three purple hearts and being well enough to actually walk. where are the medical records that show these horrendous wounds. bet you will never see them. I am so sick and tired of people who have never served their country in any shape or form talk about john kerry as a hero (hero my ass) i have been around long enough to see how the awards process works in the military. What you have here is a guy that tooted his own horn and the guys he served with are calling his bluff. as a naval aircrewman i had the opportuinity to serve and fly with some of the bravest young men and women our nation has to offer. none get the credit they deserve nor would they ask of it. what we really have. (on the left)is a group of people that think that america is here for their needs and wants. I am so sorry that you dont make enough money to buy a god damn hum vee or that some government agency has had it's funds cut and that lazy 20 year old piece of shit that still lives in you house cant get free money to go to college. God help us all...half of the U.S. are a bunch of half wit's. They think we should all live in utopia. Hey folk's guess what. Most of the world hates your guts and would like to see you and you children wiped off the face of the earth. Go ahead and vote for john. if you think he is really going to save you. pack a bag and be ready to leave that big city in a moments notice..cause you have been warned. i am not a huge GW fan, but you know after living serving in the military under Carter and slick willy, we are damn lucky we got one that will not put up with crap from third world wanna be's and so called friendly nations.. wake up america...step away for a minute and ask yourself, are you ready to flee your home..I am not, maybe you are but if it takes a good ass kicking, rest assured we will sure give them one.. AW1(AW)/NAC U.S. Navy FltRes
24 - Shark
"...i have never witnessed anyone in a 4 month tour of duty (only 3 months in a combat zone) get a silver star, a bronze star, and three purple hearts..."
Your personal anecdote doesn't mean shit, and can easily be negated by other personal anecdotes.
ie:
In WWII, my father was in the Normandy hedgerows about a month and got a Star, a Bronze Star, and was offered the Purple Heart a few times. (Turned the PH down because he and others in WWII thought it was bad luck to wear sport a medal saying you'd been wounded.)
BTW: He was offered those Purple Hearts because of minor shrapnel wounds. I don't know the exact standards, but he told me if you were bleeding from a wound, you could get a PH.
25 - Shark
BTW: No offense to anyone in particular, but I'm really SICK of reading posts that say, "As a veteran..." --- as if that gives you some authority relative to wading through the massive amount of shit tossed up by the GOP Smear Machine against Kerry.
Your military service doesn't give your opinion ANY special weight on the matter of the legitimacy of Right-Wing Propaganda.