The 20 Greatest Black-and-White Films Ever Made - Page 2

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• 1 - fussyfreddy

  Apr 17, 2004 at 7:12 pm

  Didn't you mean to call your list "My 20 Favorite Black-and-White Films?
  
  You'd have a tough time defending #4, #11, #14, #16, #18, #19, #20, and #25 against the following list, and dozens of other movies:
  
  "Double Indemnity," "Brief Encounter," "The Maltese Falcon," "The Wages of Fear," "All About Eve," "Nights of Cabiria," "High Noon," "Bride of Frankenstein," "Rashomon," "The Scarlett Empress," "Duck Soup," "Destry Rides Again," "Notorious!"... Need I go on?
  
  Also: if you're going to hype "Metropolis" (which I, too would have done), and "Pandora's Box" (not even as good as "Diary of A Lost Girl," Brooks' companion piece), you might also warn that both films have been so mangled over the years, readers they may never see them as you or I did -- let alone as the director intended.
  
  FussyFreddy
  
  PS: Cheers on including "Dr. Strangelove." It always was one of the greatest movies ever made, and has distrurbingly improved with age.
  
  But can you offer even one good reason "Citizen Kane" or "The Seven Samurai" would have been better in color?
  
  (A lot of folks would ask the same of "Casablanca," especially given the disastrous results when Ted Turner colorized it. I never cared enough about the movie to give a hoot).

• 2 - Chris Kent

  Apr 17, 2004 at 8:14 pm

  Well Fussyfreddy, if I had called my list "My Favorite" no one would have commented. Hell, I was beginning to think no one was going to comment anyway! Thanks!
  
  I want argue my inclusions except briefly. I tried to include films from all genres, horror, sci-fi, drama, foreign, and tried to include films which seem to play better in black and white - were made for black and white. Outdoor epics were made for color, which is why I left off "Seven Samurai" and "Rashomon" (which I don't consider even one of Kurosawa's three best films). I suppose check out "Ran" for an idea. I left off "Citizen Kane" because that mansion is just screaming to be in color. No reason to fret, I included "Touch of Evil" - one can never ignore Mr. Welles.
  
  On to your choices:
  
  "Double Indemnity" is certainly deserving, but found myself having to include only one Wilder film, and I consider "Sunset Blvd." superior. It would have made my top 30.
  
  "Brief Encounter" is not even one of David Lean's three best films, and his work was always more at home in Technicolor ("Lawrence of Arabia").....
  
  "The Maltese Falcon," while directed by John Huston, was so similar to "The Big Sleep," that I had to leave it off as I like Hawks' film a bit more. Huston's "Treasure of the Sierra Madre" would have made my top 30.
  
  "The Wages of Fear" is absolutely deserving and can't argue with that.
  
  "All About Eve" is more dialogue and brilliant acting than mood or sets. Great film, but could have easily played in color.
  
  "Nights of Cabiria" is a fine film but would not have made my top 40.
  
  "High Noon" I agonized over and am still in agony. It's a top 30, but found myself having to include only one Western, and had to include "My Darling Clementine" for two reasons - it's directed by John Ford, and I think it's a better film.
  
  "Bride of Frankenstein" is another top 30 choice, and came very close to putting it on this list. But horror was already represented, and decided to include "Young Frankenstein" because it was a film where black and white was purposefully and masterfully used...
  
  "The Scarlett Empress" and "Duck Soup" would not have even made my top 40.
  
  I thought "Destry Rides Again" was in color. Am I wrong here? Or am I getting that mixed up with "Dodge City?" Either way, I can think of at least five westerns other than that one to include ("High Noon," "Stagecoach," "Red River," "Fort Apache," "the Man Who Shot Liberty Valance")
  
  "Notorious" is a masterpiece, but "Spellbound" ranked higher on my list. Hitchcock's finest work ("Rear Window" and "Vertigo") was in color in my opinion. I consider "Psycho" only his third best film, and realized I could only include one of his black and white works.
  
  I am impressed with your mentioning of "Diary of A Lost Girl," I think "Pandora's Box is superior, have always loved it, and am satisfied for the most part with my video copy. But a great mention never-the-less...
  
  I love "Casablanca," but the success of that film had little to do with sets or direction. It was a lucky break with Bogart and Bergman burning up the screen. It could have just as easily been in color.
  
  Some impressive mentions though and thanks!

• 3 - Aaron, Duke De Mondo

  Apr 18, 2004 at 8:22 am

  Fine list, Chris, Although i myself would have put Manhattan at #1, probably on account of it being the Certified Duke De Mondo Best Film Ever. As for Citizen Kane in colour, i have to make like a communist and get all disagreeing. That lighting, those shadows, that could never have been replicated to any effect in colour. As to my own list, there's plenty on yours that would be on mine also, except i would have had Bride Of Frankenstien in the top 5. And where was "M"? Personally i think it was Lang's best film. I would also add The War Game, which is not only one of the best documantaries ever ITDO (In The Duke's Opinion), but also one of the best films ever. And what of Birth Of A Nation or Intolerance? We could go on and on, but Kudos to you for this fine selection, and however much i may personally love Citizen Kane, it was profoundly refreshing to see it relegated to a footnote here. Cheers.

• 4 - Aaron, Duke De Mondo

  Apr 18, 2004 at 8:24 am

  Argh! I forgot about Strike, Battleship Potemptkin and October, a solid-gold trilogy of wonderment from our man in the proles, Eisenstien.

• 5 - Rodney Welch

  Apr 18, 2004 at 8:59 am

  Chris, Your list is blandly unobjectionable up to the last statement. If there are three things I can thank God do not exists, it would be actual color versions of Casablanca, Citizen Kane, and The Seven Samurai. How in the world you came up with such an opinion astounds me. The B&W photography of Kane is vital to the success of that film, aned far more influential than that of any film you name.

• 6 - Chris Kent

  Apr 18, 2004 at 9:41 am

  Thanks Duke,
  
  I love M but only wanted to include one Fritz Lang film (Metropolis).....I struggled with Brid of Frankenstein as much as I struggled with High Noon and Double Indemnity and suppose it had as much to do with which side of the bed I awoke on than anything else. Bride of Frankenstein is one of the great, great films of all time and should probably reconsider that exclusion.
  
  The cult of DW Griffith has always left me a bit perplexed. I know he made incredible strides in moviemaking, but I sit through Birth of a Nation and blush, with disturbing themes and so on. Battleship Potemptkin I also considered but came to the conclusion this was NOT to be a greatest film ever made list, but a list of the greatest black and white films. I wanted to include films from different genres.
  
  I am so sick of everyone pulling Citizen Kane out of their ass. Yes, we all know it's one of the great films in history, but decided to chuck a few of the obvious choices out the door. I genuinely believe Citizen Kane, the great Holy Grail of films for all cinema lovers residing on some fiery mountaintop next to God's Ten Commandments, would have been an improved film in color. Touch of Evil, a seedy B Movie in many ways, was made for black and white.....
  
  As usual, your comments are appreciated Duke!

• 7 - Chris Kent

  Apr 18, 2004 at 9:51 am

  Rodney,
  
  I never said Citizen Kane, Casablanca and The Seven Samurai should be colorized. I think we all know what a disaster that was......I said they would have been better films had they been made in color, thus they did not make my list.
  
  I made this list in response to a poster who claimed he did not watch black-and-white films because he thought them boring. Thus I made a list of personal favorites to serve as a starting point for anyone who has never seen a black-and-white film. These are films I feel most appropriately utilize black and white and I tried to cover all boundaries, and included some favorites that do not normally make lists of this type.
  
  If it is bland, then I suppose I am a bland person. All Greatest Films lists include Citizen Kane, film lovers farting the greatness of Welles ad nauseam.......For this list to have truly been bland, I would have included the very three films you object to....
  
  I appreciate your comments, as misguided as they are.....

• 8 - Rodney Welch

  Apr 18, 2004 at 10:39 am

  No, Chris, you misunderstand me. I didn't mean you thought they should be colorized. I meant I thought it perfectly completely totally 100 percent insane that you thought they would be better in color at all. I simply fail to understand why in the world you think Sunset Boulevard or any of those films you name are great black and white films, and Citizen Kane, Casablanca and The Seventh Samurai should have been shot in color. It makes no sense whatsoever. The black and white ambience is every bit as indelible in those three films as it is in the films you list, if not more so. The richness and depth of B&W photography that Gregg Toland achieved in Kane was vastly influential; in terms of depth of field and composition, it's a virtual textbook of what can be achieved using the format. This is something the cinematographers in Visions of Light (1992) point out over and again. People have admiringly joked ever since that this American film is the greatest German Expressionist film ever made. And do you really honestly think that a film like Casablanca could have been improved in color? How? Do you want to see the airport scene in anything but B&W? Or Mifune wage battle in Technicolor?

• 9 - Chris Kent

  Apr 18, 2004 at 11:03 am

  Rodney,
  
  There is nothing more I would like to see than Toshiro wage battle in Technicolor. With the exception of Ikiru, Kurosawa's films were made for color......The battles would have been extraordinary.
  
  Yes, Casablanca, to include the aiport scene, the gin joint scenes, Dooley Wilson playing the piano, would have been fascinating in color and the film would not have suffered for it.
  
  Citizen Kane also would not have suffered significantly had it been filmed in color. Sure, Welles and company were mimicking the German Expressionist style and we all get a hardy chuckle out of that. Welles and Toland, they are a real lulu.....I would have liked to have seen Xanadu's expansive rooms in color, I would have liked to have seen Xanadu in color, I would have liked to have seen Kane's childhood in color, I would have liked to have seen the opera in color.....
  
  I can't even remotely visualize Touch of Evil or even The Lady From Shanghai in color. I can Citizen Kane. Thus, I dropped it from the list like a bad habit.....

• 10 - Juliette

  Apr 18, 2004 at 11:44 am

  I know it's cheesy, but where is Some Like It Hot on the list?!
  
  One of my favourite black and white films ever...!
  
  (slopes back off to corner)

• 11 - Rodney Welch

  Apr 18, 2004 at 12:00 pm

  We'll just have to part company on this. You sound as if you yearn to see something glaringly repulsive. What I fail to understand is why you want to see the Casablanca airport in color -- why, for God's sake, WHY? -- but you apparently don't want to see Janet Leigh bleed in color or William Holden drown in color or Louise Brooks do her little erotic dance in color (think of the costumes!)
  
  Why do people love black and white to begin with? Very simple. It creates a certain haunting, dream-like mood, and you simply cannot tell me that the mood of the three films under discussion would have in any way been sustained -- or improved -- with color; it would have turned them all into vulgar spectacles.
  
  Also, I think you (and many others) grossly overrate
  i Touch of Evil --
  a set of great shots, no doubt, but that's all anyone ever remembers about it. The story itself is shallow, and doesn't really connect with the viewer emotionally quite the way either Kane or -- despite their problems -- Magnificent Ambersons or Lady from Shanghai do.

• 12 - Chris Kent

  Apr 18, 2004 at 12:36 pm

  Juliette,
  
  I would have included Wilder's Sunset Blvd and Double Indemnity long befoe Some Like it Hot. Not even sure Some Like it Hot would make my top 50.

• 13 - Chris Kent

  Apr 18, 2004 at 12:51 pm

  Rodney,
  
  It's all a matter of taste. I respect Citizen Kane and Magnificient Ambersons. I love Touch of Evil and Lady From Shanghai, and watch those films repeatedly.
  
  I don't think anyone can dispute Citizen Kane as being one of the most important films ever made. Every Welles film has a devoted following. Citizen Kane's greatness absolutely is related to the strange angles and lighting, almost all of it Welles' doing......He told a story through editing, lighting and sets, in addition to utilizing Mankiewicz's screenplay contributions. It is the classic of all films.
  
  But if trapped on a desert island with Veronica Lake and one video, I'm going to have sex with Lake (multiple times) and then pop in my copy of Touch of Evil and kick back and get a suntan....
  
  

• 14 - Juliette

  Apr 18, 2004 at 1:58 pm

  Ah well, each to their own..
  
  

• 15 - Aaron, Duke De Mondo

  Apr 18, 2004 at 2:20 pm

  Chris, just remembered another couple of B&W masterpieces - Modern Times and The Gold Rush. Modern Times has the edge as far as The Duke is concerned, and a very sharp one at that, so best get an adult to supervise.

• 16 - HW Saxton Jr.

  Apr 18, 2004 at 2:22 pm

  I've just heard that Ted Turner is going
  to re-release "The Wizard Of Oz" later
  on this year on DVD.The first 10 minutes
  of the film have been colorized.
  
  
  

• 17 - Aaron, Duke De Mondo

  Apr 18, 2004 at 2:25 pm

  First 10 minutes of Oz colourised? what kind of stupid shit is that? Are the remaining hour and a half now black and white, then? This si nonsensical nonsense. Why don't the replace the soundtrack with Dark Side Of The Moon while they're at it, so as we can all join in on those online debates and go "oooh, the guitar starts just as Dorothy sneezes!"

• 18 - HW Saxton Jr.

  Apr 18, 2004 at 2:48 pm

  Duke,In regards to the colorization of
  "The Wizard Of Oz".'Twas only a joke.
  I wouldn't put it past Ted Turner to do it though.

• 19 - Chris Kent

  Apr 18, 2004 at 3:05 pm

  Duke,
  
  Glad someone mentioned Charlie Chaplin. I prefer City Lights over Modern Times and Gold Rush, and that would be in top 30. Left off Chaplin because the beauty of his films is Chaplin himself, not really having much to do with angles, lighting, etc.....

• 20 - Chris Kent

  Apr 18, 2004 at 3:10 pm

  lol....HW is a sly one. I'm all for colorizing the first half of Wizard of Oz and making the second half in B&W.....
  
  Perhaps a list of the 20 greatest Color films that should be in B&W? No. 1 would be Gone With the Wind, followed by The Godfather and, of course, Cannibal Holocaust.....

• 21 - Chris Kent

  Apr 18, 2004 at 3:15 pm

  Someone once asked Orson Welles for his 10 favorite films. He included 12:
  
  1. City Lights
  2. Greed
  3. Intolerance
  4. Nanook of the North
  5. Shoeshine
  6. Battleship Potemkin
  7. The Baker's Wife
  8. Grand Illusion
  9. Stagecoach
  10. Ninotchka
  11. The Best Years of Our Lives
  12. The Bicycle Thief
  
  For what it's worth.....

• 22 - Shark

  Apr 18, 2004 at 3:19 pm

  I would add:
  
  Cranes are Flying (Russia, 1957 or 58)
  
  The Crowd (1928, King Vidor)
  
  Two of the greatest films ever made, regardless of arbitrary color vs b/w categories.
  
  
  

• 23 - Rodney Welch

  Apr 18, 2004 at 3:29 pm

  I saw Modern Times last Friday evening at the theatre; the restored version that played last year at Cannes and to my eye a near-perfect restoration job. I didn't see a pockmark on it; no fades, no watery tones. I think it's my favorite Chaplin, with The Great Dictator; here again is the Little Tramp, stuck in Depression-era America, wandering into one pitfall after the next, always happily going wherever he's kicked, always bearing with guileless dignity each new indignity that comes his way. Of course, that's a little easier when you've got Paulette Goddard at your side, playing the "gamin" -- surely the leggiest over-aged orphan in cinema history. It's a critique of capitalism that is as scathing as it is sentimental, and -- as a basically silent film with title cards that also employed sound and spoken dialogue -- it's a fond farewell to an era of cinema. It's still hilariously funny, and eventhough I'm always the first one to say Keaton is better than Chaplin, and that the ending of City Lights is the corniest thing I've ever seen, I found myself overcome with renewed admiration. It has one brilliant sequence after the next: that Kafkaesque Feeding Machine is still just an absolute laugh riot.

• 24 - Chris Kent

  Apr 18, 2004 at 3:44 pm

  Thanks Shark for the fully expected obscure listings. Since I have seen neither I will not comment, though would like to mention King Vidor's work, for the most part, rings with the crystal clear tune of breaking wind....Though I will not knock him too much as he was born in Texas, and he did give us Our Daily Bread.....
  
  Rodney,
  I loved The Great Dictator though have not seen it in a long time. I was lucky enough to see both Modern Times and City Lights for the first time at the theater, and am still amazed by how extraordinary those films are. Chaplin was a genius equal to Welles in many ways.

• 25 - Aaron, Duke De Mondo

  Apr 18, 2004 at 5:42 pm

  Of course i knew it was a joke! Ha! You imagine the duke would be duped by such nonsense. (cough)
  Enough! I knew it was a joke you motherfuckers! You cannot play such a trick on me!
  (ahem)
  Actually you got me.
  As to chaplin, Modern Times and Great Dictator are my faves, even though i mentioned Gold Rush above. Gold Rush is a better film than GD, just happen to prefer the latter. Crazy times, man.
  The DVD release of the chaplin films recently has resulted in gorgeous, spotless prints as mentioned above.
  And as for that cheeky Cannibal Holocaust reference...

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