This is a most impressive film, extracting facts from the history of religious terrorism on U.S. soil...
On September 11, 1857, a devastating and controversial real life massacre of 120 men, women, and children took place in Mountain Meadows, Utah. This film integrates a romantic drama in a Romeo and Juliet-type love story to set a backdrop for a tragedy wrought by religious fanaticism.…
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— go to most recent comments176 - A
I don't know of the book that you speak of is available. I will certainly look into it. I am leaving this blog.
However, I want to wish you, Michael, Randy, and Chris and everyone else good luck in all that you each are researching. I hope that you can all find whatever it is you are seaking out. Mine has been to prove the innocents for my ancestor. I have 30 others direct Mormon pioneer ancestors who were not near the massacre, but only one accused. One of whom definitely doesn't deserve to be on the Francher list. I have truly enjoyed your views. God bless always :))
177 - jb
September Dawn- THE WORST MOVIE I HAVE EVER SEEN!!! A lousy fiction as well.
178 - nah!
Hopefully the movie Elizabeth coming out this Friday will be a little more accurate in history than that of September Dawn. I like Cate Blanchett. She acts well. However,never know about Hollywood scripts.
September Dawn was not history. Very confusing movie. Kind of a hate filled movie. The Mormons were too funny to be a real. Where did Hollywood get such twisted views on Mormonism. I'm not Mormon , but like accurate history in movies. I give September Dawn " NO RATING " Too bad to rate.
179 - nah!
By the way....I heard that some of the descentants of some the Francher/Baker Party from the M M M are not supporting the Movie September Dawn as true history. Some are imbarassed by the film as are the Mormons. They claim there was never any Love story as told in the film. I hate bad fictions and this movie was a bad fiction. Nothing true about the movie. Try a new film and put some real history events in the film.
180 - A
Michael,
I forgot which blog you were on and finely found you again. The book that you mentioned to me a few days ago should be out soon. The 3 LDS historians book by Ronald Walker, Richard Turley and Glen Leonard, by Oxford University. I'm interested in buying this book. Perhaps it will put some things to rest within my own mind as well.
However, I will not return to this blog. So good luck with seeking out the truth. You are a very intelligent person, from what I have read that you have written. The same goes for our friends Randy and Chris. BEST WISHES! Bye now :))
181 - A
So Sorry!
Michael,
I was checking out the book I mentioned to you and it is already available. I found it on amazon.com for 29.95. It's called "Massacre at Mountain Meadows" by the 3 authors I previously mentioned to you.
I will be reading it.
Once again, Best Wishes :))
182 - Michael D
"A"
Thanks. I will get it.
183 - Michael D
Turley? I wonder if he is related to the historian Turley from the 1900's who wrote the first historical account?
184 - Michael D
I mean 1890's
185 - Sandy
Gosh...you people have serious problems. Don't you think that it's a little odd that you are so pationately aroused by a movie? OK, so you don't like the movie huh? Well then don't watch it again. It's that simple. Instead of doing that you guys just whip yourselves up into somekind of religious frenzy. You guys are sooo hostile I can't believe it. On most blogs people at least manage to keep things civil but most of you don't even try. Only punks and weaklings use strong words over the internet. After all, you can't get a black eye on a blog. It's like the freaking Middle Ages in here. If you don't like what someone has to say then don't listen. The only thing you accomplish by letting yourselves become so emotional and irrational about something as mundane as a movie is to give that movie power. Even though I havn't seen the movie I would have to say that September Dawn was an awesome movie if it managed to piss so many people off. If it really was a terrrible movie then I doubt that many people would be paying such close attention to it.
Do yourselves a favor and get a life. I've never thought badly about Mormons until I saw this blog. It kinda makes me think you people arn't all there. Go fishing or something, or anyting. Just find something better to do with your time.
186 - pp
The last message on this blog was really intelligent!
187 - K.Weber
OK, THINK OF BRIGHAM YOUNG AS ROBERT E. Lee. Are your opinions of him to know that he was fighting
a civil war--contending with 1/3 of the Federal Army
approaching from the East. No way anyway can you
play this rediculos game of pin the tail on the donkey. Get JUANITA. Read her.
188 - ABC
Do I hear some HEE-HAW HEE-HAW! going on here...lol! We are all familure with those kind of animals sounds who publish propaganda.
189 - ABC
Oops.. I meant familiar
190 - SA,
Hey everybody! I suggest that we who have royal blood lines and love history, go see the new movie "ELIZABETH". It may be more accurate in history than Sept. flopperoo!
191 - Sandy
Go see Elizebeth...that sounds like a wonderful idea. Try to bear in mind though that it is just a movie. If you let everybody who opens their mouth arouse you like this then your going to be spending the rest of your life on silly blogs like this one. Like I said, if it hurts your ears and sensibilities to hear something then don't listen. If every Mormon on the planet jumps up and starts screaming about September Dawn your just going to make a lot more people want to watch the movie. Learn a lesson from our former president the moral retard William Jefferson Clinton. When something scandalous, threatening, or offensive blows in on the news just ignore it. The only time Slick Willy ever got into any trouble was when he confronted an issue. All it did was make more cameraes and news reporters look in his direction. Don't make a stink about something and pretty soon people will get bored and move on to the new topic of the week or in this case the next movie. Mormons arnt the only people to play the bad guys on the big screen. This little flick is just the barest tast of what some people get. Remember that and count yourselves lucky. So you hate a movie that tries to make you feel bad about something that happened over a hundred years ago. Try to imagine what its like growing up as a German kid and nearly every movie where Germans appear they are depicted murderous devils. Think about what kind of mark that would leave on your mind.
192 - SA
Sandy,
Well said :)
I agree with you completely!
I did see the new movie "ELIZABETH'..THE GOLDEN AGE, tonight and it was quite well done. Cate Blanchette was excellent in her portrayal of Elizabeth. It was a bit more accurate and the acting was superb! I'd give it 3 *** stars! It is good to have a good history movie on the big screen that is of good quality.
193 - ABC
Sandy, Keep your composer. I'm not a Mormon. So Let's try not to get too snappy on here with words and pass judgement.. I don't know much about Mormons. Although I did see the movie. It was quite... xkknsjeijifjkdk..hows that?
194 - C
Hey Sandy,
Could you read the blog and tell us all who is being hostile???? Let us know. I read your blog 2 days ago. Who were you referring to as hostile...Could you alborate a little.
195 - Sandy
Pretty much everybody who writes on this blog (with a few exeptions) swaggers around as if they know something. I would say that a few people who comment (1 or 2) are actual researchers. Everybody pretty much just looks on wikipedia or some stupid biased website and then calls that research. Almost nobody here really knows anything about the MMM beyond what they have been fed by others. I am almost willing to guarntee that nobody on this site has examined real physical documentation from historical sources with any kind of clear bibliography (buying a book at Barnes & Noble doesn't count). I've been a professional historian and historical researcher for almost 10 years and I can recognized BS when I see it. Almost nobody on this blog has made a credible comment and an equal number lack a real substantiated opinion on this matter. I know, I know....everybody is entitled to their opinion. So what. If your opinion is based on nothing real with no factual confirmation of relevant historical sources then their opinion doen't amount to jack. Opinions are like assholes. Some people use toilet paper though. I'm willing to bet my left arm that NOBODY on this blog has made an inquiry with the national archives looking for information related to the MMM. Has anybody examined an actual contemporary document related to the event? Has anybody made an sought to review the official military logs, records, communications diaries, of the Federal troops who investigated the event? I REALLY doubt it. Those records do actually exist. You can't sit in front of the computer for a few hours looking at various websites and call it research. The internet is bull crap and every real historian or researcher knows this. You can't trust anything that you see on it. As far as reality is concerned the internet is fairy land. All sources on the net are depended upon 5th, 20th, or 257th hand sources. On the net you can make anything look like anything. Real professional grade research takes an enormous amount of time (weeks, months, even years) to find any actual facts and even then it's not absolute since so many things are different depending on the viewers perspective. Historiography is the science of making informed guesses. If your opinion is not informed then it's worthless. Thats life. It may not sound very fair or egalitarian but its the truth.
196 - Michael D
Sandy,
Nobody has time to look at the archives. I found it interesting that the man who wrote the back bone of the Wikipedia piece said something to the effect: “I don’t have time to research this. I am caring for my father who just had a stroke”. That is why we depend upon someone like you. It sounds like you read the archives. Tell us what happened.
The problem with all the books out there is that they have biases. I was astounded to read Will Bagley’s book. I expected more from him. I tried to ignore his biases and just learn the facts. People laud his historian credentials. I’m not so sure. I think his biases clouded his writing. Juanita Brooks’s book is probably the least biased book. However, she did not have all the facts.
I’m waiting for the Turley book. I think he might be related to the Turley that wrote the first accurate account after talking to those who were still alive in the 1890’s. This report apparently has not been released to the public.
I hope the contemporary Turley does not make the same mistake that a lot of Mormon historians make when they glowingly refer to the Mormons as “Saints”. Will Bagley wrote and I paraphrase: “If you want to read a book about the ’Saints’ you are reading the wrong book”. He then employed everywhere the word “Mormons”. As I read some books by non-Mormon or, if I may use the word anti-Mormon authors, the disdain seems to leap off the page the way they employ the word “Mormon”. In recent writing by Turley he used “Latter-Day Saints”. So we might be OK.
I still agree with another blogger Hogie to some extent. People have already made up their minds. There was very brief summary what happened according to the historical record. I posted it. I challenged people to respond to it and show where the mistakes are in that account. Hogie explained in a post why nobody will respond.
The bottom line: It was a Mormon Jihad called by the leaders of Cedar City who were offended by men in wagon train. They probably said some inappropriate things. The people in the wagon train were understandably ticked off because nobody would help them. The Mormons would not help them because they were preparing for war. The leaders of Cedar City had second thoughts and tried to get guidance from Brigham Young. They tried to stop Lee but it was too late.
You can write a 500 page book but my last paragraph probably says it all and is probably accurate.
Those of us who have ancestors involved want to read a well written account of the facts. I hope Turley’s book will do that. I still think Hogie is correct in his analysis. Nobody will change their opinion.
Why did Cain not speak to Turley or other Mormon historians before making his tragic movie? Everyone in the know knows who Turley and others are.
197 - Donkey Boy
I think we all need to go do a modern-day WITCH- HUNT for all these Mormon descendants of the MMM. GOSH! This blog sounds like the Dark ages. Who's Turley?
198 - jasmine
Did I hear Picante sauce? GETTA ROPE!
199 - Michael D
Donkey Boy,
Turley is one of three Mormon historians who are coming out with a book. If you are really interested you can preorder it on Amazon. The book is supposed to include documents not seen by the public. Don’t hold your breath.
But if you do, Jasmine has some Picante sauce with the rope included at no charge. I have some Ammonia smelling salts. You can try that. I’ve had to take a whiff or two of it after what I’ve read on MMM.
200 - jasmine
Michael D,
Lol Lol!! I love this blog!
I will look on Amazon for the book. I'd love to read it, even though i'm not an almighty historian like some who claim on this blog. I would like to read the book you speak of, and and study this stuff for myself. However Mike, you sound like a sensible guy.
Nevertheless, It sounds like we have some major Mormon witch hunters on this site. Kind of scary. I guess I'm lucky that i'm not a Mormon yet, or a descendant of the Mormons, but the Mormons and their beliefs do interest me a lot....maybe I will join them someday. Maybe I will help the Mormon descendants of the M M M.
Thanks again,
201 - jasmine
I meant modern witch hunters looking for Mormons of today... So that i'm understood correctly. It's amazing that Mormons can get so much attention from those who dislike them. Very interesting?
202 - Michael D
Jasmine,
Growing up in my generation I became very thick skinned. I was always confronted on blacks and polygamy. I was treated much like Romney. People admired that I actually did not do certain stuff. One father was sincerely happy that I hung out with his son. He is very successful now. Marijuana and liquor were very popular then. They said I was not free. Another drug and alcohol addicted friend now knows just how free I was and am. He has had a disappointing life. But then they were suspicious of me much like everyone is suspicious of Romney. I remember the day when everyone looked at me like dog with its head half cocked to the side. That was the day the blacks got the Priesthood. I had a big smile on my face all day. Constantly battling the insinuation of prejudice, I believe made me and most Mormons less prejudice than the general white population at the time. While I am not an active Mormon, I am eternally thankful for the freedoms I now enjoy, thanks to my Mormon upbringing.
Nobody but I knew about MMM. For the most part only Mormons knew about that. As a result of September Dawn, MMM will be included in all history books. I don’t think it belongs there. It was a rogue operation.
203 - cc
I agree with you Michael, You sound like a nice guy. I really like the black people a lot. They are some of the nicest people I know. I'm happy they have the Mormon priesthood. They make great Mormons.
204 - Donkey Boy
Hey Michael,
Sorry about your dad. Hope he gets better.
205 - jasmine
I hope your dad gets to feeling better too. Strokes are not good.
206 - Michael D
My dad is fine. The guy who wrote most of the Wikipedia piece on MMM said his dad had a stroke. Thanks for your concerne anyway.
207 - cc
I guess Sandy got a life as she so expressed for us all to do.. She dissapeared. I still haven't found the right life yet. Oh, how I have tried. I even ware "Life Is Good" t-shirts, but it hasn't helped me, not at all! -- Maybe I need to join the Mormons too. They seem to me like pretty neat people and I need some good religion in my life. Bye guys!
208 - JR
Man, that Sandy woman is hostile! What going on this blog....GURRRRRRRRRR!! Her language is un becoming. Whewwwwwww!
209 - Chris
To Jasmine:
Do you have any idea what you are talking about? You said something about the "insinuation of prejudice"? Since I started looking at this blog I've had the opportunity to review many of the writings of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and many other prominent Mormon from the past. I can tell you for a fact that the church considered all peoples of color to be inferior and unclean. Thats not my opinion, those are the words of your prophets. If you care to debate me then I can reference you to the writings in question. They are pretty clear. Your church seems to have over time disregarded many of the teachings of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and others. I'm not saying that YOU are rascist, but I am saying that the teachings of Young, Smith, and others were in fact rascist.
210 - Chris
I meant to address that to Michael D
211 - Michael D
Chris,
It’s nice to read you again.
I come from pioneer heritage. When I grew up the Church was very white. I don’t go to church very often, but not long ago I did. Wow, what a change. At this one church blacks are about 10 % which is what you would expect. I think that there is a black general authority now.
Then there was that famous court case where the Mormon couple over the objection of the black social worker adopted a black child. My cousin adopted a black child. Hey, even Steven Spielberg adopted a black child. I know this because I spoke to him. Didn’t Madonna do the same? I think Angele Joe Lee (sp?) and Brad Pitt will adopt a black child if they haven’t already done it. That brings us back to MMM. She is related to Christopher Cain, the tragic director of September Dawn.
The world is moving on Chris.
Christ brought Christianity to the Jews and excluded the Gentiles. I forget, was it Paul who reluctantly taught them Christianity. Why?
There is this Mormon group. I think they call themselves Genesis. They formed some unofficial branches in Africa. Some of their writings are very interesting.
Jasmine is nice. Don't get us confused.
212 - jasmine
Chris
I don't appreciate your comment. I just happen to stop by tonight for a brief look again at this site, which will be my last. I'm not a racist. I'm not even a Mormon yet.... You don't make any sense! Why are you so hostile towards Mormons. What have they done to you?
I'm afraid from reading you, that you are the racist. Have a great life.....I'm out of here!
Michael, take care of this guy. He's impossible!
Also, I really like my black Mormon friends in the Mormon church too. They are great! WONDERFUL PEOPLE!
213 - Chris
So now I hate black people huh? I AM BLACK.
214 - jasmine
One last word to Michael D. I appreciate your kindness on this site. Keep trying to get through to others with your great insight of Mormonism. Kindness is always a good choice.
However, I cannot handle those who express so much hostile hate.
see ya!
215 - Michael D
Jasmine,
You are a sweetheart. Thanks for enriching my life.
216 - Chris
Gosh, Jasmine. I don't know what to say. I unintentionally addressed you in my last message. If you had looked at my most recent comment which I posted just after the first message you would have seen that I did this in error. I was infact addressing Michael D. I did not call you or Michael D a rascist. I merely pointed out that up until the church changed it did in fact teach that people of color LIKE MYSELF were unclean. Joseph Smith did actually teach that as did Brigham Young and many other later prophets of the LDS church.
If you don't believe me I can point you to those writings where they make themselves perfectly clear in this matter. Church doctrine states that dark skinned peoples are dark because of the sinful nature of their ancestors. If you believe that then I can only hope and pray that someday you join the 21st century with the rest of us. People of color are darked skin because they are indiginous to the equatorial regions of the earth where there is much more direct sunlight. A little extra pigment in the skin can help out a whole lot in the Earths warmer climates such as in Africa or India. The church also teaches that Caucasians are white skinned because of their virtue. Whites are infact light skinned because of the northern latitudes in which they made their homes.
Doctrine states that Jews of the Bible were white skinned. Anybody who knows anything knows that this is a lie. Jesus himself wasn't white but a dark skinned man who would have looked more like Osama Bin Laden than the milky white brown haired blue eyed man that the Mormons and so many other people imagine Jesus to have been. Jesus wouldn't even have had a beard and he certainly wouldn't have had long hair. In classical 1st century Judaism only married men grew beards and it was considered a sin for a man to have long hair. The Jesus you probably think about is the Renaisance Jesus that was modeled upon the social norms of that day and as a result had long hair a bushy beard and white milky skin.
If you don't believe what I am saying about church doctrine than I would be more than happy to direct you to Joseph Smith's own writings where he clearly spells out his rascist doctrine. Brigham Young was even worse. I can show you!!! Are you afraid to see?
Participating on this blog has prompted me to learn more about Mormons and their beliefs. I've been reading not from what you people like to call "antimormon" sources but directly from the LDS Church itself. One funny thing that I've discovered is that modern day Mormons profess the belief that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, but yet it seems like the church has abandoned a great deal of his teachings. Don't you find this strange? Why are some of his teachings retained and others abandoned. If Joseph Smith was a prophet of God then what he taught must have been true. The church has abandoned many of Smiths teachings so does that mean that they are not true anymore? Can the truth stop being the truth? Can you adequately answer this question?
Oh, and by the way Michael D, Jesus did not bring Christianity only to the Jews. He said that He brought the Gospel for the ALL NATIONS. And his Church did not disapear from the Earth like Mormons claim. Jesus himself said that he was establishing his Kingdom and that the "gates of Hades would not prevail against it". I guess that pretty much smashes that doctrine doesn't it?
217 - angel
Looks like everyone is still on this blog. I haven't been here for awhile , but the weather is stormy tonight here in Utah, and here I set reading blogs. It's nice to see that there are some of the same people still on this blog from last month. Jasmine, are you still there? You do sound like a very nice person to talk too.
I like black people very much. I once mentioned to Chris in a blog once a few weeks ago that I descended down through one of the signers of the declaration of independence. Our family owned plantations and there were many slaves which I have always detestested completely. I have a great love for the black people and for what they suffered so terribly from my ancestors. My family had a special black lady who crossed the plains on trek to Utah with the Mormons. She will never be forgotten. She was a wonderful person. She taught my ggg grandmother many things like survival after my ggg grandmother was disinherited for joining the Mormon church.
Chris, I have a diifficult time believing you are black. Are you still being a brat?
218 - Chris
You know what guys?
I don't know why I have bothered with this blog. This has got to be one of the most unrewarding experiences of my life. In fact I'm going to hang it up for good. If any body actually wants to see the the church documentation I spoke of then I chech back on the blog in a day or two and and post them with the annotations so you can't call me a liar.
And one more thing. All you people are so quick to call someone an anti-mormon. It's so easy for you. That is completely sick. Until I stumbled upon this blog I never thought much about Mormons. Believe me, I have PLENTY of other things more pressing to concern myself with than your little religion. If I am an anti-mormon than it has been your attitudes and hostility that more than anything have made me think this way, and that is really sad.
I wish that just for a moment you could see how the rest of the world perceives you. Believe me, there is a whole other world out there. We get up in the morning and go to work just like you do. There are almost 7 billion people on this Earth who are not Mormons. We are no going anywhere. You really need to think about the way you choose to interact with the rest of us and start to examine your own words and actions a bit more.
You are so hostile to anybody that challenges the Mormon belief system and call those that do challenge it anti-mormon's, but yet your entire religion is based upon the precept that all other faiths that call themselves "Christian" are wrong and apostolic. The very foundation of LDS beliefs is that we all are heathens!!!! Why then do you get angry when Catholics, Baptist, Methodist, or anybody else turns that same finger back on you?
I think the last time I ran into an LDS missionary was last year, and he and his companion explained to me that everything I believed was a lie. How can you actually dare to claim some kind of moral high ground and accuse me or anyone else who dares to criticize you of hate? The founding principles of religion IS AN ATTACK on my faith.
Well, I'd like to say its been fun but it hasn't. There is no reasoning with you people. I'll get out of here then and let you call someone else a hater or antimormon for daring to speak about those things you find so unthinkable. Thanks a bunch for helping me to become a "born again" anti-mormon. If you guys can do this just over a blog then you'll destroy yourselves in no time. I think the best thing someone called me on this site was a "mobber". LOL!!! I don't think I'll ever get over or stop laughing after that one.
PEACE
219 - Chris
Whats the matter Angel? Do you want to make sure I'm black before you call a nigger? Yes I am black, and I've had to put up with people like you all my life. What's the matter? Is my vocabulary just a little too good to come from a poe big lipped black man? Or maybe Its because I havn't spelled the word "who" H-O-O. Maybe it's because my father is a well known Biochemist and a member of Mensa and because I went to college without an atheletic scholarship? Choose your words a little more carefully.
220 - Michael D
Chris,
Oh my gosh. Google the following: Genesis, black, Mormon.
You will find there is a "Black Mormon Page". This guy is interesting:
Elijah Abel (1810-1882): adopted brother of Joseph
Smith and Mormon Seventy Apostle
221 - angel
Yep, you are Chris alright. I see that you are still very hostile with words used for everyone in this blog. Sorry, that life has been so terribly bad for you. However, it would be helpful to us all if You might try to give up the hateful remarks, and perhaps find something better to do with your education. You are the reason I left this blog once before. It looks likes things haven't changed much.
How does Michael D put up with you, I will never know. He is a nice guy just trying to express his views to you and you always come back with harsh, strong and cold words. I think you are one of the most antagonistic people I have ever come across. You oppose much of everything people say to you. It's too bad that you are black, because you act more like some very mean, bad, and hateful white people that I have known. Why don't you do good for your race instead of dishonoring them with so much hate.
I have never used the word (nigger) that you so freely use, so don't impose your ignorance onto me.
Sorry, to intrude into your nightmare. have a nice evening!!
222 - angel
Chris,
One more thing, the Mormon church will go on with or without people like you. So perhaps you need to go find some other religion to slander.
I'm happy that you have joined the born again whatevers! From what I can read here it hasn't done you much good.
Again, sorry to continally disturb your on going nightmare. Bye Bye now :((
223 - Chris
I'm real sorry for being black Angel. Believe it or not I was born that way. Do something for my "people"? There you go again. You just get it and you probably never will. I am a human being and an American. I am responsible for my own path in life and my actions do not reflect anybody but myself. "You people" kind of talk is about all "you people" seem to be capable of.
Have you noticed that I am the only person left on this blog to speak for the opposition? That's because everybody else has realized that nothing can get through to you. You and those like you on this blog have literally run off everybody who doesn't echo your views like a parrott. You seem to have completely abandoned reason.
You also keep using the word "hate" and pretty generally throw it around like some kind of malicious club. I wouldn't know about that. You see I have a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ and that doesn't leave much room for things like hate. I feel such a terrible sense of pity for you and those like you because you live in such a small world. This is my last comment on this blog as I will not return to it again. I'll leave you now so that you guys can keep ranting and pretending to be champions of truth and justice. All you've managed to do is alienate more people and create more of those you call "anti-mormons". Good work.
224 - angel
Chris,
I think you need to re-read the blog messages, and see where you are coming from. You can't expect everyone to see only your view of things. Everyone has a right to his or her beliefs. So let it be.
We are all Gods children (BLACK or WHITE) no matter what faith we belong to.
Black is a good race of people. However try doing good for your people by showing kindness towards others.
225 - Felix
Oooops!!! Looks like I stumbled into a blog full of angry hateful Mormons (as if there was any other kind). You guys are out of your minds.
Must be great to live life completely out of touch with reality. Enjoy Hell!!!! Oh, and don't wait up for me, I won't be going. I got the Bible and JC!!!