If my fellow Americans made themselves look a little foolish in this film, it was mostly on the side of being way too patient with the visitor.
Now 24 hours past seeing Borat: Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan on opening day, I'm sure that I'm going to write a glowing review of this movie. It is an outstanding and fascinating piece of art which is very funny, and works really well on several levels. Oh, it's gonna be a heck of a review.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Al Barger
Rodney, I'm not sure what the two ways are that I'm trying to have it here. One way is that I say that the Americans in the Borat movie mostly come of pretty good. What is the other way that I'm holding which contradicts that?
Now, I'm not saying that every American was completely blameless and above reproach. I never claimed that Americans just completely glow with the inner light of Jesus. To paraphrase Aunt Eller, I ain't saying that we're better than anybody else- but I'll be danged if we ain't just as good."
Still, good Americans can take a joke, and a laugh at our own foibles. Martin, I suggest that you need to lighten up. Still, I must agree that Sacha Baron Cohen certainly is a devious, tricky Jew.
27 - STM
What I can't understand about Borat's America is why most Americans caught unawares by Cohen couldn't work out within 40 seconds that the whole thing is a gee-up and a giggle.
This is a question you must ask of yourselves, America. (more handwringing in the home of the brave).
We await the answer with anticipation. (for more fun, have a look on You Tube or Google video for clips of Cohen's Ali G character (a London gangsta), the best being his interview with Buzz Aldrin (Buzz Lightyear) and former US surgeon-general C. Everett Koop. Neither had enough street smart to be in on the joke, which makes them an absolute hoot.
That champion of the loony left, Noam Chomsky, makes an absolute dill of himself as well. Listen for the line on language - cunni-lingual
28 - STM
Martin Lav said: "And let's face it Americans are one of the most beloved people the world over and it should be no surprise to any foreigners that we are very tolerant to a fault of other peoples freedoms."
????
29 - Al Barger
STM- Martin's certainly right to say that Americans are very tolerant of other people's freedoms. Some hatas who resent the US just for being powerful might be motivated to demonize US. But look how patient the Americans were with Borat, and how restrained, and how much they tried to accept him- not that he made it easy.
My guess is that some of these people did suspect a comedy routine - thus some of the laughter at the rodeo, for example. But if you're not quite sure, you don't want to be rude or look like an ass, do you?
I could well imagine that some of these folks were not sure just what his game was, but figured that their best part would be to just indulge the guy for a few minutes rather than freak out or make a scene, or start lecturing the guy about bigotry or such.
Again, what SHOULD these folks have done differently?
30 - STM
Al: Nothing mate, I'm just giving you all a gee-up. He winds everyone up, not just Americans ... it's all part of the gig.
If people just went along with it all the time, he'd lose half the stuff that makes it all so much fun.
Although having said that, some people who got sucked in by Cohen will be kicking themselves when they see it.
I saw a show once where he did some interviews as Borat at the Actors' Studio (New York?), and he also did a great interview as Al G with Victoria and David Beckham in London. He is, indeed, a very funny man.
31 - Al Barger
STM- Totally cool. Americans can take a joke- heck, look at our Congress. Borat's quite funny- but I'll take a dim view of those taking a haughty tone of judgment against the Americans in the film, such as, again, the Entertainment Weekly quote "the people Borat talks to become the symbolic heart of America - a place where intolerance is worn, increasingly, with pride." Pinko, please.
32 - STM
I think you'd find the same kind of so-called intolerance in Britain and Australia, the difference being we've had Cohen bombarding our ear'oles for many years now, so if he were to walk up to me in the street, I'd know exactly what to expect.
But when he started out in the UK as Ali G, he caught plenty of his own countrymen unawares, don't worry about that.
33 - Rodney Welch
The Entertainment Weekly comment is closer to the truth than your headline, though.
34 - theeskay
Dumb, stupid post. Your political and social views are obvious: you seek to excuse blatant xenophobia and racism and then say that the worst behaviour is a dignified leaving by the feminists? Laughable. A stupid post from a stupid person.
35 - Al Barger
theeskay- I admit to being a dumb Kentuckian. I'm pretty slow witted, so perhaps you can break it down for an ignorant cracker such as your humble narrator. What was the blatant xenophobia and racism? Other than that you could get a couple of drunk frat boys to whine a little bit about affirmative action, what was the shocking racism of America that the showed? Is this our worst? If those frat boys are the bottom of the American barrel, then we're doing pretty good.
Again, they were not intolerant, but welcomed the stranger, and were very nice to him. His betrayal of their trust is FAR worse than any passing largely meaningless verbal grumbling the boys did, minor squabbles on the playground. Note that they weren't mean to anyone, nor did they express any intention or desire of meanness. Some petty resentments, but that's all in the family.
Tell me where I'm wrong- but talk real slow, and don't use any big words.
36 - americana
Al Barger, why are you anti-semitic?
You seem to enjoy refrencing Cohen as "that clever Jew", etc.
What's the deal?
37 - S.T.M
Americana .... Cohen is a jew who makes jokes about jews. There is no anti-semitism, although I do think you need to be in on the joke before commenting.
Have you seen the film or viewed any interviews done by Cohen's other alter-egos?
38 - Al Barger
Oh Americana, you can give the anti-Semitism stuff a big ol' rest. Cohen isn't just kinda Jewish, but making a HUGE thing of seeing (or putting) charges of anti-Semitism up everywhere. It gets kinda wrapped around by a comedy routine, but Cohen is implicitly an angry Jew protesting anti-Semitism, like, a LOT with Borat. I can appreciate a lot of that, but he don't need to be carrying on about throwing the Jew down the well without expecting to hear a little of it echoed back, does he?
I did finally see the video of the Tucson appearance singing "Throw the Jew Down the Well." The visuals more than confirmed my thoughts that the audience was hip, and latched on quickly that it was a comedy routine, what with the girl in the audience putting up her fingers for the devil horns and such. These people clearly got the joke. Anyone wants to make anti-Semitism out of that needs to calm themselves down.
There's certainly a world of wicked anti-Semitism to be pissy about, but it ain't in red state America. People like those evangelicals Cohen was mocking or that gun shop owner would likely be among the top pro-Israeli folk in the world.
39 - Martin Lav
This whole thing reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where Jerry's dentist converted to Judaism, so he could tell Jewish jokes without being considered an anti-semite. Of course this episode was also written by a Jew.
40 - cster
"When he enters the genuinely dangerous Atlanta Ghetto he suddenly puts on the kid gloves and plays the buffoon. His elitism is curiously absent because he knows he could seriously get his ass kicked. Besides, no one wants to feel guilty about laughing at young black people (they might get angry) so he makes Borat the object of laughter at this point"
This was not because he was afraid of getting his ass kicked, this was his "subtle reference" to Ali G in the movie. Remember, at the end of the film, he remembers the good times( and a scene with the guys in the ghetto is played again) - so that was the scene in which he got himself to be the object of the joke, to show Ali G's "restecp" for the ghetto life.
41 - Kyle
I think Borat is a brilliant satire on Western Societies indifference to obviously racist and sexist remarks. After all, the path to the holocaust was not a result of Germans wholehearted endorsement of anti-Semitism, but rather their indifference to it. I thought the feminists handled Borat the best. They told him their opinions, but he continued making sexist remarks, so they walked out. The worst of the participates in the movie was the gun store owner, who after being asked what is the best gun to shot the Jew, recommended the 9mm. His reaction shows an absolute indifference to anti-Semitic remarks that I find sickening.
42 - Kyle
Further, the episode where Borat sang "in my country there is problem" is a perfect example of indifference to racism. One would have a hard time proving that the people at the bar who were singing along with the Anti-Semitic lyrics are Anti-Semitic. But it is clear they do not care if others are pushing anti-Semitism. Indifference to racism and sexism is just one of many negative aspect of society Borat exposes. Borat shows us how completely uninformed we are about foreign cultures. So much so that the people in the film are willing to justify/ believe such absurd things as; pubes as currency, drinking fermented horse urine and bringing feces to the diner table, as cultural.
43 - Rodney Welch
"The visuals more than confirmed my thoughts that the audience was hip, and latched on quickly that it was a comedy routine ... These people clearly got the joke. Anyone wants to make anti-Semitism out of that needs to calm themselves down."
That's what I've always said about the Nuremburg rally -- as well as those good old boys who got a little carried away with that practical joke they played on Matthew Shepherd, and those people who took James Byrd Jr. out for a joyride in Jasper, Texas. Really, people need to lighten up. Fuck `em if they can't take a joke.
44 - Mark
Al,
I am sorry mate, but some Americans definitely look bigotted in this film.
The attitude of the old bloke at the rodeo was nothing less than deplorable... he tells Borat to try and look "less like a Muslim" - for goodness sake man, that's disgraceful.
The frat boys look like completely ignorant fools. They talk about women as sex slaves for frig sake.
The evangelicals are shown up for what they really are, Christian fundamentalists, every bit as brainwashed as there Muslim equivalent. These religious fanatics are nothing short of freaks.
On top of this the car salesman talking about the speed you would need to drive the hummer at to kill gypsies does nothing to impress.
How can you say this behaviour is "acceptable"??
45 - Al Barger
Mr Welch, you're being both self-righteous and palpably dishonest. Yeah, those people in the Arizona bar singing along with Borat are JUST LIKE people attending Nazi rallies or murdering Matthew Shepherd. I'm sure you can't see any signficant difference, like that one is a dude drinking a beer and laughing at a comedian and the other is a murderer.
I assume that you consider Baron Cohen a rabid anti-Semite as well for actually singing "Throw the Jew Down the Well." Or is it ok for him to sing it because he means it ironically, but it's NOT ok for other people to be in on the joke? What those people in the bar SHOULD have done would have been to have a collective fit of indignation and walk out like the feminists at the start of the move.
Mark, you're a little more reasonable in tone, but you're still all wet. The frat boys talked a little trash, but so what? Should the whole US of A feel indicted cause this comedian got a couple of frat boys drunk and goaded them into talking some trash? They actually seemed like pretty good fellows. I'd find it highly unlikely that they would be much mean to people. They were just venting, not seriously wishing people harm.
They look kinda foolish now, which they brought on themselves. But are the typical 20 year old men of other countries really superior, though?
And the rodeo guy was ok. I didn't see anything particularly "deplorable" in his comments, not that I necessarily agree. It may be unfortunate that the guy is suspicious of Muslims, but I see no "disgrace" in the perfectly natural tendency to be skeptical of the community that is producing people intent on KILLING US.
Perhaps you think that everyone should be a complete angel, setting aside all normal mammalian biology and all critical capacities that might lead one to attitudes not 100% in keeping with your concept of total perfect enlightened acceptance and harmony. I'm sure other countries are way ahead of US in achieving perfect racial harmony and justice.
Then there's the real world, and even an old cowboy with a good heart might still understandably feel a little suspicion and resentment towards cultural groups that sure seem to be murderously hostile to his country.
Mark, your attack on the American evangelicals is absolutely nothing but bigotry. You're real anxious to preach about the disgraceful American expressing a bit of suspicion towards the community that is trying to kill US, but your multicultural love and acceptance doesn't apply to Red State Americans, apparently.
The evangelicals were practicing their religion, not trying to get involved in politics, not being hateful to anyone- following their own path in totally peaceful praise and worship. There's no legitimate reason based on anything in the movie to fault those Christians.
Really, about 90% of the criticisms of the Americans in the film is that Borat said a bunch of offensive stuff, and the Americans didn't all 100% jump up in his face with proper righteous denuncaitons. Be mad at Cohen for saying bad things, but it's just dumb to be mad at other people just for hearing bad things.
46 - Mark
Al my friend,
You say 'I see no "disgrace" in the perfectly natural tendency to be skeptical of the community that is producing people intent on KILLING US'. Mate, I am Australian and we have also been the victim of several terrorist attacks in recent times but I am sorry, YES this is a DISGRACEFUL attitude.
This mistrust of outsiders gets in the way of communities understanding one another and is the pure definition of racism. Just because one extreme sect of a community has violent tendancies does not mean that this is a generally held view within that community.
If you think that other countries have not made better progress on racial attitudes then you really need to get out of the US. Granted there are probably less tolerant countries, but trust me there are a lot of countries with more progressive attitudes. George Bush would never have become leader of my nation with his attitudes.
As for the evangelicals, at one point this dilluded man goes on and on about not evolving from monkeys and so on. It is exactly this close minded view that is stopping the free teaching of evolution to children in some of the states in the US. I have a Christian background, but those evangelicals are just simply extremists.
The attitude displayed by the rodeo guy and the extrimism of the evangalicals has in no small way contributed to George Bush's "holy war" in IRAQ. Several thousand muslim civilians are dying every day, thats one 9/11 per day. How do you think these Muslim people feel about Christians?
One last thing, you ask in reference to the students "But are the typical 20 year old men of other countries really superior, though?". I went to university and never had a conversation (drunken or otherwise) with anyone proposing that women should be sex slaves. So I guess I would have to say "yes" to that question.
Just for the record, I am not mad at anyone, just an observer. How you can defend these people's actions is beyond me.
47 - Al Barger
Mark, I appreciate your friendly goodwill, but I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with you most particularly on this statement: "This mistrust of outsiders gets in the way of communities understanding one another and is the pure definition of racism."
For starters, Rodeo Guy (I think the gentleman's name is Bobby Rowe) was not displaying a generalized mistrust of outsiders. He was certainly friendly to the weirdo foreign guy Borat. Plus, he was not expressing a broad mistrust of Others, but some general suspicion of Muslims- what with that corner of the whole world bearing most of the crazed murderous hate against us in the world. Similarly, it's not like Israelis don't understand Palestinians. It's because they understand them all too well at this point that they would be mistrustful.
You can simply label that "racism," and therefore consider it bad and wrong- but you would be inappropriate to do so. Pretty much anyone in the free world has good reason to take a dim view of the Muslim community. RG's skepticism did not appear to be determined blind hatred of Muslims, but a halfway reasonable and healthy suspicion of a community that has proven itself highly malicious and dangerous.
It's unfortunate that sometimes the actions of the lesser elements of the community unfairly tar those not associated- but that's not RG's fault.
If it's bad that an American takes a suspicious view of Muslims, perhaps you should be busting on the Muslims to reign in their own people so that folks like RG don't have good rational reasons to take a dim view of that community.
I don't know the guy, obviously, so I'm just projecting here. But from what I can tell of him from the movie, the fellow seems friendly and reasonable. He's not particularly hateful, nor determined to be full of resentment. He might be generally skeptical of Muslims, but I bet he'd give any particular person a fair shake.
Now, you can stretch the word "racism" to make it apply to RG, but that would not be a true and meaningful use of the term. He does not appear to be determined to have a negative view of all Muslims, but a generalized suspicion which would likely be readily subject to revision based on experience. In other words, if some Muslims of goodwill moved in down the block, they could probably approach him and make friends. I suspect that this guy would readily substitute personal experience in the place of a general opinion about the group. That's all you can reasonably ask.
Finally, I'll just say you're completely off base in criticizing the evangelicals in the movie. You can reasonably criticize them on the one basic point of believing in their faith over science perhaps- but that's a general criticism of pretty much EVERY religion.
The charge of "extremism" however, is utterly unfounded- at least based on anything in the movie. "Extremism" would be if on learning that they had been duped by a comedian, they called a fatwa to have the guy killed- which is what he would likely have gotten for pranking Muslims like that.
What was "extremist" about these Christians? All it appears to mean in this context is simply that they really believe their Jesus story, as opposed to a lot of perhaps more couth, polite Episcopalians or such that don't really seem to believe it in their hearts.
I would judge religious extremists by their actions. To paraphrase Forest Gump's Mama, religious fanatics are as religious fanatics do. Thus, I'd define religious extremism based on anti-social behavior. If your church declares a death sentence against non-believers, then they are religious extremists. If your church likes to get together and talk in tongues amongst themselves and roll around the aisles, that's totally cool.
On what grounds would you consider the evangelicals in Borat "extremists"?
48 - STM
"If your church likes to get together and talk in tongues amongst themselves and roll around the aisles, that's totally cool."
As long as they're not using mood-altering chemicals to get them there ... then the FBI or the ATF might not think so.
But honestly Al, I do think a lot of people are missing the point here: Borat, like the rest of Baron Cohen's alter-egos, is simply a theatrical device.
Nothing more, nothing less. There is WAY too much hand-wringing going on here.
49 - Mark
On what grounds would you consider the evangelicals in Borat "extremists"?
Point taken, perhaps you are correct, the word fundamentalist is probably more appropriate for the Evangelicals in the film. Having said that, such fundamental teaching is still not healthy. Fundamentalism leads to extremism because of its restriction of free thinking and information - eg Waco incident.
The term extremist would probably apply more to groups such as the KKK which uses a perversion of Christianity to justify its message. If all Americans are right to be suspcious of Muslims because of an extremist minority, then presumably you could apply the same logic to say we should all be suspicious of Christians because the KKK? or have you some reason why this only applies to Muslims?
Timothy McVeigh is white - so should all anglosaxons be encouraged to look less like a white person so that people will not look suspicious? If not, why not?
50 - Al Barger
"have you some reason why this only applies to Muslims?" Why yes- yes, I do have a reason why this generalized suspicion would reasonably apply to Muslims, but not American Christians. Several, actually.
For starters, the KKK is dead. There are very few of them, and they certainly have no influence. The KKK is not flying planes into buildings, nor are they fomenting violence against blacks any time recently. More importantly, they are not supported by any part of the American religious community to speak of. Tim McVeigh was just one incident with one or two dumbasses, not any kind of movement with a national much less international network, or state sponsors. He was never in line to get WMDs.
Whereas, rage and hatred against others is a HUGE influence in the Muslim community. Only a few are actually terrorists, but a lot more than a few are supportive of such things in various ways. Think of the Dutch cartoon riots, and all the killings just a year or two ago over a simple beauty pageant. What kind of pathologies are at work right now in Turkey, for example, where Islamic fools are ready to destroy the whole frickin' country because Pope Benedict is visiting? Christians just aren't doing that kind of stuff.
I don't necessarily 100% mean that against the entire religion forever and all time. Christians haven't always been so nice historically, but seem to have become house trained enough in the last couple of centuries to be halfway fit for civilized company. I don't even claim to understand Islam nearly enough to make much judgment. However, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and at this point the fruit of Islam is poisonous.
51 - Mark
Al,
Your assertion that "Whereas, rage and hatred against others is a HUGE influence in the Muslim community. Only a few are actually terrorists, but a lot more than a few are supportive of such things in various ways." is just simply wrong.
Last month I was in the bridal party for a Catholic friend of mine who was marrying a Turkish Muslim girl. I have many muslim friends and not one of them hates America. I think the biggest problem is that as close as a lot of American's get to an Islamic person is by watching FOX news, which is the biggest dumbed down news organisation in the world.
If we are specifically talking about the dislike of Americans by Muslims in the Middle East region this is not primarily driven by religion. Remember that it is less than 50 years since Israel was ethnically cleansed of all Muslims. During this process one million Palestinians were removed from Israel just because of their religion. The western world's support for Israel (including turning a blind eye to the recent bombing of civilian targets in Southern Lebanon) is behind this most of the hatred disseminating from that region. It is not religion but our actions which is at the root of much of the hatred displayed in the Middle East.
Ask yourself how your might feel towards the Jude/Christian world if you father or Grandfather was forcibly removed from their idylic life and force to live in ghettos surrounded by barbed wire.
On top of this the Coalition of the Willing decides to create a complete disaster area in IRAQ and now that things are getting tough all the talk is about abandoning them. What will the result be of the abandonment - a heck of a lot more terrorists.
So to think/assume/feel that the Muslim religion promotes violence and hatred is just simply incorrect. To think this is just simply racist stereotyping.
Regarding the Pope's visit to Turkey: Turkey is a country of 70 million people... and all fox news wants to show you is a protest by a few thousand freaks who do not like the pope??? Mate, you really need to take a broader view on these issues. It was Pope Benedict that a couple of months before this visit proclaimed in a speech at Regensburg University "show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached". This is what the islamic people in Turkey are upset about my friend.... and how would you feel if you were Islamic?
Here are a few articles you might like to read on the Pope's visit which will give you a different perspective to the rubbish you see on CNN/FOX. expatica.com
speroforum.com
Turkish Daily News
52 - Al Barger
Mark- Your outlook on Israelis and Palestinians appears to be significantly factually incorrect, and seems to be based on willful contortion and semantics rather than reality. You use words like "apartheid" for example, which is just ridiculous and inappropriate.
Your explanation of the exodus of Palestinians does not jibe with my perhaps faulty understanding of history. As I understand it, the Jews did NOT drive the Palestinians from the newly re-created Israel at gunpoint, as you suggest. Rather, they voluntarily packed up and stepped aside, expecting their Arab brethren to step in and wipe out the Israelis for them.
It was appropriate and indeed necessary to the survival of Israel not to let them back in. This isn't a matter of wanting to "ethnically cleanse" Israel, but just not wanting to be massacred by Palestinians- which they would certainly do if they had the wherewithal.
Best I can tell, this didn't happen: "Ask yourself how your might feel towards the Jude/Christian world if you father or Grandfather was forcibly removed from their idylic life and force to live in ghettos surrounded by barbed wire." First, there ain't been any idyllic lives in that region pretty much ever. Besides that, I don't recall seeing contemporary photos of Jews with guns to Palestinians backs, nor were they massacring Palestinians. Nor are the Israelis forcing them to live anywhere in particular. They CHOOSE, generation after generation now, to live in those ugly ghettos.
I am certainly NOT factually wrong to say that there are a lot of Muslims hostile to the US and non-Muslims in general. 9-11 comes to mind. The new plots on our soil being busted every couple of months are evidence of that. How many examples of absolute terrorism perpetrated and many more thwarted here and in Europe do I need to see a pattern?
Your reported personal experience might be a little re-assuring, though it sounds a bit fishy to me. On the other hand, many Muslims are good law-abiding American citizens. Some sects are more rabid, others much gentler and nicer. There are differences within communities and individuals in those communities. Sounds like you've found you some friendly ones to run with. I'm glad to hear that there are some.
Finally, I can't help but think that your quote of Pope Benedict was, frankly, dishonest. You surely must know that those were NOT the pope's words, but a clearly attributed quote of ancient text with which the pope was taking issue.
Goddamit, the behavior of the Muslim community in recent years is intolerable. If the first point of negotiations when the pope says something you don't like is to go killing and rioting, that's no good. We can't work with that. And if your response to murder and mayhem is to even partway blame the pope over a scholarly speech, then I don't know where to even start to try to reason with you.
53 - Mark
Al, at this point I am not entirely sure that are you for real, but I will continue anyway.
In regards to Israel's history you are either joking or truly uneducated.
Many Palestinian citizens were in fact murdered by Israeli and other Allied solders when they refused to leave their homes during this phase of the creation of the Jewish nation of Israel. But it sounds like you do not really want to listen to reality.
Read and learn about the eviction of the Palestinians from Israel: You have accused me of lying about a quote made by the pope which was front page news on virtually every newspaper in the world? This would seem to make you either quite funny or perhaps a bit foolish.
Also not sure where I used the word "Apartheid", but thanks for putting words in my mouth.
You also find it "fishy" that I have muslim friends? Please explain why?
There are One Billion or so Muslims in the world - of course a few of them are fruitcakes, just like with any other part of society. The unfortunate thing is that its people with ignorant attitudes that make the Western World so much easier to hate.
54 - Al Barger
First off, my bad. The word "apartheid" did not come from you. Thinking back, just before I wrote that, I was watching an interview with Jimmy Carter who has a book called Palestine Peace Not Apartheid.
No, I would not consider it suspicious for you to have Muslim friends, but without making any imputations my first instinct is to think that it would seem unlikely to have numerous Muslim friends and NONE of them have ill temper toward US. That just seems really convenient towards supporting the fairly strong left wing views that you want to support.
But then, what do I know? That might be exactly your experience, and that's why you think as you do.
That very careful editing to put across those words the pope was QUOTING as if they were his own strikes me as dishonest. Do you honestly not get this point?
And no, it's not just a few fruitcakes like in any society. Fruicakes from Ireland are not trying to get WMDs. There are not networks of tens or hundreds of thousands of Buddhists working night and day to kill US.
Mark, have you ever heard Fiona Apple's modern classic "Window"?
55 - Sean
Wow, I'm speechless. If you think Americans behaved admirably in this movie, you seriously need a gut check. From the man who wanted to kill homosexuals to the confederate flag selling bigots, America was exposed in this film...After reading a couple of your posts I realize that you are out of touch with reality. I am embarrassed to post on this discussion board.
56 - STM
Baron Cohen does this everywhere, including in his own country. It is not just about Americans. You find people like this everywhere. And Baron Cohen has a knack for getting under their guard.
Get over it guys, Borat is just a theatrical device for Baron Chohen's particular brand of comedy - which is to take the piss out of everyone.
Really, who gives a bugger how Americans came out in this movie? It's just a piss take.
Stop all the hand-wringing for f.ck's sake. You are heading towards analysis paralysis.
Just enjoy the fun ... and learn to laugh at yourselves.
57 - Al Barger
STM, I think I'm capable of taking a joke. Moreover, Cohen obviously does intend this to have some kind of social commentary- but what, exactly- and how much does the behavior of the Americans fit with the critiques that seem to have been intended or taken by some viewers?
This ain't ringing hands. As my hero Cedric the Entertainer would say, this ain't nothin' but healthy discussion.
58 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Mark,
Your knowledge of what has and hasn't gone on in this country is pathetically marred by the Arab agitprop you read.
For a few facts.
There are a whole passel of Arab neighborhoods in Jerusalem. Beit Hanina, Jebel Mukabr, Abu Tur and Tsur Bakhr come to mind immediately. Arabs are found working in all parts of the city. They ride the city buses with everyone else, and assuming that they pay the fare, no driver ever seeks to keep them off the bus - except when he fears that one of them is carrying a bomb-belt.
But because Arabs have chosen to wear bomb-belts along with their cell-phones, we pay a price. Thousands of army vets work as public security on the buses, giving everybody who boards the fish eye. In addition, there is a network of Arab buses that serve their communities. Rarely will a Jew board such a bus, but once my wife, lost in the French Hill district of town, did, so that she could get to her job.
These Arab neighborhoods are in Jerusalem because this country was threatened by war in 1967 by its neighbors, Egypt, Syria and Jordan. We conquered and reunited our capital after asking the king of Jordan not to engage in hostilities agaist us. He refused the request and paid the consequences.
Many Arabs fled this land upon the advice of their own military commanders in 1948-49, being promised that they would return in a matter of weeks after the Jews were swept into the sea. The Arabs' brooms didn't work so well, and those who fled from their homes paid thrice. First, they were turned into refugees, second they were stuck in camps and discriminated against there because their Arab brothers would not absorb them into Arab society. Thirdly, a dictatorship was erected over them in the former Jordanian provinces of Bethlehem, Jerusalem and Nablus, and in Gaza which has robbed them left and right, raped their young women left and right, and propagandized their children into becoming suicide bombers. This dictatorship is known as the 'Palestinian Authority."
Let's not hear any trash from you about ethnic cleansing or genocide. If you think that this is what has happened to the Arabs of who came here to find work in the early 1900's, you obviously do not know the meaning of either.
Finally, just so it is clear in your head. I know quite a number of Arabs personally. So I'm not talking about empty theories, like too many who write about this part of the world do.
59 - S.T.M
Al: Sorry, I wasn't referring to you old boy ... a few others. I have the read the piece and realise that you get the joke.
Too many others don't though mate .... including some you've been arguing with.
Perhaps I need to change the way I write for Americans. I'll quote Winston again: one people separated by the barrier of a common language.
60 - Al Barger
Ruvy- I'm always grateful to have your input, and particularly your local and historical knowledge.
STM- Thanks for the clarification. I'm always happy to be the object of humor. Team America can take a joke. Our goofy drunken frat boys talking some trash is pretty funny. They're probably basically real nice fellows, but they volunteered to look foolish here.
Now, if they're the good Americans that I'd still like to think they are, they'll accept responsibility for the egg on their own faces and learn from the experience rather than staying mad and nursing feelings of supposed victimhood. Granted, the lawsuit doesn't re-assure me on that count.
However Sean (comment 55), I don't particularly appreciate your hateful bigotry toward the owners of the antique shop. You have no legitimate grounds for calling them any kind of bad name based on anything in the movie. YOU might not appreciate Confederate culture or antiques, but you're simply bigoted and prejudiced and don't know what you're talking about when you jump to such conclusions.
61 - Mark
STM,
Agree that this movie is not a social commentary on the US, what I did find hard to take was Al's defence of specific behaviours in the movie.
Al,
You question my sources but when an Israeli person (presumably of Jewish descent) gives you an opinion you do not take it with a grain of salt???
Here is a link detailing the demographic of Sydney, the city in which I live.
About 1 in 30 of us are Muslim and I come from a suburb there which has greater cultural diversity than average. Out of about 40 friends or so good friends I have 3 good muslim friends.
Ruvy,
You are a product of the Israeli propaganda machine my friend. Here is an interesting article for you to read.
arabnews.com
62 - S.T.M
Mark: I bet you live in south-western Sydney ... and go for the Doggies.
63 - STM
The use of the term "my friend" is a dead giveaway ... it's a very middle-eastern form of address. Yes, in the Bankstown-to-Liverpool area there is great cultural diversity, but the truth is, only a tiny percentage of the Australian population is muslim. More than 90 per cent of the Australian population is still of anglo/celtic or european decent.
But none of it changes what this is all about.
It also saddens me that people come to this country, where they are given a genuine second chance at a great life in a democracy that allows them by law to express their old hatreds, and they then decide to do so.
And therein lies the problem. It would be nice if that stuff could be left at the doorstep.
64 - Mark
S.T.M,
FYI: I happen live in the inner west (Five Dock) and support St George. I am not Muslim and consider the term "My Friend" pretty bloody standard.
Your use of the term "old boy" makes you sound like an Eastern Suburns/North Sure fossil, but who's keeping score?? :)
65 - S.T.M
I never thought you were a muslim (not that I'm bothered by that anyway). But I would guarantee, by some of the stuff you are throwing up on the posts, that you're of middle-eastern background. I thought maronite, with a name like Mark. At least you go for a decent bloody footy team. You picked it too, mate ... I'm a north shore boy, but not all rah-rah as I played RL at Norths. So I don't even have a team to support any more as I refuse to have anything to do with those arseholes at Manly.
That was Norths' problem ... when you lie down with dogs, you get fleas. Now, back to the real issue: get the love flowing old boy and let's all try to get along. Ruvy's a good fella, as I'm sure you are.
66 - Mark
STM,
The term "My Friend" is also commonly used by people of Greek and Italian descent. I am Anglo but grew up in the suburb of Earlwood which had a majority Greek (background)population and still has a large Greek population today.
Perhaps this explains why I use that phrase?
I agree with you in regards to there being some issues with various ethnic groups bringing their "hatreds" (as you call it) with them.
This does tend to only be a generational thing though. When I was young all the kids of Greek descent used to say that "Aussies Sucked" and so forth and if I am honest for the first 20 years of my life I really resented Greeks (although a lot of my mates were Greek - not sure how that works).
But then as the next generation grows up and questions their parent's (sometimes small-minded)teaching they turn around and realise that this country is their home. Most of the current Muslim population is 1st or "early 2nd" Generation at the moment, but in 20-30 years they will most likely be integrated into our society as well as Greeks and Italians are these days.
PS: Go you Dragons!!!
PPS: The comment about the Doggies was pretty funny - a lot of my mates go for them and they do really suck :)
67 - S.T.M
Yes, Earlwood IS Greek. Good stuff too. Believe it or not, I have grown up with heaps of people of Italian and Greek background, as I lived on the lower north shore, not the upper. I always liked Greeks because they always seemed a bit wild (but not dangerous).
I have to go and do some work, Mark. All good.
68 - 313
Borat at the rodeo quote: "I support your war OF terror."
69 - Sese
I thought the purpose of the dinner table where he presented his poop in a bag was to show that American are TOO tolerance where they dont need to.
Too afraid to just be plain human and be rude about something that SHOULD be rude about.
I thought those people are too pretentious. They think they are above anger and basic human reaction. I really dont factor in that they are polite.
They are so fake and inhuman cause they think they are above everyone else.
70 - Al Barger
For crying in a bucket there Sese, the Americans can't win for losing, can they? If that preacher had slapped Borat upside the head for disrespecting his wife, he'd have been an asshole. That they bent over backwards to be polite, well that just means that they were jerks cause they think they're nice.
71 - heh just me
THE booing of the Kazakh's National Anthem was added in post production (I think I saw it referenced also), if you pay attention you can SEE PEOPLE LAUGHING in the out of focus foreground... that said I have to assume the so called thunderous applause was added in post also...
You clearly see peoples solemness and demeanor go from cheering at the very beginning harmless general remarks to quiet stillness and realizing they were being messed with towards the thirsting for childrens blood stuff...
Also don't say I don't get the movie, I do and it was entertaining and I get what its trying to be, I even tried watching the dvd in some of the other languages and lol'd at the "jew alert" for hebrew language which I actually was looking forward too but it was a neat gag ;)
this post was in retrospect of these posts below:
---------------------------------------------------
"Ty, I'll have to see it again to gauge the reactions at the rodeo, but I suspect that you're seeing what you wanted to see rather than what was on the screen. It took a few seconds for parts of the crowd to catch on, but by the time he got to killing the lizards, there was pretty nearly zero applause.
He might have gotten some applause in the middle to marginally bad stuff before people caught on, but they simply were not trying to cheer a bunch of bloodthirsty stuff. Clearly, audience reaction shifted rapidly as they picked up on where he was going."
someones response-Funny you say that, because I think YOU are seeing what you wanted to see rather than what was on the screen.-
72 - quercus
Manipulating and deceiving people so that you can ridicule them on film is a completely unfunny concept to me, or at least in this case it was. I ejected the DVD at the end of the rodeo scene. I'm surprised however to find apologists on this site for the rodeo guy who expresses enthusiastic support for executing gays. Those words came very willingly out of his own mouth. And plenty of folks at that rodeo cheered for a series of horrific curses against the entire populace of Iraq. This is not an uncommon attitude in this country -- as a woman waiting in line at an airport security check said to me the other day, "why don't we just bomb all of them and then we can live normally again?". I don't like the way in which "Borat" exposes American bigotry and jingoism, but what it's exposing is very real.
73 - Kristina
I agree with everything you wrote! Everyone in here that has contradicting opinions of what you are saying are just bashing you really for no reason, just because they don't like your opinion I'm not sure how that gives them the right to call you an 'anti-intellectual'. Ironic perhaps, considering any intellectual would be able to grasp and understand both sides of the story and both points of view, as you stated in the end that perhaps you are just some 'right-wing nut job', lol. In my opinion what you said was dead on, I'm currently writing a paper on Borat for an English essay, my teacher's opinion matches some of the other's in this forum - and I was debating on weather I should contradict what I know she wants our thesis to be, but your paper has inspired me to go with my gut feeling.
74 - Al Barger
Kristina- I hope my arguments are of some use to you in making your point. If your teacher is any kind of cool, she'll appreciate you thinking critically for yourself.
You might want to ask this teacher or others who would take the view that Borat's Americans looked bad what response exactly should, say, the gun shop owner have made.
75 - Maahtha
I know you will likely delete this due to its duration but I appreciate this opportunity to express my uneasiness with the hysteria of self righteousness surrounding this film, from Cohen too....
I realize I am a bit late having having seen the movie a year after its release, but I have to say that the idea that this movie warrants the label of social commentary of any sort- but on the prejudices of america? Hilarious...and creepy.
Not to mention that people say that and then cite 2 or 3 obvious instances while leaving the other 20 non-offensive ones out. This is quite desperate, no?
If a hasidic jew came in to that same gun store acting like a clown and with a film crew saying he wants to defend himself against the aryans or the kkk, the guy would have showed him a gun. Case closed.
One prejudice not yet mentioned is that there are a lot of people who go completely irrational when they hear a southern accent, or see words like 'Texas,' and 'Alabama.' Case reopened: Who is the bigot when one assumes that the gun store owner didn't 'get it' just as the viewer of the movie 'got it?' Even gun dealers can catch subtle humor ya know?
There was obvious cheap editing in the 'southern gentry' piece. She is drippingly polite at the table and then is immediately at the door angry as hell and a guy is saying he called the police. If Luenell (love her) showed up white but in that same outfit the reaction would have been no different. Why so desperate people?
If you think that the car salesmen wasn't returning the same humor that 'Borat' was then that is your prejudice. To me it was obvious, just as the gun store owner was. As far as the rodeo guy, I mean, it's a rodeo and his unforgivable comments could be also be heard at dogfights, bullfights, cockfights, also from people in any country in this world. This was not 'american' behavior.
Everyone keeps talking about how cool the young black guys were, and I agree, they were wonderful, but by the same standards that people are quick to criticize the others filmed, the first thing these guys said was "Man, you gotta speak english around here." They all said it and were quite adamant. I took no offense just as I didn't with 90% of the people shown. But white people with southern accents don't frighten me because I don't succumb to superstition as easy as most.
I appreciate the initial review in that there is indifference to the blatant misogyny and that they consider the feminists the worst offenders. Actually, I thought it was great when they got up and left. That's just tactical saying women are rude or whatever if they don't stick around and listen to the same lines over and over for 50 years. He made a point to say cliche lines, which I thought was funny simply because he was making fun of these kinds of guys and I don't want to sound like an a$$ but by calling them rude is one of those cliche lines.
The reason that I appreciate the author's view, including the omission that the frat boy said he wanted women to be slaves, is because at least there is no hypocrisy. All of these people coming out and suddenly caring about women being degraded simply because it happens with a southern accent makes me sick. C'mon, you know you don't care.
And since when did the word 'minorities' become a racial slur? Did these boys seem threatened? Well look at the irrational response to this film and that many times they are referred to as racist yet they said nothing racist. And when that guy was about to say something about the jews, hmm, considered what the other guy was saying, I wonder if it would have been about how jews can say and do anything to someone but no one can return it, or that the jewish ADL officially says that there is a very high chance someone is or will become anti-semitic if they say things like the economy is bad and that they are not making enough money or if they believe people have the right to take up arms against government infringement on their freedom. Really, the ADL says that. They also say you might be anti-semitic if you believe a small group of businessmen and politicians really run this country. I wonder why Cohen didn't let him 'hang himself' on this one. It's odd that he interrupted him here and just left the word 'jews' hanging. I think because Cohen is intelligent enough to know that the conversation wasn't really about hating jews but that this guy was about to actually explain his thoughts on something all too clearly.
Sacha traveled the deep south with a thick black mustache and a thick accent and was embraced and helped along whenever he asked. It was horrible what he did in that man's antique store, who by the way, also had Southern Cherokee Confederation paraphanelia too, not so simple? Ahh, just don't think about it then.
Although I can't agree with everything about the review I have to say that the real dark underbelly is the desperate response by so many to feel better about themselves at the expense of all of the good-hearted people in this film, New Yorkers, Frat Boys, and Rodeo Crowd not included, but everyone else is...remember them? Watch it again.