Why would a black or any other hue of personhood want to watch this crappy bland show in the first place?
Blessedly, a final season of Friends. Alright, go already. Be gone. And take your syndicated re-runs with you. What do I have to do to get rid of you? I'm just about ready to put on a Captain Beefheart CD.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Steve Rhodes
None of you were there when it happened. You can't tell her what she experienced.
Yes, there were assholes when I was growing up in Indianapolis, but I could tell the anti-semitic assholes.
Indiana was run by the Klan for a while and there were still kids I went to school with who went to Klan paramilitary summer camp and a computer store in Carmel with the Protocols of the Zions of Elder on display near the cash register (needless to say, I didn't buy my Atari 800 there).
27 - Mac Diva
I will address a bigot disrespectfully whenever I want to Al. Ditto for Andy's fellow bigot Joe. The whole rap that:
1) Black people cause racism by mentioning it,
2) Only people of color commit crimes,
3) Only white people are victims of crimes,
that Andy posted is explicitly racist. It all assumes white supremacy, as does the attitude that you or any other white person can tell me what to think or say and I have to comply. There are far too many people with that attitude in the blogosphere and I will continue to stand up to them.
The ignorance of some of the people here amazes me.
28 - Al Barger
Mac Diva, no amount of indignance you muster will change the fact that your argument lacks any hint of a rational foundation.
Those points 1, 2, and 3 you cite don't look like anything that Andy wrote. What, for example, was the textual basis in Andy's writing for your claim that he says "Only people of color commit crimes."? You just insisted on putting stuff in that ain't there.
And Joe [comment #23] didn't do a thing but directly turn your own words back at you. If you don't like having those words pointed at you, then you shouldn't point them at others.
29 - Mac Diva
Al, obviously, you haven't read Andy's rant or you would know I responded to it point-by-point. As for Joe, he can always be counted on to support bigotry. He seems to come here for that purpose. He seeks out the threads dealing with race and eggs on anyone expressing a bigoted viewpoint.
However, I have decided to do something different. From now on, I am not going to respond to the almost criminally biased and ignorant people who post here. So, I will have nothing further to say to those two.
Sad to say their attitude is reflected to an extent throughout the Right blogosphere (and among some liberal hypocrites). When I looked at Right Wing News' surveys of history, you guys true colors were revealed. Most of those who responded were overtly hostile to civil rights reforms. If it were up to y'all, slavery would probably still exist.
30 - Al Barger
Ms Diva, you're just getting hysterical now. "If it were up to y'all, slavery would probably still exist." Take three deep breaths.
Here's the thing: If somebody says something that the least bit strikes you the wrong way you will absolutely lose your mind, as you have here. Yet Whitey [aka ol' Al] is expected to take with good humor being accused of supporting slavery, which would have to be about the number one worst thing you could be accused of in this time and place.
When you've calmed down Ms Diva, you may wish to apolgize for that hateful, slanderous, and totally unwarranted comment.
31 - Mac Diva
Not in this life time.
32 - Eric Olsen
This one is starting to spiral out of control:
There IS still racism
Not everything unpleasant that happens to people of color is caused by racism
There is such thing as reverse racism
Andy did not say any of these things - "1) Black people cause racism by mentioning it,
2) Only people of color commit crimes,
3) Only white people are victims of crimes"
He said "what if" he claimed that the crime he encountered as the only white person in the neighborhood was due to reverse racism - his claim would be viewed as absurd. Obviously he does not believe the crime he encountered was due to racism.
Conservatism does not equate with racism, although they may coexist, but looking for it, assuming the conflation, is not fair or helpful.
In every direction and for everyone it is always much easier to make generalizations and jump to conclusions than to take each person and each situation individually, but isn't that what we are all looking for, to be treated as an individual and not stereotyped?
This is a much more complicated matter than anyone has expressed here.
33 - Rodney Welch
Al, you must have misunderstood me. I can't stand hip, I can't stand cool, and the chances are excellent I can't stand most of what you deem to be so.
34 - Joe
Could somebody please alert the media, Mac Diva just accused someone of bigotry, racism, insensitivity...
Bigotry>/a>, an interesting word choice.
35 - Mac Diva
Really, Eric? When is the last time the cops stopped you for driving while white? It is ridiculous to deny that people of color face discrimination daily and white people do not. Natalie's main piece on her blog currently is about a similar incident, but I guess you think she is lying too -- or that a certain idiot you are determined to defend has had the same experience.
And, no, I make no apologies for referring to a white person as ignorant, stupid and an idiot. Plenty of them are exactly that.
36 - The Theory
this is rediculous. obviously some people can't be reasoned with. it's their loss, not ours.
peace.
37 - andy
no Mac Diva. I didn't generalize black people at all. I pointed the finger at YOU. But of course since you represent the entire black community, I guess that means I'm pointing the finger at all blacks.
Whenever someone points out your stereotypes that you use for white people, you call them a racist. That's great. all us "white folks" must be cross burning sheet wearing rednecks then.
I never said only people of color commit crimes. If you're refering to my part about my neighborhood, that's just proof of how you take something and blow it up into this big racist thing.
I also never said anything about how white people are the victims of this crime.
Look, no one's denyig that black people are the target of discrimination. WHat the hell does that have to do w/ me or most white people? That's like saying that all black people are criminals. It's just hard to be open to someone who hates white people. Who's the bigot? From just about every one of your comments, it sounds like you are. Of course since I'm white and you're black, I'm a racist for saying that.
Maybe instead of putting the blame on us "white folk" you should turn the attention to yourself.
38 - Eric Olsen
It appears we are speaking different languages as I just wrote I believe racism is real. I also said not everything unpleasant that happens to people of color happens because of their skin color. I neither said nor implied anyone is lying - I didn't even imply anyone was mistaken regarding any particular incident.
How could I know the "real" motivation of an incident I didn't experience? As often as not, people don't even know their own motivations. All I said was don't jump to conclusions.
Here is a simple fact you might not be aware of: one of the most common "profiles" police look for is white males in their forties driving under the speed limit - they are thought to be transporting drugs - in particular marijuana. Is this racism? How should I interpret it when I am pulled over for meeting that profile, which I have been? Since I can't change my race, gender or age, now I always speed.
39 - Mark Saleski
really? holy crap, i'm white, 41 and a pokey driver!!
40 - andy
Try being fat. It's always funny for EVERYONE to make fun of fat people. Yeah...we're not discriminated against at all....hehe
41 - Mac Diva
Well, it is obvious I'm not going to get any respect around here.
Eric, I leaving you to semiliterate white guys who can't think or write their way out of a paper bag like Andy and Joe since that is who you obviously identify with. Y'all deserve each other. I am deleting my entries from Blogcritics. Consider this my resignation.
42 - Dew
o-my
43 - Dew
o-my
44 - andy
hmmm.
45 - Eric Olsen
Come on now MD, I believe that is an overreaction. My whole point is exactly that I don't "identify" with anyone. I agree with any number of people - including you - depending upon the issue. You have made yourself a strong presence here - do you really want to just leave? Then everyone loses. Why don't you think it over, please.
46 - Al Barger
Diva's tirade makes for a little teaching opportunity, so let us make the most of it.
As Ayn Rand would say, emotions are not tools of cognition. Said differently, you do not know by feeling. True knowledge comes from reason built on empiricism.
Ms. Diva feels very strongly that a bunch of bigoted white guys are disrespecting her. In fact, she feels so strongly about it that she has quit us to prove how adamantly she feels.
OK, I believe you. You really, really truly and deeply feel that we're a bunch of Klansmen.
That, however, does not constitute proof that we are. The record [ie this post and the comments] shows no sign of white boys being abusive or disrespectful.
Mac Diva can hold her breath until her face turns blue, but that will not turn her spiteful bigoted attitudes into truth.
47 - Joe
Making a graceful exit certainly has become a lost art.
48 - andy
amen Al.
49 - Mac Diva
Actually, my exit is not quite finished. My next step will be to contact Amazon to see if it wants to be associated with bigots like Al, Andy, Joe, etc., who dominate this site. (Eric has already established himself as afraid to stand up to them, so that is the path for change left.) I doubt Amazon realizes what the 'face' of Blogcritics has become. Corporate America generally does not want to be associated with people who support bigotry or who can be perceived as doing so. I doubt Amazon is an exception.
Furthermore, as a resident of the Pacific Northwest it embarasses me to see one of our most famous names carrying water for bigots. I doubt Amazon is aware of how it is being misused and I will correct that oversight. If it turns out that Amazon is happy to be associated with person who wrote these items that is fine:
here
here
here
However, I don't believe that will be the result.
Since Eric's other pals, Joe (a troll who goes from site to site posting racist rhetoric) and Andy, don't actually write blog items, it is particularly revealing they are more welcome here than someone who contributed to the site was. Eric has interesting priorities.
50 - Eric Olsen
I can't say I wasn't warned, but I choose to look for the best in people and not hold the past against them.
I do not take "sides" on any issue - I give my opinion and try to foster an environment of mutual respect.
There are always people who can't handle being disagreed with - on anything.
Such is life.
51 - andy
more likely than not, Amazon will look at this site(if they even care enough to go that far), and have no clue as to what MD is talking about, and see the only bigot here is her.
52 - Eric Olsen
The site is an open book, so to speak.
53 - Mark
Andy said: "so, as a white person, I'd never be in that situation where someone's just an ass and won't open the door for me? It's just a racial thing? Come on. People are asses. Period. Whether you're black, white, hispanic, doens't matter. Assness is color blind. Welcome to the 21st century. People aren't nice. I was the only white person on my block when I lived downtown. What if I said it was a race issue when my car got broken into twice, or my alley was chosen as a heroin drop off point, or when my friend got mugged outside of my apartment? Give us "white folk" some credit Mac. We're trying to better ourselves and move on. It seems like you're the one holding on to something."
MacDive said: "Sometimes, I wonder how even white folks (who are very tolerant toward other white people) can tolerate "Andys." Between the stupidity and the bigotry, I would be like "Outta here, dude.""
Hmmmm......
54 - Mark
Andy said: "so, as a white person, I'd never be in that situation where someone's just an ass and won't open the door for me? It's just a racial thing? Come on. People are asses. Period. Whether you're black, white, hispanic, doens't matter. Assness is color blind. Welcome to the 21st century. People aren't nice. I was the only white person on my block when I lived downtown. What if I said it was a race issue when my car got broken into twice, or my alley was chosen as a heroin drop off point, or when my friend got mugged outside of my apartment? Give us "white folk" some credit Mac. We're trying to better ourselves and move on. It seems like you're the one holding on to something."
MacDiva said: "Sometimes, I wonder how even white folks (who are very tolerant toward other white people) can tolerate "Andys." Between the stupidity and the bigotry, I would be like "Outta here, dude.""
Hmmmm......
55 - John3p
Mac Diva...
Tears are not arguments. -Machado de Assis
56 - Cobb
wow. i'm about to save this thread off into a pdf and put it into the archives.
y'all crossed the tibbs threshold here.
57 - Al Barger
Cobb, please tell us more. Explain the "tibbs threshold" thing, and how exactly it applies here. I was at your OPENING SALVO, with the riff on Poitier. I didn't quite get it.
In short, could you dumb this down for a Kentuckian such as myself?
58 - Cobb
this is my first outing to blogcritics other than the cover page. i don't do much pop culture so i never looked closer. so understand when i read the initial exchange i had no idea that there were 300 some odd writers. nevertheless there is clearly a core, most of whom i presume are on this and the 'happy hate crime' thread. so i was rather shocked about the blase attitude taken by you and the others in macdiva's resignation. i'm familiar with the tone of her writing and this stuff was too fast, too loose and patently disrespectful to my ears.
now what i'm absolutely sure that macdiva understands, as i do, is the dynamic at work when a black person's credibility is called into question on a matter of race. as soon as she spoke of her association with patricia j. williams i instantly knew the context. basically, what happens when blackfolks say something is racist and whitefolks say it's not? the black person gets labeled as crazy, hypersensitive and whitefolks play the 'asshole card' against what they see blackfolks as playing the 'race card'. there is a contest of standing. then it degrades into comparative victimology. the whole argument here was textbook. the only thing missing was one other black person to play macdiva off of, which in the end made it extra cruel.
i've written about this stuff in the context of 'bells rules'.
..but directly to the tibbs threshold. i have posted this archival entry (from cafe utne, june 1996) on the subject for clarification.
i don't subscribe to the idea that such matters 'are a black thing, you can't understand', you meaning anybody non-black. but i sympathize with, as someone put it, hobson's choice on the matter. often people are so wrong that it's not worth correcting them, and whenever someone retreats into a racial victim's fetal position it's unlikely that the parties involved are going to have any satisfactory resolution, unless of course such conflict is the object of someone's desire.
in this case at blogcritics, there was no question in my mind that macdiva got the raw end of the deal. the simplest and most straightforward way to look at it was that she no longer felt that she could be respected and share space. i wonder what are the chances that any other of the writers would resign in disgust over the issue. is that a matter of pride? is that a matter of ownership or seniority at blogcritics? who's reputation suffers most? i don't know blogcritics so i can't answer these questions, but from my perspective i'm not sure it was such a big deal, but that has to do with the tone of the discussion i percieve. i'm being snobby about a site about pop culture and the cavalier manner in which race was discussed in those two threads. who cares what blogcritics says about race? on the basis of what little i've seen there you've lost your most credible writer. from that perspective blogcritics gets the raw end of the deal, a point macdiva intended to slam home by her ratting out to amazon. everything i saw was perfectly predictable and probably unavoidable given the larger context of the matter of neo-confederate advocacy. i have no comment about that matter now.
one other thing i would add is that there should be no question that macdiva owns her own words. that she would choose to scribble her history at blogcritics shows the gravity of the offense taken. regardless, i'm fairly certain the law would give her the of her copyright by default unless she specifically disowned it by joining blogcritics.
59 - Cobb
as for 'friends' i always thought it was insipid and i found it impossible to believe those nincompoops were new yorkers, and yes the show was very white in a self-absorbed naive goofy kind of way (as opposed to 'keeping it real'). contrast that with 'seinfeld' and 'mad about you' going up the curve to good. my favorite was 'dream on' which was more overtly jewish, grownup, and new yorky, and yes it did have a well-drawn black character.
hell, i even liked 'hermans head' better than 'friends', and yes i am a big fan of 'frasier'. on the other hand, i prefer shows like 'law & order' so you can see how i'd have a problem with 'friends'. all those climb the curve towards 'keeping it real' which is how 'law & order' is a more culturally black show as blacks come and go from the core cast.
there's a real debate about what's culturally black or white on tv that hasn't been discussed here, not that i'm particularly interested, but i've done my share to put in some adjectives. take it away.
i couldn't identify a captain beefheart song if my life depended on it, but i did hear the npr segment about him several months ago. i didn't think he was all that clever.
60 - Mac Diva
Oh, I'm back! Everyone but Al and a couple guys who echo whatever he says asked me to return, so I have. I was surprised by how well, some of the, umm, white, Blogcritics understand the game Al tries to run. Suffice it to say the guy has a problem with women and minorities -- not to mention anyone who gets in the way of his monstrous ego. I push all his buttons simultanously.
My better response to the claim the neo-Confederates aren't full of feces was to write a three-part series, replete with documentation, and post it here and at Mac-a-ro-nies. The response has been very good. I've even heard from members of the SCV who don't agree with the increasingly radical nature of the neo-Confederate movement.
Your analysis strikes me as correct, Cobb. And, the politics of the white people involved doesn't seem to matter. Disagreeing with white liberals will also get a person of color called 'crazy.' I think it may be a stand-in for the usual claim black people are stupid. If that is obviously not so, then a replacement insult is needed. 'Crazy' serves that purpose. It would be interesting to poll very bright African-Americans and see how many of us have been through this. I bet it would be a significant majority.
61 - andy
Mac, I would have been more apt to listen to what you felt was wrong about my origional comment had you not flown off the roof and started calling me a bigot and racist right away. Here's a recap, an explaination, and hopefully some clearing up of my bigot title.
I said...
"so, as a white person, I'd never be in that situation where someone's just an ass and won't open the door for me? It's just a racial thing? Come on. People are asses. Period. Whether you're black, white, hispanic, doens't matter. Assness is color blind. Welcome to the 21st century. People aren't nice."
I can see how you thought that was downplaying the fact that people of color are the target of discrimination daily. That wasn't my point, so I apologize for coming across that way. My point, as stated by others, was to throw out another point of view. Maybe the person was just being an ass. I did not mean to point the finger and say, "oh you're just playing the race card". As a white "folk", I probably don't understand what it's like to be discriminated against, and I probably would see situations differently if I had to deal w/ discrimination of that matter daily.
Then I said:
"I was the only white person on my block when I lived downtown. What if I said it was a race issue when my car got broken into twice, or my alley was chosen as a heroin drop off point, or when my friend got mugged outside of my apartment?"
I'm guessing this is the statement where you said I said:
"2) Only people of color commit crimes,
3) Only white people are victims of crimes"
Mac, honestly. That would be like me reading your post and saying that you said:
Only white people are racist
Only black people are the target of this racism.
My point was this. You took an act against you(assuming by a white person) as an act of racism. From that perspective, should I take acts against me by people of different color as acts of racism?
That's all I was saying.
62 - Al Barger
Andy- there is simply no legitimate, honest way to get from what you said about your experience living in a black neighborhood to anything like what Mac Diva said about your comments.
Considering again her great complaint about the Mac Diva Non-Door Opening Massacre, maybe the non-door opener was not just being an asshole. If she treats her meatspace neighbors anything like she routinely treats people here at Blogcritics, why would any of them be nice to her? Perhaps their response was not based on any generalized dislike of black folks. Maybe they just thought (for no possible good reason, I'm sure) that SHE individually and personally is a hateful shrew.
She definitely seems to expect far nicer treatment from others than she expects to give them in return.
Would Mac Diva hold a door for Al Barger?
63 - Mac Diva
Definitely. . . if there was fire and brimstone on the other side.
64 - Al Barger
You hate me, and want me to burn in hell. Yes, Miss Diva, I get it.
Again, it seems obvious that you're significantly emotionally disturbed. I know it's not nice to make fun of sick people. Thing is, when you do nothing but curse and spite me ALL the time EVERY time, after a while you're going to loose my sympathy. Having mental problems does NOT mean that you are not a jerk worthy of rebuke.
However, I try not to close a door forever. You have only thrown (mostly dumb) words at me, nothing more. If you wish to repent and apologize, I would be inclined to graciously forgive you and make friends.
I have reason to believe we all shall be received in Graceland
65 - andy
Al, my neighborhood was mostly hispanic hehe.
66 - kim
i hate when you have that one friend you get really close to then you being another friend around then it there the close ones i guess that why theres a saying twos company three a croud and i found that out the hard way cause i got rid of all my other friends for the two now i see that it not for 3 only 2
67 - Al Barger
Brothers and sisters- Deliverance is at hand. Just HOURS from now the noodle-salad-eating apostles of white bread nothingness will be GONE.
Thank you, Jesus.
Now if you'd just help us out by smiting all the copies and ending the nightmare of eternal syndication, we'll be grateful.
Thank you in advance.
68 - Al Barger
Hallelujah! The day of liberation is HERE! By the end of the day, it will be finished, and Satan will come to collect their friendly souls in completion of the original deal.
You don't think a show this crappy turd log became such a big hit for so many years by LUCK, do you?
69 - Ben Masters
There are a couple of sitcoms of the past that I have gotten hooked on from their DVD releases, and they are "Mary Tyler Moore" and "Taxi." Those sitcoms, based on what I've seen of them, delivered the quality humor that "Friends" and its ilk never could. I am actually laughing at them-- I could never do that with any of today's sitcoms or those from the '90's.
70 - Fan
I think this is the first time I see someone who doesn't like friends.
But al, if you think that friends was a huge hit by "LUCK" then you're a complete moron.
just because you don't capture the greatness that is in "friends" doesn't make it bad.
I've noticed someone who wrote: liking friends has always been uncool. You couldn't be more wrong..after 4 years the series ended and it's still one of the most popular shows, however, pseudo-intelligent people will categorize you if you like friends because the humour in friends is basic and very modest.
71 - Al Barger
Fan- Thanks for reading my story and taking time to comment. I certainly do not contest the fact that the show was and remains very popular. And I don't care that liking Friends is considered to be un-cool. I personally am the arbiter of what is and isn't cool, so outside opinions there don't matter.
But the show really sucked. Lots of people like lots of sucky things all the time. I don't care how many people buy Celine Dion or 50 Cent albums, they suck. If every last person in the land bought a Michael Bolton album, that would just be evidence that everyone else in the land had sucky taste.
Sometimes good stuff is popular, and sometimes it can't be given away. Sometimes sucky stuff makes a big splash.
But it's a free country (more or less), and if you get some satisfaction out of Friends, then more power to you.
I would, however, recommend some alternate programming for your entertainment and enlightenment. Here's my idea of the ALL TIME GREAT SITCOMS.
72 - Fan
You are right, I was rude and I'm sorry.
It's just I hate it when people recognize the success of something then blame it on "luck". Well at least we have something we agree on: popular does not equate good or entertaining and that certainly goes for 50 cent
73 - Fan
By the way ignore my other posts, it looks like even guys suffer from pms-moods from time to time.
I definately agree with most of your list (except for bernie Mac) and the most positive thing about it was not including the heavily overrated Seinfeld -- I guess I have to add IMHO
74 - Al Barger
Thanks Fan. Once or twice in life even the great Al has been short tempered, for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
I don't like Friends or Celine Dion, but I wouldn't ascribe their success simply to "luck." They worked hard and put a lot of effort into their stuff, as does 50 Cent and Jon Bon Jovi. Their success might reflect what I would consider bad taste among the public, but they all meet the entertainment requirements of a great many people - just not me.
75 - FowlLeauge
"To me, words like hip, with-it, or cool have come to be synonomous with being trendy, immature, adrift in the winds of shifting opinion, and completely alienated from one's own thoughts or feelings."
I definitely agree with you.
Al: How many episodes of friends did you see? You could ballpark it