Sera talks about the introduction of angels to the mythology, Castiel, Dean’s faith issues, and Sam and Ruby's strange relationship.
A seven-week hiatus can be rather maddening. Given Supernatural’s explosive season four and the mind-boggling material that’s been presented for ten episodes, this long time to reflect has left me with more questions than answers. I’m sure I’m not alone.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments76 - Lauren
"Our dissatisfaction with the way Sam's been handeled has nothing to do with Dean and the mytharc. It has to do with the way the characterization of Sam is handled, and the fact that so much less attention is paid to it! Kripke himself has gone on record TWICE saying he shoved Sam to the background - in season 2 over their father's death, and he dropped ALL Sam storylines in season 3."
Kripke only spoke of Sam's MYTHARC storyline needing to be adjusted in season 3 because of the strike. He NEVER said he shoved "Sam" himself to the background. And he did NOT drop all of Sam's storylines in S3 (Ruby, Lilith, for example), nor did he say that he did.
"As for the limp Sam forum, that is a forum among friends, as someone else said. "
Ah, so that makes it okay to BASH Dean and Jensen then ... if it's just between you Sam fans ... no harm, no foul? Okay then. I guess it is much easier to criticize when there are no dissenting opinions among you and no one that will argue your points.
"So no whining about limp Sam if you're not going to whine about TWoP, too. There's no difference between the two, except Kripke reads TWoP."
Yes, that was EXACTLY MY POINT. The rabid Sam fans are NO BETTER at limp Sam (as much as you think you are). The fans on that site are just as critical of Dean/Jensen there, even MORE so because there are no Dean or Jensen fans there to argue the other side. You can be ANY kind of fan at TWoP and post. There are plenty of Sam/Jared fans who post there. Who cares what Kripke reads ... that's not the point I'm trying to make. It's the behavior and attitude of the fans that I'm talking about. And I guess if Alice wants to encourage that overly negative attitude perpetuated on your Sam forum, then that's her choice. Personally, I think the rabid Sam fans are bringing down the ENTIRE fandom right now. Especially sad because Supernatural is experiencing is best season ever.
"This unerring belief that Dean must be number one and the best and most important and no one else may say anything different is ridiculous. What's worse is that it's not really about Dean as a character, it's about Jensen and some fans obsession with him. It happens on every freaking show he's on (Dark Angel, anyone? Don't you know, Michael Weatherly was eeeeevil and meaaaan to Jensen). And Kripke caters to it like a dog chasing a stick. "
Ah, there we go ... I knew it wouldn't be long before the criticism of Jensen's fans reared it's ugly head. Ugh. This is just so insulting. But I guess I'm not at all surprised ... some fans just gotta diss Jensen and his fans in order to prop up Jared. It's just sad and pathetic. Dean is now included in the mythology because he *deserves* to be. Kripke is NOT catering to certain fans. It makes sense for the show and it's made the show better.
77 - Missy
"interesting that Buddy.tv just elected Mystery Spot as the best episode of 2008 if this season is so stellar?"
Was that a poll, or was it a list compiled by the editors? Because Don of BuddyTV, as previously stated, is a major Sam fan. If TWoP elected an episode of this season as the best of '08, would you take it as gospel?
"TWOP moderates Sam fans heavily, I got booted out for "being too preachy" when I cited Milgram's research in regards to obedience."
Tell that to Rachel, who thinks that the moderation of fans at TWoP indicates whether they're too shrill or not. And you did PLENTY of things that you would've been banned for... I recall quite a bit of boards-on-boards in your post. If Barnes waited that long to ban you, she was being really, really generous. Probably because you're a Sam fan.
"And the fact that despite the promotion SPN is getting this year, it still hovers around 4 million."
Funny, those ratings are better than we've gotten in years. And believe me, if this was another Sam-centric season with Dean as dumbass sidekick, Sam fans would take these ratings and praise them to the skies, telling us how they proved that everyone was sick of Dean.
"Right now the brotherly bond seems very dysfunctional with the abusing big brother who emotionally manipulates (God doesn't want you to) and physically abuses his brother that carries enormous guilt over his brother's fate."
:) Of course. And you guys just love Dean over there at the limpdick forum, don't you? You don't bash him at all, like those evil EDGs do to your Sam. Thanks for proving your comrades wrong, Bright! I know I can always count on you for that!
"The beautiful thing with the net is that you are allowed to have different POVs and in no way do I attach you for having another view than mine. I just don't agree with you."
"I thought it was a clique of fanatics but I had to rethink after seeing what went on in the SPN fandom. Now I just try my best to avoid the rabid fans."
Hee! And I can even count on you to prove your own statements wrong, within a single post! Brilliantly done.
78 - Rachel
I'm not dissing Jensen to prop up Jared. I have no problem with Jensen. But I figured since you were dissing the way Sam fans were acting, it was only fair to point out the other side. You are, after all, the one here who initially called out a single fan (bright) because you disagreed with her. I believe that's a "personal attack."
79 - Rachel
Missy, I've read TWoP for the spoiler post, but I've never posted over there. I haven't had the pleasure of being banned, but I don't think that mod discriminates in her banning. She just doesn't seem to like whining.
80 - Missy
In that case, Rachel, what point were you trying to make? That TWoP is a fair place where fans of both brothers can post equally? If that's what you meant, then I totally agree with you.
81 - To Claire
"Just because NOW Dean's entire existence doesn't revolve around Sam (as it ALWAYS has in the past), doesn't mean that he isn't concerned about Sam. Dean has been told by an angel of the Lord that his mission is to stop the Apocalypse to save humanity from Hell on Earth. Hello!! I think that might just be weighing heavily on Dean's might right now. And Dean is dealing with the aftermath of the most traumatic experiences EVER, you might just want to cut him a little slack if he needs to concentrate his efforts on healing HIMSELF for a while."
If that what it is, do you think that Dean's acting out-of character? Nothing is more important to Dean than Sam. He wouldn't care if the world ends(i.e. AHBL 2). Also, Dean never put his well-being before Sam. If he knows that Sam has problem, he will suck up his own issue to focus on Sam.
That's who Dean is. He never wants on the spotlight. Being the BIG BROTHER to Sam. That is pretty much his life's mission, though I must admit it is not necessary a healthy mission. But that is one big trait that make me love Dean so much.
82 - Yumi
Missy: I'm arguing that both Dean and Sam's characterization/storylines have problems. Not just Sam (though there are more problem with Sam then Dean). I also not that there is problem with the Ruby's story as well.
83 - Claire
"Dear Claire - interesting that Buddy.tv just elected Mystery Spot as the best episode of 2008 if this season is so stellar?"
Dear *bright73 -- that is ONE person's opinion on ONE web site. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything other than personal preference. But no matter because I found MS to be a spectacular episode all around. I loved how it showed Dean as this ray of sunshine (Dean being his WONDERFUL self!) in Sam's life and then the stark contrasting darkness and emptiness of Sam's life without Dean. But again one guy rating his own preferences on one web site isn't relevant to the surge in ratings and across the board critical praise that we're getting this season.
"The drop from the first episode to the second is rather telling. And the fact that despite the promotion SPN is getting this year, it still hovers around 4 million. It lost heavily from the first episode and if the season was that stellar, it should be gaining, not losing viewers. "
Uh, yes of course we lost viewers from 4.1 to 4.2, because 4.2 had competition of Grey's Anatomy, one of the most popular programs on TV and it was the series premiere. 4.1 did NOT have this competition, so the drop was natural and to be expected (and it's why looking at DVR numbers for our show is really important). And then we add in The Office/30 Rock and CSI premieres further in the season. I'm sure I don't have to explain how the ratings system works or how our competition affects our ratings. The simple fact is that THIS season the ratings are up for our show and it's even more significant because ratings are generally down across the board this season. Our significant gains this season have been sited in numerous media articles, even Buddy TV had an entire article our great ratings as well. So yay for our show!
And I don't know why you have to bring up comparisons between the actors here. None of the previous commenters were discussing Jared vs. Jensen's acting. I just read over every comment and NO ONE here said that Jensen's acting was better (a million times better?) than Jared's. And NO ONE here said that praising Jared equals bashing Jensen. It seems to me that you have your own issues with Jensen and/or his fans. But you have the right to your opinion. I'll leave it at that.
84 - Anna
"If that what it is, do you think that Dean's acting out-of character?"
Not to cut in, but... no. I don't think it's out of character at all. Dean stuck by his dad after the Stanford fight, rather than going to protect Sam at school, because he felt his dad needed him and he was devoted to saving people. He parted ways with Sam in Scarecrow in order to save a couple who would die if he left with Sam. He gave up a chance for Sam to be happy and safe in the wish world (as far as he knew, at the time) because he couldn't let all the people they'd saved die.
So... no. Dean will sacrifice himself to save Sam. He became apathetic when Sam died, in grief and guilt. But he has never been such a slave to Sam that he couldn't see any other considerations, or choose to save innocents rather than follow Sam everywhere. And he has broken so hard before that he couldn't shove down his own feelings for the sake of Sam's... see Everybody Loves a Clown. Then think about Everybody Loves a Clown times 500, and that's what you have in the aftermath of Hell.
I think it's a little ridiculous to think that Dean would be such a superman that he could always shove down any pain, no matter how enormous and extreme, to kiss away every booboo of Sammy's. That's not who he's ever been. He's able to shove down quite a lot, and has done many times, but he has his limits just like anyone else.
He's worrying about Sam a lot this season. But I think he realizes that what Sam does is ultimately up to Sam. Dean can't control Sam's very MIND, or his choices... he can only tell him how he feels about it and love him as best he can. I think that's a really good thing... acknowledging that Sam is an adult, and can make his own decisions. Sam fans already call the guy controlling and abusive... can you imagine how bad it would be if he DIDN'T acknowledge that Sam can make his own decisions?
85 - Josie
I find it odd that people expect gushing about Dean on a site primarily dedicated to Sam. Some posters there are more critical of Jensen, but they don't bash him. Same goes with Dean--they are more prone to bashing the writers. In fact, I would say that is a frequent event, for better or worse.
None of this is relevant to the heart of the argument here. We can get lost in which faction is crazier or who is a bigger hypocrite or whether TWOP is the best thing since sliced bread or if limp Sam is the worst thing to ever happen. The point is much more simple and it's been sort of obscured by this pettiness.
Point: A good portion of fandom misses Sam and sees a disparity in the writing and in the focus of the writers as seen on screen, in interview and in spoilers. Freak out about Sam sites all you want, but it doesn't negate the validity or growing popularity of the viewpoint.
So I'm actually gleeful about Alice's response here--it feels good to be taken seriously.
86 - valerie
Sam has been treated as a chopped liver this season, please go back to the roots of the show, both characters are important to the story. Besides, i am saturated of dean´s overexposure ("dean super hero of the world", "dean chosen by god", "dean loved by angels", "dean the stronger", "dean the funnier", bla, bla, bla").
87 - Rachelly
It is so wonderful to have a chance to talk with you, Alice, about our thoughts and feelings about SN this year, and the interview you conducted. I loved your questions and thought they represented a wide variety of questions that many if not most fans would be interested in having answered.
One thing I'd love for someone to ask Kripke and Co is where the brotherly relationship went...is going? I miss the brotherly bond...Sam and Dean, two brothers fighting evil on the same side. The brothers seem so disconnected relationship wise this year and even last. It hurts me to see Kripke writing Dean as he is...punching Sam when he's angry with him, condemning his little brother as not even knowing right from wrong, saying he'd want to hunt him if he didn't know him.(all such hurtful stuff) This isn't the Dean I fell in love with. I get that Dean's been through hell, literally, but I really thought that his bond with Sammy could weather the test of anything. Instead Dean punches him, questions his integrity, threatens to leave him, no longer trusts him... That just seems so out of character for Dean and it is changing the brother relationship. Sammy is lying fearing that Dean will not receive the truth, maybe even ashamed of what he's done and in the end, their relationship is crumbling and it is killing me!
Maybe Dean still feels as dedicated to Sam as he always has been and the epicness of the story line is drowning it out, but if so, please don't let it, Mr. Kripke! Keep Dean awesome, have an epic story line, and strengthen the brotherly bond!
I not only feel incredibly sad for Sam and Dean's relationship this year, but also feel incredibly frustrated that I have no sense of Sam this season. Many storylines that caught my interest have been abandoned. I feel like I know nothing more of Sam this year than I did a few years back. Yep, he still has powers. Yep, something about demons wanting to follow him or kill him. Oh, we did learn that angels want him to stop his powers....hmmmm and his mom sold him out unintentionally. But we're still stuck at "will he go evil" which I guess is to be determined and "did he come back wrong" which I think got lost somewhere. And I don't really feel connected to him sympathetically or any other way because his character isn't really developing. Any insight offered into his character is so subtle, it is impossible to interpret leaving the viewer to speculate.
One of the earlier posters mentioned that they felt Sam's character truly died at the end of season 2 and I felt exactly the same way. Can't this show be about both brothers( Sam and Dean) and the awesome brotherly relationship they have? It is so rare to have such amazing chemistry between two actors off screen, why not capitalize on that chemistry on screen, tightening their bond as brothers to stand united against evil? I thought that was the original premise anyway.
At this point, the show is getting painful for me to watch. I tune in hoping for a drop of the "willing to die for each other" relationship/unconditional love relationship/hurt-comfort relationship (anything to show me the depth of the brother's bond) but sadly I come up empty handed each time often lost in the epic story line that seems to have over taken the brothers'.
I'd love for Kripke and Co. to be made aware that we miss the "brotherly" relationship. Sure, drama is good, to stir up relationships even entertaining ...but for the purpose of deepening them, not flatlining them. I don't see the brothers growing closer and it makes me really sad.
I wish we could ask Kripke for a hint as to where the brother relationship is going. It is the only reason I hooked up with the show and without it...I'm losing interest. I don't know if it is going to get worse and honestly don't feel like I can take any worse.
88 - Missy
"I find it odd that people expect gushing about Dean on a site primarily dedicated to Sam."
I don't expect it. Which is why I find the lies about "Oh, we love Dean there, we never bash him like you bash Sam!" to be not only irritating, but unnecessary. If these fans would just cop to their bias, and drop the self-righteous BS about how they're so much better than the fans they call "EDGs" or "rabid" or "fanatics", then I wouldn't say a thing about them. But it's part of the schtick, for that group, to delude themselves into believing that the things they say are just the truth, whereas everyone else is crazy and vicious.
89 - Alice Jester
This all reminds me of my favorite Rodney Dangerfield joke. "I went to the fights and a hockey game broke out." :)
I honestly don't mind that everyone dukes it out here. Go for it. Fighting about TWOP and other forums seems a little strange for supporting a neglect of Sam's character, but hey, sometimes its better to get things out. It makes us all feel better in the end.
As to whoever though thinks that ratings are declining because of poor writing, I'll have to step in on that one. Ratings are way up, like 23% up. I've reported on it, so has every other entertainment writer. Only 30 Rock, How I Met Your Mother, and Gossip Girl have had a bigger increase. EVERYTHING else is down, and no, I'm not counting Football. The premiere in every returning show usually gets big ratings when a cliffhanger is involved, and the show has held up incredibly well when the competition has seen its ratings decline. With DVR ratings factored, the show averages about 3.8 million per episode. That does not count online viewing, iTunes, or episodes viewed on DVRs after 7 days. Last year it was 3.2 million.
Also, and this info ONLY comes from me reading interviews and Jensen's statements at the Chicago con, they went into season four believing this would be the last. There was a plan mapped out due to the early renewal, and this was supposed to be the season where Sam's story was to be told. Guess what? The premiere got 1 million viewers more than expected. 90210 didn't live up to expectations, and because Smackdown went, Thursday night is now The CW's biggest night. The only shows drawing buzz for The CW right now are Gossip Girl and Supernatural.
It became evident early on that season five was happening. Of course the network won't confirm this (it's too early), but considering they're close to signing Tom Welling and bringing back a ninth season of Smallville, I would say when that's announced its official for Supernatural as well.
Because of that, the story lines all got pulled back. Just like with the writer's strike, so far, it seems that Sam's storyline has suffered. I'm still holding out hope though.
90 - Missy
"Because of that, the story lines all got pulled back. Just like with the writer's strike, so far, it seems that Sam's storyline has suffered."
I agree with your analysis of why everything's slowed down. I would add, though, that it's not just Sam whose storyline has slowed. Dean's has as well. I'm sure if this was the last season, we would've gotten SOME indication by now of what exactly he's being expected to do, why he was chosen to do it, etc. Thus far, all we know is that Cas pulled him out of Hell and that Lillith is trying to free Lucifer. Similarly, Sam's storyline has moved forward in that he can now consciously and voluntarily use his powers, and he can use them for something he never could before- exorcising demons. We know that he slept with Ruby, who is now his best friend and confidante, and that he has the potential to become more powerful even than Castiel, an angel (Ruby said he could exorcise Alastair easily if he practiced, whereas Cas was taken out by Alastair). We know that there is a major downside to using the powers that we have not yet seen, as indicated by the angels' wariness, and that Sam is using them in an attempt to take control over his life. We have now learned that he was chosen because Mary was his mother, and that he is not meant to simply be a general over demons.
Just because Sam's storyline has slowed down with the addition of a fifth season, that hardly means he's being abused. Dean's storyline has slowed as well, and because it started much later, we know much less about it right now than we do about Sam's. Additionally, Sam is being shown to be the more badass hunter this season, while Dean is often left in the background, largely because of Sam's powers.
The thing is, I could easily complain about how slow Dean's story is. I don't, because I realize that we have one season of story to fit into two seasons now. But for the first time in the run of the show, both characters have meaty and substantial storylines, and the plot equality is so very delightful to me, after so many years of waiting for it, that I can't bring myself to complain too much about how slowly it's being revealed.
91 - Noni
In these 10 first eps of ssn 4, I just feel that these two brothers have been growing apart too much. For instance, Sam did not show much worried when Dean was facing death threat in Yellow Fever. And Dean was acting more angry to Sam (than worried), when he found Sam using his "dark side ability". What happened? Where is the "brotherly-bond" which defined this show in the previous seasons?
Yes, Dean had been going through hell literally. And Sam had been going through world without his brother at the same period. So, was this 4 months without each other resulted in the detachment? Will this continue through out the season? Then it will be kinda sad. I mean, I have seen this kind of distance in "What is and what never should be", and I don't like it.
For me, the most awesome aspect of SPN is the strong bond the brothers used to have and what they were willing to do for each other. So, when this is not there, the show just felt like it is loosing its subtance.
92 - To Anna
"I think it's a little ridiculous to think that Dean would be such a superman that he could always shove down any pain, no matter how enormous and extreme, to kiss away every booboo of Sammy's. That's not who he's ever been. He's able to shove down quite a lot, and has done many times, but he has his limits just like anyone else."
Yes I agree. Dean is only human. He has his limits. Dean's self-esteem and his relationship with Sam are not healthy. But my point was not about what should happen (I agree that Dean should think more about himself), but more of what would happen based on what we know about Dean so far.
And what would happen is that Sam is above everything else. No one puts Dean at superman standard, but himself. He expected that of himself, when it comes to Sam. When a brother dies, normal people would grieve and move on, but Dean refused to accept it. He sold his soul.
In the beginning of Season 3, he was acting recklessly to mask his fear about the deal and hell, but when Sam called for his support in Fresh Blood, he stopped and became Sam's brother again. In the christmas episode, Dean wishes to celebrate christmas, but dropped the subject when Sam revealed that he could not celebrate christmas when Dean only had a few months left.
Season 2 is unique because not only Dean had to deal with John's death, he has to deal with the big secret, Sam's detiny and that one day he might have to kill Sam. If the problem is between Sam and the world (the apocalypse), or between Sam and himself (Hell issues), Dean most certainly chooses Sam. But when Sam is the problem, he has trouble dealing (initially)(looks how explosive the confrontation in Metamorphosis was).
Unless Sam does something super crazy, and i mean really really crazy, or Sam pushes Dean away, Dean will never walk away from Sam. Yeah, it's unhealthy, but that's Dean and his love for Sam.
93 - Jan
Alice: Back to the point - thank you for your interview with Sera. To me, she is one of the best writers out there. I look forward to part 2. I thoroughly enjoy your blog!
94 - Amanda (MysticKitty)
It took me ten minutes to even calm down enough to start posting this, and I am gonna TRY to be civil as possible AS I WAS IN MY ABOVE POSTS, and I really hate to get personal, but, here goes...
Yes, Claire, I am a member of the LimpSam forum. I joined up about a month ago, to vent my frustrations with the show, in consideration for the ppl I blogged with over at the community blogs on TVG.com (which are now kaput, BTW, so don't bother going and looking for them) b/c most of my friends there were liking this season overall, and I didn't wanna bring them down with any complaints...especially since I hardly EVER complained in regards to the show over there. They didn't call me Miss Happiness and Enthusiasm for nothing...I used to think the show could do no wrong! But that unforunately changed. At the LimpSam forum, I found ppl over there who shared the same frustrations I had, but BEFORE joining, I looked around, and MADE SURE that I wasn't joining the Sam-fan-equivalent of TWoP. The two main things I looked for were that:
a) there was no Jensen-bashing there, b/c I think the whole concept of actor-bashing, namely b/c it involves two real, wonderful people in Jared and Jensen, is INCREDIBLY stupid and distasteful to me.
Well, FYI, I DID NOT see any Jensen-bashing. You may be surprised to learn that there are forums for JENSEN as well as Jared over there, one for his TV talk show appearances, one for the upcoming MBV:3D, one for past movies, etc. And GUESS WHAT? Those threads are NOT for bashing him, they're for talking about him, talking about his movies/TV appearances IN THE SAME WAY WE WOULD ANY OF JARED'S. Being that it's the Sam-board, we don't have to have threads dedicated to Jensen at all, now, do we??? But we do, cuz hey, novel concept...we're fans of Jensen's as well! I honestly don't see how you could be a real fan of this show and love one but hate the other, and I don't care to hang around ppl like that on EITHER side.
b) there was no Dean-HATE/BASHING there. Yes, there's criticism of Dean there, but there's ALSO criticism of Sam, b/c we KNOW he's not perfect any more so than Dean is.
Thing is, THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE b/t criticism and outright HATE. We're not over there hoping that Dean dies and/or gets written off the show, we're not wishing for Dean to end up as an "empty shell of a man" come show's end, we're not making posts that are nothing but a litany of negative things about Dean without acknowledging the positive traits of his character as well, or at least pointing out traits we loved in him and MISS seeing on the show. And no, contrary to your belief, they DON'T all have to do with Sam. WE DO LOVE BOTH BOYS OVER THERE, thank you very much, I would not BE in a place that DIDN'T love both boys. Dean alone doesn't make this show for me, Sam alone doesn't make this show for me, THE BROTHERS make this show for me. And while Sam may be the brother closest to our hearts over at the Sam-boards, I haven't seen A SINGLE PERSON there who doesn't share that attitude of the brothers, BOTH OF THEM, being what makes the show.
And Lauren, yes, I do know Bright, have talked to her often since I joined the LimpSam board...but NO, I DO NOT know her as a Dean-hater and CERTAINLY not a Jensen-basher. So, in your words, NO, I DON'T "know that, right?" And I definitely do not appreciate being told what I know and don't know by someone who doesn't even KNOW ME.
I'm big enough to admit that I should've specified better when referring to TWoP. The entire site/Supernatural board is certainly not as I described and I didn't mean to imply that and apologize for doing so. There are many perfectly nice, considerate, and balanced posters over there...and before any of you can point your crooked little fingers, NO, I'm not just talking about the Sam/Jared fans. But there are a definite group of vitriolic Sam-haters over there - I don't think any other faction of the fandom would want Sam replaced with Castiel or to see him written/killed off the show, or for Sam to end up as an "empty shell of a man", do you? - and they are a dominant force on the main Supernatural threads. THOSE are the TWoP ppl I was referring to. And for the record, if any Sam fans are out spewing hate and nastiness wishing death and devastation on Dean akin to what SOME extremist Dean-fans are doing over on TWoP, I don't support them anymore than those Dean-fans.
You accuse us of being such a horrible forum to 'exist in an echo chamber'...did you ever stop to wonder WHY we do?! We do b/c whenever we dare to speak out in what are supposed to be balanced forums, all-too often anything that is pro-Sam is AUTOMATICALLY PERCEIVED AND TWISTED to be somehow ANTI-Dean, just like it's been here by a select few, when we are NOT ANTI-Dean to any degree. We're SICK AND TIRED of being beaten into submission with cruel words, and while I'm well aware that TWoP exists for all fan-types, thanks to the vitriolic ones there, the advertisement doesn't fit the reality in certain areas of the site. I've went over there, I've looked at the main Supernatural blogs, and as a fan who loves Sam, I sure didn't feel welcome over there. Heck, as a person who much prefers to engage in CIVIL/friendly conversation rather than ripping others apart, I DEFINITELY didn't feel welcome over there, at least not in those particular areas. Besides the LimpSam board, I am also a member of the TVG.com community blogs, as I said, have been since 2007...though we've now relocated since TPTB got rid of the blogs for year-end renovation. And guess what board has the reputation over there, among far more entirely bi-bro fans and DEAN-fans (who love Sam too) than Sam-fans, for being a nasty place to be? TWoP. Not LimpSam. In fact, LimpSam was RECCOMMENDED by a couple of entirely bi-bro fans as being a good site...to quote, "one that's especially great for Sam/Jared fans but that DOES NOT bash Dean/Jensen either".
And what makes me laugh and shake my head most of all, you say that the LimpSam board is a place with no Dean/Jensen fans, that they're not welcome there. When the reality, if you'd just LOOK AROUND THE BOARDS is, that the people on the LimpSam boards ARE Dean/Jensen fans THEMSELVES! You can believe that we're not all you want, but at the end of the day, WE KNOW where we stand on Dean/Jensen - which is that we love and appreciate him too but our hearts overall belong to Sam/Jared - and YOU DON'T. The comments you cited can easily be - and likely were - taken out of context, and in no way representational of the posters' feelings about Dean as a whole. But comments that Sam should be killed or written off the show/replaced with Castiel/should end up an empty shell of a man? Well, I think those speak loud and crystal clear.
Again, I apologize for inferring that ALL TWoPers are of that extremist mind and understand and acknowledge that they definitely aren't. And though I know I didn't say this, I also want to make it ***CRYSTAL CLEAR*** that I DO NOT see ALL Dean/Jensen fans in this negative, extremist light either, most of them are perfectly friendly and great...I've got as many Dean/Jensen-fan blogging buddies as I do Sam/Jared fan buddies, trust me! BUT NEITHER IS the LimpSam board the horrible, nasty place full of Dean/Jensen-hate that you select posters have made it out to be - i.e. the Sam-fan equivalent of the TWoP extremist sects - FAR, FAR FROM IT. I am on the board, so DON'T EVEN TELL ME I DON'T KNOW THIS, that I'm whitewashing things/being selective, or that I'm an outright liar. And since you inferred that the entire LimpSam forum and everyone on it is so overwhelmingly bad in the same way I mistakenly-in-general referred to TWoP, you'd all do well to apologize too. I've said all I can say, and tried to keep it as civil as possible, so take or leave it, I'm not wasting the energy on anybody who still doesn't listen after this point.
One last, important thing, though...speaking of not listening - and to repeat, don't enjoy getting personal in the least, but once again...Claire, Missy, and Lauren? You seem to have COMPLETELY IGNORED this statement from Deanna:
"No true Sam fan wants his development at the expense of Dean's--it's not an either/or proposition. We love them both, neither to the exclusion of the other."
Most of us have been STRESSING and STRESSING this in our posts up and down, left and right, and STILL, we're accused of it, of being upset over what Dean has, that he's had some storylines added to his character? I don't think so! You'd all ALSO do well to actually go back and read our arguments again. WE DON'T WANT LESS STORYLINE FOR DEAN. WE DON'T RESENT THAT DEAN NOW HAS MORE STORYLINE/A PART IN THE MYTHARC. What we ARE resenting is that Sam's storyline/characterization is languishing and substantially less important right now than Dean's. We NEVER, NEVER said that we want it to be MORE important than Dean's - and would NOT be gleeful and boasty and take pleasure if it was...I for one, am ALL for character-importance equality! - but simply AS important as Dean's. Or at least somewhere close to it. Right now, it's not even close! THAT'S what we're having issues with...I don't know how many times/different ways I can stress this! But one last try:
***IT'S NOT ABOUT WHAT DEAN HAS, IT IS ABOUT WHAT SAM DOES NOT HAVE!!! Which is not MORE than Dean, but simply AS MUCH as Dean!***
Now I've REALLY said all I can say; I'm exhausted, and really need to cool the temperature of my blood! And get a better grip. Myself and several other Sam-fans have already gotten their points across and acknowledged by Alice, and at the end of the day this is her blog and she's the one who has the contact with Sera. And again I thank you sincerely for that, Alice, and bow out b/c this fact that YOU heard us and gave us creedence is all that really matters.
95 - kim
Thank you for your prompt responses Alice and your promise to try and forward the comments to Sera.
I personally hate that thoughtful discussion in this fandom always seems to eventually dissolve into fighting. I know it sounds corny, but I wish we could all just get along. It normal for us each to have our favorites and on a show were there are only two main characters we should all feel fulfilled with our favorite's development. Why is that so difficult? I really want both "factions" to be happy, not just one. This should not be an unrealistic goal.
I may end up regretting it, but I must comment on the forum controversy. When the creator and writers of a show mention the name of the forum they frequent for fan reaction and that forum is predominately very anti-Sam (I don't know how anyone who reads the spoiler, episode, or brotherly bonds threads could honestly disagree with this statement), Sam fans would be foolish not to be concerned. The forum may be considered public, but when it is allowed to monopolized by 4 or 5 posters who are admittedly very well spoken and unrelentless in promoting their singular beliefs, it becomes biased. Believe me, I have tried to initiate polite discussion about Sam and I am either totally ignored or quickly shut down by several posters. If you like Sam, it is not really a community you in which you feel welcomed. I am personally disappointed because this forum is one of the first I turned when Supernatural started and I miss the respectful and positive discussion that used to occur there.
I certainly am not questioning the posters right to their opinions or Kripke's right to visit the site, but I am defending the right of Sam fans to be alarmed about the fact. I would guess that if Kripke or Sera announced tomorrow that they were going to start using Limp-Sam as their source for fan reaction, some people would have a problem with that as well.
I would also like to reiterate before finishing my final post on this issue, that I love the character of Dean. Yes, I complain about him sometimes, but I would never wish anything bad to happen to him or say that I want to be replaced with another character, or for his storyline to be placed on the back burner. Dean and Sam and their realtionship are the core of the show. They are both human and flawed and make mistakes and yet they are heroes. They are the reason most of us love Supernatural.
96 - Anna
"Season 2 is unique because not only Dean had to deal with John's death, he has to deal with the big secret, Sam's detiny and that one day he might have to kill Sam."
How is he not dealing with those same issues now, though? Just because Sam has decided that the powers are totally harmless, that doesn't mean that Dean's gonna forget the year or so of Sam's insistence that Dean should kill him if he were to become corrupted by the demon blood, or the people who he saw corrupted by the demon blood. That's still a very present and dominating issue between them, whether Sam still thinks it should be or not. After all... if he's becoming corrupted by the blood and powers, he's not gonna remain objective enough about it to tell Dean. And his Hell experience IS important, and it DOES need to be addressed, because it dealt a major blow to his ability to lead and make decisions... it made him believe he's not fit to do so, because of what he became. It's not wallowing in self-pity, it's a full-scale attempt to climb back up to a place where he can take responsibility for others, like he's always done.
"If the problem is between Sam and the world (the apocalypse)... Dean most certainly chooses Sam."
How do you explain his decision in What Is and What Should Never Be, then? Or Scarecrow? Or pre-Pilot, when he stayed with John? Or Jus in Bello, when he reamed Sam out for suggesting they kill Nancy? Or Time Is On My Side, when he left Sam to face the doctor alone because he had to go after Bela and the Colt? Dean loves Sam immensely, there's no question about it. But he's chosen things above Sam's feelings many times in the past. This doesn't mean that if he had to kill Sam to save the world, he would do it... I have no idea what he'd do in that situation. But it does mean that Sam's feelings are not always his top concern when people's lives are at stake. Dean can and does prioritize.
97 - cameron
Jesus effin Christ. To think I came here to read an interview with Sera, and comment on it, only to see a TWoP vs. other boards, Dean vs. Sam all out war.
On to my point. As a 50-something year old woman who loves watching Supernatural with my grandchildren I appreciate the interview, Alice. I happen to love the SHOW and ALL the characters (well, Ruby hasn't exactly grown on me) and do not see the need to divide the fandom into Sam/Dean forums. But maybe I'm just an old toot.
Thanks again Alice.
98 - Missy
"or for Sam to end up as an "empty shell of a man", do you?"
Heh! I think you completely ignored the next part of her post, when she said that she hoped they didn't go there. And you also completely ignored that this post came from a pretty hardcore Sam fan. This IS the post you're referring to, isn't it?
'They could have him be responsible for the apocalypse, and then go all super-charged crazy trying to put the genie back in the bottle. Leaving him a completely obsessed and broken man. So the powers don't make him go evil, but by using them, he destroys himself. It's pretty bleak and I hope they don't go there, but at least it would differentiate his consequences from those of other characters on the show.'
"one that's especially great for Sam/Jared fans but that DOES NOT bash Dean/Jensen either."
Then please to be addressing the Dean-bashing quotes from your site above. I'd love to know how you consider those NOT Dean-bashing. Oh, "taken out of context"? Well, since you mistook one of your own Sam fans on TWoP for an "EDG" because you took her "empty shell" comment out of context, I suppose you would know about that.
"Most of us have been STRESSING and STRESSING this in our posts up and down, left and right, and STILL, we're accused of it, of being upset over what Dean has, that he's had some storylines added to his character?"
What you say when you think no one's listening is far, far more indicative of your mindset than any lipservice you pay here to wanting equality. You know what has been said... I could go back and list some more examples for you, but from your reaction to the "yay, Dean is a dick, hahaha!" posts, I'm sure you'd try to tell me that those are taken out of context, too.
"Believe me, I have tried to initiate polite discussion about Sam and I am either totally ignored or quickly shut down by several posters."
How do they shut you down? I'm curious, because I've never seen this happen. I've seen agreement and disagreement with statements that people make, but the forum is moderated such that a conversation like the one we're having here would never, ever be permitted.
As for being ignored, I'm sure that does happen on occasion. But there are a good amount of Sam fans on the forum, so if your post didn't garner responses, it's not because there are no Sam fans there... it may just be that what you said wasn't something that sparked discussion that day.
99 - Amanda (MysticKitty)
"I find it odd that people expect gushing about Dean on a site primarily dedicated to Sam. Some posters there are more critical of Jensen, but they don't bash him. Same goes with Dean--they are more prone to bashing the writers. In fact, I would say that is a frequent event, for better or worse.
None of this is relevant to the heart of the argument here. We can get lost in which faction is crazier or who is a bigger hypocrite or whether TWOP is the best thing since sliced bread or if limp Sam is the worst thing to ever happen. The point is much more simple and it's been sort of obscured by this pettiness.
Point: A good portion of fandom misses Sam and sees a disparity in the writing and in the focus of the writers as seen on screen, in interview and in spoilers. Freak out about Sam sites all you want, but it doesn't negate the validity or growing popularity of the viewpoint.
So I'm actually gleeful about Alice's response here--it feels good to be taken seriously."
Thanks for this statement, Josie. That's why I'm done with it, I realize NOW how futile and pointless it is...like you said, the main point - the only point that really matters - has been made.
And P.S., yeah, we do get critical of the writers over there (possibly overly so) since they're the ones calling the shots at the end of the day. Better or worse, pointless or not, sometimes - like Alice said - it just feels better to get it out! LOL. But thank you for clarifying that while SOME - not all - posters there can be critical of Dean, and to a MUCH lesser degree, Jensen, nobody at the Sam-forum BASHES either or HATES either. And with that, officially DONE!
Carry on, those who feel the need! I've said my pieces, the main point has been made and credited, time to move on!
100 - Muse
"Dean is only human. He has his limits. Dean's self-esteem and his relationship with Sam are not healthy. But my point was not about what should happen (I agree that Dean should think more about himself), but more of what would happen based on what we know about Dean so far."
I think what we are seeing this season is that Dean is finally moving past the self-esteem issues that dictated that he put Sam above everything including his own self-interest.
His character is developing because of his experiences. When he sold his soul for Sam and then willingly went to Hell to continue protecting him, Dean gave everything he could. There is nothing more he could have done. So when he came back and found Sam was still putting himself at risk, I think Dean finally realized that he can only take so much responsibility for Sam and his choices and that ultimately it is up to Sam to make those decisions for himself.
I think Dean is realizing that he cannot save Sam from himself. That's not to say that he still doesn't love Sam completely and unconditionally and won't do everything in his power to save him from external threats, but he cannot keep Sam from going down the slippery slope if Sam is bound and determined to rush head-first downhill.
I also think that Dean, realizing in season 3 that John put unfair expectations on him and then this season being saved from Hell by the angels, is helping him get over the notion that only Sam's life is important.
I, for one, am thrilled that the writers are finally letting Dean's character develop beyond his self-esteem issues. He is a good person and deserves to be allowed to be more than just an extension of Sam and to see himself as having more worth than just being The Big Brother.
Regarding Sam's characterization, I think it is there but many of his fans just do not like the direction it is going. They seem to resent the role reversal from earlier seasons where Dean was the dark, damaged one and Sam was the smart, sensitive, good brother. However, I find this darker more driven Sam, fascinating. His character is also changing and developing due to his experiences. I would find him much less interesting if he were the same slightly naive college student he was in season 1.
I can't wait to see where the arcs are going for both brothers.
101 - Xiang
To Anna: Yes, Dean's chosen things above Sam's feelings many times in the past. But in all examples that you’ve given, What is and what should be/Scarecrow/Pre-pilot/Time is on My Side/Jus in Bello " Sam was not in any trouble or immediate danger. Further, in Jus in Bello, Dean saw other options for the fight. The argument is that if push comes to shove and Dean is forced to choose a side (either/or situation), it is Sam that he’ll most likely to choose. Of course that still means that Dean will try to look for other alternative solutions first. It is not in Dean’s character to abandon in the middle of the apocalypse war. But the moment Uriel takes action against Sam, I can imagine Dean will go “screw the apocalpse”. No matter how much Dean has changed, I still believe what he said to Sam in Season 2, “when dad says that I have to kill you, that is the last thing that I would do. And saving you is the last thing that I’ll do” (or something like that " my quote is not perfect), still holds true.
I think you misunderstood my post. I never said Dean’s experience in Hell or his role in the apocalypse is not important. The original point, apologized if not clear, is that when all else equal, Sam is priority. So hell experience and the apocalypse wouldn’t necessary justify Dean’s lack of concern for Sam (if there is) because that would be out-of-character. In addition, Dean wasn’t consciously aware of his experience in hell until perhaps the Wishful Thinking eps (I’m not about this time line because I haven’t since any indications or PTSD before Wishful Thinking to show that Dean remembers Hell " I’m thinking may be Yellow Fever triggers it???) and he still doesn’t fully know his role in the apocalypse. But Dean knows very well the potential danger and consequences in Sam using his power since Metamorphosis. Anyway, I do see bits and bits from both Dean and Sam showing concern for each other. But the missing interaction/closeness is evident. And the epicness of everything doesn’t help either.
To Muse: I like your interpretation. But I haven’t seen Dean move past his self-esteem issue. For example in Are you there God, he still doesn’t see how special he is. And from the spoiler, looks like there will be future episode to discuss once again Dean's self-esteem/self-worth issue. But there are more to Dean’s inclination to put Sam over his own interest than his self-esteem or daddy issues as I doubt that Dean cares for Sam out of obligation instead of love. Dean can regain self-esteem and see through John’s fault (I think even way back in Dead Man’s Blood Dean’s already started to question John’s order), and that still would not change the way he sees Sam. You can’t easily change a lifelong habit/love. Does Dean recgonize that Sam is an adult/an equal partner? Yes. But Sam will still always be his baby brother. Just like my mom, who has no self-esteem or any other psychological problems, and is still babying me, and I’m in my mid-twenties. It’s frustrating, yes. But that’s realistic.
“His character is developing because of his experiences. When he sold his soul for Sam and then willingly went to Hell to continue protecting him, Dean gave everything he could. There is nothing more he could have done. So when he came back and found Sam was still putting himself at risk, I think Dean finally realized that he can only take so much responsibility for Sam and his choices and that ultimately it is up to Sam to make those decisions for himself.
I think Dean is realizing that he cannot save Sam from himself. That's not to say that he still doesn't love Sam completely and unconditionally and won't do everything in his power to save him from external threats, but he cannot keep Sam from going down the slippery slope if Sam is bound and determined to rush head-first downhill.”
I also see glimpse of this as early as in Time is on My Side, where Dean left to go see Bella. At that time, Dean has already realized that Sam is his own man and he cannot make decisions for Sam and, thus by extension be responsible for Sam’s actions.
Just like you say realizing Sam is his own man and not taking responsibility for Sam’s action is not the same as not loving Sam or showing concern or trying to stop Sam from going down a dark path. There are external threats to Sam (Uriel’s threat, Ruby’s manipulation). But I guess it is not imminent enough for Dean to take action right now. When it is, like I say before, Dean chooses Sam. See my Season 2 “saving” quote above.
102 - Amanda (MysticKitty)
Well, sigh, b/c I was once again personally addressed, gotta add to.
I suppose I did misunderstand the "empty shell" comment, my bad on that. **I guess if you go into a site expecting to see something nasty, that's what you'll see. Even when it's not.**
But I hardly think I misunderstood those who have hope that Sam gets replaced with Castiel, or gets written off the show somehow.
As for the comments from the LimpSam forum, if I failed to really read that particular post at TWoP for what it was, mayhaps you're failing to really read a lot of the members of the LimpSam site for who they are and how they REALLY feel about Dean?! What I put in asterisks above...maybe that applies to you too? Just consider that, before you put all us LimpSam members down collectively.
Yes, taking things out of context does happen, as I evidenced with that particular TWoP post. So why is it that my assertion that you were possibly making that very mistake concerning the Sam-board comments you cited scoffed at? I again stress that I'm a member of that board and therefore actually TALK to these people, and knowing what I know and having seen what I've seen of the character and conduct of the members of the LimpSam forum - and yes, I'm talking in regards to how they feel/talk about Dean overall, since that's what you're addressing - I'm pretty darn sure that when it comes to that mistake, I definitely don't have the market cornered. I again say that if Dean-bashing was the norm or even CLOSE to the norm at the Sam-forum, if they hated Dean and wanted him off the show like a select few out there hate Sam so much as to want him off the show...I WOULD NOT BE THERE. I don't rule out character criticism. But I DO NOT do character-bashing or hate when it comes the brothers or any other important characters - didn't even take part in the big RuBela riot back in S3...back then I still trusted Kripke unconditionally! - and ESPECIALLY not actor-bashing or hate. NOT. AT. ALL. And seriously don't enjoy hanging around those who DO engage frequently in that type of thing, either, especially when it comes to the brothers and Jared and Jensen.
And saying that my want for brother-equality on both sides is nothing but lipservice? Is belittling and highly unappreciated. First of all, the posts where Sam fans have stated multiple times that we do NOT want Dean's storylines to be lessened for the gain of Sam's, but merely for Sam to get a little more attention ALONG with Dean, that I was referring to with that "stressing and stressing" comment WERE NOT posts at the LimpSam forum...I was talking about the posts HERE, on THIS blog. Being that you went on to slam LimpSam some more in response to my "stressing and stressing" comment instead of mentioning one thing about the posts here, it's pretty obvious you thought I was talking about posts at LimpSam. And guess what that means? That's right! You turned right around and took one of my statements OUT OF CONTEXT after you laughed at me for doing the SAME THING! So hey, looks like YOU would know about that too, huh? Seems nobody's perfect or infallible when it comes to that mistake. "Heh!" right back at'cha!
And FYI, I have seen that wish for simple equality expressed SEVERAL times at the LimpSam forum, I've expressed it myself, I've engaged in multiple conversations about it! So even if I WAS talking about LimpSam in my "stressing and stressing" comment, you STILL don't have all the facts.
But to speak for myself alone, cuz apparently that's necessary too, I don't know how many times I have to say that the BROTHERS and their BOND is what makes this show for me, not Dean only, not Sam only. You could't even HAVE a show without one or the other! But nearly just as important as both brothers being there, is a BALANCE, and right now, it is extremely UNBALANCED. Not just a little, EXTREMELY. The brother-bond has been all-but eclipsed by all the epicness and secondary characters, both boys' characterizations are off even with all they've been through, and Sam's storyline is struggling...you can argue against that all you want, but like Josie said, the validity and growing popularity of the viewpoint isn't negated! Must be something more to it, then, I'd say, than just pure and petty whining!
I DO want equality, plain and simple, and don't DARE tell me that deep down I don't, that it's all empty words or some kind of charade. I know what I've expressed on the LimpSam boards, on the former TVG.com boards, ANYWHERE AND EVERYWHERE I've been...and that is a sincere want for things to be balanced again, for the brothers to act more like brothers again than strangers, on Dean's part, on Sam's part, on BOTH their parts, and to be written as such - lest we forget Dean and Sam are fictional and can't do the acting without the writing, hee. What more can I say? It seems you don't believe me, and you certainly don't give an ounce of credit to ANYONE on the LimpSam forum, so I could always get some of my entirely bi-bro/Dean-girl blogging buddies from former TVG.com over here to vouch for my honest want for aforementioned equality, and that I don't just care about/love only Sam, but Dean AS WELL - and believe me, they'd come right over - but I like to show more maturity than that of a five year-old, and I'm too sick of your catch-all slams/attacks against ppl I consider friends that I wouldn't dare bring them into this.
And I've wasted time again. I could argue with people like you ALL NIGHT on these same things and you still wouldn't budge an inch, and though I'll AT LEAST make apologies/concede to indisputable facts when necessary, neither will I budge overall...so forget it. I need to go to bed, got somewhere to be in the morning and more important people to see. Cuz really, who are you when it comes to this article? You're not Kripke, you're not Sera Gamble, you're not Alice Jester, and we've gotten our points across loud and clear to her, so...why waste all this time and energy arguing with someone who in the end is just another fan stuck on their own perspectives, however much skewed, who's only gonna find something in your posts to tear down and tell you you're wrong about, no matter what you say and how honestly you say it. It's more often than not futile, and pointless, and only creates more bad feelings and hostility, so I for one am seriously done doing it. That's the way I ultimately feel, and you may feel the same way, or may not...fine by me either way. Best thing to do in cases like this is just agree to disagree.
And that's what I do from here on out, when it comes to your type and your, IMO, skewed perspectives. Stringently so. And you can rip apart sections of my post (again) or why not the entire thing, or heck, you can up the ante and personally slam me, call me a nasty name/horrible person, a liar, an idiot, a waste of space, a nutjob, whatever you want...cuz though I don't think you would and HOPE you wouldn't take it that far, I don't freakin' care if you do. Cuz when it's all said and done, I know where I stand and that I'm telling it like it is, those who actually know me - unlike you - do as well, and my comments were heard and appreciated by the only person on this blog who actually has access to Sera...so really, what more needs to be known/said than that?
Goodnight ladies and gents, it's been a trip!
103 - Amanda (MysticKitty)
One last thing...Xiang?
GREAT, GREAT post. Totally agreed on all points! :-)
NOW, goodnight!
104 - Erika
"I, for one, am thrilled that the writers are finally letting Dean's character develop beyond his self-esteem issues. He is a good person and deserves to be allowed to be more than just an extension of Sam and to see himself as having more worth than just being The Big Brother."
And why on earth doesn't Sam have self-esteem issues, too? He doesn't have any worth now outside of being Dean's brother. Sam has basically become Dean's Dean, yet unlike Dean, he gets no notice or credit for this. Sam has crushed his insides down for the past 3 seasons in order to help Dean with his various issues, some of which Sam shares, yet Sam is not allowed the kinds of scenes/dialogue/episodes/Very Special Episodes About What a Hero He Is that Dean gets.
The problems with Sam's character come directly from poor writing, poor attention, and poor plotting. Sam fans have been upset about Sam's characterisation since season 2 and yet the only changes the show makes are to give even more to Dean at Sam's expense. And at this point, it is very clearly happening in ways that hurt Sam and keep viewers from knowing him.
Kripke lets an entire 16 episodes go by and couldn't fit any of Sam's story into that, yet even now, he finds time for the lame and unfunny Ghostfacers, and numerous other comedy episodes, which are always my least favorite episodes of the show. If Kripke cared, he would put Sam first, ahead of lame high-concept crap, and deal with his storyline directly for once. If it's related to Sam, it is background material. If it's related to Dean, it is foreground material. I hate this so much!
Dean gets plenty of plot, always has. Sam, not so much. Even with the mytharc in season 2, that turned out to be a supporting plot point in the Epic Story of Dean the Hero. Sam's only purpose that season was to die so Dean could make his epic self-sacrifice for him and take up the rest of the series with it. Dean has had a huge amount of plotting in his name, mytharc or no mytharc. Sam is treated like garbage on this show, he simply is. And seeing that does make me like Dean less. I'm Deaned out, frankly, and am bored with it all. Now, if Sam had similar episodes, I'd take it all in stride, but he doesn't. Sam is window dressing now, and I find it beyond unbearable. I'm not alone, either. New fans may have come into the show, but I wouldn't be surprised if some older ones start bleeding out.
Who, What, Why, Where, When. Should be easy to get, right? Writing 101. Apparently Sam doesn't get this courtesy from the Supernatural writing team, at least not in ways that actually show up ON SCREEN for the viewer to see and feel. I still watch Supernatural, and likely will continue watching the show, but I was never really satisfied with Sam's treatment and at this point, know I never will be. If this is a show about TWO brothers, then I'd rate Kripke and Co. at 50% failure and if Sam was really supposed to be Luke Skywalker, I'd rate their failure level at 75%. And I think I'm being kind in my assessment.
And thanks for the article, I actually do like Sera Gamble. At least she knows who Jared is!
105 - cassi
AWESOME ARTICLE ALICE!!!
I just love it how good and interesting your interviews are and as soon as I saw the thing about Castiel on the first page I was thrilled because this has been the first Castiel spoiler since Misha mentioned that there will be more episodes with Castiel in the second half of the season. So thanks for providing happiness for a lot of Castiel fans! love ya!!!
I'm looking forward to the second part of your interview because compared with others your questions are always the best and most interesting!
I love season 4 and of course, I have a with issues (Ruby, Sam's pove etc.) but so far season 4 just rocks and I'm enjoying the episodes!
Can't wait for Thursday!!!
PS: I just wish somebody else would say something about the Kristin eonline (brother) spoiler so that we would know if it's true or not! So far everyone just quotes her and that's not really reliable! :(
106 - Edith
Wow. First of all, I'm not touching the Sam Fans vs. Dean Fans stuff or the board vs. board stuff. Yikes. Also...don't care.
Secondly, thank you to Alice for the interview and especially to Sera Gamble, for taking a hard line on the issue of rape. I wish they would have found a different way to show Sam at rock bottom, but since they decided to have the Sam/Ruby sex, thank goodness it was made clear that Ruby was the only one in that body. It might have been a bit labored to show the audience that, but if they hadn't done that, the character Sam would have been ruined for me forever.
Oh, and thank you Sera for calling Sam a hero. That was nice to read.
Regarding characterization, I've been watching since the pilot. I love both brothers. I do have to agree that Sam has been shortchanged somewhat as regards to telling the audience what's in his head. For the longest time I thought it was because we were supposed to wonder about Sam. Who or what is he? But it's gone on too long and now it's to the point where I really want to understand him. We've never been inside his head like we have Dean's. When Dean died twice (In My Time of Dying and No Rest for the Wicked) we as viewers followed his spirit and know what happened to him. We still have no idea about where Sam went when he died and probably will never know. Demons and angels are constantly psychoanalyzing Dean, Sam not so much. Ruby did a little and that's about it. Dean shares his personal history and feelings with guest characters all the time (Gordon, Jo, Henricksen, Rufus, Castiel, etc., etc., etc.), Sam tends to keep quiet. Oh he does share sometimes, but not very often, especially these last few years. Dean seems to break down once or twice a season and have long soliloquies on the hood of the Impala or over John's grave or Sam's body, and Sam? Not so much. He did a little in Houses of the Holy and Fresh Blood (THANK YOU Sera!) but other than that I can't think of any.
I don't mean to say that we shouldn't have had those episodes where we saw Dean's dreams and nightmares, or he had those long soliloquies, or he shared his thoughts and feelings, I think they were wonderful. It's just that I think it's high time to see more of them for Sam so I can understand him better. That's all. I realize Sam is different than Dean and won't share in the same way, but could he share in a Sam-like way? And by the way, the idea that he's about "sharing and caring" is ridiculous. He's like a book with the pages glued shut. Dean had to hit him to get him to talk this year.
Finally, I really wish that the show would acknowledge that John and Mary are Sam's parents. Ever since the beginning of Season Two it's like Sam is the lost Winchester child. I find it difficult to believe that Sam's lifelong issues with John dried up after the beginning of Season Two. Heck, Sam even seems cool with the idea that John was prepared to kill him. As far as Mary goes, I as a viewer have more of a connection to her than her younger son does. On a show like Supernatural there has to be ways for Sam to get to really meet and interact with his mother. They've done it for Dean twice now. I'm sure In The Beginning was a wonderful episode, but I could hardly stand to watch it. Sam is Mary's son too. Yet Dean was the only one who was able to go back in time and see his parents again and meet his grandparents. Dean is the only one who saw the whole saga unfold. Does Sam even know his mother unwittingly traded him away to save his father? Was the reaction off-screen? As someone who has waited since the episode Home to see Sam find out why Mary apologized to her younger son I'm bitterly disappointed to find out that this might be the only payoff to that I'll ever get. I know Dean has issues with his parents but I would think Sam does too. Although I'd never know it watching the show. It's like the Winchester family has shrunk to John, Mary, and Dean with Sam on the outside. They don't even let the poor guy look in. That breaks my heart.
I love Dean too and I think it's great that he has a big role in the mytharc. I'm excited to see what it is. But now that Dean is central in the mytharc, could we get have deep characterization episodes for Sam that Dean used to get when Sam was central? I guess I figure it doesn't hurt to ask. Someone said above that we've gotten characterization for Sam but we don't like what we've gotten, but I'd have to disagree. When I truly understand where Sam is coming from, his thoughts, feelings, and motivation and don't have to guess, then I'll agree. I might not like what I find out, but I'd like to know. When we get an episode like What is and What Should Never Be for Sam, or Dream a Little Dream, or any ENTIRE episode that really delves into his issues or who he is or what he belies, then I'll agree. Mystery Spot is as close as we have come to that, and that showed us a facet of Sam--scary obsessiveness and determination, but there's more to him than that. Much more.
Thanks to all the writers for the work they do. It can't be easy to please the fans, as witnessed by the responses. I am one who is disappointed by what we've gotten for Sam, but hey, not my show, not my character, and if the writers prefer to focus on Dean's psyche instead of Sam, their choice. That's the way it goes.
107 - Charli
Thankyou Alice. Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou. Even if the writers never hear how upset and sad lots of us Sam fans are with how these seasons have gone then at the very least i thank you for listening to us.
I am another upset Sam fan.
Any fan can see how clearly focussed on Dean this season and last has been, my friend who's the ultimate Dean girl watched all the episodes back to back with me the other day and at the end she turned to me and was like 'wow this season is REALLY Dean centric isn't it?'
Those fans who can watch the show not expecting their character to get every single bit of screentime can clearly see how unfair this season has been to Sam.
I miss him so much. I miss the character I still adore more than any other and he has been criminally underused this season. It's just been a travesty.
I can only imagine the uproar if Dean was treated to this, his fans try to pull the whole S1 was Sam centric and you know what I'll let them have the fact that Sam was given a STORYLINE in season one, but Dean was always ALWAYS prevalent from the get go, hell episode three was pretty much a Dean episode from the get go so there you go, straight away he was never sidelined as they liked to assume.
Sam's been horribly sidelined lately and I viciously despise that. It's really making me hate the show and I fail to see how the writers are not noticing that. And the things is I really don't know how they rectify this, because even if they thought yeah we'll make the first 12 episodes about Dean and the last part about Sam I fail to see how that will impress anybody. The hideous Dean girl extremists with their 'i hope sam is replaced...' mentality that none of us Sam girls have about Dean will harp on forever about how sidelined DEAN has then become. I fail to see why with only two main characters they couldn't focus equally on both boys.
It's depressing as hell and I thank you for listening to us. Because many, many, many fans I know are terribly unhappy with all this. Believe me those people are not alone.
108 - MarGWan
I'm a Dean girl through and through and that being said I couldn't agree more with Sam fans.
He's been non existant this season and I'm angry on his and his fans behalf and on this Dean fans behalf, I'm not stupid enough not to see that Dean's been having all the story this season.
And as a Dean fan, I'm not loving it if I'm honest.
109 - Josie
I've seen a couple of comments stating that Kripke said he put Sam's stories aside during season three. I haven't seen that statement before, so I would like some clarification from those who did.
Did Kripke say this before or AFTER the writer's strike? Because if this was after...well, I can't blame him. They had to finish the season, and they had three episodes to do it (I'm fairly certain that the "Ghostfacers" script was at least half-written before the strike began). Everything that wasn't completely essential to the main plot point--will Dean go to Hell or not--had to go.
I understand why some fans may feel Sam has been neglected this season, but season 3 probably shouldn't be cited as an example of character neglect. The writer's strike threw a wrench into everything.
It's just something to consider.
110 - Erika
I wanted to add that I know fans of the show who like Sam and are all but dropping it now, or are close to replacing it with Terminator, a show that is more about family than Supernatural could ever be. I guess I'm just disappointed that my big hook for the show, the brother's relationship, was the biggest lie of the show. I feel ripped off, frankly. I've gotten the DVDs for season 2 and 3 of the show, and I still haven't bothered watching either one all the way through. I just don't have the heart. And this season is the worst of all, just a massive massive disappointment.
And Kripke wants to add a third brother, when he can't even write for two? I feel sick, absolutely sick.
I've watched shows through my disappointment before, so it's not a matter of me simply dropping it and moving on. I just feel sad that I'm obsessed enough with what I've gotten of Sam Winchester that I can't leave the show even if he's only there for 40 seconds.
I knew Sam was going to get burned at ComicCon, when Kripke totally ignored Sam and Jared to promote Dean in Lazerus Rising. And the two names Kripke never even says in public, let alone praises? Sam and Jared. It's like they don't exist to him anymore. And if they do, it's awfully hard to tell. That's not how you promote a show about two brothers, two main characters, two leads. But maybe he doesn't think of the show as a two man show anymore. I don't care what his excuse is for this behavior, I just know that it hurts me to the core.
What also hurts? Sam is my biggest emotional pull into the show, the one I truly relate to, and when Kripke sidelines Sam, he is sidelining me. I can't relate to Dean all that well, and all the great acting, script time, and Very Special Episodes About How Hard and Heroic it is to be Dean have not changed that one whit. It is actually making me pull away from Dean emotionally, because I can't buy it anymore. So now, I feel shut off from both Sam and Dean, both brothers, and that was my main source of joy on the show. What am I getting this season? Zero Joy.
The things the writers could give to Sam are so simple and obvious, and that is what really hurts. They aren't remotely trying, and if they are trying, they certainly aren't succeeding. All Sam needs are scenes, actual dialogue, interactions with guest stars, and interactions with characters who are supposedly all about him who actually interact with him. So far, all the bad guys after Sam, only talk to Dean and ignore Sam. All the season finales are about Dean, to the exclusion of Sam, because Sam is only good enough to plaster on a wall and be left to dangle. They won't let Sam take action on anything related to himself, let alone anyone else. Heroes DO, Heroes take action, Heroes get the chance to be heroic. So far, all I've seen is a show where only Dean is treated like a someone who matters, like he's a hero, like he's a Chosen One. Sam has never, ever, had the red carpet rolled out for him like Dean has this season. I mean, how many more episodes are we going to get with Dean mueling and puking about how hard and sad it is for HIM to be a hero? How many other characters will only talk to Dean, and exclude Sam from their dealings? It is hugely, hugely frustrating to watch, because I'm a genre whore, I watch shows about heroes all the time, and the way Sam has been treated on this show is shameful.
My biggest worry is that Supernatural will become emotionally hollow. The stop-the-apocolypse plot is pretty much a routine plot, and unless it truly involves BOTH Sam and Dean, I'm not gonna care how it ends.
And in regards to Sam, the difficulty is that his story is treated like background information and not like it truly matters in the day to day. This has been my biggest problem watching the show, the biggest frustration. Dean gets a new plot each season, each building on the season before it. But Sam? Sam? He'll get one line, one line about his story, and it is left at that for one to two seasons, with no pay off! It's unbelievably bad writing to me, just horrible! And some fans will complain about Sam even getting that one line about himself! That's the kind of fandom this is! Sam gets four episodes a season, while Dean gets all the rest, and somehow this is considered even-handed and equal? On what planet? It's utterly ridiculous!
Kripke and the other writers need to do their jobs and monitor how Sam and Dean's arcs pan out, and they simply aren't doing this. I consider this bad show running, plain and simple. And if Sam needs something fixed, for heaven's sake, fix it, don't leave it like Kripke left Sam's daddy issues. Remember those? Sam had more issues than Dean did in season 1, yet they magically disappeared as soon as John died, and Sam wasn't even given a grief arc. I guess this is the moment the show stopped being about family and about brothers.
111 - Lulu
"I'm very pleased to see Sam fans be so vocal here, because it's one of the few places I've seen this. I too believe his character has been underexplored, but this is the first time I've seen outrage over it. That makes me rather happy, because my attempts to get discussions going about Sam previously have failed."
I'm honestly baffled by this comment Alice because I have seen these exact same posts by the same few Sam fans all over the internet. I've seen them at TWoP, SN.TV, TVGuide Online, E!Online, Ausiello's blog at EW, and at pretty much any blog that discusses the show including the CW Source, BuddyTV, SFUniverse, TVAddict and a whole host of other lesser known sites.
Honestly it's gotten to the point where this is the only discussion I see about the show anymore so if Kripke & Co. read any sites, then they are well aware of the "concerns" of these fans. And regardless of the claims of this small cadre of Sam fans, they have not been quietly suffering, they have been bitching and complaining about something or other since Devil's Trap.
Of course the Deanfans have also been complaining (and that annoys me too sometimes,) but I'm just pointing out this notion that Sam fans are somehow invisible or have just been politely suffering in silence, is complete and utter crap and part of their little propaganda campaign.
That campaign, btw, started early in season 1 when they first tried to demonize Jensen Ackles in a variety of ways, in an attempt to boost the popularity of Sam and Jared. When that didn't work, they moved on to the Jensen/Dean fans. The truth is that both sides have their "extremist fans" and everyone knows who they are.
The Sam vs. Dean stuff is unfortunately an entrenched part of this fandom and both have their agenda to promote their guy, apparently at the expense of the other, judging by the comments I've seen. I believe and hope that Krikpe and his staff take all this stuff with huge bag-fulls of road salt and continue to tell the story they want to tell the way they want to tell it.
112 - The real MarGWan
The person above using the name MarGwan is clearly a Sam fan trying to impersonate my screenname. The REAL MarGwan completely disagrees with what she wrote.
['Real' MarGWan, I don't see how you can say this since there were no comments previously posted under that name, either from your IP address or that of the person you accuse. However, I do notice that both of you are using multiple screen names, which is frowned upon at Blogcritics. Please desist, or you will both be banned.
Thank you,
Dr Dreadful
Assistant Comments Editor]
Sam has been treated just fine by the writers. Maybe the real problem is that it's not acted memorably. Rather like Ruby has had twice as much screen time, this season alone, than Castiel yet Castiel is the one who has had the biggest effect. If Castiel seems like he's been around more, it's because his actor has made a bigger impression.
Just because you don't LIKE what they've shown you about Sam does not mean he has not been been given plenty of character development. Not to mention he got 3 seasons where the mytharc was completely his alone.
I've loved Dean's inclusion, it's given the whole storyline a much needed kick in the pants. The enhanced critical acclaim and ratings show this. I don't feel Sam has been cheated at all. There were 3 comedy episodes during Dean's supposed "focus" episodes. Sam's been allowed to save the day numerous times.
The writers have done everything they can to soft pedal any critical areas with regards to Sam. He has a sex with a demon but she's practically FDA certified.
They didn't put a single argument in Dean's mouth in Metamorphosis that couldn't be easily knocked down like the straw men they were by Sam's wonderfully logical and humanitarian viewpoint, plus they had him punch him, twice. They couldn't have done more to make Sam sympathetic and superior to Dean. They keep calling Dean a racist for not being more accepting of demonically influenced powers and "good" demons, even ones like Ruby who were perfectly happy to have him die last season.
Sam's been mollycoddled and built up to a ridiculous degree but the Samfans still aren't happy.
113 - Aithne414
"I'm a Dean girl through and through and that being said I couldn't agree more with Sam fans.
He's been non existant this season and I'm angry on his and his fans behalf and on this Dean fans behalf, I'm not stupid enough not to see that Dean's been having all the story this season.
And as a Dean fan, I'm not loving it if I'm honest."
Why, hello there, Charly! Pleasure to see you here... but why on Earth are you pretending to be Mar-g-wan? I talk to her on a regular basis, and she doesn't feel this way at ALL.
Maybe you should just post under your own name, darlin. Your writing style is distinctive enough that you're easily recognized as yourself... and this kind of tactic is not only stupid and obvious, but it's kind of embarrassing to any Supernatural fan with a shred of integrity.
114 - Anna
"The argument is that if push comes to shove and Dean is forced to choose a side (either/or situation), it is Sam that he'll most likely to choose. Of course that still means that Dean will try to look for other alternative solutions first. It is not in Dean's character to abandon in the middle of the apocalypse war. But the moment Uriel takes action against Sam, I can imagine Dean will go "screw the apocalpse"."
Ah, I did misunderstand the argument. I thought that you meant it was out of character for Dean not to shove everything he's going through aside in order to coddle Sam and protect his feelings. I do agree that Dean would fight Uriel if he tried to kill Sam.
"But I haven't seen Dean move past his self-esteem issue. For example in Are you there God, he still doesn't see how special he is."
I simply cannot imagine that a person with normal, healthy self-esteem would react any differently. I mean... someone's pulled out of Hell by God, in order to perform some task. NO ONE would buy that immediately, or think they deserved it, unless they were extremely arrogant.
I don't think that was an issue of self-esteem at all. And as for "deserving" to be saved, Dean tortured people in Hell. Of course he wouldn't think he deserved saving. But again, that's not about his old self-esteem issues... that's about someone performing horrific actions and not being able to immediately accept forgiveness. Again, that's quite normal.
115 - The Real MarGwan
['Real' MarGWan, I don't see how you can say this since there were no comments previously posted under that name, either from your IP address or that of the person you accuse. However, I do notice that both of you are using multiple screen names, which is frowned upon at Blogcritics. Please desist, or you will both be banned.
Thank you,
Dr Dreadful
Assistant Comments Editor]
I didn't say I had used it here before(although I do believe I have, but it was along time ago), but it is well-known in certain areas as a Dean fan name and I know that is why the person using it did that, that people would say "Hey if even she, Dean fanatic that she is thinks that". It's highly unlikely someone else would come up with the exact same screen name indepedently when it's based on something specifically personal to me.
And how many usernames are all these other people using? I know I only posted once previously in this particular thread, but obviously I have posted in others. Because I can assure, by writing style alone, that many posts are made by people using different screen names.
Which was exactly the point of my post, Alice says she's going to pass on what she's heard but how much of what she's passing on is by the same people using different usernames?
Are you going to tell THEM to cease and desist? Are you going to ban them? I hope so. Or maybe you should make the comments only by people who have signed up rather than everyone.
116 - Rachel
Okay, now we're fighting about screen names? That's too much for even me!
117 - Alice Jester
Thank you Dr. Dreadful for keeping on top of things! I must say, this is not typical behavior for this fandom. I'm pretty shocked by all this.
Part 2 is on hold until tomorrow or Tuesday so everyone's tempers can come down a little. I guarantee part 2 will be much milder and more generic, and hopefully a real treat for the fans of the show. It will not fuel the Sam screentime controversy or the Sam vs. Dean debate.
Also, I have started a meta analysis on Sam's character development for the entire series (I already did one for Season Three) and will publish it on an undetermined day after "Family Remains" airs on Thursday. The main focus now is the return of the show. Keep in mind the analysis will be fair minded and will try to address many of the valid concerns posted here. No comments in support of Sam will come at expense of Dean and vice versa.
118 - tash
Its completely awesome to see so many Sam fans speaking up about their disappointment in Sam's characterisation over the last few seasons. Its particularly bad this season but has been an ongoing problem. I would like to think that the writing for Sam this season has been a deliberate strategy from the writers but even if it has its still hurting Sam and it has gone on to long. We know the writers can get into Sam's head when they want to. I don't believe the lack of Sam characterisation is because Sam is to introverted, that is just a handy excuse. There are ways around that. I have got to the point where I believe its because Kripke just doesn't care about Sam (or sam fans) anymore.
We have had a big increase in viewers this season. With the way Sam has been written do you think these new people know he is supposed to be one of the lead heros on this show? Do they sympathise with Sam? Do they think the show is about Dean with Jared being supporting actor to Jensen? I wonder if it puzzles them that Jared has top billing when it seems apparant that Jensen is the star of the show? Can they have any real understanding as to the depth of Dean's love for Sam based on how Dean is being written now? Or Sam's desparate love for Dean based on how unconcerned he was in Yellow Fever. The brotherly bond has all but disappeard and Sam with it.
This show use to give me a great deal of pleasure but this season, despite my love for it still the pleasure is gone. Episode after episode I am so disappointed that once again Dean is at the forefront and Sam relegated to sidekick. I enjoy Dean but I miss Sam and I really miss SamnDean. Its hurting the show for me and while I don't think I am at the point of walking away I can now see that point in the future and I never ever before though it would come to this.
Spoilers show that the trend is set to continue. I know sides don't always pan out like you expect but it a sad fact for Sam fans that these days low expectations are always met but not ever exceeded.
I can't fathom anyone believing that the show this season so far has not been almost exclusively Dean centric. And forget about screentime i am talking of story focus. Dean is the chosen one, he is the one of interest too both sides now, Sam has Ruby and nothing else. With every other reaccuring character attatched mostly to Dean's story how can the rest of the season play out as anything other than Dean centric? There is a rift opening up between Sam fans and Kripke, he is trying our patience way beyond what is reasonable and he needs to remember that Sam has fans also. I have almost totally lost faith in the man and I don't trust him at all to do right by Sam now. I want him to prove me wrong.
Finally just a quick comment about TWOP - yes it is heavily moderated but not in terms of what is said about a character, you can basically say any sly nasty thing you want as long as it doesn't go boards on boards. The Sam hate there is epic on some of the threads. Sure these posters write well, they are very adept at getting their Sam hate across without breaking the rules. And while there may be Sam fans there they are pretty quiet and stick to the threads that are not populated by the fans that hate Sam.
119 - tash
Alice after all that rambling I forgot to say thank you for the great interview with Sera. And for giving people a place to discuss this. I really look forward to reading your article on Sam. Thanks again!
120 - tash
""Hey if even she, Dean fanatic that she is thinks that"."
I think you will find that there are plenty of Dean fans that do feel that Sam has been neglected. Ones that don't also dislike Sam of course. I have read comments on forums and LJ's from many Dean fans missing Sam and lamenting his lack of charactersiation this season. If you want to see some just go to Kroki-Refurs episode two Review of Doom and you will see what I mean. And that was back at episode two. The situation has only gotten worse and lots of Dean fans still feel this way.
121 - Missy
"I wonder if it puzzles them that Jared has top billing when it seems apparant that Jensen is the star of the show?"
Hm. I'm not puzzled by that, simply because I always assumed that the "top billing" thing was just a matter of Jared's management being more aggressive. I always thought of the brothers as co-leads. Do you feel that Dean isn't supposed to be a co-lead?
"And while there may be Sam fans there they are pretty quiet and stick to the threads that are not populated by the fans that hate Sam."
Which threads would those be? Sam fans post in the episode threads, the spoilers thread, the brotherly bonds thread, the regular media thread, the online media thread, the ratings thread... which threads do Sam fans not post in, aside from the Dean and Jensen threads?
"The hideous Dean girl extremists"
How very charming.
"First of all, the posts where Sam fans have stated multiple times that we do NOT want Dean's storylines to be lessened for the gain of Sam's, but merely for Sam to get a little more attention ALONG with Dean, that I was referring to with that "stressing and stressing" comment WERE NOT posts at the LimpSam forum...I was talking about the posts HERE, on THIS blog. Being that you went on to slam LimpSam some more in response to my "stressing and stressing" comment instead of mentioning one thing about the posts here, it's pretty obvious you thought I was talking about posts at LimpSam."
Incorrect. Read more carefully. I knew that you were talking about the posts here, which is why I said this:
"What you say when you think no one's listening is far, far more indicative of your mindset than any lipservice you pay here to wanting equality."
That means that although I know you all have paid lipservice to the idea of equality HERE, because you know people are reading your posts, I glean more about your true feelings from reading the posts that you DON'T think anyone is reading... ie, the posts at your Sam board.
122 - tash
Missy my comment about Jared having top billing does not mean that I don't think of Jensen as a colead, of course the guys are supposed to be coleads, just that new viewers would not know that based on what we have this season. And whatever the reason Jared does have top billing though it would be much more accurate nowadays for Jensen to do so. Its certainly not like they are being treated as co leads now.
Why assume its lipservice when Sam fans say they want equality? Because you are maybe projecting? I would be thrilled with equality.
123 - Missy
As I've said, tash, it's lipservice because I've read what some of these guys post at their own board, where they don't have to kiss up to Alice (in the hopes that she'll send their comments in to Sera) or for fans who aren't necessarily hardcore Sam fans.
"Missy my comment about Jared having top billing does not mean that I don't think of Jensen as a colead, of course the guys are supposed to be coleads, just that new viewers would not know that based on what we have this season."
But if the guys are coleads, Jared will never be treated as the sole top billed star... he'll always be treated as equal to Jensen. I'm personally just fine with that, because I think the characters should be equally important.
I guess I'm just saying that if you expect Jared to be treated like the sole top-billed star, and Jensen to be treated like the second-billed, I think it's a surefire recipe for disappointment. I think most people involved in the show don't really look at it that way.
124 - tash
"I guess I'm just saying that if you expect Jared to be treated like the sole top-billed star, and Jensen to be treated like the second-billed, I think it's a surefire recipe for disappointment. I think most people involved in the show don't really look at it that way. "
Clearly I am not expressing myself very well. I do agree that Jared and Jensen should be treated as co leads, they are not. Jensen seems to be the star of the show, Jared seems in a supporting position. Co leads is what they are and how they should be treated. No argument at all from me about that. Its just not what is happening.
125 - Mel(LoveJeter)
Thanks for doing this interview Alice and thanks to Sera for taking the time out to answer the questions. I can't wait to read part 2. IMO the first half of the season didn't disappoint and I can't wait til the second half and all that it may have in store!!!