Sera talks about the introduction of angels to the mythology, Castiel, Dean’s faith issues, and Sam and Ruby's strange relationship.
A seven-week hiatus can be rather maddening. Given Supernatural’s explosive season four and the mind-boggling material that’s been presented for ten episodes, this long time to reflect has left me with more questions than answers. I’m sure I’m not alone.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Mel(LoveJeter)
Thanks for doing the interview Alice and thanks to Sera for taking the time to answer questions. Can't wait for part 2.
27 - Dair
Thanks so much for the interview Alice! I'm looking forward to part two.
I don't believe for one second though that Sera was already thinking about Sam and Ruby having sex as being rape as she was writing the episode. If she had, I don't see why she went ahead with it, and then having to have this whole lame explanation, instead of just leaving it out. Why NOT have Sam self-mutilate instead? It would have been more logical, easier, and more dramatic on film. She could even still have had Jared take his shirt off.
Oh, I forgot, it's not SEX! Must have the SEX, right Sera?
They should have dropped Ruby and had another Demon come and help Sam. The Ruby of this season in NO way resembles the Ruby of season 3 (and I don't mean physically). So why make her the same character?
At any rate, I'm really tired of her and I hope they get rid of the character SOON! They don't need her for the 'save at the last minute' plot device now that they have Castiel, and he is a much better character.
28 - Akira14
Thank you for this interview, Alice ;) ! I'd like to say to Amanda (MysticKitty) that though I don't agree completely, I'm very happy to read someone complaining about Sam being on the sidelines without being offensive to Dean and his storyline... I really hope that the show is gonna regain its balance - even without the MOTW theme, because it's impossible to go back to that formula if the show ends in a season and a half (5.22, I mean) - and that the fact that Sam storyline is "writing itself" doesn't mean he will be the sidekick to Dean's ;)
Love what they're doing with Castiel, so I'm pleased to read there will be more him *__*
But please... Don't make Ruby the redeemed good demon/Sam's groupie çç ! It had been bad enough to see a potential good character (Anna) being ruined by being another angel (two weren't enough) who slept with Dean so to play on the the fact that Sam fucked the good demon and Dean did it with the bad angel...
29 - yumi
I have trouble with the Ruby sex scene as well too. Not because Sam is having sex with a demon, but because the way Sera tried to work around it. Either you go full out and make it totally dark (the raping)(I think that actually would be even more effective than the necrophilia deal) or don't do it at all. If you have to bend backward to make it morally acceptable,if the mechanics are contrived and silly, then why still do it? Because you need a provocative sex scene during sweep months??? There are other effective ways to show Sam's state of mind. SPN fans are mature and intelligent viewers, who hold the show at higher standard than gratuious sex scences and scandalous love interests/hookups, no matter how hot Jared or Jensen looks naked.
What does Sera mean by "it kinda writes itself, right?" Plots and story lines are not the show's strength. The main attraction of the show is characterization of Sam and Dean, perhaps because back in season 1 there were no real emphasis on story lines - just the introduction of the main characters - two guys, being brothers, finding dad and hunting. And come season 4, where the show needs to go to the next step, it falls apart. I doubt that Kripke has a 5 yr plan (considering how he had said earlier that there would be no angels, no scoobydoo gang, no love interests, just two brothers). Look at the show now, Castiel, Uriel, Ruby,(who should have stayed gone in Season 3 finale), Anna and who knows how many other dopplegangers (more angels, long-lost bothers, love interests???)for the rest of the season. It is getting crowded. I think the apocalypse and introduction of Castiel were interesting concept, but it's getting too epic and the writers can't get out of it properly. I don't want a repeat of Heroes season 3 muddled mess. The writers need to refocus and critically, objectively assess the storylines and the show's writing and direction (incl. being lean and mean with unnecessary, trivial plotlines / characters and bad actors/actresses) because the story doesn't write itself. Season 4 has been lots of miss for me. Even the characterization of Sam and Dean are off. And yes, I do take into account what Sam and Dean have been through.
And I don't think I want an episode with Castiel's POV. Or Ruby or anyone else. I barely know what's going on inside Sam's head. I missed Sam, Dean and their interaction.
30 - Heather
Thanks for this interview Alice. I love hearing from Sera!!!
Heather
31 - Alice Jester
Ah, so many interesting comments! Thank you everyone for sharing such passionate opinions. There are many valid viewpoints and well thought out explanations. Allow me to give my two cents on some of the points I’ve read, because I have rather strong opinions myself!
Okay, one thing that everyone needs to remember is that this is a 22 episode season. We haven’t even been through HALF of season four. There is still plenty to come, and DO NOT let spoiler speculation (which is never what it seems) and interview responses be the end all be all for the rest of the season. It’s all second guessing at this point, and I myself won’t judge until the finished product is aired.
Sam’s storyline. As I’ve explained many times, he’s darker, and everything in his character growth is subtle and not very transparent. So far this season has been mytharc heavy, and yes, the focus has been toward Dean. It should, since the guy was in Hell and was pulled out by an angel. That’s major stuff. Now that Dean had time to absorb his trauma, there’s plenty more room for Sam and his growing struggle with his abilities. And yes, like it or not, his relationship with Ruby. She plays a key role in his issues, and has been since early last season.
When Sera said “It writes itself”, she was referring to Sam’s faith issues, NOT Sam’s storyline. I thought she made that clear with the follow up question. Trust me, the writers and producers put careful consideration into what path the brothers take. Their actions more often than not go somewhere.
As for the last two episodes, anyone who writes and pays attention to deep character study would see the greatness of “I Know What You Did Last Summer.” Some people were too distracted by Sam and Ruby and didn’t see why Sam would sink to those levels. I did a rather thorough explanation in my episode review of Sam’s spiral, so for anyone who didn’t see that I suggest reading it. I’ve read more positive comments and reviews for that episode than negative ones, so I have no idea who “most of us” are.
“Heaven and Hell,” even I agree that one was shaky. I wouldn’t take too much stock as to what was presented in one episode though, and let’s see how they run with it. Quite frankly, some interesting possibilities were setup. No more grace in a bottle though please.
As for the missing Sam and Dean brotherly moments, reconnecting has been rather harsh since they both were keeping terrible secrets from each other. Now that they’ve been caring and sharing over the last two episodes, let’s see what happens from there. The next four episodes are stand alone episodes, so with no mytharc there are many chances for some great stuff between them. You know, going back to basics.
It’s become my mantra, and I might close every article with it now. Trust In Kripke! He hasn’t let us down before, so be patient. Long hiatuses drive everyone nuts.
32 - kay
Great interview. Great questions, Alice. Am so excited for the 15th!
33 - Ali
Great interview, Alice! Loved hearing Sera's thoughts on the angels, as that's exactly the way I see them as well (and I was a bit put out by Anna's insistence that they were all cold, unfeeling jerks, considering what I'd already seen of Castiel), and I totally agree with her on how wonderfully the faith questions are turning out. She's right... Jensen is absolutely nailing Dean's conflict about this stuff, and I think the writers are doing a fantastic job of it as well. The comment in The Great Pumpkin, about how it's not that the angels aren't righteous, the difficulty is that they ARE... that was brilliance. Loved it. Evil hath a pleasing shape, and good is often hard and unpleasant, and that's why so many choose to do evil. Nothing but love for this season so far.
34 - Deanna
Alice, I appreciate where you're coming from, but it's hard to trust in Kripke at this point.
"Sam's storyline. As I've explained many times, he's darker, and everything in his character growth is subtle and not very transparent." What's sad is, this has been true since the beginning.
Dean has been given some fantastic moments, plot, whole episodes, a range off characters to intractb with from John to Bobby to Gordon to the women he's been with. Obvious, transparent, talked about, explained, acted character development. Sam's development is mostly supposition on the part of the watcher. And thus, a large and vocal faction of fandom has come to appreciate him so little that they really don't care if he's even part of the show or not. That should really be the red flag, shouldn't it? Neither of the lead characters (when they're both supposedly good guys) is supposed to be hated. They might go through morally ambiguous times, but are ultimately justified or at least explained. But Sam has been hated since as early as "Asylum," "Skin," "Bugs." And the reason is that his actions/thoughts/motivations are seldom explained and even less seldom justified.
Whole scenes go by where Sam literally HAS NO LINES (like the rescue scene in "Benders," to go back to something as early as season 1, let alone eps from this season where he's nto even onscreen). His issues with his father dying were swept under the carpet, there was no fallout from his own death or from BUABS or Mystery Spot, his four months alone while Dean was in hell were glossed over...the list goes on.
Jensen is phenomenal in this role, and Dean is a phenomenal character. I don't ever want him to be one whit less than half the show. But the other half NEEDS to be Jared/Sam. And I'm not talking minutes of airtime--it's quality, not quantity.
Jared's got the chops: we've seen them. And if Kripke and Co. truly care about Sam's character, they'll start making things a little more obvious and transparent and SYMPATHETIC. When I start to see signs of that, I will trust Kripke again. But for now, I am balanced on the edge of Rabid Fan Since Day One Who May Stop Watching Forever. Which breaks my heart.
35 - *bright73
Thank you for the clarification.
The thing is that I do not trust Kripke with Sam. He has admitted that he forgot to show how Sam grieved his father, and with what John did to Sam in those last eps of S1, which was just as unforgivable as what he did to Dean, Sam needed to grieve and not only in the background. John basically told Sam everything was his fault.
Kripke also admitted to dropping all Sam story lines in favor of Dean's in S3, which ended up in Dean getting the Mary storyline in S4. And I still don't know if Sam knows or not that his mother sold him out. If he does and had no reaction to it, that's another dropped storyline.
The Boy King, or Anti-Christ storyline seems dropped, or reduced to the mere power of exorcising demons with his mind.
Sam died and the question was - did he come back right? Another dropped storyline. This year we're mostly seeig Dean's reaction and his story lines. In S1 and 2, Dean had most of the standalones while Sam carried the mytharc. This year Sam has had two episodes where he was featured a little more. Metamorphosis and I Know What you Did Last Summer. But neither of those episodes was truly focused on Sam; there was also Anna and the angels with which Sam has very little to do. Even Lilith, what little we've seen of her, is now tied to Dean's mytharc.
Do I trust Kripke, no! And the fore mentioned are my reasons.
Jared is doing a fabulous job with Sam, keeping him in character in the background, playing him subdued, but with tension simmering under the surface. Kudos to Jared for working with what little he gets. He's fantastic. And I just know he will go far. If Peter O'Toole says he's good, he is good!
The thing is that I do read spoilers, I have to since S3 and I think I will stop watching after 4.15. It's a pity since I used to love Supernatural and the brotherly bond. That bond is as gone as Sam is and angels to not interest me that much.
Well, it was fun while it lasted and I thank you and Sera for the interview and the clarification. I want to thank Sera specially for looking out for Sam's character, she seems to be the only writers that is interested in a more complex character.
36 - Akira14
Thanks for the clarification!
I still trust Kripke, but I don't take every word he says as gold anymore, especially after we've seen how crowded this season has become.
And though Sam has never been a favourite of mine - I think I started to like him at 1.21 -I agree with the previous comments: Sam's character development should be a little less subtle... Using Ruby as a mean to point it out it is unavoidable? Well, I'm okay with that but she doesn't have to be in her fangirlish mode to be by his side?
Though it might have more to do with the way Cortese portrays Ruby than with the writing itself... (maid!Ruby in 4.09 was awesome)
And with the fact that I don't understand why bad guys can't be good just for their own gain, in a magnificent manipulative manner? In a way that it's hard to detect, not in that "I'm smarter than you" attitude Bela had.
I'd love to see that kind of a villain on SPN.
So I keep hoping Ruby has a hidden agenda and turns out to be against the guys in the end.
Despite this comment may sound as really complaining, I still love the show and aside from 4.10 I'm quite pleased with S4 (way more than with S3)
PS: Neither do I know who 'most of us', are. I loved "I Know What You Did Last Summer", even though I pretty much hated "Heaven & Hell"
37 - Yumi
With all the mistakes so far, especially in 4.9 and 4.10, instead of asking me to trust Kripke, he needs to re-earn it first.
38 - LindsayW
Alice, this is your best work yet! Congrats on landing such a huge interview.
I can't wait to read part two. She shed so much light on SN in part one!
39 - Erin
Wonderful interview, Alice, and it makes me feel VERY hopeful and excited about upcoming episodes! :-)
Per the reader wondering about RUBY and Genivive being cast as a "love interest" ... GUYS! Kripke pulling wool over eyes? It's what he does, and he's going to fake out his actors just as much as he fakes out us. ;-)
Anyhow, lots of good stuff without being over spoilery. Thanks so much for sharing, my dear! I look forward to Part 2. :-)
Cheers ~
Erin
40 - tina
The problem is in season 2 Sam became a sl and not a character.
Dean as never deserved the attention he as recieved at the cost of Sam.
Eric Kripke never should of created a show about two brothers if after one season he decided to make it about the one.
Dean deserves his sl,s but so did Sam and his treatment on this show since the second season as left a bad taste .
41 - Alice Jester
I guess it boils down to Sera's comment, Sam takes it all in and tries to make the best of what he's dealt with. He knows he can't control what happens.
Still, after all he's been though, watching Jess die, his dad die, then he dies, then Dean dies (in both "Mystery Spot" and "No Rest For The Wicked")and not seeing any lingering aftermath, one has to wonder how much this boy can take. After a while, I suppose it can be chalked up to lazy writing or blatant character neglect. Either that or Sam's going to have one mother of a breakdown someday.
I'm still going to give the benefit of the doubt to Kripke, for there are 12 episodes left in the season, and a fantastic chance of 22 more next season. It had been hinted in other interviews that we'd find out more about Sam during the time Dean was in Hell throughout the season, so we'll see. Spoilers are rarely complete (I haven't seen any full scripts posted), so I'm not buying into them completely.
Thanks everyone for sharing your concerns! The points are excellent.
42 - Tom
Thanks for the interview. Good questions although the answers were depressing. Even Sara has no real plans for Sam; the second half of the season will apparently be as Samless as the first. I've watched every episode since the pilot, but I'm beginning to find Supernatural uncomfortable to watch since I have to see Padalecki play a supporting role to whatever story Dean and his friends are involved in each week. You would think the producers and writers would have some loyalty to the actor if not to the character Sam.
43 - Suze
Good interview, I'm looking forward to the next bit!
So far I love season 4. The new characters thicken the brew nicely, especially Urial, who's a proper bastard - Respect! I could do without more Anna though, and as for the whole third brother who-ha, I smell a wind-up.
I got the impression from the interview that there was more Sam-based stuff coming, which is great. The Dean-o-centric stories have been terrific but we need filling in on the whole Ruby/Spawn of the Devil thing.
As for Ruby being a love interest - people have sex for all sorts of reasons, they don't have to be all hearts and flowers! Sam was breaking apart and Ruby's got a hidden agenda a mile wide, so I don't really see them picking out curtains at any point soon.
Bring on part 2!
44 - Rachel
Why should I trust in Kripke? He hasn't paid off a single storyline I was interested in since season 1. He hasn't paid any attention to the character I love. He hasn't addressed any of the fans of said character (no, you have to be a fan of Dean for the personalized messages and plot points). So what's the point? I resent the fact that Sera thinks Sam's story writes itself, and that she thinks it's fine to be "subtle" and "not transparent" with him. Because he's "darker" his story must be hidden? What a load of bull. A more complicated character needs MORE attention, not LESS, to figure out. Writing 101. Bottom line: he's story is harder to write, so they don't do it because that would take extra effort and talent and they don't have any to spare.
45 - Rachel
Oh, and there's really not any more Sam stuff coming (there REALLY isn't if you take into account that episodes 16x17 are solely about Dean's mytharc). I would they would stop saying that. They have been peddling this line since season 2, and it never pans out. We always wind up watching Dean cry on the hood of the Impala, and that's it. What we know about Sam's destiny today is what we knew way back in season 2. Which is basically nothing. Because he doesn't have one because Kripke hasn't bothered to come up with it. Again, not trusting the man. He hasn't earned it.
46 - Vera
Yes, I figured the Sam-lessness out after ep 9. 10 was again all about Dean's major trauma and so will 11, 12, and 15 are all Dean focused (yes, spoilers to tell who the story sis about). 13 and 14 are the only eps that will be looking at Sam this second part. But since they are back to back it will not be more than maybe 15 minutes per ep of Sam focus. And 14 will probably have Sam beating up Dean all over and sending him to the hospital. He's always badly hurt or hospitalized, at least once every season. If not outright dead.
Episode 15 hasn't leaked so no characters are needed and that is probably because dean will have a rendevouz with Castiel and Uriel. No way there will be any Sam focus since he had his 15 minutes in 14.
15 - Dean is in mortal peril again and bonding with a kid he identifies with. Seen it before?
Episode 16 will be another 2.20, where Dean is in an AU situation, getting a pep-talk and angsting a bit over his life. Seen that before? Yeah, me too.
The rest is painfully easy to figure out since we know all finales are about Dean, (ep 22) and since Sam has no mytharc this season, 21 will probably be about Kripke's new toy, Castiel. He hasn't angsted enough about leaving hell or not yet.
Kripke himself will write and direct ep 20 and Kripke always writes solely for Dean. I don't think he knows enough about Sam to even write him. Then the Ghostbuster clones will have one ep, so we are left with either 19 and 18 which will be a bi-brotherly ep with focus on Dean since we are nearing the finale.
Rachel is absolutely right, there's no Sam in this season and the writers are saying it loud and clear y ot having any spoilers because there are none! Why do they even bother trying to lie about there being a Sam storyline when there's so evidently isn't? It's like mocking the audience and I don't think that's a smart move. Say it like it is, this is the Dean-show and has been for two and a half season already. I don't get the lying about it at all.
What I also don't get is why they keep Padalecki signed if they have so little money? Kick him and hire the new toy instead! That's economics 101, you don't pay for things that you don't need.
Kripke has the honor of having joined my list of creators that come with a major warning for false marketing. The moment I see his name anywhere near a project, I am switching channels.
47 - Amelie
Alice, if it's not too late, could you please ask Sera about the third brother spoiler? I think, almost to a person, there is not a single long-term fan who would want that (people new to this season wouldn't know the difference, since the amazing Winchester bond has been missing since 4x01).
The waters are so muddied with extra characters already and Kripke's focus on giving all of them backstories (and for the record, I do not care about Castiel or Ruby or Anna's emotional struggles. Let them play their roles and be done with it; even that is too much at times). Adding another Winchester with all the accompanying angst and backtory needed on all sides...I shudder to think how much more soap opera-y that will make a show that Kripke promised would never be "the O.C. with ghosts." Agreed: it would be "General Hospital."
He loves to yank our chains, however annoying we might find it, but this is one rumor that, if untrue, should be dispelled. And if true...well, it won't be cool, to put it mildly.
Will the Winchesters ever just be brothers again?
48 - Amanda (MysticKitty)
Wow. This second post of mine would've probably been a lot bigger than it turned out to be, which is pretty dang big, LOL...were it not for so many other posters who have taken the words right out of my mouth concerning Sam - or more accurately, the lack of him. Very nicely and truthfully put!
I will echo one of Deanna's statements though - actually, I'll echo the whole well-said post, agreed with everything! - where she mentioned that a large and vocal part of this fandom couldn't care less what happens to Sam. That is the truth, and sometimes it even goes farther than that...certain factions of this fandom don't just 'not care' about him, they actually hate him! True I don't put much stock into the certain sites (which shall remain nameless on here) that these statements came from, but Kripke does, he said so himself when asked what the top sites he goes to for fan input are, so...this is a problem! What were the statments? Pages of agreement that Sam should be written/killed off the show and replaced with Castiel. Hopes that Sam will end up as a broken "empty shell of a man" for being such a horrible person and brother. Does this worry anyone else? IT SHOULD! Namely the writers of this show! It's obviously not Jared's fault that Sam is so widely and wildly disliked - he plays the character beautifully and masterfully, infusing him with heart, soul, passion, and a quiet intensity that shines through in any material he's given to work with. So there's your sign, writers...it's not Jared, so it must be that said material! Or the lack thereof, especially nowadays. Makes sense, right?
Deanna, Bright73, and Rachel among others have already sufficiently explained how much of Sam's story material has either disintergrated before its time on the cutting room floor and/or has been completely glossed over, so I won't repeat the many examples. But I will say that, in general, it's a recurring theme. Kripke admits he did a disservice to Sam's character by shrinking his vast array of daddy issues to about four two-second lines at the end of ELAC, especially when Sam had all that guilt and John had practically blamed him for the whole mess b/c Sam didn't shoot him. But does Kripke try to remedy that? NO. He just says "Oops!", shrugs, and moves on. Too little, too late, right Kripke? Then, we have the writers' strike - no one's at fault for that in itself, of course, but we have Kripke saying that they had to drop Sam's storylines to focus entirely on Dean's deal, and they would make up for the lack of equal Sam-focus in S4. Understandable? To a degree, since Dean's deal was the biggest storyline at that time. But really, Kripke?! THIS is what you call 'making up' for it?!?! If anything, we're getting LESS Sam than we got in S3 so far in S4! And as I can't stress ENOUGH, it has nothing to do with screentime!
I understand that S4 still has an entire half plus two left, but the sides/spoilers that I've read have been FAR from encouraging. And yes, I also understand that spoilers can be exaggerated or just plain wrong, but most of what I've read has been sides, which typically carry more weight than spoilers, so...yeah, not encouraged. As Vera said, eps 13 and 14 are the only ones that have shown some major promise for some Sam insight, but as Sam will likely be raked over the coals for what he says/does to Dean in ep 14, I kinda half dread that one! Ep 16, guess who's back? None other than Anna-Sue, a character I for one hoped to never see again. I doubt she'll be doing any connecting with Sam since she's already done the deed with Dean, right? And the ep 17 sides I just don't even wanna talk about. Let's just say we're heading for WIaWSNB redux...time for Dean to learn another lesson on how important he and what he does is to the world. Which, yeah, he IS important (we get it already), but just ONCE, can't Sam have a bit of encouragement and reassurance as well instead of being harped at that he's destined to be evil and such negative things?
Alice, you said it perfectly yourself, and THANK YOU for that. How much more can Sam take, how much more can he be EXPECTED to take, without breaking?? I would absolutely LOVE to see Sam have the mother of all breakdowns as you mentioned, but honestly, my belief that KripCo even cares enough about Sam anymore to write such an astronomical/sympathetic scene for him - akin to the one they wrote for Dean when he confessed about his time in hell - is worn too thin. Sam has so little at this point when he should have a lot, and it worries me deeply that they're possibly PURPOSELY doing it to make Sam UNsympathetic as possible, as flat and estranged from the audience and those around him as possible, b/c they plan for his ending to be anything but happy. It's like they don't WANT us to care about him. That scares me. Especially b/c I (and many others) am NOT doing what they may want...we DO care about him. DEEPLY. As Tina put it, we want Sam to start being treated as an important character, a MAIN character, in his own right, instead of being relegated to a storyline for Dean. Sam's freakin' DEATH was naught but a mere springboard into Dean's deal, his trip to hell and back, and the introduction of Dean's angels. If that hadn't been such a powerful, heartwrenching scene for so many (myself definitely included) we'd be hard-pressed to remember that Sam ever died at all. And that's a real shame, being that he's, oh I dunno, ONE OF TWO MAIN CHARACTERS???
This show started out with the tagline "Two brothers, one destiny". TWO brothers, not just one. ONE destiny, not seperate ones. And I can only hope in the end, that it ultimately lives up to that tagline.
Oh and BTW, Akira, glad you appreciated my first post, thanks. I may be frustrated and ready to rant, LOL, but I also, if anything, strive to be fair and inoffensive. :-)
49 - tina
Alice I have given Eric nd the writers the benefit of the doubt for 2 seasons, waiting for these people to do the right thing , they have a huge responsabilty to Sam and they have failed him on every level,never , ever have I seen a main character so poorly treated Eric and these writers should never be allowed to create or write a show again ever.
Dean is a great character but Sam is their gem that they have abused for 2 and half seasons , no excuses none. I would love to talk to Eric and for him to explain these unforgiveable carry on to all the Sam fans that have supported his show.
50 - Mia
I too am chiming in as an unhappy Sam fan, first off can I just say thankyou for your article, it's always nice to hear the writers asked sane questions.
Second of all. Sam, Sam, Sam. I miss him, have for a long time now. He's been pushed to the background far too much already this season. I guess it's just upsetting that it makes you start to lose your love for a show you adored.
Usually a season is split pretty evenly between the boys and this one, yeah not at all, there was even an episode where Sam was in it for less than a minute, and all the talking around it in the world as to why will never satisfy a fan of a show supposedly about two brothers, and for the record even as the ultimate Sam girl I'd feel the same if Dean was treated that way.
Basically he's been pretty pushed aside and non existant, i'm sure it's not coincidental that my favourite episode of this season was Metamorphisis because we at least got SOME area of where Sam's head was at.
I'm tired of watching him swept under the rug to show how Dean reacts to everything. Sam's girlfriend dies and we skip to the show pretty much a few weeks after that so we don't see all that, I get that that was what had to happen but we missed out on a lot of heavy Sam emotion there. Then they lose their Dad, but oh no that's mainly Dean's issues there, never mind that Sam and Dad were in constant conflict and he wouldn't even know how to deal with that, the aftermath and grief all fell to Dean and Sam supporting Dean as he spiralled because of the deal.
Right ok fine, i didn't like it but I dealt. Then however Sam dies, literally, physically dies and Dean's feelings are dealt with and instead of any slight exploration whatsoever into Sam's feelings on being ressurected we are once again treated to Dean's feelings because now he's made a deal.
Season three should have been concentrating on Sam's feelings of the impending loss of his brother, other than Mystery Spot it was practically all Dean's self sacrifice season.
Now Season Four and we are now seeing Dean exploring why he came back, so hang on, Dean dies and gets full massive character and plot exploration from it, Sam dies and it's all about Dean's plot and character exploration.
I don't know I'm feeling really hard done by being a Sam fan lately and it's just unfair the absolute bias.
Many of us love the brotherly connection but mainly watch the show for Sam, tell us WHY we should be tuning in writers because you're barely giving us reason to of late.
Even I Know What You Did Last Summer was tainted because of the awful Ruby/Sam scene. Jared's acting was phenomenal but all people took away from it was Sam's bad decision with a demon. Still an amazing episode but not nearly enough to keep Sam fans interested.
Come on Sera, Kripke, Ben, anyone...you can do better than this.
51 - Josie
It was nice to see one of the writers actually talk a little about Sam, even almost call him a hero (in his own mind, anyway), but I would get so giddy if the writers seemed to have the same enthusiasm and focus on Sam as they did Dean (and to some extent Jared as they do Jensen, because I've noticed that BOTH boys are pretty talented but one only gets complimented for it nine times out of ten).
I just miss the show I fell in love with, and while I respect that show's change, the fundamental shift in this show has so skewed the original premise of two brothers and one destiny and the family business that I hardly recognize it. I miss seeing eps where the boys learned about each other and cared about what they learned. I miss not every ep having angels or demons and finishing with a close-up of Dean's face (that's NOT a slam against Dean, it's just that it's happened about every ep). I would be nice to hear Kripke get excited about Sam or say flat out that Sam IS a hero too or to just know that I'll have reason to like my favorite show again.
I just miss Sam so much. And fandom is such a sad and scary place for a Sam fan due to the nature of the show these days and how Sam is presented without any depth nine times out of ten. I've tried believing that Sam's stuff is coming but I've been burned so many times before.
52 - *bright73
I want to add one last thing.
The promos for 4.11 show that the episodes is again all about Dean's issues in this standalone. Sam is again in the background and even very metaphorically sent off screen by Dean. Aren't promos made to make you want to watch the episode?
This:
Promo for 4.11
made me realize I don't even wanna watch this. Simply because I can't take much more of Sam having to mother Dean while he is all alone with his own issues. Or treated like he doesn't have any? I already watched Sam nurse Dean through his grieving for John in S2!
Another promise broken - the one that Sam's arc would be dealt with during the episodes 8-15. I mistakenly thought Sam would be more prominent during these eps, at least on equal basis with Dean.
I see I was mistaken, again. It will not happen again because I really am starting to feel there's no hope for Supernatural to be the show about two brothers, the show I used to love.
Kripke has let me down again.
53 - Anna
I think Sam's gotten a ton of characterization, this season and in seasons past. I just don't get the whole "I don't know what's going on in Sam's head" thing... they tell us what's going on in Sam's head all the time.
54 - kim
Everyone before me has said it so well, but I can't not stand by and show my support.
I feel betrayed by Kripke for was he has done to the character of Sam. Asking me to trust Kripke in regard to Sam is kind of a joke. I mean no offense Alice because you are not the first person who has responded to Sam fans with this suggestion. Honestly why should we trust him? His actions have spoken pretty clearly this season.
This season Dean is the star of the show. It has been gradually heading this way for the last two seasons, but I think this year the idea has been embraced fully. Most of the episodes have been about Dean, the promos are primarily Dean-centric, the only time Mr. Kripke has commented on the series all season has been about Dean. It seems Sam's only purpose this season is to be straight man to Dean.
I love both boys and by complaining about the lack of development for Sam I am in no way saying that I think Dean should be relegated to the background. But honestly, for those of us who feel a more emotionally connected to the character of Sam, it is really sad that we have seen him go through so much and not have any of it addressed.
I would much rather get an episode of learning what is going on in Sam's head than to see all the humorous episodes we have had this year. I read spoilers too, so although they are not complete scripts I basically have an idea of what's coming. What's coming is more Dean and very little Sam. Just more of Dean being told he is worthy and a hero. Has the show forgotten that Dean had a partner when saving all those people? I was even more disheartened to learn that we may get an episode which starts from Castiel's point of view. How is that not a slap in the face to Sam fans who have been trying to wait patiently for there character to come back to the forefront this season?
I think Deanna said it best when she commented on Mr. Kripke's tendency to pander to the most vocal and extreme portion of the fandom. When you are listening to people who spew Sam hate day in and day out there is a problem. I honestly wouldn't be shocked if eventually the show does become Dean and Castiel someday. That would make the four or five people who enjoy talking about how awful Sam is every day very happy.
Unfortunately,I believe that Sam's death in All Hell Breaks Loose part one was really the death of the character fans have come to know and love. That was the point when the show stopped caring about Sam and his feelings and started looking at the world through Dean's eyes. It really saddens me to accept this fact because the show started out with so much promise. I love the brother dynamic and don't enjoy having one without the other. It doesn't matter how many funny lines Dean gets, or if they put him in tight red shorts, or they have him being courted by angels, I will never love the character the way I do when he is being Sam's big brother.
I really miss Sam. An if the above comments are any indication, I am not the only one. I hope that somehow you can forward these comments to Sera so perhaps she can share our concerns with Mr. Kripke. If the show is only going to continue through Dean's eyes, I wish he would be honest and admit that instead of continuing to offer empty promises that never see the light of day!
55 - Missy
"Has the show forgotten that Dean had a partner when saving all those people?"
Clearly not. Remember Metamorphosis, when Sam told Dean that he'd saved more people in the last few months than both of them had done in a year? Remember It's the Great Pumpkin, when Dean told Castiel that the town was safe because of "my brother and me"?
"I was even more disheartened to learn that we may get an episode which starts from Castiel's point of view. How is that not a slap in the face to Sam fans"
Um, because lots of episodes open from the point of view of characters that are not Winchesters? Because even random victims get episodes that open from their POV, sometimes?
"Most of the episodes have been about Dean, the promos are primarily Dean-centric, the only time Mr. Kripke has commented on the series all season has been about Dean."
Sam fans can blame that last one on themselves. If they hadn't been so distastefully gleeful about the show "canonically" saying that Sam was a good guy and Dean was a dick, I doubt Kripke would've said a thing.
And if Dean is getting such awesome treatment this season, why hasn't he been permitted to make the major kill or save in any case they've tackled? Why does he have to stand in the background while Sam fights the demons, or get beat up so that Sam can be allowed to shine? Why couldn't the boys patch EACH OTHER up in the ninth episode, rather than Sam stitching himself together and then popping Dean's shoulder in, too?Why can't it be equal, as it's always been?
Simple. Because Kripke et al are trying their hardest to make Sam into this uber badass, so that Sam's fans will be happy. But Sam's fans are never happy, so they find something ELSE to complain about.
It's pretty unfortunate for Kripke et al, but I think it's really better if they just stop trying to please everybody and tell the story they want to tell.
56 - kim
Sam fans can blame that last one on themselves. If they hadn't been so distastefully gleeful about the show "canonically" saying that Sam was a good guy and Dean was a dick, I doubt Kripke would've said a thing.
Can you provide the link for all this "distasteful glee"? I would love to see what prompted Kripke's quick defense of Dean.
57 - Tom
Amanda great comments; I won't add to them you said it so well--especially about the Sam-hating which goes on in a forum on Krepki's reading list. I just think there are a lot of fans who seek to prove the degree of their devotion to Dean by the degree of their dislike of Sam. And. episodes featuring Sam are generally panned; those filled with Dean are praised. The writers, and especially Krepki, seem to be playing to that audience.
I wish the writers and producers would admit that what happened to the series is: they came to believe that the Dean character is extremely well-liked and that the Sam character is disliked so they created a soap to CW's liking around the Dean character. And, it turned out that a soap built around Dean, with Sam as his evil brother, has drawn a bigger crowd of CW's typical audience than does the old On The Road/X-Files inspired series. Given that success, the Sam character is destined for a minor role.
So I don't think there is any real hope that we will see much of Sam in the future except as someone to give Dean another reason to cry on the hood of his car. In fact, Sera says we will get a episode from Castiel's point of view. Since we had only one episode from Sam's point of view this season(IKWYDLS), giving Castiel equal time with Sam would seem to make a clear statement about where the series is going.
58 - Rachel
Um, no, Sam fans didn't care one way or another about the dick comment. That was Dean fans throwing a hissy fit over their beloved perfect Saint Dean being called a dick - such a fit, in fact, that Kripke felt the urge to issue a press release. Never once has he issued any statement assuring Sam fans about anything. And the things he does say about Sam never pan out.
And Missy, if you want things to be TRULY equal, then the rest of the season's episodes should end with close-ups of Sam's expression, Sam should cry on the hood on the Impala at least twice, and Dean should be in only 40 seconds of an episode that features only Sam. That would be equal treatment. Furthermore, any episodes involving AU, family, innermost dreams, or "what if" realities should be about Sam, not Dean.
59 - Alice Jester
Amanda, Deanna, Rachel, Vera, Kim, Mia, Tom, bright73, and all others that chimed in support of Sam, I do thank you for the comments. I'm taking everything that's discussed here and working on a new article, exploring the issues with Sam's direction. This seems to be a topic in desperate need of further examination.
I've followed and studied a variety of network TV shows long enough to know character development takes a long time, and 22 episode seasons are VERY long. Anything can happen. The Sopranos did such a great job with it because they only had 13 episodes! I've often seen one character get focus in the first part of the season, and another get theirs the second. There is still hope, it just may not be obvious right now. The complete layout of the rest of the season has not been made public. This NO WAY is my guarantee that Sam is getting the desired character development in the rest of season four, but there's plenty more to see and I'm being patient.
I've also followed spoilers and sides before for years and the finished product rarely reflects what those spoilers hinted. Especially when acting, directing, and special effects are put into it. For example, I read the lengthy sides for Long Distance Call, and the episode turned out nothing like those sides. After that, I stopped reading them. They are meant for casting calls. As for the third Winchester brother, that is a rumor sparked by Kristin Dos Santos. I can see where the sides could be misunderstood. Until a writer or Kripke says they're going there, I'm not speculating. Heck, I'm not making any judgment until the episode has aired.
Those working in the writers office (including Kripke) read forums, blogs like this (almost all of them), and any other sources of fan feedback. They even read fan letters. I'm very pleased to see Sam fans be so vocal here, because it's one of the few places I've seen this. I too believe his character has been underexplored, but this is the first time I've seen outrage over it. That makes me rather happy, because my attempts to get discussions going about Sam previously have failed.
Comments will be read. Whether anything is done about it, that's a different story, but I have NEVER known another show where the fans' voices are listened to. Take House for example, where their executive producer has publically said he doesn't care what fans think. The Supernatural fandom has it good believe it or not, so as long as concerns are constructive and well thought out (which they have been here mostly), they will be considered. Sure, it might take until season five, so be patient. In the meantime, this show offers too many other good moments to throw that all away.
60 - Amanda (MysticKitty)
Rachel said it. I didn't see a single comment where Sam fans took smug pleasure from Dean being called a "d*ck" in Yellow Fever. In fact, I saw lots of fans, myself included, who didn't think a thing of the comment...most fans honestly thought that it was a throwaway line (much like when Dean calls Sam "freak", which could be very hurtful to Sam with his powers and all, but the way it's said lets you know it's being played for a laugh instead of a derogatory statement) but then when the basic entire plot was revealed to be built around that 'Dean is a d*ck' statement, it was generally chalked up to poor writing. I saw no "distasteful glee" whatsoever, and one of the forums I hang out in has nothing BUT Sam fans in it! But hey, guess what, we all love Dean too.
I saw the 'apology/reassurance' letter that Kripke sent out over the d*ck issue. And he sure didn't mention Sam fans or any 'distasteful glee' in it - actually, he didn't mention Sam fans at all - so that tells me loud and clear what fandom faction prompted the letter to be sent out. The usual extremist suspects. "Dean is a hero", Kripke said. Be happy, cuz that's more than Sam fans ever got. We got Kripke at a convention announcing "Dean is the REAL hero of this story...sorry Sam fans." Nice, huh? Funny, I always thought BOTH boys were heroes in this story.
Wanna talk distasteful? Then talk about how from Lazarus Rising on, from that scene with Ruby in Sam's hotel room, Sam was labeled as a rapist. And boy did the sentiment run rampant. There was hardly even any consideration of other options, other explanations, nope...he was a rapist, simple as that. And since Jared made a joke in one pre-IKWYDLS interview that yes, he thought Sam and Ruby were together b/c "they have needs", he was accused of making light of rape and even CONDONING it by a couple of so-called 'fans'. Trust me, I was right there in the middle of that debacle, doing my best to defend Jared, but sadly, I was in the minority. It was unbelievable. And this crap is going on at the SAME TIME as the whining over Dean being called a d*ck, and THE LATTER is what gets Kripke's attention/intervention?! Being labeled a d*ck over being labeled a rapist? A fictional character being called a name over a real person being accused of something horrible and obviously completely untrue?
But that's the way this fandom works, unfortunately. And now Sam has been labeled a necrophiliac instead, and as also untrue as that is, as much as us Sam fans don't appreciate it, you don't see us getting any apology/reassurance letters. That's b/c the most aggressive, most vocal part of this fandom gets the service, and that's certainly not the Sam fans, the bi-bro fans, or the many normal Dean fans. It's the EXTREMIST Dean/Jensen fans, who, just as Tom (thanks for the compliment, BTW) said, strive to prove their devotion to Dean/Jensen by hating and condemning Sam as much as possible. Or, when it gets really bad, and I've sadly seen more than enough of this too...hating JARED as much as possible. As I said, I'm on a forum with nothing but Sam/Jared fans, but not a one of us have EVER wished for Dean to be written off the show, for Dean to end up as an "empty shell of a man", insulted Jensen simply to make Jared look/sound better, or even wished for Dean to become a background character to Sam much the way Sam is a background character to Dean this season. And guess what? We never would. And for some ppl's info, yes, the Sam fans were in fact happy once upon a time, loved this show head to toe. Back in S1, S2, even S3 to a certain degree, where both boys were in the foreground, the character-waters weren't so crowded and muddy, the plot wasn't so epic to the point of forgetting where the heart and soul of the show truly lies - within the brotherS and their unbreakable bond - and the future wasn't looking so grim and unpromising, save for a couple of episodes.
You wanna see ppl who are constantly unhappy and quite vitriolic in their expressions of it, then I can highly reccommend a site and a fandom faction for you, and it sure isn't the Sam fans, despite the numerous things that we've had to be unhappy about this season. Abbreviation of the site starts with a "T", ends with a "P", has a compound word in the middle...take some guesses. Or consult number one on Kripke's list of top fan-input sites. Go to the main Supernatural forum (i.e. episode reviews) or the spoiler section. Now THERE you'll find some REAL whining and distaste.
61 - Amanda (MysticKitty)
Oh, you commented while I was typing, Alice, LOL. Which happens to me often cuz I make such long posts! ;-)
Great comment, though, and thank YOU just as much, for allowing us disgruntled Sam fans to civilly speak our minds over here, and listening to and appreciating our words. We've been beaten into silence and submission for a long time on other boards/forums, by the previously mentioned "most vocal/agressive part of this fandom", but things have definitely gone too far on the show right now and it's high time that we spoke out, risk that we may be accused of 'whining' or no. And I've been so pleased to see so many other fans - whether Sam fans, bi-bro fans, or Dean fans - speaking out right along with me in support of Sam and disapproval of the way he has been handled, and just as pleased and appreciative that you're giving us this chance, rather than shutting our arguments down or out like a lot of other sites have a tendency to do.
This really heartens me, and increases my hope for the future of the character and this show overall, and though I know there's no guarantee of it, I sincerely hope that Sera and the rest of Kripke's gang - including the man himself - will take our frustrations and points into consideration and subsequently work to fix or improve things to a substantial degree. And I do understand that it could a long while for these changes for the better to be made, but the real important thing is that they're made at some point...not when they're made, but IF they're made. So all that said, I will try my best to be as patient as possible, and keep the hope and faith that our concerns will be addressed and acted upon.
Thanks so much again, Alice, and still looking forward to part two of your interview with, Sera! :-)
62 - Deanna
Thank you, Alice! It is great to know that these issues will finally be given their due. I can't speak to your attempts to generate this type of conversation in the past, but I can speak for other sites I have been on, where any worries about Sam's character are perceived as petty whining at best and Dean-bashing at worst. And there are more than just a few of us who have tried to raise the questions over the last couple of seasons.
No true Sam fan wants his development at the expense of Dean's--it's not an either/or proposition. We love them both, neither to the exclusion of the other. It's just that the driving force of the show seems to have drifted toward Sam being a prop or plot contrivance (or ignored completely) and that has many of us concerned and distressed. What makes Supernatural so great is the brother bond, which cannot be at its fullest if one of the two characters isn't.
But, in doing your research for this next article, it would be great if you addressed not only this season, which is not yet complete, but the earlier seasons also. Sam's grief over Jess and his father, his mother, his own death, the way he had to make himself go on after the events of Mystery Spot, the emotional fallout from Dean's death, his own views on his mother's deal (if he even knows about it), which set things on this path for him in the first place. (Sometimes, when the Winchester family is taken as a whole, it seems like Sam is barely even on the fringe).
Again, it's not about Sam having equal minutes of airtime. It's about being able to truly understand and sympathize with his character, appreciate what he's going through, see his growth or see his spiral down the rabbit hole--and not just guessing or hoping or extrapolating or his issues being used as a plot device for Dean.
I can't thank you enough for your graciousness in allowing us to comment, your responses to our comments, and your commitment to not letting these issues just fall by the wayside but exploring them further. Supernatural fans truly are lucky, and that extends to the people who cover the show as well as those who are part of it.
63 - Missy
"but then when the basic entire plot was revealed to be built around that 'Dean is a d*ck' statement, it was generally chalked up to poor writing. I saw no "distasteful glee" whatsoever, and one of the forums I hang out in has nothing BUT Sam fans in it! But hey, guess what, we all love Dean too."
Ha! I think I know what forum you're referring to, and here is a sampling of what they said after 4.06:
“Well, it's supposed to turn total macho jerks into screaming little scardies, like the people/things they were jerks to, and I'm not sure how much he *can* fight it. I think. It's kinda Tricksterish. And it's amusing me greatly. Though I'm probably giving Dean way too much credit.”
"I'm calling it - Dean's refusal to accept Sam for who/what he is will be the thing that drives Sam darkside. Instead of trying to help him cope, he's going to make him feel so hopeless that Sam won't see any option except to embrace what's in him. Or to kill himself. Or do both at the same time."
"They seemed to go out of there way to connect Dean getting infected with Dean being a dick, which, earlier seasons that would be iffy, this year it's on target. He has been a dick. Especially with Sam two weeks ago."
"But I did find it interesting that Dean was infected and not Sam, and that Dean was considered a dick - lol. Maybe it's Dean that's heading down the wrong road after all. Hmmm...."
That's just a small sample. Hope that jogs your memory... and if anyone believes you all love Dean after hearing you talk about him selling Sam out, driving Sam toward evil, being a dick, and hoping against hope that he's the one that goes evil even though he'd have no built-in excuse like Sam does... well, if anyone believes that, I've got some lovely oceanfront property for sale in Kansas. ;)
64 - Claire
"This season Dean is the star of the show. It has been gradually heading this way for the last two seasons, but I think this year the idea has been embraced fully. Most of the episodes have been about Dean, the promos are primarily Dean-centric, the only time Mr. Kripke has commented on the series all season has been about Dean. It seems Sam's only purpose this season is to be straight man to Dean."
Interesting that THIS season has received the most positive critical praise and is getting the highest ratings it's EVER had on the CW. Obviously Kripke is doing something right. I've hooked a lot of people onto the show this season who had given up early on last season, and they all LOVE this season.
"You wanna see ppl who are constantly unhappy and quite vitriolic in their expressions of it, then I can highly reccommend a site and a fandom faction for you, and it sure isn't the Sam fans, despite the numerous things that we've had to be unhappy about this season. "
Oh my ... are you KIDDING ME?? I have never seen a site that is so dedicated to *complaining* about Supernatural and criticizing Dean (and Jensen's acting) than the (SAM fans) Limp-Sam forum!!! These Sam fans feel that Dean having a mytharc is unfair because Dean's own storyline takes away from Sam in some way -- basically Sam should be the center of the SPN universe while Dean's primary job is to unwrap the rope from limp!Sam's neck.
And say what you want about TWoP, but I find that it contains the most intellectual discussion of the show on the net, fans of both brothers post there, and it's heavily moderated. Honestly, I would have a lot more sympathy for the Sam fan's POV if people from the Limp-Sam forums commenting here did not ALSO rip Dean apart for every little thing all of the time -- the same exact thing they accuse Dean fans doing to Sam. Dean can't do anything right in these Sam "fans" eyes. Apparently Dean's *only* concern should be Sam, all of the time. Dean's only worthy if he's being Sam's protective big-brother because poor Sam has been through so much and it's Dean's JOB to coddle and protect him -- no matter that he's spent 40 freaking years in HELL. Nope. Dean's priority is Sam and Sam only, and that's that.
I am SO VERY grateful to Kripke for giving Dean something else to focus on besides Sam this season. And don't get me wrong, I LOVE the brother's relationship, but the first 3 seasons, with the mythology of the show ONLY involving Sam, was entirely unbalanced. Now this season, it is FINALLY balanced between both brothers.
I love this season. I think Kripke was wise to focus on Dean's storyline initially to establish the expanded mytharc. Sam had 3 seasons of a mytharc storyline all to himself, so I'm not seeing the issue. From what I can tell, the second half of the season seems like it will be focussed on both brothers as their storylines intersect. My only issue with fandom right now are these rabid Sam fans who feel that Sam should be the ONLY brother with a mytharc storyline and who cannot see that great characterization for Sam DOES exist, it just may not be the type of characterization (i.e. hitting rock bottom and sexing it up with Ruby) that they want.
65 - Amelie
Missy, just so you're aware, the forum you speak of is a place where Sam-fans can go to complain, rant, hope, dream, speculate. We're friends talking amongst friends, the same way you'd complain about your husband to your best girlfriend, then go home and love him with all your heart anyway. We say a lot of different things there, sometimes in reaction to what we read on other sites, sometimes knee-jerk frustration with an episode or plotline. And if you read all the threads, you would know that.
And I can guarantee you it's NOT read by anyone among Kripke and Co.
We're just a small, friendly group with a clear mission statement I'm assuming you've read, where people can say what's on their minds without getting jumped on. Do we overreact at times? You betcha! But we keep it to ourselves, in our very small community, where everyone has an equal voice, unlike other places in fandom. So I hardly think this is the kind of example of widespread fandom glee you're looking for.
66 - Dana
As a former Dean girl and currently a bi-bro girl leaning towards Sam, can I just say that I am so so happy I am not alone in being unsatisfied and a little disappointed when it comes to Sam's storyline and character development. I don’t think I could put my concerns any more articulately than the awesome people who have posted before me.
I miss Sam.
I miss seeing the brotherly bond.
I miss Dean being a big brother (and I do get that Dean has been through a LOT, but I wish he would just show a little concern toward Sam).
I defiantly miss seeing Sam actually react to things emotionally and having those reactions and emotions being effectively presented and explained. The guy isn’t superman, their has to be something going on under the surface.
I miss reading spoilers and having them be about Sam and Dean. Not Sam and Ruby, Dean and Castiel.
I have hope that the things that I have been missing dearly can return, but every episode that goes by where that doesn’t happen, it gets harder and harder to maintain my optimism. I care about these characters, I love this show, and I just want to see both Sam and Dean get the focus and development that they deserve. I want equality. Thank you Alice for your responses and for being willing to address our concerns about Sam.
It was like a breath of fresh air to see all these comments and to be able to share my opinion without having to worry about being bashed for it or be accused of whining without reason. Hopefully this will be a step in changing things for the better.
67 - Lauren
"It's the EXTREMIST Dean/Jensen fans, who, just as Tom (thanks for the compliment, BTW) said, strive to prove their devotion to Dean/Jensen by hating and condemning Sam as much as possible. Or, when it gets really bad, and I've sadly seen more than enough of this too...hating JARED as much as possible. As I said, I'm on a forum with nothing but Sam/Jared fans, but not a one of us have EVER wished for Dean to be written off the show, for Dean to end up as an "empty shell of a man", insulted Jensen simply to make Jared look/sound better"
Um, I do believe that one of your fellow Sam fans, *bright73, is one of the most outspoken Jensen BASHERS in Supernatural fandom. And her criticism of Jensen/Dean is simply to make Jared/Sam look better. She has been dissing Jensen since his Dark Angel days and continues to do so now. So, MysticKitty, I do believe that your statement would be inaccurate, but of course, you already know this.
I agree with Claire, anyone can post their opinion on twop, it's intelligent discussion, and it's a multi-fandom site, not only for Supernatural fans. Anyone can post in disagreement, so if the criticism is unwarranted, then people will post their own opinion -- ALL opinions are welcome. But that's not the case on your Sam ONLY fan forum, right? I mean, does anyone ever defend Dean/Jensen there when he's criticized? Not that I've seen. And, oh yes, HE IS CRITICIZED AND DISSED on your SAM forum. You better believe it. I don't believe there is an equivalent Dean-only forum out there, is there? Curious, that.
68 - Claire
"I miss Dean being a big brother (and I do get that Dean has been through a LOT, but I wish he would just show a little concern toward Sam). "
I'm not sure what show you're watching Dana, but the show I'M watching, Dean has shown more than a little concern about his brother Sam. But of course, being the Sam-girl that you obviously are (the very fact that you feel the need to define yourself as one or the other in the very first sentence of your post proves that), you only see Dean's worth in terms of how he relates to Sam. To you and the Sam-girls like you, Dean is SAM'S BIG-BROTHER, and that's it. It's really too bad you can't see that Dean should be allowed to be his own person and as well, Sam should be allowed to be an adult in his own right. Both brothers have grown since the first season and they should be allowed some character growth in that respect.
And if Dean wasn't concerned about Sam, then he wouldn't care whether or not he's using his powers. If Dean wasn't concerned about Sam, then he wouldn't have made it a point in ITGPSW to reassure Sam that even though Castiel and Uriel didn't seem like "angels", Sam should still continue to have faith. And if you didn't see the concern on Dean's face (FOR SAM) when Sam exorcised Samhain, I REALLY don't know what show you're watching.
Just because NOW Dean's entire existence doesn't revolve around Sam (as it ALWAYS has in the past), doesn't mean that he isn't concerned about Sam. Dean has been told by an angel of the Lord that his mission is to stop the Apocalypse to save humanity from Hell on Earth. Hello!! I think that might just be weighing heavily on Dean's might right now. And Dean is dealing with the aftermath of the most traumatic experiences EVER, you might just want to cut him a little slack if he needs to concentrate his efforts on healing HIMSELF for a while.
69 - Rachel
What does it take to get through to extreme Dean fans? This is not about Dean joining the mytharc. Our dissatisfaction with the way Sam's been handeled has nothing to do with Dean and the mytharc. It has to do with the way the characterization of Sam is handled, and the fact that so much less attention is paid to it! Kripke himself has gone on record TWICE saying he shoved Sam to the background - in season 2 over their father's death, and he dropped ALL Sam storylines in season 3. Kripke himself said! And those are the things we are mad about. It is about never having Sam cry on the hood of the Impala over anything. It's about John's relationship being exlusively lock-stepped with Dean, even though he had TWO sons and the relationship with Sam was the strained one, not Dean. It's stuff like that that pisses us off. What is so hard to understand about that?
As for the limp Sam forum, that is a forum among friends, as someone else said. And TWoP is a professional forum Kripke lurks at - in which Dean fans have ranted SO much about how badly their poor Dean has been treated that the mod told them to shut up and started banning people. The two best have been the half a season of ranting how Sam is a rapist and a necrophiliac (which some obnoxious fan accused Jared of at the Chicago convention, and he was stunned), and the whining that went on over how Jensen's name doesn't come first in the credits and it should because he deserves top billing, and only him and they watch the show DESPITE Sam. And they hope Sam dies so the show can be about Castiel and Dean. So no whining about limp Sam if you're not going to whine about TWoP, too. There's no difference between the two, except Kripke reads TWoP.
There are a handful of Dean fans at TWoP who scream and holler when Dean isn't made perfect in every way, the perfect hero, Mr. Martyr, the best hunter. I mean, dear God, he was jokingly called a dick in an episode - stop the press!! Dean is too perfect for such an insult! But it's fine to call Sam a rapist for a season.
This unerring belief that Dean must be number one and the best and most important and no one else may say anything different is ridiculous. What's worse is that it's not really about Dean as a character, it's about Jensen and some fans obsession with him. It happens on every freaking show he's on (Dark Angel, anyone? Don't you know, Michael Weatherly was eeeeevil and meaaaan to Jensen). And Kripke caters to it like a dog chasing a stick.
70 - Rachel
And Alice, thank you for your reply. I'm glad SOMEONE has something to say about Sam's abandonment by the writers. If you look around, there IS a lot of dissatisfaction with Sam's storyline (Ausiello and Kristin boards, buddyTV, limp Sam, Supernatural tv . . . there is a lot of discussion about this going on), and Kripke knows it or he wouldn't have worked so hard to make the Ruby sex fit into the plot. He just doesn't care.
It's really a losing battle. Sam fans might as well stop watching and give the show up to Dean fans. It's a pointless battle because Kripke has lost interest in Sam, and if he doesn't have interest in him, it doesn't matter if we do as fans.
71 - Missy
"But we keep it to ourselves, in our very small community, where everyone has an equal voice, unlike other places in fandom."
Mm, sure you do. That's why you all are here, spamming the comments.
And anyway, that's not the point, is it? The point is this statement:
"I saw no "distasteful glee" whatsoever, and one of the forums I hang out in has nothing BUT Sam fans in it!"
Which, if it is a reference to that site, is simply untrue. Or, perhaps, it's the result of a selective memory. But the fact is that there WERE comments on that site of the sort that I mentioned, so I wanted to correct the record. If you don't like that... sorry. But it's important to be honest in situations like this.
72 - Yumi
Wow, lots of good comments. I hope I’m not too late. I want to collaborate more about my comments before the 2nd interview with Sera. The main point that I want to get across is that my concern about the writings and the direction of the show.
Alice, I very much agree with your comments about Sam, that he's darker, and it is not a surprise to see how low he sank. I interpreted the sex with Ruby is of self-loathing and self-destructiveness. However, there is a fine different between interpretation/inference than pure speculation/fanwank, where the former is made based on the facts, subtleties/nuances showed on screen, and the latter indicates bad, sloppy writing.
Episode 4.9 was so bad because instead of showing how Sam has changed, the writers wasted screen time to whitewash Ruby! I would be ok if they have the sex, then a morning after scene to show Sam’s state of mind. I want to know what he thought. Did he freak out? Or was he so numb by grief and despair that he didn’t care at all? Or did he think it was ok and now Ruby is his new trusty BFF? There is no fall-out, no guilt, no angst, no self-destructive tendencies, no spiraling down a dark path afterward when we all know that sleeping with a demon is a very big deal. If the writers worry about adequate screen time, then cut out the entire sex scene or even have the sex scene with a live meat suit so as to not waste time over the contrived mechanics of “rape”.
All I got out of 4.09 is Sam grieved for Dean for one or two days. Then Ruby showed up, who now is a morally-conscious demon with a heart of gold. And apparently all it took to replace Dean was sex and some gentle sweet talks. For the rest of the summer, Sam and BFF/lover Ruby, when not practicing on Sam’s mojos or hunting demons, spend their free time shopping (the Ipod " Lazarus Rising), listening to love songs (Lazarus), catching the latest summer movies (Indiana Jones " Monster Movies) and driving the Impala into the sunset. That doesn’t seem like dark and destructive to me. Where is the spiral? When Dean comes back, we got one hug, then Sam goes back casually putting on his clothes/shoes. Even in Dean’s presence, Sam still runs to Ruby like a good puppy boyfriend when she appears, because Ruby cannot wait 15 minutes for a pool game to finish. I’m not sure about Sam and Dean’s financial status, but $500 for me can cover for lots of gas and lodging.
It troubled me greatly because I know that Sam is not like that and Dean is never replaceable. I can’t imagine the story like that but I can’t support my theory when there is absolutely nothing on screen to show what Sam is thinking. We can speculate all we want, but it is stronger with supporting facts/nuances shown on the screen. That is why I 100% agree with those who commented that Sam’s characterization/storylines have been sidelined. Dean is not the only Winchester with issues, but when it comes to Sam, no one bothers to address them " Sam is no longer a main character, but a mere plot device.
Dean’s characterization is off as well. Dean’s season 1 & 2’s big brother-ness would give Castiel and Uriel his piece of mind for threatening and treating Sam so badly. He would rush to help Sam when he is struggling and bleeding from the exorcism of Samhain. He would help Sam to get up first and totally ignore Ruby in Episode 10 (instead of helping Ruby first). And most important, he would see how off Sam is in Season 4 and try to understand and help Sam with his issue. If the audience can see how off Sam is, why doesn’t Dean? This is Dean we’re talking about here. He called out when Sam was not himself in Season 3. I disagree if someone says that Dean might be too occupied with his own Hell issue and the apocalypse to notice about Sam’s state of mine because Dean places Sam above everything else, well at least the old Dean would. I’d say at least after Metamorphosis, Dean would have pay greater attention to Sam. So where is the big brother’s concern and protectiveness? May be Dean doesn’t see it because Sam is ok. Sam has no problems at all. And that, if true, supports my concern for how badly Sam’s characterization is written.
Since we are on the subject of brotherly love, Sam’s feeling toward Dean is not quite right either. Case in point: Yellow Fever. Sam (and Bobby) seems detached and nonchalant. I wouldn’t want Sam to freak out and motherhen Dean, but I’d expect a sense of anxiety/urgency/concern from Sam at least in the last hour when Dean is about to die. Is it because Sam consciously detached himself from Dean so that if Dean does die, it won’t hurt as much??? Again, I can speculate all I want, but the show hasn’t given me any insight into Sam’s state of mind.
I also have trouble believing Dean’s acceptance of Ruby. It seems very convenient that Dean (and Sam) forgets about how manipulative Ruby was in Season 3. I can reasonably believe that may be Sam can’t see that Season 4 Ruby’s manipulation because he is not in his right mind " grief, destructive dark path and all. But Dean is smart. He should see through all the façade (and he did in Season 3!). Nothing in Season 4 so far shows that Dean and Sam see through the manipulation and is using Ruby to their own advantage. Instead, all I see is Sam and Dean being good buddies to Saint Ruby.
This leads to the problem with Ruby. Is she still evil? Or is she just putting on an act? Ok Sam and Dean can be dumb and don’t have to know, but at least give the audience subtle hints that she is still evil. But all I see of Ruby now is a pink puff of sunshine and rainbow, a demon with a heart of gold, who is apparently madly in love with Sam as seen through soft voice, gentle caress (eps. 9) and loving gaze (eps. 10).
If Ruby is good, what’s with the complete personality make-over? I read somewhere that the writers credited Ruby’s change to what happened in hell when Lilith sent her into far far away land. So after hundreds and hundreds of year of torture in hell, season 3 Ruby comes out as snarky, manipulative and evil. But 1 or 2 days with Lilith would make Ruby softer, humbler and good??? Very stretching.
Even if later, it turns out that Ruby has been stringing the boys along, instead of being a great twist, it will appear like (a) bad writing in the beginning and now the writers are trying to fix it as there has been no facts/hints or otherwise in Season 4 so far to show that Ruby is being evil or manipulative or (b) Kripke is dropping his Ruby’s pet project and giving into fans’ comments to kill off Ruby. That’s fine, but in the process, it hurts Sam and Dean’s, especially Sam’s, characterizations. It made them look dumb for falling into Ruby's traps.
I actually would admire Kripke more for having guts if he says “Screw the fans. This is my story and I’m writing it as I see fit”. But if that is the case, and the story sucks, then I get to say that it sucks.
I want to make it very clear that my comments are solely on the show’s writings/final products. I’m not as articulate as the other commenters, so if it comes off as personal attacks, I apologize because it is not personal attacks. I’m sure that Kripke and Co are nice and competent writers. But even geniuses make mistake. I just want to point out that there are lots of problems in Season 4. May be the writers will straighten this out in the second half of the season. But I’m worried that it might be too late, especially in regards to Sam’s storylines, considering current spoilers. And of course the writers can disagree with my opinion. But if they do agree, then there is time to fix the mess. Instead of more Castiel, Ruby, or Anna, let’s get back to the basics (Sam and Dean’s issues) so that the show is back on track. I’m hoping that Alice can address this concern in her 2nd interview with Sera. Thanks!
73 - Janine
"But it's fine to call Sam a rapist for a season."
Not canonically, it's not. In fact, they bent over backwards to make sure he was absolutely blameless. They weren't as interested in making absolutely sure Dean looked blameless in Yellow Fever, or critics like Don at BuddyTV wouldn't have been fooled into believing that Dean really DID get infected because he was just like a guy who dragged someone to death.
"in which Dean fans have ranted SO much about how badly their poor Dean has been treated that the mod told them to shut up and started banning people"
Barnes has banned several of you guys as well, for similar reasons. She's not very tolerant of repetitiveness, which happens on both sides. And yet you people still call her an EDG... which appears to be your standard epithet for anybody who DOESN'T think Dean is a total dick who abuses poor little Sammy.
"So no whining about limp Sam if you're not going to whine about TWoP, too. There's no difference between the two"
One difference is that TWoP is open to everyone... its mission statement is not to promote Sam. But you're right... you guys should absolutely not try to say you're better than any other forum, as far as whining and vitriol go. In fact, you're quite a bit worse, because you people exist in an echo chamber... you talk back and forth with people who think exactly the same way you do, and then you sit there, stunned, and say, "Wow, how can the ratings be so high? Maybe we're really the minority after all!"
"What's worse is that it's not really about Dean as a character, it's about Jensen and some fans obsession with him."
Actually, no. I know it makes you feel better to think so, but a ton of Dean fans, myself included, fell in love with the character first, never having known Jensen from anywhere else. In fact, I didn't even think Jensen was attractive for the first several episodes I saw him in... I just adored Dean, and soon came to realize that Jensen must be quite talented to make the character so transparent even in season one, before anything but the bare bones of the character had been set down. So now, I appreciate Jensen quite a bit, but Dean came first.
Also, even if some Dean fans did come to him through Jensen, quite a few of you are Jared fans from Gilmore Girls, where you HATED the other guys on the show... I know this, because many Jared fans talk about it freely, and talk about how abused he is in this show, just like he was in GG. So... yeah. There are some fans like this on both sides. But you're wrong to suggest that it's a purely Dean fan thing.
"I mean, dear God, he was jokingly called a dick in an episode - stop the press!!"
Wrong again. The issue for many people was not that he was called a dick, but that he was lumped into the same category as a guy who dragged another man to death, and a guy who covered up the murder. A joking insult wouldn't have even registered. A rationale for his sickness, and Sam's lack of sickness, that involves comparing him to a murderer? That's a problem. And you'd consider it a problem if a plot point revolved around the canonical assertion that Sam was akin to a murderer, I guaran-damn-tee it.
74 - Missy
"Dean's characterization is off as well."
I'm just curious, Yumi... why do you attribute the difference in Sam to a lack of insight into his thought processes, but also attribute the difference in Dean to a lack of insight into Sam? Shouldn't the conclusion be the same for both boys... and if Dean is equally as inexplicable as Sam this season, then he's being equally neglected as a character?
Personally, I get how both boys are behaving, and I think it's pretty consistent with how they've been in the past, while showing the results of what they've been through over the last few years. But if you don't, and you think Dean is just as badly characterized as Sam, then why do you think only Sam is being treated badly by the writers?
75 - *bright73
Dear Claire - interesting that Buddy.tv just elected Mystery Spot as the best episode of 2008 if this season is so stellar?
The promoting of this season has finally been sufficient, but the season isn't over yet. The drop from the first episode to the second is rather telling. And the fact that despite the promotion SPN is getting this year, it still hovers around 4 million. It lost heavily from the first episode and if the season was that stellar, it should be gaining, not losing viewers.
TWOP moderates Sam fans heavily, I got booted out for "being too preachy" when I cited Milgram's research in regards to obedience. You call that intellectual? Being banned because you point to research when you explain your view? I've heard others being banned because their posts were too short!
Luckily TWOP is paying the price for it bias now and only has a coupe of posters posting the same things over and over.
What you, Missy are missing, is that no-one here want Dean to have less. I want Sam to at least have a third of what Dean has and that his story lines are not constantly dropped. Simple as that. The brotherly bond is not functioning if one brother is in the background and isn't allowed to react. Right now the brotherly bond seems very dysfunctional with the abusing big brother who emotionally manipulates (God doesn't want you to) and physically abuses his brother that carries enormous guilt over his brother's fate. The same brother that should know what Sam is going through, he went through the same with John and Sam was there for him.
Sam nursed Dean through his grief over John, Dean hits Sam when he's struggling with his grief, his destiny and demon blood. I do not want to see that Dean because it is not heroic IMHO. It pains me to see the character reduced to that.
But yes, it probably is good soapy television. But it's far from the cult-series I started watching.
But soaps have their audiences too, even big ones, it just won't have me.
Lauren: Do I think Jensen's acting is the second coming? No way! And I have the right to say so. I think he does the type of bad boy with a golden heart-character splendidly. But in no way is he a million times better than Padalecki. If bashing Jensen consist of pointing out the good work Jared does, then your are probably right. And thankfully the industry seems to agree with me since Jared was nominated fot the Scream Award alongside Johnny Depp.
And yes, I found Dean's/Hensen's humor OTT in Yellow Fever, mostly due to the directing I gather. The beautiful thing with the net is that you are allowed to have different POVs and in no way do I attach you for having another view than mine. I just don't agree with you. Simple as that.
How I can bash Jensen when I barely talk about him is beyond me.
And this is why I don't discuss much in this fandom, you simply are not allowed to have your own opinions. I have been, and still am, in a couple of other fandoms but this one takes the cake.
I have said that I saw the same behavior among the Jensen fans back in the DA days, and I feel bad for Jensen having the kind of fans that have to resort to personal bashing of the actors and the fans. I quickly left the DA fandom. I was rather shocked when I saw the same behavior in the Supernatural fandom. I thought it was a clique of fanatics but I had to rethink after seeing what went on in the SPN fandom. Now I just try my best to avoid the rabid fans.
But I do think you just proved me right, because you just showed your true colors, dear Lauren. Have you ever tried posting on the forum you bash? Why not start a debate there too? Since you know how much I bash Jensen it would be nice to talk to you in situ where I actually do bash him according to you.
Rest assured that I answer the bashers to their faces, with the same nick when I am allowed to. But you already know that since you seemingly follow me around, don't you?
I'm so sorry Alice for bringing this to your blog. But I think you have the answer to why discussing Sam in this fandomis a bit tricky.
Thank you again and good night!