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Unfit For Command

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From Drudge

A veterans group seeking to deeply discredit Democrat John Kerry’s military service will charge in the new bombshell book UNFIT FOR COMMAND:

* Two of John Kerry’s three Purple Heart decorations resulted from self-inflicted wounds, not suffered under enemy fire.

* All three of Kerry’s Purple Hearts were for minor injuries, not requiring a single hour of hospitalization.

* A “fanny wound” was the highlight of Kerry’s much touted “no man left behind” Bronze Star.

* Kerry turned the tragic death of a father and small child in a Vietnamese fishing boat into an act of “heroism” by filing a false report on the incident.

* Kerry entered an abandoned Vietnamese village and slaughtered the domestic animals owned by the civilians and burned down their homes with his Zippo lighter.

* Kerry’s reckless behavior convinced his colleagues that he had to go — becoming the only Swift Boat veteran to serve only four months.

The Kerry campaign is planning to vigorously counter the charges and will accuse the veteran’s groups of being well-financed by a top Bush donor from Texas, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned.

“They hired a goddamn private investigator to dig up trash!” charged a top Kerry adviser traveling with the senator late Tuesday. “This is pay for play, and the dirtiest of all dirty tricks ever played on a candidate for the presidency. How low can they go?”

Kerry supporters are comparing the effort by the veterans to the Arkansas State troopers tell-all against Bill Clinton.

UNFIT FOR COMMAND will not be released until August 15.

Interesting. Maybe instead of merely running away from his almost two-decade long liberal voting record in the US Senate, this book will cause John. F. Kerry to run away from his Vietnam service as well?

If so, what the hell does he have left to run on? His time spent at boarding schools in Switzerland, learning French? Or maybe he’ll start talking more about his running-mate’s life story?

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About RJ

  • stinky_ferret

    Or, maybe he doesn’t need any of those things to defeat the clown show which is in power now?

    Drudge? Yeah, he’s certainly credible.

  • http://www.iamcorrect.blogspot.com Lono

    This is all crap. First off, Drudge is a partisan toolbox and has no credibility (think Mike Moore, to your people). Second, KERRY FUCKING SERVED IN WAR – which neither Clinton nor Bush did… so those who live in glass draft dodging houses should not throw stones.

    Kerry has a lifetime of service. It is fair and understandable if you … fuck it. Lemme just post my piece. It will surely be a flamewar, but look for it. It will be called ‘In Defense of Kerry’.

  • http://www.timeintelaviv.blogspot.com/ABOUT Corinna Hasofferett

    Now you see why I’m not running for Presidency either in USA or in Israel.

    Right now I’m the sole owner and writer of my life stories. At no account I’d allow a good for nothing z-rate scribbler steal my precious property!

    Diogenes’ advise:
    Buy some candles and start your own search for Truth.
    If you find it, wake me up.

  • SFC SKI

    It is a shame that mudslinging is the most noticeable aspect of US political campaigns.

    ” Second, KERRY FUCKING SERVED IN WAR ”

    Honorably?

    I don’t know how credible or not this book is, in any case, a candidate’s military service, or not, is only one consideration we should look at in choosing the President.

  • http://www.rodneywelch.blogspot.com/ Rodney Welch

    Drudge is farting in the wind and RJ will believe anything that suits his prejudices. Big deal.

  • Shark

    RJ, seriously, I can take the Kerry smears if they’re funny, original, creative, inventive, and/or entertaining.

    Quoting Drudge at length and adding two small paragraphs at the end is like vomiting on the wall and putting a cheap frame around it.

  • Keith Sikora

    This is why the only news source I can trust is “The Onion”.

  • Eric Olsen

    If all of this is true, in fact if any of this is true, then why would his “brothers in arms” have supported him so eagerly at the DNC? I hate smears from all sides.

  • Ed Godard

    And I hate boring, ad hominem smears. If you want to make the case against Kerry or Bush, why look any further than their policies? There is so much ore ready for mining.

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    I almost didn’t read this when I got to “Posted by RJ” but persevered until I got to “From Drudge.”

    At that point I skipped to the comments.

    Mostly, it appears that I should have skipped it all (Corinna and Eric excepted).

    Geez.

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    SFC SKI: “KERRY FUCKING SERVED IN WAR” Honorably?

    Now that’s the kind of smear I really hate.

    We’ve seen a lot of that from the right-wing. The Bush-mafia push-polling that defeated McCain in the primaries comes to mind:

    Voters in South Carolina report being asked “Would you be more likely or less likely to vote for John McCain for president if you knew he had fathered an illegitimate black child?” an allegation that had no substance but planted the idea of undisclosed allegations in the minds of thousands of primary voters.

    If you have something to say, say it and back it up. What have you got on Kerry’s service that would show it was other than honorable?

    And as you said before you dropped that nugget: “It is a shame that mudslinging is the most noticeable aspect of US political campaigns.

  • http://ari.typepad.com Steve Rhodes

    The book is from the far right Regnery press. They have no problem publishing a book by Ollie North who lied before congress and sold arms to Iran in order to fund the Contras who used terrorist tactics.

    More on Regnery.

    And the co-author of the Kerry attack book has been used as a tool by Republicans against Kerry all the way back to the Nixon era. He also was one of the people Rove used to try and smear McCain.

  • http://ari.typepad.com Steve Rhodes

    Oh, and Drudge himself stole and altered (to try and cover his tracks) a photo Dan Perkins (Tom Tomorrow) took of Michael Moore and Bill O’Reilly at the Dem Con.

  • Ed Godard

    Hal- Here’s one I’ve seen that takes the art of smearing to new, clever depths: ‘John Kerry is not a child molester!’

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    Thanks, Ed – I needed that ;-/

  • http://macaronies.blogspot.com Mac Diva

    Like Corinna said.

    The smear campaigns against Kerry started some time ago. Each smear gets discredited. I wonder why we even waste time discussing claims so disingenuous it is clear they are false from the get go.

  • http://www.resonation.ca Jim Carruthers

    In other countries, like Canada, they get their elections out of the way in under 5 weeks, surely, the USA can just set up a 1-900 number and get this reality show out of the way before summer ends?

    Because all this foo-far-ah is interfering with me finding out who beat the crap out of Paris Hilton. (Probably Drudge for getting all queeny about her saying he takes it up the Gary Glitter).

    C’mon, priorities, people!

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    Clear to you, MD, but there’s truth in the old proverb (also used by Goebbels):

    “Repeat a lie five times and it becomes the truth.”

    We see the result of that in the the belief many people have that Kerry “voted against the war on terror” and that “he’s a flip-flopper.”

    It’s important to call lies lies when you see them (and I wish that opponents of the extreme right were better at doing that).

  • Doc

    The people who actually served *with*/under him were at the DNC supporting him.

    These creeps weren’t anywhere near Kerry.

    Of course, this takes us away from Flyboy George’s romps on drugs in Alabama instead of being in Vietnam himself…but we digress to this instead.

  • http://dirtgrain.com/weblog Dirtgrain

    This shit got shredded on Hannity and Colmes and Scarborough Country tonight. “Political pornography” is one phrase that stands out. If those shows are exposing it, then are there any Republican-biased outlets left that will support it? O’Reilly? Please don’t say Rush.

  • Sean

    Kerry only served 4 months on the swift boats, sustained a few very minor injuries, heads home and begins his political career as dissident-war hero. All bases covered. Political viability in tact. However, most swift commanders served a year and none ever went home after 4 months with the kinds of injuries Kerry received. Yes, Bush is everything negative you could think to say about him. But Kerry ain’t exactly a name to be shoutin’ from the rooftops. I hope Kerry wins too — but for chrissakes don’t debase yourselves.

  • http://dirtgrain.com/weblog Dirtgrain

    “. . . none ever went home after 4 months with the kinds of injuries Kerry received.”
    None? My friend was a medic in Viet Nam. He says people got Purple Hearts for all kinds of injuries (I used to think it was just if you got shot or severely wounded). I don’t think Kerry’s case is a unique one. But don’t accuse me of debasing myself. I despise the bastard and what he represents (greed, corporations, privilege, etc.). He is the lesser of two evils, though.

  • Jon

    C’mon you Kerry supporters..this guy couldn’t tell the truth if his LIFE depended on it! Get ur heads outta ur arses and wkae up! Kerry is a freakin socialist and a liar! He has been called out soooo many times and PROVED to be a liar it is funny.HE brought this all on by making it THE reason he should be elected. YOU guys just can’t take it! Bash Bush..OK..bash ANY democrat and you go nuts. Hypocrites ALL OF YOU!

  • Connie

    How could anyone think that O’Neil is credible? Here’s one for those that try to discredit Kerry’s service by using the illogical reasoning that he was there for only four months and how could he earn those medals in such a short time. I know a VN vet who had the duty of taking care of the dead there. He said he saw more than one case of a soldier getting killed on his very first day in Nam. I guess their deaths are not as meaningful as someone that had been there a year.

  • SFC SKI

    Hal, I think you misunderstand:

    SFC SKI: “KERRY FUCKING SERVED IN WAR” Honorably?

    Now that’s the kind of smear I really hate.”

    Now, I posted this because Kerry’s military service does not, in my opinion, automatically make him the better person or the better candidate. I wrote the question “Honorably?” because if for the sake of argument the allegations against Kerry proved to be true, how would that change his supporters views?

    My point was that military service should only be a part of the reason anyone should vote for any politician.

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    Re-reading Item #4, it still seems to me that you were claiming the higher moral ground (SFC SKI: It is a shame that mudslinging is the most noticeable aspect of US political campaigns), then pushing the smear with your quote and question.

    But I’ve found that e-mails and quick posts are often mis-interpreted (by myself and others), so I’ll take you at your word.

  • ajay

    Kerry’s military service should be subject to an examination, and also GW Bush’s national guard service open to examination.
    Open book makes any candidate more reliable. If they have nothing to hide and have told the truth, they have nothing to fear.

  • TJ

    Why is it legitimate for the Democrats to question openly Bush’s service record but not legitimate for independent Republicans to question Kerry’s? Remember Terry McAuliffe, only the very Chairman of the DNC, repeating the charge that Bush was AWOL? The Chairman of the DNC!!

    Democrats have been in the gutter for the past year repeating charges like that and inviting Michael Moore to sit next to Jimmy Carter at their convention. My heart just bleeds for them now.

  • Mikey

    The truth is out. Kerry joined the navy when he heard he was going to be drafted because he thought he’d get safe duty there and could use his exploits for a later political career, just like his hero JFK. When he volunteered for the swiftboats, they were used only as reconnaissance and considered safe duty. Only weeks after did they start being used in deadly patrols and Kerry seemed to behave like a coward when confronted with the enemy. But he made sure to bring his camera with him to “reenact” his “heroics” after the fact. He ASKED to be awarded certain medals, something considered dishonorable in the military. His FITREPS were horrible and were awash in dings which ended all hope of advancement. The Navy gave him an early out, apparently happy to be rid of him. He then not only trashed his service, but the service of thousands of others by portraying them all as barbarians. He met with the VC in Paris. The VC used his testimony to break down American POWs.

  • http://www.evilwhiteguy.com/blog Evilwhiteguy

    Everyone here is fairly partisan, myself included. However, picture yourselves for a moment as an “undecided” voter who doesn’t really follow politics all that closely. You see an ad run by the Swift Vets who all claim Kerry is lying about about his Vietnam service. All 250 or so of them. They’ve all signed sworn affadavits and have agreed to testify under oath about their statements. On the other hand, you have John Kerry, whose military record is in question. If all the Swift Vets are lying, all Kerry would have to do is fill out a two-page form to release his records in regard to what the Swift Vets claim he’s lying about. But Kerry refuses to release those records to the public. What would you think?

    I don’t think withholding his records is doing anything to make Kerry look more credible in the public eye.

  • http://www.liberalenemywithin.com Brian

    for all you waste of skin clowns who support Kerry….why not take a nice holiday and go over and visit the WAR CRIMES MUSEUM of VIETNAM and see the photos of John Kerry and Hanoi Jane Fonda they have up on the wall as people they honor as having helped them win the war although they were losing the vast majority of the battles,its a damned shame that americans are willing to forgive this because they hate Bush…you better be carefull what you wish for people…the worst thing that could ever happen to you and your families is that you just might get it…and with Kerry I’m sure you’ll get it in the ass first.

    http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=20040604194804799

  • http://unfit-for-command.com Kerryisaliar

    Now it looks like Kerry lied about being in Cambodia on Christmas in 1968. He spoke in the Senate about it in 1986, but the men who served with him say it isn’t true.

    http://www.unfitforcommand.us/modules/news/article.php?storyid=12

  • barbara

    because of my background and very informal present day contact with the serving military me thinks the kerr camp doth protest too loudly.

    kerry’s best bet is to ignore the whole thing.

    by the bye, getting the aircraft bush flew off the ground and back again, even in palm springs, requires a lot more brains, courage and skill than anything kerry ever did in vietnam or elsewhere!!!!!!!!!!!

  • barbara

    because of my background and very informal present day contact with the serving military me thinks the kerr camp doth protest too loudly.

    kerry’s best bet is to ignore the whole thing.

    by the bye getting the aircraft bush flew off the ground an back again, even in palm springs requires a lot more brains courage and skill dthan anything kerry did in vietnam

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    Why? Were Californians shooting at Bush in Palm Springs? I must have missed that.

  • walt

    I can understand the hatred that most Democrats hold for Bush. However, after watching the DNC, speeches, etc. I think I have finally figured out why John Kerry flip-flops or always gives himself an easy out on any statement he makes on an issue. In my opinion, John Kerry does not have the courage to be un-popular. BTW, JK really should have addressed his political career during the DNC and not put so much emphasis on his 4 month tour in Vietnam.

  • R.montgomery

    Not only do I know many Vietnam veterans, I am one myself. I served two combat tours with the 5th Marines in ’67 through ’69. I can tell you that the argument against the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is neither logical nor reasonable.
    1) Despite the DNC’s shrill response that none of these men served on Kerry’s boat (save for Steve Gardener)and therefor are lying about “having served with” John Kerry, the truth is that these men DID serve in the same unit. As anyone who has served in the military will tell you, serving in the same unit is the same as “having served WITH.” To my knowledge, none of these men, with the exception of Mr. Gardener, have ever stated otherwise.
    2) Kerry’s famous “Christmas in Cambodia” is clearly a blatant, outright lie. There is nothing Kerry can say to dispute this issue. Period.
    3) The actual truth of Kerry’s first Purple Heart is that he was, without question, treated by the unit’s MEDICAL OFFICER, who was Lt. Commander Letson.
    This is a matter of record and cannot be disputed. The fact that an enlisted corpsman signed the treatment document on behalf of Dr. Letson, does not change that basic fact.
    4) The now famous “Rassman/Bronze Star” incident simply does not stand up to scrutiny.
    According to Rassman’s and Kerry’s account, Rassman was blown overboard by the blast of a mine in the river. On the face of it, the story sounds reasonable, except for the details. Clearly, the mine blast did NOT damage Kerry’s boat. In fact, the mine blast disabled one of the other boats THAT WAS THERE, ON THE SAME OPERATION. Which is to say, there were a lot of OTHER PEOPLE THERE WHO SAW WHAT HAPPENED. If the blast was so strong that it blew Rassman overboard, how can anyone argue that the crew members of the other boats were too far away to see what happened? After all, it was another boat that actually got hit by the mine.
    I understand that many of you do not have any experience with mine blasts, shock waves, ect.. I do. For the blast to have been strong enough to pick a men up and throw him off a swift boat, he would have to be quite close to the blast zone. It is far more likely that Mr. Rassman lost his balance and fell off the boat when John Kerry accellerated out of the area, to escape what he probably thought was an ambush.
    Kerry’s biggest problem (and Rassman’s)is that there were at least two other boats on the scene at the time. At least four other crewmembers were picked out of the water, just like Rassman was(The difference being that those crewmen were on the boat that actually hit the mine.). The crew members from the other boats have stated that there was no enemy small arms fire from either shore after the mine blew up. Since the other boats stayed at that location long enough to pick the crew members out of the water, board the stricken swift boat and tow it back to base, it is wholley unreasonable to suggest that they do NOT know what was happening. They certainly would be aware of a “hellacious fire fight” supposedly taking place less than 50 yards away!!
    Nope, Kerry’s a damn liar and now he’s been caught. And all the King’s horses and all the King’s men cannot put Kerry
    back together again!

  • Andy

    Served 1st cav division 66/67. Kerry aided and comforted the enemy upon his return incountry along with Fonda. He voted against most of all if not all of the weapon systems we have today. all of this is public knowledge. He should be labeled a traitor. this is all I need to know

  • Jon

    YOU Vietnam vets ROCK! It’s VERY nice to see the voice of reason combating this tripe the lefties are spewing!! Kerry’s record and actions speak for themselves…”UNFIT FOR COMMAND”! ‘Nuff said…Thanks for all your service, vets!

  • http://none.com Bob A. Booey

    Vietnam was hot.

  • Dawn

    Napalm is VERY hot.

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    While I thought at the time (and still do) that Jane Fonda was a Commie bitch who shouldn’t have been let back into the country or jailed (or worse) when she got back, I see the Kerry situation as quite different.

    He fought the enemy.

    In my view, he fought for his country but disagreed with its government.

    Isn’t that what America is about?

  • Biggins

    It’s easy for Kerry to prove everyone here is wrong, show us your records! President Bush showed all his records, even his dental records. No, he didn’t serve in Nam, but he is not running his whole campagn on it either. Show us the records JFK – “Jane Fonda Kerry”.

  • David

    What’s most hilarious is these sleazey attacks on a combat veteran’s decorations come from people whose candidate/President (plus his Vice-Prez and most of his other generation pals) all politically SUPPORTED the ware in Vietnam and yet AVOIDED serving there. Where’s the outrage about W admittedly missing EIGHT months of National Guard “service.”

    What’s refreshing is that these jokers do not understand — even though it is being spelled out for them by General Zinni and John McCain — that this kind of gutter attack will backfire — that people find it repulsive. I guarantee you all Kerry needs to win this election is for 5 or 10 percent of Republicans to be appalled by the unnecessary and arrogant war which has destabilized Iraq, AND/OR to be angry about the squandered opportunity of four years of budget surplus being continued to help us prepare for the fully predictable budget crunch of the baby-boomer retirements. I dont even hang out with Republicans, and I know at least ten (some military officers, some intelligence officers, some “national security” academics) who quietly hope for W’s defeat. I’m beginning to wonder if it will even be close.

  • er777

    Let me point you to John McCain’s response to this garbage. Mudslinging of the lowest order , let’s remember Willie Horton – that’s OK come November we will be rid of the moron we have in the White House who was not elected but appointed. AND GUESS WHAT – IT WILL NOT EVEN BE A CLOSE ELECTION, polls notwithstanding. The harm that Bush has done to thus country’s principles image and economy is so gargatuan as to be tragic

  • lighten up

    sheesh and i thought i needed a life — you old farts need to understand: (a) vietnam is ancient history, and (b) US policy in Vietnam was obviously very very mistaken.

  • http://www.adamcharles.com moltar

    Whew. I would rather have a stalk of asparagus behind the President’s desk than the idiot who slimed his way in there in 2000. LOTS of people carried cameras and movie cameras in Nam; I was at a 1966 slide show given by a Green Beret who had found time to take pictures. Duh – it was other people who took pictures of Kerry. What, you think he ran up to them and said, here’s my camera, take a picture of me!

    We know what Bush’s record is like: it’s non-existent. Poof! And NO ONE has stepped forth to claim that they actually served with Bush in that Air Guard unit. How many people would that be? 50? 100? 1000? No one. Ever.

    Has Bush ever done anything to help this nation or his fellow man? 9/11? Excuse me? That guy who sat pretending to read a kiddie book for 7 minutes while the WTC burned – and then stayed 20 minutes more to sign autographs and chat? What sane person would do this? Do even rabid Freepers believe that Kerry would sit there like a deer in the headlights while the fucking WTC is being attacked?!

    What idiot hiring manager would pick a Harvard MBA who had run every business he touched into the GROUND, to be CEO of America? Right-wing idiots and “Christians” that have nothing to do with Christ-like behavior. And if that weren’t enough to tip the scales, we’ll just (heh-heh) double team ‘em, eh Jebbie-boy?

    For God’s sakes, people, he’s put us half a TRILLION dollars in debt, declared war on half of the WORLD when we can’t even handle Iraq, and tried to turn back every bit of social progress ever made by Democrats who had to fight tooth and nail to make it happen. We went straight off a cliff when this mumbling, coke-addled freak got Daddy’s friends at the Big Courthouse to put him in charge. Don’t let it happen again, because we are almost at the point where other countries won’t lend us many.

  • http://www.thehunterslife.com Sharon

    I tell you what… I can’t believe all the hatred directed towards a president who has seen us through the worst of times and I sure as heck DO NOT want a president who is nothing but an empty windbag who lies about everything and threw his purple hearts back into the face of AMERICA!!! I have NO respect for him and neither do any of the many Vietnam veterans I know. They despise him second only to Hanoi Jane Fonda!! And with good reason! I don’t care if he went over there.. its what you DID over there.. there are MANY hero’s that are the REAL thing. And by the way.. can you even imagine how utterly horrible it will be to have TERRRRAAAZZZZZZZAA Kerry as first lady? Laura Bush is a true Christian, ie: VERY Christ like woman and a genuine lady of the southern tradition. Notice will you please that these Kerry’s are FILTHY RICH and I mean unbelievable. that they will CARE or have a single CLUE how the working man and woman have to live??????? COME ON!!! I will be PROUD PROUD to be an American with George W. Bush as my commander in chief.. If Kerry wins.. I will be sicker than I have been in a long long time.. THINK PEOPLE!! THINK!!!!!

  • Max

    SWIFT BOAT VETERANS FOR “UNTRUTHS ABOUT KERRY” — this group of Vietnam
    vets is bought and paid for by Bush contributor and Houston homebuilder
    Bob Perry (2/3 of group’s funds are from Perry). GOP activist and
    corporate media consultant Merrie Spaeth is listed as the group’s media
    contact. She pushed the spurious anti-McCain ads in the 2000 primary
    which smeared McCain’s military service. Similar tactics were used
    against Georgia Sen. Max Cleland (who lost 3 limbs in Vietnam). (Bush
    supporters used another smear tactic in South Carolina during the 2000
    primary by posing as pollsters and insinuating that the child adopted
    by John and Cindy McCain from Mother Theresa’s orphanage in Bangladesh
    was McCain’s illegitimate black daughter. The child, Bridget, is
    dark-skinned.)

    NONE of the men in the ad were Kerry’s crewmates. ALL of the men
    supporting Kerry actually were crewmates. Earlier this year, veterans
    who served or knew Kerry in Vietnam complained that a Dallas-based
    private investigator (former FBI agent Thomas Rupprath) interviewed
    them, “twisting their words” in an effort to malign Kerry.

    About the vets in the TV ad:

    GEORGE ELLIOTT — In the 1969 U.S. Navy Officer Fitness Report signed
    by George Elliott, he wrote “In a combat environment requiring
    independent, decisive action LTJG Kerry was unsurpassed
    emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group.”
    In 1996, during Kerry’s re-election campaign to the Senate, Elliott
    praised Kerry.

    LOUIS LETSON — asked to verify his claims that he treated Kerry, has
    not produced any such documents nor is he listed on any documents as
    having treated Kerry.

    VAN O’DELL — says there was no enemy fire yet official Naval documents
    about the four boats involved in the March 13, 1969 incident
    specifically details the boats received “Heavy A/W (automatic weapons)
    and S/A (small arms) from both banks.”
    Describing that March day when he was blown off Kerry’s swift boat by a
    mine explosion, James Rassmann, a registered Republican who had not
    seen Kerry for over 30 years until a reunion in Iowa 2004, noted that
    bullets whizzed by him from both banks during the rescue by Kerry.

    JACK CHENOWITH — a “mysterious vet” who suddenly appeared from
    nowhere to smear Kerry’s account of what happened. But it’s not Kerry’s
    account it is Admiral Elmo Zumwalt’s and the Navy’s account.

    ROY HOFFMAN –In the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel (5/7/04) “Hoffman
    acknowledged he had no first-hand knowledge to discredit Kerry’s claims
    of valor
    didn’t know Kerry much personally.” Fellow vets described Hoffman as
    “bloodthirsty, hotheaded and egomaniacal” and former Sen. Bob Kerrey (a
    vet who served under Hoffman) said Hoffman was “a classic body count
    guy.”

    ADRIAN LONSDALE — in 1996, Lonsdale praised Kerry and “the courage of
    young officers that ran the boats.” (Kerry for Senate Press Conference
    10/27/96)

    BOB HILDRETH, LARRY THURLOW, BOB ELDER, JOE PONDER, GRANT HIBBARD were
    NOT crewmates on Kerry’s boats, yet the deceptive ad throws in their
    opinions about Kerry’s anti-war position after he returned from
    Vietnam, as if they were stating fact about his Vietnam service.

    In April 2004 the Toledo Blade was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for a
    series detailing the atrocities committed by American soldiers in
    Vietnam.

    8/3/04 On Fox News’ Hannity & Colmes, retired General and former
    Commander in Chief of Central Command Tommy Franks said he believed
    Kerry’s summary of what other soldiers told Kerry about atrocities in
    Vietnam. Franks added: “I’m not sure that — that activities like that
    didn’t take place. In fact I’m quite sure that they did.”

    When George Stepanopolous on ABC’s THIS WEEK asked Gen. Tommy Franks
    “If John Kerry is fit to be Commander in Chief?” Gen. Franks responded
    without hesitation, “Absolutely.”

    Jim Wasser, an actual Kerry crewmate, said: “If John Kerry came to us
    and said he had one more mission and we’re going to hell, he’d have a
    full crew.” –Dallas Morning News 7/29/04

  • steve

    60 veterens contributed to this book, and I believe them. Kerry started all this crap by using his so called miltary record to get votes. Now we can all see kind of fake this guy really is. And his wife? What a discusting bitch she is

  • http://www.rodneywelch.blogspot.com/ Rodney Welch

    Laugh of the day: “Notice will you please that these Kerry’s are FILTHY RICH and I mean unbelievable. that they will CARE or have a single CLUE how the working man and woman have to live???????” You mean, unlike the Bushs?

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    I sure as heck DO NOT want a president who is nothing but an empty windbag who lies about everything

    Me, too, Sharon, but Bush still may get re-elected in spite of what we both think.

    I’m confused about the medals, though – Bush was “AWOL in Alabama” so where would he have gotten medals?

  • boomcrashbaby

    Max, (comment 49), thanks for the refutation of the swift vets. I hope you don’t mind if I use this info elsewhere.

    Hmm, which is worse? A Commander in Chief who’s former military acquaintances (but not crewmates) are playing partisian politics in disagreeing with him, or a Commander in Chief who’s own father thinks he’s fucked things up? source

    (reposting this article from a related thread)

  • http://www.thehunterslife.com Sharon

    Don’t you find it in any way enlightening that NONE and I mean NOT ONE SINGLE MAN In Kerry’s chain of command finds him fit for the office of President??? I would say that is the most damning information to come to light. If even some had differed it would have been just like most things.. oppinion based on personal feelings but when NONE of them found the young and now the old John Kerry a good soldier? Again I say THINK! We are in a time of danger and unrest and I would be scared out of my wits to be under the leadership of someone who is UNFIT FOR DUTY and by his own admission got a silver medal for WHAT??? shooting a vc in the back as he ran away.. ohhh wow.. what a HERO… NOT!

  • jon thomas

    One person writes a book or makes a movie that casts President Bush in a bad light, Moore, Clark, Snow, Woodward, etc. and the media jumps on it as a great truism. When it turns out there are lies and exaggerations, the media ignores these facts. But when 60 Vietnam veterans, who served on swift boats challenge Kerry’s record, (Unfit for Command) they are condemned , called dis-respectful, un-American and so on. Why is it that these men do not have the same right to express their views against Kerry as others have against President Bush? John Kerry made his Vietnam service part of his campaign. If Kerry wants to stand on his Vietnam service, then he should sign the release and let everyone see his record and put an end to this issue.

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    Sharon, read this part of Max’s post again:

    BOB HILDRETH, LARRY THURLOW, BOB ELDER, JOE PONDER, GRANT HIBBARD were
    NOT crewmates on Kerry’s boats, yet the deceptive ad throws in their
    opinions about Kerry’s anti-war position after he returned from
    Vietnam, as if they were stating fact about his Vietnam service.

    They don’t like what Kerry did after he got back, but that has nothing to do with whether he was a “good soldier” or not. In fact, based on Navy records he appears to have been an excellent soldier.

    Don’t swallow the spin from the right. He may or may not make a good president, but lies like this do not tell us anything about that one way or the other.

  • http://www.foliage.com/~marks Mark Saleski

    yes, they’re being comdemned.

    …even in that dastardly hive of dishonest, america-hating liberalism:

    The Wall Street Journal

  • http://erols.com Jim

    I’m a VietNam vet and this arrogant spin stuff from the Bush crowd is getting stupid. 1. Fact: Kerry served in combat; Bush did not; 2) Fact: We were in Cambodia but the American public was told otherwise — I know because I was there and took care of troops who needed treatment; 3. Opinion: “The Unfit for Command” and Swift Boat oppos are working an agenda that does not even get close to meeting the standards that we fought for; 4. Opinion: Kerry stood up for and continues to stand for holding government accountable instead of going along to get along. Remember!

  • http://www.thehunterslife.com Sharon

    But HAL if he was genuinly a hero over in Vietnam, can’t you see those men are trying to tell you that what he did when he got HOME was even worse!!!??? I cannot believe that people can watch John Kerry’s own grandstanding never mind anybody elses’ oppinion… what he did was nothing short of traitorous… I wonder how many lives he COST as opposed to the one he saved when he went on his little trip overseas to join in with our enemies to denigrate his own country? It’s too bad we let him come back home from that one. I wish there was a way to say to people like John Kerry… if you don’t like it here and you don’t like us, your fellow countrymen.. if you aren’t proud to be an American… well ok… you are now.. what you seemed to have wanted to be by your actions.. a man without a country. I don’t want to give this man our entire country to run… I want a man in office who tells us and the rest of the world.. WE ARE AMERICANS AND DAMNED PROUD OF IT! Do we make mistakes? well YEAH.. does our President make mistakes.. welll YEAH.. why? because we are all HUMAN BEINGS!! However we are the greatest nation on earth for many reasons.. and I think we deserve a president who believes in US! pun intended and I KNOW we deserve a president who never for a second doubted us as a nation. John Kerry is on record as a traitor. Please, can’t yall see that????

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    “But SHARON” I have no objection to any number of people thinking that Kerry’s actions when he got back were less than admirable.

    I do object to the lie created by using that to communicate that his service for his country was less than honorable.

    Those doing that are despicable liars.

    Or do you think that’s fine and they’re the salt of the earth and true-blue Americans?

  • GiJoe

    Kerry is a fraud, a fake, and a liar. Vote for him, vote for the demise of the true United States.

  • JR

    I guess I don’t care for the “true United States”; I’d like the original one back please.

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    From a military culture standpoint, I think its worth clarifying that all the sailors mentioned, Kerry’s crew and the Swift Boat Vets, served in the same unit. The crew as Kerry’s subordinates, the SBVs as his peers and superiors. You can probably slice that fact about a zillion different ways.

  • Name

    comment 53:

    really good source Capital Hill Blue – Now that’s a news source I would base my voting information on.

  • boomcrashbaby

    to commenter 64:

    I wouldn’t base my voting information on a single article. I also wouldn’t base it on Unfit for Command, since they both seem to stem from ‘a really good source’, to use your words:

    From Wire Reports:

    One of the authors of a new anti-John Kerry book frequently posted comments on a conservative Web site describing Muslims and Catholics as pedophiles and Pope John Paul II as senile.

    The author of the book “Unfit for Command,” Jerry Corsi apologized for remarks in an interview with The Associated Press Tuesday, saying they were meant as a joke and he never intended to offend anyone. He frequently posted comments on a conservative Web site (free republic) describing Muslims and Catholics as pedophiles and Pope John Paul II as senile.

    In chat room entry last year on freerepublic.com, Corsi writes: “Islam is a peaceful religion – just as long as the women are beaten, the boys buggered and the infidels are killed.”

    In another entry, he says: “So this is what the last days of the Catholic Church are going to look like. Buggering boys undermines the moral base and the lawyers rip the gold off the Vatican altars. We may get one more Pope, when this senile one dies, but that’s probably about it.”

    In this case, one news source is as good as another, huh?

  • david

    actually the level of discourse in here is sobering — well, actually it’s pretty fucking depressing. Some people seem to believe and accept ANYTHING if it confirms and supports their candidate preference, with no capacity whatsoever to consider whether its true or false, exaggerated or a flat-out lie. The room might do much better if it discussed actual issue differences: I mean, the reasons I oppose Bush have to do with (a) turning 4 years of surpluses and the best budgetary position in 50 years into record-high deficits, PARTLY through tax cuts half of which went to the top one percent who are already extremely wealthy (aside: between 1980 and 1998, the top one percent of Americans saw their family incomes ALMOST TRIPLE, while the median family barely kept even (by putting spouses to work and working 2nd jobs) and the bottom 25 percent saw actua; income declines. (Source: Ellen Frank, RAW DEAL, Beacon Press, 2004). And this was BEFORE the two Bush tax cuts. Why do extremely wealthy people need even more money anyway, when 20 percent of US children live in poverty and 15 percent (the working poor, not the bottom 15 percent, who have Medicaid and SCHIP) have NO health insurance — in the richest country in the world.
    (b) Invading Iraq when all our Arab and Muslim allies publicly urged us NOT to do it, Generals like Zinni said it was a terrible idea, area specialists said it was precisely what Bin Laden wanted us to do, and everyone understood it would distract us and divert resources from Afghanistan where the Taliban would re-group and re-emerge. This was a truly unnecessary war which may still have disastrous outcomes (civil war, fragmentation, Kurdish v. Shia violence) and it served no US interest. The neocons were pursuing the national security interests of Israel AS DEFINED BY SHARON AND LIKUD, and this is precisely why we are hated by more and more people in the Islamic world. These are real issues, and as a 20-year-old, I’m tired of my professors saying my generation will definitely see the use of a weapon of mass destruction in the US against the US. The Palestinians do have some valid claims and we need to use leverage with Israel to try to reinvigorate the moderate center in Israeli politics.
    To be honest, I want to say WTF are you guys wasting your time talking about Vietnam for??????? No one under 35 cares, I assure you. And your generation was split not the middle, as this formum makes obvious. This kind of attack doesn’t help Bush, it will further discredit him with anyone is actually undecided, and the venom with which people are spewing it is repulsive even kinda shocking. Why won’t one of you Kerry-haters at least discuss why Bush’s lame record during Vietnam isn’t relevant and discrediting? I mean, whats with Bush, Cheney, Gingrich, Saxbe Chambliss, et al that these guys ALL favored the war in Vietnam, were of military age, and avoided serving there??? That doesn’t slow down any of you guys who question somebody’s three purple hearts and silver star??? Unfuckingbelievable.

  • mike

    Doesn’t anyone care if this is true? Or why you can’t hear about any of this on ABC/NBC/CBS. Sorry, I have no cable. I just found out today that Kerry wrote an anti-war book back in the 70’s. How come you don’t see anything about that on TV?

  • Jeff

    If everything in this Book is a LIE, or if only one little thing in this book is a LIE, sue them, show mr kerrys records.

    I can’t wait for that deposition!

    But it won’t ever happen, kerry doesn’t have the manhood to hold up his end of the Alligator Mouth, he should just shut up and let Soros and Te RAH za pay (buy) him out of difficulty. He won’t be shamed, it isn’t in him he is a True SNOB, look up the definition of SNOB, it is an acronym, and it is true… he was, is and allways will be a SNOB.

  • http://www.thehunterslife.com Sharon

    Look… it goes to character… what you do when things are heavy is what your made of. Maybe your too young to remember Vietnam, and certainly you haven’t learned to respect those older then you and wiser. John Kerry’s character is such that he ASKED for those medals.. and was given them on the basis of false info. John Kerry’s character is such that when he came home he betrayed his country and fellow soldiers. John Kerry’s character and record in the time he has been in Washington show no character at all just wishy washy… just like him going to vietnam and then joining in with our enemies to whine and cry. Maybe SOME of this information is old… but John Kerry himself is running on no solid ideas but on the gold medals and on the blood of true war heroes. Even if some of this is “OLD news” to you, remember a man is as he does, and this man is clearly to me.. unfit for command and as a matter of fact I wouldn’t care to have him as a friend. I have heard several times of his acting imperiously when met in person. Except for now of course when he wants to be the President. He is known to step into lines ahead of those already there and when they say what the heck!? he says do you KNOW who I AM????

    Bill CLinton was the same in office, imperious and hateful. Those who have observed George Bush come away with nothing but praise, about his kindness to staff. He is what you see, an all around nice person. He is not a person who looks like a rich Bassett Hound with a wife whose nose is so high in the air it is a wonder she don’t drown when it rains. Ok ok.. that last is mean of me but the other I do want to say clearly.. ALL of this information goes to show the character of this man and I for one.. see a fearful future if he is elected. He doesn’t even know what HE stands for not to mention what AMerica stands for.

  • http://www.foliage.com/~marks Mark Saleski

    He is not a person who looks like a rich Bassett Hound with a wife whose nose is so high in the air it is a wonder she don’t drown when it rains.

    yessirree, it’s all about character.

    …and it’s comments like these that say a lot about your own character.

  • http://www.thehunterslife.com Sharon

    hey come on I said myself that wasn’t nice of me. But my dear you failed to even absorb in the slightest the rest of what I said.

  • david

    sharon:

    you refuse to make any comment at all about what it says about W’s CHARACTER that he avoided service in Vietnam, a way he politically supported and still supports. This same CHARACTER “quality” you can see in Cheney (who also AVOIDED service in Vietnam), Gingrich (ditto), Trent Lott (ditto), Saxbe Chambliss (ditto, and this is the creep/US Senator who defeated Max Cleland by running commercials questioning his patriotism (a draft dodger questioning the patriotism of a triple-amputee Vietnam vet). How come almost all the “leaders” you guys follow and support are actual AVOIDERS of Vietnam service, and why can you say nothing about that odd coincidence or what it says about their character.

    There is also one other point that you and most of those posting here who agree with you absolutely miss: to criticize the American intervention in Vietnam IS IN NO WAY TRAITOROUS, OR EVEN ANTI-PATRIOTIC. The war was a huge mistake, based on incredible ignorance of Southeast Asian historic realities.

    You don’t like his wife, and John Kerry probably is a snob and a cold fish socially — but his intelligence is not in question, nor, in my judgment is his courage. He asked for the medals? Well, big f’king deal — he ASKED to serve in Vietnam… he ASKED to serve in combat. When you get a candidate who did the same, let us know. Questioning the courage of this guy is the biggest tactical blunder you guys could possibly make. It might have worked for W’s crowd to have phone banks in the 2000 SC primary make calls to voters and mis-describe the fact that the McCains have adopted a Bengali daughter by saying “McCain has a black daughter” but it ain’t gonna work to say the USN passes out THREE bogus purple hearts, bogus Silver Stars, etc etc.

    Have at it — you guys have no idea at all how you come across to people under 35 or to people over 35 who see any shread of complexity or ambiguity in the Vietnam debacle.

    I am very much against Bush’s re-election, and have had no especially strong feelings for Kerry, but I havta say to see the venom and sheer rabid bullshit he’s having to endure makes me respect him more for having to put up with this kind of crap. Of course the book and the ad campaign are financed by the same extremely wealthy people who benefitted from Bush’s tax cuts for the highest-income one percent. Oh, you forgot to say anything about that, either.

    This board makes me despair for democracy, but at least we’re going to have an election that will tell us if Lincoln was right or wrong.

  • mike

    I got a tax cut. I made about $80k last year. So I’m in the top 8.5% of all tax payers….the richest of the rich…Bush’s buddies. Why should I feel bad about it? I went to college and got two engineering degrees. Why am I evil? Why should I pay more? Isn’t the 28% bracket high enough for me? Why am I Kerry’s target? What did I do?

  • Gaucho

    Gentlemen,

    I was a Scout pilot in Vietnam, for the First Cavalry Division. I am here to point out that reconnaissance missions are not for the faint of heart. They are not safe, by any means!

    Pushing a small aircraft up a valley, or pushing a fiberglass hull up some river are risky procedures.

    That said, I personally would not run for office based on my abilities to run patrols for a year, and certainly not if I opted out after a couple of months.

    As for films — when one hits the s***, there is too much going on to be taking pictures, never mind movies with an 8mm camera.

    Even in its best light, Senator Kerry’s posture over his service is inadequate for any decision on whether he could be a good President or not.

    His record as Lt. governor of Massachusetts; his record in the Senate would be a better criteria.

    During the convention, he and his handlers chose to avoid those criteria.

    Whatever your thoughts are on the matter, I do urge one and all to go VOTE.

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    Pay attention, Mike. Your $80K is less than, not more than, the $200,000 minimum Kerry is talking about.

  • http://www.Georgebush.com Four more years

    It is not Drudge putting out this book. It is 60 veterans.
    It was just fine to accuse the President of being AWOL but when 60 decorated veterans who severed their full tour of duty (kerry went home early after only four months)want to put out the truth about kerry all you liberals are crying. The President release his records showing that he was not AWOL. These accusations were shown to be complete lies. Are you going to believe six soldiers over 60?

  • Distorted Angel

    Actually, I’m going to believe the veterans who stood with Kerry at the Democratic convention. Why do you find them to be less credible than the guys who wrote this book? They served their time, too.

  • boomcrashbaby

    It is not Drudge putting out this book. It is 60 veterans.

    Actually it is neither. It’s a right-wing freerepublic analyst who received his financing from a right wing group.

    Are you going to believe six soldiers over 60?

    Refer to comment #49. I’m more likely to believe the Kerry vets, because they have been consistent throughout, and I’m less likely to believe the swiftvets because they say one thing throughout the years, but then only change their tune when Kerry runs for president.

  • http://www.kolehardfacts.blogspot.com Mike Kole

    Let’s face it, most people don’t really care what the facts are. Consider:

    If John Kerry was filmed soliciting a prostitute, denied it happened, and then later admitted that it did happen, would Boom, Hal, Dirtgrain, Mac, or any other staunch Democrat begin denouncing Kerry and advocate supporting George W. Bush?

    If George W. Bush was filmed snorting lines while in the Presidential motorcade, denied it happened, and then later admitted it did happen, would RJ, EvilWhiteGuy, Jeremy Chrysler, or any other staunch Republican begin denouncing Bush and advocate supporting John F. Kerry?

    Didn’t think so. And the topic being discussed still shouldn’t matter in light of both men having a record to run on. That the partisans are so eager to forget about policy and dig in their heels so firmly on this is a sad indication of the level of the National Enquirizing of public discourse.

  • http://calblog.com Justene

    I voted for Clinton in 92 because of Iran Contra. I voted against him in 96 (and it was painful voting for Dole) because of his various character issues. When Clinton won in 96, I said to my husband on that day “he has so many problems, he’s sure to be impeached before he’s done.” My husband thought I was nuts. No one really gets impeached.

    I liked Gore and was undecided until late.

    Bush snorting lines would be a huge issue for me. It’d be tough to go to Kerry. I’d be clamoring for the Republicans to put up a replacement candidate.

    I still wish Cheney would go. My efforts to get support for that in the blogosphere failed miserably.

    Both these issues here — Kerry’s Purple Heart and Bush Awol — are too old to move me. You couldn’t predict what I would do based on what I was doing 20 years ago.

  • boomcrashbaby

    If John Kerry was filmed soliciting a prostitute, denied it happened, and then later admitted that it did happen, would Boom, Hal, Dirtgrain, Mac, or any other staunch Democrat begin denouncing Kerry and advocate supporting George W. Bush?

    I can’t speak for anybody else, but no, it would have no effect on me. I didn’t look at Clinton during the Monica thing any less than I did before. I still think he’s probably the greatest president I will ever see in my lifetime. I understand that people take issues with these things because of ‘moral character’. I do know people who have been unfaithful to their spouse, my dad was, it broke up my parents marriage, but I know my dad’s character and how he is moral, wise, etc. I don’t know how to put it into words, and I’m probably not your typical voter, but no, I don’t think a person’s inability to be a saint in this day and age disqualifies one from a job filled with responsibility.

    People say ‘but Clinton lied’. People say ‘but Kerry is lying’. People say ‘Bush lies’. Guess what folks, people lie. I’m not excusing lying, but I look deeper. Lying about a blowjob or a prostitute is not the equivalent as lying about evidence for war or an agenda that alters the global arena. It’s just not the same to me.

    If George W. Bush was filmed snorting lines while in the Presidential motorcade, denied it happened, and then later admitted it did happen, would RJ, EvilWhiteGuy, Jeremy Chrysler, or any other staunch Republican begin denouncing Bush and advocate supporting John F. Kerry?

    I don’t think this is an accurate analogy compared with the Kerry one. Kerry is not advocating a war on sex. We don’t have a Prostitute Czar. If George was my neighbor and snorted coke, that’s no problem with me. Coke can alter your way of thinking, so it is different in terms of making national decisions than dropping trou. Also, George is running on a ‘I am a moral character designated by God to lead you’ platform, and lists Jesus as his favorite (but apparently unread) philosopher, so I would see this as hypocrisy. (additional hypocrisy). I wouldn’t care in either instance about them lying about it, though. It’s the action in one case that would make the difference.

    Lying about reasons for war, I care about. A man lying because of sex is no surprise to me.

  • Andrew

    I find a picture of Kerry taken with 19 other Swift boat officers he served directly with very revealing. Of the 17 officers still alive, 1 supports Kerry, 4 have no comment and 12 have actively taken a stance that Kerry is “unfit to command.” This goes beyond merrily stating they disapprove of Kerry, these individuals have gone so far as to make public statements. 71 percent! There has to be some kind of a story as to why so many officers directly involved with Kerry hold such a strong negative opinion of the man 35 years later that they have actively chosen to campaign against him. You should think these people would be his best allies.

    Typically I would agree that even if there is a dark side to Kerry’s Vietnam record, it shouldn’t be very relevant, however since every third sentence Kerry utters has the word Vietnam in it, it would seem he brought it on himself. Is it a wise strategy to base his campaign on Vietnam when so many Vietnam vets seem to dispise the man?

  • roman

    It’s a right wing conspiracy.
    AmeriKans for Kerry.
    Silence the 254!

    Clinton proves character doesn’t count.
    It doesn’t matter.

    Kerry lied. 2 million Cambodians died.

    Vote Kerry. Support Fatmoore. Support Soros. (only his money should count).

  • david

    Actually I find the posts 79 and 80 (Mike K and Justene) thoughtful and hopeful, and I don’t agree with Justene’s candidate preference and Mike doesn’t even express one. I did see Carville go after Jon O’Neill (one of the authors of UNFIT FOR COMMAND) and absolutely devastate him (he admitted he had never even met or seen Kerry while they were in Vietnam, and on an earlier show when his co-author Corsi was exposed as a documented anti-Catholic anti-Semite etc etc, O’Neill tried to say Corsi was only the editor not the co-author, so Carville showed him the umpteen places on the book and jacket where Corsi is the co-author (as he is in the logo above). On the other hand, I think a lot of this has to come from Vietnam vets who resent even despise Kerry for his subsequent work in Vietnam Vets Against the War, but NOT because of anything they knew about him at the time of his service in Vietnam.

    So maybe this will pass on and the public can discuss Najaf, the deficit, what to do in Afghanistan, global AIDs, outsourcing, or the 1 million plus jobs that we are still missing from the 2001 peak. For the ABB crowd (Anybody But Bush — and, face it, not many of us are wild about Kerry we just think/hope he can win) I highly recommend Maureen Dowd’s new book, BUSHWORLD, mostly her NY Times columns from the past four years and delightfully venomous and on-target. Especially good is her parody of the Supreme Court’s discussion before its 5-4 vote making W the prez.

    One last thought, tonight on Fox it was dawning on O’Reilly and even Hannity (sp?) that Bush is behind in some critical polls — all five polls show him behind in Florida, and other polls show him trailing Kerry something like 54-35 among young Americans (18-30). As a member of that group, I can tell you that is consistently what I pick up among my friends alot of whom aint too political or ideological, except mebbe about music. O’Reilly had a guest who was whistlin in the dark that Bush might pick up some increased support among the young when he starts talking next week about privatizing a portion of social security accounts — my gf laughed out loud — trust me, no one who’s 20 believes he’s ever going to be 30, much less thinks/cares about social security and retirement. Don’t believe this, check with any MILLION 20-year-olds of your choice. So it’s beginnin to dawn on the Fox Bushies that their W is goin down….. god, if it had only been before Iraq

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    If John Kerry was filmed soliciting a prostitute, denied it happened, and then later admitted that it did happen, would Boom, Hal, Dirtgrain, Mac, or any other staunch Democrat begin denouncing Kerry and advocate supporting George W. Bush?

    I’m not a Democrat, but even with your hypothetical, I’d still be against Bush.

    Bush is an incompetent liar.

    He lied to get this country behind his (the neocon) invasion of Iraq, diverting resources from the war on terror and increasing the danger from terrorism “here” by wasting resources and American lives and good will “there.”

    There there’s the deficit, trade, jobs and just about anything else that matters – he has done a bad job and there is no evidence that he is capable of doing better.

    Wouldn’t you want to fire an employee who had done so badly for so long?

  • http://www.kolehardfacts.blogspot.com Mike Kole

    There hasn’t been a President that I have liked my entire life long, so I’ve wanted to fire each one of them every time I stepped into the balloting area.

    I am a philosophical libertarian, so rarely will I be particularly drawn by any non-Libertarian Presidential candidate. Also, I have not found myself to be more repelled by any President or candidate than any other.

    None seems to have been an economic superior than any other in recent history. They’ve all hired Greenspan when they’ve had the chance. None has reduced the size of the Federal Government. None has made a literal commitment to eliminate the deficit. Each has had a foreign policy that includes adventuring, defending other nations on our dime, and being the world’s cop. These are the things that matter to me in a President, and all of the major party candidates share the same premises for policy, with the only differences lying in areas of emphasis and application, and in degrees. So, every President in my lifetime, from LBJ on down, has been incompetent on a great many levels. To single out Bush as particularly agregious strikes me a blind partisanship, as does predicting that Kerry would be incompetent.

    Then again, in this campaign, they aren’t even talking policy, so in that sense, my contempt for the candidates’ campaigns is somewhat elevated over those in past years. It does concern me that each camp paints the other as dishonorable, because at some point, most folks with analytical capabilities will have to agree with both sides.

  • http://none jc

    What a waste. You people will argue and argue and argue without ever resolving anything. Everybody has their opinions already.
    Kerry exaggerated his war exploits.
    Bush was selective in his disclosures about Iraq.
    This election comes down to issues that the political parties represent, not to the personalities of the candidates.
    Democrats see the government as something that solves problems.
    Republicans see the government as something that causes problems.
    The choice we need to make in this election is if we want more or less government for the next 4 years.

  • http://www.intersectcommerce.com Sarah

    It does seem that many of the politically motivated do not want anyone to read this book. Nor does the media ever allow any of these men to finish a story or sentence,(example the unprofessional Chris Matthews last evening). I will definitely read the book, because 4 months and 5 medals/ribbons seems a little hard to believe. Especially for a swiss prep school boy.

  • http://www.rodneywelch.blogspot.com/ Rodney Welch

    Will Kerry sue the Swift Boat veterans?

    According to a guy in The New Republic

    Kerry would have a fairly strong case. As the Supreme Court ruled in New York Times v. Sullivan and in subsequent cases, to prove libel a public figure must show that what was written or said about him was false and that those who said it had “actual malice;” that is that they knew it was false and had reckless disregard for that fact. At this point, we only can assume that the SBVT knew what it was saying was false: One member of the group has already called his participation in the ad a “terrible mistake;” that same veteran and another one in the ad actually defended Kerry from similar charges in his 1996 Senate race; another gave Kerry exemplary ratings as an officer; and none of them have ever initiated official proceedings to challenge the Navy’s decision to award Kerry these medals.

    More critical to going forward with a case, from what we know about the two central factual claims made in the ad, we can say more definitively that they are false.

    First, Medical Officer Lewis Letson states that: “I know John Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated him for that injury.” Letson offers no proof for his assertion, just details about the dates and places surrounding the injury that are readily available. More damning is that according to official Navy records, Kerry was treated by another medical officer; Letson was not the medical professional who signed Kerry’s “sick call sheet.”

    Second, Gunner’s Mate Van O’Dell says that: “John Kerry lied to get his Bronze Star. I know, I was there, I saw what happened.” O’Dell did not serve on Kerry’s boat, but was on another boat in his division. O’Dell claims to have witnessed the entire incident in which Kerry won his Bronze Star. Yet, his account does not show up in any official Naval documents–from the spot reports filed immediately after the incident that detail damage to two boats, including Kerry’s, and Kerry’s injury report to the eyewitness accounts of Jim Rassman, the man who Kerry pulled out of the river. Either O’Dell is right, and Rassman, Kerry, and the US Navy are wrong–or O’Dell has a big legal problem on his hands.

  • ROJ

    Turnabout is fair play. Kerry should make any documentation available as Bush did with the guard records. If he has nothing to hide he should be eager to demonstrate it to his critics. It’s curious how both parties go on fishing (or should I say dredging) expeditions and simutaniously chastize their counterparts for the practice they themselves are doing. There seems no limit to claiming the “high ground” when both parties are in the ditch. All this silly dialog on totally unimportant issues serves to distract everyone from the important things.

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    Kerry has posted his records; where was Bush at the time?

    I guess this is never going to go away, though:

    Veterans Blast Attack On Kerry’s War Record
    A downtown press conference by the Bush Truth Squad to criticize President Bush’s support for military personnel and veterans grew into a gathering that summarized a host of anti-war sentiments by Siouxlanders.

    Three military veteran speakers addressed what they called failures to fund the troops and veterans benefits and touted Democratic Party presidential candidate John Kerry’s war experience.

    Both sides have said all service records of the candidates have been made public. [Sioux City Journal 8/14/04]

  • Steve Olson

    About a week ago I got an unsolicited E-mail from someone called “Don Blankenship,” asking me to sign up to attack John Kerry. He’s from Houston, and knows John O’Neill. I’m from Maine, and drive tugboats for a living. After a bit of back and forth, “Don” lost interest in our conversation. I’m including the last thing I sent him, because it has some information the the military careers of presidents.
    seo
    Don,
    There seems to be two elements to your organization’s attacks on Kerry. One is that Kerry was a bad soldier, I guess you accuse him of cowardice, and of perjury and making false reports, which are crimes. The second part is that Kerry opposed the war after returning from Vietnam.
    Seems to me that anyone who volunteered for combat duty in a war zone earned the right to have an opinion on it and express them. If he chose to throw his decoration ribbons away, well, they had been awarded to him, and they were his to dispose of as he pleased.
    Does either of these things make it likely that Kerry would not make a good president? The last president who was a bona fide Naval Hero was John Kennedy. He really did save his crew, and really did volunteer to return to combat, driving PT59 (converted into a gunboat) on quite a few combat missions. But you probably dont think much of Kennedy.
    On the other hand, Reagan and Clinton both avoided military service, and Bush 2 avoided combat. You probably like two of them, and not the other.
    Johnson got a Silver Star in very peculiar circumstances, and probably didn’t deserve it. He was a naval officer and a congressman at the same time, and he flew as an observer on a very hairy bombing raid from New Guinea against Rabaul. Nobody else got a medal, and he got his directly from Mac Arthur, who was a very political guy.
    It’s possible to argue that Kennedy was a well-connected guy, and wouldn’t have been decorated if his father wasn’t a rich man. I once asked a family friend who had commanded a PT boat at Tulagi in the same unit with Kennedy whether he shouldn’t have been decorated for saving his crew, and then court martialed for allowing his boat to be run over. His reply was that their tactics were completely screwed up, their torpedoes didn’t work, and nobody knew what to do. In that situation it was a case of a bunch of jg’s inventing tactical doctrine. My friend (Garfield) actually invented the system of getting rid of the torpedo tubes, and simply putting the torpedoes in open pipe racks. The torpedoman would start them up, and when the skipper shouted he would roll them over the side. It didn’t work, but it worked slightly better than the tubes. It didn’t matter, because the torpedoes were equipped with defective detonators, and wouldn’t explode if they hit something. In those circumstances, someone who was willing to take a wooden boat filled with gasoline and defective weapons out stalking destroyers at night was given a great deal of slack if things went wrong.
    George HW Bush was also a decorated combat veteran, but there seems to be some question about his decorations. I include the article below:

    “Chester Mierzejewski, an old war buddy of Bush, who said he was angered by the ‘false assertions’ made by candidate Bush when describing the incident, gave a different account. After 44 years of silence, Mierzejewski, who also was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross, told the NY Post that Bush had abandoned his crew to death when there was another choice. He said he was approximately 100 feet in front of Bush’s plane as the turret gunner for Squadron Commander Douglas Melvin’s plane, ‘so close he could see in the cockpit’ of Bush’s bomber. Mierzejewski’s close wartime buddy was one of the two crew members in Bush’s plane… He saw ‘a puff of smoke’ come from Bush’s plane which quickly disappeared and was certain only one man parachuted from the plane and that it was Bush, the pilot. Mierzejewski said the Avenger torpedo bomber was engineered so that it could successfully crash land on water and that Bush doomed his own crew by bailing out and leaving the bomber out of control.”

    I’ve asked people about this who flew TBM’s, and their explanation is that the turret gunner and tunnel gunner/radioman were in such tight spaces that they couldn’t wear their parachutes. The only way that they had a chance was if the pilot held the plane level while they got out of their combat stations, got into their chutes, and then bailed out. Then the pilot (who wore a parachute) could open his canopy, roll over, and bail out. If the pilot bailed out first the plane would go out of control and the crew would have no chance to get out. This was not unique to the TBM. All the WWII army bomber gunners worked without parachutes, particularly the ball turret gunners. The ball gunners could be trapped in their turrets if the planes lost power, and their only chance was if the waist gunners would take the time to manually crank the ball around to where the gunner could climb out.
    It was important to morale for the crew to believe that the pilots would risk their precious officers’ asses to give the crew time to bail out before they did. For Bush to have panicked and deserted his crew to death was not unusual, and probably understandable for a young man. That he was never charged might have had something to do with the fact that his father was a U.S. Senator.
    So was George H.W. Bush a naval hero? Dunno. Compared to what? John Kerry? George W. Bush? Once again, does it matter? Personally I think that it probably does, but maybe not in the way that people say in the current context.
    seo

  • Dewade Sayles

    I served on river boats in Vietnam and after the DNC I was pretty incredulous that Kerry would run on his so called war record. The man had confessed to war crimes, accused his fellow swifties of same and now wants us to believe he is fit for command. Bush at least had the brains and guts to fly high performance fighters: The F-102, not exactly the easiest nor safest supersonic jet to fly. While not going to Vietnam is now somehow a negative campaign issue for the dems I wonder how 4 mos. of pussyfooting around the delta, some dubious claims of purple heartdom make commander and chief material out of the ol’ frogman? The man cannot run on his crappy senate record nor as baggage handler for Dukakis. Bush has made his own millions and married a librarian, Kerry had to marry someone who all but killed her meal ticket with her looks and mouth. The dems and those who vote for that party live a life of lies. They have to rely on the uneducated and too stupids for votes, God help this nation if we lose W. Bush this time around.

  • Dan

    Well, at least Kerry still has the “hamster rescue” to his credit. None who were present dispute his valour in that episode. Of course rumor has it that “hamster doe” went on to sire many illegitimate offspring which he never provided any financial support for. The last anyone heard he bottomed out in some “clinic” somewhere, pounding levers to support a cocaine habit.

  • boomcrashbaby

    The man had confessed to war crimes

    I didn’t know that. If he did, then how come conservatives don’t respect someone telling the truth? I’ll tell you why, because they rant and rave about liberals being ‘slick’ and lying, but then when someone tells the truth, they say ‘aha! what a cad’. It’s a no-win situation, so why bother to placate the right anymore? Absolutely nothing makes them happy except an unachievable ideal.

    Also, what does it say about this country when a person confesses to war crimes and does not serve any time for it? Does it mean they are lying and Kerry really didn’t do any war crimes, or does it mean that this great nation doesn’t give a hoot about a politican being a war criminal? Because Kerry wasn’t punished for war crimes then either:
    a) he didn’t do them.
    b) nobody cares, so let’s get back to talking about how Bush is fucking this country up.

  • Dan

    “Absolutely nothing makes them happy except an unachievable ideal.”

    Conducting yourself honorably, negating the need for lying is an unachievable ideal?

  • Dewade Sayles

    That gutless pos confessed but he confessed for every other tom, dick and harry who served over there for shit that did not happen. But suprisingly he left out the war crime he alone committed: shooting an unarmed civilian. The guy is not only a liar, but backstabber as well. He would have no problems selling out this country for personal fame, Kerry would do it on his hands and knees to al queda if he thought it would get him elected, after all he did it to those idiot commies in Vietnam. BTW, this behavior we have not seen from Bush.

  • boomcrashbaby

    Apparently not lying is an unachievable ideal in politics. Bush lied about WMD. His adminstration lies about terror threats when politically convenient. He lied on the platform of ‘compassionate conservatism’ (modifying the constitution to exclude is not compassionate, and ballooning the government far more than any Democrat could is not conservatism), quite frankly, I don’t think Bush has ever spoken the truth.

    Also, if right-wing commenters at BlogCritics are certain that Kerry committed the war crime of shooting an unarmed civilian, and they seem to have this information when the government did not have this information, does not have this information now, and has not acted on said information in 3 decades, tells me that the right-wingers here are lying too.

  • Dewade Sayles

    Bush lied about everything? Kinda a rash assertion considering every western power and intelligence agency agreed Saddam had wmds all through the nineties and even after 911. The big disagreement was when to remove the bacterial scum known as Saddam. Just because they hid them or sold them off doesn’t mean they somehow ‘magically’ were not there.

    An aside; people, this is the info age, we are not stuck with that crock and relic cronkite and his skewed worldview or with ratherlies or the rest of those soap opera figures. People can find the truth or there are networks that tell the truth.

    As far as kerry’s blatent lies about his whole 4 mos. in neverland and oh’ my gosh papercut wounds and HIS testimony, go look it up nitwit

  • boomcrashbaby

    As far as kerry’s blatent lies about his whole 4 mos. in neverland and oh’ my gosh papercut wounds and HIS testimony, go look it up intellectual genius

    Why? It bugs you, not me.

  • Dan

    well yes, I guess if you work from a fringe left dictionary, lies abound! If Bush said the grass is green and the sky is blue, it could be a lie. (in Winter, grass is brown, and an overcast sky is often gray) But then, it could depend on what the definition of is, is.

    Of course, on the other hand, if a liberal like Kerry simply retracts his oft repeated ‘lonely Christmas night in Cambodia’ statement and now claims (as he does) that it was really January “near” the Cambodian border, presto chango, it’s not a lie. He was just confused. Admitedly a natural state for liberals.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “I didn\’t know that. If he did, then how come conservatives don\’t respect someone telling the truth? I\’ll tell you why, because they rant and rave about liberals being \’slick\’ and lying, but then when someone tells the truth, they say \’aha! what a cad\’. It\’s a no-win situation, so why bother to placate the right anymore? Absolutely nothing makes them happy except an unachievable ideal.”

    It’s hardly an “unachievable ideal” to NOT COMMIT WAR CRIMES. You know?

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “Apparently not lying is an unachievable ideal in politics. Bush lied about WMD”

    Well, that’s a pretty blatant lie…

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “His adminstration lies about terror threats when politically convenient.”

    Cite?

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “Also, if right-wing commenters at BlogCritics are certain that Kerry committed the war crime of shooting an unarmed civilian, and they seem to have this information when the government did not have this information, does not have this information now, and has not acted on said information in 3 decades, tells me that the right-wingers here are lying too.”

    The person Kerry killed was not unarmed. But he was apparently wounded and fleeing. Kerry shot him in the back. And he was a young boy. And Kerry got a medal for doing so. A medal he PRETENDED to throw away at an anti-Vietnam veteran protest.

  • boomcrashbaby

    well, see Dan, there you go! Now that we both realize that ‘presto chango’ it’s not a lie, but just a confused sentence, we can drop the whole Vietnam thing and get back to talking about how Bush is destroying the foundations of America.

  • Dan

    Sorry Boom, but that’s your reality, not mine.

    We can discuss Kerry’s strong leadership qualities. Which way did he vote on Bush’s evil exclusionary Constitutional modification? Oh, that’s right, he didn’t want to commit. Well, I guess a good leader knows when to lay low.

  • Dewade Sayles

    It doesn’t bug me, I know the man kerry is not cut out for leadership, I also know by experience Bush is. Good Luck!

  • jwcdan

    Now I just skimmed through most of the statements here and i don’t know if anybody mentioned this yet. Now in this book it claims that John Kerry lied about being in Cambodia in 1968. They base there info on his speech that he made to the senate in 1986 saying that Nixon lied about troops being in Cambodia. The truth of this statement is that Nixon wasn’t in office in 1968, Kerry didn’t say that Nixon was in office in 1968. Anybody with half-a-brain can see that he clearly meant that when Nixon was in office he lied about troops EVER being in Cambodia, and John Kerry said that he was in Cambodia in 1968. Now, I don’t know how truthful John Kerry is about that, but I’d take his word on it since he is a Veitnam vet unlike our president. And I’ve got another comment, According to somebody at the very top of the page, the dems are hypocrits for bashing Bush. Honestly I think everyone has the right to criticize there president, left wing or right wing. But my point is after all you right-winged nutjobs got done with clinton for have a young woman come onto him, wat should the dems do now?

  • http://www.swiftvets.com Steve

    DECORATED VETS EXPOSE KERRY

    Decorated vets expose John Kerry as a FRAUD AND UNFIT TO COMMAND

    220 OUT OF 229 SWIFT BOAT VETERANS CONDEMN KERRY AS UNFIT TO COMMAND

    Many of the group were wounded in combat and are highly decorated veterans. They are resisting the attempt by John Kerry and the Democrats to suppress their side of the story and reveal the truth.

    Rear Admiral Roy Hoffmann (ret.), founder and chairman of the organization, said, “We purchased with our blood and service the right to be heard, to set the record straight about our unit, and to tell the TRUTH about John Kerry’s military service record.”

    INCREDIBLY, THE ENTIRE CHAIN OF COMMAND CONDEMNS KERRY AS UNFIT TO COMMAND.

    All the Swift Boat veterans “personally” knew Kerry and signed a letter with their firsthand eyewitness accounts.

    http://www.swiftvets.com

    DO YOU BELIEVE KERRY WHO HAS A HISTORY OF “LYING” OR 220 DECORATED VETS???

    IT’S KERRY VS. 220 DECORATED VETS. DO THE MATH

    http://www.swiftvets.com
    http://kerry-04.org/war/shipmates.php
    http://www.powmiafamiliesagainstjohnkerry.com
    http://www.kerrylied.com
    http://www.wintersoldier.com
    http://www.vnsfvetakerry.com
    http://www.kerryoniraq.com
    http://www.kerrycore.com/
    http://www.vetsagainstkerry.org
    http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.com
    http://www.25thaviation.org/johnkerry/
    http://www.firefightersforbush.com/
    http://www.usvetdsp.com/jf_kerry.htm
    http://www.evangelicaloutpost.com/archives/000314.html
    http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/staticpages/index.php?page=20040515063551324
    http://www.hanoijohnkerry.com/petitiontext.html
    http://swift1.he.net/~swiftvet/index.php
    http://www.strangecosmos.com/images/content/16574.jpg
    http://www.stopjohn.com/movies/hanoi-john.htm

  • http://www.kerrylied.com Steve

    KERRY LIED WHILE GOOD MEN DIED

    John Kerry told the world that American soldiers were war criminals who raped, tortured and murdered in Vietnam. Now, thirty-three years later, we will tell America the truth. Join us at the rally we call:

    KERRY LIED . . . while good men died

    A gathering of Vietnam veterans from across America

    http://www.kerrylied.com
    http://www.swiftvets.com

    VVT represents the “majority” of Vietnam veterans who stand in opposition to John Kerry’s bid for the White House and who deem him UNFIT to be America’s Commander-in-Chief. VETERANS CONDEMN KERRY AS UNFIT TO COMMAND.

    Where: Upper Senate Park, Washington, D.C. It is easy to get to, shady and pretty, with a great view of the Capitol dome in back of the speaker’s platform.

    When: Sunday, Sept 12, 2004 2:00-4:00 PM (EDT)

    Why: To tell the truth about Vietnam veterans.
    To counter the lies told about Vietnam veterans by John Kerry

  • http://www.hanoijohnkerry.com/petitiontext.html Steve

    KERRY = RELEASE “ALL” YOUR RECORDS

    America is demanding that John Kerry release the following records for the best interest of the public:

    1. ALL of your military records. Yes, “ALL” of them not just a few pages as you have “selectively” provided. ALL!!!! We request that you authorize the Department of the Navy to independently release your military records (through your execution of Standard Form 180), complete and unaltered, including your military medical records.

    ALL…….ALL………ALL PAGES…….ALL…………

    http://www.hanoijohnkerry.com/petitiontext.html

    2. Your divorce records = Reports are circulating that John Kerry beat his first wife. An effort is being made by a number of concerned women and others to obtain a copy of Kerry’s divorce papers. Abuse of women is a crime.

    THE GROUNDS FOR THE DIVORCE? SECRET? ALL PAGES, NOT JUST SELECT PAGES OF YOUR CHOICE.

    ALL PAGES……..ALL……….ALL PAGES………..ALL!!!!

    JOHN YOU HAVE BEEN STONEWALLING AS USUAL!

    http://www.hanoijohnkerry.com/petitiontext.html
    http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_2003_Sept_16/ai_107543547

    John, what are you hiding??

  • http://www.kalyr.com/weblog Tim Hall

    I’m guessing “Steve” is a troll from Free Republic.

  • Dewade Sayles

    kerry is a liar plain and simple. The man tried to use his whole 4 mos. in wonderland to fool the country into believing he is ‘fit’ for office. Well now the secret is out and he is outed for what he is: a typical democratic candidate who has to lie and sell his ass for candidacy and have any chance of winning. With the democratic half of this country breathing their own flatulence up close and personal its no wonder the likes of kerry even has half a chance at winning enough electoral votes for the Presidency.
    Sad but true most democrats literally vote with their wombs, bung holes or bong pipes and the candidate willing to consume the afterbirth, suck on someone’s pipe water or bong fumes gathers a willing population of latent dulled out neanderthal zombies who have the inate ability to pull a lever or maybe even punch some holes in tree carcasses, yeah…

  • http://www.geocities.com/presidentialintegrity2004/ American
  • A. Scribe

    Not that many people here are interested in the truth, but I’m still going to recommmend the website http://factcheck.org to just about everyone who’s “contributed” to this thread.

    All the site does is compare the claims, of Democrats and Republicans, with actual evidence, but it’s an interesting exercise.

    An exerpt regarding Kerry supposedly being awarded the Silver Star for “shooting someone in the back;”

    _____________________________

    The official citations show Kerry was not awarded the Silver Star “for simply pursuing and dispatching” the Viet Cong. In fact, the killing is not even mentioned in two of the three versions of the official citation (see “supporting documents” at right.) The citations – based on what Elliott wrote up at the time – dwell mostly on Kerry’s decision to attack rather than flee from two ambushes, including one in which he led a landing party.

    The longest of the citations, signed by Vice Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, commander of U.S. naval forces in Vietnam, describes Kerry as killing a fleeing Viet Cong with a loaded rocket launcher. It says that as Kerry beached his boat to attack his second set of ambushers, “an enemy soldier sprang up from his position not ten feet from Patrol Craft Fast 94 and fled. Without hesitation, Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY leaped ashore, pursued the man behind a hooch, and killed him, capturing a B-40 rocket launcher with a round in the chamber.”

    Two other citations omit any mention of the killing. One was signed by Admiral John J. Hyland, commander in chief of the Pacific Fleet, and the other was signed by Secretary of the Navy John Chafee. Both those citations say Kerry attacked his first set of ambushers and that “this daring and courageous tactic surprised the enemy and succeeded in routing a score of enemy soldiers.” Later, 800 yards away, Kerry’s boat encountered a second ambush and a B-40 rocket exploded “close aboard” Kerry’s boat. “With utter disregard for his own safety, and the enemy rockets, he again ordered a charge on the enemy, beached his boat only ten feet away from the VC rocket position, and personally led a landing party ashore in pursuit of the enemy.” In these citations there is no mention of enemy casualties at all. Kerry was cited for “extraordinary daring and personal courage . . . in attacking a numerically superior force in the face of intense fire.”

    Elliott had previously defended Kerry on that score when his record was questioned during his 1996 Senate campaign. At that time Elliott came to Boston and said Kerry acted properly and deserved the Silver Star. And as recently as June, 2003, Elliott called Kerry’s Silver Star “well deserved” and his action “courageous” for beaching his boat in the face of an ambush:

    Elliott (Boston Globe, June 2003): I ended up writing it up for a Silver Star, which is well deserved, and I have no regrets or second thoughts at all about that. . . . (It) was pretty courageous to turn into an ambush even though you usually find no more than two or three people there.

    Elliott now feels differently, and says he has come to believe Kerry didn’t deserve his second award for valor, either, based only on what the other anti-Kerry veterans have told him. He told the Globe Aug. 6:

    Elliott: I have chosen to believe the other men. I absolutely do not know first hand.
    _________________________

  • david

    well, i gotta say, this VERY depressing set of posts has made me feel much less bad about somethin I learned in my political science class last semester. In this particular election, as we all know, the outcome will probably be determined by the small percentage of people who are still “Undecided” and people who are “Independents,” rather than partisan identifiers. I learned in class that these people are the LEAST political, LEAST partisan, LEAST attentive, and (I thought sadly at the time) LEAST informed Americans. But this blog/board clearly attracts the very partisan and very political and very attentive, and, I gotta say it, you guys are so partisan and intense that your selective perception is staggering and your certainty leads to irrationality and illogical statements and on occasion some flat-out moronic arguments. If this is how the most attentive and most political Americans process ideas and carry on discourse, then thank God they won’t be determining the outcome in this election and that my physics major roommate who wouldn’t spend one minute on this blog/board might actually have some impact.

    I also gotta say that seeing the selective perception of most of you people, the unwillingness to consider the arguments advanced by the other side, the inability to admit confusion or error or fallability in candidates — hell, both these guys are just regular human beings like the rest of us — makes me wonder if I don’t share the same blindness and rigidity and don’t recognize it in myself. I do wanna thank Hal Pawluk for his post #75 — such a terse wonderful one-sentence rejoinder to the guy who somehow hallucinated his $80,000/year income made him a Kerry tax target — he was so factually wrong I got all bent out of shape and was trying to keep myr esponse cool and down to no more than 30 sentences, and ole Hal you just said it all: Pay attention. Also Hal thanks for the link (post 91) where Kerry’s war records and Bush’s “military” records (the actual docs) are posted side-by-side. Its a pretty stark contrast.

    I really think the issue you guys are debating is totally the wrong one. The US as a nation or a community never resolved what the mistake was in Vietnam — the argument was so bitter and the defeat was so painful that we just stopped talking about it — and everytime someone brings the subject up again, all you guys from that era resume the argument as if it and you had been frozen in time. See, the real issues are clearly the mess we’re in RIGHT NOW in Iraq (somebody explain how we’re going to get a stable Iraq out of the Kurds, Fallujah’s Sunnis, ayatollah al-Sadr (theres a real SOB who aint gonna cooperate with us, and, for the macho types who say “eliminate him,” then what about the 50 replacements that will create?) I mean, if I understood it correctly, all the arguments against going into Iraq (put forward by American specialists in the country and the region as well as ALL our Muslim and Arab allies) had nothing to do with Saddam and his desirability/danger — he had been contained pretty damn well up to that point — BUT BECAUSE AFTER WE ELIMINATED HIM WE WOULD BE IN PRECISELY THE PREDICTABLE SITUATION THAT WE NOW ARE EXACTLY IN. Plus, it does seem pretty damn unrelated to Afghanistan and whatshisname, oh yeah, Bin Laden. Plus the budget has been blown ALL TO HELL — presumably you guys, older and wiser than me, know that it took a decade of struggle and some courage on the parts of Bush I and Clinton (deficit reduction packages of 1990 and 1993) to slowly bring down those huge annual deficits AND ACTUALLY PRODUCE THE FIRST BUDGET SURPLUS SINCE 1969 — then three more annual surpluses, producing the first actual decline in the national debt IN FIFTY YEARS. And what a perfect achievement as we need to “get ready” for the demographic disaster of the retirement of all you baby boomers. Oh wait, WE BLEW THAT ALL TO HELL ALSO. I know it wasnt just the two huge tax cuts tilted toward the wealthy in 2001 and 2003 that messed us up — the recession, 9/11 etc also contributed, but answer this you patriotic patriots who are so incensed about Kerry’s “character” based on what the guy as a very young man might or might not have done IN FUCKING COMBAT, why the hell did we have BIG TAX CUTS DURING A WAR????? Now that IS a first in US history, and when my elderly prof told us that he was almost crying. Anyway, I’m out of here, I found a cool listserve blog where people discuss the novels of Thomas Pynchon and try to decipher the allusions — seems like computer nerds, English majors, math and physics types — kinda makes this sad place look lame lame lame — have a happy slugfest insulting each other

  • Shark

    I only have one question:

    IS THIS ELECTION OVER YET?

  • Joel Kirkpatrick

    The book has been released. I own a copy. I believe John Kerry’s candidacy will soon be over. Howard Dean will be the first to call for Kerry to release his records or step down; the media will faint, and John Edwards will wet his pants.

    Kerry has been false with the public. He deserves to go down in flames of disgrace.

  • http://www.rodneywelch.blogspot.com/ Rodney Welch

    Calm down, Joel. That’s no way to talk about your next president.

  • Anonymous

    Did someone hack Amazon again? When I looked at customer reviews of Unfit for Command on Monday, there were over 20 reviews and most of them were 4 or 5 stars. I gave the book 4 stars myself.

    Today when I looked at the customer reviews there were only 9 reviews and they all gave 1 star.

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    Maybe the Reality Fairy hacked Amazon? Ya think?

  • http://calblog.com Justene

    Amazon has a review policy partly designed to keep authors of books from posting their own review. I would assume they decided the missing reviews violated the policy. If your 4 stars was in a review not just your opinion, you should contact them and inquire.

  • http://www.rodneywelch.blogspot.com/ Rodney Welch

    Check again: now it’s down to one review.

  • Daniel Irvin

    One of two things is true…

    1) Kerry, a decorated vet, is lying.. or…

    2) 60 of his fellow Swift Boat Veterans, many of whom are also decorated, are lying.

    Other notes…

    O’Neil is a Democrat.

    Many of the other Swiftboat vets are also Democrats.

    O’Neil is donating ALL of his proceeds from the book to the US NAVY. This takes out all of the “publish it to get rich” arguments.

    The conflict is between Kerry and another group of Vietnam Veterans, who ALSO have the right to have their say.

    Also.. Kerry’s “Band of Brothers” have yet to confirm whether or not Kerry’s boat was ever in Cambodia. Not one. Two of them say they never were in Cambodia.

    One of Kerry’s paraded Band of Brothers served on Kerry’s boat all of 6 days. Yet Kerry is as much as his personal savior. Need I mention that Kerry’s troup is on the payroll? None of the SwiftBoat veterans are profiting or being paid for their part.

    Get past the Democrats vs Republicans gig. Let’s talk facts than can be proven.

    Either Kerry lied or he didn’t. Yet he personally has not said a word either way about this issue and has left it to his spin-meisters who definitely WERE NOT ON HIS BOAT.

  • Michael Murff

    As a decorated Vietnam veteran and a Democrat, just like Sen. Kerry, I only want a few questions answered.

    Forget what anyone else has to say or what you have heard or read. Screw the RNC and the DNC. Screw Drudge, Salon.com, Bill O’Reily, MoveOn.Org, CNN, FOX, any newspaper and especially any Republican or Democrat! Simply let the Senator answer with his own words!

    And please, before you start with your knee jerk response, at least read and compare Douglas Brinkley’s biography “Tour of Duty: John Kerry and the Vietnam War” (John Kerry’s own words!) and “Unfit for Command”, by John E. O’Neill! Anything less is intellectually dishonest (which makes you nothing but a blind political party stooge).

    While I honor the Senator for his service, (and this is where his supporters jump to the present time), will the Senator (and anyone who would vote for him), please explain Sen. Kerry’s statements as quoted in Douglas Brinkley’s biography “Tour of Duty: John Kerry and the Vietnam War” (which again are Mr. Kerry’s own earlier published accounts to recollections of others who served with him), and compare them to what the Senator and his supporters are now saying?

    Also, look up and quote only the Senator’s own words, as you read his sworn anti-war testimonies before Congress as the anti-war groups elected spokesperson, ( just to quote the Senator)! And then try to justify his presidential ambitions (not to mention your possible vote for him)…… His supporters can not honestly do it!

    While I believe President Bush has not kept his promises (none of them every do), and he has made some major mistakes, I find myself asking why did my Democratic party select this guy Kerry, when there must be someone else who has not been on every side of every issue? Why do we and the Republicans constantly choose the lowest common denominators when we select our politicians?

    It only goes to prove that History is always right: We get the government we deserve! Choosing between two thieving liars, is still choosing a thieving liar!

    One more thing:
    Why are all these bustards multi-millionaires? (especially after they leave office!)
    Feel my pain… my ass!
    Murff (Cptn. Army Ranger Ret.)

  • L

    To all those Bush haters out there:

    You are all doing a great disservice to our troops and to the fabric of this country. All you are doing is fueling the hatred toward America. And to clarify, the Bush Campaign and the Republican Party have absolutely no part regarding “Unfit for America.”
    They are trying to distance themselves as much as possible from this book. So get your facts straight before opening your America-bashing mouths…

    And one more thing, the Vietnam vets that are supporting Kerry are all on his campaign payroll…

  • val

    Kerry is a lying piece of dogshit, how can people with the slightest amount of brain power even believe him, let alone want to elect him. Scares the hell out of me!!!!!!!!!

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    L, Bush has done more towards “fueling the hatred toward America” in three years than his opponents could do in three lifetimes.

    And, just to clarify, opposing Bush and his policies is not the hating Bush.

    Now I’ll just leave without discussing the Republicans funding the Swifties.

  • http://groups.google.com/groups?q=unfit+for+command&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=b3e9f1fc.0408192137.46734d52%40posting.google.com&rnum=1 Chief Master Bates

    Perhaps the Democratic Party should dump Kerry for Edwards – he would have a better chance.

  • Darryl

    Just for a moment, suppose all the heroic acts Kerry proclaims were true. If you had served with him wouldn’t you come forward with the truth. Instead, all the men who closely served with Kerry are speaking out against him. I believe these men rather than the few who support him, and who incidently are also on his payroll.

  • http://blogcritics.org/mt/mt-tb.cgi/18215 charles

    I just saw the new ad showing Kerry’s declaration that he is a war criminal. This will be more effective than the first Swift Boat ad. I am sending a $500 donation to Swiftboatvets today!!!

  • Dan

    I was wondering if they would play Kerry’s confession. I had already heard and audio file of it. This would indeed likely be effective. No wonder Kerry’s troops are working so hard to suppress the adds.

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    The “confession” is a lie created by taking Kerry’s statement out of context.

    He in no way declared himself a war criminal. Here’s is exactly what he said, taken from a transcript of his testimony to the Senate:

    I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command….

    They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

    [VIETNAM WAR VETERAN JOHN KERRY’S TESTIMONY BEFORE THE SENATE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE, APRIL 22, 1971]

    The ad is a lie.

  • Dan

    I haven’t seen the add, but his testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee is not what I was refering to.

  • http://www.unfitforcommand.net Corsi

    http://www.unfitforcommand.net responds that the person who is unfit is the current resident!

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    Then what was, Dan? Got a link to some non-partisan source? thanks.

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    Got it, Dan – it must have been this, which you posted in another thread:

    April 18, 1971, Kerry:

    “There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions…”

    What is your objection to Kerry thinking that those acts were “atrocities”? I don’t think that’s the word I’d have used, and Kerry himself says he probably wouldn’t today, but it seems like a not unreasonable characterization of those acts given the level of tensions at the time.

  • http://dbsanch@earthlink.net Dave S

    Not too convinced with 1st commercial from SwiftVets but 2nd one in Kerry’s own words makes me uncomfortable. I won’t vote for him now. We need more candidates.

  • Dan

    “What is your objection to Kerry thinking that those acts were “atrocities”?”

    I don’t object. That’s what I would call ‘em. Kerry confessing to commiting them “contrary to the laws of warfare… contrary to the Geneva Conventions” would seem to be more damnable than the Foreign Relations testimony you cited.

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    It would?

    Huh.

  • Dan

    I would think so, yes.

  • ZEKE

    I’VE NEVER SEEN SO MUCH HATE ON THE LEFT. I’VE NEVER SEEN A SITING PRESIDENT ATTACKED WITH SUCH VILE. WE ARE AT WAR WITH A RADICLE GROUP THAT
    WANTS TO DESTROY US AND WE’RE WORRIED
    ABOUT POLITICS. BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU VOTE
    FOR – YOUR LIABLE TO GET IT.

  • Curt

    For the facts on GW Bush’s desertion from the Guards and how Rush Limbaugh dodged the draft, go to http://www.awolbush.com and http://www.nhgazette.com (click on “Chickenhawks’).

  • JOn

    The left in this country is just plain cracking up! Their hatred is blinding. “Move-on”? Yea, right. If Kerry is the best you can do, you deserve what ya got…a lying mo-ron. I’ll give his props for serving, but that’s it. His Senate record is the most liberal, anti-military EVER. Hell, even Ted (the swimmer) Kennedy makes this guy look bad. WHEW!!!! Get over it, commies, ooops, I mean leftists, your reign is coming to an end! Thank GOD! (I hope that offends you leftys!) Bush isn’t perfect, but at LEAST he is sitting on his hands and kissing the asses of the enemies of the GREAT USA and what we (used to) stand for! Kerry is no hero…just a typical leftist politician. Your days are numbered….HA

  • Jon

    OK, I’ll own that typo…Bush ISN’T sitting on his hands!

  • Curt

    hey jon,
    and where did you serve in combat?

  • http://www.rodneywelch.blogspot.com/ Rodney Welch
  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    I see you’re playing from the same slimy right wing playbook that Newt Gingrich started back in 1996 – open with disparagement and name-calling, whatever the issues and the facts.

    Jon: … cracking up! Their hatred is blinding.

  • Jon

    Never did. Signed up for selective service, thats the extent. BUT, what does that have to do with anything? Clinton was a draft dodger, but the left didn’t go nuts about that. At least Bush was in a branch of the military. Like I said, I give Kerry his props and respect for serving, but what happened after he got back is the real problem. His Senate record speaks volumes and the fact he can’t seem to keep a story straight (ever) speaks even more. You guys should have stuck with Dean. At least he was honest about his convictions (although a little unstable). This country has been screwed with way to long w/o doing anything about it…and the time has come to put a boot up their asses. Finally a President who doesn’t just talk about doing something! Before you can ever have peace, you must defeat the ememy. Works every time it’s tried.

  • charles

    Swift boat donations are up to 1.7 million. We have got to keep getting the truth to the voters!!!!

  • boomcrashbaby

    Before you can ever have peace, you must defeat the ememy.

    And Bush has increased the ranks of Al Queda far more than Osama could have ever dreamed possible. So who is Bush’s enemy? The American people?

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    Update on the lies:

    Several Vietnam veterans are calling for an assistant district attorney to resign after questions were raised about his statement in a recent ad criticizing Democrat John Kerry’s military service.

    Alfred French of the Clackamas County district attorney’s office appears in the ad sponsored by the group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. In the spot, French says: “I served with John Kerry. … He is lying about his record.”

    A group of Vietnam veterans who protested outside the county courthouse Monday said French implied he had firsthand knowledge of Kerry’s war actions when in fact he had heard about what Kerry did from friends.

    In an interview with The Oregonian newspaper last week, French said he relied on the accounts of three other veterans in making the statement about Kerry and did not personally witness the events. French did not return two messages left at his office Monday.

    Add one more to the list of liars on the right. The problem with smears is that the mud sticks, even after it is clearly shown that they are lies.

    You can ask John Kerry about that. In his primary, Bush people used “push-polling,” planting an idea without making an outright statement, to defeat McCain with lies:

    Voters in South Carolina report being asked “Would you be more likely or less likely to vote for John McCain for president if you knew he had fathered an illegitimate black child?” an allegation that had no substance but planted the idea of undisclosed allegations in the minds of thousands of primary voters.

    They’re still as slimy as they ever were.

  • charles

    If Kerry would simply sign a form and allow his military records to be released this could be sorted out today. Why want he? I think there is more out there to be found. We have already got an admittance that his first purple heart was a fraud!!!

    Speaking of mud…the democrap’s 527s have outspent all other 527s. How about that ex Kerry campaign guy running one of them. Sure would like to see his phone records and see how many calls to the DNC!!!!

  • charles

    Swift Boat truth update:

    Cambodia trip was a lie. Although Kerry swore it was seared into his memory, it turns out that his memory was a lie.

    Kerry’s first purple heart was a fraud. Kerry’s own journal contradicts the report that Kerry filed to get award. He now says it may have been self-inflicted.

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    Or the liars could stop their slime.

  • http://www.rodneywelch.blogspot.com/ Rodney Welch

    I confess ignorance here — which vital military records has Kerry failed to release? These?

  • curt

    http://www.awolbush.com update:

    gw bush skipped out on the last 14 months of national guard duty, may 1972-july 1973. a.w.o.l. over 30 days constitutes desertion.

    curt, usn ’70-74

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    Geez, Charles, don’t pull a Michelle Malkin on us. Instead, say:

    “He now says it may have been ACCIDENTALLY self-inflicted.”

  • charlie

    Hal,

    whatever you want to call it…bottom line he lied about it. Do you get purple hearts for self inflicted wounds? If the answer is no then his first purple heart was fraud. So if the first one was fraud then what else do we have. It is worth investigating.

    The great thing about this is Kerry was using Vietnam to deflect from his dismal record in the senate. Now he is off message. He has no choice but to now discuss his record. His record as number one liberal may work ok with his home state but not elsewhere. People are about to really get to know the real Kerry not the re-invented Kerry.

  • curt

    so jon,

    are you a chickenhawk? ie, one who supports a war, as long as someone else has to fight and die in that war.

    jon’s words, 11:35 am. “before you can ever have peace, you must defeat the enemy.”

    why not enlist in the active military during time of war and then volunteer for combat? john kerry did…i did; but you and gw bush did not.

    put your money where your mouth is, war-wimp…

    – curt
    usn, ’70-74

  • Jon

    Curt, I already tried that…I have 2 crushed vertibre in my back and was told to go home. I would gladly go over to anyplace to serve along side of our troops! I have several members of my family that are either there now or have been and returned. You’re just p-o’d because we are kicking these pinheads asses. Would you rather we crush these morons on our own soil? I’ll gurantee you one thing, if they were here – I’d be fighting them with any means possible. The left was trying so hard to prove THEY aren’t chicken-hawks that they just had to find a “hero”. You should have looked into his record before you nominated him. His story falls apart more every day & it’s driving you all nuts It’s hard for me to fathom how you (as you mentioned being ex-navy) just don’t get what the heck is going on in that part of the world. You need to get over your hatred of Bush and look at the big picture. We are taking these terrorists out *pop* one – at – a – time… We disn’t start this war – they did. Now it’s payback time! You “tolerant” lefties never cease to amaze me….

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    No, Charlie, he did not lie about it. Even the statement you dragged up says it’s only a possibility that it was accidental.

    And why such a frenzy on the right about Viet Nam?

    Is it to divert attention from the failure in Iraq?

    From the lies that led to a reckless unilateralist invasion that had nothing to do with terrorism but everything to do with the monomaniacal neoconservative ideologues?

    That in fact has created new terrorists en masse, and changed the way terrorists are organized so it’s now going to be even harder to suppress them?

    That so far has needlessly killed more than 900 Americans in a quagmire of this administration’s making?

    The cynical callousness of what this administration has done and and continues to do for its political ends should make even the most zealous right-winger stop and think. Is the world today the world they promised you?

    The correct answer is “No.”

  • curt

    dear arm-chair patriot (jon);

    please spare the lectures on sacrifices to the country…i lost 1 cousin and 2 classmates in vietnam (before you were born).

    concerning the best man for president, my 1st choice was john mccain, but he didn’t make it, thanx to the smear tactics of your guy, gw bush, rush limbaugh (another draft dodger), karl rove, et al.

    as for your remark that “at least bush is not sitting on his hands”, gw wasn’t sitting on his hands 30 years ago, either, when he skipped out of his last 14 months of guard duty. which maybe was a good thing – i hear those jets are pretty tough to fly while stoned on cocaine…

    – curt (usn vet)

  • Jon

    Boy, Curt it must be tough being so mad all the time. Don’t lecture me on those kinds of sacrifices. I lost 2 cousins and uncle in Vietnam, not to mention relatives in Korea & WWII. AND BTW, I was alive during the Vietnam war and watched it every night on TV, but at 10-14 yrs. old when you were there, I disn’t qualify to serve. If John McCain was your 1st choice, then how the heck could you possibly support Kerry? His little tirade in front of the Senate was fodder for the enemy & made the POW’s lives a LOT harder (just ask McCain). For all the accusations you lefties make, I have yet to see the proof of what you accuse Bush of doing. There is a TON of proof about your buddy, Kerry. Oh yea, I forgot what the left uses as “proof” now-a-days, “It’s the seriousness of the charge” – never mind if they are false. Kinda funny to me to see that one turned on you guys now. Although the right actually presents facts. You are just full of hatred for Bush. It is consuming you on the left to the point of self destruction. BTW, it is a helluva lot easier to pilot a boat than it is to fly a jet. Oh well, I still have respect for you and ALL other vets for your service. Even if you don’t want it. I’ve even given props to Kerry, although as time goes on and the facts of what he did against the troops that were still in Vietnam is starting to make me feel less respectful of his service. I guess you thaink that 250+ Vietnam vets are all liars, but less than 20 are all telling the truth?

  • http://www.rodneywelch.blogspot.com/ Rodney Welch

    In case you ever doubted, top Bush people ARE involved in the Swift Boat ads – and now they’re getting pushed overboard …

  • Jon

    New York Times…now there’s a reliable source! I guess you don’t think Kerry is connected to MoveOn.org, etc. etc, etc…? Cmon…gimme a break…

  • http://www.rodneywelch.blogspot.com/ Rodney Welch

    Oh Jon, please. You’re embarrassing yourself. You think the Times “made up” the story, eh? The lawyer didn’t exist, right? His quotes — totally fabricated? Is this the fantasy that’s sweeping through the windmills of your mind?

  • Jon

    Nope, never said that. What Ginsberg did was entirely leagal, in fact the Kerry camp is doing the exact same thing with MoveOn.org and other such groups. I’m afraid you lefties are the ones that have fantasies sweeping thru your minds. Like such statements as “unilateral” and “quagmire”. Facts are facts. Take a gander at how many allies we had in WWII compared to Iraq. You guys are cracking up….

  • http://www.rodneywelch.blogspot.com/ Rodney Welch

    Stating that “the Kerry camp is doing the exact same thing with MoveOn.org” is a dead giveaway that your ideas come straight out of NewsMax. The legality isn’t the issue; the issue is that Bush is standing up there saying he has nothing to do with the Swifties and here’s his own lawyer giving them advice.

  • Jon

    Oh, they made that story up? If that’s the case why was it on Kerry’s website? I don’t see Kerry denouncing any of these groups, but he crys “foul” when Bush dosn’t denounce ONE such group. I do believe that G.W. said ALL such ads were bad, including those who support HIM. Are you trying to actually tell me that MoveOn.org website is factual? Man O man…..

  • http://www.rodneywelch.blogspot.com/ Rodney Welch

    Jon,

    It doesn’t mean anything for him to say they are all 527 ads are bad if his own people are out there in trenches helping the bad guys.

  • Jon

    Well, at least he said something about it, Kerry is still silent. Ginsberg is a lawyer. He also resigned on his own. If I remember correctly, lawyers give advise. Do you honestly think that the Kerry campaign is on the up & up? Just stay tuned… I guess you think the 250+ Vietnam vets are all lying about Kerry too?

  • http://www.rodneywelch.blogspot.com/ Rodney Welch

    There’s no deceit in their hatred for him, I’ll say that. But given the fact that the nucleus of the group started with lies — such as that they “served with” John Kerry when they didn’t, or that they had specific knowledge when they didn’t, or that they didn’t actually help Kerry get his medals, which they DID — no, it’s not unfathomable that all 250+ are involved in deceit. They obviously are. It’s not unusual. Groups of people lie all the time. I don’t know where Dole got the idea that they all can’t be lying; they all certainly can be and I think the facts prove they all are.

  • Jon

    WOW…that’s telling…Some of them did serve WITH Kerry, some served at the same just on other boats. So you will take the words of less than 20 over the words of over 250? Now who is starting to embarass himself? But, I’ll have to agree about one thing, groups can be all lying…such as the democratic party (with a few exceptions). The facts are in their favor, not yours.

  • http://www.rodneywelch.blogspot.com/ Rodney Welch

    Which served on the boat with him?

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    Using quantities of those who agree or disagree with a point of fact doesn’t work.

    And the majority of the supposed 250 were in no position to comment on the facts.

    Of the few who were, several have already been proven to be liars.

    I can see why they might hate Kerry for what he did after he got back, but they should stick to that. And they shouldn’t lie about that, either (as the second ad does).

  • curt

    jon,

    to learn the facts documentation of gw bush’s desertion from the guards from may ’72-july ’73, go to http://www.awolbush.com. am anxious to hear your response.

    – curt

  • Jon

    I’m still waiting for my copy! I didn’t say they were on HIS boat, they were in his unit. Hal, you’re right. That is how all of this got started – by Kerry using his service as his platform. As far as the 250 not being in position to comment, I disagree. If they were in the theatre at the time, they were pivy to what was going on. Overall, Kerry should have apologized to ALL the vets he discredited and in fact harmed when he got back. He is the one making up things here…like Cambodia?

  • Jon

    How about when Kerry was AWOL from from fulfilling his reserve duties? I guess he was too busy aiding the enemy, huh?

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    “Privy to” and “in the same theatre” are sliders.

    In fact, that’s what one of the liars from the first ad used as the basis of his claim on the first ad that Kerry was lying. When he was called on his lie, he admitted that he had “heard from friends.”

    You can read all about it:

    Several Vietnam veterans are calling for an assistant district attorney to resign after questions were raised about his statement in a recent ad criticizing Democrat John Kerry’s military service.

    Alfred French of the Clackamas County district attorney’s office appears in the ad sponsored by the group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. In the spot, French says: “I served with John Kerry. … He is lying about his record.”

    A group of Vietnam veterans who protested outside the county courthouse Monday said French implied he had firsthand knowledge of Kerry’s war actions when in fact he had heard about what Kerry did from friends.

    In an interview with The Oregonian newspaper last week, French said he relied on the accounts of three other veterans in making the statement about Kerry and did not personally witness the events. French did not return two messages left at his office Monday. [Vets Protest Prosecutor in Anti-Kerry Ad]

    But enough of this summer silliness.

    What do you think of how the unilateralist invasion of Iraq has created more terrorists and in fact has changed the face of terrorism worldwide so it will be even harder to fight?

    Of how there were 4 million unemployed in July of 2000 but 8.2 million unemployed in July 2004?

    Of how the few jobs that have been recovered pay an average of 20% less than the jobs that were lost during this adminstration?

    Of how fewer and fewer companies are now even offering plans, with at least 44 million Americans with no health coverage?

    Etc.

    Let’s talk about something real.

  • Charlie

    Hal,

    I agree lets get off vietnam, besides the damage to kerry is done. He has lost most of the vet vote. Lets talk about his 19 years of voting for taxes, and other liberal issues while in the senate- that is when he showed up. Tell me why a person who is running for the highest political office refuses to talk about his record as a politician? Wouldn’t it make sense to talk about your experience in the senate? Why is he running away from his years in the senate? He tried to distract the public with his 4 months in vietnam…4 MONTHS hear that?

  • Jon

    Oh boy, here we go again…back to good ol Clinton days. Hey Hal, have you ever heard of 9/11? How about the fact that the recession started during Bill’s term? How about the .com bust? On health care, get real. There isn’t one American citizen that can’t get health care.NONE. If you’re broke, guess what? You can still get health care at the cost of the rest of us. I’ve been self employed for 16 years & paid for my own health care (crappy as it was) out of MY own pocket. I suppose you are one of those who think only the top 2% got a tax cut. UNILATERAL “invasion” of Iraq? Where do you get THAT? We had more allies in this war than in WWII. I suppose you don’t count a country as big as France or Germany as relivant, but I do. We’re doing the bulk of this thing because we can. Do you think Iraq was a better place when Saddam was in charge? How many hundreds of thousands were MURDERED by this dictator? Oh, I guess that dosn’t matter….how about Rwanda & how your buddy Bill, the French, etc. just let that one slide by. How about the Sudan NOW? I guess we should just sit back and talk about it, huh? Screw them people..we have to “talk”. Let the (useless) U.N. do all the talking and making empty threats….meanwhile people are being murdered. “Oh well, that’s terrible. I need another cup o’ joe from Starbucks”….that what you lefties do. Screw France & Germany, they are a bunch of spineless wimps. Have you ever been to a Communist country? I have. Life sucks there. This President is the 1st since Reagan to “poke” the ememy in the chest and say “quit – enough is enough”. If you hate this country so much, move.

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    Let’s tell the truth about thos issues, too.

    Go take a look at the list of supposed taxes Kerry voted for, then look at the bills.

    While you’re at it, make sure you put the bills in the right social and economic context (they go back to 1985).

    What you get will not be what Ed Gillespie would have you believe.

  • Jon

    Oh yea, Curt. Great website, completely unbias. I’m beginning to think you were drafted….is that correct? What about Kerry not showing up for his commitment to the reserves when he go back after 4 months? Too damn busy aiding the V-C I guess. Jane & John…what a pair…..

  • charlie

    Hal you crack me up. People will see the commercials that kerry raised taxes on a regular basis. Which is true. Who cares about when or why. People will see that Kerry is the number one liberal and edwards number 3. That will not play well outside MA

  • Jon

    I’m outta here for now. Gotta take my right wing wife out for dinner….see you soon.

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    Some people will see that the commercial is just that, a partisan twisting of facts to create an impression that does not match the truth.

    So far, it looks like – slime or no slime – Bush is busted.

  • Goon

    only in America can John Kerry be called a ‘liberal with a straight face’

    to people like charlie anything left of Fox news is liberal.

  • Goon

    did anyone see Aaron Brown. He played one of the Nixon tapes where O’Neill says he was also in Cambodia before the US said they were.

    Yet another lie exposed.

    Someone should write a book called “John O’Neill: Unable to Keep His Story Straight”

    and how about all these other swiftvets who didnt show up for the rally in Gainesville Florida this past weekend. They’re jumping ship…er…swiftboat… left and right away from the group, saying they were conservatives who simply believed the leaders of the group based on the documentation they provided. The same way the general public is believeing what they want to believe based on their political affiliation.

    Even many of the Swiftvets now see they were lied to, that they are part of something dishonest and they’re getitng out of dodge. If the press keeps on this and investigating, you’ll see the number of “Swiftvets for Truth” will keep getting smaller and smaller, with only partisan trolls like a few of the ones on here still believing. These are the same people of course who believe Clinton murdered 70 people.

  • charlie

    darn it guess I won’t be voting for O’Neil….wait a minute here! O’Neil isn’t running for president. I did a search and I couldn’t find a seared in my memory speech given to the senate. Oops his first purple heart was not gained by fraud ( as admitted by facts in kerry’s own journal)

  • charlie

    did anyone see that kerry waterboy cleland today? Bet you guys didn’t know that he is also working for Bush as a political appointee. Making 100K plus a year. That tells a lot about this person doesn’t it. No honor. If he had some balls he would resign his job. Or maybe he lost his balls also. It looks to me like he is still whining about his fair and square defeat by a better candidate for senate.

  • Jon

    Yup, Charlie you are on the mark. As far as all the swities showing up in Fla. how much $$$ do YOU lefties have? Not everyone can just stop their life & travel to a political event out of state at the drop of the hat…Oh yea, your boy is a Billionaire! Forgot that, huh? He can have a hair stylist fly on a G-4 to do his hair b-4 an event. What are we working stiff’s thinking? You lefties hate Fox because they are fair. WOW whatta concept! I’ll give Cleland the respect he deserves for his service. Politically he is just plain nuts. Seems the left has gone overboard again. Aaron Brown, hmmmmm. leftist? yep. Better put another layer of tin foil on ur hats, guys….Earth to left – you are all nuts. All you have to really do is see who supports one side. Left= Alec Baldwin, Barbara Streisand, Michael Moore, Meathead, etc. (all Millionaires – bitch about everything in this country)..Right = Mel Gibson, Toby Keith, Bo Derik, etc. (all Millionaires too – but they LOVE this country). You lefties just want a socialist state. I have an idea: move to a communist country or a country ruled by a dictator for a year – then come back and brag about how good THEY have it. I dare ya. I spent 2 weeks in commie China & wouldn’t change my views for anything. About O’Neil, his story has been consistant, Kerry’s has changed about a half a dozen times. If Kerry isn’t lying, why does he keep changing his stoty? Nuff said…you lefties are loosin it….. :)

  • charlie

    just out—looks like another member of the left’s royal family is accused of sexual assault. William Kennedy that is.

  • Jon

    How strange, huh Charlie? A leftist that is a criminal….NOT! Just like Ted “the swimmer” Kennedy….The left is loosin it! Thank God (ooops, sorry to offend you lefties…NOT)

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    They call him …

    Flipper!

    Flipper!

    Flipper Bay-bee!

  • Jon

    Hey Rodney, Hal, & Curt…u guys are awfully quiet all the sudden. RJ, you are right! Flipper is his name. Why do you guys hate this country so much? Still P-O’d about Florida? “Move On” for crying in the sink. I had to put up with 8 years of Bill Clinton and all his liberal crap…(thanks Bill, for N. Korea having nukes) This nation is starting to realize how screwed up you lefties are…(thank God.. ooops, no offense – NOT). All you guys have to do is look at history & your side is a bunch of losers. Johnson (who got YOU in Vietnam, or was that JFK?), Carter (good gravy – what a looser), and Clinton. All of these clowns were complete failures. The right has to always clean up the messes left to them. Just like today. BTW, the 1st gulf war was never over! So-damn-insane agreed to the conditions of the “cease fire”. He violated them almost daily. The war wasn’t over in back in the arly 90’s. Do you think shooting at our planes almost daily wasn’t a violation of those terms? We tried & tried to deal with the freakin U.N. for years with them issuing “empty” threats. How long do you guys think the world should wait? Just like a bully, you put up with this crap for a while, then *bam* you pop ‘em in the chops. That’s what is going on now. That lil pin-head al sadr is a coward. Just like all these freakin terrorists. They hide behind the walls of “holy sites” (remember when the thugs from Palistine were holed up in the Church Of The Nativity?) They trashed the place…so much for a “holy site”, huh? I say drop a few 5,000 pounders on the place & we’ll rebuild it after the idiots are D.O.A. Same site, new building. I for one, am sick and tired of placating these terrorists. They have killed more of their own then WE have. They just don’t care. Remember the burnt, decapitated bodies of the Americans in Falluja? That dosn’t matter to you. Hell, you guys go over there and try to reason with these idiots…lets see what they think of you guys. These guys are NOT religious, they are NUTS. If you have a mad dog, do you try to reason with it? Nope. You put a slug in it’s head. These clowns stsrted WWIII and we will finish it. Make no mistake about it..we ARE in WWIII & this time we saw it coming. Kerry wants to “talk about it” , Bush wants to get the job done…
    ‘Nuff said.

  • Jon

    Oh, BTW, JFK was a real hero….you democrats should get back to your roots & see how far LEFT your party has gone…left of socialism…WOW…put another layer of tin foil on your hats!

  • curt

    jon, a.k.a. arm chair patriot,

    nope, wasn’t drafted, i enlisted. but what difference does it make? i served, which is more than you did; which means i’ve contributed more to preserve our freedom of speech than you.

    keep waving that flag, [edited].

    – curt

  • http://www.evilwhiteguy.com/blog Evilwhiteguy

    Where was John Kerry for the last year when MoveOn.org and all the others were running constant attack ads against Bush? I guess it’s OK for them to have free speech. But let the right air ONE AD criticizing Kerry and he threatens to sue TV stations, sue the publisher of the book, file an FEC complaint, and demand Bush denouce the ad. Hypocrite.

    As for Rodney in post 170 see this article:http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040824_2007.html. Here’s an excerpt. “Joe Sandler, a lawyer for the DNC and a group running anti-Bush ads, MoveOn.org, said there is nothing wrong with serving in both roles at once.”

    Jon’s idea came straight out of the mouth of a DNC lawyer who is doing the exact same thing that Ginsburg was doing, not from NewsMax.

  • http://www.evilwhiteguy.com/blog Evilwhiteguy

    Post 153:

    “Add one more to the list of liars on the right.”

    “French said he relied on the accounts of three other veterans in making the statement about Kerry and did not personally witness the events.”

    Funny, that’s the exact same thing Kerry said about his testimony before the Senate in 1971. He didn’t see anything firsthand, either, he heard what he testified to from other people.

  • http://www.evilwhiteguy.com/blog Evilwhiteguy

    Post 190:

    “did anyone see Aaron Brown. He played one of the Nixon tapes where O’Neill says he was also in Cambodia before the US said they were.

    Yet another lie exposed.”

    You left off the next sentence that O’Neill spoke on that tape. He quantified it by saying that he was patrolling the border of Cambodia.

  • http://www.evilwhiteguy.com/blog Evilwhiteguy

    And John O’Neill has an open invitation to John Kerry to sue him for libel if anything in the book isn’t factual. I doubt Kerry will take him up on the offer, just like I doubt Kerry will fill out Form 180 to release his full Naval records. Too big of a risk for Kerry on either count.

  • http://www.evilwhiteguy.com/blog Evilwhiteguy

    I don’t know if anyone caught Britt Hume’s show this evening, but he read a quote from John Kerry earlier this year where Kerry talked about being in Vietnam and hearing about the death of Martin Luther King, Jr.

    Nice sentiment, if you leave out the part that Kerry wasn’t in Vietnam until seven months after King was killed.

    If you can get a Purple Heart for a splinter from a self-inflicted grenade wound, how many do you think Kerry would have for shooting himself in the foot?

  • Jon

    There you guys go – more truth. Damn, ain’t that a kick in the pants? Oh yea, maybe Kerry will get another purple heart for a kick in the pants too.

    Curt, I guess according to you, anyone that never enlisted or served at all is not patriotic? Lets see, that would make up about 95% of the population or so? I already said I appreciated anyone who ever served, including your buddy Kerry. But that just seems to piss you off for some odd reason. Typical leftie, have to resort to calling me names. A lot of my family served in the military and served in combat – some never came home. I guess you think anyone who “just” served as a reservist is a war wimp too? I do believe there were reservists that fought & died in Vietnam too, huh? How about Iraq now? You seem to have anger issues as does the entire left. Thats why your side is gonna loose. The rest of the country is onto the lefties now and it ain’t flying. You can snipe at me all day long, but I’m every bit as much a patriot as you are…maybe more…I don’t put this country down and run my mouth about the President in a time of war. Have fun in Hollywood.

  • http://wisdomandmurder.blogspot.com Distorted Angel

    Are you guys all drinking the same stuff?

  • curt

    yo, evilwhiteguy;

    there is a $10,000 reward for anyone who witnessed gw bush fulfilling his commitment at dannelly air national guard base between may 1972 and november 1973.

    finding someone like that should be easy for a person of your abilities and resources. i’m sure the witness would be happy to split the 10 grand with you.

    go to http://www.bushawol.com for more details.

    just think, you could kill 2 birds with one stone: make $5,000 and prove that ol’ gw was not a deserter.

    curt, usn 1970-74

  • curt
  • http://www.evilwhiteguy.com/blog Evilwhiteguy

    Curt,

    First, thank you for your service. Secondly, Bush is not making his military service the cornerstone of his campaign, John Kerry is. I sincerely doubt you will see George Bush get up to speak at the convention next week and say “reporting for duty”.

    John Kerry has bludgeoned America with reminders that he was in Vietnam for four months. He brings it up any chance he gets. If he’s going to use those four months as his selling point, he had to expect they would come into question. When you run for President, you have to be prepared for the eventuality that everything you’ve ever done will be brought forth and called into question.

    And if what he’s been telling everyone for the last thirty years is based wholly or partly on lies, then he has some explaining to do. I’m not saying everything he has said about being there was a lie, I wasn’t there. But others were. And he’s already backed off of the “seared into his memory” Cambodia story. And one of his spokesmen told Britt Hume a few days ago that is was possible that the wound he received his first purple heart for was self-inflicted. Kerry’s own diary entry nine days after the incident indicates that he had not yet been fired upon. So that’s one definite and one very probable lie right there.

    It’s possible some of the Swift Vets are wrong about their assertions, but when Kerry has backed out of one story and is in the process of backing out of another one, it certainly doesn’t give him much credibility and leaves one wondering what else he has lied about.

  • boomcrashbaby

    Secondly, Bush is not making his military service the cornerstone of his campaign, John Kerry is.

    um. EWG? Bush is making terrorism the cornerstone of his campaign. Of course he’s not making the qualifications for being Commander in Chief during a time of war, the cornerstone, agreed.

    The fact that Bush has no military experience on the level of that of Kerry, and the fact that Bush is running on the platform of Commander, WOULD make Bush’s military service or lack thereof, VERY MUCH a part of his campaign.

  • Jon

    Funny you question the only canidate that has qualifications as Commander in Cheif, Bush. I don’t believe Kerry has been a Commander in Cheif before, has he? Hmmmmm….NO. Everyone I have talked to that is in the service now, think he an excellent C.I.C. He backs them up at every turn & treats them with respect. They are treated as soldiers with a mission, not just a tool to use when his ass in in a sling.

  • http://www.rodneywelch.blogspot.com/ Rodney Welch
  • Jon

    UH-OH…Kerry cronies…Have you ever heard of Steve Gardner? He was ON Kerry’s boat (gunner) and is making some very interesting comments…but, I suppose yet another Vet is lying? Yea right…

  • http://www.rodneywelch.blogspot.com/ Rodney Welch

    Depends on which comment you are referring to, Jon. Sounds to me like Steve “I-Love-the-Smell-of-Napalm-in-the-Morning” Gardner has been admirably forthright:

    By Mr. Gardner’s own admission, then-Lt. Kerry threatened to court-martial him for machine-gunning a sampan from which he thought fire was coming. When the shooting stopped, Mr. Kerry—who’d been in the wheel house when Mr. Gardner, then others opened up without order—personally inspected the flimsy native craft. No weapons were found, just a woman and the body of a little boy. “[Mr. Kerry was] screaming at the top of his lungs,” Mr. Gardner told The Globe. “‘What the hell do you think you’re doing?’”

  • http://www.rodneywelch.blogspot.com/ Rodney Welch

    Oh, and by the way: Gardner Wasn’t On the Boat: “Gardner admitted that ‘he was not on the boat with Kerry during the incidents for which Kerry got his medals,’ reported The Columbus Dispatch on August 6. And as a guest on Michael Savage’s radio show, Savage Nation, on August 2, Gardner said that of Kerry’s three Purple Hearts, he could only attest to the first; Gardner later admitted to Savage that he was ‘not on the boat with him [Kerry]’ when that injury occurred.”

  • http://www.rodneywelch.blogspot.com/ Rodney Welch
  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    PSA: No matter which side of the aisle you’re on, if it’s on the internet, it must be true!

  • Jon

    Well, I don’t know where you’re getting your info. I’m getting from the guys own mouth….Jeez, you lefties need to switch to decaf…

  • http://www.rodneywelch.blogspot.com/ Rodney Welch

    Excellent point, Joe. I urge everyone to investigate everything posted here by anyone and, particularly if it comes from a partisan site — as two of mine were — check it against a credible news source.

  • http://www.evilwhiteguy.com/blog Evilwhiteguy

    Rodney,

    I was referring to Bush’s service in the Texas National Guard as what Bush is not running on, since that is what Curt was referring to.

  • http://www.rodneywelch.blogspot.com/ Rodney Welch
  • http://www.evilwhiteguy.com/blog Evilwhiteguy

    If the Swift Vets are causing Kerry to drop in the polls as the LA Times is indicating, wait until this comes out.

  • boomcrashbaby

    Funny you question the only canidate that has qualifications as Commander in Cheif, Bush. I don’t believe Kerry has been a Commander in Cheif before, has he? Hmmmmm….NO

    No, Kerry hasn’t been Commander in Chief. I wouldn’t vote for Bush just because he’s been commander for 4 years, I have to look at the fact that he’s been an abysmal failure as commander for 4 years, with Osama not caught, our military resources depleted for NO weapons of mass destruction, anti-Americanism at it’s highest in our history, terrorist ranks swelling beyond belief, etc.

    Yes, Bush has been commander for 4 years, his grade would be an F—, and I’d rather have Kerry as Commander because I believe it is the best thing for America’s security.

  • http://www.rodneywelch.blogspot.com/ Rodney Welch

    Wow, Evilwhiteguy — maybe it could be part of a double-feature with this masterwork. Sounds like it appeals to the same audience, eh?

  • Jon

    Oh really, an F, huh? I believe you lefties were sreaming about “we haven’t found Saddam” for a loooong time, the *poof* there the lil pinhead pops up like a mole outta the ground. Military resources depleated, eh? How do you figure that? Seems to me that Bush went right to work from the get go to replenish the military after 8 years of misuse and neglect. No wepons of mass destruction, huh? Although we haven’t found major caches, we have found several types in some quantity. The whole world including his own neighbors said he had them right up to the time we decided to end all of this UN madness & get the job done. Uh, by the way, how do you explain Libya? I guess one brutal dictator sees another coming out of a hole in the ground and he found “Allah” mighty. If those who want to end this country hate us even more, who cares? They hate us anyway. Why? Because we are taking the fight to them.I think the terrists ranks are actaully shrinking now. *pop* one at – a – time…..You can have Kerry and the U.N. and all their retoric. I’m voting for the one guy who is getting the job DONE. BTW, personally I think ol Osama is buried under a whole lot of debris. A meglomaniac like him would have too much trouble shutting up (of course he does send out thos crappy quality AUDIO tapes, huh?) If he’s alive, we have him scared to death.

  • http://www.evilwhiteguy.com/blog Evilwhiteguy

    “A profound, must see video into the alleged criminal activities of Bill Clinton and his Circle of Power.”

    Sounds like dubious conspiracy theory to me.

  • boomcrashbaby

    Jon in comment 225 says:
    I believe
    Seems to me
    Although we haven’t found major caches
    who cares?
    I think
    BTW, personally I think
    If he’s alive, we have him scared to death (this last one using the old rightwinger’s mind reading capabilities).

    Suffice it to say, Bush’s grade and my vote for the security of our country has not been swayed by these ‘facts’ listed here.

  • boomcrashbaby

    Anybody that thinks a culture that praises martyrdom is a culture that gets ‘scared to death’, is a person who is not comprehending the enemy and will lose the war.

  • http://www.rodneywelch.blogspot.com/ Rodney Welch

    This just in: Newsweek says Navy records say Kerry was under fire.

  • http://www.rodneywelch.blogspot.com/ Rodney Welch

    White House denies Freedom of Information Act request from group requesting records detailing White House contacts with individuals connected to Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. Gee — what would Bush be hiding?

  • http://www.evilwhiteguy.com/blog Evilwhiteguy

    Funny. Newsweek didn’t mention who wrote the report.

    Kerry told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on April 22, 1971, “…I can recall often sending in the spot reports which we made after each mission…”

    Kerry also said that many in the military had “a tendency to report what they want to report and see what they want to see”, so Kerry with his own words draws suspicion onto this new document.

    So if Kerry wrote the report, I’m sure he would have put in that he was under fire, just like he did for the first Purple Heart. Of course, nine days after the Purple Heart incident he wrote in his journal that he had not yet been under fire.

    Kind of convenient how Newsweek left off who authored the record they obtained.

  • http://www.evilwhiteguy.com/blog Evilwhiteguy

    The FOIA thing does sound kind of suspicious. I think he should release the information just as soon as Kerry signs form 180.

  • http://www.evilwhiteguy.com/blog Evilwhiteguy

    I left off this part from the Kerry testimony:

    “I had direct experience with that. Senator, I had direct experience with that and I can recall often sending in the spot reports which we made after each mission; and including the GDA, gunfire damage assessments, in which we would say, maybe 15 sampans sunk or whatever it was. And I often read about my own missions in the Stars and Stripes and the very mission we had been on had been doubled in figures and tripled in figures.

  • boomcrashbaby

    What is true partisanship overriding the ideological concern for the safety of America, is when someone will scour lines of text from decades ago, looking for something to grasp onto, an achilles heel, but will not scour over all that has happened since 9/11, under Bush’s leadership. From the assumption that all the bad guys are conveniently located within Iraq’s borders, to the ballooning deficit, Bush’s administration has proven itself to be a threat to America.

    This (scouring text from decades past) is clearly not about finding who’s fit for command. It’s grasping at any straw possible to keep the one you got already in place.

    America is beginning to see this. They are beginning to see the perspective that it is wrong to go after a serviceman’s tour of duty with such nasty politics.

    For people who already believe that Bush is unfit for command, no line of text spoken 30 years ago could possibly override what they’ve witnessed in the last few years.

  • curt

    jon and evilwhiteguy;

    here’s one major differences between bush and kerry.

    gw bush, after graduating yale and losing his deferment, was jumped to the front of a waiting list of 500 men to get into the texas national guard, checked the box titled “do NOT volunteer to serve overseas.”

    after college, john kerry enlisted in the regular military, volunteered for vietnam and served in combat.

    its a marked difference in courage, or lack thereof.

    curt, navy vet

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    Tastes Great!

  • http://www.evilwhiteguy.com/blog Evilwhiteguy

    Sure, then he proceeded to lie about everything that happened there and invent stories to get himself three Purple Hearts so he could get out as fast as possible. That’s a marked lack of character.

  • Jon

    Boom: Funny how you cut my comments up & displayed them out of context…typical of the left. As far as a society that embraces martyrdom, who is blowing themselves up? It sure ain’t the leaders of the groups, is it? Bin Ladin, like Saddam, Arafat, etc. etc. are all cowards. They poison the minds of young, poor “idiots” to carry out their attacks. Real brave. If ol Osama is still alive, why dosn’t he have the balls to show his skinny ass? Just like these pinheads in Iraq, they hide and set booby traps. They hide behind their holy sites, in civilian clothing, and pose as peasants. They will never have the guts to show themselves. Americans don’t hide in Churches and shoot at civilians. If it were up to me, blow up the mosque, kill the pinheads, and rebuild them for the real Iraqis. And As far as deficits, well gee, it takes money to get things done. I will say one thing I don’t like about Bush is his social policies. They all model the moderate to left side. But, in this modern world, we need to spend money to maintain the best military on the planet. What is the “side effect” of a deficit? Jobs. Regan ran up a big deficit & guess who isn’t a problem anymore…USSR. You can keep the UN, they are most inept organization on this planet. Name ONE war or conflict that they have fixed or won. (zilch)

    Curt, just because you served (and I STILL honor your commitment) dosn’t mean that only the Military have courage. How much courage does it take to come back and take a royal dump on your fellow Military when you are out of the hot zone & back in the safety of the USA? He btrayed his countrymen and made life a LOT worse for those in Vietnam. Why can’t you grasp that? Just a mad liberal I guess…..

  • Jon

    Right on, Evil!

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    John Kerry is a proven liar. He lied repeatedly about Cambodia. He lied in order to get his first purple heart. He lied about his “band of brothers” to the US Senate. He negotiated with the enemy. He was considered a hero by the Vietnamese Communists. His words in front of the Senate were used to torture American POWs in Vietnam.

    How can you believe a word that comes out of this man’s mouth?

  • http://www.evilwhiteguy.com/blog Evilwhiteguy

    The latest LA Times poll shows that Bush is ahead of Kerry for the first time this year. America is beginning to see, indeed.

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    Nah, you guys, there’s enough proof that enough of the Republican-backed Swifties are lying that we should find a real topic, after bottom-lining this whole thing this way:

    On November 2nd, the choice will be between a man who dodged combat and another who volunteered for it.

    Over and out.

  • Jon

    Hal,
    There is more than enough proof that the Democratic canidate is a liar, a back stabber, a raging liberal, and soft on the military and the war on terrorism. Bush says what he means & means what he says. I don’t agree with 100% of his policies, but the war on terrorism is far too important to leave to a guy who will “ask for permission” from the world to defend this country.

    Things that happened 30-35 years ago shouldn’t be the main topic or reason to vote for a canidate. Kerry made it his cornerstone & it’s biting him in the arse. Maybe if he wasn’t hiding from his Senate record, this would have probably never been an issue. But, with a record like that, I guess he was trying anything to avoid discussing it.

    Done.

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    Or to paraphrase: “When the Navy asked, “Who wants to go home early?”, John Kerry said, “SEND ME!”

  • http://blogcritics.org/archives/2004/08/03/232849.php Rodney Welch

    Enjoy it while you can, Evilwhiteguy, because I don’t think Bush’s new lead will stick; it got a boost on the basis of a phony story that has shot its wad and I think, in your apt phrase, America will begin to see all over again. That’s my take on it anyway. The bulk of Swift Boat charges have never been substantiated, and the only one that has the slightest chance of merit is this idea that John Kerry “lied” about being in Cambodia when in fact he was only near it. Big deal — it’s a distinction wthout a difference, and we learn this week that Kerry’s arch-enemy, John O’Neill, said the same thing. Look at the big picture, people, what does it matter whether Kerry was in Cambodia or not? The point of his whole story is that he was there, spending Christmas in Vietnam; the fact that he screwed up on a minor detail — if in fact he did — does not bother me. It certainly doesn’t merit the word liar in my book.

    Today was a bad day for the Swifties; holes have been shot into their story that are obvious to anyone with half a brain, and it seems to me that the only question now is how long if will take the sucker to sink completely. The Newsweek report, especially, strikes me as a fairly crushing blow — it shows the depths to which sheer blind hatred can take you. Funny if it weren’t so sad: Larry Thurlow gets his ass blown out of the water in March of 1969, and gets saved by Robert Eugene Lambert. Both men get Bronze Stars, as does Kerry in a seperate incident. 35 years later, Thurlow says it all never happened — you know, kinda like that famous episode of “Dallas.”

    As for Evil’s question about who wrote the report, the story says “Lambert’s surviving military records do not include the initial recommendation for this medal, so there is no way to know who filled the required role of witness to vouch for Lambert’s actions. But the citation contains such detail about the actions of both Thurlow and Lambert—actions that Kerry cannot have known since his launch was on the far side of the river—that it seems implausible Kerry could have written the recommendation.”

    Interestingly, Newsweek couldn’t find Lambert — but, as I cited earlier, he popped up today anyway, when he contacted his local newspaper, the Southern Oregon Mail Tribune, alerted by a Washington Post story. He, notably, doesn’t know who wrote the documents either.

    “They took what everybody said after they got in, piled it altogether and shipped it off and somebody wrote that, either at the division level, squadron level or commander of naval forces, Vietnam level,” Lambert said. “They decided what kind of medal was going to be put on it.

    “Mine was for pulling Lt. Thurlow out of the river while we were under fire,” he said.

    The only one missing from this story now is Thurlow: “A spokesman for Swift Boat Veterans for Truth said Wednesday that Thurlow was traveling and out of contact.” Yeah, I’d stay out of contact too if I was him.

  • http://www.evilwhiteguy.com/blog Evilwhiteguy

    Volunteered for it, got out quick, impugned his fellow countrymen who were still serving there, met with the North Vietnamese in France which violated U.S. code 18 U.S.C. 953. “A U.S. citizen cannot go abroad and negotiate with a foreign power.”

    When Kerry was meeting with the North Vietnamese, accusing his fellow officers of war crimes, and meeting with a group that discussed the assassination of US Senators, he was an officer in the Naval Reserve. This was only acknowledged by the Kerry campaign in May of this year, correcting a phony Harvard Crimson interview from January 1970.

    That also violates the Logan Act. While there, Kerry helped to negotiate what became known as “The People’s Peace Treaty.” Under the terms of that treaty, the United States would agree to an immediate cease-fire and pull all forces out of Vietnam. Once that was complete, North Vietnam would then “enter discussions to secure the release of all American prisoners, including pilots captured while bombing North Vietnam.” In brief, we’d give them everything, then they’d talk about giving us back our prisoners.

    It is important to note that in 1971, Kerry wasn’t technically even a private citizen. He was still Lieutenant John F. Kerry, United States Navy (Reserve), and under no circumstances permitted to negotiate on behalf of the United States.

    Barely three months into his first Senate term, Kerry joined Senator Tom Harkin in a trip to Nicaragua, then in the grip of a civil war between the Sandanistas (backed by Cuba and the USSR) and the Contras (backed by the Reagan administration). The Senators met with representatives of both sides, and before they left Sandanista leader (and president of Nicaragua) Daniel Ortega offered the Senators a cease-fire with the Contras in exchange for the US dropping it’s support of the Contras. The Reagan administration blasted the Senators’s efforts, again citing the Logan Act.

    Maybe he just wants to be President so he can negotiate treaties without breaking the law again.

  • http://www.evilwhiteguy.com/blog Evilwhiteguy

    “On November 2nd, the choice will be between a man who dodged combat and another who volunteered for it.”

    Just like the last election!

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “On November 2nd, the choice will be between a man who dodged combat and another who volunteered for it.”

    Why are you bringing up the 1996 election, Hal? ;)

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “Look at the big picture, people, what does it matter whether Kerry was in Cambodia or not?”

    Because he repeatedly SAID he was?

    “The point of his whole story”

    STORY is an appropriate term to use…

    “is that he was there, spending Christmas in Vietnam;”

    But I thought he was in CAMBODIA, getting shot at by drunken South Vietnamese Buddhists, who were inexplicably celebrating a Christian holiday while in the wrong country…

    “the fact that he screwed up on a minor detail”

    What fucking COUNTRY he was fighting in is a “minor detail?

    “– if in fact he did — does not bother me. It certainly doesn\’t merit the word liar in my book.”

    Oh, it is the definition of lying.

    If we can’t trust John Kerry to accurately talk about his “memories” of Vietnam that were “seared” into his mind, what can we trust him on?

    By the way, he also claims to have been in Vietnam when he heard the news about MLK being gunned down. Which is unfortunate, because MLK was killed more than half a year before Kerry even went to Vietnam. So I guess he didn’t keep up with current events much back then…

  • curt

    attn: jon and evilwhiteguy,

    who said… ‘the ads by the swiftboat vets are dishonest and dishonorable’ …?

    …john mccain, vietnam pow for 5 years; the same john mccain whom (draft dodger and deserter) gw bush slimed in the 2000 republican primary.

    – curt

  • Jon

    John Kerry = Jane Fonda…in MY eyes and those of the VC.

    That’s the facts, libs.

  • Jon

    Sorry Curt,
    you lose. WHO is McCain supporting? Hmmmm…..G.W. Bush. I’m sure he remembers the traitor that sold him and all other P.O.W.s out. Hell, even the gangs of L.A. don’t do THAT. So, whats your point? I have a buddy that’s uncle was a P.O.W. … and guess what? He is pissed off about ol’ Kerry! Would you do that to YOUR best freind? I wouldn’t. This guy is so charator-less, hell just like Al Gore…HE dosn’t even know who he is! I can look at Bush and see the same freakin guy I saw back in the 1st election. Kerry has changed sooooo many times, I still don’t know what he is all about (apparently EVERYTHING – pro AND con),,,…..

    Sri about that. I just can’t figure you lefties out…oh yea…logic = whatever…or huh?

  • http://www.rodneywelch.blogspot.com/ Rodney Welch
  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    No, EWG, I said combat – Bush checked the “Don’t send me to Viet Nam” box.

  • http://www.evilwhiteguy.com/blog Evilwhiteguy

    The link for “Bush:KERRY IS TELLING THE TRUTH” is not publically available, but I’ll take the gist of the story from your link title. However, how desperate does a liberal have to get to use George Bush as a source? Remember, Bush Lied, People Died, so he’s probably lying about Kerry telling the truth.

    In other news:

    The Kerry campaign has repeatedly stated that the official naval records prove the truth of Kerry’s assertions about his service.

    But the official records on Kerry’s Web site only add to the confusion. The DD214 form, an official Defense Department document summarizing Kerry’s military career posted on johnkerry.com, includes a “Silver Star with combat V.”

    But according to a U.S. Navy spokesman, “Kerry’s record is incorrect. The Navy has never issued a ‘combat V’ to anyone for a Silver Star.”

    Naval regulations do not allow for the use of a “combat V” for the Silver Star, the third-highest decoration the Navy awards. None of the other services has ever granted a Silver Star “combat V,” either.

  • http://www.bigtimepatriot.com Big Time Patriot

    “Maybe instead of merely running away from his almost two-decade long liberal voting record in the US Senate”

    I always hear about Kerry being a flip-flopper, yet he is also consistently liberal. Which is it? Flip-flopper or Liberal? If he’s flipping he must be Conservative half the time, right?

    But I like the complaints about Kerry’s 20 year time in Senate. It reminds me of George Bush’s flip-flopping 20 years ago, “should I do cocaine today? or just get drunk?”

    At least Kerry had a successful job 20 years ago, he wasn’t driving some company into financial ruin and getting bailed out by the Saudi’s and Bin Laden family.

  • http://www.rodneywelch.blogspot.com/ Rodney Welch

    Evilwhiteguy — The link worked fine for me; it was just to the New York Times. Anyway, the lead goes like this “President Bush said on Thursday that he did not believe Senator John Kerry lied about his war record, but he declined to condemn the television commercial paid for by a veterans group alleging that Mr. Kerry came by his war medals dishonestly.”

    I do believe it’s important to point out that the President says he believes Kerry when so many of those working on his behalf do not — don’t you? The whole Swift Boat story has been perfectly improbable and stupid from the get-go and deserves the death it is now, slowly, receiving.

    The “Combat V” is interesting fresh news and I’ll be following it for objective analysis — I have a suspicion it’s spurious because it comes from a pair who are writing an anti-Kerry book, but that doesn’t neccessarily mean they’re wrong. So, no comment for now.

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    I looked at the Kerry site and while I did find the Silver star citation in a couple of places, I did not find any mention of a “v” to go with it.

    Could you provide a direct link to where that claim is made, please.

    Thanks.

    (It could well be there, but the site isn’t the easiest in the world to find anything on.)

  • curt

    evilwhiteguy,

    i’m not sure about the navy adding combat v’s to silver stars – but maybe they could give a “v” to gw bush’s 16 months of missed guard meetings; or maybe they could attach a “v” to dick cheney’s 5 deferments.

    – curt

  • http://www.evilwhiteguy.com/blog Evilwhiteguy

    Should have posted a link, sorry about that.

    http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-lips27.html

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    That link was only to a claim about the document, so I’ve faxed the Kerry campaign (although they probably have more important things to do than answer me).

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    Go to Kerry’s webpage and look for DD-214. It’s there as described with a cite for the V-device. It’s minor, and could easily be an oversight, but I know when I signed mine they asked me two or three times “Are you absolutely sure all the information on here is correct?” I think the V-device was the same discrepancy that contributed to Boorda’s problems and eventual suicide.

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    Thanks, Joe.

    After looking at the docs, it looks like it could be a simple Tempest-In-A-Typo to me.

    The citations themselves don’t mention the “V.”

    Site text does not mention the “V”:
    a Silver Star, the Navy’s fifth highest medal, a Bronze Star with Combat V, and three Purple Hearts

    But the “V” does show up on the list in the DD-214. It’s just below a Bronze star listing that included the “V” and it’s very likely that the typist simply repeated most of what was on the line above.

    Adding the extra “V” would not have much upside and a horrendous downside, so it doesn’t make any sense to fake it.

  • http://www.evilwhiteguy.com/blog Evilwhiteguy

    The Chicago Sun-Times has really been doing some digging:

    Former Navy Secretary John Lehman has no idea where a Silver Star citation displayed on Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry’s campaign Web site came from, he said Friday. The citation appears over Lehman’s signature.

    “It is a total mystery to me. I never saw it. I never signed it. I never approved it. And the additional language it contains was not written by me,” he said.

    It’s a mystery to me as well.

    http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-lips28.html

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    I don’t remember a lot of the things I signed more than 30 years ago (actually, none of them), either, so this isn’t much.

    But why doesn’t somebody end the mystery by getting a copy of the original from the Navy?

    That would stop the controversy.

    Oh … maybe that’s why.

  • http://www.katefaber.blogspot.com RJ

    “Adding the extra “V” would not have much upside and a horrendous downside, so it doesn’t make any sense to fake it.”

    It made no sense for Gore to lie about being sung to sleep as a child with the “look for the Union label” song, either. But he still made it up.

    It makes no sense for Kerry to have lied about hearing of MLK’s assassination while in Vietnam, but he still made it up.

    Democrats make stuff up. See: Farenheight 9/11, Bowling For Columbine, and Joseph Wilson for more…

  • http://www.katefaber.blogspot.com RJ

    By the way, I want to thank you all for making this one of the top-ten most commented-upon posts of all time.

    THANKS! :)

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    Republicans lie (see “WMD, “Mushroom Cloud”, “Free Trade,” “Medicare,” “Jobs,” “Thurlow,”
    Alfred French,” “McCain” and “illegitimate black child,” etc. for more).

    And why is it, RJ, that when I see a post from you I get a flashback to “discussions” in junior high?

    The topic is Kerry, let’s try to stick to it.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “And why is it, RJ, that when I see a post from you I get a flashback”

    Because you dropped a lot of acid when you were a kid?

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    Exactly hte kind of comment that causes them.

    Geez, RJ.

  • charlie

    I see that the tide has turned Bush’s way. All polls indicate that Kerry has probably peaked. People are starting to see the real John Kerry. Not the one crafted the last few months but the real one as verified by his senate time and his Senate hearings back in 71. Wait till the ads start coming out with his connections to Hanoi Jane and the communists that he ran with back then.

    Being from Texas I have seen it time and time again. Democrats believe thier own propoganda about Bush being stupid. Fact is he left the potatoe chip lady ann richards in his wake. He erased a sizable lead that Gore had to win. When was the last time a challenger unseated a vice president when in peace time and with a good economy (although it was showing signs of a clinton induced recession) You guys just keep on underestimating him. The hard core democratr Donna Brazeal (sic) had it correct when she said Bush was clever and a shrewd campaigner.

  • curt

    i don’t believe gw bush is stupid. anyone who goes awol for 16 months and then 30 years is able to convince an entire party (republican) that he’s a patriot has got to be part genious.

  • http://www.kolehardfacts.blogspot.com Mike Kole

    Uh-oh, Charlie. You just committed the Dan Quayle ‘potatoe’ faux pas!

    The problem with the Kerry campaign continues to be that it is focused on 30 years ago, which most of us don’t remember, or are too young to have been present to get a feel for. It’s a goofy strategy to chase the undecideds and fence riders by saying “I served honorably in VietNam”, when he could offer distinct differences in policy offerings as the centerpiece. This latter Kerry does in an ‘oh, by the way’ fashion instead. The real John Kerry? It’s hard to get the impression that he wants you to know what that is, since he keeps you thinking about what he did 30 years ago and not what he’s been doing over the past 19 years as a Senator.

    Oh well, Bush is going to win and I am not going to get the gridlock I want.

  • http://www.kolehardfacts.blogspot.com Mike Kole

    Hal: “I don’t remember a lot of the things I signed more than 30 years ago (actually, none of them), either, so this isn’t much. But why doesn’t somebody end the mystery by getting a copy of the original from the Navy? That would stop the controversy. Oh … maybe that’s why.”

    So, what you’re saying is that releasing documents is the honest, forthright thing to do because it shows good faith and it helps to set the record straight? I agree. That’s a good idea!

    Think your guy Kerry will be willing to do the same?

  • curt

    i wonder how many people who are casting aspersions on a combat veteran’s war record also have a “support our troops” bumper sticker on their car? just curious.

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    William Calley and Lynndie England are combat veterans, too.

  • curt

    i’ll make sure i don’t vote for calley or england for president of the united states.

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    Why not? They’ve got roughly the same national security credentials as your candidate.

  • curt

    at least my candidate was there and not a deserter from the national guard.

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    Where?

    In Paris meeting with the Vietnamese? Or was that Cambodia?

    Dangit, I used to remember which, it was positively seared – seared in me.

  • Jon

    BOY, Zell Miller handed you libs your asses on a platter last night! THAT is how Democrats USED to be before the leftists hijacked your party….HA

  • Rodger

    “To my knowledge, he never showed up. Had he reported in, I would have some recall, and I do not. If we had a first lieutenant from Texas I would remember.” Lt. Col. William Turnispeed (whom G.W. Bush was supposed to report to at Dannelly Air National Guard Base in May, 1972)

    “I was at Dannelly on temporary assignment, and fulfilled my weekends at one period of time. I made up some missed weekends. I can’t remember what I did, but I wasn’t flying because they didn’t have the same airplanes.” G.W. Bush while campaigning in 2000 – the truth is, he was not flying because he had been grounded for missing his physical (and drug testing) the preceding November

    “He never showed up.” Bob Mintz and Paul Bishop (two pilots stationed at Dannelly who were expecting and on the lookout for Lt. Bush from May 72-Nov 72)

    “Good Lord, no.” Linda Allison (whose husband arranged G.W.’s campaign assignment in 1972), when asked if they ever saw him do any National Guard Service

    “Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during period of report.” Lt. Col. William Harris and Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, May 1973 (two of Bush’s superior officers at Ellingson AFB in Houston where he was ordered to report back in Nov 72, writing that they could not complete his annnual evaluation since he was not there)

    “He recalled going back to Houston and doing Guard duty, though he does not recall if it was on a consistent basis.” Bush spokesman Dan Bartlett.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    John F. Kerry:

    “There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.”

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    Bush served in the National Guard during the Vietnam War. Bill Clinton dodged the draft and protested against his own country while living on foreign soil.

    If military service in Vietnam has suddenly become a prerequisite for the position of Commander-In-Chief, then where the hell were the Leftists from 1992 to 2000?

  • curt

    correction: bush deserted from the national guard during the vietnam war.

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    Kerry deserted from the Senate Intelligence Committee during the current war.

    You guys got anything new that already didn’t go through the mainstream media, oh, like six months ago?

  • curt

    oh, and don’t forget dick cheney’s 5 deferments and draft-dodging due to “other priorities,” which mainly seemed to be getting his wife pregnant to qualify for more deferments.

  • http://www.shortstrangetrip.org Joe

    Um, maybe you haven’t been following the news the last few weeks or seen the latest polls, but talking about Viet Nam has been pretty conclusively proven not to be a winning point for your candidate.

  • charlie

    I finally got my copy of Unfit for Command. The first few pages explain why Kerry can not leave Vietnam. Every campaign he ever ran in uses the same strategy. “I am a hero you must vote for me”. That seems to be driving his obession with Bush and Cheney not being in Vietnam. Bush is talking about real issues and Kerry is griping about Cheney’s deferrments (legal deferrmnts by the way). It is almost spooky how Vietnam is his only issue!!

  • charlie

    and by the way people are starting to become familar with kerry’s mongovern peacenik record. Maybe his senate record works in MA. and NY but that is about it. Look for Bush to pound kerry on his senate record. kerry won’t be able to defend it at all.

  • Eric Olsen

    Charlie, did we meet when you were a hurricane?

  • charlie

    hello out there…anyone seen Theresa lately

  • curt

    yo charlie –
    your boy cheney is a chickenhawk draft dodger, just like john ashcroft, newt gingrich, rush limbaugh, karl rove, bill bennett, dick armey, bill o’reilly, trent lott, tony snow, etc, etc…

  • charlie

    its all there…polls.. 13 points ahead..even the name calling is out. That is usually an indicator of all that the losing side has left.

    where is theresa? Thats really bad when the potential first lady is being held out of public view as a liability!!!!

  • http://www.evilwhiteguy.com/blog Evilwhiteguy

    It’s been days since I’ve checked this thread and curt is still saying the same thing he started with on August 23rd.

    Oh, and thanks, curt. I’ll make sure I don’t vote for john ashcroft, newt gingrich, rush limbaugh, karl rove, bill bennett, dick armey, bill o’reilly, trent lott, or tony snow when I go to cast my ballot for President.
    Thanks for the heads up.

  • Rodger

    re Joe’s comment #286; “You guys got anything new that didn’t already got through the main stream media, oh, like six months ago?”

    1) This just in, 1 September 2004..former Texas Lt. Governor Ben Barnes is finally breaking his silence on how he pulled some strings in May of 1968 which allowed G.W. Bush to jump to the front of a waiting list of 500 men and gain a slot in the Texas National Guard’s “Champagne Unit,” thusly named because it consisted of so many sons of rich and powerful Texans. A waiting list of 500 usually meant a 1 1/2 year wait, but G.W. was accepted only 2 weeks after applying (and only 10 days before his student deferment would’ve expired). Barnes said he cheated to get Bush Sr.’s son into the unit because he was eager to get “collect chits” from an influential political family. Watch for Barne’s confessional interview on “60 Minutes” this week…go to http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/09/01/barnes60minutes/index_np.html

    2) This just in, 2 September 2004…G.W. Bush has always maintained that he was transferred from the Texas ANG to the Alabama ANG in the spring of 1972 so he could work on the campaign of Red Blount. But according to Linda Allison – whose late husband Jimmy Allison was a political strategist for Bush, Sr. in the 1960s and 70s – the truth is that G.W. was becoming a political liability and his father wanted him out of Texas. “The impression I had was that Georgie was raising a lot of Hell in Houston and embarrassing the family,” Linda Allsion said, “and they wanted to get him to Alabama under Jimmy’s wing.” Mrs. Allison said that while with Blount’s campaign, the younger Bush would party at night (one evening he was caught urinating in the parking lot), come to the office late and leave early. And did he ever attend any Guard meetings? “Oh Lord, no. We didn’t see him do anything for the National Guard,” Linda Allison testified…go to http://salon.com/news/feature/2004/09/02/allison/index_np.html

    3) latest proof that Bush is a phoney…G.W. was photographed circa 1969 or 1970 wearing an Air Force Outstanding Unit Award ribbon. Walt Starr’s research with the Air Force History Support Organization uncovered that the unit Bush was assigned to, the 111th Fighter Intercept Squadron, did NOT receive the AFOUA until after 1 October 73. According to his military biography provided by the Bush Administration, G.W. was discharged on 1 October 73. Conclusion: G.W. Bush was pictured wearing a ribbon he did NOT earn…Go to http://www.awolbush.com/awards.asp

  • charlie

    you democrats just don’t get it. GWB is already president and has proven to be a leader. What happened 20 or 30 years ago does not matter. But what Kerry did does matter because we don’t know him and he made vietnam a centerpiece of his campaign. Just stay on that national guard tact and you will be wondering what happened. By the way all the “news” sources listed above are left wing rags.

    I don’t think kerry can win. His so called hero status has been effectively destroyed. His senate record is a loser. The RNC will concentrate on his tax and spend, left wing voting record. He can not hide from that. History says that people with vote with the known quanity- they know Bush. They don’t know kerry- defined himself as a moderate this year but has 20 years of left wing activity.

    Bush is likable and kerry is aloof and pompous. On a lesser but important note-kerry’s wife is a real arrogant rich b__tch. who wants that. Laura…. or Theresa…Laura…theresa….easy choice. Why do you think theresa has disappeared from mainstream view???

  • curt

    so you’re endorsing desertion?

  • charlie

    Curt, that is not what I said. Records show that GWB was there. My point is that democrats are flogging a dead horse. If democrats are trying to use that to counter kerry’s self inflicted wounds and fraudulent purple heart, traitorious activity while still in uniform (with hanoi jane), senate testomony, and senate record then it won’t work. kerry is trying to convince us to why he should be president. GWB is already there. His past history before presidency (whatever your view) does not matter as much. GWB’s window is 4 years, kerry due to some very suspect campaign strategy is 30+. Maybe he thought he could use his vietnam record to deflect from his senate record.

    Besides people have a tendency to go with the likable and known quanity- GWB is that. kerry is just not likable.

    I am reading Unfit for Command now. Dismiss it if you wish but there is some very compelling documentation. Perhaps that explains the very shrill attack by the mainstream media.

  • charlie

    more- I believe theresa kerry is a liability. I have not seen it much in the media but it is there. People view the president and wife as a package. Laura Bush is by far more likable to mainstream America than theresa. I think that in itself should be a campaign strategy. Get Laura out in every battleground state. People will see the contrast. If you don’t think it matters then look at the disdane people have for mrs clinton- to this day.

  • curt

    “…records show that gw was there.” for the past 2 years, there has been a $10,000 reward for anyone who witnessed bush at a guard meeting between may, 1972 and october, 1973. (go to http://www.awolbush.com for details) so far no one has collected.

  • Rodger

    After you’ve finished reading “Unfit For Command” give “DESERTER: George Bush’s War on the Military Families, Veterans and His Past” by Ian Williams a try.

    Learn the documented facts about how G.W. evaded service in Vietnam by using family connections to leapfrog over a long waiting list to get into the Guards. Then, among other improprieties, he didn’t show up for a physical in August 1971 and was permanently grounded thus wasting millions of taxpayers dollars on his training. And of course there’s the 16 months of AWOL, constituting desertion.

    For more info, go to http://www.buzzflash.com/premiums/04/08/pre04039.html

  • charlie

    you guys are still not getting it. No one cares about GWB’s miltary duty. He is already president. Voter’s GWB memory go back only 4 years. With Kerry it goes back 30. He brought it on himself with very suspect campaign strategy. That is just the way it is. I look for him to try to drop his vietnam obsession. Unfortunately now his senate record is there for GWB to pick to the bone. That is why senators very rarely get elected to president. Kerry may very well already be done. He got no bounce meaning swing voters were not going to him then or now. GWB got a large bounce meaning people will go to him. Why should these voters go back to kerry? There was no reason before and he has no reason now. It will only get worse.

  • http://www.evilwhiteguy.com/blog Evilwhiteguy

    Speaking of deserting, Kerry’s discharge papers from the Naval Reserves (yes that’s right, he did not join the Navy for active duty, he joined the Naval Reserves and his unit got called up) indicate that he was discharged in 1978. What the hell was he doing in between his illegal trip to Paris to negotiate with the North Vietnamese and 1978?

    I’ll tell you. No one knows. Thomas Lipscomb from the Chicago Sun-Times has contacted the Kerry campaign at least eight times to get some information on this question, and they have yet to return his calls. Kerry’s website offers no information on this issue, so it’s starting to look like curt is living in a glass house.

    Watch out with those rocks, curt.

  • curt

    a 12 year hitch (kerry ENLISTED in 1966, so 1966-78)??? i think not. when i served in the usnr from 70-76 (2 years active, 4 years reserve) the terms were 6 years. what country’s military did you serve in that has a 12 year committment?? i’d like to see your documentation, ewg.

  • Rodger

    Recently the AP spoke with military experts who were not associated with either candidate who have reviewed GW Bush’s National Guard files for missing documents. They said that is was extremely uncommon for a pilot to miss a physical exam, which Bush did in August 1971, therefore permanently grounding himself.

    “It’s sort of like a code of honor that you didn’t go DNF (duty not including flying),” said retired Air Force Colonel Leaonard Walls, who flew 181 combat missions over Vietnam. “There was a lot of pride in keeping combat-ready status.”

    And don’t forget the “60 Minutes” interview this week with Ben Barnes, who was Speaker of the Texas Legislature in 1968 when he used his position, upon the urging of Sr. Bush, to put GW at the front of a waiting list of 500 to get into the Guards and thus evading service in Vietnam.

  • Eric Olsen

    I think the entire “unfit for command” argument is a red herring in both directions. The real question is “what commands will each make”?

  • http://www.evilwhiteguy.com/blog Evilwhiteguy

    Acceptance of discharge, July 13, 1978.

    http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Acceptance_of_Discharge_Naval_Reserve.pdf

    There you go, curt.

  • http://www.evilwhiteguy.com/blog Evilwhiteguy

    The very same Ben Barnes who has raised about $500,000 for the Kerry campaign (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/06/18/politics/main624711.shtml). Gee, no conflict of interest there.

    Also, there’s this quote from Barnes (http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040828_194.html), “I got a young man named George W. Bush into the National Guard when I was lieutenant governor of Texas, and I’m not necessarily proud of that, but I did it”. But Barnes was Lt. Governor from 1969 to 1973. Bush was already in the Guard when Barnes became Lt. Governor.

    Also, if you look back at what he said in 1999 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/19990927/aponline190140_000.htm) you find this from a statement released by his lawyer.

    “Neither Congressman Bush nor any other member of the Bush family asked Barnes’ help. Barnes has no knowledge that Governor Bush or President Bush knew of Barnes’ recommendation,” the statement said.”

    So by his own admission, no Bush family member asked for the help, Barnes did it all on his own.

  • curt

    you’re talking out of both sides of your mouth. first you say that barnes’ claims are false, that “bush was already in the guards when he became lt. governor”…then in the next breath you believe him, that “barnes did it all on his own.” huh??? you flip-flop more than ol’ gw did when he couldn’t decide whether to get drunk or snort cocaine!!!

  • http://www.evilwhiteguy.com/blog Evilwhiteguy

    The facts state that Bush was already in when Barnes became Lt. Governor. That part really isn’t debatable.

    Saying that “Barnes did it all on his own” is just an affirmation of his statement where he says no one in the Bush family asked for his help.

    So if anyone is flip-flopping, it’s Barnes, I’m just pointing out a timeline and quoting his statement.

  • curt

    it’s been 30 years since my usnr service, i’ve forgotten a lot, but one thing i remembered was the length of enlistment. it’s 6 years, as was kerry’s (1966-72). go to http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Record_of_Discharge.pdf. “normal date of expiration of enlistment: 17 feb 72…type of discharge: honorable” – what branch of the military were you in, evilwhiteguy?

  • http://www.evilwhiteguy.com/blog Evilwhiteguy

    I signed up for the Navy when I was 18, but was turned down for medical reasons, so I was never actually in the military. But not for lack of trying.

    I can understand the six-year enlistment, but since you were in the military and I was not, maybe you can explain something that I’m not understanding here. I did see the PDF you posted and it does list 1972 as a discharge date. However, the one I listed is dated in 1978. Why would there be a six-year gap between those two documents?

  • curt

    evilwhiteguy,
    i don’t know about the other 6 years either (’72-78). i checked out the site you referred and it does show 1978. maybe there was an inactive 6 year term(??) someone w/more expertise than i will have to answer that. i’m definitely the wrong person to ask because i can’t even remember what outfit i was in. it seems to me that i got an honorable discharge from 2 years active (’71-73) and then a medical discharge (7 weeks in the hospital with a bad back) after 2 years reserves. i’m a little ashamed of my service now, i could’ve done more, but at least i served. this whole thing of combat veterans against combat veterans saddens me, i think it hurts all veterans. especially when the talking/writing heads who DID NOT serve (like rush limbaugh, michael savage, laura ingraham, michael reagan, michael medved, kathleen parker, etc.) cheer it on from the sidelines.

  • http://www.evilwhiteguy.com/blog Evilwhiteguy

    Looks like Gary Trudeau is going to have to cut that $10,000 check…

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-02-13-bush-military_x.htm

  • curt

    ewg –
    i went there…”requested document not found”…what’s the guy’s name?

  • charlie

    WOW! forged documents. CBS won’t say where they got them. Can you say Terry at the DNC!!! How low can you go!!!!!

  • http://www.evilwhiteguy.com/blog Evilwhiteguy

    Weird, it works for me. Here’s the first three paragraphs:

    A retired Alabama Air National Guard officer said Friday that he remembers George Bush showing up for duty in Alabama in 1972, reading safety magazines and flight manuals in an office as he performed his weekend obligations.

    “I saw him each drill period,” retired Lt. Col. John “Bill” Calhoun said in a telephone interview with The Associated Press from Daytona Beach, Fla., where he is preparing to watch this weekend’s big NASCAR race.

    “He was very aggressive about doing his duty there. He never complained about it. … He was very dedicated to what he was doing in the Guard. He showed up on time and he left at the end of the day.”

    Maybe it will work in link form.

    Link works from the preview, I don’t know why you can’t see it.

  • http://www.evilwhiteguy.com/blog Evilwhiteguy

    charlie,

    You’ve got it all wrong. Carl Rove forged the documents and leaked them to CBS knowing that CBS is a bunch of Kerry lackeys and wouldn’t bother to check the documents out before running with them. McAuliffe isn’t that good.

  • Charlie

    EWG

    actually what happened was the documents were given to the Whitehouse. Since the WH is honest they immediately released them without verifying them. This follows the pattern that they have established of being upfront and handing over all documents they can find.

  • http://www.evilwhiteguy.com/blog Evilwhiteguy

    Hey, I was right about Carl Rove. At least Terry McAuliffe says so…

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20040910-011417-2610r.htm

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    Since the WH is honest they immediately released them without verifying them.

    Honey, the White House knew they were going to be released on 60 Minutes. That’s why they immediately released them without vetting them.

    And that’s about the most positive scenario I can think of. This White House is anything but honest.

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    It wasn’t Friday, it was February, and the guy was discredited back then. For instance:

    George W. Bush won no medals for his disputed National Guard duty in the land of Dixie, but he earned a nickname: “the Texas Soufflé.”

    Murphy Archibald remembers Bush, then 26, as a loudmouth who showed up in Montgomery, Ala., in 1972 to work on his uncle Winton Blount’s Senate campaign.

    “[He] was good at schmoozing the county chairs, but there wasn’t a lot of followup,” Archibald told Time magazine in its latest issue. Another worker recalled Bush rolling into Blount headquarters around lunchtime most days, bragging about his late-night exploits and big-time political connections.

    Archibald said Bush made the greatest impression on a group of socialites doubling as campaign volunteers, who dubbed W “the Texas Soufflé” because he “looked good on the outside but was full of hot air.”

    The only seemingly credible witness to vouch for Bush is retired Lt. Col. John (Bill) Calhoun, who insists he saw Bush report for weekend duty in Alabama. But Calhoun’s memory seems about as spotty as some of the military documents.

    Calhoun, of Atlanta, initially said he saw Bush report for Guard duty “eight to 10 times for roughly eight hours at a time from May to October 1972.” Later, he said he saw Bush report for drills “on at least six occasions.”

    And in an interview this weekend with the Daily News, Calhoun said he saw Bush attend “at least four drills.”

    Bush’s records credit him with two days in October and two in November.

    Calhoun, 69, a former National Guard supply officer, attributed the varying numbers to reporters’ confused interpretations, and said the Guard defines a “drill” as a weekend of duty in the one-weekend-per-month cycle. “So if I saw him at six drills, that’s 12 days,” Calhoun said.

    Calhoun’s explanation was even knocked yesterday by retired Texas Air National Guard Lt. Col. Albert Lloyd Jr., who Bush picked in 2000 and again recently to review his records and vouch that he met his Guard obligation. Texas Soufflé

    Bush hasn’t changed a bit.

  • http://www.evilwhiteguy.com/blog Evilwhiteguy

    Calhoun’s lying, all 250+ Swift Vets are lying, everyone’s lying. Gotcha.

  • http://www.jackejett.com jack e. jett

    in reality, it doesn’t matter. bush is a fucking moron and a pussy to boot.
    he will win the election, and non fundies will hate him even more. except now, we will join the name calling, venom spewing brigade that the right wing has enjoyed for so long.

    the sad part is that so many innocent lives will be lost and the united states will become even more revolting to other countries. that will not matter cause jesus will be walking the halls of the white house and making everything pretty.

    the one thing we have learned in the past four years is that hate is an under rated emotion and judging others can make one feel better about our lives.

    george w., george h, barbara, laura, are right wing whores, but they whore in the name of jesus, so we love them and forgive them.

    jack e. jett

  • http://www.tude.com/ Hal Pawluk

    Yes, Calhoun was lying, many of the swifties in the ad were proven to be lying, Cheney is a liar (check his latest), Ed Gillespie and whoever came up with the anti-Kerry lies in the Bush ads are liars, Dan Bartlett is a liar (he says he misspoke about Bush’s Guard service) and many others on the right are proven liars.

    Is that your idea of “bringing integrity to the White House?”

    On top of which, Jett got it right and “Bush is a fucking moron and a pussy to boot.”

    Is that your idea of the ideal leader for this country?

  • http://www.resonation.ca Jim Carruthers

    This morning on CBC radio they had three ‘murricans who live in Canada talking about your upcoming election charade. And immediately the representative Republican started spewing lies and disinfo. He railed about moveon.org “hitler” ads which didn’t exist and never were ads, Sadly, nobody called him on his lies, so is this what passes for political discourse in the States, slander, smear and lies?

    Has it come to the USA become the international laughing stock the USSR enjoyed in the early 80s. I guess so. Of course to really defeat the USSR, you need to run a dead man as the glorious leader.

  • curt

    carl rove, another chickenhawk draft dodger.

  • charlie

    someone tell me again why we should care what france or germany want? someone tell me again why we give a shit about the EU. Tell me again why we should involve the EU in our decisions on homeland defense?

    We do what we have to do.

    The EU, location of every major war last century, home of ethic cleansing, home of violent anti-american demonstrations should be trying to tell us how to defend ourselves?

    screw them!

  • Jon

    I agree, SCREW THEM! If it wasn’t for the USA. they would all be, oh wait a minute, I guess they already ARE, second rate countries. We saved their asses b-4 and I’m sure we’ll do it again…(maybe)..probably from each other (like b-4). If anyone is a fukin mo-ron, it’s the Democratic party as a whole. This President isn’t asking others how to defend ourselves! As for the lefts little groups like “Move-On” (which they will NEVER do) they are nothing but a bunch of smelly socialists (literally) who want this country to “move on” to socialism. You lefties never cease to amaze me. You love anyone who sees things from your convaluted point of view, but if you don’t – you’re a S.O.B. Funny how the side that claims compassion – has NONE for anyone but themselves. You guys couldn’t understand freedom if it wacked ya upside the noodle! Your anger toward freedom and the American way is just amazing. Face it you mo-ron’s, we have finally blown your cover and exposed you for what you are. SOCIALISTS (ie: commies). A REPUBLICAN brought down the U.S.S.R. and another has exposed you for what you are. Dan Rather (another leftie) has finally been exposed for what he is…who’s next? HA! Idiots………

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    Kerry’s crew are getting desperate now that they’ve blown their lead. Expect this race to get even uglier and dirtier than before (if that’s even possible)…

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    BTW, I received my copy of the book in the mail the other day, but I have yet to begin reading it. The power just came back on tonight, and I wasn’t about to read by flashlight… :-/

  • Rodger

    GW Bush’s cheating to get into the National Guards, consequent desertion, now lying about what really happened and his latest manipulation and deceit to invade Iraq has gotten the attention of two high-ranking military men, General Tony McPeak and Admiral Stansfield Turner.

    “Until we know the truth about President Bush’s military service – how he got into the Guard, how and why he neglected his duty, how and why he was not disciplined – this issue will hang around and smell up the place,” General McPeak said.

    “The President dishonored the Guards decades ago, and he dishonors them today by the way he misuses and mistreats them,” Admiral Turner said. “He’s turned our Guard and Reserve forces into a backdoor draft – extending tours, issuing stop-loss orders and activating members of the Individual Ready Reserve. George Bush owes them the truth about his own service and needs to answer questions about his commitment to our Armed Forces.”

  • http://www.thehunterslife.com Sharon

    Whatever you libbies want to say but I’ll take my strong fellow Texan anyday of the week over a traitor who met with the North Vietnamese three times and caused our pow’s more pain and suffering. I can’t believe the man is daring to run for president of this great country when he should have been tried and convicted for high treason years ago. Between him and Hanoi Jane it’s no wonder we lost. The arabs are already grinning and waiting for him to take the whitehouse and go apologize to them for american atrocities. GAG!!

  • curt

    what war were you in, sharon?
    – curt, usn (’70-74)

  • http://www.thehunterslife.com Sharon

    Curt, sir, I was ten years old in your first year of service but I traded my best barbie doll for a pow/mia bracelet which I so very proudly wore until it literally broke in half. I prayed for that soldier for a very long time as a child. I am the great great grandaughter of 11th Alabama PFC Pressley.W.T., who fought proudly for the confederacy and lost his arm at the battle of Antietam.

    I am the proud neice of two KOrean War Veterans, and the mother of three sons, one of whom is serving in the Air National Guard.

    I am the owner of a large forum where we built a subforum for our military men.

    I am the author of the Poem, Not Alone at the Wall.

    I am a member of a long line of servicemen who gave much for this country. As such I shudder at the thought of facing a world full of terrorists with a hippy war protesting traitor at the helm of my great country.

  • http://www.thehunterslife.com Sharon

    I mean to say I am a member of a family with a long line of service to this nation. sorry but with the taking of words and twisting them by some, I wanted to clarify.

  • curt

    sharon,
    a few questions:
    1) since you were of service age at the time of the 1st gulf war, why didn’t you enlist and volunteer for combat?
    2) having a son in the ang, how do you feel about gw bush deserting his last 18 months of ang meetings?
    3) you refer to kerry as a “hippy war protesting traitor.” is it possible…that gw bush’s jumping in front of a waiting list of 500 men to get into the guards, checking the box “do not volunteer for overseas duty” and then skipping out on his commitment…was a silent protest of the war?
    4) does your hatred for kerry have anything to do with the fact that he’s a yankee?
    – curt

  • http://www.thehunterslife.com Sharon

    Question number one:
    I was pregnant and suffering complications in all three instances. 1979/80 1982/83 and 1984/85. By the time that was done they wouldn’t have wanted me or let me in with the problems I was having.

    Had I had good enough health I would GLADLY have joined up to serve. My choice was the Marines. I wanted to serve my country even though I am female.

    Question number 2:
    Let’s say for a moment that you are correct which I don’t know and I am in doubt of that you are right. Even if in youth he was irresponsible which often happens when all of us are that age, it in no way equals what John Kerry did by aiding and abetting the enemy. I did things in my youth that I am not proud of as I am sure you did. Am I the same person I was when I was 20? Not even! and I would bet you aren’t either. But youthful mistakes are one thing, turning on your fellow soldiers knowing what it might cause to further your political career is unforgiveable.

    3. No, given what I have read, seen and heard, I know GWB in fact volunteered twice to serve in Vietnam as a pilot but wasn’t accepted. Also when your that age and your parents are more in control of your future, some of what you assert is probably to do with what parents wanted and has happened from the time of the Civil War when rich parents bought “safe” passage in one way or another for their children. I am still not convinced that this is what happened because of the integrity of the first Pres. Bush. I do know that those men I am aquainted with who were in the gaurd are deeply offended by the notion that theirs was a free ride.

    While their brothers were off fighting in vietnam they were having to try to come to the aid of a war at home. Campuses and towns like chicago etc.. bottles and such thrown at them hate pouring over them for no reason. Theirs was not the easiest task either and ever time someone says oh President Bush got off light by being in the Gaurd, they just go nuts. You keep harping on the fact that supposedly gw dodged some months of service but hey.. he served for YEARS!! Kerry was in and out in four measly MONTHS!!!! and opted out as soon as he could run away.!!
    So no in answer to your question I can’t even begin to equate what the one fortunate son did with what J. Kerry another fortunate son did concerning the war. Irresponsible behavior and Treason are not one and the same by any stretch!

    Question number 4:

    Come on now, a daughter of the south I may well be but I don’t hate John Kerry first of all, I FEAR him. I fear so deeply for my country if he should win the election. It has nothing to do with him being a yankee. Bill Clinton was a southerner and look at what he did. The dems try to say how GW has lost the respect and bla bla of the world. Bill Clinton did that worse than anybody could have and brought shame and disgrace to the highest office. Someone above said something stupid about how that was done all because a woman came on to him. GIVE ME A BREAK!!! She was barely a woman and so young she was close in age to his daughter. He is supposed to be one of the most brilliant minds. He manipulated that entire thing and LIED RIGHT TO OUR FACES REMEMBER!!!???????
    GW is accused of lying to the american people over and over when everyone knows how intelligence is something very hard to gain and often tainted by the wishes of foreign interests. Not his fault. Billy boy on the other hand, took advantage of a young girl, then threw her to the wolves. SO NO it doesn’t matter where someone comes from, north or south, what matters is character. George Bush has proven to be of good character, and strong as well. I do not fear that he will be using cigars in a gross way in the same office where Abraham Lincoln sat. I do not fear that he will change his mind every day with the blowing of the wind. I do not fear that my first lady will embarrass us with crude behavior because Laura is a lady. In plain and simple words with GW at the helm I DO NOT FEAR!

    if John Kerry should win and it looks less likely every day, then I WOULD FEAR!!! All Americans would have grave cause to fear. Might terror attacks continue.. yes they can and they will but at least I would know that GW was ON IT and doing the very best a man could to keep us safe.

    whew.. any more questions?

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    There are lots of strange “facts” in Sharon’s last comment, but this one takes the cake:

    “I know GWB in fact volunteered twice to serve in Vietnam as a pilot but wasn’t accepted.”

  • curt

    sharon,
    at least you had the guts to want to serve, unlike dick “chickenhawk” cheney and his 5 draft-dodging deferments!
    – curt

  • charlie

    [edited]

  • http://www.thehunterslife.com Sharon

    Curt or anyone, Can you tell me because I truly do not know, what and how is this deferment thing work?

  • curt

    sharon,
    here’s how they worked (to the best of my knowledge and faded memory):
    during the vietnam war, there were approximately 12 million young men of service age who did not serve in the military, most of whom were exempt from the draft due to a deferment. the 3 main types being a student deferment, a family deferment or a medical deferment.
    student deferment – if you were going to college, you could not be drafted.
    family deferment – if you had children or if you were from a single parent family who needed your financial help, you could apply for a family deferment.
    medical deferment – if you failed a physical, you could receive a medical deferment.
    since the draft was performed annually, student and family deferments were awarded 1 year at a time, a medical deferment exempted you permanently.
    the most prominent guys who dodged the draft with student deferments were bill clinton, john ashcroft and karl rove.
    rush limbaugh used student deferments and a medical deferment (for an ingrown hair on his butt).
    dick cheney used a total of 5 deferments (student and family) to dodge the draft.
    – curt

  • Rodger

    Concerning Sharon’s comment, “…but hey, GW served for YEARS!! Kerry was in and out in four measly MONTHS!!!! and opted out as soon as he could run away!!”

    In WWII During D-Day, June 6, 1944, over 7,000 men were killed in the first hour of the invasion. Would you say to any of the families of those 7,000, “They were in and out in one measly HOUR!!” (?)

    When you’re exposed to enemy fire, it only takes an instant to lose your life. Casting aspersions on a combat veteran’s service says more about you than about your target.

    And yes, GW Bush served 4 years of his 6 year commitment; but considering the fact that someone else (who didn’t have his connections) perhaps died face down in the mud in Vietnam in his place, he could’ve at least had the decency and integrity to fulfill the last 2 years of his cushy obligation.

    We do agree on one thing, Sharon. It goes back to a person’s character. And I believe GW Bush’s LACK of character is glaringly apparent in his disrespect for our military by walking away from the 1 million dollars that the U.S. taxpayer invested in his training after only 2/3 of his obligation.

  • Jon

    MAN, this hase been a FUN week of watching the left crack up! And it’s only Monday! Another…..one…..bites…..the…..dust…..See ya, Dan Rather!

  • D.I.

    Gotta disagree with the lady, Bush’s AWOL was most definitely a form of protest, but it didn’t help stop the war. General Douglas MacArthur warned us before we got involved over there that we couldn’t win a gorilla-type war in Vietnam. At least Kerry, who EARNED the right to protest by serving in combat, had the guts to stand up for what he believed in and helped stop the waste of 58,000 lives. How many thousands more would’ve died in vain if not for the protestors? 5,000? 10,000?? 25,000??? Because the politicians and the rich lawyers sure as Hell weren’t going to get us out of there – they didn’t care, it wasn’t their sons (like G.W. Bush and Rush Limbaugh) being sacrified!!

  • curt

    i liked maureen o’dowd’s comment regarding gw bush’s quagmire in iraq: “his daddy won’t be able to get him out of this war.”

  • Jon

    Curt, I guess you would rather that the dictator was still in charge. All Kerry wants to do is turn this over to the U.N…here is a question for you, name ONE “conflict” that the U.N. has EVER resolved…(answer: zilch) The U.N. is the most corrupt, enept, useless organization this planet has ever had & your “boy” just wants to hand this over to them. Great plan…NOT. Keep watching, your “boy’s” campaign is getting MIGHTY close to being tied to those fake documents & the feeble attempt at making a case against W’s service record…Joe Lockharts story about his conversation with Burkett was pathetic at best. Bill Burkett’s biggest problem was trusting the Democratic party…PERIOD. Rather & co. have been exposed for what they are…liberal lackys! And good ol’ Terry McAuliffe is just adding fuel to the fire by being a conspiracy NUT. We are dealing with FELONIES here, you think Watergate was bad, this makes that look like nothing….Maybe Martha Stewart will have some cellmates…SOON. You guys have completely lost it! (and it is hillarious to me!)….Modern liberals = commies. Nuff said….

  • curt

    “our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. they never stop about thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.”
    george w. bush
    (your “boy”)

  • Jon

    Smoooth, Curt….Shall I get the (BIG) file of f-up’s your “boy” has made … well, jeeez, THIS WEEK ALONE? You are going to a gun fight with a STICK..not even a knife. Dosn’t matter how ya say it, it’s the RESULTS tha matter, my liberal friend.. You guys are B U S T E D & I’m LOVIN it! With the amount of rage & hatred YOU and urs have, U need Prozac or something..just to be in the real world. Ur funny..

  • curt

    dear chickenhawk,
    if our role is to be the world’s policeman, overthrowing governments with evil dictators, then why don’t we invade china? they murder thousands of innocent babies every year for population control.

  • Rodger

    In G.W. Bush’s autobiography A CHARGE TO KEEP: MY JOURNEY TO THE WHITEHOUSE, he confesses that at first he supported the Vietnam War but then changed his mind towards the end. “My inclination was to support the government and the war until proven wrong,” Bush wrote, “and that only came later, as I realized that we could not explain the mission, had no exit strategy and did not seem to be fighting to win.”

    I submit that GW’s actions in 1972 and 1973 – intentionally grounding himself by missing his physical and subsequently abandoning his post by going AWOL – were indeed an act of silent protest against the war. He admits that he was opposed to the war, he just didn’t have to worry about going himself while safe at home snorting cocaine and guzzling booze.

    At least Kerry, who earned the right to protest by serving in combat, had the nerve to take a public stand against the rich, fat, old politicians who were sending our youth to their deaths in Southeast Asia.

  • curt

    hey jon –
    just watched the debate…yur boy looked a little smug and acted a little wishy-washy…guess that’s the difference between a combat vet and a guard deserter…

  • Jon

    Hey Curt, your boy just passed on more LIES, like the “backdoor draft” another liberal LIE…Oh yea, he suggested we give IRAN the rods for nuke power …hmmm. just like your buddy Bill ” the freakin commie” Clinton. That was a GOOD plan, huh? Of course Kerry was relaxed, hell he dosn’t have a real job..when is the last time he showed up for his “work” as a Senator? Hmmm….He had plenty of time to get manicure, hair job, etc…At least Bush shows up for work every day….typical liberal, your boy…I do believe Bush was out checking the hurricane damege to Fla. the same day. Lets see your “commie supporter” Kerry put in a day like that & be on his game that night. Commies like you are all the same. When are YOU gonna toss (any) medals or ribbons over a wall? OR have you already done that? You calling Me a Chickenhawk is like the pot calling the kettle black, my liberal friend….Bush has a reason to look smug, HE IS RIGHT. Wait till the next debate, my commie buddy….

  • curt

    yo chickenhawk –

    “the president has turned our guards and reserve forces into a backdoor draft; extending tours, issuing stop-loss orders and activating members of the individual ready reserve,” according to admiral stansfield turner.

    turner is a four-star admiral who commanded the sixth fleet in the mediterranian sea during the cold war. he is a rhodes scholar and a former director of the cia.

    but i’m sure you know more about how the military operates than admiral turner…right, war-wimp? by the way, remind us again about your own military experience – was it from playing x-box? or maybe from listening to (chickenhawk draft-dodger) rush limbauh on the radio?

  • Jon

    OK Curt, If that’s the way you wanna play…
    Yo, Commie supporter, tell me how a volunteer service is a draft? How the hell does that happen? Do the reserves sign a “contract”? Yep. Guess what, sometimes reserves get called up. *WOW* ain’t that something? BTW, what did your buddy Bill (the draft dodger) Clinton do with the military? Hmmmmm…sent ‘em everywhere in the world with NO support or hell, even a mission. At least Rush Limbaugh didn’t motha-fuk the nation while not going to Vietnam. Your side DID, just like (the commie) Kerry did. I gave him props for his service, but once he made that FOUR month stint (complete with home made “hero” videos) he flat out supported the commies. Hell, a jiggalo like Kerry could have gotten hitched to Jane Fonda & had a helluva time…protesting this country…The only people even mentioning a draft are the democrats & YOU. BTW, Curt, how do I know you were ever in the service? Anyone can say that on the internet. You toss them ribbons/medals over a wall yet? ou sure don’t sound like you are supporting the troops NOW, is that because of your blinding hatred on W? See ya, commie.

  • curt

    chickenhawk jon,

    i could care less whether you believe if i served or not. i know what i did and i know what i didn’t do. unlike your boy, i don’t need to lie about my service. you know, i was stationed at navcomsta hono at the same time (1971-73) that gw was supposed to be serving in the 187th ang in alabama and i can recall at least 15-20 guys i served with; i remember their names and where they were from. which is another reason i know that your boy is a phoney and a liar – he hasn’t been able to come up with even a single lousy witness that he was there and didn’t go awol. “texans for truth” has offered a $50,000 reward for anyone who witnessed him at dannelly…no one has collected.

    rush lardbaugh, another one of your idols, dodged the draft by receiving a medical deferment for a cyst on his ass and then didn’t have the guts to admit it, lying that he had some spurious “footbal knee.” lardbaugh motha-fuked the guy who didn’t have his daddy’s money and connections and had to take his place over there, perhaps dying face down in the mud in vietnam.

    by serving in combat, saving a man’s life and being wounded, john kerry earned the right to protest against the fat, old politicians and lawyers (whose kids didn’t have to go, like gw and lardbaugh) who were sending our youth to die in a war that was making them richer selling war machines. we lost 58,000 boys over there, and had not the protestors helped stop the senseless killing, we might’ve lost another 50,000. even gw bush himself admitted in his book that he was against the war; “…i realized that we could not explain the mission, had no exit strategy and did not seem to be fighting to win.” so i guess that makes your boy a commie too, war-wimp.

  • Jon

    Commie Curt,
    Well as usual you’re off the mark. Your boy. Yea, he did serve in combat, the saving of a man’s life is very questionable, as described by others on Swift boats in the same area. Seems in his haste to flee, the guy fell off of the boat & Kerry DID return to pluck him out of the water. So in a way, I guess you are right…he saved his life AFTER he almost cost him his life. A common theme with your boy “flip flop”. Also, his “wounds” were very questionable as well. With his standards I should have about 5,000 purple hearts. By his “protesting” and meeting with the enemy, you call that Patriotic? I’m sure the P.O.W.’s back then sure didn’t think so….

    As for W, funny how you guys can make sooooo many claims & NONE stick. You guys have to fabricate papers on top of that. Well, you’re busted, huh? Rather lover. Kerry’s lies, flip flops, etc. are from his own mouth, documented in print, audio, and video. The left was so desperate to find a “war hero” to act like they cared about the security of this nation that they even tried to “steal” McCain over to their convaluted side. Didn’t work, huh?

    As for Limbaugh, if he got a legal deferment, that’s the way it goes. You guys fear him and the light of truth he shines on you libs. It must suck being so angry all the time. Dig out your old stash and fire one up. You might learn to enjoy life…

    See ya commie lover…

  • curt

    ya talk the talk, chickenhawk…
    but ya’ve never walked the walk.

  • http://www.jackejett.com jack e. jett

    the swifty’s are very pretty men. i like them. they are much better looking when they don’t wear as much lipstick as laura (pot selling) bush.
    nonetheless, i am sure that they have vast experience in the sea poon tang biz and it serves them well.
    i admire them for being more talented media whores than myself.
    they dream of being the next dr. phil.
    it sad to see grown me grovel. it smudges their lipstick and smears their eyeliner.

    jack e. jett
    fox reporter
    in training

  • Jon

    That’s the response(s) I expected….

  • Jon

    Hey Curt, excellent answer! You just continue to prove my point…you libs are nothing but sad, angry, commie lovers. “Funny” thing is, you leftists would be the 1st to get “offed” if these pinheads get their way. Hmmmmmm… I never served in the Military. I signed up for the selective service on my 18th b-day though. I know people like YOU, Curt, say I am a chickenhawk, nah…I doubt that. I am supporting the President (Commander In Cheif) in a time of war..you are not. I pay taxes, and vote. How many of your family members never served? Are THEY “chicken hawks” too? I doubt it. I support this country and our troops 110% & I have NEVER “motha-fuked” it, like you are doing now, my liberal friend. BTW, it’s 2004 not 1970…times haved changed. Like Reagan, I really like this President. He gets the job done, loves his country, is a relgious man, and dosn’t play games with our enemies. This crap has to stop. These people are cold blooded murderers. You can’t deny that. Pop a “cap” in their ass” and move on to a better world. You libs just want to think it is 1992 again. well, it ain’t. Time for talkin’ is over. Curt, you are intellectually boring to me. You are driven by a deep irrational hatred of Bush. You REALLY need to break out the old stash and mellow out & actually think for a change. See ya, commie lover…

  • curt

    yo, chickenhawk jon…

    maybe you and the rest of the right wing draft dodgers like rush limbaugh, dick cheney, karl rove and john ashcroft should get together over in iraq…you know – make up for missing out on all the combat you pretend to know so much about…

    later on, war-wimp

  • Jon

    Oh yea, Curt…like you were in the battle zone. see ya, commie “war wimp / chickenhawk / commie lover” at least we are gettin the job done NOW….must be miserable to be so mad all the time. At least most you m-f actually have been to the war zone (front line) …ie: Bush, Rumsfeld went to the front lines, unlike ANYONE you support..BTW, when did Kerry go to Iraq? Hmmmm…NEVER. Just like the French.. (Oh yea, except for taking $$$$$$$$$$ from Saddam)… In case you didn’t notice, I never “dodged the draft”. I was 10 years old when you “went into the service”. Oh yea, that makes me and 95% of the American population “unfit” to have an opinion or love my country. Typical liberal view. Go hug a tree or save a bug somewhere Curt. That would do ya good….Ur turbin is too tight…Smoke another one, libby.

  • Eric Olsen

    this thread has become an interesting if crude synecdoche of the entire debate over the war

    BTW, Kenny Loggins was in the Danger Zone

  • curt

    chickenhawk –
    when bush and rumsfeld “went to the front lines,” did they happen to see osama bin laden or alqeada, the real attackers of 9/11? or any weapons of mass destruction? by the way, it’s only 87% who haven’t served, not 95; you’re not as big a majority as you claim.

  • Jon

    Libby,
    So you al queda is one guy, huh? I think ol osama is about down to bare bone by now, but who knows. I do know this a lot of his buddies are in pieces now, and more every day. Only 87% huh, oh well, I guess that matters to only you. Libs never look at the big picture, I guess due to the capacity of their noggins. You guys are entertaining, though. That’s OK, we’ll take care of it while you whine & frown….

  • curt

    chickenhawk jon –
    what? “…we’ll take care of it…” huh?? how are YOU gonna “take care of it,” paper soldier? by waving your flag harder? what a sacrifice.

    it’s easy to act brave and spout war slogans while safely at home in front of your computer, while someone else actually serves and dies in your place over there – isn’t it jon. that’s what a chickenhawk is.

  • Jon

    Hey Libby, is your current mailing address Baghdad? Nope. So don’t preach to me about not doing anything about it…At least I support the troops, which apparently YOU DON’T. I fly MY flag proudly and have shook the hands of every service man (or woman) & THANKED THEM FOR THEIR SERVICE I have seen for YEARS. BTW, there were hundreds of thousands of soldiers that died while YOU didn’t do anything in the past & present. What the hell are YOU doing now (except for motha-fuking the troops now (just like your “boy” Kerry is doing now)?? It is EASY to be a commie supporter in front of a computer safely at home while soldiers are dying to defend this nation NOW, just like YOU are doing. At least I support the commander in cheif and all of our brave troops. You just bitch and moan. The more I think about it, YOU are a chickenhawk.. See ya, commie.

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    Penis fight!

  • Jon

    That’s a GOOD one! :) Heck, I ain’t lookin for a fight, but this guy just wants to call me names & I’m returning the same…plus he dosn’t wanna even try to defend his side point O’ view..since he can’t! I find it kinda fun! I LOVE it when the left is crackin’ up! GOOD call! HA!

  • Jon

    Oh, BTW SHARON..You da babe! ;)

  • curt

    chickenhawk jon –

    just more verification of how out of touch with reality you x-box warriors are, comparing paying taxes, flying a flag and shaking hands with serving in combat.

    hey war-wimp, wanna make an easy $25,000? texans for truth are offering a $50,000 reward to anyone who witnessed gw bush at dannelly afb in 1972. all you you gotta do is find ONE guy who saw your boy there – i’m sure they’ll split the 50g with ya.

    concerning your comment about “…fearing rush lardbaugh because he shines the light of truth on you libs”…that fat slob couldn’t even tell the truth about how he dodged the draft. he chickened out because of a sore bummy, and then made up some phoney “football knee” lie.

    by the way, is lardbaugh your example of a shining right-wing role model? a drug addict who was taking illegal prescription drugs at the same time he was condemning other drug addicts? what a hypocrite!!

    curt, usn ’70-74

  • Jon

    Boy, talk about the pot calling the kettle black…Just where in Vietnam did you serve again? How many purple hearts do you have again? How about now, what are you doing to serve the country? You probably have an upside down flag hanging above your computer…You’re lil statement about the 50K is getting pretty boring…hey, I have an idea, why don’t you just make up some fake documents & say YOU saw G.W. at the AFB? That seems to be the preferred method of “getting the goods” on G.W….
    As for Limbaugh, I guess you have a reason to hate him..largest radio contract EVER. I guess people just pay that kind of sum for a big fat lier, huh? That makes “sense”.

    I know your type just thinks the reserves are “draft dodgers” and don’t deserve to be counted as those who serve their country.

    Oh yea, did you hear the latest? The world “body” that your boy Kerry wants us to answer to so much (U.N.) just said today that they “couldn’t handle” the violence in the Sudan. Just like EVERY other conflict these morons ever stick their head into. This is the group your boy wants us to “ask” if this country can defend itself. WHEW…it’s time for you to make another foil hat, libby…

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    Kerry hates America…that’s why he had Michael Moore as an esteemed guest at the DNC…he should run for Sec. Gen. of the UN instead, since France isn’t going to have a Presidential election for quite a while…

  • curt

    a rush limbaugh limmerick:

    rush said he supported the war,
    when the draft called he knew what for;
    on his rear was a cyst,
    vietnam he would miss,
    ’cause his bummy was just too sore!

  • D.I.

    In his autobiography, George Bush, Sr. wrote in the late 1990s why he believed that invading and attempting to occupy Iraq was not a good idea: “An occupation of Iraq would have incurred incalculable human and political costs…there was no viable exit strategy…Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land.”

  • curt

    chickenhawk jon;

    since you bring up the evils of forged documents, your boy, gw bush, actually knowingly used forged documents about 18 months before dan rather did.

    in making his case for a pre-emptive invasion of iraq, bush charged that suddam hussein had attempted to by enriched uranium from nigeria, a claim based on documents that were known to be forgeries even before he made the claim in the state of the union address.

    therefore i submit that you are a hypocrite, war-wimp jon, since you look the other way when your boy uses false documents but you crucify dan rather for the same tactic.

    see ya later, paper soldier.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    The latest Swift Vets ads can be found here

  • curt

    which war were you in, rj?

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    None, Starship Trooper curt. (And I’m guessing that’s the same number you’ve been in. REAL war vets don’t brag about having been in a war every chance they get. REAL heroes don’t call themselves heroes.)

    Anyway, the link I provided above shows some actual, genuine war veterans who served with Kerry. And they hate the man. All 260+ of them.

    Lots of the guys who talked of “war crimes” during the Winter Soldier investigation were pseudo-vets. I suspect the same can be said of you.

  • andy marsh

    Like I said in another post, if you read that book, unfit for command and believe just a tenth of it, there is no way you can vote for Kerry.

    P.S. I never saw combat, but I proudly served for 20.

  • curt

    chickenhawk rj:

    i never saw combat (never said i did), but at least i served – which is more than i can say for a number of right-wing war-wimps including dick cheney, john ashcroft, karl rove, rush limbaugh and yourself.

    if the swiftboat vets for truth want to cast aspersions on a fellow combat vet, that’s their purogative, they earned that right. but its a little bit different when an x-box warrior like yourself to denegrate the service of a combat vet who sustained wounds in action and saved a fellow g.i.’s life.

    in your so-called quest for the truth, have you found a link yet of anyone who witnessed gw bush at dannelly air force base, where he was supposed to report in 1972?

    as for the “psuedo-vet” accusation, i could care less how a phony flag-waver like yourself labels my service. i know what i did and didn’t do, i know where i was stationed, how long i was there and who i served with. i could’ve done more…but i did more than you did.

  • andy marsh

    let’s beat the guard dead horse some more…get this…I did 20 in the navy..and if there was a draft tomorrow I’d do everything in my power to make sure my kids didn’t have to serve…if I could get them in the guard, I would…if I could get them a deferment, I would. and anybody that says different about their own kids is just plain FULL OF SHIT!!! Bush never said a word about Kerry’s service other than to say that he honored it. The swiftvets are pissed because Kerry used a picture of all of them and said they supported him and it was BULLSHIT!!! Edwards said…if you want to know about John Kerry, ask the people that served with him…well the Swiftvets served with him and they think he has no honor. Yeah yeah…not all of them served with him…what ever…out of a picture of around 30 guys, 2 stand beside him and one of them is on his campaign staff which means he’s getting paid to stand beside him. The rest of them think he’s full of shit.

    The Edwards line is one of those, careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

  • andy marsh

    and speaking of service…how come it was never an issue when Clinton was president???

    Here’s one more little tidbit for you…in the reserves you’re required to “earn” points. You earn them by drilling, the requirement back then was 55 a year…Bush had over 500 by the time he was HONORABLY DISCHARGED. Did you get that…I’ll say it again…HONORABLY DISCHARGED.
    That equates to around 10 years of service…so let’s stop kicking this dead horse…Rather couldn’t get it to run and no one else can either!!!

  • curt

    andy –

    there are at least two high-ranking miltary personnel who disagree with you concerning gw bush’s service.

    tony mcpeak, a retired four star general who headed the u.s. air force during desert storm, said “until we know the truth about president bush’s military service – how he got into the guard, how and why he neglected his duty, how and why he was not disciplined – this issue will hang around and smell up the place.”

    “the president dishonred the guards decades ago, and he dishonors them today, by the way he misuses and mistreats them,” said admiral stansfield turner, u.s. navy (retired) and former c.i.a. director. “george bush owes them the truth about his own service and needs to answer questions about his commitment to our armed forces.”

    when asked about his 1972 obligation to the ang in alabama, i wonder why gw bush didn’t mention that he already had “550 hours,” instead of lying that he “didn’t do any flying at dannelly because they didn’t have the same kind of planes.” ??? the truth is he COULDN’T fly because he grounded himself by missing his physical in august 1971, thereby wasting $1 million the taxpayers had paid for his training.

  • curt

    chickenhawk rj;

    concerning your instructions on what “REAL war vets” and “REAL heroes” do and don’t do – i had 2 cousins and 3 classmates who served in ‘nam, lost 1 of each. so i don’t need any lectures from some hypocritical cyber-patriot like yourself who’s never served.

    i also know that REAL war vets don’t check the box “do NOT want to serve overseas” on their enlistment form (like gw bush did); and REAL heroes don’t abandon their post for 14 months (like gw bush did), which constitutes desertion.

    regarding your reference to “actual, genuine war veterans”, john mccain (would 5 1/2 years as a pow qualify?) said that the attack on john kerry’s service by the swiftboat vets for truth was “dishonest and dishonorable.”

  • Jon

    Curt,
    You are all over the place on this whole issue. You pick and choose who you call a hero. Whos picture is hanging in a war museam in Communist Vietnam as a “war hero”? Why openly collaborated with the enemy while the war was still going on? Who wants to “ask” for the U.N.’s permission to defend the homeland? Who wants the French & Germans “assistance” in this war? Who supplied arms that actually downed an A-10 in Iraq (freshly dated to boot)? Who was in ol Saddams back pocket during the build up to war? Who supports the countries that back stabbed us during the whole stinking process (for MONEY), etc. etc….it sure wasn’t Bush. You pick and choose “facts” very selectivly. You put down ANY vet that exposes Kerry’s lies and place any that support him on a pedistal..even if the ratio is about 25 to 1. You constantly harp on Bush’s record, although he was HONORABLY discharged. You compare blatently fake documents that Rather suggested as fact, but when just about every country that saw the doc’s on the Uranium believed them to be true. What about the recent report about nuclear materials & equipment that “disappeared” from Iraq after the war started? How the hell can these things disappear if the U.N. said they NEVER exsisted? You call anyone that disagrees with you stupid names & *screw them* if they served in the reserves or actually went to war. My family has war service (yep, WAR) dating back to WW1. THEY fought to give YOU the right to have your pinhead views. Any thanks from you on that? Oh yea, I didn’t serve, so *screw them*, huh? Funny you don’t talk much about the draft dodger Clinton that sent troops all over the world in harms way then let them die in the streets of Somalia for nothing. He emboldened the enemy & look what resulted from his actions. You sure like to use John McCains name a lot…even though Kerry made his life a living hell (and a LOT others). Dosn’t it seem strange to you that Kim Jong Il, Yasser Arafat, Hamas, etc. WANT Kerry to get elected? I doubt it. I could care less what “title” you assign to anyone who disagrees with you, it is very telling to me. You are just an angry-at-the-world leftist who supports a looser who wants the U.N.’s permission to defend our country. Once again, name just ONE “conflict” that the U.N. has ever had sucess in settling…(cricket..cricket..cricket..)..zilch. How many have the U.S. not only completed, but changed the agressor to a free society? W O W…
    On the fake documents, Rather produced blatently fake documents & is still swearing by them. The report you refer to on the uranium was believed by everyone (including your buddies the French & Germans). How about the report that just came out about nuclear materials & equipment that “dissappeard” after the start of this war? How can THAT be? We were told that Iraq didn’t have these things! Strange, huh?
    you need to TRIPLE up on them meds….

  • curt

    chickenhawk jon,

    i’ve never said anything against the reserves. in addition to being a phony hypocrite, you’re also a liar.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    Curt:

    Other than name-calling and bragging about your supposed non-war military service, what do you have to offer?

  • curt

    cyber patriot rj,

    you denegrate the service of a combat veteran, though you yourself have never worn the uniform or faced enemy fire; therefore, in my opinion, you are a phony.

    you cast aspersions on john kerry’s service in action, while at the same time ignoring gw bush’s desertion from the guards; therefore, in my opinion, you are a hypocrite.

    you promote and support the invasion of iraq, but won’t enlist and volunteer for combat, thereby forcing someone else to sacrifice life and limb in your place; therefore, in my opinion, you are a chickenhawk.

    every time you point your finger at someone else, rj, there will always be three fingers pointing back at yourself…

  • Jon

    Back at ya Curt. You call Bush a deserter, he was not..he was honorably discharged, you call anyone (enlisted, guard, drafted) that disagrees with Kerry liars therefore, you are a hypocrite and a liar. Once again, you cannot factually counter anything I have mentioned in prior posts regarding this war or this President. The left has a policy of “it’s the nature of the charge” and running with it…that is until the shoes on the other foot. Then they cry foul. Just one of many examples is the movie that was slated to run on Sinclair stations. They are screaming like a bunch of newborns…zilch about the tripe Michael Moore put out…hypocrites the whole lot of ya…

  • curt

    chickenhawk jon –

    if he didn’t desert his post and did in fact fulfill his duty at dannelly afb in 1972 as he was ordered, and you can find a truthful witness who saw him there, you’re entitled to half of the $50,000 reward offered by the texans for truth.

  • Jon

    Curt,
    You’re beating a dead horse.

  • curt

    chickenhawk jon –

    only because gw abandoned his post at dannelly, and NO ONE, i repeat, NO ONE has stepped forward to truthfully prove otherwise.

  • Jon

    Curt, what the hell are you smoking? If this were indeed true, how did he get an honorable discharge? Why is it you guys just can’t admit you can’t prove any of these nutty charges? If the left had proof af ANYTHING they claim towards Bush, you want me to believe it wouldn’t be in every newspaper & on every mainstream newscast? Gimme a break. The left is getting so freakin boring to me anymore…blah blah blah…all you do is hate Bush. Fine, but you still have to prove even one of your mind-bending charges. Of course, when the right has a whole slew of POW’s, people who served with him, SENATE testimony, etc etc etc, that dosn’t mean shit to you pinheads. How about the FACT that Kerry’s photo is hanging in the N. Vietmiese war museam as a HERO? How about the FACT that (I believe ABC) went to N. Vietnam to talk to the ENEMY to “verify” that Kerry was such a “war hero” and to dispute any of the charges against him by his fellow soldiers? OK, if you want to believe COMMIES over TRUE AMERICAN HEROS, go right ahead. That tells me and anyone who looks at your rants volumes. Once again, Curt, have you ever been to a Communist country? I have. I think you just might LIKE it there.

  • curt

    chickenhawk jon –

    how did gw bush, the son of a rich, powerful politician, get a dishonorable discharge after deserting his post?

    perhaps the same way he was able get into the texas national guards only 2 weeks before graduating from yale (and losing his student deferment), jumping to the front of a waiting list of 500 men who had signed-up before him…

    perhaps the same way he was promoted to 2nd lieutenant right after basic training, skipping regular military protocol and not having to attend several rigorous months of officer candidate school…

    …it’s called money, power, influence and connections.

    now, a question for you, war-wimp: how do you feel about your boy gw intentionally grounding himself by missing his physical in august, 1971, thereby wasting $1 million of taxpayer’s money on his training?

  • Jon

    Here we go again…boy, Curt you just don’t quit, do you? Deferements, money, son of a powerful politician, blah blah blah. He did serve, he did put in his time as a pilot, and he was honorably discharged. Because he didn’t serve in combat, that was money wasted, huh? $1 million is a bargain. Can you fly a fighter jet, Curt? Hell, I CAN pilot a boat. Hell, I could shoot myself in the ass (if I was that stupid). How about your *hero* Bill Clinton? Where was he during Vietnam? Oh yea, that shit dosn’t count, does it? How much money did Clinton waste on a BJ? NOW that’s stupid. Only way you would ever have any respect for anyone, is if they took enemy fire. Well, YOU didn’t, did ya? Therefore, you don’t even respect yourself. I’ll just bet if you were in line to go to Vietnam, you woulda loved to have had connections, wouldn’t you? You were in the reserves, right? By your own standards, you are a war-wimp. You are really starting to bore me with your idiocy, Curt. BTW, why aren’t YOU in Baghdad? HUH? Why didn’t YOU re-up? Pot callin’ the kettle black…

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    Post #400! Woo-Hoo!

    curt: How do you feel about Jane Fonda Kerry secretly meeting and negotiating with the Vietnamese Communists (the enemy) in France in 1970, while still a member of the armed services?

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    The penis fight continues.

    You guys have no idea how stoopid the “my service was REAL service and my family is better than your family and my great-great-great-great-great aunt mary is better than your great-great-great-great-great aunt mary because she was once married for three weeks to a guy who volunteered for the War of 1812 and stepped in front of a cannon to save a village of orphans while your great-great-great-great-great aunt mary sat on her rocker next to the fire and knitted sweaters. So my great-great-great-great-great aunt mary GAVE YOUR great-great-great-great-great aunt mary the freedom to knit those sweaters, you ingrate!” argument is.

  • Jon

    Hey, that was my great-great-great-great-great UNCLE. Jeeez…did you get that from FORGED documents? :) And *hello* those were coats, not sweaters… :0

  • curt

    chickenhawk jon –

    i’ve never said anything against the guards or the reserves – don’t put words in my mouth, ok war-wimp? what i’m opposed to are deserters, like gw bush.

    i’m not in bahgdad for 2 reasons: 1) i already served, remember? and 2) i disagree with the invasion and occupation of iraq, just like george bush, sr., did in his autobiography.

    you may be right that the $1 million we spent on gw’s training was not wasted; after all, before he went awol in ’72, oklahoma never attacked texas.

  • Jon

    Curt,
    You are pathetic. You DO dis’ the guards by calling Bush a deserter. Once again, HONORABLE DISCHARGE. Jeeezzz…Of course you oppose this war, it was done for a reason. You just can’t face reality. Millions of people freed from oppression, a chance at actual freedom, the deposing of a brutal dictator, a chance of changing the ever growing tide of extreamism, hell, who wouldn’t want to stop that? You libs can nit-pick all you want, don’t worry the grown ups will get the job done. I know you just want the U.N. to take care of business, just laike they have in the past..Oh yea, where was that again?

    You can call me all the names you want, but one you can’t call me is a freaking idiotic liberal. You are all talk, no substance, and quite frankly, an idiot. You are driven by pure hatred for Bush, that’s your version of “logic”. Having never been in the service, it is very apparent that I am a much bigger supporter of the military than you, but hey, you said you don’t support the “invasion & occupation” of (innocent) Iraq. That tells me volumes about you. You probably would have headed to Canada IF you were ever actually called to duty, since (in your words) you don’t “support” a war. I’ll just bet that was your mindset back in the 70’s, libby. Real soldiers don’t question the mission, they just do their job. Oh yea, I don’t deserve to have an opinion on this according to you. I just a “citizen” of this great country. Somehow you are “better” than me or most of this countries population. THat tells me alot about you too.

    This is my final point to you:

    Kerry is a backstabbing, lying, flip-flopping, U.N. supporting, taxing, ass kissing (France , Germany, Russia), fear mongering, piece of shit.

    Although I hate Bush’s domestic agenda, he is God fearing, plain speaking, non wavering anti terrorism, “screw ‘em” if they aren’t with us, cowboy helluva man.

    I’m voting Bush. You can vote for Socialism if you want. Screw ya, Curt.

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    Hey, this is funny:

    You are driven by pure hatred for Bush, that’s your version of “logic”.

    and

    Kerry is a backstabbing, lying, flip-flopping, U.N. supporting, taxing, ass kissing (France , Germany, Russia), fear mongering, piece of shit.

  • Jon

    Hey BHW, ya know…THAT was funny! I laughed out loud when you did that post! I’ll own it…thats what I get for posting late at night, after hearing about 200+ political “ads” a day. I admit, I got caught up in the moment so to speak. I need to mellow out & quit letting moronic liberals get under my skin. GOOD OBSERVATION! :) I can’t wait till this thing is over!

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    After the election, did anyone else notice that Newsweek finally printed the truth about Kerry meeting with Vietnamese Communist terrorists in Paris while still a member of the US military?

    Could that be considered a mid-November belated surprise? ;-P

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    John Kerry wasn’t too thrilled about the results of the Iraqi election.

    Well, who could really blame the guy for being a little hesitant to praise election results! ;-)

  • HW Saxton

    Elvis f**kin’ Christ! Will ya ever lay
    off the John Kerry remarks, R.J.?

    I’m no fan of the man or George either
    for that matter, but talk about beating
    a dead horse,sheesh.You’ve been making
    snarky comments(some deserved, some not)
    about the guy for well on a year now.
    Don’t YOU yourself get tired of it?

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “Elvis f**kin’ Christ! Will ya ever lay
    off the John Kerry remarks, R.J.?”

    Does anyone else remember that SNL skit where the guy wins election, but still runs TV ads humiliating his defeated opponent in stark terms? Well, I am that guy…

    Seriously, I would probably lay off the John F. Kerry stuff if he would just STFU. I mean, he apparently thinks of himself as the “leader” of the Democrats now, and he keeps speaking out and saying idiotic things. You know, that there was supposedly massive “disenfranchisement” in urban precincts of Ohio, or that the recent Iraqi election is only kinda positive.

    As soon as he stops saying stupid shit, I’ll stop writing about the stupid shit he’s saying…

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    THK just refuses to STFU!

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    Kerry in 2008?

    What do YOU think?

    (I think Hillary will get the nod…)

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    John F. Kerry – Shitty Student

    Funny. He gets a D in history, a D in political science, but a C in French!

  • Dawn

    Considering Kerry had the almost identical grades to Bush, I guess that makes them both shitty students, wouldn’t you say?

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    Pretty much.

    But the thing is, Bush’s grades were publicly available BEFORE the election. Kerry’s weren’t.

    Also, Bush never claimed to be super smart. Kerry’s supporters endlessly praised his intellectual superiority…

  • MCH

    Hey Dawn,
    Good luck trying to reason with R.J. (Bobby) Elliott. Don’t forget this is the same guy who wrote “Kerry voters are fucking communists” on BC on July 31, ’04.

  • Dawn

    I think more accurately, Kerry supporters attempted to portray Kerry as more “intellectually curious” and “articulate.”

    But it’s all semantics when you are closed-minded and unwilling to listen to the other side.

    Right?

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    Why has the media been so silent on THK since the election?

    I thought she was, you know, a brilliant, witty, strong woman with a lot of relevant things to say…

    Or was she only those things when the MSM thought she might become First Lady?

    I guess now she’s just an insane old rich broad, wildly rambling to a non-existent audience…

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    Will Kerry vote to confirm Roberts? I’m guessing no…

  • http://www.bignews.com Pesho

    Your site is realy very interesting.