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Understanding Immigration Control

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There's a great push on right now to control illegal immigration in the United States. All sorts of groups have their own special reasons for wanting the population of illegals removed and stronger barriers placed in the way of their return. Some of these reasons make sense and others do not. Many of those who are most outspoken are irrational and acting on beliefs which can only be described as racist and others are acting out of pure self-interest.

There are two undeniable truths about our current immigration 'crisis'. First, that we need immigrant labor here in some form, because our economy demands it. Second, that it would be better for everyone if that immigrant population were legal rather than illegal with all the problems which that status creates for the nation and for the illegal immigrants.

Right now the Congress is considering an immigration reform bill which attempts to address the concerns of every possible concerned group. Whether it really addresses the nation's needs is open to debate, but the basic approaches to dealing with the problem of illegal immigration are fairly clear.

There are basically three ways to prevent illegal immigration: border enforcement, internal security and immigration management.

For effective border enforcement you round up every illegal (which would require multiple phases of roundups), put them in internment camps (hundreds of them), build a giant wall the entire length of the border with guard posts, electronic security and maybe even mine fields and then return the illegals to Mexico. If they try to come back you kill them (we're serious about immigration reform, right?). This approach would be inconceivably expensive, would leave us with a labor shortage which would lead to inflation, and would make us very unpopular internationally. But it would probably work.

To deal with illegal immigration through internal security you need to track your legal population. You give every legal citizen an official ID card which can be tracked electronically, contains biometric information, and cannot be forged. You then require that the card be presented to employers and government agencies and perhaps even in stores when making a purchase. Businesses would be required to report anyone who didn't have a proper ID card and hit with serious penalties if they did not comply.

You would also make it illegal to employ or even provide goods or services to anyone without a proper government ID. This approach would also be incredibly expensive, not just for the government and taxpayers, but for every business doing the enforcement grunt work for the governmenment and having to deal with massive paperwork and inconvenience.

You'd produce results with this approach but you'd still get a labor shortage and the attendant inflation. Most seriously of all, getting rid of illegals under this sort of system would lead to massive intrusion into the private lives and acitivities of the citizens and open the door to tracking their every activity. It would probably also lead to a huge growth in the underground economy, with some businesses going underground to employ illegals and provide them with services if it were profitable enough. This would create an environment where illegals would be open to greater abuse and exploitation, not to mention a real boom environment for organized crime.

The alternative to these two approaches is immigration management. This requires acceptance of the facts that we need low wage workers in the US and that Mexicans need better paying jobs. It also means putting aside racism and nativism and embracing our nation's tradition of accepting immigrants.

Basically there are two kinds of illegals in the country right now, those who want to live here permanently and those who come here on a short-term basis to work and earn money and send it back to Mexico. The latter group makes up about 80% of the population of illegals. This solution would include a path to citizenship for as many as five million immigrants over a period of several years, perhaps a quota of a million new potential immigrants a year. It would also include a guest worker program providing visas for at least eight million guest workers which could be renewed up to 12 times (on average illegals work for eight years before returning to Mexico).

This solution is based on the principle that if a law is being violated on a massive level and is not a law which protects basic rights like life, liberty, and property, then the law is the problem, not the violations or the violators. The fault does not lie with the illegals, but with bad immigration law which doesn't address the needs of the nation or the people of the US and Mexico. So you make it easy for illegals to come here and work under the conditions which they want – which for most of them includes going home to Mexico eventually. The cost to taxpayers would be low. Turning illegals into guest workers would reduce crime and increase wages. The policy would also benefit the Mexican economy with the eventual result that as economic conditions improve there then the number of Mexicans wanting to come to the US would decline. It could even go hand in hand with efforts to help push Mexico in the direction of economic and political reforms which would make their workers want to stay there.

All three of these solutions to the illegal immigration problem would likely work, though none of them is going to satisfy everyone and they all have costs of some sort associated with them, be it in taxpayer funds or in sacrificing some political or ideological sacred cows. The key thing about all three of these immigration policies is that they are comprehensive. They need to be implemented completely in order to work.

It seems clear that border control is too expensive and too impractical and that the cost of controlling illegal immigration through internal security, paid in the loss of rights and privacy, is much too high. The option of controlling immigration through rational management of who comes here and how long they can stay seems like the most viable of these solutions. We need to face up to the fact that the presence of illegals here in the US is a sign of the failure of our laws to meet our nation's needs and the needs of Mexican workers, and that it is the laws which need to be fixed, not the workers who need to be punished.

They only want to live a better life, and our unnecessarily restrictive immigration laws are at fault for not recognizing their needs and our nation's needs and doing something to address them legally. It is a failing of our government and our society that we have provided no alternative to illegal immigration and have let this problem get as bad as it has, and it's past time to address it properly.

Once and for all, let's put the mindless rhetoric of nativism aside. These Mexican immigrants are not terrorists and they are not criminals in any but the most technical sense. They are not anti-American – they're coming here to BE Americans. They don't want to change our society, they want to change their lives and want desperately to learn English so they can advance themselves. They aren't joining Mecha or La Raza – those groups have tiny memberships made up mostly of long-term legal residents. They don't cost us jobs or lower wages – studies show wages increasing and unemployment decreasing in areas where illegals are most common. They're no more diseased than citizens and they don't carry the plague of international socialism either. They're demonstrating the wisdom to get out of a country which is afflicted with all manner of social and political problems and come here instead.

We could limit immigration most effectively and do the least with a simple guest worker program which lets Mexicans come to the US to work and eventually go back to Mexico without having to do it illegally. Keep good track of them so we can make sure they leave when they're supposed to. Leave a door open for a reasonable number of them to become citizens. If they can work legally without becoming citizens, most of them will take that route. Then we should encourage more trade and business development in Mexico and insist on government and economic reforms there, so that eventually Mexicans will find it in their interest to stay home and work there.

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About Dave Nalle

  • Arch Conservative

    Once and for all, let’s put the mindless rhetoric of nativism aside. These Mexican immigrants are not terrorists and they are not criminals in any but the most technical sense. They are not anti-American – they’re coming here to BE Americans. They don’t want to change our society, they want to change their lives and want desperately to learn English so they can advance themselves. They aren’t joining Mecha or La Raza – those groups have tiny memberships made up mostly of long-term legal residents.”

    I guess I have been dreaming every time I have seen TV news footage of illegals marching in the streets yelling in spanish and waving Mexian and other Latin American flags huh Dave?

    I must have been high on Peyote every time I thought I saw illegals on television calling anyone who disagrees with anything they say “racist.”

    I guess I made up all of the statistics that show the billions of dollars that illegals are costing our healthcare system huh Dave.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    I guess I have been dreaming every time I have seen TV news footage of illegals marching in the streets yelling in spanish and waving Mexian and other Latin American flags huh Dave?

    You haven’t been dreaming, but you have been viewing it with some erroneous assumptions. What evidence do you have that they’re illegals, and how do you know that they are representative of the general population of illegal immigrants?

    As others have pointed out to you before, if they’re marching and appearing on TV they are almost certainly not illegals. Illegals don’t like to take risks like that. And, as has also been pretty well established, the relatively small protests driven by extremist groups are a southern California phenomenon and not even representative of the legal hispanic population nationwide.

    I must have been high on Peyote every time I thought I saw illegals on television calling anyone who disagrees with anything they say “racist.”

    Arch, you don’t have to look on TV. I’m perfectly happy to call nativists racists right here on BC, because plenty of them are. When you ignore obvious truth and choose to accept irrational hate instead, there has to be a motivation. Racism seems like an obvious explanation.

    I guess I made up all of the statistics that show the billions of dollars that illegals are costing our healthcare system huh Dave.

    Well, someone made it up. I don’t think you did it yourself. Yes, we do spend a certain amount of money on healthcare and social services for a small number of illegals, but that’s more than made up for in unreimbursed taxes and SS payments.

    Dave

  • MBD

    “Yes, we do spend a certain amount of money on healthcare and social services for a small number of illegals, but that’s more than made up for in unreimbursed taxes and SS payments.”

    Heavy on adjectives, short on numbers.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    I’ve already laid out the numbers in detail in a previous article including sources to support all of them. To quote from that article:

    Studies show that only 2% of Mexican immigrants have ever used welfare or social security and only 3% have ever used food stamps. In comparison, 84% pay income tax and none of them file a return. Because so many of them pay into the tax and social security and Medicaid systems without being able to retrieve any of that money or benefits, the government actually makes a substantial profit on each illegal who comes here. This has resulted in a surplus in social security funds of more than $50 billion a year just from payments applied to fictional social security numbers. After factoring in services provided, on average during his time in the US, an illegal immigrant will contribute $80,000 more to the government than he consumes in services.

    At the time I wrote that article, the claims that immigrants were using health services and not paying hadn’t started to gain currency. They’re ridiculous, of course, because immigrants can’t claim Medicare coverage. In addition, the number of illegals using health care services is relatively small since they are predominantly fairly young and healthy. The highest estimates of the cost of healthcare for uninsured illegals (and about 40% of them do have insurance) is less than $10 billion per year nationwide, which is more than offset by their unreimbursed taxes.

    Remember, if there are 12 million illegals working at an average hourly wage $2 below the prevailing wage, that’s $62 billion a year in withholding they never get back and $18 billion in social security and medicade that they never get back. That $80 billion enormously exceeds anything they cost us in medical care.

    Dave

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    “Heavy on adjectives, short on numbers.”

    Here are the numbers from Pew Research:

    Have fun!

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Here’s another report on the levels of Latino employment, which begins:

    “The Hispanic unemployment rate reached a historic low of 5.2% in the second quarter of 2006. The gap between the seasonally-adjusted unemployment rates for Latinos and non-Latinos was just 0.6 percentage points—the smallest since 1973, when employment data on Latinos first became available. Wages for Latino workers also rose between the second quarters of 2005 and 2006, and at a faster rate than for other workers. Those developments reflect significant improvement in the labor market for Hispanic workers in 2005-06 and indicate that the jobs recovery from the recession in 2001 is nearing completion for Latinos. The improved economic performance coincided with continuing demographic growth for Hispanics, and their labor force and employment grew faster than for any other group.”

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Here’s an article I wrote about a week ago which provides yet another set of numbers, although in this case they apply only to the state of Florida.

    Crunch ‘em to your heart’s content…

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    “They’re ridiculous, of course, because immigrants can’t claim Medicare coverage.”

    Very true. Very few illegals are are over the age of 65.

    To be eligible for Medicare, the recipient must be 65 or over, or if under 65, on Social Security Disability Income (SSDI). Proving disability to Social Security is very difficult.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Sorry, Clavos. Meant to say Medicaid, not Medicare. Illegals aren’t qualified for that either, because they’re illegal.

    Dave

  • Jason

    Dave,

    I think you have made many assumptions in your article. All of your outcomes you have erred on the negative side and I dont think really given these options a chance.

    The internal security is one of the easiest and cheapest items to implement. Why is that? Because that system is already in place, its just not enforced. Employers need to actually require ID and Social Security information needs to be verified. When they are found to be illegal, they are deported. We also restrict sending money out of the country to those with a valid government ID that they must show. Businesses hiring illegals would be fined and the individuals who failed to do their job would be fined and/or prosecuted. Make it people’s responsibility to make sure. You see we do have responsibilities as citizens, not just rights.

    I understand why these people come over here and I don’t blame them, but that doesn’t make it right. I understand why a lot of people turn to crime too, that doesnt mean I’m going to change the laws to make theft or murder any easier.

    Yes we do need immigration reform to deal better with international border-crossing workers but border security is the first order of business. That needs to be handled first in a way that will allow a guest worker program to function.

    And I tell you, Dave, that we owe nothing to the Mexicans and their need to come to this country. This government’s primary responsibility is to it’s own citizens. It does not owe the citizens of any other country anything. The idea that we do may make you warm and fuzzy inside, but thats not it’s purpose.

    And perhaps you havent been in hospitals in California that have had to close down because too many people use the service without paying. Or been in the schools that have too many kids in them. Or been in an accident with an illegal that has no license, no insurance and you get screwed for it. Or had your child killed by someone who should not have been here.

    People dont have problem with the fact that we need changes to the system. Everyone agrees with that. But the current bill being proposed borders on fraud. Plenty of provisions that the Senate knows are impossible to fulfill (check out the clause about the 24 hour background checks) and only token gestures made toward actually security and enforcement.

    Yes the current bill is an amnesty. You give people exactly what they broke the law for, to be here. Perhaps you need to sit in Iraq and wait for 8 years til your visa is granted to come here, doing everything by the book. Meanwhile, people in Mexico, just cause they can walk across the border, are catered to, given special rights, immediate ‘Z-visas’ (which are instant citizenship), and a better life. Or maybe ask you parents if they had to wait, such as mine did.

    Then maybe you’ll understand that rewarding bad behaviour, just causes it cheaper and easier, isnt the right thing to do.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    The internal security is one of the easiest and cheapest items to implement. Why is that? Because that system is already in place, its just not enforced. Employers need to actually require ID and Social Security information needs to be verified. When they are found to be illegal, they are deported. We also restrict sending money out of the country to those with a valid government ID that they must show. Businesses hiring illegals would be fined and the individuals who failed to do their job would be fined and/or prosecuted. Make it people’s responsibility to make sure. You see we do have responsibilities as citizens, not just rights.

    And under the type of system you’re discussing here – which would indeed be relatively easy to implement – we’d have a lot fewer rights than we do now. To track immigrants this way you need to be able to track citizens as well, and that’s just not acceptable to many of us. We don’t want to have our every action controlled and tracked by the government. It’s not worth it for the very limited benefits it gives in dealing with immigration.

    I understand why these people come over here and I don’t blame them, but that doesn’t make it right. I understand why a lot of people turn to crime too, that doesnt mean I’m going to change the laws to make theft or murder any easier.

    The key difference between immigration and murder is that there’s a victim in a murder and immigration benefits the country and its citizens.

    And I tell you, Dave, that we owe nothing to the Mexicans and their need to come to this country. This government’s primary responsibility is to it’s own citizens. It does not owe the citizens of any other country anything. The idea that we do may make you warm and fuzzy inside, but thats not it’s purpose.

    I don’t believe that I ever said we owed them anything mspecific, except for the humane treatment and respect we owe to all people.

    And perhaps you havent been in hospitals in California that have had to close down because too many people use the service without paying.

    They do? I haven’t ever been shown a single documented case which identifies illegals as the cause for a hospital shutting down. Can you provide some evidence?

    Or been in the schools that have too many kids in them. Or been in an accident with an illegal that has no license, no insurance and you get screwed for it.

    Actually, I’ve experienced both of these and in the case of the accident the illegal paid me for the relatively minor damage in cash, which kept it off my insurance records, and the schools would be overcrowded whether the additional students are legal or illegal. The people have jobs and a place in the community and they go to school. If they weren’t needed here they wouldn’t come here.

    Or had your child killed by someone who should not have been here.

    I don’t even know what you’re talking about here. Are illegals known for murdering children? Not around here. I think you’re buying into some of the nativist propaganda.

    People dont have problem with the fact that we need changes to the system. Everyone agrees with that. But the current bill being proposed borders on fraud. Plenty of provisions that the Senate knows are impossible to fulfill (check out the clause about the 24 hour background checks) and only token gestures made toward actually security and enforcement.

    You clearly haven’t read the bill. I’ve got an article coming up which analyzes it in detail. Or check the link to the summary provided in this article. The bill is overwhelmingly dominated by extreme, even excessive, security and enforcement measures.

    Yes the current bill is an amnesty. You give people exactly what they broke the law for, to be here.

    When a law serves no beneficial purpose and people are breaking it the rational response is to replace the law, not punish the violators.

    Perhaps you need to sit in Iraq and wait for 8 years til your visa is granted to come here, doing everything by the book.

    Iraqis are fast tracked for immigration to the US and several other western countries. Plus the proposed bill would not cause them any additional delays.

    Meanwhile, people in Mexico, just cause they can walk across the border, are catered to, given special rights, immediate ‘Z-visas’ (which are instant citizenship), and a better life. Or maybe ask you parents if they had to wait, such as mine did.

    There is no ‘Z-visa’ or instant citizenship for Mexicans. Read the bill or at least a summary of it before you discuss it any further.

    Dave

  • Zedd

    Dave

    Illegals go to the emergancy room for health services. Hospitals in Texas are in trouble because of this phenominon. The federal government is having to subidise a lot of this to take the weight off. County taxes are affected tremendously by this issue as well.

    Go to your county hospital’s emergancy room and take a peek.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Zedd, I’ve been to the emergency room. The illegals I’ve seen there pay in cash. I also have a friend who’s an ER nurse and he confirms that most illegals pay and pay in cash.

    And as I said earlier, the feds can afford to cover those costs. They’re pocketing a hell of a lot of unrefunded tax revenues – more than enough to cover it.

    Dave

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Hospitals in Texas and California, as well as elsewhere, are not closing because they’re overwhelmed providing medical services to illegals.

    They are closing because the large hospital corporations (HCA, Tenet, Kaiser Permanente, among others), have spent the last 30 years building hospitals all over the country, trying to compete with each other, to the point of overbuilding on a national level.

    As a result, there is a serious glut of hospital beds in most of the country (although there are areas that are underserved – the entire state of Mississippi, e.g.). Now, to avoid cutting fees, these same companies are closing entire hospitals in some areas, and closing floors of hospitals kept open in others, in an attempt to reduce supply and keep prices stable.

    The hospital closings have nothing to do with immigrants, legal or illegal. In fact, here in Miami, the most immigrant-saturated city in the country (51% of the population is foreign born), new hospitals and hospital expansions are coming on line at a fairly rapid clip to serve the immigrant population.

    The suburb of Homestead, with a majority population of mostly illegal Mexicans (agricultural workers), just opened a brand new state-of-the-art facility less than two months ago.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    new hospitals and hospital expansions are coming on line at a fairly rapid clip to serve the immigrant population.

    And they build them to serve immigrants because immigrants pay in cash without the hassles they get from insurance companies.

    The same thing is happening here. They’re building hospitals like mad and if you’re a spanish-speaking nurse you’re a hot commodity. They’re even hiring nurses from Mexico to fill staff shortages in some cases – legitimately on green cards, though.

    Dave

  • definger

    Illegal aliens are felons as soon as they cross the border. I’m loading my weapen.

  • Jason

    Dave

    I have read the Bill. I seriously question whether or not you have by your statements. While the Z-visa, which will exist under the bill, does not give the title of citizenship, it confers all rights of one. Dont play the semantics game.

    And you dont need to track everything that every single citizen is doing. That excuse is fearmongering. When you currently apply for a job you have to already provide plenty of pieces of id and personal information, including a picture ID and your social security number. Beyond that, they dont need to track anything else you do.

    The key difference between immigration and murder is that there’s a victim in a murder and immigration benefits the country and its citizens. The key difference is legal immigration benefits the country, not illegal immigration.

    And what you actually said was: The fault does not lie with the illegals, but with bad immigration law which doesn’t address the needs of the nation or the people of the US and Mexico. Again, our laws should not be tailored to meet the needs of people of Mexico, that is not our concern.

    Actually, I’ve experienced both of these and in the case of the accident the illegal paid me for the relatively minor damage in cash, which kept it off my insurance records, and the schools would be overcrowded whether the additional students are legal or illegal. The people have jobs and a place in the community and they go to school. If they weren’t needed here they wouldn’t come here. So your one anecdotal case is now supposed to be representative of all accidents? Dont be naive. And great, the school are already overcrowded, who cares if we make it worse right? Yeah, great thought process there. And they wouldnt come here if they werent needed? Thats laughable. They come here because they can, not mainly because we need them.

    Or had your child killed by someone who should not have been here. This wasnt very hard to understand. Look at the numbers of illegals in prison for either directly or indirectly killing people. Deaths that should not have happened. There have also been several high profile cases in the news recently (ie the Geraldo and O’Reilly dispute) of illegals killing citizens. I think you are buying into the liberal propaganda and ignoring reality. And please dont suggest these people would have just died at the hands of citizens.

    When a law serves no beneficial purpose and people are breaking it the rational response is to replace the law, not punish the violators. There is nothing wrong with the law against people coming here illegally, unless you think we shouldnt restrict that at all. The problem is with the number of migrant workers we allow and how we deal with them.

    The bill is overwhelmingly dominated by extreme, even excessive, security and enforcement measures. You mean like reducing the length of the border fence they already passed. Or putting in other measures they wont enforce?

    Iraqis are fast tracked for immigration to the US and several other western countries. Plus the proposed bill would not cause them any additional delays. Thats great, latch onto 1 example as if it applies to everyone. The Iraqi was just an example. Theres still plenty of other people in other countries that have to wait while these people who broke all the rules are rewarded for it. Hopefully you teach your children better than that.

    And here is just another example of an illegal going to college here. How, as an illegal she is going to college I dont know. I wonder if she is receiving financial aid, that you say she cant

  • Jason

    And how do you defend positions such as this, as reported by the WSJ today:

    Republicans in the coalition will be expected to oppose amendments that put them in equally difficult positions. One, sponsored by Sen. John Cornyn (R-Tex.), would expand the list of crimes making illegal immigrants ineligible for legalization. Cornyn has emphasized infractions such as gang activity and “aggravated felonies.”

    Democrats say the list would virtually wipe out the legalization program by barring undocumented workers who ignored deportation orders, overstayed their visas or otherwise evaded immigration authorities.

    Why actually disqualify criminals and those that disregard our laws even further than the already are? But by your logic, the problem is just that our laws are bad. Our laws are what drive people to be in gangs. Our laws are what make people criminals. Thats just stupid and completely ignores personal responsibility and the choices these people make. Hopefully these people move into your neighborhood.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Dave,

    America as the land of fantastic riches is marketed every time some movie goes out from Hollywood depicting the rich life that Americans live – movies like Home Alone and its innumerable clones for example. Even a movie like The Crow (later ripped off by Daredevil) which deals with slums and with what Americans experience as poverty, are ads for how rich the life is that can be had there. Then there are movies like The Sandlot, or Stand by Me (whuch is what The Sandlot ripped off in tems of cinematic technique). I’m just giving examples of movies I have either as DVD’s or old video-cassettes.

    Then there is the internet marketing. Immediately above the comment box I’m typing in right now, http://www.usafis.org is pushing its green card lottery. These ads are ubiquitous. I see them in English on this site, but I also see them in Hebrew on other sites, and I’m sure some kid with a few extra pesos going into an internet café can see them when he logs on. We won’t mention the Statue of Liberty…

    Then there is the reality of dollars that feed families in Mexico and Guatemala.

    Everybody wants to get into your country, imagining the life to be easy and worry free.

    Think about that for a minute. In fact, for more than a minute. That and the reality of Mexico being POOR. Nobody likes POOR. Don’t believe me – ask Clavos. He knows far better than I ever will.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Jason writes:

    “While the Z-visa, which will exist under the bill, does not give the title of citizenship, it confers all rights of one. Dont play the semantics game.”

    ALL the rights of citizens?? Holders of Z visas will be allowed to vote and hold political office? You know that’s not true, Jason.

    “And you dont need to track everything that every single citizen is doing.”

    True. You don’t ned to. But the national ID as proposed will give the government the capability to. What government, including ours, having a capability granted to it, actually refrains from using that power? Don’t be naive, Jason.

    “The key difference is legal immigration benefits the country, not illegal immigration.”

    Actually, both do, as I’ve shown here, here, and in this BC article.

    Due to the site restrictions on links, I’ll continue this response in another comment.

  • Jerry

    Dave wrote: “those who want to live here permanently and those who come here on a short-term basis to work and earn money and send it back to Mexico. The latter group makes up about 80% of the population of illegals”.

    This statemnt is total BS, based on erroneous or outdated info. Most illegals are here to stay. Why else would Bank of America and other financial institutions be writting millions of mortgages to them?

    “the principle that if a law is being violated on a massive level and is not a law which protects basic rights like life, liberty, and property, then the law is the problem, not the violations or the violators”.

    These are Constitutional principles that apply to US Citizens. To say otherwise is an abuse of the Constitution. As it is we are already giving way too much accomodation.

    “These Mexican immigrants are not terrorists and they are not criminals in any but the most technical sense. They are not anti-American…”

    Well, so there are no Mexican criminals. What about the Salvadorans, Hondurans, Colombians, or Guatemalans who have formed a “Gualemalan Mafia” where I live. Call Santa Fe County Sheriff and ask about it.

    Maybe we should keep giving amnesty to MS-13 gangsters who will be killed if they return home. I guess they take homeland security seriously in Guatemala.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Jason,

    “Look at the numbers of illegals in prison for either directly or indirectly killing people.”

    According to a study in 2006 by the University of California – Irvine, the number of immigrants in prison for all crimes is relatively small, and considerably below the numbers for natives.

    The report is very long; here is the summary of its conclusions:

    “Because many immigrants, especially labor migrants from Mexico and Central America and refugees from Southeast Asia, are young men who have arrived with very low levels of education, conventional wisdom — both in the form of nativist stereotype as well as standard criminological theory — tends to associate them with high rates of crime and incarceration. The unauthorized entry and visa overstays of many, framed as an assault against the “rule of law” by pundits and politicians (most notoriously by a House of Representatives bill, passed in December 2005, which would make felons of all “illegal” immigrants and criminalize those who assist them), reinforces the stereotypical association of immigration and criminality in much public discourse. This association flourishes in a post-9/11 climate of fear and ignorance where “terrorism” and “losing control of our borders” are often mentioned in the same breath, if without any evidence to back them up.

    But correlation is not causation. In fact, immigrants have the lowest rates of imprisonment for criminal convictions in American society. Both the national and local-level findings presented here turn conventional wisdom on its head and present a challenge to criminological theory as well as to sociological perspectives on “straight-line assimilation.”

    For every ethnic group without exception, the census data show an increase in rates of criminal incarceration among young men from the foreign-born to the US-born generations, and over time in the United States among the foreign born — exactly the opposite of what is typically assumed both by standard theories and by public opinion on immigration and crime.”

    You say above:

    “There is nothing wrong with the law against people coming here illegally, unless you think we shouldnt restrict that at all. The problem is with the number of migrant workers we allow and how we deal with them.”

    Here I tend to agree with you. As I mentioned in my comment to Dave above, I even don’t think that we should ever grant citizenship to those already here illegally; but for our own benefit, they should be allowed to enter a guest worker program as I described upthread. The problem with the present laws is that, as Dave has stated many times, it’s not being properly enforced. The new proposal just exacerbates the problem of enforcement and is so convoluted and contradictory we’ll never be able to straighten the mess out if it’s implemented as written.

    The first thing that has to happen is control of the border – REAL control. Then, a workable and ENFORCEABLE guest worker program. As cited above, the studies and their data prove that, even as illegals these people contribute and add to our society far more than they cost; they are in short, a positive element.

    “And here is just another example of an illegal going to college here. How, as an illegal she is going to college I dont know.”

    Simple, Jason. Admission standards at most state schools nationwide require only proof of residency, not immigration status, and that proof is only to be eligible for in-state tuition; if you’re from elsewhere, you can still attend, you just pay more. Most of our universities have lots of foreigners (from other countries, not residents) attending.

    “I wonder if she is receiving financial aid, that you say she cant”

    Financial aid comes in many forms, including private scholarships and athletic and academic scholarships.

    Jason, your long comment above presents few, if any, facts and is fraught with misconceptions and prejudices about the immigrant population. I suggest you read up on the reality of what immigrants are, and have contributed to US.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Jerry writes,

    “This statemnt is total BS, based on erroneous or outdated info. Most illegals are here to stay. Why else would Bank of America and other financial institutions be writting millions of mortgages to them?”

    What banks are issuing to illegals, and which has been much in the news of late is millions of credit cards, not mortgages. Most illegals haven’t the wherewithal to buy housing, but if they ARE buying millions of houses, that’s a GOOD thing for the economy, especially in light of the recent housing decline.

    “These are Constitutional principles that apply to US Citizens.”

    Except for those constitutional principles which specifically mention citizenship, such as voting or holding office, the rights conferred by the Bill of Rights apply to all RESIDENTS, not just citizens.

    “Well, so there are no Mexican criminals. What about the Salvadorans, Hondurans, Colombians, or Guatemalans who have formed a “Gualemalan Mafia” where I live. Call Santa Fe County Sheriff and ask about it.”

    See my comment #22 (and the link) regarding immigrant crime rates.

  • bliffle

    “There are two undeniable truths about our current immigration ‘crisis’. First, that we need immigrant labor here in some form, because our economy demands it.”

    I don’t believe it.

    Saying we need something because the economy demands it is a tautology. One could as well say the economy demands it because it has it.

    Illegal immigrants come because of the dire circumstance in Mexico, not because there was an unsatisfied need in the US economy.

    We shall soon see what happens when the imagined need for large numbers of cheap unskilled laborers evaporates, as it is doing right now.

    Let’s look at the famous use of unskilled illegal immigrants in the construction business, for example. Sure, there was a heady period when builders could get good illegals cheap, but that is ending. A few years ago we saw the influx of semi-skilled and skilled workers fleeing Mexico because there were few jobs in Mexico. They knew tiling, plumbing, carpentry, etc., because they had done it in Mexico. If you seeded a few of those guys into your crew they had enough experience to either follow your instructions or learn from the guys around them. They were inquisitive, they had ambition, and they prospered. Many of them own 3 houses, 2 SUVs, send kids to college, etc.

    But the guys you see now are hopeless! They have NO experience. Usually they come from a rancho someplace in the country and they know nothing. And NO ambition. They don’t get tools, they don’t study, they don’t talk to other guys about job skills. They’re a menace on the jobsite!

    Nobody NEEDS guys like that! And it shows: the demand is dropping and the illegals are getting more desparate.

    The other thing is that more and more construction is migrating back to factories and away from the jobsite. Nowadays you don’t build a shearwall by hand, you buy a readymade from Simpson. In fact, Simpson has subordinated a number of carpentry skills with their vast array of readymade steel components.

    The naive notion that most Americans have of building, that it consists of unskilled carpenters banging nails into wood, is completely outmoded. Very little of the cost and leadtime of a construction project is involved in that. One must laugh when you see a newsreel of Jimmy Carter valiantly trying to pound a nail straight into a piece of wood someone has picturesquely posed in position for Habitat For Humanity.

    Modern construction is about brains, tools, materials, capital and experience. The contribution of dumb brute force is very small. Thus, the economic value of unskilled labor is very low.

    Stupidity is a negative! Dumb guys usually cost time, which is worth much more than their cheap wage. And usually the dumb guys, since they are averse to education and knowledge, will LIE relentlessly, which costs even more!

    And that’s why you see unprecedented numbers of unskilled illegal laborers hanging around the HD lot. Smart guys won’t use them anymore, only naive homeowners.

    So what are these guys doing for money? DRUGs, that’s what! Drugs means crimes and gangs. And they are getting more and more common. It also means more children dumped into our schools who are unmotivated, abused, and poorly parented.

    It means meth labs in suburbs, meth labs in the National Forests (manned by gun-toting illegals prepared to shoot a hiker, hunter or fisherman who wanders off the normal path.) It means drug houses rented and bought in the middle of your best middleclass neighborhoods.

    These are things which are true now, not speculations about the future.

    The immigration problem can ONLY be solved in Mexico! Mexico MUST become prosperous enough to offer a prosperous life for it’s citizens, and for those who invest there. There are two big reforms required: (1) breakup the monopolistic stranglehold of traditional families, and (2) allow foreigners to own capital in Mexico.

    Maybe it’s hopeless. The rich and powerful are deadset against the first, and almost everyone is against the second, in their ignorance.

    Edward Abbey once said that the cure to Mexico’s problems was to stop every illegal at the border and equip them with a gun and a map to Mexico City. Maybe so. Wouldn’t Regime Change in Mexico benefit the USA a hell of a lot more than mucking around in Iraq and Iran?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    “allow foreigners to own capital in Mexico.”

    With some restrictions, foreigners have been allowed to own capital and establish and run businesses in Mexico for more than 60 years.

    In the 1940s, my father (an American citizen from New York) moved himself and my mother to Mexico, where he established and successfully operated his own business for nearly two decades. He was a pioneer in this respect, and had to wade through an enormous amount of bureaucracy and red tape to launch his business, but that was a long time ago; restriction and regulation have been considerably loosened since then.

    Among foreign firms successfully investing in and operating in Mexico today, are:

    Walmart, GM (since the forties), Chrysler, Ford, Volkswagen, Toyota, Nissan, numerous hotel chains, and hundreds of smaller businesses such as Jimmy Buffet’s Margaritaville Cafe.

    I have several friends, Americans and Europeans, as well as nationals of other LatAm countries, who are operating very successful small businesses, including rental properties, service firms, and manufacturing and construction concerns, all over Mexico.

    Here are figures from the US Department of State Profile on Mexico:

    “According to Mexico’s Ministry of Economy, foreign direct investment (FDI) in Mexico for 2005 was $18.8 billion, down slightly from the year before. The U.S. was once again the largest foreign investor in Mexico, accounting for 66% of reported FDI. The most recent numbers released by Mexico show FDI for January through June 2006 at $8.7 billion.”

  • Jerry

    Bliffle –

    I concur with your post. I worked in construction alongside illegal immigrants for 16 years. The average caliber border crosser now is of an inferior caliber compared to the respectful workers of times past.

    I’m also seeing the real world realities regarding the crime and decline in many areas due to illegal immigrant drug runners, burglars, and robbers.

  • Jerry

    Clavos –

    You may be better at decifering numbers than I, but what I’m getting out of these articles (and thousands of others) seems apparent. Illegal immigrant crime Mortgages for illegals

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Jerry,

    I’ve read your citations. Allow me to suggest you access this site to learn how to link your future ones, which I’ve been told by the editors they would prefer we do.

    Now, to your citations:

    I don’t understand the point of your reference to the GAO report on illegal crime, since it doesn’t refute anything I’ve said on that point. Yes, some illegals do commit crime, but my point (and the point of the PEW Research paper I cited) is that illegals actually have a lower rate of crime than the native population. The GAO report doesn’t refute this.

    The Washington Times article notes that the number of cases involving illegals is very high and is overwhelming courts (and jails) in border areas. Again, I don’t dispute this, border areas are where the majority of illegals ARE, but again it doesn’t refute the point that the OVERALL crime rate for illegals isn’t as high as the overall crime rate for natives.

    I concede the point about home loans for illegals, I was not aware that banks had started to enter that market. However, the CNN article you cite doesn’t say that “millions” of those loans have been issued, and in fact, it points out that Bank of America has not yet decided to enter the market.

    In any case, I see that as a positive, rather than negative trend, since it stimulates home buying at a time when the housing industry could use some stimulation and market growth.

  • Nancy

    Maybe what we need to do is just ice Mexico? Problem solved.

  • Jerry

    Clavos –

    I’m not trying to refute any assertion that illegals commit more crime than citizens. I’m just trying to state that any crime committed by illegals is crime we don’t need, and never should have had to put up with.
    To compare the stats is evidence of how far we have become conditioned to their presence as being something acceptable.

    The CNN article is very outdated (Aug.8th,’05).
    I haven’t checked, but I’d bet B of A is now in the market. Also, I am not so sure it has been a positive trend considering the massive foreclosures among immigrants now occurring

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    I’m not trying to refute any assertion that illegals commit more crime than citizens. I’m just trying to state that any crime committed by illegals is crime we don’t need, and never should have had to put up with.

    To put together the facts Clavos provided with the opinion expressed by Jerry, if all we care about is crime, then we ought to deport everyone living in a depressed urban area in the US and bring in all the illegals we can, since illegals commit less crime than the average and the inner-city poor natives commit enormously more than average.

    Dave

  • Zedd

    Dave

    No! Every country has its crime and its criminals. Clav is very wrong in this regard.

    If your kid goofs up and breaks something in your home, you get upset but still love and care for him. If a kid who snuck into your home and is hanging around like its his home and then starts breaking things in your home, you boot him out and tell him never to come back.

    Also, what has gone on in urban communities has more to do with our collective history than just those specific areas at that particular time. Just like your kid has more to do with your family dynamics and genetics than their just being evil.

  • Zedd

    Dave

    There you go again.

    Do you know how much emergency rooms cost these days? If you have to have diagnostics you WILL walk out of there with a bill in the thousands.

    Dave do the research. They are not paying. They cant. Its too expensive.

    Also, nurses don’t handle the financial aspects of hospitalization especially in large county hospitals. She was fibbing.

    Another nugget for you. Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas , Texas is a fairly famous institution and for a variety of reasons:
    Parkland is also home to the second busiest maternity ward in the country with almost 16,000 new babies arriving each year.(That’s almost 44 per day—every day)
    A recent patient survey indicated that 70 percent of the women who gave birth at Parkland in the first three months of 2006 were illegal immigrants.That’s 11,200 anchor babies born every year just in Dallas . According to the article, the hospital spent $70.7 million delivering 15,938 babies in 2004 but managed to end up with almost $8 million dollars in surplus funding. Medicaid kicked in $34.5 million, Dallas County taxpayers (ME) kicked in $31.3 million and the feds tossed in another $9.5 million.
    The average patient in Parkland ‘s maternity wards is 25 years old, married and giving birth to her second child. She is also an illegal immigrant. By law, pregnant women cannot be denied medical care based on their immigration status or ability to pay.

    DALLAS Dallas County officials say medical care provided to illegal immigrants at Parkland Memorial Hospital cost more than 22 (M) million dollars million this fiscal year.

    The estimate released yesterday doesn’t include emergency treatment. It marks the first time Parkland has quantified the amount Dallas County taxpayers have spent on the care of illegal immigrants.

    Parkland has sent foreign governments bills for indigent citizens who received care at the hospital. A federal program distributes 250 (M) million dollars a year among providers of emergency care for illegal immigrants. But the program doesn’t include reimbursement for outpatient or clinic care provided by hospitals.

    Hospital vice president Jim Perry says Parkland’s emergency room treats about 50 illegal immigrants a day.

    Parkland’s president, Doctor Ron Anderson, says Parkland won’t turn away sick or injured people who live in Dallas County, regardless of their legal status. – KLTV Tyler TX

  • Jerry

    Dave –

    Are your facts better than mine? If illegals are committing less crime than citizens, please explain why the courts on border states are overloaded with illegals committing felonies as described in the link (thanks for fixing it. Thanks Clavos for the HTML Tutorial)”Illegal immigrant crime” in #27.

  • Zedd

    Dave

    At parkland’s obstetrics department the cost are $70,715,271 annually. What is retrieved through self pay is $141,408. 70% of the clients are illegal aliens. 12% are legal Hispanics, 12% Black, 3% White and 2% other.

  • Zedd

    Clavos

    This is response to your article about Florida.

    What do low-skilled immigrants cost America? Everything has its costs, of course. According to a new analysis by Robert Rector of the conservative Heritage Foundation, the average low-skilled immigrant household received $30,160 in direct benefits, means-tested benefits, education, and other services from all levels of government in 2004.

    By contrast, low-skill immigrant households paid only $10,573 in taxes that year, meaning the average low-skill household had a fiscal deficit of $19,588. And what about retirement costs? Rector estimates that if all the current adult illegal immigrants in the United States were granted amnesty, the net retirement costs to government (benefits minus taxes) could be over $2.5 trillion.

    A 2003 analysis by the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas concluded that while high-skilled immigration had “good economic effects”–it added to economic growth and helped government finances–low-skilled immigration was more of a mixed picture. “The economic benefits are there as well but have to be balanced against the fiscal impact, which is likely negative,” explained economist Pia Orrenius.

    But doesn’t America need low-skilled immigrants to do the jobs Americans won’t? Well, one could certainly argue that at higher wages, American would do those jobs. A 2004 study by Harvard economist George Borjas concluded that from 1980 to 2000, immigration reduced the average annual earnings of native-born men by $1,700, or nearly 4 percent. For the poorest tenth of the workforce, the reduction was 7.4 percent.

    And those higher wages wouldn’t necessarily send prices out of control. The $10 billion immigrants add to the economy mostly through lower prices is just a drop in the bucket for a $13 trillion economy. And a 1996 study by a pair of Iowa State economists found that the removal of illegal workers from the seasonal agricultural workforce would increase supermarket produce prices by about 6 percent in the short run and 3 percent in the intermediate term.

    During the winter-spring seasons, prices would rise more than 3 percent in the short term and less than 2 percent in the intermediate term. Imports would increase about 1 percent. Indeed, a reduction in the supply of low-wage workers would force many industries to turn to automation to maintain or increase productivity.

    – US News and World Report, May 21 2007

  • Zedd

    Clav/Dave,

    You see pretending as if the problem isn’t as bad as it is doesn’t fix it.

    We have to get mad enough to convince our politicians to come up with a reasonable solution. One that wont end up costing us jobs, in taxes, in crime and deterioration of quality of life. One that will allow people to go home whenever they want to (these people love their homes back) and still earn an HONEST wage and work towards residency (like everyone else).

  • Billybob

    Just what we need, more beaners in our country. We got these refrieds all over our trailer park. They dont speak englist. They speak taco, burrito and have millions of little beaners. The women are fat and lazy. Fuck this shit. Fuck the mexicans.

  • Jerry

    Zedd –

    You can add Santa Fe County, New Mexico to the list. Although our population is a fraction of your county, we are soon to get hit with a property tax increase to generate 9.2 million dollars for the hospital’s indigent fund.

    What’s the common denominator?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Zedd writes:

    “This is response to your article about Florida.”

    Actually, it’s not an adequate response, Zedd, because it only addresses a relatively small portion of the Latino immigrant population, the low-skilled workers, most of whom are working in agriculture and trucking/materials movement.

    The article I cited regarding immigrants’ contributions to the Florida economy unequivocally showed that the bottom line is positive. That is, immigrants contribute more than they receive in the state.

    This report by Pew Research breaks down, as of mid-decade, what kind of work ALL Latinos (legal and illegal) nationwide are doing, and how many are engaged in each category, nationwide.

    As you will note, the table shows, among others that, out of a total of 12,440,000 foreign born Latinos (elsewhere they indicate that the foreign born are split approximately 50/50 between legal and illegal)worked in:

    (figures rounded)

    Management 435,000

    Education 236,000

    Arts/media 111,000

    Healthcare professional 136,00

    Healthcare support 180,000

    Construction Trades 1,969,000

    Production (Mfg.) 1,704,000

    Sales 871,000

    Office and administrative support 959,000

    Installation/Maint./Repair 419,000

    All of the above are skilled jobs. In low and semi-skilled fields we have:

    BLDG/Grounds Maintenance/Cleaning 1,559,000

    Transportation (Trucking) 1,118,000

    Farming 490,000

    personal care/services (maids/nannies, etc.)400,000

    Out of 12,400,000 about 3,600,000 are low skilled workers, a ratio of about 29%, less than a third.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Jerry asks,

    “If illegals are committing less crime than citizens, please explain why the courts on border states are overloaded with illegals committing felonies as described in the link”

    Jerry, I answered that in #28. The reason is simple: you have more illegals, especially as a ratio of the native population. Of course your courts are going to be overloaded with those kinds of cases.

    I suspect that there’s a certain bias on the part of law enforcement in the border areas as well; there certainly was in South Texas when I lived there in the nineties.

    Blacks in Deep South states get arrested more than whites, too. They even have an expression to explain why they get more traffic tickets: DWB, driving while black.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Zedd, an emergency room visit for a kid with the sniffles does NOT cost $70,000. We need to differentiate between the overwhelming majority of ER visits which cost at most a few hundred dollars and the very small proportion which lead to longer hospital stays, operations and expenses in the tens of thousands.

    Dave

  • Zedd

    Clavos

    Are you alright?

    In order for your post to be relevant, make that breakdown noting illegal immigrants from Latin America only. If those stats represents a 50/50 break down, what proportion of each skill set is occupied by legals vs illegals. THAT would be informative.

    Also, construction trades, maintenance, and production are not skilled labor that NEEDS to be imported. There are people all over the country who are loosing those types of jobs and are having to work two jobs to earn what they used to in manufacturing.

    75.4 percent of immigrants from Mexico, El Salvador and Guatemala lack a high school diploma — with only 4.6 percent hold a college degree or more.

    Clav, come BACK to Texas, you will be SHOCKED and your apologist posts will end.

    The world that you envision does not exist. I would have made those same arguments and did actually, 6yrs ago. NOW?………

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Just to follow up on that last, according the Blue Cross/Blue Shield, the average cost of an ER visit is actually about $1089, factoring in a large number of visits substantially lower than that amount and a small number that end up costing substantially more than that.

    Further to this, an article in the NEJM looked into costs in more detail, and found that 32% of ER visits were non-urgent, with an average real cost to the hospital of $62. About 26% were semi-urgent with an average cost to the hospital of $159. Actual costs are about 1/2 of what the hospital bills patients.

    Since illegals use ERs in place of family physicians for routine prescriptions and treatment, they are disproportionately represented in the visits which are under $1000.

    Dave

  • Zedd

    Dave

    The illegals use the ER more than other populations.

    The typical range for ER visits is $300 – $1845. They are not paying cash.

  • Jerry

    Clavos –

    I’m sorry to tell you, but Santa Fe is a “sanctuary city” with the most pro-illegal immigrant mayor in the country next to Mr. Villaraigosa.

    The City of Santa Fe, in cooperation with the AARP and a local community college sponsored an ongoing event in March and April wherein illegals could get help with their taxes.

    The advertisement (in Spanish) in the New Mexican newspaper went as follows: Heading-“Necesita hacer sus impuestos, legales o ilegales”. Then continued, “Si usted trabaja con un numero de Seguro Social falso, esta bien, usted puede obtener su reembolso. Por cada nino usted puede recibir hasta $1000 dolares. Aplique por su numero ITIN y prepare sus taxes del 2006 y de 3 anos atras, si usted a trabajado. Para aplicar por su ITIN necesita 2 identificaciones ya sea pasaporte, acta de nacimiento, o identificacion con foto matricula consular…”

    I think this is a blantant slap in the face by the public servants entrusted with looking out for American citizens. The Mayor is advocating potential ID theft in order to succor benefits for illegals. What do you think?

    There’s more.The local police dept. is having great difficulty recruiting officers for their understaffed force. One reason is because word is out that you don’t mess with illegals here; they are a protected class.

    The latest proposal put forth to fill the positions is to hire illegal immigrants, and put them on a fast track to citizenship. The Santa Fe Chief of Police is in favor of this idea, along with the local Sheriff who regularly attends illegal immigration rally’s as a supporter.

    Can you sympathize a little more with my frustration now, or am I one who’s just such a damn bigoted nativist?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    “The world that you envision does not exist

    Sorry, Zedd, you’re wrong.

    Where I live now is much more of an immigrant city than ANY place (including the border towns) in Texas.

    51% of the people living in this town are foreign born. Two thirds, 65%, are Latinos. No city in Texas, in fact, no city in the country, not even Los Angeles (47%) is as heavily Latino as Miami.

    Miami has its problems, but by and large, the invasion has been BENEFICIAL for the city AND the state (as the article I cited proved).

    This is the history of immigration in America: when a group (race, nationality) begins to arrive, paranoia and xenophobia spread like wildfire among those already here; terrible allegations are made about the newcomers: they’re lazy, dirty, diseased, uneducated, don’t (and won’t) speak English, won’t assimilate, etc., etc.

    Then, when the immigrants begin to assimilate, as they ALL DID and do and will, gradually the “they” become the “we,” and then the cycle starts all over again with the next group.

    This time is, and will be, no different.

    The world I SEE (not “envision”) DOES exist, right here, and you haven’t even begun to see what’s coming yet.

  • Zedd

    Clav

    We are talking about illegal immigrants. Not just immigrants.

    Heck I’m an immigrant. I guess I am counted in your stats among the managers. I am also a full fledged American and nothing else.

    The issue is with illegal immigration. Florida is not leading the nation. California is then Texas.

    Florida has the most educated Hispanic population in the country. Using Florida stats is useless to our discussion. Especially since the immigrants in Florida are overwhelmingly LEGAL. Can we stop now with the Florida stuff?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    No shit, Zedd. REALLY? Illegals, huh? Zedd, I asked you once before not to patronize me. Kindly knock it off.

    “Especially since the immigrants in Florida are overwhelmingly LEGAL. Can we stop now with the Florida stuff?”

    No, Zedd, not until you know what you’re talking about. The Florida Latino population is exactly the same ratio of legal to illegal as the rest of the states.

    The ratio of illegal immigrants to total population is actually higher in California, New York, AND Florida than it is in Texas, Zedd.

    “I am also a full fledged American and nothing else.”

    Oh really? So I guess you were just bullshitting here:

    “#24 — June 4, 2007 @ 19:44PM — Zedd
    …I suppose my ethic background plays somewhat of a role in shaping my processes. I’m mostly Zulu.”

    Meh.

  • Jason

    Jason, your long comment above presents few, if any, facts and is fraught with misconceptions and prejudices about the immigrant population. I suggest you read up on the reality of what immigrants are, and have contributed to US.

    I can sit here and match you quote for quote on different peoples opinions for each side, throw statistics back and forth, mine will support my side and yours will support yours and get us nowhere. The truth is in the reality, not the way the stats are manipulated. I currently live in south florida. Im quite familiar with the illegal population, and the positions you have taken just dont match reality. Maybe they do in Kansas, but not in states like Florida.

    The first thing that has to happen is control of the border – REAL control. Then, a workable and ENFORCEABLE guest worker program. As cited above, the studies and their data prove that, even as illegals these people contribute and add to our society far more than they cost; they are in short, a positive element.

    This I agree with for the most part, which doesnt match your previous position. However at the end, about the positive element, is where I disagree. Legal immigrants add something positive to the society. Forget the fact that they our breaking our laws (dont really forget, it plays a part), rightly or wrongly they are still the current laws, illegals do not provide more than they cost, period. If that were true, we should have such a surplus of funds if this all this money is coming in from all the illegals that we have. Instead, we have services overrun and closing down. Since you seem unwilling (or unbelieving of those that disagree) to do the research, Ill do it for you (The page made me reduce the number of urls):

    here, and here

    These are just a fraction of the items you can find with a simple search on just hospital closings alone.

    Simple, Jason. Admission standards at most state schools nationwide require only proof of residency, not immigration status, and that proof is only to be eligible for in-state tuition; if you’re from elsewhere, you can still attend, you just pay more. Most of our universities have lots of foreigners (from other countries, not residents) attending.Yes we do have people from other countries, we call them exchange students, which she was clearly not one of. This is just another example of current laws not being enforced. Went I went to college my SSN was all over the place. If I was not legal, they would/should have known. And she most likely is getting aid that she be used towards a citizen, but its pointless to speculate on her financial source.

    I also noticed your dropped your ignorance of the Z visa. In case you were still in the dark on it, here are some references to it:

    here

    Sure are alot of people talking about something you said didnt exist and then used that point to question whether or not I have even read the bill. Nice tactic, btw. Tried and true. You were correct in your previous comment in that someone clearly hasnt read the bill.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    The typical range for ER visits is $300 – $1845. They are not paying cash.

    I’ve SEEN them pay cash. But put that aside for the moment. If they don’t pay cash and can’t be counted on to pay when billed, why not require a deposit up front for treatment? Seems like a reasonable solution.

    Dave

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Jerry #46,

    A number of points:

    I don’t agree with the “sanctuary city” concept, either; just as I don’t advocate citizenship EVER for those illegals already here, just the opportunity to become TEMPORARY guest workers.

    I don’t think I’ve directly called you a nativist at any point in this discussion. On the contrary, I’ve tried to be polite in my direct replies to you, because you’ve been very civil to me. If I did insult you, I apologize.

    Now to the notice in Spanish you quoted. You say:

    “I think this is a blantant slap in the face by the public servants entrusted with looking out for American citizens. The Mayor is advocating potential ID theft in order to succor benefits for illegals. What do you think?”

    Actually, he’s not, Jerry, though he does say to them that if they have a phony SS number, that’s OK, which IS wrong. That, however, is to the benefit of the country, because it means they’ll pay into SS funds they’ll not be able to collect, because to collect, you must prove your legal status (not just present your SS card), so they’ll pay in but not collect with a phony card.

    As far as the suggestion to apply for an ITIN goes, there he’s not suggesting anything illegal. On the contrary, he’s encouraging them to register to pay taxes. Again, a good thing for the country. You don’t need to be a citizen (or even have legal status) to pay taxes, and the IRS is prohibited by law from sharing information with ICE.

    You DO have a lot of illegals in Santa Fe, obviously, and your mayor is certainly encouraging them, but I stand by my original contention that a good, enforceable guest worker program is the best way to handle the problem on a national level.

    I DO think y’all ought to vote that SOB out of office first chance you get, though.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Jason,

    You’re comment #50 responds to comments made by me, but also by Dave. I will respond to those that stem from my comments only. You say:

    “I currently live in south florida. Im quite familiar with the illegal population, and the positions you have taken just dont match reality. Maybe they do in Kansas, but not in states like Florida.”

    Actually, so do I, Jason; since the late 50s, in fact.

    The position I take as to the positive effects (particularly financial) of the immigrants (legal and illegal) in Florida is based in part on this Statistical Study just released by FIU here in Miami, which clearly proves (not opines) that immigrants are a very positive influence here; and in part to more than forty years of my own direct observation (and participation in, as a worker) of the nonstop growth of the economy here, which is due almost 100% to the Latino immigration.

    That’s not to say there aren’t problems, and we need to continue working on them, but immigration has been good for this area. I’m old enough to remember when South Florida was a nothing backwater literally dying economically.

    That situation began to reverse with the arrival of the first wave of Cubans (in 1960), and we’ve been moving upward ever since with each successive wave, not only of Cubans, but Latinos from every country in LatAm, who now far outnumber the Cubans.

    “This I agree with for the most part, which doesnt match your previous position.”

    The quote you reference IS mine, but your response is to Dave. My position on illegals has ALWAYS been “no citizenship – EVER; a good, realistic, and enforceable guest worker program.”

    Regarding your links in re hospital closings:

    The “Hopkins Undergrad Research Journal” is at the very least, questionable. They provide NO information regarding their qualifications, sources, or methodology, and even a cursory look at their “reports” indicates an obvious overall right wing bias. The New Mexico newspaper article is referring to the overwhelming of (mostly tiny – one has only 13 beds!) border hospitals. it really doesn’t have much relevance to other parts of the country, and certainly not to South Florida.

    BTW, did you know that a new, state-of-the-art, multi million dollar hospital just opened in Homestead, where the majority of the population is illegal Mexican farmworkers?

    “This is just another example of current laws not being enforced. Went I went to college my SSN was all over the place.”

    As you and others have pointed out, it’s child’s play to obtain an SSN, but you still have to pay tuition, more if you’re from out of state. What’s your point?

    That’s it for me, I never mentioned the Z visa, which is the subject of the rest of your comment.

  • Zedd

    Clavos

    There is no such country as Zulu, there used to be a region called Zululand but I have never lived there. I don’t think that I’ve ever been there either. There is also not a country called FEMALE, or BLACK or GORGEOUS ;o). Those are all elements which describe me but neither are countries. You are sort of making it hard not to “patronize you”.

    I am an American. I don’t have citizenship anywhere else Clav.

    As for your morphing into the ratio thing, what does that have to do with the stats that you quoted and the insinuation that Florida has the highest number of illegals in the nation? It doesn’t.

    BTW Please provide me with the source that verifies your claims of the ratios of illegals in state populations. The numbers that I know if say that Florida is actually 4th in the nation. Its Cali, TX, AZ (or NM get those two confused) then Florida.

    Regardless, those numbers do not change the affects of illegals on our economy and quality of life. Its pointless.

    Clav again, lets focus on solution instead of…. I don’t know what you are doing actually. The truth is most sane Americans love the people who have come in to the US and happen to be illegal. Most respect them and acknowledge that were they in the same situation, they would do the same thing. However most people see the negative affects of their pouring into this country in such great numbers in such a short period and don’t see and end anytime soon. A solution that is fair and a win for everyone must be drafted and enacted. Unless the problems are acknowledged and well understood a good and equitable solution will not occur and racist notions will proliferate, you don’t want that Clav. Opportunities will close up for generations to come. Believe me on that one and no will acknowledge that it is happening which will make it impossible to fix. Deal with it now while you can and create a future for your people.

  • moonraven

    Actually, the wall is the best of all the bad ideas so far. Why?

    Because a wall that length will provide thousands of jobs for undocumented workers–even the Baja California wall was a windfall, and it was nowhere near that long.

    Of course eventually the company that hired the undocumented workers to build the wall was fined a few millions, but who really cares about that….

  • Jerry

    Clavos –

    I have always perceived you to be a civil, and reasonable person while reading your posts and articles. As you have noticed, I get emotional about this issue, and I apologize for reacting with a bit of spite at times.

    As for my post #46, I was venting more than anything, but also wanting to highlight or compare the regional differences, affects and attitudes.

    Your assessment of S. Florida is factual and correct. It is entirely believable because of the background of the Cubans. They arrived with incredible gratitude and ambition that could finally be expressed. They set the template for all others who were seeking the same goals, and they followed suit, having observed the success of the Cubans. S. Florida is a success story.

    Although we see the same dynamics working to some degree wherever there is immigration, it is not always as successful in some places. The whole issue to me is not about race or skin color so much as it is about mind-set and world view.

    Consider the differences between the average Montanan and massachusetsan (does anyone no what their called.) I have worked enough around people from various parts of Lat Am to pick up on some of the regional variations in attitude and behavior. I will admit that some of this is just difference between good and bad as we have in all communities, but there are some definite characteristics that are different.

    The immigrants that worry me are not the ones who want to retain their culuture, but those that show no desire to put their loyalties aside in favor of the new ones they should cultivate.
    The whole coopting bit by the American left really concerns me.

    Next to San Francisco, Santa Fe is the most leftist city in the country and illegals here are the latest tool in their bag.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Jerry,

    You make an interesting point about the Cubans “setting the template” for all the other immigrants who have followed them, and I confess it’s a factor I had not considered until now.

    I also agree with you regarding the regional differences between the various LatAm countries and their citizens. In fact, one of my pet peeves is people who lump everyone from Latin America together into one homogeneous group usually referred to as Hispanic. Even the government does it, and it’s akin to lumping together all Americans, Britons, Canadians, Australians, and New Zealanders and calling them English.

    “The immigrants that worry me are not the ones who want to retain their culuture, but those that show no desire to put their loyalties aside in favor of the new ones they should cultivate.
    The whole coopting bit by the American left really concerns me.”

    Again, I agree with you.

    I am disturbed by the recent massive demonstrations by the Mexican immigrants precisely because my own experience and background makes me believe there was an enormous amount of behind-the-scenes manipulation of the people going on there. And not necessarily from the Left, either.

    I don’t discount the possibility of a Machiavellian scheme from the Right to create more ill will toward Mexican immigrants by inciting them to demonstrate as they did.

    Either way, it of course doesn’t absolve the Mexicans from responsibility for their actions, nor does it excuse bad behavior on their part.

  • Jerry

    The Right and Left are both taking advantage of the immigration issue, and immigrants to bolster their agenda’s, and it is the average American who is once again getting hurt.

    God help us to somehow elect leaders, if they exist, who will not bow down at the altars of special interests (the usual suspects of both extremes), and self interest.

  • Zedd

    MR is back. Clav must be giddy!

    Welcome back MR. Atleast you will have one topic that you agree with The Clavster on.

  • Billybob

    Hey Blogcritics, give me back my cocks and pitbulls and stay out of my trailer park. You bunch of frecking beaners.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    BB, I’m pretty sure that it’s your state government which confiscated your cocks, not BC.

    Dave

  • Jason

    Clavos

    Since you have been here so long, Im sure you have also recognized the decline of south florida over the past 20 years since the illegal population has been exploding. And maybe you dont drive around much done there but there are more than plenty of large sections where the majority of people do not speak english. I still have to drive down by Miami International Airport several times a month I have stopped in areas and been confronted with every sign, billboard, flyer, etc in spanish, with nothing in english. And the employees of the store not being able to speak english. I dont know what percentage of them are legal vs illegal but they are not assimiliating either way.

    Since Im not sure which link is to your FIU study, I cannot comment on it other than ask if you looked at who backed and provided the study within FIU, it makes a difference. And frankly Id trust Johns Hopkins assessment of their study far more than yours assessment.

    However, I do agree with you as to no amnesty. Why attrition through enforcement is such a terrible idea, I dont know. I do notice that is one method that people like McCain try to avoid by always shouting ‘deportation’. Probably because it makes too much sense and they perceive that they do not more votes by taking that direction.

    @Dave
    No, the Z visa does not allow them to vote or hold public office at the moment, but frankly thats not a major concern and/or need for the average citizen, especially in their situation. Like I said, for all intensive purposes, they are citizens. They are here, living under our system, protected by our laws, able to take advantage of our social programs, schools, etc, while the guy who follows the rules sits in his country waiting.

    You dont think you are providing support to these people with this stance. You dont think this tells all the illegals to ignore their deportation orders, to instead hide out and wait for their coming amnesty? You do think it sends signal to people in Mexico to get here as quick as possible so then can be granted amnesty as well? You dont think these people will lie about being here for atleast the required amount of time needed to qualify? These people come here illegally, obtain fake passports and/or social security numbers, fake drivers licenses, etc. You dont think they are going to get false documents and lie about having lived here long enough to qualify?

  • MBD

    Once the current legislation is passed and long before the border is ever closed, we will see a migration into the United States that will make migrations of the past several decades look like amateur night.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Actually, Jason, I couldn’t disagree with you more. Far from decline, I see growth and a boomtown beyond anyone’s wildest imagination before the influx of immigration. Construction is everywhere (a few weeks ago, I counted 28 construction cranes just in downtown!), jobs are going begging in construction and healthcare (two of the biggest industries down here), and we have the lowest unemployment rate of any major city in the nation.

    Oh, and I DO drive…all over not only South Florida, but the entire state, for work. Though the boom is strongest here, the whole state is thriving; especially Tampa Bay, Orlando, and Jacksonville.

    Yes, there are whole areas where all you see are signs in Spanish, and where everyone speaks Spanish, just as there were areas in New York that only spoke Italian/German/Polish/Yiddish, etc. back at the turn of the twentieth century, when those people were the large immigrant groups. The first generation never assimilates; it’s their kids and grandkids who grow up here that assimilate most. Go to the malls and listen to the teenagers; they’re mostly speaking in English. I know Latino families in which the parents address the (US born) children in Spanish, and the kids reply in English.

    Regarding the studies, two points:

    “Since Im not sure which link is to your FIU study, I cannot comment on it other than ask if you looked at who backed and provided the study within FIU, it makes a difference. And frankly Id trust Johns Hopkins assessment of their study far more than yours assessment.” (emphasis added)

    Apples to oranges, Jason. The JHU study discusses a perceived immigrant-driven hospital crisis in California (it doesn’t even mention Florida), while the FIU study specifically assesses the impact of immigration on Florida, with a particular focus on South Florida.

    “Why attrition through enforcement is such a terrible idea, I don’t know.”

    Because, as I’ve repeatedly tried to explain, these people are more of an asset to US than a liability. This is the chief reason I advocate a guest worker program.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Once the current legislation is passed and long before the border is ever closed, we will see a migration into the United States that will make migrations of the past several decades look like amateur night.

    Why? The borders have been virtually open for decades. Any mexican who wanted to come here could do so with minimal risk and expense and has probably already been here for years. Most of them don’t want citizenship, which is what this bill mostly offers. They just want jobs, which this bill is going to make less accessible. Unless someone lies to them about what the bill does they should have no motivation to flood the border.

    Dave

  • bliffle

    IMO, everyone here is laboring under the delusion that there is something our congress can do that will limit immigration from Mexico. Short of machine-gunning everyone crossing illegally, ala the Berlin Wall 40 years ago, that is. At least that option has the upside of providing employment for all those East German Border Guards who lost their jobs when the Wall was torn down (there’s a cloud in every silver lining).

    What endearment could congress possibly offer to illegals that wouldn’t just sweeten an already sweet deal? None that I can think of, and none that anyone here has demonstrated.

    Indeed, the Reagan Amnesty deal is often cited as a horrible example of such an attempt.

    The problem can only be solved in Mexico.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    I hope I haven’t given the impression I share that delusion, bliffle.

    The indefensibility of the border is one of the many reasons why a system like a guest worker program which will encourage people to enter legally and in a controlled manner willingly is the only viable option.

    Dave

  • bliffle

    We had a big Guest Worker “Bracero” program about 50 years ago and just about everyone ended up disliking it, except Wells Fargo bank which withheld a big part of everyones pay as a ‘retirement fund’, and then kept the money! Never paid it back.

  • moonraven

    The money just “disappeared” somewhere between the US and Mexico.

    Those braceros raised hell for years in order to receive a plate of lentils instead of their money (each one is supposed to receive the pittance of 3400 dollars from the Mexicab government–but only a few a year as they are betting everybody dies before they are paid–widows and “children” are demanding to receive the money for the men who have died or are in the process of doing so.)

  • Billybob

    My cock came up to the old ladie today. She was pleased to see my old cock and kissed it. Now my cock is very happy and walks a straight line. Shot the frecking pits today. Old Joe Bob says it stinks around hear. Told him it was beaners farting or the dead dogs laying around. Go figure.

  • Billybob

    Im in love with miss Moonraven. Sure likes the way she talks. Miss Moonraven Billy Joe asked me if you have naked pictures of yourself. If you do he wants to put them up on our trailer walls. He thinks you is one hot babe and so do me. Before we get married Miss Moonraven do you have a lot of money and do you like crawdads and catfish. Hope you know how to fix dem fer dinner. All my love. Billybob

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Marthe, it looks like all your chickens are coming home to roost now that you’ve returned. At least I tell people that I’m handsome enough to be on radio – before they tell me.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Didn’t the Bracero program involve the Mexican government as an intermdiary between workers and employers? That would seem to me to be a fatal mistake given the corruption of that government.

    If we have a new guest worker program it would need to be mostly market based, with only things like visas handled by government.

    Dave

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    “Didn’t the Bracero program involve the Mexican government as an intermdiary between workers and employers? That would seem to me to be a fatal mistake given the corruption of that government.

    If we have a new guest worker program it would need to be mostly market based, with only things like visas handled by government.”

    Dave, there is no such an animal as “market based.” Didn’t grandma ever teach you how to steal sheep? And if not grandma, at least the Syrians or the Lebanese? And if not them, at least some Bedouin in Jordan?

  • bliffle

    I’m not as sanguine about market based systems as I used to be. Cf. our market based congress.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Ruvy, sheep theft IS a market-based system. It just doesn’t operate with the rules or the medium of exchange we’re used to in the west.

    Think in terms of the broader sense of ‘market’ – any form of exchange of goods and services, labor is just another form of commodity.

    Dave

  • STM

    Sheep theft is very common in New Zealand, as there are a lot of single blokes looking for wives.

    However, it’s not always how it looks. Many Kiwi farmers who lose sheep and think they’ve been the victims of sheep-duffers are actually mistaken.

    Often these sheep are not stolen but have instead willingly entered into arranged marriages through independent brokers.

  • moonraven

    Nalle can now explain to us how the current hunt and shoot system at the border fits his ideal of a market-based model.

  • Dr Dreadful

    STM #77: LOL.

    “Mmeeeeeeehh…”

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    MR, the number of shootings on the border is tiny compared to the past. It certainly couldn’t be called a system. And it’s a private-property issue, though I suppose that if you want to use the illegal-immigration as market phenomenon model, the occasional casualty on someone’s ranch could be considered defective product.

    Dave

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    …or shrinkage?

  • moonraven

    Or murder.

    What PAST is Nalle talking about?

    There has been plenty of hunt and shoot activity this year, which I believe is 2007.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Do you have evidence of that, MR? From what I’ve heard from folks I know who have family land on the border the presence of the minutemen and generally higher levels of activity on the border have made them reluctant to take any vigelante action. And even so, things haven’t been like they were in the 70s for ages. Open season on border bunnies has been closed for years.

    Dave

  • moonraven

    Evidence, Dave:

    Three bodies coming back to be buried in the town next to my village–since the end of January.

    That´s just from one town!

    Border bunnies, indeed. What a creep you are, Nalle.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    MR, if the bodies came back to Mexico then they likely weren’t shot by US ranchers, but by Coyotes for being difficult. If US ranchers shoot them they aren’t seen again above the ground.

    Dave

  • Billybob

    I know what them beaners are doing with them sheep and its discusting. Who the hell picks up all them rubbers, beer cans and tons of trash they leave hehind. I bet if you tried to walk around the dessert you would step in beaner crap every foot or so. Bet the smell of piss would be worst then a frecking cat farm. My friend Joebob told me he was walking around out their one night and slipped on a pile of beaner crap and fell into a hole filled with beaner piss and used rubbers. Man thats sick.

  • moonraven

    Right, Nalle–keep lying. The ranchers also double as deputy sheriffs–and the videos showed that they were the shooters.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    MR, I’m not lying, I’m just going by what I’ve been told. If you’ve got current videos, give us the link.

    What happens on the King Ranch stays on the King Ranch…

    dave

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    …and, of course, nobody ever doctored a video to make a point.

    Can you say “michael moore,” mr?

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    Bliffle, I just noticed your earlier comment about how there was no longer any demand for immigrant labor and the quality of that labor has declined.

    That sure doesn’t reflect the situation around here at all. We’ve got relatively skilled immigrants here who have been here for years, and work mostly on new home construction. They get paid a fair market wage for the most part. They aren’t getting hired because they’re being exploited, they’re getting hired because they’re available and no one else is.

    And homes are still built with lots of hand work, including custom carpentry, hammering nails, hand-built joists and just about every other aspect being done by people, not machines and not prefabrication.

    Plus there’s a huge market for home maintenance, repair and remodeling. So much demand, in fact, that it’s hard to find a contractor who has time and men available to do smaller jobs, as I know from personal experience.

    Dave

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Practically everybody building Miami these days is Latino, and they can’t get enough of ‘em; jobs in construction are going begging at twenty dollars an hour.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/clavos Clavos

    Most of the workers rebuilding new Orleans are Latinos, too.

  • moonraven

    Yep, they are rebuilding New Orleans and expanding Miami´s building boom.

    Which brings us back to my original point that the best option of the bad options on the table is: building the wall, as that will provide well-paid work for thousands of undocumented workers.

    Clavos, if you believe that the border patrol doctors their videos, complain to your congressperson–you are footing the bill for all that equipment, after all.

  • http://www.elitebloggers.com Dave Nalle

    There’s border patrol video of illegals being shot? I’d love to see it. That ought to be all over YouTube, but all I can find is Chavistas shooting students. As far as I know there’s one highly-publicized incident and the shooting was non-fatal. That’s not exactly a holocaust.

    Again, give us your source here, MR.

    Dave

  • moonraven

    The videos have not been released as the matter is still under investigation.

    Since when did Nalle care about sources?

    No chavistas have shot students. But 7 chavistas have been shot in the past 10 days. (Source the newspaper HERE in Venezuela Ultimas Noticias–denunciation made by Lilna Ron last week.)

    [Edited]

  • Billybob

    ATTACK OF THE BEANERS COMING TO A THEATER NEAR YOU.

  • Luis

    Dave and Clavos,

    Its true what you are saying and I greatly appreciate the time you put into researching and studying this issue.