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Unconscionable Israeli Forbearance

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Sunday, the Israeli military informed Hamas leaders identified as masterminds behind some of the ongoing bombings of Israelis that their homes were going to be bombed. This is common Israeli practice, intended to let innocents escape. Instead, hundreds of Palestinians flocked immediately to those houses as volunteer human shields.

In response, the Israeli military called off the attack. From the Associated Press:

The standoff over the homes of the militants began late Saturday when Mohammed Baroud, local leader of the Popular Resistance Committees, was informed by the army that his house would be hit. The three-story building is home to 17 people from Baroud’s family. Another militant from Hamas also received a warning.

Instead of fleeing, though, the two decided to stay in their homes and called in reinforcements. They were quickly joined by crowds of supporters, including dozens of armed men, who gathered on balconies, rooftops and in the streets outside.

The crowds are reportd to have chanted “Death to Israel. Death to America,” and local mosques and Palestinian TV and radio stations helped to mobilize supporters. Baroud said that he and his fellow militants had organized this response because they feared retaliation for their involvement in rocket attacks on Israel when another house was destroyed by a missile strike.

The Israeli Army called off the nighttime airstrikes because of the risk to the gathered crowd. It described the action as cynical exploitation “by the terrorists of uninvolved people as human shields.”

I hate to judge the Israelis on matters of defense, cause I know they’re in a very tough spot right smack between Iraq and a bunch of hard places. Plus, I’m sure there are a lot of strategic considerations that it wouldn’t even occur to me to ask. So then, and considering the fact that this crowd was chanting “Death to America,” I’ll answer it hypothetical to such a situation involving us here at Team America.

If it were MY government, I would consider this forbearance not just inappropriate, but immoral and unconscionable — a dereliction of duty. Again, we have a specific person who has been organizing the murders of Israeli citizens. It is the main one inarguably legitimate job of a government to stop people from coming in and killing their citizens. Therefore, it is their top duty to kill him.

That a bunch of Hamas supporters and even Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas purposely flocked to the place, that’s gravy. They have self-identified as your enemies, lending not just comfort and aid but their very bodies to pledge allegiance and shout “Death to Israel, Death to the US.”

The Israeli army spokesman seems to have been simply wrong and making excuses for lack of resolve when they say that these human shields were “uninvolved people.” The word went out that Israel was going to bomb this guy, so hundreds of people flocked to the place specifically and on purpose. That seems to pretty unambiguously constitute choosing to get involved.

This is substantially different from other involuntary uses of human shields, for example in the 2006 raids into Lebanon. I question how “innocent” many of those civilians were, but certainly there were a good many people got killed accidentally because they simply had the bad luck of living in the neighborhood.

This story today, however, was nothing like that. The whole Palestinian tactic here hinges exactly on people purposely trying to get killed. They’re trying to commit mass suicide-by-cop. They should have been accommodated.

Thus their self-declared enemies gathered together there daring the Israelis to wipe them out as an orgiastic fulfillment of their culture of death. I could understand if the Jews lamented like the Ed O’Neill character, “Why do they always come to me to die?” Nonetheless, it is the responsibility of the military to kill people who are actively engaged in trying to kill all Jews and destroy Israel. They should have absolutely obliterated the block full of volunteers, down to the lizards, as Borat would say. Not killing all those people appears to be a gross dereliction of duty.

We and the Israelis get a lot of this just because we accept it, and we are understandably and to a large extent appropriately squeamish about killing people. But of course, that goodwill is not reciprocated, but instead understood as weakness. We recoil from striking down even those plotting murders against us.

If flocking to a known terror mastermind like this still isn’t regarded as sufficient reason to take them out, then what would be? If you let stuff like this go by, then you’re just not serious about doing whatever is necessary to defend your country and your family.

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  • Les Slater

    Human solidarity, has triumphed against arrogant imperial might.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Les, you are as big a fool as Jamie is. Do yourself a big favor. Stay away from this country; when the missiles hit, and they will, you may well get hit.

    Mr. Barger, are you beginning to see why I write what I do? The truth of the matter is that the Israeli army is no longer prepared to handle a bombardment or an invasion by foreign forces. The big reason is treason at the top – from Olmert on down to the area commands in the IDF.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Brother Ruvy, I feel your pain. This incident is highly frustrating even to me sitting safe in Indiana. Who exactly do you figure your government was afraid of pissing off that would cause such a gross dereliction? Are they that scared of the French denouncing you at the UN, or what?

    The worst thing though is that this kind of behavior from Israel or any Western country will only end up increasing deaths among Arabs and Muslims eventually, besides their own losses. A stitch in time saves nine. But rather than seriously nipping this stuff in the bud, I’m afraid your people are just going to dick around like this until, say, you get hit with some kind of nerve gas attack in Tel Aviv, and you end up killing ten times more people in response than if your government was acting in a more responsible manner now.

    The same goes for the US, though we’re not nearly as nice as the Israelis. Then again, our restraint is also based on US not having been hit at home for five years. But it wouldn’t take another attack on the scale of 9/11 to change that at this point. Some of these jackasses blow up a Burger King in Kansas a couple of years from now with President Hillary in charge, and they’ll wish they were dealing with W again.

  • MAOZ

    Al, I gotta disagree with you where you write that the “Palestinian” tactic hinges on people purposely trying to get themselves killed, as a sort of mass suicide-by-cop. I don’t think they were trying to get themselves killed at all. I think they were consciously, deliberately [and justifiably, as events proved] relying on the deep Israeli reluctance to risk enemy civilian lives, no matter how tenuously “innocent bystanders”, in order to save the lives of their favorite local Jew-killers.

    Other than that, great post.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Brother Al,

    Fist of all, I’m not joking around now. I know this is going to stick in your throat, having read your blog and all, but the problem is treason due to lack of trust in G-d. Everything else flows from that.

    We Jews are not here because some dipshit in British royalty issued a proclamation (the Balfour Declaration) that was ratified by another pack of dipshits in frock coats and ties (the League of Nations). We are all here because it is G-d’s will that we return at long last to our land. But I will not bore you with Jewish books of prophecy. You can read them youself. Bottom line. unless repentence comes from us, the prophecies come true.

    None of our leaders, most of whom could give two shits about the Almighty, are repenting. None of them are thinking to thank G-d for six years of aboove average rain in this terribly dry country; none of them are recognizing that Qassam missiles not hitting the electrical or chemical plants in Ashkelon or killing dozens of kids in schoools are Divine mercy, and not just bad aim; I’m not talking about the custard heads on this site now (of whom there are many), I’m talking about the traitors in Jerusalem.

    None of these idiots are thinking to thank G-d that the HizbAllah armed most all of their Katyushas with nails! They could have put in explosives instead.

    Even “religious” Jews (you know, the kinds with the kippot and the beards and long tassels sticking out of their pants) necessarily understand what is really happening here, though they seem to and would like to make everybody else think they do.

    Let’s get clear what a believer is, though.

    A believer is not necessarily a religious Jew with the beard and the tassels. A believer is not a fellow who has faith that the sun will rise tomorrow. A believer knows what he is praying for (I’n not talking about “G-d help me find a parking space” type prayers) and believes that these prayers will come true. A believer can sit on thousands of dollars of bills due and NOT go crazy, but remain serene because he believes that G-d will help him find a way out of his troubles. Anybody else would go nuts or panic with fear. A believer (and I know this will stick in your throat and make you want to vomit) can accept the will of G-d. Peacefully.

    There are no believers in our government.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    A final point to make my answer a bit clearer. A beleiever is not necessarily a fellow who recites every single day, “aní ma’amín b’emuná shlemá” (I believe with full faith) every day. But whenever he does, he says it with all of his heart and all of his soul and he means every syllable.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Al, nice to see this counterpoint to Heathlander’s endless anti-israeli tirades. By bringing this incident to light you show clearly and unequivocally why there’s no room for compassion when dealing with vermin like Hamas.

    Dave

  • http://silverstarhawk.livejournal.com Jared Wright

    Had Israel wiped out the entire squad of volunteers, it would have been better than the random attack that hit those kids yesterday. They said what was going to happen, they gave fair warning. If civillians flock to the spot where destruction will shortly take place, they deserve the protection of civillians no longer. It’s just when people are injured or killed for being in the wrong place at the wrong time that I start to get pissed.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ Elliott

    Great article, Al.

    This sort of “compassionate” weakness on the part of Israel in particular, and the West in general, will only result in many, many more innocents being killed at some point in the near future.

    One example: Iran has placed a large number of their nuclear (weapons!!!) facilities very close to residential population centers. There is one very clear and obvious reason for this: Such strategic placement will likely dissuade Westerners from bombing these facilities. And even if the West (Israel or the US) were to decide to bomb those facilities anyway, Iran could then accuse them of gleefully slaughtering innocent civilians…and then would be “justified” in unleashing of their terrorist surrogates against the West. So, for Iran, it’s a win-win proposition.

    President Bush promised that we would treat the terrorists and those nations who support them in the same manner. But he hasn’t bombed Iran or Syria yet, so I guess that was a bluff…

  • http://heathlander.wordpress.com Jamie Stern-Weiner

    “The crowds are reportd to have chanted “Death to Israel. Death to America”

    You mention this several times as if it means something. The connection you are implicitly making is that because these people were chanting “death to Israel” it is OK to bomb them. Your demonisation of the Palestinian resistance just doesn’t stand up to the reality of a brutal military occupation and those who are suffering horrendously under it.

    “I would consider this forbearance not just inappropriate, but immoral and unconscionable”

    You would consider it “immoral” to not kill hundreds of nonviolent protestors for the sake of destroying a house? Hmm…

    “It is the main one inarguably legitimate job of a government to stop people from coming in and killing their citizens. Therefore, it is their top duty to kill him.”

    By that argument, it is positively “immoral” and a “dereliction of duty” for Hamas not to launch Qassams at Israeli civilians and not to send suicide bombers to blow themselves up in Israeli markets (after all, Hamas don’t have F-16s).

    No. If basic morality doesn’t suffice (and in your case, it appear that this is so), then we have the law. Under the law, it is wrong for the Palestinian resistance to use terrorism as a method of fighting Israel. Under the same system of law, it is wrong for Israel to kill hundreds of peaceful resistors for the sake of destroying a house.

    “That seems to pretty unambiguously constitute choosing to get involved.”

    Yes – non-violently. You can “get involved” in the resistance without resorting to violence. In fact, that’s exactly what we should be looking for – non-violent Palestinian resistance.

    “The whole Palestinian tactic here hinges exactly on people purposely trying to get killed.”

    No, they tried to stop the house being destroyed and, luckily, they succeeded.

    “Thus their self-declared enemies gathered together there daring the Israelis to wipe them out as an orgiastic fulfillment of their culture of death.”

    Oh dear – back to the old ‘Palestinians are animals who love death and hate peace and whose sole purpose in life is to destroy the Jews’ crap again. It’s not even worth bothering with.

    Can you imagine if someone tried to convince you that the Native Americans, who fought at times brutally against the colonisers, did so out of a ‘love of death’ or out of some strange inexplicable desire to see the white man driven into the sea? You would laugh. You’d say that no, Native Americans fought and (to the extent that they did) hated the invaders because they feared displacement. And yet when it comes to the Israeli/Palestine conflict, your frankly racist views allow to say with a straight face that the Palestinians hate Israel and fight against Israel not because of the occupation and not because of fear of displacement, but because of an irrational hatred of Jews.
    It’s absurd.

    “But of course, that goodwill is not reciprocated, but instead understood as weakness.”

    Excuse me, but…ISRAEL IS THE OCCUPIER. You keep forgetting, wilfully it seems, this fundamental dynamic.

    Dave: “Al, nice to see this counterpoint to Heathlander’s endless anti-israeli tirades”

    If you can point me to one ‘anti-Israel tirade’ I will be very surprised. Or are you just doing that thing supporters of Israel do sometimes and conflating criticism of Israel’s policies with criticism of Israel as a country?

    >”If civillians flock to the spot where destruction will shortly take place, they deserve the protection of civillians no longer.”

    But you’re missing the context of hundreds of Israeli house demolitions, the majority of which are targeted against civilians, of a brutal military campaign that has seen over 300 Palestinians dead since June 25 and a military occupation that has seen double the number of children killed this year compared to last.
    In this context, it is absolutely justifiable for Palestinians to try and stop Israeli military action of any form. The fact that they did it non-violently was commendable.

    The hypocrisy on display here is unbelievable. The woman that was killed by a Qassam in Sderot yesterday was the first to be killed so in 16 months. To put that in contrast, last week roughly 80 Palestinians were killed by the IOF.

    In response to this one Qassam death, Al and Ruvy and Dave and the others turn apoplectic with rage and say ‘to Hell with the law, to Hell to Palestinian “rights”, Israel must defend itself from these Qassams’ and argue for the killing of hundreds of peaceful Palestinian resistors.

    And yet when 19 people were shelled in Beit Hanun or when any one of the hundreds of civilians that have been killed this year were killed, non of you demanded in fury that the Palestinian forget the law, forget “Israeli rights” and send suicide bombers to kill hundreds of Israeli civilians.

    The differing value you place on Palestinian and Israeli life is shocking.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Man, you’re slow, Jamie.

    What the Arabs are doing is Gaza is insurrection and war. And finally, they are getting the war they sought for five years. Magía lahém! It’s coming to them They deserve it – richly!

    As for placing value on life, let’s put it this way. I will not put my ass on the line and die at an Arab’s hand just so that you can have “moral equivalency.” It is that simple.

  • SFC SKI

    Jamie, you really can’t see the forest for the trees. These protesters may have been non-violent, but the fact that they chose to hold their protest surrounding the targeted individuals also means they were doing it to protect him.

    Moderate Palestinians? They were the ones smart enough to stay away from that building. When they are not willing to act as human shields, HAMAS thugs will intimidate them into taking that role.

    Someone mentioned Lebanon, and those unfortunate enough to live in the bombed neighborhoods. The Hizbollah fighters purposefully put themselves amongst civilians, endangering them, either Israel won’t bomb them there, or if they do, it will get them more press and sympathy. (We face the same problems in many neighborhoods in Iraq.)

    Notice that even though HAMAS is part of the legally elected government in Gaza, IIRC, and as such should be arresting these targeted individuals not protecting them.
    HAMAS, as well as most of these terror organizations really do a much better job manipulating the media by crying for sympathy and getting it on page 1, but keeping a lot of their blatant calls for jihad buried deep, or out of the press entirely.

    These types of terrorists and their sympathizers are unscrupulous, and not fair players. They see any concession or compromise as a weakness to be exploited, not a step towards a solution.

    Personally, I think Israel may have to reconsider the issuance of warnings; if the people want to protect a murderer in their midst, might they also be considered guilty?

    We’d better pay attention to Israel’s actions, and not be too judgmental, either, because our forbearance is a weakness that will be exploited, and we American’s may have to make the same hard calls as well.

  • Les Slater

    A lot of right wingers don’t seem to think the United Nations has any role to play in the Middle East. I agree whole-heartedly with that view.

    The real power in the so-called United Nations is a gang of thieves.

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Jamie- the stuff you’re saying is just so wrong and stilted and dishonest at a basic level as to invite ridicule. Particularly, it would be an abuse of the word “disingenuous” to use it in modify your description of these Palestinians as “non-violent.” They weren’t specifically shooting at the Israelis right that second, but their whole point was specifically to protect an asshole who has continually plotted the murder of Israelis. That unequivocally makes every one of them direct accomplices to this guy’s wickedness.

    Your equivalence of Israeli self-defense to Palestinian terrorism is utterly and 100% bogus and not even vaguely the same thing. The only way it would begin to have any validity is if you worked from the premise that the existence of Israel per se is illegitimate. Perhaps you’d like to try making that argument directly.

    Otherwise, there’s no comparison. If you accept that Israel has a right to exist at all, then they’re generally extremely restrained in how they go about defending themselves.

    The “culture of death” among Arabs/Muslims and especially Palestinians is clearly a real and practical phenomenon. Many of them say so themselves, variations of saying that they love death more than the Israelis love life. That this is a real and practical thing rather than just trash talk can be judged by the fact that they regularly and gladly send their kids on suicide missions to blow up the Jewish kids.

    Finally, I remain utterly unimpressed with your made-up bogus invocations of any supposed “law” that says the Jews have to just sit there and let these vermin kill them off on grounds that self-defense is supposedly wrong.

  • SFC SKI

    It’s sad that some people can’t see the difference between the actions of the two. Israel states to one man,”You are being targeted by us, if you as a leader, care for your family and followers, you will encourage them to leave your presence before we attack”. Instead, the target calls for people to protect him!

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    “Your equivalence of Israeli self-defense to Palestinian terrorism is utterly and 100% bogus and not even vaguely the same thing. The only way it would begin to have any validity is if you worked from the premise that the existence of Israel per se is illegitimate. Perhaps you’d like to try making that argument directly.”

    There you go, Jamie. You have an assignment.

    Explain to us, using any standard you wish, why there should be one Palestine, from the river to the sea, and why the rich fucks in north Tel Aviv should be kicked off the Arab village they stole. You might want to explain how you’re going to join that UN force to protect us imperialist Zionist pigs from the righteous anger of the Arabs we have aroused over the last ten decades, too.

    BTW, if you decide to show guts and join such a force, bring plenty of copies of the Geneva Convention to read to the Arabs as they spread democracy through the land by rioting, raping and killing Jews…

    Anyway, go ahead and write the article. I guarantee you, there will be no such a thing in this land in your lifetime or even in your great grandchildren’s lifetime.

  • Valery Dawe

    #10 “ISRAEL IS THE OCCUPIER. You keep forgetting, wilfully it seems, this fundamental dynamic.”

    They seem to have skipped over that part of your message. No doubt by accident.

  • Les Slater

    Valerie,

    Not only is Israel the occupier of the occupied lands, but Israel itself is occupied land.

    Israel is a colonial settler state that exists by the grace of imperialism alone.

    Les

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ Elliott

    “Israel is a colonial settler state that exists by the grace of imperialism alone.”

    It’s also the only semi-decent country in the entire region.

    Islam has “colonized” (by the sword, or the threat of it) large portions of sub-Saharan Africa and Southeast Asia. Where’s the outrage?

  • http://www.morethings.com/log Al Barger

    Well now, Les is finally getting down to the ultimate premise you would need to justify criticizing Israeli defense: He questions whether they have a right to exist at all. If you say that the state of Israel is an illegitimate occupation period, then you would have a basis for criticism- but of course you’d have to convince people of that. That area is the ancestral homeland of the Jews just as much as anyone’s, though.

    So then Les, what is it you figure the Jews are morally supposed to do, march off into the seas, or throw themselves down the wells?

  • Les Slater

    Al,

    You are correct to say that my position is that Israel has no right to exist.

    “…what is it you figure the Jews are morally supposed to do, march off into the seas, or throw themselves down the wells?”

    The state of Israel is a political entity. It has nothing to do with the survival of the Jews. Whether you agree or not, many are blaming Jews in general for the policies of the State of Israel.

    Many, including leftists, say that Jews have taken over U.S. policy in the Middle East, which of course, is horseshit, but nonetheless grist for the Jew hating mill. This is a lethal danger for Jews.

    Not only Jews, but also others, that believe the existence of Israel is synonymous with the interests of Jews, will first have to break that perceived equivalence. Nothing will break the hostility of Arab neighbors than Jews, especially in Israel, massively denouncing the policies and actions of Israel.

    Palestine needs to be a place where Jews and all others can live together. It would have to be a secular state. This is in the interest of the Arab masses and could deliver a solution, which they will know the clerics could never match.

    Les

  • http://heathlander.wordpress.com Jamie Stern-Weiner

    Ruvy:“What the Arabs are doing is Gaza is insurrection and war.”

    No, it’s resistance. To deny that it is so is to deny the existence of the occupation, which only a wilfully blind person can do.

    SFC SKI:“These protesters may have been non-violent, but the fact that they chose to hold their protest surrounding the targeted individuals also means they were doing it to protect him.”

    Yes. The Palestinians want Israel to stop demolishing houses, which is completely understandable and justified when you look at Israel’s histroy of house demolitions and their consequences for the Palestinian people. Qassams are one way to try and stop Israel from doing things like demolishing houses. Suicide bombings are another way. Both of those ways are immoral, however, and have been shown not to work. I prefer this way – its non-violent and it, so far at least, appears to have worked.

    “Someone mentioned Lebanon, and those unfortunate enough to live in the bombed neighborhoods. The Hizbollah fighters purposefully put themselves amongst civilians, endangering them, either Israel won’t bomb them there, or if they do, it will get them more press and sympathy.”

    Hizbullah did sometimes locate themselves and their weapons near civilian areas and this of course is wrong. But read the HRW report, which says that this picture of a Hizbullah fighter hiding behind every civilian who was killed is just false. The ‘hiding behind civilians’ excuse can, according to Human Rights Watch, neither explain nor justify that scale of the civilian casualties in Lebanon.

    Incidentally, Israel did exactly the same thing. For example with Haifa – Israel fired missiles from ships in and around the port of Haifa. Does that mean Hizbullah missiles targeted at Haifa were legitimate? I stayed in Israel during the war in the moshav Ha’Yo Gev (I think that’s how it’s spelt). Several Qassams landed in the fields nearby – they were aimed, presumably, at the military airstrip located about 5 minutes drive from the moshav (like a large village).

    “if the people want to protect a murderer in their midst, might they also be considered guilty?”

    By your logic, then, virtually the entire civilian population of Israel is a legitimate target, because undoubtedly mass murderers like Olmert and Halutz are being sheltered “in their midst”.

    Les: “A lot of right wingers don’t seem to think the United Nations has any role to play in the Middle East. I agree whole-heartedly with that view.”

    I agree, of course, that the United Nations as it is currently structured is effectively an extension of U.S. power. However, I also think that a supranational body is the only hope for a relatively peaceful, just and stable international climate, so I think energy is best spent on reforming the U.N. instead of trashing it.

    “They weren’t specifically shooting at the Israelis right that second, but their whole point was specifically to protect an asshole who has continually plotted the murder of Israelis. That unequivocally makes every one of them direct accomplices to this guy’s wickedness.”

    You’re missing the context, conveniently. The people of Gaza have had to endure bombs, house demolitions and civilian deaths for months without a break. Israel often demolishes houses for no justifiable military reason. They are absolutely within their rights to say ‘enough is enough’ and do what they can to stop Israel from demolishing houses. The fact that the house belonged to a militant does not matter, because as I said Israel has long shown that it is completely unable and/or unwilling to make the distinction between militants and civilians and to abide by the law. Thus, the Palestinians are completely entitled to demand that Israel stop all military action in the Gaza Strip. By showing it cannot abide by the law, cannot stop killing civilians and cannot make the distinction between the houses of militants and civilians, Israel has (morally, at least) forfeited the right to demolish houses.

    “Your equivalence of Israeli self-defense to Palestinian terrorism is utterly and 100% bogus and not even vaguely the same thing.”

    What, apart from the fact that you label Israeli violence “self-defense” and Palestinian violence “terrorism”, distinguishes the two? I can think of two things: 1. Israeli terrorism is of a much larger scale and 2. Whilst Israeli terrorism is conducted in service of the occupation, Palestinian terrorism is conducted in service of resistance to an occupation.

    Neither is legitimate and you have to recognise that.

    “The only way it would begin to have any validity is if you worked from the premise that the existence of Israel per se is illegitimate.”

    No, it has nothing to do with the legitimacy of Israel at all. I’m not going to go over this again – you need to separate the issues instead of conflating them every time it becomes convenient. Israel within the pre-1967 borders is fine. Whilst there is argument about whether Israel should exist at all – after all, if we accept that racism and ethnic cleansing is immoral and unnacceptable, how can we conclude differently about Zionism? – I am not going to advocate for the destruction of Israel. The law is clear on the matter – Israel within the pre-1967 borders is fine. It is the occupation of the Palestinians together with the continued refusal to allow the refugees to return that is the problem.

    “If you accept that Israel has a right to exist at all, then they’re generally extremely restrained in how they go about defending themselves.”

    Restrained? You’re living in an absolute fantasy world. Israel does not fight the Palestinians out of self-defence. It fights them because it is not willing to end the occupation. On June 25 of this year, some Palestinian militants captured an Israeli soldier. In other words, they did what Israel legalised in 1997 and routinely does (except, unlike what often happens when Israel tries to kidnap a Palestinian, Shalit wasn’t killed). Israel used this as an excuse to launch a full-scale invasion of Gaza, destroying government buildings, destroying houses, bombing the power station and killing hundreds of people (mostly civilians).
    This is what you call “restraint”?

    “That this is a real and practical thing rather than just trash talk can be judged by the fact that they regularly and gladly send their kids on suicide missions to blow up the Jewish kids.”

    A “culture of death” is not a reason for the resistance to occupation; the occupation is. It’s really quite simple.

    “I remain utterly unimpressed with your made-up bogus invocations of any supposed “law” that says the Jews have to just sit there and let these vermin kill them off on grounds that self-defense is supposedly wrong.”

    Wow, made-up AND bogus..I must have outdone myself! Seriously Al, you’re getting silly. I cited no made-up law nor any law that denied Israel the right to defend itself. Your whole sentence was a fabrication.

    “Israel states to one man,”You are being targeted by us, if you as a leader, care for your family and followers, you will encourage them to leave your presence before we attack”. Instead, the target calls for people to protect him!”

    Israel has destroyed dozens of houses in recent months and hundreds in recent years. Many have belonged to civilians. Yet you expect the Palestinians to sit idly by and let Israel continue to destroy houses whenever it wants? Isn’t that just a tad unreasonable?

    Ruvy: “Anyway, go ahead and write the article. I guarantee you, there will be no such a thing in this land in your lifetime or even in your great grandchildren’s lifetime.”

    I have never argued for such a thing. I have always advocated what the majority of the world advocates – a two-state solution. A one-state solution would probably be morally better, but I can’t see it happening.

    RJ Elliot: “It’s also the only semi-decent country in the entire region.”

    That is a) a value judgement and b) totally irrelevent.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Les,

    What you say is most amusing. The reason is that you are honestly trying to do good for the Jewish people. If you were just a self-hating yid like Jamie who doesn’t ever let you in on the fact that he’s part of The Tribe until you press him on the point, what you write would piss me off. Let’s explain a couple of realities to you. You’ll need to put down your Marxist tomes to comprehend this, for it has nothing to do with the consciousness of the working class or developing a world revolution to create a workers’ state.

    Wahhabi hostility to non-Moslems is what is driving the antagonism towards Israel with an ideology that Jews must either convert or die. The same goes for Christians, Hindus, Confucians, Buddhists and the rest of the world, but we’re only talking about The Tribe here. This means that nothing we do will quell the hostility of Arabs who have been influenced by Wahhabi ideology. Either we convert or die. From their point of view, that’s it.

    There is nothing to be put on the table, no talking points, no nothing. Convert or die. It is that simple. That is what is behind Hamas. Hamas is nothing more than the local branch office of the Egyptian Moslem Brotherhood, which if you trace it back to its own origins, has close ties with the Wahhabi in Arabia.

    The PLO, the “secular” arm of Arab “liberation” here is nothing more than the local branch office of the Egyptian Moslem Breotherhood with a candy coating of secularism to make it acceptable to Moslems who like “nationalist” ideologies, or “socialist” ideologies. That is why, according to the PA, Sharia is the basis for law in their little shtatelleh that they are pretending to administer under the constitution they have written. That is also why Christian Arabs are persecuted in the PA wherever it has effective control.

    The power of Hamas is built on the fact that they give out food to the poor (when they can) and aid the poor. Charity is part of Islam just as it is part of Judaism, and these guys do practice charity in a big way. This means that once you are sitting down at their table, eating their lentil soup, they can explain the world to you from their point of view. They do expect you to listen to them if you are eating their food.

    Now, let’s tie up the other end of the package and explain why they were elected over the PLO. The PLO got into power courtesy of the Israeli government which was looking for a dictatorship to control the local Arabs for them so that they could pull out of Judea, Samaria and Gaza. Shockingly, Arafat agreed to do this for them. He didn’t live up to his agreement, but until he started breaking it with bus bombings within “Green Line Israel,” he looked awful good as a partner in crime – which is exactly what he was.

    The Israeli politicians are nothing more than a mafia looking to soak their public, so they were willing to look the other way when Arafat brought in his thugs from Tunis to kill off the local Arab leadership. And the Israeli leaders saw there was money to be made. Arafat may have hated Jews, but he loved money. So he did business with the local mafia here, which also doubles as the government. If you take the trouble to Google up Arafat, Weisglass, and Martin Schlaf, you’ll see what I’m talking about. A great example of this was the ca$ino that operated near Jericho for a while, jointly owned by Arafat and a bunch of Israeli politicians, through a stack of dummy corporations.

    Arafat and his cronies, in addition to cutting deals with the Israeli mafia government, also started to systematically loot the treasury of the “PA.” That is why the standard of living of Arabs has fallen in Judea, Samaria and Gaza.

    Arafat’s downfall was twofold. He was a bloodthirsty bastard who couldn’t control his bloodlust; he liked to fuck kids. I won’t discuss his kid-fucking habits, but his bloodlust meant that he used a considerable amount of the money he robbed to finance bus bombings, car bombings, and school bombings. So long as the attacks on Jews were in Judea, Samaria or Gaza, the Israeli government didn’t care. they needed some way to get rid of settlers without having their own fingerprints on the operation, and Arafat’s thugs were just what the doctor ordered. But when the attacks were within “Green Line Israel, the government had to make excuses for all the innocents who died. Arafat’s bloodlust was an embarassment.

    Eventually, it got so out of control (2002-2003) that the IDF had to attack the ca$ino that was making the Israeli mafia money, and attack the HQ in Ramallah where Arafat was hiding a bunch of terrorists who had killed Israelis in Green Line Israel. It took the government here so long to do this because the Israeli pols didn’t want to mess up the business arrangements they had with the PLO.

    Which is why you constantly hear the theme of “strengthening Mahmoud Abbas” coming out of Jerusalem like a bad song repeated too many times. The Israeli politicians can’t do business with Hamas. The bastards are honest!! They say what they mean and they mean what they say!! “Palestine” is no longer a money making proposition.

    So the Israeli army is in Gaza killing right and left – finally. Olmert, who thinks like a small time crook, understands that if he pisses off the local Arabs too much, he won’t ever be able to cut a deal to make money again with them. So long as the Arabs keep their hands off Shaikh Munis (now north Tel Aviv), Olmert and his cronies don’t give a tinker’s dam how many Israelis die in terror attacks.

    So this has nothing to do with class consciousness or revolution or the Geneva Convention, or imperialism or anything else. This is a gang war between two criminal gangs that have used the local population as property to be destroyed. Hamas is a big pain in the ass. For Arabs who like the Wahhabi message, Hamas is a ray of hope, even if it is a ray dripping with blood.

    We Jews here keep casting around for our ray of hope – most of us know just what awful offal sits in the offices of the government. But that ray is more and more elusive as sin and robbery, “Hamás” in Hebrew, fills the land.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    “I stayed in Israel during the war in the moshav Ha’Yo Gev (I think that’s how it’s spelt). Several Qassams landed in the fields nearby – they were aimed, presumably, at the military airstrip located about 5 minutes drive from the moshav (like a large village).”

    Jamie, you really do surprise me sometimes. Your anti-Israel diatribes would have more strength to them if you pointed out to everyone, left right and center, that you were born here and that you had spent the July War here. While you were writing your comments, I was writing mine, so I didn’t see your comment here.

    I won’t call you a self-hating yid anymore – that apparently was not true. I was wrong and I’m sorry. But you are still terribly deluded.

    Look. It would be nice if there truly was a world sovereign that we all recognized as exercising lawful authority over the planet (actually, there is, but since you don’t want to recognize Him or His Authority, for the purposes of this comment ONLY there isn’t). Then all of your arguments about the “illegality” of Israel’s actions would make some sense. Waving this or that document of law in the air would be warranted.

    But we are not at that stage yet. As it is, given that the government of Israel is nothing more than a mafia with the aim of robbing its public, and in as much as the head of the PA, Mahmoud Abbas, is nothing more than the head of a criminal regime, both deserve to be shot by honest, law abiding people who truly want peace in this country and region. There is room for throwing lawbooks around. But the lawbooks do not have to do with the laws of war – they have to do with basic concepts like honestly serving the public who chose you.

    Hamas, compared to the PLO, is honest. But it wants to take its people down a path of war and destruction that will leave them bereft of what little they have. The South Syrian Arabs deserve more than bile and ashes, tears and mourning. They need to choose a path other than “my way or the highway” that Hamas holds out for them. Otherwise, they will find that their home is – the highway.

  • Les Slater

    Ruvy,

    I sincerely thank you for trying to explain all this to me.

    “The power of Hamas is built on the fact that they give out food to the poor (when they can) and aid the poor. Charity is part of Islam just as it is part of Judaism, and these guys do practice charity in a big way. This means that once you are sitting down at their table, eating their lentil soup, they can explain the world to you from their point of view. They do expect you to listen to them if you are eating their food.”

    Is this what it boils down to? Soup? And you can’t fight them at that level? You propose nukes? That’s crazy.

    You may be crazy but I know you see much. You see a pretty big picture, but not big enough.

    You hate the Israeli state more than most. You know it’s a fraud. That’s what drives you nuts. The whole Israeli state thing is fake and you know it. The politicians from the very top to the top echelons of the IDF are traitors. Not just traitors, but idiots, and they don’t even believe in God. They also do not protect Jews. The aid they get from imperialism is laced with Jew hating venom. You believe in an Israel that does not exist. Read your own #5 in this thread. You know that its Zionist founders like David Ben-Gurion were willing to trade their fellow Jews lives in the concentration camps for their right to set up a state, which they cynically called Israel.

    You are the one who does not have any solution. You call on God to bring down wrath on all the Jew hating masses of the world. But you know that the fraud of the Israeli regime could never do God’s work. You also know that Jews in the U.S. aren’t safe. You know that the imperial beast will tire of Israel and leave the Jews in the U.S. to Jew hating mobs. You know, deep down, you know that Jews fleeing to Israel would not find a safe haven. You know that the Israel state is incapable of defending Jews, you see it now. The Zionist state of Israel is a death trap for Jews and you know it. Wishful thinking will not alter that.

    Les

  • SFC SKI

    Jamie, you keep mentioning Israelis destroying houses, and that somehow legitimizes Arab suicide bombers? You say the houses are demolished for no good reason, but what about when the houses are being used to shelter terrorists, as factories for suicide vests, as camoflage for tunnels that used to smuggle arms?

    Why is it that most Palestinians choose to blame Israel for the retaliation and not the Murderers who brought about that retaliation? To answer your question, I expect the Palestinians to police themselves and arrestteh murderers in their midst, not celebrate tehm as heroes and martyrs.

    The actions of both HAMAS and Hizbollah show that unilateral disarmament and non-aggression by Israel will not be taken as good will gestures, but as weak points.

    Israel has a fair share of blame, but it has also made compromises in an effort to further peace, what have the Palestinian leaders done in return?

    Am Israeli can stand in the street and protest the war in Gaza, and suggest talking to the Palestinians, a Palestinina who does the same in Gaza is considered a collaborator and killed.

    I have met a few Palestinian expats who are successful in their adopted countries. They’d like to be able to go to the homelands that some of them were not even born in, but they know that the Palestinian leadership would not be leaders they’d want to follow.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Les,

    First off, thank you for the compliments.

    When I saw what was going to happen in Gush Qatif in early 2005, I really had to think things through. I had to figure things out because I didn’t really understand, and it WAS driving me nuts. I’m not being driven nuts by this at all now, even though you may not see that from my writing.

    I’m biding my time. I’ll quote you from my comment #5. Maybe you will comprehend.

    “We are all here because it is G-d’s will that we return at long last to our land. But I will not bore you with Jewish books of prophecy. You can read them youself. Bottom line. Unless repentence comes from us, the prophecies come true.”

    The repentence is not occurring – and the prophecies are coming true.

    Re-read the whole comment, Les, remembering that I’m biding my time, not blowing my stack.

    I’m not calling upon G-d to do anything. He’s got His program and He is executing it. Check out Zechariah 14, check out the Book of Daniel towards the end, check out Ezekiel 38 and 39. That’s just a start…

    And now I gotta get back to work. It was nice chatting…

  • http://heathlander.wordpress.com Jamie Stern-Weiner

    Ruvy: I disagree with one of the main arguments in your reply to Les – that the Israeli government wants to pull out of the West Bank. In fact, settler expansion increased dramatically after the Oslo Accord and is continuing to increase today (only recently the Israeli government issued tenders for close to a thousands new homes in the settlements. What’s more, the government has failed spectacularly even to shut down the “illegal outposts” Peretz appears so concerned about.)
    They withdrew settlers from Gaza because it didn’t make sense to have spend so many resources protecting a few thousand settlers who were taking up a third of the Strip. It made much more sense to concentrate expansion on the West Bank. And that is exactly what has happened.

    As to your second reply…

    “Your anti-Israel diatribes would have more strength to them if you pointed out to everyone, left right and center, that you were born here and that you had spent the July War here.”

    Firstly, they are not ‘anti-Israel’ and neither are they ‘diatribes’. Secondly, no they wouldn’t. The strength of an argument is completely unaffected by the character of the person making it.

    “I won’t call you a self-hating yid anymore – that apparently was not true. I was wrong and I’m sorry.”

    That is most kind, although I don’t see how the fact that I went to Israel in the summer has suddenly changed your mind…

    “Then all of your arguments about the “illegality” of Israel’s actions would make some sense. Waving this or that document of law in the air would be warranted.”

    I agree that it would be nice. In fact, more than nice: necessary if we are ever to live in a world where things like justice, equality and peace are achievable for the vast majority of people.
    I don’t agree that because we are not there yet, the law doesn’t matter. The only way we will ever get there, in fact, is by accepting that just as individuals in society must follow the law regarding their relations with others, so states must follow the law regarding their relations with other states.

    “There is room for throwing lawbooks around. But the lawbooks do not have to do with the laws of war – they have to do with basic concepts like honestly serving the public who chose you.”

    The law applies to both. It is plainly false to deny that there are laws that dictate how wars should be fought and when they should be waged – they exist and that’s a fact. By accepting certain international legal documents like the Geneva Conventions, Israel has accepted that it will be bound, legally, by their terms.
    You can argue that it is OK to be a criminal state and I have argued with you why it isn’t several times before.

    “But it wants to take its people down a path of war and destruction that will leave them bereft of what little they have.”

    To the contrary; it was Hamas that first formulated the concept of ‘long-term ceasefire’. Hamas signed the prisoner’s document. In 2002, Hamas was one of the terror groups that were about to sign an agreement to limit attacks on Israel to settlements and the IDF, before an IAF F-16 tried to assassinate Shehada by dropping a one-tonne bomb on a crowded Gaza neighbourhood, killing nine children.

    It is true that Hamas has so far refused to give up its commitment to Israel’s destruction. When Israel started talking to Fatah, Fatah too was committed to Israel’s destruction. But there were talks and negotiations and Fatah eventually gave it up.
    The reason why Israel isn’t treating Hamas the same way is not because Hamas is more radical. Fatah is a financer of suicide bombings through its al-Aqsa Brigades, even more radical than Hamas, who committed themselves to a unilateral ceasefire for well over a year. It’s because Israel knows that, like you say, Hamas is honest and will demand that Palestinian legal rights be respected (unlike the corrupt Fatah under Arafat).

    But Hamas isn’t the problem. Israel was no closer to ending the occupation before the January elections and before the Hamas government. Then, the problem was Abbas. Before him, the problem was Arafat. Now, the problem is Hamas. It has nothing to do with the Palestinian leadership and everything to do with Israel being unwilling, at the moment, to end the occupation.

    SFC SKI: “Jamie, you keep mentioning Israelis destroying houses, and that somehow legitimizes Arab suicide bombers?”

    What? When did I say that? In fact, I explicitly said, “Neither [Israeli nor Palestinian terrorism] is legitimate”.

    “You say the houses are demolished for no good reason, but what about when the houses are being used to shelter terrorists, as factories for suicide vests, as camoflage for tunnels that used to smuggle arms?”

    I’m saying that often civilian houses are destroyed and often civilians get hurt when houses are destroyed (and not because they have chosen to be human shields).
    Of course, many of the houses Israel destroys are home to militants. I’m not saying Israel goes out of its way to solely target civilian homes. I’m saying Israel has shown that they are either unwilling or unable to make the clear distinction between civilian and military targets. Until they can be trusted, then, they have forfeited their right to demolish houses.

    “Why is it that most Palestinians choose to blame Israel for the retaliation and not the Murderers who brought about that retaliation?”

    What if I asked you, ‘Why is it that Israelis blame the Palestinians for their retaliation (the Qassams) and not the occupiers and murderers that brought about that retaliation?’
    Israel is the occupier here. The Palestinian resistance, even when it uses illegitimate means of resisting, is a resistance (ie. a retaliation) to the occupation.

    “The actions of both HAMAS and Hizbollah show that unilateral disarmament and non-aggression by Israel will not be taken as good will gestures, but as weak points.”

    Disarmament? Non-aggression? I’m afraid neither Hamas nor Hizbullah nor any resident of Lebanon, Gaza or the West Bank would recognise that description of Israel.
    Israel didn’t stop occupying Gaza and Hizbullah and Israel fought a low-level war constantly ever since 2000. It was Israel that decided to escalate it into a full-scale war.

    Surely the lessons to be learned are a) don’t do things unilaterally. The opinions of the other people involve do matter, and drawing a border line on a map means nothing if it is only accepted by the people on one side of that line, and b) don’t occupy people for decades, because when you do they tend to hate you and form groups to fight you.

    “but it has also made compromises in an effort to further peace, what have the Palestinian leaders done in return?”

    Except for a few exceptions (for example the talks at Taba) Israel has had a rejectionist attitude towards peace.
    What compromises for peace did Israel make in Oslo, or at Camp David? Remember, the framework in which to look at all this is what international law demands. Under international law, the Palestinians have a right to an independent state comprising 100% of the West Bank and Gaza, with East Jerusalem as its capital. The Palestinian refugees, every single last one of them, have a legal right to return to their homes inside of Israel. That’s the law. On all of those issues, it is the Palestinians who have compromised (sometimes hugely), not Israel.

    “a Palestinina who does the same in Gaza is considered a collaborator and killed.”

    That’s not true; there are plenty of Palestinian activists who advocate a peace with Israel. In fact, according to polls, the vast majority of the Palestinian population accept that the solution to the conflict will be a political settlement. Abbas and his Fatah party are also of that view, as is Hamas.

  • Les Slater

    Ruvy,

    “Re-read the whole comment, Les, remembering that I’m biding my time, not blowing my stack.”

    I’ve read it several times, and a lot of your other stuff too.

    So, you’re “..not calling upon G-d to do anything. He’s got His program and He is executing it.” You toss in some biblical references. I got through Zechariah 14. Colorful, but I’m not impressed.

    So, you present no solution except we all need to repent. You got yourself a ringside seat and you’re waiting for the fireworks to begin.

    I noticed you only denied two things, you not commanding God and you are not nuts anymore. Is the rest of what I say true? Be courageous and honest and admit it.

    Les

  • http://beyondbabylon.blogspot.com David Ben-Ariel
  • Les Slater

    Israel is a fraud. It is not now, nor since its modern creation, been set up as a safe haven for Jews. It was set up, and remains still, the cat’s paw of imperialism. Ruvy knows this but is afraid to say it in so many words.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    It looks like this is out of my hands, Les. There is nothing I can call for to do, unless I’m willing to steal a lot of money and a lot of guns and ammo and try and start a revolution here. I’m not delusional as to what I can do.

    I did have a thin reed of hope – that the Sanhedrin would develop enough to display the kind of leadership needed to sit down with Arabs willing to talk peace on the basis of the commonalities of the Qur’an and the Torah. Those commonalities are there, and were the Jewish religious leaders focused enough to step forward and act as leaders instead of special pleaders, there is a group of Arab religious leaders willing to talk to them – based on continuing from the Weitzman-Feisal talks of 1919. Root & Branch has made the Arab side possible.

    That is unlikely to happen, as I see it now. Jewish religious leaders are so unfocused that they cannot even have a meeting on “agunót,” women, who for technical reasons of Jewish law cannot remarry, even though they are in effect divorced.

    You’ve accurately summarized what I’ve said, leaving one important point out. There is a Divine program that is unfolding day by day to bring major powers and armies to this little region. Exactly how this will work, I cannot say. G-d does not allow me to interview Him. The general outlines are in the book of Daniel and follow the prophecy of Bila’am when read backwards. They may involve nukes, they may not. If events move quickly, the nukes will come from the US or the EU atacking Iran. If they move slowly, the missiles will attack us without nuclear payloads.

    The irony will be that as dangerous as the world will be for us Jews, this country will be the safest place for us.

    The way it looks to me, this place is set to blow right around Hanukkah. If the internet goes, I’ll take my lawn chairs and bridge table to my neighbors on the edge of the village and watch the “fun” while I contemplate how to get some food to eat for the family. It should be a very interesting winter.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Just a final point, to make things clear to you. I don’t look at the STATE of Israel as the saving hope of the Jewish people. Events have moved beyond the state, which is on the verge of collapse – somethng its leaders are too stupid to see. The STATE can be sacrificed with no great loss. The kids will still have their guns and enough of a sense of common destiny to understand that we have to stand together. So, some kind of army will be there for self defense.

    We are on the lips of destiny, waiting for the Word to be spoken…

  • Les Slater

    Ruvy,

    I’ll be away from a computer for a day or two.

    Peace,

    Les

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ Elliott

    “Israel within the pre-1967 borders is fine.”

    Yeah, tell that to the Muslim Arab terrorists. I’m sure they’ll agree with you…

    By the way, when are they going to release Gilad Shalit?

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ Elliott

    “A “culture of death” is not a reason for the resistance to occupation; the occupation is. It’s really quite simple.”

    Do you feel that the US was illegally occupying Saudi Arabia when 19 Arab Muslims (who, of course, don’t believe in a “culture of death”) used suicide hijackers against thousands of American civilians?

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ Elliott

    “Israel didn’t stop occupying Gaza”

    Yes, actually, they did.

    “and Hizbullah and Israel fought a low-level war constantly ever since 2000. It was Israel that decided to escalate it into a full-scale war.”

    Only after Hizbullah abducted Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev, and killed eight other Israeli soldiers…

  • http://heathlander.wordpress.com Jamie Stern-Weiner

    “Yeah, tell that to the Muslim Arab terrorists. I’m sure they’ll agree with you…

    By the way, when are they going to release Gilad Shalit?”

    That’s not an argument. As to Shalit – how do I know? What’s your point? Do you have one? Shalit, as a solider of the occupying army, is an absolutely legitimate target for the resistance. By capturing him, Hamas broke no laws – it was completely legitimate.

    As to Saudi Arabia – stop conflating issues. If you want to talk about Saudi Arabia then fine, but don’t try to make out that it has anything to do with the Palestinians.

    “Yes, actually, they did.”

    No, they didn’t. That’s what the NGOs say, the UN says, Israeli journalists say..Israel retained control over the minutae of Gazan life, be it borders, airspace or the economy – the ‘disengagement’ merely illustrated, as John Dugard put it, that a modern power has the technology to occupy a people by remote control.

    “Only after Hizbullah abducted Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev, and killed eight other Israeli soldiers…”

    Right. As I said, Israel and Hizbullah had been engaged in a constant low-level war ever since 2000. This involved kidnappings and firing rockets at military bases on the Hizbullah side and violations of airspace, holding of hostages and the odd assassination attempt on the Israeli side. There was nothing unusual about the Hizbullah raid which captued those two soldiers. It was another act in the ongoing low-level war. What was unusual is that Israel used the capture of those two soldiers as an excuse to put into place a long formulated plan to wage total war on Lebanon as a country.
    Israel was the aggressor, in the same way that if we kept poking each other for ages and then suddenly in response to one of your pokes I shot you dead, I would be the aggressor.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ Elliott

    “Shalit, as a solider of the occupying army, is an absolutely legitimate target for the resistance. By capturing him, Hamas broke no laws – it was completely legitimate.”

    Wow. So you believe that a terrorist organization that abducts a soldier (who wasn’t engaged in any offensive operations) and keeps him kidnapped in total seclusion for months (which completely violates the Geneva Conventions) is “legitimate.”

    FOAD

  • http://heathlander.wordpress.com Jamie Stern-Weiner

    He was deployed on the Gaza border as part of a massing of Israeli troops in preparation for an offensive. He was a soldier of the occupying army and so is absolutely a legitimate target. People have a basic right to resist foreign military occupations; targeting civilians is illegitimate, but of course soldiers are acceptable targets. To think otherwise would be to deny the Palestinian right to resist occupation.

    Now, how he has been treated after being captured is not necessarily OK. I don’t know how he’s been treated. As far as I know, Hamas have not signed the Geneva Conventions and are not bound by them (which makes sense; if you read the Conventions you’ll see that they are drawn up for states and do not fit with non-state organisations). But in any event, how he has been treated afterwards, which may be legal or illegal, does not affect the fact that he was a legitimate target for capture in the first place.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ Elliott

    “how he has been treated after being captured is not necessarily OK. I don’t know how he’s been treated. As far as I know, Hamas have not signed the Geneva Conventions and are not bound by them (which makes sense; if you read the Conventions you’ll see that they are drawn up for states and do not fit with non-state organisations).”

    Which is why the Geneva Conventions are less than worthless when dealing with terrorist organizations.

    Hamas regularly slaughters the innocent wholesale and brags about it? No problem!

    Israel defends itself by attacking Hamas? Whoa buddy, those Jews just violated the Geneva Conventions!

    I’m sure you have plenty of excuses for the Palestinians dancing in the streets and handing out candy to their children in celebration in the immediate aftermath of 9/11…

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ Elliott

    UPDATE: Israel offers cease-fire, Hamas accepts…and then keeps firing anyway.

    How is Israel supposed to negotiate with scum like this?