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To Tea or Not To Tea

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As a long term, proud political dissident and rebel I have had some admiration for the national tea party movement. I welcome all that shakes up and reforms our dysfunctional political system. But in the end I find far too much distasteful about what these people embrace to participate in or support it.

I have been especially disappointed with their lack of interest in reforming the American political system through a third political party. Sometimes tea party people say they are fed up with both major parties, but they keep supporting Republicans. As if this will put people in Congress who would actually act as independents and work courageously to enact true, deep reforms. Call my cynical, but I doubt whether people like Senator Scott Brown will resist pressures to be loyal Republicans no matter how extensively they avoid calling themselves Republicans in their campaigns. Sadly, the tea party movement is a blow to third parties, particularly the Libertarian Party that has struggled for many years. Could some very clever people be using this movement to strengthen the Republican Party rather than transform the political system? If so, then most of the tea party crowd have been conned and deceived.

Second, I am nauseated by the noxious negative views about President Obama, even though I did not support or vote for him. Attacks on his citizenship, calls for his impeachment, and labeling him a Marxist seem thinly disguised tactics hiding racism and not an accurate understanding of the facts about him and his policies. To simplify, for example, getting the nation out of the Great Recession requires massive government spending to reboot the economy, a plain fact that virtually every economist over the entire political spectrum recognizes. It does not represent socialist or Marxist principles. Yes, there should have been more spending on directly helping people and small businesses rather than the financial sector, but this does not invalidate massive government spending.

Third, the pervasive support for smaller federal government and so many other openly expressed platitudes reveal inconsistencies and outright hypocrisy about what tea party zealots are willing to do to show their true beliefs. I want to see these people proudly professing their commitment to stop participating in social security and Medicare; stop using public schools for their children; stop taking unemployment payments or support for job training; stop using local police and fire departments and public libraries. I want to hear far more support for necessary government functions. Less government does not necessarily equate to better government.

With critical thinking tea party zealots must recognize that it was not excessive government action that caused the Great Recession, bur rather too little government action to stem the greedy actions among banks and other financial institutions. The core problem is not excessive government but corruption of government by private sector corporate and other special interests. Yet I hear very little from this crowd about the exact means they would use to eliminate pervasive corruption of the two-party plutocracy. Their glib talk about freedom and regard for the Constitution is not supported by more than empty rhetoric.

I would have much more respect for this movement if it embraced the nonpartisan effort by Friends of the Article V Convention to make Congress obey the Constitution and give us what the Founders believed would be a necessary option: An Article V Convention of state delegates that could propose constitutional amendments, true reforms that the corrupt Congress will never propose. Without this there are a whole lot of constitutional hypocrites.

Fourth, passionate support for Sarah Palin is appalling. There is no rational basis for such support based on her beliefs, actions and policy positions. She is a blatant numbskull and intellectual midget with damn good looks and speaking skills, but to make her a political leader is disgraceful.

In sum, it is heartening to see so many Americans with genuine anger, frustration and disgust about American politics and government. I share these feelings. Great motivation, but what it is producing seems little more than an avenue for racist views and desire to strengthen the Republican Party, which when it had considerable political power did far more to advance corporate interests and the wealthy than helping ordinary Americans.

We need a populist Second American Revolution. Populism yes; Republicans and Democrats NO! Recognize this or die still suffering with a delusional democracy and longng for the change you have been waiting for and. See the Article V convention option as the constitutionally provided populist path to true reforms. Demand that candidates openly support making Congress obey the Constitution and give us the first Article V convention. An Article V convention would be the way to have a meaningful tea party that honored our Founders.

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About Joel S. Hirschhorn

Formerly full professor Univ. of Wisconsin, Madison, and senior official Congressional Office of Technology Assessment and National Governors Association. Author of four nonfiction books and hundreds of articles.
  • Arch Conservative

    Are you a schizophrenic Joel? i kinda of got the impression that you are. One minute you’re touting the bogus line that only massive government spending can save us from economic ruin. The next you’re calling for constitutional conventions.

    I’m no fan of Palin myself. I think she speands way to much time thinking about her snowmobile and not nearly enough time studying economics to be taken seriously as a presidential candidate. But try this one on for size.

    Fourth, passionate support for Barack Obama is appalling. There is no rational basis for such support based on his beliefs, actions and policy positions. He is a blatant numbskull and intellectual midget with damn good looks and speaking skills, but to make her a political leader is disgraceful.

    Barry reads from a teleprompter a little better and has different plumbing. other than that I don’t see a whole hell a lot of a difference. Oh but he was president of the Harvard Law Review so that makes him qualified to lead this nation right? Tell me again how’s he not an elitst?

  • Ruvy

    Bing,

    When you want to perform surgery on someone’s lines you need to be a bit more careful.

    To wit: He is a blatant numbskull and intellectual midget with damn good looks and speaking skills, but to make her a political leader is disgraceful.

    I realize that you will forgive Palin for not seeing brilliant as soon as you forgive Ted Kennedy for murdering Mary Jo Kopechne. But brilliance is not the real necessary quality for president: toughness, the ability to tough things out, is. Obama has this quality – but so does Palin. The difference is that Palin wants to do good for your country (in spite of her dominionist leanings) and Obama doesn’t. The other quality that is needed n a successful leader is the ability to stick to something and not lazy away. It is here that Palin outshines Obama. From what I’ve seen of the two, Obama tends to knock off, while Palin sticks to things. Finally, there is another quality that a good leader needs – the ability to make sound decisions. Truman had this ability – so does Palin. Obama does not.

    I agree with you that Obama is an élitist who reflects the “we know what is good for you better than you do” mentality at Harvard. Sarah Palin talks the populist talk, but and seems to walk the populist walk, and this is consistent with her beliefs. They are both true to themselves. the point is that of the two, Palin is far better for you, IMHO.

  • Arch Conservative

    It’s personal. It’s always personal with me as it is with millions of other Americans when it come sot politics Ruvy.

    While Obama appears to me to be the most arrogant, narcisssitic, condescending prick ever to get his mug in front of a camera, there’s also something about Palin that irks. Maybe it’s the accent. Maybe it’s the fact that she seems to think everything is so simple. Whatever it is, I don’t like her.

    You’re correct that brilliantness and speaking skills alone does not a good leader make. By all accounts Hitler was a brilliant man who gave great speeches but you’d be hard pressed to find any sane person that’s grateful for Hitler.

    What I want in a president is someone who wakes up every morning with the image of some average Joe he met on the campaign trail still in his mind and thinks “gee…..what can I do today to stay out of that poor bastard’s life…..what kind I do to make sure the douchebags in Congress don’t mess with him today.”

    That’s right …….my main qualification for a president is someone who walks into Congress and immediately thinks….”wow what a bunch of douchebags, better not to turn out like them.”

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Joel,

    This article is a breath of fresh air that we could all use right now.

    :] Thanks!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    If you don’t mind, I’d like to post this article to my Facebook page. Maybe then, Sarah will read it.

  • Joel S. Hirschhorn

    How interesting that the comments thus far focus on the Palin/Obama issue rather than the broader theme of my article about the tea party movement. Nor a word about the idea that the Republican Party may be using the movement for its own purposes, not true reforms of our system.

  • Joel S. Hirschhorn

    To Jeannie Danna: You have my permission to post my article anywhere, and thanks for your kind words.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Joel,

    I have written an article addressing the many of the points that you make here; unfortunately, it is not quite finished.

    If I act like a nut, it seems to be the only way to get a reaction in this society any more.

    I believe this is the reason people such as, Limbaugh, Beck, Schultz, Olbermann, and even Palin are getting the attention of the American people right now.

    :] The tea party does not represent America. Thank you for pointing this fact out!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I have written an article addressing the many of the points that you make here; unfortunately, it is not quite finished.

    and that extra little “the” is why.

    :] Never give up, no matter what.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “What I want in a president is someone who wakes up every morning with the image of some average Joe he met on the campaign trail still in his mind and thinks “gee…..what can I do today to stay out of that poor bastard’s life….”

    Great thought, Archie.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Banging the same old gong yet again I see, Joel. I’m looking forward to the day when you produce an article which doesn’t flog the ridiculous Article V convention. I had hopes for this one, but it went off track about 2/3 of the way through. Up until that point you actually had something halfway interesting to say.

    You also seem fairly fundamentally ignorant of the movement when you say:

    I want to see these people proudly professing their commitment to stop participating in social security and Medicare; stop using public schools for their children; stop taking unemployment payments or support for job training; stop using local police and fire departments and public libraries.

    In fact, many of those in the movement have already taken their kids out of public schools, oppose medicare and social security and want many of the services you mention privatized or severely cut back. To have missed this basic fact abotu the tea partiers suggests you’re just using the movement as a backdrop for your same old agenda.

    Dave

  • Joel S. Hirschhorn

    Gee Dave: any statistic on how many in the tea party movement have taken their kids out of public schools, I doubt it. Saying that many oppose medicare and social security is a whole lot different than actually not taking payments and participating in those programs, especially since so many in the movement appear to be on the older side. My point which you seem to miss is to point out the difference between empty rhetoric and real action. And for people who profess such intense admiration for the US Constitution it certainly seems especially appropriate to have them support using the Article V convention option and making Congress obey the Constitution.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “In fact, many of those in the movement have already taken their kids out of public schools . . .”

    But Dave, many parents don’t have the wherewithal to be able to do that and the other things you suggest. So that kind of narrows down the presumed populist character of the movement. Who are we talking about then?

    Certainly not the presently unemployed or the working poor, whose number, we all know, is growing. A lower middle class perhaps? Even that is doubtful.

    Something doesn’t jibe here. What we have here perhaps are uneducated slobs, and yes, within the lower-income bracket, who have been convinced to vote and think against their own interests – nothing really new in the annals of politics.

    So until the movement becomes crystallized so as to reveal its true form, I’m afraid I can’t think of a more objective assessment.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Thanks, Joel. In a way, you seconded my point.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dave –

    In fact, many of those in the movement have already taken their kids out of public schools, oppose medicare and social security and want many of the services you mention privatized or severely cut back. To have missed this basic fact abotu the tea partiers suggests you’re just using the movement as a backdrop for your same old agenda.

    Dave, please get real. Medicare has a 95-plus percent approval rating among those who have it. Social Security is a crucial safety net for the elderly who wouldn’t have enough money to have food, shelter, and clothing otherwise – AND (until Reagan came along) it was paying for itself.

    Show me a candidate who will publicly run on ending publicly-funded schools, ending Medicare and Social Security, and I’ll show you a candidate who won’t get elected even in the reddest of states.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Joel –

    Great point – and one I’ve made before: there’s a BIG difference between great rhetoric and the real world. The Republicans (and those who support them) simply don’t understand this fact.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Archie, while you are perfectly entitled to your opinions about President Obama, you’re rather missing the point of Joel’s article. In attacking Sarah Palin he is reacting to the Tea Party movement’s idolization of her, which has really nothing to do with the relative footfungusness of the two politicians.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Wow.

    We may as well relegate Pericles’s Funeral Speech to the annals of irrelevance. Indeed, even Winston Churchill fades into insignificance when compared to the to brilliance of Sister Sarah, a true populist for the reactionaries.

    There is of course a perverted kind of brilliance to Sister Sarah’s work – namely, that of turning the idea of populism on its head. And the suckers are buying it.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #20,

    That kind of narrows it down to one.

  • STM

    Lol. Good stuff you two. I’ve seen some ridiculous statements on BC.

    That’s one of the best.

  • zingzing

    “the most significant oration”

    i just coughed up some yellow stuff. i’ve been sick. it was very significant. or at least substantive. but i also had to put it on my hand. not that i would have forgotten what i was trying to get out.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    The phlegm or the oratory?

    Make your meaning clear, man, rather than have us hanging in suspense.

  • doug m

    Ruvy reveals himself to be quite the befuddled thinker. Disagree with his policies, but to think a President doesn’t want to do good for the nation is a massive bit of ignorance. Sounds like the kooks who thought Bush was in on 9/11.

    “Palin sticks to things”

    You mean like being governor of Alaska?

    Don’t mistake having an opinion for having knowledge.

  • STM

    “Palin sticks to things”

    Well, things probably stick to her barbecue … like grilled moose patties.

    We have a saying in Oz, usually used by coaches in rugby teams: “Stick to him like sh.t to a blanket”.

  • STM

    Geez I feel like a nice cup of tea.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    [picks up coffee, sees zing’s comment, puts it down again without drinking]

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    In re Palin, I’m actually with Archie here. There’s definitely something not quite right about her. All politicians are fake to some degree, but Palin seems to have an extra layer of fakery.

    The Oprah interview* with her and Bristol (can’t believe she named her daughter that… snicker) was downright creepy.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    “What I want in a president is someone who wakes up every morning with the image of some average Joe he met on the campaign trail still in his mind and thinks “gee…..what can I do today to stay out of that poor bastard’s life….”

    This is the closest you will ever get to that wish, but you don’t see it.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    Sarah Palin’s preformance from the moment I first watched her step out onto the world stage up until today reminds me of one thing.

    “An act has been drummed into her in order to sell a product.”

    This observation comes from a woman who was indoctrinated by an insurance company in order to sell indemnity policies door to door.

    A little glass ship in a bottle sits on the desk in front of me right now.

    ;} Wouldn’t you agree?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, she’s natural at what she does.

  • justonemom

    I’m not sure how many within the tea party have taken their kids out of government schools but I know plenty of homeschoolers and ALL of them identify with the tea party principles.

  • zingzing

    you know a diverse group of people.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #31,

    Sure they would. That’s rather obvious because liberal education sucks.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    How many faces do you have?

    If you have something to say, then try articulating your thoughts towards the person that you refer to…I can’t make this comment any clearer. You know how all of that liberal education gets in the way here.

    ?

  • Glenn Contrarian

    I’m not sure how many within the tea party have taken their kids out of government schools but I know plenty of homeschoolers and ALL of them identify with the tea party principles.

    That’s strange…because the ones I know are mostly liberals. Probably has more to do with where we live than what our political philosophy might be.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Glenn,

    Do you mean liberals or Tea Party members when you say homeschooling?

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Roger –

    That’s rather obvious because liberal education sucks.

    Our educational system does suck – but not just because it’s ‘liberal’.

    It sucks because:

    – poverty

    – lack of discipline in society, home, and school

    – lack of funding (thanks mostly to conservatives who think that keeping a few tax dollars is more important than educating our kids e.g. the unfunded “No Child Left Behind”)

    – underpaid teachers who wind up buying school supplies for their classes and sometimes have to take second jobs just to support themselves

    – a generation of latchkey kids since no one’s at home to supervise them

    – a teacher’s union that, along with protecting teachers’ rights and jobs as they should, also protects those teachers who should have been fired

    – summer vacations, a relic from the times when kids were needed to help with the harvest. Now when kids return to school in the fall, they spend nearly an entire month relearning what they forgot over the summer.

    In other words, Roger, it’s NOT just the ‘liberals’, but also the conservatives and society as a whole. If you want to fix education, then:

    – enable school districts to weed out poorly-performing teachers

    – PAY our teachers a true living wage.

    – get rid of summer vacation

    – LIBERALLY fund education (and please note the difference between ‘liberal’ and ‘conservative’ funding)

    – school uniforms. YES, school uniforms, because it’s been shown that schools where uniforms are required have fewer fights, better grades, less ‘fashion pressure’ between the students, and the parents spend MUCH less on school clothes.

    – for latchkey kids, ensure that there is something for them to do after school that is supervised by adults until the early evening…and properly FUND these activities

    Roger, it’s not ‘liberal’ or ‘conservative’, though party politics is harming our childrens’ education. Remember, be careful what you wish for. If you let the conservatives have their way, many school districts in red states would no longer teach evolution (“because it’s just a theory!”), would impose mainstream ‘Christianity’ on the children, and – if Rush Limbaugh (the most powerful conservative voice in the country) had his way – go back to segregation.

    Is that really what you want?

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Jeannie –

    Families with kids schooled at home. Thanks.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Glenn,

    Just like Jeannie, you should be able to detect traces of irony. You wouldn’t have to go on this tirade.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Glenn,

    I wasn’t trying to correct you. I was trying to join the discussion…boy it’s cold in here. Feel that?

    :0 Man, I need an agent..Cindy!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    I’m having trouble seeing the hand in front of my face, let alone your, “irony.”

    but, I’ll try! It would help if being liberal wasn’t treated like box office poison… who GAF what rush says anyways.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Some people have trouble with irony at times of vulnerability. We can be insistent that they don’t have the trouble that they do in fact have and we can take every misunderstanding they make personally-even though it is clear they are experiencing difficulty–or we can give them a little reassurance until they can feel trusting. We have a choice about how we handle that.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Cindy,

    You are a good agent! just like 007.:) was that irony? or just great timeing?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ 007

    The name is, Bond, madam…James Bond. :-)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Jeannie and Glenn,

    You’re both missing the point. My comment was specifically directed at “justonemom,” and I clearly indicated that by referencing the comment number.

    Now, if either of you chooses to interpret it any way you please, you’re doing so at your own risk.

    Nuff said.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Glenn,

    You make a great point in #37. The average out-of-pocket expense for teachers in NY is 700 a year. Multiple by 35 and you see why I could scream sometimes at this BS.

    The administration is pretty liberal. Liberal at taking from the children, the teachers, and the system.

    These boneheads want to blame “The liberals.” not you roger..:{

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    NUFF said? We haven’t even Begun…Glenn makes all good points here and when ever he does, then “Oh! let’s move along now, nothing to see here.” Shut the thread, run away, and discredit the commenter!

    sorry you see emotion.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    That’s what they do everywhere, don’t they?

    From FOX all the way to facebook. Senate Republicans, Conservatives , and this new brand of rancid TEA.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Glenn,

    I have to disagree with summer vacation. That is not for the teachers, that’s for the children…they need it.

    Besides the taxpayers moan enough about how much their school taxes cost as it is.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    OK, I drove you all away..even 007!

    :[ bye, see I know irony

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    I’ll be back.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Glenn,

    Please answer this comment about summer vacation, when you have time. and, this question is for Glenn.

    bye

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    My job, today, is to make certain the driveway and the stairs don’t accumulate more snow than I can handle at once. :-)

    (bbl)

  • Mark

    #53 – Don’t you think that you should get a man for that?

    It must be beautiful at your lake today.

  • zingzing

    i think some people have trouble with reading comprehension sometimes…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Sexist remark.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Didn’t mean yours, zing, just the fellow above you.

  • Mark

    sexist!!!

    how dare you…just for that, I’m going to go read a bunch of feminist stuff.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    So am I. But you did refer explicitly to a gender-defined role.

    Shame on you!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Come to think of it, Soviet Union was the first to elide the traditional gender distinctions as regards occupations, for example.

    A positive take, for a change, on socialism.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    zingzing,

    What is this “…”?

    your little code for me?

    I comprehend a lot more than I can convey.

  • Mark

    A real man’s perspective on snow removal — run your monster truck back and forth a few times to pack it down and wait for spring

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    If you are for socialism, then how can you be so against liberalism?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Mark,

    Even a hummer bottoms out in snow.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Glenn,

    This is a generalization:

    - a teacher’s union that, along with protecting teachers’ rights and jobs as they should, also protects those teachers who should have been fired

    Name the Union. Tenure is given to Physicians , Congressmen, Judges,… people in almost all professions. Unions are a good to have. They keep us from slipping back down the scale towards poverty.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Mark knows about those conditions, Jeannie. He used to live in Minneapolis.

    And Jeannie, in case you failed to notice, I am for both, but with reservations.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I should say Minnesota.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    BTW, I still listen to KSJN, Mark, on iTunes, the best all-around classical music station ever.

    No small part of it is of course that my last paramour was from the Twin cities – Irish-Norwegian, I suppose.

    I re-constructed her entire history, down to the minutest detail, in a fictional account. She was so mad afterward she called the cops on me.

    Must have hit the soft spot.

    Something to be said for poetic imagination.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    I’m not in this little click, and, I don’t feel owing to it.

    But you, have always spoken to me until recently when one of ‘em’ started whining about me.

    If I’m too abrupt here then I’m sorry. Isn’t this supposed to be ruff and tumble? Well, when I get ruff, then they all run and hide. Now we are shunning me, like the Amish do to members who don’t fall in lock-step.

    You can stand up to me. I don’t break…

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I’ll read # 68 and get back to ya.
    Paramour? I know what it means. I’m just saying…Paramour?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Jeannie,

    We have no problems that I can see.
    Don’t worry. I’ll stand by you when you need it.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    I have just as much a right to be cynical as any man…that is equality. But I see how some want to treat other men as inferior here because they are gay. That’s bullshit too!

    We have brains all of us, no matter what our backgrounds are. I am mildly autistic and very artistic. not very mild at the moment! I don’t care who knows this fact anymore… I used to hide my differences and now I revel in them.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    I was ripped off! I wish i had been raised today…bye for now, friend :)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Later, Jeannie.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    After I challenge him to a duel over those comments (particularly #58, lol), I will have to admit that I adore Mark. He would never make a sexist remark!

    Sorry the rest of you can’t be perfect. ;-) But he is magical at getting a woman to laugh at herself (particularly via comments like #58).

    (Really, I could use my brother-in-law or my sister with their truck with the plow! One of them usually saves me! I just get done and the first half seems to have 6 inches again. I am caught on a mobius strip of snow and seem to be shoveling into eternity. The lake is white an indiscernible…but I can imagine what you are imagining and yes, it often is breathtakingly beautiful. A sight I will miss.)

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Mark, to be correct #58 should have read as follows:

    sexist!!!

    how dare you…just for that, I’m going to insist that you go read a bunch of feminist stuff.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Not biting.

    You’re gonna have to do better than that.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    huh? who ‘not ever trying to be biting’ old me?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Humor is not going to be of help here.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    One of them usually saves me! I just get done and the first half seems to have 6 inches again.
    Geesh, here six inches, there six inches. Time to call John Edwards to come plow the snow.

    Humor is not going to be of help here.
    Better than crying, Roger. Go listen to the Funny Girl Soundtrack or Lucille Ball’s version of Mame. You’ll feel better.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    so sorry, for the zillonth time. Can we move on or do I have a huge stigma in your eyes now?
    hope not

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Cindy,

    Don’t ever lift your shovel, just walk behind pushing back and forth. It’s a lot easier that way.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Later Jeannie. It’s my time off.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Jeannie, visited your blog this afternoon. Quite refreshing!

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    How could anyone not love Silas?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    Humor is not going to be of help here.

    that’s the only thing that helps sometime.

    I just checked e-mail and when I saw Eric BC, I almost fainted! I thought great, now I’m banned for sure…it was a group mailing. Ha HA see I laugh at me so you can too.

  • Mark

    #81 – …geeze

    and here I thought that that giant ‘A’ tattooed on your forehead stood for ‘Adulterer’.

    Smile, jeannie.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Cindy? Was that in reference to my snow plow comment?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Silas,

    Now, I am going to faint! Thank you!

    You should all listen to this man, he is a genius!

    :]

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Mark,

    No, asshole ha ha

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Silas, that could be in reply to nearly any comment you have ever made. However, It happened to be in reply to your comment #22.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Cindy, Roger, Silas, and mark,

    I’m not looking for pity, just acceptance.

    And I feel it right now, but in an hour or two…so the rollercoaster continues.

    This is why public education cannot be left in the dust. The rich, they, can help their children with any learning disabilities, we need to fund all education!

    jes, I should have started this comment with, ‘My fellow americans!” :]

  • Mark

    Not to worry, jeannie. Pitiless is my middle name.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Silas, what did you read?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Mark,

    I still haven’t written that article titled, “Your an ass and I’m am one too!”

  • Mark

    we could collaborate!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    mArK,

    Isn’t that how you used to spell your name?

  • Mark

    I am legion.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Well I’ve made a real mess now, so I’ll go make super. We are eating crow tonight if any one cares to join…it will be ready in 12.5 minutes!

    :] don’t be late!

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    The story of your mother got to me, Jeannie. I identify with her in many ways. Not to mention the fact that I’ve been on Coumadin for the last 15 years myself — at extremely high doses. I also liked your Open Letter to All Men. Your review of the Health Care Bill was good but I wish you took Max Baucus to task more. That man is a Republican in Democrat’s clothing.

    And, for the record, you don’t need our acceptance. You are who you are if people don’t like it they can skip your comments.

  • m a r k

    crow……yummm

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Silas, the hell with John Edwards. Ick! (winces)

    Jeannie, an hour or two is a long time. :-)

    Jeannie and mArK, if you need any input about being an ass for your article, I will stand by as an expert on the subject.

  • zingzing

    “I still haven’t written that article titled, “Your an ass and I’m am one too!””

    please don’t title it that, jeannie.

  • Baronius

    My problem with this article is the same as with Dave’s recent Tea Party article. Both authors measure the movement against their ideal. Dave wants it to be devoted to Liberty, without political affiliation. Joel wants it to break up the two-party system and implement an Article V Convention. Well, great, but that doesn’t tell me anything about the Tea Party movement. It just tells me things about the authors that every BC regular already knew.

    The Tea Parties will never amount to anything if they’re going to be judged by the preconceived notions of each attendee. But maybe they shouldn’t amount to anything. Maybe they’re just another generic, insubstantial political experience, the equivalent of Hope and Change rallies for people with work ethics. It’s hilarious to watch CNN anchors get upset, though. That’ll never get old.

  • zingzing

    jeannie: “What is this “…”?”

    ellipses.

    “your little code for me?”

    you were certainly one of the people i was referring to, but there were plenty of other offenders as well. it was like everyone thought everyone else was talking about them when they were talking about other people, but you never know, so it’s always just better to let it on out, get me? sigh.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Sorry, Bar (104). We have already changed the subject. We’re not taking any more comments ON the topic. ;-)

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    When I hear about the Tea Party movement, I think of Ross Perot’s Reform Party. They’re both just a flash in the pan. In order for special interests to thrive they require a perpetuation of this lame two party system. People are pissed off. Concerned about the course we are taking as a nation. The underlying problem is that the majority of Americans are just too busy to realize that in our “busy-ness” we are neglecting our civic duty. So the Tea Party movement will steep a little longer and after the GOP makes gains in November it will fizzle away like the Reformers.

    The gridlock paralyzing our Federal Government is unacceptable. We need to come to terms with a simple premise – our political system in its present form is a complete failure. GOP = Grand Obstructionist Plan. They have made it their mission to cut Barack Obama off at the knees. If we are to facilitate real change we need to throw the incumbents out in November regardless of affiliation.

    Folks, each of us can make a difference in our respective Congressional Districts. We can choose to run on our own or we can encourage others to run who are outside the mainstream of Washington. We are not required to elect a Democrat or Republican. Let’s get creative. Throw in a few Communists, Socialists and Libertarians. Vermont did it with Bernie Sanders. Joe Lieberman did it on his own (even though he should be ridden out of DC on a high speed train.) Without a political cataclysm in 2010, we might as well hang it up and join a new world government. We have the power — the question is do wew have the time?

    It’s time to get Nancy Pelosi and the GOP Nancy Boys out of office. Tolstoy’s Cat for Speaker of the House 2010!

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Silas, I adore you so. (Especially since you are a feminist–always my favorite type of male person.) But…you want me to have a position in the govt? Silas? Let’s get together and go watch Avatar a couple more times. ;-)

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Why not, Cindy? At least we’d have an honest person in office with good intentions. I’m boycotting Avatar, Cindy. It’s owned by Rupert Murdoch.

  • m a Rk

    boycott?

    good idea

    BOYCOTT THE 2010 ELECTIONS

  • ma rk

    Nurture the Narrative of Illegitimacy that the Tea Parties are toying with.

    Tired of feeling unrepresented?

    Let’s adjourn to an Article V Convention and come up with structures that work.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Silas,

    Coumadin? Don’t ever let them operate unless enough time passes off of it! That is the main contributing factor of my mom’s comma.
    and I thought I gave Baucas hell, but the story died and got placed on a back shelf, or something.

    I even sent both articles to The ED Show and the White House!

    :]but do they hear me? no!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Cindy,

    Crow was ready in 12.5 minutes! where were you?

    :]do you want me to shovel snow?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    M a Rk,

    That quirky spellings back…I love it

    :] i hope your not all sick of my little smile at the bottom of the page!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    zingzing,

    We will collaborate on that article…sorry I always over-react and
    I hope Clavos comes back to help!

    :0 I am totally overwhelmed now and must leave. bye

  • Baronius

    Silas, in what way has the GOP done wrong? They shouldn’t be promoting policies they see as bad for the country, so if they believe their platform, they’re right to be voting “nay”. And given the Democrats’ numbers in the House and Senate, they couldn’t obstruct a thing. Furthermore, look at the bills they’ve stood against: the current health care reform, and cap-and-trade. How would either of those bills have helped the country? Fiscally? Economically? They should have blocked the second stimulus package.

    I understand the frustration. I get it. But like Joel, who always calls for a Constitutional Convention but won’t say what amendments he wants, you can’t just say you want things different.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Joel is absolutely correct!

    Let’s adjourn to an Article V Convention and come up with structures that work.

    Make this country get it together for an Article V convention?…let’s see if they can get it together to do anything!!!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronius,

    Doing nothing out of fear is not an option anymore…

    :| nite

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Yes, Jeannie. I have the trifecta of blood disorders – Both Protein S and Protein C Deficiencies and the Lupus Antibody. So my blood will clot without warning. I’ve survived 7 pulmonary embolisms (emboli?) and three rounds of DVTs. Things have been under control for a number of years; however, I still have to have the Coumadin levels monitored every 10 – 14 days for the remainder of my unnatural life.

    Insofar as an Article V Convention, I think it is too late. There’s talk of secession in Texas and Alaska. I believe that the Latino majority in California would also support dissolution of the Union if there is no radical change.

    If there is the remotest of lessons to be learned from the Scott Brown victory it is that even residents of Massachusetts have had it with machine politics and gridlock. We didn’t send Senator Brown to Washington to be at the beck and call of McConnell and Boehner. We sent him there to let Washington know that we are fed up and demand radical change now.

    I was in the hospital on Monday for my routine lab work and as usual, I conversed with my caretakers about the health care debate. One of my nurses is frsutrated because the company which operates the hospital is instituting new registration and tracking procedures for patients. She was clear in her greatest concern — the amount of hours spent acounting was cutting in to her time with patient care. She said she went to nursing school to heal the sick not perform accounting procedures. She estimates that under the new “system”, she will spend 75% of her time on paperwork and the remainder on tending to patients — all in the name of corporate profits!

    Folks, capitalism be damned. Health care cannot be for profit. I don’t want to dump the tea in Boston Harbor — I want to distribute it to those who have been denied the opportunity to drink it.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Who is Lucas Davenport?

  • zingzing

    a man of mysteries.

  • zingzing

    baronius: “the equivalent of Hope and Change rallies for people with work ethics”

    which is why so many of these rallies are held on work days…

  • zingzing

    seriously, when obama wins the way he did (the polls were closed, what, two hours when he won?) i dunno how you can claim that he doesn’t have plenty of working people voting for him.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    121 – yes, zing… one from minneapolis, minnesota from john sandford’s prey series.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    zing @ #122: ROTFCM.

  • zingzing

    hrm. i’ve got the “rolling on the floor” bit, but what’s “CM?” “cumming myself?” “cutting myself?” “cat meowing?” “centimeters?” fucking metric system…

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Close. Crapping myself.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “i dunno how you can claim that he doesn’t have plenty of working people voting for him.”

    Because Baronius never lets the facts get in the way of his opinion

  • zingzing

    crapping myself, eh? why did i think of cumming and cutting before that? and what does this say about me?

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    But Dave, many parents don’t have the wherewithal to be able to do that and the other things you suggest. So that kind of narrows down the presumed populist character of the movement. Who are we talking about then?

    I have never claimed this was anything but a middle class movement. It’s entrepreneurs and professionals. People earning above the median income, but not among the super-rich. They’re in the group that feels most threatened by economic decline and possible tax incfreases.

    But the thing is that this is also the class of people who actually turn out to vote. The poor don’t vote in anything like the numbers the middle class does.

    Something doesn’t jibe here. What we have here perhaps are uneducated slobs, and yes, within the lower-income bracket, who have been convinced to vote and think against their own interests – nothing really new in the annals of politics.

    This would be the constituency of the Democratic Party — a party led by wealthy elitists but populated by the poor and working poor who they exploit.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Gee Dave: any statistic on how many in the tea party movement have taken their kids out of public schools, I doubt it.

    I just know that a lot of those I’m in contact with are homeschoolers or have their kids in private school.

    Saying that many oppose medicare and social security is a whole lot different than actually not taking payments and participating in those programs, especially since so many in the movement appear to be on the older side.

    This is a common misconception. Like a lot of others you’re confusing the protesters at the health care townhalls who were often older with the tea party protesters who are generally much younger. Compare videos of the two different sorts of events and you’ll see this pretty clearly.

    My point which you seem to miss is to point out the difference between empty rhetoric and real action. And for people who profess such intense admiration for the US Constitution it certainly seems especially appropriate to have them support using the Article V convention option and making Congress obey the Constitution.

    Congress violates the Constitution in all sorts of ways, but all an Article V convention would do is give hysterical groups a chance to try to actually destroy the Constitution in an irreversible way.

    Dave

  • Baronius

    People with work ethics having free time on work days? Sounds like a recession.

    Of course Obama got working class votes. I didn’t say different. You do remember those rallies, though, right? Yikes. I’ll always respect a “take less from me” rally more than a “give me more” rally. The best is a “take less from everyone” rally. I guess that’s my preconceived notion of what the Tea Party movement could be.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Kind of contradicts JFK’s call to arms, “Ask not . . . “

  • Jordan Richardson

    I think that’s also what Jesus had as the main core of his message: “do as little as possible for your neighbours, for conserving your money and giving only to charity is the path to the Kingdom of Heaven.”

    Sounds about right.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Silas,

    I admire you!

    It takes a lot of courage to stand up to the status quo.

    I’m sure there are plenty of people who are more afraid of losing their lively-hoods, rather than, taking a real chance in their lives so that we can finally end For-Profit-Health-Care; the health system that ties the nurse and doctor to their desks rather than allowing them to do what they set out to do in life must be stopped now!

    It is dragging us all closer to total ruination, and, what really amazes me is the fact that they can get this many people to do their bidding. Also, Senator Max Baucus is still sitting on top of the heap!

    :0 Silas, we should all have your strength. period!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I wish I could revise my comments the morning after making them, but sometimes, “You gotta spit it out rather than obsessing whether it’s perfect.”

    Maybe this is what’s holding us up as a nation? We are all waiting for the perfect solution…

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Like with For-Profit-Health-Care.

    Maybe Jordan’s Canadian HC System isn’t perfect, but it works a hell of a lot better than ours!

    :] Good Morning

  • Baronius

    Jordan, I don’t recall Jesus telling us to take more from others, either. As for disagreeing with JFK, I have to agree with Milton Friedman on this one:

    “Neither half of the [Kennedy] statement expresses a relation between the citizen and his government that is worthy of the ideals of free men in a free society….[the free man] regards government as a means, an instrumentality, neither a grantor of favors or gifts, nor a master or god to be blindly worshipped and served.”

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Jordan,

    Your Jesus comments are starting to crawl under my skin.

    The Jesus that I was forced into learning about was definitely a Socialist.

    This is why I have such little respect for organized religion, whether they believe in GOD or HEEMER.

    We have perverted all faiths in-order to control the masses and create non-taxable wealth.

    They are all hypocrites.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Baronius, Jesus instructed his followers to “give to Caesar what was Caesar’s.” You can make the argument that Jesus didn’t tell us to “take more from others,” but that isn’t really what this is about and you know it. This notion of a society that avoids all taxation and social programs doesn’t seem, at least to me, to equate with the sorts of things Christ stood for.

    He hung around with tax collectors and, I believe at least, would have advocated any and all means for helping the poor. When you believe that your possessions are God’s and not yours, it’s really hard to cling to them as instruments of wealth. It’s also, I think at least, REALLY hard to quantify a giving, compassionate Christian tradition with Milton Friedman-style “economics.”

    But that’s just me.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    JFK was speaking of “country,” Baronius, not of the government. It was an appeal with “the larger community in mind,” an appeal that we take cognizance of the fact that we’re not just atomistic individuals directed mainly by self-interest but part of a larger, human network, that our concept of the individual is myopic if it doesn’t take into account the human community of which the individual is a part.

    This is not of course a direct argument on behalf of taxation and the government’s role, disputed by some, in making the communities thrive – especially since you do happen to believe that such matters should be left at the discretion of the individuals.

    Well, I do disagree. The role of enlightened government ought to be to promote the welfare of all – including the least of us. The government should just be reactive but within limits, proactive as well.

    So in that sense at least, your comment sort of conflicts with JFK’s call – I did say “sort of” – if only in spirit.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    shouldn’t be . . .

  • Baronius

    Baronius, Jesus instructed his followers to “give to Caesar what was Caesar’s.” You can make the argument that Jesus didn’t tell us to “take more from others,” but that isn’t really what this is about and you know it.

    Jordan, I thought that’s exactly what we were talking about. I didn’t mean to pull a rhetorical move there, and I don’t see where I did.

    This notion of a society that avoids all taxation and social programs doesn’t seem, at least to me, to equate with the sorts of things Christ stood for.

    That’s a bit of a strawman. I’m not calling for the elimination of taxation and social programs (at least, I don’t think so). In your next sentence you write,

    He hung around with tax collectors and, I believe at least, would have advocated any and all means for helping the poor.

    And that also seems like a strawman, although you’re taking the position willingly. I don’t see how black/white thinking helps here, where we either do everything or nothing. It leaves me without any idea of what you actually want to do. You could also explore the idea that not every social program helps the poor, or that some plans are better than others.

    When you believe that your possessions are God’s and not yours, it’s really hard to cling to them as instruments of wealth.

    True.

    It’s also, I think at least, REALLY hard to quantify a giving, compassionate Christian tradition with Milton Friedman-style “economics.” But that’s just me.

    I didn’t use the Friedman quote to respond to Jesus, I used it to respond to JFK. Maybe I should have been clearer that I was supporting Friedman on this point.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronius,

    explore the idea that not every social program helps the poor, or that some plans are better than others.

    I’d like to put a match to this big straw man.

    We are destroying the middle class and driving the underprivileged farther down the rabbit hole here aren’t we?

    Hospital closings, schools not funded, employee based health care eliminated by many companies, Child-day-care programs ended forcing single parents back onto the welfare roles, and on and on.

    This is an inconvenient disguise for protecting legacy, if you were to ask me.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronius,

    Allow me to clarify my view of “Legacy” for you.

    We all came to these shores as a nation of immigrants, slaves, and indentured servants. Correct?

    Along the way, some slaughtered and stole all that they now hold so dear to their hearts.

    The fortunes that we see the top 10% hording so ferociously, were born and breed on the backs of all of us.

    Now, this is the year 2010, and the generations now enjoying that Legacy, do-not in my opinion even know were it came from.

    So, demonizing social programs, labor unions and more liberal political views in-order to hold on to it, is vile and immoral.

  • zingzing

    dave, you characterization of the tea parties as “entrepreneurs and professionals… People earning above the median income” who can’t seem to afford the $600 tickets to your tea bagging orgy (i know you’ll say it’s because they didn’t agree with it, but come on… they wanna join a club… any club…) as compared to “the Democratic Party — a party led by wealthy elitists but populated by the poor and working poor who they exploit” is laughable.

    first, if you don’t think the republican party is run by wealthy elitists, you’re a fool. if you don’t think that there are plenty of poor republicans getting fucked by their ignorance every day, you’re a fool.

    you seem to understand politics in this nation only the way you want to, without care for reality. take one look at the tea party movement. it’s not all professionals and entrepreneurs… not even close. and take a look at the democratic party. there are plenty of non-poor people who believe in democratic principles, because for some of us, MONEY ISN’T THE ONLY THING IN THE WORLD.

  • Baronius

    Jeannie, I don’t know what to say. Nearly every word of your last two posts is wrong.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    If it’s entrepreneurs, zing, it’s with a small “e.” And if it’s middle class, I’d say it’s lower-middle class, or at least hamstringed by lack of education. The real entrepreneurs and upper-middle class, especially the professionals, aren’t going to spend their valuable time attending those rallies. They’d be more than content to let the unwashed masses speak for them. And that’s how I assess the “teabaggers” thus far since there’s nothing else to go by than their unarticulated grunt.

    Which isn’t to say Dave is not sincere in how he sees the movement. But as Baronous has aptly pointed out, he sees it strictly in terms of what he would like it to become – which is to say, through rose-colored glasses.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Jeannie addresses the spirit of what’s at stake here, not the letter.

    To fault her for imperfect articulation of her position is not only petty and mean. What in effect you’re doing is falling back on technicality instead of engaging in generous reading.

    In short, it’s a cop-out.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Gee, Baronious,

    You can usually articulate better than this.

    What is not defend-able here?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    God, I hope my article gets published soon…

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronius,

    Please listen to what roger says in his comment #149…now that is a wise man.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    And Zing ain’t that bad after-all…:]

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Don’t give me bad reputation, Jeannie. I don’t claim to be wise or any such thing. But I’m always trying to be honest.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Well he must be busy again, so I’ll return…just like “Whack a Mole.”

    I feel as though it is my duty to shake you all up. Plus, it’s winter and my job doesn’t start until all of the entertainers start summer stock again…

    My job is not glamorous, but, I get to meet many famous celebrities and I consider this an honer in my life.

    It is not always the money that matters, it is the life that we share.

    :] I’ll see ya later, I hope!

  • Baronius

    That’s a skewed interpretation on your part, Roger. I wasn’t faulting Jeannie’s articulation. I meant that she is wrong on nearly every point.

    Obviously, some social programs work better than others. “We” aren’t destroying the middle class or burying the underprivileged; a terrible economy has halted the steady increase in standard of living nationally and internationally. The fortunes of the wealthy were not especially due to the actions of the previous generation. I didn’t criticize, or even mention, labor unions.

    About the only thing Jeannie said in those posts that was correct was that most of us are descendants of immigrants.

  • Baronius

    Or were you intentionally misunderstanding me in order to be provocative, Roger?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I wasn’t being provocative, Baronius.

    What was there not to understand about your rather abrupt response to Jeannie? Now you’re dealing with specific points which, whether we agree on them or not, is another issue and the proper thing to do.

    But you haven’t done this in the first place. You chose to summarily dismiss her.

  • doug m

    Have to agree with zing. Both parties are run by elites and take advantage of the people they get to vote for them to some extent. Dave is either dishonest or ignorant, neither a good trait for an editor

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronius,

    This is false,

    “We” aren’t destroying the middle class or burying the underprivileged; a terrible economy has halted the steady increase in standard of living nationally “

    We have watched helplessly as corporations have locked step with each other in defense of their bottom-lines. I don’t know who’s brilliant idea it was to lay the full time employee off and then bring that same worker back as a part-timer.

    But, this idea was BRILLIANT!

    Now, the same worker no longer has any of the costly benefits afforded their full-time co-workers. No health-care, paid vacation, or 401K with monies also contributed to by the employer.

    Also #2 We have seen the quality of every product we buy, slip farther and farther down the scale.

    I absolutely refuse to buy any prepared food. If we can’t pronounce it, then, we don’t eat it, wear it, sit on it, and now drive it! It’s not allowed in our home.

    Stop replacing our world with SHIT!

    Sorry for this language but reading this
    thread, I know you can all handle it.

    So, then we come to the word game. Tax Tax Tax Tax Tax you have no trouble seeing the little people pay these.

    After all, the wealthier you are the more you actually need government subsidies, especially for that pesky environmental clean-up.

    So, let’s put away those out-dated failed Reaganomics that have failed so miserably.

    “For the last thirty years we have been waiting for the prosperity promised us, if we would just allow you to keep all of your tax money while we are taxed to death.”

    After all, you said you would share it…

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    The middle class is like a brain dead patient on life support awaiting harvesting of organs. Once the “insured” recipients are matched, they’ll remove the organs and dispose of the carcass. Think about it.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Silas,

    Why do they all run away when one cord of truth is struck?

    :[ Maybe it’s just time to eat?

  • jamminsue

    Oh, do I love this! From day 1 of her nomination as VP I have tried to figure out how to say this.

    Fourth, passionate support for Sarah Palin is appalling. There is no rational basis for such support based on her beliefs, actions and policy positions. She is a blatant numbskull and intellectual midget with damn good looks and speaking skills, but to make her a political leader is disgraceful.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Actually, I totally get why Sarah Palin is so attractive to that segment of our society which she represents. There’s plenty of truth in her message of empty rhetoric. It’s the truth of that segment of our society which is incontrovertibly clueless.

    Silas, in what way has the GOP done wrong?

    Where do I begin? Do I start with the simple truth that the GOP Leadership has been infused with a band of fundamentalist freaks who would just as soon return this country to the days before our Civil War?

    This is not the party I joined in 1976. This is not the party of Lincoln or Teddy Roosevelt. It is a right wing fringe machine led by a token black man who has no patriotic passion — sucking the marrow out of his position for his personal gain. He is the antithesis of Barack Obama on every level.

    Those GOP legislators who have achieved seniority are no different. They have no interest in sitting with the other side of the aisle. They see their position as that of obstructionist – to stop Barack Obama at every turn without regard for the rest of us. They use Jesus and the Constitution as their banners while those who blindly follow them don’t realize they’ve been duped by people who take in hoards of cash from the same sources who fund Democrats.

    As I listened to GOP leaders these last two days touting the snowstorms in DC as proof positive that there is no global warming I nearly popped a blood vessel. Baronius, I don’t give a shit where one stands on the issue. What I do care about is leaving an environment that is CLEANER for future generations. That’s a conservative principle. That’s one of Teddy Roosevelt’s life’s passions. How dare Kit Bond, Mitch McConnell and Eric Cantor try to use these snow storms in duping their constituencies! We should be outraged. But then again, I can’t blame the effeminate little shrews in GOP leadership. They know how to play their respective bases — because those bases are nothing but human lemmings who don’t have the collective intellect of a jellyfish.

  • Baronius

    Silas, my question was pretty clear: in what way has the GOP response to President Obama’s agenda been wrong? Leaving aside the politics of religion and whatever else, the three bills that the President has put his weight behind were bad policy. (I’m counting the ARRA, cap-and-trade, and what they call “Obamacare”.) You may not like the GOP leadership, but their votes have been correct.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    GOP response to President Obama’s agenda

    OBSTRUCT AND STALL

    :0 yawn…nite

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronius,

    I left the ball in your court and gave you all night to pick it up; Well, that didn’t happen.

    Perhaps you will read my newest article. Here it is, I linked for you.

    I really am hoping that you have more respect for Jeannie-the author, than you do for Jeannie-the commenter…

    :] Is it possible that you have been left holding a straw man?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronius,

    I can see that typo. I wrote it just for you.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Baronius #143, sorry I’m a little late to the party again.

    I’m not calling for the elimination of taxation and social programs

    But you also aren’t calling for more social programs, are you? Let’s be honest here: would you give more of your tax dollars willingly to effective social programs? No bullshit sidetracks about there being no effective ones or the like, either. It’s just a general, idealistic question that I’m posing.

    I didn’t use the Friedman quote to respond to Jesus, I used it to respond to JFK. Maybe I should have been clearer that I was supporting Friedman on this point.

    No, I understood that. It just seems to me that the bulk of your economic philosophies do, at the very least, borrow heavily from Friedman’s shtick. If I’m wrong, I do apologize.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I’m still awaiting a response to #141, Baronius.

  • Baronius

    I’m so popular today…

    Jeannie, I don’t believe I’ve ever complained about your typos.

    Jordan, I would oppose any new social program on principle, aside from fiscal concerns or matters of efficiency.

    Roger, that Kennedy speech was at least as much about serving the nation as serving society.

  • Jordan Richardson

    I would oppose any new social program on principle

    Why?

  • Jordan Richardson

    And again, I asked you if you would give your tax dollars willingly to an effective social program. Not necessarily a “new” one.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I didn’t make this particular distinction yet. I was only arguing that neither should be identified with “government.”

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Yes, you have become really popular…

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronius,

    Jeannie, I don’t believe I’ve ever complained about your typos.

    That’s your answer? You should be one of those politicians…

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronius,

    I noticed you did not address any of the points that took me so long to type out for you.

    :[ tsk tsk, so disappointing. It’s hard on my nails!

  • Baronius

    Jordan, I just went through this thread trying to reconstruct our conversation. It really drives home the limitations of correspondence by message board.

    So let me start over, this time using two key words in Catholic social teaching. Solidarity (according to Wikipedia) “holds that for Christians it is essential to act in favor of the well being of all, particularly those who are most poor and marginalized from political influence”. Subsidiarity holds “that matters ought to be handled by the smallest, lowest or least centralized competent authority”.

    Ack. Computer about to lock. I’ll post this comment and expand on it soon.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I commend you on the first, Baronius. Have reservations though about the second – not in principle, of course.

    Centralization may be the necessary evil in some cases. For example, we couldn’t have a space program without, say, NASA. It’s arguable that certain types of action – because of their scope – cannot be effective, or sufficiently so, without centralization.

    Thus, Brown vs Board of Education, for instance, is one example of the need for federal legislation; you can’t leave certain matters in the hands of the individual states which are still keen on “separate but equal” doctrine.

  • Baronius

    Subsidiarity doesn’t deny that centralization may be necessary. It calls for the least centralized competent authority. The State of Florida was never going to be able to run a space program. At the time of NASA’s creation, the space program had to be governmental. I don’t know that it still does.

    Both solidarity and subsidiarity are grounded in respect for the person. The principle of solidarity reminds us to care for each person. The principle of subsidiarity honors each person’s freewill. The two concepts go hand-in-hand, one idealistic, the other practical. The one corresponds to charity, the other prudence.

    With these in mind, the question of efficiency isn’t a dodge. It’s a real concern. The US spends comparably to Canada and Great Britain on national health care. We just do bad job at it. Moreover, “Obamacare” would have only added to health care’s centralization and complexity. I feel no moral obligation to make things bigger and worse, which is why guilt never motivated me to support the current health care reform bills.

    I don’t know if any of this answers your recent questions, Jordan. I hope it’s at least a start.

  • Baronius

    Jeannie, I’m not trying to be coy. I was honest when I said that “I don’t know what to say”. It’s not just that you and I disagree; it’s that we approach things so completely differently that we can barely communicate with each other. That’s not an insult, btw. I’m just bowing out.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Jeannie, I’m not trying to be coy.

    Proves what I have suspected for a while, are all my e-mails shared without my knowledge? good point me.

    “Good going Roger, don’t bother me anymore.”

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Does this include Cindy?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    In the words spoken by so many fools, “Slam,dunk.”

    I’m just getting warmed up.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I really don’t know what you’re getting at, Jeannie.

    What’s with “Good going Roger, don’t bother me anymore”? What on earth do you mean?

  • Baronius

    I’m not sure what’s happening here, but I can assure you that Roger and I have never shared emails on any subject.

  • zingzing

    “I would oppose any new social program on principle.”

    that’s a pretty fucked up principle.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Spoken like a champ, zing.

    Wonder why I haven’t picked up on this?

  • Baronius

    Zing, what should government be providing that it’s not already trying to?

  • Mark

    …a chicken in every pot and a hydrogen powered hovercraft in every driveway?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger is not rewriting history with the help of anybody here.

    I asked Roger why it seemed as if people were playing coy games here today,via e-mail.

    Within three minutes of this communication, Baroniuos tells me he is not being “coy” with me.

    But, he is actually very coy,

    When Baronious is brought to any point that he cannot discredit, he walks away, speaks over you as if he wasn’t engaging in a debate with you in the first place, or tells you he doesn’t have enough in-common with you to speak anymore.

    As Baronius puts it, “I am going to bow out.” I find this priggish behaviour extremely annoying

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Can’t change people, Jeannie. But no, me and Baronius did not communicate other than on BC threads, of this you can rest assured.

  • Baronius

    That’s a freaky coincidence, and I wouldn’t be surprised if you don’t believe me.

  • Baronius

    Well, Roger, now you and I have a bond, being the only two people who know for certain that we don’t exchange emails (except for all the BC regulars who know that we barely get along).

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    You’ve got that right, though I’m certain we’d be lesser adversaries were we ever to meet in person.

  • Baronius

    Nope. If we ever met, I’d kick you in the crotch.

    :) You can tell when I’m joking, right?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Of course I do. And I’m certain that you have redeeming qualities which far outweigh your self-presentation as pixels on the screen. I know I do.

    Besides, there’s something to be said for person-to-person communications. More often than not, it keeps both parties honest.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Then you should both move along off this topic, but to discredit me saves both of your faces.

    Like I said already to Baronius, “whenever a cord is struck your gone.”

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Jeannie,

    I’ve told you I will defend you when need be, but please let’s not pick up unnecessary fights. It is waste of energy.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    You can’t make everyone love you, no matter how hard you try. I have to live with it.
    We all should.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    you discredit yourself with your bizarre immature antics

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Bicho,

    What is it with you? Nobody was addressing you here.
    But, you are going to swoop in and leave the last word…

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I certainly know why Joel and all more liberal writers here avoid their own threads, at least when the crowd is allowed to comment in them.