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Time to Tell America to Go to Hell?

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The Sunday (07 March 2010) edition of the Hebrew daily, Ma'ariv, carried this headline, Obama's deputy [Vice President Joseph Biden] brings clear message to Israel: 'Don't attack Iran'"

There was a time, some forty years ago, when such messages would have been conveyed behind closed doors. Indeed, in 1967 and 1973 the Americans tried to bully Israel into eschewing preemptive strikes on the Arabs when clear intelligence indicated an intent to attack and destroy Israel. But the bullying was all done behind closed doors. Now the bullying is open and out in the open, and all the excuse making does not hide the fact that Obama and his sycophants are bullying Israel all the time. This is nothing but a falafel republic, on a lower level even than Lebanon.

When Israel ignored and defied the United States in 1967 it won a stunning victory, conquering the Sinai and liberating Gaza, Judea, Samaria, the Heights of Golan, and of course, unifying Jerusalem. When Israel caved in to American pressure in 1973, it fought desperately for its survival, suffering 2,500 casualties and losing diplomatically everywhere. The world is a cruel place and it stomps on losers. But more to the point, we can clearly see that the American government, no matter what face it puts on to the public to deceive it, is against the State of Israel. Its advice is inevitably a disaster for us.

Nevertheless, the American government cannot be blamed for the stupidity of the Israeli government, or its cowardice in not aggressively protecting the Jewish people from 1972 until today. This is true in spite of the fact that the Americans, through the CFR, the State Department and through the Ford Foundation, have corrupted Israeli institutions from the inside, and a once peaceful and sober society is becoming a land of violent thugs and drunks — just like America, which Israel imitates slavishly. The reason we in Israel cannot blame America is that there is such a thing as free will. One can always say "NO". It is much harder than saying "yes" — it is always harder to do what is right, as opposed to what is easy. But the choice still lies with our leaders, and we Israelis are responsible for the fact that we allow our leaders to commit treason in our name and sacrifice our sons and daughters for "peace", making it such that Israelis literally die to please Americans.

So it is useless for me to wave my fist at the Americans — satisfying as it might be. That is not the route to take.

Before we talk about the route we ought to take, let's deal with the standard chest-pounding whine of the Americans as they purple up in self-righteous anger, screaming, "we give you $3 billion a year in foreign aid!!!"

No, it don't work that way. The American government pays about $3 billion of its taxpayers' money for the privilege of controlling Israel's defense budget. Let's repeat that point to drive it home: THEY ARE BUYING CONTROL. It's kind of like buying the services of a whore. The john enjoys the whore and the whore gets to keep his money. The Americans have bought control, and we get to keep their money. If they can't comprehend that concept, they can screw themselves instead of us for a change. Indeed that appears more and more to be what "hope and change" is all about – Americans screwing themselves over.

Bless them. Now, back to telling the Americans to go to hell.

Up until the year 2000, telling the Americans to go to hell would have been unthinkable. The American dollar (and its T-bills) were viewed as though they possessed the solidity of gold. But in 2000, investors in the dot.com start-ups, having blown up the value of these stocks like kids blow up balloons, panicked. They did not comprehend the exponential growth of information technology, and fearing for their profits, they ran to sell their shares. This panic ruined the companies that were to carry America triumphantly into the 21st century. The failure of these investors to realize that the companies they had invested in needed a few more years to turn out fantastic profits killed the future of the American economy.

And countries produce their way out of recessions. American businessmen, having killed off (temporarily) the engine of growth in the States, were reluctant to allow the economy to really recede because they had nothing to produce. So they started selling snake oil instead of prosperity and recovery. Real estate prices ballooned, credit expenditure ballooned, the packaging of bad mortgages ballooned into a growth industry, and the relaxations of regulations over equity sellers and banks (from the Reagan and Clinton administrations) turned Wall Street into a casino.

After 11 September, the irresponsible spending of the Bush administration on its "war on terror", added to the dangers of the fake prosperity of the Ponzi schemes pushed by bankers and this set the stage for the inevitable crack-up. The crack-up took place in September 2008, and we are still seeing its consequences.

Others have outlined in more detail the sources of this crack-up elsewhere. Suffice it to say that no single policy or single leader can be held solely responsible. So all the screaming about Obama ruining the economy is overdone – he has only continued the failed policies of the Clinton and Bush administrations, and in doing so has worsened the inevitable hell Americans will go through when their dollar does collapse. And that collapse is coming.

American pension funds are hemorrhaging; commercial real estate is on the verge of a severe downturn; the official unemployment rate in the States is 9.7% – half the real number; and to put the nail in the coffin, the "stimulus" packages of unreal dollars may have kept the economy from collapsing immediately. But after the November elections (assuming they actually take place) the effect of the spending of the stimulus money and all the new taxes the Obama administration will attempt to impose to obtain the semblance of fiscal sanity, will drive the American economy over the cliff. The desperate effort to prevent America from being flushed down the toilet will fail.

And down they will go.

The biggest threat the Americans pose to this country is economic. The American economy is staggering like a drunk about to fall off his barstool. Would you listen to a drunk about to fall off his stool in a bar? I certainly wouldn't! So if Joe Biden and a parade of other idiots come here at the bidding of this drunk telling us not to attack Iran, in spite of the existential threat they pose us, should we listen to them? What will the Americans do? Nuke us? Deny us $2.7 billion of their worthless foreign aid?

I don't think our corrupted and bought out leaders, bad as they are, will listen. At least I pray they don't. They've been warned of what Obama might be trying to pull off. And truth of the matter is, except for the drunken Rabin, and that raving egomaniac, Ehud Barak, the American government was always trying to undermine whoever has been prime minister here. I think even the craven prostitutes and traitors in the government (except for Barak) have finally figured out the US government for what it is – a mortal enemy.

So, yes it is time to tell the American government to go to hell. Tehran delenda est! Tehran must be destroyed!

And if our leaders do indeed prove to be too cowardly to do what is necessary – telling the Americans off and attacking Iran in such a way that they will not be able to respond – at least from Iran – we'll have to rise up and "clean the shire" so to speak.

Those of us who rise to "clean the shire" will need the courage of Dov Gruner, one of the oléi hagardóm, brave fighters against the British and Arabs in the pre-State years, who was hung for resisting the illegal rule of the foreigner, and who told the court trying him this:

You came to Palestine because of the commitment you undertook at the behest of all the nations of the world to rectify the greatest wrong caused to any nation in the history of mankind, namely the expulsion of Israel from their land, which transformed them into victims of persecution and incessant slaughter throughout the world. It was this commitment – and this commitment alone – which constituted the legal and moral basis for your presence in this country. But you betrayed it willfully, brutally and with satanic cunning. You turned your commitment into a mere scrap of paper…

You should know this: There is no power in the world that can sever the tie between the Jewish people and their one and only land. Whosoever tries to sever it – his hand will be cut off and the curse of G-d will rest on him forever.

Before he died, he wrote his commander, MenaHem Begin, the following:

There are many schools of thought as to how a Jew should choose his way of life. One way is that of the assimilationists who have renounced their Jewishness. There is also another way, the way of those who call themselves 'Zionists' – the way of negotiation and compromise, as if the existence of a nation were nothing but another transaction. They are not prepared to make any sacrifice, and therefore they have to make concessions and accept compromises. Perhaps this is indeed a means of delaying the end but, in the final analysis, it leads to the ghetto. And let us not forget this: in the ghetto of Warsaw alone, too, there were five hundred thousand Jews.

The only way that seems, to my mind, to be right, is the way of the irgún tzvai leumí [Etze"l], the way of courage and daring without renouncing a single inch of our homeland. When political negotiations prove futile, one must be prepared to fight for our homeland and our freedom. Without them the very existence of out nation is jeopardized, so fight we must with all possible means. This is the only way left to our people in their hour of decision: to stand on our rights, to be ready to fight, even if for some of us this way leads to the gallows…

The people in place of the cowardly leaders thrown out will have to strike Iran preemptively and end the existence of the terrorist PA. Hopefully before the first Iranian missiles hit our cities. It’s us or them.

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About Ruvy

Hi!! Thanks for coming to my article! I was raised in Brooklyn, was graduated from the City University of New York in 1978 with a BA in political science and public administration there. I lived in Minnesota for a number of years. There I managed restaurants and wrote stories. We moved with our children family to Israel where we now reside. My work can be found at Ruvy's Roost, Jewish Indy,, and on Facebook under my full name, Reuven Kossover
  • zingzing

    “I think even the craven prostitutes and traitors in the government (except for Barak) have finally figured out the US government for what it is – a mortal enemy.

    So, yes it is time to tell the American government to go to hell. Tehran delenda est! Tehran must be destroyed!”

    did you skip a paragraph there? nothing about that transition makes sense. of course, any time you bring up genocide, i have a hard time following. disturbing, to say the least.

    “And if our leaders do indeed prove to be too cowardly to do what is necessary – telling the Americans off and attacking Iran in such a way that they will not be able to respond – at least from Iran – we’ll have to rise up and “clean the shire” so to speak.”

    clean the shire… that sounds like masturbation, or some sort of tolkien/heavy metal fantasy lyric. then again, you do often remind me of some tattooed metalhead, sticking his tongue out and barking “KILL EM ALL!!!!” while whipping out the air guitar for some wicked runs or something like that.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    And all that neatly coinciding with Biden’s visit to Israel, during which he said:

    “Progress occurs in the Middle East when everyone knows there is simply no space between the United States and Israel.”

    Apparently, the Iranian situation has become the centerpiece of US diplomacy, and the idea of reinstating peace-talks with the Palestinians was put on the back burner.

    What of course Ruvy doesn’t like is that the statement of US policy, as articulated by Biden, ties Israel’s hand to act independently and proactively.

    So in a sense, this article is as predictable as the sun rising tomorrow morning.

    And we all thought we were up for some kind of surprise.

  • Ruvy

    zing,

    “clean the shire” was a term I pulled from Tolkien – I think he used “rising of the shire”, but “cleaning the shire” seemed more appropot to me. Garbage collection seems to leave much to be desired in this country at times.

    So, yes it is time to tell the American government to go to hell. Tehran delenda est! Tehran must be destroyed!”

    did you skip a paragraph there? nothing about that transition makes sense.

    The transition was weak at that point. I grant you that. It was getting difficult to write when I composed those lines. I was tired. I could have added another paragraph to make the article read more smoothly.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I didn’t need the transition, zing or Ruvy. I simply filled in the missing pieces from Ruvy’s past writings.

  • Ruvy

    Roger,

    If a statement from a fool like Biden does indeed tie the hands of the “leaders” on the kiryá in Jerusalem, it will indeed be time for a “rising of the shire” to clean out the Shabak/Securitate, and the bought off American garbage at the top of this country. The hanging rope will be too good for them.

    This is an existential threat to us and is too important to be left to some incompetent CFR putz in the White House, much less his idiot of a deputy.

    I would much prefer that the Persian people toppled the assholes in Tehran themselves. It would make things so much easier. More actions like these could bring the rapid overthrow of the brutal scum running Persia. But I have the feeling that they might take too long.

    The only hopeful sign I see is that the Russkis pulled out their boys from Persia. That happened just before an Israeli attack several times before, and may be a sign of good news.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I understand the issues, Ruvy.

    What I don’t know is whether Biden’s statement is an official statement of US policy or merely exercise in the politics of appeasement.

  • zingzing

    yeah, in trying to figure it out, i eventually caught on that the third paragraph on the first page is the idea that sticks between those two… so while it’s not necessary, an additional transition would be helpful, i guess.

    that’s hilarious that it’s actually tolkien. did you know that burzum (the black metal/hilarious douche who murdered a guitarist from a competing band and went to jail for 15 years–look him up, he’s ridiculous) used to be known as uruk-hai, a “menacing super-race of orcs” in lord of the rings? no? neither did i. just a little bit of trivia there for you.

    “I would much prefer that the Persian people toppled the assholes in Tehran themselves.”

    didn’t you see last year’s riots as a clue that they might want to do that? those people are being held prisoner over there. if you want to take out iran’s government, i don’t think there are too many people who would disagree with you (although our little experiment in iraq should put you off that idea). as much as the iranian people themselves want the iranian gov’t gone, i’d bet they’d really look down on being nuked as well. it would make you the bad guys, not the iranians. nuking them would only bring iran (and the rest of the muslim world) together, and you’d be the next to be nuked.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    It was “cleansing of the Shire”.

    Ruvy, nobody ‘wins’ a war. Robert E. Lee once said the only thing half so terrible as a battle lost…is a battle won.

    You know I do have some historical understanding of the Jewish plight and position…but as hateful as the concept is to you, the reality of the situation is that Israel still needs the goodwill of the west. If you nuke Iran, you verify the opinions of rabid anti-semites all through the world and build worldwide sympathy for the Muslims, and it can only end badly for you.

    Learn the lessons of history, friend. Violence wasn’t always the answer.

  • zingzing

    “cleansing” would have been particularly nasty in this context.

  • zingzing

    or maybe more honest…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Give Ruvy credit. He probably knew better than that.

  • zingzing

    still food for thought… and at least he had to think about those implications as well.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Here’a a link to “Tolkien Politics” for those who might be interested, a pdf file.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    didn’t you see last year’s riots as a clue that they might want to do that? those people are being held prisoner over there.

    Duh…. Of course I did! The very last thing I want to see is this country dumping nukes anywhere. And that may not be the needed solution to stop the mullahs. But we are up against a clock. The mullahs know that, too. It doesn’t appear that the people will be able to overthrow these bastards.

    You must have missed the link I put in to show you that somebody might be trying to use subterfuge to bring down the regime there.

    To make it all clear to you, if the world shuts off Persia’s supply of refined oil, they are screwed. And then there can be the possibility of a popular revolt the Basiji will not be able to suppress.
    But that revolt has to take place in time. If not, we have to strike to insure our own survival.

    Glenn,

    We no longer need your goodwill. That is the point of this article. Your power, your economic power, is fading as I type this comment. You can always send in your boys from Iraq along with the European fleet off Lebanon. But then we will use nukes to take you and the Syrians and anybody else out. And that will be just fine with me. Go back and read the words of Dov Gruner. That is the de minimis stance of most Israelis with respect to foreign intervention in our affairs.

    Finally, and get this straight in your head, the G-d of Israel does not lie. In any such battle, we will win, because we have an Ally you do not have. Go read Ezekiel 38 and 39; go read the last chapter of Zechariah. That is G-d warning you of your future if you try to destroy us. To deny that, you have to deny your belief in G-d. I now you are too smart to do that.

    In the end, it is not an issue of which king can throw how many tanks on the field or how many missiles in the sky; it is an issue of faith in G-d. Without that, I’d still be selling Whopper sandwiches at BK in St. Paul – if the store is still open….

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    For “the cleansing of the shire,” see page 15 in the above-linked document.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Ruvy,

    Stunning!

    Let’s see, you just called us thugs, drunks, and whores, johns, and losers.

    You told us that Obama owns a bunch of fawning parasites….blessed us! and then told us all to go to hell.

    Although, you made many very good points here, Ruvy, as far as I’m concerned.

    I fully agree with you that Wall Street is a casino and that Bush is the reason we are in this much trouble today.

    However, the same individuals that hide behind the wall of secrecy provided by being shareholders are the same people pulling the strings in your country and ours. Don’t just blame Obama for your woes; right now, he’s fighting all of them.

    Please allow me to point out here, that if I wanted to start calling everyone names in my articles, then I would have to back those names up with current links.

    So now, you call me a sycophant? I’d rather you return to cheerleader, if you don’t mind.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    What is that link? My link scanner detected an error.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Let’s see if this works: Tolkien and Politics.

    If not, I’ll have to check with acrobat.com to eliminate the glitch.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Yes, Jeannie, there’s a glitch and I’m have to get it fixed. Thanks for letting me know.

  • Clavos

    However, the same individuals that hide behind the wall of secrecy provided by being shareholders are the same people pulling the strings in your country and ours.

    What the hell? Where’s my copy of that memo? For that matter, where the hell are my strings to pull???

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Your welcome Roger.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Until I get this glitch fixed, you can download the pdf file from the following site. However, you’d have to register.

    Registration is free, and so is the future use of their documents.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    And…is the big guy talking to me?

    I believe those strings might be in your pocket. ????

    I didn’t say that all shareholders were guilty, did I?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Not that your not a big guy, Roger. Please don’t misunderstand me.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Jeannie,

    It’s rather obvious from the context that you were addressing Clavos.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I just wanted to make absolutely certain that my words don’t snowball into an avalanche!

    :)

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    You’re all wrong. It was the scouring of the Shire.

    It is the episode at the end of The Lord of the Rings in which the hobbits, who have hitherto been sheltered from the evils of the outside world, come under the dictatorial thrall of Saruman, who embarks on a program of destructive industrialisation.

    On the return of Frodo and his companions, Saruman is overthrown and work begins to restore the ravaged Shire to its former bucolic state.

    Here is the Merriam-Webster set of definitions for the word ‘scour’.

    With that in mind, and whether you’re on board with Ruvy’s views or not, it is a very good metaphor.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/realist Realist

    Reb Ruvy

    Did you miss the fatwa issued against terror bombers by Dr. Muhammad Tahir ul-Qadri, one of Pakistan’s most prominent clerics(http://aawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=3&id=20162)?

    “…he believes that his fatwa represents a complete theological rebuttal of every argument used by Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations.” Even Al-Jazeera covered it! (http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2010/03/2010321321826236.html)

    This edict would include Hamas and Fatah and Hezbollah. The Muslim world is not made up exclusively of terrorists, or we would all have suffered huge terrorist attacks by now. The few that have happened are relatively minor to what could happen. I’m sure they are getting tired of this as the rest of us are, for it solves nothing.

    Israel has a right to exist, and in peace, but not if they are going to act like Hitler’s Germany. Israel isn’t big enough to withstand the world without us backing them, so saner heads need to speak out. Telling the US to go to hell -while maybe satisfying- is NOT the answer to Israels issues with the Muslims. Negotiating their issues in good faith is.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    So now, you call me a sycophant? I’d rather you return to cheerleader, if you don’t mind.

    Jeannie, you’re still a cheerleader. You are not high enough in any line of authority to rate being an assistant to the secretary of the helper to a sycophant, let alone a full rank sycophant. Now Dave Nalle, on the other hand might have been up in that general level once. But he had the good sense to get the hell out of Dodge. Now he sits with his beady eyes looking through the gun-sights of whatever weapon he is carrying these days, looking out for coyotes – both two legged and four legged.

    Let’s see, you just called us thugs, drunks, and whores, johns, and losers.

    Very perceptive, Jeannie. But I didn’t call you whores – that fine designation was reserved for the idiots on the kiryá (Government Hill) who got bought out by the johns of the American government.

    But even so, the names do not apply to all of you personally. And certainly not those commenting here. I’m not that mean, vicious or petty. But I did grow up in Noo Yawk, and I saw a lot of the above wandering the concrete canyons of what was once the capital of the world. And your culture – what used to be our culture – has gravitated towards these scum as heroes to be worshiped. That stinks!

    But the big point here is that I condemned your government. Not Obama – successive administrations running from Harry Truman to Lyndon Johnson to Richard Nixon to Ronald Reagan to Bush to Clinton, to the Shrub, and now also Obama. Both for their foreign policies towards Israel – not one of these guys could be called a “friend” – just enemies by different levels and degrees, with Reagan having a real emotional tie to Israel – but held hostage by the CFR that runs your gov’mint, nevertheless – but also for the way they screwed you over, or allowed your corporate thugs to screw you over.

    That is why your power is fading, why we can tell you to go to hell, and, by the way, why you cannot afford what you so deserve, a good system of universal, affordable health care.

    As for putting blame – the blame falls on the CFR and its associates world-wide. They are the éminences grises behind the curtain, making so many millions of lives miserable.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Not so according to the link I provided earlier, and I quote:

    Once Sharkey is deposed Sam the new Mayor
    (and a gardener) plants the seed given to him by Galadriel and renewal begins:
    “an air of richness and growth, and a gleam of beauty beyond that of mortal summers that flicker and pass upon this Middle-earth. All the children born or begotten in that year, and there were many, were fair to see and strong, and most of them had a rich golden hair that had before been rare amongst Hobbits. The fruit was so plentiful that young hobbits very nearly bathed in
    strawberries and cream. And no one was ill, and everyone was pleased, except those who had to mow the grass.”

    Anna Bramwell has pointed out what she sees as some of the political undertones:
    “The cleansing of the Shire (carried out, one notes, by the radical working class Sam Gamgee, while the paternalist Tory Frodo waits for death
    and resurrection) can be interpreted in several ways. The trees that were cut down are replanted again, the dark, smoky mills are demolished. The bearers of exploitative capitalism are chased out by the sword and the fist.”6

    Note that, unlike Shippey she sees the exploiters as capitalist rather than socialist in nature.

    ———————–
    See the middle paragraph.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Wow, I didn’t know, Jeannie, that Ruvy was being flattering.

    Obviously, a sycophant is a higher-grade pay than mere cheerleader.

    He must have your well-being in mind, so take it easy on him, will ya?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    And here’s a definition from Merriam-Webster’s:

    Main Entry: sy·co·phant
    Pronunciation: \-f?nt also -?fant\
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Latin sycophanta slanderer, swindler, from Greek sykophant?s slanderer, from sykon fig + phainein to show — more at fancy

    Date: 1575
    : a servile self-seeking flatterer
    synonyms see parasite

    ———————————–

    There you go. You can always count on Ruvy’s flattery.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    What a guy!!!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I love him! I don’t know why , but I do…

    :)Later BC

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Did you miss the fatwa issued against terror bombers by Dr. Muhammad Tahir ul-Qadri, one of Pakistan’s most prominent clerics?

    I most certainly did not! It is Muslim clerics like Dr. ul-Qadri with whom we Jews can negotiate a real peace deal – for the Qur’an tracks the Tana”kh in terms of whom it grants control over the Land of Israel, and real peace can be negotiated using the primary works of both faiths as the underlying common pool of understanding; and using as a starting point the 1919 agreement between the Protector of Makka and Medina and Haim Weizmann of the World Zionist Organization, as well as the Resolutions on Palestine adopted by the Allied powers in Italy on 24-25 April 1920, resolutions that were to be included in the Treaty of Sèvres, but which were instead adopted as Charter of Mandate Palestine. The aforementioned Resolutions, together with the Feisal – Weitzmann agreement, form the basis in international law of our claim to this land. And now, our military can back that claim up.

    It is precisely with such Muslims that I and the group I work with maintain contact.

    Hamas and the PLO are branches of the enemies of the ul-Qadri Muslim, namely the ikhwan muslimia (Muslim Brotherhood) a daughter of the Wahhabi sect of “Islam” ruling in Arabia right now.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    So must God, Jeannie. But God’s patience is surely wearing thin.

  • zingzing

    jesus, ruvy… why can’t you be like #35 more often? (i’ll admit it’s not as much fun as the raving lunatic you often come across as, but it is still refreshing.)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    There is hope, then.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    But then again, zinger, who will play the part of a raving maniac.

    Every village needs its village idiot, no?

    And that’s in spite of Hiilary’s proposition about the importance of the village, or perhaps because of it.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Roger (@ #30):

    No, ‘The Scouring of the Shire‘ is the title of the chapter which covers these events.

    Tolkien always rejected suggestions that The Lord of the Rings was allegorical or had some deeper meaning. While that wasn’t entirely true – the cosy Shire does represent his love of the English countryside and its people, and ‘The Scouring’ is in part a reaction to the industrialization he abhorred – to try and attach a more significant political subtext to it, as your commentators are doing, is a bit comical.

    Similarly, you seem to be trying to ascribe motives to Ruvy which I just don’t see in this piece.

    Had he actually hit on it, the word ‘scouring’ – if you look at the Merriam-Webster definition of a thorough cleansing, a purging, and especially the ‘archaic’ definition of a routing-out of enemies, which is most assuredly part of the meaning Tolkien intended – his metaphor would have been most apt. I do get it.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    DD,

    Had he actually hit on it, the word ‘scouring’ – if you look at the Merriam-Webster definition of a thorough cleansing, a purging, and especially the ‘archaic’ definition of a routing-out of enemies, which is most assuredly part of the meaning Tolkien intended – his metaphor would have been most apt. I do get it

    I would have used the term “scouring of the shire” had I not been in a hurry for a term, and had I felt I had time to look it up. I relied on my memory, which while good, is not perfect. The term didn’t sound quite right, but it was all I could remember. My mind at the time was on finding appropriate links to some of my statements. I assure you, that when this goes into Ruvy’s Roost and elsewhere, the term “scouring of the shire” will be used. Thank you for the lesson in remembering to use reference works….

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    No problem, Dreadful. I’ll check the original.

    But what motives might you speak of?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, in that case you’re vindicated, Ruvy, on account of literal accuracy.

    But you still have to answer zing’s compliment of not playing a maniac for a change.

    What obtained? Did you have a change of heart?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    While we’re on Tolkien, according to what I remember, he was a linguistics expert, the kind of fellow I can very much identify with, and he spent much time inventing languages for his works. And I agree with DD that he was not working on some political analogy at all. He was a storyteller – the storytellers in his tale were probably the ones in the his works on Middle Earth that he identified with most.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    We no longer need your goodwill. That is the point of this article. Your power, your economic power, is fading as I type this comment.

    I wasn’t referring to America. I was referring to the West as a whole. Without our logistical support, the Muslim countries – united by their suddenly-justified hatred of Israel thanks to your use of nukes – would basically lay siege and choke your country to death.

    Finally, and get this straight in your head, the G-d of Israel does not lie. In any such battle, we will win, because we have an Ally you do not have.

    Then apparently you don’t have FAITH in God…because if you truly believe that you will win in any battle because He is on your side, then you have NO REASON TO FEAR an attack by other countries, now do you?

    If you truly have faith in God, then you have no need to attack and murder hundreds of thousands of innocent women, children, and infants that would die along with the men who hat you. Do you really, truly want the blood of infants on your hands?

    But if you truly fear an attack by the Iranians, if you truly fear that they will lay waste to your land if you don’t attack them first…then you do not have the faith you professed.

    I’m sorry to put things in these terms, Ruvy, but the path you’re wanting to tread leads to a truly terrible evil. And remember – I’m not trinitarian. I believe in the same God that you do.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    C.S Lewis, in fact, the literary dean of Oxford, was Tolkien’s disciple.

    To go beyond, it was Tolkien who was influential in C.S. Lewis’s conversion (to Christianity).

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Story tellers often use analogy or allegory.

    Dante’s Commedia is a prime example, so your argument would have to be buttressed other than by mere fact of referring.

    Or think of Christ’s parables, for instance, however much you may hate the idea.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    But you still have to answer zing’s compliment of not playing a maniac for a change. What obtained? Did you have a change of heart?

    What you see at the very end of this article – the very last link – and in comment #35 – are my ambitions for this country. And my ambitions are peaceful and they have always been peaceful. I want to live in peace with my Arab neighbors, to go to their weddings and feasts, have them come to ours, and work with them on plantings and harvests.

    I dislike this shit about Area “A”, Area “B” and Area “C”; or of having a wall stretch across my land like a scar. All this is wrong. It does not add to peace and certainly does not bring prosperity.

    What you see most of the other time is me forced to react to the violence around me, as well as the stupidity.

    As for telling the American government to go to hell, this is long overdue. As for treating those who spit on us as trash to be beaten to a pulp, this too is long overdue. But that is reacting to a vicious, violent and murderous world. And I will not be nice when I see the honor of my people impugned and spit upon by fools and louts. I would be overjoyed to see the scum who push the lies of Israel Apartheid Week beaten bloody and taught never to insult Jews on campus – or anywhere else.

    But that is not what I wish to be. That is what the world around me requires me to be.

    When I push my own ideas, they are those of the peace-maker, of the man who makes peace between a man and his fellow. Unfortunately, the world is not interested in peace between a man and his fellow – it is interested in sex and murder and encouraging both.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Shazbot!

    It WAS ‘scouring’ and not ‘cleansing’. Man…now I gotta go hand in my know-a-whole-lot-about-Tolkien card.

    But I do agree with Ruvy that he was not making a political analogy…but I do believe probably he chose ‘west’ vs. ‘east’ because these would have been more palatable to the book-buying public than if he’d made the ‘east’ heroic and the ‘west’ dastardly.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “Unfortunately, the world is not interested in peace between a man and his fellow.”

    I have to agree with you on that, despite all the claims to the contrary.

    Thus far, we’re only gesturing, but we’re surely a long way from realizing this bit of wisdom.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Ruvy,

    This is one of the nicest threads I have ever seen and it’s yours!

    :)the cheerleader…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Ruvy’s definitely coming around.

    He’s not any kind of monster we’ve imagined him to be.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Responding to comment #45:

    Don’t get the idea that I’m pushing nuclear attack, Glenn. The mullah’s bomb can be crippled in other ways. Now, do me a big favor, use your imagination and intelligence, and don’t press me for those other ways – hopefully you can figure out why….

  • John Wilson

    I haven’t trusted the Israelis since the attack on USS Liberty.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I haven’t trusted the Israelis since the attack on USS Liberty.

    The problem John, is not whether you trust us, but that we have trusted you. The American gov’t. cannot be relied upon to keep its word and cannot be trusted at all. Don’t believe me – ask the President of Georgia. Ask Jonathan Pollard. Ask the veterans of the South Vietnamese army. Ask the Cambodians. Ask the Poles.

    I could go on for a page and a half of who your government has betrayed, aside from us in Israel. The only good thing about Obama is that he doesn’t betray us at all. He hates us and lets us know it every chance he gets. Honest enemies are far easier to deal with than phoney friends.

    That is why I supported the SOB for president.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    John –

    This retired Navy man has to stick with Ruvy on the matter of the USS Liberty. We don’t know the whole story and never will. Personally I suspect that it was just a stupid tragic incident caused by a few idiots (maybe from Israel, and maybe not), that the U.S government did know what happened, and – just like with the Scorpion that I strongly suspect the Soviets intentionally sunk – decided it was best to keep the details from the public, to downplay everything in order to get past a tragedy caused by a few idiots that might otherwise have resulted in misery for many millions.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    The only good thing about Obama is that he doesn’t betray us at all. He hates us and lets us know it every chance he gets.

    From Ruvy’s link:

    ‘Biden said that “the substance and timing of the announcement, particularly with the launching of proximity talks, is precisely the kind of step that undermines the trust we need right now and runs counter to the constructive discussions that I’ve had here in Israel.”‘

    Isn’t it amazing how where some people hear ‘Can’t we all just get along?’ others hear ‘Die die die you horrible scumbags’?

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    I’m sincerely glad you’re not advocating the use of a nuke, and I hope you’re not advocating any kind of overt military strike. As the Mossad recently proved in Dubai, there are indeed many other ways, and I heartily agree that it’s better if discussion of those ways isn’t transmitted by bits and bytes.

    Have a smile, friend! Not everyone is against you in this world.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Thanks, Dreadful.

    Now you’re making it imperative that I read the whole spiel. I surely was hoping not having have to and still comment intelligently.

    Thanks, but no thanks.

  • zingzing

    doc–that is kinda crazy. seems like biden (not obama, but…) was saying that it was pretty stupid to make that move at that time. it shows absolutely no hate, only frustration.

    if that’s the best you’ve got, you’ve got a lot more convincing to do. pretty damn weak.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Ruvy, I have purposely held back choosing to reread your treatise several times before I make my informed commentary. Ruvy, I respect you. I wish I had half the passion you possess. I agree that the United States should stay out of the affairs of Israel, period. The problem is that governments use cash and economies as political leverage against innocent people on both sides of the sea. Which leads me to my own thoughts.

    George Bernard Shaw once said:
    If history repeats itself, and the unexpected always happens, how incapable must Man be of learning from experience.

    Therein lies the problem, Ruvy. For centuries Man has not learned from past mistakes and repeats history because parents instill the hatred into their offspring. The basis for this never ending cycle is usually driven by religious fervor based in ancient writings. We teach our children to perpetuate the racial and religious divides. We instill the preconceived notions which were instilled in us onto our progeny. It’s got to stop.

    I don’t know if there is a magic bullet to bring the violence and mistrust to an end in your part of the world. I refuse to believe that all of Arab peoples, Muslims in particular, are inherently evil. Just as I refuse to believe that all Jews are money grubbing, sinister merchants who wish to control the world through finance. I do believe that Arabs and Jews share more common genealogy than their human brothers and sisters in America.

    It starts again with rational education, Ruvy. If we could just provide a solid, value driven education to the next 2 or 3 generations we will be laying the foundation for a world which can live in tolerance and peace. It means sacrifice on our part. It requires eloquent patience and a willingness to stay silent in hopes of finding common ground in our opposition. We cannot correct the mistakes of thousands of years in one fell swoop. We can, however, lay the groundwork for this generation of students. We can rationally present the cases of all sides and teach our young that it is their charge to forge ahead with a new societal paradigm.

    We live in a new era of information. Communication is instantaneous. Shepherds in the desert have equal access to information as a student in Tel Aviv. In this homogenization of humanity — cultures are endangered, religions morphing and previous political machinations no longer apply. We seem desperate to insure that our respective cultures survive this upheaval. What we don’t seem to understand is that the homogenization of societies is not the murder of custom and culture but an amalgam of the past and present. The new age which is upon us is like an alloy. It is a mixture of several ingredients melted together creating a stronger fabric. Sure, there is slag that will fall away in the process and perhaps that is what scares us most.

    The greatest act of love we can give our children is the opportunity to live a life free of the old ideas and hatreds. We need to bring the youth of all cultures together to share, discuss and decide the course they want for their lives. And, finally, we need to make our children secure in knowing that they are not required to perpetuate that which existed but are encouraged to find their own way in achieving a lasting peace.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    doc–that is kinda crazy. seems like biden (not obama, but…) was saying that it was pretty stupid to make that move at that time. it shows absolutely no hate, only frustration. if that’s the best you’ve got, you’ve got a lot more convincing to do. pretty damn weak.

    That’s not “the best I’ve got” – merely the latest – in 60 years of attempting to undermine the State. Go through my articles, zing, all 130 or so of them, to see the rest.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I agree that the United States should stay out of the affairs of Israel, period. The problem is that governments use cash and economies as political leverage against innocent people on both sides of the sea.

    That is the reason, Silas, I chose to outline the fact that the dollar – the American dollar – is on the verge of collapse in this article. The leverage of the American government will largely be diminished, and that of the Europeans will follow.

    Since the European and American governments have been hogtying this country for decades, those ropes will break – and we will actually have the opportunity to pursue the ideas you speak of so well above.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Doc Dreadful,

    Isn’t it amazing how where some people hear ‘Can’t we all just get along?’ others hear ‘Die die die you horrible scumbags’?

    What you were hearing was the frustration of a man whose job it is to make ‘die, you horrible scumbags’ look like ‘can’t we all jut get along?’ That has been the game of deceit that the British played here for decades till we kicked them out – and that the Americans have been playing as well.

    Most of us here are onto that game. The “scouring of the shire” is to get rid of those kapos at the top who would cooperate with this game of murdering us off in the name of “peace”.

    This is how we will get “peace”. Read talkback #11 at that article.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Ah, Ruvy. Perhaps a further Lord of the Rings allusion is called for. I’m thinking of when the duplicitous Saruman sues for peace after the victory of the Rohirrim at Helm’s Deep and the fall of Isengard. King Theoden responds:

    “We will have peace. Yes, we will have peace, when you and all your works have perished – and the works of your dark master to whom you would deliver us. You are a liar, Saruman, and a corrupter of men’s hearts. You hold out your hand to me, and i perceive only a finger of the claw of Mordor.”

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Ruvy, I read #11 and as much as it disturbs me I think you are right especially where you said:
    Obviously we will have to dismantle the PA we set up – and probably kill most of its leaders. We will have to destroy the Arab hate and terror infra-structure we allowed to develop. But at the same time, we need to realize that Arabs who have jobs, education and a level of freedom that no Egyptian or Syrian can even imagine, will make for a powerful Israel.

    The more I study the closer I come to the conclusion that the political events of the last 100 years have not been motivated by religion or ideology at all. Everything has been motivated by greed. Religion was used as the opiate to drive the capitalist machine. The greed of corporations and their leaders who financed Richard M. Nixon is a classic example. They saw opening relations with Communist China as an opportunity to intrude on the Chinese way of life and open up an incredible market for profits. What happened was that the Nixon Administration failed to understand one simple fact — the Chinese are far more intelligent than Americans.

  • geryhostone

    Everything dynamic and very positively!

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Silas,

    You are so right about greed being a motivator for many events – particularly in this region. But you cannot discount religious fanaticism either. Religious fanaticism can be a force for good – check out the reign of King Ashoka in Hindustan – but almost always, in the hands of people controlled by the yétzer har’á, the evil inclination, it is a force for terrible evil.

    This was especially so with the Nazis, who built their ideas on religious concepts (not Christianity, which they despised) and remains so in their spiritual allies/inheritors, the Wahhabi, and most particularly in their later wrinkle in the íkhwan muslimía, the qútbi. The PLO and Hamas, both draw their motivating fuel from the the íkhwan muslimía and the qútbi, which is why they are so similar in their goal of extirpating Jews from éretz yisraél in violation of the Qur’an they pretend to believe in.

    Both greed and religious fanaticism has played a role in creating the Arab terror structure in Israel. The Arabs are motivated by greed and murderousness in their erroneous interpretation of jihád (as it applies to the Land and Children of Israel); the Israeli enablers of these terroristic scum (read here, the Labor party, Kadima, the left wing of Likud, and Meretz) are motivated by greed and hatred of Judaism and religious Jews.

    When you see the world through these lenses of understanding, and comprehend the Torah’s statement that the Children of Israel shall stand apart from mankind, you can easily begin to see my viewpoint on events here.

    Then you also see the need for the “scouring of the shire”, Tolkien’s truly apt phrase for what needs to occur here in Israel.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Here, in this Arutz Sheva newsflash, we see the nature of the interference of the United States in our internal affairs. From the text:

    The United States opposes a Jewish presence in portions of the capital liberated by Israel during the 1967 Six-Day War and is currently pressuring the Netanyahu government to surrender most of Jerusalem to the Fatah-led Palestinian Authority.

    It wasn’t enough that the United State pressured Netanyahu to allow a freeze on construction in Judea and Samaria, and in addition (as evidenced by his behavior), pressured Netanyahu to allow Bark to be the American bully-boy in destroying homes and synagogues here. Now its flunkies insist we have no right to build in our own capital as well?

    MK NaHman Shai, the Kadima kapo kissing the Americans’ ass and getting their shit on his lips, deserves the hanging rope for treason. Surrender of sovereignty over Jerusalem is treason according to Israeli Criminal Law. His own words convict him.

    Biden should go back to the swamps of DC and shut the fuck up (or better yet, monitor the bribes given DC zoning inspectors), and the American interfering bastards should be told to go to hell, and not to pollute OUR land with their presence. Whatever the case, they deserve no apologies from our leaders for building in our own capital.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Hi all!! I republished this article at my own blog-site, Ruvy’s Roost. The differences are slight but they do change the tone of the article some. Go check it out and leave comments if you have time.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Yes Ruvy, I agree with you that we should not be dictating orders to your people as to where you can build new homes for your people. I am also very disappointed in Vice President Biden’s’ choice of words. While watching Morning Joe on MSNBC this morning, I saw how he said, condemned, this was an inflammatory word for sure.
    I also am not happy with your choice of words in #69, but this is your thread and I can’t tell you how or what to say.
    Here is a clip showing, President Peres speaking on Joe’s show. I thought perhaps it might interest you if you haven’t watched it already.

    :) I’m not comfortable debating this subject with you because I don’t know all of the facts. I just wanted to give you these video clips.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Apparently, “Big Mouth Biden” has managed to grab headlines in the press here with his condemnation of the proposed building of 1,600 housing units in the Ramat Shlomo neighborhood of Jerusalem. Neither the Americans nor the UN have any right to tell us what to do in our own capital. But this didn’t stop either of the scumbags representing both from condemning the proposed construction in Jerusalem.

    It is for precisely this kind of unwarranted interference in our affairs that the Americans and the UN, as well as the EU and Russia, all need to be told to go to hell, shut the fuck up, and get lost.

    They all push “negotiations” with murderers and terrorists who honor women who kill innocent civilians with the intent of killing innocent civilians. The terrorists need to be killed and the foreigners told to take a hike and take all their shit with them as they leave.

    As for the EU, the building they built in J-lem was built without the proper permits – and should be torn down with D9’s to teach the arrogant bastards not to violate OUR law in OUR land.

    It may turn out that naddering Netanyahu will cave in to pressure and delay or cancel the building permits in Ramat Shlomo. He is already covering his ass to do this according to the Ynetnews report referenced above, claiming he was “blindsided”. We in Israel are expected to accept his with a straight face.

    Apparently, I will have to write an article on “scouring the shire”.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Thank you for the video links, Jeannie. Go to Arutz Sheva for a reasonably accurate account of events here. Then you can go to Haaretz, the Jerusalem Post, or Ynetnews to read the bullshit you are supposed to believe.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Good morning, Ruvy!

    I left a comment for you in your roost and it was polite. However, your comments are…

    :)have a great day!

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I realize that you may not like how I expressed myself in comment #69, Jeannie, but I remind you of what I wrote in comment #48:

    What you see most of the other time is me forced to react to the violence around me, as well as the stupidity.

    As for telling the American government to go to hell, this is long overdue. As for treating those who spit on us as trash to be beaten to a pulp, this too is long overdue. But that is reacting to a vicious, violent and murderous world. And I will not be nice when I see the honor of my people impugned and spit upon by fools and louts. I would be overjoyed to see the scum who push the lies of Israel Apartheid Week beaten bloody and taught never to insult Jews on campus – or anywhere else.

    But that is not what I wish to be. That is what the world around me requires me to be.

    This stands. I’d rather talk of peace, and plans to make people’s lives better. But, I cannot be silent in the face of the evil around me – whether it be from the Americans, the Arabs, or fellow Israelis.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Thank you, Jeannie. It has been moderated and published.

    Everyone else is welcome to stop by as well….

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Ruvy,

    Wouldn’t it be a good idea if they didn’t revert to this practice of not speaking directly with all of the people involved in this conflict?

    “Top government officials and have gone back to the pre Oslo Agreements way of “speaking” to Israel.” -Hana Levi Julian

    :) I have to run away from this computer before it swallows me up! I’ll be back here later, Ruvy. Thanks for publishing my comment.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Reading this article by Ted Belman should give a clearer idea of what is probably coming down the pike. And frankly, it looks like war to me, and it may get pretty ugly.

    From Belman’s article:

    Pursuant to Article 33, of the United Nations Charter, members, Israel included, who are “parties to any dispute, the continuance of which is likely to endanger the maintenance of international peace and security, shall, first of all, seek a solution by negotiation, enquiry, mediation, conciliation, arbitration, judicial settlement, resort to regional agencies or arrangements, or other peaceful means of their own choice” and the Security Council “shall, when it deems necessary, call upon the parties to settle their dispute by such means.”

    Israel could well be ordered to submit to arbitration or judicial settlement. Perhaps this is the reason PM Netanyahu keeps reaffirming Israel’s desire to negotiate.

    The Security Council has the “primary responsibility for the maintenance of international peace and security”. In fact, Article 37 provides, “If the Security Council deems that the continuance of the dispute is in fact likely to endanger the maintenance of international peace and security, it shall decide whether to take action under Article 36 or to recommend such terms of settlement as it may consider appropriate.” Chapter VII gives the Security Council the right to enforce these recommendations.

    You can be sure that the Arab League is well aware of these provisions. It is highly doubtful that the US will veto any such move.

    The EU is already on board. European Union foreign policy chief, Javier Solana, told a British audience in London on Saturday,

    “After a fixed deadline, a UN Security Council resolution should proclaim the adoption of the two-state solution,”
    “It would accept the Palestinian state as a full member of the UN, and set a calendar for implementation. It would mandate the resolution of other remaining territorial disputes and legitimize the end of claims.”

    Read the whole article through to get an idea of why we need to “scour the shire”.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    “After a fixed deadline, a UN Security Council resolution should proclaim the adoption of the two-state solution,”
    “It would accept the Palestinian state as a full member of the UN, and set a calendar for implementation. It would mandate the resolution of other remaining territorial disputes and legitimize the end of claims.”

    Why can’t there be two States? I’m not trying to be coy, Ruvy. I really would like to know why you all can’t live side by side?

    I am fifty-two now and I have waited almost my entire life to see peace there. You all deserve a better life without the talk of war, don’t you?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Briefly: there are already two states. The 78% of Mandate Palestine the British refused to allow Jews to settle in at all – today this is the Kingdom of Jordan. The remaining 22% of the former Mandate is now Israel.

    Properly speaking, all of Jordan belongs to us, but we are estopped from claiming it because we signed a peace treaty with the ruler of the territory.

    Go back to the fourth page of this article, Jeannie and re-read the words of Dov Gruner to the British court that sentenced him to hang. The British perfidy in wrecking what was supposed to be a large and spacious Jewish mandate here with full Jewish sovereignty is now being stuck in our faces by the assholes at the UN, and the Jew-haters in your government.

    I don’t give a damn what bullshit excuses any Brit gives today for their perfidy and betrayal; their betrayal of the Jewish people did not just cost a few thousand square miles of land – it cost about 1 million Jewish lives, Jews who may have escaped the jaws of the Nazi death camps.

    The Arabs have 22 states. We have one. And we are keeping every square millimeter of the one we have now, from the Jordan to the sea. The Arabs can live in peace in the State of Israel with us. But this is our land. Full stop.

  • Mark

    Why should anyone believe that the establishment of another State would improve Israel’s security? How would it solve the underlying ‘right of return’ problem, for example? Who can bargain that claim away legitimately — Hamas or the PA?

    Representatives of secular ‘rationalism’ have been pretty ineffective at coming up with solutions, and Ruvy’s argument that the situation requires an appeal to some shared faith is enticing…but how is it practical?

  • cannonshop

    Ruvy, ’tis not the damn shareholders (I know, I own shares), it’s the boards of directors, whom are supposed to represent the interests of the shareholders, but don’t.

    (Kind of like how our elected representatives are supposed to represent OUR interests as citizens, and don’t, or your elected government doing the same.)

    A dirty, but nevertheless cunning politician once stated “All Politics is local Politics”-that representative or seat-filler with the open bribe-palm keeps getting back into office, Neh? There’s only so far that process can be sustained by stuffing ballot-boxes (as that rumanian fella with the name I can’t remember how to spell-the guy who was removed from office by gunfire in ’95, can attest.)

    Still, I have to agree on one point: Israel needs to assert that it is self-sufficient and can live without the dubious kindness of strangers.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #81,

    For one thing, it provide the Palestinians with a sense of legitimacy.

    True, the “right to return” problem wouldn’t go away, at least not immediately. But in a couple of generations, with the aid of education and lessons to be drawn from some sense of co-operation and peaceful co-existence, who know?

    It just might do the trick.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Cannon,

    Have got something for you.

    Check out the entire show on the future of NASA.

    It’s worth listening to, even if you have to pay for the single transmission.

  • Mark

    #83 Why should anyone believe that this new sense of legitimacy would lead to the era of peaceful co-existence that you point to? You mean that the people will be further ghettoized and ‘taught’ the ways of peace? By the UN, I suppose?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Sense of legitimacy is important.

    Once attained, people have been known to attend to the business of living.

  • cannonshop

    #86 Business of Living, or the business of killing each other in a more formalized, “Legitimate” fashion?

    ’cause it tends to go either way, depending on whether and how much emotional baggage is involved, as well as whether or not the party of the first part is getting funding and arms and egged on attacking the party of the second part, and vice-versa.

    Within that region, you’ve got ethnic and clan hatreds going back Millenia, the Turks had to deal with it, the British had to deal with it, Israel has to deal with it. I honestly don’t think ANY solution offered from outside the dispute is going to end it, either-it’s not LIKE when Sadat met with Carter-that was just political horse trading on an issue that the Egyptians COULD get away with, as the strongest (Then) member of the Pan-Arab League, with no ‘dog’ in the fight internal to Israel.

    Solutions there have to come from within-the Palestinians have to organize and get leadership that can actually control the Militants, or no deal will work (as we’re seeing right bloody now with the Palestinian Authority).

    It’s a problem because you’ve got all these disparate groups (PFLP, PLO, Hamas, Fatah, Black September, Abu Nidal, PFLPG, Hizb-Allah (means “Party of God”), plus the Iranians with their special ops people, PLUS the Syrians and THEIR puppets…), none of which really trusts the others (as witnessed in the ‘peaceful’ transition from FATAH to Hamas leadership in the Palestinian Authority zones), none of whom can make a deal that sticks Because of the others, so there’s no way the Israelis can really make a treaty with any of them that binds ALL of them-at least, not to the extent that Israel is considered to BE bound by the international community-no matter WHAT way Israel jumps, someone is going to break the agreement, or be seen as breaking it (same thing, really).

    They tried “Legitimizing” Yassir Arafat-and he lost control of the militants almost before the ink on Dayton was dry. “outside help” isn’t helping, and “Legitimacy” pretty much extends to the limit an individual Clan or Tribal elder can control his young men.

    Which, watching the international news, ain’t very far at all.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Cannonshop,

    Ruvy, ’tis not the damn shareholders (I know, I own shares), it’s the boards of directors, whom are supposed to represent the interests of the shareholders, but don’t. (Kind of like how our elected representatives are supposed to represent OUR interests as citizens, and don’t, or your elected government doing the same.)

    That is why the day will come when it is necessary to “scour the shire”. The board of incompetent governors gets kicked out and the board of competent governors gets in installed. It’s going to be ugly – like the deposition of Ceausecu and the Securitate in Romania – but it will be necessary.

    It’s a problem because you’ve got all these disparate groups (PFLP, PLO, Hamas, Fatah, Black September, Abu Nidal, PFLPG, Hizb-Allah (means “Party of God”), plus the Iranians with their special ops people, PLUS the Syrians and THEIR puppets…)

    All of the above minus HizbAllah are just big or little mirrors of the íkhwan muslimía and the qutbi, and while they all distrust each other, they all have the same goal – our deaths. There is no negotiating with them at all. They are all butchers, and we are the steers. Therefore, we must kill them all (some steers are longhorns….)

    Once that is done with, then we can formally extend our law into Judea and Samaria and grant the remaining Arabs rights as toshvé ger, foreign residents – in other words granting them full civil rights and partial political rights. With time, as we can trust them more to live without committing rebellion or terror, we can grant them full political rights and full citizenship in the State of Israel.

    HizbAllah (and Lebanon and Syra) is a separate issue, as they are basically the proxies of the Shi’a mullahs in Persia. If the mullah’s bomb can be neutralized, we can afford to go to war against Lebanon and Syria with the goal of destroying – and I mean annihilating – HizbAllah, annihilating Damascus, and murdering off the clan that has ruled Syria for decades. This is what the Syrians fear, and this is what we should do. Annexing southern Lebanon up to the Litani River will give us a simple border to guard.

    If the mullah’s bomb cannot be neutralized, all bets are off. Whatever happens here will be very bloody indeed, and it is very likely that the valleys around me will be filled with refugees from Ramat Gan and Tel Aviv.

    For one thing, it provide the Palestinians with a sense of legitimacy.

    Roger,

    The “Palestinians” who need a sense of legitimacy that bad can go to Jordan to live. That whole country was stolen from us by the British in 1922. If the little Bedouin there keeps depriving the Arabs from here of their rights, eventually he will suffer the fate of his grand-uncle in Iraq – and maybe we can take back that land too, with G-d’s help.

    I follow the words of Dov Gruner – both with what to do and how to regard those Jews stupid enough to think they can compromise their patrimony away.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    We all know that the Arabs have been complicit in the Palestinian problem. They use it merely as political football, but when push comes to shove, they like the situation as is.

  • zingzing

    ruvy: “That’s not “the best I’ve got” – merely the latest – in 60 years of attempting to undermine the State.”

    i wasn’t aware that obama had been in office for 60 years. it kinda goes against your point that “obama hates us and let’s it know it every chance he gets” when, a) that wasn’t obama, and b) biden was making a very valid point. it showed absolutely no hatred.

    if you’ve got proof that obama hates you, i’d really like to see it. but posting that junk as proof is just ridiculous.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    zing,

    Do me the favor of reading comments 69 & 72 – and go to the links provided in them as well. In other words, read them thoroughly.

    TIA,
    Ruvy

  • zingzing

    ruvy, 69 and 72 are just more of the same, (not obama, not wrong on the fact that it’s pretty moronic timing,) excepting the part about the us “pressuring the Netanyahu government to surrender most of Jerusalem to the Fatah-led Palestinian Authority,” which is a pretty ridiculous claim. i’d like to see that backed up before i believe it.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    In the mean-time, some American Jews are realizing the real advantages of coming home“recessioning in Israel”. Reading this made my day. Here’s why:

    “It was never a problem to ask my boss if I could come in late or leave early,” recalls 27-year-old Rachael Freedman who interned at a Tel Aviv architecture firm after losing her job in 2008. “It’s definitely more relaxed.”

    Since returning, Freedman has been hired back by her old firm, but Israel also left an indelible mark on her.

    “I think about it every day,” said Freedman, who considers herself a secular Jew. “I wake up thinking of Israel, at work I think about it, and hope to be there in the nearer future. There is just something about it that feels like home.”

  • http://woodnotwood.blogspot.com A Geek Girl

    @34 jeannie danna
    I know. Me too. I think it’s the passion, maybe the desire to be understood? Gotta love it.

    Ruvy, I’m not going to read through all of these comments. I have to have time to write as well.

    I just wanted to give you my point of view as a former soldier. I hope I’m not taking what you’re saying out of context, but this has been my experience.

    I trained side by side with Israeli soldiers during my time in the service and I know how well trained they were. We were a peace time Army when I joined, a war time Army when I left. The US and Israel have always had a mutually beneficial relationship. You talked here of protecting Jews, but as an American soldier I can only tell you that we were never trained to consider religion when dealing with allies (unless of course there is a genocide threat).

    The Israeli soldiers I trained with talked often about hostility from other countries who resented the US bond with Israel, that they felt that US backing gave Israel a free hand to bully other countries. I’m not saying that’s true or not true, just relating what they pointed out to me as a major cause of tension.

    I think that if the US just backed Israel up without international input it would only heighten an already tense situation. I think it’s important to put the issue before the international community. I believe that it’s going to take a united front to resolve these issues firmly.

    What I hear you saying is that you think Israel should just chuck their oldest (and sometimes only) Ally and go it alone. I have to tell you, buddy. I just don’t think that’s a good idea. I have a dear friend from the UK living there with her children. My thoughts are always of them when something happens.

    I hope that patience and wisdom will prevail. You should know that Iran isn’t just an Israeli problem. They’ve made themselves an international problem. And I have no doubt that they will be dealt with.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Geek Girl –

    That’s a very, very good point – that if the U.S. shows unconditional support of Israel, then that significantly damages our ability to bring the other side to the table. One can’t be an honest broker if one gives unconditional support to only one side.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    The announcement of the construction of 1,600 housing units in Ramat Shlomo in Jerusalem has ballooned into a bigger story than I imagined it would be.

    All during last night (yesterday afternoon in the west) the PA “president”(his term expired already – there is no legitimate leader of the PA – he is nothing but a US backed puppet on a string) Mahmoud Abbas was in communication with the Arab league, telling them that he was pissed off that the Israelis dared to build in their own capital. He said he wanted to pull out of the “proximity” talks that Biden had supposedly come to inaugurate.

    So, the Arab League announced cancellation of the at present with a position to be presented to the world later this month.

    I almost fell off my chair laughing when I read this:

    Al-Thani (the Qatari prime minister) condemned Israel’s plan to expand construction around Jerusalem and said that a clear Arab response must be put forth. He added that Israel’s position is placing the Arab League’s decisions at risk.

    “We demand peace with Israel, and demand an immediate peaceful resolution. This is not a warning but an advice for the leaders of Israel,” he said.
    [Bold print mine; Ruvy]

    These are the same putzes who, after we beat the shit out of Nasser, when it got together to endorse the “three no’s” in that stinkhole on the Nile, Khartoum.

    A summary from Wikipedia:

    “The Khartoum Resolution of September 1, 1967 was issued at the conclusion of an Arab League summit in the wake of the Six-Day War. The resolution, which formed a basis of the policies of these governments toward Israel until the 1973 Yom Kippur War, called for: a continued state of belligerency with Israel; ending the Arab oil boycott declared during the Six-Day War; an end to the North Yemen Civil War; and economic assistance for Egypt and Jordan. It is famous for containing (in the third paragraph) what became known as the ‘Three ‘No’s': ‘no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with it.'”

    From where I sit, when these assholes come on their hands and knees and beg for peace(they don’t need to use the prayer rugs – those they can spare for Allah) – that is the time we should consider peace with them. Until then, they are just murderous trash. They don’t deserve peace.

    This is a developing story. It may be that Netanyahu found a way to tell the United States to go to hell after all. Or it may be that he’ll go crawling after his “ally”, Obama and beg himself to allow himself to be whipsawed by the Arabs and Obama and the Europeans. I have to watch and see what happens before writing further in the topic. In the meantime, I recommend you all read thoroughly Ted Belman’s article on all this. The link to it is found at comment #78.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    OY! I just read the comment I posted. My English is going down the drain, right next to the American economy!!

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Geek Girl,

    Thank you for stopping by with your perceptions and observations. They’re most welcome and appreciated.

    First of all, you cannot be an “honest broker” in negotiations between enemies and an ally to one side at the same time. It just don’t work. Somebody gets betrayed when that is attempted.

    Second,

    I want to get across to you that during your experience with the Israelis you trained with, you learned their perceptions. And remember that they are average kids, interested in the same things most average kids are interested in – sex, entertainment, sex, their careers, sex. By the way, did I mention they were interested in sex?. Politics is something they leave to the liars in the suits – just like most of mankind does.

    These kids perceive that America is an ally of Israel. That perception just does not square with history, or the facts – but these kids are not taught history – or the facts. History is too controversial – too political – a subject to really get taught here properly.

    America is not an ally of Israel. Yet, there they were – there you were – comrades in arms, no?

    No.

    You represented the volunteer soldiers of what was then the imperial power on the planet. They were the local draftees of a small country at war that desperately wants peace. Remember? These kids are interested in sex, entertainment and their careers, and not necessarily in that order.

    The army is one big pain in the ass to them – a DI with a stopwatch and a whistle, telling them to wake up, press their uniforms, get dressed and fall in line in three minutes – or do gazillions of push-ups. The army is taking apart and putting your weapon together in 60 seconds or less – or doing gazillions of push-ups. The army is dodging that enemy bullet – or doing gazillions of push-ups in heaven – or worse, being crippled, and not being able to do push-ups at all. The army is a lifetime of nightmares from blowing people to bits at close range.

    War is hell. And the army, for these kids, is a flicker of hell. And some of them get singed real bad. But I don’t have to tell you that. You know all too well.

    So, in this country, we are desperate for peace. You can bet your life on it.

    American bullshit artists are all there to make “die, you fucking kike” sound like, “can’t we all just get along?” And plenty of court Jews who delude themselves that they are looked on as important by the goyim are there to help the Americans or other “helpers” to our death and betrayal.

    And plenty of Israelis just want to live in a world where we can all get along – including me. But I don’t buy the bullshit. I look ugly and unpleasant facts in the face.

    THAT’S REALITY, AND IT SURE DIFFERS FROM THE PERCEPTIONS OF OUR BOYS IN UNIFORM, AND FROM WHAT YOU GET TAUGHT AS WELL.

    I’m not being nasty to you, Geek Girl. I’m being honest – brutally honest.

    You see, Americans, by and large, are top shelf people. I know. I used to be one. Do you seriously think I would waste my time here if I didn’t know that to be true? But your government is a mortal enemy of my country, and by extension, my people. And the record of how the American government has treated this country bears out that statement of plain truth.

    You don’t have to tell me “but you gotta understand”. I do understand! I go where the evidence leads me, just like a good bloodhound. And the evidence has led me to these unhappy conclusions.

    Anyway, I gotta run. I’ve probably missed the bus, so I’ll have to hitch a ride into J-lem to do Sabbath shopping and other errands….

    It’s a pleasure hearing from you.

    Shabbat Shalom!
    Ruvy

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “You see, Americans, by and large, are top shelf people. I know. I used to be one. Do you seriously think I would waste my time here if I didn’t know that to be true?”

    That’s cute, Ruvy. I would have never believed you could say something like that.

    “You represented the volunteer soldiers of what was then the imperial power on the planet. They were the local draftees of a small country at war that desperately wants peace. Remember? These kids are interested in sex, entertainment and their careers, and not necessarily in that order.”

    There is hope, then, and the young share the right kind of sentiment. All we’ve got to do is declare all governments null and void.
    Or to say the least, we don’t have to do anybody’s bidding.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Ruvy,

    Today,I am going to be brutaly honest with you.

    I gotta run. I’ve probably missed the bus, so I’ll have to hitch a ride into J-lem to do Sabbath shopping and other errands….

    Why do you bother observing the Sabbath? It’s not doing you much good at this point, when all that seems to come forth from your lips is hatred for your fellow man.

    :|I’ll see you when you get back from shopping.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    You are top shelf in my eyes if that means anything to you. :)

  • http://soldieroftruth.wordpress.com Braden

    Ruvy, I think Israel should assert themselves. I think the U.S. should let Israel defend itself and do its own thing. They don’t need our supervision. I think we should be friends them. But keep in mind that you’re a tiny tiny place in the middle of a massive Arab world. The U.S. shouldn’t hold you back from defending yourself, but I wouldn’t want to go it alone if you went to war with Iran.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Why do you bother observing the Sabbath? It’s not doing you much good at this point, when all that seems to come forth from your lips is hatred for your fellow man.

    Jeannie, what’s bothering you is that I say truths that are hard to hear – truths that contradict the lies you think are true. That’s not hatred.

    But it is the typical response of liberals to truths they don’t like. They call it hate speech. And that is precisely what you are doing here.

    If I came to your house and told you that you had no right to plant petunias in your front yard – you’d kick me the hell out. And I would deserve it, too. Well, “Big Mouth” Biden did precisely that in Jerusalem. WHO THE FUCK DOES HE THINK HE IS? He didn’t fight for this country, that’s for sure. And he ain’t no damned friend either! He’s a liar.

    But I don’t talk about killing your leaders, or think seriously about killing them either. That is what the Arabs do. That’s hatred. They called Condaleezza Rice a “nigger monkey” and it won’t be too long before that is what they start to say about Obama, too. Arabs in the Middle East, where they hold the whip hand, are nasty racists, not to mention practitioners of sexual slavery, pedophilia, discrimination on a mass basis, AND apartheid. What makes that despicable is that in their eyes, it’s all right; and it’s all legal.

    They rape Christian women with impunity in the Arab controlled parts of Israel, they discriminate against Christian businesses, they kill Christians – and the Christians are so scared that instead of pointing the finger at the real villains, they blame us!

    The call us the “little satan” – and they call YOU the “big satan” – that’s hate speech.

    Those are ugly truths that are hard to hear. But they are true, nonetheless.

    That is not hatred Jeannie. That is a series of hard truths that you would rather not hear. So, don’t waggle your finger at me, saying I am full of hatred for my fellow man.

    Read the hard truth – and absorb it. before it absorbs you.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    And Jeannie – don’t forget who said that by and large Americans are top-shelf people. That’s not hatred either.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    OH, #102 explains your dissertation on the other thread. Now, he’s an expert on your affairs also?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    It’s soo funny that he can handle this level of vulgarity from you, but when I made one typo he freaked! Hypocrisy lives.:)

    I called you on your BS to Geek Girl. Here you were soo pleasant yesterday, what happened?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Do you have something of substance to say, Jeannie?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I was so happy with you yesterday, that I went out and bought a box of Matzos. In fact, I’m eating one right now and getting crumbs all over my keyboard. I don’t want to fight with you, so I’ll leave this alone now.

    :( bye

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I just said it.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Jeannie,

    Evidently, you have nothing of substance to say. That’s okay. I just wanted to confirm what I thought.

    Enjoy your matzót. Usually, they taste good with butter and salt on them…. And thank you for thinking of me. I appreciate it.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I have plenty of substance to say, Ruvy. Like are you for FDR and against Obama or against both the new deal and the new deal?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I ate this one with nothing on it, but they are really good dipped in warm honey and cinnamon. Have you ever tried them like that?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Sorry for bugging you, today. I’ll see you again later or early in the morning, if you are around. Bye for now…

  • zingzing

    “Biden did precisely that in Jerusalem.”

    no he didn’t. he said it was ridiculously stupid timing. israel knows that doing that would set back peace talks. so on the eve of peace talks, they go and do it? dumb. doesn’t make it look like israel gives a shit about peace. and yet, i think a lot of israelis would prefer peace. but they had to go and do this…

    “WHO THE FUCK DOES HE THINK HE IS? He didn’t fight for this country, that’s for sure. And he ain’t no damned friend either! He’s a liar.”

    he’s the guy representing the us in peace talks between two idiots. he’s trying to do good for everyone in the region. and who would want to be friends with someone who goes and makes this stupid blunder? but does he turn his back? no.

    if you can’t see why he’d be pissed off at this, then you’re either far too up your own ass to even open your eyes, or you’re lying through your teeth.

    your reaction to this is completely silly, and everyone can see that.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I have plenty of substance to say, Ruvy. Like are you for FDR and against Obama or against both the new deal and the new deal?

    Your question is answered at this article, where it should be, at comment #76.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Response to comment #114:

    Uh huh, that’s interesting….

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Braden,

    Your write, The U.S. shouldn’t hold you back from defending yourself, but I wouldn’t want to go it alone if you went to war with Iran. I don’t quite understand what you mean by that sentence – it reads like something is missing from it. Could you please explain?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    zing,

    This article is for you to read. From its text:

    Knesset Speaker Reuven Rivlin (Likud) said Thursday he was “very worried” by the applause that a Tel Aviv University audience gave Vice President Joe Biden when he expressed his condemnation of construction in the Ramat Shlomo neighborhood of Jerusalem. “I am concerned about the erosion of the red lines we set for ourselves and the lessening of the understanding of Israel’s strategic needs, about which there can be no compromise,”

    and,

    Knesset Member Uri Ariel said that “Biden blatantly interfered in the internal affairs of Israel. And the Israelis who applauded Biden’s words do not understand that by doing so they are damaging Israel’s image as an independent Zionist state.”

    I will note that “big mouth Biden” also claimed that building apartments in Ramat Shlomo endangered the lives of American soldiers in Iraq. This was the headline of both Yediot AHronot and Ma’ariv (I saw them in Jerusalem today at newsstands), but interestingly enough had been wiped clean off of their websites, both Hebrew and English.

    You may want to try to explain how plaster and bricks in Jerusalem are going to threaten American soldiers 1,300 miles away.

    It is most definitely time to tell your government to go straight to hell – and both your president and vice president need colonoscopies to clean the shit out of their brains – what few brains they have.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Jeannie,

    This is an article about hatred pushed in Arab schools in Israel. It’s a long read, so if it interests you, take your time….

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Ruvy,

    I am looking at a brand new day! I promise you that I will read that article after I finish this, “article.” …

    :)I’m in a good mood right now and I want it to last. Hope you are also happy today.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Jeannie’s “no substance” remarks ofttimes are more telling, Ruvy, than your long dissertations.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger, Is this your voice that I hear right now? ;)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Yes, but I ‘m going right back to bed.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Jeannie’s “no substance” remarks ofttimes are more telling, Ruvy, than your long dissertations.

    I don’t judge (“judge” is not the right word – perhaps “view” is) a person by their political views, Roger.

    Marthe Raymond (you know here as “moonraven”) believes that Israel doesn’t have the right to exist. After learning that she is a Native American, I could at least understand her conclusions, and how she came to them, if not agree with them.

    But we (still) talk like adults with different perspectives. And while she doesn’t like or necessarily agree with my political points of view, she senses the ties of common feelings between us, and she respects those – as well as my point of view, and my reasons for having that point of view.

    I read Jeannie’s comment #120 and I could sense the goodness in her – strongly. I don’t agree with her, and she doesn’t agree with me, but goodness links us, and I respect her goodness – and hope she respects mine.

    I rarely sense that feeling of goodness when reading your remarks – even if you agree with me and back up my point of view.

    I can’t view you with the same sympathy I view Jeannie, or the Geek Girl, or Glenn Contrarion, or Clavos, or Dan Miller.

    Sorry, dude. I’m not trying to be nasty – just being up-front.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Ruvy, I am looking for a good quote right now and I found this one for you.:)

    “I had faith in Israel before it was established, I have in it now. I believe it has a glorious future before it – not just another sovereign nation, but as an embodiment of the great ideals of our civilization.” -Harry S. Truman

    :)Enjoy this day! That’s not an order,it’s a wish…

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Jeannie,

    I intend to enjoy the rest of the day – and a Sabbath meal!

    Shabbat Shalom!
    Ruvy

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Quite all right, Ruvy. If I wanted your sympathy I would have asked for it. In fact, I like it that way.

    But why are you knocking her down, then, simply because she introduces humor into stale conversation and pierces through some of the nonsense.

    And that was my point, pal, nothing else.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Let me leave you with this thought, then, Ruvy, to meditate during your holy day.

    Jesus didn’t come to bring peace to the world but divisions.

    Now, try to sympathize with that.

    Shabbat Shalom from Christian county

    PS: If you want chapter and verse, I’ll look it up in my concordance.

  • zingzing

    ruvy: “I don’t judge (“judge” is not the right word – perhaps “view” is) a person by their political views, Roger.”

    being as that’s all we’ve got to go on around here, what other criteria do you think you honestly have? vibes?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    ruvy: “I don’t judge (“judge” is not the right word – perhaps “view” is) a person by their political views, Roger.”

    being as that’s all we’ve got to go on around here, what other criteria do you think you honestly have? vibes?

    I figured you might come up with that, zing.

    So tell me zing? What “political” view does this express?

    Ruvy, I applaud you!!!! I feel understood! Yes! It is a huge paradigm shift from Cartesian thought. Oh, how incredibly refreshing to meet a like-minded person. :)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Aha, now we’ve got a clue: it’s all about being “a like-minded” person.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    No, Roger. It’s all about empathy. A shorter word for that is “vibes”.

    Not all of life is about substantive statements. In fact, most of it is about empathy and building community.

    And I haven’t been putting Jeannie down. While I may disagree with some of Jeannie’s points of view, she is all about building community and sharing empathy. That comes shining through in her comments and in her articles. Finally, any person who needs to pull away from the computer because she is thinking about the father she had who had such a short life is someone I have to have deep respect for.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Of course it is. But empathy is something that is required of me.

    I don’t need it from others.

  • zingzing

    ruvy: “Ruvy, I applaud you!!!! I feel understood! Yes! It is a huge paradigm shift from Cartesian thought. Oh, how incredibly refreshing to meet a like-minded person. :)”

    i have no idea. “a huge paradigm shift from cartesian thought…” needs some context, i guess.

    you’ve made some rather far off-base conclusions about me. as i have about you, i’m sure. so i’m not sure your radar is tuned correctly. then again, that’s the nature of the internet. often, i portray myself quite differently from what i am. and i’m sure that if you were walking down the streets of tehran, you wouldn’t be picking off women and children. but you sure make it sound like you would now and again. and even though i know you’re just full of bluster in those moments, i’ll run with it.

    the way we view each other on here has very little to do with actual reality.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    zingzing,

    Speak only for yourself, this IS who I AM here.

    the way we view each other on here has very little to do with actual reality.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    That’s the problem with all of these websites, no one wants to revel their true feelings. They all run around playing, Devil’s advocate and then you hear them talking on the radio one night, and you say to yourself, “Which one is the real person?”
    It shouldn’t be this way.:(

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I hope you’re not referring to me, Jeannie.

    I wasn’t on no kind of radio last night. Check with Silas.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Shabbat Shalom!
    Ruvy…right back at ya! Eat a MatZos with honey!They’re really good.:)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Ha ha ha Roger that’s a good one..i told you to stop playing with my head, but do you listen? NO!
    I was reffering to Clavos.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Why don’t you have him eat gefilte fish while you’re at it? And some blintzes.

  • zingzing

    jeannie: “Speak only for yourself, this IS who I AM here.”

    first, “this is who i am HERE” definitely gets to what i was saying. no one can truly represent themselves on such a forum. people are much more complex than their politics. beyond that, how many times to you think you are misinterpreted around here? so obviously, we see something different in you than you see in yourself. so our perception of you is NOT you. maybe you are more honest than i am around here, but you’re no more you here than i am me here. (diagram that sentence.)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Zingzing,

    I am not saying that U R KNOT ONEST!! :)

    I am definitely not who you thinks I am…

    :)Typo’s on purpose. Please have fun with me too, OK?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I always try to talk about mundane life to show that there is more to life than our politics.

    I am no more than you, and I never implied that of anyone here, have I?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Now, I am hungry…bye ;)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Indeed, zing. Politics may be a hot topic, but don’t you think that some personalities are being revealed in the process?

    And ofttimes, in spite of some of the posters’ wishes.

  • zingzing

    jeannie, i’m the one who said i’m dishonest. i lie all the time. raised by snakes. so no worries.

    roger, sure, personalities are revealed, but i think it’s pretty hard to tell when what’s revealed is to be trusted. i doubt very much that any two of us meeting face to face wouldn’t be surprised at how much different the other person is than our perception of them here would lead us to believe.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Zing,

    I just don’t want all my words this morning to snowball. They have a way of doing that around here, and I see Clavos is picking out phrases as I speak…so…I’m going to run!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    The same is true, zing, of face-to-face contacts as well. The difference is of course, we’ve got so much more to go by.

    That Clavos, for instance . . .

  • Clavos

    i doubt very much that any two of us meeting face to face wouldn’t be surprised at how much different the other person is than our perception of them here would lead us to believe.

    Quoted for Truth.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Clavos,

    Aren’t you busy with something right now?

  • Ruvy

    Clavos managed to post something just a few minutes before I got on.

    Have a good week, everybody. More and more attention is being focused here on spring cleaning for PessaH. We live not far from Shiló, where the fist altar was located in Israel for 369 years before being lost to the Philistines in battle, recovered, stored in Bet Shemesh for a time, and finally being brought to Jerusalem where it was installed in the Temple of Shlomo.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    I feel like an idiot! I was listening to a rerun of Silas’s show. So, there I am trying to call in and the phone is telling me that the show is going to start in one hour. You were not kidding with me after all…

  • Cindy

    zing (141) appears to be reading r.d. laing’s politics of experience whilst jeannie (142) is maybe reading laing’s knots

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Why isn’t Cindy reading Jeannie’s newest? hmmmm? :) blatant self-promotion.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Well, it’s time to navigate away from all the touchy feely stuff and get back ti the bitter realities that surround is in the Middle East.

    Back at comment #96, I pointed out how the construction at Ramat Shlomo had exploded (or had been exploded) into a story far beyond its worth.

    Well the American secretary of state, the woman who gave Suha Arafat a big, big hug some years back when she was still sleeping with the president, bitched out prime minister Netanyahu on the Sabbath.

    I for one do not answer the phone on the Sabbath, and no American is worth breaking G-d’s commandments – especially some sleazy politician like Joe Biden, Barak Obama or Hillary Clinton. But the prime minister listened to the American secretary of state bitch at him for over an hour.

    First of all, I would have made Hillary wait till MY Sabbath was over. If she didn’t have the decency to do that, she could go to hell. Second of all, upon returning the call after the Sabbath ended, I would have told to mind her own damned business and shut the fuck up – and that if the Arabs didn’t want proximity talks, fine. Good-bye, end of discussion. After the bitch called back (you could bet she would, screaming her ass off), I would tell her to go to her boy toy, get laid and do some bhang – and not to call me again until she had figured out who was evil and who was on the side of her bankrupt country.

    Then I would have gone to the press to tell them what had transpired, and remind everyone that there was nothing binding Israel to do anything America – or anybody else, for that matter – demanded.

    Then to get the point across, I would have dismissed a number of Americans stationed here – particularly the shithead in charge of training Arabs to kill Jews, and publicly warned the Americans that the American-only base in the Negev would be turned over to Israeli control in 24 hours – or it would be seized forcibly.

    Our coward of a prime minister didn’t have the balls to do any of that. Instead, he violated G-d’s Sabbath to talk to some Euro-shit politicians after saying “yes mistress” to Bill Clinton’s pain in the balls.

    The scouring of the shire gets closer and closer.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Ruvy, I tend to shy away from commenting on Israeli policies as you know how I feel about the sovereign right of Israelis. However, after this latest faux pas by the State Department I am beginning to believe that the Israeli government would best serve its constituency by telling countries in the West to bugger off; take a hard line against Arab militants including the use of military force if appropriate; and, last but not least, host a summit in Jerusalem for Arab, Israeli and Christian groups who live within the State of Israel to forge a new coalition free of the whores who occupy your government today.

  • zingzing

    how about they “host a summit in Jerusalem for Arab, Israeli and Christian groups who live within the State of Israel to forge a” community where they can all live together without killing one another? that might do some good as well.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Silas,

    Your ideas would make sense if the government here was actually independent and sovereign. Indeed those still actually under that illusion say what you do.

    But the government is not sovereign anymore, nor is it independent. That is why you hear repeated references to a “scouring of the shire”. The scouring is not directed against Arabs (other than terrorists, perhaps). It is directed against Jewish traitors, and the embedded elements of organized crime here.

    Once the scouring is done, then a sovereign government can act against the evils of the prior one, as well as deal with our less than friendly neighbors.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Before I leave to take care of other things I need to today, I thought I would leave an update of what seems to be going on around here with respect to telling America to go to hell.

    First the good news. The simplest way to end American interference here (and the motivation for it) is to extend our law over Judea and Samaria, assert the sovereignty given to us over the area by the Resolutions on Palestine of 24-25 April 1920, adopted in San Remo Italy, and to grant citizenship to the resident Arabs here. That would make the PA (and any of its constituent members) rebels subject to imprisonment, and where the law allows, execution. But that would also end the unnecessary split in the land, allow the natural integration of the economy here, and lay the foundation for prosperous Jews and Arabs living in peace. Earlier, it was noted that MK Tzipi Hotovely (Likud) suggested this, and now economics expert, Joel Bainerman has as well.

    So much for the good news. Sigh….

    Attempting to “put all this in the past”, prime minister Netanyahu, at the Sunday cabinet meeting today told fellow ministers not to mention strains in US-Israel relations. Let’s not get carried away,” he is reported to have said to his ministers over the way the Americans, in the persons of their vice president and secretary of state crapped on Israeli sovereignty over our capital.

    Just like a ghetto kike in Poland, he apologized to the “Polish squires” – the American officials – who crapped on him. The character of Yoni Netanyahu, z”l, hy”d, does not inhabit Bibi Netanyahu. The courage is not there, the guts are not there. Bibi is poor excuse for his dead brother.

    He is the American manufactured “nationalist” imposed on us in place of a real leader.

    Evidence of this lack of guts and courage come from this report that all building planning in Jerusalem has been canceled. According to this update, one individual who was on his way to such a meeting told Arutz 7 that his canceled meeting was supposed to discuss building in Old Katamon ” within the green line. “What is going on here? One phone call from Washington has disrupted our lives,” he said.

    In the meantime, an Arab firebomb wounded a father and his baby son on Highway 443, which travels west from Modi’ín to Jerusalem. The IDF arrested the Hamas terrorist behind the Café Hillel bombing in 2003, and naturally, Hamas threatened retaliation. In more violence, Arabs threw rocks at Israeli vehicles traveling on Highway 443 in Samaria, and near Teko’a in Judea, and are reported to be rioting near Beit Jallah in the south of Jerusalem.

    Love and joy in the promised land!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Ruvy,

    :)Have a nice day!

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    When you consider the fact that Caroline Glick warned last week that Biden might be trying to set up a situation to bring down the Netanyahu government (the last link on page three of this article), and consider this threat from the Labor Party of Israel, then the conclusions in Ralph’s Rant becomes rather obvious. Hillary Clinton’s imperious demands are proof positive that I was right that the United States government is acting as a mortal enemy to this nation – and must be dealt with that way.

  • zingzing

    jeez, ruvy. a mortal enemy? that’s a bit of a stretch. when someone hands you money and guns and offers protection, they’re more like a mob boss than an enemy. but i guess you never can tell.

    dealt with, eh? what exactly do you think a wise move would be? you’re seeing enemies all around you, ruvy. not everyone is out to kill you.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Go reread what American aid really means, zing. Basically, whether you realize this or not, I’ve dragged the Israeli government through the mud calling them bought whores – because that is what they are. My prime criticism is not of the United States at all. Obama and his flunkies have done us all a tremendous favor by stripping off the mask of American “friendship”. We now know exactly who and what the bastards in the US government are – bullies and enemies. This includes all the self-hating Jews – court-kikes – who hang around Obama, basking in the reflected glory of the leftist who snuck in – a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

    By the way, while you’re at it, go check out which organization uses the wolf in sheep’s clothing as its symbol.

  • http://www.davidbenariel.org David Ben-Ariel

    The bloody Military Industrial Complex in Israel and the United States collaborate with each other, with the “blessings” of the Vatican and their German tools (whose evil eye is on Jerusalem). The Israelis don’t need wicked Americans to corrupt their leaders – they’re already as rotten to the core as can be!

    It’s past time the American people cut off all foreign welfare – whether to the Israeli oligarchy, Egypt or Haiti – and it’s past time the Israelis repent and finally establish a truly Jewish homeland that trusts in God, as Meir Kahane called for by reminding the nation of the Law of Moses.

  • zingzing

    don’t hand me ungoogleable mysteries, ruvy. i haven’t the patience.

    what is it, exactly, that you think the us gov’t is trying to accomplish by “bullying” israel?

  • Ruvy

    what is it, exactly, that you think the us gov’t is trying to accomplish by “bullying” israel?

    First read this about Lulu, the Brazilian president the Israeli government made the mistake of inviting here. He purposely refused to visit the tomb of Theodore Herzl, who founded the Zionist movement – and agreed to visit the grave of Arabfart in Ramallah.

    According to Eldad, “As the United States spits at us, trying to humiliate the Prime Minister of Israel, in order for Obama to get a drop of international recognition, we can not tolerate another spitting in our face by the president of Brazil.

    The Americans want to make spitting at us and humiliating our leaders a legitimate international activity. This is why high level American officials must be expelled, and the American general training Arabs to kill us must be made persona-non-grata – permanently. His unit must be dissolved, with the members executed if necessary. If Americans think they can spit at us, they must be kicked out like the filthy dogs they are. The American-only base in the Negev must be seized and the Americans expelled; and unilateral action must be taken against Iran. It must made be crystal clear to the American bastards that Israel is the sovereign state of the Jewish people, and that no American or European dog will ever dictate to us again.

    There must be a heavy price tag imposed for American arrogance. The Brazilian president must be told he will never enter this country – for the rest of his life.

    Clinton must be told the same thing. It is high to tell America to go to hell – loud and clear.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Oh, by the way, zing. The Fabian Society uses the symbol of a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

  • zingzing

    “The Americans want to make spitting at us and humiliating our leaders a legitimate international activity.”

    that seems like a pretty useless exercise… and i don’t see what the point of it would be.

    “a drop of international recognition…”

    israel isn’t the center of the world, ruvy… although some days you (general) might think it is.

    the fabian society… a british socialist group… ok, so they back national health care, but what was the connection again?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    “The Americans want to make spitting at us and humiliating our leaders a legitimate international activity.”

    that seems like a pretty useless exercise… and i don’t see what the point of it would be.

    If you don’t see the point of such an exercise, you are not a Jew-hater (we know you are not a self-hating Jew) like the members of the Obama administration are. A Jew-hater likes to spit at Jews and use them as instruments to attack other Jews. That’s Obama to a “t”. That’s Shrillary to a “t”, also. That’s the dickhead, “Sheriff Joe” also, I guess.

    “a drop of international recognition…” israel isn’t the center of the world, ruvy… although some days you (generally) might think it is.

    That’s MK Aryeh Eldad (National Union) talking, not me. I’m not the only one who pours contempt on that piece of shit you have for a president.

    Another fellow wrote this elsewhere, but it shows that some folks actually do understand us:

    The problem for Tom Friedman is he ignores the main issue: no one in Israel trusts Obama and everyone in Israel believes he has already sold them out, thrown them under the bus.

    Israel has already penciled in Susan Powers fantasies of invading Israel to install Hamas as the ruler of all of Israel. Already accounted for Zbigniew Brezinski’s desire to defend Iranian nukes by shooting down Israeli planes and missiles. Well discussed [already] are America’s plans under Obama to attack Israel the moment Israel attacks Iranian nuclear facilities.

    Everyone in Israel believes Obama would be quite happy, as would most Democrats, with Iran wiping Israel off the map.

    So he has no leverage. So Obama might cut off aid to Israel? So what? So Obama might stop military aid to Israel? So what? Israel and the people-leadership nexus in that nation have already figured Obama at best will happily celebrate their incineration by Iranian nukes, and at worst will actively defend Iran against any Israeli strike.

    So what exactly does Joe Biden have to complain about? Really? Israel having been thrown under the bus already, has acted accordingly.

    This is the harvest of Obama [and Bush] serially betraying American allies and throwing friends under the bus and never keeping his word: no one trusts him. At all.

    Its not just Israel. Britain in the Falklands, India wrt Pakistan, Honduras wrt Cuba and Venezuela and Nicarauga, all will pencil in Obama’s hostility to their existence and interests and act as if he is their enemy, and America there enemy. Because both are in fact true.

    When no one trusts you, [and] you have an observable habit of serially betraying friends, you can only get “deals” by massive force. That’s it.

  • zingzing

    “If you don’t see the point of such an exercise, you are not a Jew-hater (we know you are not a self-hating Jew) like the members of the Obama administration are.”

    so, it’s because they hate the jews. i see. there’s no other reason. i just don’t think they really have the time. complicated world out there, and taking time out for a hobby probably isn’t the smart thing to do.

    “Everyone in Israel believes Obama would be quite happy, as would most Democrats, with Iran wiping Israel off the map.”

    that’s just ridiculous. it would be like we’ve just wasted time and money for 60 years. really, that’s just fucking dumb. i can’t think of anything more antithetical to the dem’s aims over here.

    “So Obama might cut off aid to Israel? So what? So Obama might stop military aid to Israel? So what?”

    um, well… whomever you are quoting is a bit over the edge.

  • kikana

    would America’s hard rules lead Israel to against America with nuclear attacks?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Kikana,

    would America’s hard rules lead Israel to against America with nuclear attacks?

    We do not have enough nukes (or strategic depth) to take on the Americans – directly. I mean, get serious. One of two 50 megaton bombs and we’re all goners here. But, they (the Americans) have chosen to place themselves in opposition to us and our existence. I’m sure someone has worked up an indirect attack on the States and American interests.

    But it seems the Americans are doing a good enough job of destroying themselves by themselves for us to even interfere.

    “Who G-d wishes to destroy, He first makes crazy”.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Kikana,

    Look at it this way. You know all those seasons of 24 and all the possible ways (a minimum of three per season) to wreck the States indirectly that are brought in that show up can all be penciled in (with a number of changes, of course) with some Israeli pulling them off.

    The Americans are finally waking up to that, and have instituted new safety measures that are “not profiling in the traditional sense” – in other words, “profiling in the non-traditional sense”.