Today on Blogcritics
Home » Thoughts On The Haditha Massacre

Thoughts On The Haditha Massacre

Please Share...Tweet about this on Twitter0Share on Facebook0Share on Google+0Share on LinkedIn0Pin on Pinterest0Share on TumblrShare on StumbleUpon0Share on Reddit0Email this to someone

On May 26, 2006, the Los Angeles Times reported:

Marines from Camp Pendleton wantonly killed unarmed Iraqi civilians, including women and children, and then tried to cover up the slayings in the insurgent stronghold of Haditha, military investigations have found.

Officials who have seen the findings of the investigations said the filing of criminal charges, including some murder counts, was expected, which would make the Nov. 19 incident the most serious case of alleged U.S. war crimes in Iraq.

The report made me sick in my stomach. By now we have become used to occasional deeply troubling stories from Iraq, but this one is different. 

The report continued:

In its initial statement to the media, the Marine Corps said the Iraqi civilians were killed either by an insurgent bomb or by crossfire between Marines and insurgents.

But after Time magazine obtained pictures showing dead women and children and quoted Iraqis who said the attack was unprovoked, the Marine Corps backtracked on its explanation and called for an investigation.

That isn't new. Similar stories of innocent civilians being killed have been reported before. Collateral damage, the war hawks call it; a small price to pay for Liberty and Freedom.

The following day, I turned pale. On May 27, the Los Angeles Times followed up the story:

Photographs taken by a Marine intelligence team have convinced investigators that a Marine unit killed as many as 24 unarmed Iraqis, some of them "execution-style," in the insurgent stronghold of Haditha after a roadside bomb killed an American in November, officials close to the investigation said Friday.

The pictures are said to show wounds to the upper bodies of the victims, who included several women and six children. Some were shot in the head and some in the back, congressional and defense officials said.

One government official said the pictures showed that infantry Marines from Camp Pendleton "suffered a total breakdown in morality and leadership, with tragic results."

You can read the chilling details and the further follows-ups in the Los Angeles Times.

The algorithm seems simple: liberty and freedom at the cost of innocent lives. It's this side and that side, but it doesn't really matter which side you are on: you suffer either way.

President Bush seems to have taken notice. AP reports via Yahoo news:

"I am troubled by the initial news stories," Bush said in his first public comments about the deaths of about two dozen civilians at Haditha last November. "I'm mindful that there's a thorough investigation going on. If, in fact, laws were broken, there will be punishment."

It appears that the President has expressed his genuine concern. But given the record of his administration, particularly the reluctance to function within the laws and constitutional premises, and living in a heap of lies which grows every day, I am skeptical.

Powered by

About Q Bit

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    On the positive side, the military began an investigation of this incident within weeks of its occurance and half-a-year before it became public, and by the time it broke in the news they were already at the point where they’re preparing to bring charges against the marines involved.

    Regrettable excesses like this happen in combat situations despite the best discipline, but we can at least take some comfort in the fact that such incidents are few and far between and that the military has made no effort to condone, excuse or cover up what happened and has taken appropriate measures to investigate and prosecute instead.

    Dave

  • gonzo marx

    ummm…which part about “november” is unclear?

    the fact that we only have learned of this now, that only this week have the marines in question been put on base confinement, or pre-trial confinement…added in is that the Commander in Chief professes to have been unaware until this week…should make every american VERY fucking concerned and worried…

    for our soldiers in the field, for the Iraqi civilians, as wellas our nation’s plummeting reputation and respect around the world where once we stood as a beacon for how these things should be done…

    no matter how you slice it, there are two civlians directly responsible for EVERYTHING in the military that happens on their watch…

    so, when are the Defense Secretary and the President going to be held accountable, even if to clear themselves personally? When are they going to stand up and take Responsibility for shit doen or not done on their watch?

    and when is all this going to be examined and investigated, the answers given to the american people and the world?

    yer gonzo sez….don’t hold yer breath

    Excelsior?

  • zingzing

    yes, there is a postivie side to american troops executing innocent women and children. go military! woo-hoo! “regrettable excesses…” fuck off. “combat situation?” what combat situation? “we can take some comfort…” yeah. hope those women and children are comfortable in their shallow mass grave.

    stop defending this shit, dave. it’s fucking disgusting and there is no way that any “positives” can come out of it. this is just what happens when you take the average idiotic pimply gung-ho american boy and slap a fucking gun and a mandate to kill foreign people in his hands. some people who join the army do it because they WANT TO KILL. some of them want to be cowboys, to play “guns.”

  • zingzing

    scratch “army,” replace with marines. replace with military. replace with stupid killy thing.

  • http://secondvibe.blogspot.com Q Bit

    I wish what you said is the truth.

    As I mentioned in my post,

    In its initial statement to the media, the Marine Corps said the Iraqi civilians were killed either by an insurgent bomb or by crossfire between Marines and insurgents.
    But after Time magazine obtained pictures showing dead women and children and quoted Iraqis who said the attack was unprovoked, the Marine Corps backtracked on its explanation and called for an investigation.

    The Marine Corps wanted to feed another cock n bull story till the TIME obtained the pictures. That’s extremely disturbing.

    Let’s take two instances: Abu Ghraib and Haditha. Actions are taken ONLY when the pictures surfaced. For Abu Ghraib, the folks who carried their perverted acts were plain stupid. In the Haditha case, it was different. The pictures were available to Marine Commanders right after the incident but they didn’t take any action based on them, although the pictures clearly contradicted the stories by the soldiers.

    Now how many Abu Ghraib and Haditha could have gone unreported? Or never became a story? May be there were no picture proofs available.

  • http://secondvibe.blogspot.com Q But

    #5 addressed to Dave.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Zing, I didn’t say there was a positive side to the actions of the Marines in quesiton, just that it was nice to see the military responding appropriately. I’m not defending the massacre, that’s indefensible. I was pointing out that in the aftermath the right action has been taken.

    Dave

  • gonzo marx

    i think #7 is completely incorrect

    NO real action has been taken yet, and there does not appear to have been any correct action taken since the occurance of the incident in fucking november of last year!

    that is “un-Sat” as they say in the service, and shows that something is VERY fucking wrong in the system.

    my worries are for what this could do to the tens of thousands of EXCELLENT personnel in the marines right now… this will be hell on their morale, and the vast majority do NOT deserve the stain of doubt and dishonor this incident, AND it’s not having been dealt with swiftly and certainly, will have on the Corps

    woe is U.S.

    Excelsior?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Sorry, Q Bit, I must have rushed through your piece. I didn’t realize you were misrepresenting the facts.

    after Time magazine obtained pictures showing dead women and children and quoted Iraqis who said the attack was unprovoked, the Marine Corps backtracked on its explanation and called for an investigation.

    This is incorrect. The preliminary investigation of the incident began within weeks of the actual events, back in the fall of last year, initiated because of inconsistencies in the accounts of those involved and photos of physical evidence which suggested a different story from the one they were telling. A formal investigation began in March.

    The initial claim that it was an IED accident was issued prior to the commencement of the investigation which has now been going on for 7 months in one form or another. In addition, the military released a public statement about the investigation almost a month before Time Magazine discovered the story. In fact, Time’s story was motivated by information they got from the military investigation.

    The only effort to cover this up came from the marines who committed the attrocity in the first place. Aside from initially repeating their claim, the military has since that time behaved in an entirely appropriate and responsible way.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Gonzo, even Al Jazeera is reporting that an investigation has been going on for months.

    NO real action has been taken yet, and there does not appear to have been any correct action taken since the occurance of the incident in fucking november of last year!

    Wrong, gonzo. It’s become an issue this week because the investigation has concluded and they’re preparing to charge the marines involved.

    Dave

  • zingzing

    i dunno. 7 months is a long time. i’m sure this went reported right away in iraq. so, how did the american press not know about it? did they? or were they kept in the dark? or were they silenced? something is going on here, and i think we all know what it is.

    like i said, this is just what happens in the military. it happens all over the world in every military. people with guns kill things. so there.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    On looking at the chonology in more detail, it looks like initial reports from on-site investigators weren’t actually acted on until February, and that the investigation didn’t move up the chain of command until that point.

    Time magazine’s reporting crew in Iraq seems to have been instrumental in bringing the issue to the attention of the military command in Iraq, which had not been informed of the questions which had been raised about the incident by the local marine commander – who was almost immediately removed from command.

    Rather than being silenced, it appears that Time chose to sit on the story until the military could fully investigate and verify the facts.

    Dave

  • zingzing

    hmmm. maybe. why would time sit around though? and why let the military, that bastion of truth, the military, why would they let the military “verify the facts?” why didn’t they go get the story? why wait for the military’s watered-down version? i know it’s potentially dangerous, but, what with the military’s history (not only in this war, but vietnam, etc) of secrecy and lies… yeah.

  • gonzo marx

    now somebody said to me…*It’s become an issue this week because the investigation has concluded and they’re preparing to charge the marines involved.*

    interesting point, and well taken

    however, the actual fact that anyone will tell you who has served is that the time between and “investigation” and a courts martial can usual be measured in days…weeks at the outside

    we will see, so far i read conflicting reports and timelines…

    fuck the politics of it, the damn shame is that civilians were killed and that the good name of the Corps has been screwed over…

    but that no one, even supposedly the Copmmander in Chief has heard/talked about it until th emedia broke it this week is horribly fucking wrong

    i really don’t care what anyone says to the contrary

  • http://secondvibe.blogspot.com Q Bit

    Nothing personal here Dave, but it seems your comments #9 and #12 are contradictory.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Yes, they are somewhat contradictory, Q. I did more research and got some details on the sequence of events that I didn’t have when I wrote #9, so #12 is better informed. The fact remains that the military was investigating the incident and didn’t actively cover it up, but Time played a bigger role in advancing the investigation than I had originally realized – prior to publishing anything about it.

    but that no one, even supposedly the Copmmander in Chief has heard/talked about it until th emedia broke it this week is horribly fucking wrong

    Bush’s ignorance on the subject is inexplicable and troubling, whether real or feigned. However, the military has been issuing press releases on the investigation for months, so it wasn’t being hidden, it’s just that the news media didn’t really catch on as a whole until the last week or so.

    why would time sit around though? and why let the military, that bastion of truth, the military, why would they let the military “verify the facts?” why didn’t they go get the story?

    They’re reporting in a war zone. They want the cooperation of the military so they work with them. That gets them the access they need to cover stories like this. It also doesn’t hurt their story to have the military confirm it. The military had evidence relating to the incident that matched what Time got from Iraqi sources, so that makes their story stronger. It’s good, competent investigative journalism.

    Dave

  • zingzing

    yeah, he’s reading up on the timeline q bit. he’s correcting his ignorance. (which is more than i’m doing.)

  • zingzing

    true. it is good, competent, and late. let’s say there was a mafia killing in some city. would the press wait til the mafia had concluded their investigation of said killing? it doesn’t make all that much sense. and so what if time had pounced on the story–would the military have any right to give them any less information in the future? should they have that right?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Zing, our military is NOT the mafia. Give me a break. And in a war zone the military has the right to shut reporters out alltogether.

    Dave

  • zingzing

    jesus christ, don’t take me so literally. okay–a mafia hitman kills someone. a marine kills someone. do we wait for the mafia (the organization behind the killer) to investigate? do we wait for the marines (the organization behind the killer) to investigate?

    no break for you, sorry.

    and true, the military CAN shut reporters out of a warzone if they think they are in danger, or they endanger the mission. but, that’s not the case here. and the military shouldn’t hide this kind of stuff. and should the military have the right to shut a magazine or newspaper or any media out if they get mad at them? nope. that’s not the way the real world (should) work(s), dave…

  • MCH

    “Nothing personal here Dave, but it seems your comments #9 and #12 are contradictory.”

    Ssusshhhhhh…(whispering quietly)…Q, he’s trying to keep his disorder a secret…

  • William Gardner

    You people make me sick! Until you have put your self in the soldiers shoes then none of you have a right to judge them. I have been to iraq and have done numerous raids and missions with soldiers and i have been in numerous gun battles and ambushes. I have been hit with a IED in a hummer twice in the same day. So from personal experience let me be the first to say them so called Iraqi Innocent civilians KNOW who is planting the IEDS, KNOWS who the insurgents are but they refuse to turn them over. How many of them Innicent Civilians ran out to warn the Soldiers that a bomb was in the road? None of them! One of the so called Survivors even stated on TV and i quote ” I knew a bomb was going to go off and hit the soldiers so i decided to stay in bed that morning” She knew there was a ambush planned and yet she did nothing.. Bush even said on TV anybody that harbors Terrorist will be treated as a Terrorist. Them people in Iraq are blowing up women and children to kill each other and Americans. They have no value on humanlife or any decency. I have seen them have sex with animals in the street over there and the rest of the public not even pay any attention. Bottom line is if you havent been over to iraq and fight along side the soldiers and seen what is going on then you need to set down and shut up.Marines are trained to find the enemy and kill them be it women, children or men. And anybody who harbors, protects, goes along with Iraqi Insurgents is an insurgent and needs to be treated as such. If them Innocent civilians knew there was a IED planted and waiting to kill an American soldier thent hey got what they deserved and we need to be doing more of it to set an example.And to the Iraqi People i say this ” STOP HARBORING TERRORIST AND HELP THE TROOPS FIND THEM AND INCIDENTS LIKE THIS WILL STOP!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    jesus christ, don’t take me so literally. okay–a mafia hitman kills someone. a marine kills someone. do we wait for the mafia (the organization behind the killer) to investigate? do we wait for the marines (the organization behind the killer) to investigate?

    The Mafia doesn’t do investigations. The military has an entire department devoted to that job. They take investigations seriously and do them professionally and thoroughly. Nothing wrong with letting them do their job.

    and true, the military CAN shut reporters out of a warzone if they think they are in danger, or they endanger the mission.

    Check it out. They can shut them out for no reason at all or just because they find them annoying – and they can do it selectively. In a war zone they have complete, arbitrary authority.

    but, that’s not the case here. and the military shouldn’t hide this kind of stuff. and should the military have the right to shut a magazine or newspaper or any media out if they get mad at them? nope. that’s not the way the real world (should) work(s), dave…

    It’s not at all clear that the military as a whole made any effort to hide it. What coverup and negligence there was seems to have been within the unit involved.

    Dave

  • zingzing

    um, they killed an 86-year-old in a wheel chair.

    i’m going to set down and shut up now. didn’t mean to offend your sensibilities. going to fuck a goat now. goat butt is the best butt.

  • zingzing

    that was to mr. gardner.

  • zingzing

    “The Mafia doesn’t do investigations.”

    dude. stop. i give up. not quite. do you not see the connection here? i thought i made it quite clear. do you think there would be no conflict-of-interest at play? not even one little bit? do you trust the fucking military that much? i know you aren’t a complete fool.

    “In a war zone [the military has] complete, arbitrary authority.”

    but should they? and do they have complete control over the press room back in bhagdad? because they find them “annoying?” yeah, that’s going a little far.

  • William Gardner

    The only thing offends me is how quick you would hang a soldier over the word of an Iraqi.

  • AK

    #22 William –

    I Agree 100%. Everyone seems to be comparing apples to oranges here…

  • QM

    William, you are a scary person. A 3 year old child was executed. If the military thinks that is their job, then maybe we should revisit and possibly revise their objectives. This whole exercise is supposed to be about providing ‘freedom’, which I always assumed meant that you didn’t get randomly executed.

  • zingzing

    who’s talking about hanging? and i have no problems with peaceful iraqi civilians, especially not the ones with bullets in their backs.

    ak, what are you talking about? what apples, what oranges?

    your own military says that united states soldiers slaughtered 24 civilians, going house to house, gunning down men, women and children. what the fuck can you say about that? “apples to oranges…”

    see dave? this is what i am talking about. the military is very happy to water these things down. walk in a soldier’s shoes… whatever. they aren’t soldiers anymore. they are murderers

  • zingzing

    yippee! it’s the new game, execution by rampaging soldier! appropriate for children ages 3-86!

  • Dave Nalle

    Zing and Gardner, you’re both flying off into unreasonable extremes here.

    The lack of cooperation of some Iraqi civilians is certainly shameful, but many others do cooperate with and support the troops. But even so, citizens being uncooperative, shouldn’t buy them a bullet in the head. If they should be punished there ought to be a legal process for it.

    Dave

  • zingzing

    what’s unreasonable about being angry that some of our troops are executing civilians? um, it’s pretty damn bad. i must say. not much more i can say about it though.

  • William Gardner

    Ok let me get this right! I’m suppose to be all upset becuase supposedly our soldiers killed a 3 year old while fighting the enemy. I agree with you that it is tragic,but it is not our soldiers fault that the insurgents hide in a house full of women and children. When your getting shot at in Iraq you shoot back. Ive seen an entire house blowed up using apache helo’s becuase insurgents was in that house. Do you think for one moment anybody including myself was worried about civilians in that house. I value my life and the life of American Soldiers more then any Iraqi’s life. Them People are fighting soldiers while surronding themselves with women and children are we not suppose to shoot back? Why dont you take your ass over there and get put in that same situation and see how quick you pull the trigger.
    Another thing since your so quick to judge our soldiers how come your not upset everytime them Innocent people sacrifice women and children in the name of allah. Let me remind you of 911 and all the innocent people them terrorist sacrificed to make thier point.

  • gonzo marx

    comment #23 sez..
    *The Mafia doesn’t do investigations.*

    factually incorrect, and woefully naive in and of itself

    just for the record, mind you

    Excelsior?

  • William Gardner

    Dave do you know what the survival rate of an American is in Iraq if he was to walk down any street unarmed? about 5 minutes. Insurgents is paying big money to kill Americans. Do you know how many times the Iraqi Police have been caught helping insurgents plant IED’s. Ask any soldier who has spent time in Iraq how many Iraqi Soldiers they would trust with thier lives.First rule of thumb for survival is never trust an Iraqi National. Oh yeah the one’s that cooperate with soldiers usually get thier heads chopped off in town. The Iraqi people are not like Americans you can not put our values on them and to do so shows your ignorance. What we think is right and wrong is completly different to them. And to them there is nothing wrong with killing Americans it is thier religious duty to do so.

  • zingzing

    mr. gardner… nevermind. that’s the same arguement vietnam vets give for killing civilians over there. it doesn’t make it right. it’s not even close to right. you don’t walk house to house, killing children and old men. where are these supposed insurgents? never heard about them. all i heard about was a homemade bomb.

  • zingzing

    oh god. why are you defending murderers? they snapped, and killed people who had no business being killed? what, are you saying that killing an iraqi is no biggie because they would kill us right back? hmm? and that makes who better than what?

  • http://www.futonreport.net/ Matthew T. Sussman

    Yeah, well, you know who else killed innocent people?

    HITLER.

  • zingzing

    TED BUNDY.

  • William Gardner

    Zing as far as i am concerned if an entire village is harboring insurgents. Then the entire Village is guilty, and deserve the same treatment as the insurgents.

  • William Gardner

    Zing why are you defending Iraqi Nationals. If you know what the your talking about then i guess you know the survivors already admitted to knowing there was a bomb planted and an ambush set. AND THEY DID NOTHING TO PREVENT IT!!! That is enough to tell me none of the people was innocent. Just by your speech i can tell your [Deleted] looking for any excuse to condemn this war. Bottom line is you have women and children over there killing american troops and im sorry you disagree with killing them. If you are harboring Insurgents then you are not innocent, and if you attack soldiers then you deserve to be exterminated.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Zing, it sounds a bit like you’re defending murderers too, though not in as blatant a way as WG.

    WG: ‘m suppose to be all upset becuase supposedly our soldiers killed a 3 year old while fighting the enemy.

    If that’s what happened I wouldn’t be all that upset either. But it’s not. The fighting was over. They lined up unarmed civilians and shot them in the back of the head. That’s wrong by any standard.

    Dave

  • William Gardner

    I also dont care how many crying Iraqi Nationals they line p infront of a TV crying over there dead friends and family. I will always take the word of our soldiers of the word of a dirty Iraqi National who cant be trusted as far as you throw them.

  • zingzing

    what ambush? i heard nothing of any ambush.

    i’m not LOOKING for an excuse to condemn this war. you’d have to be blind not to.

    i don’t think any of thsoe dead iraqis were actively killing american troops. even attacking them. did they find any insurgents? haven’t seen anything about that. let me know if they have. show me a link that says that all these murdered people were found to be surrounding and protecting insurgents, who actually had weapons and were going to attack our soldiers. show me. prove me wrong. i’d like it better if our troops didn’t just randomly slaughter innocents, trust me. but that’s all i see here.

  • William Gardner

    Dave not one American has addmitted to doing that. We are going on the word of Iraqi Nationals who have admitted already to setting an ambush.Who ami supposed to believe a soldier or an iraqi

  • zingzing

    william, maybe you should read this again. dave: “They lined up unarmed civilians and shot them in the back of the head.”

    and you think this is okay?

  • zingzing

    oh, you don’t believe that’s what happened. okay. fine.

  • gonzo marx

    a wingnut who gives conservatives a bad named sez…
    *Zing as far as i am concerned if an entire village is harboring insurgents. Then the entire Village is guilty, and deserve the same treatment as the insurgents.*

    now, can any other REAL fucking vets tell me just how many articles of the UCMJ this mere statement violates…extra credit for the jarhead that can say how many it would violate if actually carried out

    clue forming for this rocket scienctist….the US invaded Iraq unasked…therefor the Iraqis are under NO obligation to help the invading force, especially against their own countrymen and possibly family..and definately at great risk to themselves

    would we want them too? of course…but you cannot expect them to undergo the same stress and hardships that military personnel endure

    what WG seems to be implying is that cripples, women and children and old people live up to the same standard as professional US military

    just goes to show you, you can take the boy out of Stupidville…..

    Excelsior?

  • William Gardner

    zing said:what ambush? i heard nothing of any ambush.

    i’m not LOOKING for an excuse to condemn this war. you’d have to be blind not to.

    i don’t think any of thsoe dead iraqis were actively killing american troops. even attacking them. did they find any insurgents? haven’t seen anything about that. let me know if they have. show me a link that says that all these murdered people were found to be surrounding and protecting insurgents, who actually had weapons and were going to attack our soldiers. show me. prove me wrong. i’d like it better if our troops didn’t just randomly slaughter innocents, trust me. but that’s all i see here.

    last night on CNN they interviewed a survivor who admitted that she knew a bomb was planted to kill americans as they came by. Your statement is enough for me to know you have no idea what is going on over there, you could never possibly fathom what itis like. Anytime they plant a bomb in the road we callit an Ambush becuase it is usually followed by small arms fire to kill the survivors. I have personally tracked Iraqi nAtionals down from IED sites to find them sitting on thier porch acting like they did nothing wrong while thier entire family says had nothing todo with it. This is what our soldiers is dealing with over there. Our soldiersis fighting Iraqi’s who is getting paid big money to kill Americans.

  • William Gardner

    Like i said Not one American has admitted to murdering these people, we are going onthe wordof Iraqi Nationals and there wordis worth nothing. Until an American Soldier steps up and admits it then i believe nothing the Iraqi Nationals say. Ans shame on any American who does other wise.

  • Clavos

    WG, there’s photographic and video evidence, shot by Marines.

  • zingzing

    i’m just going by what i’ve read, wg. was there any small arms fire after the ied? were these people rounded up and executed DURING that small arms fire?

    how many murderers admit to murdering? and when they do (if they do) admit to it, how will you feel about having waited around for a murderer to admit it, rather than giving one bit of credence to what a surviving (“dirty”) iraqi has to say? do you really think that ALL iraqis are bad people? all of them liars?

  • Clavos

    Coorection to my #52: The video was not shot by Marines, but the photos were.

  • http://secondvibe.blogspot.com Q Bit

    @zing: clearly that’s what WG thinks. He has a distorted view of the world and I won’t be surprised if his views are also echoed from other right wing corners.

    Forget about murders, how many soldiers voiced their concern on Abu Ghraib before the pictures appeared? ZERO.

    And you expect them come out clear on Haditha?

  • Lumpy

    I’d be very surprised if other right wingers shared wg’s xenophobia. Most of them admire and support the efforts of the iraqi people to be free.

  • William Gardner

    Im not a right winger im somebody who has spent time in iraq fighting these people. We train Marines to find and kill the enemy. Our soldiers did what they where trained to do. WHat are we to tell our soldiers only kill men who shoot at you first! that is stupid. Our soldiers is dealing with gorilla warfare over there and that kind of war is always ugly. If you want to prosecute somebody prosecute Rumesfeld he is the idiot who cuased all this mess. You people do not have a clue what is going on over there.You have no idea what Iraqi people are like, you can not fathom it. They still have public beheadings and i have seen them cut a small childs had off for stealing bread to eat becuase he was hungry.But oh yeah we’re not upset about that stuff!!

  • MCH

    “If you want to prosecute somebody prosecute Rumesfeld he is the idiot who cuased all this mess.”

    Dittos…and don’t forget GW Bush and Wolfowitz…

  • Clavos

    WG #57: …”WHat are we to tell our soldiers only kill men who shoot at you first! that is stupid.”

    Yeah, it sure is, and it’s also what we were told (literally) in Vietnam–we all know how well that turned out!

    Comment only–I am NOT defending the alleged actions of the Marines at Haditha OR those of Calley and his henchmen at My Lai, so don’t attack me.

  • William Gardner

    Wel let me say, if these soldiers went into a house and slaughtered this people for no reason then yes they are wrong and need to have the book throwed at them. But all the evidence is not in and there is to many conflicting stories. But i stand behind the soldiers until proven guilty and i will never take the word of a Iraqi National over a soldiers.

  • zingzing

    you can do just that. but it doesn’t look like there is going to be a happy ending for you. hopefully, the soldiers are cleared of all charges. that is, hopefully, if they are innocent… also, your grammar is really terrible.

  • Clavos

    …”also, your grammar is really terrible.”

    Gratuitous, irrelevant and just plain rude, Zing.

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com Christopher Rose

    Mr Gardner’s blind refusal to consider taking the word of ANY Iraqi over an American soldier’s is entirely symptomatic of the problems the USA has in understanding the rest of the world.

  • zingzing

    clavos–nice to meet you. how do you know me so well so fast? it’s uncanny.

  • William Gardner

    Look here i could care less about my grammar or what you think of it. I mean I think your a bleeding heart liberal who cares more about the enemy then our own soldiers but im not pointing that out now am I? Another thing Zing until you have spent some time in some type of combat, war, or simular stressful situation you have no right to arm chair quater back a war or second guess a Soldier.

  • William Gardner

    Mr. Rose
    I can tell by your statement that you like many others have never been to Iraq or fought along side our soldiers. If you had, then you would know the first rule of thumb is to never trust an Iraqi National.

    You say “understanding the rest of the world” Why do Americans need to understand the rest of the world. Was 911 becuase we didnt understand the muslims?

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com Christopher Rose

    Mr Gardner, I can tell by your response that you just make stuff up to suit your prejudice.

    It’s clearly obvious that the USA’s ignorance of the Muslim world was a major factor in what happened when Al Qaeda attacked your country.

    Based on your hysterical overstatement, I take it you’d believe someone with the integrity of, say, Lindy England over the new Iraqi government?

    “Why do Americans need to understand the rest of the world” pretty much tells us all we need to know about your deep insight into the world. Thanks for your “contribution”.

  • William Gardner

    Mr. Rose i dont make stuff up and I tell it like i see it. According to you 911 was America’s fault.Well the only thing i have to say to that is your full of shit.[DELETED] How is that for understanding?

    you said : It’s clearly obvious that the USA’s ignorance of the Muslim world was a major factor in what happened when Al Qaeda attacked your country.

    Agian i repeat myself why does America need to care about the muslim world or the rest of the world?

  • William Gardner

    You know im not going to get into a debate about 911 with you becuase it is obvious your an idiot, But i still stick by my original statement that you havenever been to Iraq and fought along side our soldiers. You have no idea what it is like or what they are going through and until you do you need to shut up. You have no right to second guess anything they did.

  • http://secondvibe.blogspot.com Q Bit

    WG and whoever thinks he’s right:

    From today’s L. A. Times :

    The Marines stopped next at the home of customs official Younis Salim Nusaif, 45, his wife, Aida Yassin, and their six children. The 42-year-old Yassin was in bed that morning, recovering from a recent operation. Her sister had come to stay with the family and help with housework while she recuperated.

    Everyone was at home when the troops arrived. And all but one 12-year-old girl were slain. Along with the parents and visiting sister, four girls and a boy, their ages ranging from 4 to 15, were shot by the Marines, said neighbors and the surviving child, Safa Younis Salim.

  • bush

    911 != war != killing childrens

  • Smart bomb

    If only those marines on the ground had been in a far away command center and had dropped a smart bomb or a laser guided missle they could have then called it a “wedding party” or an insurgent hideout and they would have completely escaped any review. Use smart bombs, they do not kill innocent civilians as far as our media is concerned.

  • Vernon

    Only the USA Politicans have Rules of War while the damn enemy shoots our soldiers. Our troops should receive Medals not getting screwed by our Politicans.

  • William Gardner

    First of all you are taking a quote out of the L.A. Times and that is all i need to say about that. Second of all like i been saying it is Iraqi Nationals claiming this and we are suppose to take thier word over our Soldiers. Plus i see L.A. Times didnt mention the fact that the same 12 year old girl who survived admitted she had known about the bomb that was planted to kill the marines and that is why she stayed home from school i the first place becuase she knew there was going to be fighting. So agian i say IF THE PEOPLE IN THAT HOUSE KNEW THIER WAS AN AMBUSH SET UP FOR OUR SOLDIERS AND DID NOTHING TO PREVENT IT THEN THEY GOT WHAT THEY DESERVED.IF YOU HARBOR TERRORIST THEN YOU ARE A TERRORIST. THE ONLY PEOPLE TO BLAME HERE IS THE IRAQI’S FOR NOT WEEDING THESE PEOPLE OUT.

  • William Gardner

    Political correctness has no place in a war!

  • http://secondvibe.blogspot.com Q Bit

    WG:
    You said, “Plus i see L.A. Times didnt mention the fact that the same 12 year old girl who survived admitted she had known about the bomb..”

    Tell me the the source of your info, send me the link.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Christopher Rose wrote:

    Mr Gardner’s blind refusal to consider taking the word of ANY Iraqi over an American soldier’s is entirely symptomatic of the problems the USA has in understanding the rest of the world.

    No, it’s not. That’s an utter load of crap. His attitude is absolutely atypical of Americans as a group, our soldiers AND our foreign policy. We’re working hand in hand with Iraqis to rebuild their country and establish a government, and that requires a great deal of trust. Others around the world may have problems with the US, but if they’re based on the assumption that we’re all like Gardner, they’re fallacious and entirely in the minds of the USA-bashers.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    I will always take the word of our soldiers of the word of a dirty Iraqi National who cant be trusted as far as you throw them.

    Will you take the word of JAG investigators who said that contrary to the soldiers claims that the people died from shrapnel, they were in fact killed with small arms fire at close range from behind, and that ballistical analysis shows that the guns used were US issue, not AK-47s or other arms typically available to insurgents?

    Dave

  • Brad

    From all of the reports I have read the only official (meaning USA official) source of information was from somebody at the Pentagon who wished to remain anonymous. The NCIS is doing an investigation into the matter and no charges have yet been filed. So far all we know somebody who was upset with how the investigation was going, or wanted some money, or had some other personal motive decided to leak some information that should not have been leaked.

    On comes the media scrutiny. The media has already made up their minds. They have apparently made up yours too. Our troops are coming under fire for no personal gain of their own. They’re dying out there every day for the people who are killing them. It’s not our business to pass judgement on them. The military is dealing with the situation and hopefully all of this media attention does not affect the outcome.

    What happens if it turns out the majority of this story was made up? What if before the military investigators got there the locals decided to conjure up some dirt by killing innocent people? What if, just what if, it turns out they’re innocent. Not only is the muslim world using this as fuel for the fanatical muslim movement but if they are innocent and declared so then they will say we are covering this up.

    So perhaps we shouldn’t be having this conversation. Perhaps we should let the people who have the information make the determination.

  • Anti W Gardner

    Comprehend all the remarks, but paid more interest in what W Gardner annotations. He is full of shit. You call yourself a human being and you natter like that, maybe you should be part of those we cried for at the park on May 29, because you not supposed to be here opening your grubby mouth and talking.

    Please think for once like a human being, and type sagacious comments. All your annotations are just bizarre, meaningless and incongruous. Can you just shut the fuck up and let justice prevail

  • Carter

    You people are so full of shit!

    What do you think happens when a roadside bomb goes off? You think magic fairies plant it and nobody around knows about it? Um… no. Insurgents plant it and everybody around knows it’s being planted. And they sit on their asses and do nothing about it, a US convoy comes along, the bomb goes off and young Marines are killed as if an unseen hand just reached out.

    You have no fucking clue what you’re talking about. You have no understanding of the situation these young men are in. They drive around in convoys getting hit from all sides, while the people they are there to help sit on their asses passively while people in their midst fight dirty. Dirty. And you expect them to sit there and get killed.

    You know what the Israelis would do after a roadside bomb? They send a bomb into the immediate neighbourhood. You know what the Nazis would do? They would massacre everyone within a kilometre radius and raize the buildings to the ground (they did as much in WW2 and, contrary to popular belief, there were no major uprisings against the Nazis in occupied territories). And now because a handful of Marines are strained to the breaking point and finally fight back in a way that, while it would make you people sitting comfortably at home squeamish, is a way that is quite effective at stopping this kind of attack. And you sit at your little PCs blogging about them – demonizing them – as if they are Mafia. You would shit your pants and turn to a blob of jelly if you were under the kind of pressure they are; if you had seen a few of you best friends blown to pieces. I recommend you all shut the fuck up! None of you have any moral platform to stand on and judge the actions of these desparate young soldiers.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    So now the Nazis are our standard of conduct, Carter? I’ll say no thanks to that plan.

    dave

  • William Gardner

    Q-bit i cant give you a link becuase I saw the video Interview on CNN with that wolf guy (Situation Room). It was on CNN and im sure if you check thier website you will find it.

    Dave im not sure if you backed me up or insulted me. lol I know im coming off as a bad guy but i really dont care. I know what it is like over there and you are right we are supposed to be working with the Iraqi people hand in hand to rebuild thier nation. But that isnt what is going on over there. The Iraqi People are untrust worthy and they have proven it time after time. The insurgents hide amongest them and they refuse to give them up or help our soldiers find them.
    Point is we shouldnt be judging these soldiers on the word of Iraqi’s we should wait until our military concludes thier investigation and accept what ever our military says happened for good or bad. The Iraqi people have no credability and the last thing we should do is believe anything they say.

  • Anti W Gardner

    Mr. Gardner was talking about going to war, was it free, even overpaid, there is a job that needs to be done not a law that needs to be broken.

    To Mr. Dave, I just think the investigation will not turn out like this if the newspaper guys have not published something out or interviewed some Iraqis. It’s sad but hey it’s a war BUT that does not give any human being whether American or Iraqis to kill another human being in an execution style.

    People in the army, navy or military are doing their job just like every other person, but unfortunately, guns are involved, and some few have abused that usage because they have the power to or in retribution, which is totally intolerable

    The investigation I believe took the right direction but waited too long, and like someone said, how many more, how many haditha more do we still have in our hands, how many more do we know about.

    At the end of this war, we will all see how irresponsible and how untrained most of these kids that jump out of high school into military are. There should be a revamp of military training particularly mind exercise given to these kids.

  • Brad

    Dave,

    I think the point he is trying to come across with that a proven effective way of dealing with people who hate you is let them know there will be dire consequences if they take action against you. You may or may not disagree, but you’re not the one in Iraq, and neither am I.

    Brad

  • William Gardner

    Amen Carter!!!!! Thank You!!!

    Dave to your post #78

    Several of our soldiers have been killed in Iraq and thier bodies stripped of clothing and weapons. Who is to say the Insurgents didnt use American weapons they took off dead soldiers and do this themselves.

  • Truthteller

    Mr. Gardner,

    You’re evil and appear to be mildly retarded. Please stop embarrassing yourself.

  • http://I'dliketoknow Michele Mehl

    I’d like to know if the “innocent” civilians were housing terrorists. If the marine’s walked into a house full of terrorist firing upon them and if “innocent” women and children scrambled and the marines felt their lives were in jeopardy (are these children 13 and look like young men capable of shooting back or were they 3 or 4 an not a threat to their safety?).

    If the stance of our government is to consider those that harbor terrorist the enemy, terrorist shouldn’t put the lives of their wives and children in harms way by asking them to give them shelter (or share shelter with them).

    If the marines truly did this, they should be punished. But, we have good soldiers and hopefully we can hear both sides of the story before assuming they are guilty. There are things happening in this war that are not being reported (for example, there have been cases of terrorist killing children and then blaming Americans). I hope the military is looking at the actual bullets to see if the bullets came from American guns or from the terrorist’s guns.

    I also hope that if the marine’s had justified reasons for acting, that the Bush administration comes to their defense.

  • Anti W Gardner

    Mr. Carter, executing a human just like you is what you call fighting back; now I believe some people needs to go out of their society and see how people live in other societies and by the way, what makes you think Iraqis believe you are trying to help them.

    I am sure Mr. Carter has never been out of his town his entire life, comparing the Nazi’s with the so called well trained American Soldiers. The point is there are some bad apples in the military and it should not take a long time to get rid of those bad apples.

    Going to war to anyone in the military is like going to his or her normal chores. That is what they are trained for, and there are rules, there are laws which govern what the person is trained for, that law or rules should be strictly followed, anyone above that law should be punished.

    It’s a shame that it took over 6 month before the commander in chief knew about these massacres, American soldiers should be in Dafur (Sudan) and not in Iraq, it’s a shame and shame to anyone that does not support justice when a law is broken.

    Those bad apples should be well punished and be a lesson to others

  • Brad

    The media has blown this up and there is no such thing as a positive outcome. More American soldiers will die now because of TIME magazine wanting to get an exclusive story.

  • BOOO

    Some people made stupid comments. Why should those iraqis risk their life to DO ANYTHING to stop the roadside bomb? Just to save the American’s life? You have watched too many Hollywood movies. Can they just choose silence? Did their silence make them so guilty to be shot?

  • William Gardner

    TO: Anti W Gardner I could give a damn if you agree with me or not. You sound like that zing fellow, A bleeding heart liberal who has no bussiness discussing anything dealing with War, [Edited]. You act like this is a crime scene some where in rural America! It is a WAR ZONE, People are going to Die in a war. And i stick to my original saying if the people in that house knew about the Bomb and was Harboring the Insurgents then they deserve what they got! I wouldnt give a million Iraqi’s for one American Soldier.

  • Al from MO

    As R-Lee says… “semper fi” or is it “shoot them between the eyes”.

  • scowler

    Let’s agree that the death of innocent civilians is a regrettable tragedy. However let’s also not be so quick to “lynch mob” our soldiers. We (private citizens) may never know what really happened in Haditha. Neither side will likely be satisfied with the findings. I for one,however, will not presume to pass judgement on our Marines because I have never experienced live combat. I can easily imagine that these intense repetitive life-threatening experiences may result in a loss of control with tragic consequences.
    In every war ever fought, soldiers have done extraordinary as well as horrible things. Heroism, cowardice, friendly fire, civilian casualties….. these events occur in every war! We do not live in a perfect or fault-free world. At this stage in human evolution,
    war is still the primary means for conflict resolution when diplomacy fails. Unfortunately, it is not possible to wage war without getting our hands bloody. I place the blame on the process and not the process-server.

  • what have you been smoking

    Ok bush attacks a country that didnt attack us on 911, had no ties with alqeda (now a proven fact, and just saying it doesnt make it so) and you expect the iraqis to help you find IDE. Good for you that you fought beside a soldier but how come none of the soldiers have any backbone to get the ppl who caused all this (i.e rumy, bush and dick) even you admit that it was a mistake (they should be tried for war crimes) you went there to get weapons of mass destruction but seems like you return becoming one urself. What was that moto for the marienss. protect the weak or something but i guess that was just B.S. After the shock and aweeeee did you expect them to greet you with flower (oh i forgot you did) i guess you should have given flowers to bin laden to than.

  • Clavos

    Well said, scowler!

  • Anti W Gardner

    It’s just sad that people like Mr. Gardner still exist aftermath the standing of this country, being a leader in freedom of human and exercising human rights. Mr. Gardner said “I wouldn’t give a million Iraqi’s for one American Soldier.”, that just show how shallow minded he is. Yes it is a WAR ZONE, not an EXECUTION ZONE.

    Goddamit, you need to go back to school and learn the meaning of being at WAR or better still, help yourself out by going to Wikipedia and learn something, plssssssssssss

  • what have you been smoking

    I place the blame on the process and not the process-server.

    exactly right… all for what power, control, money?

  • William Gardner

    It is painfully obvious that you people have no idea what your talking about. You have no idea what it is like over there, nor or you capable of fathoming it. Our soldiers are there to Help the Iraqi People and all the Iraqi People have to do is point out the insurgents and our soldiers will take care of it. The reason the Iraqi people dont turn the insurgents over is becuase the majority of them are family members.You have 12 to 18 year old children over there trying to kill soldiers and catch it on video tape so they can collect thier rewards.I mean i could go on all day about this and try to help you understand but i feel like it would be a waste of time.

  • Jaymac

    What seems to be missing everywhere, including Congress, is an appreciation of just what a professional military force signifies. Except for the Guards and the reservists, who are dying from IEDs because they are the drivers, the combat forces are self-styled professionals, the US foreign legion. Their profession is killing.

    These killings and many others not reported … and all covered up … are the direct and foreseeable consequences of having a professional force. If Bush had to rely on a conscript force, we would not be in Iraq at all. A democratic republic must not have a standing army that can enable a simpleminded and zealot leadership to drag the country into war as Shrub has done.

    Our brave professionals wearing ceramic armor, living in walled medieval forts and driving Abrams tanks and other armored vehicles taunt and mock their enemy, who fight with Kalashnikovs and wear dishdashas and turbans. These rag tag tribesmen humiliated the British Army in 1922 just as they humiliate the american marines and army in 2006. So who has courage.

    Ours is not the Army of the United States, as it was called in World War II, but the US Army. There is a big difference. Does this Republic need a professional army or a marine corps at all? Is it constitutional for the Guards to fight outside the US territorial borders.

    Support the troops? — they’re professional killers, not draftees. They are a world class embarrassment.

  • Jim Smith

    As a former combat Marine that spent 12 years in the Marine Corps I find the killing of “innocent” civilians a regretable by product of a unconventional war, but in no way do I find the action in itself a capital offense. What troubles me more than the killing is the question of integrity as far as any alleged “cover up”.

    Marines are honorable men (and women) performing a noble task, defending the freedoms of all of us “bloggers”. A cover up, misrepresntations of the facts, and lying bring discredit to a Corps that has exemplified the ideals that this great nation was founded upon

  • BOOO

    William Gardner is really retarded. In #86 he said: ” Several of our soldiers have been killed in Iraq and thier bodies stripped of clothing and weapons. Who is to say the Insurgents didnt use American weapons they took off dead soldiers and do this themselves.”

    So the iraqis were so smart that they killed the civilians with American weapons and invited American soldiers to the scene to take pictures and bribed them to report to their commander that those people were killed by a roadside bomb? What a good plot!

  • William Gardner

    I need to apologize i didnt mean everybody when i said ” you people have no idea” some of you do [Edited] Scrowler said it best.

  • Anti W Gardner

    The girls killed inside Khafif’s house alone were aged 14, 10, 5, 3 and 1, according to death certificates. Abdul Hamid Hassan Ali, 76, who was in wheelchair since diabetes forced a leg amputation years ago, 66-year-old wife, Khamisa Tuma Ali, were three of the middle-aged men of their family, at least one daughter-in-law and four children–4-year-old Abdullah, 8-year-old Iman, 5-year-old Abdul Rahman and 2-month-old Asia and more.
    The remains of the 24 lie today in a single cemetery, called Martyrs’ Graveyard
    Please for God’s sake, Mr. Gardner, Mr. Carter and the other obtuse and imprudent human being that cannot think should shut their sullied mouth

  • Roderick Beck

    Dave Nalle is incorrect in claiming that the Marines started an investigation not long after the massacre. Rather they began a coverup that was only
    blown by the press. Nalle is engaging in classic right wing damage control.

  • William Gardner

    [Edited] Jim smith i agree with everything you said but the Military isnt threw with its investigation and we can only wait and see.

  • Roderick Beck

    Jim,

    My father served honorably in the Korean war. His view was that the military was the last bastion of conformism and mediocrity. Indeed, his view was that
    the institution has been treated as a sacred cow.

    Let’s talk about the real military. The military is an interest group like any other. To try to portray as above human self interest is naive. The US military will always find justification for more money, more fancy weapons, etc.

  • http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ nobody

    Dave “On the positive side” Nalle: Your feeble attempt to intrument a reprieve to those beasts is preposterous.
    Gonzo “ummm…” Marx: Where’s your staying power…?
    Zing “stop defending this shit” zing: Foul language never made a good man smarter :)
    William “You people make me sick!” Gardner: You, sir , are a genuine aberration of a human being who shouldn’t be let out of your halfway house without being properly medicated and supervised. Running thru the streets of Baghdad on a Humvee and armed to the last tooth doesn’t make you a better man, nor braver, nor better informed. Don’t know how this blog ever made it to google; where’s the debate?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Roderick, I clarified that in comment #12. Those immediately involved did attempt a coverup, but when it was brought to the attention of those higher up in the chain of command an investigation was initiated and has now been completed. And there WAS some investigation almost immediately after the event, because photos were taken of the bodies on site, and those bodies weren’t left sitting there for 3 months.

    Dave

  • Clavos

    You make some interesting points, Jaymac, but I can’t agree with this:

    “If Bush had to rely on a conscript force, we would not be in Iraq at all.”

    In the 1960s, Kennedy was able to involve us in Vietnam and LBJ was able to greatly esacalate and prolong our involvement using mostly draftees, of which I was one. The fact that most of us sent over there were draftees didn’t even slow them down.

    That said, I think your central point about the danger of our current means of staffing the military with only volunteers is a good one; we ARE in danger of having our military become purely mercenary. There is also the problem of much of the country no longer having a vested interest in the quality of our armed forces, and in how they are managed.

    The best solution to this is reinstatement of the draft on a truly universal basis (a la the Israelis). Only then will we once again have a true citizen militia as envisioned by the Founding Fathers.

  • William Gardner

    Anti W Gardner agian let me repeat myself i could careless what Iraqi Nationals Claim we did. Until the Military comesout and say our soldiers did this im not going to believeit. You expect me to take the word of an Iraqi National, the same people who dig up thier own dead and leave the remains for the dogs to eat just so they can hide weapons, then you are crazy.

  • Always A Marine

    It’s very interesting and somewhat discomforting to sit here and read the comments posted. As for Dave’s comment regarding adopting the Nazi standards as our own, I agree that is not the way to go. As a Marine, I find it more that a little disappointing to see our soldiers and Marines being compared to Nazi’s, the Mafia, or Hitler. It is equally disappointing to see comments like “You have no right to second guess anything they did” or “Why does America … care about the Muslim world or the rest of the world”. I spent 4 years on active duty making sure that people like Gardener, Zing, and Dave were free to say whatever they like, whether I like it or not. Freedom of speech is not limited to just popular speech. The popular speech usually isn’t what needs protecting.

  • Anti W Gardner

    Mr. Gardner said “You expect me to take the word of an Iraqi National”. Lol, WHO ARE YOU. A human being just like every other human in this lost World we called Planet Earth.

    Maybe you forgot something, or maybe you have not actually think this through, the moment a rumor occurs, with more than 10 people talking, then there must be some truth in it.

    You can see how sensible you are Mr. Gardner. Why did the Military backtracked their stories, you in no way thought of that, why will one of the soldiers that carried the dead young girl told her mum that the girl hunts her in her dream, never thought of that either, or why did one of the Soldiers called her parents to find him a good lawyer if he did not do anything bad, never thought of that either.

    I just think you are one of those down low brothers that believe it is not bad.

    Your name really befits you, “Gardner”, please go cultivate the ground and grow some more trees so that the World can breathe better. Let levelheaded and unprejudiced humans leave comment on this blog.

  • Danyel

    I am not a member of the military. However, hearing stories of what is going on over there is very similair to Vietnam. Our UNIFORMED soldiers don’t know who or where their enemies are. Our enemies are not in uniforms, they all look like the civilians- kids, women and men involved in the killing of innocent American soliders. Just like in Vietnam, woman and children take up arms and plant road side bombs and kill our men, mostly young men. A road side bomb had just attacked their convoy, one of their friends was killed. They didn’t know who did it but went to find out. In rage and emotional disturbance they went into the houses after killing the two people in the cab. The houses were very close to where the bomb detonated. Hell ya, if I was a marine (and mine you I’m a non violent woman) I would be suspicious, scared, vengeful. I would go ballastic and want revenge on the people closest to my dead friend and the bomb. Soilders are human and humans are not perfect. There is a breaking point. I can see myself doing what they did. Sorry you folks who don’t want to put yourselves in their positions or who, because your against the war, you condemn all bad and unfortunate violence that comes along with war. Get your damn heads out of the sand. If these insurgents, men, woman AND CHILDREN would stop the violence against our men, then things like this would not happen. We are a democracy and in wars its to our disadvantage because most of our enemies do not adhere by the rules of engagement. They are killers and savages. The US military have their hands bound in the feild by proper and decent rules of engagement when it has NEVER been given to them. So screw it- once in awhile people need to be taught a lesson. Even if you are a 3 year old living in a house with terrorist. Oops. Our enemies wouldn’t care – why should we. Osama Bin Laden didn’t care when there were daycares and schools in and around the world trade centers. And neither would these barbaric insurgents. So get a life and support your neighbors who are fighting in Iraq. God knows most Americans are too selfish, weak and would never leave the comforts of the US to fight for their country, their families and their way of life. So don’t judge nor damn these soldiers. These kids are already so screwed up with pstd what do you expect to happen when you get bombed and your in shock and rage and your buddy gets killed. I’d probably and YOU CAN’T SAY YOU WOULDN’T IN THAT SITUATION- do the same exact thing. SO get off your high horse you selfish, ignorant and forgetful of 9/11 [Edited].

  • scowler

    “nobody”…. Your comments are not worthy of the cyberspace they so obnoxiously occupy.
    “anti W Gardner”…. Your statements of “righteous indignation” are a pathetic imitation of original thought.
    Of all the post-ers I have read tonight, only Mr. Gardner has actually been in the fighting that all the rest of us armchair sitters are commenting on and passing judgement about. Mr. Miller as a combat veteran also has a leg to stand on. The rest of us are truly unqualified to pass judgement. We can have our own opinions based on our personal “moral compass” but we should be very careful about passing blanket verdicts against these soldiers without “walking a mile in their shoes”.

  • don

    I can in no way condoned the killing of any one including capital murder. But in the case of these killings. In war you are programed that the enemy is of no value and less than human and after a while you will believe this and then with the natural feeling of revenge and rage terrible things will happen. Good troops only do as they are conditioned and programmed. Our troops are stetched and are living on the edge every day. Think of your worse fears, like falling and then imagine what it would be like to hang on to a thin thread 24hrs/7days a week. If these troops are punished severly then I say let this administration suffer the same consequences. Listen ! our children who are over in this war are not natural borne killers. These are our kids who will NEVER be the same,who have been brain washed against every thing we tried to instill in them about empathy and love. This administration is so protective to prevent the citizens of this country to see the body bags annd the coffins of our boys and girls. so the impact of this war is so hidden to the public, and now they make such an issue of this ordeal.IO hate killing and murder in all ways. But this administration has made the decision to enter this war and Bush, Cheney and Rumsfield are just as guilty as our troops.

  • William Tell

    This is the third incident at this location. The last killed 9 or l4 marines.
    Those in the taxicab were spotters as were
    many of those in the nearby houses.
    There is a much more efficient way of hanlding this without Americans getting killed.
    These people have no value for life. They execute people daily at a nearby bridge one was
    a captured American Marine they disemboweled to the cheers of the residents of Haditha.
    If you think these people are nice people and they will accept a democracy, think again.

  • http://www.iranbodycount.org/ nobody

    Now I’m really afraid, Danyel… I hope you’re not my neighbor.

  • Anti W Gardner

    Mr. Danyel or whatever your name is, your garbage comment has been read, you can now go to bed and buy yourself a beer, thanks

    Have you been arrested for Domestic violence before, so just because your friend abused you, that means you can go ballistic and kick his or her ass, then something potentially damaging your brain.

    Listen like a bird and talk like a wise person, don’t just slink up here and start chatting away, please do not do that, this is a stern issue.

  • Brad

    Referring to the mercenary comment I’d like any of you to refer to a conversation that took place at the end of the last draft between William Westmoreland and Milton Friedman. I will find a verbatim quote of it and post.

  • Brad

    Mr. Westmoreland was providing testimony for a commision when he stated he did not want command an army of mercenaries.

    Mr. Friedman (interrupting): General, would you rather command an army of slaves?

    Mr. Westmoreland: I don’t like to hear our patriotic draftees referred to as slaves.

    Mr. Friedman: I don’t like to hear our patriotic volunteers referred to as mercenaries. If they are mercenaries, then I, sir, am a mercenary professor, and you, sir, are a mercenary general; we are served by mercenary physicians, we use a mercenary lawyer, and we get our meat from a mercenary butcher.

  • http://www.iranbodycount.org/ nobody

    And I am a mercenary blogger. Good Night :)

  • William Gardner

    Look I am sorry some of you guys dont understand where im coming from but unless you have been over there in it then you have no idea what it is like. The Iraqi Nationals are two faced they take money from the Army and the insurgents. You cant trust them or take thier word for anything. Only a fool would believe anything they say. It will get you killed over there to trust one of them.I have admitted and never denied that if the Marines did these things then yes it is horrible and they should be punished. But when i see a interview on CNN with a survivor and she is admitting she knew about the ambush ahead of time i have to ask myself. DO i really care what happened to them? The answer is no i dont, they knew about the ambush ahead of time, they where part of it, the girl admitted to it, and they got what they deserve. As far as im concerned they got what they deserve.If the Iraqi people would stop helping the insurgents and help the troops none of this would have happened.

  • scowler

    Point well taken, Mr. Friedman (and Brad).

  • Clavos

    The problem with Mr. Friedman’s answer is that historically, “patriotic volunteer” armies have tended to evolve into armies of men who are in it for the money, or more commonly, for the thrill of the hunt and kill.

  • Always A Marine

    “they knew about the ambush ahead of time, they where part of it, the girl admitted to it, and they got what they deserve.”
    Did the girl or someone else in the house spot for the insurgents? If all they did was remain silent about their knowledge of an IED then they deserve our scorn and a punishment that should be determined by their government, not ours. I’m curious William, you have said several times that you were ‘fighting beside the Marines’ in Iraq. What branch are you in?

  • Walt Poole

    In the interest of full disclosure, you probably would call me a “bleeding liberal”. This whole thing is a real SHAME (& more) for those involved & the whole US. But the real people at fault are W & Co. & those who convinced those Marines & most of the whole US that Iraq ACTUALLY had something to do w/ 9/11. Of course they didn’t, but W & Co. convinced something like over 70 % of those Marines that they did. So they thot they were getting some revenge & only doing what most of us would probably do under similar circumstances. To cite a cliche War is Hell & things like this (or worse) probably happen all the time. We just don’t focus on it as much. The real villains here are W & Co. & those who “voted” for him. This is what you get in a War, whether we like it or not. Those people should have thot about that then.

  • Always A Marine

    “The problem with Mr. Friedman’s answer is that historically, “patriotic volunteer” armies have tended to evolve into armies of men who are in it for the money”
    You obviously haven’t seen the pay scale for enlisted soldiers (E1-E3).
    ;- )

  • pingpong

    i chanced upon this page from google news – and now i wish i hadn’t.
    why an iraqi life is any less valuable than the life of a us or alllied soldier is beyond me. why a us soldier would think that s/he is somehow ‘protecting my freedom’ is beyond me (my freedom is not and has never been an issue with 9/11, war in afghanistan, or iraq. that may be the whipping call of pr in washington, but the reasons given by bin laden etc. are LOCAL to the mid-east). why anyone would think that UNDER AN OCCUPATION iraqi’s should ‘be cooperative’ or risk being executed is way beyond me.

    i think what troubles me is not that some people feel that there is some kind of reason for what the mariines did – sure the situation is everyday extreme – but that does not mean justification. what IS troubling is that from a situation in which iraq is being occupied and a senseless form of government is being installed, that it is somehow viewed as OK to dehumanize ‘iraqis’ in favor of the ‘human’ us troops: it is human that a group of marines would execute civillians because they were in the area, but iraqi’s are inhuman because they are not trustworthy? that is f*$ked up. ‘
    thanks for the opportunity to rant – perhaps i will close by stating that americans are no less ‘special’ than any nationality – and there is really nothing very ‘special’ about america – move around folks, get out of the country, live somewhere else, learn a second language, help low-wage laborers to get a fair wage, etc. – learn to see the shit everywhere except home.

  • Clavos

    You obviously haven’t seen the pay scale for enlisted soldiers (E1-E3).
    ;- )

    Actually, I’ve been paid it; as in Mr. Friedman’s words, a “slave”, though I never thought of it that way. Don’t they keep adding more and more financial incentives these days as the enlistment rates slip?
    Though enlistment rates are up since Iraq, they had been declining for years, right?

  • Always A Marine

    “But the real people at fault are W & Co. & those who convinced those Marines & most of the whole US that Iraq ACTUALLY had something to do w/ 9/11. Of course they didn’t, but W & Co. convinced something like over 70 % of those Marines that they did. So they thot they were getting some revenge & only doing what most of us would probably do under similar circumstances.”
    Don’t be so sure that any Marine in Iraq feels that Saddam had anything to do with the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001. The Marines in Iraq are doing the same thing the soldiers, sailors, and airmen are doing…following orders. They go where they are told. Do you think they get orders to go somewhere and they say ‘nahh, I’m not going’? And if you think the Marines are sitting around in Iraq, foaming at the mouth for a chance to kill someone, you are equally incorrect.

  • Walt Poole

    In the interest of full disclosure, you might call me a “bleeding liberal”. This whole thing is a real SHAME (& more) for those involved & the whole US. The real people at fault are W & Co. & those who convinced those Marines & the most of the whole US that Iraq ACTUALLY had something to do w/ 9/11. Of course they didn’t, but W & Co. convinced something like over 70 % of those Marines that they did. So they thot they were getting some revenge & only doing what most of us would probably do under similar circumstances. To cite a cliche War is Hell & things like this (or worse) probably happen all the time. We just don’t focus on it as much. The real villains here are W & Co. & those who “voted” for him. This is what you get in a War, whether we like it or not.

  • William Gardner

    Always a Marine I am not at liberty to say what i do. I can tell you i work for D.O.D and D.O.S i was located in the sunni triangle. I have worked with S.F. 5-7 cav, 42 I.D. and more. Basically i was there to support 3 rd ID and all branches that fell under it. Plus i should know a little bit about this situation because part of my job was tracking the enemy down from POO sites. Ive done O.P.s, Flash C.P’s, to QRF. I was there When them three car bombs went off killing all them Iraqi Nationals and our military rushed to thier aid and treated every one of them. Ill be the first to tell you that not all Iraqi’s are bad people.But you would be a fool to trust one of them with your life.

  • scowler

    Mr. Poole, thanks for your disclosure. We probably would have figured out your politics without it but thanks anyway. In the same spirit let it be known that I am not a “bleeding liberal”.
    I place your entire commentary in the category of regurgitated liberal media nonsense.

  • John Sara

    Regardless of the outcomes of the investigation into the alleged massacre. This does not change the fact that the war upon Iraq was illegal, immoral and unjustified. When no alleged WMDs etc were found it was decided to call the INVASION, ‘Operation Iraqy Liberation’.
    Sounds like OIL to me.
    Two wrongs do not make a wright.
    Americans are the invading force therefore should
    not expect to be welcome. I do not know how inward looking your Americans are. You call yourself a great nation yet forget about your world policies and double standards which have brought all this hatred.

  • Always A Marine

    Yes, Clavos they have added incentives and bonuses for enlisting in certain fields. But what price tag do you put on risking your life on a daily basis, knowing that once you say “Yes”, there’s no turning back, no quitting.
    BTW, I never considered myself a ‘slave’ while I was on active duty either. I was proud to serve and if asked, would do it again.

  • Clavos

    Whew, I never thought I’d be called a villain for having voted!

  • Clavos

    I understand what you’re saying, Marine, but nevertheless many people do, and for a lot less than you might think. Several guys I knew in Nam did it all over the world for years.

  • William Gardner

    Agian let me clarify myself and say lets not condem these soldiers straight to hell just yet on the words of an Iraqi national. Let our military conduct thier investigation and see what they find. Another thing im not saying Iraqi nationals are inhuman, but lets get real would you trust a crack head to hold your wallet.Hell no you wouldnt so why should are soldiers trust Iraqi Nationals with thier lives when the Iraqi Nationals have proven time after time they are not to be trusted. But letme carify this for you ignorant people ” IF YOU HIDE,PROTECT, AID OR HELP AN INSURGENT THEN YOU ARE AN INSURGENT YOUR DAMN SELF.

  • William Gardner

    John Sara your right! Iraq was alot better off with Saddam in control. …*good grief*

  • William Gardner

    John Sara you talk like your not an American, what country you from. You say “we act like we are a great nation”. I have news for you, America is a great Nation and if it wasnt for us half of Europe would be speaking German right now.

  • Always A Marine

    #141 – I have no doubt about that but they were probably paid better than the average enlistee is paid today, and again, when they want out, they can always quit. That being said, I’m sure there are also those that would do it for far less.
    One thing that has been said and repeated here is that the Marines in question were ‘stressed out’ and ‘snapped under the pressure’. Assuming the allegations to be true, that would be a piss poor defense. If the allegations are proven to be false, there is still questions surrounding the events that took place. I would hope that those responsible would have the intestinal fortitude to take responsibility for their actions and accept the consequences whatever they may be.

  • Always A Marine

    WG – “Agian let me clarify myself… ”
    I think you’ve made yourself perfectly (and painfully) clear. Repeating it in all caps doesn’t make it any more intelligent.

  • William Gardner

    Well some people a little slower then others. Have to repeat things over and over until it sinks in.

  • Poole

    Mr. scowler: TNX & plse SPECIFICALLY tell us all the liberal media here. (BTW Limb says Iraq is SAFER than Wash. D.C. It ISN’T according to Fed figures. And tell that to these Marines).

  • concerned

    I find much that is being written here most disturbing. I served in the British Army for seven years, saw action in the Falklands and did three tours of duty in Northern Ireland (where I was injured by a thrown nail bomb, the officer next to me had his face torn off)…I was a volunteer as are all in the US/British Military and it always mystifies me when professional soldiers complain about the job they are doing, or how stressful it is in the battle situation. Really, if you can’t take the heat stay out of the kitchen.
    There were those in my company who were nothing short of bloody bastards and who loved any chance to use the force that they had available…I would imagine this applies to all armies (yes even the US Marine corp) but and this is a big but, there are very defind rules of engagement. Even if you are scared a professional soldier should be trained to such an extent that his actions are instinctive, not based upon a knee jerk reaction to seeing a fallen comrade. I get the distinct impression that some bloggers here see the Iraqi people as subhuman. Yes of course there are those who will fight at any cost, but in my experience most are just scared civilians who want to see tomorrow and have food to eat. Why did the young girl not forewarn of the bomb, who knows, but I would imagine that the insurgents would be equally unkind to anyone aiding the occupying forces (as they see the US Army)as WG would want to be to her. I do find WG’s comments extremely ignorant though…using his thinking it would have been perfectly fine for me to have come over to the USA and blithely shoot anyone who attended a Sinn Fien rally because the money raised at those functions KNOWINGLY went to support the IRA who ultimately killed a friend of mine.

    Just bear in mind that one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter, it is all a matter of perspective.

  • pingpong

    i chanced upon this page from google news – and now i wish i hadn’t.
    why an iraqi life is any less valuable than the life of a us or alllied soldier is beyond me. why a us soldier would think that s/he is somehow ‘protecting my freedom’ is beyond me (my freedom is not and has never been an issue with 9/11, war in afghanistan, or iraq. that may be the whipping call of pr in washington, but the reasons given by bin laden etc. are LOCAL to the mid-east). why anyone would think that UNDER AN OCCUPATION iraqi’s should ‘be cooperative’ or risk being executed is way beyond me.

    i think what troubles me is not that some people feel that there is some kind of reason for what the mariines did – sure the situation is everyday extreme – but that does not mean justification. what IS troubling is that from a situation in which iraq is being occupied and a senseless form of government is being installed, that it is somehow viewed as OK to dehumanize ‘iraqis’ in favor of the ‘human’ us troops: it is human that a group of marines would execute civillians because they were in the area, but iraqi’s are inhuman because they are not trustworthy? that is f*$ked up. ‘
    thanks for the opportunity to rant – perhaps i will close by stating that americans are no less ‘special’ than any nationality – and there is really nothing very ‘special’ about america – move around folks, get out of the country, live somewhere else, learn a second language, help low-wage laborers to get a fair wage, etc. – learn to see the shit everywhere except home.

  • Dave Nalle

    why an iraqi life is any less valuable than the life of a us or alllied soldier is beyond me.

    This is a question which I’ve raised here quite a few times before. There are some here, like MCH who just don’t care about anyone but their own people, and others like Gardner who have a personal axe to grind with the Iraqis. But the fact remains that we’re all human and there are certain lines which we cannot cross no matter how much we are provoked. To do that lowers us to the same level as the terrorists.

    why a us soldier would think that s/he is somehow ‘protecting my freedom’ is beyond me (my freedom is not and has never been an issue with 9/11, war in afghanistan, or iraq.

    Then you are sadly ignorant of the state of world affairs. We are defending ourselves against a holy war run by fanatics, and if we do not find a way to neutralize them outside of the US, we will be fighting them here. I’m not saying that the Iraq war was the right way to go about dealing with them, but the problem is real, and some solution other than just offering ourselves as victims has to be found.

    that may be the whipping call of pr in washington, but the reasons given by bin laden etc. are LOCAL to the mid-east).

    Incredibly naive. We’ve seen the damage they can do to us. How can you possibly think the problem is confined to the mideast?

    why anyone would think that UNDER AN OCCUPATION iraqi’s should ‘be cooperative’ or risk being executed is way beyond me.

    Well, some Iraqis realize that the occupation is a transitional phase in the process of establishing them with a free and autonomous local government. Despite the lack of coopertation in this instance, there have been many, many cases where Iraqi civilians have provided vital information used to catch large numbers of terrorists.

    what IS troubling is that from a situation in which iraq is being occupied and a senseless form of government is being installed,

    The government which has been installed is far from senseless. It’s actually rather brilliantly conceived – mostly by Iraqis – who have put a lot of thought into how they can create a viable government for a very troubled and diverse country.

    that it is somehow viewed as OK to dehumanize ‘iraqis’ in favor of the ‘human’ us troops: it is human that a group of marines would execute civillians because they were in the area, but iraqi’s are inhuman because they are not trustworthy? that is f*$ked up. ‘

    That’s just Gardner’s crazy rant. I don’t think anyone else here really agrees with him on that.

    perhaps i will close by stating that americans are no less ‘special’ than any nationality – and there is really nothing very ‘special’ about america – move around folks, get out of the country, live somewhere else, learn a second language, help low-wage laborers to get a fair wage, etc. – learn to see the shit everywhere except home.

    I’ve travelled to scores of different countries and lived for substantial periods of time in 7 different countries, including some in the middle east. All told I’ve spent more than a dozen years living overseas. I speak 3 languages besides English, and have relatives who live in two different European nations. The truth is that America IS special. It’s not perfect, but it’s unique among the nations of the world in the nature of its government and the freedom of its people. It’s not as special as it was 30 or 40 or 50 years ago, but it is still relatively free of a lot of the political, social adn economic repression which are ubiquitous elsewhere.

    Dave

  • scowler

    Mr. Poole, it took me a second to recognize your reference to Limb as Limbaugh. In fact I never listen to his show so I won’t comment on what you say he has claimed. As do many wise Americans who find themselves in the political grey zone between the extreme liberal left and the radical right, I try to think for myself and I don’t accept every piece of reported news and commentary as gospel fact.

  • scowler

    Mr. Nalle, I salute and respect your even-handedness.

  • Wee Free

    “Democracy assassinated the family that was here,” – Written on a wall in Haditha

    A lot of people don’t care to lay things straight, Dave inclusive. I sense a spirit of dismisal of this event in your wtite-up and postings, it’s alright that this happen so far it’s was done by our boys, yes the U.S. Military is not a mafia but they are better doing the killing than the insurgents.

    But you can’t seem to remember that our primary reason for being over there is to liberate that country. So what do you want the ordinary Iraqis to make of the liberators if they behave like their deposed evil rulers?

    Could could you please remind me what Saddam is being tried for right now? Murder of innocents. If you justify the behaviour of a few of our troops that seems to be going rotten in a barrel of mush, then shouldn’t Saddam be able to justify the round up, trial and execution of Iraqis unfortunate enough to be near the scene of the attempt on his life in Dujail?
    I guess you will repeat your earlier statement about the mafia now, ‘The responsible marines are better than Saddam was because they are well trained and they only killed a few babies’ or ‘a lot happens in war.’ so “Fog of war” applies to that situation too so we should fair enough to give the responsible marines the benefit of doubt. But does “fairness” come to play only when an American is pulling the trigger?

    We should give the responsible marines the benefit of doubt, innocent until proven guilty right? Well how does that apply to the assasinated Iraqis in this incident and in numerous other unreported incidents. Guilty based on association, because insurgents are hiding amongst them they must all meet the fate of insurgents. No trial or lengthy investigations for those ones (7 months! How Ridiculous), just instant justice from the barrel of a marine’s rifle.

    I can’t question the patriotism of our troops and of Washington, but this issue is about morals more than anything else, if you don’t have it, you are not in the position to demand it from others. If we don’t have the morals to oversee that country then we have no business being there or teaching them how to live their life.

    Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely, Saddam/Iraq vis-a-vis the United States.

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com Christopher Rose

    Dave: your rebuttal in #77 of my point in comment #63 is simply wishful thinking on your part and also completely misses the point.

    The USA is one of the most controversial and, in its own little way, one of the most extreme countries in the world.

    If you think the USA is a well integrated member of the global community you are totally tripping out on daydreams.

    It’s worth repeating: The USA DOES NOT really understand the rest of the world too well and mostly doesn’t seem to want to.

    The fact that you have, in your usual immodest way, simply dismissed the point of view of a non-American only serves to underline and re-inforce my original statement…

  • John Sara

    Just for the record. I am Australian born an yes I am sad to say my sycophant Government has aided and abetted the war criminals who chose to use the word liberation to murder innocent woman and children in Iraq.
    I seem to remember back in 1986 RUMSFELD was photographed shaking hands with SADDAM.
    The coalition of the willing actually supplied all the Chemical, Biological WMD in the first place.
    No personal attack upon you W.G. (and others) I know war is war and unfortunate things happen but do not use the word ‘liberation’ when the people being liberated are being murdered by the liberators. It is estimated between 30,000 to 40,000 innocents have died since the beginning of hostilities. Try explaining to them that being alive under SADDAM was worse than being killed by the Americans.
    I hate to burst your bubble but America can never allow Iraq to become a Democracy. If they did not have a puppet government they would become a Theocracy which would ally themselves with Iran. People do not realize there is a difference between Westernization and Democracy.
    Sorry for going tangent to the discussion on the subject massacre but the surviving child tried to conceal herself underneath her bed and was hunted down then shot.
    A good outcome from this is that all these professional trained killers will one day return to their homeland and try to blend into society. These societies have sown their seeds and will reap their rewards.

  • Bliffle

    Haditha was inevitable once the decision was made to go to war and then occupy the vanquished country. Just as Mi Lai was. For politicians to feign shock and “troubledness” means they are either ignorant or thoughtless. But one supposes that they will do what irresponsible leaders usually do: blame the lowest people in the command chain. The Buck Stops Somewhere Else.

  • John Sara

    Smell the roses. You can’t see the forest for the trees. This war was wrong. Therefore being part of the licensed killing spree does not make it right. W.G. just because you served in this theatre of war and was embedded with the invaders don’t believe that you were helping Iraqis being liberated. People like you are so righteous and have no conscience for their actions. You have made it painfully obvious that you also have assisted in liberating innocent Iraqis to their graves.

  • troll

    having been there and done that WG must continue to demonize ‘the enemy’

    imagine carrying around images of killing a child for the rest of your fucking life

    troll

  • MCH

    “We are defending ourselves against a holy war run by fanatics…”
    – Dave Nalle

    Nalle, please refrain from using the word “we” when referring to others who’ve been brave enough to enlist and put their lives on the line.

  • pingpong

    Then you are sadly ignorant of the state of world affairs. We are defending ourselves against a holy war run by fanatics, and if we do not find a way to neutralize them outside of the US, we will be fighting them here. I’m not saying that the Iraq war was the right way to go about dealing with them, but the problem is real, and some solution other than just offering ourselves as victims has to be found.
    Our disagreement here has nothing to do with who is or is not ignorant of world affairs. Rather, we disagree on interpretation of events. You seem to think that attacks and rhetoric against the US are actually a threat or desire to overrun or dominate the US. I have seen very little evidence of this. People such as Bin Laden are more concerned with setting up a theocracy in the middle east and want America out. Not to say that this is at all desirable, though I can understand the desire of Saudi’s, for example, to want an end to corrupt rule (which favors America economically).
    Since you are traveled, then unless you went as an overpaid ex-pat, you would have seen the pernicious effect of US trade and foreign policy is in many non-industrialized countries. This makes America a pretty easy rhetorical target. And as you can see, the rhetoric works. I believe that it is naive to this there is an ‘enemy’ that can be neutralized. The more the US and its allies work to ‘neutralize,’ the easier is has proven to be to encourage these loosly sympathetic ‘cells.’

    – No point in arguing over the government. Those like me see this as a puppet government that will eventually fall in civil war. You are more optimistic.

    – Not sure where you get off on America being special. Americans have economic freedom and if they don’t have money, then they don’t have freedom. Frankly speaking, America ranks as one of the most intolerant countries I’ve ever lived in.

  • http://www.booklinker.blogspot.com Deano

    I have only a couple of comments – first – while I sympathize with the many soldiers and Marines who are under constant threat of insurgent attack and have no easy way to differentiate the insurgents from the civilians, the wholesale and indiscriminant killing of civilians either by accident or by intent damages the long-term effectiveness of all the US counter-insurgency operations.

    In the long-run, slaughtering a handful of civilians, if that is what has happened at Haditha, does not meet the goals and objectives of the overall mission to stabilize Iraq…it also violates the fundamental principles upon which the US was founded and dishonors the moral code of both the Marine Corps and the warrior ethic.

    Second – to expect that the civilians of Haditha deserve this type of slaughter because they didn’t warn the troops of a possible ambush is asinine. A significant number of Iraqis do not want the occupation, even if a number of them recognize it as a path to greater stability. They do not like being occupied , a fact which is unsurprising. In addition – they have to live there long after the US patrol meanders around the bend and disappears. They are doing what civilians always do – hunker down, protect your family, stay out of the way of the insurgents as much as possible, cooperate when you have to, with whoever you have to. This doesn’t mean they automatically ‘support” the insurgents, but when 10 men with AK-47’s and anti-tank weapons move into your neighborhood and announce they are going to stay for awhile – and some of them are possibly relatives or possibly tied in with the local sheikhs and tribal leaders – what in the hell do you think Joe Nobody with an 8-year old son, a sick mother-in-law and a scared wife is going to do? Be realistic – cooperation only comes with a strong guarantee of security and that hasn’t existing in Iraq since day one.

    Debates such as this one which collectively tar the military as always engaged in cover-ups, or expecting them to have some type of omnipetent capabilities to discern friend from foe need to avoid falling into the tit-for-tat partisanship or using the incident to “prove” the war is unjust or illegal or somehow the fruit of a poisonous tree, or conversely that “Iraqi nationals” are evil and subhuman and deserve what they get. Both of these approaches are blatent self-justifications.

    Opposition or criticism of incidents such as Haditha does not automatically equate to “supporting the enemy” or attacking the troops. Neither does membership in the military or service in Iraq automatically qualify you to ignore the rules of war as you wish or when you wish. If the marines involved did what is being claimed then they are guilty of murder. being active in a combat zone or under stress does not absolve them of their responsbilities. Thousands of other troops are active in Iraq and Afghanistan, under stress and great difficulty and wholesale slaughter and execution of civilians is NOT the norm for them.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Christopher R. wrote:

    The USA is one of the most controversial and, in its own little way, one of the most extreme countries in the world.

    “extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice” – Barry Goldwater.

    If you think the USA is a well integrated member of the global community you are totally tripping out on daydreams.

    I specifically did NOT say this. In fact, I said the opposite of this. What makes the US unique and special is that it isn’t part of the herd mentality and march towards socialism and economic failure which has seized so much of the rest of the world.

    It’s worth repeating: The USA DOES NOT really understand the rest of the world too well and mostly doesn’t seem to want to.

    Generally true. And they don’t understand us or make any effort to. All they do is resent the US for not living like they do and being successful despite it.

    The fact that you have, in your usual immodest way, simply dismissed the point of view of a non-American only serves to underline and re-inforce my original statement…

    The key thing is that unlike many I dismiss their point of view while at the same time understanding it. I’m not dismissing it out of hand, but after having analyzed its merits or lack thereof.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Nalle, please refrain from using the word “we” when referring to others who’ve been brave enough to enlist and put their lives on the line.

    MCH, we’re not living in the world of Starship Troopers, much though you’d like to. In the real world citizens still get to have a voice in and be concerned about what their government is doing even if they haven’t served in the military.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    A lot of people don’t care to lay things straight, Dave inclusive. I sense a spirit of dismisal of this event in your wtite-up and postings,

    I didn’t write the article, so you’re a bit confused here.

    it’s alright that this happen so far it’s was done by our boys, yes the U.S. Military is not a mafia but they are better doing the killing than the insurgents.

    You might want to consider the numerical comparison here. Who have killed more civilians in Iraq, the US or the insurgents. The insurgents win by a factor of more than 10 to 1.

    Dave

  • Dawn

    I have to say “regrettable excesses” is the worse terminology used for the intentional killing of innocent civilians.

    Whatever your political affiliations – can’t we all agree that the actions those marines took in Haditha were closer to monstrous and horrific abuse of authority and a vile aberration of our mission in Iraq – not regrettable excesses?

    You make it sound like they had one too many martinis and barfed in the bushes.

    Dude, you can’t spin murder into something less than murder.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Our disagreement here has nothing to do with who is or is not ignorant of world affairs. Rather, we disagree on interpretation of events. You seem to think that attacks and rhetoric against the US are actually a threat or desire to overrun or dominate the US.

    The truth is that these terrorists CAN strike at the US. It’s not realistic to expect them to overrun us, but they can clearly do a great deal of harm. If you don’t see this you’ve been living in a cave for the last 30 years.

    I have seen very little evidence of this. People such as Bin Laden are more concerned with setting up a theocracy in the middle east and want America out. Not to say that this is at all desirable, though I can understand the desire of Saudi’s, for example, to want an end to corrupt rule (which favors America economically).

    How did attacking the WTC help them set up a theocracy in the middle east again? The US had little interest in interfering with the internal politics of the region beyond protecting oil interests and Israel until they attacked us. We were perfectly willing to buy oil from anyone, even theocrats, if they were reliable.

    Since you are traveled, then unless you went as an overpaid ex-pat, you would have seen the pernicious effect of US trade and foreign policy is in many non-industrialized countries.

    You seem to confuse US trade with the imperialism of the first half of the last century. The effects of US trade are generally extremely positive on every country where we do business, resulting in gradual increases in wages and the standard of living. Many have unrealistic expectations of what the impact of US trade ought to be. Our main interface with foreign nations is through our business interests, and they’re there to do business, and trade eventually benefits everyone, even if it’s only a matter of child laborers earning 40 cents an hour instead of 25 cents an hour – that’s still an enormous improvement in wages from their perspective.

    This makes America a pretty easy rhetorical target. And as you can see, the rhetoric works. I believe that it is naive to this there is an ‘enemy’ that can be neutralized. The more the US and its allies work to ‘neutralize,’ the easier is has proven to be to encourage these loosly sympathetic ‘cells.’

    Except that the level of terrorist activity within the US since 9/11 does not seem to have increased, while apprehension of terrorists has.

    - Not sure where you get off on America being special. Americans have economic freedom and if they don’t have money, then they don’t have freedom.

    Ah, but the key thing is that every American has an opportunity to have money, and the truth is that even our poorest are better off in material welfare than the average citizens of most of the world.

    Frankly speaking, America ranks as one of the most intolerant countries I’ve ever lived in.

    Then I can’t imagine where you’ve been living. Every country I’ve lived in or traveled in has been more racially, socially and religiously intolerant than the US with only a couple of exceptions. The entire continent of Africa is engaged in genocidal race warfare, so they’re right out. The entire middle east is dominated by cultures which are racially, religiously and socially totally intolerant. Southeast asians are among the most racist and clannish people I’ve ever encountered. Europe holds itself out as a model of tolerance, but the truth is very different. The average European is strongly racist and xenophobic and it’s getting worse. Nazism and nativism are on the rise all over the continent, even in England. Even in the Scandinavian countries their famous tolerance has led to a backlash because of the behavior of the immigrants they foolishly allowed into their closed ecopolitical systems. I remember a conversation I had with a German acquaintance a few years ago in which he maintained that black people couldn’t learn or understand things you told them because they have an extra layer of skin.

    I’ll give you Australia and Canada. Aside form ongoing prejudice against their ethnic minorities, they’re pretty much comparable to the US as far as tolerance goes.

    Dave

  • http://secondvibe.blogspot.com Q Bit

    Dave:
    You might want to consider the numerical comparison here. Who have killed more civilians in Iraq, the US or the insurgents. The insurgents win by a factor of more than 10 to 1.

    That’s bull shit. You are talking like the Rummy Clowns.

    Simply put, there wasn’t any insurgency before the US invasion.

    People are dying everyday in Iraq. In principle, every death can be blamed on the US invasion and rightfully so – it doesn’t really matter if it had occured from an American Bullet or an insurgent bullet.

    In any case it is highly unlikely that the deaths from insurgency outnumber those from American Bullets and Bombs.

    ******
    Bring back the troops. Don’t let the right wing propaganda muddle the reality. Staying in Iraq will only result in more deaths on both sides. From when this is an acceptable situation?

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com Christopher Rose

    Dave, your #160 is a perfect example of the points I made. I can’t decide whether I’m pleased to be right or depressed because you STILL just don’t get it.

    “The key thing is that unlike many I dismiss their point of view while at the same time understanding it. I’m not dismissing it out of hand, but after having analyzed its merits or lack thereof.”

    Based on what you’ve written about Europe here on BC, you don’t get it at all. You’re a classic example of the man who knows so much but understands so little.

    You’re not an accountant are you? You sure talk like someone who knows the price of everything but not its value…

  • Dave Nalle

    Q Bit, sorry, I can’t accept your argument. People were dying at a rate of over 1000 per month for almost 40 years under Saddam. We haven’t made things any worse, we’ve just changed the parameters under which they’re dying.

    And Christopher, your Eurocentric prejudices are showing, and it’s you who don’t get it. I know exactly what you and others, including many in the US, see as so attractive in the European approach to rights, society and government, and unlike those who have bought into it, I look at it from the outside, can weigh the evidence and see how absolutely bankrupt a system it is. The articles I’ve written here on BC merely illustrate and lay out some of the facts of the situation.

    As for the value of things, nothing has value if you have to give up fundamental freedoms to purchase it.

    Dave

  • troll

    *People were dying at a rate of over 1000 per month for almost 40 years under Saddam.*

    Dave – I assume that you mean that these deaths were the direct result of Bathist violence

    – source please

    troll

  • http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ nobody

    Dave, give it a rest; you must be exhausted, poor thing, doing all that research on infanticide and bestiality must really play tricks with your head.

  • Wee Free

    Dave either you wrote the article or not you are still insisting on begging the question.

    If we are all to close our eyes tightly and imagine that Iraqi insurgents have killed more civilians than U.S. fire power has since the war started, then does that fallacy allow us to join the insurgebts in wantonly killing. Is this a way of admitting defeat…if you can’t beat em’ you join em?
    Insurgent killing Innocent Iraqis, U.S. military massacring innocent Iraqis, innocent civilians getting killed any which way you look. Who is right depends on which side you are on, forget ethics, forget morals, forget international credibility.
    What happens the next time we try to build a Coalition of the “Needy”? Where would our credibility be then? No small wonder Iran can thumb it’s nose at us now, Ahmedijad knows fully well we can’t come at him alone without losing some foot hold in another crucial part of the world, and he also knows the US can’t gather any reasonable coalition because we don’t have the credibility to approach worthy allies for military support. That’s why he looks relaxed for a person that is living dangerously while the political and policy making leaders in the US grow gray and wrinkly with the effort of solving the equation that is Iran.

    But did you say a thousand deaths per month under Saddam, could you back-up that allegation with some solid proven facts? Yes a lot of deaths under Saddam, but the U.S. had a hand in them. From the days of the U.S. backed and actively encouraged war with Iran to the days of the U.N. sactions, we have been stiring the pot of that unfortunate nation counter clockwise for a long while now.

    I hope persons like you will stand clear of the flag pole someday so you could have a broader view of the horizon.

  • Fu Hong Ma

    I think it’s sad that civilians are being killed. Innocent lives are being sacrificed to gain some progress in the war to stabilize Iraq. The marines involved in the killings should be under investigation and charged with the innocent killings if they did indeed commit these crimes. I don’t think we should be in war with Iraq because we are not gaining any progress. This report only shows that the only progress we are gaining in the war against Iraq is innocent lives of civilians being killed. All we are gaining is more casualties. Is that the price we have to pay to stabilize Iraq? I think it’s just wrong to sacrifice lives of innocent civilians in the heat of battle.

  • http://www.richardbrodie.com/ Richard Brodie

    What can you expect when young men from the 21st Century are sent back in time to try and deal with a 7th Century society engaged in barbaric internecine strife?

    As long as primitive minds are still controlled by a religion conceived in and appropriate to the early Dark Ages, there will be an inevitable return to perpetual tribal civil war no matter how hard we try to impose an alien modern political form on them.

  • Bliffle

    Dave: “And Christopher, your Eurocentric prejudices are showing, and it’s you who don’t get it. I know exactly what you and others, including many in the US, see as so attractive in the European approach to rights, society and government, and unlike those who have bought into it, I look at it from the outside, can weigh the evidence and see how absolutely bankrupt a system it is.”

    A lot of truth here. Sad truth, alas. The Euro approach seems to be to speak nobly but not act. Because to act would make one subject to criticism. And the easiest way to do that is to speak against the US.

  • sr

    Dusty, Not sure if we understand your liberal point of view. Would think as you a more conservative following would instill the desired efect called for. You are 100% correct more of this affirmative that President Nixon would hold true in our current uncertainty. President Carter seemed to distance himself reguarding the Hindasa Treaty. Will respect your opinion. Would you also concur the UN may not be up for tasking this?

    Great comment dude.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    People were dying at a rate of over 1000 per month for almost 40 years under Saddam.*

    Dave – I assume that you mean that these deaths were the direct result of Bathist violence

    – source please

    Troll, are you seriously asking for a source on Saddam’s record of institutionalized murder and genocide? I find it hard to believe you’ve missed out on it.

    Here’s one source on the Anfal Campaign where at least 100,000 Kurds were murdered in 1988.

    Then there were the purges in 1991 where over 250,000 Shia and Kurds were killed after the Gulf War.

    These are conservative estimates of death from Human Rights Watch. Those 350,000 alone are substantial, but these huge murder sprees are just part of the ongoing murder of Iraqi civilians which went on day to day. Saddam would regularly ‘cleanse’ his many prisons and just have all the prisoners – mostly political – taken out and shot a few hundred or even several thousand at a time adding up to thousands every year. Plus there were many smaller massacres and genocides. Given the scope of his other crimes, the occasional village of a few thousand people wiped out hardly ticks the register. Then there were the women abducted to rape rooms and the summary executions of prostitutes and thieves. It goes on and on.

    For a detailed overview of all the human rights abused in Iraq, check out this document from the British government, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.

    Estimating 1000 deaths per month is ridiculously low for a regime which HRW described as engaging in ‘systematized murder’ of its own population.

    Dave

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com Christopher Rose

    Dave, too much knowledge is definitely a dangerous thing in your case. You know more than you can process and are currently locked into a false and overly rigid mindset.

    Keep dreaming the impossible dream. You really are deluding yourself.

    A) I don’t have Eurocentric prejudices. Prejudice and excessive nationalism are your gig not mine.

    B) Europe’s system is bankrupt? Spoken with all the arrogance and ignorance only an accountant could muster.

    C) I think living in a walled compound is causig you to have delusions of grandeur. You’ve clearly lost the ability to think outside your own little box.

  • Carter

    You people you people you people…

    You don’t get it. You sit here and talk about rules. You talk in terms of technicalities and morality and protocols, as if guarding a convoy is a matter of following the agenda in a meeting.

    It isn’t. What it is is getting into a Hummvee and hoping that this time – this time – nobody gets killed. And then, somebody gets killed. And others will yell, “That’s that! They just do this to us and we’re supposed to smile and take it!?!”

    It’s quaint really.

    I didn’t compare Marines to Nazis – I contrasted them with Nazis. Both Nazis and Marines exist on a moral scale – the same scale that, at the far enlightened end, holds Buddha and Jesus Christ and so forth. It’s a means of measuring.

    But no matter what you say, the basic point is your arguments are technicalistic in nature but they simply don’t address this fact:

    That you want these young Marines to just drive in their convoys to resupply civilian infrastructure in Iraq and die when attacked and do nothing about it.

    To this you will regressively argue about how the US shouldn’t be in Iraq and all that. As if there weren’t a job to do. And to justify the morally inexcusable position of leaving Saddam Hussein in power when we had the chance to remove him. (Why not some other dictator?, you’ll ask. Answer: You gotta start somewhere!)

    (By the way, if the US weren’t in Iraq what do you think Afghanistan would look like now? I venture the guess it would be rife with Saudi and Syrian suicide bombers blowing up Nato convoys at every possible chance. Iraq just happens to be a shorter trip to make.)

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com Christopher Rose

    Bliffle, if you’re joining Mr Nalle’s US-centric delusion, how about you put some factual bones on your empty and arrogant assertions. That or put your head back where it belongs…

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com Christopher Rose

    And Saddam’s violence?

    Now let me think, which government was it that armed Saddam with chemical and biological weapons in the first place?

    Apparently it’s alright to create and support despotic murderers when they are being used as surrogates to attack yet more enemies, in this case Iran.

    When they then go on to act independently and use these weapons for their own purposes, something NOBODY in this country’s government apparently could foresee, they become tyrants.

    It is the inept political decisions of a powerful but naive country that is the direct cause of the current situation. The USA’s actions in this region have been even worse than the previous international efforts and it’s about time it started to act more in keeping with its stature and not its immaturity.

  • John Sara

    Did somebody mention the word massacre?
    Lets not get off track. You don’t have to wait for the outcome of the two separate enquiries to not be disgusted by what has happened to woman and children in this instance.
    Whilst we’re on the topic of Iraq just remember how you were fooled into invading the nation in the first place. WMD comes to mind yet after this lame argument a complete turnaround and suddenly its the liberation of the Iraqis and the removing of power of the despot Saddam.
    Good reason for a war?
    Who made America the Police of the world?
    Stop looking for excuses after the fact in trying to justify this illegal, immoral and unethical war.
    PS
    There are other despots ruling nations and committing atrocities throughout the world.
    More people are suffering in Sudan at present but as they say, “No food, No OIL, No hope.”
    Pakistan has harbord terrorist, traded in nuclear arms and information and committed genocide but they happen to be an ally. How typically hypocritical.

  • troll

    *Troll, are you seriously asking for a source on Saddam’s record of institutionalized murder and genocide? I find it hard to believe you’ve missed out on it.*

    just trying to get a handle on your numbers – about 1/2 million over 40 years of suppressed anti-Bathist rebellions seemed arbitrary (and low)

    …which I see it was

    thanks for the links

    troll

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Sorry Troll, no one was counting heads when they threw people in the mass graves. Like everyone else I have to go with the estimates from the human rights organizations.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Now let me think, which government was it that armed Saddam with chemical and biological weapons in the first place?

    Apparently it’s alright to create and support despotic murderers when they are being used as surrogates to attack yet more enemies, in this case Iran.

    That’s the way the ‘great game’ is played, Christopher. You’re naive if you think otherwise. And trying to blame us for arming Saddam is a perfect example of your eurocentric delusion. Guilt goes to the person who used the arms, not those who made them or sold them. This self-serving denial of individual responsibility is EXACTLY what is wrong with the current European worldview.

    When they then go on to act independently and use these weapons for their own purposes, something NOBODY in this country’s government apparently could foresee, they become tyrants.

    Wrong, and again a perfect example of that degenerate european worldview. They don’t need advanced arms to be tyrants. You can be a tyrant with a knife or a club. The weapons don’t make the tyrants, the tyrants just choose to use the weapons to execute their tyrrany and they’d use whatever weapons are available.

    It is the inept political decisions of a powerful but naive country that is the direct cause of the current situation. The USA’s actions in this region have been even worse than the previous international efforts and it’s about time it started to act more in keeping with its stature and not its immaturity.

    The US has been the only major nation willing to take any responsibility at all for the perilous international situation. A false concept of ‘mature’ indifference which results in innaction is the hallmark of the European nations and it’s disgraceful.

    Every comment you post proves how exactly correct my assessment of Europe’s status is.

    Dave

  • MCH

    “As for the value of things, nothing has value if you have to give up fundamental freedoms to purchase it.”
    – Dave Nalle

    Typed courageously on his keyboard from the safety of his fortified compound…

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Strikes me that these actions of American soldiers are only making a mockery of the “Iraqi” regime. They acted as combatants on their own territiory rather than the trustees of a developing government. It also strikes me that the time is approaching when the Iraqi government will be calling for the withdrawal of the Americans – precisely because of these kinds of actions.

    I’m not sitting on a high horse here and condemning anything – the nature of the enemy tha Americans face in Iraq is vicious and unrelenting. Q Bit’s article does quote the phrase, “the insurgent stronghold of Haditha.” But Iraq is not the States and the Americans are there on questionable grounds at best.

  • http://secondvibe.blogspot.com Q Bit

    #167 by Dave:

    Now Saddam is the benchmark?

  • http://www.richardbrodie.com/ Richard Brodie

    If there are less Iraqis being killed now than under Hussein’s reign, then we did the wrong thing. Personally I hope Hussein manages to regain power. He knew how to keep the Sunni minority in charge and was keeping the dangerous Shiites in check. And he was making a positive contribution to humanity by limiting the number of Muslims. The fewer Muslims there are in the world the fewer Islamic terrorists there will be. And Sunnis are content with limiting their killing to other Muslim factions, unlike the obnoxious Shiites who like to make trouble for the non-Muslim world.

    And it is baloney to try and justify Bush’s globalistic military adventurism by saying that we gave the Iraqis “freedom”. Even if we had, they wouldn’t know what to do with it, and would soon enough revert to their barbaric ways. But the fact is, all we gave them is the chance to set up a copycat version of the corrupt modern American welfare state system, with all its stupid departments and regulatory agencies, which are the antithesis of real liberty.

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com Christopher Rose

    #183 In which David Nalle exposes the supreme arrogance in the hearts of some Americans. Being pro-weapons generally, whether on the streets of the USA or in the wider world, this extremist can not see the simple fact that people can’t use weapons they don’t have.

    And pointing this out is apparently an “eurocentric delusion”. What monumental ignorance and stupidity! You can cling to this psychological safety blanket all you want Dave but it’s not going to change a thing; “That’s the way the great game is played” indeed. What childish pre-war terminology you choose to support your rampant egomania!

    Now the view of 350 million people is simply a “degenerate European worldview”. Truly there are none so blind as those that can not see. Frankly, I’d rather trust Jet’s currently poor state of vision than the clouded view of an intellectually corrupt fanatic like you.

    If we Europeans are now to be dismissed as extreme and degenerate, that pretty much leaves the USA isolated and alone. You don’t trust Canada, you have nothing but contempt for the whole of South America, so you’re reduced to South Korea and Japan as your supporters? What a deluded pile of political drivel you spout Nalle.

    The main perilous world situation that I see is that some over-confident and massively ignorant young country is flexing its muscles and showing offensive contempt even towards its allies.

    You want to step out of your little walled compund a liitle more often, mate, you’re seeing dangers and enemies where there are none and now mistaking your friends for enemies too.

    Truly your country is doomed if this paranoid delusion becomes the majority view. Hopefully the rest of your adopted country will prove to be a little more grounded in reality than the delusional mindset you are clinging to so desperately…

  • Dave Nalle

    #183 In which David Nalle exposes the supreme arrogance in the hearts of some Americans. Being pro-weapons generally, whether on the streets of the USA or in the wider world, this extremist can not see the simple fact that people can’t use weapons they don’t have.

    When you come up with the magic button to make all weapons disappear let me know. Until then prohibition will never keep weapons out of the hands of terrorists and criminals and people will continue to do violence with whatever weapons are at hand.

    And pointing this out is apparently an “eurocentric delusion”. What monumental ignorance and stupidity!

    Indeed, clinging to the European delusion that violence can be controlled by attempting to ban weapons is monumentally ignorant and stupid.

    You can cling to this psychological safety blanket all you want Dave but it’s not going to change a thing; “That’s the way the great game is played” indeed. What childish pre-war terminology you choose to support your rampant egomania!

    Pre war? Pre WW1 even.

    Now the view of 350 million people is simply a “degenerate European worldview”. Truly there are none so blind as those that can not see. Frankly, I’d rather trust Jet’s currently poor state of vision than the clouded view of an intellectually corrupt fanatic like you.

    You know as well as I do that not every one of the people of Europe subscribe to the corrupt and decadent ideology of the ruling bureaucratic and intellectual classes. This has become very clear as extremist movements sprout up all over the place in reaction against the degeneracy of the established system there. People are really pissed off about the way things are going in the EU. You can choose not to see or acknowledge it, but it’s true.

    If we Europeans are now to be dismissed as extreme and degenerate, that pretty much leaves the USA isolated and alone. You don’t trust Canada, you have nothing but contempt for the whole of South America, so you’re reduced to South Korea and Japan as your supporters? What a deluded pile of political drivel you spout Nalle.

    I’ve got no particular love for the South Koreans of the Japanese, actually, I feel much the same way about Canada as I do about Europe, and I haven’t ever expressed an opinion on South America. The problem with Europe is not the people – they’re a fine bunch of folks for the most part – it’s the entrenched bureaucratic class which runs the EU and most of the major nations with little or no accountability.

    The main perilous world situation that I see is that some over-confident and massively ignorant young country is flexing its muscles and showing offensive contempt even towards its allies.

    What ‘young’ country would that be? The US has a proven governmental system which has been in place continuously for substantially longer than the governments of France, Italy, Germany and Spain.

    You want to step out of your little walled compund a liitle more often, mate, you’re seeing dangers and enemies where there are none and now mistaking your friends for enemies too.

    Europeans are my friends. Eurosocialism is not.

    Truly your country is doomed if this paranoid delusion becomes the majority view. Hopefully the rest of your adopted country will prove to be a little more grounded in reality than the delusional mindset you are clinging to so desperately…

    You really are desperately confused. You also display the amazing arrogant parochialism which is uniquely European. With every comment you make you just prove me right.

    Dave

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com Christopher Rose

    “You really are desperately confused. You also display the amazing arrogant parochialism which is uniquely [American]. With every comment you make you just prove me right.”

    Right back at you…

  • Dave Nalle

    Maybe Europe and America are closer than we realize…

    Dave

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com Christopher Rose

    Correction: closer than you realize…

    ;-)

  • http://www.codexalimentarious.com/ Richard Brodie

    Dave, Christopher is blind to claim that Europe is some kind of wonderful socialistic paradise (does he perhaps have a vested interest as one of the EU “intellectual and bureaucratic elite”?), but you are also blind to claim that

    the US has a proven governmental system which has been in place continuously for substantially longer than the governments of France, Italy, Germany and Spain.

    America has a bloated governmental system, with a nightmarish, ever burgeoning mountain of laws, rules, and regulations varying from useless to downright destructive; a constitutionally illegal Fourth Branch of lobbyists through which industries (like the pharmceutical) are able to coopt and virtually run the very agencies (like the FDA) ostensibly set up to “regulate” them; regulatory agencies, which are part of the executive branch, allowed to essentially legislate by implementing non-democratic “rules” (laws) inspired by lobbyists hired by big corporations, and designed to stiffle competition; an onerous, privacy-invading taxing system that the founding fathers would have abhorred; etc.

    We are just as bad, in our own deluded way, as Europe is – and just as stupid, to be swinging the gates wide open to alien invaders who will, in both cases, finish off the self-destruction of our respective civilizations.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Richard, I agree that our system is getting more and more encrusted with crap. But the basic structure remains sound and it does continue to work in general as it has for 200 years.

    We also handle immigration a great deal better than the Europeans do, but that’s a separate issue.

    Dave

  • http://www.codexalimentarious.com/ Richard Brodie

    I agree that our system is getting more and more encrusted with crap.

    I’m sorry, Dave, but we’re not talking here about a little surface “encrustation”. The mountain of legislative “crap” is so high and so deep and so massive that nothing short of a second American Revolution would be capable of clearing it all away and giving this country a fresh chance. And of course that ain’t gonna happen.

    You got it right when you said to Chris:

    Maybe Europe and America are closer than we realize…

    and I’d say the United States is an even worse variant on the theme of bureaucracy run wild. The only thing that makes us SEEM not quite as bad, YET, is the momentum we are still running on as a result of the incredible amount of wealth that was generated during our first century and a half when we were still economically free of the stiffling requirement to support a huge and obstructive bureaucratic class, and welfare system. But that momentum will eventually come to a dead stop.

    the basic structure remains sound and it does continue to work in general as it has for 200 years.

    Our system bears hardly any resemblance at at to what it was in the early years of the Republic.

  • air industry

    Since many month I was forgetting my anti-american feeling (no WMD, not the good country to attack – guantanamo – abu grahib) , after all, we – people of the rest of the world- have our own problems…..I’m in europe…
    But since I have learn this story of massacre, and now that I read your reactions here,
    I have only one thing to say:
    american people who justify the massacre/shot in the head children-in-line & all ( Haditha and the last one) : YOU MAKE ME SICK

  • Dave Nalle

    Richard, we do still have the Constitution, and every once in a while we remember to refer back to it. That trend could be expanded on and who knows where it would lead us. The point being that the nucleus of a decent, federal republic still exists under neath all the corruption.

    As for becoming like Europe, let’s see how we weather their coming assault on our rights through the UN during this coming year when they’re going to try to ban guns, make homeschooling illegal and impose a UN tax system on us. If we can stop those things from happening then we’re a few steps farther away from becoming Europe.

    As for a second American Revolution, I’m on board. I think it needs to be done politically rather than violently for the most part, but I think it could be done. The problem is that some of those engaged in such an effort are likely to be opposed to the current government for all the wrong reasons and would likely want to make things WORSE than they are now.

    Dave

  • Clavos

    Dave, I have to admit to some ignorance here–how can these things you mention possibly be imposed on us via the UN?

    As for becoming like Europe, let’s see how we weather their coming assault on our rights through the UN during this coming year when they’re going to try to ban guns, make homeschooling illegal and impose a UN tax system on us.

    Wouldn’t we the people and our elected officials (such as they are) in the House and Senate have to acquiesce for this to happen?

  • http://secondvibe.blogspot.com Q Bit

    Dave:
    Richard, we do still have the Constitution, and every once in a while we remember to refer back to it. That trend could be expanded on and who knows where it would lead us. The point being that the nucleus of a decent, federal republic still exists under neath all the corruption.

    In principle – yes. In practice?

    As for a second American Revolution, I’m on board. I think it needs to be done politically rather than violently for the most part, but I think it could be done.

    I seriously doubt if a violent revolution is at all possible in the current institutional system. But I am curious what would be the objectives for your revolution (be it political)? What things are you going to do away with?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    That’s the problem, Q Bit – so many of those who are dissatisfied with the way things are now are unhappy because they want things to be worse that I think we’re better off sticking with the status quo and trying to make small, incremental improvements.

    But, in the fantasy world where I could start it all over, I’d basically go back to the constitution as written, privatize most of the federal government and repeal the 16th amendment.

    Government programs would have to be largely self-funded. If they weren’t able to raise enough money from voluntary fees to pay for their services then they would go away. Taxes would be done by billing the states based on their consumption of federal services and the states would figure out how to tax their citizens. But most taxes would be replaced by specific usage fees.

    Laws which exist purely for purposes of social engineering like the drug laws would be repealed, but we’d preserve the FDA and other oversight agencies which regulate businesses, however they would be funded directly by those businesses. For example the FDA would charge a fee for every drug submitted for approval. We’d also add in the amendment from the bill of rights which was proposed but never approved, to prohibit a standing army.

    Congressmen and Senators should be paid by their state legislatures not the federal government, and those state governments should set their rate of pay, have the ability to withhold pay and to impeach their representatives and/or hold a recall election.

    Hell, there are lots of other ideas, but basically strip the government down to the bare bones, take its hands out of our pockets and its eyes out of our bedrooms.

    Dave

  • http://secondvibe.blogspot.com Q Bit

    Dave:

    Hmm.. you mean less power to the federal government and more power to the states.

    That’s the problem, Q Bit – so many of those who are dissatisfied with the way things are now are unhappy because they want things to be worse that I think we’re better off sticking with the status quo and trying to make small, incremental improvements.

    Realistically, every section of the society is unhappy/dissatisfied for their own reasons (reasonable or not) and even in an ideal world, you cannot have everyone happy/satisfied because that goes against the basic human nature.

    When you say we are better off sticking with the status quo, I would argue that holds almost in an universal sense; as for trying to make small incremental improvements, I am skeptical because any improvement which is adiabatic barely affects the social dynamics because we, as a part of the jungle are efficient enough to adopt to incremental changes without particularly noticing it. Therefore incremental improvements doesn’t really serve the intended purpose of creating a new functionality and appreciation of the visible benefits.

    But, in the fantasy world where I could start it all over, I’d basically go back to the constitution as written, privatize most of the federal government and repeal the 16th amendment.

    I’m not sure if it’s a good idea to go back to the constitution as was. First of all it was written more than 200 years ago and it reflects the right perceptions of governance (and etc) as was appropriate. Fundamentally it’s solid, but the society evolves, so does the geo-eco-political contour and the constitution at any given time period should also reflect that.

    Government programs would have to be largely self-funded. If they weren’t able to raise enough money from voluntary fees to pay for their services then they would go away. Taxes would be done by billing the states based on their consumption of federal services and the states would figure out how to tax their citizens. But most taxes would be replaced by specific usage fees.

    Self-funded government programs are not sustainable. Not even the ones which need to be there. What happens to the welfare and social programs? Are you suggesting if they are not sustainable they should be scrapped?

    Laws which exist purely for purposes of social engineering like the drug laws would be repealed,

    Laws are necessary for social engineering otherwise the wheels won’t turn. Let me put it this way: social engineering laws are like the nuts and bolts; you can have all the pieces but they won’t fit together and therefore the structure won’t function without the nuts and bolts. It’s going to be a mess.

    but we’d preserve the FDA and other oversight agencies which regulate businesses, however they would be funded directly by those businesses. For example the FDA would charge a fee for every drug submitted for approval.

    I am with you here. I would go one step beyond. Government should charge fees for all business/profitable interest approvals and channel some of the resources to social-welfare programs.

    We’d also add in the amendment from the bill of rights which was proposed but never approved, to prohibit a standing army.

    This is controversial. I would rather have a standing army because I don’t see the rest of the world fighting for the Nobel peace prize anytime soon, or in the near future.

    but basically strip the government down to the bare bones, take its hands out of our pockets and its eyes out of our bedrooms.

    A slim govt. would do for me as opposed to the BIG FAT one.