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The Truth Shall Set You Free (If The White House Doesn’t Suppress It)

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Two thousand years ago Jesus walked around as the ultimate pragmatist, claiming that truth would set people free. Recent testimony about how the Bush Administration has suppressed scientific information on global warming has become a sad metaphor for how far we have fallen.

The life changing “truth” Jesus spoke of was knowledge through a relationship with God. From what I’ve read he never tried to trick anyone. He never forced anyone to believe one way or another. He trusted that with enough information people would make the right decision. Compare that to the way President Bush has operated on a myriad of topics, but specifically on the issue of global warming — tactics which have been revealed by recent congressional hearings.

Federal scientists have been pressured to play down global warming.

Climate scientists frequently have been dissuaded from talking to the media about their research.

Interview requests of climate scientists frequently were “routed through the White House” and then turned away or delayed.

Scientific findings have been edited by the White House to reveal more positive findings.

The House Oversight and Government Reform Committee has asked for those documents and, not surprisingly, the White House has been slow to hand them over.

Fear of science is not exclusive to the White House. In an incredible example of cognitive dissonance, Americans spend almost $6000 per person on health care, yet more than half also reject the theory of evolution. We happily enjoy plastic surgery, air travel, and longer life spans, and 13% have never even heard of global warming. Our daily lives are lined with the benefits reaped from science, and we claim not to trust it.

Which principle of Christianity sets it in opposition to science? Why is an increase in truth feared? I don’t recall Jesus ever hiding knowledge. In-fact, most sermons you hear probably revolve around Jesus’ role in expanding God’s revelation, and then letting people make their own decisions based on that information.

It is easy to say you love God. So, Christianity adds a pragmatic check which says you can’t claim to love the unseen if you can’t love that which you can see. Thus, “who ever loves God must love his brother.” Had John faced this current group of believers maybe he would have asked how some can claim to love God while fearing discovered truths.

Lack of faith does not come from accepting science. If anything, it comes from rampant ambivalence on display. Ours is a society that takes what it wants and discards the rest. We accept science the way we accept faith and that, perhaps, is why so many are disgusted with religion. Its fiercest supporters fail to see a disconnect when people who have devoted a lifetime to studying God can somehow find a way practice things that should seem unimaginable. When caught they are excused or defended, a reaction which does not indicate any appreciation of newfound truth, but, rather, the inconvenience of getting caught.

Science now fills that which has been surrendering: a need for truth. This should have been Christianity’s strong-suit. For the believer all truth should be God’s truth. Believing based on selective ignorance is nothing to be proud of. Such thinking corrodes life itself. Many believers are racked with an impressive mixture of guilt, ignorance, and incompatible beliefs, and, in a reversal, their lives are bound by it.

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About FK

  • ProfEssays

    Actually the unrevised versions of Christianity are incompatible with science.

  • Nancy

    IMO science simply lends a greater wonder to the marvel of the Deity’s creations; in no way does it detract or contradict … unless you take the Bible literally, which of course is the entire problem. Perhaps those who disbelieve science should be disallowed from benefitting from it: no phones, electricity, cars, frozen or canned foods … they’d basically have to live on a level of “natural” technology even more basic than the strictest Amish groups.

  • troll

    Nancy says – *IMO science simply lends a greater wonder to the marvel of the Deity’s creations*

    or maybe…that humans create deities lends a greater wonder to the marvel of the natural world – the object of science

  • duane

    Nancy says: Perhaps those who disbelieve science should be disallowed from benefitting from it

    To be fair, most people of faith don’t reject science in its totality. They just reject that which appears to conflict with their beliefs, such as evolution. I’m sure they are willing to believe in chemistry, for example, since they use aspirins and pay the occasional visit to their pharmacist.

    Maybe they should be disallowed from benefitting from evolution. (insert joke here)

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIMW5iYFGhM D’oh

    There has always been internal conflicts within the church when it comes to science, just ask Galileo, among others.

    I think it started as trying to control information “for the public good”, and later became just another way to control. Then the Dark Ages ended, the printing press came and regular people began to read.

    THAT began the battle in earnest.

    It doesn’t help with the silliness of the “original sin” concept, this does quite a bit to undermine the rest of the church’s positions on anything related to science, for obvious reasons.

    The two do not have to be mutually exclusive, and have not been during some points in history, but where science stays out of the religion business, it appears that religion just won’t leave the younger sibling of science alone, due to a fit of jealousy.

    Let’s see if I have some linkage for this one…

    the Tao of D’oh

  • Nancy

    That too, troll.

  • http://thoughtalarm.blogspot.com FK

    Update: They just issued a report which says global warming is likely (90% chance) man-made and unstoppable.

    And, not surprisingly, the new report will not
    change current policy
    .

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIMW5iYFGhM D’oh

    Good stuff, Fred, thanks for the linkage.

    For troll – you put up a nice string theory link, there’s a story touching on all that today that is pertinent to your link, and kind of on this topic.

    Check this bit out.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    The article would be alot more effective if it included at least SOME links to sources supporting all this information on the suppression of global warming theory by the administration. Just asserting it may fly with fellow believers and conspiracy buffs, but it’s not enough to get taken seriously in an article on an open forum like this.

    Hell, just a link to transcripts of the hearings mentioned in the article would have been nice.

    Dave

  • Martin Lav

    “The Truth Shall Set You Free”

    The problem with our society is that we don’t really practice truth at all.

    Jesus meant that you must be honest with yourself in all cases and therefore avoid the feelings of guilt and shame, which prevent you from the feelings that “Heaven” is supposed to create (in you).

    We live by untruths, we stoke them in our society, we allow ourselves to rationalize them in order to maintain that feeling of Heaven on Earth (meaning our feeling of contentment within ourselves). But you really can’t lie to yourself.

    We cheat on taxes.
    We cheat in sports.
    – steroids
    – ball scuffing
    Speed in cars.
    Run red lights.
    Bend the truth.
    I overslept.

  • Truther

    The whole of Jesus’ statement is:
    If you hold to my teachings, than you really are my disciples. Then you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.

    Why do authors who like to quote this line use it for their own needs and forget the “hold to my teachings” part?

  • http://www.chancelucky.blogspot.com chancelucky

    here’s at least one link
    link

    in 2002 W dismissed a report by his own EPA that Global Warming was likely the product of human activity. “I read the report put out by the bureaucracy,” Mr. Bush said

  • http://thoughtalarm.blogspot.com FK

    Truther, because that would be too long for the headline. I don’t think leaving out the first half of the verse alters my point or the meaning of the verse one bit. I explained that Jesus meant “truth” as a true relationship with God. And I tied that concept in with that you can’t claim to know or love God if you don’t know or love of believe in the very things you can see–which, in one example, my example, is science.

  • http://thoughtalarm.blogspot.com FK

    Point well taken, Dave. I can’t re-edit the article now but here are some links.

    Comitte asks for the altered global warming documents.
    The
    committe’s findings

  • Truther

    My point was that Jesus didn’t encourage us to seek the truth of this world, as in science or the best political candidate. He told his followers that he IS the truth.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIMW5iYFGhM D’oh

    Truther, that would all depend on whose version of what he said is read.

    You might be interested in what this site has to say on the topic, especially the Gospel of Thomas.

    “those with two good ears had better listen”

    the Tao of D’oh

  • Zedd

    Jesus meant that you must be honest with yourself in all cases and therefore avoid the feelings of guilt and shame, which prevent you from the feelings that “Heaven” is supposed to create (in you).

    Beautiful!

    There is a constant internal conflict regarding allegiances to important people in your life who have taught you theology vs your own common sense. Many remain closeted in their commitment to what they know vs what they are supposed to believe.

    Its the same with party affiliation and most self defining associations, I presume.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIMW5iYFGhM D’oh

    Zedd, that’s why I tend to go with these thoughts on the subject.

  • Doug Hunter

    It’s interesting to compare religion in the context of global warming. The proponents and propagators of the environmental hysteria operate very similiarly to their more traditional religious counterparts.

    You have the martyrs, those willing to self righteously sacrifice their lifestyle for the ‘greater good’. You have the prophets and doomsday cults, those nutjobs who constantly warn of impending disaster and even time after time when they are proven wrong simply adjust the timeframe and the reason for armegeddon. You have the preachers, like our dear poster, out crying for anyone who will listen and chastizing the unbelievers. You have rituals, and gods, and demons, and sins, and fanatical terrorists, and self righteous stuck up assholes, it’s all very familiar and creepy.

    Global climate change is not an impending catastophe, it’s a part of nature that while, certainly being augmented by human activity, is completely inevitable. Carbon emissions could be viewed just as easily be saving us from the next scheduled ice age as they could be destroying the planet.

    The reason, you, joe public are being whipped into a frenzy are twofold.

    1) It makes a good news story (like fires, death, and terror)

    2) It has the potential to put government in control of industry and put trillions of dollars of wealth at the disposal of politicians, bureacrats, and of course climate research scientists.

    If the public is silly enough to fall for this latest snake oil, perhaps it really is better their wealth is being ‘safeguarded’ for them by the government.

  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIMW5iYFGhM D’oh

    Doug, all I can do is ask if you have seen this story that hit the streets today, much less the rest of the data.

    The fallacious conflation in your second sentence, reveals much.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Yeah, Doug. Read D’Oh’s link. You completely forgot to include the UN’s power grabbing motivation for supporting global warming.

    Dave

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    We live by untruths, we stoke them in our society, we allow ourselves to rationalize them in order to maintain that feeling of Heaven on Earth (meaning our feeling of contentment within ourselves).

    Speak for yourself, Martin.

    But you really can’t lie to yourself.

    Are you familiar with Moonraven?

    Dave

  • Doug Hunter

    I’ve read the information and don’t doubt that warming is ocurring. I know from our previous scare that we’re overdue for another ice age. Did you ever consider that perhaps our carbon emissions are saving us from that? Did you ever consider that change doesn’t necessarily mean bad?

    I don’t see how the world will be much different at + or – a few degrees. Life will go on. The only way to not effect the environment is for a few billion humans to suddenly pass from the face of the earth. Environmentalists have helped that cause. Banning good anti-mesquito chemicals directly costs the lives of hundreds of thousands or millions. Biofuels/ethanol will create a shortage of food that will increase starvation. The percentage of global GDP diverted to try and maintain our current climate will degrade billions of peoples standard of living increasing poverty, starvation, etc.

    I’d be more willing to support actions if there were a good comparison of what it might cost to deal with the consequences versus preventing the warming entirely. I somehow imagine that with all of mankind’s adaptability a few inch rise in the oceans over a period of a hundred years is something we can manage to live through. For instance it might be simpler to just change low level zoning requirements under the assumption that the ocean will eventually rise. All new buildings and construction should be on higher ground…problem 1 solved. (no one should be building at or below sea level as is, see Katrina and the tsunami for evidence)

  • Bliffle

    Duane supplies his own joke: “To be fair, most people of faith don’t reject science in its totality. They just reject that which appears to conflict with their beliefs,…”

    ROTFWL…will return when I catch my breath..

  • Bliffle

    Bingo! Lav hits the nail on the head:

    “The problem with our society is that we don’t really practice truth at all. ”

    And a good thing, too!

    What we do is counterpose lies of varying plausibility. With different intents and malice, too.

    Wife: “Why are you late? I’ve been waiting an hour!”

    Lie #1: she was a half hour late herself, having known husband would be an hour late so she could kill two birds with one stone: humiliate husband and dawdle at the shoe store.

    Lie #2: she doesn’t care ‘why’ he’s late, she just wants to up the guilty feeling.

    Husband: “I had a flat tire!”

    Lie: he stopped at the tavern with the secretary to get some quality time inspecting her cleavage while feigning interest in her conversation (which qualifies as another lie).

    Wife: “but my friend Alice saw your car in front of the Dew Drop Inn a half hour ago!”

    Lie: wife saw the car there herself, but the experienced player of the Lying Game knows to insert another player as a proxy, thus accomplishing two goals: invent a witness to opponents perfidy, and create a controlled stage for a future manipulation, and hide the fact that seeing the car gave her an opportunity to dawdle while maintaining the morality advantage.

    Husband: “Alice is a born liar. She once told me….”

    Lie: improvised is worst, prepared ahead of time is more effective.

    Well, you know how it works. Everyone (even a reclusive nerd) has been a child, parent, brother, employee, employer, etc., which has thrown them into the perilous position of Having To Deal With Other People and run the risk (or pleasure, for some) of playing the lying game. My 2nd wife was a master: sometimes I was struck dumb by the sheer audacity and thoroughness of her lies.

    It’s hard to survive the Lying Game, even the ‘winner’ is destroyed by the nuclear blast. To really succeed at lying you have to believe your own lies and construct imaginary worlds in advance. Believing your own lies is called ‘psychosis’, and that’s what happened to 2nd wife. Totally bonkers.

    But the player who has reflected on his Lying Game experience takes a different approach to his personal victory that doesn’t involve demolishing the opponent with a nuke.

    For example:

    Husband: “I’m terribly sorry to be late – I was held up at the office at the last minute.”

    Wife: “I just got here 2 minutes before you, and was relieved to see you were late too, because I got heldup in traffic”.

    Lies, lies, lies. But they will probably have a more salubrious evening rather than go to dinner each one seething with resentment.

    Human society would degenerate into snarling murderous perpetual animosity without euphimisms. It’s just a question of intent and the opportunity one leaves the other party to Do Good in amends without being humiliated into fake good behaviour.

  • moonraven

    Geez, Now Dave the Double Dipper (and maybe Triple and Quadruple Dipper for all his proclivity to abuse being an “editor” by making up new poster names to support his nonsense!) is taking MY name in vain on this thread where I had not even posted!

    Well, Dave, thanks for the warm welcome.

    I DO have a few comments on this topic:

    1. The Nazis perverted the original statement in their cynical version “Work Makes You Free” in their death camps.

    2. The Bush Gang, being 1984 babies, changed it to “Lies Make You Free” (well, they did make THEM free–until the US citizenry reaches into its pants and finds its balls to throw them in Gunatanamo and toss the key to their cages into the sea).

    3. Climate change or global warming, or whatever you want to call it is just ONE area where the current occupants of the White House have decided that lies are truth, ignorance is strength and all the other doublespeak national anthems.

    4. As for the Missing Links that Dave is shrieking about (this from the guy who never puts links to any facts or information!!!!!), even here in Mexico the testimony of scientists who were leaned on to omit or distort evidence of climate change and which countries were causing it has been all over the front pages for several days. Dave is just trying to shill for The Bush Gang–as usual, claiming that it’s just another conspiracy theory.

    5. I’ll give you conspiracy theory, Dave–just as soon as I finish buying that waterfront property in Nebraska….

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    taking MY name in vain on this thread where I had not even posted!

    It’s a tribute to your iconic status as the patron saint of self-deception.

    Dave

  • moonraven

    I am an icon for telling it like it is, and with an excellent nose for horseshit–which can smell you all the way here in Central Mexico.

  • D’oh

    For Dave and Doug…as well as any other apologists on the subject of climate change.

    Try Try this article about the American Enterprise Institue’s attempts to encourage spin.

    For others, a parting gift… Expose the spinners with facts!

    nuff said

  • moonraven

    Good one.

    Dave and his ilk are allergic to both facts and information.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Um, what do you want me to ‘moderate’ exactly here?

    Dave

  • Doug Hunter

    D’oh

    That’s good and well but there is good reason to at least question the science of global warming, it’s causes, and especially the proposed solutions which, in the Kyoto model, could cost the US up to $400 billion/year.

    What your side can easily see is the pressure and strings attached when a company such as Exxon hires it’s researchers to discredit global warming. Did you ever stop to consider that the same pressure is probably applied by those groups funding research in support of the ‘consensus’ view? If a global warming group funds your science and your findings don’t support the consensus how many more grants do you honestly think you’d receive? The support side openly spends billions versus a million here or there from the opposition. Several scientists, some of which are discussed in the link below, indicate that funding is dependent on showing the dangers of warming and that sceptical views are discouraged.

    Anyway, just so you get both sides of the story check out the following link to a few stories from the high profile ‘deniers‘ as they are labelled.

    The alternative theories that I found interesting were the ones related to the sun and it’s effect on cloud formation and the limited information that shows other planets such as Mars also appear to be somewhat warmer recently. These aren’t nearly as researched but even the UN reports admit they can’t really model clouds, which even this non-scientist can understand make a huge difference.

    I think we should resist the alarmists and focus those trillions of dollars on tangible and 100% documented problems that abound everywhere around us right here and now.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    And D’oh. Does the concept double standard mean nothing to you? When the AEI encourages spin it’s a bad thing, but when other groups attempt to intimidate and silence dissenting climatologists, that’s just fine.

    Don’t you dare suggest that most of the misbehavior in this area lies with the right, because we can still remember the Heidi Cullen affair.

    Dave

  • Emry

    I wouldn’t dream of asking YOU to moderate, Dave…but I sure would like to know why you aren’t disgusted with yourself for posing as Vox Populi.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Ah, now I see the problem. But as I’ve said before, I believe in free speech and don’t censor it here on BC. My role is to encourage discussion, not shut it down.

    As for my ‘posing’ as Vox Populi, it was the result of using Camino in an internet cafe while posting on another blog under that name. Camino has an annoying feature where it remembers similar fields and fills them in for you, so some posts went up here on BC under that name. Having editorial powers I was able to correct the error and put the comments under my name.

    But I do remain the voice of the people in spirit.

    Dave

  • http://www.antequeravillarental.com Christopher Rose

    Dave Nalle: “But I do remain the voice of the people in spirit.”

    Haha hahhahahhh ahahahahh hahhhahahahahahaha heheheheh aahhhaah ahhahhh haahhahh hahahhaha

    Oh I could laugh hysterically for hours at this hugely comedic contribution from our pet self-professed elitist pig. But I have a life so I’m moving on. After this: hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!

  • S.T.M

    Gee, are there any kettles here calling pots black?

  • http://www.antequeravillarental.com Christopher Rose

    Sorry, STM, what’s that about Black Pot?

  • Emry

    Sure are lots of posts being “edited” in this thread.

    Here are some of the deleted posts from last night after I asked Nalle to explain the Vox Populi hoax in #30.

    The now “edited” Driveby posted in #31. I copied it and asked for a moderator in #32.

    ———————————–

    #32 — February 3, 2007 @ 22:49PM — Emry

    “”#31 — February 3, 2007 @ 20:57PM — Driveby
    UP YOURS ASSHOLE”

    Is there a moderator around?

    #33 — February 3, 2007 @ 23:25PM — Dave Nalle [URL]
    Um, what do you want me to ‘moderate’ exactly here?

    Dave

    #34 — February 3, 2007 @ 23:25PM — Doug Hunter
    D’oh

    That’s good and well but there is good reason to at least question the science of global warming, it’s causes, and especially the proposed solutions which, in the Kyoto model, could cost the US up to $400 billion/year.

    What your side can easily see is the pressure and strings attached when a company such as Exxon hires it’s researchers to discredit global warming. Did you ever stop to consider that the same pressure is probably applied by those groups funding research in support of the ‘consensus’ view? If a global warming group funds your science and your findings don’t support the consensus how many more grants do you honestly think you’d receive? The support side openly spends billions versus a million here or there from the opposition. Several scientists, some of which are discussed in the link below, indicate that funding is dependent on showing the dangers of warming and that sceptical views are discouraged.

    Anyway, just so you get both sides of the story check out the following link to a few stories from the high profile ‘deniers’ as they are labelled.

    The alternative theories that I found interesting were the ones related to the sun and it’s effect on cloud formation and the limited information that shows other planets such as Mars also appear to be somewhat warmer recently. These aren’t nearly as researched but even the UN reports admit they can’t really model clouds, which even this non-scientist can understand make a huge difference.

    I think we should resist the alarmists and focus those trillions of dollars on tangible and 100% documented problems that abound everywhere around us right here and now.

    #35 — February 3, 2007 @ 23:31PM — Dave Nalle [URL]
    And D’oh. Does the concept double standard mean nothing to you? When the AEI encourages spin it’s a bad thing, but when other groups attempt to intimidate and silence dissenting climatologists, that’s just fine.

    Don’t you dare suggest that most of the misbehavior in this area lies with the right, because we can still remember the Heidi Cullen affair.

    Dave

    #36 — February 3, 2007 @ 23:35PM — Driveby
    MODERATE THIS ASSHOLE.UP YOURS

    #37 — February 3, 2007 @ 23:37PM — Emry
    I wouldn’t dream of asking YOU to moderate, Dave…but I sure would like to know why you aren’t disgusted with yourself for posing as Vox Populi.

    —————————————

    I strongly suspect that our deleted friend ‘Driveby’ is none other than Vox Populi…DUI.

  • Clavos

    Emry,

    You’re doing a zealous job of outing commenters posting under more than one name.

    Don’t you think it’s now time for you to admit that You are not posting under your original handle?

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Clavos, at some point Emry realized that posting under his real name was a bad idea since his comments here are so embarassing. Can’t fault him for changing.

    Dave

  • MCH

    “Clavos, at some point Emry realized that posting under his real name was a bad idea since his comments here are so embarassing. Can’t fault him for changing.”
    – Dave Nalle

    Is he worse than Vox Populi?

  • Emry

    Clavos. I have no problem with people posting under more than one “handle”.

    What I don’t care for is when they pull a Dave(Vox Populi)Nalle SCAM and use BOTH NAMES IN THE SAME THREAD.

    And when, like Nalle, they have “…editorial powers…” and use them to MANIPULATE the contents of the threads and COVER THEIR TRACKS, they should be ditched.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Emry, the key thing here is that I did not act like a different person or discuss with myself while I had the VP ‘handle’, I just posted my regular comments, signed my own name to them, but they happened to be mislabeled. I then fixed it so there was no ambiguity.

    Until you start posting under your own name again – assuming that was your real name a few months ago – you have no grounds for bitching.

    Dave

  • Emry

    Who are you kidding, Nalle?

    Read Shark’s comments from ‘The Folly of the Iraq War’ thread.

    “#102 — February 4, 2007 @ 08:33AM — SHARK
    Wow. The “editor” of BC Politics — Dave Nalle — is a lying *****, isn’t he? Just a flat out liar.

    Nalle had two names; Vox Pop. played rabid, angry, insulting attack dog and cheerleader to Nalle’s ‘calm’, rational Professor over the last week or two. The only few comments from “Vox” that registered with me were those specifically mentioning me, SHARK.

    “Vox” attacked me in some pretty nasty, irrational, heavy-handed ways. It was in the same vein as the Nalle attacks at the time, (ie. you are a pessimist whose attitude harms the troops and all of America, etc etc. — heh) — but it was much nastier/explicit than Nalle’s normal “implicit” insulting style. As I recall — a few times — “Vox” followed “Dave” pretty quickly in the comments, attacking me with a ferocity that was thematically similar to Nalle, but much more pissed off, crazy kinda sounding.

    And now Mr. game designer, digital font designer, etc. comes up with some cock-a-mamey sleight-of-hand story about an internet cafe form?

    What BULLSHIT.”

    Totally!

  • http://www.antequeravillarental.com Christopher Rose

    Emry you’re being as daft as Dave was when he allegedly forgot how browsers work. He did use the VP name but the other poster is nothing other than a sad old lurker who, despite their advanced age, still finds potty humour sophisticated.

  • http://www.antequeravillarental.com Christopher Rose

    Oh, for the sake of clarity, Emry has every right to use whatever online id they like and it’s nobody else’s business so they do in fact have a right to ask questions. Even stupid or paranoid ones!

  • Clavos

    So all of us can post under any names we want, comments editor?

  • moonraven

    In that case, I suggest that clavos post under a more truthful nombre de guerra: gusano.

  • Nancy

    Dave, I expect better, more ‘professional’ behavior from someone who’s both an editor here AND claims to be a professional writer. You know as well as the rest of us that what you did, while not technically illegal, is unethical & unprofessional, a conflict of interest, considering your capabilities to edit. On behalf of ALL of us, I demand an apology. And I will no longer debate or comment with you until you do.

    Chris – I think perhaps a Single ID Only policy would be wise and called for at this point.

  • http://www.antequeravillarental.com Christopher Rose

    Don’t fake stupidity Clavos, it confuses people ;-)

  • Clavos

    Confusing people is my life’s work, Christopher; I’m a salesman.

  • Lumpy

    Where are all these supposed Vox Populi posts? I can’t find a single one.

  • Nancy

    Chris – did Dave remove all the Vox posts, or did one of the other editors? If HE did, he should be drummed off BC first for deception & conflict of interest, and doubly for trying to cover it up by deleting the posts.

  • http://www.antequeravillarental.com Christopher Rose

    As far as I’m aware, Dave has already explained how, in his opinion, he came to make posts as Vox Populi. And, as he also explained here on the site, he went into the comments tool to change the poster name back to his own.

    He has certainly made a mistake or two but everybody does that. For what it’s worth, I think you Americans need to chill out a bit and stop being so eager to punish people. Taking steps to reduce your excessive prison population and repealing the death penalty would be a good start…

  • Nancy

    Ah – I didn’t see the explanations, so I wasn’t aware. And were the other editors of BC aware of what he was doing? & you all were OK with that?

    IMO no one should be double-posting under more than one name; it’s dishonest, it’s misleading, and in the case of an editor, it’s conflict of interest. If anyone needs to change their posting name, they should apply to Eric & ‘register’ the new name with him. But not multiple names at the same time. It’s not honest.

  • http://www.antequeravillarental.com Christopher Rose

    I wasn’t aware of it until Dave outed himself here on the site after certain people noticed the stylistic similarities. Using more than one identity at the same time is certainly not a good idea.

    As I understand it, there are plans to introduce some kind of registration but I don’t have any details yet. I’m assuming regulars and writers will have more capabilities than the passing trade when that is introduced.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    I wasn’t aware of it until Dave outed himself here on the site after certain people noticed the stylistic similarities. Using more than one identity at the same time is certainly not a good idea.

    Just for the record, this is incorrect. I was not ‘outed’. I spotted the problem myself before anyone else did, and was ‘outed’ because the most recent posts with the erroneous name on them suddenly appeared with my name on them as I went in and corrected them, and someone noticed that.

    Had I not tried to be honest about it and correct the problem, chances are no one would have noticed. Clearly no good deed goes unpunished.

    And those ‘stylistic’ similarities included signing the comments with my own name at the bottom and linking to my home page, so the contention that I was trying to deceive anyone is completely ridiculous.

    Dave

  • http://www.antequeravillarental.com Christopher Rose

    Dave, I wrote you outed yourself, so what I wrote is entirely correct. There’s no way to prove this but my recollection is that some folk were asking who the Vox Populi character was before you corrected your mistake.

    If you weren’t trying to deceive anyone, and I tend to believe that you weren’t, you were certainly a little careless and/or naive.

  • Nancy

    I do remember several comments with “Dave” posted at the bottom. It was confusing but since they were posted under another name, I thought the poster was either imitating Nalle or it was some kind of anomaly. I certainly didn’t connect them with Dave Nalle. If this was a technical screwup caused by some sort of computer code, I can accept all this as an unintentional error, & I must say it does accord more with what I associate with Dave as his “normal” behavior. As I said, it came as a shock & deep disappointment as well as a huge surprise because it wasn’t like him. I’m glad to know it wasn’t so.

    But I still think we need to register, & there should be a one-name-only policy.

  • Nancy

    I’m sorry I thought the worst, Dave; I should have trusted you more. Apology accepted?

  • troll

    re #58 and all of Dave’s claimed explanations – as I conversed with Vox and read Dave’s comment about how he had ‘seen reports that supported Vox’s position’ and was first to notice Dave’s signature under a Vox entry – I say bunk

    I also say…who cares – ?

  • troll

    (besides…I thank Dave as Populi will be a major character in my next spy thriller)

  • moonraven

    I can see why Nancy feels guilty about voting for Bush–she obviously trusts Texan fanatics WAY more than they deserve.

    Dave WAS trying to be decptive. One of his standard tics is to claim that everybody else posting on a thread agrees with him. He is a bully, and part of his MO is to attempt to shout down other posters by doubling, tripling and quadrupling his posts under phoney names.

    Another of his bullying tactics is threatening to censor posts he doesn’t agree with.

    Chris, I don’t care if he is punished, but I do not believe you blogcritics staffpeople are acting ethically by putting Dave in any sort of capacity where he has oversight or can pull the kinds of shenanigans he has been pulling.

    I am also against the death penalty. But I might make an exception in the case of the Destructive Duo of Bush and Cheney.

  • D’oh

    This distraction and the congruent distortions all fall under the “fiddling while Rome burns” category.

    Or had we all forgotten the topic at hand just as those who would deny that warming IS happening, for whatever reasons, want us to…so they can continue with record breaking profits?

    For all some try and say the scientists have some kind of financial interest, most involved are academics with tenure as opposed to those making record profits.

    As for name policy, the comments policy has always been, to my knowledge, that only ONE name per thread was allowed..I violated it once by accident as I was leaving one persona behind and trying to find another that suited…the difference is that I was not trying to support my own positions with the new name, or even referenced myself….mistakes happen…so normally I’m wont to give a bit of slack.

    But it just doesn’t matter, in the end.

  • moonraven

    I disagree, D’oh. In any debate, unethical behavior employed by one side to try to “load the dice” for their point of view certainly does matter.

    And it wastes everybody’s time because then they are trying to bail out the boat while folks live Dave keep drilling holes in it–instead of focusing on the topic.

  • Nancy

    Moonie, your credibility with ME at least is blown by THAT comment, since I never voted for Bush, & never said I did, either. In fact, everybody who has ever read my rants on BushCo on this site is probably choking (with incredulous laughter) on that humongous attempt at a smear. Good try, though. Divide & conquer, so to speak.

    I apologized to Dave because I’m honest enough – & adult enough – to admit when I’m wrong, unlike you, who can’t or won’t admit to anything less than perfection. I surmised once before you sounded like that deluded nutcase on the Fatima thread who had herself confused with Mary/God/Christ & various other deities; I still think you’re her, but since I don’t know, I won’t follow your lead by making lying statements claiming you are.

    You’re a pretty sorry specimen, Moonie: you’re an embittered, arrogant, lonely old bag who spews venom the way trucks spew exhaust. You can’t be civil to anyone, you can’t engage in reasonable conversation online, you regard everyone as your enemy and – self-fulfilling prophecy – by the time you get done, they are. Or at least they really can’t be bothered with responding to your poisons any more.

    It finally occurred to me to speculate that the reason you’re stuck in Mexico & are so contemptuous of the US & everyone in it is because you just might, possibly, be on the lam from the FBI or other law-enforcement agency, perhaps something to do with the Mohawk protests, perhaps not. Perhaps something else, it doesn’t matter.

    Whatever keeps you there, doubtless it ain’t friendliness; if you treat the locals the same way you deal with everyone here, no doubt you don’t have any friends where you live, either, given the way you’ve referred to your neighbors once or twice. That’s pretty sad. Like being a skunk who can’t figure out why everybody runs from them. Ohh…John Lennon had a good quote that applies to you from “Revolution”: ‘…but if you carry a picture of Chairman Mao, y’ain’t gonna make with anyone anyhow….’ Yeah, that fits you perfectly.

    You’re a very unhappy woman, Moonie R, deep in denial, dealing with the world through bluster, threats, manipulation, & rather nasty guile. Myabe that’s the only way you were able to find to survive or cope. I’m truly sorry if so. I hope you can find someone to help you work your way out of it.

    Ciao bella, ancient lady; I’d rather joust with Dave; at least he knows how to be civil, even if he can be a weasel from time to time.

  • zingzing

    nancy–did you vote for bush?

  • zingzing

    nevermind

  • Nancy

    Nope. Never even considered it. I knew what he was before 2000, I just never knew that he was what he was on such a scale, or to such a nadir of character & capability.

    After reading all my rants about Bush, how can you even ask with a straight face?

  • Clavos

    Well said, Nancy.

  • Nancy

    Thanks. If you notice, most of her accusations & innuendo involves projection – of what SHE would do – on everybody else. She thinks You/Dave/I say or do something because that’s how SHE thinks/acts. Like I said, pretty pitiful, really when you consider it dispassionately. It’s possible it’s also the onset of Alzheimer’s or perhaps small, unnoticed strokes. My dad, most of his life a fairly mild guy, became very argumentative, negative, & aggressive after a series of tiny strokes nobody knew about until he had the Big One & got a CAT-scan. He couldn’t help himself; perhaps Moonie can’t either.

    In any event, she can rant to the desert air for all I care. As far as I’m concerned she’s not there. I believe the Amish call it shunning. I do expect the reaction will be rather like throwing a rock at a large hornets’ nest, however.

    BTW – you weren’t anywhere in the vicinity of those tornadoes the other day, were you? I thought of you when I heard it on the radio & spent a few seconds worrying about you.

  • moonraven

    Don’t worry about ME, Nancy.

    It’s really sad that, when I have TRIED to be decent to you–expanding on questions about other countries, even allowing your prying little eyes into my ethnic ancestry–your response has been: first, to accuse me of being the bipolar psychotic on the Fatima thread, and then to accuse me of being a criminal, having Alzheimers and finally LYING by saying that I have said negative things on this board about ANY of my neighbors in Mexico.

    Not to mention your consistently AGEIST attacks (old bag, etc.).

    Just which truths, precisely, have I said that you are so needing to shout down? That you voted for Bush? (That was just a lucky guess based on your over-the-top protesting–very much like a woman who’s been “done wrong” by a man she gave everything to–as well as your insistence in denying me my rights as a US citizen because I DON’T VOTE.)

    No need to answer any of these questions. In fact, I would prefer that you make no further ploys in my direction to get attention that “daddy” didn’t give you.

  • Nancy

    Getting back to Fred’s original subject, sort of, I’m just surprised BushCo feels pressured to admit to the existance of global warming. At first I thought it might be because they had gotten to the point that there were just too many scientists of top credibility ranged against them; but there are too many experts ranged against them regarding their proposed Iraq War strategems, too, and they haven’t had any trouble whatsoever ignoring THEM. I wonder why the difference. Perhaps Bush has gotten an earful on the Q.T. from other world leaders who are more realistic & more concerned?

  • Clavos

    Nancy #72,

    Thanks, I’m fine.

    The storms were up in the middle of the state, in Lake County; at least 200 miles from here.

    They really were bad.

    One of the good things about Florida; we get hit by natural disasters so often, our disaster response agencies react quickly and well, unlike what happened in N’Awlins.

  • D’oh

    Good to hear you were spared the storms, Clavos.

    Funny one, while watching the coverage of the storms, right afterwards…i was reminded that one of my uncles (married to my mother’s sister) is the congressman from those parts because he was phoning in a report to MSNBC while driving into the heart of the damage…then thought of Clavos and just the possibility of Cliff being his congressman made me chuckle in a “six degrees” kind of way.

  • MCH

    “Just for the record, this is incorrect. I was not ‘outed’. I spotted the problem myself before anyone else did, and was ‘outed’ because the most recent posts with the erroneous name on them suddenly appeared with my name on them as I went in and corrected them, and someone noticed that.”
    – Dave (Vox Populi) Nalle

    Just for the record, that is a lie, folks. Here’s the truth, in chronological order from “The Folly of the Iraq War Thread”:

    #5 — February 2, 2007 @ 10:31AM — Vox Populi (later changed to Dave Nalle)
    “Except for that interesting opening anecdote this is just a rehash of stuff we’ve all seen and said before. Let’s bring on some new thoughts on this subject.”

    #6 — February 2, 2007 @ 11:04AM — MCH
    ^ Are Vox Populi and Dave Nalle one-in-the-same?

    #35 — February 2, 2007 @ 18:59PM — MCH
    Re #5;

    To whomever it may concern:

    This comment was originally forged as coming from “Vox Populi” and signed “Dave”; after I questioned (in #6) whether Vox Populi and Nalle were the same person, Nalle went back, deleted the “Vox Populi” and inserted his own name.

    Isn’t this the same kind of shit he’s passed judgment on others for in the past? What a hypocrite!! (But I already knew that)

    Dave

  • Clavos

    Thanks, D’oh.

    I LOVE that six degrees kind of stuff! It’s amazing, when you start to compare notes with someone, what you can come up with. Fun stuff.

    I’m in the 20th District; my Congress”man” is a woman, Debbie Wasserman-Schultz, a Democrat and excellent representative.

    I googled the hint you had in your comment. Thank your uncle for me for his work on Veterans Affairs.

  • D’oh

    Ain’t talked to him since i was inserv , Clavos…he and my aunt came to my bootcamp graduation in Orlando in ’79…long before he got into politics.

    Glad it gave ya a smile, all too rare these days.

    Something for you to think about, it says quite a bit about where i come from (especially during my outlaw days)

    the Tao of D’oh.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Getting back to Fred’s original subject, sort of, I’m just surprised BushCo feels pressured to admit to the existance of global warming.

    What’s surprising about it? They’re not actively evil, even if they are a bit subverted by greed.

    The truth is that in a global warming world, there are great fortunes to be made in the industries associated with dealing with the problems climate change presents.

    Hell, there’s really MORE money and NEW fortunes to be made in the establishment of alternative energy as big business, and there’s still money to be made by most of the players in the petroleum industry. The need for plastics isn’t going to go away, and the distribution networks they have established can work just as well with biodiesel and ethanol as they do with gasoline.

    Maybe Bush and his people actually see the huge potential which exists in embracing change and adaptation.

    It’s not impossible, especially for a lame duck looking for a legacy.

    Dave

  • Emry

    [Entire comment deleted. Emry, apparently you missed the memo where it said we are reaching for the new “spirit of brotherly love we wish to foster”, as a better writer than me once wrote. Please go for all the dialectic combat and debate you care to and knock it off with the insults. Thanks! Your Comments Editor]

  • Emry

    ENTIRE COMMENT DELETED AGAIN:

    Emry – READ #81. Then read it again. If you persist with this line of commenting I shall pursue sterner sanction. Comments Editor

  • Bliffle

    Dave sez: “The truth is that in a global warming world, there are great fortunes to be made in the industries associated with dealing with the problems climate change presents.”

    Listen for the Jackbooted footsteps of the Cheney Orthodoxy Police (COPs), Dave, for you have violated the most important of State Secrets in the Brave New Improved Alternative Energy America ordained by Dick Cheney in secret meetings with the proper guardians of the worlds energy resources, namely, oil companies and arabian sheiks, in the very first days of the neocons ascendancy to the American Presidential Throne.

    Our Beloved Vice President has caused his GWB dummy to utter words against Kyoto, etc., as “detrimental to the US economy” on occasions of state, to justifiably deter the reckless onslaught of improperly licensed alternative energy providers who want to use their warped concept of “free markets” that do not pay tribute to properly authorized campaign contributors in the Friends Of America, who have solely been authorized, licensed and privatized to provide New Alternative Energy to supplicants who provide sufficient Campaign Contribution New Dollars (the Bad Old Dollars having been devalued to zero to thwart americas enemies abroad who would unjustly demand repayment of so-called ‘loans’ which were just bad investments on their part, as well as the fifth column of ‘americans’ who foolishly invested in US equities, perhaps with a subversive intent to vote their stocks to thwart the rightful salaries of executives).

    You are out of line, and I’m sure that unaccustomed condition makes you uneasy. Or, it soon will. Listen for the footsteps.

    Didn’t you get the memo? Propaganda tool quibblers (hoping to be thrown some table scraps from the largesse of Their Betters) of the uberclass are supposed to support the anti-alternative energy stand until alerted by Central Authority that the ubers have gained Full Spectrum Control of alternative energy, through the holy alliance of business and government, so that consumers have only the ubers to buy (and ‘buy ‘is the important word, here) the Wonderful New Alternative Energy from.

    Until that Glorious Day, Dave, get back in line! The COPs will tell you when to unleash the tirades against Old Energy and when to whip up the lust for the Sparkling New Alternative Energy (available only through participating ubers).

    Then you can publish that scintillating article you have readied that clearly shows that any American is a criminal who dares to power his sundial with ‘free’ light from the sun instead of buying the New Improved Alternative Sunlight from the properly licensed, government subsidized, unified, Full Spectrum Light Co., (named in honor of GWBs vastly successful pioneering Spectrum Oil Co.) owned and operated by Mary Cheney and her descendants (all of whom are the result of virgin birth, thus besting the Old Jesus record of just one virgin birth and establishing the New Improved Alternative Godly Sex as normal and Licensed, Paid For, Privatized and Legally Enforced).

    Perhaps you should write one of your penetrating articles, proving that any american who opens his window and reads a book by sunlight is depriving the Cheney Full Spectrum Alternative Energy Co., of revenue by not buying one of their lovely candles, as any right-thinking citizen would do. I’m sure you can rummage around in the writings of ancient economists from 200 years ago whose words should guide us all.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Did you get into the shrooms again, bliffle?

    Dave

  • D’oh

    If so, he should share…it made me laugh.

    Kinda the way this does…

    the Tao of D’oh.

  • Martin Lav

    #56 — January 31, 2007 @ 12:44PM — Vox Populi [URL]
    Of the characters in The Magnificent Seven the picture unquestionably looks most like the Robert Vaughn character.

    For the record on Dave’s double identity.
    I don’t see the so-called Dave signature on this, so is their another Vox Populi lurking.

    Explain this one Dave.

  • Emry

    Dave Vox Populi Nalle can’t explain his sleazy subterfuge without adding more BS. You’d think though, that since BS is his forte he’d be burning up the keypad.