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The Terrorists Have a Web site!

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And here you thought all the terrorists were dead or being hunted down. Apparently some of the few remaining terrorists in Iraq and their international socialist pals are keeping hope alive at a www.uruknet.info. It’s got all the latest on their stirring victories – blowing up civilians, kidnapping diplomats, assassinating civil servants and burning children alive in refugee camps.

Most interestingly it chronicles the deaths of literally scores of US and Coalition soldiers virtually every day – yet if you check other news sources none of those deaths are recorded anywhere. They’re not in any of the major news outlets, not in the papers, not on the TV, not on the newswire, not in the offical body count from the Coalition, not in the independent body count from GlobalSecurity.org – they’re not anywhere.

So, what does making up imaginary casualties and fantasy victories over the Great Satan signify? Is it just wishful thinking, or perhaps a form of magic where talking about casualties will make them happen in real life? Or maybe it’s a last, desperate effort to be taken seriously as history passes the remaining terrorists and their western socialist allies by.

There’s a real echo here of former Saddam’s Information Minister – Baghdad Bob – who kept saying the Republican Guard army was winning as US tanks drove by one block away. Totalitarian regimes and terrorist movements can’t afford to look like they are failing and these human vipers sure can’t acknowledge the substantial and increasing success of Iraq’s new government and the US Middle East policy. An admission of failure would never serve the ends of their international socialist allies who fund their website and give them moral support.

Interestingly, the stories from Uruknet do get picked up – they seem to show up in the more radical islamic press and on socialist websites all over the world, but nowhere else. It’s almost like there are two different realities operating here. There’s one reality which most of the world’s media and NGO observers agree on and there’s an entirely different fantasy world that the terrorists and international radicals are desperately clinging to.

It’s no wonder that it’s so difficult to have sensible conversations with leftists here in the US who’ve become infected by the delusional mindset of their international brothers. They’re so completely drunk on the wine of ideological programming and so out of touch with the real world that when we try to talk to them they must think we’re insane, since none of the real information we try to share with them matches the ‘news’ and ‘facts’ they’re being spoon fed by their masters. They’re true believers and they’ll keep believing until the very end and beyond no matter what, just like the die hard terrorists in Iraq who’ll still be winning when they’re living in a spider hole eating gruel frustrated relatives pour down a tube to them.

Dave

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About Dave Nalle

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    The reality is slowly hitting them.

    I was not long ago that these wonderful folks claimed that the January elections simply could not take place. When it did, they claimed a lunatic theocracy would take over. When it didn’t, they claimed that one election doesn’t mean anything, and that the Islamic fundies would soon take over.

    And when THAT doesn’t happen, they’ll complain about something else.

    And, ten years from now, when the Middle East is largely ruled by secular, democratic governments, they will claim it was going to happen anyway, and that Bush merely delayed it, or some such nonsense…

  • SFC SKI

    Do they have a PayPAl donation button, or do their articles have to have an Amazon link?

  • http://cranialcavity.net/wordpress/index.php Marc

    Ah… Baghdad Bob. Who could forget these gems:

    “Those Iraqi fighters are slapping those gangsters on the face, and then when they flee, they will kick their backsides.”

    “God will roast their stomachs in hell at the hands of Iraqis.”

    “The Cruise missiles do not frighten anyone. We are catching them like fish in a river. I mean here that over the past two days, we managed to shoot down 196 missiles before they hit their target.”

    And my personel favorite:

    “I can say, and I am responsible for what I am saying, that they have started to commit suicide under the walls of Baghdad. We will encourage them to commit more suicides quickly.”

    It don’t get better than that. He needs to replace that red-headed step child Conan O’Brien

    “The Late, Late Show staring Comical Ali!”

  • http://www.taospost.com MDE

    The site is an Italian based news gatherer with a definate ‘anti American’ point of view. The articles that I read were reposts from sources like yahoo/news, commondreams.org, the Standard…very little origional stuff. I couldn’t find much of the truly fantastical writing that is out on other anarchist sites.

    There is a paypal button.

    As for the Nalle’s tone – well, just another example of this brainwashed brainwasher brainwashing other brainwashed brainwashers.

    BC is famous for it.

    True beleivers of all varieties are awesome.

    Mark

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>Do they have a PayPAl donation button, or do their articles have to have an Amazon link?< <

    They're apparently getitng money through PayPal. PayPal has stopped money to terrorists in some other cases, but it appears to be working here.

    >>The site is an Italian based news gatherer with a definate ‘anti American’ point of view. The articles that I read were reposts from sources like yahoo/news, commondreams.org, the Standard…very little origional stuff. I couldn’t find much of the truly fantastical writing that is out on other anarchist sites.< <

    Then you were VERY selective in your reading. I read direct reports from the Uruk area - which seems to be their focus - as well as numerous reports fromt he more radical Arab newspapers. All you seem to have seen was selected editorial material, much of which is original or from obvious socialist sources.

    If you look at their day by day reports of events which seem not to have been reported anywhere else, the source for every single one of them appears to be http://www.islammemo.cc, which is in Arabic, but at least from the pictures seems to be a pro-terrorist arab language website.

    >>As for the Nalle’s tone – well, just another example of this brainwashed brainwasher brainwashing other brainwashed brainwashers.<<

    Yep, I’ve been brainwashed into not liking people who murder women and children, kidnap people and hold them for ransom, behead people, torture them, and lie about my country as well. Guess what, not liking terrorists doesn’t take brainwashing, it just takes being a reasonable human being. Beleiving this tripe and supporting their outrages even by innaction or by supporting the international socialists who back them requires an inhumanity which is much more characteristic of brainwashing than the common human reaction of repugnance.

    Dave

  • http://www.taospost.com MDE

    re:”Then you were VERY selective in your reading”

    I just followed the first several links on the homepage that were in English. I’ll have to go back and root around for the ‘local news’. Looks like a google news searcher to me. The site’s connection to babblefish helps. If I am wrong and the site is more complete than I indicated, I stand corrected…I keep looking, but I still find no origional work there. There are links to arabmonitor, contropiano, agi.it/news –

    Of interest is that there is no forum connected to the site – no place for open public feedback – just e-mail. (At least, I couldn’t find one.) Even the NYT has a forum.

    There was no good point in my addressing the tone of the posting. Absolutism is what made America great, after all.

    Mark

  • http://georgepope28@hotmail.com Georgio

    It’s no wonder that it’s so difficult to have sensible conversations with leftists here in the US who’ve become infected by the delusional mindset of their international brothers…

    Dave your love for calling us lefties only reinforces why we Liberals hate the religious right..oh yes the religious fanatics who have taken over the republican party…oh how do you like being called a religious fanatic becaause that is how we view your party..you will say they are only a miority in your party but the truth is they control your party..you cannot be nominated to run for president unless you go thru them period..so change your name Dave to the RIGHT WING RELIGIOUS FANATIC PARTY ..or for short just the GODS CHOSEN PARTY..but conservative you ain”t…and by the way I have read the El Jazeera site for a year and never read anything in there that was not true..I stay away from Dem slanted sites just as I stay away from Drudge Rush and Fox..they are all full of BULLSHIT just like you…

  • JR

    And here you thought all the terrorists were dead or being hunted down.

    Only the most brainless Bush supporters would think that. The rest of us remember seeing Osama bin Laden on TV not six months ago.

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Georgio, I call you leftists (not ‘lefties’ usually), because it’s a more accurate term than calling most of the American left ‘liberals’. Most American leftists are not liberals and have merely taken on that name to borrow a bit of legitimacy.

    Just as you’re worried that the Republican party has been taken over by religious fanatics, I worry that the Democratic party has been taken over by international socialist fanatics, who have diverted it from its traditions, corrupted its leadership and deceived its members. Just like the Neocons in the Republican party, the moveon.org international socialists are a minority, but they have a disproportionately loud voice and are setting the agenda for the Democrats and dragging the rest of you along with them.

    Before you start berating Republicans for being saddled with religious fanatics, perhaps you should clean house in the Democratic party and see if you can purge the socialist fanatis who are dragging you down to hell and oblivion.

    Dave

  • http://www.markiscranky.org Mark Saleski

    please name the “socialist fanatics”, since you’re so enamoured with dealing in ‘facts’.

  • http://www.taospost.com MDE

    …getting a bit side tracked. The question is, is the vilified site really some kind of front for the terrorists as is claimed. Or is it being used by a blogger to cast a conspiratorial net?

    I’m not seeing it.

    Mark

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    You want their individual names? Ok, here we go:

    George Soros (eastern european robber baron who uses quasi-socialism to enable emerging governments to sell him economic assets in their countries which he uses as the source of the vast fortune which he has dedicated to buying control of the US government)

    Joan Blades (co-founder of moveon.org, formerly involved in socialist activism through the web)

    Wes Boyd (co-founder of moveon.org, formerly involved in socialist activism through the web)

    Jehmu Greene (founder of rock the vote, former socialist activist here in Austin)

    Medea Benjamin (Head of the Progressive Democratic Alliance, a socialist group closely tied to moveon.org)

    These folks are all disciples of the late Michael Harrington who initiated a movement to try to mainstream socialism and infiltrate it into the Democratic party. Moveon.org became one of the main vehicles for accomplishing this.

    There are lots more who could be named, but these are some of the most obvious.

    Dave

  • http://www.taospost.com MDE

    re:”You want their individual names? Ok, here we go:”

    Methinks that this is where Nalle wanted to go with his posting in the first place. So why didn’t he?

    Mark

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Actually, it wasn’t my intention at all, MDE. I never expected it to go this direction. If I wanted to talk about the various socialists involved in infiltrating the Democratic party I’d write an actual article on it. And maybe I will. Unfortunately I can’t find the archival copy I made about 5 years ago of the moveon.org web page before they really hit it big. It had explicit information which showed the connections between moveon.org and various socialist organizations and listing the socialist bonafides of variious moveon.org personnel. When it first started out moveon.org was a project of several socialist groups, whcih it quickly separated from in a move towards political legitimacy in the aftermath of the election of 2000.

    What I really wanted to get at with this article was the disinformation being spread by pro-terrorist websites and by eurosocialists who are funding and supporting them. That’s an entirely different issue, really.

    Dave

  • http://www.taospost.com MDE

    Dave – Postings concerning moveon.org’s history would be interesting reading.

    I don’t think that Uruknet was the best choice of sites to make your primary point. The site clearly is biased, but it’s not so clear that it is functioning as a ‘disinformation’ site as part of an ‘international socialist’ conspiracy to support the terrorists… (At least not to me.)

    Mark

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Uruknet is the one that caught my eye, so it was my launching off point. I’ve since run into several others which might be even better examples since they’re coming straight from Europeans and have a very clear propaganda objective and even clearer socialist political agendas. I have written extensively on my blog in the past about one called breakfornews.com which is particularly bad.

    Dave

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Not having visited BreakforNews.com in quite a while I dropped by after writing the last response and immediately got a little more grist for my mill.

    According to them the recent demonstration in Furdos square in Baghdad was entirely anti-US and had 300,000 people at it. Pretty interesting when reliable sources say that the demonstration was largely anti-terrorist and pro-sadrist with the anti-US elements pretty peaceful, and a reliable count shows only about 12,000 in attendance. What they also fail to point out is that it was a peaceful demonstration with security provided by Iraqi government troops and no head bashing. That kind of demonstration is a hallmark of a democratic society stable enough to allow dissent.

    Dave

  • http://www.taospost.com MDE

    re: BreakforNews.com

    Quite a site. Pure propaganda. Now your getting to the fantastical stuff I referred to earlier. But is this coming from some kind of coordinated socialist effort or just nuts and fruits?

    Mark

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Most of these sites – and there’s an Italian socialist site quite a bit like Break for News – seem to be based around one outspoken individual, but they have genuine followings and a sort of network of other sites which all share the same information. The BreakforNews.org guy has a podcast and does live interviews and seems to have established a sort of journalistic legitimacy for himself at least with the left in Britain.

    Dave

  • http://www.taospost.com MDE

    re:”What I really wanted to get at with this article was the disinformation being spread by pro-terrorist websites and by eurosocialists”

    Have you spent any time looking at the structure and funding of the indymedia organization? Might be a story there.

    Mark

  • http://georgepope28@hotmail.com Georgio

    I will at least give you credit Dave for admitting that you have religious fanatics in your party…What is so bad about Moveon.org..I get emails from them all the time asking for help to stop the rotten crap the Rs keep coming up with like private accounts and radical judge appointments and the swift boat liars who are getting ready to attack Hillary..at least they are not trying to control my life like the religious right fanatics who control congress and the President.and I welcome George Soros money ..I have never heard him ask for any conditions like the R R does..

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Georgio. The people who get emails from Neocon groups think that they are perfectly reasonable too. They think they’re helping to take their money away from government bureaucrats, fight obstructionist democrats who have blocked some judicial appointment for as long as 5 years, and bring out the truth about Kerry’s military record, and expose Hillary’s plans for the socialization of America. They think that left wing, pro-government fanatics are trying to control their lives, overthrow the first president in years who’s at least tried to restore personal integrity in the white house and bring down the congress that wants to put them back in control of their own lives.

    Does any of that sound a bit familiar?

    As for George Soros’ conditions. Wait until the Democrats get into power. Not much point in asking for his payback now.

    Dave

  • SFC SKI

    First Dave, thanks for the link to IslamicMemo, I started reading a bit of it, too little to offer an opinion on its bias. I bookmarked it and will let you all know what I think.

    Several other arab news sites or sites with arab news have forums, the BBC has opinion pols and posts responses.

    NowDave, before you start jacking threads with your OT “all these guys are leftie propogandists” why not just start a post of your own avour George Soros so we can keep this one on track, OK?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    You read arabic, Ski? Or is there a translated version I didn’t spot.

    And I’ll try not to hijack my own threads. The sanity has to stop somewhere.

    As for an article on Soros and his empire of surrogates, that will have to wait until I finish up a couple of other writing projects.

    Dave

  • http://georgepope28@hotmail.com Georgio

    awww Dave everytime I think you have some rational thoughts you come up with more stupid stuff..if you believe the swift boat liars and that Hillary is a Socialist then I give up trying to talk sense to you..Kerry was a war hero and I read everything the swift boat liars put out and it was clear who the liars where..

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Anyone doubting the prior thread suggesting that liberals are just a bit dim, meet Georgio.

    Dave

  • http://www.markiscranky.org Mark Saleski

    we’re all still waiting for the day when dave can manage to disagree with somebody without resorting to calling them stupid.

    (oh, exuse me…let’s be exact: dim)

    still waiting.

  • SFC SKI

    Yes, I do read Arabic, a direct result of your tax dollars at work and Saddam Hussein’s actions in 1991.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Mark. Read #21 then read #22 then read #25 which is in direct response to it. Did you understand my response? Do you see how Georgio did not understand it? Wouldn’t anyone of normal intelligence understand what I was doing?

    Dave

  • http://www.markiscranky.org Mark Saleski

    you two are speaking around and over each other. you both disagree about the ‘truth’ of a matter.

    but sorry, i’m just a dim liberal.

  • http://cranialcavity.net/wordpress/index.php Marc

    Georgio: You have been reading too much of the NYT and WaPo. It would explain this bit of nonsense.

    “if you believe the swift boat liars and that Hillary is a Socialist then I give up trying to talk sense to you..Kerry was a war hero and I read everything the swift boat liars put out and it was clear who the liars where..

    Here is the challenge and I quote:

    “Can you identify even one specific and material SwiftVets allegation that you believe to have been fully “debunked” or fully proven to be “unsubstantiated”?

    Some ground rules for this challenge that I think are not unreasonable:

    By “specific,” I mean to exclude sweeping conclusions like “John Kerry wasn’t as big a hero as he’s made out.” By material, I mean to exclude trivia like “the VC soldier John Kerry shot was in a uniform instead of in a loincloth.” And I ask that if you’re to make an honest effort to meet my challenge, you provide quotes and links, both to the SwiftVets’ allegations and to the evidence that you offer to show debunking or lack of substantiation.”

    If you pass the test I promise to quit asking Kerry to sign a SF-180 form. You know the one he said was signed long, long ago but then promised 71 days ago to sign.

    It remains unsigned…wonder why?

  • Marc

    Sorry for hijacking the thread Dave.

    I just couldn’t let that SBV liar turd sit there without a response.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    I sympathize, Marc. It’s hard to believe they’re still harping on issues which are so old and so dead, but the bitterness drives them on and on.

    Dave

  • http://cranialcavity.net/wordpress/index.php Marc

    Thanks Dave

    They have to harp on the past it’s all they got.

    Witness Kerry whimpering about the election again this week. He’s become the ’05 version of a delusional Al Gore.

    Of course Kerry had a head start in the delusional category ie, X-mas in Cambocia, VC the wonder dag, and magic CIA hats where Gore only had invention of the internet.

  • http://georgepope28@hotmail.com Georgio

    Marc and Dave..you have called me stupid and sbv liar..I must have hit a nerve…probaly with the RELIGIOUS FANATIC PARTY LABEL…I visit this site about twice a week and can’t waste my time like you 2 jerks who spend hours trying to be wannabes reporters …get a life and work on getting rid of the religious fanatics in your party..enjoy the ride to doom with this stupid President ..it won’t last forever…

  • MCH

    Yo Marc –

    Since you delight in casting aspertions on a decorated combat veteran (John Kerry: 2 tours in Vietnam, 3 Purle Hearts, 1 Silver Star, 1 Bronze Star); let’s take a peak at your patriot’s military record…

    GW Bush…
    1) Jumped in front of a waiting list of 500 to get into the Guards;
    2) Was awarded lieutenant rank right out of boot camp, bypassing mandatory officer training;
    3) Skipped annual physical, automatically grounding himself from flying, wasting $1 million training;
    4) Abandoned his post the final 2 years of his Guard service, constituting desertion.
    (source, http://www.awolbush.com)

    – MCH, Vietnam era vet
    “Some gave all, all gave some” VVA slogan

  • http://parodieslost.typepad.com Mark Schannon

    I almost hesitate to write anything, given the vitriolic nature of this thread—you illiterate, spineless, dim-witted, narcissitic, solipcistic, arrogant, clueless ___________ (fill in blank: lefties, liberals, neocons, Republicans, Bible-Belters, conservatives, Democrats, Socialists, Communists, Unionists, Baptists, etc.)

    Whew. But, on a serious note, Dave, do you really think “socialists” have taken over the Democratic party? And if so, would you please define socialism? Having worked in the party for years, my complaint is that it’s too centrist. We make Wonderbread look like home made French bread. (Just kidding, not French, maybe Italian.)

    No one takes socialism seriously anymore (o.k., we used to, we were wrong…it sucks.)

    And your list of the rulers of the evil empire may have a lot of voice–they don’t have a lot of clout when it comes down to the nuts & bolts. (I know you disagree.)

    Also, what’s the difference between a leftie & a liberal? In other threads, I thought we’d gotten to the point where we’d almost perhaps agreed that “liberal” and “conservative” were devoid of any meaning?

    And, while I’m asking, do you know the way to San Jose?

    People! We all need to lighten up & have fun while Rome burns. Buy a fiddle. Learn some tunes. Sing & dance. Drink Irish Whiskey.

    This site is going to get boring if insults and exageration become the norm. (And if someone doesn’t put a damn spell checker on it.)

    So there!

  • SFC SKI

    Maybe the way in which this thread has degenerated from a practical examination of the threat to the usual partisan name-calling is a metaphor for why more hasn’t been done to address the threat. We’ll be arguing seating arrangements while the rats run through the dining hall at this rate.

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    Mark S, you can install a spell checker for your browser so that you can spell check any form field on any web page just by right-clicking.

    For IE, see IE spell.

    For Firefox, see Spellbound.

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    Damn HTML!

    For IE, see IE Spell.

  • http://www.bhwblog.com bhw

    Oh sure, now both links show up.

  • sonja valentine

    I know the way to san jose…

  • Shark

    Nalle’s standard fare:

    post some screaming, distorted headline “The Terrorists Have a Web Site!” — (with an exclamation point, to boot),

    fill with a few paragraphs of meaningless Chicken Little, tin-foil hat with an American flag stuck in it shit,

    and then CUT TO THE MONEY SHOT:

    “It’s no wonder that it’s so difficult to have sensible conversations with leftists here in the US who’ve become infected by the delusional mindset of their international brothers…. yada yada yada…”

    Dave, here’s a tip; it’s difficult to have sensible conversations with “us” here because we read between the lines of your posts — and figure it’s just a matter of time before your hate speech turns into something really dangerous.

    You’re a right wing whack job, Dave, and none of ‘us’ take you seriously.

    Next post:

    “DAVE NALLE HAS A WEB SITE!”

    scary, eh.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Mark S: “Whew. But, on a serious note, Dave, do you really think “socialists” have taken over the Democratic party? ”

    They’ve taken it over or at the least are trying to take it over in the same way that the Neocons have done in the Republican party. They are forming a hard nucleus of highly motivated fundraisers, guaranteed voters and organizers on whom they hope to make the party dependent. That’s what moveon.org is all about. They don’t control the party yet, but if they can deliver that core group of votes they get a real voice in setting the agenda.

    It’s very much the same thing as we’re seeing in the Republican party. Bush, Cheney and most of the executive branch folks aren’t religious fanatics, but they have to make deals to keep the Neocons happy because thye control just enough votes that they can guarantee to turn out that they are too valuable to blow off.

    Mark S: “And if so, would you please define socialism?”

    Well, at the most basic level it’s a system which prefers state control of resources and economic production, and collective control of production facilities by the workers. In a more pragmatic, modern context it means tight government control of industry, including direct control of wages, prices and working conditions. Contemporary socialists don’t seek to nationalize industries the way they once did, they just want a very close marriage of business and government, which unfortunately puts a LOT of power in the hands of government economic managers to give favorable treatment to selected businesses. This is where George Soros comes in. He’s made his fortune by working with quasi-socialistic states whcih control access to natural resources and production facilities within their countries and have given him preferential treatment and access to them.

    Mark S: “Having worked in the party for years, my complaint is that it’s too centrist. We make Wonderbread look like home made French bread. (Just kidding, not French, maybe Italian.) ”

    That would have been my complaint about the Republican Party 30 years ago. I would have liked to see the party move towards a more idealistic, Libertarian model – a Goldwater party. But instead, during that 30 year period they moved in an entirely different direction because they started recruiting disaffected southern Democrats. Now they form this Neocon bloc and things are even worse than they were in the day of Rockefeller Republicanism.

    Mark S: “And your list of the rulers of the evil empire may have a lot of voice–they don’t have a lot of clout when it comes down to the nuts & bolts. (I know you disagree.)”

    I do, and I think you’re fooling yourself. That wing of your party certainly has as many seats in Congress as real Neocons do, and their fundraising ability is going to buy them a real voice in Democratic party policy.

    Mark S: “Also, what’s the difference between a leftie & a liberal? In other threads, I thought we’d gotten to the point where we’d almost perhaps agreed that “liberal” and “conservative” were devoid of any meaning?”

    Exactly. That’s why I prefer to say ‘leftist’ rather than Liberal, because very little about the modern Democratic party is classically Liberal, and the quasi-socialists are anything but liberal.

    Dave

  • http://www.taospost.com MDE

    re:”at the most basic level it’s a system which prefers state control of resources and economic production, and collective control of production facilities by the workers. In a more pragmatic, modern context it means tight government control of industry, including direct control of wages, prices and working conditions.”

    When you bracket the collective control of production facilities by the workers (an historical fantasy) Dave Nalle’s definition of ‘socialism’ equates with one of ‘facism’… state control, National Socialism etc. Hard to argue with. This confusion of language was introduced by the proto Nazis in the late 20’s early 30’s. Steal your opponents handle and fuzzy up his message – basic propoganda 101.

    Since WWII, the Nalle definition has been generally accepted. European countries with strong government control over the rules of production are called ‘socialist’ despite the fact that capitalists control the means of production.

    Socialists at a more basic level desire to implement some system of production based on the idea of ‘from each according to his ability to each according to his need’.

    Anti state-ism was basic to the thinking of early socialist theorists. See for example Marx’s concept of the ‘withering away of the state’ in which no revolution can be complete until production goes on without any state to enforce ‘the rules’.

    Any socialist worth his salt would have nothing to do with the Dems, the Repubs,or any other corporatists.

    Mark

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “(source, http://www.awolbush.com)”

    Well, THAT is an unbiased source…

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Can’t really argue with you there, Mark. No one is trying to bring idealized socialism to America or anywhere much else in the world. My definition works just fine for the brand of statist eurosocialism we see in play around the world today and which people like moveon.org would like to see here in America.

    BTW, the collectivism you call a historic fantasy is exactly what groups like the IWW (wobblies) are trying to make a reality. I realize they’re hopelessly idealistic, but of all the socialist ideas it’s one of the few which I think has some real merit. We see the idea at work in at least some form in things like coop stores and membership consumer clubs, and it could be put to work successfully elsewhere. Historically it DID work, particularly in some of the utopian movements of the antebellum period here in the US.

    Dave

  • http://www.taospost.com MDE

    Dave – Let’s take back the language! Give ‘socialism’ back to the wobblies and social theorists and use ‘feel good fascist’ for the agenda that you oppose.

    I’ll have to get back to you on the successes of collectivism in history. As I read them, most (not all) of the utopian experiments were exercises in benevolent dictatorship.

    Mark

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>Dave – Let’s take back the language! Give ‘socialism’ back to the wobblies and social theorists and use ‘feel good fascist’ for the agenda that you oppose. < <

    Well, that has a certain charm, but since the Europeans are calling it socialism we sort of have to follow their lead.

    >>I’ll have to get back to you on the successes of collectivism in history. As I read them, most (not all) of the utopian experiments were exercises in benevolent dictatorship.<<

    That’s what anarchist/socialist systems almost inevitably turn into.

    Dave

  • http://www.taospost.com MDE

    re:”since the Europeans are calling it socialism we sort of have to follow their lead.”

    Why? If you allow the statists to define the realm of discourse, you will spend alot of your time arguing with confused ‘lefties’.

    Mark

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    I’ll spend a lot of my time arguing with confused leftists no matter what I do, MDE. It’s in their nature to be leftist, confused and argumentative. If they became clearheaded and ceased to be leftist then we’d have little left to argue about except which type of social security privatization plan is best for the people.

    As for allowing them to define the terms, since they do get confused easily, working within the parameters which they’ve set makes the whole process of discourse less traumatizing for them. Trying to teach them new terminology as well as a more humane worldview is a lot ot expect.

    Dave

  • http://www.taospost.com MDE

    re:”It’s in their nature to be leftist, confused and argumentative.”

    Most of the leftists that you argue with consider themselves to be humanists. I suggest to them that they will profit from a closer examination of the fascist nature of their proposals.

    We can argue about other things like, what will happen in a modern capitalist state if too much economic power is privatized? Might this not lead to a general dissatisfaction amoung workers who think that it’s the state’s responsibility to keep ‘the profit motive’ in check?

    Mark

  • http://www.markiscranky.org Mark Saleski

    It’s in their nature to be leftist, confused and argumentative. If they became clearheaded and ceased to be leftist then we’d have little left to argue about except which type of social security privatization plan is best for the people.

    and this is why (with a few recent exceptions) i’m gone from the politics commentary (ya, rejoice & clap…whatever)

    it’s one this to have opinions that differ from others’.

    it’s quite another to believe that your opinions are ‘correct’, that they somehow have more intrinsic worth.

    sorry, they do not.

    arrogance and condescention has spread around this site, and it’s a sad thing.

    and repeated

  • http://www.taospost.com MDE

    re:”and this is why (with a few recent exceptions) i’m gone from the politics commentary”

    Pardon the coming bitch. BUT You do that. Go work out a few of the contradictions in your liberal position and come on back.

    Where people who disagree get together, you must expect a fair amount of grandstanding, shadow boxing, sputtering, arrogance and condescension. Running from the room screaming in Charlie Brown fashion is a sham and a shame.

    Mark

  • http://www.markiscranky.org Mark Saleski

    and what would the contradictions be?

    and i don’t have to expect any arrogance and condescension.

    i don’t happen to agree on how things should work. that’s doesn’t make my positions ‘correct’, just different.

    and i do try to not ever call somebody ‘stupid’ or ‘dim’.

  • http://www.taospost.com MDE

    re:”and what would the contradictions be”

    Relying on the notion of a benevolent state capitalism to implement a humanist agenda, for example.

    re:”that doesn’t make my positions ‘correct’, just different.”

    No need to introduce relativism here … stand up for the correctness of your opinions, I say.

    re:”and i do try to not ever call somebody ‘stupid’ or ‘dim’.”

    To me, the name calling is just sputtering.

    Mark

  • http://www.markiscranky.org Mark Saleski

    Relying on the notion of a benevolent state capitalism to implement a humanist agenda

    i don’t in fact see those things as necessarily being contradictory.

    though i have to admit that i’m not sure what you mean by ‘benevolent state capitalism’.

    oh, forget it, let’s just call me stupid and be done with it. 😉

  • http://www.taospost.com MDE

    I’ll give it a shot:

    A humanist agenda would be to make quality medical care available to all. To ensure a rational and predictable system, production of medical supplies under capitalism is governed by the ‘invisible hand’ behind the maximization of profit principle – “Charge whatever the market will bare.” But the market will bare incredible prices in matters of life and death. Without some controlling agency, poor people would be priced out of not just medical care beyond the most basic, but even affordable insurance coverage – a commodity, after all, for which insurance companies must charge as much as they can. For many, this is the present state of affairs.

    So what’s the liberal state to do? Step in with price controls that will threaten production overall, or stay out of it and allow prices to spiral on as they are doing now. Actual people are damned either way. See the contradiction?

    Have at me folks!

    Mark

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    >>A humanist agenda would be to make quality medical care available to all.<<

    I’m with you to a point here, MDE, but it seems to me that the best solution to this kind of problem is always the least government involvement possible. Rather than excessive regulation or a universal health plan what we need is a solution which remains mostly private for those who can afford it, and takes the burden of those who can’t afford it off the backs of the insurance companies, the hospitals and those who do pay for health insurance. The uninsured are one of the biggest factors driving up prices for everyone else. The perfect definition of the proper role for a government is to leave the part of the system that works alone and focus on those uninsured people with a program that provides them with some sort of default coverage. It should be free, inconvenient and a pain in the ass – to encourage them to move off of it and into the private system when they can afford it – but it should be there.

    Dave

  • http://www.taospost.com MDE

    re:”The uninsured are one of the biggest factors driving up prices for everyone else.”

    I don’t know enough about the factors controling medical services pricing to carry this discussion much further. I do wonder where the brake on prices is in the outlined system. What are the other ‘biggest factors’ driving up the prices that remain to be looked at?

    Is there a road back to a thread somewhere near?

    Mark

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    “It should be free, inconvenient and a pain in the ass – to encourage them to move off of it and into the private system when they can afford it – but it should be there.”

    Amen!

    But it IS there. Only it’s not “free” to the US taxpayer, and it isn’t nearly inconvenient enough to those who wallow in poverty…

  • http://www.taospost.com MDE

    OK RJ, I’ll bite

    re:”it isn’t nearly inconvenient enough to those who wallow in poverty…”

    I’m not clear on why you are so down on poor people as evidenced by your wishing them more unpleasant experiences in the ER. Despite what is claimed by apologists, capitalism is not a win/win game. Gluts and shortages of labor are and have been common. It can be argued that some level of poverty is required to keep the gears turning. ‘Wallowing in poverty’ might not be much of a general characteristic.

    not saying that large groups of people have not been ‘pushed’ into dependency through poorly though out economic handouts/incentives, nor that more government programs (or religious charity) would help.

    not implying that an individual should have any way to change his situations except through his own actions.

    Is your problem with poverty one of aesthetics?

    Hey, and what about those not so poor who hide assets and apply to indigent funds after getting medical services putting the squeeze on hospitals? Don’t that just chap your hide?

    Mark

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    It’s not the poor who are currently the problem, it’s two other groups – illegal immigrants who are not covered by insurance or medicaid and people who are neither poor nor middle class who could afford insurance, but choose not to make it a priority.

    If you ever go to the emergency room the problem with illegals becomes immediately apparent. They use the ER as if it were a health clinic, a function to which it is not suited and which it does inefficiently and very expensively. This reduces the quality of emergency care for everyone and since the hospital covers these unreimbursed costs they are passed on as higher rates to those who are insured or can afford to pay.

    Those who are too well off for medicaid and yet choose not to pay for insurance are a different kind of problem. They’re the ones who need to be targeted with some sort of new government program. These are mostly people earning between $25K and $40K a year who in many cases could afford insurance, but don’t have it. This is often because they are young and feel invulnerable, or because they have other priorities for how they spend their money. My proposal for them would be to involuntarily enroll them in a government-run insurance program the moment they show up at an ER. Provide them the services they need and then garnish their wages for the insurance premiums as if they had been insured when they went into the ER. The premiums should be lower than regular insurance, but the coverage they get should be accordingly limited. It should cover maybe 2 ER visits a year and a couple of visits to a GP. If they want more service they should either have to pay more or go get real insurance. And the government should help them out – maybe hit them with a big bill for government insurance services and offer the option of cancelling that debt if they go out and get real insurance and pay the premiums for 6 months.

    Dave

  • http://www.taospost.com MDE

    re”My proposal for them would be to involuntarily enroll them in a government-run insurance program the moment they show up at an ER”…etc.

    A fair though harsh sounding proposal. (And so liberal – excuse me while I go polish up my jack boots.) Sweeten it, package it and sell it!

    Mark

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Well, if we have to resort to a state-funded program for people who ought to be taking responsibility for themselves it ought to be somewhat draconian.

    Dave

  • http://parodieslost.typepad.com Mark Schannon

    I’ve been off on secret government business so I haven’t been able to respond to the responses to my response…oh never mind.

    BHW–thanks for speech check link. I’ll see if I can get it to work.

    Dave N. So much has been discussed re: your comments to me, I still have a problem with the word “socialism” because it’s too broad, as a number of people have noted. Any word that can be a substitute for fascism or communism has certainly lost its meaning.

    Do Democrats tend to want more gov’t control than Repubicans. Sure…are we happy about how the government does it? Not those with more than 4 functional brain cells.

    I worked for years in the chemical industry & I’m proud of that—because of how they cleaned up their act thanks to being brow beaten by environmentalists and the government. It’s not that they were bad people–they just didn’t think beyond their narrow worlds.

    I once asked a plant manager how the soil under his parking lot was contaminated with 25% PCBs (not 25 parts per million, 25 percent!) and he shrugged and said, “well, twenty years ago, we didn’t know any better, so when the PCBs got contaminated, we just dumped them out the window.”

    He also had installed monitoring wells around the entire area and called in local authorities to oversee the project to ensure the PCBS weren’t going anywhere.

    You wrote, “Contemporary socialists don’t seek to nationalize industries the way they once did, they just want a very close marriage of business and government, which unfortunately puts a LOT of power in the hands of government economic managers to give favorable treatment to selected businesses.”

    I agree completely that this is a very bad thing. But wait, Haliburton. Cheney. Dick Cheney’s a socialist! (I still don’t have spell checker.)

    Republicans have been doing this since Ralph the caveman crawled out of his cave and opened a rock factory. Unfortunately, it’s the sordid side of politics–on both aisles.

  • http://www.roblogpolitics.blogspot.com RJ

    Look, I only make 20-some thou a year, and I work for a small franchise business, so therefore health insurance costs are relatively high for me.

    But, you know what? I PAY these costs, rather than become a taxpayer-freeloader.

    I willingly agree to pay for my own health, dental, and vision coverage (as well as STD and LTD).

    This all costs me over 200 dollars per month.

    But it’s worth it.

    Any idiot working at 7-11 could do the same, if s/he chose to.

    Whining about the poor does not change the facts. They just need to work full-time and get a roommate if needed.

  • SFC SKI

    I never thought you could tie ME terroristts to America’s working poor, but like “6 Degrees of Kevin Bacon” you’ve done it.

  • godoggo

    Mark Saleski: there are of course many, many political blogs both left and right whose creators and participants are not jerks. For the right side I recommend Econlog and Daniel Drezner. Personally I come here for the fluff.

  • godoggo

    (I’m a leftist BTW)

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>I agree completely that this is a very bad thing. But wait, Haliburton. Cheney. Dick Cheney’s a socialist! (I still don’t have spell checker.)<<

    It’s not assigning contracts to pet companies which makes you a socialist, but the practice of government taking over enterprises which could be done privately, which creates the opportunity for more favoritism. The contracts which Halliburton gets are mostly in areas which are already government monopolies by default and probably should be, though I suppose I could support privatizing the army.

    Dave

  • http://paperfrigate.blogspot.com DrPat

    [holding head] Oh, Dave, it’s too early for puns! (privatizing the army).

    I quit caring about Haliburton scut two months after it started to be a chant from the opposition to Dick Cheney. It’s too much like the flack Fluor went through after they bid on (and won) the contract to build coal gasification plants in apartheid-era South Africa.

    See, there are few companies that do what Haliburton does. They dominate their niche of the industry by doing it well, efficiently, and in some cases, exclusively – not due to favors from the administration but because they are willing to go where the job is.

    The strongest evidence I can present is that Haliburton gets contracts even with no Bush in the White House…

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Exactly, Dr.Pat and both the other companies which could do the job are French owned companies – and I’m all for buying American.

    Dave

  • no name

    go out of iraq

  • Princess

    You know what you all can sit at your computers all day. And sit here and fight over who is wrong or right or even about which American is brainwashed. But i am going to tell you this. I know that alot of you don’t believe in god or think that theres another life out there after we die. Well i have one thing to say to all of you. Killing was never ment to be the right thing to do. You look down apon women but guess what more women go farther in society then men do now. And OH YEAH they produce more life. If a man was put in a womens shoes for pregnancy they wouldnt last a minute. argue about that. But im not brainwashed about that either because thats a scientific fact. So the day a man can take on womens life style then maybe I’ll listen to your bull shit but i doubt it. People that sit her saying that the world is brainwashing everyone. Have you ever sat down and listened to your self. You sound like the biggest dumb ass i’ve ever heard in my life. Someone that has be rebelling their whole lifes, and has nothing better to do but, try to start drama. A “look at me, look at me” plea. Get real you need help. But all these words really mean nothing because the day God comes whether you believe or not the day is coming and you will learn the hard way just like everything else in your life. And he will show you that you were wrong in your beliefs.So im no longer going to waste my time talking to you. All i can do i pray for you and hope that you change you ways. But only God has the last call and will your be spending eternal life in Heaven or Dieing in Hell? I guess thats for you to find out and pray about. But for every murder and rapiest out there God is watching and your time is coming.

  • cj

    i really wanna be a terrorist