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The Struggle Continues…. James Dobson: Ideological Extremist?

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When the president told us that we are now in the midst of a struggle against ideological extremism (and no longer fighting a war on terrorism), he sure wasn’t kidding. (See video here in .mov format) So far, here at The Bulldog Manifesto, we have ‘struggled against’ uber-extremists Ann Coulter, Pat Robertson, and the so-called Christian group named Christian Exodus. Today, the struggle continues.

In the spotlight today is Focus on the Family’s James Dobson. Is he an ideological extremist? You decide.

Recently, James Dobson came under fire for his comparison of embryonic stem cell doctors to Nazi experimentation ‘doctors’. In doing so, Mr. Dobson said:

“In World War II, the Nazis experimented on human beings in horrible ways in the concentration camps, and I imagine, if you wanted to take the time to read about it, there would have been some discoveries there that benefited mankind.” — Media Matters

Interesting view, don’t you think?

But what about the time Mr. Dobson accused the cartoon character SpongBob Squarepants of being a vehicle for “pro-gay propoganda”. Specifically, Mr. Dobson accused this cartoon video (Requires Internet Explorer 6.0) of promoting homosexuality. After you watch the video (which is located half way down the link’s webpage) do you think the video is even remotely suggestive of homosexuality?

Regarding homosexuality, Mr. Dobson believes that “Homosexuals are not monogamous. They want to destroy the institution of marriage. It will destroy marriage. It will destroy the Earth”(The Daily Oklahoman, Oct. 23rd, 2004. He also believes that homosexuality is a mental disorder, that same-sex couples are unfit parents, that homosexuality can be cured, and that gays and lesbians are “sick, ungodly” people who want “special rights.”

But not only is Mr. Dobson a self-procalimed expert on the ungodly nature of gay people, but he is also a self-proclaimed expert in child rearing. In fact, Mr. Dobson is a firm believer in hitting your child until the child cries.

“[P]ain is a marvelous purifier. . . It is not necessary to beat the child into submission; a little bit of pain goes a long way for a young child. However, the spanking should be of sufficient magnitude to cause the child to cry genuinely.” — Dare to Discipline, pages 6-7

And where, might you ask, did Mr. Dobson confirm his belief that physical pain can be a good tool for teaching a child? From beating his dog, of course:

Please don’t misunderstand me. Siggie is a member of our family and we love him dearly. And despite his anarchistic nature, I have finally taught him to obey a few simple commands. However, we had some classic battles before he reluctantly yielded to my authority.

The greatest confrontation occurred a few years ago when I had been in Miami for a three-day conference. I returned to observe that Siggie had become boss of the house while I was gone. But I didn’t realize until later that evening just how strongly he felt about his new position as Captain.

At eleven o’clock that night, I told Siggie to go get into his bed, which is a permanent enclosure in the family room. For six years I had given him that order at the end of each day, and for six years Siggie had obeyed.

On this occasion, however, he refused to budge. You see, he was in the bathroom, seated comfortably on the furry lid of the toilet seat. That is his favorite spot in the house, because it allows him to bask in the warmth of a nearby electric heater…

When I told Sigmund to leave his warm seat and go to bed, he flattened his ears and slowly turned his head toward me. He deliberately braced himself by placing one paw on the edge of the furry lid, then hunched his shoulders, raised his lips to reveal the molars on both sides, and uttered his most threatening growl. That was Siggie’s way of saying. “Get lost!”

I had seen this defiant mood before, and knew there was only one way to deal with it. The ONLY way to make Siggie obey is to threaten him with destruction. Nothing else works. I turned and went to my closet and got a small belt to help me “reason” with Mr. Freud.

What developed next is impossible to describe. That tiny dog and I had the most vicious fight ever staged between man and beast. I fought him up one wall and down the other, with both of us scratching and clawing and growling and swinging the belt. I am embarrassed by the memory of the entire scene. Inch by inch I moved him toward the family room and his bed. As a final desperate maneuver, Siggie backed into the corner for one last snarling stand. I eventually got him to bed, only because I outweighed him 200 to 12! — The Strong Willed Child

And to think, perhaps he could have just picked the tiny dog and moved him to his bed. Nah! Much better to go get the belt and prove a point to Siggie. He’ll be damned if that 12 pound dog gets the better of him. And heck, if it works on Siggie, its good for your child too. Excellent reasoning, Mr. Dobson. Excellent!

For guys like James Dobson, if you don’t obey what he wants, you are an enemy of “God’s people”. Don’t believe me? Well, James Dobson called Senator Patrick Leahy an “enemy of God’s people”. Yup, because Senator Leahy has (thankfully) opposed many of Mr. Dobson’s ‘thought police’ measures, Dobson branded Senator Leahy an enemy of “God’s people”. I guess that means that Mr. Dobson believes that he is at the head of “God’s people”.

Is James Dobson an ideological extremist? I think so. What do you think?

Ed/Pub:LM

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About The Bulldog Manifesto

  • http://victorplenty.blogspot.com Victor Plenty

    Dobson’s encounter with the dog is revealing in more ways than one. Yes, it is shockingly brutal to use a belt on a 12-pound dog. No doubt about that, no matter how much the man attempts to mask it with blather about being boss of the house.

    Beyond that, it’s telling to note how Dobson’s authoritarian presence in his household leaves the rest of his family so ineffectual, they are all being pushed around by a 12-pound dog after Dobson himself has been gone for only three days.

    The fundamentalist view of the male as the “boss of the house” has destructive effects much more far-reaching than this, of course. That remains true no matter whether the fundamentalism is Christian, Muslim, or some other variant. This example merely illustrates one small way such unhealthy family relationships weaken everyone involved in them.

  • Georgio

    A better way to handle this would be to put a heater near the dogs bed..however this takes common sense ..something that fundies don’t have..

  • http://www.iamcorrect.com Lono

    I regard Dobson and his posse as a bigger threat to American than the Taliban or Al Queda. He is a very dangerous and powerful individual whose only concerns are selfish and psychotic power grabs.

  • http://www.talk2action.org Bruce Wilson

    Who the hell would write about an epic confrontation with a 12 pound house pet ?

    Dobson, I guess.

    The whole affair sounds like a sadomasochistic version of a bad Hanna-Barbara animation.

    Oddly, the 12 pound dog seems to have been, at points in the fracas, beating Dobson with the belt while Dobson was scratching and clawing at the dog.

    “I fought him up one wall and down the other, with both of us scratching and clawing and growling and swinging the belt. I am embarrassed by the memory of the entire scene.”

    It sounds like the Marines fighting to take Iwo Jima or something. That must have been one heavily fortified twelve pound dog – I bet it had the belt and was whipping Dobson on the ascent .

    Now, what kind of man allows a 12 pound housepet to whip him with a belt ? I’d be embarassed to talk about that too. Is it even legal ? It sounds a little kinky, like some permutation of a bestiality fetish.

    Hmmm…

    I’m sure it’s possible to train a 12 pound dog to wield a belt to mean effect, but Dobson must have spent an awfully long time training the dog to do that. Maybe it’s what he does in his spare time when he’s not excoriating Spongebob Squarepants or accusing gays of plotting the destruction of Western Civilization.

    I think Dobson should take his anger management issues out on foes his own size. Or maybe even, just so he gets a sense of what it’s like to be assaulted by a much larger attacker, he should try disciplining a mid-sized Grizzly Bear.

    Dobson could use his belt, just to even it up a bit.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    The world would be a better place if Dobson spent more time training his dog and less time trying to impose his set of beliefs on the rest of us.

    Dave

  • http://ideaplace.blogspot.com Randy Kirk

    You have no idea about the man. You will take the few items you suck up from other Dobson haters and repeat them here. Read the whole book. Then review it.

    Review the whole website. Then review.

    Read the biographies. Then decide.

    Ask the folks who have been touched by this man. Then decide. I personally know dozens and dozens of people who have had their lives personally improved by his work or by Focus.

    And the millions who follow him are about 80% moms and grandma’s who are just trying to raise their families in a way that the kids and grandkids will end up doing well.

    Sad. Very sad.

  • http://gratefuldread.net Natalie Davis

    Mr. Kirk, read comment 39 on this post. Just because there are people who disagree with Dobson’s work and motivations doesn’t mean they necessarily don’t know the facts about the man and his organization. For some, it is quite the contrary.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Indeed, Ms. Davis. We must keep our friends close but our enemies closer. Dobson is an enemy of humanity, the living wolf in sheep’s clothing. Politicians better develop courage in the next two election cycles. The conservative tide is about to peak because it has welcomed the poltics of intolerance and hate spewed by Dobson, Robertson and Falwell – the Holy Trinity of Intrinsic Evil.

    A month ago I would try and find common ground. I would urge for open mindedness and dialog. The door to that opportunity has been shut and sealed. There will always be intolerance in one form or another. I accept that premise. I will no longer tolerate the religious fundamentalist machine trampling over my Constitution. I will no longer tolerate those with extreme right wing or left wing views to beat me into submission by using economic warfare. There may be a physical war being fought in the Middle East but there is an intellectual war occuring here in America and I have just signed up for the battle.

  • http:///www.talk2action.org Bruce Wilson

    Natalie – Did you know that there are still millions of Russians who swear by Joseph Stalin ? Doubtless, they felt touched by “Uncle Joe”….

    I have had the experience of watching a nephew raised under Dr. Dobson’s advice on the physical disciplining of children. I noticed a distinct personality shift – away from irrepressible exuberance and toward a taciturn sulleness. It seemed unfortunate to me. I wonder about the countless children “touched” per Dobson’s advice…by belt-whipping and physical blows.

    On other fronts, the level of hate-speech Dr. Dobson excretes concerning the supposed evils associated with homosexuality remind me of the Biblical principle of “False Witness” .

    I would assume that principle would demand an honest attempt to research the factual nature of one’s claims. I have seen little evidence of such attempts from Dobson and so I call him for what I perceive him to be :

    A hypocritical purveyor of hate speech.

    Words have effects, and hateful words tend to incite violence. The incitement of violence is neither Christian nor – according to Jesus – is judgement.

    I would suggest Mr. Dobson remove the log from his own eye.

  • http://gratefuldread.net Natalie Davis

    Mr. Wilson, you’ve hit it spot on. I have dealt with many of Dobson’s devotees. Lord knows I don’t want to be like them.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    On other fronts, the level of hate-speech Dr. Dobson excretes concerning the supposed evils associated with homosexuality remind me of the Biblical principle of “False Witness” .

    Bravo, Mr. Wilson, you are spot on! Where is our anger? Why aren’t more people – gay, straight or human – rising up? It’s high time the intimidated become the intimidators. Here are three things we can do:

    1) Demand a full revamping of campaign finance in this land and don’t stop until Congress actually does something proactive.

    2) Establish an economic boycott of any corporation which remotely approves or promotes the agenda of the extreme right.

    3) Demand that Congress enact legislation whereby any organized religious group be subject to IRS scrutiny and tax assessment on any monies spent by said organizations which are targeted to influence the discharge of civil government.

  • http://gratefuldread.net Natalie Davis

    I’m in, Mr. Kain. Problem is, your nation has an even more pervasive threat than Dr. Dobson and his followers:

    APATHY.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Indeed, Ms. Davis. And that apathy is perpetuated by Dobson and his clan. Somehow there has to be a way to get more Americans to see that this Pied Piper of Propaganda is the personification of evil.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    You will take the few items you suck up from other Dobson haters

    how quick we are to label those who disagree with Dobson as haters, when just days previous on another thread, we point out that just because Dobson disagrees doesn’t mean he hates.

    Just because we resent a man telling us that the way he beats a dog is the way to raise our kids doesn’t mean we hate him.

  • gonzo marx

    Silas sez..
    *There may be a physical war being fought in the Middle East but there is an intellectual war occuring here in America and I have just signed up for the battle.*

    nice to have you aboard, Silas..
    ..:::hands him his insignia and uniform:::..
    good to have you back here at BC, ya were missed…

    so, any further ideas on the new Party?

    06 should be fun , kiddies..get everyone you know involved…healthy debate..learning about the good folks on each side of the aisle, and total grassroots discussion

    that’s the american way, as doen by our Founders…

    i’m for taking it back form the “professional” political elite, and their K street masters

    how about you?

    isn’t it apparant, that for the most part, reasonable real folks can talk, and work out stuff..hell, even agree on many matters

    it’s the spin meisters and paid pundits that try and separate us, and keep us at each others throats…why?

    because it’s good for the nation?

    fuck no…because it’s good for their wallets

    as long as everyone thinks the “other side” is made up of nothing but hyper-extremeists, and are as “evil” as punditry says they are…nothing gets done, because we remain split…sometimes one side up, other times down…but always by just a few percentage points…

    think a second, don’t you find that most falks you actually know, no matter their professed political inclinations, can agree on a lot fo stuff?

    so why can’t Washington?

    because they don’t want to..keeping the Citizens divided, keeps them in Power and keeps the $$$ flowing from K street lobbyists so they can rape and ruin our Nation to line their pockets…

    “I’ve got no patience now,
    so sick of complacence now.
    time…has..come…for…US…to…
    RAGE!”

    Zach de la Rocha

    nuff said?

    Excelsior!

  • http://www.talk2action.org Bruce Wilson

    Natalie – I’m fairly certain that my relative in question moved gradually away from corporal punishment for his kids.

    The boys seemed to get it the worst, but by the time of the 3rd child her irrepressibility didn’t go away over time and so I assume that the belt or giant spoon or whatever had been put away in the closet more or less for good.

    I’ll say this too, to be fair :

    Though there are aspects of the family culture of the Christian right that I have seen which I strongly dislike, there are other aspects I admire :

    Anti-consumerism, thrift, self-reliance, and the prioritization of family needs.

    Those aren’t values held solely by the Christian right, but they are good values nonetheless. Indeed, I learned those values from my parents – who were committed liberals.

    For example, my father – a Methodist minister and later a teacher and university administrator – never bought much of anything for himself. After he had died, I looked at his guitar – which had a horribly bowed neck. It would have never occured to him to but a new one for himself even though he loved to play. But, I looked closer – he had repaired one of the strings which had broken by looping the broken string end through the eye of a tiny cotter pin and tying it, to extend the broken string’s length. He had fed the cotter pin ends through the guitar bridge and wound the two ends of the pin around a tiny nail to hold it in place. It just didn’t occur to my father to spend money on himself though he was generous with money when it came to his children. He had grown up during the Great Depression, in hardscrabble Pennsylvania coal towns, but not all of his generation were so frugal – or so selfless.

    That ethic of frugality and prioritization of family needs transcends left and right and is less than common now.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Steve, I know it’s strong, but I hate him. Never in my life have I been at a point where I have loathed someone as much as Dobson and what he stands for.

  • http://gratefuldread.net Natalie Davis

    Same here, Mr. Wilson, re: the values. (Shout-out to mom and dad and grandma genevieve…) But that is just it — one doesn’t have to follow the fundies’ beliefs and rules to be a good, moral person. Too many things done and said by Dobson are, IMO, completely immoral and anti-Christian. Whatever his good works, they are obscured by the immensity of his dangerous works and words.

    It pleases me that perhaps your relative eventually decided to spare the rod. Violence begets violence.

    “I’ve got no patience now,
    so sick of complacence now.
    time…has..come…for…US…to…
    RAGE!”

    Rock on and rage on, Mr. Marx. RATM ruled.

  • http://www.talk2action.org Bruce Wilson

    On apathy :

    As I have learned about the Christian right, my level of political involvement has steadily risen – almost in direct proportion to my increase in knowledge of the threat posed by Dominionist, Reconstructionist, and other theocratic tendencies.

    I blame the apathy of the American electorate on ignorance and also on pernicious and wishful concepts such as the “Pendulum” theory of American politics which holds that a magic force almost like a law of physics pulls extremist tendencies always back towards the center.

    But – in reality – is it always the tireless work of concerned and politically engaged individuals that fends off political extremism and preserves pluralistic democracy.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    What I find interesting is that people of very different perspectives, like Silas Kain, Steve S, Natalie Davis and myself, can all despise Dobson for entirely different reasons. His hatefulness is so pervasive and displayed in so many different arenas that almost anyone can find some reason not to like him.

    Anyone who values our basic liberties is going to have problems wiht Dobson. if you take his entire agenda and line it up with the Bill of Rights, you can pretty much find him speaking out in opposition to every fundamental principle of freedom our nation is built on, except perhaps the right to bear arms. He’s against free speech, he’s against freedom of religion, he’s against privacy rights – frankly it’s scary and fundamentally unamerican.

    Dave

  • http://www.talk2action.org Bruce Wilson

    In short, I’m of the Frederick Clarkson school of response to the religious right :

    The American left must re-engage and re-learn the techniques of electoral democracy…

    Or face state enforcement of theocratic legislation enacted by Dr. Dobson and his ilk – bans on contraception, forced marriage and penalties for “wilfull” childlessness, death penalties for adultery and homosexuality….

    Those are all positions advocated by the leaders and theologians of the Christian right movement – which I favor calling the Christian supremacist right.

    Those extreme positions I mentioned will only be advanced incrementally, but even now approximately 41 US Senators ( all GOP ) enjoy a 100% voting approval rating from the Christian Coalition.

    Think of that as the earliest stage of a “Theocracy-lite”. The stronger version – without concerted opposition from the left – will come in due time.

  • http://gratefuldread.net Natalie Davis

    Point of clarification: I do not despite James Dobson. I despise what he says and does. Big difference. Same with Dubya, for that matter. I don’t believe in hating people. It’s better to pray for Dobson or send out healing beams for him rather than to despise him.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Thank you for the kind words and warm welcome back, Mr. Marx. Stay tuned, I am working diligently on crafting my campaign reform war. The tragic events of last month set me back a bit but now that the dust is settled and my head is clear it is damn the torpedoes.

    Interesting side bar — anyone watching some of the coverage of Peter Jennings’ passing may have picked up upon the fact that he was quite skeptical of this government. He went so far as to say early on that he was not convinced there were weapons of mass destruction. He may not have shared his views immediately with America but behind the scenes he was working to find the truth. We’ve lost another great journalist. Now ABC will replace him with a pretty face that is more in tune with demographics and making news divisions profitable. Rest in peace, Mr. Jennings. You served humanity well.

  • gonzo marx

    aAAaaaRRrgGGGhhhh!!!!

    Mr Marx?

    ok, so now i’m “mister scribbles”??

    ah well…

    {8^P~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    silly to capitalize, or treat the pun of my screen name as a proper name…but hell, call me anything ya like, except late fer dinner…

    on another note…

    i am truly sorry you had Tragedy, Silas..my best for you and yours…and i am glad ot have your “voice” back here

    i meant it when i said you were missed…and not just by lil ole me

    Excelsior!

  • http://gratefuldread.net Natalie Davis

    GM, sorry, but you know my queasiness about familiarity. “Gonzo Marx” is the only name I have for you.

    And now that you mention it, indeed, it is good to have Mr. Kain back. I pray that all is well.

  • gonzo marx

    no worries, Ms Davis..was as much to make silas laugh as you

    gonzo is just fine…an “absurd” nomme de Net, i wear with perverse glee

    besides, grandpa groucho would like his “mark” left on this medium i’m sure..

    “Lydia, oh, Lydia..
    say , have you met Lydia?
    Lydia the tattooed Lady?”

    but i digress…

    Excelsior!

  • http://gratefuldread.net Natalie Davis

    Hooray, hooray, hooray…

  • G. Oren

    Dobson was once a very valuable resource in the struggle against compulsory miseducation of our children. He was also a strong voice against the behavioristic approaches to child rearing popular in the 60’s and 70’s e.g. Dr. Spock. He has more recently jumped on the “low self esteem bandwagon” and plumps along for positive reinforcement etc…

    It is difficult to remember how isolated traditional voices were in the 70’s. The media was dominated by a secular humanist viewpoint that did not admit opposing views (other than caricatured straw men of the Archie Bunker ilk). Dobson’s early books and radio show provided both helpful discussion and suggestions for those intent on resisting the zeitgeist of this post modern post christian age.

    Somewhere along the way he began to take himself and his ministry too seriously, as arbiters of the political as well as the psychological and spiritual growth of the church universal. Now, he spends more time vilifying political viewpoints than in presenting constructive information for those struggling with real world problems like addiction, grief, etc… He has become a celebrity of the religous right and has become increasingly more strident and extreme.

    A note regarding Dobson’s writing. Like many current day preachers, Dobson attempts to gain the audience attention through stories that are designed both to gain instant familiarity and empathy from the reader. Sometimes his metaphors are less apt than one might wish – thus the less than believable story of Siggie the stubborn dog. Still, his goals were laudable.

    We’ve raised enough irresponsible, narcissistic brats the past forty years to see where the fruit is. In international tests of scholastic ability, our high school age kids rank highest in self-esteem and lowest in math. If memory serves, the Korean and Japanese rank lowest in self-esteem and highest in math. Objective measures of worldly success are not the only barometers of a healthy society, but it is easy to see that something is terribly wrong when our kids can’t reason but feel real good about themselves while not reasoning.

  • http://ideaplace.blogspot.com Randy Kirk

    G,

    Excellent comment. There are many in the ranks of Focus who would like less politics. But you can watch his life and see that he writes about the stage he is at in life.

    Like him (I’m a few years younger) I find myself thinking more about my legacy and my kids and grandkids futures. If your passionate, you can see a lot of things that need correcting, and you are passed the time when you’re doing that for your kids.

    Also, I know Dobson takes flack for some of his psych approaches, but I don’t think he is actually a self-esteem proponant as some think. I think he would say that folks should understand that each of us has value.

    For the ones who think he’s such an ogre, he spends at least on program every six weeks or so, denouncing bullies. You know, the type who might pick on boys who aren’t as masculine as they are.

  • gonzo marx

    the psychological an dpathological need to beat a 12 pound dog with a belt says it all

    my own mutt is abuot 125 lbs..half staffordshire terrier ( pit-bull, remember Petey from the lil Rascalls?) and half northern cali timber wolf

    never had to beat him for any reason..and he can be quite willful

    what fun to put him in that bathroom with Dobson..then i could tell Q that D yelled at his “mommy”

    hell, i’d even let D’s 12 lb puppy watch…

    and that’s poetic Justice…gonzo style

    nuff said?

    Excelsior!

  • http://ideaplace.blogspot.com Randy Kirk

    Gonzo, I think you know I respect most of what you put up. You are wrong about this man. Disagree with his pov. His heart is huge.

  • gonzo marx

    Mr K…i appreciate the thought

    but i could care less…

    “know your enemy”

    i know mine…

    Excelsior!

  • nugget

    good post, G. Oren.

  • snaffoo

    Talk about spewing hate. Do you idiots listen to yourselves?

    Such hypocrisy. What a waste of time.

    Never in the history of blogdome has a reader had the misfortune to peruse a more biased, hypocritical thread…

    that was written by morons so full of themselves, delighting in the merciless and intentional taking out of context of the words of a good man…

    in order to spew their own particular brand of illiterate left-wingnut PUKE.

    What a stupid post. What a stupid thread. What the…$*@*#&

  • gonzo marx

    and snaffoo gives us a shining example of Christ’s compassion, understanding, and tolerance for others…just like Dobson…

    /end snarky sarcastic bit

    Excelsior!

  • simeon

    So where did snaffoo claim that he is a christian?

    I believe what he was trying to say is it is always the same, few liberal minded typos around here that pounce on any opportunity to debase the Church and assassinate the characters of good people who are well intentioned, but nonetheless suffer from human frailty like the rest of us.

    No sarcasm intended and keep looking up.

  • http://gratefuldread.net Natalie Davis

    “For the ones who think he’s such an ogre, he spends at least on program every six weeks or so, denouncing bullies. You know, the type who might pick on boys who aren’t as masculine as they are.”

    Right, Mr. Kirk. And those are the boys whom Dobson, a huge and vocal supporter of so-called reparative therapy and such, wants placed in ex-gay ministries, where they are encouraged to play football to make them more “manly.” Big heart? Not in my book.

  • Nancy

    Christians don’t need anybody’s help to debase ‘the church'; the rest of us just give them as much rope as they need to hang themselves.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    and assassinate the characters of good people

    my thought is that once you begin promoting hatred and intolerance, enough so that organizations like the Southern Poverty Law Center, a non-profit, non-partisan organization, which tracks hate groups, adds you to their list…character has already been assassinated, and by none other than self.

  • goldie singleton

    A lot you you folks seem to be intolerant of apposing views. You might not agree with Mr. Dobson but you don’t have to vilify him either. I think the christian people are more tolerant of others than the hard left. We have lived in harmony for years in thhis country and now the liberals don’t want to here anybody elses ideas except there own and when they don’t agree with someone’s ideas….the name calling starts. I’m a christian person who lives by certain guidlines from the bible. That doesn’t make me extreme anymore than a person who doesn’t follow any guidlines at all. It just seems like a serious double standard. I don’t understand the left anymore than the left understands me but we are ALL americans. We have the right to disagree without forcing anything on anyone. You are only a victum if you allow yourself to be. I fought for this country so we could have debates on issues. The presidency changes all the time, whoever wins get to move his agenda. When Mr. Clinton was president, I didn’t like everything he said or did while president. I voted for Mr. Bush both times but I don’t agree with everything he does either. I try to think for myself and not allow the polls or the media change my own thinking. Just remember, we are americans first and its okay to disagree without getting nasty or name calling.

  • billy

    “Just remember, we are americans first and its okay to disagree without getting nasty or name calling.”

    tell that to james dobson when he called 1 million american gays an abomination.

    tell it to karl rove when he called 36% of Americans terrorist sympathizers who want to give therapy to osama.

    until the right looks in the mirror at their evil nature, they have alot of heat and attacks coming.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Sorry, Goldie. I’ve been doing the tolerance schtick for far too long and it has gotten me nowhere. I’ve tried to show understanding and tolerance especially toward the fundamentalist Christibans who would just as soon see me dead than have to deal with me. I’ve closed the Bible and talked to God directly. I highly recommend trying to do the same.

    Insofar as electing a President is concerned, anyone who honestly believes that the man who occupies the White Houyse serves at the will of the people is living in complete and utter denial. Until the day comes when candidates are elected on a level playing field under a strict set of campaign finance guidelines there is no real representation at any level of political office. I, too, love America and believe in what she stands for. That’s why I’ve chosen to remain an American and fight to make things right once and for all.

  • http://gratefuldread.net Natalie Davis

    I am a human being first. Nationality is just where I am located at any given time. And I agree, Ms. Singleton, insults are not the way to go. However, it is not insulting Dobson to say that one despises the work he does.

    Ms. Nancy, gotta agree, except please consider that Christians come in all stripes.

  • http://ideaplace.blogspot.com Randy Kirk

    My UCLA Abnormal Pscyh text from 35 years ago said harsher things about homosexuals than Dobson does. You all need to get a grip and think about the context of your comments. Be passionate for what you believe in. Be careful who you tear down. You might need them in the next debate.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    No doubt, Randy. The problem is that medical professionals have ‘downgraded’ the abnormality known as homosexuality while the religious zealots have turned up the heat and vilified us. Sorry, I won’t tolerate it any longer. I’ve got equal rights protected by the Constitution and anyone who actively attempts to take away my Constitutional rights from the point of religious view only will be debated, fought and ultimately defeated. Hating James Dobson and those who adhere to his heresy against humanity does not make me the devil’s handmaiden.

    I’m through submitting to the notion that anyone who questions the tenets of Christianity or Islam are inherently evil. To me there is no difference between Fundamentalist Christians and Muslims. The only thing that seems to shift is who has the handle on violence at a given time. Muslim terrorists of today are scant different from the Christian Crusaders of yesteryear. In these modern times economic and technolgical warfare have become weapons in their own right. Those who have been economically disadvantaged have been used as pawns by submitting to the misguided belief that their God will deliver them from the binds of their captivity.

    It’s finally dawned on me that the greatest enemy to fundamentalists of all persuasions is education. The more educated people become, the more they question that which has been shoved down their throats.

  • gonzo marx

    as for Mr K’s 35 year old text book, let’s get this in context a second…

    150 years ago, what did that text say about black people?

    remember, back then, some devout “christians” used the Bible to justify slavery as well…

    what some folks are trying to make clear is that as civilization grows and advances, what was once common wisdom is shown to be common fallacy…

    what blacks and women went through to gain acceptance of their civil Rights is strikingly similar to what some folks are going through today…

    and just as then, there are those now who will stand up for those Rights…

    care to join in?

    Excelsior!

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Gonzo, I bow at your feet! You hit the nail right on the head as it drove through the palm onto the branch.

  • http://gratefuldread.net Natalie Davis

    Spot on, Messrs. Kain and Marx. Finally, the fundies need to get it. They will do what they will in their churches — outside, the law is supposed to be secular and is supposed to mandate equality for all, even queers, not enforce the antiquated edicts of one particularly virulent, discrimination-affirming strain of religious thought. Mr. Kirk, blind devotee of all things Dobson and Focus, needs to get a grip.

  • simeon

    Actually Goldie has made the most sensible and humane contribution to this thread. As for the rest of the church bashers they should read their bible more often.

    It is not Dobson that calls homosexuality an abomination. It is the Lord Himself. And Dobson makes it clear he does not hate homosexuals – it is only the act of homosexuality that is offensive. So he (or she) who is without sin, cast the first stone.

    And yes, there is a little thing called keeping your sources within its context. Go back to school and take your childish mudslinging to the backyard where it belongs.

    “remember, back then, some devout “christians” used the Bible to justify slavery as well…”

    Well duh Bonzo. There are idiots in all religions who profess to be spiritual. You can’t paint an entire species, race, or religion with one brush. That’s called prejudice and discrimination. Talk about a double standard. The only thing that I will bow down to is to your ignorance and self-righteousness.

    The only thing that is “Spot on” here is your backsides. That is why they call it a democracy. Majority rules (except of course for a few special interest liberal whackos).

    “To me there is no difference between Fundamentalist Christians and Muslims. The only thing that seems to shift is who has the handle on violence at a given time.”

    The fact is you people are the fanatic extremists. Your class for today is to first take the log jam out of your own eyes, learn to use your brains instead of speaking with childish anger and come back and say two hail marys.

  • billy

    “It is not Dobson that calls homosexuality an abomination. It is the Lord Himself.”

    So if i have a book that says it is ok to lynch negros, i can justify it by referring to a book? great contribution thanks.

    I have a book that says Zeus created the universe and he hates jews.

    i can go start a concentration camp with a clean mind. and so can dobson apparently.

  • MCH

    I think we’ve just been blessed with a visit from one of “God’s Little Helpers.”

  • billy

    i am so sick of people justifying disgusting behavior by saying “my mysterious and invisible friend” said it is ok, so it must be ok. see that 6000 year old book? it says my mysterious invisible friend hates gays, and that is why i hate gays.

    what a weak excuse to be a bigot.just come out and admit you are a bigot, dont pass it off to your invisible friend.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    It is not Dobson that calls homosexuality an abomination. It is the Lord Himself.

    There are different religious groups who interpret the Bible differently than you do. You and Dobson both presume to speak for the Lord and to have society follow your lead.

    That is why they call it a democracy….. Majority rules

    and this is why I think there needs to be accountability for those who choose homeskoolin.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Here we go round the Mulberry Bible. You can consider me an abomination all you want. You can tell yourself and the world that the Lord says I am an abomination. It does not change that fact that I know differently. In the eyes of God we are equal at birth. I followed my heart and have arrived at my place of peace.

    I don’t condone a man fornicating with another woman because his wife is barren. I don’t condone slavery. I don’t condone stoning a woman to death because she is a whore. And I certainly don’t condone the incarceration of a woman for five days because she had her period.

    I submit once again that there is NO difference between the fanatical Christians and Muslims. Each group has its own methodology of indoctrination and intimidation. As long as the fanatics are allowed to suppress the intellect of humanity, the hate will continue. God forsakes none of His children. In the grand scheme of things it has been the fanatics who have forsaken God.

    Take thee the log from thine own eye and humble thyself before thy God. Seek that ye may receive His forgiveness for the hatred thou hast spewn upon the world.

  • simeon

    Re: The good Book.

    Sure, go ahead and shoot the messenger. But a word of advice. Be careful what you debase in your ignorance. You might come out at the wrong end of the schtick.

    I’m weary having to explain scripture to fools who obviously have never seriously studied the Bible.

    It is not a matter of interpretation but in plain black and white. Next time you’re in a hotel open that Gideons instead of turning on the porn channel.

    What is expedient for the moment might not necessarily be for eternity.

    Peace.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    I’m weary having to explain scripture

    the burden you bear must be a heavy one, oh exalted, righteous, pinnacle of virtuosity.

  • http://gratefuldread.net Natalie Davis

    “Be careful what you debase in your ignorance. You might come out at the wrong end of the schtick.”

    Take your own advice, Mr. Simeon. You are in my prayers.

  • simeon

    Not at all Steve. That’s two stones thrown by you. Sorry you still don’t get it.

    Silas, it is not being hateful standing up for the word of God. I didn’t write it.

    Your anger is unfortunately misdirected. That’s why they killed the apostles. If you want sugar coated theology go to the candy store. If you want the truth knock and the door will be opened.

    Peace.

  • simeon

    Thanks Natalie. I will pray for you as well.

    I know where I’m going. How about you?

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    It is not a matter of interpretation but in plain black and white. Next time you’re in a hotel open that Gideons instead of turning on the porn channel.

    I read the Bible more often than you suppose but that is of my concern. Things are not a matter of black and white, my human friend. God is light. Light is white. White is an amalgam of every color in the spectrum. Black is the absence of white, therefore it is the absence of Light. Fundamentalists do well to rob people of the light by submitting them to the darkness of religious suppression. God expects no one to be submissive but to share in the bounty and glory that is His and all of ours equally.

    Because I refuse to allow myself to believe in a Divine Master who expects blind submission, I am considered a heathen. Because I accept my sexuality not as a burden but a natural gift I am viewed as an abomination. Because you call me queer, I am an enemy of “family values”.

    Oh, and by the way, last time I was in a hotel I noticed that more hotels these days are including the Qu’ran in the room along with the Gideon Bible. THAT must make you fundamentalists go bonkers. Allah be praised!!!!!

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    simeon, regarding comment 55:

    Be careful what you debase in your ignorance.

    that’s stone 1 by you.

    I’m weary having to explain scripture to fools

    that’s stone 2 by you.

    Next time you’re in a hotel open that Gideons instead of turning on the porn channel.

    assumption of character is stone 3 by you.

    And all in one post.

    And I’m not even the one moralizing about being virtuous enough to be above stone throwing. Stand still, I got lots more where mine comes from.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Oh, simeon, we will never be able to meet in the middle. Believe what you will, I wish you no harm. Just afford me the common respect and human courtesy of allowing me to live my life in the freedom that is guaranteed by the Constitution. Render unto God what you will but respect my right to render to whomever I choose. The apostles weren’t killed as part of some Divine plan. They were killed for political reasons. Just as Christianity flourished under Constantine for political reasons. We’ve all been the unwitting victims of ancient politics.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    where is the angry Silas of yesterday’s post? You are extending your hand, watch what happens to it.

    There is no middle ground, no compromise with those who believe in the literal interpretation of homosexuality being an abomination.

    What are we expecting folks? That people will say ‘okay, it’s an abomination but you can go ahead and get married and we won’t look down on you in public education, in the shopping malls, anywhere?’

    If they believe it’s an abomination, they will believe YOU are an abomination, whether you are proud about it and going on with your life, or whether you are groveling at their feet for forgiveneness.

    I like cooking, but I don’t make humble pie anymore.

  • http://gratefuldread.net Natalie Davis

    I believe I am going to the same place you think you’re going, Mr. Simeon, although I am not arrogant enough to state categroically that I know.

    Seriously, take your own advice. What if your interpretation — and that is all it is — is wrong? Many, many noted theologians, some of them Christian, vehemently disagree with you…

    Allah be praised.

    Bahá’u’lláh.

    Hail Jah Rastafari.

    Blessed be.

    Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare.

    Our creator who lives in heaven, hallowed is your name.

    Happy holidays.

    NR Davis

  • http://gratefuldread.net Natalie Davis

    Yes, Steve. I am all for working toward peaceful coexistence, but humble pie is NOT on the menu for me. I am not the one out working to keep people from being equal under civil law.

  • simeon

    I see what the game is Steve. Who is the pretender for the moral high ground?

    We should get something straight right now. Anybody that has ever gone to church knows that Christians are NOT the moral high ground. God is.

    Theology 101: Christians are merely sinners saved by grace. It’s YOUR relationship with Him that is important. Not with Dobson, or me or anybody else.

    You and your buds started this game by debasing the Church and assassinating Dobson’s character in a pathetic attempt to claim the moral high ground. The pharisees played that same game with Jesus.

    When somebody has the balls to tell it like it is you then resort to these games. It’s the same old story time and again. I merely pointed out the error of your ways to get you off your high horse cowboy.

    So here we go again. The old “literal interpretation” argument. When all else fails, pull it out from the hat. Anybody who has seriously studied the word knows that yes, when it comes to prophecy, and Jesus speaking in parables, there is a lot of imagery and open to interpretation.

    But as for the rest of the writings (such as Paul the apostle who makes up most of the new testament) they are spoken directly in yur face. And the references to homosexuality are not written in prophetic or metaphoric terms. I’m sorry to be bearer of bad news, but that ancient argument of “literal interpretation” just doesn’t cut it.

    And Silas, dear brother. Cool name. Did you know you are also in the Bible? Check it out (Acts 15 through 18). Unfortunately the Bible also says that man’s wisdom and law is foolishness in the eyes of God. Your theology needs to be upgraded from just watching the PBS channel. Unfortunately there is no compromising of scripture. I cannot rewrite it no more than you can. Unless of course you are claiming to be omnipotent.

    And as for my sista Natalie. Duh! He who has ears let him hear. Mock me oh brothers and sisters. Oh brother is right.

    Sorry to be blunt and the bearer of bad news kids but please play your childish games elsewhere. I’m not interested. Focus on getting your act together with God and forget about the Dobsons, the Pope or whomever (and yes even me).

    Peace.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Steve, the angry Silas is very much alive and well. I refuse to submit to the religious fanatics who choose to treat me as God’s aberration. All I want is to be afforded the opportunity to live my life as I choose without worry that my government is going to become a tool for hate mongering Christians and other religious fanatics who are fearful of losing their grip on the mindless followers they command. There is a war for the heart of America. The enemy does not live outside our borders in some cave in Pakistan. Our collective enemy is ignorance.

    I will settle for nothing less than the full accordance of civil rights that are due to me and my fellow human beings. That is my agenda. I want a level playing field in our political structure and I want a book of civil laws that are free from the binds of religious bigotry. I can live with peaceful coexistence; however, I refuse to live under conditions as they are today.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    You and your buds started this game by debasing the Church and assassinating Dobson’s character in a pathetic attempt to claim the moral high ground.

    No, Dobson started this by spouting off hate speech against US. Enough hate speech so that other conservative evangelicals like former surgeon general Koop said he was homophobic and harmful. Enough hate speech so that the Southern Poverty Law Center added him to their list of hate groups and now monitor him.

    No, WE didn’t start this simeon, WE are responding.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Focus on getting your act together with God

    is that one of your commandments?

  • http://gratefuldread.net Natalie Davis

    Mr. Simeon, “sista”??? What the heck is that???

    No one here is playing any games. And where did I mock anyone?

    Again, major theologians disagree with you — even on the passages that you say refer to homosexuality. I can not bow down to your will and accept what you say as being “like it is,” however much you bully and insult people. Your credibility is nil, and made more so by comment #66.

  • simeon

    I don’t mind debating if it is kept on an intelligent level.

    But you are merely resorting to childishness and lashing out in anger.

    Get the hence Steve. (Just a suggestion, not a commandment).

    Peace.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    I can live with peaceful coexistence;

    Silas so can I, but do you think it is achieveable? Pick a fundy here, any fundy. Randy, simeon, ANY fundy, but it must be a hard-liner.

    Now…you know that when our children are in school, we would like them to not be subjected to any sort of education that would imply we or our families are inferior or harmful to society or bad in any way. Right?

    Now…ask the fundy what they are going to do with their children when/if, homosexuality were not denounced in the public school system, but were treated as equal to heterosexuality. From Heather has Two Mommies being a possible book selection to discussions of diverse families without religious disclaimers attached.

    Create this ‘peaceful co-existance’ in a hypothetical scenario and then present it to them. See what they say.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    I don’t mind debating if it is kept on an intelligent level.

    frankly I don’t care what you mind or don’t mind. You have already shown yourself to be void of intellect with your assumption that American democracy is nothing more than majority rule.

    And your holier than thou smug attitude, accompanied by the most stone throwing on the board, certainly hasn’t redeemed you in my eyes.

    Frankly I don’t care to debate you. Nothing is to be gained by it. I will debate others and will just continute to return all stones that you send my way.

  • simeon

    Dearest Natalie, your so-called major theologians only get air play on the PBS channel. Serious scholars wouldn’t lower themselves.

    Anybody see the De Vinci Code?

    Regarding #66. How so pray tell ???

    * Are you offended by the word “sista”? I don’t understand why, but if so then I do apologize.

  • http://gratefuldread.net Natalie Davis

    Nice try. You have no clue where these theologians get airplay. Perhaps you should try something other than Fox or CBN. (Hey, if you can leap to conclusions…)

    As for “sista,” tell me exactly what you meant by it. Then I will consider whether your apology is acceptable to me.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Ah, Simeon, yes, I am quite familiar with the New Testament’s Silas and was named for him. Now to address that which you have discussed:

    Anybody that has ever gone to church knows that Christians are NOT the moral high ground. God is.

    I don’t need to be reminded of that. We may need to remind many preachers, however. The only man of the cloth that I see coming close to the real and Living Christ is Billy Graham and unfortunately he is not long for this world.

    Theology 101: Christians are merely sinners saved by grace. It’s YOUR relationship with Him that is important.

    On that point we consistently agree. I have maintained since day one that the individual’s relationship with God is what’s important. The religious institutions aren’t capable of delivering souls. That’s an individual’s choice.

    …in a pathetic attempt to claim the moral high ground. The pharisees played that same game with Jesus.

    Truth be told Jesus has been used as a pawn for 2,000 years in the moral high ground game. Here was a man who gave humanity the greatest of gifts only to have humanity twist that gift for their owns means to an end. That is what I see as most pathetic.

    …when it comes to prophecy, and Jesus speaking in parables, there is a lot of imagery and open to interpretation… But as for the rest of the writings (such as Paul the apostle who makes up most of the new testament) they are spoken directly in yur face. And the references to homosexuality are not written in prophetic or metaphoric terms…

    Paul the Apostle is not a very good example. He was a conniving, self-loathing despot who saw an opportunity and seized upon it. He created the religious version of Amway. Most Christians proclaim themselves as followers of Christ when, in fact, they are nothing more than Paulines. That, my friend, is the undisputed truth.

    …Your theology needs to be upgraded from just watching the PBS channel. Unfortunately there is no compromising of scripture…

    Tell that to those who taught theology when I was in seminary. There is compromising of scripture, my friend. If compromise didn’t exist then slavery, the torture of women and cruel and unusal punishment would be a part of our world today. There are many lessons ever present in the Bible just as it is an excellent source for history previous to the arrival of Christ. All of that being said it remains a book filled with symbolism and those who adhere to the Bible in its literal sense are no different from the pagans who worshipped the golden calf while Moses retrieved the Ten Commandments. Has anyone ever considered that this blind worship of the Bible is idolatry in its purest form?

    …Focus on getting your act together with God…

    My act is together. My personal relationship with God sustains me in ways you can never understand. Don’t look to the Bible and religious leaders to guide you in your quest to know God. That Who you seek lives within you and waits for you to knock on that proverbial door.

    Dear God, I am starting to sound like a prophet. Quick somebody, get me a copy of the Exorcist.

  • http://adamantsun.blogspot.com Steve S

    Serious scholars wouldn’t lower themselves.

    one can just feel the Superior Moralizing™ just coat the room, can’t one?

    translation:

    True Christians wouldn’t lessen themselves with PBS. *turning nose up in disgust* Jesus would have had nothing to do with you hedonistic liberals. You probably coddle terrorists too!

  • simeon

    Natalie, I don’t need to give reasons for using a certain word that you don’t like just so you can attempt to twist this around any further than you already have.

    If you don’t like it then I have already apologized and that is sufficient.

    The point is you have already made my point. You don’t gain credibility for yourself by pointing the finger at God’s servants. It is that simple.

    And yes, I do have a “clue” dear girl. Your twisted theology doesn’t hold up.

    Peace and get a grip.

  • simeon

    Actually Steve, Jesus hung out with the sinners.

    Come to think of it I guess I’m in the right place.

    And that goes for yours truly as well.

    Peace.

  • http://gratefuldread.net Natalie Davis

    Servant of God? Talk about making a mockery of the creator….

    No, Mr. Simeon. I wanted to know what you meant so as not to make any assumptions. But your response tells me plenty, dear boy, including that it simply is not worth my time to talk further with you.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Simeon, Pilate called. Your cross is ready.

  • gonzo marx

    oh boy howdy..i leave fer a bit, and we get to Party!!

    simeon sez..
    *It is not Dobson that calls homosexuality an abomination. It is the Lord Himself.*

    are you talking the passage of Leviticus here?..or the bits from Saul of Tarsus?

    neither are from “the Lord”..both are from men..you might want to consider the difference

    as for biblical study..there are many around here who have done more than you might imagine…for instance, are you happy with the texts chosen by Iraneus and codified at Nicea?

    are you aware of the ones left out?

    how do you feel about the acknowledged mistranslations?

    how to you rectify the differences between the Hebrew 10 Commandments, which were “given” directly to MOses, and the very different 10 used by the Catholic church, or the also different ones used by Protestants?

    which of those 3 are the infallible “word of God?”

    we will just touch on the 4 Gospels of the new testament for a second…how do you explain the difference between them as to Jesus’ last words?

    or to the sign above his head on the cross?…

    howabout the Nativity…was it shepards only, as is stated in one Gospel, or the three Wise men as is stated in another?

    i put to you that the “bible” you refer to was written by Men, with all their foibles and problems…there IS quite a lot of “Good” to be learned there…and quite a bit of divel that the hand of Man placed there…

    just wanted to touch on that…

    simeon sez…
    *Well duh Bonzo. There are idiots in all religions who profess to be spiritual. You can’t paint an entire species, race, or religion with one brush. That’s called prejudice and discrimination. Talk about a double standard. The only thing that I will bow down to is to your ignorance and self-righteousness.*

    insulting the name i use, calling me ignorant, and self righteous…

    prime example of good christian charity…

    now, we have some christians in this very Thread…i don’t think anyone who has read me woudl mistake my silly typings to be against all christians…

    quite the contrary, i have many times praised the teachings of Yeshua ben Miriam and placed him up with Buddha and others for imparting Wisdom and helping to show great examples of how to lead a good Life

    like Franklin..i have grave doubts as to “Divinity”…just my opinion

    my problem with Dobson, and others that i refer to as fanatical and extremeist, is the base hypocrisy as well as a difference of stance when it comes to denigrating certain segments of the human population

    you see, that bothers me..i tend to stand with Equal Rights for all…silly of me, i know…

    you are spot on in referring to me as a “chruch basher”…i do have many difficulties with organized religions, stemming from people like Dobson..or those that live hypocritically in the light of what they preach…

    like some “preachers” that wear pinky rings worth more than what many of their congregation earns in a year, asking for more money

    give me a Benedictine walkign through the snow in a wool robe and sandals that eh doesn’t even own , on his way to his daily work…him i may listen to

    so when some smug, self righteous and arrogant type comes along and starts in on any kind of extremeist line that denigrates the Rights of others…well…i tend to light off

    do note, gentle Readers, that your humble Narrator did not start with attackes upon this simeon person…

    but if that’s the way it’s going to go…well, i’m wearing my asboestos long johns

    nuff said?

    Excelsior!

  • simeon

    Ah dear Silas. So good to hear from you again. I too was in seminary school.

    Unfortunately dear brother your twisted theology speaks volumes. Take two aspirins and I’ll call the exorcist in the morning.

    But seriously, normally I’m not this aggressive and I recognize that I’m pulling not punches here.

    And I do apologize for stepping on your toes, but there must be a reason for that.

    Speaking of the cross, stop looking at the servants and look up bro.

    Dearest Natalie, that works for me too. I am not interested in playing yur little head games in the slightest.

    Peace.

  • gonzo marx

    more condescending bullshit from the holier than thou type…

    good example of christian modesty and temerance you set

    keep at it, every time you go off like that, it helps to clarify just how much you enjoy your hate speech by juxtaposing your typing with the principles and morals you pretend to espouse

    forever apostate and heretic

    Excelsior!

  • simeon

    Dearest Gonzo:

    Who claimed to be “holier than thou”? Not I that’s for sure.

    I’ve presented the truth in your face like it is.

    So you tell me who is being judgmental?

    Go ahead and shoot the messenger. Down with Dobson. Kill all the Christians.

    Excelsior!

  • gonzo marx

    simeone sez..
    *Who claimed to be “holier than thou”? Not I that’s for sure*

    but earlier said…
    *Actually Steve, Jesus hung out with the sinners.

    Come to think of it I guess I’m in the right place.*

    comparing yourself to Jessus?…how modest..

    and also..
    *I’m weary having to explain scripture to fools who obviously have never seriously studied the Bible.*

    but notice, you have not addressed ANY of the biblical points i made in comment #82…

    yet you are referring to yourself as the “messenger” and that you have “presented the truth in your face like it is.”

    whereas i have only given my one sixth billionths of the world’s Opinion…

    not only do i take full Responsibility for everything i have done…but i stand by what i have written in this thread..

    so, enjoy whatever it is you are doing..i will gladly leave it to the gentle Readers to decide for now

    nuff said?

    Excelsior!

  • G. Oren

    Let’s discuss that little bit about biblioidolatry from Silas. Me thinks much of the church today has forgotten that it was the church that determined what writings were considered canonical.

    Too many today are swallowing whatever religious bromide is offered them in an attempt to find a rudder for steering across lifes ocean. This leaves them open to intellectual poison from fundamentalist and new-agers alike.

    My point about biblioidoltry is that, regardless of ones view of scripture, it is the interpretation that is used to justify a position.

    In this post-modern, post-christian age we are moved away from humility and true community by radically detached individualism on one hand and stultifying dogma on the other.

  • Duane

    Ah, my dear Simeon. Are you trying to do an impression of a wizened old sage from a cheap Hollywood movie? Give it a rest, ya goofball.

    … the Bible also says that man’s wisdom and law is foolishness …

    [Insert Simeon joke here.]

    I’m weary having to explain scripture to fools who obviously have never seriously studied the Bible.

    What a twit! You must be kidding with this bullshit. Such superficial pretense. The poor put-upon genius. Which movie character are you basing this on?

    “The Master said, ‘You are not able even to serve Man. How can you serve the spirits?’ ” — Confucius

    Carry on, grasshopper. You amuse me.

  • gonzo marx

    Duane, will you have my cyber-love children?

    we can use some stem cells….

    /swoons

    Excelsior!

  • Duane

    Ah, my dear Gonzo, such an inestimable pleasure to make your acquaintance once more.

    Oh shit, now he’s got me doing it.

    Duane, will you have my cyber-love children?

    It is but our fate, a match made, shall we say, in Heaven? Hehe.

  • gonzo marx

    JuJu, may his tusks bask in the Light of Reason, is pleased…

    heh

    Excelsior!

  • simeon

    Ok one at a time boys and you will all get your turn.

    #86: So now I’m the “messenger” mohammed am I. Heh, you break me up Gonz. Thanks for entertaining me.

    You’re such a funny guy, but I thought you were a much smarter than I gave you credit.

    Gonz sez that simeon said “Actually Steve, Jesus hung out with the sinners. Come to think of it I guess I’m in the right place”

    True enough, but immediately after that I also said “And that goes for yours truly as well.” (comment #79)

    So thanks for proving my point Gonz. It’s called “CONTEXT”. Look it up bro.

    OUCH!

    That’s gotta hurt and I rest my case.

    As for the rest of your twisted theology provide some ‘reputable’ sources or begone oh Gonz.

    What’s that they say about garbage in, garbage out? I only deal with sources that have stood the test of time. Not the latest crap you read at the local cult shop or on the Discovery channel.

    Nuff said?

    Excelsior!

  • gonzo marx

    now now, simeon…

    comment #82..scrollon up and read again

    can you give us your Literalist answers to the biblical contradictions i inquired about?

    or are you going to continue to cherry pick and show just how much you are overflowing with the milk of human kindness and christian tolerance?

    the Questions i raised all come from the very Bible you are using as your Source

    some of the rest come from known historical fact, accepted at every level of theology ..including the Vatican( meaning the datings and significance of Iraneus and Nicea/Constantine)

    the inconsistencies in the Gospels of Christ’s last words, the sign the Romans put on the cross and many more are well known to theological scholars

    i just wanted your take on them…since you give these lovely bible lessons to those of us that don’t know any better

    as for comment 79..i guess i mistook your intent..written as it is, it was uncertain whether you were equating yourself as just anothe rsinner..or with Christ hanging out with the sinners

    mea culpa on that one, i guess..but i doubt i’m the only one to take it that way

    so, howabout instead of trying to demean and insult me..you deal with the Issues i’ve raised?

    or is that asking too much of you?

    Excelsior!

  • simeon

    “as for comment 79..”

    Oh come now Gonz, you’re a smart boy. You misquoted me intentionally. Or at the very least a freudian slip. Yes?

    DO the right thing and fess up and maybe you will find me more accommodating.

  • gonzo marx

    simeon..

    i said
    *as for comment 79..i guess i mistook your intent..written as it is, it was uncertain whether you were equating yourself as just anothe rsinner..or with Christ hanging out with the sinners

    mea culpa on that one, i guess..but i doubt i’m the only one to take it that way*

    that’s me, admitting i may have misunderstood what you wrote…that’s the best you can get…note the mea culpa

    go look it up

    as for “accomodating” me…do as ya like

    my point has been made, was just a bit curious as to your take on the Issues i have mentioned…

    i’ll stake my rep around here for quoting directly in my discussions anytime…for what it’s worth

    but you go on and believe as you like, it’s your right…

    up to this point, i’ve remained pretty polite…

    next move is totally up to you…

    fair enough?

    Excelsior!

  • http://ideaplace.blogspot.com Randy Kirk

    Gonzo,

    All of your issues are handled brilliantly in Evidence That Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell. To tackle even a couple of your excellent issues would take many columns of this length and longer and probably end up with no one convinced.

    My understanding goes this way:

    Christians are not supposed to judge sinners. We are to witness to them by living in the light, and we are to tell them the good news.

    We are supposed to judge other Christians, and if we see clear sin, bring it to their attention.

    We are to obey the laws under which we live and pray for our leaders. However, in a Democracy the Bible never says whether we are to be active in politics or not. Strange, Huh?

    So. To all of you who are having sex outside of marriage, regardless of your proclivity, go for it. I don’t believe I have condemned any one in any of my comments for doing so.

    However, I have the right to believe what I want concerning the consequences of sexual acts of any kind. I will not make fun of you, and if my kids do, I’ll correct them. But I will write and speak out if I think my tough love might help someone keep from hurting themselves or others. And I think almost every one commenting here like to think that they might help someone live better because of what they write.

    Ideas of what is right or good or fair or evil change with time. Sometimes the changes are a good thing and turn out to be wise. Other times those changes turn out to be disasterous for individuals and or society. Only time will tell.

    Dobson does what he does for a very high moral purpose. Time may show him to have been slow to see a new and better way. Or it may show him to have been on the money. But look to peoples hearts and check out their words in light of them. Don’t start with the words, because then you’ll put a filter on them and end up judging.

    Night.

  • http://gratefuldread.net Natalie Davis

    Sorry, I look for his heart and find nothing more than a big, black hole.

  • gonzo marx

    one thing to note..

    words and actions are all we have to form our opinions with

    that’s why i oppose folks like Dobson..i could care less which religious faction he comes from

    even John Gotti gave generously to his neighborhood…did that make him any less of a mobster, or inhuman monster for all the killing and selling of heroin etc that he did and/or was responsible for?

    just an example..not trying to equate the two men by any means…

    Excelsior!

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Interesting, Gonzo. Our neighbor state, Rhode Island, is the most corrupt city state in the modern era. On many an occasion I have stated that the only way to reverse the corruption in Little Rhody was to elect the head of one of New England’s most powerful crime families as Governor. I’d have more faith in a Gotti Administration than I would in 75% of the politicians we have to pick from today.

  • JR

    Why do people even get dogs if they don’t like how they behave?

  • Nancy

    Because it gives them something/someone besides their wife & kids they can beat up on with impunity.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Do we honestly believe that Dobson is a wife/child beater in addition to being an animal torturer? After close scrutiny of his public behavior over the last 20 years I’ve come to the conclusion that underneath those pulpit robes and three piece business suits is a man who loves wearing fishnets and thongs from Victoria’s Secret.

  • http://victorplenty.blogspot.com Victor Plenty

    Is this the oft-misunderstood gaydar at work, Silas? Or would it be more accurate in this case to call it dragdar?

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Nah, Victor. It’s my Freudian take on things. The louder a man squeals against homosexuality the more my gaydar pings off the charts. It’s all misdirected squealing in my book and usually indicative of a simpler problem — complete sexual inadequacy and ambiguity.

  • http://victorplenty.blogspot.com Victor Plenty

    My hat is off to you for choosing the verb “squeal” in this context, Silas. Marvelously appropriate!

  • http://adreamersholiday.blogspot.com Lee Richards

    The politicizing of faith and religion we see today in America is both dismaying and dangerous. Religion is too often used not to comfort and strengthen but to attack and destroy. Preachers who spend their time condemning or supporting political parties and fighting over campaign platforms are corrupting both religion and the principles of democratic government. Some would love to have THEIR religion be OUR government. Freedom of religion also means freedom FROM religion, if an individual so chooses.

    My personal and arbitrary ‘rules’ for identifying A)those we listen to and have dialogue with and, B)those we ignore or expose:
    If it seeks the power to control the thoughts and legal actions of others, don’t trust it.
    If it belittles and dismisses the opinions of others, it’s not worthy.
    If it seeks to justify the WORLDLY actions of ministers, priests, evangelists, etc., it’s probably mercenary.
    If its message is one not of compassion but of condemnation, it’s heartless.
    If literalism and dogma are more important than free people and human rights, it’s misguided.
    If it’s used to gain political, financial or psychological advantage over others, it’s unfaithful.
    If it quotes or cites a scriptural source as its authority but ignores context and the literary, historical and cultural knowledge available, it’s devious.
    If it’s used to bully, browbeat or ridicule, it’s hateful.
    If it insists that faith, beliefs and opinions are the same as facts and absolutes, it’s ignorant.
    If it claims exclusive knowledge of the mind and will of God, it deceives.
    If it ignores or condemns science and other advancing scholarship, it’s not believeable.
    If it refuses to ever change any basic ideas or admit any possibility of error, it’s too full of pride and vanity.
    If it demands conformity over intelligence and independence of thought, it’s fearful and controlling.
    If it insists that the unknowable complexities of creation and cosmic possibilites can be easily explained by simplistic creeds and catechisms, then it worships its own mindset.
    If it’s afraid to ask questions, seek new information, listen with an open mind, learn, change and grow, it’s not rational.

  • gonzo marx

    OMFG!!!

    Lee…that was…poetic

    thanx…

    /golfclap

    Excelsior!

  • Duane

    Excellent, Lee. I think I’ll have to save that one.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    Lee, you rule. This piece is probably one of the most powerful works I have ever seen on the Internet. My hat is off to you and I express deep gratitude for these wise and worderful words.

  • http://gratefuldread.net Natalie Davis

    Same here. AWEsome list!

  • http://www.diablog.us Dave Nalle

    Good list, but perhaps a bit redundant. I’d love to see it boiled down into a few comprehensive maxims.

    Dave

  • scusemewhileipuke

    Talk about calling the kettle black. What a bunch of far left-wing misfits if there ever was.

    I’ll bet y’all get together Sundays for public stonings at your favorite new age cult shop. Hilarious. This thread is the equivalent (and has all the entertainment value) of a Doogie Howser laugh track.

    Haven’t you twirps yet noticed that out of all the thousands of hits BC gets, it is this little group of whiners that does most of the talking?

    Your little special interest group probably represents less than 5% of the total population, and yet it’s always the same loud-mouthed fanatics that make the most noise at BC.

    But guess what folks? Nobody’s listening! Nobody cares. Get it?

    So long as the public keeps reading this crap it’s no wonder the dems will never back into the White House.

    So do us all favour. Keep on talking. Keep laughing at your own jokes. Keep slapping each other on the back and maybe (just maybe) you’ll begin to believe you’re own press. But nobody else will.

  • gonzo marx

    glad you dropped by, nice to see yet another satisfied reader…

    careful venting that spleen, you may get some on you…

    Excelsior!

  • http://adreamersholiday.blogspot.com Lee Richards

    Re #112:
    I couldn’t have asked for a better illustration to demonstrate my point!!
    Thanks for your help.
    Happy Trails To You…

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Looking back through the thread I see maybe 3 real left wingers and a bunch of quasi-libertarians and two extreme right religious whackos. Seems pretty balanced to me.

    Dave

  • Nancy

    ROTFLOL, Dave! Lee – gorgeous. Printed it up & took the liberty of re-printing in a ‘good’ font to post. Thanks.

  • http://biggesttent.blogspot.com/ Silas Kain

    This thread seems more fair and balanced than a certain cable news network that is a subsidiary of Pravda.

    “Your little special interest group probably represents less than 5% of the total population…”

    We ARE a special interest group! And most of us recognize that there’s a real danger in allowing the ‘larger’ special interest groups to continue their stranglehold on Congress and the Presidency.

    “So long as the public keeps reading this crap it’s no wonder the dems will never back into the White House…”

    And your point is? I don’t know if the Dems would do any better in the White House. Neither party has honestly served the public’s interest in over a generation. Any candidate that has attempted to set things right has been squished like a bug and maligned to the point of no return.

    “So do us all favour. Keep on talking. Keep laughing at your own jokes…

    Sweetie, the cat’s out of the bag. If you want to pretend to be a citizen of the USA, check the speling of one of the words in the above quote.

  • http://victorplenty.blogspot.com Victor Plenty

    Great catch, Silas. Wonder whether our troll is a Brit or a Canuck. Both have a goodly number of nutjobs who’d fit the bill, although neither in quite so large a proportion as the good ol’ U.S. of A.

  • http://adreamersholiday.blogspot.com Lee Richards

    Re#106:
    Thanks Nancy, and all others for your comments.

  • http://www.thinkdude.com JS Crismon

    Kudos Lee. You communicate your thoughts well, and I appreciate your perspective. Please allow me to point out what appears to be inconsistencies in your post.

    LR: “Preachers who spend their time condemning or supporting political parties and fighting over campaign platforms are corrupting both religion and the principles of democratic government…”

    JSC: I’m not quite sure why anybody in society should be exempt from supporting political parties. The history of America is chalk-full of men of the cloth influencing political platforms and public opinion including Martin Luthar King Jr.

    LR: “Some would love to have THEIR religion be OUR government.”

    JSC: Admit it, you would love to have your religion be our government.

    LR: “My personal and arbitrary ‘rules'”

    JSC: Your rules are anything but arbitrary, and to your credit. They’re your convictions. Don’t try to soften it up so you can gain points with your peers.

    LR: “If it seeks the power to control the thoughts and legal actions of others, don’t trust it.”

    JSC: Sounds good. But is your definition of “control the thoughts”: teaching, influencing, or persuading intellectual content with which I disagree?

    LR: “If it belittles and dismisses the opinions of others, it’s not worthy”

    JSC: You condemn yourself. This entire post seeks to belittle and dismiss the opinions of others.

    LR: “If its message is one not of compassion but of condemnation, it’s heartless”

    JSC: Yes, no. You leave no room for anyone to stand up and speak what he believes. The theme of your post is one of condemnation. Is it heartless?

    LR: “If literalism and dogma are more important than free people and human rights, it’s misguided.”

    JSC: Dogma: Something that cuts hard against my philosphy of life.

    LR: “If it’s used to gain political, financial or psychological advantage over others, it’s unfaithful”

    JSC: The nature of politics is to gain political advantage. No harm there. True on the rest. However, the usage of the word ‘unfaithful’ doesn’t make sense.

    LR: “If it ignores or condemns science and other advancing scholarship, it’s not believeable.”

    JSC: Perspective alert: All knowledge is subjective and growing. I can think of very few scientific fields where scientists happily agree with each other. Scientists often condemn themselves. I agree that quick dismissal of scientific study can be a grave mistake. But so can blind acceptance.

    LR: “If it refuses to ever change any basic ideas or admit any possibility of error, it’s too full of pride and vanity”

    JSC: Yes, humility and openness is critical. And I assume that you’ve admitted to yourself that you could be wrong.

    Thanks!

  • http://adreamersholiday.blogspot.com Lee Richards

    JSC, Thanks for your interesting critique. I’ll try to clarify some of my points.
    (JSC: “I’m not quite sure why anybody in society should be exempt from supporting political parties…”)
    LR: No one should be excluded! All are within their rights to organize PACs, participate in party activities, raise money, run for office (keeping separation required for tax-exempt status in mind)and vote their convictions. I think it gets dicey when church leaders intermingle the really imcompatible roles of religious advocates and political zealots. As to Martin Luther King, Jr.-He was willing to take the consequences for his actions in opposing what he saw as discrimination and injustice. The types I refer to want to win political power so they can IMPOSE consequences on those whose attitudes and opinions differ.
    (JSC: “You would love to have your religion be our government”)
    LR: Under no circumstances! I am totally opposed to anyone’s religion being in control of local, state or national government in the U.S. We have more than enough examples from history and the world today to show us how deadly this would be to our democracy and individual freedom. As I pointed out, our treasured freedom of religion also means freedom from religion. I do believe government needs a basis of justice, ethics and the rule of law. The Preamble to the Constitution nicely sums up without reference to anyone’s religion what our national goals should be.
    (JSC:”Is your definition of ‘control of thoughts’ teaching, influence or persuading…”)
    LR: Trying to control thoughts is using false statements, misleading propaganda, fear, smears, appeals to prejudice or ignorance, any malicious intent to deceive. Certainly not included is legitimate discussion, thoughtful persuasion, open exchange of ideas.
    (JSC: This entire post seeks to belittle and dismiss the opinions of others”)
    LR: It intended to challenge the opinions, advocacy and ACTIONS of others that I believe have as their goals demeaning as unimportant and degrading as not worth anything the ideas and rights of those who do not share their religious viewpoint. Fair opposition to that is not belittling.
    (JSC: “The theme of your post is one of condemnation…”)
    LR: The theme of the post is the importance of thinking for yourself in the face of the distorted rhetoric and fallacious reasoning of those who would use secular means to achieve a religious state. I personally think the post was compassionate to all except those it admittedly accuses.
    (JSC: “the usage of the word unfaithful doesn’t make sense”)
    LR: ‘Unfaithful’ refers to the lofty goals and principles of religion being co-mingled with the questionable goals and principles of politics.
    (JSC:”I assume you’ve admitted to yourself that you could be wrong”)
    LR: I am too often wrong, and I could be mistaken about the attitudes and motives of individuals I don’t know(although their own words and deeds testify against them). But unless I’m convinced otherwise, I will stand by my statements against coercion, manipulation, deception and blithe ignorance being used to whip us all to toe someone else’s line.

  • http://www.thinkdude.com JS Crismon

    Lee,
    great response, as I knew my post would elicit one. As I mentioned before, I really do appreciate your thoughful dialog. Here’s a few final thoughts:

    My use of the word religion is more generic, meaning, “one’s philosophy of life”. Your religion may contain elements of acceptance, tolerance, openness, human achievement and the scientific method as the standard of understanding. I don’t know for sure because I don’t know you. But I do know that everyone has a philosophy. And I would imagine that everyone wants their philosophy to be embedded, if not well represented, in their government.

    Many like to place the world’s sea of ideas into various categories, the most common being religious and secular. They believe that if an idea gets put into the religious bucket, then it has no place in the public forum. If placed in the secular, then it’s bona fide and available for discussion. I often see very little difference between the sacred and the secular. I see ideas. And each one of these ideas has proponents and opponents. Some are falsifiable, some not. Some self-evident, some not.

    Of course actions that involve “false statements, misleading propaganda, fear, smears, appeals to prejudice or ignorance, any malicious intent to deceive” is behavior that we all should abhor. But what saddens me is how easily people we disagree with get placed into those categories.

    I have listened to Dobson over the years and read some of his books. I agree with him on some things and disagree on others. And one thing that my limited judgement tells me is that he is genuine. You may disagree with him, but he’s genuine.

    The irony of all this is that the statments made about Dobson at the top of this post are anything but genuine. His statment is completely taken out of context. The post by Bulldog states “Recently, James Dobson came under fire for his comparison of embryonic stem cell doctors to Nazi experimentation ‘doctors’.”. Dobson made no such comparison. He was using the Nazis as an object lesson to illustrate problems with the “end justifies the means” mentality while he was discussing embryonic research. To state that he was comparing the doctors to the Nazis is simple distortion, manipulation, and slander.

    Yes Lee, I too dispise false statements, misleading propaganda, fear, smears, appeals to prejudice or ignorance, any malicious intent to deceive. Which is exactly what was taking place when this thread was formulated.

    Thanks friend!