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The London Airline Terrorist Plot: An Iranian Diversion From An Attack On Jerusalem Planned August 22nd?

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Rajab 27, 1427 — the Night of the Sira’a and Miira’aj. Mean anything to you?

It didn’t to me until I happened to be channel surfing and caught part of Glen Beck’s program on CNN. After doing some research, I discovered that the above-mentioned date on the Muslim calendar is August 21, 2006 — the anniversary of when the Angel Gabriel dispatched Mohamed on his ascension into heaven from Jerusalem. On that night the Prophet was said to have risen within a blindingly bright light illuminating the sky, visited the House of Happiness and the House of Misery, and then reappeared in Mecca.

Is it just coincidence that President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran named August 22 specifically to answer calls to curb his nation’s nuclear program? A date suspiciously months after the international demand was made? The question has to be asked, is he planning to light up Jerusalem’s night sky with a nuclear blast, as several people have theorized, or is this just a bluff to get the world's worried attention back and increase his prestige currency with Islamic extremists?

Jerusalem and the Jewish world have been in turmoil since AD 691 when Caliph ‘adb al-Malik had a shrine built by the Christians over the former site of Solomon’s Temple. Its purpose is said to have been an attempt to distract Muslim worshipers away from Mecca. It’s also said to have been an endeavor to assert Muslim dominance over the Christians and also to attempt domination over Judaism on a site traditionally associated with Abraham.

Ahmadinejad’s voice has been loudly and blatantly calling for the destruction of Israel from the face of the earth for some time now. An attack on Jerusalem, especially on that chosen day would make Ahmadinejad a hero and revered historical figure for centuries to come and the man is just insane enough to try to pull it off.

So the questions arise:

  • Why has the United States been raised to the highest threat level of security over a thwarted terrorist attack over in the United Kingdom?
  • Why wasn't it raised to the same level when the London subway bombings occurred?
  • Could the Bush Administration know more than they’re letting on about an additional impending danger that they don’t want to panic the American population about?

Press reports are full of speculation that the London terrorist attacks would have to involve approximately 50 or more men (ten airliners, five men each), and yet British authorities have rounded up and have information on only about 24 or so.

With the nation on its highest alert level, why is our president flying around making political visits from his ranch in Texas, instead of heading directly to the White House?

The Homeland Security Agency is also asserting that those 17 Egyptian students posed no threat to our security, which begs the question; why did 11 of them disappear the moment they stepped onto American soil?

Could they have been “test mules” to see if the necessary chemicals and components could successfully make it through airport security? If I were planning such an attack, I’d make sure the most important step (the smuggling aboard an airliner of the necessary personnel with fake ID’s and material) was possible, and yet no mention of that phase of the operation has been mentioned.

If the world’s intelligence community could detect the coming final stage, why wasn’t the first and most critical stage outlined?

If the plan was never meant to occur, maybe that crucial first test step never happened either, and those Egyptian students really weren’t a threat.

Could the student’s disappearance and the possible intentionally foiled plot to destroy American and British airliners have been a diversion to take the world’s intelligence agency’s attention away from the real plot?

The nuclear destruction of Jerusalem!

I hope I’m wrong…

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About Jet Gardner

I like collecting books, music, movies, chess sets and friends
  • On the off chance you are interested, Time has a good overview of how to understand politics in Iran.

  • Sorry Ruvy, got confused-It’s Dave Nalle’s wife’s birthday on the 22nd re:254. I’m glad you’re still with us too… your wife too.


  • Aaman-that means that prayers were answered. I’m glad.


  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Jet, what gave you the idea to wish my wife a happy birthday? My wife’s birthday was in June! I’ll tell her you’re wishing her a belated happy birthday. Thank you for the thought, though

  • We’re still here, Nostradammy

  • Dean


    On Halloween, you can wear your Ahmadinejad mask.

    That should scare the hell out of the other kids.

  • Dean

    That was my costume.

    No one else noticed it but I knew it would attract you.

  • As long as you don’t go out naked again like you did last year, we’ll all be safe.

  • Dean

    Soon it will be Halloween.

    Watch out for the goblins.

  • Ruvy 274-for those of us who prayed for your safety, I’m glad I was wrong. Let’s all exhale and move on.

    did you tell your wife happy birthday for me?


  • Rugy for those of us who prayed for your safety, I’m glad I was wrong. Let’s all exhale and move on.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Well, for what it is worth, folks, it is about midnight in Teheran. If the assholes start up with us, it won’t be on this “holy of holy” dates. So we’re still here. Both my sons and my wife returned in safety from Jerusalem and we’re all home enjoying the quiet of the Hill of Incense (Ma’aleh Levona).

    I feel safe to say that you were wrong about an attack on Israel, Jet, as was that “Bible code” guy in comment #253.

  • Dear NancyGail, You’re right, him choosing Aug 22 had nothing to do with Mohamed ascending into heaven on that day.

    I have absolutely no problem with people disagreeing with me, but once the point is made it isn’t necessary to go on and on and on and on and make a bunch of smart-ass remarks designed only to get my goat in mind.

    Having said that, your comments are most welcome here.

  • The fact that Iran is even testing the idea of missles gives me pause. And considering Iran refuses to heed the UN Council unanimous warning of “cease and desist” is troubing. Keep in mind the firing of nuclear weapons missed its mark by a long shot. Technology is one thing, but ability is quite another. Terrorism does not need a day in particular to work.
    BTW, Jet, disagreesing with you does not not make anyone less. Americans understand clearly the 1st Amendment.

  • Well since CNN, all the major networks, Fox News and half of the world’s newspapers have done stories on it, I guess you’re right Dean.

    I fell foolish

  • Dean

    “An Iranian Diversion From An Attack On Jerusalem Planned August 22nd?”

    It’s not funny. It’s asinine.

  • I’m so glad you think it’s funny Dean

  • Dean

    Don’t give up.

    Halloween isn’t far away.

  • PS-Tell your wife I said Happy Birthday!!

  • Has Iran’s answer to the nuclear demands come in any other form yet so we can relax? He was supposed to answer today.

  • Glad you’re still with us Ruvy. I thought it was to happen at night, so fingers are still crossed.


  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Deano, Jet,

    No missile has come bursting out of the east to destroy Jerusalem as of 14:30 in the afternoon. It is possible that one or more missiles will come from the north, but I’ve gotten no reports of sirens over the north…

    So far, so good.

  • You guys still here?

  • What Ruvy-You mean Dean?

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    I dunno, Jet. I haven’t got a clue. But I know who to ask.

  • Dean

    My friend,Prophet Jumbalaya Kumbalaya Jones assures me that nothing will happen until the day after Halloween.

    But only if the witch howls.

  • Okay so clear up the confusion, did he ascend the 21st or the 22nd?

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    The day is not over yet, Jet. It is a bit past 07:30 here. The day is just beginning. My wife and kids are in Jerusalem…

  • I love how the network and cable news is just now catching up to me tonight. Soothsayer Jet?

  • Dave #254-You know somehow I knew your wife’s birthday HAD to be the 22nd. Either hers or yours.

  • Ruvy…”The crescent moon and star is the symbol of Islam (in case anybody didn’t know).” Ovbiously you didn’t pay attention to the cover of the book being featured with this article?

    Well by now it should be the 22nd there, so I’ll be happy to report I was wrong.

    Take care Ruvy

  • I’ve mentioned at other times that my wife feels the Presence of G-d, at times rather strongly. she felt that this evening. Our sons are in Jerusalem, at a friend’s house, at a sleepover.

    As a parent myself, when I think kids at a friend’s house, ‘Presence of God’ becomes a euphemism for my wife feeling something else entirely.


  • BTW, my wife’s birthday is the 22nd.

    Hey, and wouldn’t it be ironic if the Makti actually was born tomorrow and we find out that Islam really IS the one true religion.

    I still wouldn’t convert. I’d rather be an atheist in Jahannam than a muslim in paradise.


  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Well kids,

    The big day is approaching and an interesting e-mail came my way this afternoon from Aryeh Gallin – who lives in Jerusalem.

    “It was reported on Fox that August 22nd coming up, will be the 400th year anniversary (=happens only once every 400 years) of a lining up of the moon-god’s crescent moon and star. There have been threats against the West on this day”.

    The crescent moon and star is the symbol of Islam (in case anybody didn’t know).

    Buried in the e-mail, underneath the 20 point Times New Roman font that Aryeh had highlighted the above with was something that had me even more interested even though I myself have written that the Bible Code is not to be used for prophecy.



    hello. My name is Harry Walther. I am a Bible Code Researcher, author and teacher of Bible Prophecy. Our site has been active for nine
    years and has over 15 million hits. Also, I have been interviewed on over 85 radio stations around the world in the last year.

    Last week I found a Bible Code that says on AUG 22 2006 (28th AV 5766) IRAN WILL LAUNCH A MISSILE ATTACK AGAINST ISRAELI FORCES USING

    I’m assuming that this can be found here.

    This is the most complete and DATED code I have ever found or read of.

    I don’t know if this code can be prevented or not but hopefully this information can be useful to you. In Michael Drosnin’s book, THE BIBLE CODE, he also found a code: MAJOR EARTHQUAKE-5766.

    If you study recent earthquake activity, six
    earthquakes have happened in two weeks time, Mexico, Albania, Indonesia, Mexico again… moving towards Iran.

    SHALOM from a Friend of Israel,


    I’ve mentioned at other times that my wife feels the Presence of G-d, at times rather strongly. she felt that this evening. Our sons are in Jerusalem, at a friend’s house, at a sleepover.

  • Please Gonzo…. not in front of the Klingons!

  • good luck at the eye docs…

    and no worries, ya know i’m just pulling on yer leg ta see if it will come off



  • Thanks Gonzo. EVERYONE please join with me and pray for Ruvy’s safety over tne next few days.

    Gonzo, I have a doctor’s appointment for my eyes at 3PM but I’ll certainly check it out when I get back.

  • well Jet… just another day or two until we find out, eh?

    so…before the world goes nutty… or not, ya should swing by my “far beyond driven” Article




    trying ta lighten the Mood a bit, i’m with ya in Hoping this turns out to be Nothing…

    we will see


  • Ruvy, now that you’ve moved, how close are you to Jerusalem? Keep your head down tonight.


  • Chris-I’m very grateful for your quick action, sorry I bitched. However if I hadn’t everyone would be trying to feel my forehead.

    In gratitude

  • Thanks for that Ruvy. I hope I don’t turn out to be a soothsayer. I feel a little vindicated that I wrote this last week, and people are finally catching up to me.

    I still say I hope this doesn’t come true.

    Keep your head down


  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    If you guys can stop worrying whose hairy ass you are interested in smelling, you might get some serious news.

    Debkafiles is kind of like a backdoor data drop for former Mossad boys. They have all the weaknesses and strengths of the Mossad. They are great at analysis and lousy at prognostication. That said, they are merely repeating much of what Jet reported over a week ago, confirming his belief that the Iranians will try for an attack on Jerusalem on 22 August, attempting to reproduce the bright and brilliant sky that supposed accompanied Mohammed’s trip to Jerualem 14 centuries ago.

    Where they differ from Jet is in one word – nuclear. “Unconventional weapons” could be nuclear, but need not be.

    Added Note from E. Winston: Will PM OLmert, his gang and Chief of Staff Dan Halutz have the sense to vaporize Iran or simply wait for Israel to vanish? If Israel is to play her role as the sacrificial goat, then – after Iran explodes its bomb – America will have sufficient reason to eliminate Iran.

    DEBKAfile – We start where the media stop

    DEBKAfile Special Report August 20, 2006, 1:22 AM (GMT+02:00)

    Washington is keeping a sharp weather eye out for Tuesday, August 22, which this year corresponds in the Islamic calendar to the date on which many Sunni Muslims commemorate the night flight of the prophet Muhammad on his winged horse Buraq to “the farthest mosque”, which is traditionally identified with Jerusalem.

    According to the Muslim legend, on that day, a divine white light spread over Jerusalem and the whole world.

    DEBKAfile’s intelligence sources report that information rated “highly credible” has reached US undercover agencies of a secret report presented to Iran’s supreme ruler Ali Khamenei by Abdollah Shabhazi, one of the heads of the Supreme National Security Council. He claims to expose a mega-terror plot against Jerusalem scheduled for August 22, which aims at killing large numbers of Jews, Arabs and Christians.

    This atrocity will reportedly arm the United States and Israel with the pretext for hitting Iran’s nuclear installations, as well its capital, Tehran, and other big cities.

    Shabhazi says the US and Israel need to launch a military campaign to restore the deterrent strength they lost in the Lebanon war.

    The massive attack will reportedly focus on the Old City of Jerusalem and its eastern suburbs. The Iranian report claims that the plotters, who are not identified, are eager to recreate the divine white light whish spread over Jerusalem in the year 632. It does not rule out the use of a non-conventional weapon.

    DEBKAfile reports that the authorities in Israel do not appear to be taking this threat seriously, unlike Washington – and Tehran.

    Deeply impressed, Iran’s rulers launched a large-scale are, sea and ground exercise Saturday, Aug. 19. The maneuver, dubbed the Blow of Zolfaghar (the sword used by Imam Ali), involves 12 divisions, army Chinook helicopters, unmanned planes, parachutists, electronic war units and special forces. State-run television reported a new anti-aircraft system was tested “to make Iranian air space unsafe for our enemies.”

    The massive military exercise will spread over 14 of Iran’s 30 provinces and last about five weeks.

    DEBKAfile adds: The point of this massive display of might is in fact to place Iran’s armed forces on the ready for the contingency of a US-Israeli offensive on August 22 as per Shabhazi’s prediction. The exercise will be moved to Tehran to prepare the capital for a potential assault.

    August 22, furthermore, is also the day of Iran’s formal reply to the incentives packages on offer from the West in return for halting its uranium enrichment projects.

    For weeks, Tehran was under pressure from the United States and Europe for an earlier reply, but insisted on August 22.

    Prof. Bernard Lewis, the great scholar of Islam and the Middle East offers the background in the Wall Street Journal on Aug. 8:

    “In Islam, as in Judaism and Christianity, there are certain beliefs concerning the cosmic struggle at the end of time – Gog and Magog, anti-Christ, Armageddon, and for Shiite Muslims, the long awaited return of the Hidden Imam… Mr. Ahmadinejad and his followers clearly believe that this time is now, and that the terminal struggle has already begun and is indeed well advanced. It may even have a date, indicated by several references by the Iranian president to giving his final answer to the U.S. about nuclear development by Aug. 22. This was at first reported as “by the end of August,” but Mr. Ahmadinejad’s statement was more precise.”

    Revolutionary Iran habitually links fundamentalist symbolism to political events.

    Prof. Lewis explains the significance of Aug. 22 and adds ominously:

    “This might well be deemed an appropriate date for the apocalyptic ending of Israel and, if necessary, of the world. It is far from certain that Mr. Ahmadinejad plans any such cataclysmic events precisely for Aug. 22. But it would be wise to bear the possibility in mind.”

    The Shiites do not recognize Rajab 27 as the date of Muhammad’s purported flight to Jerusalem but celebrate Mabath to commemorate the day they believe Allah appeared before Mohammed in a cave and told him he had been chosen as the prophet to spread the divine message across the world. Mabath is marked by Shiites in Iran and other parts of the Middle East with great ceremony.

    Claiming to represent the true Islam, the Shiite rulers of Tehran are expected by Washington to mark the date by demonstrating their military superiority for all Muslims to see.

    In addition to Bernard Lewis’s hypothesis, speculation is rife in Washington about what Iran has in store for next Tuesday. Tehran may announce success in producing enriched uranium of a higher grade, meaning it is no more than six months away from a weapons-grade capability. While providing justification for UN Security Council sanctions, Tehran prefers to believe that this announcement will be its passport for admission to the world’s nuclear club and its attendant privileges, including the right to enrich uranium independently.

    In the meantime, the Iranians are putting on a spectacular show of military bravado to show the world and reassure their own people that they are not afraid of threats.

    Copyright 2000-2006 DEBKAfile. All Rights Reserved.
    I have one note to add to all of this.

    The Book of Daniel prophesies a “King of the South” pushing against a “King of the North
    and being crushed by him in the End of Days.

    Jewish scholars centuries ago identified the “King of the South” to be an alliance of Arab states lead by Persia. Will this attack, should it occur, be the push against the “King of the North?”

  • Thanks Clavos. I wonder if Chris would check into that for me?

    [I did. It was Martin Lav. I have amended the comment and added a warning to him. Comments Editor]

  • Clavos

    re #242:

    My guess is JOM.

  • Dean

    “And Jet, word is you love a hairy ass….”

    Funny — but it’s not mine.

    Someone else is having fun.

  • Thank you Victor

  • The joke was that Snakes On a Plane has nothing to do with this article. It took a hefty dose of creative license for me to find even the most remote connection between the movie and the topic here.

    Maybe not the best joke ever, but it was a friendly joke, aimed at bringing a little levity, that’s all.

    And while I’m at it, here’s a friendly suggestion for you, Jet. It might be beneficial for you to simply ignore people who act as Dean has acted here. Your effort to reply to every comment is laudable in most circumstances, but when someone goes out of their way to annoy and provoke you, that person clearly neither appreciates nor deserves such a level of courtesy.

  • And when I figure out what the hell that has to do with the subject of this article, I’d appreciate you letting me in on the joke.

    And while we’re at it, you can explain why Dean’s been repeatedly allowed to goad me into losing my temper, and when I respond I’m the one getting edited.

  • Thanks for trying anyway Victor.

  • Getting back onto the topic here, if August 22nd is the date when WW3 begins, we’d better hurry up because that means we only have a few days left to go see Snakes On a Plane.

  • Martin Lav

    And Jet, word is you love a hairy ass….

    [MARTIN LAV: Impersonating other commenters is a certain way to get yourself banned. This is your only warning. Thank you. Comments Editor]

  • Truth Teller


    Yes, you’re wrong.

  • Dean

    “Are you attracted to Gonzo?”
    “Do you find my photo sexy?”
    “Do you have a fettish for verbal abuse?”
    “Go take your toys somewhere else.”

    Where I come from, that would make someone else the ass.

  • Dean I’m refering to comment 230. You seem to be the only one not realizing you’re making a total ass of yourself here.

    [Edited. Enough now. Comments Editor]

  • Dean

    “Are you attracted to Gonzo?”
    “Do you find my photo sexy?”
    “Do you have a fettish for verbal abuse?”
    “Go take your toys somewhere else.

    “We are trying to have an intelligent converstaion here.”


    Are you referring to the above?

  • Gonzo, and interesting concept to be “baptised” in the english language.

  • Dean being a smartass, why don’t you try contributing to the converstaion? Exactly what is your purpose for constantly being on this string?

    Are you attracted to Gonzo?
    Do you find my photo sexy?
    Do you have a fettish for verbal abuse?

    Go take your toys somewhere else.

    We are trying to have an intelligent converstaion here.

    All my love

  • well Dean, if yer mensch enough to come on over and try and “immerse” me…

    i’m willing to give it a go

    otherwise, your Worship is duly noted


  • Dean

    First prize should be total immersion in an English language course.

  • Gonzo, I thought I was the bad influence here, but you may be right.

  • Damn it Gonzo! When I’m stupid you educate me. When I’m pissed you make me laugh. Who the fuck do you think you are-My mother?

    Thanks mom
    Love Jet

  • tsk tsk…. Jet, such language…

    looks like i’m a bad Influence



  • Dean if you’d bother to read the blurb beneath each and every one of my articles you would’ve found this…

    I try to answer EVERY comment you care to leave here because I find them all important to me… Even if your foolish enough to disagree.

    I believe the proper phrase amoung polite folks in these kinds of situation is FUCK YOU

    But do have a nice day and please when you want to contribute something worthwhile to the converstaion, you’re most welcome here.


  • Dean

    Has anyone given any thought that out of 222 posts, 110 are from Jet?

    Looks like he wins first prize.

    What should it be?

  • Has anyone given thought to how little all those patriot missile batteries gave to Israel…Not

  • Clavos

    It’s not just vague, it’s inconsistent with the facts, specifically, he says he drugged her, but the autopsy didn’t find any drugs in her system.

  • The latest theory is that his confession was so legally vague that he can still get off and he’s written a book about it, so it could all be a publicity stunt…

    some stunt

  • Actually it’s not all that good a theory (unless you subscribe to really nutty conspiracies which I occasionally confess to doing). But it is a rather odd little coincidence…hmmm…


  • Good theory Glan, but even I dont’ think he could pull that off. What about the peace treaty suddenly lulling everyone into complacency?

  • This may sound a little off the wall…but something Glenn Beck said on his show last week stuck in my mind. And that was his little quip about a diversion in the news right before Aug. 22 that would divert the media and the worlds attention away from the situation from Isreal:

    Wow! Can you say Jon Benet Ramsey anyone?

    Just an odd coincidence I suppose…


  • Gonzo 207-DAMN IT GONZO!!! What kind of discussion can we have if you won’t stop posting facts here.

    Think man think!

    and thank you

  • Dean 205 probably because your buddy Glen Beck right-wing america devoted two nights+ to it on CNN?

    Tantum meus sententia

  • ok…now i’ll give ya the 10 Incidents and their timing…

    same source , Olberman and staff at MSNBC… this is the really scary shit that raises Questions abuot the Administration and what they are doing…

    *OLBERMANN: The term we employ is the nexus of politics and terror. It does not imply that there is no terror, but it also does not deny that there is politics. And it refuses to assume that counterterror measures in this country are not being influenced by politics.

    Our third story on the COUNTDOWN, the basis of all this, at heart, remarks made on May 10, 2005, by a former Bush administration official discussing the old color-coded terror threat warning system. More often than not, he said, “We were the least inclined to raise it. Sometimes we disagreed with the intelligence assessment, sometimes we thought even if the intelligence was good, you don‘t necessarily put the country on alert. There were times when some people were really aggressive about raising it. And we said, ‘For that?‘”

    The speaker was the first secretary of Homeland Security, Tom Ridge. In The light of those remarks and his criticism this week of the vice president for politicizing terror in the context of the Connecticut senatorial primary, it is imperative that we exam each of the coincidences of timing since 2002, including the one last week in which excoriating comments by leading Republicans about leading Democrats just happened to precede arrests in vast purported terror plot, arrests that we now know were carried out on timeline requested not by British, nor necessitated by the evidence, but requested by this government.

    We introduce these coincidences to you exactly as we did when we first compiled this top 10 list after the revelation that the announced threats New York‘s subway system, last October, had been wildly overblown. And we do so by reminding you and ourselves, here, that perhaps the simplest piece of wisdom in the world is called “the logic fallacy.” Just because event A occurred and then event B occurs, that does not automatically mean that event A caused event B. But neither does it say the opposite. The “Nexus of Politics and Terror,” please judge for yourself.


    (voice-over): No. 1, May 18, 2002, the first details of the president‘s daily briefing of August 6, 2001 are revealed, including its title “Bin Ladin Determined to Strike in U.S.” The same day another memo is discovered revealing the FBI knew of men with links to al Qaeda training at an Arizona flight school. The memo was never acted upon. Questions about 9/11 intelligence failures are swirling.

    May 20, 2002:

    UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The terror warnings from the highest levels of the federal government, tonight are…

    OLBERMANN: Two days later, FBI Director Mueller declares that another terrorist attack is “inevitable.”

    UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tonight there are even more warnings…

    OLBERMANN: The next day, the department of Homeland Security issues warnings of attacks against railroads nationwide and against New York City landmarks, like the Brooklyn Bridge and the Statue of Liberty.

    No. 2, Thursday, June 6, 2002…

    COLEEN ROWLEY, FBI AGENT: I never really anticipated this kind of impact.

    OLBERMANN: Coleen Rowley, the FBI agent who tried to alert her superiors to the specialized flight training taken by Zacarias Moussaoui, who‘s information suggests the government missed a chance to break up the 9/11 plot, testifies before Congress. Senate Committee Chair Graham says, Rowley‘s testimony has inspired similar pre-9/11 whistleblowers.

    Monday June 10, 2002, four days later…

    JOHN ASHCROFT, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: We have disrupted an unfolding terrorist plot.

    OLBERMANN: Speaking from Russia, Attorney General John Ashcroft reveals that an American named Jose Padilla is under arrest, accused to plotting a radiation bomb attack in this country. In fact, Padilla had, by this time, already been detained for more than one month.

    No. 3, February 5, 2003, Secretary of State Powell tells the United Nations Security Council of Iraq‘s concealment of weapons including 18 mobile biological weapons laboratories, justifying a U.N. or U.S. first strike, many in the U.N. are doubtful. Months later, much of the information proves untrue.

    February 7, 2003, two days later, as anti-war demonstrations continue to take place around the globe.

    TOM RIDGE, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: Take some time to prepare for an emergency…

    OLBERMANN: Homeland Security Secretary Ridge cites credible threats by al Qaeda and raises the terror alert level to orange. Three days after that, Fire Administrator David Paulison, who would become the acting head of FEMA after the Hurricane Katrina disaster, advises Americans to stock up on plastic sheeting and duct tape to protect themselves against radiological or biological attack.

    No. 4, July 23, 2003, the White House admits that the CIA, months before the president‘s State of the Unions Address, expressed strong doubts about the claim that Iraq had attempted to buy uranium from Niger.

    On the 24th the Congressional report on the 9/11 attacks is issued. It criticizes government at all levels. It reveals an FBI informant had been living with two of the future highjackers. It concludes that Iraq had no link to al Qaeda. Twenty-eight pages of the report are redacted.

    On the 26th, American troops are accused of the beating Iraqi prisoners.

    July 29, 2003, three days later, amid all of the negative headlines…

    UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Word of a new possible al Qaeda attack…

    OLBERMANN: Homeland Security issues warnings of terrorist attempts to use airplanes for suicide attacks.

    No. 5, December 17, 2003, 9/11 Commission Co-Chair Thomas Kean says the attacks were preventable. The next day, a federal appeals court says the government cannot detain suspected radiation bomber Jose Padilla indefinitely without charges and the chief U.S. weapons inspector in Iraq, Dr. David Kay, who has previously announced he has found no weapons of mass destruction there, announces he will resign his post.

    December 21, 2003, four days later, the Sunday before Christmas…

    UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today the United States government raised the national threat level.

    Homed Land Security, again, raises the threat level to orange, claiming credible intelligence of further plots to crash airliners into U.S cities. Subsequently six international flights into this country are canceled after some passenger names purportedly produced matches on government “No-Fly” lists. The French later identified those matched names, one belongs to an insurance salesman from Wales, another to an elderly Chinese woman, a third to a 5-year-old boy.

    No. 6, March 30, 2004 the new chief weapons inspector in Iraq, Charles Duelfer, tells Congress “we have still not found any WMD in that country” and after weeks of having refused to appear before the 9/11 Commission, Condoleezza Rice relents, and agrees to testify.

    On the 31st, four Blackwater USA contractors working in Iraq are murdered, their mutilated bodies dragged through the streets and left on public display in Fallujah. The roll of civilian contractors in Iraq is now widely questioned.

    April 2, 2004…

    UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The FBI Has issued a new warning tonight…

    OLBERMANN: Homeland Security issues a bulletin warning that terrorists may try to blow up buses and trains using fertilizer and fuel bombs, like the one detonated in Oklahoma City. Bombs stuffed into satchels or duffle bags.

    No. 7, May 16, 2004, Secretary of State Powell, appears on “Meet the Press.” Moderator Tim Russert closes by asking about the enormous personal credibility Powell had placed before the U.N. in laying out a case against Saddam Hussein. An aide to Powell interrupts the question saying the interview is over.

    TIM RUSSERT, “MEET THE PRESS”: I think that was one of your staff Mr. Secretary. I don‘t think that‘s appropriate.

    COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Get—Emily, get out of the way.

    OLBERMANN: Powell finishes his answer, admitting that much of the information he had been given about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq was

    POWELL: …inaccurate and wrong and in some cases deliberately misleading.

    OLBERMANN: On the 21st, new photos showing mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib Prison are released.

    On the 24th “Associated Press” video, from Iraq, confirms U.S. Forces mistakenly bombed a wedding party, killing more than 40.

    Wednesday May 26, 2004, two days later…

    ASHCROFT: God afternoon

    OLBERMANN: Attorney General Ashcroft and FBI Director Mueller warned that intelligence from multiple sources…

    ASHCROFT: Indicates al Qaeda‘s specific intention to hit the United States‘ heart.

    OLBERMANN: And that 90 percent of the arrangement for an attack on the United States were complete. The color coded warning system is not raised. The Homeland Security secretary, Tom Ridge, does not attend the announcement.

    No. 8, July 6, 2004, Democratic presidential candidate, John Kerry selects John Edwards as his vice presidential running mate producing a small bump in the election opinion polls and producing a huge swing in media attention toward the Democratic campaign.

    July 8, 2004, two days later…

    RIDGE: Credible reporting now indicates that al Qaeda is moving forward with its plans to carry out a large-scale attack in the United States…

    OLBERMANN: Homeland Secretary Ridge warns of information about al Qaeda attacks during the summer or autumn. Four days after that, the head of the U.S. Election Assistance Commission, DeForest Soaries Jr. confirms he has written to Ridge about the prospect of postponing the upcoming president election in the event it is intercepted by terrorist acts.

    No. 9, July 29, 2004, at their party convention in Boston, the Democrats formally nominate John Kerry as their candidate for president. As in the wake of any convention the Democrats now dominate the media attention over the subsequent weekend.

    August 1, 2004, Monday morning, three days later.

    RIDGE: It is as reliable as source—group of sources that we‘ve ever seen before.

    OLBERMANN: The department of Homeland Security raises the alert status for financial centers in New York, New Jersey, and Washington to orange. The evidence supporting the warning, reconnaissance data left in a home in Iraq. Later proves to be roughly four years old and largely out of date.

    No. 10, October 6, 2005, 10:00 a.m. Eastern Time, the president addresses the National Endowment for Democracy, once again emphasizing the importance of the war on terror and insisting his government has broken up at least 10 terrorist plots since 9/11.

    At 3:p.m. Eastern Time, five hours after the president‘s speech had begun, the “Associated Press” reports that Karl Rove will testify again to the CIA leak grand jury and that Special Prosecutor Fitzgerald has told Rove he cannot guaranteed that he will not be indicted.

    UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We‘re awaiting a news conference at the bottom of the hour…

    OLBERMANN: At 5:00 17 p.m. Eastern Time, seven hours after the president‘s speech has begun, New York officials disclose a bomb threat to the city‘s subway system, based on information supplied by the federal government. A Homeland Security spokesman says the intelligence upon which the disclosure is based is of “doubtful credibility.” And it later proves that New York City had known of the threat for at least three days and had increased police presence in the subways long before making the announcement at that particular time.

    Local New York television station WNBC reports it had the story of the threats days in advance of the announcement, but was asked by high ranking federal officials in New York and Washington to hold off on its story. Less than four days after having revealed the threat, Mayor Michael Bloomberg of New York says, “Since the period of the threat now seems to be passing, I think over the immediate future we will be slowly be winding down the enhanced security.” While news organizations ranging from the “New York Post” to NBC NEWS, quotes sources who say there were reasons to believe the informant who triggered the warning simply made up. A senior U.S. counter-terrorism official tells the “New York Times,” “there was no there, there.”


    In all fairness, as we observe last October and we observer again tonight, we could possibly construct a similar timeline of terror events and warnings and their relationship to the opening of new chain stores around the country. But if merely a reasonable case could be made that any of these juxtapositions of events are more than just coincidences, especially the one last week in which terror policy was again injected directly into a political race, it underscores the need for questions to be asked in this country, questions about what is prudence and what is fear-mongering. *

    to Quote Thulsa Doom…
    “contemplate that upon the Tree of Woe”


  • Adam 203-thank you-as the title of this piece implies, I’ve always believed it was a diversion to distract from a bigger plot.

  • 202 Oh Gonzo why?????? no I have a craving for a raspberry tart… damn it

  • 201 The various components couldn’t be smuggled aboard on one person, plus you’d need redundant supplies incase one was stopped for another reason such as suspicious behaviour.

  • Gonzo 200-Thanks-In addition, every news reports shows a minimum of 4-5 people on each airliner to get it aboard, also 911 required 5 terrorists each on the planes.

  • STCC 199-As I said earlier a few bright fireworks would do the trick and rockets fired from southern Lebanon containing powdered yellow cake could spread radiation sickness.

    No damage to the Dome
    The sky is lit up
    People hurt and injured.

    Can you prove behond a shadow of a doubt that Iran has no nuclear weapons? Bush seems to be awful upset over something that the President of These U-nited States can’t be wrong can he?

    Subways don’t fly
    Ah, that explains all the increased security in New York and Washington DC’s subways.


    -I can’t believe you even asked that question. It’s good old Bushy… he does not know his head from his ass and probably needs all these vacations to prevent his fragile brain from imploding.

    Dear God-something we agree on???????????


    If you’d been following the news you’d know that those missing students admitted never intending to go to school here. You also missed the point.
    If they can sneak into the country so easily under “Legitimate” visas, so can terrorists.


    If you want cheap labor, how about all thos mexicans Bush is giving a free ride to, hoping they’ll all vote republican out of gratitude?

  • Gonzo 197… many thanks my friend… this has been a recorded announcement…


  • well Adam, one correction… is is actually quite easy to build an inprovisational device in the constraints of the time it takes for a plane to cross the atlantic

    shorter, in fact.. low yeild devices can be constructed in less than an hour, if you have the materials at hand

    this is quite obvious to any owner of “the Anarchist’s Cookbook”, much less a trained explosives expert…

    as for the rest… well, i think you are correct in that the GOP is definately playing politics with terror.. and there is a good case for Argument that that have indeed manipulated events/photo ops/press conferences/ raising the color code to do just that

    i posted this in the commentary on my Liberman article… i guess i should copy it here for the Topic , since Adam raised it…

    the research is form MSNBC, taken from a transcript of monday’s “Countdown with Keith Olberman”

    *OLBERMANN: Good evening from Los Angeles.

    The first hint that the plot, while real, might not have been quite as real as it was being advertised came Thursday night, when “TIME” magazine reported that the alleged airline liquid bomb plotters were arrested by the British only after American intelligence reported chatter among them.

    Then came the revelation that the British had the purported conspirators under surveillance for 13 months. Now we know, from senior members of British intelligence, that no attack was imminent, that those suspected had yet to buy airline tickets, and some of them didn‘t even has passports.

    British intelligence wanted another week, wanted to capture the man who was hoping to make a dry run, as he dry ran. Our government insisted on immediate arrests, and proceeded, both before and after them, to make every imaginable piece of political out of them.

    That‘s our fifth story on the COUNTDOWN, the nexus of politics and terror. Another question, at least the 14th in the last five years, about whether a government would really exaggerate or manipulate terror developments, not to allay the fears of (INAUDIBLE) citizenry, but rather to inflame them.

    We will look at 10 of those previous questions of timing and juxtaposition. We‘ll learn how former secretary of Homeland Security Ridge blasted Vice President Cheney for making the kind of political hay we just discussed, and Lisa Myers with the details of the significant dispute between this country and England over when to interrupt the purported plot.

    First, the irony, that whatever the political end of this is, it did not seem to have an exceptional impact on public opinion, the president devoting his entire day to the issue of national security, putting in appearances at both the Pentagon and the State Department, a new poll from the folks at “Newsweek” suggesting his terror ratings are already benefiting from something of a bounce, a majority, 55 percent, now approving of Mr. Bush‘s handling of terrorism and homeland security. That is an 11-point boost since May.

    But the same number, 55 percent, still disapproving of how the president is doing his job overall, “overall” being the key word in how Mr. Bush is approaching last week‘s terror arrests in Britain, using them today to make his case for a wide variety of pet projects, including domestic wiretapping and the PATRIOT Act.


    GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We better not call upon the federal government and people in the front lines of fighting terror to do their job and disrupt cells without giving people the necessary tools to disrupt terrorist plots before they strike, and that‘s what we‘re doing here in this government.

    And that‘s why the terrorist surveillance program exists, a program that some in Washington would like to dismantle. That‘s why we passed the PATRIOT Act, to give our folks the tools necessary to be able to defend America. And the lesson for those of us in Washington, D.C., is to set aside politics and give our people the tools necessary to protect the American people.


    OLBERMANN: But has anybody done that? The administration has, at minimum, opened itself for criticism that the push to arrest the alleged plotters last week and the political firestorm last week did not constitute a coincidence. And that criticism has been able to stand up on its hind legs after comments from the former secretary of Homeland Security, Mr. Ridge, and comments from British intelligence about how the American government insisted on acting now, rather than waiting just days longer and gathering more valuable evidence still.

    Ridge in a moment.

    First, our senior investigative correspondent Lisa Myers in London.


    LISA MYERS, NBC SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Keith, today, the threat level here was lowered from critical to severe, but the country remains on edge.

    (voice-over): Confusion reigned today at Heathrow Airport, even as security measures eased a bit with the lowering of the threat level.

    JOHN REID, BRITISH HOME SECRETARY: This means that the terrorist attack is still highly likely, but the intelligence assessment suggests that such an attack is no longer imminent.

    MYERS (voice-over): Intelligence sources say the investigation has turned up new evidence that has changed some thinking about the plot, but not the overall assessment.

    DEPUTY COMMISSIONER PAUL STEPHENSON, LONDON METROPOLITAN POLICE: Put simply, this was intended to be mass murder on an unimaginable scale.

    MYERS: Here‘s what we know now. The plot was to blow up nine planes bound for the U.S. as they crossed the Atlantic. Actual flights and dates had not yet been chosen.

    A British official tells NBC News it‘s now believed there was to be only one suicide bomber per plane, instead of two, as previously believed.

    The bomb, authorities call the design ingenious, made of commonly available chemicals and components which could easily slip through security. Authorities intercepted a message that the design had been tested in Pakistan and worked.

    ROGER CRESSEY, NBC TERRORISM ANALYST: This could mean that the plot was about to enter the execution phase.

    MYERS: The plotters, 23 are under arrest in Britain, and at least seven in Pakistan. The alleged ringleader, Rashid Rauf. He‘s around 25, trained in explosives, and under arrest in Pakistan. Authorities tell NBC that Rauf was already wanted for murdering a relative in Britain.

    Those arrested here range in age from 17 to 35. Most are British citizens of Pakistani descent. Two are women. Some are recent converts to Islam.

    A Western counterterrorism official describes most of them as apprentices, though a few were known to British intelligence.

    Several had made martyrdom videos.

    MICHAEL SHEEHAN, NBC TERRORISM ANALYST: The combination of a local cell with an international link, that makes it very seriously dangerous.

    MYERS: The Pakistan connection is strong. Some British suspects trained in camps there, and money was wired from Pakistan to pay for plane tickets.

    British and American officials tell NBC there was a significant dispute over when to roll up this plot. The British wanted to wait at least another week, until the plotters moved toward executing a dry run, but the U.S. insisted on shutting down the operation now.

    LORD TOBY HARRIS, LONDON METROPOLITAN POLICE AUTHORITY: I know that the United States government was very keen to move forward, and very keen to be able to make public the concerns that we had, so that security levels could be raised.

    MYERS: Al Qaeda‘s role in all this remains murky, but many officials do see fingerprints. The plot itself was right out of al Qaeda‘s playbook, strikingly similar to one previously foiled in the Philippines to blow up airliners over the Pacific.

    CRESSEY: Did they have operational control? Probably not. Were they aware of the operation? I think that‘s very likely.

    MYERS (on camera): The president said today that this looks like the kind of thing al Qaeda would do. But so far, there‘s no proof, Keith.


    OLBERMANN: Lisa Myers for us in London tonight. Lisa, great thanks.

    Bush administration officials now trying to claim that the vice president was unaware the British terror arrests were imminent when, on Wednesday of last week, he suggested that Senator Joe Lieberman‘s defeat in the Connecticut primary would encourage terrorists, even though by then the president had already known for about 72 hours of the arrests, the notoriously press-shy Mr. Cheney interrupting his summer vacation to tell reporters in a conference call that voters who supported Ned Lamont‘s antiwar candidacy might, quote, “embolden the al Qaeda types who want to break the will of the American people in terms of our ability to stay in the fight and complete the task.”

    This from the same man who had also said the insurgency in Iraq was in its last throes, the Bush administration‘s former Homeland Security secretary taking issue with the former colleague‘s most recent remark, Tom Ridge telling “Newsweek” magazine, “That may be the way the vice president sees it, but I don‘t see it that way, and I don‘t think most Americans see it that way.”

    Time now to call in our own Dana Milbank, also, of course, the national political reporter of “The Washington Post.”

    Dana, good evening.


    OLBERMANN: None of us can say for certain why the Bush administration Would have pressured British authorities to move early on the terror arrests. But giving them the benefit of the doubt, even doing that, did not the pounding by the vice president, by Ken Mehlman, by others still leave the administration wide open for doubt and even suspicion about the timing of all this?

    MILBANK: Well, Keith, that‘s just the kind of question that emboldens the al Qaeda types.

    OLBERMANN: Thank you very much.

    MILBANK: Well, it‘s not really even a matter of suspicion. I mean, Karl Rove came out earlier this year and said, Look, this is what our fall campaign is going to be about. It‘s about stirring up terrorism and of saying, We can protect you better than the other guy.

    I wouldn‘t get too bogged down in the timing issue, because if anything, the Bush administration politically would have wanted to wait till September or October, when everybody was paying attention. But it‘s not even an open secret. It‘s completely out in the open that terrorism is politicized routinely over and over again.

    OLBERMANN: One apparent strategy for Democrats, at least, and critics to respond to Mr. Cheney‘s remarks is to just dismiss them and dismiss him as irrelevant. Senator Clinton told a radio station in New York she does not take anything he says seriously any more. Is there a point? Is it conceivable there‘s a point at which that becomes the conventional wisdom about the vice president? Could he ever become a true liability to the administration‘s base?

    MILBANK: I‘m not sure about him becoming a liability to the base. But I think we have probably reached a point where people are discounting his remarks. You mentioned the “last throes” remarks. I mean, he had implicated Iraq and Saddam Hussein in the 9/11 attacks, we know that not to be true. He said Iraq had reconstituted nuclear weapons, we know that not to be true.

    So he‘s known as being a bit out there, a bit more fast and loose with the truth than others have been. That doesn‘t mean he‘s a liability, I mean, any more than he was before. He‘s rather low in the polls. But I get the feeling that each time they go to the well with this, there‘s a little bit less impact in the public, a little less fright that is actually thrown out of it.

    OLBERMANN: Truth aside, appropriateness aside, look at it as a political gamesmanship here. Did the Bush administration succeed in undercutting any damage that would have been done by the defeat of Joe Lieberman in the Connecticut primary last week? It seems as if we all heard and read last week more about Dick Cheney‘s comments than we did about what Ned Lamont‘s victory would portend for the Republican Party come November.

    MILBANK: I think they did succeed. And I‘m not sure that even without all the developments in Britain and what Cheney had said that it would have made that much of a difference. Lieberman, his defeat may actually ultimately help the Republicans anyway, because it shows a very divided Democratic Party.

    But certainly, this allowed the—to blunt any sort of an antiwar question. And I think the administration was quite clever in turning the British arrests to their advantage here.

    But I wouldn‘t be surprised if this does allow the Republicans to paint the Democrats as very divided.

    OLBERMANN: The poll numbers for the president, “Newsweek” poll, says, obviously, he‘s now in the positive numbers on homeland security. Then there‘s a CBS News poll, another job performance poll, he‘s still significantly below the low 40 in these polls. Would being viewed as strong on terror and security really matter to the president and the Republicans who are running in the fall if he were seen as being weak on absolutely everything else?

    MILBANK: Which is more or less what we‘re looking at right now. But I think the White House has—is breathing a certain sigh of relief when you do see those terrorism numbers, those homeland security numbers bumping up. This has really been the source of all of Bush‘s strength. Everything else has followed from it.

    Now, we‘re seeing Bush‘s numbers at 38 percent overall, still very low, only up a few points in the “Newsweek” poll. But if your homeland security numbers, if your terrorism numbers are moving up, presumably the others will follow. And they‘re certainly hoping they can bump it up a good bit more in the 90 days or whatever we have until the election.

    So I would take that as quite a positive sign that this is having a beneficial effect for the Republicans.

    OLBERMANN: Dana Milbank at “The Washington Post” and MSNBC. As always, Dana, great thanks.

    MILBANK: Thanks, Keith.

    OLBERMANN: Also here, more on the nexus of politics and terror. Has the administration shown a pattern of exploiting fear for political gain? We‘ll examine the 10 previous possible examples.

    And the 10 latest changes in security at our airports. What‘s safe, what‘s not, what changed in the last 15 minutes? And are we really focusing on the clear and present dangers that could bring a plane down?

    You are watching COUNTDOWN on MSNBC.*

    now THAT is some damn fine Journalism on the part of Olberman and his staff…


  • STCC 197: that big word at the top of this article says OPINION. Get your mommy to help you with it if you don’t know what it means…


  • Dean

    “The question has to be asked, is [Ahmadinejad] planning to light up Jerusalem’s night sky with a nuclear blast.”

    Rather, the question is why has so much has been posted about such an asinine statement.

  • Geez, I was only gone for four hours guys… I almost feel useless… let’s see what matter of mayhem I have to deal with…

  • The London bomb plot is turning out to be scare over nothing, like god knows how many other supposed plots. The so-called plotters didn’t even have passports, so they could never have gotten on a plane, for chrissake. Plus, it’s impossible to make a bomb out of liquids on a plane in a few hours.

    Expect these bogus exposes of terrorist plots to increase, especially before the November elections.

    I wouldn’t be surprised to learn the CIA is hard at work among Muslims in London to START plots among impressionable youths so they can expose them before the November elections. Bush/Cheney need a plot because they want to bomb Iran before the November election.

    It’s all about winning elections, dude. Not about winning the war on terror.

  • now you lack Imagination…

    simplicity itself for one to go in, place his container in the trash bin, leave…

    rinse and repeat, with the 5th person assembling the device

    i’m NOT saying it is the smartest plan, just that it woudl be feasible and fits the Facts as we know them so far and were reported by Jet



  • Someone that can count

    “it’s NOT that it takes 5 p[eople to “set off” the explosive, but that it woudl take 5 people to CARRY enough of the proposed liquid components to manufacture the explosive in flight
    a simple thing, but it is indicative of incomplete and sloppy thinking…”

    -Yes the 5 people would probably meet in the bathroom of the plane to perform such a complex operation. 🙂

  • nowhere near a “hopeless case” and thanks for providing a much more insightful Critique than your previous sniping…

    now, i’m NOT gonna do Jet’s work for him, but allow me to touch on a few things where your commentary still strikes me as logically fallacious…

    i agree that Iran has no nuclear capabilities, and have pointed such out in various places, including the fact that it is highly doubtful that Iran has anything close to a missile delivery system capable of striking specific target with any degree of certainty… so we tend to agree on those points…

    however…. when Jet asked why the alert levels weren’t raised after the ACTUAL London subway bombing , you quip..
    *Ah… Subways don’t fly*

    which is a bullshit answer… are you attempting to define terror attacks as ONLY involving planes?

    seems silly to me.. ANY attack on civilians in such a manner qualify, and plenty of folks ride the subway, possibly more than fly on planes, add to it the simple tactical fact that subways run UNDER the cities involved, therefore a large high explosive set off in a subway tunnel can have not only the effect of killing everyone on the train, but those ABOVE the train as well… this includes everything from pedestrians and traffic to building… ponder that before you dismiss a Threat

    when talking about the current plot out of England, Jet raises some decent points and you say…
    *-Unlike September 11, you don’t need 5 people to set off an explosive.*

    again, a facile response, and correct on the surface, but severely lacking in coherent Thought or examination of actual Facts…

    it’s NOT that it takes 5 p[eople to “set off” the explosive, but that it woudl take 5 people to CARRY enough of the proposed liquid components to manufacture the explosive in flight

    a simple thing, but it is indicative of incomplete and sloppy thinking…

    for the Record: i fucking shave with Occam’s razor

    that’s still NO excuse for missing or discoutning all the Variables in the Equation under examination…

    just some Thoughts


  • Someone that can count

    I figured this was a hopeless case for me to spend some quality time on. But if you wanted a more elaborate critique here it is:

    “Is it just coincidence that President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran named August 22 specifically to answer calls to curb his nation’s nuclear program? A date suspiciously months after the international demand was made? The question has to be asked, is he planning to light up Jerusalem’s night sky with a nuclear blast, as several people have theorized, or is this just a bluff to get the world’s worried attention back and increase his prestige currency with Islamic extremists?”

    Yes it is a coincidence (read about Occam’s (or Ockham’s) razor )
    1) Under Shi’a Islam, Muhammad’s journey is not as important as it is in Sunni Islam
    2) Iran does not possess Nuclear weapons
    3) If the Iranians can miraculously (through magic or dealing with Shi’a Aliens perhaps) were to possess nuclear weapons they don’t have missiles capable of carrying a nuclear warhead… If they use a plane the moment it leaves Iranian air space they would be shot down by the Israeli (if not the American airforce)

    “Jerusalem and the Jewish world have been in turmoil since AD 691 when Caliph ‘adb al-Malik had a shrine built by the Christians over the former site of Solomon’s Temple. Its purpose is said to have been an attempt to distract Muslim worshipers away from Mecca. It’s also said to have been an endeavor to assert Muslim dominance over the Christians and also to attempt domination over Judaism on a site traditionally associated with Abraham.”

    -I fail to see the point here… The temple mound was build on a hill as is most places of power in the ancient world (be they secular or religious). It is done for obvious symbolic reasons. Before it was Jewish temple it was a “pagan temple” when the Jews were exiled the second time, churches were built on the spot. When the Muslims took over they built a Mosque. When the crusaders took Jerusalem they converted the mosque as headquarters/church for the order of the Templars. Etc.

    “Ahmadinejad’s voice has been loudly and blatantly calling for the destruction of Israel from the face of the earth for some time now. An attack on Jerusalem, especially on that chosen day would make Ahmadinejad a hero and revered historical figure for centuries to come and the man is just insane enough to try to pull it off.”

    -1)An effective attack on Jerusalem by Iran is impossible for the simple reason that Iran does not possess the necessary military hardware (see my comments above).
    2)If Iran were given advance military hardware by our Shi’a Alien friends and they attack Jerusalem with a nuclear weapon… Iran would be burned to a crisp with dozens of Israeli nuclear strikes. The Israelis have at least a hundred nuclear missiles and multiple ways of delivering them.
    3)So if he possessed the means (WHICH HE DOES NOT) Ahmadi would not become a hero but the man who turned Iran into a burning crisp and caused the killing of millions of Iranians

    “So the questions arise: Why has the United States been raised to the highest threat level of security over a hwarted terrorist attack over in the United Kingdom? Why wasn’t it raised to the same level when the London subway bombings occurred?”

    -Ah… Subways don’t fly

    “Could the Bush Administration know more than they’re letting on about an additional impending danger that they don’t want to panic the American population about? Press reports are full of speculation that the London terrorist attacks would have to involve approximately 50 or more men (ten airliners, five men each), and yet British authorities have rounded up and have information on only about 24 or so.”

    -Unlike September 11, you don’t need 5 people to set off an explosive.

    “With the nation on its highest alert level, why is our president flying around making political visits from his ranch in Texas, instead of heading directly to the White House?”

    -I can’t believe you even asked that question. It’s good old Bushy… he does not know his head from his ass and probably needs all these vacations to prevent his fragile brain from imploding.

    “The Homeland Security Agency is also asserting that those 17 Egyptian students posed no threat to our security, which begs the question; why did 11 of them disappear the moment they stepped onto American soil?
    Could they have been “test mules” to see if the necessary chemicals and components could successfully make it through airport security? If I were planning such an attack, I’d make sure the most important step (the smuggling aboard an airliner of the necessary personnel with fake ID’s and material) was possible, and yet no mention of that phase of the operation has been mentioned.”

    -(Occam’s razor, Occam’s razor, Occams Razor) Study it !!! All of the students came from a small city in the Egyptian delta, were it is economically marginal at best. Unemployment is very high in Egypt and the gov can barely feed the 70 million and growing Egyptians. If you followed there stories they all went to see relatives or distant village acquaintances to help them find work. Well after there arrests we’ve missed put on 11 cheep dishwashers or landscapers. That’s the extent of it.

  • well now, for comment #197

    why don’t you attempt to develop, or even create, your own abilities at Critique…

    this would involve Logical analysis and at least attempting to prove your Thesis

    you’ve done none of those, merely thrown mud

    let me use your own poorly constucted Comment…

    *Take the medication(s) you have been subscribed*
    “physician” heal thyself… this is a non-sequitor ad hominem attack with no basis ni objective reality, but is indicative of the Commenter’s own state of Opinion… nothing more, and can be used as an indicative that the writer should simply be Ignored

    *Sharpen your critical thinking (base your opinions on facts)*

    see above…same thing applies… NO “critical thinking” is being displayed by this commenter

    *Read more about Islam and the Middle East. *Hint: read up on the difference between Twelver Shi’ism and Sunni Islam.*

    good Advice on the surface, but Jet DOES show his Research in the commentary, and asks for more Info… NONE is provided by this commenter one way or the other… if said commenter has superior Knowledge of the material in Question.. he/she does NOT share any of it to either refute or re-enforce the Points made in the Article or commentary

    this has been a public servie announcement from yer gonzo

    we now return you to your regularily shceduled programming


  • Someone that can count

    “I hope I’m wrong…”

    Well I can safely say that you are wrong!

    I never read anything so empty of facts and so full of false assumptions and broad peculations. You are connecting dots that only exist in your very developed imagination.
    1) Take the medication(s) you have been subscribed
    2) Sharpen your critical thinking (base your opinions on facts)
    3) Read more about Islam and the Middle East. *Hint: read up on the difference between Twelver Shi’ism and Sunni Islam.

  • Shabbat shalom Ruvy-You never cease to amaze me with the amount of knowledge you have. Thanks for the education.


  • Ruvy in Jerusalem


    To drive home a point here. The boys at Al Qaeda are a rebel sect in Islam who do not care if they kill other Moslems, so long as the Moslems are not Wahhabi. The Wahhabi theological concept is simple. If you are not a Wahhabi, you are dead or deserve to be.

    Sheikh Nasrqallah is not a Wahhabi. Neither is Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. They are Shia Moslems. They will not attack Jerusalem if they think it endagers the Temple Mount.

    They may attack Modi’in, Bet Shemesh, Tel Aviv – but if they think the missile they send will damage the Temple Mount, they will not send it.

    They may attack western Jerusalem – but only if that attack, in their view, does not endanger the Temple Mount.

    The boys in Al Qaeda do not care.

    Bu the fellow with the finger on the button is not in Al Qaeda, he is a Shia Moslem who wants to see the Mahdi emerge victorious in Al Quds from the Temple Mount!.

  • That bears repeating Gazelle, thank you. It’s simple and to the point. Just don’t leat Dean read it…

    You know how sensitive he is.

    I don’t just hope I’m wrong, I pray I’m wrong.

    Tantum meus sententia

  • gazelle

    “I hope I am wrong”


  • Now…. having settled that for the moment, does anyone have anything intelligent to say regarding the article???

  • On and on and on and on and on and on. I love a good contribution to a conversation. I bet you’re fun at parties

  • Dean

    I have nothing intelligent to say on the subject because it has already been said, i.e., “6 days to go and I pray I’m wrong…”

    Now how could amyone say something intelligent after that?

  • Dean

    I think it has hit bottom.

  • If it has it’s only because of your useless contribution to this string. You obviously have nothing intelligent to say on the subject, or you would’ve said it by now.

    I feel sorry for you.

    You hetrosexuals are all alike…

  • Dean

    Now it’s dropped further.

  • According to you… if you can write better, lets see it, otherwise contribute to the conversation or get lost. See comment 171

  • Dean

    This has dropped below the level of Looney Tunes and Merry Melodies.

  • Brad, that’s what’s saved Jerusalem so far, but think about it, what better way to get notoriety?

    Jerusalem is a disputed site, nowhere is it written that the city is actually the site of the Prohpet’s assention.

    the mosque was built on the site to pull the faithful from Mecca as a power play.

    Thus just as bin Laden went after the World Trade center, why wouldn’t he go after the mosque?

  • nugget

    That’s what I wanted to ask, Brad, but I didn’t want to sound stupid if I missed a big point or something.

  • Why would a Muslim bomb Al Quds (J’lem)? That’s where the Al Aqsa mosque is!

  • Oh so very true Dean, I accept your opinion

  • Dean

    The value of a contribution is in the eye of the beholder. Those who don’t like a contribution don’t have to behold.

    BTW, what does ‘acception’ mean?

  • For you an acception could be made, if you have something valuable to contribute…

  • nugget

    how come smart-ass comments aren’t allowed?

  • Dean

    “6 days to go and I pray I’m wrong…”

  • What exactly has any of your smart-ass comments had to do with the article at hand?

  • Dean

    I hate to see a grown person cry.

  • Dave, it’s not his viewpoint which IS welcome, it’s the repetitiveness of it. thanks Jet

  • Dean

    How many would it take?

  • To drop a bunker buster, you’ve got to know where to drop it.

    Not if you drop enough of them.


  • Dean 170-all comments and viewpoints are welcome, however smart-ass remarks for the sake of being one are not.

  • Dean

    “6 days to go and I pray I’m wrong…”

    This sounds like something David Koresh or Jim Jones would have said.

  • Dean

    “considering how many time they’ve occupied the territory, they know where the bunkers are.”

    Where did that come from?

    “Hezbollah trained for 6 years, dug deep bunkers. They’ve been preparing for this battle for six years, ever since Israel’s withdrawal from south Lebanon,” a senior Israeli officer said.”

    — THE WASHINGTON TIMES, July 21, 2006

  • 6 days to go and I pray I’m wrong…

  • Dean, considering how many time they’ve occupied the territory, they know where the bunkers are.

  • Of course you’ve missed the point completely. War kills women and children.

    As for whether it’s a war or not, the same argument was fought over whether Korea was a war or a police action.

    People died, bombs flew, things were destroyed-it was a war

  • Dean

    And let’s stop fighting WWII.

    Lebanon was not a world war. It was a skirmish over the release of two soldiers.

  • Dean

    To drop a bunker buster, you’ve got to know where to drop it.

  • You know during world war 1 & 2 no one was screaming about “Innocent German Women and Children”. it was war, and war kills people.

    Saddam proved that nicely when he started putting families of women and Children intentionally near military targets so he could scream about his innocent martyrs.

    When the Holocost is mentioned we say Jews were killed, not innocent Jewish Women and Children were slaughtered.

    What’s good for one is good for everyone.

    don’t wage a war if you can’t pay the consequences.

  • Dean

    To drop a bunker buster, you’ve got to know where to drop it.

    Judging by the number of “targeted” hits that missed their targets and hit women and children…

  • Thanks Ruvy, I was going to tackle that, but I was hoping you’d beat me to it. I agree completely.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Nancy asks,

    “One question, Ruvy: why didn’t Olmert just order the southern part of Lebanon to be nuked clean once he learned Hezbollah was operating from deep bunkers, or why didn’t he order US bunker busters used (I doubt he doesn’t have any, courtesy of the US), especially if this fight was/is as vital as he kept claiming it was/is?”

    That’s two questions, Nancy and in this case, though it only appears to you to be two questions, it really is three. At a thousand shekels per question…

    Seriously, to answer you.

    1. Why didn’t Olmert nuke south Lebanon? My dear, Metulla, Tveria, Ma’alot, Qiryat Shmoneh are all just south of south lebanon. If Olmert was so stupid to do such a thing, the mushroom cloud would be visible from Haifa (not to mention from here) and the firestorm would be coming south as well as east…The water in Kinneret (Lake Tiberias) – which provides drinking water for the whole country – would all be glowing with radiation.

    Even Olmert is not that stupid.

    2. Why didn’t Olmert order bunker busters? It’s not his job! That leads to the more important question…

    3. Why didn’t Halutz (the IDF Chief of Staff) order bunker busters when offered by the US? The answer? Sheer Arrogance!!

  • Dean 156-…but you can’t fool mom!

  • Dean 156 thanks for the research my friend…

  • Nancy 155-My question is, where are the moderate elements in Islam, persons of authority, to stand up to these nutcases?

    Nancy, the person in authority are the nutcases.

    See comments 120-122


  • Dean

    Propaganda and conspiracy nuts come in different forms.

    “Yossef Bodansky, executive director of the Congressional Task Force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare, pieced together intelligence data strongly indicating that Islamic veterans of the 1979-89 Afghan war with the Soviet Union, who trained under Osama bin Laden, were responsible for the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center and the Oklahoma federal building.”


    In Bodansky’s writings, there is little mention of Osama bin Laden before 9/11/01.

    Bodansky then wrote a book on bin Laden after September 11, 2001.

    A day late and a dollar short maketh not an expert.

    You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people…

  • Nancy

    My question is, where are the moderate elements in Islam, persons of authority, to stand up to these nutcases & say ‘The Imam has no clothes – this is horseshit!’? There seem to be none. And if there are any such, the nutcases undoubtedly will make a beeline to kill such a person. I have to conclude muslims in general are insane, and islam a cult of insanity. I also note that despite their claims of having reined in the Wahabi extremist imams who used to be government-supported, Saudi Arabia still seems to have plenty of them still preaching & teaching their extremist hate in the mosques & schools. I think the Saudi royals are afraid to really clamp down on them, because the people in general support them, and the royals are already treading on thin ice as far as public support goes. Which all gets back to, you’ve got a general population of half-wit religious fanatics, none of whom can think for themselves, who are totally subject to the rantings of these clerical maniacs, and at their command – as persons like bin Laden are well aware.

    Aside from simply wiping out entire populations of the middle east, I can’t see any kind of solution except to hope that perhaps bird flu will strike with a vengence there, which is unlikely as few of them live with poultry like the asians do.

  • Thank you Ruvy, I read either this or a variation of it. I appreciate you going to the trouble, I hope it clears up why I’m so concerned. What did you think of my suggestion about the Israeli fireworks that night to scare the piss out of them…

    By the way say “Hi” to the wife for me.

    Carus deus, quis have ego commissio?

    PS sorry I missed this. I’m juggling comments from 4 current articles at the same time.

  • You’ve got to admit with the huge moslem population in Jerusalem, it’d be great, especially if they can find the really bright ones that don’t make all that much noise, and could do them in sequence over a period of a minute or so.

    Carus deus, quis have ego commissio?

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Jet, this si the article in the WSJ thst started all the fuss over the date of Mohamed’s night journey, 27 Rajab 1427. Received of Allan Mallenbaum.

    AUGUST 22

    – Bernard Lewis* Wall Street Journal Aug 08, 2006

    During the Cold War, both sides possessed weapons of mass destruction, but neither side used them, deterred by what was known as MAD, mutual assured destruction. Similar constraints have no doubt prevented their use in the confrontation between India and Pakistan. In our own day a new such confrontation seems to be looming between a nuclear-armed Iran and its favorite enemies, named by the late Ayatollah Khomeini as the Great Satan and the Little Satan, i.e., the United States and Israel. Against the U.S. the bombs might be delivered by terrorists, a method having the advantage of bearing no return address. Against Israel, the target is small enough to attempt obliteration by direct bombardment.

    It seems increasingly likely that the Iranians either have or very soon will have nuclear weapons at their disposal, thanks to their own researches (which began some 15 years ago), to some of their obliging neighbors, and to the ever-helpful rulers of North Korea. The language used by Iranian President Ahmadinejad would seem to indicate the reality and indeed the imminence of this threat. Would the same constraints, the same fear of mutual assured destruction, restrain a nuclear-armed Iran from using such weapons against the U.S. or against Israel?

    There is a radical difference between the Islamic Republic of Iran and other governments with nuclear weapons. This difference is expressed in what can only be described as the apocalyptic worldview of Iran’s present rulers. This worldview and expectation, vividly expressed in speeches, articles and even schoolbooks, clearly shape the perception and therefore the policies of Ahmadinejad and his disciples.

    Even in the past it was clear that terrorists claiming to act in the name of Islam had no compunction in slaughtering large numbers of fellow Muslims. A notable example was the blowing up of the American embassies in East Africa in 1998, killing a few American diplomats and a much larger number of uninvolved local passersby, many of them Muslims. There were numerous other Muslim victims in the various terrorist attacks of the last 15 years.

    The phrase “Allah will know his own” is usually used to explain such apparently callous unconcern; it means that while infidel, i.e., non-Muslim, victims will go to a well-deserved punishment in hell, Muslims will be sent straight to heaven. According to this view, the bombers are in fact doing their Muslim victims a favor by giving them a quick pass to heaven and its delights — the rewards without the struggles of martyrdom. School textbooks tell young Iranians to be ready for a final global struggle against an evil enemy, named as the U.S., and to prepare themselves for the privileges of martyrdom.

    A direct attack on the U.S., though possible, is less likely in the immediate future. Israel is a nearer and easier target, and Mr. Ahmadinejad has given indication of thinking along these lines. The Western observer would immediately think of two possible deterrents. The first is that an attack that wipes out Israel would almost certainly wipe out the Palestinians too. The second is that such an attack would evoke a devastating reprisal from Israel against Iran, since one may surely assume that the Israelis have made the necessary arrangements for a counterstrike even after a nuclear holocaust in Israel.

    The first of these possible deterrents might well be of concern to the Palestinians — but not apparently to their fanatical champions in the Iranian government. The second deterrent — the threat of direct retaliation on Iran — is, as noted, already weakened by the suicide or martyrdom complex that plagues parts of the Islamic world today, without parallel in other religions, or for that matter in the Islamic past. This complex has become even more important at the present day, because of this new apocalyptic vision.

    In Islam, as in Judaism and Christianity, there are certain beliefs concerning the cosmic struggle at the end of time — Gog and Magog, anti-Christ, Armageddon, and for Shiite Muslims, the long awaited return of the Hidden Imam, ending in the final victory of the forces of good over evil, however these may be defined. Mr. Ahmadinejad and his followers clearly believe that this time is now, and that the terminal struggle has already begun and is indeed well advanced. It may even have a date, indicated by several references by the Iranian president to giving his final answer to the U.S. about nuclear development by Aug. 22. This was at first reported as “by the end of August,” but Mr. Ahmadinejad’s statement was more precise.

    What is the significance of Aug. 22? This year, Aug. 22 corresponds, in the Islamic calendar, to the 27th day of the month of Rajab of the year 1427. This, by tradition, is the night when many Muslims commemorate the night flight of the prophet Muhammad on the winged horse Buraq, first to “the farthest mosque,” usually identified with Jerusalem, and then to heaven and back ( c.f., Koran XVII.1). This might well be deemed an appropriate date for the apocalyptic ending of Israel and if necessary of the world. It is far from certain that Mr. Ahmadinejad plans any such cataclysmic events precisely for Aug. 22. But it would be wise to bear the possibility in mind.

    A passage from the Ayatollah Khomeini, quoted in an 11th-grade Iranian schoolbook, is revealing. “I am decisively announcing to the whole world that if the world-devourers [i.e., the infidel powers] wish to stand against our religion, we will stand against their whole world and will not cease until the annihilation of all them. Either we all become free, or we will go to the greater freedom which is martyrdom. Either we shake one another’s hands in joy at the victory of Islam in the world, or all of us will turn to eternal life and martyrdom. In both cases, victory and success are ours.”

    In this context, mutual assured destruction, the deterrent that worked so well during the Cold War, would have no meaning. At the end of time, there will be general destruction anyway. What will matter will be the final destination of the dead — hell for the infidels, and heaven for the believers. For people with this mindset, MAD is not a constraint; it is an inducement.

    How then can one confront such an enemy, with such a view of life and death? Some immediate precautions are obviously possible and necessary. In the long term, it would seem that the best, perhaps the only hope is to appeal to those Muslims, Iranians, Arabs and others who do not share these apocalyptic perceptions and aspirations, and feel as much threatened, indeed even more threatened, than we are. There must be many such, probably even a majority in the lands of Islam. Now is the time for them to save their countries, their societies and their religion from the madness of MAD.

    = = = = = = = = = = =
    * Mr. Lewis, professor emeritus at Princeton, is the author, most recently, of “From Babel to Dragomans: Interpreting the Middle East” (Oxford University Press, 2004).

  • Nancy

    I do think the idea of setting off lots of fireworks that night & scaring the bejesus (so to speak) out of all the muslims is pretty funny. Warped, but funny.

  • Nancy, my gut feeling is that Ahmadinejad wants to historically glorify himself instead of bin Laden, so if I’m right it’ll happen in a week, if I’m wrong it’ll happen on September 11th.

    Either that, or they’ll all sit back and laugh, knowing half our country is sitting on pins an needles waiting for something terrible to happen, and know they accomplished their goal with fear alone and not had to lift a finger or spend a dime doing it.

    Carus deus, quis have ego commissio?

  • Nancy

    I’d have to agree with JOM ‘way back, for a change: Hezbollah got all those rockets & missiles into Lebanon without the CIA or Israel detecting it; now Israel has ‘lost’ the war & there’s a cease-fire, and Olmert is in Trouble with a capital T, as they say. I think Iran has more than they’ve let on. Frankly, at this point I wouldn’t trust US intelligence (usual comment on this being a classic oxymoron) to know much solid about what anyone in that region has, since they’ve dropped the ball so often in just about every other case involving mid eastern intel.

    Jet, not to worry, if the NSA picks on anyone, it’ll be me; I’ve always been a LOT more open about my despising Bush & wishing him evil than any of the rest of you.

    One question, Ruvy: why didn’t Olmert just order the southern part of Lebanon to be nuked clean once he learned Hezbollah was operating from deep bunkers, or why didn’t he order US bunker busters used (I doubt he doesn’t have any, courtesy of the US), especially if this fight was/is as vital as he kept claiming it was/is?

  • If any of you missed the CBS interview with Ahmadinejad, they’re running it on C-span. The man has the charm and smile of another Hitler.

    7 days until we find out…

    Carus deus, quis have ego commissio?

  • I just watched the unedited version of the CBS interview with Ahmadinejad, and I’ve gotta tell you, when he talked about the date that Iran will respond, It’s renewed my fears, especially now that the world has been lulled into a state of complacency with affairs in the region.

    We’ve been distracted by the Airline plot and now the peace treaty,

    I don’t think now’s a good time to let our gaurd down.

    To strike on 911 this year would glorify bin Laden, and I think he wants to glorify himself, which makes Aug 21-22 a more tempting date.

  • Anyway, in 8 days I guess we’ll all know one way or another…

  • Ruvy-143-Ruvy if the NSA or the Secret Service is monitoring this, you could get us both in a lot of trouble with subtle threats against the president.

  • They said at his latest physical that he’d gained 5 pounds…

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Jet re Comment #139; pray that Bush retains a good healthy appetite. The vultures and beasts of the field deserve a good meal, too.

  • Steve 141-Probably because the Religious Right has no use for Jews. “The enemy of your enemy is your friend”

    Carus deus, quis have ego commissio?

    PS Steve what’s your take on 120-121-122?

  • steve

    ruvy…why is it that the majority of jews sway heavily to the left?

  • Maybe he’ll get run over by Ezekiel’s Wheel Ruvy

  • Okay, but what do the rest of us do, watching helplessly on the sidelines?

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Don’t worry, Clavos. I didn’t think you were.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Oh, Bush senses something alright. G-d is messing with his pea brain and slowly setting him up for the moment of coming here to become enriched birdfood to feed vultures and the beasts of the field… (Ezekiel 39)

  • Clavos


    RE your 129: Perhaps I didn’t phrase my question well; I was asking for information, not challenging nor asserting a point of view.

    If I ask a question to challenge, you’ll know-I’m not subtle.

  • I don’t know, I still think he believes his own version of the “end of days” is coming and he’s preparing for it in his own way…

    Of course I’ve been wrong before

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Because he lives in a Christian country. If he was a Jewish politician here, he would be kissing rabbis’ rings and asking for blessings and going to all kinds of holy sites – while remaining secular.

  • Oh, that explains part of it, but if the churches don’t mean anything to Bush anymore why all the christian rhetoric?

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    The CFR represents the oil and banking establishment in the States. The Bush’s are at the oil end of the group.

    Christian churches don’t mean anything to Bush – not anymore.

  • Ruvy-See comment 112

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    That was in answer to comment #104, by the way.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Clavos, Jet,

    Do you really think that George W. Bush is running the US? The man is stupid!! He needs someone to help him hold his pecker straight so he doesn’t piss the wrong way! How many business did he run into the ground?

    The boys at the CFR, who have much more smarts than Bush, does are telling himn how to run this country. It is not an issue of the “office,” this is an informal chain of command where Bush is probably more like a coordinator and conciliator.

  • Ruvy, I can’t thank you enough for the education. I’m glad you’re still okay.

    Blessings my Friend

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem


    I went to the Sharon article referenced by Clavos (#124) and read it through.

    In a general sense, if you roll history back five or six centuries and insert “Christianity” where you see “Islam,” you would have the same world-view expressed and summarized by Professor Sharon. Both Christianity and Islam are religions that contain within them the seeds of world conflict and domination. The difference is that the Universal Roman Church was weakened by the Reformation and a different concept of state versus religious power emerged in Christendom. This never happened in the Islamic world.

    But taking the Sharon article on its face, there are some important points missing.

    The first is that Islam recognizes OUR suzerainty of the Land of Israel. The second is that while there is much that is condemnatory of Jews in the Qur’an, most of it comes with the condition that the Jews condemned are not following their faith.

    The final point is that Islam recognizes that in the End of Days, Israel will return to its homeland.

    Prof. Sharon did not bother to make distinctions in his article between the different branches of Islam and how these different branches view non-Moslems. He did not even mention that the Wahhabis, who control Islam now, have historically been rebels against the faith. He did not distinguish between Shia and Sunni or anything else.

    Bottom line, the Sharon article misses so much that it is like a little education – dangerous.

    Havng said all that, the fact still stands that the Shia have a more strongly messianic world-view than do the Sunni Moslems. And the chief enemy that Israel faces appears at the moment to be Shia Islam – the HizbAllah is an Iranian creation to destroy Israel – part of what Capt. Liddell Hart would call “grand strategy,” similar to (but not exactly trhe same as) what Epaminondas did in liberating the Messenian Helots of Sparta in the Theban wars agianst Sparta.

    A grand strategy is being pursued by Iran to accomplish its stated goals, one of which is the destruction of this country. The Iranians are not Al Qaeda or Wahhabi and should be confused with them. They have an entirely different agenda. One, the religious one of Ahmadinejad, is the bringing to power of the Mahdi. The second, a secular one, is the re-creation of the Persian Empire.

    A good “dugmá” or example of what the future may hold can be found in part in the closing pages of the novel, “The Crash of ’79”. Naturally, you need to make adjustments for the characters changing, but the bottom line is that an attempt to re-create the Persian Empire is definitely in the cards.

  • Ruvy, is 120-121-122 an exageration or fact. I’d really like your perspective on it.


  • A race of religious zealots trained from birth that they’ll go to hell first and only be released by their children killing a Jew or a Christian so that they can be released from hell.

    the concempt is so frightening. They know that by them killing innocent people they’ll end up in hell, but also believe they’ll be released by a soul of someone else taking their place.

    thousands of years they’ve believed that, they’ve taught their children that, they believe that the only state of grace for their race is war, and that no peace can last more than 10 years.

    How do you break that cycle?

  • Clavos

    Jet, I don’t know enough about Islam to give you an informed opinion on those posts, but I can tell you that my research showed that all of them are part of a longer thesis written by Professor Moshe Sharon of Hebrew University.

    I found many references to his authorship on various sites via Google.

  • Any thoughts on 120-121-122 on Islamic thinking? Is the man right about this or is his article slanted?

  • A reminder from #95

    I’m speaking now as a historian. I try to understand how Islam sees the end of days. In the end of days, Islam sees a world that is totally Moslem, completely Moslem under the rule of Islam. Complete and final victory. Christians will not exist, because according to many Islamic traditions, the Moslems who are in hell will have to be replaced by somebody and they’ll be replaced by the Christians.


    Peace in Islam can exist only within the Islamic world; peace can only be between Moslem and Moslem. With the non-Moslem world or non-Moslem opponents, there can be only one solution –– a cease fire until Moslems can gain more power. It is an eternal war until the end of days. Peace can only come when the Islamic side wins.

    The two civilizations can only have periods of cease-fires. And this idea of cease-fire is based on a very important historical precedent, which, incidentally, Yasser Arafat referred to when he spoke in Johannesburg after he signed the Oslo agreement with Israel. Let me remind you that the document speaks of peace ––you wouldn’t believe what you are reading! You would think that you were reading some science-fiction piece. I mean when you read it, you can’t believe that this was signed by Israelis who are actually acquainted with Islamic policies and civilization.

    A few weeks after the Oslo agreement was signed, Arafat went to Johannesburg, and in a mosque there he made a speech in which he apologized, saying, “Do you think I signed something with the Jews which is contrary to the rules of Islam?” (I have obtained a copy of Arafat’s recorded speech so I heard it from his own mouth.) Arafat continued, “That’s not so. I’m doing exactly what the prophet Mohammed did.”

    Whatever the prophet is supposed to have done becomes a precedent. What Arafat was saying was, “Remember the story of Hodaybiya.” The prophet had made an agreement there with the tribe of Kuraish for 10 years. But then he trained 10,000 soldiers and within two years marched on their city of Mecca. He, of course, found some kind of pretext.

    Thus, in Islamic jurisdiction, it became a legal precedent which states that you are only allowed to make peace for a maximum of 10 years. Secondly, at the first instance that you are able, you must renew the jihad [thus breaking the “peace” agreement].

    In Israel, it has taken over 50 years in this country for our people to understand that they cannot speak about [permanent] peace with Moslems. It will take another 50 years for the western world to understand that they have got a state of war with the Islamic civilization that is virile and strong. This should be understood: When we talk about war and peace, we are not talking in Belgium, French, English, or German terms. We are talking about war and peace in Islamic terms.

    The Agenda of Islam
    Endtime Issues No. 84
    9 May 2002

    Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D.
    Retired Professor of Theology, Andrews University


    This civilization created one very important, fundamental rule about territory. Any territory that comes under Islamic rule cannot be de-Islamized. Even if at one time or another, the [non-Moslem] enemy takes over the territory that was under Islamic rule, it is considered to be perpetually Islamic. This is why whenever you hear about the Arab/Israeli conflict, you hear: territory, territory, territory. There are other aspects to the conflict, but territory is highly important.

    The Christian civilization has not only been seen as a religious opponent, but as a dam stopping Islam from achieving its final goal for which it was created.

    Islam was created to be the army of God, the army of Allah. Every single Moslem is a soldier in this army. Every single Moslem that dies in fighting for the spread of Islam is a shaheed (martyr) no matter how he dies, because – and this is very important –– this is an eternal word between the two civilizations. It’s not a war that stops. This was is there because it was created by Allah. Islam must be the ruler. This is a war that will not end.

    The Agenda of Islam
    Endtime Issues No. 84
    9 May 2002

    Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D.
    Retired Professor of Theology, Andrews University

  • Allen, I hope you’re right. I hope you’re right.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    “Nothing out of the ordinary is gonna happen on the 22nd….”

    Allen, come back on 23 August and tell me that. Until then we’ll wait.

  • Nothing out of the ordinary is gonna happen on the 22nd. Wars and rumors of wars have been going on for centuries. Israel can defend herself, an the U.S. will back her up.

  • Clavos, I guess I should’ve read one ahead before I posted the last comment-thank you

  • Les 106 HizbAllah is sponsored by Iran and Syria-Like Bush-You are who pays for you.

  • Les 105-yes, but right now I’m concentrating on the possible threat on August 21/22. By the way I think the discrepency in the dates could be attributed to for 8 hours or so it’d be August 22 there but still be Aug 21 here.

  • Clavos-Islamic belief is that the world (ie the middle east) must not stay in a state of peace for more than 10 years.

    A constant river of Jewish and Christian souls must keep flowing to Hell in order to replace the Muslims that are there.

  • Clavos 104-“What did you mean here; i.e. who’s high enough on the food chain to give Bush orders?”

    Though the Muslims what the destruction of Israel, the Religious right of this country consider it sacred ground and an attack on Syria would surely lead to the destruction of Israel.

    Bush has two higher authorities
    Big oil
    Southern Baptist Conference voters

    In my opinion

  • Ruvy 103-I agree completely, Israel and Lebanon are mere pawns in this.

  • Gonzo 97-I though I was the only one who knew about his “I dream of Jeanie” pants!

  • Ruvy, maybe the Jews themselves of Jerusalem aught to set off fireworks on the night of the 22nd just to scare the piss out of the Muslims?

    Carus deus, quis have ego commissio?

  • My take on #95 is that their childred are taught from birth that they will go to hell, and the only way out of it is that someone living has to kill a Jew or a Christian to take their place in order for them to escape and go to heaven.

    The entire religion is based on killing as many people as possible in order to save the souls of their dead!

    In another section the article talks about how a peace must never last more than 10 years.

  • Clavos

    Iran has no army in Lebanon. Hezbollah is Lebanese.

    True in the strictest sense. But Hezbollah is Iran’s proxy and is supported and equipped by Ahmadinejad.

  • Les Slater

    Ruvy #103

    “Iran has an army in Lebanon called HizbAllah”

    Iran has no army in Lebanon. Hezbollah is Lebanese. Iran may have advisors, or otherwize support Hezbollah, but it is not their army.


  • Les Slater

    Jet #101

    It seems somewhat one-sided.

    Isn’t the Ezekiel 39 thing that Ruvy is talking about the flip side of this?


  • Clavos

    Interesting analysis, Ruvy.


    Now, someone high up on the food chain gave Bush the ORDER that Syria was not to be touched beause Olmert has not touched Syria.

    What did you mean here; i.e. who’s high enough on the food chain to give Bush orders? (pardon my naiveté)

    Another question:

    What do you see happening next; since what you’re describing appears to be somewhat of a standoff, unless escalated exponentially?

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    HizbAllah has rockets, as Gonzo says. IRAN has missiles. So does Syria. Syia has about 1,000 of them. In the case of Syria, the missiles come with North Korean techs to launch them.

    Now, someone high up on the food chain gave Bush the ORDER that Syria was not to be touched beause Olmert has not touched Syria.

    And the alliance, as best as I can see it, and I can see pretty damned good with my specs on, is that Iran has an army in Lebanon called HizbAllah, Syria has an army in Syria, and Iran has a missile force with which to attack Israel, Europe and possibly the United States.

    We have a missile force too, but we’re on the other side of the “alliance.” In fact, we’re just the messenger boys in this mess, as are the Lebanese.

  • 11 days until I can breath a sigh of relief and thank goodness I was wrong…. until then keep your head low Ruvy

  • Les, what are your thoughts on #95?

    Carus deus, quis have ego commissio?

  • Les Slater

    Jet #94

    “Les there’s no need to get hysterical! Geez read comment 87”

    My comments are generally referring to before #48 where gonzo threw water on the central prop of your theme.


  • Dave, I you give birth to the Messiah, does that mean your sister would be the Auntie Christ?

  • I’m still researching the end of days. Scary stuff what I found so far isn’t it?

    Dave, we’re going to have to have a talk about those fantasies of yours…this has been a recorded announcement…

  • i don’t know which Depresses me more…

    the Thoughts portrayed in Jet’s #95 showing the various sects Visions of the End…

    or the Vision of Dave wearing the pink I-Dream-of-Jeannie pants, gathered at the ankles, howling in the pangs of giving birth…

    fucking Nightmares, i tell yas…


  • Rest assured, I’m wearing pants gathered at the ankle just in case I get to give birth to the messiah.


  • The Agenda of Islam
    Endtime Issues No. 84
    9 May 2002

    Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D.
    Retired Professor of Theology, Andrews University


    It is highly important to understand how a civilization sees the end of days. In Christianity and in Judaism, we know exactly what is the vision of the end of days.

    In Judaism, it is going to be as in Isaiah –– peace between nations, not just one nation, but between all nations. People will not have any more need for weapons and nature will be changed –– a beautiful end of days and the kingdom of God on earth.

    Christianity goes as far as Revelation to see a day that Satan himself is obliterated. There are no more powers of evil. That’s the vision.

    I’m speaking now as a historian. I try to understand how Islam sees the end of days. In the end of days, Islam sees a world that is totally Moslem, completely Moslem under the rule of Islam. Complete and final victory. Christians will not exist, because according to many Islamic traditions, the Moslems who are in hell will have to be replaced by somebody and they’ll be replaced by the Christians.

    The Jews will no longer exist, because before the coming of the end of days, there is going to be a war against the Jews where all Jews should be killed. I’m quoting now from the heart of Islamic tradition, from the books that are read by every child in school. The Jews will all be killed. They’ll be running away and they’ll be hiding behind trees and rocks, and on that day Allah will give mouths to the rocks and trees and they will say, “Oh Moslem come here, there is a Jew behind me, kill him.” Without this, the end of days cannot come. This is a fundamental of Islam.

    That explains a lot…

  • Les there’s no need to get hysterical! Geez read comment 87

  • Les Slater

    Gonzo #91,

    There is something I will add. The hysteria running through much of the thread was that Iran was planning a nuclear attack on Israel on or about August 22 of this year. That’s about 11 days from now. Will this thread still be going or will that be forgotten by then?

    Your replies about Iran’s capabilities, the logic of the situation, etc. undercut the whole fabric of the speculation.

    Of course we have some politicians caught up in a holy war stance but to add an unlikely event to spin a position is not much more than hysteria.


  • You’re hired Gonzo, when can you start?

  • whew…ok… let me hit the high Notes..

    nugget in #80 – i’ve been an electronic technician for about 25 years now… off and on, i learned the skill 25 years ago, and have worked in many fields, troubleshooting and repairing to the component level on anything from a 1950’s relay driven pinball machine to state of the art portable transmitters/recievers that are utilized for locating underground fiber optic lines by th telecom industry, with a lot in between…. fixxing TV’s in homes… any kind of arcade equipment… none of that is counting my military equipment list

    Les- as always…no problem, you know me by now… if i see something that i think i can add to, or make more clear…or poke Fun at… then i tend to hop in and light off

    but please… if you have Thoughts to add, set them down.. i’m certain there’s somethings you have in your skull that i ain’t spewed on the screen….

    that about cover it for now?


  • And when did “liblubbers” like myself start?



  • Well, in that case I’m glad you’re still out. When did the right wing stop liking Glen Beck?

  • Les Slater

    Jet #85,

    “Les, you’ve made a thoughtful and worthwhile contribution to this conversation…”

    Well, I didn’t mean to. I was contemplating having to do so, but then along came Gonzo, who made many of the points I was considering.

    Hysteria seems to be getting more common these days. I certainly saw it from the left when Bush was running for second term. If what some of them were predicting came true many of us would be in jail right now.


  • Well thank you Peter-much appreciated. On August 23 I hope to be saying I was wrong-I’ll be happy to be saying I was wrong.

    That’s how I learn stuff, I write about stuff I barely know anything about and take notes on what I’m wrong about.

    Carus deus, quis have ego commissio?

  • Jet,,
    Thanks for an interesting article which brought up a lot of theological detail I know nothing about.

    Being a failed catholic (I didn’t fail, they did) I stopped swollowing all of their childish, contradictory bullshit and stopped paying attention to religion entirely. Big mistake on my part.

    I never believed their bullshit so I never bothered to at least explore other beliefs, never thinking them to have any pertinence. They may not be right but they surely are pertinent.

    Thanks for sparking an interest!

  • Well, thank you for the compliment Les, you’ve made a thoughtful and worthwhile contribution to this conversation…

  • Les Slater


    Thanks for the input. Before you arrived there was nothing but hysteria in this thread.

    There are facits in what is happening in Israel / Lebanon that are quite humiliating to Israel. Some of this is what is accountable for the hysteria.

    Not only is there no end of the world in sight but too much coin is given those that peddle these views.


  • …and your point is?

  • MCH

    Re #46;
    “If you had the opportunity to work from home, you would too. I have that chance in maybe a year, and you’d bet your bottom dollar that I’m trying to make that happen.”

    But, but…we’ll never win the war if most of those who claim to “support” it never leave home…will we?

  • That’s an excelent question Nugget, because I don’t think I’ve found a subject he’s not fluent in.

  • nugget

    Gonzo: what kind of tech are you, exactly?

  • I wish I knew where I heard about the Islamic belief that souls can’t reach heaven until everyone on the planet is dead.

    After dinner, I’ll have to get busy and google it.

  • Mike see comment 61

  • mike

    iran is not likely to attack israel directly, what is the gain? mullahs grew rich from their current lifestyles, why would they jeopardize it with war, the policy of brinkmanship without direct action is far more profitable for them

  • …then again we’d wind up paying Haliburton $400 million for the equipment-so never mind…

  • Hmmm interesting idea, then soldiers could detect them with night vision goggles by their glowing fingers!!!!

    An easy way to tell who’s a terrorist and who’s an innocent bystander!!!!

    Laughing laughing laughing.
    I needed that…

  • Gonzo 73-Absolutely yes that does help. Thank you my friend.

    Carus deus, quis have ego commissio?

  • heh..that stuff is usually either phosphorus based, or radium (low yeild isotope, not dangerous unless swallowed)

    but a Fun thought… thousands of fanatics scraping the numbers off their watches…

    but i digress…


  • This is meant as a Joke up front Gonzo-so you know to laugh. what about scraping the luminous stuff off all those glow in the dark watches and alarm clocks?

    Carus deus, quis have ego commissio?

  • i shoudl elucidate here…

    part of the problem with your Scenario here Jet is detonation…

    missiles can be detonated whenever those firing it chooses (depending on the missile system) but rockets are impact detonated and thus woudl need heavy modification to detonate mid-air

    hence my skepticism, since things like a Katuysha cannot be modified for such

    it’s a weight thing, as i said previously…physics apply

    hope that helps


  • besides the yellowcake part, it could be done with impeccable planning, full communication, and the capabilities that are available to them

    still pretty unlikely, but not outside the realm of the Possible


  • Fair enough, how about fireworks/flares like the kind search and rescue uses being shot into the sky over Jerusalem from the ground from several locations in a long continuous sequence preprogrammed and then left to go off that would light up the sky-each laced with enough yellowcake to rain radioactive particles on the population?

    Carus deus, quis have ego commissio?

  • Gonzo 65-I always learn from you, that’s why I look forward to you commenting on each new string.

    Thank you my friend

  • Jet…

    most of the rockets being used are quite small, and can be fit and fired from a pick up truck

    there are some larger ones that need a special launcher (you see them on the news footage on the backs of 18 wheelers), these are the long range rockets being spoken of, and woudl be the smallest possible launching platforms for any kind of missile


  • JOM 64-There’s still that pesky problem of satelite detection. You know-scratch that-how the hell did HezbullshitLa get all those rockets and the CIA didn’t know about it?

    Never mind, I think I just answered my own question…

    Carus deus, quis have ego commissio?

  • Gonzo, you mean that Hezbullshitlah has been pointing and praying all this time???

    Oy vay!

  • Jet, no worries..i’m not pissed at all, just discussing…

    some definitions for ya…

    rocket – no guidance system, point and pray aiming

    missile – guidance system, depending on level of tech, goes where you want it to, and can make course corrections via steering of rocket via guidance system and controls

    Hizb’allah has NO missiles, they do have rockets

    missiles are fucking BIG, not easily moved and very delicate… now, it IS possible that the former USSR sold some off… highly doubtful no one noticed, most likely they woudl have needed to be dissassembled, then rebuilt… NOT something the vast majority of people in the world could do, even a skilled tech woudl have problems without the proper plans and tools and such… especially if they didn’t read Russian (and i speak as a tech here)

    hence my low assignment of Probability

    note that never do i say it’s impossible, and i do cite ways it coudl be possible… and then give Reasons why each Possibility has a low Probability, according to my own Understanding

    as for #59… i don’t know, not being as familiar with the Qur’an as i am with other scriptures, but i am unAware of such Prophesies in that book at this time

    hope all that helps


  • JustOneMan


    Dont forget when the USSR collapsed there were huge amount of arms and weapons sold on the black market…hey I bet a missle could fetch a lot of rubbles…

    But then again theres Iran, China & Korea

  • How big of a warhead would you need for some bright flares burning in sequence and some powdered yellowcake?

    I’d think it’d only need a rocket not a missile.
    A long range scud?

  • Gonzo Gonzo Gonzo, maybe it’s because I play chess? Who said it had to be launched from Iran?

    Hesbullshitla is getting their missiles from where? Why not launch it from Lebanon, the prophecy would come true, Iran would have a good laugh, and Lebanon would suffer the consequences!

    Don’t get so pissed off.
    You’re welcome here-you KNOW that.

    Carus deus, quis have ego commissio?

  • Jet in #57

    where the fuck do they get a missile?

    long range rockets, they got.. but an actual missile capable of delivering such a warhead?

    not fucking likely

    and if so, it woudl clearly have USSR printed on the side, cuz that’s the only source they could have had for such

    again, not fucking likely…

    not impossible, mind you.. but very low on the Probability matrix


  • Gonzo 50-Correct me if I’m wrong-and I probably am, but isn’t it written somewhere that the muslims belived that all life on Earth must cease to exist before their souls can ascend to heaven?

  • Nancy 49-The problem with that is smuggling it in without the transit being spotted by satelite

  • Gonzo 48-Welcome!!! Try this for size, a missile loaded with a warhead programed to explode two miles above Jerusalem with enough incinderary devices to light up the night sky as predicted, and also enough “nuklur” powder to make it a radioactive “dirty” bomb.

    Not enough to be destructive, but enough to spread radiation sickness and death??? Do they have the resources for that?

    Is that a workable plan?

    Carus deus, quis have ego commissio?

  • Suss #46 You know, by your very own words, you’re inplying that Bush’s Crawford ranch is more secure than the White House????????

    Well if I personally had the option of working from home or the most prestigeous mansion in the free world I wonder what I’d do?

    The white house is supposed to be his home from whence he works and the American People hired him and pay him to work from that home, not go flying in Air Force one on unnecessary trips and be on vacation all the time.

    How about a comparason between GW’s number of vacation days vs Bill Clinton’s now wouldn’t that be interesting?….

  • Nancy#45-true-all very true

  • Nancy, if your contention is that all Iranians agree with their current political course, I can’t really see any difference at all between your ideas and the racist rantings of Richard Brodie or the looney dogma of the more theological side of Ruvy’s, er, broad personality.

    Your lack of discrimination and apparent lack of any sense of nuance makes it hard to take your perspective at all seriously, if you’ll forgive me the mild criticism.

  • Nancy..

    N Korea has enough fissionable material for somewhere between 2-10 devices of low yeild, no method of delivery, and questionable bomb making capability

    the Pakistani material is closely watched by their government and by India, i highly doubt any woud be diverted form the root cause of deterrence between those two nations… it is possible, but woudl bwe quite difficult in the last 5 years for various reasons

    and i am quite certain that before the U.S. woudl need to react to Iran, the Isrealis would swiftly retaliate with much more effect than anything Tehran could deal with


  • Nancy

    Yah, BUT:

    No one knows for sure what Kim has or doesn’t have; Pakistan has plenty of people in the government who don’t support the President & do support terror who would gladly sell out; and India’s physicist, Khan, is still alive, well, and living the good life unimprisoned after selling all kinds of nuclear secrets all over the place, which astonishes me. For all anyone knows he still is peddling everyone’s life away to support his deluxe lifestyle.

    It wouldn’t immediately mean retaliation on Iran; when it comes to nuclear attack, everyone in the western world is (correctly) almost over-wussy about using it. I think there’d be a lot of squawking & howling, coupled with tearful/threatening pleas for diplomacy, etc. ad nauseam instead of giving the Iranians what they deserved: turning them into a sheet of molten glass – which, actually, we should have done long ago, IMO.

  • Ruvy (#38),

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I was always understood that a lot of modern eschatologists believe “Gog” to actually be a reference to a land northernmost of Isreal (modern-day Russia?).

    I’m at work today and wont be able to respond right away but look forward to your thoughts on this.


  • a Possibility i pointed out, Nancy

    i just do not weigh it as a high Probability at this time

    if they do have such capability, it woudl be quite limited, one device…at the most two

    it would invite IMMEDIATE retaliation not only upon Iran, but on whomever it was foudn out that sold such a device to them

    and on that stage, only the U.S. wins… since our stockpile and tech is so much greater than the rest of the world, combined… and we have the capability to deliver it precisely where we want, whenever we want

    i don’t think even the crazies in Tehran are suicidal.. i certain the Chinese are not… the Pakistani’s are smarter than that…and N Korea has so little at this time, they are not about to give any of it away and lose their edge

    we will see, and i do hope i read it all correctly

    but any sane speculation flies out the window when messianic politics become involved



  • Nancy

    With Pakistan (and India’s Khan) – not to mention N. Korea – more than willing to sell anything to anyone for any reason, I wouldn’t bet Iran doesn’t have something in the works, Gonzo.

  • side note on Iran’s theoretical “nuclear capability”

    unless someone has actually delivered a nuke to them, they have none

    hear me out

    Iran has bought a limited amount of uranium hexaflouride, which is needed to be used in cascade centerfuges in order to process fissionable material

    they have enough of that to run about 2 centerfuges, and with the quality they hold, would need over 200 units in a cascade configuration in order to produce significant quantities of fissionable material

    so far, they do not have enough

    the native Iranian uranium is contaminated with molybdenum… the Iranians do NOT have the technical capabilities to remove this molybdenum from the uranium, and not removing this impurity would destroy any cascade devices this contaminated material was used in

    now, it IS possible that they have been given an actual nuclear device (say, from Pakistan, or even China)… or that they have some secret supply of uranium hexaflouride we are not aware of…(however, even if they do, they are still over 190 centerfuges short of the needed cascade assembly for enrichment)

    see, physics apply

    also to not, none of the actions Iran has taken so far on this front are in violation of the Non-Proliferation treaty which they are signatory to

    i am NOT defending the bullshit puppet government in Iran, or it’s hate mongering “president” as was appointed by the Mullahs… just pointing out the data as best as we know it at this time

    this doesn’t mean that something may not occur on the 22nd… just that, unless someone has secretly delivered a nuke to Iran, they do not have the capability (by a long shot) to have even put a single device together themselves at this time

    as to the other side of the Topic…

    yes, Jet.. i do see evidence that many on the World Stage at this point in our history have indeed lost their Reason and are acting as if they hold some Significance in scriptural Prophecy…

    and i do think such deluded fools are the most dangerous Thing in our World at this time.. but the Danger comes from their Delusions, not from any outside Entity

    your mileage may vary


  • Nancy

    You can’t ‘work’ at the presidency while clearing brush, cycling, or fundraising – and that’s all the vacuous fucker ever does. If he WERE ‘working’ from home, nobody would be complaining.

  • If you had the opportunity to work from home, you would too. I have that chance in maybe a year, and you’d bet your bottom dollar that I’m trying to make that happen.

  • Nancy

    Dubya’s past history demonstrates that he’s always been lazy & knocked off, once he’s achieved what he considers to be his “goal”, in this case, the presidency. Now he’s got the title, he doesn’t have to work much more than the minimum to sustain the illusion he’s The Decider. His tenure as Texas governor showed that. Ditto his stints heading various (failed) business concerns. Only this time Mummy & Poppy Bush can’t buy his way out of his incompetence.

  • Matt it is to be pointed out that the man spends a huge percentage of his time either on vacation on his ranch, relaxing at Camp David, flying all over the country making expensive political fundraising stops on the taxpayer’s dimes, of galavanting all over the world instead of being in the White House where he belongs.

    The man avoids Washington like his father avoids brocoli!

    If Bush’s administration and so-called Heartland Security Agency were doing its job, the White House would be the safest place in the world!

    It was during all previous administrations; wasn’t it?

  • As always my Ruvy Research Department comes through again in a pinch. Thanks my friend.


  • “Why is our president flying around making political visits from his ranch in Texas, instead of heading directly to the White House?”

    Well, how about because the White House is a bigger target, so as not to put all eggs in one’s basket he moves his office to Texas.

  • Sorry folks the comment directed at Maurice was posted on the wrong string-My bad-juggling too many balls in the air at once…


  • Okay Maurice, it’s been months since I researched it but here goes…

    From the Middle East Policy Counill
    Post-invasion membership of Iraq in OPEC may well become a sensitive issue. It may appear attractive to the anti-OPEC members of the U.S. administration to weaken the organization by removing Iraq from membership or, in the long run, to “control” Iraqi production to lessen reliance on Saudi Arabia. Neither strategy makes any sense. Saudi Arabia has always been a steadying, fiscally pragmatic influence in OPEC production and price-setting decisions, to the benefit of the United States as the world’s major oil consumer. In addition, there is no reason to suppose that a newly emergent free and democratic Iraq would act other than in its own best interest as a participant in OPEC production and pricing decisions. For example, Iraq would be well aware that if, under pressure from an occupying power, they seek to gain market share at the expense of Saudi Arabia, Aramco could well flood the world oil market, driving down prices and crippling Iraq’s post-invasion humanitarian and economic-recovery program

  • Nancy

    Hmph. Pity it won’t wipe out Cheney, too. Have a good shabbat, Ruvy. Thanks.

    Jet, I accept your amendment. Thanks.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem


    In the Tana”kh in Ezekiel 39, it recites the following.

    God’s Covenant With Israel, Gog’s Armies Destroyed

    1 “And you, son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, ‘Thus says the L-rd G-d: “Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the prince, head of Meshech, and Tubal; 2 and I will turn you around and lead you on, bringing you up from the far north, and bring you against the mountains of Israel. 3 Then I will knock the bow out of your left hand, and cause the arrows to fall out of your right hand. 4 You shall fall upon the mountains of Israel, you and all your troops and the peoples who are with you; I will give you to birds of prey of every sort and to the beasts of the field to be devoured. 5 You shall fall on the open field; for I have spoken,” says the L-rd G-d.”

    George Bush is Gog. He is descended from a family that is from a valley near the hills of Gog and Magog, England. His nickname in the Skull and Bones Society in Yale was “Goggie.”

    Note: I have changed the translation of the web site just a bit. The website translates the title of Gog as “Prince of Rosh…”, etc. Rosh means “head” as in leader or person at the top. Rosh haShana means “head of the year.”

    For some reason he Gog/Bush comes to Israel, probably to visit the troops he has sent here. Events occur that cause him and his troops to die. Thus he become birdfood on the mountains of this country. That is how I read Ez.39:1-5. Which is why I always hope that the man maintains his appetite. I want the birds of prey and beasts of the field to have a good, satisfying meal.

    Shabbat Shalom

  • Nancy, Unfortunately I’d agree with one amendment… There are many peaceful decent Muslims. The only peaceful radical fundementalist Muslims are the dead ones.

    Stop picking on Bush-shame on you. In a national crisis it’s only right that our leader concern himself with political fundraising and clearing brush on vacation in Texas.

    After all, Chenney’s in Washington running things, and trying to arrange a quail hunting trip with Ahmadineja to “talk things over”

    Carus deus, quis have ego commissio?

  • Kishore #30 says “Muslim or Islam has nothing to do with this.”.

    Kishy old man, PLEASE!!!!. While your nationalistic pride is interesting, every one of every successful terror attack perpetrated on the US has been accomplished by…

    Every one of every successful terror attack on British soil has been accomplished by…

    Every one of every successful terror attack on Israel has been accomplished by…

    (Drumroll please?)

    …A radical Muslim/Islamic fundamentalist!

    I think it has EVERYTHING to do with it!

    Of course that’s only my opinion…

  • Sy #29-your chosen quote answers your question for you, it’s the Bush administration not Bush himself.

    He’s not allowed to think for himself.

    When he does it comes out in frightening stammers and a dozen “Uh-Uh”s along with many rediculous hand gestures and misquoted bible verses.

  • Glen 26, no all we need is a horse with a man’s head-Hmmmm North Korean gene splicing?

  • Ruvy#25 Since the Prophet rose from Jerusalem in a brightly lit up night sky, I’d still say that’s the target, despite the temptation of Tel Aviv.

    I hope I’m worng

    As for a nick name-good question Hmmm.

    MR A
    Mad Jad?

    As always, thanks for contributing.


  • Glen Boyd 24: Bush was elected by loaded church busses full of preprogrammed voters whose only goal was to turn this nation into a theocracy!

    As always your input is most welcome.

    Carus deus, quis have ego commissio?

  • Nancy

    Ruvy, please explain the comment #27: how does Bush become bird food, & for who? Frankly, I wouldn’t weep to see him buy it in any manner, or that sick-o pervert, Cheney; as for Bush acting like it’s business as usual, as pointed out, this won’t be the first few dozen times he’s been clueless in a crisis.

    Regretably, I have had to come to the conclusion that the only peaceful muslims are dead muslims, at this point.

  • kishore

    It is unfortunate that the Muslims and Islam are being targeted. Muslim or Islam has nothing to do with this. It is only the Pakistan’s ISI which is doing all the dirty job with their Muslim Surrogates, its name is not giong to come out. Only Osama Bi Laden, who is a cave man, who does not have Internet connection to know what is happening in the World, and who sleeps in Caves was able to Plot??……….Silly World, absolutely no logic.

    West is Pathetic, they can’t understand the Brilliant minds of the Pakistan’s Intelligence Agency, ISI, They are the best int he world. CIA is a big shit in front of them. CIA is begging for $5 Billions, F-16’s to be released to Pakistan, otherwise the Pakistani ISI is going to do some thing that would be “Unimaginable” and CIA can not perpetually thwart these attempts. You americans, please bow your heads and learn some humility. Please give the Pakistani’s the Money so that they can remain quite, But you can never stop them. They are too “Sophisticated”

  • sy

    “Could the Bush Administration know more than they’re letting on about an additional impending danger that they don’t want to panic the American population about?” ….Have you forgotten that all knowing look on Bushs face sept 11 at the florida school….Bushs body language clearly said he did not have a clue what was going on. And what gives you the impression that he does not seek to panic the public. Their color coded terror alert level routine does nothing but scare.

  • Actually Ruvy I think the guy you may be thinking of goes by the name of Javier Solana, and thats fodder for another entire conversation.

    I think Bush is sort of the “idiot savant” playing a role, though not the one he may think…(my personal take for what little it is worth, and as the good “liberal” I am, I try to maintain public neutrality on these things…LOL)

    Lots of sixes assocaited with Mr. Solana though.
    Lots of em. Just do the research on the E.U.

    You might wanna check out a site called fulfilledprophecy.org for the sake of research if nothing else (I don’t expect you to buy into his messainic beliefs…not at all)

    But some very interesting stuff there.

    My prayers for you are sincere though Ruvy. Because there is something in the air. And I feel it as surely “here” as I am sure you do “there”.

    Peace be with you my brother.


  • Ruvy in Jerusalem


    Thank you for your prayers and by the way – Ruvy is the nickname from Reuven – the name I got from the moyel when he took my (and his) tip over 50 years ago…

    I wasn’t happy with Mr. Bush when he was declared the winner in December 2000. Actually, if he is the fellow I (and many rabbis) think he is, he should be very concerned with the End of Days. He plays a big role in them – and winds up as enriched birdfood for the vulures of this Land.

    I’ll have to think about that nickname – it just doesn’t have a Persian ring to it, and it doesn’t fly like a rug…

    Shabbat Shalom

  • Ruvy,

    If Aham D (theres your nickname) does choose to light up the sky in accordance with paving the way for his “Mahdi” (and thank you for the correct spelling on that), I will be praying you for my brother.

    Come to think of it, I will be praying for you anyway Ruvy.

    These are amazing times no matter how it is spun by the media. If my understanding of biblical prophecy is correct though (and i admit i am no scholar on this), God will not permit the destruction of Isreal and will in fact reign fire down upon those who try. At least if my understanding of that particular chronology of events is correct.

    I’m not real happy with Mr. Bush right now.

    God bless you in any case Mr. Ruvy. My prayers are with you.


  • Ruvy in Jerusalem


    My take on all this is very simple. Ahamdinejad is a religious man who has been reported by some to have spoken with the Mahdi (the hidden 12th imam of the Shia) and who plays ball with a messianic bat. Like anybody who honestly believes in a messianic future, he wants to usher it in as fast as he can.

    Since he seems to be closer to his messiah than I am to mine, he seems less worried about the “brownie points” to be accrued before the actual arrival of the messiah (according to Jewish concepts, you can no longer acquire “brownie points” by doing good deeds once the messiah arrives) and also, since he is a leader of his country (as opposed to a poor immigrant in this one) Ahmadinejad feels a responsibility to act that is greater than the one I feel. Maybe that is how he figures to obtain his “brownie points.”

    in any event, Ahmadinejad sees significance in his religious calendar, just as I see significance in mine. The mere fact that some religious Jews see him as delusional does not impress me any. Ahmadinejad (I gotta figure out a short nickname for this guy) has his trigger finger on a weapons button and his technicians are working hard (or have worked hard already) to make that button a nuclear one.

    So, if he has a surprise up his sleeve, a little package to wipe out the “little satan” on the Mediterranean, I’m sure we’ll see it. The prophecies of Zechariah do read like a man envisioning a nuclear attack.

    It’s the target that I think you have wrong, Jet. While Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, Tel Aviv is probably where Ahmadinejad envisions the nest of Jewish “cockroaches” as originating from. If I were him, my target would be Tel Aviv and the international airport near Lod, using conventional weapons on the airport.

    With those pleasant thoughts, I leave you to contemplate the Sabbath… Homework: read the Books of Zechariah, and Joel. I’d assign you more, but you have eye problems…

    Shabbat Shalom

  • Agreed Jet. (#22)

    That is also (at least one of) my problems with Bush. Although to be honest, if he actually did read his Bible, he’d also get to the part about the destruction of Isreal’s enemies (see Isaiah for that fun stuff).

    Regardless, the leader of a democracy has no business dictating policy from a theistic point of view. Thats “Any-theistic”.

    Our constitution clearly provides for a seperation of religion and state. The leader of this nation has the right to privately held religious views of his own of course.

    But the public policy regarding these things must always be one of neutrality. Thats how these things have worked for 200 plus years now.

    Thats my problem with Bush (at least one of them)…and I’m a Christian mind you (albeit a “liberal one”, and you’d be surprised at our numbers….then again maybe you wouldn’t).

    Public policy must never be dictated by religion as long as we live in a country (and may I say a “thank God” for that) which welcomes the free exercise of all religions and beliefs.

    What I do recognize as a religious person myself though is that the world seems to be turning as no time before on the beliefs…by our government, by others in influential positions…in these apocalyptic prophecies.

    And I am glad at least SOMEBODY in the media recognizes this as well, rather than being in denial. Because again, it is a BIG part of the story.

    It is scary that so many in power, on all sides of the equation, are making decisions based on matters of personal religious faith.

    It defies the logic of public service on so many levels.

    As a person of faith, I find it personally amazing that so many of us find a dichotomy in the simple principle that matters of faith and religion must remain seperate in a democratic society if it is to remain democratic at all.

    Many of my republican friends seem to be blinded by this simple fact.

    But as a person of logic, I find it equally incredible that regardless of faith, any reasonable person would live in denial of the reality of the religious passions powering world events at this particular moment in time. Rightly or wrongly.

    The bottom line is apocalypse fever is fueling a lot of you see going on in the world right now.

    Either the entire world has gone completely insane or maybe there really is “something happening here, what it is aint exactly clear” as Stephen Stills once wrote at another volatile time in world history.

    To ignore it, is to bury one’s head in the proverbial sand.

    That turned into a far greater rant than I intended, and I apologize.

    I also commend you on a good story recognizing those potential implications.

    By the way, I hear Firestone is a good bet for those alignments.


  • Nugget 19… I’m almost afraid to ask…

  • Glen, one of the rather right tilting talk radio stations here in Columbus Ohio carries his radio show, which preceeds Rush’s. I tune in to get the local news on the hour when I’m out on the road, and he’s nearly caused me to go off the road a few times as the whole car would tend to lean to the right.

    He may be the reason I’ll need a wheel alignment soon.

    George Bush seems obsessed with the End of Days, and I believe he doesn’t care what consequences his actions cause because he believes Revelations will come soon. It also may explain why he doesn’t seem to be all that concerned about the destruction of Israel now or in the future, since it’s required for the second coming to occur…

    I appreciate your contribution sir. As always I bring up subjects like this so I can learn stuff I don’t know, rather than to impress anyone.

    “I don’t know” is the most intelligent thing a man can say…

    In my opinion

  • reminds of a pretty cool and very relevant Neil Young song actually…(sorry couldn’t resist)…


  • It wouldn’t be the first time Dubya was asleep at the switch.


  • nugget

    I bought some Ramen noodles and an extra gallon of water today. I also have a bike. I”m ready!

  • Dave, I heard something vaguely about that, that one of the ring leaders were caught and talked, but I was under the impression it was to the Pakistani authorities who passed it along to Scotland Yard.

    Of course I’m probably wrong.

    I look forward to any research you can contribute


  • Suss, since we’re perusing the questions, answer me one of them…With the nation on its highest alert level, why is our president flying around making political visits from his ranch in Texas, instead of heading directly to the White House?

  • Jet,

    I’ve never seen Mr. Beck’s program before (and was unaware of a right leaning bias in the past if that is the case). But I did pick up on a pro-Isreal sort of feel at least, which is something I would expect to see on Fox sooner than I would CNN.

    His awareness of the significance of religious symbolism in the form of apocalyptic prophecy playing a role in these events is what impressed me most though.

    A lot of news reporting seems to gloss over this issue, but religious prophecies regarding the “end of days” is what drives a lot of world events right now.

    Not because they are necessarily actually happening (though they could well be), but because of the prevalent BELIEF that they are in some very influential quarters, both within governments and within terrorist organizations.

    Whether or not you or I subscribe to any of these views …be they Christian, Islamic, or whatever… is irrelevant for the most part. The fact is theres little doubt that religious fundamentalists of all stripes who do believe in these prophecies, are calling quite a few shots on the world stage right now.

    Their belief in these prophecies being relevant to the current time…be it of an Islamic “Makti” (I apologize if I didn’t spell that correctly) or a Messianic Jesus…drives world events in this time as it never before has.

    The fact that Beck is smart enough to recognize this, and to weave into his reporting, makes him a very credible journalist in as much as he at least he recognizes this part of the story.

    Because it is a very big part of the story. Whatever your own beliefs are, people in positions of power have religious beliefs that are driving policy.

    It’s a scary thought on many levels, but especially so if it so happens they are wrong.

    It’s irresponsible at the very least.


  • I’ll have to research it more, Jet, but the report I heard on the radio today said that some of the suspects were caught as a result of work done by the CIA – it may have been referring to the two apprehended in Pakistan.


  • I’m kinda nervously waiting for Gonzo and Ruvy’s take on this.

    Carus deus, quis have ego commissio?

  • Dave, I’m intrigued-not disagreeing-just intrigued, please elaborate on the CIA’s participation. It looked to me like it was Scotland Yard all the way with Pakistani Intelligence thrown for good measure?

  • Glen #10 Thanks for contributing, always appreciated. I think that’s why I watched a lot of it, Mr. Beck has a tendency to lean over to the right, but not on this issue.

    Carus deus, quis have ego commissio?

  • Dave #9 That’s what I’m afraid of…

  • Jet,

    Glen here…Boyd, not Beck (no relation by the way…LOL).

    I saw this program tonight as well and was very intrigued by it. I follow events in the mideast with great interest from a number of different perspectives and was channel surfing when I came across Mr. Beck’s program on CNN.

    What impressed me about this was the lack of spin (though Beck is also a very entertaining personality)…

    There was no hard right or hard left bias whatsoever which I found very refreshing. Beck also seems to know something about the apocalyptic prophecies of both the Muslim and Christian religions.

    Some people may view a guy like Beck as being somewhat alarmist, what with his talk of WW3, armageddon, and all. But from what I could tell from the broadcast tonight he’s been fairly on the money (so far) about Iran’s real agenda and why they may be the real threat to mideast peace.

    What I’d really like to see him take a closer look at is the role of the E.U. in the peace negotiations.

    Keep your eye on a guy named Javier Solana as far as that process goes. The E.U.’s high representative is not well known to Joe Six Pack right now in this country. But I suspect he could be a household name very soon if things continue to unfold as they are now, and the E.U. steps in with a solution. This would come only after things get very ugly I suspect, if it comes at all.

    But remember that name. Javier Solana.

    I’ll be keeping an eye on August 22 as well.

    Good story Jet. And I recognized it immediately as being a departure from your usual satiric wit…LOL.


  • Aaman, rather than speculation, I see Jet raising relevant questions here. There are a lot of factors in play right now and international instability is at a record level. It’s not just paranoia when people really ARE religiously obsessed and unquestionably planning acts of terror.

    Jet may not be perfect – he seems to have missed the CIA’s major role in the terrorist captures in Britain – but he IS asking relevant questions.

    The problem is that the answer isn’t going to come on a blog, it’s going to come in a bomb.


  • Well, I’ve seen reports from the New Scotland Yard and Pakistani Intelligence, where’s the CIA?
    Probably asleep as usual.

    Do you realize that they actually consult with the New York City police in matters of terrorism because their intelligence sources are better?!?

  • Fair enough Matt, this is an opinion/speculation peice and all opinions are welcome and respected-thanks

  • Aaman, it’s how my warped mind put the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle together. Your results may vary

    Carus deus, quis have ego commissio?

  • Why has the United States been raised to the highest threat level of security over a thwarted terrorist attack over in the United Kingdom?

    Why wasn’t it raised to the same level when the London subway bombings occurred?

    Perhaps because those subways weren’t headed to the U.S.

  • Much speculation, little fact, the best reporting style of the blogosphere

  • No people-this is NOT a satire!!!

  • There seems to be confusion about when the date fall on the 21st or the 22nd… I’m still looking

  • Thank you Mark, I hope it doesn’t come true too!

    Carus deus, quis have ego commissio?