Today on Blogcritics
Home » Culture and Society » The Health Care All Of Us Want

The Health Care All Of Us Want

Please Share...Tweet about this on Twitter0Share on Facebook0Share on Google+0Share on LinkedIn0Pin on Pinterest0Share on TumblrShare on StumbleUpon0Share on Reddit0Email this to someone

The Republican Party insists that it has been shut out of the health care reform process by the Obama administration. This is clearly not the case. It’s all spelled out clearly and distinctly, on the web. It is because of this brand new transparency, brought to all of us via the White House's website, that we can examine just what the Republicans have brought to the table as we discuss the urgently crucial need for health care reform.

In my opinion, the Republicans’ concerns which have been contributed to this health care reform bill have more to do with policing the costs and expenditures of Medicare and Medicaid than reforming the insurance companies, which brought us to this health care cost crisis in the first place.

At this point, the battle for health care reform rages on in front of the television cameras, allowing all of us to see what solutions are being presented and by whom. The American people are watching, for the most part in utter disbelief, as this power struggle between the two parties, the Democrats in power, and the Republicans who want the power back, unfolds.

Let’s look at the website now and see what the Republicans have brought to the plan; they have clearly been invited to sit down.

The President’s final proposal blends both House and Senate bills:

* Personal responsibility incentives: health insurance premiums will vary, based on participation in employer wellness programs. these are employer based (Sources: H.R. 3468, (Castle Bill); H.R. 4038,(Republican Substitute bill); H.R. 3970,(Kirk bill),"Coverage, Prevention and Reform Act")

* Advances medical liability reform through grants to states: Jump-start and evaluate medical liability reform to put patient safety first, prevent medical errors, and reduce liability premiums. (Sources: S. 1783, (Enzi bill); H.R. 3400, (Republican Study Committee bill); H.R. 4529, (Ryan bill); S. 1099, (Burr-Coburn, Ryan-Nunes bill)

* Extends dependent coverage to age 26: Gives young adults new options.(Sources: H.R. 4038, (Republican Substitute bill); H.R. 3970, (Kirk bill)

* Allows automatic enrollment by employers in health insurance: Allows employee to opt out. (Sources: House Republican Substitute; H.R. 3400, (Republican Study Committee bill); "Coverage, Prevention, and Reform Act" )

* Mechanisms to improve quality. ( Sources: H.R. 4529, S. 1099, H.R. 3400, Republican study bill; S. 1783, (Enzi bill)

The Presidents proposal includes many other Republican plans, to combat waste, fraud and abuse in government:

* Comprehensive sanctions database. Allows for law enforcement access to information relating to past sanctions on health care providers, suppliers, and related entities. (Source: H.R. 3400, “Empowering Patients First Act” (Republican Study Committee bill.)

* Registration and background checks of billing agencies and individuals. To decrease dishonest billing practices in the Medicare program. This will reduce fraud, and also allows for the exclusion from the Medicare program of individuals who have filed false claims ,  (Source:  H.R. 3970, “Medical Rights & Reform Act”)

* Expanded access to the Health Care Data Bank allows for broad review by peer organizations and includes criminal penalties for misuse. (Source: H.R. 3970, “Medical Rights & Reform Act”)

* Liability of All Medicare Administration Contractors, to insure that all claims made by excluded individuals are not paid by any agencies for programs or services denied. (Source: H.R. 3970, “Medical Rights & Reform Act.”)

* Community Mental Health Centers, with strict standards set, so that Medicare or the taxpayers are not taken advantage of. (Source: H.R. 3970, “Medical Rights & Reform Act”)

* Limiting Debt Relief due to Bankruptcies of Fraudulent Health Care Providers and Suppliers. Will assist in the recovery of monies owed to the Secretary due to over-payments. (Source: H.R. 3970, “Medical Rights & Reform Act”)

* Real time data review provided by the technology industry. This will assist in the quick identification of payments in order to prevent fraudulent and wasteful claims.
(Source: Roskam Amendment offered in House Ways & Means Committee markup)

* Illegal Distribution of Medicare and Medicaid Beneficiary Identification or Billing Privileges. Fraudulent billing to Medicare and Medicaid costs taxpayers millions of dollars yearly. Individuals who gain access to personal information of beneficiaries with false incentives, and, with the purpose to sell or distribute that information, will be strongly sanctioned with possible jail time. (Source: H.R. 3970, “Medical Rights & Reform Act”)

* Items and Study of Universal product Numbers Claim Forms for Selected services. To study and issue a report to Congress that would address whether the assignment of the UPNs would help improve more efficient operation of Medicare and detect abuse. (Source: H.R. 3970, “Medical Rights & Reform Act”, Roskam Amendment offered in House Ways & Means Committee markup)

The American people are not as worried about who is in charge of this health care bill, as they are about what would be the best way to move forward to immediate results. Every day that passes takes us further away from the relief that health care reform could bring to this failing economy and to the personal lives of all Americans. The people want the best combination of both bills proposed by the House and the Senate, including a robust public option. The public option would insure true competition for the insurers, forcing them to lower their profit margins. The American taxpayers demand the best quality, the most coverage, and the greatest relief from their out-of-pocket expenses. Meanwhile, the fight for single-payer also rages on, as we all continue to desire a seat at this table.

Powered by

About Jeannie Danna

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Jeannie –

    You realize, of course, that it is treasonous to tell people that they shouldn’t be afraid of seeing the doctor of their own choice, and of being able to afford the care they need.

    If you were a true conservative – as all red-blooded, red-meat-eating, red-with-the-blood-of-your-enemies, real (white) Americans are – you’d know that you must be afraid, so very afraid of this government takeover of every bit of our medical care!

    Look at the freedoms that Obamacare’s taking away from us!

    We will no longer have the freedom to be denied health care when we need it most!

    We will no longer have the freedom to not be able to afford our health care!

    We will no longer have the freedom to be driven into bankruptcy by our health care costs (unlike every other modern democracy on the planet)

    We will no longer have the freedom to watch our sons and daughters suffer and die because of pre-existing conditions!

    But all is not lost!

    At least we still have the freedom to have significant portions of our health care costs go to hundreds of millions of dollars in bonuses to the CEO’s! At least we still have the freedom to finance their Gulfstream jets and their several-times-every-year trips to hideously expensive resorts!

    Yeah! Join the Republicans so we prove to Obama that “they can’t take away…our…freeeeeeeeeeeeeddddoooooommmmm!!!!” [said in a voice suspiciously like that of a certain famous anti-semite]

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I thought it was William Wallace, the Braveheart.

    I didn’t know he was anti-semite.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Rog –

    you know very well who I’m referring to – and he was the director of that movie, IIRC. I used to really, really like his movies till he opened his big drunken mouth.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, let’s settle for Russell Crowe then.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Glenn,

    I am so glad, that yours was the first comment in this thread!

    Now, I can take the pain medication, that the VA single-payer insurance prescribed for my back.

    Yes, I’m going to sleep well tonight.

    Thank you Glenn, I even laughed, lol!

    :] See you tomorrow, I hope.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Jeannie,

    I want a single payer system. I also want parity for people in the medical profession. I want the medical system in this country to morph into a not-for-profit paradigm. I want insurance companies out of my medical treatment and I want politicians out of my bedroom.

    Unfortunately, that which we want will never come to pass unless we take the lobbyists out of the equation. The health care industry has invested $400 million in lobbying Congress on stopping the train which has already derailed. That $400 million could have been saved thereby halting the horrific increases in premiums — especially by Anthem Blue Cross in California.

    The people we have sent to Congress swore to uphold the Constitution. The problem is the Constitution they uphold is that which governs corporations — not the people.

    Once again, I must remind everyone that any reform of any type cannot be accomplished until we stop the financial madness taking place in Washington. The BILLIONS of dollars spent peddling influence comes out of OUR pockets. Our economic disaster is a direct result of the free flowing money coming out of K Street and into the pockets of politicians WE have returned to office ad nauseum. Congressman Charlie Rangel has wrangled plenty of cash from special interests — it’s high time he resign from all leadership positions immediately as well as withdraw from running in the Fall.

    It’s also time that Mitch McConnell and John McCain step down as well. Senator McCain has spit in the face of his constituency across this country. The man I supported in 2000 is completely extinguished. Rather than continue the good fight of the Maverick Senator, he’s sold his soul to the GOP and Far Right. He’s so determined to return for another term that he’ll turn his back on all that he believed and fought for. That soldier who was held captive in the Hanoi Hilton has succumbed to the wiles of an intrinsically evil Far Right managed by equally malevolent religious leaders who are no better than Mullah Omar. I thank God every day Megan McCain continues to carry out the legacy of her father who died with his candidacy in 2000 at the manipulative hands of Karl Rove, Dick Cheney and George W. Bush. I’m am flaming mad and wish others would hop on board this Subway to Hell.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Silas,

    Thank you for this comment. I know that some people can hear me.
    I agree that the corruption in this world has gone through the roof. The question is, “What can we do about it?”
    I tell people, over and over, that I am an independent without a party or a voice.
    I back Obama, because he still is the best hope we have left, that anybody in power is actually looking out for us.
    We certainly cannot go back to anything that closely resembles the last thirty years in this country.
    I’m up in the middle of the night looking for a free punctuation checker, similar to my Goggle spell check. Do you know the name of one that I can add to FF for free?

    :]Hope so, nite Silas, thanks again!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Please ignore my punctuation question! I just changed the settings in word, so now I should be OK.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    LIMBAUGH: You know I’m getting so many people — this Louise Slaughter comment on the dentures? I’m getting so many people — this is big. I mean, that gets a one-time mention for a laugh, but there are people out there that think this is huge because it’s so stupid. I mean, for example, well, what’s wrong with using a dead person’s teeth? Aren’t the Democrats big into recycling? Save the planet? And so what? So if you don’t have any teeth, so what? What’s applesauce for? Isn’t that why they make applesauce?

    Need I say more?

  • Baronius

    Jeannie – Limbaugh was being satirical. He made the point earlier that just because you acknowledge problems in the health care system doesn’t mean you have to agree that the Democrats’ reform package is any good. During the summit, quite a few Democratic leaders cited horror stories as if they proved that their bill would be beneficial. It’s been the Republican position that Congress should do something good, not simply “do something”.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronius,

    That is the problem with the Republican/Conservative agenda. You seem to think that if you say, “Oh, we are just being satirical.”, then everything will be justified, no harm done.

    BTW, did you actually read this article, or are you just trying to get the last word on this thread?

  • Baronius

    Jeannie – The left doesn’t use satire? What about Jon Stewart?

    Yes, I read the article. I thought it was well laid out, but I didn’t agree with it. You say that the Republicans weren’t shut out of the health care debate because some of their suggestions were incorporated 13 months into the presidency.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    It’s been the Republican position that Congress should do something good, not simply “do something”.

    And on that GOP point, I heartily agree. I don’t want Congress to slam through a package which will ultimately fail. As much as the GOP hates single payer, I don’t see a better solution. Operating costs have to be made more efficient. Medicare has helped millions of Americans including me. It’s not the greatest but it’s better than having nothing or paying for insurance which won’t be half as effective.

    You know, one thing I have heard nothing about is dental care and how essential oral health is to overall body health. Debilitating and even fatal illness can be caused by poor oral health yet insurance companies and the government minimize its’ role in medicine. The same could be said for eye care.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Silas,

    This fact is absolutely true, they are more concerned with how much Medicare and Medicaid costs, rather than making the for-profit model change. After all, we are not talking about most Americans’ bottom line here; we are talking about theirs.

    I will be back, after a short rest.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronious,

    John Stewart, isn’t being propped up as the voice of the Democrats’ Party.

    You shouldn’t even place Stewart in the same sentence as Limbaugh,there really are no similarities between the two.

    That’s all I’m saying for now.Bye

  • Baronius

    My concern with single-payer is that it isolates the individual from the service. I realize that in emergencies, a person isn’t going to have the luxury of shopping around. But we make can decisions about preventative medicine on our own. We can shop around for pharmaceuticals. We even have some say in dealing with chronic conditions. We should be allowed to exercise our freedom in these areas.

    You’re onto something really important, Silas, that no one’s talking about. Health care isn’t a single commodity. If you were to listen to the debate over the past year, you’d think that there are two kinds of health care, Abortion and Other. We should be talking about specifics. If we’re serious about giving everyone access, then let’s ask, access to what? Bone saws and sulfa drugs? Heart/liver transplants?

    There are a couple of reasons we don’t talk about the specifics. One reason I’ve been thinking about a lot lately is that preventative care on the one hand has the best roi, and on the other is most likely to violate our individual freedom. And if we’re serious about this, we need to stop playing games. For example, I don’t see a reason that I should give a penny to health care for anyone who smokes. But I don’t want to ration care away from smokers. Where’s the balance?

  • Baronius

    Jon Stewart has the exact same role on the left as Rush does on the right. Exactly. They’re both entertainers who use humor to promote their ideologies. They’ll jab at people in their own parties, but attack the other side’s principles. When called on it, they both hide behind their profession as entertainers. They both have daily shows with clips that, unfortunately, leave people thinking they just watched the news. They’re both naturally funny people. They both exploit the public’s frustration with politics.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Lol, right. Rush doesn’t consider himself a comedian and Stewart knows full well that what he’s doing primarily is telling jokes. There’s a big difference between a radio pundit and a comic, Baronius. Big difference.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “Jon Stewart has the exact same role on the left as Rush does on the right. Exactly.”

    Please cite example of where a politician on the left renounced Stewart and then later apologized to him. We’ll wait.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Jordan is correct. Stewart makes no pretense. Yes, he’s a liberal, but he makes no pretense that what he’s doing is “news.”

    Limbaugh on the other hand puts his views out there to be taken as gospel, and the right wingers lap it up as just that. Limbaugh is openly racist, anti-gay, anti-feminist and, needless to say, anti-Obama, anti-Democratic and anti-liberal. Actually, it’s a little difficult to discern just what he is for.

    Only when someone attempts to pin him down does Limbaugh use the “entertainer” card. Anyone who believes Limbaugh’s schtick is simply satire needs to study the meaning of the word. Limbaugh is dead serious in his delivery on most occasions. What supposed satire he employs is usually obnoxious and on the low end of any propriety scale.

    B

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    There is no such thing as a health plan “all of us” want; we are not identical and have neither identical needs nor identical desires. I have the following problems, among others, with the current health care proposals. Please excuse the article-length comment, but I don’t feel like writing an article.

    1. The version currently pushed by President Obama, which is said generally to follow the Senate version, would require that I buy U.S. approved health insurance or pay a tax penalty. I don’t need it, don’t want it and couldn’t even use it if I had it. I reside permanently outside the U.S. and have pretty good health insurance here in Panamá. The House bill provides an exemption for expats; the Senate bill does not. I have written two articles about medical care in Panamá, here and here. Generally, I like it and in some respects it could advantageously be emulated in the U.S. Medical insurance costs us about $1,000 per year; I am almost sixty-nine years old and my wife is sixty-five. Costs are lower for younger folks. The insurance company is associated with the best hospital in the nearest city and it has real, live humans prepared to discuss and resolve any problems which may arise. My wife and I know the general manager and his staff on a first name basis; they know us on the same basis and are familiar with our medical histories. When there is a reason to do so, they act with extraordinary promptness. Special procedures, including major surgery, have to be approved in advance — by a general physician in active practice designated for the purpose by the insurance company, rather than by a clerk looking up stuff in a manual. A few years ago, I required emergency back surgery. When my physician and I got through talking for an hour and a half about the problem and alternatives at 6:00 p.m., the insurance office was closed for the day. He telephoned the head of the company at home and an MRI (total cost $400, my cost $200) was approved for the next day; my surgery (more than five hours followed by three days in hospital and several follow up sessions with the surgeon) was on the following day (total cost $14,000, my cost $7,000).

    Were there an option to purchase U.S. medical coverage on a short term basis — a week or two — my wife and I would both get it for our infrequent and short trips to the U.S. That is apparently impossible.

    2. I understand and agree with the exclusion of preconditions. In 1998, I had cancer. Following surgery and radiation treatment in the U.S. (we then had reasonably good U.S. coverage), my radiation oncologist told me that I had a twenty-two percent chance of five year survival. My surgeon gave me an eighty percent chance. Both were right; twelve years later I have had no recurrence and am still very much alive. However, I am not eligible for cancer coverage here. My wife has such coverage, and it costs a whopping seventy-eight dollars per year. Were it available, I would of course have it as well. However, the low cost of her coverage presumably reflects the refusal to cover people with prior cancer problems.

    Preconditions are unfortunate and it would be great if there were none. It would also be great if nobody needed medical attention and if nobody had congenital disabilities. These perfect conditions do not exist. However, were all preconditions required to be covered the cost of insurance would increase, significantly I think. Somebody has to pay for such things, through higher insurance premiums or higher taxes. The costs may be hidden cleverly, but they are there. Money is a finite resource and the more is spent for X the less is available for Y and Z. Some people die because their medical preconditions are not covered. People also die due to inadequate roads, inadequate flight safety, inadequate snow removal, inadequate automobile maintenance, and a long list of other stuff. The educational system is dysfunctional. Fuel costs too much. Housing is sometimes unaffordable. Most likely, everyone would like it if perfection were available and free. It is not.

    3. The U.S. medical insurance bureaucracy is enormous and cumbersome, and at least in my own experience, does not provide the personal — human to human — contact I enjoy here. When I had cancer surgery and radiation therapy in the U.S., some of the costs were covered and some were not. It was impossible, in reviewing the bills I received, to determine the nature of the charges which were not covered. I had no idea, for example, what procedure “7xy28″ might be and upon inquiry could find out from neither the insurance company nor the billing entity. I declined to pay unexplained and incomprehensible charges. In most cases, my queries went unanswered aside from an occasional “attorney letter” threatening bad things. I responded that I was ready, willing and able to pay if they would tell me what the charges were for and with a threat that I would sue for defamation of credit if the threats were carried out. They were not, and the charges were dropped. By superimposing multiple new layers of federal and federally mandated bureaucracy the costs — direct and indirect and having no relationship to the actual cost of medical care — as well as the hassles would obviously increase. Ever deal with the IRS, the Social Security Administration or even the local school board?

    I understand that some families in the U.S. now pay more than $25,000 per year for medical insurance. Although there are other systemic factors, insurance costs have a lot to do with the cost of medical care in the U.S. Here, my annual coverage limit is $15,000 per year; that would not go far in the U.S. but it seems quite adequate here. Medically unnecessary tests and other procedures are not prescribed to avoid malpractice liability. Liability insurance costs for many specialists in the U.S. exceed the annual income for most physicians here.

    4. The ObamaCare plan presented in advance of the “summit” was eleven pages long, repetitive and replete with unsupported and unsupportable conclusions. The Congressional Budget Office has been unable to analyze the costs and benefits. It resembles the rocket ships I designed as a ten year old: fun but unlikely ever to get off the ground, much less to Mars even if I had the resources to build it, which I didn’t.

    There are a few ideas which seem to make sense. For example, repeal of antitrust exemptions for the medical insurance industry would make some sense, if the antitrust laws were enforced which they rarely are. Expansion of local clinics to take care of people who would otherwise go to hospital emergency rooms for minor problems at far greater cost makes sense. They clog up the emergency rooms and delay care for those truly in need of emergency room treatment. We have such local clinics here, in abundance. The only time I needed to go to an emergency room here, for a reaction to a spider bite, I was seen immediately and provided the necessary treatment. Various lab tests were quickly performed and I was there for about two hours. My total cost was less than $30.00. Limits on malpractice claims would also help, although Federal assistance to a few pilot programs seems far from adequate and the problem should be one for the states to address on their own.

    Dan(Miller)

  • Baronius

    So, the difference between Stewart and Limbaugh is that liberals accept Stewart’s partisan humor as humor, and treat Limbaugh’s as partisanship. I don’t really have to stretch my definitions to take that into account. As for El B’s point, I don’t recall a liberal politician ever denouncing Stewart. Does that mean he’s less powerful or moreso?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronius,

    Single-payer, would not take your freedom of choice away, in fact, it would get out of the way of your present doctors and put their profession back into their hands.

    [My concern with single-payer is that it isolates the individual from the service. I realize that in emergencies, a person isn’t going to have the luxury of shopping around. But we make can decisions about preventative medicine on our own. We can shop around for pharmaceuticals. We even have some say in dealing with chronic conditions. We should be allowed to exercise our freedom in these areas.]

    I just went through my single-payer health care, and i have a say in where I go and what types of treatment is going to be best for me. My doctor, doesn’t look at me as a consumer, he looks at me as what I am, his patient, at the moment. Also, please don’t say that grandma will die, if we adopt, single-payer; grandma, is not going anywhere until she is ready to go.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Stewart is a comic whereas Limbaugh is a clown. Perhaps that’s one kind of difference that might sink in.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronius,

    Stewart, doesn’t resort to racial slurs to get a rise out of people.

    Where as, Limbaugh, calls out to a base hatred that is present in some people, a small cold and stingy belief that you should be judged by the color of your skin, your sexual preferences,or your religious beliefs, instead of who you are, as a person.

    Limbaugh is a racist in the worst sense.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Sorry, I spelled his name wrong. That’s Jon Stewart.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baroniuos,

    Thank you for saying that the article was laid out well. I take that as a real compliment, although Clavos, was a large help with the punctuation and some of the sentence structure.

    Did you really look at the website? The Republicans have been involved from the beginning.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Dan Miller,

    That’s hilarious! You are writing a lengthy comment because you don’t want to write an article. I should consider doing that.

    Before you razzle dazzle us with all of these numbers and costs statistics, allow me to say, “The health care we all want, does treat us as individuals.”

    Single payer is just that, the payer system that the health care proffesion would deal with, instead of the giant insurers that skim way too much off of the top, in order to make a profit; they are just in the way, of any quality care at this point. The pharmas are doing a lot of damage to our health also.

  • Baronius

    I’d suggest you all listen to Limbaugh some time. He’s nothing like you’re characterizing him.

    In a single-payer system, you have no incentive to keep the price down, and neither does the doctor. That’s my worry.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Well this looks like a wonderful debate, I hope to return soon.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I’ve tried to listen, but, I always end up trying to call him up to bitch him out! :]bye

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Oh, I can’t wait to answer the second part of #29!

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Oh well. If St. Al the Gored is correct, we shouldn’t be worrying about health care. Global warming and/or the next ice age will terminate the human race. If inexplicably neither does, massive earthquakes will. How about an horrific invasion of giant alien meteors — from outer space, don’t ya know? Then, our health care problems will be solved.

    We gotta do something, anything, immediately; whether it works is unimportant. In any event, we can all be satisfied that we have done something. Alas, the conservatives don’t know what to do and, as all intelligent creatures know, they refuse to do anything. Shame! I say. Shame!

    Perhaps eventually some new species will crawl out of the primordial slime and do something useful; maybe even in fewer than eleven pages.

    Dan(Miller)

  • zingzing

    nice try, baronius. i’d bet you so much goddamn money that not even you think limbaugh is just an entertainer. he might hide behind the title now and again, but only when it’s to his, or your, advantage. if you can look deep down in yourself and tell me you think he’s the same thing as jon stewart–a comedian who makes his position as a comedian clear–then i’ll just have to call you a liar. limbaugh may be a joke, but he certainly doesn’t go out of his way to point it out to his audience.

    do you really think the left wing politicians hang on stewart’s words? what about limbaugh? you can’t deny his influence over right wing politics. and he obviously relishes it.

    lots of people can see through him, including you, but that just means we can see through you when you make up junk too.

  • mrdockellis

    Face it folks, Entertainers, comedians, clowns what have you heavily influence the debate. If you haven’t noticed, this is now an Entertainment culture. Chuckles and guffaws rule. In politics, laughter is an extremely powerful weapon. Both Limbaugh and Stewart serve their own cause simply in a different manner. Limbaugh’s act demands pomposity. Stewart’s calls for self-deprecation (I’m only a comic)

    Obamacare is a loser. The threats of reconciliation and deadlines (how many have we had now?)show the goal: get bipartisan support in any way shape or form. Then run for reelection as the great uniter. No sale this time Oblahblah.

    Every day is one day closer to November. The Day of Reckoning is approaching. The panic in Democratic circles is so evident. Many will soon join the ranks of the 10% unemployed

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Dan –

    I understand and agree with the exclusion of preconditions.

    So I’m supposed to tell my oldest son, “tough s**t, just don’t get sick”? Having had rheumatic fever and subsequent damage to his heart, there’s no insurance plan that he can afford.

    However, if he were in any other first-world democracy on the planet he’d have no problem at all getting health care. Is that your solution for all those who can’t get health care here, Dan? To just go to another country?

    What you and the rest of the conservatives are missing is that when health care is taken care of as a matter of course in a single-payer system, then people don’t put off checking out that lump in their breast, or that nagging little numbness they sometimes get in one arm or on one side of their face. They don’t have to wait until the cancer’s so far advanced that they’re forced into bankruptcy…or worse.

    Not only that, Dan, but when you make health care available to all, then your population is healthier as a whole. They then need LESS catastrophic health care, and they are better able to lead productive lives…which, by the way, is better for tax income for the nation in question…not to mention that the business community has no need to spend a significant proportion of their income for health care coverage!

    Just today I was listening on the radio (Democracy Now with Amy Goodman) and – I still have to verify the numbers, seventy percent of ALL bankruptcies in America are due to health care costs. In 2008 it was ‘only’ 50%. In any other first-world democracy, it’s ZERO percent.

    What you and the rest of the conservatives are not getting is that single-payer health care systems are a win-win-win system for all! It benefits everyone!

    That’s why health care for everyone in ALL those citizens of the other first-world democracies costs about half (or less) per capita than what the United States is ALREADY paying…per capita.

    It’s a radical paradigm shift for any conservative to make, Dan – but the proof is in the results…which is the fact that despite the fact that we DO have the very finest health care on the planet (for those who can afford it), we’re thirty-seventh on the national life-expectancy list…and the top twenty-seven countries on the life-expectancy list ALL have some form of single-payer health care.

    Which is right, Dan? Your paradigm? Or the hard-and-fast results that are found in all the other first-world democracies on the planet?

    Change your paradigm…and soon you’ll see much you didn’t see before.

  • Clavos

    we’re thirty-seventh on the national life-expectancy list…and the top twenty-seven countries on the life-expectancy list ALL have some form of single-payer health care.

    As I’ve explained innumerable times before, these two circumstances are essentially unrelated. The US’ miserable life expectancy is due far more to lifestyle issues than the quality of health care here, which is actually superior to most other countries’.

    You want to extend life expectancy here?

    Outlaw fast food, trans fats, sugar and all but the necessary levels of carbs.

    Take away the cars.

    Disarm the public.

    Get rid of alcohol.

    Get rid of drugs.

    Force all expectant mothers (especially single ones) into prenatal care.

    Force all new mothers (especially single ones) to seek and receive neonatal care for their babies, and force them to take courses on how to feed and care for the little bastards.

    And, while you’re at it, burn the constitution.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Dan(Miller),

    I have read your first comment fully, and please let me tell you just how happy I am to see that you appear to be in complete remission. I really enjoy your thoughts and presence here at BC. You and I never would have met in other circumstances, and I respect your knowledge.

    [The version currently pushed by President Obama, which is said generally to follow the Senate version, would require that I buy U.S. approved health insurance or pay a tax penalty. I don’t need it, don’t want it and couldn’t even use it if I had it. I reside]

    This is my main point of contention to Obama’s health care plan, it uses too many of the Senates ideas, which deal primarily with policing costs for Medicare and Medicaid, while allowing the insurers to reign in even more profit at our expense. I never said in my article that I was all for the health care plan being presented to us in its’ present form.

    My health care differs greatly from my husbands because I do have single payer. I have VA health care, and am very happy with my choices and ability to control my own care, along with my doctors. I visit a brand new VA clinic, and unlike what Fox is attempting to report, it is not an antiquated system bogged down by mountains of paperwork. When you enter a VA health facility, they treat you with respect, the doctors and nurses share all the information available on the computer screen with the patient. You don’t feel as though you are in the dark concerning your care.

    [Expansion of local clinics to take care of people who would otherwise go to hospital emergency rooms for minor problems at far greater cost makes sense. They clog up the emergency rooms and delay care for those truly in need of emergency room treatment. We have such local clinics here, in abundance.]

    Yes, the VA’s use of satellite clinics to care for veterans in their own communities unclogs the larger VA hospitals and makes care much more cost effective. The veteran also enjoys a much more personal doctor-patient relationship with their health care provider, and an increased sense of control over their own health care.

    [Preconditions are unfortunate and it would be great if there were none.]

    There are no exclusions in the VA. They cover me, for a medical condition that I contracted prior to my enlisted service. A doctor in the VA health care system has ever said to me, that begin tumors are excluded, live with them.

    [The U.S. medical insurance bureaucracy is enormous and cumbersome, and at least in my own experience, does not provide the personal — human-to-human — contact I enjoy here.]

    Yes, compared to the VA, the private insurance industry is huge, cumbersome, and dehumanizing. In the for-profit model of health care, they treat you like a number, a bottom-line, and definitely as a consumer.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Clavos,

    I see where I need to show possession. You know that I only have one husband.

    [My health care differs greatly from my husbands’ because I do have single payer.]

    I’ll keep working towards this goal of improvement in writing, until I get it right.

    Thanks again, Clavos, for all the work you have done with me.

    :]nite

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy
  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Glenn,

    So I’m supposed to tell my oldest son, “tough s**t, just don’t get sick”? Having had rheumatic fever and subsequent damage to his heart, there’s no insurance plan that he can afford. However, if he were in any other first-world democracy on the planet he’d have no problem at all getting health care.

    This is the world your son would face in most “first world” democracies (Australia and New Zealand excluded). Enjoy the read!! My suggestion? Contact Stan Denham and have him put you in touch with Australian immigrant authorities. Have a great Sunday!

  • pablo

    Interesting article. Just a couple of trivial questions Jeanie. Why no mention of the criminal sanctions that will be imposed on millions of self employed americans if they do not want to buy health insurance, as in 5 years in jail?

    Also where in the constitution does congress derive it authority to mandate that people buy health insurance from private corporations? There is no precedent for this in US federal law.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Gee whiz, Pablo! You is not supposed to ask questions like that! It’s not politically cowwect! Where’s your manners??!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronious,

    RE.29- I don’t agree that,in a single-payer system, you have no incentive to keep the price down, and neither does the doctor. That’s my worry.-Baronius

    Here is why:

    [People will seek care earlier when chronic diseases such as hypertension and diabetes are more treatable. We know that both the uninsured and many of those with skimpy private coverage delay care because they are afraid of health care bills. This will be eliminated under such a system. Undoubtedly the costs of taking care of the medical needs of people who are currently skimping on care will cost more money in the short run. However, all of these new costs to cover the uninsured and improve coverage for the insured will be fully offset by administrative savings.

    In the long run, the best way to control costs is to improve health planning to assure appropriate investments in expensive, high-tech care, to negotiate fees and budgets with doctors, hospital and drug companies, and to set and enforce a generous but finite overall budget.]-( Source: pnhp org/facts/single-payer-faq )

    I urge you to consider the benefits of a true preventative based health care system, instead of this for-profit model that most of us have to rely on right now. Of course, this is if we are fortunate to have any insurance and no one has excluded us for any preexisting conditions. This interactive map shows how high blood pressure, asthma, and diabetes can exclude you from any affordable care.

    We are an industrialized nation and yet we have third world class health care.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Pablo,

    Please read the link provided in the article in-order to look that answer up for yourself.(this is one of my points, Pablo, the policing concerns, rather than actual health care improvements.)

    Sorry, but I have a back injury and can only sit up for short periods of time right now.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    [Health Care is not just another commodity. It is not a gift to be rationed based on the ability to pay. It is time to make universal health insurance a national priority, so that the basic right to health care can finally become a reality for every American]-Ted Kennedy, U.S. Senator

  • Baronius

    Zing, I’m the one who brought up how Limbaugh hides behind his role as an entertainer. So I’m not going to bet on whether I agree with something I said before you did. I honestly believe that Limbaugh and Stewart are entertainers with political agendas. When I call them entertainers, I’m not denying the fact that they promote a specific ideology.

    Let me put it this way. All communications perform one or more of these three functions: inform, entertain, and persuade. Stewart and Rush attempt to do all three. Would you agree?

  • Clavos

    Jeannie,

    Thanks for your acknowledgments of my editing efforts on your behalf.

    In re the VA, a couple of points gleaned from my more than two decades as a VA patient by dint of conditions connected to my service in Vietnam, and my wife’s more than a decade employment as a manager at a total of three VA medical centers in as many different cities (two states):

    The VA serves, at present, a population of only 5.5 million patients nationwide. It’s 2010 Health Care budget (which is separate from its Compensation and Pension budget) is $112.8 Billion. Do the math: the VA is spending more than $20,500 annually per patient. This includes patients like Baritone, you and me, (the vast majority are outpatients like us) who require relatively little sophisticated, expensive treatment. This particular single payer system, as is usually the case with government endeavors, is grossly expensive.

    Additionally, while I don’t doubt that you receive the fine level of care you claim, it is a well-known fact that VA health care is spotty, and varies widely from location to location. Here in Miami, for example, thousands of vets were unnecessarily exposed last year to HIV and other diseases because of ongoing failure to properly sterilize colonoscopy ‘scopes between examinations. Several vets actually were infected. Sterilization of equipment between uses is basic medicine, it’s not rocket science. There are legitimate complaints by the tens of thousands annually regarding VA health care from the veterans themselves, and suicide rates among veterans under VA care are cause for considerable concern.

    The VA is second only to the Department of Defense in size among Cabinet departments. It is a ponderous, bloated bureaucracy, and anything but efficient and cost effective.

    But hey, it’s a single payer system.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Dan(Miller),

    I understand and agree with the exclusion of preconditions….Preconditions are unfortunate and it would be great if there were none. It would also be great if nobody needed medical attention and if nobody had congenital disabilities. These perfect conditions do not exist. However, were all preconditions required to be covered the cost of insurance would increase, significantly I think. Somebody has to pay for such things, through higher insurance premiums or higher taxes.

    If we’re going to not cover some people why not just cover no one for anything? Your wife can get covered for $78/year for cancer because she doesn’t have it. Why is her life worth more than yours? Let’s just do away with health care entirely then it won’t cost anything. Think of how much stuff you can buy to fill up your house with all the savings.

    Somebody has to pay for such things, through higher insurance premiums or higher taxes.

    The other choice is some people pay with their lives. It doesn’t seem like a tough decision.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronius,

    RE.44 is waiting patiently for you in this thread. Why do you continually try to flip this debate away from health care and towards, who is a comedian and who is not?

    If I wanted to place this much importance on Limbaugh, then I would have written an article about him, and it wouldn’t be very funny.

    The only reason I posted Rush’s idiotic statement was to show just how out of touch he really is, with the suffering of others because of this health care crisis.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Clavos,

    I don’t doubt your knowledge of the VA system and I know that it is not perfect, but we need single payer or the second best choice, a public option. Both of which are not present at the table.

    This is very disappointing to millions of Americans.

    I’m sorry that I can’t sit up long enough to read the links you’ve provided, or to make sure that my punctuation is correct.

    :)Now don’t start telling me to do the math, because then we will have another problem with each-other.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Cindy,

    Excellent comment! All of our lives are equally important.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Clavos,

    My little article here was featured in the political highlights section yesterday morning, now it is no longer there. Can I request that it go back in that line-up?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Also, why is there a, /2 after my URl? I don’t see it on any others here?

    I will be back later.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Clavos,

    This statement is very general and vague.

    The VA is second only to the Department of Defense in size among Cabinet departments. It is a ponderous, bloated bureaucracy, and anything but efficient and cost effective.

    The VA serves our nations’ veterans, who rightly deserve the same quality of health care as our, over bureaucratic Senate and elected officials enjoy.

    Once you serve in this government, you are afforded the best health care that the American taxpayer is forced to pay for.
    The streamlining of our countries health care system should start with them, not with torte reform or forcing everyone to line the pockets of the insurance companies with more, consumers.

    Once again, Eric Cantor, while speaking on Face the Nation this morning, was more concerned with saving the doctors’ liability insurance costs, rather than giving all Americans the type of coverage that they deserve.

    I say to Mr. Cantor, “Give up your single payer health insurance, if we can not also have it.”

  • Clavos

    Jeannie, your URL has a 2 after it because the title had to be changed after publication (it had a period at the end, which I missed when I first published it).

  • Clavos

    This statement is very general and vague.

    The VA is second only to the Department of Defense in size among Cabinet departments. It is a ponderous, bloated bureaucracy, and anything but efficient and cost effective.

    Nothing vague about it, it’s our second largest department, period, and this is so stated in the source linked.

    The VA serves our nations’ veterans, who rightly deserve the same quality of health care as our, over bureaucratic Senate and elected officials enjoy.

    I agree with you. The thing is, the veterans are NOT getting the same level and quality of medical attention; the Senators and Congressmen (and 9 million government employees and retirees) are getting a far superior level, their government-paid insurance, titled the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program (FEHBP), which is used by them to obtain treatment in the private sector.

    The VA level of care is not now, and never has been, as good as top private medical care, which is what the gummint officials and workers enjoy.

    Here’s a good description of the superiority of the FEHBP:

    The FEHBP and Medicare both are large programs run by the federal government, but the similarity ends there. The FEHBP is not experiencing the severe financial problems faced by Medicare. It is run by a very small bureaucracy that, unlike Medicare’s, does not try to set prices for doctors and hospitals. It offers choices of modern benefits and private plans to federal retirees (and active workers) that are unavailable in Medicare. It provides comprehensive information to enrollees. And it uses a completely different payment system that blends a formula with negotiations to achieve a remarkable level of cost control while constantly improving benefits and enjoying wide popularity.

    That’s a hell of a lot better than what the VA offers us.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Clavos –

    As I’ve explained innumerable times before, these two circumstances are essentially unrelated. The US’ miserable life expectancy is due far more to lifestyle issues than the quality of health care here, which is actually superior to most other countries’.

    Your excuse here sounds just like what a baseball coach might claim when his team’s doing really poor despite having the best players in the game.

    Hm. Let me think about that REAL hard. America, which DOES have the best health care in the world, is 38th (we were 37th in 2008) on the life-expectancy list…and there is only ONE truly major difference between us and the rest of the first-world democracies that comprise all but one of the top thirty countries on the list: they have single-payer systems and we don’t.

    So I will nullify every one of your claims below. Again.

    You want to extend life expectancy here? Outlaw fast food, trans fats, sugar and all but the necessary levels of carbs.

    WRONG! That’s a pretty cheesy excuse, if you’ll pardon the pun. You claim it’s our diet? Have you ever tried English food? Or Irish? Or Cuban? They’re ALL above us on the list. England’s chock-full of fast-food just like us, and trans fats, sugar, and carbs are just as present in their diets as in ours. In fact, this list of countries by consumption of sugar shows that America consumption of sugar is fifteen percent LESS than that of the European Union!

    As always, the conservative opinion has nothing to do with FACT.

    Take away the cars.

    WRONG! Have you EVER been to South Korea? There’s a reason why they have a significantly higher traffic death rate than we do…yet they have a significantly higher life expectancy than we do. Sure, there are several first-world democracies that have lower vehicle death rates than we do…but there also some that have HIGHER death rates. We’re roughly one death per 100K people higher than Iceland, New Zealand, Bosnia, and Portugal. Furthermore, the number of actual deaths by vehicle accidents – a very small fraction of the annual deaths in America – doesn’t even come close to being enough to significantly affect our national life expectancy!

    As before, conservative opinion has little to do with FACT.

    Disarm the public.

    Yeah, we ARE worse off than ANY other first-world democracy when it comes to gun violence (thanks to the we-must-have-our-toys conservatives)…but as with the previous excuse you listed, the number of actual deaths by firearms – an even smaller fraction of the annual deaths in America – doesn’t even come close to being enough to significantly affect our national life expectancy! Even if you add all these little excuses together, the total is STILL not significant enough to explain the disparity in national life expectancy!

    Get rid of alcohol.

    WRONG! This one was REAL easy. America has a significantly LOWER rate of alcohol consumption than most of Western Europe.

    But don’t let the facts get in the way of your delusions, now!

    Get rid of drugs.

    WRONG! Australia and New Zealand use a lot more weed than we do, and this chart shows we do NOT have a significantly worse drug problem than most other first-world democracies.

    But don’t you listen to the FACTS, now – ’cause you might lose your ‘conservative card’!

    Force all expectant mothers (especially single ones) into prenatal care. Force all new mothers (especially single ones) to seek and receive neonatal care for their babies, and force them to take courses on how to feed and care for the little bastards.

    WRONG! Did you know that America’s rate of prenatal care is BETTER than most of Western Europe’s? We’re tied with France!

    But keep on ignoring those FACTS, now! Conservative delusion is FAR better for American than FACTS!

    And, while you’re at it, burn the constitution.

    Last I recall, the Declaration said something about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. First on that list was LIFE…and frankly, that’s a bit of a stronger mandate than guns for anything other than a well-regulated militia.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Clavos –

    So…since I’ve taken away all your excuses, what are you going to use now to explain why we have a significantly lower national life expectancy than most of the rest of the first-world democracies?

    Are you going to claim it’s illegal immigrants? I’m ready for that one!

    Boy oh boy oh boy, I just can’t wait to see you dig your way out of this one!

  • Clavos

    Sorry, Jeannie, my #48 didn’t include the link to the VA’s own Fact Sheet, which, regarding its size, states in part:

    Among all departments and agencies of the federal government, only the Department of Defense has a larger work force.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Glenn,

    The point about “taking away the cars” may have been that we could use more exercise.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Clavos,

    In re. to #56, Oh, never mind.

    In re. to #57, Then we should all be advocating FEHBP!

    I can’t wait until my back can tolerate more typing! This FEHBP looks very promising.:)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Clavos,

    Yes, the VA has a large workforce, but thanks to the fact that they can’t out-source all of us, a lot people have jobs.

    Don’t you want people to work?

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Roger –

    If that’s the point, then I would merely point to the greater use of mass transit in Europe, where the passengers still ride a moving vehicle. In any event, the overall effect is not enough to significantly change our national life expectancy.

    And if one also considers our lower national rate of alcohol consumption and our better national rate of prenatal care, this all the more begs the question of exactly what – other than the fact that we don’t have a single-payer system – is serious enough to affect our entire national life expectancy as a whole!

    Roger, conservatives hate facts. I hope they still work for you.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Jeannie –

    Clavos’ use of the VA system is a strawman.

    A single-payer system wouldn’t be modeled on such because many VA hospitals are government-run. The more important example is Medicare where – just like almost all single-payer systems in the Free World – the government merely manages the money flow to the doctors that the citizens themselves have chosen to use…and witness how the conservative politicians are now complaining about the ‘massive’ cuts Obama’s making to Medicare.

    Gotta watch those conservatives – they’re very, very good at building strawmen.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Glenn,

    I have to chime in here before I go.

    Isn’t it also due to Ronald Reagans’ lowering of the school lunch programs’ standards thirty years ago, that has led us to a generation that’s now more obese and facing a shorter life expectancy than us?

    I just wanted to know if you also agree with the Department of Agriculture’s’ finding, because I do!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Yes, Straw men. What about Straw women? Sarah Palin?

    :)bye, before I get yelled at!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Glenn,

    You know what I think about facts – they can be used to support any conclusion.

    You’re still missing the point that our dependence on the automobile is a major cause of our sedentary lifestyle. And that’s a fact, Jack, to use your pet terminology.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    John Stewart is the Will Rogers of our time. He’s not some bleeding heart liberal the Conservatives would have you believe just as Rush Limbaugh is not the Rabid Conservative he portrays on the airwaves. It’s all entertainment – a grab for ratings and revenues. These people are equal whores in the corporate funding cluster fuck known as American politics.

    So what do we do? Folks, the answers aren’t easy but they’re clear. We need a wholesale change of personnel in Congress. Then we need to politely ask the lobbyists to leave the building. If they do not comply, we use force by executing our rights as citizens at the ballot box. There are plenty of ideas on both sides of the aisle which have merit. I refuse to accept the notion that there is no room for compromise. There can be compromise once the electorate refuses to compromise on getting the incumbents out of office.

    I’m also going to throw this out there for discussion. Perhaps it is time to look toward someone outside our system to craft a comprehensive health care reform program. Outgoing Chilean President Michelle Bachelet is my nominee to chair such a cause. Check her out… she’s amazing.

    And, like it or not, it’s time to bring other political parties to the electoral table — including Socialists, Communists, Atheists, Greens, Independents and LIBERTARIANS. It’s time to disembowel the GOP and the Democrats — especially the GOP which is gearing up for Mitt Romney’s 2 year quest for the Oval Office 2012. If you think corporate America is a problem now — wait. A Romney Presidency will effectively make the United States an oligarchy. Say goodbye to Democracy and the principles of the Founding Fathers and say hello to Burger King, Bain Capital and Mormonia. I would rather be a citizen of Cuba under Castro’s totalitarian rule than under the leadership of Mitt “Joe Smith” Romney. At least in Cuba I can get prescriptions from American pharma for cheap bucks and basic health care that doesn’t bankrupt me.

  • Clavos

    Glenn,

    As usual you cherry pick your “FACTS.”

    Here are some “FACTS” for you.

    You say:

    You claim it’s our diet? Have you ever tried English food? Or Irish? Or Cuban? They’re ALL above us on the list. England’s chock-full of fast-food just like us, and trans fats, sugar, and carbs are just as present in their diets as in ours. In fact, this list of countries by consumption of sugar shows that America consumption of sugar is fifteen percent LESS than that of the European Union!

    So what? Bad diet leads to obesity, which leads to any number of potentially fatal conditions, and guess which nation, according to the OECD, is the fattest in the WORLD?? Yep, that’s right, weighing in (pun intended) at 30.6% of the population, the good ol’ USA!!

    You say,

    WRONG! Have you EVER been to South Korea? There’s a reason why they have a significantly higher traffic death rate than we do

    Well, perhaps, according to your Wikipedia source, but we all know how unreliable Wiki can be at times. Once again, according to OECD, the king of road deaths, at 15.5 per 100,000 population is, yep, USA!!

    And you also say:

    Did you know that America’s rate of prenatal care is BETTER than most of Western Europe’s? We’re tied with France!

    Well, perhaps, but again, misleading. According to the CDC,

    In 2004 (the latest year that data are available for all countries), the United States ranked 29th in the world in infant mortality, tied with Poland and Slovakia. Poland! and Slovakia!!! Sheesh!

    Here are the developed countries which beat the USA:

    Japan
    Sweden
    Spain(!)
    France!!
    Germany
    Australia
    England and Wales
    Canada

    And, the CDC says, infant mortality is the single greatest contributing factor to a nation’s life expectancy rate.

    I’ll give you the alcohol; Europeans (especially Northern Europeans) are much bigger drunks than Americans.

    You say:

    Australia and New Zealand use a lot more weed than we do…

    Well, maybe so, but I’ve never heard of anybody dying from smoking pot…

    Drug-related fatality data is not easy to find, but this article in Science Daily does indicate that the USA has the highest per capita use of cocaine in the world.

    In sum, no one factor among those I mentioned accounts for the USA’s relatively low life expectancy, but taken together, and in the aggregate, they likely are behind it.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Silas,

    Your comment has a lot of meat to it, but if we can’t get past this two party power struggle, then how would we convince people that the word, Socialist is not a dirty word?

    Also, the word communist would freak everyone out, me included in that group!

    No, the most radical idea that can be posed here is an end to the stupidity of this mindless soulless entity called, for-profit health care.

    Mitt Romney? I think people on Jay Lenos’ Jay Walking are smart enough not to vote him in, aren’t they?

  • Baronius

    Jeannie, don’t take non-responses personally. The fact is, I just haven’t had time to read the whole thread. Also, it looks like Clavos and Dan(Miller) are making the points I would if I were sober. Um, I mean, if I were keeping up with the thread. Anyway, we’ve been debating health care around here for years, intensely so for months, and I find the Limbaugh/Stewart argument to be more interesting. That’s one of the tough things about putting an article out: you can’t control where the thread will go.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Your comment has a lot of meat to it, but if we can’t get past this two party power struggle, then how would we convince people that the word, “socialist” is not a dirty word?

    Jeannie,

    It would be nice if you and the others ranting and raving on this comment thread even understood what socialism is and how it works. You don’t. And you don’t comprehend the difference between worker ownership in a private market and state ownership and direction of an economy. And finally, you do not comprehend why socialism has never worked in the United States, and why it is not likely to.

    Jeannie, it goes way beyond “socialism being a bad word.”

    And I, a socialist, am telling you this.

  • Clavos

    …many VA hospitals are government-run

    Actually, ALL are government owned and operated, but with civilian personnel, most of whom are veterans themselves.

    As to the alleged straw man nature of my response regarding the VA, that comment was in response to Jeannie’s #38, in which she pointed out that the VA is a single payer system, which Glenn correctly remarks that it is not, since it is government owned and operated. So, if it’s a straw man, it’s Jeannie’s straw man.

    …Medicare where – just like almost all single-payer systems in the Free World – the government merely manages the money flow to the doctors…

    More accurately, it mismanages it, to the tune of allowing $60 billion a year in fraud to get by, according to the FBI and other government investigative agencies.

    Of course, in these days of $787 billion ineffective stimuli, and $1.3 trillion deficits, I suppose $60 billion in fraud is just chump change.

  • Clavos

    One last point:

    As a Libertarian (Not a conservative, Glenn) I do not consider health care to be a “right.”

    It is not mentioned anywhere in the Constitution.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Cindy,

    I said, “Somebody has to pay for such things, through higher insurance premiums or higher taxes.”

    You said, The other choice is some people pay with their lives. It doesn’t seem like a tough decision.

    It may well be a tough question. The focus of this thread is on health care, but there are very many other contexts in which people pay with their lives. Statistically, when a new major highway or bridge is built, when people use automobiles, fly on airplanes or do just about anything else some of them will have accidents and die. Those who do are not statistics. They are dead humans, many of whom had families injured emotionally and financially as a result.

    Some of these accidents might be prevented by spending “reasonable” additional amounts of money. Some other accidents might be prevented by spending more than that. However, no matter how much might be spent, there will still be accidental deaths and injuries.

    Here is a thought. The standard IRS Form 1040 has boxes to check if “you, or you spouse is filing jointly, want $3.00 to go to” help fund presidential campaigns.” If both boxes are checked, $6.00 goes to the presidential campaign fund. This costs the individual taxpayer nothing directly. However, federal funds so designated have to come from somewhere; ultimately, taxes paid by everyone go into the pot. Here is my modest proposal:

    Keep the boxes but require those who check them to pay increased taxes in the amounts of $3.00 for individual filers and $6.00 for joint filers; alternatively, they could volunteer to pay a greater or lesser amount. In either case, they would then be putting their own money where their mouths are. Those who like federal presidential campaign funding could check the boxes and pay for it. Those who don’t would not check the boxes and would not have to pay, directly or even indirectly.

    Add additional boxes which, if checked, would provide funding for any number of things, such as medical coverage of those with preexisting conditions, abortions, flight safety, better lunches for the homeless and most anything else. Again, those who think they should pay for them would do so and those who don’t wouldn’t have to. There is no such thing as a free lunch, but if enough people were to check the “free lunch” boxes then there could be.

    This would be true democracy in action, and the voices of the people would be heard to a far greater extent than at present.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    clavos,

    That looks impressive, but does the CDC mention:

    What about the lack of natural foods in our diets?

    What about the amount of high-fructose corn syrup in all of our foods and drinks?

    The rancid hydrogenated oils present in everything, even Girl Scout cookies?

    What about the steroids and overuse of antibiotics in our poultry and beef?

    The out-sourcing of our childrens’ school lunches?

    The fast food devoid of any nutrition that we consume?

    The refined sugars?

    This reliance on processed prepared foods, until nobody can even remember how to cook?

    You we want to talk about Cocaine.

    Let me ask you, “Do you know
    Who brought it here, in the first place?”

    Every aspect of this society has been reduced to a profit model!

    Well, I am not buying it anymore and I don’t believe I am alone.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Single payer health care now! The same kind Dick Cheney has!

    :[Bye

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    As a Libertarian (Not a conservative, Glenn) I do not consider health care to be a “right.”

    I totally understand the point and heartily maintain that there comes a time when a society becomes so large that modifications must be made for the common good. As “anti-Libertarian” as health care for all may be, it is the most common sense approach. A single payer system is a win-win for all sides and takes millions of dollars out of the political process which means SAVINGS to the consumer.

    Further, this latest economic debacle has proven without a shadow of doubt that our financial regulatory system is corrupt, mismanaged and just plain immoral. What do we do? We place ceilings on how much a corporation can accumulate before it is forced to break apart. Why? Because no corporation from Wal-Mart to Bank of America should be allowed to grow so big that failure would cripple the economy. Imagine Wal-Mart going bankrupt. It would kill this country. And the upper-middle class would suffer the most — and THOSE consumers don’t even shop there!

    These are my priorities for the last year of this Session of Congress:

    1. Campaign finance reform including strictly regulated lobbyist access to members of Congress and their aides which is completely transparent along with vocal recordings of those meetings which are available for public review.

    2. Health care reform which includes single payer and public health options which include a mandate for health care prevention and maintenance in conjunction with public education reform.

    3. a. Organized labor reform which decentralizes union management power and refers more individual rights to Union members in decision making decisions. Included is a monthly disclosure of all Union finds disbursed per political candidate which is available for any member of the general public to review.

    b. Education reform which centralizes the administration on state levels with input of the locals in an open, transparent process. Millions are spent on School Committees, bureaucracies and political hack jobs. Create an “enterprise education zone” where state institutions of higher learning develop and administer public education. Let’s give our kids a fighting chance from Pre-K through the Master’s Degree. It’s time to start acting like Sam Walton and buying in bulk the things our kids need to obtain the education they deserve.

    4. Financial regulatory reform which includes an overhaul of the system. No financial institution may be allowed to accumulate so much that failure would cripple the economy. Ceilings need to be put in place and when a company reaches it, it must break apart into two separate entities — anti-trust, stupid. Also, just as there must be truth in lending, there MUST be truth in legislation where each bill must not include any “ear marks”. All ear marks must be presented in public bills and available for public review for 60 days before debate and vote.

    5. Complete disengagement in the political affairs of countries in the Middle East. Allow Israel their right to self rule and to use military force when necessary to preserve their national security. And to every Arab nation which refuses to recognize the right of the State of Israel to exist, we should urge debate, discussion and restraint. But an act of terror or war upon Israel should not be the responsibility of the US.

    P.S. Then I want world peace and a Cadillac.

  • Clavos

    A single payer system is a win-win for all sides and takes millions of dollars out of the political process which means SAVINGS to the consumer.

    Not if modeled on Medicare, Silas. Medicare routinely grossly overpays for services (I know this from direct personal experience over a period of 4+ years, plus a myriad of reports in the media recently) and is also routinely ripped off by its suppliers because of lax (or nonexistent) oversight by CMS, Medicare’s billing service.

  • Clavos

    Jeannie,

    In re the food in this country:

    That’s exactly what I was talking about — we have terrible dietary habits which result in out being the fattest people on Earth, which in turn increases our rates of diabetes, heart disease, and a myriad of other maladies.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Not if modeled on Medicare, Silas.

    Never said Medicare didn’t need change, Clavos. There is plenty of bureaucracy which could be streamlined. What has always lacked in Medicare is enforcement. Once again the lack thereof is a direct result of special interest campaign financing. Don’t want to sound like a broken record but every issue which ails this nation is directly attributable to the members of Congress and their hunger for K Street dollar$.

  • zingzing

    baronius: “Let me put it this way. All communications perform one or more of these three functions: inform, entertain, and persuade. Stewart and Rush attempt to do all three. Would you agree?”

    i don’t think stewart is trying to persuade anyone. i’m not sure that rush is either, half the time. he, and some of his listeners, view it as gospel truth. stewart is trying to entertain, and views the “news” portion of his show the way that it should be viewed: an opportunity for a joke. rush doesn’t do anything like that.

  • Clavos

    Oh c’mon, zing, you’re not naive.

    Of course both of them are trying to persuade; Stewart isn’t even subtle about it, nor are or were satirists like him who came before him, and Rushbaugh certainly is proselytizing.

  • Baronius

    Zing, you know how every once in a while we reach one of those impasses where the only thing we can do is look at each other like we’re crazy, and move on? I like to think that in 20 years, you’ll be sitting around, and suddenly think, “wow, I was completely wrong; no wonder Baronius thought I was crazy”.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    clavos,

    I really yelled in that comment, and now I’m sorry that I didn’t read it aloud to myself first, but you understood it.

    The point I’m driving towards here is, that the CDC, FDA, and all of the government departments could do this country a lot of good, instead of the harm that I see them doing today. By turning their blind eyes away from the obvious truth, our country is now sold to the highest bidders, the most powerful lobby groups, and the wealthiest investors. We could be so much more than the shareholders’ bottom lines, but we’re not.

    We are only as free, as our government is strong, and we are that government!

    Therefore, while some want to tear it all up and start all over, that is not an option. Work with what you’ve got, and make that better than you found it. That is the political challenge of today.

    :] God I have a big mouth, don’t I?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronius,

    Are you still going on about Rush? Mingya, you must really like that guy. Now, I’m sorry that I insulted him.

    What about my re to #29?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Dan (Miller),

    That is a really good idea concerning the little boxes on tax return forms. We would check them off, as it is now we always refuse.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    zingzing,

    What?

    i don’t think stewart is trying to persuade anyone. i’m not sure that rush is either, half the time. he, and some of his listeners, view it as gospel truth.

    Rush isn’t trying to influence people? Then, what was he doing at C-PAC?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Jeannie Danna

    I have not checked them for years because I think it is a rotten system which keeps the same folks in power. I think it would be far better if (a) there were multiple options and (b) checking the little boxes required us to put our money where our mouths (OK, fountain pens) are.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Yes Dan(Miller),

    I think we would all do that.

    Did you read my response to your first comment? I really am glad that you are in remission, so many people never get to make it to that point.

    You need to write an article, so I can bug you. :)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    A goodnight song

    :] nite, BC

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Rush isn’t trying to influence people? Then, what was he doing at C-PAC?

    He was making a promotional appearance for his radio show broadcast on the E.I.B. – Excels In Bullshit Radio Network.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Jeannie Danna,

    Yes, I read your comment and I appreciate your concern and statement. Strange though it may be, when I had an appointment with my surgeon after a biopsy, he entered his office and I stood up to shake hands. I said, “how are you. More important, how am I?” He responded, “Oh sit down. You have cancer.” No BS, and that’s what I very much liked and like about him.

    I prefer to think of myself as cancer free, but remission may be more accurate.

    As to an article, maybe I will write one this week. I don’t off hand know about what, but I will try to think of something.

    Our political philosophies seem quite different, but perhaps there are some common grounds.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Can I come and bug Dan(Miller) with you Jeannie?

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    God Bar, I don’t see how you can imagine that Stewart and Limbaugh are in anyway alike.

    Does Rush play to a live audience? Does he have set up comedy bits? Does he have guests that do spoofs of political issues?
    No. All he does is pontificate and insult vast #s of people. Where in his cheek do you find his tongue?

    He is a bigot and a cheap shot artist. His humor is doggeral. Stewart’s counts as wit. Tremendous difference.

    B

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “I like to think that in 20 years, you’ll be sitting around, and suddenly think, ‘wow, I was completely wrong; no wonder Baronius thought I was crazy’.”

    No shock that you put it on zing to change his mind.

  • Zedd

    Great article Jennie!

    My greatest contention is withe the Democrats in congress. They are not serious. There is absolutely no reason why this bill is in the condition that it is in right now. There is no reason for the party and the Prez to be getting hammered in the polls when the Reps have been bumbling for over a decade and still don’t seem to have a sense of who they are and what they really stand for.

    Yes, the Reps have brought nothing to the table, but how long has it been really when they have had anything lucid to add other than irresponsible maneuvers and paranoid, Hollywood induced clamour. In other words, we are used to their goofiness (ballsy as it is ???). The Dems however, what is their excuse?

  • Zedd

    Dan(M)

    Would you suggest that we create the same check box for those who want their children be educated in public school?

  • Zedd

    Bar,

    I don’t think you watch Stewart. He is really hard on whomever is the target for the day regardless of party affiliation. If you’ve heard him being interviewed you’d have a better sense of his stance. He is not as staunchly liberal as you think. What may have confused you is his attack of the Reps, especially in the prev administration… come on, what comedian would or could pass all of that up? GW was a gift to all comedians both near and far. Also, you have to understand Stewart’s humor. His this is “duh…hellllo”. Sara Palin, GW, gay airport men’s bathroom activity, Pat Robinson, Falwell, need I say more … come on.. duh, helllllo! Fodder!!!

  • Zedd

    Baritone,

    Have you become a believer? I see you are crying to the Lord on behalf of Bar.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    GW was a gift to all comedians both near and far.

    Unfortunately, Americans have short memories and no concept of reality which is why main stream media pundits are predicting a wave of Bush Nostalgia this fall when Dubya’s memoirs come out. I’ll wait for the Classics Illustrated Comic Edition.

    But, in all fairness, there were many good things that G.W. Bush accomplished for which he will never get credit within our borders. His work on AIDS in Africa is a classic example. The Progressives hate him so much, they’ll never give him credit. And the Far Right wishes AIDS killed more of us, so they’ll never give him credit. I guess that is the classic example of Dubya being caught between a rock (G.H.W. Bush) and a hard place (Dick Cheney’s heart).

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    This is for Dan(Miller).

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Clavos –

    Been cherry-picking yourself lately? Yep! That, and while you do bring up some good points, you completely ignore other points…and sometimes misunderstand your own references.

    Yes, we ARE the fattest country on the planet – I never said we weren’t, did I?

    But I’m going to tie all this together for you with a neat little knot at the end of this reply.

    Well, perhaps, according to your Wikipedia source, but we all know how unreliable Wiki can be at times. Once again, according to OECD, the king of road deaths, at 15.5 per 100,000 population is, yep, USA!!

    Well, gee, that’s funny…especially since YOUR reference – nationmaster – got their data from a 2002 OECD study…whereas the Wikipedia entry I used got their data from a 2009 study by the World Health Organization. And I’ve got a little interesting something at the end of this reply…but let’s get to your next claim.

    Well, perhaps, but again, misleading. According to the CDC,
    In 2004 (the latest year that data are available for all countries), the United States ranked 29th in the world in infant mortality, tied with Poland and Slovakia. Poland! and Slovakia!!! Sheesh!
    Here are the developed countries which beat the USA:
    Japan, Sweden, Spain(!), France!!, Germany, Australia, England and Wales, [and] Canada.

    Well, it’s sorta frustrating that you didn’t leave a link…because I’ve just spent fifteen minutes trying to find a statistic to back you up…but did you really think about what what you said? I don’t think so, because YOU’RE PROVING MY POINT! You listed several single-payer countries that have better infant-mortality rates…and when you check the list according to the CIA World Factbook (the reference used by the oh-so-unreliable Wikipedia), we’re 33rd place…and nearly every country in Western Europe has a better rate than ours.

    Now WHY would this prove my point? Who gets better prenatal care? In America, where one-sixth of the population is uninsured and must choose whether to skip care or to pay for it out-of-pocket? Or in the rest of the first-world democracies, where NO woman has to choose between paying the rent and paying for prenatal care!

    And, the CDC says, infant mortality is the single greatest contributing factor to a nation’s life expectancy rate.

    And YOU proved that countries with socialized health care have MUCH better infant mortality rates than America. THANKS FOR PROVING MY POINT, CLAVOS!

    I’ll give you the alcohol; Europeans (especially Northern Europeans) are much bigger drunks than Americans.

    And don’t forget the sugar…AND SMOKING, too, because half of Western Europe AND Japan AND South Korea have higher smoking rates than America does! So are you going to claim that smoking has no bearing on the matter?

    Drug-related fatality data is not easy to find, but this article in Science Daily does indicate that the USA has the highest per capita use of cocaine in the world.

    Sure, I’ll give you that.

    In sum, no one factor among those I mentioned accounts for the USA’s relatively low life expectancy, but taken together, and in the aggregate, they likely are behind it.

    So why don’t you do the math? Let’s pretend that we had NO traffic deaths and NO drug use deaths (from legal or illegal drugs).

    All illicit drug use deaths (CDC 2006): 38,396

    From the same CDC reference, all vehicle deaths: 45,316

    That’s a total of 83,712 for 2006…and I suspect our current rate really isn’t that much different. Our current death rate is (according to the CIA Factbook) is 8.38 per 1,000…which equates to slightly more than 2,587,000 deaths this past year.

    So if we get rid of ALL traffic deaths and ALL drug use deaths, we’ll get slightly more than 2.5M deaths per year…and I’ll even take away the extra 4K deaths to make the math easier…and you STILL get 8.09 deaths per 1,000 people per year.

    And if you’ll check the list of countries by death rates, that doesn’t make much of a difference.

    BUT IN SUMMARY, Clavos, you proved my point. Yeah, we’re the fattest country on earth…but YOUR OWN REFERENCE shows that the most important factor is infant mortality, and the ONLY pregnant women without health insurance in a first-world democracy are found in America!!!! Oh – and remember, this isn’t even taking into account that our national smoking rate is lower than that of quite a few of those other first-world democracies.

    Again, thanks!

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    In 2004 (the latest year that data are available for all countries), the United States ranked 29th in the world in infant mortality, tied with Poland and Slovakia. Poland! and Slovakia!!! Sheesh!

    I guess Babci should have stayed in Poland and I wouldn’t be in this mess.

    …and the ONLY pregnant women without health insurance in a first-world democracy are found in America!!!!

    Do we even go down the abortion route?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Cindy,

    Yes, you can come with me to bug Dan (Miller), in an hour or so I’ll be back here bugging everyone!

    :)Oh, I can’t wait.

  • Clavos

    Sorry to disappoint you,Glenn, but I didn’t prove your point, except in your own mind. The US infant mortality rate is almost totally in the lower, uneducated single mother group, who already have a number of government-run free (to them-not to us-we pay for them) prenatal and neonatal assistance programs available to them, but who do not avail themselves of them. These are people who do make sure they get all the welfare money available for them, the food stamps, etc., yet they don’t take care of themselves when pregnant. That’s ignorance, not lack of availability of free medical help.

    You say, Yeah, we’re the fattest country on earth…, and of course, that’s true, but apparently you don’t think fat Americans get heart disease, or diabetes from being fat, because you dismiss its importance. Strange, since the medical profession is singularly alarmed by the obesity of America.

    Facts in and of themselves are meaningless. What counts is the correct interpretation of them, and you consistently and fallaciously draw a non-existent direct relationship between the existence of government-run health insurance and a population’s life expectancy rates. I say fallaciously because, as I’ve proven several times to you, there are too many factors involved in determining group longevity to be attributed to only one, and there is no data that conclusively proves what you assert.

    It’s called, in the vernacular, jumping to conclusions.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “Facts in and of themselves are meaningless. What counts is the correct interpretation of them . . .”

    Quoted for truth.

    Just consider, Glenn, what would made you ignore the many important relationship alluded to – hypothetical perhaps but surely commonsensical?

    Well, let me suggest one possibility. Perhaps your desire for radical health reform, your utter conviction that such a reform is badly needed, that it’s unjust for a civil society such as ours to be so unconcerned about the well-being of many of its citizens. And you ought to be concerned about the situation, so I say.

    So perhaps you might want to consider expanding your argument. Perhaps you ought to argue on behalf of health reform on other grounds as well, rather than having to rely solely on “facts.”

    Just food for thought.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Clavos,

    I love to jump, in fact, I believe this is my forte.

    We have fostered this notion that all single mothers on welfare are fat and lazy.

    We cry out that welfare for the individual is a bad idea, while simultaneously we pour money into the coffers of the corporate welfare state!

    Ironical, we don’t believe that public education or stagnant living wages have any correlation to these two statements.

    In reality, we are just worried about that almighty buck!

    If anyone here really wants a better America, then how about this idea?

    Live with a little less in your stock portfolios and stop looking down on those that don’t have any investments.

    Invest in America!

    Invest in your future!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    They came up with a couple of replacement words for, reconciliation. These two words are, simple majority.

    Now, if we can put the public option back in this plan for health care reform where it belongs, then we can get to a better place.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    I’d say that, Glenn, has strength in his political beleifs and doesn’t change them every six months in-order to be accepted into the click.

    Way to go, Glenn. You are a fine human being, and I’m honered to agree with you!

    [Perhaps your desire for radical health reform, your utter conviction that such a reform is badly needed, that it’s unjust for a civil society such as ours to be so unconcerned about the well-being of many of its citizens.]

    More food for thought.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    On second thought, I’m probably wasting my breath and hurting my back needlessly trying to be recognized as your equal.

    You appear to now believe that only people with huge vocabularies can even converse with you.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Zedd,

    Thank you for your comment!

    I agree that we should not be in this position right now. While we all wait for the divided Democrats and the stagnant Republicans to forge some sort of reform, people die, go bankrupt, or live without any care.

    Meanwhile those that have will now have even more if this lousy bill goes through!

    Where is the public option? Better yet, why are we still screaming at the top of our lungs for SINGLE PAYER?

    [Oh, think twice cause it’s just another day for you and me in paradise]-Phill Collins

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Something for you, Glenn, along the lines suggested in my comment above:

    “Living with partisanship.”

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    [Health Care is not just another commodity. It is not a gift to be rationed based on the ability to pay. It is time to make universal health insurance a national priority, so that the basic right to health care can finally become a reality for every American]-Ted Kennedy, U.S. Senator

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    This quote was worth repeating.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    So, if we could blend the best of both bills with the public option present, then we could reign in the costs of Medicare/ Medicaid, and make the giant insurers lower that all important bottom line.

    We should be able to choose where we get our insurance from, whether it’s a different state than the one we live in or the government.

    That’s not losing freedom, that’s it!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    That’s gaining it for all of us.

  • Mark

    Glenn, one estimate of excess deaths in the US due to the lack of medical insurance is about 45,000/year, iirc the report in the American Journal of Public Health. Even if, just for shits and gollies, we double that figure, applying your sophistic technique of ‘doing the numbers’ in #104, we find that universal health care wouldn’t alter our international standing on the rate of death chart much.

  • Mark

    (‘universal health care’ should read ‘universal health insurance’ in 119)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Mark,

    Have you called the white House to voice your opinion? (1-202-456-1111 Operators are standing by to take your call.)

    Actually, what is your opinion?

    Adding the words, that much to any mention of a death rate is extremely callous.

    All life is precious, at least this is shouted from the rooftops, when applied to free choice.

    So, why wouldn’t health care for all be considered the same thing? all life is precious!

    I also believe, that you are intelligent enough to answer my questions directly, without any help from Roger.(unless, it’s games as usual.)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Calling the White House today, felt good.

    Please call, 1-202-456-1111 and let your voices be heard!

    Without a public option there really isn’t any reform here.

  • Mark

    My opinion? Capitalism and its government are far greater killers than the lack of health insurance.

    If you’re worried about how precious life is, work toward fundamental change. Further empowering this government will only lead to innumerable ‘excess deaths’.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    How are you working towards fundamental change?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Anarchy is just a romantic notion in 2010; it makes for a great philosophical argument, but there is little meat to it.

    People need real change in this country, the kind that actual health care could bring to them, not just running away, living in the bush, and drinking from sticks.

    You know that that is not an option, so why are you wasting your brains on it?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    innumerable ‘excess death?

    That is every poor soul found frozen to death in a cardboard box, because to help them is seen as a personal affront to one’s financial freedom!

    Why don’t I see the National Anarchy Movement out collecting money to help these people?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    You could do so much better at helping to change this world, if you collected funds for, education, health care, and daycare for working single mothers.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Dan(Miller) made a truly great suggestion yesterday!

    We should use those boxes on our tax return forms to collect funds for health care. I bet everyone, would be willing to part with a mere three or four dollars in order to help end this national crisis.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    This is not a socialist idea, it’s a compassionate solution, to a real crisis.

  • Baronius

    If the Republicans haven’t been bringing any ideas to the table, then where did the Republican portions of the latest bill come from? On the other hand, if they have been making their own proposals, wasn’t the President lying when he said that the other side had no plan?

    In reality, the Republicans were putting forward proposals that were ignored until the health care bill got stuck. (Only five of the proposals on that link were incorporated into the House and Senate bills.) Now that President Obama thinks he needs bipartisan support, he’s accepting some of the GOP proposals. But note that he’s still ignoring what I consider to be the heart of the GOP plan: tort reform, interstate access, and incremental change. Some of the specifics about fraud investigation are good, though.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    There’s no arguing with a cheerleader, Mark. All you can do is cheer some more.

    So let’s all play the game and cheer.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Baronius –

    I heartily invite you to find ANY Republican proposal that would decrease the amount of American citizens without health insurance by more than three million over the next decade.

    The Republican proposals thus far in ALL respects do nothing about the insurance companies’ denial of claims due to pre-existing conditions or their denial of care due to caps on health insurance. Furthermore, all the Republican proposals thus far ADD to the deficit – there’s no real attempt to have health care reform that is deficit-neutral (unlike the Democratic proposals which at least try to be deficit-neutral).

    What you’re not getting, Baronius, is that the Republicans have NO real idea for health reform. The whole of their effort is to make Obama fail so that they might actually have a ghost of a chance of defeating him in 2012…because they know that if he passes health care reform, anyone they send up against him will be a token candidate almost certain to lose.

    To the Republican cognoscenti, it really is all about power. If that weren’t so, then they would be heartily voting FOR the Democratic health care reform bill which is at its heart almost EXACTLY like the Republican proposal offered against Hillarycare back in the 90’s. There are bills in legislature right now that were co-authored and co-sponsored by Republican legislators, and yet the Republicans are filibustering and voting en bloc against those bills!

    So WHY would a Republican legislator vote against a bill that he wrote or he co-sponsored?

    For the same reason that the Republicans in the Senate are filibustering an unheard-of 80% of ALL legislation. They simply want Obama to fail at all costs.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronius,

    These are not bad ideas-
    the heart of the GOP plan: tort reform, interstate access, and incremental change. Some of the specifics about fraud investigation are good, though.

    Doctors could save thousands of dollars in malpractice insurance costs, if tort reform did what is promised.
    The Americans who could afford to pay for their own health care could also save enormous amounts of money by crossing state lines to find that coverage.

    Yet, without the public option and simultaneously forcing a mandate that all Americans buy health care insurance from the private insurers, the only people helped are the insurers.

    Without a public option, there is absolutely no reason for them to lower their premiums, because there will be no competition or incentive to do so.

    If preexisting conditions are removed without a public option, then the premiums charged by private insurers will go way up, in order to compensate the loss to their bottom line.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronius,

    Just as Glenn is saying, left on their own, the Republicans are not bringing forth a substantial health care reform bill, and the parts they are adding to this one, do nothing to really change the status quo.

    One other point about Torte reform, not all malpractice insurance claims are frivolous.

    Example:

    My neighbor went to our local hospital for a leg amputation, that was made necessary because of diabetes. The surgeon cut off his good leg! So now, although he has been compensated financially, he would much rather have his leg back.

    For the record, McDonald’s has never paid a penny of that lawsuit that was referenced during C-PAC.

    So yes, let’s save some money, but still cover all Americans with some sort of health care, real health care.

  • Baronius

    If people can buy insurance across state lines, and anti-trust laws are enforced, there will be plenty of competition. Additionally, if we get employers out of the business of providing insurance, individuals can shop for the best provider on their own. Insurance companies will no longer have guaranteed clients, and prices will drop.

  • Baronius

    Jeannie, you just said that tort reform, interstate access, and incremental change aren’t bad ideas in #133. You can’t say that they’re not in #134.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Baronius –

    Let’s say you can buy insurance across state lines. Let’s say you’re right that it makes health insurance somewhat more affordable. Does that do anything about the insurance agencies’ habit of denying health care due to pre-existing conditions? Does that do anything about the denial of health care once a financial cap has been reached?

    No. My oldest son still couldn’t get health insurance.

    AND let’s say we have tort reform. Did you know that the total of ALL – repeat, ALL – litigation having to do with health care is a whopping 2%? In other words, if you took away ALL awards from litigation, you’d save the health care system a grand 2%.

    No. That wouldn’t help with the health care denial system we presently have.

    AND if we ‘got employers out of the business of providing insurance’…exactly how would that work? The devil’s in the details, Baronius, and if you give people tax credits (ooohhh, tax credits! Whoooppeee!) to buy insurance, let’s not even talk about the people who would just waste the money on buying an HDTV. Let’s talk instead about the families who have to choose between affording rent and affording health care. AND the highest tax credit I’ve heard the Republicans offer is $5,000 per year. I don’t know what you’ve seen, but I have yet to see ANY family whose health plan would cost less than twice that amount.

    Baronius, did you know an estimated 1.5 million Americans declared bankruptcy last year? Did you know that at least 62% percent of those were due to medical costs?

    Do you know how much each and every bankruptcy costs not only the family itself, but also the community, the city, the state, and the federal government in taxes? Do you realize how many bankruptcies result in increases in the homeless population and the crime rate, both of which increase the burden on the community, city, state, etc.?

    And did you know that among the first-world democracies on Earth, these bankruptcies due to medical expenses are ONLY found in America?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronius,

    I didn’t contradict myself in #134. What I said was, although some lawsuits may seem frivolous, they are not all something to get rid of entirely. Is that what you want? What if it was you who lost his leg, wouldn’t you want to seek compensation?

    There are bad decisions made by people in all walks of life.

    The patient should be able to sue, if they have had something happen to them like my neighbor’s nightmare.

    Wouldn’t you agree with me?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronious,

    You can’t force everyone to buy from the private insurers; if they could all afford it, wouldn’t most people have it already?

    To impose fines and jail-time for those who don’t comply?

    To me, that sounds like a mandate in a police state.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Glenn,

    Your #137, hits home!

    We need intelligent and compassionate health care reform in this country.

    Have you called the White House? It takes about ten minutes to reach a comment operator, and it is worth the time!

    1-202-456-1111 :)

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Thanks, Jeannie – but try as we might, we’re just wasting our time and effort with these people. They haven’t seen – indeed, they refuse to see – how a true social safety net benefits every segment of society. The proof is there in every other first-world democracy on the planet…but even if you take them there, their refusal of any hint of objectivity would still blind them to the reality that the citizens of those countries live every single day.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    You’re not looking at it correctly, Glenn. You’re seeing the forest and not the trees.

    My sister and brother-in-law are both practicing MDs – an internist and a surgeon. In between the two of them, they pay over sixty thousand a year in malpractice insurance, which premiums, in addition, are being taxes by the state of Kentucky as cost of “doing business.”

    Additional consequence of the ever-present possibility of frivolous law suits is the defensive medicine so as to cover everybody’s ass.

    In addition to setting a cap on the “awards” in case some of those suit come to trial, there is a larger problem that at present, there is no way of stopping the ambulance chases from taking up cases on a contingency basis – because one way or another, whether the case comes to trial or not, in most cases there results a settlement because it’s lesser expense. And this practice by the trial lawyers only contributes to the added pressures towards increasing malpractice insurance rates, more and more of “defensive medicine,” and so on and so forth. It’s a vicious circle.

    So in light of your facts-packed argument and your command of statistics and all that bullshit – your macro view of things in terms of total costs and possible savings – you are really missing the boat in a very large way when you think a tort reform is unimportant considering the larger scheme of things.

    That’s total bullshit. The system is broken. It’s impossible for good physicians to practice medicine any longer like it ought to be practiced. All these reforms that are on the table are nothing but a bandaid. It fixes nothing, it ameliorates nothing, except scoring political points. Business as usual, my friend, and you’re a fool if you think otherwise.

    Let me guess now why any significant tort reform isn’t part of the package. Is it perhaps that the trial lawyers are major contributors to the Democrats?

    The only real solution is not just to socialize medicine and medical care but to nationalize it – I emphasize now, nationalize it. Put all health workers and doctors on salaries. Nationalize all hospitals and get rid of insurance companies and the intermediaries. Eliminate the ever-present threat of frivolous lawsuits for malpractice by posing an arbitration board to determine the merits of the complaint on a case by case basis. I could go on.

    My sister would disagree with this solution because private initiative would be stifled, no more incentive for “doing business.

    Well, medicine should never be construed on any business model. Besides, it’s more and more difficult if not nigh impossible to make a business out of it – however professional you are or how hard you try. The system stinks. And continuing along the same road will only mean reducing the quality of medical care, because all those who really care will have a perfect right to say, “fuck it all.”

    So yes, Glenn, your macro argument really falls flat on its face. Nothing gets fixed. And it amounts to nothing except scoring political points.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Glenn,

    This is true, I feel like I’m Don Quixote’s sister. :(

    I’m very grateful you are hanging around this thread with me. You have a lot to add to this debate, and I thank you!

  • Baronius

    Jeannie, it looks like your #133 supports a mandate, but your #139 opposes it. What do you mean?

    Your #138 doesn’t explain why you support the Republican ideas then complain that they’re not substantial.

    That only leaves the question about the leg. You’re basically asking me if I think people should be allowed to chop off each other’s legs without consequence. My answer is a firm “no”. I’m not talking about the elimination of lawsuits, but putting reasonable caps on the damages. That will lower malpractice insurance costs and do much eliminate unnecessary tests.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Like I said Glenn, there are way too many people that want to find reasons why we should not do anything to change the status quo, and #142, is a great example of this.

    I guess age adds fear, when change arrives. I’m not young, but I’m not that old.

    :)I would say that I’m still very quick!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    No, the mandated buy-in is not listed in #133.

    And I am not referring to you as old, Baronius, please ignore that reference. I have a little bug here right now!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronius,

    You’re basically asking me if I think people should be allowed to chop off each other’s legs without consequence. My answer is a firm “no”.

    Ha Ha Ha, you are a master at twisting words around! If I didn’t know better, I’d ask you if your name is Rush.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    So are you going to reply, Glenn, or are you going to hide behind a skirt?

    Are you a man or are you a woos?

    I would have thought that an ex-Navy seal has got more guts.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baroniou,

    Does the tort reform you seek say no law-suites, whatsoever?

    If it does, then I have to look at the website again, and then get back to you. later.

    I need to rest again, I don’t mean to complain about pain, but ouch! Bye for now.

    :) This conversation is not over, so don’t run away!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Like I said, there is a little bug in this thread.

    You are only embarrassing yourself.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronius! sorry not Baroniou. Why do you spell it that way?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    The bug is you.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Jeannie, we have a more immediate problem and it’s called extended benefits. Senator Jim Bunning (R-KY) is single-handedly ripping money out of poor unemployed workers. How is it that the two white GOP Senators from Kentucky can wield the power they have in this country? Perhaps we need a litmus test for statehodd. Right now I’ve got Bunning and McConnell in my financial cross-hairs. It’s time these two political hack pigs be sent home packing. And let then take Charlie Rangel with them.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    The positive aspects of this bill:

    * No Discrimination for Pre-Existing Conditions
    * Insurance companies will be prohibited from refusing you coverage because of your medical history.
    * No Exorbitant Out-of-Pocket Expenses, Deductibles or Co-Pays
    * Insurance companies will have to abide by yearly caps on how much they can charge for out-of-pocket expenses.
    * No Cost-Sharing for Preventive Care
    * Insurance companies must fully cover, without charge, regular checkups and tests that help you prevent illness, such as mammograms or eye and foot exams for diabetics.
    * No Dropping of Coverage for Seriously Ill
    * Insurance companies will be prohibited from dropping or watering down insurance coverage for those who become seriously ill.
    * No Gender Discrimination
    * Insurance companies will be prohibited from charging you more because of your gender.
    * No Annual or Lifetime Caps on Coverage
    * Insurance companies will be prevented from placing annual or lifetime caps on the coverage you receive.
    * Extended Coverage for Young Adults
    * Children would continue to be eligible for family coverage through the age of 26.
    * Guaranteed Insurance Renewal
    * Insurance companies will be required to renew any policy as long as the policyholder pays their premium in full. Insurance companies won’t be allowed to refuse renewal because someone became sick.

    Source

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Silas,

    We do have a lot of problems in this country.

    Please write an article about those two Republican Senators from the Great State of Kentucky.

    We all have to multi-task now, just like my daughter does when she texts, listens and watches a movie at the same time as she does her studies and receives most of her grades in the nineties!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Why am I missing the end of this comment?

    I am a proud Obama mama, and I can say that, can’t I?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronius,

    Look at #154. Are there things in this proposed bill that you really oppose, while reading this list of benefits?

    I see only good here, of course I’m very Liberal and most things that say the insurers can’t do something will always look good to me.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Silas,

    Here is a way to really voice your opinions.

    I am going to stay awake Thursday night, is that when you air your talk radio show? If I get really brave I’ll call! :)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Well, bye for now. I love this place! Is it addicting?

  • Mark

    jeannie, I returned to find your: “How are you working towards fundamental change?”

    In order to formulate an appropriate response, I need a piece of info. When you read your question to yourself, which word receives emphasis?

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Roger –

    IIRC you’re not presently employed, so I’m assuming that you don’t have health insurance…but even if you do, let’s pretend for the sake of discussion that you don’t.

    Let’s also pretend that you felt a nagging pain in your gut and decided to spend a few hundred dollars on an emergency-room visit…and the doctor told you that it looks like you have stage 2 liver cancer. It’s treatable and not yet malignant, but you need the treatment if you have any desire to live beyond two or three more years.

    You’re unemployed and have no health insurance…and you’ve just joined the 25% of Americans who will get cancer some time in their lives. Unless you want to abide by the Republican health care plan – “Don’t get sick, but if you do get sick, then die quickly” – what are you going to do (other than leave the country, that is)?

  • Baronius

    Your #154 looks like a bad cut-and-paste from the original source. Actually, the original is laid out pretty badly. It includes “no dropping of coverage for seriously ill” and “guaranteed insurance renewal”, which are almost exactly the same thing. But I only raise that because you asked me to consider each item.

    The most notable thing is that 6 of 8 of the features will cost the insurance companies money. Only one of them (preventative care) will save the system any money; the rest will force the insurance companies to pay more. In some cases, the insurers won’t have any say in how much they pay. What will that do to health care costs?

  • Clavos

    AND let’s say we have tort reform. Did you know that the total of ALL – repeat, ALL – litigation having to do with health care is a whopping 2%? In other words, if you took away ALL awards from litigation, you’d save the health care system a grand 2%.

    The total of litigated awards is not the point for those who call for tort reform, we all know that that is a negligible amount in the totality of the cost of health care in this country.

    What IS significant and is FORCED by our current system is the number of unnecessary (read duplicate and superfluous) expensive tests ordered by physicians, not for diagnostic purposes, but for covering themselves in the event of litigation.

    Some experts estimate:

    More than a quarter of American healthcare dollars are spent on unnecessary tests that physicians order so they won’t get sued, according to the results of a new Gallup poll.

    In the survey, sponsored by Atlanta-based healthcare management company Jackson Healthcare, physicians reported that 26% of healthcare costs can be attributed to the practice of defensive medicine.

    Malpractice insurance premiums are also a contributing factor (they are passed on in the fees charged for medical services) to the high cost of medicine which could be ameliorated by tort reform:

    Medical specialties with the highest premiums include obstetrics and neurosurgery. Malpractice insurance premiums for obstetricians range from $200,000 per year in high-cost states to $20,000 annually in low-cost states. Resolving a suit takes at least three years, taking physicians’ time away from the practice of medicine.

    According to Towers Perrin, a global professional services firm, malpractice litigation costs $30 billion a year, and, since 1975, direct costs of litigation avoidance have grown at more than 10 percent annually.

    The real reasons Congress opposes tort reform are that the overwhelming majority of our legislators (and today, even the president) are themselves lawyers. In addition, among the biggest contributors to legislators’ campaign chests are the trial lawyers’ associations.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Glenn,

    Your #161 is no answer to the kind of issues I raised. You know it doesn’t, so don’t take me for a fool. Play your games with somebody else.

    I’d check into the emergency room. Does that answer your question?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna
  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronius,

    This seems to be the entire point to your objections, How much will it cost?

    If you can’t find even the tinniest reason to invest in this country as a whole, then what reason do you have not to?

    If we don’t find a way to end the insurers’ stranglehold on health care costs, then we might as well go to an emergency room when we need care. Why pay for any coverage at all?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronius,

    [“no dropping of coverage for seriously ill” and “guaranteed insurance renewal”, which are almost exactly the same thing.]

    I don’t think they are duplicates, because one might be the prospect of paying for long term care, such as an long term care in an ICU unit, and the other may be for a woman with a history of many fibroid surgeries.

    Understand, what I’m seeing here?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    OK, I duplicated ICU and unit.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronius,

    [The most notable thing is that 6 of 8 of the features will cost the insurance companies money. Only one of them (preventative care) will save the system any money;]

    This is excellent!

    * Insurance companies must fully cover, without charge, regular checkups and tests that help you prevent illness, such as mammograms or eye and foot exams for diabetics.

    Why shouldn’t preventative care cost the insurer any money?

    Our premiums are supposed to go for care, not the insurers’ profits.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronius,

    I am realising that the public option is not as necessary as passing this bill!

    The end of cherry picking.

    The end of preexisting conditions exclusion.

    The end of unequal coverage due to gender.

    The end of caps on terminally ill care.

    Young adults can remain on the family policy until the age of 26.

    It looks like after this goes through, then the fight for the public option can continue.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    This places the bill in a whole new light!

    There may be some people that are really worried about this passing, but I don’t think they are the people who desperately need health care.

    I believe they are the people who have profited from our lack of health care, instead of helping us to acquire it.

    Sorry, I’m just telling it like it is.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Remember this is a blended bill, together both Democrats and Republicans, House and Senate, forged this health care reform.

    Now it will pass, as simple majority rules.

    :)WOW!

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Roger –

    It’s no game. It’s real life for far too many Americans, and you believe I can’t see the trees for the forest (though that’s somewhat opposite of the normal saying). So walk with me down the road of life without health insurance.

    I’d check into the emergency room. Does that answer your question?

    And the doctor tells you that they don’t do chemo in the Emergency Room, to go see your primary doctor.

    So what’s your next step?

  • Boeke

    But of course the republican minority will never let this happen. They will block with their filibuster. But then, you know that, don’t you? You know that all these radical changes, including ‘start over’ are merely delaying tactics and the reps have no intention of moving forward.

    #
    135 – Baronius
    Mar 01, 2010 at 11:41 am

    If people can buy insurance across state lines, and anti-trust laws are enforced, there will be plenty of competition.

  • Boeke

    It’s time to end the Great Private Medical Insurance experiment: it’s a failure. It costs too much and covers too few. Plus, it’s a general PITA, what with all the crazy paperwork, shifting rules, and such.

    Shoot the damn thing in the head and put it out of it’s misery.

    Perhaps the greatest consequence of the Noble Experiment is that it suggests that there are whole large classes of enterprise that cannot be governed by private business structures, as we so fondly hoped in more naive times.

  • pablo

    Jeannie 128 you said:

    “We should use those boxes on our tax return forms to collect funds for health care. I bet everyone, would be willing to part with a mere three or four dollars in order to help end this national crisis.”

    This about sums up quite nicely my feelings bout your politics dear, as in naive in the extreme, as is your love of Obama. Assuming for the moment that there are let us say 150 million people that file and each and every one of them (it would probably be 50% at the very most) contributed 4 bucks as per your suggestion, that would raise a grand total of 600 million bucks, proverbial literal drop in the bucket as it were. Like I said Jeannie, your politics are naive, and the road to hell is paved with good intentions without practical thoughtful analysis of which in my humble opinion you have zilch.

  • Clavos

    You don’t really think your opinion is “humble,” do you Pablo?

    Just sayin’

  • pablo

    your right clavy i was being feces tious, nothin humble about my politics.

  • cannonshop

    176 Let’s see… 350 million U.S. Citizens (that does not include non-citizens living in the United States) times 600 million dollars. Assume 50 million of those citizens don’t desire/need/won’t use the system for anyting.

    Budgets out to two bucks per user, including non-contributors, but that comes out more like $1.50 per user when you add in foreign nationals here legally, or $.75 if you add in illegals.

    And that’s assuming a stable population that isn’t growing-which ours IS.

    My numbers sound about right, Pablo?

  • zingzing

    pablo: “your right clavy i was being feces tious, nothin humble about my politics.”

    even assuming the feces joke was intended, this is still golden. grammar gods, come fourth. wait for it, wait for it, wait for it. ok, go.

  • pablo

    zing if you do not think the pun was intended……it says alot more about your intelligence than mine, or lack therof

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Boeke,

    The Republican minority is just that, a minority. Yet, as you can see, they did help forge this bill.

    Thanks for highlighting, Baronius’ #135.

    If people can buy insurance, and the anti-trust laws are once again enforced, there will be plenty of competition.

    I wanted to boldly repeat. :)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Please call:

    1-202-456-111, and tell the White House’ comment operators that you support this bill. Volunteer operators are standing by to take your call.

    :)nite BC

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    cannonshop,

    I’m happy to see your name in the thread, please tell me what you think of the article. When you have time, OK?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    This is what health care reform will do for all of us:

    [The proposal will make health care more affordable, make health insurers more accountable, expand health coverage to all Americans, and make the health system sustainable, stabilizing family budgets, the Federal budget, and the economy:

    * It makes insurance more affordable by providing the largest middle class tax cut for health care in history, reducing premium costs for tens of millions of families and small business owners who are priced out of coverage today. This helps over 31 million Americans afford health care who do not get it today – and makes coverage more affordable for many more.
    * It sets up a new competitive health insurance market giving tens of millions of Americans the exact same insurance choices that members of Congress will have.
    * It brings greater accountability to health care by laying out commonsense rules of the road to keep premiums down and prevent insurance industry abuses and denial of care.
    * It will end discrimination against Americans with pre-existing conditions.
    * It puts our budget and economy on a more stable path by reducing the deficit by $100 billion over the next ten years – and about $1 trillion over the second decade – by cutting government overspending and reining in waste, fraud and abuse.] (Source)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Glenn,

    Thank you for all of your hard work yesterday; it will always be appreciated.

    :)As you can see, this struggle continues…

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    ” A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty” – Winston Churchill

  • Clavos

    Jeannie,

    I find your willingness to accept the propaganda from the the White House at face value both touching and naive in the extreme.

    Now, I have this bridge in New York for sale…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #173

    Either it is a game with you, Glenn, or you’re just too thickheaded to know you sound like a broken record.

    I’ve never objected to universal healthcare or the fact that something has to be done, so save your preaching for somebody else. In fact, my idea of what ought to be done is so radical you’d shit in your pants.

    And yes, you are seeing the forest and not the trees, as I pointed it out earlier. Yes, in a typical Glenn fashion, you just keep on repeating yourself.

    It’s getting tiresome, Glenn.

  • zingzing

    pablo: “zing if you do not think the pun was intended……it says alot more about your intelligence than mine, or lack therof”

    pablo, i obviously understand that the shit joke was intended. doesn’t mean it’s any good. but if one is going to make a shitty spelling joke, one should spell “you’re” correctly. that was the point. (also, when insulting someone’s intelligence, don’t spell “thereof” incorrectly. just makes you look silly and pretentious.)

    oooooooooooo!

  • Clavos

    I’m curious, zing,

    How do YOU spell thereof?

  • zingzing

    thereof.

  • zingzing

    (as in not “therof.”)

  • zingzing

    one has to wonder if pablo knows how to spell “facetious” as well… since he replaced “face” with “feces.” that was rather curious.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Roger –

    I’m sorry I’ve offended you. I would point you to my primary reason – my oldest son, who will get little or no health insurance in America unless health care reform passes…or unless he becomes unable to work.

    What’s wrong with this picture, Roger?

    My second point – just like Dave Nalle, you say you’ve never objected to universal health care (and he hasn’t AFAIK)…but you see the news. You see the political climate. Is the health care reform bill about to be sent up for reconciliation better than what we have now? MUCH better. It isn’t perfect by any means. If I had my way, we’d have true single-payer health care.

    But I can’t have my way, and you can’t have yours, and Dave can’t have his. All that you or I or he CAN reasonably do is support or oppose the options we DO have…and the option right now is real simple – either support or oppose the health care reform bill that’s in Congress now.

    And remember – there’s been several attempts at universal coverage beginning with Teddy Roosevelt. The present attempt comes closer than we ever have to universal coverage, and if it fails, how many more decades must pass before the opportunity comes again? Unless you really, really think the Republicans would do health reform on their own, that is.

    My third point:

    Yes, in a typical Glenn fashion, you just keep on repeating yourself. It’s getting tiresome, Glenn.

    Roger, I don’t think you can honestly deny that I’ve given you quite a bit of respect. Since I began blogging politics, I’ve never once – not once – used a private individual’s name as if it were an insult as you did in #194. I’ve taken your constructive criticism and sincerely thanked you for it…and IIRC pointed no criticisms toward you in return. Furthermore, your accusation is false – I have never used the approach of “what would you do if…” in our discussions on health care on this forum.

    You had given the same reply that my neo-con friend did about what he’d do if he didn’t have health insurance: “I’d just go to the emergency room!” I spent some time ruminating over the proper reply to help him understand the falsity of that argument…and then I saw you try to give that same argument.

    Lastly – and this IS repeating – this is no game. I don’t know how many children you have, Roger, but when it’s your son’s health in the balance, it’s not all fun and games anymore.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I have not pleased the house critics.

    If there is a hazing ritual at BC, then I surely have survived.

    I find most of your childish comments tiring, but I do not tire that easily.

    Now, take all of your wounded egos and go home, if you don’t like what this, American woman, has to say to you.

    I will continue to write articles and comment in these threads until, Eric Olsen, tells me that my voice is no longer welcome here.
    I also beleive that, Lisa McKay -the executive editor, also finds me tolerable.

    So my question to all of you is, “What is your main objection to my presence here, in the political section?” This is not a private boys’ club.

    Go ahead, ” Speak up now, or be quiet and go away.”

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Pablo is a good speller, zing, if only for the fact he’s eloquent. You can’t be one without the other.

    We all make spelling mistakes on threads (except for Clavos of course).

    Dreadful may be another exception.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Glenn,

    It’s good to see you here and you do not owe anyone an apology for your beliefs.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    You didn’t offend me, Glenn, and I never took it as such. It’s just that ofttimes in the heat of the argument, you allow your passion to get the better of you and you happen to forget which persons you’re addressing.

    What I submitted in the earlier comment are real concerns, concerns which the present health care bill, even if passed, neither addresses nor solves. Yet, you conveniently bypassed them as if they were of no consequence and continued with the party line.

    That’s what I meant by playing a game.

  • zingzing

    “We all make spelling mistakes on threads (except for Clavos of course).”

    and we all have fun pointing them out. i was just calling him out on the bad pun and summoning clavos. i’m still waiting to see if someone is dumb enough to call me out on mine.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I will be happy to directly answer any comments that are made respectfully.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    And yes, Glenn, the “I’d go to the emergency room” retort was purposely facetious; but in light of your unwillingness to address my points, you deserved it.

    So let’s keep track of who is who on these threads, and I assure you that all future communications would be way smoother.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    OK, zing. I buy that.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    [Comprehensive health care reform can no longer wait. Rapidly escalating health care costs are crushing family, business, and government budgets. Employer-sponsored health insurance premiums have doubled in the last 9 years, a rate 3 times faster than cumulative wage increases. This forces families to sit around the kitchen table to make impossible choices between paying rent or paying health premiums. Given all that we spend on health care, American families should not be presented with that choice. The United States spent approximately $2.2 trillion on health care in 2007, or $7,421 per person – nearly twice the average of other developed nations. Americans spend more on health care than on housing or food. If rapid health cost growth persists, the Congressional Budget Office estimates that by 2025, one out of every four dollars in our national economy will be tied up in the health system. This growing burden will limit other investments and priorities that are needed to grow our economy. Rising health care costs also affect our economic competitiveness in the global economy, as American companies compete against companies in other countries that have dramatically lower health care costs.

    The President has vowed that the health reform process will be different in his Administration – an open, inclusive, and transparent process where all ideas are encouraged and all parties work together to find a solution to the health care crisis. Working together with members of Congress, doctors and hospitals, businesses and unions, and other key health care stakeholders, the President is committed to making sure we finally enact comprehensive health care reform.]Source

  • Clavos

    Thomas Sowell presents some cogent insights in an excellent, on-topic opinion essay, Alice in Health Care, published in today’s Real Clear Politics. Some excerpts:

    One of the biggest reasons for higher medical costs is that somebody else is paying those costs, whether an insurance company or the government. What is the politicians’ answer? To have more costs paid by insurance companies and the government.

    Back when the “single payer” was the patient, people were more selective in what they spent their own money on. You went to a doctor when you had a broken leg but not necessarily every time you had the sniffles or a skin rash. But, when someone else is paying, that is when medical care gets over-used — and bureaucratic rationing is then imposed, to replace self-rationing.

    And:

    In country after country, the original estimates of government medical care costs almost always turn out to be gross under-estimates of what it ultimately turns out to cost.

    He notes:

    Confusion between costs and prices add to the Alice in Wonderland sense of unreality.

    What is called lowering the costs is simply refusing to pay all the costs, by having the government set lower prices, whether for doctors’ fees, hospital reimbursements or other charges. Surely no one believes that there will be no repercussions from refusing to pay for what we want. Some doctors are already refusing to accept Medicare or Medicaid patients because the government’s reimbursement levels are so low.

    Sowell points out:

    Virtually everything that is proposed by those who are talking about bringing down the costs of medical care will in fact raise those costs. Mandates on insurance companies? Why are insurance companies not already doing those things that new mandates would require? Because those things raise costs by an amount that people are unwilling to pay to get those benefits…What politicians want to do is look good by imposing mandates, and then let the insurance companies look bad by raising the premiums to cover the additional costs.

    It is a great political game, but it does nothing to lower medical costs.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    [The Administration believes that comprehensive health reform should:

    * Reduce long-term growth of health care costs for businesses and government
    * Protect families from bankruptcy or debt because of health care costs
    * Guarantee choice of doctors and health plans
    * Invest in prevention and wellness
    * Improve patient safety and quality of care
    * Assure affordable, quality health coverage for all Americans
    * Maintain coverage when you change or lose your job
    * End barriers to coverage for people with pre-existing medical conditions] Source

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Laura is a 35-year old married mother of two (Taylor is 11 and Logan is 8) with metastatic breast cancer. Laura was first diagnosed in January 2008 and has since undergone 8 rounds of chemotherapy, a double mastectomy and 33 rounds of radiation only for the cancer to return and spread to her bones. Laura estimates her family has at least $12,000 in unpaid medical bills and is struggling to get by. Their budget is very tight and theyve had to use a credit card to pay at least one mortgage payment so far. Laura says she doesnt want to lose their house over her illness and while she knows she wont be able to see her children grow up, she wants to be sure the time she has left with them is quality and not spent worrying about health care bills. September 9, 2009 (Public Domain)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Nathan’s son, Thomas, was born with hemophilia in 2003. At the time, he and his family had great insurance through the high tech telecommunications company that he helped found, but when the insurance company saw Nathan’s claims (ranging from a few thousand dollars to $750,000 a year for his son), they started to increase the premiums for all the employees and their families. Nathan decided to form his own small business so that he could have more control over the plan selection. Fortunately, under Colorado law, coverage for small businesses prohibits permanently excluding pre-existing conditions, so he was able to get coverage for his family. But Nathan faces increasing premiums and a $6 million lifetime cap, which he fears will be exceeded because of his sons continuing need for care. Under health reform, coverage for Nathan and his family would not include any annual or lifetime caps on benefits. September 9, 2009 (Public Domain)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    OK, Obama mama, will return later.

  • Baronius

    Jeannie, for a little perspective, look at the most recent lengthy thread, “The Demographic Myths of Our Self-Centered Age”. There were personal feuds (both including and excluding the author), digressions about slavery, kibbutzes, and cricket, and the inevitable conversation between Roger and Cindy. The thread didn’t go anywhere that Vijai intended, and had very little to do with the thrust of his article.

    That’s what happens when you post an article. You don’t have any say in what happens afterwards. You’ll drive yourself crazy if you try to control it. It’s good that you spend time in the thread, but don’t be stunned if people don’t agree with you or carry on about minor points. Above all, don’t take it personally. There is no unified body of house critics who implement an agenda or a social hierarchy around here.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronius,

    I respect you, and a few others, that I feel are worth my energy.

    I am not driving myself crazy, but I am holding my own, despite the best efforts of a small group of people who comment here. Some of them use to write their own articles.

    They have, ignored me, insulted me, and lately pouted, because I wont change my beliefs and follow them.

    I find it ironic that many of these critics, show up under other peoples writings just to taunt and insult, when it’s not their opinions that they see mirrored back at them. It is possible to be a critic without being cruel and obnoxious.

    I have a right to be here, Baronious, I’ve worked very hard to remain, and I’m not leaving until I’m ready to go.

    :)Now, is there any more health care debate between us, or have I won? LOL

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Baronius #215 –

    I heartily agree. Now, if all the conservatives would just get used to the fact that I’m right and they’re all wrong, we’ll all get along just famously!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    “You’ve done it before and you can do it now. See the positive possibilities. Redirect the substantial energy of your frustration and turn it into positive, effective, unstoppable determination.”- Ralph Marston

    I have no idea who Ralph is, but I like him. :)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Glenn,

    :)I made a mistake when I told you what squadron I was in, it was The 86th CRS, not AGS. I just looked at my coffee cup.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Unwittingly, Baronius keeps on adding fuel to the fire, forgetting all the while that he too plays the part of a shit-disturber at times, like on the thread he references.

    If you doubt it, Baronius, then reread the last couple of the comments on Vijai’s thread and see for yourself whether or not an agreement of the sort was reached and the thread had died of its own accord.

    But of course you were not there to second the agreement because it entailed certain criticism of the capitalist system, criticism you’d rather not hear. The only thing you were intent on hearing was high praises.

    Indeed, Baronius, your own silence on Vijai’s thread once the complete picture became unraveled speaks volumes.

    So you can persist in your delusions as to your even-handedness and fairness to both sides of the argument, but your efforts aren’t very convincing.

    Better luck next time.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    #220,

    Why don’t you try to write your own articles?
    It appears that you burn away much of your energy commenting in this thread.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    [I’ve always believed that our system of free enterprise works best when it rewards hard work. This is America. We don’t disparage wealth; we don’t begrudge anybody for doing well. We believe in success. But it does offend our values when executives of big financial firms — firms that are struggling — pay themselves huge bonuses, even as they continue to rely on taxpayer assistance to stay afloat.]- President Obama

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    [Since taking office, my administration has worked hard with many of you to make sure that America fulfills our obligations to our veterans and their families. With Secretary Ric Shinseki in the lead, we’re building a 21st century VA: We’re harnessing technologies to cut the red tape and backlogs. We’re investing in mobile clinics to reach rural areas. We’re moving towards a single lifetime electronic health record for everyone in uniform. We’re making it a top priority to end homelessness among our veterans.

    We dramatically increased funding for veterans health care: more care for women’s veterans, for our wounded warriors from Iraq and Afghanistan suffering from Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, traumatic brain injuries. For 500,000 “Priority 8″ veterans, we’re restoring VA health care coverage.] – President obama

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    [At this very moment, the VA is operating without a budget, making it harder for VA medical centers and clinics to deliver the care our vets need. The hardworking folks at the VA know this. I was there at headquarters this spring. Michelle was there — if I’m not mistaken, Ric — just this Tuesday. It’s frustrating for them and it’s frustrating for our vets who pay the price when budgets are delayed: the new doctors, nurses, and critical staff that aren’t hired; the new medical equipment that isn’t purchased; the construction of new facilities and clinics that isn’t started; the new programs for medical care that are delayed.

    This is inexcusable. It’s unacceptable. It’s time for it to stop. And that’s just what we’ll do with this landmark legislation — the Veterans Health Care Budget Reform and Transparency Act.]

  • http://www.futonreport.net/ Matthew T. Sussman

    Jeannie: “It appears that you burn away much of your energy commenting in this thread.”

    Oh, that’s a ha.

    Most prolific Commenters in 24 hrs
    * jeannie danna (55 comments)
    * roger nowosielski (28 comments)
    * Ruvy (11 comments)
    * Clavos (10 comments)
    * Glenn Contrarian (10 comments)

    Yeah, everyone else! Comment less!

  • Baronius

    You want to review that thread, Roger? Recall that you were insulting to Vijai’s race and the religion you assumed he espoused, as well as his reading comprehension, when you hadn’t read his article. Recall that you took one quote that I highlighted and attacked Vijai and me on the basis of your misreading of it. At this point, IIRC, you mocked my religion. Recall that Vijai eventually stormed off. Then I jumped in and pointed out that you had misunderstood the quote (although I put it more diplomatically). After this, and your actual reading of the article, you and Vijai were able to come to some agreement. If I were you reading over that thread, I wouldn’t be bragging and feeling vindicated.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronius,

    I don’t have any more patience left for him. I already raised one child, and she turned out, smart, beautiful, and compassionate.

    I am here to learn how to write articles that people want to read, and looking at my comments, most of them anyway, I’m doing alright.:)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    That’s your take, Baronius, as to what I was doing. Not surprising, of course, because you’re so set in your thinking that you can’t see beyond the end of your nose.

    I don’t have to review the thread, Baronius, because all along I had perfect control of what it was exactly that I was doing and why. Moreover, I have perfect recollection of what exactly transpired and why.

    And my point still stands. Once Vijai and I have finally come to an agreement that capitalism leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to its present practices, you fell dumbstruck, there being nothing else for you to add or to subtract.

    And you really need to be straightened up on a thing or two. There isn’t any need for me to feel vindicated, as you so ignorantly assert, for the simple reason that all along I knew what I was doing and proceeding with my game plan – not yours.

    Indeed, I succeeded marvelously for in addition to reaching the final agreement, between me and Cindy we both have raised some valid points which needed to be raised – and no thanks to you.

    So again, you can persist in your delusions as to your fair-mindedness and evenhanded approach, but I know better.

    And please, don’t regard this comment as any kind of attack on your own person or your religion. Although I must admit that the Jesuit brothers would be awfully disappointed with your lack of rhetorical skills. They’d send you in for a refresher course, all tuition paid.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Matthew T. Sussman,

    Who are you to jump in here and show me my own comment numbers?

    I can comment in this thread as many times as I feel fit. You haven’t read this article, and if you have , you haven’t commented on it, or I would have responded to you, directly.

    Don’t you write about sports? When I find the time and my back doesn’t hurt so much, I’ll read one of your articles, and then I’ll comment on that article too, but I wont insult you in the process.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    No wonder people don’t like commenting here, who could blame them? We all look like a bunch of idiots, whether we can spell or not!

    :)I’ll see you later, Baronius, we tried.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Threads don’t belong to anyone, Princess.

    And writing an article doesn’t entitle the author to try to censor what should or should not be posted.

    Facts of life.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    You stop with the name calling, got it? Personal attacks are not allowed here.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I am here to learn how to write articles that people want to read, and looking at my comments, most of them anyway, I’m doing alright.:)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I suppose the pea under the mattress was too much for your Highness.

    I’ll do my best to ameliorate my remarks in the future.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    And by way of suggestion, perhaps you ought to write more challenging article than the present one. That might evoke some interest.

    It’s common knowledge that most people get real tired of cheerleaders, except for the dedicated few.

    So try another knack and you might be more successful.

  • zingzing

    testy…

  • Clavos

    Ah, but what fun!!

  • Clavos

    Biff! Pow!! Smack!

    It’s like watching polar bears eating their own young.

    It’s BC’s own Roman Circus.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    You people should really try to find a life to bug besides mine. Yes, Clavos, this is fun.:)

    ha ha ha, Where’s my pea? oh no! It dropped on the floor and now, I can’t reach it!

    I need to write something new, it’s the only way to get rid of you for a while.:)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Clavos,

    When are you going to write something? I bet it would be a really good read.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Over the past year, America has faced the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression, leaving millions of Americans struggling with unemployment, businesses failing, home prices falling, and savings plummeting. Financial regulatory reform represents a common sense change in the way government interacts with both Wall Street and Main Street which will ensure we don’t go back to the kinds of abuse and irresponsibility that helped to cause this crisis. It is time to restore responsibility and accountability to our financial system and provide Americans with the confidence that there is a system in a place that works for and protects them – not just the banks, hedge funds and other financial institutions.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I would write this, but my back hurts, why don’t you?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    See ya later.

  • Baronius

    Roger, you always seem to miss the point during a conversation, then insist it was part of a grand strategy after the conversation. I don’t ask this as an insult: why should anyone reply to you? Your goading, if it is that, doesn’t advance the conversation any better than other people’s directness. Arch and Baritone move more rock with dynamite than you do with your chisel.

    And what are you doing to Jeannie right now? Whether it’s strategic petulance or just petulance, it’s unseemly. I get the impression that you wanted Jeannie to be another protege, and when she failed to go along with it you took it personally.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    *chuckle*

    Jeannie, you know I agree with most of everything you’ve written, but I did have to grin when I saw Roger gently pushing your buttons.

    And I have to agree – whatever subject the original article may be about, the following discussion may go in a totally different direction. Most of the time such wandering happens completely by accident – human interaction being what it is – but sometimes, sometimes a commenter will deliberately change the subject…and if he or she’s very, very careful, you won’t even notice that the subject’s been changed.

    I don’t have that level of guile yet – yet! – but if I did…

    …or is that simply a clumsy attempt to keep others from thinking I’ve ever done such a thing?

    No – I’m too sincere for that – but I have tried different avenues of attack with the same goal in mind.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronius,

    You said it, he is obsessed, and I think slightly off kilter, to be nice about it. I don’t want to contact Eric, but if this continues, I will.

    I think there is control issue here. For me also, because I want to control this thread! LOL, as if anyone could.

    I am an Obama, supporter and as Glen Beck put it, “Don’t liberals make your eyes bleed?” Well call the medics!

    :)Thanks for your support, surprising, and pleasant.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Glenn,

    I know. But I can still try to keep talking about health care, can’t I?

    :)

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    As a regular Blogcritics contributor, I object to comment #225 by Matthew T. Sussman, whose profile identifies him as sports editor of BC Magazine and executive editor of Technorati. Since joining BC last November, I’ve admired the editors’ restraint in mediating commenter threads. This is the first unwarranted intervention I’ve seen. While it’s true that Sussman is technically not Jeannie’s editor (since she appears in Politics not Sports), he isn’t the Comments Editor, either; that would be Christopher Rose. Sussman has no business sticking his nose in here. He’s not an innocent passerby. He’s a high-ranking member of BC’s editorial staff. Mocking Jeannie as he did has a potentially chilling effect on BC commenters and writers alike. First, it implies a ceiling above which it’s indecent for commenters to participate. If true, BC ought to specify some numerical limit in its Official Comment Policy. Second, writers who participate in their own threads are now on notice that they’re under editorial scrutiny from the bigwigs at Blogcritics/Technorati. Step over the line by saying something an editor thinks is hypocritical, and you’re subject to ridicule. This is a shameful and disturbing development.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna
  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Alan,

    Thanks for your support. I am now rendered speechless! :)WOW

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Jeannie, what really ticks me off is that Sussman’s post (#225) had nothing to do with either your article (“The Health Care All Of Us Want”) or any of the various topics addressed in this lengthy thread. His sole purpose was to discredit you. I wonder, did he contact you beforehand by email, advising you privately that you’re over-commenting? Or was his first impulse to publicly embarrass you? The answer will tell us much about Mr. S.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    Maybe you are new to the Internet, Alan, but there’s a long established tradition of people pointing out when others are acting hypocritical. Editors are not barred from that practice.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Damn, I popped in for a minute and thought I was in the well of the United States Senate. In the meantime while all of you were bickering:

    1. Health care remains a thorn in the Democratic side.

    2. Senator Jim “Ginsburg will be dead in nine months” Bunning has halted unemployment benefits because we can’t pay for it while he allows a pile of bills to go through because we can’t pay for it.

    3. Nancy Pelosi remains two heartbeats away from the Presidency. Is not anyone aware?

    4. Corporations and Lobbyists are pouring millions into GOP war chests as Wall Street gears up to send the Oval Office a warning.

    5. Hillary Clinton is looking more Presidential every day. Is this coincidence?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    El Bicho, for the record, you have edited several of my BC contributions. For that I am grateful. However, if I post a comment in the thread to one of my articles that you personally have not edited, and in your editorial wisdom my comment is spurious, would you do me the courtesy of pointing out the error of my ways privately by email? Or would you immediately try to pull me down a few pegs by sneering at me in public? If the answer is the latter, I’d be grateful if you let another editor handle my stuff from now on.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    The Bunning stand-off is over. So, my question is what kind of deal was made? Does it have anything to do with the fact that his foundation may be charged with fraud? Did he strike a deal in exchange for his capitulation? Barbara Boxer is Chair of the Senate Ethics Committee. I hope we hear from her.

  • Clavos

    Both Sussman and El Bicho are entirely correct and within their rights, not only in regard to Blogcritics policy and internet custom, but under the laws of the United States as well.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Cindy, re #103. Thank you for the video. I have passed the link along to my step semi-cousin Zaphod in the hope that he can identify the creatures obviously tormenting the pitiful cat as Benjy Mouse and Frankie Mouse. True, they are labeled rats, but it is clear to me that they are actually mice cleverly disguised as rats, on vacation from their current day jobs as pundits in their own multidimensional universe. That’s what they do when not running around in mazes pretending to be the subjects of experiments conducted by the third most intelligent carbon based Earth life forms. My guess is that they ran out of suitably mysterious questions to the answer 42, but Zaphod should should know for sure.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Alan,

    I have never thought of myself as over-commenting in my thread.

    I find it very disheartening when an author doesn’t answer my comments. So,I thought that responding personally to commenters that are respectful to me showed extra effort on my part. look at some of this crap, it’s not right to talk to anyone like this.

    Why people, such as El Bicho, believe that everyone can treat me however they want here says a lot about double standards.

    I have also been told by people here, that I better watch it or I’ll be banned, while they continue run me into the ground.

    Who is the hypocrite here? Not me.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Baronius,

    You’re simply naive. But thank you for responding.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Clavos,

    You are one of the worst offenders of this double standard.

    Telling me, that the wolves will get me if I don’t have the proper links to support every word that I write, and then you only come here to mock me.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Clavos, are you perchance also an editor at Blogcritics or Technorati? As El Bicho demonstrates by (poor) example, some editors have their real names on the masthead but comment under pseudonyms. If you are one such, I think you ought to be honest about it and address this point under your real name.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I happen to believe, Alan, that you’re continuing using your satirical voice. I can’t imagine you doing otherwise.

    The problem is, Alan, one can’t distinguish anymore more between your literary voice and your true one.

    Can you?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Comments that are some combination of pointlessly vulgar, vile, cruel, without redeeming qualities, and an embarrassment to the site. There are a lot of these in every thread I have ever had here.

    I don’t see you doing this to anyone else.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Alan,

    You know Nils, don’t you?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger, Should not be here, this does not concern him.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    My being one of the few female political writers here and also a liberal, is a double standard times two.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Silas,

    Someone here should answer your question.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Alan –

    When it comes to politics, Clavos and I don’t get much further apart. Whatever he would disparagingly say about my political opinions probably mirrors anything I would say about his political opinions as we continue to fling death by a thousand bytes at each other. The rivalry between the best-in-the-world Boston Red Sox and the not-worth-the-sweat-from-my-nether-regions New York Yankees is nothing compared to us.

    But he’s a doggone good editor and by his actions he has proven his integrity to me in the clearest terms. So whenever someone pipes up and complains about his editorial efforts, I stick up for him. He’s a good editor and has earned my trust…and I recommend you trust him as well.

    Come to think of it, he’s sorta like having a family member that I really, really don’t like. I can talk smack at him all day long…but don’t you dare do so unless you’re part of the family! Unless it’s about his political views, that is….

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Clavos is an editor, Alan, and everyone knows it.

    There isn’t any attempt here by any of the people to hide behind their official or semi-official position.

    I’d be the first to complain about some of the editorial practices and high brass. In fact, I was suspended once from BC for daring to argue with an editor, mind you now, not on matters concerning policy but substantive issues.

    But in this particular respect, not only are the comments justifiable. More importantly perhaps, they’re not offered here as some kind of Damoclesian sword but in unofficial capacity, by simply other posters.

    So unless we want to make an explicit rule that no one who connected with Techorati and BC in any official or semi-official position has any right to post as a regular commenter, we had better live in an imperfect world and at least don’t assume that any of those comments are any other than bone fide.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    My skin is thick! But right now, I’m naucious, and so tired of these fools.

    Roger acts like a jilted lover, you’d think he had something going on with me. LOL

    Pablo, he is just obnoxious, look at the pile he left here. Why should I have to read this? Within the law? You’ve got to be kidding me.

    Ruvy, constantly taunts me and then runs away mad.

    But no, I am in the wrong?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Glenn,

    That’s the truth! I’m not part of the boys family here.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    And Glenn, btw, I don’t have any intent to be pushing here Jeannie’s buttons as Baronius is certain of but you, to your credit, merely imply or simply josh about.

    If anything, she’s been more than rude to me one more than one occasion, on this and other threads of late (I believe I understand the reasons), and for the most part, I’m simply ignoring those comments (and for that, too, I have my reasons).

    There are times, however, when I don’t. So perhaps it would be behoove you to better attune yourself to the entire context rather than to be picking out one single comment out of a whole bunch.

    That would be a fairer thing to do, Glenn, not that I really care whether you’re being fair to me. But I do know that fairness is a quality on which you pride yourself.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Anyone who is listening to Roger should start watching him closely, he is lying right now.
    Whenever any new woman comes here, he is all over them, huh Rog?

  • zingzing

    oh for fuck’s sake. when a person is editing, they’re an editor, and they should be at least somewhat professional about it. when they are commenting, they’re a commenter and subject to no additional rules or boundaries. if a person who happens to be an editor wants to get down and dirty with the rest of us, that’s their right, as they’re just a commenter like anyone else. it’s just too bad if you get insulted. that’s ANY of you.

    maybe an editor, for the sake of their own reputation as an editor, should hold themselves to a higher standard. they can if they want to. the fact of the matter is that most of the editors got their start here as writers or commenters, and give their services free of charge. they help run the site because they like it. if you take away their ability to enjoy the site, they’ll take off. so every time an editor gets a bit childish, put a goddamn smile on your face.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Don’t you know, zing, that editors are gods?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Oh well, it’s not like anyone is trying to comment on this article.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Roger (#264), you either misunderstand or mistyped. I’m not referring to people hiding behind their official position, I’m objecting to people hiding their official position. It’s simply untrue that “everyone knows” Clavos is an editor. I don’t know it, and that information is important to me. As a writer, I have to trust my editor. If he’s editing my stuff with one hand, and trashing me in the threads with his other hand, I don’t want any part of the bastard. Why can’t he man up and identify himself? I’d endorse your proposed rule that editors and executives at Technorati or BC should be barred from participating in threads, as long as they refuse to disclose their official capacity. However, such a rule would not be necessary if BC would simply publish (and keep up to date) a list of editors’ names and each one’s pseudonym so that we as writers know who the hell we’re dealing with.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Why don’t you take your down and dirty elsewhere, Zing!
    I am sick of the foul language that comes with you. Read the comment policy, buddy!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I want Lisa, and Eric to read this. If this is BC rights for all of you, then I have rights too!

  • zingzing

    coming around here and bitching about getting into an argument is like going to a football game and complaining that they’re playing football down there.

    roger, i’m not saying anything like “praise be to the editors,” but they do deserve a collective thanks for helping make the site what it is. some of them i don’t personally agree with, i might even dislike one or two, and i’ve even had an article or two absolutely butchered by an editor (over in the music section), but they’re doing it out of an interest in keeping this site running. i’ve been commenting here for about 3 years, and it’s fun. i’d like to keep it that way.

  • http://www.futonreport.net/ Matthew T. Sussman

    Oh, this got remarkably more interesting and incredibly silly.

    Alan,

    1. High ranking? Bigwigs? Guffaw. BC might be more egalitarian than you perceive it to be. Would you like to see my Blogcritics paycheck?

    2. You e-mailed me about this very subject. I responded. You didn’t write back (did you not like what I said or where this was going?) so you voluntarily took it to the streets. It’s public now. When you’re through the looking glass, others like Bicho and Clavos (pen names!) will likely follow you in.

    Aside: Matthew T. Sussman is actually a pseudonym. My real name is Zflarnbov K. McPhosphate.

    3. Nobody’s saying Jeannie can’t make 50 comments a day. She can. She should. And I can say that’s … well, that’s excessive. Freedom of expression is a double-edged shuriken. Actually, all shuriken are double-edged. Doesn’t that blow your mind?

    4. You’re probably taking this way more seriously than me.

    5. Health care!

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    zingzing (#269), are you also a pseudonymous Blogcritics editor? You’re certainly nasty enough for the position.

  • http://www.futonreport.net/ Matthew T. Sussman

    “However, such a rule would not be necessary if BC would simply publish (and keep up to date) a list of editors’ names and each one’s pseudonym so that we as writers know who the hell we’re dealing with.”

    Oh. My. GOD.

    (Bottom left of every page.)

    -Z.K. McP

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Jeannie does, Alan; and she also knows about Sussman and El Bicho, or should know simply by looking up the header of the respective secion(s) to see their names embossed in gold.

    I don’t think anyone should be banned from participation – initially I thought so – especially since they’re not getting paid for what they do. Is anyone hiding their official position? I seriously doubt that too; but in the interest of full disclosure, I’m not against the idea of publishing some such list.

    May I, however, refer you back to your own recent article in which you argued for much laxer standards in blogosphere as opposed to those still presumably in tact in the print media.

  • http://willkillforfood.com Lisa McKay

    Alan, the editors are all listed on our “about” page, which is not entirely up to date, but I think the relevant players are all represented. If you click on the editors’ names, you’ll see that they all link back to their respective writer’s pages. Anyone who’s interested can see who’s who.

    Jeannie, I’ve read pretty much every comment on this thread. I’m not sure what you’d like me to weigh in on regarding anyone’s “rights.” I’ve not seen where yours have been denied you.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Zing, #275

    I was being tongue in cheek. I’m all with you.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Roger –

    Oh, good grief! If anything, I was gently picking on Jeannie! I had no idea of who was right or wrong in your discussion, but I’ve got a bad habit of helping push someone’s buttons when I see that their buttons happen to be in a ticklish spot.

    I really don’t see where I was taking her side against you. But, truth be told, I am certainly biased towards the fairer sex [ducks clods of dirt and mud suddenly thrown by Jeannie] and am normally significantly more likely to take the woman’s side against the man. Some would call that sexist, and they’d be right. Others might call that an attempt at chivalry, and I hope that they’d be right.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Matthew T. Sussman (#276), when I emailed you, I wrote, “You owe Jeannie Danna a public apology.” You replied that Jeannie doesn’t deserve an apology because she “doesn’t write sports and doesn’t write for Technorati. So I’m technically not her editor. Nowhere did I act in any editorial capacity, and hell if she even knows who I am or what I do.” I didn’t pursue our email exchange because your flippant and insulting tone (recycled in this comment #276) made clear that you have no intention of apologizing. So I resorted to this thread to voice my complaint. If you had taken me seriously, I would not have pursued this avenue of protest.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    No problem, Glenn. Hope you continue in that mode when your turn comes.

  • zingzing

    jeannie: “Why don’t you take your down and dirty elsewhere, Zing!”

    i’ll do whatever i want wherever i want to do it, thank you very much.

    “I am sick of the foul language that comes with you. Read the comment policy, buddy!”

    how about you read it? because i’m not violating it. “foul language…” psh. are you my grandmother? i’ll have you know, missy, that i’ll be using foul language in the future, so put some cotton in your eyes.

    seriously, jeannie… you need to grow some thicker skin. you off on people for nothing. it’s tiresome. what do you expect around here? why do you overreact so often?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Alan,

    Would you want me now to email you a long list of comments for which I might reasonably think that Jeannie owes me an apology? I am sure you wouldn’t, nor would I do it even if you asked.

    But the point of the matter is – there is a certain pattern here. Yet you happen to zero-in on one singular comment and blow it out of proportions and to total disregard of the entire context.

    Not a very judicious approach, I should say.

  • zingzing

    alan, #277. just because i disagree with you, i’m suddenly “nasty?” why is that? and aren’t you judgmental? do you have any previous experience with me? i’ve never seen you around, as far as i know, so i wouldn’t be prone to jumping to conclusions. nasty thing to do.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Lisa,

    I hate this conversation, but it needs to be said. There is definitely a double standard here at BC.
    If you look at the ridicule left by some of these guys in the name of fun, you will see where I’m coming from.
    If you don’t see the disrespect and insults, then you are defending them.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    It is a well known fact that I am the cruel overlord of the comments space, ably assisted by my esteemed deppity, the almost always gracious Dr Dreadful, except when our bosses overrule us, lol.

    To regular readers, Suss is a well known equal opportunity snark created by Lewis Carroll to irritate everybody that doesn’t think U.S football is the world’s greatest sport.

    Unless the doc or I see reason to act on a particular comment within a period of, say, 24 hours, then you can all safely assume that we think it is an ok comment on balance.

    We strive really hard to encompass, tolerate and allow a wide range of opinions in the interests of keeping the comments space a lively, fun and possibly even a tiny bit dangerous place to be and I think most people like it that way. The alternative would likely be a fairly sterile and stilted comments space that would not be much fun.

    All of you that are Blogcritics writers know how to contact me if you think that a particular comment has gone too far and I will take action if I agree with you, regardless of the source.

    In my opinion, Alan and Jeannie are getting a little over-excited and need to take a breath or two.

    Alan, you are just dealing with people. It really doesn’t matter if any commenter is an article editor or not, because in the comments space that counts for absolutely nothing, they are just another commenter like everybody else and they can and do get their comments edited just like anyone else. Comments made by the Doc or myself are open to scrutiny and even our bosses have had the occasional comment edited or deleted in the past.

    Jeannie, I also don’t think zingzing has been gratuitously vulgar and there are no grounds for editing or deleting anything he has said in this thread.

    The comments oracle has spoken, so let’s get back to the conversation at hand…

  • zingzing

    alan, #283. matt’s right. you’re wrong.

  • zingzing

    jeannie: “There is definitely a double standard here at BC.”

    please. write under a man’s name and see if you get treated an different.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    Lisa McKay (#280), it took 10 minutes of hovering, clicking and cross-referencing at the page whose link you provided, but I finally determined that three Blogcritics editors do double duty as pseudonymous trashers of other people’s work. These are:

    Gordon Miller (Film) = El Bicho
    Nils Florman (Politics) = Clavos
    Dr Dreadful (Comments) = Dr Dreadful

    This is a disgraceful situation. I’m dismayed that you don’t alert new writers to this masquerade, where an editor is free to handle someone’s work with one hand, then pseudonymously trash it with the other. Until today, I thought this was a serious web site. Now I see it’s sophomoric.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    You would think that I work here, but I don’t. Why I like this place is beyond me. Half of these guys absolutely despise me, and yet I want to stay here and write.
    How do I move forward here? Can you tell me?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Yes, Alan, they are trashers! I have tried to play the game, ignore the game, and now I’m trying to stop the game that these guys are playing at. Roger is included.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    I’m bored with the bickering now, so I or the Doc will be deleting any more of these remarks…

  • zingzing

    is there a way to look back through the comments of a particular commenter? there used to be, but if there is one now, i haven’t found it. it was useful. it should be brought back.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    That would be an enormous undertaking, zing, having to sift through it all. Who cares anyway?

    I do get a sense anyhow as to who is who, despite the pixels. And I’m sure you do too.

  • zingzing

    it used to be a feature of the site. maybe it took up too much digital space, but it was useful to me. apparently, it wasn’t an enormous undertaking, and it’s something that the coders already know how to do (unless the redesign was a total overhaul), so it shouldn’t be too difficult to reintroduce.

    say if someone said “i remember when you told me i was a dolphin,” i could go and look if i ever told that person they were a dolphin. it’s useful. it kept people honest. i liked it. i wrote longer sentences then.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, we shouldn’t have any problem keeping honest people honest. But if the integrity ain’t there to begin with, who gives a fuck whether you convince them or not.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Somebody give me a yell when we’re back on topic.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Silas,

    I believe we might be back on topic, as soon as you remind me what it was that we were were discussing earlier on this thread.
    I would be happy to resume this debate in a civilized manner.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Quote for Today:

    “Fear less, hope more; Eat less, chew more; Whine less, breathe more; Talk less, say more; Love more, and all good things will be yours” -Swedish Proverb

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Silas,

    I looked this information up, after finding the original comment you posted here:

    [The Bunning standoff is over. So, my question is what kind of deal was made? Does it have anything to do with the fact that his foundation may be charged with fraud? Did he strike a deal in exchange for his capitulation? Barbara Boxer is Chair of the Senate Ethics Committee. I hope we hear from her.]

    From the foundation link above:
    [Senator Jim Bunning may well be the most hated man in America right now, thanks to his decision to impede the efforts of both parties to extend unemployment benefits. But he may have even bigger problems soon.]

    U.S. Senator Barbara Boxer (D-CA) today sent a letter asking Senator Jim Bunning (R-KY) to stand down in his efforts to block a short-term extension of health and unemployment benefits for jobless workers. Without Senate action, 201,000 Californians and one million Americans will lose their unemployment benefits starting Sunday night.

    We have to fight for every inch gained towards solving the numerous problems that we face right now. Please don’t stop fighting for this health care bill; it may not be perfect, but if we wait for perfection, by then, we’ll all be dead!

    :)Keep moving forward.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Here is the link:

    Jim Bunning’s Foundation

  • Baronius

    Suss – I knew a Pam McPhosphate in high school. She was a year ahead of me, so I guess she’d be 31 now. Any relation?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/alan-kurtz/ Alan Kurtz

    zingzing (#s 296, 298), it’s probably less precise than the onsite feature you recall, and it takes 24 hours for new comments to propagate, but Google is helpful in this regard. When I searched for the following, I found one of your favorite phrases, going back years. Some people don’t expand their vocabulary past the 5th grade.

    zingzing + “oh for fuck’s sake” site:blogcritics.org/

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Alan,

    Read my article, so we can continue this fascinating debate on health care. :)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baronious,

    You too! OK? I’m afraid I’ll get banned here, or, is that what you want? LOL, kidding

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Did anyone read my Swedish Proverb?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    This place is like watching the floor of the Senate, sometimes; everything gets shoved in the background….sigh

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    My sentence structure passes OK, When looking at others on this site.

    That is just a lame ploy to keep me quieter, well it doesn’t work. I have a big mouth, and I try not to hurt people with my words.

    This doesn’t always work out, but I don’t make it my vocation.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I’ll be back later. Does anyone want to talk about health care? Jim Bunning? Barbara Boxer? Taxes? The price of tea in China? :)LOL

  • zingzing

    alan: “zingzing (#s 296, 298), it’s probably less precise than the onsite feature you recall, and it takes 24 hours for new comments to propagate, but Google is helpful in this regard. When I searched for the following, I found one of your favorite phrases, going back years. Some people don’t expand their vocabulary past the 5th grade.”

    yeah, that’s far less precise than the old site feature.

    as for your little bit of snide there at the end, i’ll just have to wonder what i ever did beyond disagreeing with you to earn your fickle wrath. (and if you were speaking like that in 5th grade, someone needs to give your parents a good smacking.) if you are trying to say that using a curse word is childish, what do you think about turning into a judgmental, hateful person whenever someone disagrees with you? just asking.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Zing,

    Oh, I thought you were here to debate the issue, how disappointing.

  • zingzing

    no reason to go around spamming everywhere. i’m on your side in the health care debate, and frankly, i’m a little tired of health care as a subject. it’s been going on for too long now. i’d like to see everyone have affordable health care that gives the treatment it promises. other than that, i’m sick of talking about it because it’s just so damn disappointing. there’s no way that anything like what i describe above will pass congress.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    [Essentially, my proposal would change three things about the current health care system:

    First, it would protect all Americans from the worst practices of insurance companies. Never again will the mother with breast cancer have her coverage revoked, see her premiums arbitrarily raised, or be forced to live in fear that a pre-existing condition will bar her from future coverage.

    Second, my proposal would give individuals and small businesses the same choice of private health insurance that members of Congress get for themselves. And my proposal says that if you still can’t afford the insurance in this new marketplace, we will offer you tax credits based on your income — tax credits that add up to the largest middle class tax cut for health care in history.

    Finally, my proposal would bring down the cost of health care for everyone — families, businesses, and the federal government — and bring down our deficit by as much as $1 trillion over the next two decades. These savings mean businesses small and large will finally be freed up to create jobs and increase wages. With costs currently skyrocketing, reform is vital to remaining economically strong in the years and decades to come.

    In the few crucial weeks ahead, you can help make sure this proposal becomes law.]-President Obama

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    “A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.” – Herm Albright

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna
  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    [Updates concerning the struggle to pass the health care bill and other items that relate to health care reform, will be posted here as they become available. This is a public forum owned by, individuals, who still believe in free speech.]-Jeannie Danna

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna
  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    [Join the final march for health reform

    Both parties agree that the status quo is unacceptable and gets more dire each day. Now, it’s time to make a final decision about the future of health care in America.

    In the few crucial weeks ahead, you can help make sure the President’s proposal becomes law.

    Add your name now to join OFA’s campaign to fight alongside President Obama in the final march toward health reform — and stay tuned for national actions and events in your local community in the coming days and weeks.]-OFA “You can add your name to the list of Americans who have had enough of these, stall and obstruct games. This petition can be found in comment #322.” Thank you.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    This is a public forum owned by, individuals, who still believe in free speech.

    Wrong.

    This is an on-line magazine, a private forum owned by Technorati, which allows writers to publish articles and allows commenters to comment on the articles published, within such rules as are set by the owner. While it is impossible to comment on whether the owner believes in free speech or not, Technorati believes in making a profit.

    The misperceptions some writers here have about this site are an embarrassment to the rest of us.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Good morning, Ruvy, my friend from Jerusalem who has national health care, thanks in large part, because of the United States of America! I hope that, you and your lovely wife Adena along with your children, are well today. :)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Back to business.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Ruvy @ #324:

    While it is true that Blogcritics is now under the Technorati umbrella, it is still run by Eric, Philip and Lisa just as it was before. It is they who are the final arbiters of what goes on here and I’ve never heard of Technorati having any say in editorial decisions.

    From the many, varied and often vehement discussions which take place on the site, I think you’ll agree that Eric and his team are prepared to allow a great deal of free speech.

    As a privately-owned site there are, of course, house rules, but they are pretty relaxed and reasonable.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, I might take exception to a thing or two. It’s still an organization which allows for no dissent between the high brass.

    For example, you can’t really argue with the editors.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “I’m bored with the bickering now, so I or the Doc will be deleting any more of these remarks…”

    Apparently not. Just some of them

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Sorryyy, but Dreadful overstated the case.

  • Clavos

    For example, you can’t really argue with the editors.

    Bull.

    Glenn does a yeoman’s job of arguing with both Dave and me on an almost daily basis. So, for that matter, do you, Cindy, Mark, zingzing, Zedd — in short, everyone who frequents the site, if they’re so inclined.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Thank you for that Doc,

    I know that I come off like the voice of the Gestapo here, but this notion is just ridiculous, I am not trying to take away anyone’s fun.

    However, I do have the right to express my views without being hounded by a band of people that have no respect for me, whatsoever. They do not want to debate the issues with me or see were I am coming from.

    As many of you can see, I miss many words, add some, and also reverse their order. Now, why don’t you try reading and writing that way for a while, it’s really fun!:)

    :) My motto, Dyslexia is not a disability, it’s an ability to see the world, differently.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Clavos,

    That’ sure true!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    My use was in a very restricted sense.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Are you arguing with me or just ignoring my comments now?

    See, we all have issues, don’t we.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I’m addressing all of you.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    DD,

    I specified Technorati in my comment because I wanted to get the point across clearly that Technorati is in the business of making money. While Eric, Phil and Lisa still run the site pretty much as they did, and have more or less relaxed house rules, Eric and Phil’s paycheck come from Technorati.

    When you live on the street, and are under threat of being kicked off private property for “trespassing” if you merely lean against a tree, or fall asleep in a bathroom, you learn (as I made sure to) the distinctions between public and private property. I got the bum’s rush a few times before I cottoned on to making sure I knew which property belonged to whom.

    The most appropriate comparison to property that this magazine seems to be to me are the walkways that comprise the “skyways” in St. Paul and Minneapolis – private property open to public use with strict and specific behavioral rules enforced at the whim of the owner and his agents.

  • Clavos

    OK, Roger, in what sense?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I can’t say beyond what I’ve already said.

  • Clavos

    Well, you haven’t actually said anything specific, so at this point, you haven’t made your case.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    All I can do is refer you back to your own and Dave Nalle’s complaints. But really now, I’d rather have this matter dropped.

  • Clavos

    Don’t throw around accusations you can’t substantiate, Roger.

    And certainly not in a public forum.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    See, children. Just as I have suspected all along.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I said, let’s drop it.

  • Mark

    (Speaking of Dave, have you heard how he’s doing, Clavos?)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Why are you dropping this crap here? Why don’t you take it over to your pie?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I was very pleased while watching Senator Baucus speaking today about all of the reasons that we should accept the simple majority on Health Care reform. I was really hard on the senator in an earlier article, and I feel an apology is in order.

    Sorry, Senator Max Baucus, you do have our best interests at Heart. :)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I’ll return later, at least if my article here is not gone. LOL :)

  • Baronius

    Why? What’s up with Dave? I figured he was out of circulation because of the Texas primary, but he hasn’t come back….

  • Mark

    Kidney stone.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    He mentioned a few days ago that he had a kidney stone, so his absence may have something to do with that. Hope he’s OK.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Mark said it so much more eloquently in so fewer words.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Actually Baronius was right, he is tied up with the election. Any screams being heard from the direction of Texas may therefore be attributed either to that or to the kidney stone.

  • Mark

    lol (thumbs nose at asskissmet)

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    For example, you can’t really argue with the editors.

    Roger, you can argue with me all you want. I’ve never deleted or edited a comment I disagree with or punished a writer for writing something I disagree with.

    I’m more than capable of ridiculing you and deconstructing and disproving weak arguments on equal footing as a fellow participant in the discussion and rather enjoy doing so.

    BTW, I’be been recovering from a very long day working at the polls during the primary on Tuesday, so I have missed most of this silly argument, but from the little I’ve seen, it is indeed very silly, childish and based overwhelmingly on the ego and narcissism of certain of the participants.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Please join the President in the final march towards health care reform.

    Phraseology which reminds us of the Death March to Bataan, the Trail of Tears and Hitler’s Final Program, and quite appropriately.

    Dave

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    We never had a problem, Dave, and I don’t think we ever will.

  • zingzing

    Kinda the wrong place to put it in some ways, but this leaked republican fundraising document details just how republicans plan to raise money: fear, claiming to stop socialism, and stroking the egos of rich donors. yay! (not that that’s a surprise at all…)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Dave, Nalle,

    I too was starting to worry about you. I’m glad to see that you are well and still your old cantankerous self. Welcome back! Maybe you can edit my next tribute to Obama. :)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Zing,

    I was going to post that here, this morning but didn’t think that anyone would look at it. especially you.:(

    Look at it! What a joke this political system has really become. LOL I should join Dave and secede with Texas.

  • zingzing

    dave: “Phraseology which reminds us of the Death March to Bataan, the Trail of Tears and Hitler’s Final Program, and quite appropriately.”

    yay! hitler=obama! good one, dave! i would have hope that little problem of yours would have passed with the stone, but i guess not.

    “please join us on the death march to bataan!” not going to sell…

    “please join us on the trail of tears!” that’s one vacation i’ll skip.

    “please join us on hitler’s final program!” is that like “a very special blossom?”

    and jeannie, stop over-reacting. i disagreed with you about whether or not sussman could say what he wanted to say. and you blew it up into something it was not. the only two times i’ve had a problem with you are:

    1) i call archie a funny name, you think i’m talking to you and start writing nasty comments on one of the articles i wrote in the music section…

    and…

    2) i disagree with you here and you claim that no one has any respect for you because you’re a woman and i’m just an evil, vulgar person who never comments on articles and only wants to hurt people.

    politically, we’re in the same place, and i respect your politics. but emotionally, you tend to blow up and i like playing with fire. so we have no problems, unless you take something tiny and turn it into a mountain of dynamite. fair warning.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Zing,

    #1. You remembered! I looked my name up on Google, and freaked! What a mess I saw there. I thought you were working for Google and smearing me. What a jerk I was then. Haven’t I improved a little since?

    I remember your post, it was about an interview with a famous, musician, I can’t remember his name. I liked that article, I was just to mad and proud to admit it to you.

    :0can we start over again? I’m going to have these words engraved on my tombstone.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Wait a minute, the incident with Arch was another time.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Zing,

    I did play the double standard card, but I have been looking at this political section and wondering why?

    Why RJ never answers her comments, why Cindy never writes any articles in this section, and why Christine, who writes wonderful articles here, hardly gets the attention that she deserves. She can debate the issues as well as any of you, so why aren’t you on her thread? I feel like I am a target. I know that I ask for grief, supporting Obama out loud, but I’m not going to stop, I have strong political convictions.

    :) Bye for now, please raise hell here, it’s fun reading in the middle of the night! LOL

  • zingzing

    “Wait a minute, the incident with Arch was another time.”

    maybe there were three times then. i don’t remember the google thing, so maybe that wasn’t me. who knows. only thing i remembered is that i called archie “the ugly girl all alone at the school dance” or something like that. i come back the next day and you’re all over me.

    “can we start over again?”

    sure.

  • Clavos

    Maybe you can edit my next tribute to Obama. :)

  • Clavos

    akismet et (from #364):

    Have fun, Dave! Apparently I’ve fallen out of favor…

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Kinda the wrong place to put it in some ways, but this leaked republican fundraising document details just how republicans plan to raise money: fear, claiming to stop socialism, and stroking the egos of rich donors. yay! (not that that’s a surprise at all…)

    So, exactly the same way both parties have done it for two hundred years. See my new article on the subject.

    I too was starting to worry about you. I’m glad to see that you are well and still your old cantankerous self. Welcome back! Maybe you can edit my next tribute to Obama. :)

    Only if it’s truly fawning and insane.

    Dave

  • zingzing

    dave, they’re raping you and you like it.

  • zingzing

    or at least you’re pretending to like it, but you know it now. college girl.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Clavos,

    You never fell out of favor with me.I didn’t think you would. Would you, next time?
    I’m writing it now,and it is about a whole different subject that belongs right here in the politics section of BC.

    :)I love this place,nite,Clavos,nite BC.

  • zingzing

    goodnight,space.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Come on everone! Sing this song with me. It’s fun, and it will get your blood boiling or happy, which ever you may chose. :)

    Mm, mmm, mm!
    Barack Hussein Obama

    He said that all must lend a hand
    To make this country strong again
    Mmm, mmm, mm!
    Barack Hussein Obama

    He said we must be fair today
    Equal work means equal pay
    Mmm, mmm, mm!
    Barack Hussein Obama

    He said that we must take a stand
    To make sure everyone gets a chance
    Mmm, mmm, mm!
    Barack Hussein Obama

    He said red, yellow, black or white
    All are equal in his sight
    Mmm, mmm, mm!
    Barack Hussein Obama

    Yes!
    Mmm, mmm, mm
    Barack Hussein Obama

    Song 2:
    Hello, Mr. President we honor you today!
    For all your great accomplishments, we all doth say “hooray!”

    Hooray, Mr. President! You’re number one!
    The first black American to lead this great nation!

    Hooray, Mr. President we honor your great plans
    To make this country’s economy number one again!

    Hooray Mr. President, we’re really proud of you!
    And we stand for all Americans under the great Red, White, and Blue!

    So continue —- Mr. President we know you’ll do the trick
    So here’s a hearty hip-hooray —-

    Hip, hip hooray!
    Hip, hip hooray!
    Hip, hip hooray!

    Posted on Fox News, always fair and balanced…

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Whichever you may choose, I’ll get it right, eventually.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I’d rather talk to my own thread than any of you right now.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Quote for a new day:

    “For myself I am an optimist – it does not seem to be much use being anything else” – Winston Churchill

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    The glass is half full.

    :)nite BC

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    “Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan “press on” has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race” – Calvin Coolidge

  • http://www.LA-Story.com Stevie

    interesting thread and definitely a great piece otherwise the comments would not have proliferated to this degre.
    I don’t know why people take this across the party lines and why they can’t just see the bill as stand-alone piece of legislation that doesn’t necessarily have specific political affiliations.

    Some the rhetoric here — as seen also on Fox News & MSNBC is quite inflammatory and scares the living daylights out of the “common folk” .. rather than looking at the details, listing what you like, what you don’t like and what you want changed– and here’s the hard part, sending it on to your legislators.

    How hard is that?
    while I haven’t seen enough of the points that Jeannie has cited, I have to review them. However I do know that portability and elimination of pre-existing conditions is a huge hot-button as well as the prevention of cancellation of insurance for the most inane reasons–like seasonal allergies.
    I think the big companies like Anthem/Wellpoint and others need the wake-up call that the financial (mortgage, banking) industry got and they need to their feet to the fire to see that 9 mill a year + 180 mil + in stock options + corporate jet for the CEO is a bit insane.
    That’s money that could provide healthcare for single moms, single dads, the elderly, those who are unemployed.

    Skip the political stuff and let’s talk about what’s necessary for healthcare for all.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Unfortunately, Stevie, it’s always the political that stands in the way of doing what’s right – especially in the US.

    After all, the interests of Big Business would go unrepresented, and it’s distinctly un-American to deny corporations their free speech, let alone representation.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Stevie,

    Thank you for your comment! I just knew that you could bring another perspective to this article and thread.

    I watched Bill Moyers this morning and PBS is truly what I would call, fair and balanced.

    Here is, Wendell Potter, a former CIGNA health insurance executive who has become an outspoken critic of the industry, he said that the legislation is flawed but good enough that it should become law:

    “We need to look at this as a win for consumers as well. Yes, it’ll be a win for the insurance companies, but I don’t think we’re gonna wind up with the insurance companies walking away [and] winning the whole ball game. If we don’t do anything right now, that’s what will happen. They’ll win everything… I was distraught when I saw what happened, what I saw the Senate voting on. But then I realized – you know, I studied a lot of these efforts over the past many years to get reform – [that] often we’ve come short because we’ve tried to get the perfect, and we’ve never been able to get anything as a consequence… We need to have a foundation, and this may seem to be not an adequate foundation for a lot of people, but there are more than 50 million people in this country who don’t have insurance… Wouldn’t you rather, and I think wouldn’t most Americans rather, that we have something to start from rather than starting from scratch the next time? It’s very hard to build up to doing this in the first place… I’m frankly pretty amazed that we’re getting this close to passing something.”

    single payer is the final goal, however we will have to start here.

    I’m very happy that you read my article, Stevie, and as you can see it’s really noisy over here! :)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    That’s nice that you returned here, Roger, but unfortunate that you still carry that chip around with you.

    :)That’s OK though, because I am now learning to tolerate you.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    “Courage doesn’t always roar. Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, “I will try again tomorrow.” – Mary Anne Radmacher

    :)nite, BC

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Quote for the day:

    “I am not afraid of tomorrow, for I have seen yesterday and I love today.” -William Allen White

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    “There is little difference in people, but that little difference makes a big difference. The little difference is attitude. The big difference is whether it is positive or negative.” – W. Clement Stone my former boss

    :)Nite, BC

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    “How soon ‘not now’ becomes ‘never’.” – Martin Luther king

    We are not dropping the ball here.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna
  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    8

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    interactive map

    Comprehensive health care reform legislation is still pending in Congress, but 36 state legislatures have already taken steps to undermine key aspects of the legislation. If these efforts were to be enacted, these states would be left out of federal programs that would help them expand coverage for more of their residents, essentially refusing more than $28 billion a year in federal funds from the Medicaid program alone.

    South Dakota Governor Mike Rounds, for example, halted efforts by the state legislature to pass a bill that would nullify the mandate for every individual to be insured within the state. South Dakota could lose more than $105 million in Medicaid revenue a year if this effort to stop health care reform succeeds.

    The pending federal health care reform proposals would expand eligibility for the Medicaid program to everyone with incomes at or below poverty. Medicaid, which currently provides health insurance to 47 million low-income individuals, is a critical safety net for Americans who cannot otherwise afford health insurance coverage. States and the federal government have traditionally shared responsibility for funding the program. But because Medicaid eligibility rules leave many low-income Americans without coverage, some states fund additional programs to cover or provide care to those in poverty but still ineligible for Medicaid.

    The health care reform proposal passed by the U.S. Senate on December 24, 2009 expands the income eligibility for the Medicaid program to 133 percent of the federal poverty level, or income of about $30,000 a year for a family of four. The bill passed by the House expands Medicaid to 150 percent of poverty, or $33,000 a year for a family of four. Both bills represent the largest expansion in the history of the Medicaid program. This expansion will be entirely funded by federal funds for the first several years.

    But the $28 billion in Medicaid money is not the whole picture. These reforms will extend Medicaid coverage to nearly 8 million individuals in these states, while millions more will qualify for premium subsidies to help purchase private coverage through health insurance exchanges. This will reduce costs for employers, state governments, and insured individuals, because as these uninsured individuals and families gain coverage, the cost-shift of uncompensated care will diminish. It will also help states out because these new Medicaid eligibility levels will absorb those under 133 percent of the poverty level in state insurance programs, with full federal support for the first several years of the program.

    The bills also include new incentives and payment systems within the Medicaid program that will make the program more efficient, resulting in lower costs over the long run. Federal funds would also go to states in the form of grants to promote local clinics.

    The state “nullification” efforts take various forms. On February 9, 2010 the Virginia legislature became the first to prohibit the federal government from requiring every Virginian to have insurance. Later that week, the Utah House passed legislation that would allow the state to opt out of all provisions in the national health care reform bills, including eliminating the pre-existing condition exclusion and expanding coverage to the uninsured and dependents. If all 33 states currently considering strategies for opting out of a reformed health care system take similar action, these states will leave unclaimed considerable federal funding for their low-income residents.
    Methodology

    These estimates represent projected federal Medicaid matching payments, assuming full implementation of the Senate health reform bill, using 2009 dollars. The major components of these estimates include federal payments for adults and children who are currently eligible for Medicaid, but do not participate in the program, and federal payments for individuals who would become eligible for Medicaid coverage under the expansion provisions included in the Senate reform bill.

    We first calculated spending for individuals who are currently eligible but are not enrolled in Medicaid coverage. We developed these estimates using 2009 spending for current enrollees (adults and children) and 2009 federal Medicaid matching rates. We assumed that the Senate bill’s requirement that all individuals hold coverage would generate higher Medicaid participation rates for this group under health reform.

    We also calculated projected federal Medicaid spending for newly eligible individuals using participation and spending projections in 2009 dollars, assuming that all costs accrue to the federal government.

    Spending per enrollee and Medicaid participation vary state by state, and will continue to vary under health reform. However, to provide aggregate estimates, we used national average spending and participation rates by enrollment group. Spending estimates do not include a 5 percent administrative load.

    Download this memo (pdf)
    References

    The Urban Institute. 2010. Health Insurance Policy Simulation Model, unpublished output.

    Holahan, John and Linda J. Blumberg. 2010. “How Would States Be Affected by Health Reform?” Washington: The Urban Institute.

    Emma Sandoe is an intern with the health care team at American Progress.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Same old story, Jeannie.

    It’s always been public interest against private interests. And those states are really showing their true colors as to where their loyalty really lies.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    Thank you for commenting! I feel sooo lonely over here on my little island thread, but it’s my own fault for trying to kick everyone out…:)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, anyway, my take is that they’re preparing for eventual defeat. But it’s not going to work.

    The states won’t be able to stop people from enrolling in the federal funded program. I don’t see how they could. So again, the way I see it, it’s a swan song.

    Now, let me watch a movie. Later.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I’m almost finished with my article and then it’s off to your’ three hour documentary? or is it a movie? There is also Christine’s article! and somewhere in-between here I have to cook.

    :)bye

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Courtesy of Geek Girl,

    “Inside every older person is a younger person wondering what the hell happened.”
    Cora Harvey Armstrong

    :)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    This should really scare everyone away! Final march, call in for health care reform!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger, I have definitely earned my little inch of cyberspace here. Wouldn’t you agree?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Almost finished with this new article, I hope that I get to comment on it.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I have told you that your arguments have become much more cogent and on point. You are developing them better and make your points stick.

    It could be that this quality is newly acquired, but I tend to disbelieve this. It’s more likely the case that you were being somewhat coy before – still are, and for understandable reasons – but have come to a realization that perhaps another approach would be more effective.

    Consequently, you shifted gears. And that’s good mark of adaptation.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I’m not coy…;)and thanks! Roger, this is really a compliment coming from you. I have really been studying my history lately, and all the things that I missed when I was young. Now, I just pray I that I live a long time!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    “We cannot be satisfied until all our people have equal opportunities for jobs, for homes, for education, for health, and for political expression, and until all our people have equal protection under the law.” – President Harry S. Truman 1947

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    “All the president is, is a glorified public relations man who spends his time flattering, kissing, and kicking people to get them to do what they are supposed to do anyway.” – Harry S. Truman

    :)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna
  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    “Democracy cannot succeed unless those who express their choice are prepared to choose wisely. The real safeguard of democracy, therefore, is education.”- Franklin D. Roosevelt

    :)nite BC

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    President Obama just signed the health care reform bill into law. : )

  • Boeke

    Good article.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Thank you, Boeke, that means a lot coming from you.

  • jeannie danna
  • http://digg.com/rodiogal Jeannie Danna

    :D Don’t start drooling, GOP. HEALTH CARE REFORM will push forward not backward. SINGLE-PAYER OR PUBLIC OPTION inevitable…

  • -jeannie

    :D Today, Feb 2nd 2011, Health Care repeal failed in Senate. May we all put this game to rest now and create jobs for Americans?