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The Executive Order 13489 Fallacy

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One of the spurious claims being circulated by the Birther fringe is that one of President Obama's first acts in office was to issue Executive Order 13489 (PDF), which they claim was intended to seal away his birth certificate, school records and other evidence that he is not a United States citizen or otherwise unqualified to be President.

However, this executive order is virtually the same as Executive Order 123283 (PDF), which President George W. Bush issued early in his presidency and which it replaced. That executive order is in turn virtually identical to its predecessor Executive Order 12667 which was issued by President Reagan. All of these orders deal specifically with the National Archive and its role in preserving presidential papers and records. The orders refer only to records generated by the office of the President during his administration which have been kept by the National Archive since that institution was created in 1934.

Starting with Reagan it has been the practice of successive presidents to keep their operating records secret until a later date when they are made public as part of the comprehensive record of their presidency. This concern over the secrecy of White House records clearly originated in the aftermath of the Nixon presidency, which explains the discussion of executive privilege in the orders in question. It's equally clear that none of these prior presidents had any interest in concealing President Obama's birth records.

However, what none of these Executive Orders have any authority over are documents which were not generated by the President's office while he was serving. They do not apply to state records like birth certificates or private records like school transcripts. The President does not have the authority to seal those records by executive order even if he wanted to, and nothing in these Executive Orders even attempts to do so.

This is a classic example of people looking at a document with a conclusion already in mind, and mistakenly assuming that the document they are looking at supports their preconceived conclusion solely because of some superficial characteristic which may not actually be relevant. In this case the logical fallacy is the assumption that if President Obama is keeping records secret those records must relate to his birth certificate or school records because you already believe those things to be falsifications which he would want to cover up.

This is an example of the Existential fallacy or Vacuous Truth fallacy which is often demonstrated in the classic False Antecedent Syllogism. In this case:

  • President Obama has a Kenyan Birth Certificate.
  • President Obama is keeping documents secret.
  • Therefore President Obama is keeping his birth certificate secret.
  • To those already inclined to belief this may sound good, but in fact there is no proven foundation for the first assertion and no actual causal link between the second premise and the conclusion. It's a compound logical error originating with that unproven assumption which the evidence introduced doesn't actually support despite all claims..

    This problem of misreading documents which have some superficial elements that can be misconstrued by those inclined to look for nefarious meanings is remarkably common. It becomes even worse when the documents deal with legal terms or concepts which the readers are unfamiliar with, or when they use foreign phrases, usually in Latin, which can be easily mistranslated to produce nonsensical or self-serving results.

    Entire pyramids of conspiracy theory are built on this kind of illogic, and their delusional adherents will cling to them relentlessly so that their entire delusional world view isn't brought crashing down by pointing out their foundational error.

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    About Dave Nalle

    • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

      Nice job burning up a straw man, Dave. Would you like me to toss in a match to your fire, or would that be a “foreign flame that had not been commanded”?

    • http://thesteadydrip.blogspot.com/ Sam Sewell

      Well you are right about the Executive Order!

      It is inappropriate to use the phrase “Birther fringe” It is not irrational or “fringe” to want information include Obama’s missing history including his birth certificate. The facts, not theories, of the issue are clear and uncontested.

      Obama is keeping the best available evidence secret. That is established fact, not theory. Let’s just add suppression of evidence to the other charges of election fraud, campaign finance violations and filing fraudulent documents in all 50 states.

      No matter what you might think there is no escaping that AKA Obama is not practicing the virtue of full disclosure.

      In 1961, the Public Health Services, U. S Department of Health, Education and Welfare, National Center for Health Statistics, National Vital Statistics Division published the “Vital Statistics of the United States

      Here is a blank copy of the Standard Certificate of Live Birth used by all states including Hawaii. This is the information being hidden by Obama.

      Plus read the article that is included with the blank copy.

      Here is what a real Hawaiian Birth Certificate looks like.

      If you are not suspicious of a man who hides his history I have a bridge in the desert I want to sell you.

      If you are unwilling to call for an investigation of a man who attempts to sell you a bridge in the desert I have some beach front property in Florida at the intersection of I75 and Florida # 29 that I want you to buy.

      If you place a down payment on a contract for the bridge in the desert and the beach front property in the swamp I would conclude that you voted for Obama

      Do you really think AKA Obama would have won the election if all the things he is hiding were made known?

      Do you really think AKA Obama will be able to finish his first term if all the things he is hiding are made known?

      The only conspiracy is the media and the obots who suppress the revelation of AKA Obama’s history.

      Obama “I have nothing to hide but I’m hiding it.”

    • Glenn Contrarian

      Wow. I do so enjoy real surprises, things I truly didn’t expect. Good on you, Dave – it takes courage to stand up for what is right…and this is especially true considering your position within the Republican Liberty Caucus, and when many (and perhaps most) of those who sympathize with the Tea Party are either birthers or who claim to be unsure about the issue.

      You skillfully stood up for what is right against many of your own who (like you) strongly oppose the president. That took real courage, Dave. That took guts. Bravo Zulu to you!

    • Glenn Contrarian

      Sam –

      Were you aware that in 1999, Hawaii decided to save taxpayer money by getting rid of the hard-copy paper files of millions of birth certificates and digitalized all of them? The digitalization of such records is safer and more secure than keeping the hard copy (except in case of EMP). THAT, sir, is why Obama doesn’t have an original. What he does have – like the majority of other kama’aina who don’t have an original locked away in a safe deposit box – is a birth certificate that looks precisely like the birth certificate of my son who was born in Tripler Army Medical Center on O’ahu.

      BUT if you’ll go back to the microfiche archives of the Honolulu Advertiser from August 4th, 1961, you’ll find the name of Barack H. Obama in the list of birth announcements. In fact, here and here are links to scans of that particular issue of the Honolulu Advertiser.

      So either you’ll see just wrong the ‘birther’ argument is and courageously join Dave Nalle in trying to bring a measure of common sense to your Tea Party…

      …or you must then believe that this ‘grand conspiracy’ started in August of 1961 with commie Kenyan secret agents forcing the editor of the Honolulu Advertiser at gunpoint to insert the name “Barack H. Obama” on the list of births so they would someday have a Manchurian Candidate of their own, and that They Knew that half a century later their grand scheme would come to fruition and the child they had hidden in secret back in Nairobi would someday have his trigger finger on the American Nuclear Stockpile!!!!!!

      It’s your choice, Sam – sanity, or insanity. Sometimes sanity takes more courage than one might expect.

      Nairobi – nice city when you’re downtown, but the slums aren’t so nice. The airport is at least as nice as the one in Jackson, the capital of the state of Mississippi.

    • STM

      Obama doesn’t have a Kenyan birth certificate, especially not if it’s the one the birthers were touting around on the internet.

      The form they used is wrong, for a start; it’s a copy of an Australian birth certificate issued by the State of South Australia, with the names changed and the “Republic of Kenya” stamp on it.

      For a start, not all birth certificates in the British Commonwealth are alike. They vary from state to state in Australia, for instance, and all are totally different to the British certificates, which are “long” rather than “deep”.

      The Kenyan certificate had one really glaring error, however. At the time it was supposedly issued and stamped with the Republic of Kenya stamp, it wasn’t a republic. It was independent, but as a Dominion, like Canada … not a republic. That didn’t happen until a year later.

      It helps to know this stuff, and to do your homework if you’re going to whack fake Kenyan certificates out there on the net.

      What Gleen says is true, too … and well documented. All Hawaiians now seeking a birth certificate get a printout taken from the digital records.

      Obama’s does, however, list his place of birth: Hawaii. Even Hawaiian republicans are embarrassed by the birther thing, because they know the truth.

    • STM

      And don’t be too surprised by Dave’s position here Glenn … he’s no fan of conspiracy nuts, except for the fun to be had while we all have a good giggle at their expense.

      Dave’s political views might not always jell with yours (or mine), but they’re at least rooted in sanity and reality.

      He has a great website: idiotwars. Check it out … there’s hours of fun in there.

    • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

      STM, it’s not just Hawaiians. A lot of states went to digital birth certificates as part of a general effort to reduce physical paperwork in the 1990s. It’s not even particularly unusual.

      And Glenn, liberty is founded in truth and reason. You can’t be free if you let yourself be ruled by fear and delusion. The same reasons I oppose the statist oppression of the left leads me to oppose the oppression of ignorance and delusion. Two sides of the same coin.

      As for the Birther delusion, it’s actually mostly a fantasy of a small crazy minority and those who express doubt on a poll are just not well informed because our media sucks so much. The main originators of the Birther idiocy are actually Democrats and politically quite far left.

      Dave

    • Doug Hunter

      Good article, I enjoy the occasional area where I can agree with people across the political spectrum. This has crossed far, far into hyperconspiracy foolishness.

      First of all, I don’t see the need for or agree with the ‘natural born’ requirement and believe it has outlived it’s purpose as the country has matured. Secondly, Obama was born in Hawaii making the whole argument pointless.

      The time for this, if there ever was one, has long passed. President Obama has been elected and if you truly want to see him out of office my advice would be to quit alienating rational people with this sick conspiratorial obsession.

    • Baronius

      I didn’t even know that birthers were still out there.

    • ksdb

      Glenn, the 1961 newspaper announcements don’t show a place of birth. So far the state of Hawaii has refused to say that Obama’s alleged COLB is real. Factlack dot org took some photos of the alleged document that contain a certificate number that according to Hawaii policies and procedures and other known certificates, can’t be genuine. When asked to authenticate the number, despite having statutory authority under Hawaii Revised Statute 388-18 (d), they refuse. Furthermore, DOH director Chiyome Fukino said that Obama’s original birth certificate was not sufficient to prove Obama’s place of birth and had to rely on unnamed documents, which have no guarantee of accuracy. Obama’s own wife said that Kenya is his home country (where he was born). If his own wife is a crazy birther, then she probably knows what’s up.

    • ksdb

      Just a quick correction: That should say 338-18(d) (not 388). That is the statute on Index Data for vital records which CAN be released to the public. Certificate numbers are permissible information to release according to a 1990 opinion letter posted here:

      http://hawaii.gov/oip/opinionletters/opinion%2090-23.pdf

      Nothing in the current law prohibits the release of the number. It would be the quickest, easiest and legal way for Hawaii to confirm that Obama’s alleged COLB is real, but the DOH refuses.

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      the 1961 newspaper announcements don’t show a place of birth.

      Still doesn’t explain why Obama’s parents (or whoever) would go to the lengths of placing the birth announcement in a Hawaii newspaper on the off-chance that their son would one day want to run for president.

    • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

      Ok, everything kdsb says in his first post is untrue. Each of those points is directly refuted at snopes.com.

      Dave

    • Glenn Contrarian

      Baronius –

      I didn’t even know that birthers were still out there.

      I really do wonder if you’re being sarcastic…but in case you aren’t, here’s some more facts that you believe I’m so given to misinterpreting:

      The above reference is concerning a Louis Harris poll from the third week of March which found that:

      45% of Republicans believe that President Obama was “not born in the United States and so is not eligible to be president.”

      57% of Republicans believe that President Obama is a Muslim.

      67% of Republicans believe Obama is a socialist.

      38% of Republicans believe that Obama is “doing many things Hitler did.”

      24% of Republicans agree that Obama “may be the antiChrist.”

      The poll also found that voters lacking a college education are much more likely to agree with more extreme myths and rumors about the 44th president.

      But I’m sure this is just another case of my ‘misinterpreting the facts’.

    • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

      …liberty is founded in truth and reason. You can’t be free if you let yourself be ruled by fear and delusion.

      I applaud Dave for this article, even though as you can see it is already drawing conspiracy crazies like honey draws flies.

      I also hope he will keep his own quotation above in mind the next time he is tempted to use intemperate words or praise the outlandish rhetoric of others; or use distorted, partial or made-up “facts” to spread pernicious propaganda about issues and individuals, most recently of course the health reform bill.

      If he would indeed do that, the general atmosphere around here would improve several hundred per cent.

    • ksdb

      Dr. Dreadful, you’re premise is dreadful. Obama’s maternal grandparents were Kansans and would have wanted to make sure their grandchild was an American citizen. If the child was born outside of the United States, the best way to ensure this would be by registering the birth locally. There’s no reason to assume there was some long-term nefarious plan to make this kid a politician, just a U.S. citizen. The Dunham’s daughter was too young to impart U.S. citizenship by giving birth abroad, unless it was out of wedlock. Even then, they still probably would have wanted to claim him locally. The standard of proof in Hawaii for births is very low. HRS 338-6 says:

      “If neither parent of the newborn child whose birth is unattended as provided in section 338-5 is able to prepare a birth certificate, the local agent of the department of health shall secure the necessary information from any person having knowledge of the birth and prepare and file the certificate.”

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      ksdb, HRS 338-6 has nothing to do with the standard of proof. It concerns the registration of births in cases where the parents are unavailable or incapable. That wasn’t the case with the Obamas.

    • ksdb

      Dave Nalle, you’re being lazy. Don’t rely on incompetent, amateur fact checkers to cloud your judgement. You look at each claim I made point by point and tell me what the actual evidence shows:

      1) What place of birth is listed in the 1961 birth announcements. Give the name of the city and/or hospital.

      2) Find ANY direct statement by ANY official in Hawaii that says the jpg posted by Obama is genuine.

      3) Find ANY direct quote from ANY official in Hawaii that confirms that certificate number 151 1961 010641 belongs to Obama.

      4) From Chiyome Fukino’s July 2009 statement, tell me the names of the specific documents that were cited to support that Obama was born in Hawaii … direct statements.

      5) Michelle Obama said, “Barack has led by example. When we took our trip to Africa and visited his home country in Kenya, …”

      The clip is on YouTube:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=proi6NFdKVs

    • ksdb

      Dr. Dreadful, tell me what documentary evidence you have to show how Obama’s birth was registered. The only thing I’ve seen is a jpg that the state of Hawaii refuses to confirm as genuine. It doesn’t show whether the parents were available to sign the original certificate. Please provide some real evidence.

    • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

      ksdb: is this all you do, all day, every day?

      My deepest sympathies to you and anyone who cares about you.

    • ksdb

      handy, expect better of yourself. Feel free to refute anything I’ve posted.

    • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

      Mr. K: Pray enlighten us. Why is this issue so important to you? Have you ever questioned any previous president’s bona fides?

      What are your opinions about the president’s policies? Do you vote? Are there actual issues that interest you?

      Do you also have fascinating tidbits to share about, oh, say, 9/11, or the JFK assassination, or alien autopsies? Is Paul dead? What’s your moon sign?

      We’re all waiting with baited breath, since you obviously are the repository of much wisdom.

    • ksdb

      handy, focus. The story being discussed is about Obama’s attempt to conceal the truth about his nativity. While he isn’t doing that with the executive order, he is certainly hiding it through other means.

    • Baronius

      Lemme beat Clavos on this one: “bated breath”. It’s Shakespearean. Otherwise, carry on, Handy.

    • doug m

      This explains why my cuckoo clock isn’t working

    • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

      Dave: “The main originators of the Birther idiocy are actually Democrats and politically quite far left.”

      I’d like to see some back-up on this. Otherwise, I am tempted to relegate it to Dave’s “blame the Dems for anything and everything as often as possible” file.

      Orly Taitz may mostly be a mentally unbalanced dentist, but she has run for office [or tried to] as a Republican. No lefty she.

    • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

      A quick Google search confirms that Mr/Ms kdsb has stained many web sites with his/her repetitive obsession disorder.

      It’s of course tempting to engage in back and forth debate, but that way madness lies.

      It’s akin to arguing with a Holocaust denier. [Ruvy, and Orly, please note.]

    • ksdb

      handy, if you can argue the topic, do so. I gave very specific points and supported with links. Focus.

    • Baronius

      Philip Berg was one of the lawyers who sued over Obama’s birth certificate. He’s a Democrat from Philly, and suppored Hillary Clinton during the 2008 campaign.

    • http://vanquishtinnitus.com Stamon

      I cannot remember who first said this (Oscar Wilde, perhaps?), and I may be paraphrasing, so if any of you can help me be more precise, I’d appreciate it. I’m providing the quote first (as I recall it), and then I’ll explain how it seems to apply to the birthers in particular, and to current political discourse in general.

      “You cannot reason someone out of anything that they were never reasoned into.”

      My great frustration when speaking with birthers of my acquaintance is that evidence and logic simply have no effect on their opinions. I find that same frustration nearly across the board in today’s political discourse. There’s a huge disconnect that reason cannot bridge. When reason no longer works….Yipes!

    • ksdb

      I notice that faithers have a lazy tendency to attack skeptics on personality characteristics or toss up lame insults. I challenged the author with a very specific list of things that you can ALL check yourselves. The fact that NO faither has responded to that challenge is very telling. It’s time to quit carrying water for a fraud. Expect better. There’s no shame in asking for full disclosure. If Obama is legit, he should be able to prove it. So far, he just hides. That too, is very telling.

    • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

      Philip Berg is a 9/11 truther as well as a birther and general all around troublemaker.

      Very few Democrats, no doubt including Hillary Clinton, would warmly welcome him as a colleague. He was also making the rounds at CPAC earlier this year.

    • http://hubpages.com/hub/Is-The-Weber-566002-Q-220-Gas-Grill-The-Perfect-Portable-Grill Madame Butterfly

      I think native Hawaiians wouldn’t want you to use the term “kama’aina” to refer to anyone who is born in Hawaii. In fact it refers to those who are from the land (aka, natives, indigenous people), not simply someone who was born there. Obama is not kama’aina, nor is anyone born there that is not native hawaiian.

    • Glenn Contrarian

      M.B. –

      Point taken, and quite understandable. It is somewhat confusing, though, when anyone who lives there long-term (as we did) is given a “kama’aina” sticker to put on his or her driver’s license so they can get the “kama’aina” rates rather than having to pay the same prices as the tourists do.

    • STM

      kdsb, give yourself an uppercut while you still can.

    • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

      45% of Republicans believe that President Obama was “not born in the United States and so is not eligible to be president.”

      Results are only as good as the questions asked. There are ways to word a question like this to produce an inflated result. Show me the question and I bet it will include a phrase like “is it possible” which would easily skew the results.

      57% of Republicans believe that President Obama is a Muslim.

      See above.

      67% of Republicans believe Obama is a socialist.

      An understandable belief. People don’t use these terms with precision. Hell, the n umber should probably be higher.

      38% of Republicans believe that Obama is “doing many things Hitler did.”

      Who can argue with this? A question that broad. 100% should have answered yes. I do many things Hitler did every day myself. Not the more unusual and horrible things, of course.

      24% of Republicans agree that Obama “may be the antiChrist.”

      I’m glad the number is that low. And again “may be” — hell, I “may be” the antichrist.

      The poll also found that voters lacking a college education are much more likely to agree with more extreme myths and rumors about the 44th president.

      Not a shock either.

      If you polled a similar number of Democrats with the right questions about Republicans or the Tea Party you could get equally stupid answers in similar proportions. Back when Bush was in power Democrats said all sorts of ridiculous things about him and they were widely believed.

      More manufactured outrage…blah.

      Dave

    • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

      Dave: “The main originators of the Birther idiocy are actually Democrats and politically quite far left.”

      I’d like to see some back-up on this. Otherwise, I am tempted to relegate it to Dave’s “blame the Dems for anything and everything as often as possible” file.

      It’s widely documented Papa Birther Phil Berg is a long-time Democrat.

      Dave

    • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

      Yes, Baronius and I beat you to this, see 29 and 32.

      But Phil Berger is singular in many ways, and in no sense representative of any wider group of Dems. He likes seeing himself on TV and certainly will love the fact that we are citing him here.

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      kdsb:

      It doesn’t show whether the parents were available to sign the original certificate.

      Why wouldn’t they have been?

      Please provide some real evidence.

      I don’t have to. You’re the one making the claim. The burden of proof is on you.

    • Baronius

      Dave, that “poll” was an online survey. The tipoff was that it didn’t even have a margin of error. Real polls show that far too many Republicans believe this garbage, but nowhere near these levels.

      Handy, I don’t think the average Democrat believes that President Obama was born in Kenya. But I remember those stories coming out of the scorched-earth Democratic primaries, then being taken up by the more gullible Ron Paul people.

    • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

      who is this person, plagiarizing me?

    • ksdb

      Dr. dreadful, you made an affirmative claim. It is YOUR burden to support it.

      “It concerns the registration of births in cases where the parents are unavailable or incapable. That wasn’t the case with the Obamas.”

      What documentary evidence do you have that shows the Obamas were available to sign the original birth certificate?? The alleged COLB gives no evidence of parental signatures. We know Obama’s mama was in Washington state within days after he was born if not sooner … without Obama’s papa. There’s no hard evidence that puts the two of them together at the time of the baby’s birth nor that they were ones who registered the birth. The burden is on you to prove YOUR claim.

    • STM

      Doc: “I don’t have to. You’re the one making the claim. The burden of proof is on you.”

      Mate, they’ve already tried that and it didn’t work because they buggered it up. They couldn’t find any fair-dinkum proof so they resorted to making it up … the fake Kenyan birth certificate, which was actually a copy of one from the 1960s issued by the State of South Australia – and even in its paper form looked nothing like the ones issued in Kenya at the time.

      A bloke called David Bomford, an Australian public servant living in Adelaide, had posted his certificate online as part of a family geneology project. So they grabbed that and divvied up a bodgy one for Obama.

      The names of the registrar etc were identical to the alleged official Obama Kenyan birth certificate. What a joke. After that effort, how could anyone believe this crap – even birthers with half a brain?

      What, did they think the birth certicicates were all the same because they were from a a Commonwealth country? Each state in Australia issues a different looking certificate. And the actual UK certificates are completely different again.

      Plus – and I know I sound like a broken record on this but this IS a hoot – they’re really dumb and an embarrasment to themselves, their suppose cause, and their own country … they didn’t do their homework: they put a fake Republic of Kenya stamp on it dated a year before Kenya became a republic. Yes, it was independent at the time, but as a Dominion, not a republic, and they didn’t know the difference.

      It’s like Canada issuing “Republic of Canada” documents.

      If you are going to use bullsh.t to back up your arguments, it’s a really good idea to do your homework first.

      Since that attempt, we’ve seen nothing that even looks like a genuine attempt to offer positive proof of their argument, except for a load of old bollocks propped up by nothing more than smoke-and-mirrors conspiracy theories that have absolutely no basis in fact.

    • ksdb

      stm, the Kenyan certificate you’re referring to was forged by an Obamapologist named Steve Ellis who was trying to discredit a certificate that Orly was going to produce. That didn’t come from any so-called birthers.

      Please review post #18. I gave a very specific list of problems with Obama’s nativitity claims. Show some bollocks and see if you can explain the inconsistencies. So far, faithers are like O fer 25 since I posted that list.

    • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

      And although there is plenty of repetitive, meaningless “evidence” about a lack of documentation, there is no proof whatsoever of any actual act of deception or “hiding” of anything.

      Mr. Obama is president now, he will be president for at least 33 more months, and very probably 81 more. And will you still be jabbering this nonsense then?

    • STM

      ksdb: “So far, faithers are like O fer 25 since I posted that list.”

      No mate … not 0-25. We don’t have to actually prove anything. You do.

      And I’m not a faither, I just keep the bullsh.t detector switched to extreme when conversing with certain sections of the American populace.

      The moonbat section.

      Also, Orly Taitz was touting this certificate around and claiming it to be 100 per cent right.

      Let’s hear from “Steve Ellis”, who appears to be strangely silent and nothing more than a name on the web.

      Unlike Ms Taitz.

    • ksdb

      stm, I proved my points and provided links. Try dealing with any one of the five points I mentioned. Quit making excuses.

    • STM

      But there’s a conspiracy I CAN believe in. One cooked up by the birthers to cover up their own idiocy in trying to bodgy up an Aussie birth certificate to look like a Kenyan one.

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      Dr. dreadful, you made an affirmative claim. It is YOUR burden to support it.

      I made no claim whatsoever. You did. What planet are you living on?

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      And, ksdb (or whatever your name is):

      Based on your own five criteria, can you prove unequivocally what your birthplace and citizenship is?

    • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

      Dave, that “poll” was an online survey.

      Aha. If those things had any value at all, Ron Paul would be president now.

      Dave

    • ksdb

      Dr. Dreadful (oh how, apropos), I quoted your affirmative claim directly and constructed a direct question based on that claim. Man up.

    • ksdb

      Dr. D,

      1) I have a birth certificate from the hospital where I was born signed by the hospital administrator and attending physician.

      2) N/A … I’m not running for office and didn’t post a redacted, photoshopped jpg on a Web site, nor did I let amateur factcheckers take photos that can’t be verified. I am also not forcing the local department of health cover for me.

      3) See No. 2

      4) I’ve got a birth certificate from the actuall hospital. Obama … not so much.

      5) My wife doesn’t tell people that my home country is anything other than the United States. I have English and Irish ancestors, but we don’t claim Great Britain to be our home country.

    • STM

      Mate, answer the question. Don’t look for wriggle room. There isn’t any.

    • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

      I don’t believe ksdb has a birth certificate or a wife

    • STM

      All that stuff could be fake, and you know it. You have to prove it’s not. Can you?

      In fact, never mind the documentation, YOU might not actually exist.

      The Beatles might have been right on the money … it could be a case of “nothing is real”.

      The Matrix – not looking so silly after all (except for Keanu Reeves’ “performance”).

      Keanu has a Canadian birth certificate. The birthers should have used that to bodgy one up for Barack.

    • ksdb

      I addressed the questions. Of couse, I don’t have a Constitutional obligation to be qualified for an elective office. Now who has the bollocks to explain those same questions for the Fraud-in-Chief?? You faithers keep stalling and tossing pointless insults. Is that all you people really have?? Where’s your self-respect and integrity??

    • STM

      “Where’s your self-respect and integrity??”

      Where’s yours??

    • ksdb

      Let us pray. Poor stm has been reduced to nonsensical parroting.

    • STM

      Why should anyone who likes Obama complain, though?

      This kind of stuff does his cause endless good.

    • STM

      What we really need is a photo of Obama being born, with a doctor or a nurses (who can be tracked down to verify it) holding up a copy of that day’s Honolulu Advertiser in the background.

      Anyone got one? That’ll shut ‘em up.

    • http://www.xanga.com/bastet Lynn Voedisch

      I’m amazed that such silliness is still going on.
      1. Not everyone gets an original birth certificate. In Cook Couty, Illinois, where I live. I have a dupilicate. That’s all I’ve ever had. That’s all I’ve ever will have. The state of Hawaii is not unusual in this regard. And if it has withstood several court challenges to its records and still came out the winner, I’d say there’s no reason to question them. Even Clarence Freaking Thomas refused to hear a complaint against them.

      2. Michelle Obama, IF she said Barack was going “home,” probably meant it in the sense of visiting the ancestral home. This is extremely common, usually among blacks, but among many other cultural groups too. Some in my family talked about “going home” to Sweden, when they were born right here in the USA. When the phrase is used with travel, it’s almost always likely to mean visiting the place of the forefathers andd mothers. Michelle is not stupid enough to mean Barack was going to his place of birth. Not only does she know the facts, she also knows what speculation a statement like that could start. She’s a lawyer too. And a lot smarter than a bunch of birthers.

      3. The Constitution has never been clear on what a “naturally born citizen” is. So the courts have tended to take the position that if one or both parents are American citizens and will bring the child up as an American, then the child has American citizenship. So, a child born at sea was American. Or a child born in a foreign country, but to return to America, was American.
      So, IT DOESN’T MATTER if Obama was born on the North Pole. His mother was American, and planned to bring him up in America, in Hawaii. Case closed. Precedent set.
      Find another conspiracy.

    • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

      The real question is what are you prepared to do about with the truth, ksdb. The rest of us have an excuse because we don’t get it, but you are aware of the issue and sit idly by while Obama illegally serves the country. What are you doing about it? Put up or shut up.

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      kdsb: This is what I stated:

      “It concerns the registration of births in cases where the parents are unavailable or incapable. That wasn’t the case with the Obamas.

      Now would you mind telling me how a sentence containing the word “wasn’t” is an affirmative statement?

      Jeez…

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      What we really need is a photo of Obama being born, with a doctor or a nurses (who can be tracked down to verify it) holding up a copy of that day’s Honolulu Advertiser in the background.

      No, that wouldn’t cut it. The doctors and nurses could have been anywhere, and the newspaper could have been flown in specially, because, you know, that baby might want to run for president of the United States one day.

      Even if the photo showed the open window of the delivery room with Diamond Head visible in the background, these nongs still wouldn’t be convinced.

    • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

      if there was a photo like that, I bet it would have been taken on the soundstage where they faked the moon landing

    • STM

      EB, don’t mention “truth” in the same breath as “birth” … you know where that leads.

      Seriously, the real question in regard to Obama’s birthplace is why Hawaii, a state of the US, has a Union Jack on its flag.

      This should be an obvious clue to everyone with hallf a brain that the British are actually running the US, and are intent on using the US as a front for de facto world domination, and because of their link with Hawaii have chosen the Kenyan/Briton Obama to lead this imperialist plot and in the process, destroy the constitution of the United States.

      This is the real issue, guys … not fake birth certificates. The birthers don’t realise it but there are bigger things afoot here – the birth certificate issue is actually a red herring designed to siphon people’s attention away from what’s really going on here.

      Why do you think one of the first things Obama did after winning office was to visit The Queen.

      Anyone who doubts the veracity of this should google CFR, the Council on Foreign Relations, which has another chapter in London called Chatham House.

      And Rhodes scholarships … that’s the other clue – check out how many Americans who reach high office win them and go to the UK to study before returning to the US to begin their careers in public life.

      Something REALLY fishy there.

    • STM

      “Nongs.”

      One of my fave terms. Good on yer Doc.

      Highly descriptive don’t ya reckon?

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      @ #54:

      1) I have a birth certificate from the hospital where I was born signed by the hospital administrator and attending physician.

      Prove it. Who were this administrator and this physician? Produce them. Have them sign a sworn affidavit that you were delivered in the place claimed on your birth certificate.

      2) N/A … I’m not running for office…

      Don’t dodge the question.

      3) See No. 2

      Don’t dodge the question.

      4) I’ve got a birth certificate from the actuall hospital.

      Big whoop. Anyone can get one of those hospital birth certificates – AND fill it out themselves, without it ever passing through the hands of a medical practitioner.

      5) My wife doesn’t tell people that my home country is anything other than the United States. I have English and Irish ancestors, but we don’t claim Great Britain to be our home country.

      You just did.

      See what we’re dealing with here, with your sort of nonsense?

      No, of course you don’t.

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      @ #68:

      Steady on, Stan. You’ll make his brain explode if you go on with that sort of talk. Wouldn’t want that on your conscience, now, would you?

      :-)

    • ksdb

      Lynn,

      1) The state of Hawaii said they have an original birth certificate on file. If so, then it can be shown. Obama is a public figure. He has no need for privacy. He’s already shown a jpg for what is alleged to be an official abstract of that original certificate, so there should be nothing to hide. Let’s see if the original matches what he’s shown. We shouldn’t settle for anything less than full disclosure.

      2) Michelle said “home country,” which has a rather specific meaning of where one is born and raised. Why say it if neither applies?? Don’t take my word for it.

      http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/home_country

      3) The Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett said that the definition of natural born citizen is extraconstitutional. This is after the 14th amendment, so they recognized that it would not define nor redefine what it means to be a natural born citizen. They went on to cite the definition proposed by Emmerich de Vattel that “all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.” Vattel said the citizenship of a child naturally follows the citizenship of the father. As understood by the founders and not changed by either the law or the Constitution, Obama was a British subject at birth (through Colonies of the United Kingdom), not a natural born citizen. This meaning was reinforced shortly after the ratification of the Constitution in cases such as Shanks v. Dupont, where they acknowledged you could be native born and not be a natural born citizen of the United States.

      You’re also absolutely wrong about Obama’s mother. She married two foreign nationals and took Obama to Indonesia when he was 3 or 4 years old, with no obvious intention of raising him in America. She eventually sent him back to live with her parents in Hawaii, but not as some sort of patriotic plan. What you suggest is plain nonsense and has no bearing on his Constitutional eligibility.

    • STM

      No, I’m serious Doc.

      Check this out. One of my own countrymen explaining the links between the Royal Institute of International Affairs (Chatham House) and the US Council on Foreign Relations (the CFR), and how Obama was actually set up to be the next US president because it’s not actually him running the US, or the American people, but the shadowy black hand of British/US imperialists backed by EU insiders and private businessmen from around the globe who are in cahoots and intent on world domination. The RIIA and the CFR are one and the same organisation, yet one is based in the US, the other in the UK.

      The constitutions of Britain and the US are continually undermined by these people. This is also why Americans should be worried about the Trilateral Commission.

      All the evidence is out there. Unlike the birthers’ issue, this is real.

      And the flag of Hawaii is but one small clue to this.

      I mean, seriously, why would the US even allow an American state to have a Union Jack in its flag unless those running America behind the scenes were in cahoots with the British.

      I mean, it doesn’t take much to put two and three together.

      The answer is always 4.

    • STM

      Also, I guess it IS possible that in light of all this, there might be some little bit of truth to the birthers’ claims.

      I wonder if he was actually marked out from birth for this role, and if so, then, yes, it might all be true.

      I don’t believe so. Problem is, we’ll never find out, will we, unless one of us ends up at Chatham House or the CFR or the Trilateral Commission.

      Perhaps then it would all become clear.

    • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

      “2) Michelle said “home country,” which has a rather specific meaning of where one is born and raised. Why say it if neither applies?? Don’t take my word for it.

      http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/home_country

      Of course, because no one in the history of mankind has ever used a phrase differently than its wiktionary definition.

      You still have not said what you are going to do with this knowledge, ksdb. Man up and save the country from itself

    • STM

      I had an international affair once.

    • STM

      TSee Doc, the truth is, in the great scheme of things, it doesn’t matter whether anything is constitutional or not.

      None of it counts. America is not run according to the constitution of the US, and hasn’t been since the end of the War of 1812.

      Both Britain and the US have been run since then as two different parts of the same entity.

      It’s all done with somoke and mirrors.

    • ksdb

      El Bicho, I’m here to educate. Dave Nalle was trying to clear up a myth about Obama’s signing statement and I’m taking it a few steps further. I have hope that faithers will snap out of their Obama-trances and start to see how he’s duped everyone. The public needs to learn about all the misinformation out there and start demanding full disclosure. Why settle for less??

      Michelle’s comment exposes just how ambiguous the whole Obama nativity myth really is. His Kenyan grandmother calls him a son of the soil. Newspapers in Africa say he is Kenyan-born. One of his friends, Tammy Duckworth said he was born in Indonesia. His mother’s whereabouts at the time of his birth can’t be confirmed. The state of Hawaii uses doublespeak to claim Obama is legit, but without specifically saying his alleged COLB is genuine. Why?? They refuse to authenticate his certificate number despite having statutory and discretionary authority under vital records laws and the state’s sunshine laws. The state of Hawaii has even lied about it’s own disclosure rules to avoid dealing with Obama’s birth questions. There’s strong evidence Obama was adopted by Lolo Soetoro and may have legally retained his adopted surname and Indonesian citizenship into adulthood. The state of Hawaii has procedurally admitted that Obama’s birth records were amended and thus, what he presents via jpg has to have been forged. Then we can get into the natural born citizenship issue which precludes Obama because of his British/Kenyan father. The list goes on and on. Let’s just get all the truth out and not have to guess.

      Being in an Obama-trance with heads in the sand does not serve this country well. It’s time to wake up and quit carrying water for a fraud.

    • STM

      “I have hope that faithers will snap out of their Obama-trances and start to see how he’s duped everyone.”

      But don’t you understand? It’s not him that’s duped everyone.

      No single person could do something like that. If it’s true – then there are other, far more powerful, hands behind it.

      That is a far more believable scenario than Obama and a couple of random Democrats doing this on their own because they know he wasn’t born in Hawaii and are trying to cover it up. It’s simply not possible to pull the wool over the eyes of so many people without it coming to light, unless there are very, very powerful protectors of the secret putting the hard word on people to keep quiet …

      So if what you believe is true, then you need to look much further and much deeper for the answers.

      The truth is out there kdsb … it just isn’t where you’re looking for it.

    • http://thesteadydrip.blogspot.com/ Sam Sewell

      Several of the posters here continue to spread the debunked urban myth that the original AKA Obama real birth certificate has been destroyed and now we must rely on the COLB from questionable origins. AKA Obama’s birth certificate, the real one, is still available if AKA Obama would release it, the courts would order it, or law enforcement investigators request it.

      Can you please show me where the LEGITIMATE Hawaiian birth certificate is? And if it has been produced, why has Obama spent money on attorney fees to keep it from being made public? How can anyone explain why teams of lawyers and tons of money are being spent to hide something that has already been revealed?

      Read this to debunk the latest Obot urban legend – Hawaii has the documents and they’re accessible.

      The Obots can lie, lie, lie and otherwise obfuscate until the cows come home, and it won’t change the fact that Hawaii has the documents and they’re accessible. CNN/US Boss Is An Obama Agent – Hawaii does the avoid/evade dance.

      Here is the law that authorizes any law enforcement agent to have access to AKA Obama’s real birth certificate. Gee, and AKA Obama just pissed off a whole lot of cops.
      Also see.

    • http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ STM

      Sam: “How can anyone explain why teams of lawyers and tons of money are being spent to hide something that has already been revealed?”

      But they’re not, Sam. That’s a birther myth.

    • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

      I bet Dave Nalle will think twice before posting another article on the subject.

    • zingzing

      just be glad all the birthers are completely wrapped up in their fantasies and not doing damage elsewhere.

    • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

      My only question is – where is Pablo?

    • http://www.xanga.com/bastet Lynn Voedisch

      I should have known better than to get involved with anything involving birthers.

      1. Hawaii has asked people to come and compare their duplicates with the real one in the bowels of the building and no one has taken them up on it. Hawaii stands firm on its contention that the certificate is real and every court has backed them up. Who are you to say they are wrong just because you hospital handed you a sheet of paper? You know more than the Supreme Court, which is pretty conservative? I didn’t get a “real” birth certificate, and I still got a passport. So did Obama. Our birth certificates were considered real enough for that federal agency.

      2. Home country is the same as saying home. You’re just playing with semantics here. I feel sorry for you if you have to twist things like this.

      3. Do you know any lawyers? I know immigration lawyers. The precedent is quite clear. Children of American citizens who aren’t going to live in, say, China, are Americans at birth. The children of *immigrants* born on our soil is another matter entirely. Apples and oranges. You’re needlessly obfuscating the matter.
      As for Ms. Dunham’s arrangments for young Barack, the law only considers the mother’s plans for the child *at that time*. They can’t look in a crystal ball, see that the old man is going to abandon the family, leave her in a crisis, and she’ll go off to Indonesia. He was initially and was eventually raised as as American. And all during his stay in Indonesia, she taught him English-language studies early in the morning. So don’t give me any crap about her wanting to turn him into an Indonesian.

      As for Hawaii being some kind of outpost of the U.K., that perhaps is the most laughable thing I’ve heard yet. Is Australia also beholden to the Queen? They don’t think so. These are symbols of the past–just like the Confederate flag is for some southerners. Chew on that for a while.
      And remember how chummy W. was with Tony Blair before you start throwing around accusations about being too close to the British.
      This conversation just is too weird for me. I’m out.
      Lynn

    • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

      Look at it as entertainment, Lynn.

    • Jerry Patterson

      Wow a rational article involving this whole ridiculous issue. The problem is that many of the Tea party people probably won’t take the time to read this as it doesn’t fit in with their simple views. As Bill Maher said, “I’ll show you Obama’s birth certificate when you show me Palin’s high school diploma”.

    • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

      With all due respect, Palin’s high-school diploma is not a prerequisite for becoming a president; Obama’s birth certificate is.

      The teapartiers won’t be impressed.

    • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

      It’s a joke, Roger, not an actual demand for a document.

    • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

      Glenn,

      57% of Republicans believe that President Obama is a Muslim.

      Obama is a Muslim. By Muslim standards, since his father is a Muslim, so is he. I don’t care how many times he sings about Jesus or how many churches he deigns to attend. According to the 1.5 billion Muslims on the planet, your (immigrant) president is a Muslim. An apostate Muslim who disappoints from time to time, perhaps, but a Muslim nonetheless.

    • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

      I was equally ironic, Handy.

    • zingzing

      is muslim now a race? or is it still a religion? does the fact that i’m white make me a christian?

    • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

      zing, if you have trouble with the FACT that Barak Hussein Obama SENIOR is a Muslim, then you are displaying your normal inability to absorb basic facts. No surprise there. Muslims judge the religion of a person by the religion of the father.

      I haven’t mentioned the place of birth of your (immigrant) president, but Dave’s article is just a common garden variety “let’s knock down a straw man” type argument that is so typical of arrogant academics.

      He doesn’t answer the basic question of why Hawaii does not release an authentic long form birth certificate for Obama Jr. He goes after a lot of side bullshit instead.

      And the lot of you fools in the States refuse to look the simple fact in the face – you were snookered by a smooth-talking con-man who has no right to be your chief executive.

      It’s a pleasure to laugh at you all and the stupid arguments you make to hide the fact that you were snookered and are too embarrassed to admit it.

    • Baronius

      Ruvy, why are you mentioning it if it has nothing to do with the conversation?

    • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

      Mentioning what, Baronius? Glenn is trying to make Republicans look stupid by claiming they believe a fact. In the eyes of 1.5 billion Muslims, Obama Jr. is a Muslim because Obama Sr. is. I’m just ramming that fact down your deluded throats.

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      In the eyes of 1.5 billion Muslims, Obama Jr. is a Muslim because Obama Sr. is.

      Fair enough point, Ruvy. And that’s actually a very effective refutation of one of the claims of the Obama-Is-A-Foreigner/Muslim/Manchurian Candidate/Antichrist/Alien/Zombie/Raiders Fan brigade.

      One of the more absurd claims going around during the campaign, IIRC, was, “Obama’s a Muslim! Look, here’s this transcript of an interview with one of his Dad’s friends where he confirms it!”

    • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

      One of the more absurd claims going around during the campaign, IIRC, was, “Obama’s a Muslim! Look, here’s this transcript of an interview with one of his Dad’s friends where he confirms it!”

      Bowing to the “king” of “Saudi” Arabia proved what faith he actually follows. His constant references to the Qur’an similarly prove where his lying heart is. We don’t need some dumb dhimmi interview at all. The man speaks for himself most effectively. He is a Jew-hater, and he is a Muslim, both.

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      Bowing to the “king” of “Saudi” Arabia proved what faith he actually follows.

      I gave alms to a monk in Thailand and rang a gong at a temple in Burma last November. I guess that makes me a Buddhist.

    • STM

      I danced with four naked nymphs in a forest an hour before sunrise, but does that make me a nymph??

    • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

      @ comments 97 & 98.

      Both of you write like fools. Stan if all you did was dance with four naked nymphs before sunrise, you are an absolute fool. You coulda had far more than an “international affair”.

      DD, the American president is obliged NOT to bow to a foreign monarch. Doing so, especially in public, indicates fealty. By doing so, Obama indicated that he is bowing to the ruler of the Muslims – indicating that he viewed himself as one.

      You can give alms and ring a Bhuddist’s gong all you want. You do not have a responsibility to the American public.

      Do you seriously think you can dance around your own dhimmitude, the two of you?

    • STM

      It was on a yoga survival camp.

    • STM

      “With all due respect, Palin’s high-school diploma is not a prerequisite for becoming a president”

      It is if she doesn’t have one.

    • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

      It was on a yoga survival camp.

      What a limp excuse, Stan…. ;o)

    • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

      Palin has a university diploma, Stan. It ain’t as prestigious as Obama’s, but she at least worked for the damned thing, and didn’t get into school on a free pass on her race or religion. And unlike Obama, she has done honest work for a living. She’s a whole lot more like you than you care to admit.

      And she has a birth certificate that she can produce without bullshitting around court-rooms. Obama doesn’t. That qualifies her to be president.

      Hell, based on that, even I’m more qualified to be president that that scum, Obama.

      Thieves hide their past. Honest people don’t.

      Didn’t they teach you anything at that newspaper you work for, Stan?

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      DD, the American president is obliged NOT to bow to a foreign monarch. Doing so, especially in public, indicates fealty. By doing so, Obama indicated that he is bowing to the ruler of the Muslims – indicating that he viewed himself as one.

      There are so many illogical leaps and unfounded assumptions in this soap-opera parody of international relations that it’s hard to know where to start or, indeed, whether to bother. Stan, it’s daylight where you are. Perhaps you’d like to oblige, if you feel so inclined.

    • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

      DD, the American president is obliged NOT to bow to a foreign monarch. Doing so, especially in public, indicates fealty. By doing so, Obama indicated that he is bowing to the ruler of the Muslims – indicating that he viewed himself as one.

      There are so many illogical leaps and unfounded assumptions in this soap-opera parody of international relations that it’s hard to know where to start or, indeed, whether to bother.

      Whether you bother is not my problem, DD. Get your beauty sleep, if that is what you presently require. But if the president of a country publicly bows to a king, he is showing fealty to that king. Assuming he is not showing fealty, one has to work on the next logical reason. The “king” in Mecca and Medina is the closest thing Muslims have to a Khalif. So, bowing to the bastard is showing that the bower is a Muslim respecting his religious master.

      Obviously, you have trouble with this. It highlights another unpleasant fact about the faker in the White House. He is a Muslim, in spite of all he says to the contrary.

    • STM

      My understanding is that there are no rules preventing an American president following protocol and if that requires a mini bow, or a slight bend of the waist and that is what is suggested by advisers schooled in such things, then so be it.

      Luckily, nowhere in the constitution does it say a US president shouldn’t bow or bend slightly, so at least the rabid constitutionalist nuts aren’t swanning about carrying on about how it’s “unconstitutional”.

      It seems to be something that some Americans believe, purely on the basis of that American coonskin-cap thought process, or even that old British-empire style of thinking: “Hey, we’re Americans! We don’t bow to no one, period!”.

      (” ’cause we gonna kick your ass anytime we like, git it??”)

      The truth is, for too long Americans (sorry for generalising) have been ignorant of other people’s cultural traditions (we know how this works Doc because we have come from a tradition that also used to behave that way) – and they have viewed these kinds of meetings with foreign dignitaries only through the prism of their own cultural experience (which, you know, CAN be a bit limited at times).

      In the past, they’ve almost set off international incidents as a result, while saying: “Hey, what’d we do?? Ah didn’t know ah couldn’t touch the Kee-ing of Taaaa-land on the hee-ed. I was jes givin’ him a nahce Texan-style free-endly pat. Geez, and we really needed that airbase!”

      I believe the State Department coaches diplomats and politicians, or at least gives suggestions and also suggests that such suggestions are followed, in how to respond to the cultural traditions of other countries when they are interacting for the common good.

      And Obama isn’t the first US president to give a little mini-bow to a monarch.

      That failure among Americans generally to understand other cultures also resulted during the occupation of Iraq, in which the US-led coalition had initially been greeted as the welcome liberator, going really pear-shaped about the time Abu Ghraib hit the headlines.

    • zingzing

      i take my shoes off in a house where they take their shoes off. obama was polite where he went. end of story, ruvy. don’t be ridiculous.

    • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

      “ruvy. don’t be ridiculous.”

      you’d have better results telling water not to be wet

    • zingzing

      wait, ruvy. obama bowed to the japanese emperor… is he buddhist as well. is his religious master akihito? does that not fit into your script?

    • zingzing

      i like yelling at water, el b. sometimes, it listens to me. “go back! aww, where you going? come here! good god, you smell like someone has an infection. get the hell out of here! i was just kidding! we cool? come ‘ere, you…”

    • STM

      Yeah, zing … the whole argument is bizarre.

      And spurious.

    • Jordan Richardson

      she has done honest work for a living. She’s a whole lot more like you than you care to admit.

      Two questions, apply them where you wish:

      1. What?

      2. Sarah Palin is like Stan? Is Stan a wealthy jackass attempting to appeal to ‘common people’ by hanging out with tea partiers prior to dropping tens of thousands on clothes and trotting out a daughter for abstinence commercials?

      Okay, so that was three questions.

      And if you can tell what religion/race/political affiliation a person is by how they behave in polite company, I’m totally fucked.

    • Jordan Richardson

      Hell, based on that, even I’m more qualified to be president that that scum, Obama.

      And what would be your platform? Look at me, I’m cranky and have shitty, paranoid ideas?

      Nobody cares about qualifications when you’re an asshole.

    • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

      This is a “mini-bow”, Stan? Yeah, tell me more.

    • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

      Nobody cares about qualifications when you’re an asshole.

      That’s why nobody discusses you becoming president, Jordan – plus you’re a Canadian. You definitely do not qualify.

    • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

      …Sarah Palin is like Stan? Is Stan a wealthy jackass attempting to appeal to ‘common people’ by hanging out with tea partiers prior to dropping tens of thousands on clothes and trotting out a daughter for abstinence commercials?

      Before she got rich after resigning her post as Governor, before becoming a mayor, she was a working mom running to PTA meetings. She was, and still is, an average working class woman – which is why so many people look down their snooty arrogant noses at her. And why I don’t.

    • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

      Looks like you can’t answer me, Stan – or haven’t got the guts to. No surprise there either.

    • STM

      So he bowed, Ruve, big fucking deal. He’s not the first American president, contrary to popular belief, to bow in front of a monarch. Was the Saudi bloke sitting down? That might actually explain it.

      I read some of the posts from Americans on that video thread about how terrible it all was. Seriously, you guys need to get over yourselves.

      Part of your problem here, even if you don’t want to hear it, is that everyone else in the world that’s had to deal with you inevitably thinks you’re a pack of arrogant, ignorant arseholes, even when they’ve started out NOT wanting to believe that.

      If following the same protocol that applies to every other country on earth (except Israel, where they just do whatever the fuck they like, such as forging Australian passports so Mossad can do its business) is a problem, no American should ever visit another country or send ambassadors.

      I don’t think most Americans fully realise how much people outside the English-speaking world dislike them.

      It’s not because they’re bad people, but it’s this perception that the rules that apply to everyone else don’t apply to Americans, because they view the world ONLY through their own cultural prism.

      I realise I am generalising, and having been on the recieving end of endless and beautiful American hospitality many times, I can forgive you your foibles even if I’m still very aware of them and how much they grate – even on me, a lover of Americans.

      Seriously, here’s a message to certain sections of the American community: just get off the fucking high horse and have a really good look at yourselves and wake up to yourselves.

      If you wonder why a lot of people don’t like Americans, the answer is simple: if you don’t want to be perceived as the big bully, stop behaving like one.

      If you don’t care, then it’ll be your downfall.

      You’re either part of this world, or you think you’re running it and the rules don’t apply.

      It can’t be both.

    • STM

      There Ruve, did that answer yer question??

    • STM

      Honestly, I think it’s great the US has a president who is fully cognisant of the need to be polite to foreign dignitaries – so much depends on it – and to follow the same protocols that everyone else follows.

      And like I say, he’s not the first to understand the need to do that.

    • Ruvy

      So he bowed, Ruve, big fucking deal. He’s not the first American president, contrary to popular belief, to bow in front of a monarch.

      But he was the first one to do it on You Tube, and the Arab was standing, not sitting.

      In either event, he made it seem as if either he was pledging fealty to this scum, or recognizing him as his religious leader. I would assume the second to be true – he learned how to honor religious leaders in Indonesia.

      As for the rest of your comments calling the Americans arrogant, they’re spot on. Fits ‘em to a “t” – arrogant imperialist bullies.

    • STM

      Which is why it’s good to have a US president who understands that he needs to do the same things any other leader on this planet does … be polite and follow protocol.

      And like I say, if that means bending at the waist (looked to me like he was a lot taller than the arab), who gives a rat’s??

      It’s not that important. I don’t buy any of this nonsense about him being a muslim, either.

      Clearly, he’s not.

    • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

      This thread is becoming a Child’s Garden of silly, irrational theories/opinions, and of the futility of attempting to argue against them sensibly.

      We just get dragged down into the same ludicrous swamp the conspiracy theorists are already wallowing in.

    • ksdb

      Lynn, you’re just making stuff up now. I’m embarrassed for you.

      1) If you want to see what a real, long-form certificate looks like.

      No court has affirmed the alleged COLB to be real. It’s never been presented in a court of law.

      Also, Obama’s alleged COLB is dated June 6, 2007. Is that when you think Obama got his first passport?? If not, what document did he use to obtain one?? It sure wasn’t the jpg at his Web site.

      2) “Home country” means the country where you were born. It means what it means. You’re the one playing semantics by trying to claim it means something else.

      3) Lynn, you’re rambling about irrelevant nonsense now. Obama father wasn’t an immigrant. He had no plan to live in American and didn’t. Had his relationship with SAD endured, Obama would have moved to Kenya. For all intents and purposes, she would have planned to follow her husband to Kenya. Nevertheless, she found another foreign national to marry after divorcing Barak Sr., so there was no evidence in either case of any ‘plan’ to raise Barry Soetoro in the United States. You’re simply making a baseless, wreckless and false assumption.

      And sorry for your lack of comprehension, but I never said Hawaii was a British colony. I was talking about Kenya, which in 1961, was still a protectorate or colony of Great Britain. Under the British Nationality Act of 1948, the children of citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonoies (such as Barak Sr.’s child) were automatically considered to be British citizens. Obama would have been a British citizen at birth under this law. He admits this at this Fight the Smears Web site. As such, he cannot be a natural born citizen of the United States … period.

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      No court has affirmed the alleged COLB to be real. It’s never been presented in a court of law.

      Because it’s only fringe people like you who think it needs to be. An apparently legitimate COLB, which by law is as valid a proof of citizenship as a long-form birth certificate until shown to be otherwise – which it hasn’t been. Once again, you’re trying to shift the burden of proof.

      By that standard, you have still failed to prove your US citizenship.

      Also, Obama’s alleged COLB is dated June 6, 2007. Is that when you think Obama got his first passport??

      No, it’s when he requested a copy of his birth record from the Hawaiian registry of births. Stop playing us for fools.

      If not, what document did he use to obtain one??

      Perhaps he hypnotised the US Passport Agency employee who processed his application. Amazing how he (a) just happened to know exactly who that employee would be, and (b) possesses the astounding ability to hypnotise people through the mail.

      there was no evidence in either case of any ‘plan’ to raise Barry Soetoro in the United States

      As Lynn says, this is irrelevant. Where in law does it say there has to be an intent to raise a child in the US?

      Obama would have been a British citizen at birth under this law. He admits this at this Fight the Smears Web site. As such, he cannot be a natural born citizen of the United States … period.

      Show me the law which states that a natural born citizen cannot have dual citizenship.

      Your criteria, if true, invalidate the legitimacy of at least four US presidents besides Obama.

    • ksdb

      dreadful, it’s not and has never been an ‘apparently valid’ COLB. The number on it was redacted and it show signs of manipulation, both of which are obvious red flags to reasonable people. Evidently such manipulation is not a problem for gullible Obama-cult faithers, who meltdown at any hint of criticism of their messiah, such as your ridiculous deflections about hypnotizing people. Sorry, but you’re just acting out and dodging the question because you know you can’t defend Obama’s lack of credentials. Try presenting yourself as rational. Also, it was Lynn’s argument that Obama’s mama planned to raise him in America, as if that would make someone a natural born citizen. You’re not even following the arguments. I didn’t say Obama was a dual citizen. I said that being a British citizen at birth (to a foreign national who wasn’t a permanent U.S. resident or immigrant) prevented him from being a natural born citizen. We don’t know yet whether he officially had U.S. citizenship at birth. Overall, Obama has one citizenship for each of four different continents, but none is natural born citizenship for the United States.

    • http://www.fontcraft.com Dave Nalle

      Regarding the Obama bowing incident, for what it’s worth, President Sarkozy of France has now declared that he thinks Obama is “insane” so how’s that for making foreign leaders like us better than GWB?

      Dave

    • STM

      Doc: “Your criteria, if true, invalidate the legitimacy of at least four US presidents besides Obama”.

      None of whom were uppity “Africans”.

      I bet kdsb can’t name the others … including one very well known one.

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      it’s not and has never been an ‘apparently valid’ COLB.

      It is to everyone’s satisfaction except people like you who’ve already made their minds up and won’t be swayed by trifles like evidence.

      The number on it was redacted

      So what?

      and it show signs of manipulation

      Nope. Sorry.

      Evidently such manipulation is not a problem for gullible Obama-cult faithers, who meltdown at any hint of criticism of their messiah, such as your ridiculous deflections about hypnotizing people.

      I didn’t vote for Obama neither am I a ‘cultist’. He’s hardly my ‘messiah’. In fact I’m not even American (and I have the birth certificate to prove it). I do, however, have an excellent bullshit detector and a critical thinking facility, which you seem to lack.

      Sorry

      Apology accepted.

      you’re just acting out and dodging the question because you know you can’t defend Obama’s lack of credentials.

      For the nth time, you’re the one making the extraordinary claim. I don’t have to defend anything.

      being a British citizen at birth (to a foreign national who wasn’t a permanent U.S. resident or immigrant) prevented him from being a natural born citizen.

      Only according to one obscure (and convenient for you) interpretation of the term, which isn’t supported by law.

    • zingzing

      dave, you have to consider the source of your quote there… even the french find that guy repugnant.

    • pablo

      Here is an archive dot org document, archived directly from “The Standard” one of the main newspapers from Kenya dated 1974, with I might add -AP clearly marked on the story. The title of the story is “Kenyan-born Obama all set for US Senate, as well as the opening sentence. As I said this links directly to archive.org and is clearly linked through the Kenyan paper’s website and has been archived.

      Kenyan-born Obama all set for US Senate

    • http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ STM

      Yeah, but you know, Pab, newspapers in Nairobi don’t have the same standard of journalism as The Times.

      They made a mistake and retracted it.

    • prsmith

      Obummer’s father was a Kenyan national and a British subject making Barry a British subject as well. The ‘natural born citizen’ clause requires citizens born on the soil of parentS who are citizenS (plural).

    • http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ STM

      I am not in America, but I possibly suffer the same problem as Obama … I can’t get my original birth certificate because it is held somewhere in an archive deep in the bowels of a government building.

      What I get is known as an “extract”. It is, like Obama’s, a printout of information held digitally.

      This is what everyone now gets.

      I recently had to get one for my daughter, and have picked one up for my son in the past, because birth certificates get put away and no one can find them among all the boxes of stuff.

      What we got, issued by the State of New South Wales, very much like Obama’s State of Hawaii document, was an extract with an official stamp on it.

      They were only provided after producing a whole load of documentary evidence.

      This is now standard practise the world over.

      Why are we even arguing with moonbats?

      Oh, I know … because it’s hours of fun.

      And Dave, don’t punt up anything the French say and present it as being anything close to factual.

      If Sarkozy thinks Obama is insane, that’s his opinion, and one I wouldn’t put great store in.

    • ksdb

      dreadful, I’ve supported my claims. You’ve sort of tried to spin and deflect, but as far as you providing a substantitve counter argument … not so much.

      The signs of manipulation are still on the scans of the alleged COLB provided by Obama staffer, Tommy Vietor. It has Photoshop tags embedded, so the images can’t be trusted to be legitimate, especially when the issuing agency refuses to affirm it as genuine. It doesn’t matter what some self-appointed Photoshop yokel tries to justify about sets of dots and anti-aliasing. The scanned jpg is not reliable … period. Besides, the dots and anti-aliasing don’t prove the alleged COLB is genuine. The discovery of a seal through edge detection is consistent with the idea that the Obama COLB was produced by scanning and layering multiple documents or images. Other known genuine COLBs don’t require this kind of manipulation to make those elements visible.

      Second, there’s nothing particularly extraordinary about what I’ve claimed other than the extraoridinary ways that Obama faith cultists tried to deflect and dodge a few reasonable questions. We’re at post #135 and not one Obama-pologist has been able to deal with the five points I brought up in post #18. Not one. Thus, they stand.

      The interpretation I gave of the natural born citizen is not obscure. It was known to the founders who used Vattel’s “Law Of Nations” as a reference prior to the writing of the Constitution and it is affirmed in six Supreme Court rulings. Statuory law does not define natural born citizen because it is part of the common law preceding our Constitution. This is what the Supreme Court told us. No law can redefine the term since it is already in the Constitution. It would require a Constitutional amendment of which there is none at this point.

    • pablo

      STM,

      I guess you missed the AP listing on the article in question. I assume that you do know what AP is don’t you STM?

    • http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ STM

      PRsmith … I’d check that out more closely if I were you.

    • http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ STM

      No Pablo, of course I don’t know what AP is … I’ve only been a working journalist for 38 years.

      I’ve seen a retraction of that article.

    • Ruvy

      Paul,

      Stan didn’t miss nothin’. He doesn’t want (you) to believe the story, so he knocks its credibility. The “I believe Obama” crowd is never going to admit that the little bastard from Chicago is a fraud.

      Arguing over this shit is a waste of time, now. The little dictator is tightening his hold on America and has all the right people bought up and silenced.

    • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

      Re Dave’s #127 about Sarkozy and Obama:

      The source for this “news item” seems to be a genuinely wacky article in something called The EU Times. This alleged “secret report” leaked by the Kremlin [!] sounds like something out of a supermarket tabloid.

      Sarkozy has shown every indication of being either desperately envious of Obama’s celebrity/popularity or in deep puppy love with him. But I will be surprised if this turns out to be any kind of actual story.

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      newspapers in Nairobi don’t have the same standard of journalism as The Times.

      Funny you should mention that, Stan. Because apparently, the Kenyan Registry of Births doesn’t have the same standard of confidentiality as the State of Hawaii either. So, if Obama was indeed born in Kenya, it should be an easy enough matter to get a copy of his Kenyan birth certificate.

      So come on, kdsb and crew. Let’s see it.

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      kdsb: We’re at post #135 and not one Obama-pologist has been able to deal with the five points I brought up in post #18.

      Pretending they haven’t been dealt with when it’s written out for all to see is more than pathetic.

    • http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ STM

      It’s important to understand that for the purposes of US law, because of the constantly challenged constitutional impasse on exactly what or who constitutes a natural-born citizen, the law of the United States comes up trumps every time: a natural-born citizen is also held to be a person acquiring US citizenship by blood, or jus sanguinis.

      This is the current law (well documented by the way) regarding US citizenship both jus soli (right of “soil”) and jus sanguinis (right by blood) as it covers Obama even if he wasn’t born in Hawaii, (which he was):

      Those born between December 24, 1952, and November 14, 1986, are US citizens AT BIRTH (and therefore regarded as natural born) if all of the following are true:

      One (1) of the person’s parents was a US citizen when the person in question was born;

      The citizen parent lived at least 10 years in the United States before the child’s birth;

      A minimum of 5 of these 10 years in the United States were after the citizen parent’s 14th birthday.

      See, what people think and what the law actually says are two different things.

      This is why the whole argument is a complete pack of bollocks and based on complete ignorance.

      Obama could have been born on Mars, but he’d still be regarded as a natural-born citizen according to the law.

      He has, according to the law of United States, been a citizen since birth. That is what the law says, and no wishful thinking on the part of anyone who doesn’t believe his presidency is legitimate will change that fact.

      For those who don’t realise this, the law applies as it existed at the time, not to how it existed prior to his birth or changes made since his birth.

      Worst of all, I can’t believe an Australian has to be explaining the nuances of the laws of the United States to Americans who appear not to have bothered researching them.

    • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

      Conspiracy theories never seem to get proven. The evidence stays just tantalizingly fuzzy enough to keep nutty and/or bored people playing the game.

      It’s not really about proof. The adolescent feeling that Those In Charge know something we don’t and are keeping it from us, and have nearly omnipotent powers to do so, is a powerful one that apparently runs deep in the culture.

      But…
      We’ll never know who Jack the Ripper was.

      And though there are lots of odd things in Lee Harvey Oswald’s life, there’s still not one bit of actual evidence he didn’t act alone.

      15-16 years ago the still-young Internet was abuzz with ridiculous but compelling stories about Bill and Hillary Clinton smuggling drugs and murdering their friends.

      Now we have all these very persistent people who are sure they have disproved Barack Obama’s eligibility to be president.

      The fact that courts and state governments and legitimate journalists roll their eyes at these claims only seems to make them stronger — even though there is no proof at all, just a constant echo of doubt. [“He’s not legitimate – he couldn’t possibly be! Gotta be a Muslim! A radical! A commie! A sleeper Hamas agent!”]

      And it just so happens that he’s a liberal and he’s black, and all the conspiracy buffs just happen to oppose his political views and policies [and frequently make up unprovable, ridiculous assertions about him — see Orly Taitz; well, don’t if you value your sanity].

      And their answer is always, always, “But I proved it — look!”

      But, no. You haven’t, you won’t you can’t. Still, knock yourselves out.

    • ksdb

      I’m not sure which is more dreadful, the lack of substantive debate or that last sentence by DD. What???

    • ksdb

      stm, you’ve done an extremely poor job at explaining what you think makes Obama a natural born citizen. Any good faither will tell you that it’s jus soli that counts, not jus sanguinis, because of the 14th amendment. In the Obama-cultists’ feeble minds, they believe ‘native-born’ = natural born.

      Also, you’ve missed the critical part of the statutue that you quoted. If Obama was born in Kenya, his mother was not old enough to have lived for five years in the United States after age 14 in order to pass her citizenship to her child. IOW, he’s not a U.S. citizen much less a natural born citizen in that case. Sad, but another faither argument goes down in flames and with his own evidence.

    • http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ STM

      You couldn’t be a complete imbecile could you? Seriously?

      I’ve explained it the only way it needs to be explained: according to the law of the United States as it applies to those deemed to be eligible for citizenship between 1952 and 1984, Obama is regarded AT LAW as a natural-born citizen jus sanguinis. That is the law of the US, period.

      There is no other argument that counts because it means diddly squat. Everyone respects your right to have a contrary opinion in regard to this, but so far none of those contrary opinions are holding up at law, as some recent court judgments have indicated.

      Just because a bunch of hard-line constututionalist fundamentalists don’t or won’t believe it is irrelavent; your misguided belief doesn’t circumvent the law of your own country as it applies right now.

      If in doubt, please call up the US government mob that deals in this stuff and they’ll tell you the same as I’ve indicated above.

      Jus solis is NOT the key issue. The courts have ruled in the past that just being born in the US might not mean you are natural-born and therefore eligible to become POTUS.

      It’s a nonsense and it’s wrong.

      And stop calling me a f.cking faither. I’m not even American … I couldn’t give a rat’s one way or the other as I’m happy living in my paradise down here on the edge of the South Pacific.

      I am, however, a person who believes that if you are presenting an opinion that goes contrary to rational belief, it’s up to you to produce the evidence, not me.

    • ksdb

      … and a new ‘birther’ joins the Michelle Obama in declaring Kenya to be Obama’s home country:

      “If America was living in a situation where they feared ethnicity and did not see itself as a multiparty state or nation, how could a young man born here in Kenya, who is not even a native American, become the President of America?”

      Source: http://www.bunge.go.ke/parliament/downloads/tenth_forth_sess/Hansard/RDRAFT25.03P.pdf

      Thank you, Mr. James Orengo, Kenyan Minister of Lands.

    • ksdb

      stm, you misread the law. Just admit you were wrong. Man up.

      Here’s what you wrote:

      “The citizen parent lived at least 10 years in the United States before the child’s birth; A minimum of 5 of these 10 years in the United States were after the citizen parent’s 14th birthday.”

      Obama’s mama was born Nov. 29, 1942. She would have turned 14 on Nov. 29, 1956. To get that minimum of five years after her 14th birthday, Obama would have had to be born on or AFTER Nov. 29, 1961. He was born Aug. 4, therefore his mother was too young to pass on U.S. citizenship if he was born outside the United States. He would not have been a U.S. citizen at birth, and certainly not a natural born citizen. You proved it, STM. Take a bow.

    • http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ STM

      Maybe you need to go back to the USCIS and get a check on what constitutes a year for the purposes of their records on this issue. Do it personally and ask them.

      She turned 19 in 1961, the year of his birth.

      You can’t win this argument because you are: wrong, wrong, wrong, on every account.

      The main one being that he was born in Hawaii, not Kenya or Jupiter.

      That is why people will see you as some poor bugger whose life is tied up in trying to prove a consipiracy theory that does not exist.

      You’ve got more chance of proving the moon landings didn’t happen than Obama not being eligible for the presidency.

      And the truth is, no one really gives a rat’s except a few birthers.

    • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

      wow, is this dance still going on?

    • http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ STM

      But you do understand how this works, right? You do realise it’s not just about counting birthdays don’t you? Count between each birthday to get the number of years, starting at 0. Now do the maths again. If she turned 14 in 1956, between 1956 and 1957 is one year; 57 to 58 is two years; 58-59 is three years; 59-60 is four years; 60-61 is five years. 61-62 is six years.

    • ksdb

      stm, man up. I did the math for you. Obama’s mama was too young when he was born to pass on U.S. citizenship. It doesn’t say ‘as long as the mother eventually turns 19 after the baby is born.’ You say you’re not a faither, yet you’re acting like one by coming up with a ridiculous comment to avoid admitting you were wrong.

      If Obama was born in Hawaii, then he’s simply a 14th amendment citizen, but not a natural born citizen, which requires being born to citizen parents. Historian David Ramsay wrote in 1789 (the same year the U.S. Constitution was ratified) that “Citizenship is the inheritance of the children of those who have taken a part in the late revolution, but this is confined exclusively to children of those who themselves were citizens.” If you were the child of a British subject (like Obama), then you were considered to be a natural born subject, not a natural born citizen. Obama’s papa needed to be a citizen in order for Obama to be born in the United States and be a natural born citizen. This same definition has been affirmed by the United States Supreme Court.

    • http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ STM

      kdsb … I’ve done the maths for you, exactly how it’s done.

      Like I say, it’s not about counting birthdays.

      If got no excuse, but don’t you have anything better to do?

      You know, like getting a life?

    • http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ STM

      EB: “wow, is this dance still going on?”

      Hours of fun in here …

    • http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ STM

      ksdb: “If you were the child of a British subject (like Obama), then you were considered to be a natural born subject, not a natural born citizen. Obama’s papa needed to be a citizen in order for Obama to be born in the United States and be a natural born citizen.

      Well, yes, in, what 1789?

      I think you’ll find it’s changed a tad. Please, try doing ALL the research, instead of making stuff up as you go along.

      He was born in the US to an American citizen. He’s natural-born and eligible for the presidency.

      Perhaps instead of arguing on websites with people who’ll never be convinced and whose main goal is having some sport with conspiracy theorists, why not begin your own court action in an attempt to have this nailed down once and for all?

      The truth is out there. You only need to mortgage the house to find it, one way or the other.

      I don’t know you or your background, obviously, but the courts have a habit of dismissing these kinds of things based on the inadequate standing on the plaintiff, so it’s a good idea to have a backer of note who can make the challenge based on what the court might think is a legitimate basis.

      Perhaps you could argue that a constitutional point of law is a legitimate basis.

      It’d be far more profitable than arguing with an Australian who simply finds the whole premise hilarious – but interesting -and who thinks the constitution was written for a very different world 200 years ago by a bunch of clever, well-meaning old white farts and now needs a bit more tweaking so that it can enter the 21st century as a document that can remain relevent.

    • http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ STM

      And finally, because I have to bugger off now, I don’t make that suggestion out of any disrespect, ksdb … even though HAVE been winding you up a bit.

      I’m a great believer in the democracy of free and frank exchange here and respect everyone’s right to have an opinion contrary to mine, even if I don’t agree with it.

      I just think that arguing about this on websites ultimately becomes counter-productive and the best way to solve the issue once and for all might be through the courts in the US.

      Problem is, I think you or some of your mates might run into the same problems as others … that it’ll be thrown out and you’ll end up having to stump up for the kind of legal costs that make such moves fraught and cost-prohibitive.

      But until someone does, this threatens to go on for another two centuries.

      Cheers.

    • ksdb

      stm, nothing has ‘changed a tad.’ The definition of natural born citizen was not changed by the 14th amendment and it’s not changed by statutory law. The Supreme Court affirmed this.

      And you’re relying on an unproven statement. We don’t know yet where Obama was born. You presume he was born in the United States, but there is no reliable documentary proof showing this. Even if he was, it likely doesn’t matter because a statutory citizen is not the same as a natural born citizen. This too, has been recognized by the Supreme Court.

    • STM

      Mate, seriously, if US lawmakers thought he wasn’t eligible to be president of the United States, knowing the drama that would cause because of folks like you and your mates, do you think the Democrats – or Congress, or the judiciary – would have been complicit in this and stupid enough to just sail along and let him run for office without kicking up an almighty stink??

      Also, go and ask a consttutional lawyer for legal advice about his birthright through his mother. Do you think that if people weren’t certain about this, they’d let him run for president. Seriously? That kind of conspiracy simply can’t be covered up. It would have to involve way too many people.

      Here is a real-life scenario I’d like you to consider: I have two friends, both surfers, both US citizens. One was born to Australian parents living in the US, and has right of citizenship (and now has dual citizenship, which is allowed by the US with certain countries) but has spent nearly all his life in Australia after moving baxk here as a child and has only ever gone back to the US briefly, mostly for holidays and for a short stint of work. He has no desire to live in the US, but enjoys the occasional visit.

      The other is an American citizen by blood; he was born in Australia to US citizen parents (only one of whom was actually born in the US) but returned to the US as a child. He now lives in Australia, having decided to re-emigrate, if you like, as an adult 30-odd years down the track and take advantage of his other birthright.

      Which one of those two would you say is most eligible to be president of the US … the Aussie born in the US, and who has the right jus soli but has spent most of his life Down Under, or the American born in Australia with citizenship jus sanguinis who spent most of his life in the US?

      Forget for a moment that both are also Australian citizens and just look at this as a scenario without that. Under your reasoning, my Aussie mate born in the US is the one who would qualify, when clearly he knows next to nothing about America and qualifies mostly to be a Prime Minister of Australia (if he could be bothered, which he isn’t).

      Clearly, the one born to American parents in Australia, and who lived in the US most of his life, would be the obvious choice to anyone with half a brain. Everything about his screams American. Literally, sometimes.

      This is where all this stuff gets really wobbly and quite bizarre.

      Obama to me seems pretty damn American. But the one thing I suspect a lot of people don’t like (not saying that’s you) is that he’s not white. He’s that uppity left-wing nigger in the White House who 20 years ago would have been polishing the crockery.

      I don’t believe in the “post-racial America”. It might exist on one level, but it’s a big country with a lot of different, polarising viewpoints.

      Like I say, if you don’t believe in what’s going on, challenge it in court, or if you feel your standing won’t count as a plaintiff, find someone whose will.

      You’ll get your answer one way or the other.

      But arguing endlessly about it on websites isn’t going to decide anything. (It DOES get tedious, too … )

      I reckon we’d have found out everything there is to find out by now, and we haven’t.

      Which is why I don’t believe there is a case to answer.

      I prefer tp believe the evidence, which indicates he WAS born in Hawaii, has the right of citizenship through his mother, and is therefore eligible for the office of POTUS.

      *no further correspondence will be entered in to.

    • ksdb

      “Mate, seriously, if US lawmakers thought he wasn’t eligible to be president of the United States, knowing the drama that would cause because of folks like you and your mates, do you think the Democrats – or Congress, or the judiciary – would have been complicit in this and stupid enough to just sail along and let him run for office without kicking up an almighty stink??”

      We’re talking about politicians. Honesty and integrity are not their trademarks. Either they look the other way or try to confuse the issue to equivocate that native-born (yet unproven) = natural-born and the dopey Obama-cult laps it up. This isn’t an excuse to turn the other way while the Kenyan wipes his backside with the U.S. Constitution.

      As for your examples, the answer is neither. Born to citizens in the country is what it takes to be a natural born citizen. The Constitution also requires being age 35 and a 14-year resident of the United States. It says what it says. I don’t have to mull over gray areas and guess which is more like. Either these friends are NBCs or not.

      “Obama to me seems pretty damn American. But the one thing I suspect a lot of people don’t like (not saying that’s you) is that he’s not white. He’s that uppity left-wing [edited] in the White House who 20 years ago would have been polishing the crockery.”

      There we go … the lazy race card finally gets thrown. The only thing that makes Obama American is the white part of his family. That his father happens to be Kenyan wouldn’t be any different than if his father was a German, Irish or Swedish, Australian, etc. If that father was not a U.S. citizen before the child is born, the child is not a natural born citizen. Race is irrelevant. We have no proof he was born in Hawaii and if he was, his claim to U.S. citizenship is 14th amendment (jus soli), not an imaginary birthright through his mother unless he was born out of wedlock. He is not eligible to be POTUS. Maybe you’d have better luck arguing Australian politics … or something you actually have some knowledge about.

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      We’re talking about politicians.

      Judges are not politicians.

      This isn’t an excuse to turn the other way while the Kenyan wipes his backside with the U.S. Constitution.

      Then (and I believe this is approximately the 95th time you’ve been asked this question) what are you doing about it besides whining on internet discussion boards?

    • zingzing

      is there a kenyan birth certificate? and he’s kenyan because his dad is kenyan? but wait, his mom’s not kenyan. so even if he was born in kenya to a kenyan father, his mother is an american. so… is he even kenyan? WHO WILL CLAIM OBAMA?!

    • zingzing

      “what are you doing about it besides whining on internet discussion boards?”

      exactly. take him to court OR (and this is the cheaper option) oppose him based on his policies, not your fantasies, and get him voted out of office. litigation and voting–it’s the american way, for better or for worse.

    • doug m

      Ksdb continues to reveal his ignorance. A real trademark of a politician is obtaining power, but k would have us believe Hilary Clinton and John McCain, two people that wanted to be President as bad as anyone, would just accept getting beat by someone ineligible. How laughable.

      I agree with others who raised the issue. File a lawsuit if you so certain of your position. Otherwise, you are wasting everyone’s time

    • ksdb

      doug, Obama didn’t reveal his fraudulent COLB until AFTER Hillary conceded the primary race. IOW, it was too late for her to do anything about it else she would have been called racist (like Obama did to her husband) and she would have been accused of sour grapes. McCain was already the beneficiary of a senate resolution declaring him to be a natural born citizen despite being born in the Panama Canal Zone. He couldn’t raise a fuss without jeopardizing his own eligibility. Sorry, but your argument is strawman with no legs.

    • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com roger nowosielski

      Truth be told, I would shoot ksdb on sight if the opportunity presented itself. Or beat him to a pulp, and gladly do my time.

      Who gives a fuck???

    • doug m

      A concession is not binding. Ask Al Gore and other politicians who discover a race is very close. Her delegates still belonged to her and she could say she was concerned about Republicans raising the issue.

      If there was a Senate resolution saying McCain was eligible, there was nothing to jepordize, so you are wrong again.

      Apparently you will not be filing a lawsuit, so you are just a blowhard and a coward who doesn’t believe what he is saying. Stop wasting bandwith

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      Obama didn’t reveal his fraudulent COLB until AFTER Hillary conceded the primary race.

      So he released it why, exactly? Just randomly? For something to do? No prompting at all? The Fight the Smears website was set up so as to helpfully provide people with a list of things they could smear him with?

      Come off it, kdsb. The birther rumours had been circulating for months before June 2008. If Hillary or any of the other primary candidates had thought there was anything in them, they had plenty of time to bring the matter up. But they didn’t. Wonder why.

      McCain was already the beneficiary of a senate resolution declaring him to be a natural born citizen despite being born in the Panama Canal Zone.

      And Obama is the beneficiary of an Act of Congress which declares the exact same thing.

      Are you getting dizzy yet?

    • ksdb

      doug, you and the other faithers here show your true colors. You can’t explain the holes in Obama’s birth story and fraudulent credentials and can’t admit when you’re wrong, so you resort to namecalling and attempted bullying. If I was a coward, I would have stopped posting early in this thread. I’m still here to educate any faithers who are open-minded. Nobody forces you to read or post here, so if you don’t like it, move along.

      dred, Obama released the COLB because he knew he could fool a lot of gullible people. I have to give him credit. It worked. Your argument about other candidates bringing the matter up during the primary is the same strawman doug tried to push earlier. We see how closely the HI DOH guards Obama’s birth records, and we see how Obots operate by creating pre-emptive forgeries like the E.F. Lavendar/Kenyan/Bomford certificate to undermine any potentially genuine documents that might emerge. Obama didn’t receive an Act of Congress declaring him to be a natural born citizen. His name and birth claim were stuffed into a resolution to honor Hawaii’s 50th year as a state. All it did was parrot an undocumented claim. Some people think the Senate resolution for McCain misstated his place of birth, so what part of these resolutions guarantee accuracy, and how do they do so??

    • Ruvy

      Truth be told, I would shoot ksdb on sight if the opportunity presented itself. Or beat him to a pulp, and gladly do my time. Who gives a fuck???

      You should give a fuck, Roger.

      One of the real freedoms you have in America, one which is being eroded away daily under this fascist regime of Obama’s, is the freedom to look at politics and give all the politicians a middle finger, and tell them all to go take a flying fuck inside a whale’s cunt – while you turn to the sports page to see how the Cardinals are doing.

      By the time Obama is done with you, you will not have the freedom to ignore the crooks and thieves and whores who are the run of the mill politicians and bureaucrats, because every single time you want to blow a fart, you’re going to get some damned permit from some damned politician or bureaucrat.

      That is when you are are going to stare into your bottle of potato booze in a haze of anger, you’ll throw your shot glass against the wall and scream, “kebinie matri!”. You’ll bang your fist on the table and you’ll curse the day I was born, saying “that fuckin’ loudmouth Israeli was right, damn him! I hate his guts! If I could only plug him with a bullet!”

      And wherever I am in Israel, my ears will burn pleasantly, knowing you are thinking of me, my friend.

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      we see how Obots operate by creating pre-emptive forgeries like the E.F. Lavendar/Kenyan/Bomford certificate

      Citation? (Again, not the first time you’ve been asked to back up this claim.) And actually, that statement reveals a lot more about how birthers and other conspiracists operate: by dismissing as fake anything which contradicts their preconceived ideas.

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      @ #170, 171:

      Editors, shouldn’t this article belong in the Fantasy section?

      ;-)

    • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com roger nowosielski

      No, Ruvy, it’s a non-issue to me where he was born. If the Obama-haters really thought they had a case – and don’t tell me they don’t have many able lawyers – the matter would already be before the courts.

      So in addition to the fact that I find this discussion boring – yes, you can kill people for no lesser reason than that, I’m sure some have done it – ksdb suffers from what’s generally known as idée fixe.

      It is a form of mental disorder.

    • ksdb

      dread, here’s a blog that tells about the Bomford certificate hoax.

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      idée fixe… It is a form of mental disorder.

      Rather outdated, Roger, in psychological terms. An idée fixe doesn’t necessarily have to be delusional. But it is indeed a symptom of some of the obsessive-compulsive spectrum disorders – and some conspiracy theorists most assuredly do suffer from forms of OCD.

      I won’t go as far as to claim this of kdsb: I just think his critical thinking apparatus is lacking.

    • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

      If the Obama-haters really thought they had a case – and don’t tell me they don’t have many able lawyers – the matter would already be before the courts.

      They have many able lawyers. And the matter has been before a number of courts. And the government has the money to buy off the judges – Obama appoints the federal judges, so they know that if they rule against his legitimacy, they have NO chance at a higher spot….

      As for being bored with “ksdb”, you don’t have to read his posts. Hey, I stay away from the place where you argue philosophy for the same reason. It’s as boring as all hell, not to mention, IMHO, irrelevant.

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      ksdb, your link proves nothing about your claim. It relates how the fake certificate was produced to test whether Orly Taitz and her followers would swallow any old crap – which they duly did.

      How can it be a ‘pre-emptive forgery’ if it came to light over a year after the Obama campaign released his COLB?

      (And I’m sure the irony is quite lost on you that your link is from an anti-birther site.)

    • ksdb

      dread, funny how you act like you have some logical capacities and then fail to show them. The person who prodcued the fake to test Orly was an Obama apologist. He went around blogs and political sites trying to bring down the Polarik forgery accusations. And it was a pre-emptive fogery in case Orly had a real Kenyan certificate. I didn’t say it was a pre-emptive forgery for the Obama COLB. I said for any REAL certificates that might emerge. If I was talking about the COLB, I would have said so. Focus, dread, focus.

    • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

      Well, I was being ornery on purpose, Dreadful.

      Don’t have as much patience as you do.

    • John Wilson

      ksdb is hopeless. Gone.

    • pablo

      Kdsb been putting you to shame lately dread.

    • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

      Pablo, the fact that you believe that tells everyone more than they need to know about you.

    • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

      I have an explanation for it all — and much more besides. However, as the frequent recipient of barrages from World Net Daily, I am delighted to be able pass along the latest news. My views on this exciting topic are stated here.

      Before dealing with where President Obama was born, the query should be if he was born, or merely deposited somewhere as an egg by one of the Reverend Mr. Wright’s chickens on the way home to roost. Or should that be “roast?”

      Dan(Miller)

    • zingzing

      he wasn’t born so much as he fell out.

    • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

      Why stop there? For all we know, he may not even exist.

      Solipsism anyone?

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      kdsb, you wriggle more vigorously than a hamster I once knew.

      And it was a pre-emptive fogery in case Orly had a real Kenyan certificate.

      How do you know?

      And your claim still doesn’t explain why it took so long to come to light – especially since, as it turns out, Taitz did not have an authentic certificate.

      BTW, where is that Kenyan birth certificate? They aren’t all that hard to get hold of, as the link I posted yesterday shows.

      (And what is a ‘fogery’, anyway? Is it a deception practiced by an old fogey?)

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      Dan, don’t you write for a certain right-wing website named after an item of sleepwear?

      Oddly enough, the verification word I had to type in order to post a comment on your blog just now was ‘pajamput’.

      Eerie.

    • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

      One thing’s for certain. When Ruvy, Pablo and ksdb are in the same camp, you can bet your sweet arse that something is up.

      Let me suggest one common denominator: Obama-hatred.

      What’s amazing, neither can think of a better target. They, each and everyone, must think Obama a messiah or a miracle man to have singlehandedly orchestrated America’s demise. And if that’s not being naive about politics to the point of childishness, I don’t know what is. But I guess hatred is blind.

    • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

      Roger, “I think therefore I am.” President Obama seems infrequently to think. From that, it is clear that he may well not exist, except in some alternative universe from which his edicts are transmitted through little worm holes in the space-time continuum.

      If you don’t understand, a review of some of the philosophical works of Douglas, the late lamented Earl Adams, may be useful.

      Dan(Miller)

    • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

      President Obama seems infrequently to think.

      I know that’s a joke. Or a “joke.” Or something. But Dan, capable of great wit and insight, often ends up coming off as just another partisan, unpleasantly sniping, when he gives in to his dark side. Not funny, not true, not worth saying.

    • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

      When Ruvy, Pablo and ksdb are in the same camp

      That’s when the rest of us should know better than to take the bait and get into pointless circular debates.

      Aren’t they in the same camp all the time? Space Camp for Permanently Adolescent Paranoiacs.

    • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

      Doc,

      Dan, don’t you write for a certain right-wing website named after an item of sleepwear?

      Guilty as charged. As to the verification word, that is indeed eerie. Thanks, though, for the comment on my little blog.

      Perhaps some of our conspiracy theorists can come up with an explanation.

      Dan(Miller)

    • STM

      kdsb: “Maybe you’d have better luck arguing Australian politics … or something you actually have some knowledge about”

      Maybe. You probably should too, because you know sweet fuck all about American politics.

    • STM

      Bottom line: All kdsb and his mates have is a half-baked conspiracy theory.

      Aliens have obviously switched off the half of their brain that deals with reasoned thought.

      The reason there has been no successful court challenge related to the nonsense he posts is because it none of it will hold up in court.

      Even the majority of people who don’t like Obama and who don’t believe he should be president don’t buy in to this rubbish.

      As for my Australian mate born in the US and holding US citizenship, he IS eligible to be a president of the US provided he has spent a certain amount of time there (14 years as a permanent resident).

      Since he has never sworn an oath to protect the constitution, nor rebelled against the United States, he is eligible.

      How ridiculous then that he can qualify, having spent most of his life in another country he has no desire to leave and his father holding American citizenship … and these maniacs believe that a person born in the US (an American citizen at birth AND natural-born according to all the evidence) to a US citizen and mostly raised in the US is not eligible.

      It’s cloud cuckoo land.

    • STM

      And should be treated with the contempt it deserves.

    • Irene Wagner

      #128: I give up. Who were they?

    • dennish

      Obama dad was british citizen, therefore NOT A NATURAL BORN. Does not make any difference where he was born.

    • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

      This article was just a mind trick by Dave Nalle to increase site traffic. I admire Doc and STM for sticking it to these yoyo’s, but it’s pretty pointless.

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      What, Irene, you mean the presidents who’d be ineligible according to kdsb’s interpretation of ‘natural born citizen’?

      Obama is the first in a long time to have a non-citizen or non-native-born parent. The last was Herbert Hoover, whose mother was (or wasn’t, depending on your source) Canadian. Woodrow Wilson’s mother was English. Chester Arthur and James Buchanan had Irish fathers.

      And the really famous one? Andrew Jackson, both of whose parents were born in Ireland.

      So I guess kdsb shouldn’t go spending any twenty-dollar bills.

    • Irene Wagner

      Woohoo! Thanks Dr. D.

      Course this whole discussion is rendered null and void by the wise old adage:
      “You’re only ever REALLY sure who the mama is.”

    • Irene Wagner

      And that was NOT a racial slur, I hasten to add.

    • Irene Wagner

      I am wondering, sort of though, what else does ksdb stand for?

      That isn’t really a fair question, though, because it is not outside the realm of possibility that someone who might know us would adopt a separate username for adopting a position for that would cause him to be ostracized in other contexts. (Yes, you’re dying to know what mine is, I’m sure. It’s Undercover Fundy.)

      But is there something else ksdb, that you stand for, if it’s not presumptuous to ask?

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      “You’re only ever REALLY sure who the mama is.”

      Wouldn’t it be funny if it turned out that the real reason Obama wouldn’t release his birth certificate was that his real dad was Dweezil B. Knutsack of Pothole, Kansas, who was stricken from the family rolls after he was jailed for looking at a police officer in a funny way?

    • Irene Wagner

      Whoa, Dr. D, this place is giving me the heebie jeebies. Like…you posted that funny video with the guy who looks like MR. BEAN in it, and the wonderful parting shot….EVEN as I had held in CTRL-C reserve the following link.

      Ah, if you wait long enough, you’ll hear something funny about racism and

    • Irene Wagner

      Clavos and I went through a series of about 48 comments like this once. Let’s try that link again:
      “…you’ll hear somethning funny about racism and even North Korea
      if you wait long enough. You’ll know the line when you see it.

      Well, off to get me Major Babe Beauty Sleep.

    • zingzing

      doc–what show is that? i wouldn’t think it’s blackadder, but i could be wrong… and what’s the spg?

      “lrene”–that is mr. bean. (by the way, lrene, i’m spelling your name with a lowercase L now. splte! splte!)

    • http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ STM

      Dennish: “Obama dad was british citizen, therefore NOT A NATURAL BORN. Does not make any difference where he was born.”

      Wrong. Go and look up the definition according to how the constitution and the US government defines it. If he’s born on US soil to a US citizen (mother or father), he qualifies.

      He might even qualify just by being born on US soil, because he’s entitled to citizenship.

      Why don’t you guys find out the facts before you post this half-baked, pie-in-the-sky crap.

      Nowhere does the constituion actually define what natural born means.

      So, what, a US citizen AT BIRTH, can’t be eligible? Then John McCain might not have been eligible either.

      This is just a load of nonsense from people who have got half an idea, checked a few things out on the internet, and run with it.

      The only problem is, they keep dropping the ball with the line wide open.

    • http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ STM

      Winston Churchill wasn’t eligible to be Prime Minister of Great Britain.

      His mother was American.

      Luckily, they didn’t care.

    • http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ STM

      Handy: “This article was just a mind trick by Dave Nalle to increase site traffic. I admire Doc and STM for sticking it to these yoyo’s, but it’s pretty pointless.”

      Yeah, but it’s hours fun Handy … and great practise.

      As for Nalle’s old Jedi mind trick, yep, he’s a clever boy.

      Loves bringing the fringe element out of the woodwork.

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      zing: what show is that?

      It’s Not the Nine O’Clock News, which ran from about 1979-1982 and launched the careers of its four stars Mel Smith, Griff Rhys Jones, Pamela Stephenson and – yes, Irene, that is Mr Bean, a.k.a. Rowan Atkinson.

      and what’s the spg?

      The Special Patrol Group, a defunct unit of the London Metropolitan Police which was mainly used in public order/crowd control situations and as strategic backup. They had a cowboy reputation which was the butt of a lot of jokes (hence the punchline of the skit), and the unit was eventually disbanded following a series of high-profile brutality complaints.

    • http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ STM

      Doc, my two favourite NTNOCNS skits … The Chinese diplomats (the people from the western and east plains), and I Like Truckin’

      A very young Rowan Atkinson in the truckin skit (and, ah, Pamela Stephenson in a short skirt … ’nuff said).

    • http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ STM

      Actually, the Chinese skit is from Alas Smith and Jones.

      Anyway … Here (I like truckin’) and here Chinese skit

      Hilarious, especially the second one, if you like that kind of stuff :)

    • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

      Stan, it’s like when the worms come up after a good rain and then roast to death in the sun on the sidewalk.

      Dave

    • http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ STM

      Yeah … the ads were right: it IS hours of fun. Dave, check out the Chinese diplomat skit above. You’ll appreciate it. Cheers

    • zingzing

      not the 9 o’clock news… never heard of it. british sketch comedy is only rivaled by kids in the hall. although there have been some really good american ones (chappelle’s, mr. show, robot chicken (sometimes), carol burnett), i’ve never gotten into them like i have british and canadian stuff. although now that i say that, tim and eric awesome show great job is pretty classic already, if incredibly awkward. and eric of tim and eric is possibly the greatest music video director ever. (check out his flying lotus or health videos.)

    • http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ STM
    • http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ STM

      And Doc, these Kevin Rudd propaganda videos in Mandarin are for you. You know the joke, don’t you … that he speaks fluent Manadarin?

      Video 1 (Kevin 07, The long march to Canberra)

      Video 2 (The great victory of leader Rudd)

    • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

      “they know that if they rule against his legitimacy, they have NO chance at a higher spot”

      why wouldn’t they? the new person in charge would be more than likely to reward the judges. you don’t know what you are talking about (again).

      “Let me suggest one common denominator”

      Good thing you gave the answer. Mine was insulting yet no less accurate

    • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

      I have a newsflash for you all. It doesn’t mean a rat’s ass to me if Obama is found to be the fraud he is or not. He is doing something for me that I alone, or that all of us in the Nationalists Camp in Israel, no matter how much we burned up our keyboards, could manage to do.

      Obama is convincing the average Israeli Yossi Sixpack that the United States government is the enemy of the Jewish people, and of Israel in particular.

      We nationalists here, could never pull that off the way Obama has. If Jew-hatred didn’t stink from shit, I’d say it’s a class act.

      And the prick will not be thrown out before his time to be arrives. Since you refuse to be warned, then he is your problem. I wash my hands of the whole thing. I officially don’t give a fuck.

      But since you don’t either, you will find yourself paying….

      Have a nice day!!

    • zingzing

      DOOOM

    • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

      “I wash my hands of the whole thing.”

      A re-enactment of the Pontius Pilate story.

    • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

      Kind of interesting, zing, that our conservatives have little or nothing to say without the left to egg ‘em on.

      Their silence speaks volumes.

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      Stan, I’ll have to look at those videos when I get home. YouTube is blocked at my office, which is definitely not where I’m commenting from right now. Definitely.

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      DOOOM

      Bearing in mind your affinity for British comedy, zing, you’ll appreciate why I sometimes contemplate whether Ruvy is a reincarnation of this guy.

    • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski
    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      It does look a bit like him…

    • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

      Ruvy will be thrilled.

    • nofecespleaz

      Attention: Glenn Contrarian . You are saying that the State Of Hawaii started digitizing birth certificates in 1999. So you are suggesting that Barry Sortoro never in the 38 years between when he was born and when they started digitizing these records, that he never had occasion to obtain a birth certificate. I think it is more likely that he never had an occasion to need to go to the toilet for 38 years and I think that may explain some of his irrational statements. He is just so plugged up with the facts that he cannot talk without a teleprompter other than to say: “I have nothing to hide” or to tell one of the Cook County Clowns to say that “You are racist”.

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      Stan, finally took a look at your Rudd propaganda videos. Very clever, although obviously a lot of the political/pop culture references went over my head.

      Funny how alike in their approach totalitarian and democratic politicians are in some ways…

    • http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ STM

      Mate, I can tell that the guy who did these videos was spot on.

      Rudd is looking more and more like a professional bureaucrat as time goes by.

      We have had some bizarre stuff going on here.

      Thank God this country has a healthy and robust democracy driven by ordinary citizens highly engaged in the political process and who are determined to be heard.

      So far, people power (ordinary Aussies jumping up and down and calling talkback radio, writing to newspapers and posting on blogs, and supported by some excellent reporting in the mainstream media, has:

      Stopped the government’s carbon emissions trading scheme (cap and trade) in the Senate because the main target would of such a new giant tax would be folks like you and me, not the big corporations and miners and coal-burning energy companies.

      Stopped a roof insulation stimulus scheme that resulted in the deaths of four installers (all young I’m told) and was leapt upon by shonks who the day before the scheme started were butchers, bakers and candlestick makers, then suddenly morphed into insulation installers on the day this very generous scheme began (basically ripping off taxpayers)

      And led to an enquiry into a federally funded school building program 9the Building Eduication Revolution) that looks like it contains some giant rorts … for instance, one school put in a covered outdoor learning centre a few years back at a cost of $78,000; under the government’s scheme, one of the large building corporations emplyed to manage the work quoted somewhere in the region of $900,000 for another new one about the same size at the same school.

      Plus, boatloads of asylum seekers are lobbing up on our shores because they know we’re a soft touch … captains of the boats saying they don’t mind being caught because Aussie jails are “like hotels”. Immigration centres offshore are now overflowing like a bad sewerage system as people are processed for visas. Now they’re being sent straight to the mainland and people hate it because they know it’s a rort that keeps real refugees going through the process further down the queue.

      Now Rudd has a plan for a federal takeover of the health system (in NSW, it’s inm crisis because of state government mismanagement but the rest aren’t so sure about it), and the State Premier of Victoria, John Brumby – also a Labor politician – is refusing to agree and without full agreement from the states, it can’t go ahead.

      Brumby is smart … he’s obviously looked at how the other stuff has panned out and reailised it’s all been dreamed up overnight and might be fraught.

      Plus, they are trying to censor our internet use by blocking stuff that might be harmful to children. This is the same kind of firewall they use in China and North Korea.

      Nice to be joing that pack. I bet that doesn’t happen either.

      I predict this government will go at the next election, or come very close to it.

      Labor is hated in NSW, where the state government’s mismanagement is legendary. That will spin off federally at the polls, and Rudd needs to carry NSW to do well.

      Each passing day looks shakier.

      Problem is, who do we have instead.

      A liberal party whose last pea and thimble trick was to destroy 100 years worth of industrial relations legislation that gave Australian workers the best pay and conditions of any western developed nation.

      I shudder to think. We are caught between a rock and a hard place.

    • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy


      Plus, they are trying to censor our internet use by blocking stuff that might be harmful to children. This is the same kind of firewall they use in China and North Korea. Nice to be joing that pack. I bet that doesn’t happen either.

      I predict this government will go at the next election, or come very close to it. Labor is hated in NSW, where the state government’s mismanagement is legendary. That will spin off federally at the polls, and Rudd needs to carry NSW to do well.

      Each passing day looks shakier.

      Problem is, who do we have instead? A liberal party whose last pea and thimble trick was to destroy 100 years worth of industrial relations legislation that gave Australian workers the best pay and conditions of any western developed nation.

      I shudder to think. We are caught between a rock and a hard place.

      Hmmm….

      Looks like running off to Oz may NOT be such a good idea for Seppos trying to escape the fascist Obama régime.

      Maybe New Zealand, then….

      Here, kiwi kiwi kiwi! Here, kiwi kiwi kiwi! Come to the Seppo with the money!

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      Ruvy, you missed the whole point of Stan’s list of grievances, which was that as hare-brained as many of both major parties’ ideas are, they are held in some degree of check by a vigorous and easily-angered voting public.

      Aussies may outwardly seem easy-going, but they won’t take any shit lying down – especially from politicians.

    • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

      I shudder to think. We are caught between a rock and a hard place.

      Reading review for ex-pat Brits near the Left Coast of the United States.

      AFTER telling us how Aussies don’t take shit lying down like American (or British) sheeple, and informing us of the hare-brained schemes of the ruling Labour party and the unruly Liberals, Stan informs us that the Aussie voting public (in his opinion) really has no where to turn.

      Have a pinch of snuff, Doctor – or whatever it is the aging hippies in your area hand out for recreational and spiritual enhancement….

    • STM

      Right NOW we don’t have anywhere to turn, Ruvy … but we’ll let the bastards know what we expect, and if they want to win an election, they’ll have to listen.

      One way or the other, the ordinary people in this country have a habit of making politicians listen AND do …

      Remember, everyone votes (or everyone turns up at the polling place to get their name ticked off, and having done, usually decides to register a vote).

      They can’t get away on us mate. “The people” in this country are a different political animal to “the people” in some other countries – America in particular.

      This is a very different place. Ordinary people really do have a voice here and a very, very loud one.

      And still the buggers in our state and federal parliaments conveniently forget – for a while – who it was whom put them there, but we can easily remind them who it is that can take them out of there.

    • Jordan Richardson

      Ordinary people really do have a voice here and a very, very loud one.

      Refreshing, isn’t it? Instead of just the illusion of the “ordinary person,” some countries actually do have regular “folks” involved in how shit works.

    • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

      Right NOW we don’t have anywhere to turn, Ruvy … but we’ll let the bastards know what we expect, and if they want to win an election, they’ll have to listen.

      So, Stan, just bottom line it for me. Should I send my non-Jewish Seppo friends to you guys or to the Kiwis to get away from the emergent fascism in the States? It’s really a simple question….

    • Jordan Richardson

      You call your “friends” seppos, Ruvy? Wow. Are they happy about the septic tank comparisons or do they just not know you’re a jerk?

    • STM

      Either way, Ruvy, it wouldn’t matter. Here is nicer (depending on what you like, and looks more like the US), New Zealand is a bit cheaper and might be more like the US midwest visually outside the cities.

      Politically, they are very similar – except the NZ parliament is unicameral, which I don’t like. They abolished their upper house in 1950.

      Still, they are similar to us in the way they go about their business, the laws are virtually identical, and they are very independent … and a great bunch of people.

      And if you don’t like one country, you can hop on a plane and go to the other very easily.

      I’m pretty sure you still don’t need visas for travel between Oz and NZ if you’re a citizen of one or the other. I haven’t been over the ditch for a long time, though.

      A lot of South Africans have moved to both places over the past 20 years, and lots of your mob too, Ruve.

    • STM

      Jordan:
      some countries actually do have regular “folks” involved in how shit works.

      Parliamentary democracy is a wonderful thing, ain’t it Jordan??. As with you, we can chuck ‘em out of they get too uppity, without even waiting for the end of their parliamentary terms.

      Combined with “compulsory” voting (compulsory turning up to vote; they can’t actually make you do it as it’s a secret ballot), that gives everyone a voice.

      Also, Seppo is not pejorative here.

      It’s just rhyming slang. No offence meant, now or ever.

      If you don’t have a nickname in this joint, no matter how bad, it means no one gives a rat’s. Better to have a shitty one than none at all.

    • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

      “. . . and lots of your mob too, Ruve.”

      What mob is that?

    • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

      “If you don’t have a nickname in this joint, no matter how bad, it means no one gives a rat’s. Better to have a shitty one than none at all.”

      This part I do like. But speaking for myself, I’ve never been without one.

      Even the rednecks like me in person – never mind online – if only because I arouse their curiosity. And likewise, I never met a person I didn’t like (except Ruvy perhaps).

      Just a rub, Ruvy.

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      Politically, they are very similar

      Except New Zealand is a bit more conservative, isn’t it? And don’t the Maori have somewhat stronger a voice, constitutionally, than do the indigenous Australians?

    • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

      “. . . and lots of your mob too, Ruve.”

      What mob is that?

      That would be the infamous Corleonskys. Their trademark tactic is to have some of their biggest lads wander into nations with large fertile deltas, ‘accidentally’ barge into people, knock over a few amphoras and make loud comments about what a nice country it is and wouldn’t it be a shame if some deity were to come along and afflict it with plagues.

      ;-)

    • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

      I’m trying to picture the scene. If I were Stan, though, I wouldn’t welcome the buggers with open arms.

    • STM

      Doc: “What mob is that?”

      If we’re on rhyming slang … the “forbies”.

    • STM

      In fact, one thing I do like about this country is that you can know somone of a certain religious bent for a long time, and never know or need to know what their religious bent is.

      I don’t thnk anyone gives a rat’s, to use that phrase again, unless people of a certain religious bent are making us aware of their certain religious bent because they’d like to blow us up simply because we’re not part of that certain religious bent.

      All clear on that guys??

    • Maggie Corbin

      Funny…I myself am not a ‘birther’ because I don’t think at this point it even really matters but find it odd that no one here has posted any concrete FACTS to object to ksdb’s posted facts. It’s amusing that instead of honest and well-researched debate, we can only name-call and insult. “I don’t have any real facts to disagree with you other than a picture I’ve seen on Snopes so all you crazy birthers can just shut up. We’re gonna take our ball and go home!” :)

    • Kent

      THe liberal media did NOT do Obama a favor by coddling him during the election. If he had been vetted properly, questioned harshly (sure kindly too fine) and seriously researched then MAYBE he might not have made it past the primary. BUT folks. LIberals. He might have been a much STRONGER politician and more viable as a president.

      As it is he stinks.

      But you are part of that screw up. You did NOT DO YOUR JOBS. No question, not debatable. Its just plain obvious.

    • Gouchybear

      SNOPES? Are you serious? Shown to be run by Obamabots…

    • kathys100

      “this executive order is virtually the same as Executive Order 123283 (PDF),”

      this doesn’t seem to exist. what is the correct citation for the correpsonding Bush executive order?

    • JohnK

      Can you explain the purpose of this phrase found in Obama’s Order, but not in Bush’s?

      “However, nothing in this order is intended to affect the right of the incumbent or former Presidents to invoke executive privilege with respect to materials not identified by the Archivist.”

    • AdmC

      What’s REALLY silly is AZ’s law because my daughter was born there and she does not have and CANNOT get a “long form” BC and her BC looks very similar to the O’s BC because AZ has gone electronic too! LOL!

    • StevenI

      There is one difference in Obama’s Executive Order. Sec. 6. Revocation. Executive Order 13233 of November 1, 2001, is revoked.

      From Executive Order 13233:

      Sec. 6. Right of Congress and Courts to Obtain Access.

      This order does not expand or limit the rights of a court, House of Congress, or authorized committee or subcommittee of Congress to obtain access to the records of a former President pursuant to section 2205(2)(A) or section 2205(2)(C). With respect to such requests, the former President shall review the records in question and, within 21 days of receiving notice from the Archivist, indicate to the Archivist his decision with respect to any privilege. The incumbent President shall indicate his decision with respect to any privilege within 21 days after the former President has indicated his decision. Those periods may be extended by the former President or the incumbent President for requests that are burdensome. The Archivist shall not permit access to the records unless and until the incumbent President advises the Archivist that the former President and the incumbent President agree to authorize access to the records or until so ordered by a final and nonappealable court order.

    • Ann H Csonka

      Mr. Nalle: I agree with Doug Apr 09, 2010 at 8:28am on his main point: “Good article, I enjoy the occasional area where I can agree with people across the political spectrum.”
      THANK YOU FOR THINKING.

      The sad and scary aspect is that countless folks who have posted here (not to mention on Rath’s articles) seem to be entirely closed to facts, logic, and apparently won’t even try to comprehend any information or views other than their own obsessions.

      It is just terrifying that some new crap will surface, go viral, and destroy our nation.

      I support Pres. Obama, but we do share the inclination to t-h-i-n-k!
      Thanks again.

    • Ricky

      Why did Obama pay a Seattle law furm to find justification to suppress his records. What is he hidding. He paid 5 Millon to Koey Perkins Law firm for “legal justification to suppress his records. Hiding something in school records, finicial aid or must worse his gender identy possibly.

    • Leonard2

      First thing David Nalle does is name call. Proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that David has no credibility. Didn’t read past the first line. It would be a waste of time.