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The Elementary Structures of Politics

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John McCain’s selection of Sarah Palin as his running “mate” was both profound and perverse. By selecting a woman who is both unknown and unqualified to serve in national office, John McCain is not asking us to view his choice in terms of her own personal merits or any pre-existing attitudes we may have towards her known accomplishments. McCain’s “message” is that knowledge, experience, even temperament are not necessary qualifications for Presidential office.

The thunderclap of attention that has accompanied Palin’s political ascent is not the admiration appropriate to an accomplished public sector administrator but rather the adulation due a mother-goddess figure. Republican groupies and media sycophants reacted to Palin as an archetype, not as an individual. By suggesting this political liaison, McCain used Palin’s gender to achieve his political ends and in doing so reified age-old practices where women were treated as commodities that are exchanged to balance and confirm the social order.

In his study of pre-modern cultural practices, Structural Anthropology, French anthropologist Claude Lévi-Strauss called the marriage arrangements of pre-literate societies a type of “slow” communication.  By defining appropriate liaisons, including attitudes towards incest, preferred marriage partners, required social, economic and religious attributes, and by using women as the medium of exchange, earlier societies ensured their continuation.  "By conforming to these rules, a society facilitates certain types of unions or associations and excludes others.” (Structural Anthropology, p. 353)

When we define appropriate marital liaisons, we determine the course of human evolution and complete the transition from nature to culture. By the way, Lévi-Strauss’ characterization of kinship strictures as a type of communication is not totally unfamiliar to Media Ecologists. In The Disappearance of Childhood, Neil Postman wrote that "Children are the message we will send to a time we will never see."

By describing children as a “message,” Postman challenged us to imagine what medium is being used to convey these messages. Though Postman’s focus was on our education systems and how electronic media redefine our notions of childhood, a broader view places children “messages” within the “medium” of kinship systems and matrimonial proscriptions.

Marital restrictions have loosened in our post-industrial society, though they have not disappeared entirely. But clearly, as women approach social equality with men in our era, the archaic limitations placed on women’s aspirations, the so-called glass ceiling, has developed cracks. John McCain’s attitude towards women, as manifested in his partnership with Sarah Palin, is an attempt to cement over those cracks.

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  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    If your argument here made any sense at all then it would be equally valid to say that by picking a black man who is as underqualified for his job as Palin is, the Democratic party is essentially returning Obama to slavery and validating the idea that people should be exploited purely for their race. Is that really the kind of argument you meant to make here?

    Dave

  • Baronius

    “The thunderclap of attention that has accompanied Palin’s political ascent is not the admiration appropriate to an accomplished public sector administrator but rather the adulation due a mother-goddess figure.”

    Says who?

    For most of the last two years, there has been a campaign going on, with nothing in particular happening. There were a bunch of nearly identical debates, a few interesting primaries, and then the long death scene of the Clinton campaign. The press gave Obama a lot of attention as he was new. Biden, Clinton, McCain, not so much. Then Palin came along and the press corps had someone new to talk about. The coverage of Palin has been more than that of Biden, but it hasn’t been especially adulatory.

  • Robert K. Blechman

    Thanks, Dave for your comment. To compare Obama, who earned his nomination through 18 months of hard campaigning, to Palin, who was annointed by a desperate Republican cabal, mistakes my point. Granted we also have racial residues to overcome (how else to explain the fact that the political race is nearly even despite McCain’s obvious flip-flops, gaffs and declining abilities?), but the Obama narrative bears little correlation to the Palin one.

    Had McCain selected a more qualified running mate, my basic argument would not be valid.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    But, as has to be said and has been said, again and again, Palin is a VP candidate, not a presidential candidate. VPs are frequently picked because they fit some demographic criteria. The right religion, the right age, the right geographic origin or association with some specific issue where the candidate is perceived as weak. And they don’t campaign for the job (well, Biden did), they get picked from the throng by presidential candidate and his advisers.

    And don’t think you can get away with the ridiculous claim that Obama’s campaign is somehow relevant experience for the presidency. It’s not. And his qualifications and work experience are barely adequate for the job. Just making good speeches should not be sufficient to get someone elected to that high office, Lincoln not withstanding.

    DAve

  • Cannonshop

    Notably, Lincoln was the nominee of a brand-new political party at the time. Obama is the anointed candidate of the oldest political party in the United States, and while the Republicans of Lincoln’s day really didn’t have an “establishment”, the Democrats most certainly ARE the Establishment.

    For instance, a certain director of Fannie Mae forced out of office for cooking the books was on Obama’s “Search” committee vetting potential VP’s.

  • Robert K Blechman

    I don’t believe I claimed that Obama’s successful campaign constituted his qualifications to be President. I was merely commenting on the various means by which the candidates achieved their nominations.

    The experience/inexperience opposition that Republicans like to play loses its validity under current circumstances. First, they can’t claim that Obama’s inexperience invalidates the Democratic ticket while Sarah Palin’s inexperience is of no consequence given she is a heartbeat away from the office.

    Second, as this week’s financial disasters help illustrate, experience is of no use if it continually leads you to the wrong conclusions, as McCain’s has regarding the Iraq occupation, the value of regulation of financial markets and the honor of conducting a political campaign built on continuous lies and political dirty tricks.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Again, the way that someone becomes a presidential nominee and the way that someone becomes a VP nominee should not be the same. You seem intent on trying to make this a contest of Obama vs. Palin. It’s not.

    Second, as this week’s financial disasters help illustrate, experience is of no use if it continually leads you to the wrong conclusions,

    The current financial mess was at least 40 years in the making and has many guilty parties. It’s not the work of any one party or group of individuals. There’s blame for all.

    as McCain’s has regarding the Iraq occupation,

    Except that at least in this one area McCain seems to have been proven right.

    the value of regulation of financial markets

    If you’re going to have the government involved in the financial market it needs to be in a regulatory capacity and it needs to actually regulate and not fiddle around other ways.

    and the honor of conducting a political campaign built on continuous lies and political dirty tricks.

    Hardly something the Obama campaign and their covert supporters are innocent of. At least McCain hasn’t got ACORN registering hundreds of thousands of bogus voters in all of the battleground states. Indictments against ACORN are in the works in Michigan, Florida, Ohio, North Carolina, Pennsylvania and a dozen other states. Not good news for Obama considering he used to work for ACORN when he was a community organizer.

    My favorite ACORN indictment of all time is still the one in Ohio where they got indicted for paying a registration drive worker in crack cocaine.

    Dave

  • Cannonshop

    “Except that at least in this one area McCain seems to have been proven right.”

    Well…yeah, but it wasn’t the abject retreat-in-defeat that Obama endorsed, Dave-so even though it worked, it must’ve been wrong… Right Robert? Bad old Americans taking down that sweet old Hussein dude, after all, Sean Penn thought he was an excellent dude and all…

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Nice work, Robert! It’s fun to see Levi-Strauss quoted here and your intellectual argument is sound; too bad Dave is so rooted in his own weirdness he can’t even appreciate it.

    For fun, my women friends and I call Sarah “Caribou Barbie”, which shows how seriously women of intellect and women who have something important to offer in addition to their wombs (and I don’t denigrate my womb, having offered the world two extraordinary messages to the future myself)take her candidacy, but wish we didn’t have to. There are enough of us, I believe, who will refuse to allow men like McCain to get one tiny bit of cement onto that glass ceiling. This will, in the end, be a one off–one of those achingly desperate end-of-an-era political decisions that will go down in history as a huge mistake.

    Thank you so much for this article.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    PS Cannon

    Don’t you know that a major former lobbyist for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac is McCain’s chief advisor and that he had no fewer than seven MAJOR former lobbyists running his campaign….including a lobbyist for Georgia? (the country, not the state?)

    Gimme a break.

  • http://www.associatedcontent.com/user/39420/joanne_huspek.html Joanne Huspek

    As a woman, I find it a completely noxious idea that McCain chose Palin as a “commodity” and ONLY because she is female. If that were the case, there are scores of Republican women out there with similar backgrounds. He could have just as easily chosen one of them.

    This is one question I would love to ask McCain, one on one. However, since he’s a politician, I’m not sure he could give me a straight answer.

    Your theory, while interesting, is conjecture that reduces (in my mind, anyway) the entire male-female relationship (not only in politics, but in all situations) to the caveman days. I would like to believe that civilization may have made a smidgen of progress since then.

  • cuervodeluna

    She was chosen because she is a stereotypical BIMBO–and McCain knows that a lot of those BIMBOS vote.

    The fact that until last year’s sex change operation in Thailand she was a man didn’t stand in McCain’s way.

    In fact, it made it easier–since the BIMBO isn’t even a REAL woman.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Daniel Miller

    Here is a link to a very well written and insightful article. At least that’s my view. Many will doubtless disagree. However, it seems pretty much “on thread.”

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Daniel Miller

    Cuervodeluna,

    Very interesting comment (here and on other threads) about Governor Palin’s recent sex change operation. Not that I would dare to question your veracity, but I would appreciate an appropriate link so that I can study the matter. Perhaps the rest of us have been missing something very significant.

    Dan(Miller)

  • cuervodeluna

    Dan,

    I think what you missed was the humor.

    Pitbull with lipstick is fine with me as a label.

    Vagina dentada has a certain erudite appeal, too.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Daniel Miller

    Cuervodeluna

    I did indeed, and my response was rather tongue in cheek as well — particularly since Governor Palin is generally acknowledged to have given birth to a son some eighteen years ago. But then, her most recent child was claimed by some to have been her daughter’s rather than her own. There are many unfounded and unattributed allegations going around, so it is a bit difficult to know which is which and what is what. Some appear intended to be taken seriously.

    Incidentally, I too live in (very rural) Latin America and have since 2002. I suspect that, ideology aside, we may conceivably have in common a few perceptions. One of my favorites is that Gringos are (correctly, I think) viewed as having the following notion: “I like, so I want, so I need, so I am entitled to.” Haven’t seen much of that in our rural area.

    Dan(Miller)

  • troll

    Dan – Staneski’s article is Horowitzian noise bemoaning the loss of what never was

    human nature is social in the first instance – ‘natural rights, individual sovereignty, and self responsibility’ have meaning only in that context

    …Staneski’s ‘perversions’ are the result of contradictions in capitalism working themselves forward – what could be more perverse that wealth amidst poverty – ?

    ‘cultural marxism’ as used in the piece is a emotion laden fiction

    …..imo

  • cuervodeluna

    Dan,

    One never knows who gets something and who doesn’t. as there are some spectacularly obtuse folks regularly posting on this site.

    [Edited]

    A few years back I coined the term Gringo Dance on a blogsite for educators–and it really caught on among posters here. The term, I mean–I doubt that most of them changed their outrageously arrogant and demanding Gringo behavior, as I am sure they all thought the term applied to someone else.

    The Gringo Dance is seen in its various volumes and variations at the immigration offices, and the basic version consists of shouting in English and demanding to be served first (although everyone else has a ficha with a number on it), refusing to complete all the requirements for a work permit or to extend a tourist visa, whining and puling about the costs–with comments like mordida and sticking it to the foreigners and other favorite riffs, barging around the office with belligerant body language, and when the non_spanish speaker’s frustration reaches its height, yelling: Fuck all you Mexicans!

    The same dance can be seen in a number of different locations: banks, post offices, restaurants, BARS.

    I am sure you have seen it.

    My village is pretty rural in lifestyle, which is one of its attractions; but it is also 10 minutes from a good-sized town (of about 400K people) and is less than 2 hours from the Zócalo of Mexico City–so it is not rural at all in the sense of being isolated.

    There are no gringos in my village.

    In fact, as we have the reputation of being “matones” (which we foment actively in order to have some privacy), even folks from the big town 6 kilometers away are afraid to enter our municipio.

    I don’t think there are any gringos left in the town now. either. When I first came here–a little more than 15 years ago–there were 3–one a fugitive from a mental institution who found it easier to live on the streets in Mexico than in Gringolandia and had been here for 15 or 20 years without learning Spanish, one who was married to a Mexican woman and never learned any Spanish either and a third who was hiding out from California arrest warrants for refusing to pay child support–and who DID learn a fair amount of Spanish.

    There is one old German guy here who steams around in some kind of lederhosen. Must be hot in those pants….

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    I shall print out the Staneski article and read it. Looks intriguing at the least.

    Joanne, while you certainly have a good point, I think Blechman is being reductive in the specific rather than the general.

    And Dave, for goodness sake, can you stop beating this Acorn drum? Okay, okay there are some bad apples in that bunch. But they are not Obama’s fault. If we could blame the election fraud of 2004 on Bush he would not be in office, now would we? And by the way, if you read something else besides what supports your own point of view you would know that there is voter registration fraud going on among Republicans right now, too!!!!

  • cuervodeluna

    Fraud is traditional in all elections.

    Mexican pols have been hiring gringo specialists in election fraud to advise them on their campaigns.

    If you look back historically at presidential races in the US, you will see that elections were decided not in the ballot boxes, but in the smoke-filled rooms of the ward bosses.

    In 1960, JFK was “elected” by Boss Richard Daley in Chicago–and Joseph Kennedy spent a fortune buying votes in other venues.

    In 2000, Bush was “elected” by his brother Jeb Bush and the Miami Mafia.

    In 2004 it was Jeb. the Miami Mafia and the Ohio porkbarrelers.

    But this time round, there will not even have to be fraud, because Gringos are racist and when the chips are down, in the privacy of the voting booth, they will in a LARGE majority vote against Obama.

    True democracy in action.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Daniel Miller

    Cuervodeluna,

    We live roughly ten-fifteen minutes from a small town of maybe two hundred, and about forty minutes (more or less, depending on road conditions) from the third (? maybe now forth) largest city in the country. There is another town about forty minutes away full of gated communities, big houses and recent Gringo arrivals. Some are pretty good people; others, well I won’t get into that. The province has changed dramatically in recent years, and (in my view) not for the better. I hope it doesn’t happen where we live.

    Out closest neighbor (by road) is about two KM away, and the roads are, well, pretty bad. I like it that way, very much. So, it seems, do our (5) dogs (9) horses and (3) cats, not to mention the chickens and ducks.

    I am finally learning enough Spanish to communicate on a basic level, at least about horse stuff. When in Venezuela for a while, off and on for a year or so, I tried to learn a bit of Spanish, but didn’t try hard enough to succeed. Most of the Venezuelans I knew spoke English. Ditto Colombia.

    It is necessary to have at least basic language competence, and it also makes me feel more welcome. My wife, who spent two of her undergraduate years at the University of Mexico, speaks excellent Spanish (she is often mistaken, based on her accent, for someone from a South American country).

    The “Gringo Dance?” Hadn’t seen the phrase before, but it is appropriate. It is frequently performed, and I have been guilty of it myself on occasion, particularly before I attained rudimentary if ungrammatical competence in Spanish. Only once here have I seen a bumper sticker “no mas Gringos.” I threatened to put one on my car, but was dissuaded from doing so.

    When one comes to live in a different country, it is necessary to develop at least a rudimentary appreciation of the culture and to try to become part of the community. Some do, some don’t.

    At least I am very happy here, more so than ever before in my life.

    As to Dave, your and my perceptions are different, as they appear to be on any number of other subjects. Still, it is pleasant to exchange views with another expat.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://meetdavidblack.blogspot.com David Black

    “Granted we also have racial residues to overcome (how else to explain the fact that the political race is nearly even despite McCain’s obvious flip-flops, gaffs and declining abilities?), but the Obama narrative bears little correlation to the Palin one.”

    Ah yes, the typical lib manuever of playing the race card to their advantage.

    Never in a million years would you admit that your darling messiah Martin Luther Kennedy’s present showing is due to a paper thin resume and association with leftist radical creeps like Rev. Wright, William Ayers, and convicted felons like Tony Rezko.

    Also, who in their right mind would ever cite another radical loser like Saul Alinsky as a model citizen worthy of emulation?

    Ahat I cited just now should be enough to invalidate MLK’s candidacy.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    DB,

    Guilt by association.

    Let’s get down to the details. Tell us all of the specifics regarding Obama’s associations. You seem to have the skinny on all that. Again, be specific. Tell us all of the heinous things Obama has done in his associations with Wright, Ayers and Resco. Tell us specifically what it is that “invalidates” Obama’s candidacy. Give us the details.

    Do it, or leave it alone. All that is a strawman argument and you know it. It’s all bullshit!

    Despite all the hate and ignorance, Obama is going to kick McCain’s tight little ass in November and all of your irrational, mean spirited hopes will die in wretched despair.

    B

  • http://meetdavidblack.blogspot.com David Black

    A person is judged by the company they keep, at least in the world I live in.

    As far as I know, John McCain didn’t associate with leftist radicals who cut their evil and rotten little teeth during the Sixties by blowing up government buildings and going on record as saying they were proud of that achievement.

    John McCain was not a 20 year member of a radical separatist church where an anti-Semitic pastor said to his congregation “Not God Bless America, but Goddamn America!”

    John McCain’s children weren’t personally baptized by the same pastor, either.

    John and Cindy McCain did not have their marriage presided over by the same pastor as well.

    Yet, the messiah Martin Luther Kennedy denies that he had a close personal relationship with Wright.

    Yea, right.

    John McCain’s wife did not stand at the podium of their church during the summer of 2004 and say the following about her fellow Americans:

    “Once again, the white man keeps us down, what’s up with Whitey, Why’d he attack Iraq, Why’d he let Katrina happen, Why’d he leave millions of children behind. This is the legacy the white man gives us”

    Sorry, my friend, many Americans aren’t cowed by these leftist black radicals playing the race card to push their agenda on a bunch of weak willed lib cowards consumed by lingering guilt over slavery.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    I hate to agree with Cuervo even a little bit, but I think she is right that once people go into the voting booth many who say they are going to vote for Obama will not do so.

    I don’t think it will be primarily because of racism. As I see it we’re looking at almost the opposite. In order to make sure no one thinks they are racist, many people – especially democrats – will profess support for Obama just to make themselves look better. But when they get in the voting booth their concerns about his background and lack of qualifications will reassert themselves and they may not actually vote for him, not because they are racist, but because their fear of the appearance of racism will make them lie.

    On the way out when exit polled they’ll say they voted for him, of course. This will lead to exit polls which bear little resemblance to the actual vote and another round of groundless claims of election fraud.

    Dave

  • http://meetdavidblack.blogspot.com David Black

    Dave: I’m sure you already know this, but for the edification of others, it’s fair to say that the thing that libs fear the most is to appear racially or culturally insensitive in front of their peers.

    We all know that libs are, at the core, collectivists unable to think or speak beyond the will of the mob, which as far as this election goes, includes anything within the dailykos/moveon.org/Gen X/Y driven pop culture axis.

    Yet, within their most private thoughts, are prejudices that would, if verbalized, make them look to the right of the KKK.

    People are hard-wired to be xenophobic, that’s fact. Only the truly honest among us are willing to acknowledge that.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Tarring all “libs” with the your same weird brush is absurd and ugly. Neither I, nor anyone I know well, no more harbor thoughts anywhere like what you profess to put into our brains, than do the more “conservative” persons–both friends and family–I know and love.

  • http://meetdavidblack.blogspot.com David Black

    I’m sorry, Lisa, but my 62 years of life and living indicate otherwise. A lib is a lib is a lib.

    The fact is is that I prefer honesty and clarity over appeasement and “going along to get along.”

    Lisa, I’d like to know if you employ the “tarring with your same weird brush” comment toward those who attack Bush, Cheney, McCain, Palin, or anyone that has an (R) following their name?

    Somehow, I think that what raises your ire depends solely on whose ox is being gored.

  • Robert K Blechman

    In my nearly 58 years of honest and clearly liberal ox goring I have learned that there are two types of people in this world: Those that divide the world into two types of people, and those that dont.

  • Clavos

    #29 gets my vote for best comment of the week…

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    David,

    I am also 62 years old, and I am a leftie, a liberal, perhaps even a closet socialist, and I am proud of it.

    All your years have done for you is to make you a total bigot without an original thought in your ntiny aal retentive mind.

    As harsh as his words may have been, the Reverend Wright wasn’t entirely wrong. He knows who the black man’s enemy is. He knows that people such as yourself remain in this country.

    B

  • http://meetdavidblack.blogspot.com David Black

    Pretty profound, Bob, however, please keep in mind that politics is not a spectator sport and it’s better to strike first on offense rather than fall back on your heels in defense.

    I learned that without having to read from a guy whose family made blue jeans.

    “Children are the message we will send to a time we will never see.”

    When I read stuff like that, I think back to all those PhD pinheads i was subjected to in university… those closet Marxists whom every day extolled the virtues of socialism and Ho Chi Minh and took every opportunity to bash America and its leaders.

    When I read quotes like that, I think of other intellectual folderol like “Tomorrow is the first day of the rest of your life” or “Tune in, turn on, and drop out.”

    I preferred the age when children were expected to act like small adults and accept adult responsibilities because that’s what was believed to be the means to train them for a tough and demanding existence. However, since junk scientists like Dr. Benjamin Spock virtually ruined several generations of American children and turned them into mewling wimps, I can see how warm and fuzzy homilies can become so easily accepted in academe.

    Thank goodness I was raised by no-nonsense Jewish immigrants chased from Europe after Kristallnacht who believed the Old World way was the best way.

  • http://meetdavidblack.blogspot.com David Black

    “the Reverend Wright wasn’t entirely wrong. He knows who the black man’s enemy is.”

    No he doesn’t, otherwise, he’d cite the liberal minority leadership and their guilt ridden white liberal lapdogs who enable weakness by actually promoting irresponsibility and an entitlement underclass mentality among so many po’ minorities in America.

    The dirty little secret is that without a po’ minority underclass, LIBS HAVE NO POWER. Without power, they have no real reason to exist.

    That’s the truth and I’m not afraid to say it.

    You don’t teach criminal scum a lesson by giving them third, fourth, or fifth chances to turn straight. You sentence them to long and harsh sentences that doesn’t include watching TV, doing drugs, or buggering one another in shower rooms.

    This is the reason black males comprise nearly half of the entire US prison system while blacks in toto comprise only 12% of the entire US population.

    The difference between me and a lib is that unlike a lib, I’m not afraid to speak honestly and frankly about racial problems. Facts are facts, yet, libs wring their hands and utter more pitiful excuses for these problems that never address the real blame.

    Thankfully, I’m not a member of a party that needs a dependent minority underclass for votes.

  • Zedd

    Dave,

    @#1 Except Obama is smart and has practical workable solutions; will up our value and clout /respectability internationally. That sorta makes a difference.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Keep it coming, keep it coming. You are digging yourself a hole that once deep enough, few here or elsewhere will offer to pull you out. Helping hands are wavering and drawing back.

    Yessir! You are the embodiment of the “straight talk express! Toot, toot…

    B

  • http://meetdavidblack.blogspot.com David Black

    Sorry, baritone, you must have me confused with one of your collectivist friends who lives to “go along to get along” with the mob.

  • http://meetdavidblack.blogspot.com David Black

    “will up our value and clout /respectability internationally. That sorta makes a difference.”

    I see, zedd, that great international community that cowers before islamo-fascist terrorism and allows their countries to be overrun by muslim hordes who have zero interest in assimilating with the native country’s culture.

    Sorry, I’m not interested in being friends with a continent that will eventually become Eurabia.

    Londonstan, anyone? But libs are OK with that, I know.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    David Black, how old are you? You sound like a bitter and grumpy old man to me, one who has long ago lost the ability to think critically anymore and prefers the soapbox to actual thinking. If you are actually under 60 I will be very surprised and not a little disappointed.

    Just one tiny snippet from your tirades speaks far more illuminatingly than you probably intended:

    The dirty little secret is that without a po’ minority underclass, LIBS HAVE NO POWER. Without power, they have no real reason to exist.

    That’s the truth and I’m not afraid to say it.

    There are many reasons for liberals to exist, including to oppose the clearly hateful ideas you are supporting. Apparently you despise about half the entire US population.

    Even if there was no poverty in the USA, which is a very long way from being the case, despite Republicans being in control of the levers of power for far more years than Democrats, there would still be liberal and illiberal positions on many other political and social issues.

    Personally, I am liberal on some issues and conservative on others, as I suspect many people are.

  • bliffle

    David Black reveals the reason for his poor argumentation:

    “A person is judged by the company they keep, at least in the world I live in.”

    A mistake in judgement: Judas kept excellent company.

  • Cannonshop

    #39 I don’t know, Bliffle, I suppose the Pharisees and the Zealots were a bit more… respectable, and a Governor from the dominating empire certainly more prestigious than a guy who walked around with his drinking buddies preaching peace while MY ancestors painted themselves blue and scared the everloving dogshit out of that same empire. It can be typically said, however, that even among the best company, there is one or two that, for whatever personal reasons, will turn traitor if the price offered is right. The question of who that might be is one for speculation, but there are four corrupting forces that seem to work consistently.

    Money
    Ideology
    Conscience
    Ego.

    Any one of those, any combination of those, and all of those can be used to turn most people. Make someone slip on any of those (usually by the first one-money) and if you document it right, you own them, they become pliable or destructable, depending on what you’re after, and how they’ve positioned themselves publicly.

    I count three on Obama- Money, Ideology, and Ego, and ONE on McCain- Money, and its hold is pretty weak, two if he’s more egotistical than he pretends to be, or starts believing his own press.

    Here’s the most “surface” ones I’ve counted up on Obama:

    Money: Rezko, Fannie-Mae, George Soros, Daly
    Ideology: Ayers, Wright, Pfleger, ACORN, Daly, and there’s the whole Thing about Hamas, Chavez, and Ahmadenijad liking him. When the enemy likes a politician-especially a Chicago Politician, that should probably set off some crash-alarms.

    Ego:… oy, come on, read his speeches. The “United States of Obama” seal? Big, styrofoam columns and a stadium for his acceptance speech? the grandstanding in Germany, but he wouldn’t visit wounded troops in the hospital because they wouldn’t let him take his press people with him? Then, there’s the whole trying to get the DOJ to witch-hunt his critics for him.

    Likely avenues of Corruption: Obama’s got so many, it’s hard to pick a primary direction, but based on the thumbnail list, I choose… Ideology. When Hugo Chavez and Ahmadenijad think you’re a nifty guy, and the surrender-monkeys of the European Union think you’re going to play THEIR ballgame, AND you’re thoroughly connected into the Daly Machine in Chicago, Ideology slips Just past Money or Ego. That’s not even counting associations with guys like Bill Ayers and Jerry Wright. (one might suppose MISTER Obama slept through Jeremiah Wright’s sermons for twenty years-which would indicate either a hearing difficulty as the man is loud in the manner of a Charismatic preacher, or a very good set of earplugs not noticed by his wife or the other parishioners, AND three years working on the Annenberg challenge with Bill Ayers, plus starting one’s political career in mister Ayers’ house COULD just be coincidences…)
    Ideology is the most likely candidate for corrupting Barack Obama. Second most likely being Ego, with Money a third (after all, he’s only a Single-digit Millionaire, and the finoodling of state finances to get his wife a pay-raise and promotion could be coincidental as well…)

    McCain:
    Money: EADS, some former CorproRAT scumbags from Fannie Mae, some Lobbyist scum from Northrup-Grumman. Notably, no felons. (I don’t include the Keating business because even the Democrat in charge of the inquiry admitted McCain was included to “balance the ticket” on the charges as a token republican until he was cleared. False accusations directed against one do not constitute a vulnerability), his Wife’s houses-(big deal, he’s rich. Name a Senator that isn’t at LEAST a millionaire or related/married to one).

    (possible) EGO: Hmmm… um… “I was a POW.” (oh goodness, I need to go to Dailykos or someone to find some really juicy charges here…)

    For shits and giggles (and to balance the tickets, as they say) we’ll add Palin…

    Ideology: Doesn’t like Gay Marraige (vetoed a bill blocking benefits for Gay domestic partners), doesn’t like Abortion (okay? half the country doesn’t like Abortion, so what?), Accusations of Book-Banning (didn’t happen. The list either implies after-the-fact false accusation, or Significant Precognitive ability-I don’t believe in psychic powers, so…) Pregnant teenage daughter. (gee, what a scandal…yawn).
    Addressed the AIP convention one year in Alaska (AIP-Alaskan Independence Party)-okay, so? she hasn’t denied it, and in Alaska, they’re legal.

    Ego: Troopergate (Honestly, now, what would you do to a State cop who drives his cruiser while drunk, tasers a ten year old under his care, threatens his wife with a gun, and may well be a beater? All but the “may well be a beater” is documented, the guy still has his job, but his boss was fired for not firing him… strikes me as almost supernatural self-control, and a fair realistic view of how bent cops manage to grow-lack of action by their superiors. In the same situation, I suspect most of the posters here, Liberal or Democrat, would have taken far more… extensive… measures.) Had the gall to go after senior members of her own party for taking bribes and being unethical. (Hey, it TAKES a massive ego to do that-you GOTS to think you’re bulletproof teflon to pull it off. Humility doesn’t serve as a virtue in battle against entrenched and powerful foes), and accepted the offer to run for vice president with only a few years’ experience in big-league politics, and it takes a certain amount of arrogance to not fold under the shitstorm of attacks launched since she was announced, too.

    Most likely avenue of corrupting Sarah Palin: Ego or Ideology, though her actions on the Ideology front indicate a more pragmatic view, all that would really be necessary is to have the press go all good-doggie for her (which ain’t going to happen. Luckily, she’s the sort that most Journos despise on sight with the kind of irrational hatred you normally see reserved for guys named “Bush”.) As long as the Press and the Opposition remain loudly hostile, Palin will likely remain about as ‘honest’ as any politician CAN remain with regards to her office. AS this is the right-and-proper relationship (that is, the opposition party should be…the Opposition and a watchdog to limit power and expose misdemeanours and crimes, ditto for the Press. No Politician, whether running, or in office, should be given a ‘pass’.)

    The second path I see is also tied to Ego-that is, the natural corrupting influence of the lickspittles that inhabit the Beltway, and the major parties. Bootlickers and office-seekers, combined with Lobbyists and their shiny offers have proven the failure of more than one politician on the national stage. When too many people are sucking up to you, you tend to lose perspective, and start believing your speechwriters and brown-nosing subordinates over less flattering sources. I believe this may have infected Bush2, but have little proof of it beyond basic suspicions.

    Tertiary is Ideology-this presupposes that she actually winds up in the White House with a friendly (or pliable) congress at a time when she is able to appoint SCOTUS judges, and isn’t legally able to run for re-election. It also assumes there are not more pressing matters that require more immediate attention (such as a war, major national financial crisis/Depression, international incident, protests outside the white house, rampant corruption in her own party, or other crisis that requires her to wear the ‘pragmatic’ hat.) SHOULD she wind up President, the prescription for limiting damage is just to keep her too busy with more important matters to even consider what her pastors may think. Again, an opposition congress, and Media hostility work well here (after all, it worked on Reagan, and MIGHT have worked on Bush had the Dems not seen a hot=and=juicy opportunity in the Patriot Act.)

  • http://meetdavidblack.blogspot.com David Black

    bliffle: so you have to to cite a character from an ancient book of Hebrew folk tales to refute my statement?

    That’s rich.

  • http://meetdavidblack.blogspot.com David Black

    Christopher Rose wrote: “There are many reasons for liberals to exist, including to oppose the clearly hateful ideas you are supporting.”

    I know there are and they all connect to one basic thing … po’ and dependent underclasses with no power. When they go crawling to a lib who has it, they’ll trade a vote to dip their bread in some of that gravy.

    What a pity that you have to deem honesty and clarity as “hateful, but that’s what libs do when one impugns their holy mission on behalf of society’s bottom feeders or if one’s heart doesn’t bleed as profusely as theirs.

    “Apparently you despise about half the entire US population.”

    Apparently so, if indeed half the US population are libs.

    There’s no reason to have to like everyone. Certainly a great number of libs despise conservatives and Republicans, so what’s the problem here?

    Libs have to grow some thicker skins.

    Another dirty little secret is that the moment that the po’ minority underclasses stop playing the stooge for libs and learn self-reliance, they eventually pull themselves out of whatever muck they were mired in from the beginning.

    Libs perpetuate the poverty cycle.

    Hundreds of billions in taxpayer money has been spent since the Civil Right Act of 1964 and guess what, poverty and crime among minorities still exist.

    The number of minorities (primarily black males) per capita in prisons is alarming.

    What is the stat, one out of four black kids have no father at home?

    Wow, that’s some ringing endorsement for that grand lib social engineering project.

    When does America start seeing a return on that investment?

    45 years and counting!

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Cannon…. Please stop with the surrender monkey bullshit…. just because they chose not to engage with us in the Iraq “war?”

    And the rest of your argument for and against the Dems and Repubs can be as easily dismantled….

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    David, I hope your kidding about the whole Levi Strauss thing, yes? You simply cannot be that ignorant.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    David, how sad your life is. Honesty and and clarity are not an anathema to getting along with people. Can you even be in the same room with someone who does not share your particular brand of “honesty and clarity?”

    What I see is hatefulness and excrutiating ill will toward many of your fellow men and women.

  • http://meetdavidblack.blogspot.com David Black

    By the way. Christopher Rose, I am 62 years old. I grew up in the golden era of the 1950s then witnessed this nation’s decline starting in the 1960s when the counterculture and their Marxist quislings began tearing down every institution that made this country great.

    While my peers were drugging and fornicating themselves into oblivion, I was working hard and trying to make something of myself. I was taught to respect authority and our leaders, so I never called a cop a “pig” or threw bottles at National Guardsmen trying to do their job of restoring order.

  • Zedd

    David Black,

    You watched the world decline for who? Women? Blacks? Hispanics? Asians?

    Perhaps you now see why your perspective is considered to be rather confined.

  • http://meetdavidblack.blogspot.com David Black

    “Can you even be in the same room with someone who does not share your particular brand of “honesty and clarity?”

    Truthfully, no. I gave up trying long ago. I believe I have the freedom to keep whatever company I choose, do I not?

  • http://meetdavidblack.blogspot.com David Black

    “You watched the world decline for who? Women? Blacks? Hispanics? Asians?”

    Foolish attempts at social engineering with tax payer dollars in the form of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 has created as much crime and poverty among the minority underclasses as before. Nearly half of the US prison population is comprised of black males. One out of four black kids have no father at home.

    This was not the case prior to 1964.

    All this after hundreds of billions of dollars spent after 45 years.

    When does America start seeing a return on that investment?

    I’d say it was money invested in losing stock. That’s my opinion.

  • Robert K Blechman

    I appreciate all the comments and only wish that I were paid by the word for the responses my article generates. Hell, I wish I was paid anything at all so that I could devote the time to write more clearly and at greater length. However, one thing about the comments strikes me as unusual.

    I once read a science fiction story where the techniques of brain washing had achieved such perfection that people could be conditioned not to thing about certain topics. Every time a forbidden topic inadvertantly came up, a person would suddenly find himself out in the garden digging weeds, or taking a long walk in the park. It was a type of “thought aversion.” I can’t remember the story that contained this idea, but if it comes back to me, I’ll post it here.

    I know that comment sections are an unstructured free for all, but this one is interesting in how it has avoided, for the most part, the original topic of my article, that is, the way women are used in many cultures, past and present, as objects for exchange, and how a certain percentage of modern American voters are perfectly fine with that. In fact many of them are energized when the idea is brought to the foreground, as in the case of McCain selecting Palin as his running mate.

    My article isn’t about liberals or conservatives, nor is it about our country’s sad racial history nor crime statistics nor who makes the best blue jeans. It is about a topic which, while potent, we prefer to leave unspoken. This itself speaks volumes.

    I can understand why David Black thinks that quoting various scholars is an intellectual crutch. Given limitations of space and time, my use of such quotes is actually a kind of shorthand, letting those who are familiar with my references make associations that I don’t have time in the posting to make. This can exclude others, and for that I apologize. But it is also a way of saying that my ideas are built upon the foundation of the work of others far more intelligent than I, and that there is value in knowing what they said. I heartily recommend reading Levi-Strauss, although I wouldn’t suggest starting with his “Mythologiques.” Also, Neil Postman is always enlightening, if perhaps a bit dated now, and I bet Mr. Black would find that he and Dr. Postman actually agree on many topics. I would start with his book about the way television degrades our political discourse, “Amusing Ourselves to Death.”

    Thank you all for your comments, and if you ever do feel like sending in a little something to promote further discussions, I’m not proud.

  • http://meetdavidblack.blogspot.com David Black

    “David, I hope your kidding about the whole Levi Strauss thing, yes? ”

    Well of course, how could I resist with a name like that?

    I know Levi-Strauss from his Marxist associations at the old New School for Social Research and at Columbia University, two hotbeds of Marxist sympathies if there ever were ones.

    His egalitarian belief in cultural non-superiority makes him and his work laughable to me. Sorry, a culture that forges in the earth with sticks and stones is inferior to one that uses computers. That’s common sense.

  • http://meetdavidblack.blogspot.com David Black

    Well, Robert, for starters, I have a problem with holding up a person with Marxist associations as a model of intellectual credibility.

    Clearly Levi-Strauss’s egalitarian belief in a classless cultural equity has Marxist undertones to it.

    Too many misguided intellectuals embraced Marxism starting in the 1930s and sadly, many of them ended up on university facultiies starting in the 50s and 60s. Even today, their most vile adepts infest many university faculties, still clinging to their outdated counterculture mores and whimsy about “revolution.”

    Does not Martin Luther Kennedy (Barry O.) represent a symbol as well?

    Libs certainly aren’t responding to him because of his vast experience and knowledge of the world.

    They are voting for him because they see a means to assuage their guilt over slavery, plus the fact that he’s not threatening in a baggy pants hip hop thug kind of way.

    He’s also skillfully chanelled the lib’s most beloved 60s icons, hence the name I have given him.

    The funniest part about his candidacy is that Barry O. isn’t technically black. A person is defined racially through their mother’s side.

    Barry O.’s mother is, as we all know, white.

    So he’s using his half black lineage as leverage to access the Dem party power base who lines up like lemmings before any reasonably articulate and good looking minority candidate.

    Sorry, Robert, the symbolism behind the MLK candidacy is even more striking and bizarre.

  • http://intersportswire.com alessandro

    #13 – Thanks for that Dan. A great read and one in which, along with you, I concur.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    David, I hope you have a wife who stays home and cooks for you in high heels and says Yes, honey, to whatever you say.

    I hope all the black people you come in contact with cast their eyes down and greet you with Yassuh, Mastuh David.

    I hope your children grew up to be the kind of accountants who boogered the numbers at Lehman Brothers and took home enough funny money to eventually keep you in the nursing home where you can rail at the rest of the old men (and I hope they remember to take out their hearing aids before you wheel yourself down the hall.)

    Life moves on, kiddo; the 50s were certainly not all fun and games, just because some black kids had their daddies at home and no one talked back to you and professors professed one mode of thought you happened to agree with.

    I suggest you be sure and take your blood pressure pills today and every day, learn to meditate a half hour each morning and stop “entertaining” us with your screeds about liberal guilt and PLEASE stop telling me and other people who write for this site what is really in our minds, as though what we say is not what we mean.

    I refuse to defend myself to you or anyone else. But more importantly I won’t let you beat your chest about your superiority as a WHITE MALE just because your race and gender has managed to grab power for the past umpteen years and you think that makes you better. I can’t imagine anyone on this list with half a brain (and I happen to have one in its entirety) enjoys being lorded over, insulted, and second guessed, which is all I see from you with every post.

    Since you only hang out with the like-minded, what on earth are you doing wasting your time with the likes of a diverse group like us?

  • http://meetdavidblack.blogspot.com David Black

    Liberals and liberalism beg to be ridiculed.

    My wife Tirzah is an attorney and an IDF veteran. She’s tough as nails and is even more conservative than I am.

    We were both raised by no-nonsense and very conservative immigrant Jewish families who raised their children the old world way of absolute discipline and personal accountability.

    Both of our families lost relatives in the Holocaust.

    My wife and I don’t have the inclination or the patience to contend with freaks, malcontents, radicals, dissidents, progressives, liberals, collectivists, peaceniks, tree huggers, bleeding hearts, and anyone that doesn’t view life as a zero sum gain.

    We live for our own sake and the sake of our own flesh and blood. Everyone else can go f- themselves as far as we’re concerned.

    No one seemed to give a sh– about our relatives when they were being starved and worked to death in the concentration camps.

    We’ve both witnessed death and destruction caused by Islmo-fascist terrorists on Israeli soil, so we know what score is in this world.

    Being a resident of NYC, I still vividly remember 9/11/01 as if it was yesterday.

    These lessons and the reality of their aftermath make most of what others deem important rather trivial in comparison.

    Besdies, if you libs really cared about women’s rights and equitable treatment, you’d be on the front lines taking up arms against Islam and condemning their treatment of their own women.

    But you won’t, because libs are cowards when it comes to confronting Islam, the so-called “religion of peace.”

    That’s fact.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Why your selfish b——–. I know tons of actual holocaust survivors who don’t think like you do, never mind just relatives of them. My family survived the pogroms AND I lost family in the holocaust and still, we don’t only think of ourselves or put ourselves first.

    If you were so considered about Islamofacism as you call it, you would leave the U.S., make aliyah and join the Likud party and fight to the death for Israel’s right to bomb whomever they pleased (which is not my particular point of view).

    Isn’t it easy to sit in the U.S. and spew your venom, in a free country where you can do so? Isn’t it easy to sit back and just spread hate at will? Why aren’t you on the front lines?

  • Jordan Richardson

    But you won’t, because libs are cowards when it comes to confronting Islam, the so-called “religion of peace.”

    And Republicans are woefully ignorant when it comes to understanding Islam. Islam does not need to be confronted. Terrorism does. They are not synonymous.

    But you knew that, right?

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Right. ALL Muslims are evil. Hmmmmm, I once knew of a man who felt that way about the Jews. He almost got rid of us, too. Actually, that has happened several times in history.

    Thanks, Jordan, for once again pointing out the effing obvious, sigh.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Daniel Miller

    Lisa,

    I was rather hoping for a response to Mr. Black’s comment,

    if you libs really cared about women’s rights and equitable treatment, you’d be on the front lines taking up arms against Islam and condemning their treatment of their own women.

    I have often wondered about the “liberal,” “feminist” view on such matters, and was hoping to hear from you or perhaps someone else. I of course don’t expect anyone to take up arms, but a hint of disapproval would be refreshing. Let’s leave aside foreign countries, in which we perhaps should not interfere. Are “honor killings” of raped women, or even those who (gasp) commit adultery, OK in the United States? Seems rather uncivilized to me, but then so many things do.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    DB is the epitome of the kind of person against whom the civil rights and youth movements in the 50s and 60s were begun. What a narrow, wretched, condescending, arid and hateful life view he, and apparently his wife, have. Although apparently not of the small town midwest these New Yorkers have come to be what Obama aptly described as “bitter” – “clinging to guns and religion.” They look upon everyone not in harmony with their mindset as “scum” and “hoards,” etc. They have no art. Rather, they simply bundle any and everyone with whom they disagree into one big lump of humanity. It is just that mindset that may one day lead us to another holacaust, perhaps, of even more epic proportions.

    Dan. Do you imagine that American feminists and their sympathisers aren’t horrified by the treatment of women in many Islamic states? Do you suppose that they/we are unaware of the similar treatment of women found in Kurdish, Hindu and even radical christian societies among others? Hell, just sit down with a southern baptist. These situations are hardly overlooked or in any way found acceptable. While there have been a number of efforts made to institute change for women in such societies, the reach of outsiders is limited and many of those women live in such fear that they dare not reveal any dissension against the status quo.

    I will no longer engage Mr. Black in any “discussions” in that it amounts to nothing. He obviously lives in his own little world where he seems to be quite bitterly happy with himself. I’m not sure that he doesn’t live on another planet, and I can’t help wishing that he did.

    B

  • http://meetdavidblack.blogspot.com David Black

    Let’s see, the “religion of peace” has a majority faction of moderates who are too cowardly to mount a counter-jihad to stop their fundamentalist minority from torturing and murdering in the name of Allah.

    Comparing this to Hitler’s treatment of Jews is laughable.

    The Jews were legal citizens in their respective countries and committed NO violent acts of terror against people of other religions to warrant revenge.

    The European Jews in the 1930s weren’t flying planes into buildings and murdering thousands, were they?

    The European Jews in the 1930s weren’t kidnapping people of other religions and beheading them in public, were they?

    I also don’t recall of any European Jews in the 1930s raping and murdering school children in Russia and Indonesia, do you?

    Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but did European Jews in the 1930s start a holy war and declare that anyone who didn’t pledge their allegiance to God would be beheaded?

    I also didn’t read in history where every day, rabbis were telling their congregations that people of other religions were descendents of pigs?

    The truth is there was no justification for Hitler to kill Jews. They didn’t do anything wrong.

    But islam does LOTS of things wrong that only warrants violent revenge.

    Talk to any Israeli living near Gaza who STILL suffers from rocket fire from the very same Pally creeps who were just given back that land!

    So how about that Islamic so-called “religion of peace”?

    Seems to be that any Muslim not making an effort to publicly denounce fundamentalist terror is just as guilty as the terrorists.

    Let me remind everyone that when Christian fundies were blowing up abortion clinics, US law enforcement tracked them down and arrested them all. These creeps were prosecuted and jailed for life.

    Such a thing doesn’t happen in the Muslim world, does it?

    Where are the moderate faction tribunals prosecuting the fundamentalists for their crimes?

    “Religion of peace” my ass. This is why you libs disgust me with your cowardice. You only attack religions you know won’t possibly kill you in retribution.

    You just make excuses for them, just like you do for the black males currently clogging our judicial system.

  • Cindy D

    Sorry Jordan,

    Black is too full of sweeping generalizations to actually know anything.

    Dan,

    Are “honor killings” of raped women, or even those who (gasp) commit adultery, OK in the United States?

    You mean is that okay as far as American feminists or liberal American women are concerned? Of course not.

    Subjugation of and brutality against women (or anyone else) is abhorrent.

    One thing to remember, when you are talking about Islamists, you are talking about women. It isn’t Islamists vs women as David Black suggests.

    The best thing I can advise is to visit some site that pertains to Islamic Feminism. You can get their take on Islam for yourself. Apparently, some feel that it isn’t Islamic teaching that causes the problem.

    Personally, I’m no fan of what other people imagine to be reality. But, they have the right to their beliefs. If subjugating others are part and parcel of those beliefs then I would be opposed.

  • Clavos

    Do you imagine that American feminists and their sympathisers aren’t horrified by the treatment of women in many Islamic states?

    Hard to tell. They don’t speak out. They don’t demonstrate. They don’t, in fact, seem to be doing anything about it.

  • Cindy D

    Even the male ones apparently.

  • Clavos

    “Feminist” is not a gender-specific term…

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    So Clav,

    You believe that feminists support radical muslim treatment of women? What do you actually know of what various feminist groups are or have been doing in this regard? Is this something you follow? Do they have to come marching up to your boat waving signs and shaking their fists to get your attention?

    B

  • Clavos

    You believe that feminists support radical muslim treatment of women?

    Strange, B-tone. I’ve never seen stupidity from you before. Where did I say that feminists support muslim mistreatment of women?

    What I did say is that there’s little public evidence of any concerted efforts on the part of american feminists to fight muslim female discrimination.

    That’s a far cry from supporting it.

    And notice I didn’t say “radical” muslim mistreatment of women. Their attitudes toward women are a lot more widespread than merely the “radical” half of muslims. Honor killings, for example, are even happening in places like the uk and germany and even here in the usa.

    Where is the outcry? Where is the rage? Where are the articles and public statements denouncing these and other atrocities committed all over the world against muslim women by their own family members?

    Why don’t we hear from NOW?

    Wikipedia list 108 feminist NGOs. Where are their voices?

    Strangely silent.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Without giving David Black’s ludicrous comments too much credibility, here is a Muslim group against honour killings.

    Here is a fairly progressive Islamic publication ‘zine that also protests and aims to stop honour killings.

    And finally, here is a group consisting of Muslims and Arabs that support the State of Israel.

    David Black’s comments, ridiculous and insensitively off-kilter as they are, remain compelling examples of the ignorance many Americans and Westerners have towards the religion of Islam. The Romney-esque way in which he uses the term jihad is silly enough, but his assertion that Islam should “stand up and condemn terrorism” is both shrouded in ignorance of the countless Islamic groups that have and shrouded in the ignorance of the actual structure of the religion. Again, there is no “top banana” for Muslims; no one group is going to deliver a statement against the fatwahs and the terror attacks because there is no one group.

    The idea that several individual groups have, countless mullahs and leading Islamic scholars, and the fact that Islamic governments (the Islamic Conference of Foreign Ministers comes to mind, with the Kuala Lumpur Declaration on International Terrorism) denounced the 9/11 attacks and subsequent terror attacks ought to remind us that the Islamic world cannot and should not be simply and ignorantly equated with terrorism.

    Stop spreading hate!

  • Cannonshop

    #67
    Baritone, a Liberal Prof at the local community college once told me that “Silence implies consent” (this was in relation to a discussion about the anti-war movement, which at the time was opposing the action in Afghanistan). American Feminists aren’t ignorant (or at least, they claim not to be), yet they are silent. Applying said prof’s standard, then, what am I to infer? What’s Clavos to infer? If it’s not active support, then it’s apathy, isn’t it?

    So the real question might be whether that Apathy is driven by bigotry-in-disguise. After all, apparently it’s okay for Muhammed Jihadi to get his little girl’s genitals mutilated (“Female Circumcision”, and it’s fucking horrible), or kill her if she’s raped (Honor Killings), but it’s not okay to make the doctors tell little susie christian’s parents that she’s getting an abortion, right?

    To me, there’s a not-so-small issue of consistency in standards here. I think some screaming fights and maybe a call to CPS if it gets really bad are a tiny bit less significant than mutilation and ritually sanctioned murder. Call me strange…

  • Franco

    Wow, well said Clavos and Cannonshop

    The thing I’m wondering about is that seeing that Dan’s questions was directed specifically to women feminists is in this thread. When was Baritone made official spokeswoman (unless of course he’s a she) for feminists, and apparently as both of you point out, a bad one at that.

    And then what’s with Jordan Richardson taking on the official spokemanship for Muslims (unless of course he is a Muslim) and trying to tell us some subterfuge about all the different groups and no one can speak for anyone else. Well if that’s true, what the hell is he doing speaking FOR them. He never points out that most groups, (and I know I am using the word “most”), when speaking of denouncing terrorist attracts they do so carefully in saying “we denounce killing of innocent people”. So the question really is, what is an “innocent person” to most of these Muslim groups? I believer the answer to that question will clear a lot of this up, and I believer it is an answer that Jordon will find too distrubing to except.

    What is with these liberals Baritone and Jordan Richardson? As much as they are not going to like this pointed out, they are proving Dave Black right when he says, “Liberals and liberalism beg to be ridiculed”.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Franco, your attempts to play an honest broker whilst actually being incredibly ideologically loaded are entirely unpersuasive.

    Ganging up with someone as aggressive and hateful (by their own admission, not my interpretation) as David Black pretty much removes any semblance of credibility from your words.

    You appear to be one of these people who is bogged down in some odd little “we are right, you are wrong” argument rather than actually looking for inclusive solutions to real problems.

  • Cindy D

    …they are proving Dave Black right…

    Franco,

    By Black’s logic (in another thread) as long as they have all the power, wealth and influence, those who abuse and destroy people are superior.
    I mean, it’s “science”.

  • Cannonshop

    Black’s logic is only surface deep. I almost wonder if he’s not an operative for the other side, since he chooses the most aggressive tone he can find to promulgate ideas that failed more than fifty years ago-including ethnic/genetic superiority.

  • bliffle

    Ah, at last! All is clear to us now. Thank you cannon.

    Dave Black is exposed as an agent provocateur, sent by The Libs to bring scorn and ridicule down on innocent conservatives!

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Dan, you don’t read nearly enough. There have been dozens and dozens of articles in Marie Claire, The Nation, and many other magazines condemning such things as honor killings.

  • Jordan Richardson

    So the question really is, what is an “innocent person” to most of these Muslim groups?

    These “Muslim groups” have telephone numbers and email addresses. Why don’t you ask them, Franco?

    what’s with Jordan Richardson taking on the official spokemanship for Muslims

    what the hell is he doing speaking FOR them

    I’ve studied Islam for a number of years, I have many Muslim friends, and my best friend is a professor of World Religions. It tends to be a subject I am in touch with quite often, so when I see such bold and unapologetic ignorance, I tend to speak up.

    As for speaking FOR them, I haven’t done that. I’m merely answering the ludicrous charges laid by an obviously ignorant individual. I refuse to join America’s culture of hate as predicated by mindless and gutless individuals like David Black and those like him.

    What is with these liberals Baritone and Jordan Richardson?

    I’m getting really tired of being branded. I believe in fairness, justice, and compassion for. If that makes me a liberal under your bizarre but seemingly necessary world of labels, so be it. Under those rules you (Franco) have, I guess it’s a terrible thing to be a conservative and I’m glad I’m not one. Whatever you say, cowboy.

    “Liberals and liberalism beg to be ridiculed”.

    Everything deserves to be ridiculed.

  • Cannonshop

    Bliffle, I’m ONLY speculating, because the guy’s too nuts, in my opinion, to be real. Ideas of Eugenics of the sort he’s basing his arguments on were proven not to work more than fifty years ago. Social Darwinism doesn’t mesh with a functioning society, it’s like Lassaiz’-faire capitalism-a utopian idea that has a very, very, limited lifespan in the light of reality for anyone with two eyes and a half a brain or more.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    See this, for those uninterested in facts:)

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Clav,

    No, you didn’t say “feminists support muslim mistreatment of women..,” but that was the logical inference.

    I don’t believe I announced that I was an “official” anything. You all appear to have taken on that mantle yourselves. Do you presume that voicing your opinions is okeedookee, but voicing opposing views is not?

    I wish some women would in fact speak up, but this is largely a man’s club. That none of the few women who post here have chosen to take on this matter is unfortunate.

    BTW – If all you guys are so outraged, why the fuck don’t YOU speak up? Oh, that’s right – it’s a “girly” thing. Real men don’t stand up and fight a woman’s fight.

    B

  • Cannonshop

    Good challenge, Baritone. Where do I sign up?

  • cuervodeluna

    Since everybody jumped on the I’m older than you bandwagon, please be advised that I will be 64 (if I make it) at the end of November.

    I do not believe that the word “liberal” or its asinine abbreviation “lib” has any meaning whatsoever.

    I have travelled a fair chunk of this planet, and the most racist folks I have seen or met are gringos.

    Now, how about those commies in the White House?

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Cannon,

    Isn’t it obvious? Just walk in to your nearest “Feminazi” chapter and volunteer.

    B

  • Clavos

    No, you didn’t say “feminists support muslim mistreatment of women..,” but that was the logical inference.

    No it isn’t. Lack of protest doesn’t imply active support.

    I don’t believe I announced that I was an “official” anything.

    And I didn’t say (or imply) you did. Kindly don’t mix me up with other commenters.

    BTW – If all you guys are so outraged, why the fuck don’t YOU speak up?

    I didn’t express outrage, merely observed that there appeared to be a lack of outrage on the part of american feminists, who presumably DO care.

    You’re getting a bit testy lately, B-tone.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Clav,

    I took what you wrote to infer as I described. Apparently the inference is up for grabs.

    I do apologize in that I meant to redirect my other comments toward others commenting on this thread, but in my haste, forgot.

    Yeah, I suppose I am a bit testy. After allowing myself to be dragged into Black’s particular hell pit, I guess I’m just trying to shake off the slime.:-/

    B

  • Clavos

    It’s OK, B-tone. Obviously, I can’t control what you infer from what I wrote, but I assure you I was not implying that American feminists support muslim mistreatment.

    I’ll still respect you in the morning. :>)

  • http://meetdavidblack.blogspot.com David Black

    Dear Libs:

    I prefer my own “hell pit” to yours made of phony altruism that’s only offered to make yourselves “feel” good and look good in front of your lib pals. Libs are biggest phonies alive.

    As long as you “feel” good about yourselves, that’s all that matters, right? Your self-esteem is paramount, right, you mopey and spoiled children of Dr. Spock?

    You sit on your thumbs and verbally denounce REAL injustices from the comfort of your own unthreatened lives. You only attack targets that don’t bite back. You talk talk talk and are afraid to take any action that doesn’t harbor that bilious shade of gray you so desperately adore. Meanwhile Islamo-fascists kill more people while you hand wring and prevaricate over the “nature of evil” and why those po’ Muslim extremists hate us so!

  • http://meetdavidblack.blogspot.com David Black

    “Stop spreading hate!”

    So Jordan Richardson, tell me how verbally denouncing terrorism is going to stop the medieval savages perpetrating it?

  • http://meetdavidblack.blogspot.com David Black

    “See this, for those uninterested in facts:)”

    What’s the difference, Lisa, you Martin Luther Kennedy groupies still love a guy who has a pastor who hates white people and is friends with a confessed domestic terrorist.

    But that hate is justified, right, Lisa, because libs love to wallow in guilt for things they had nothing to do with.

  • Jordan Richardson

    So Jordan Richardson, tell me how verbally denouncing terrorism is going to stop the medieval savages perpetrating it?

    Maybe a Religious Cleansing is in order, then? Seriously. What are your solutions, “sir?”

    And I think the net you cast in terms of “medieval savages” ought to spread to those whose ideologies match the Dark Ages as accurately as, if not more accurately than, the “Muslims” you so deftly characterize.

    While you’re here posturing and criticizing with the angered vehemence of an impotent old toad, how do you purport to lead individuals to action? Your entire #86, breathlessly dedicated to “libs” as though you haven’t yet stopped your internal ideological War of Terms and grown the hell up like the rest of us, is as hollow as humanly possible.

    You sit on your thumbs and verbally denounce REAL injustices from the comfort of your own unthreatened lives.

    And what do you do?

    You only attack targets that don’t bite back.

    And what do you do?

    You talk talk talk and are afraid to take any action that doesn’t harbor that bilious shade of gray you so desperately adore.

    And what do you do?

    Seriously, Mr. Black. What do you do? Perhaps when you tell us what it is you do, we can have you locked up from the sensible people and get on with the business of actually working together to repair the damage done by those who exist in intellectual wastelands of hate such as yourself.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    The idea that several individual groups have, countless mullahs and leading Islamic scholars, and the fact that Islamic governments (the Islamic Conference of Foreign Ministers comes to mind, with the Kuala Lumpur Declaration on International Terrorism) denounced the 9/11 attacks and subsequent terror attacks ought to remind us that the Islamic world cannot and should not be simply and ignorantly equated with terrorism.

    You’re wrong, Jordan. And I say this as someone who grew up among muslims and is generally as pro-muslim as one can reasonably be. The truth is that no matter how much you want to pretend that everyone shares the same values deep down inside, Islam and especially Arab culture are fundamentally different. The Koran, their laws, their culture and their traditions are accepting of the ideas of slavery, mistreatment of women and holy war. If you actually sit down and have a chat with one of those laudable moderate muslim scholars, ask him flat out whether honor killings, slavery and jihad are acceptable under muslim law. Don’t let him weasel out by saying that he doesn’t believe in those things or that many moderate muslims don’t practice such barbarities, ask him if the law, which has as great a standing in Islam as in any society on earth, countenances them. You won’t like the answer.

    Baritone, a Liberal Prof at the local community college once told me that “Silence implies consent” (this was in relation to a discussion about the anti-war movement, which at the time was opposing the action in Afghanistan). American Feminists aren’t ignorant (or at least, they claim not to be), yet they are silent. Applying said prof’s standard, then, what am I to infer? What’s Clavos to infer? If it’s not active support, then it’s apathy, isn’t it?

    All that it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to stand by and do nothing.

    So the real question might be whether that Apathy is driven by bigotry-in-disguise. After all, apparently it’s okay for Muhammed Jihadi to get his little girl’s genitals mutilated (“Female Circumcision”, and it’s fucking horrible), or kill her if she’s raped (Honor Killings), but it’s not okay to make the doctors tell little susie christian’s parents that she’s getting an abortion, right?

    I find it mindboggling that the freedom-loving west, of which the US is in many ways the most liberated nation, cannot just apply the same standard across the board. We should be just as outraged about the intolerance of Christian fundamentalists as we are about the intolerance of Islamic mullahs. We should be just as angry at those who force women to live in seclusion as we are at those who underpay women for the same jobs men do. We should be just as unaccpting of those who bomb abortion clinics as we are of those who bomb busses in Israel.

    There’s no justification for the kind of double standard which is practiced by both the left and the right in America.

    Dave

  • Jordan Richardson

    Dave, you’re wrong, actually. I have chatted and learned from Muslim scholars and teachers, read the Qur’an (and do frequently), and have studied both “liberal” and “conservative” Islamic scholarship.

    The Koran, their laws, their culture and their traditions are accepting of the ideas of slavery, mistreatment of women and holy war.

    Slavery was cultural at the time. The Bible is “accepting of slavery” in the same respect, yet Qur’anic and Biblical teachings bring up principles for slaves and advocate fair treatment, where as the cultural backdrop of the times did not.

    Also, the Qur’an advocated the ability for a Muslim woman to get a divorce and to properly claim her inheritance, among other rights. The Arabic culture in the time before the Qur’an simply didn’t advocate these rights for women.

    In terms of holy war, I can say that there are a few verses in the Qur’an that advocate defending Islamic property and standing up for those who oppress Muslims and Islamic belief. In a time of great oppression, slavery, and the like, the type of literature contained in the Qur’an was not uncommon amongst the oppressed people.

    Modern Islamic scholars typically recognize the context of the teachings of the Qur’an, whereas you fail to do so. You may have “grown up around Muslims,” (seems this is Personal Anecdote Day around here) but your scholarship could use a little work as usual.

  • bliffle

    This whole anti-muslim thread is a smokescreen by Dave and his weeping buddies to try to cover the fact that their Great Titanic Ship Unfettered Capitalism has gone on the rocks and all aboard are feared loss.

    Abandon Ship!

  • cuervodeluna

    bliffle is right.

    Besides, I am the only person posting here who has spent a fair amount of time in the Middle East recently and I believe that most of the terrorists are the gringos and israelis.

    They are, after all, terrorists with nuclear weapons–and the US has used them.

  • Franco

    #71 — Christopher Rose

    “Franco, your attempts to play an honest broker whilst actually being incredibly ideologically loaded are entirely unpersuasive.”

    Christopher, your attempts to play an honest broker (void of ideology) is not only a pretense of virtue, it is in and of itself an incredibly selfish ideology. Just because I have found the opposite of yours, and live it, and you try and deny yours exists, and live it, does not constitute mine as unpersuasive. In fact, it’s the other way around.

    “Ganging up with someone as aggressive and hateful (by their own admission, not my interpretation) as David Black pretty much removes any semblance of credibility from your words.”

    “Ganging upup with someone as aggressive and hateful!” How is that statement void of a precept in loaded ideology?. And let’s get the facts straight here. I never ganged up at all with Dave Black, nor have I agreed with what Dave Black said about anything other then his one statement about liberals and I used it in that singular conctes alone.

    You know full well in what context I sighted it, and apparently it struck a nerve to the point that you felt the need to try and (1) ad hominem attack me with the fallacy of quilt by association, and (2) it wasn’t even addressed to you. Talk about over plying a bad hand of ideology denial. How is it that your lame attempt at defending the two others whose ideologies are involved dose not speaks volumes of your own.

    “You appear to be one of these people who is bogged down in some odd little “we are right, you are wrong” argument rather than actually looking for inclusive solutions to real problems.”

    Well Christopher, if that was true then you would have to explain my following post to Baronius #88 — September 22, 2008 @ 04:17AM — Franco in The Politics of “Why”

    Which you might want to check out seeing as I make referance to you in that post. And as long as we are on the subject of your trying to pigeonhole me into “some odd little “we are right, you are worng” critique , why don’t you also explain your posts to Baronius in that same thread when you pull this exact stunt.

    Case in point

    #68 — September 20, 2008 @ 19:17PM — Baronius

    Christopher – I’m not here to prove that I’m right. See above article.

    #70 — September 20, 2008 @ 20:22PM — Christopher Rose

    B, what’s the point of being wrong though?

    Seems like hypocrisy runs deep in your posts from thread to thread Mr Rose.

    If you aren’t a hypocrite, and thus serious in what you say about “actually looking for inclusive solutions to real problems”, then prove it by engaging me and coming to the table without (1) your denial of your own landed ideology, and (2) void out your hypocritical ad hominem attacks like the one you have so clearly illustrated here, and substitute them and with itellectually honest dissucion/debate. Otherwise, kiss off.

    Personally I don’t think you can do it, but I still hope for you to prove otherwise.

    Have a nice day.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Franco, it isn’t actually very easy to respond to your remarks as they don’t really make that much sense, but I’ll do my best.

    Ignoring your incomprehensible first paragraph, let’s see what can be made of the rest.

    By your own admission, you did sing along with the words of Mr Black in the thread we were discussing, so my observation that you did just that is entirely accurate. Furthermore, observing that he is pretty hateful is simply that, an observation, there’s no ideology to it.

    See, we’re already half way through your comment and so far you’ve either made no sense or been factually wrong. It’s not going well is it?

    Moving along, for it’s way past my bedtime, there was therefore no ad hominem attack at all. I’ve no idea why you try to assert there was but maybe you’re one of those people that loves to criticise but can’t stand being criticised…

    I love your charming phrase “quilt by association” though – does it mean you think I stitched you up?

    I don’t really have anything to say to the rest of your remark as it is pretty much devoid of any content as far as I can see.

    I think that you, rather like your new hero Bastiat, are so blinded by the largely illusory perfection of your own thinking as to fail to see its inherent weaknesses.

    Personally, I don’t necessarily have a coherent solution to our contemporary issues but I can recognise when people are speaking from an ideological rather than pragmatic perspective. You are clearly one of those people and, to my way of thinking, the limitations of such an approach are plain to see, as you so eloquently – albeit carelessly – display.

    Rather than railing against the hypocrisy or lack of intellectual honesty you see in my words, why don’t you turn your beady analytical eye upon your own many issues in that regard?

    Finally, please refrain from continually bolding the links you are posting, it isn’t necessary to make your points so heavy handedly.

  • Franco

    #76 — Jordan Richardson

    ((So the question really is, what is an “innocent person” to most of these Muslim groups?))

    These “Muslim groups” have telephone numbers and email addresses. Why don’t you ask them, Franco?

    Well first I would say your own words right back to you from your origanl post. “There is no “top banana” for Muslims; no one group is going to deliver a statement against the fatwahs and the terror attacks because there is no one group.”

    Second, Muslim leaders in the Middle East have clearly made the distinction who the “innocent people” are in the world. Only Muslims, and there isn’t a Muslim in the world whe dose not believe that!

    “I’ve studied Islam for a number of years, I have many Muslim friends, and my best friend is a professor of World Religions. It tends to be a subject I am in touch with quite often, so when I see such bold and unapologetic ignorance, I tend to speak up.”

    Jordan I too have studied Islam for many years in world religion courses and study groups as well. But to the point, I can understand your desire to speak up to David Black, but I am not David Black, and I have raised a completely separate and valid point of concern that you are dismissing by stating I can make a telephone call to Muslims when you yourself state that “there are no “top banana” for Muslims.”

    Allow me to give you the latest example of what I am saying.

    The latest suicide truck bombing that destroyed the packed Marriott Hotel in the city of Islamabad, Pakistan, last Saturday night was addressed by a statement from the Muslims President of Pakistan Mr. Asif Ali Zardari

    “In the holy month of Ramadan, no Muslim can act in this way. These people are not Muslims,” he said.

    What does that mean when he says that no Muslims can act in this way (the suicide terrorist attract on the Marriott Hotel) in the holy month of Ramadan if they are true Muslims. Dose he mean that every other month other then the month of Ramadan that they can and still be true Muslims? His words clearly are not excluding all other months. Why is he even making the distinctions? It is not a clear and irrefutable refutation.

    I see these kinds of statements coming out of Muslim leaders all over the world concerning when attacks are or are not justified, and also with regards to their (Muslim) perception as to who “innocent people” are. And they are not clear statements of full and uncomprmising refutiations.

    And yet in doing so, they still remain faithful to there faith on both distictions and are not lying to us in their eyes.

    My concern is not not out of hate, it is instead a logical observation of these distinctions that most all Muslims leaders clearly subscribe to and I find it disturbing.

    Add to this the fact that the debates that rage on at the UN with Muslim leaders via (the Islamic Conference of Foreign Ministers comes to mind, with the Kuala Lumpur Declaration on International Terrorism) that you sight, in preventing the UN from establishing a definition of terrorism in any conection refering to any act of violence by any Muslim as an act of terrorism, and it adds more weight to my concerns.

    You don’t have to accept my concerns Jordan, but clearly you have not refuted them either.

    The fact that I see this distinction that I raise as a concern and you do not, does not constitute that I am full of hate. If it constitutes anything it is your denial of this distinction.

    You and I don’t have to talk about it together anymore it you don’t want to. But that doesn’t mean that it goes away.

    “I’m getting really tired of being branded.”

    I have read many of your posts here on BC about your logic on capitalism, free markets, and how you generalize all of them into an oracle of hate and disgust with one swell swoop. I read your pointed at liberal socalist alternatives and in almost every thing you write you scream for slavery under unjust law.

    “Everything deserves to be ridiculed.”

    Yes they do, but liberals as a group seem to beg for it more then any other.

  • http://meetdavidblack.blogspot.com David Black

    “Besides, I am the only person posting here who has spent a fair amount of time in the Middle East recently and I believe that most of the terrorists are the gringos and israelis.”

    Well, cuervo, I lived in Israel during the Israeli-Egyptian War and I personally witnessed Islamo-fascist miscreants slaughter innocent Israelis for one reason and one reason only.

    They were Jews.

    If I could have helped to kill more islamo-fascists I would have.

    You see, libs, that’s the kind of action this one motivated Jew took in his life. I didn’t sit on my ass all my life pecking away at a computer and listening to PhD pinheads and agreeing with their pro-Pally anti-Israeli and anti-American rhetoric.

  • http://meetdavidblack.blogspot.com David Black

    “Furthermore, observing that he is pretty hateful is simply that, an observation, there’s no ideology to it.”

    So by your logic, Christopher Rose, I should instead love the very people who have pledged to kill MY people.

    is that what you are suggesting?

    If so, you’ve got be joking.

    I’m sure you libs would be more incensed if they were only targeting homosexuals.

    I know you people could give a damn about Israel and her ability to survive. That’s why you love Pallys so much.

  • http://meetdavidblack.blogspot.com David Black

    Dear Christopher Rose:

    The “
    religion
    of peace” at work.

    You people really make me ill how you can ignore the obvious!

    “Religion of peace” my ass! Let’s start being honest and not so politically correct, libs.

    You have no problem ripping to shreds your own countrymen.

    Why not instead rip to shreds the very people who are KILLING them?

    Can you spell C-O-W-A-R-D-S ??

  • http://meetdavidblack.blogspot.com david Black

    Let’s ask Christpher Rose if he’s ready to embrace the new future city of Londonstan?

    Let’s ask him if he’s ready to listen to the blaring of 24/7 prayers over PA systems from mosques in his neighborhood?

  • Cindy D

    # 69 Cannonshop: Baritone, a Liberal Prof at the local community college once told me that “Silence implies consent” (this was in relation to a discussion about the anti-war movement, which at the time was opposing the action in Afghanistan). American Feminists aren’t ignorant (or at least, they claim not to be), yet they are silent. Applying said prof’s standard, then, what am I to infer? What’s Clavos to infer? If it’s not active support, then it’s apathy, isn’t it?

    So the real question might be whether that Apathy is driven by bigotry-in-disguise.

    I’m not sure, do you feel you’re a bigot because you’ve failed to act on behalf of women who have been abused in Muslim countries?

    Why not look into your soul. Let us know whether you are merely apathetic or an active bigot for your inaction.

  • Cindy D

    RE #99

    People’s varying belief in their own delusions (otherwise called faith in some God) has been responsible for some of the the most evil and inhuman treatment of other people I have ever witnessed.

    It’s not a pretty site to see so many people (of so many faiths) twisted by hate in the name of something they imagine should inspire worship.

  • jamminsue

    #101 – Cindy D:
    You said: American Feminists aren’t ignorant (or at least, they claim not to be), yet they are silent. Applying said prof’s standard, then, what am I to infer? What’s Clavos to infer? If it’s not active support, then it’s apathy, isn’t it?

    I believe I qualify as an American Feminist and I sure am talking! I see and hear Feminists being upset by the current situation often.

    Um, are you under Maxwell Smart’s “Cone of Silence” or something?

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Jamm,

    Cindy was quoting Cannonshop from #69. That is not her view. Read the remainder of her comment in that light.

    B

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    David, all Muslims are terrorists, all Jews are profiteering, all White people are racists, all Latinos are lazy. Is this your lovely little one dimensional world?

    You don’t actually know anything except the inside of your own head and the hate and anger you are keeping there. I really hope you don’t own any weapons…

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    As for honesty, that requires accepting all the information, not just cherry picking those parts that suit your already chosen perspective.

    You wouldn’t know honesty if you fell over it, David. Like all dogmatics, you just want to prove you’re right, which is a type of behaviour I can’t and won’t accept.

    I don’t believe that the future of London is Londonistan. I believe that as humanity grows up and evolves, the fairy stories, myths and legends that we know as religion will become less important.

    That’s what has happened in the West and we can already see it happening in the Muslim world too.

    Intelligence, education and the gradual reduction of global poverty are more powerful forces than these faithist delusions, whether Jewish, Christian or Islamic in origin.

    As for you, maybe you should consider some kind of counselling to help you come to terms with that unreasoning rage before you do something I can only hope you would live to regret…

  • Cannonshop

    #101
    Cindy, I don’t (unlike American Feminist Groups) claim to speak for Anybody. In spite of giving blood at the red cross, and contributing to DVA and USO, I’m not exactly a “Humanitarian Activist”.

    However, when someone claims to be Humanitarian Activists, I tend to expect them to…well…BE humanitarian activists-especially if they have a lot of political power and can use that power to control the elected representatives whose paycheque my taxes provide.

    When a group SAYS it is for Women’s Rights, I tend to expect said group to be for the rights of ALL women, not just the ones that can vote for their picked candidate and send donations.

    IOW, I oppose the action, by supporting the troops that are putting down two regimes where that shit was not only legal, but endorsed. I oppose it by sending money to Israeli causes because it’s not Israel that wants to impose Shari’a law, I oppose “islamic” apologists here at home because they front for people that think that shit (Honor killings, etc.) is okay.

    (I also differentiate “Islam”, which as practiced by the folks in Bosnia isn’t crazy or evil, with “Wahhabism”, which is the brand that most often supports suicide bombing, homicide bombing, random shooting of civilians, “honor” killings and other abuses of women, etc. etc. Wahhabism Delenda Est.)

    Before you go on a tear about me linking the war with women’s rights, ask yourself (or google) how many women had the right to vote in Afghanistan before American soldiers entered that country?

    They can vote now. A vote is a powerful thing if the election’s clean.

    And while you’re at it, the Surge… cleaned out Fallujah and Sadr City. Ugly, right? If it hadn’t, how many gals in Sadr City would be able to hold jobs or cast a vote? (answer is none.) Before vile practices can be eliminated, the victims must be empowered, and in most cultures, this means either the use of force themselves, or access to the most powerful user of force (that’d be the Law, or Government). The first step is ALWAYS the vote. Here in the West, we have domestic Violence laws, shelters, courts, and agencies to protect ALL women from the kinds of abuses I discussed earlier…

    IF she knows she can press charges. IF she is confident in having somewhere to run, and someone who will protect her. These’re BIG “if” issues for immigrant women living in arabic speaking enclaves, and as for enforcement, every so often scanning the paper, there’s some gal who had a court-order gets killed because her ex knew where to find her, and that she wouldn’t be protected. HOw do you suppose THAT plays with a gal from, say, Egypt or Pakistan, who only knows a handfull of people and has been culturally conditioned not to talk to strange men? (even men in police uniforms). I know for damned and sure she wouldn’t talk to Me, I’m a man, but she MIGHT talk to a gal who speaks her language, she might trust that gal to grant/take her to a safe haven…if such exists.

    there’s not a hell of a lot I can do.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Hmmm….

    The minute you guys throw the Middle East into the equation, the arguments start to get awful interesting. Marthe (cuervodeluna), please. You consult here when you get the opportunity. I live here. Every time some Arab gets pissed off because some (Arab) piece of ass won’t spread her legs for him, he feels he has to go and kill – Jews. That’s what happened last night in the Old City. Yet another prick from Jebel Mukabr started trying to kill Jews for no damned reason (except that we are Jews) using the BMW his daddy gave him as a gift!

    So much for terrorism caused by desperation.

    No, dear lady, we are not the terrorists here. You have your lines crossed severely – you have your sympathies drawn all wrong. The Arabs are not some aborigine people being deprived of their land. They didn’t show up 30,000 years ago to be stricken with the white man’s genocide. WE’RE ALL WHITE FOLKS HERE, NO MATTER HOW “DARK” OUR SKIN IS! My genes run back to this nation for the last 100 generations or more, since we conquered it from the Canannites.

    No.

    We’ve suffered genocide based on what we believed and the fact that we dared to feel that we were entitled to an independent nation (the Roman/Christian genocide of 2,000 years ago. And we’ve come home. Our Moslem neighbors know that their own Qur’an gives us eternal possession of this land.

    The Arabs are Walids-come-lately, nd they all know it. They are the fathers of the desert, and their land use practices ruined this land. But greed, hatred and arrogance consumes them.

    And a lot of us are no better. Greed, arrogance and hatred of G-d consumes too many of our people as well.

    So a terrible price is being paid for this. And the price will get higher.

    Now let’s look at the original allegation by Robert Blechman – that women are nothing but commodities in politics, and that Sarah Palin is an example of this.

    The cold fact of the matter is that, for the most part, women are commodities all over the world. In Israel, a Russian mafia trades in them in Tel Aviv as though they were nothing but whores. The Arabs murder them off if they dare ‘shame’ the family. The Moslems and Africans mutilate their vulvae and clitorises so they cannot enjoy an orgasm to turn them into property more thoroughly. Hindus push widows into the funeral pyres of the husbands and routinely sexually harass them, calling it “eve teasing”. Thais, Indonesians and Filipinos sell their daughters off as prostitutes. Chinese and Inidans routinely abort girl fetuses so as to have only sons.

    The blessing in the morning prayers “I thank G-d for not creaing me a woman” is not sexist at all when you look at how women are treated in the world.

    And it sucks.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    But Cannonshop, please don’t try and convince me or Cindy or anyone else that the US went into Iraq or Afghanistan to “liberate” its women and give them the right to vote and the right to press charges against their oppressors. Many many women around the world live in horrible conditions and I doubt the US is going to go in and stop female circumcision, for exmaple, by military force, or allow Saudi women to drive by using gun power.

    And the truth to power is that American feminists are not a monolith in this country, either, no matter what men, epecially conservative men, try to tell the world. There are various factions within the “movement” and even feminists against abortion rights. There has even been quite a backlash against the use of the word “feminst” (see parallel to the use of the world “liberal”). America is a funny place. Monolithic thought, if it ever once existed, doesn’t seem to any more, which is why extreme conservatives who insist on lumping people into one big heap come out looking like fools so much of the time.

  • Cannonshop

    Nah, I wouldn’t try to convince either of you of that-it would be a lie-but the outcome of it I will point out, if only to stir the pot a bit-rights for women is one of those “Cultural Imperialism” things the American Left’s louder elements seem so deeply opposed to.

  • http://meetdavidblack.blogspot.com David Black

    “Christopher Rose wrote: I don’t believe that the future of London is Londonistan. I believe that as humanity grows up and evolves, the fairy stories, myths and legends that we know as religion will become less important.

    Intelligence, education and the gradual reduction of global poverty are more powerful forces than these faithist delusions, whether Jewish, Christian or Islamic in origin.”

    Wow, when I read such touching examples of cloying lib idealism I feel all warm and runny inside.

    “As for you, maybe you should consider some kind of counselling to help you come to terms with that unreasoning rage before you do something I can only hope you would live to regret…”

    Perhaps you should get some counseling for your complete inability to see the world for what it is. It’s called wearing rose colored glasses. Libs are very good at that.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Mr Black, I suspect it is quite a long time since you felt warm inside at all. I really feel sorry for you.

    I see the world for what it is quite clearly, thank you. It’s not a perfect place by any means, but it is better than it used to be (and getting better over time, despite the many practical problems and damaged people like you) and for that progress we can all be thankful.

    There is no real difference between your weak attempts to slam libs and those other discriminations that attack people on racial or cultural grounds. It’s all based on anger and hate and it is all wrong, always.

  • Lisa Solod Warren

    Cannon, try using periods. It makes comments easier to read. I really have no idea what you just said. OTOH it might not make any sense with periods, either.

    You might try rephrasing, if you wish a response. As opposed, say, to just spouting off:)

  • Cannonshop

    okay, from the top…

    “But Cannonshop, please don’t try and convince me or Cindy or anyone else that the US went into Iraq or Afghanistan to “liberate” its women and give them the right to vote and the right to press charges against their oppressors.

    I wouldn’t, because it isn’t true-but what IS true, is that one of the side-effects of that military action (possibly one that was unintended) is exactly that-because (in part) it’s what happens when Americans go “Nation Building”. It’s also part of that “Cultural Imperialism” that has so many ivory-tower talking heads so upset.


    “Many many women around the world live in horrible conditions and I doubt the US is going to go in and stop female circumcision, for exmaple, by military force, or allow Saudi women to drive by using gun power.”

    In both cases, probably the only way those practices CAN be stopped, is with gunpowder and blood. Whether it’s American, or Chinese, or someone as-yet-to-be-determined, the practices won’t change just because we asked them nicely.

  • Cindy D

    Cannonshop:

    So, you took what your liberal prof said then to mean:

    “Silence of feminists or humanitarian activists implies consent, everyone else may stand by and do nothing without reproach.”

    You say, you are “not exactly a humanitarian activist.” Why not then? Clearly you claim to see a need. You have described a terrible evil. Yet seem satisfied to abdicate any responsibility to do anything about it yourself.

    Instead, your choice is to twist some ideas about what your tax money is going to support into some condemnation for humanitarians or feminists.

    You are certain that no feminists or humanitarians speak out or take action against atrocities.

    “Cindy, I don’t (unlike American Feminist Groups) claim to speak for Anybody.”

    Why not?

    But you see, I believe you do speak for someone. You speak for those who sit on the sidelines in judgment, believing they have the right to determine who “should” be responsible, as long as it is not them, making assessments about what THEY expect from other people and holding themselves as not accountable for human suffering.

    Don’t you actually believe what your liberal prof. said? Because if you are using it simply to construct a club with which to bash humanitarians and feminists then why go to the trouble of pretending that you seriously believe your perceived lack of action on their part could be construed as racism.

    You may not a member of a feminist group or a humanitarian activist, but are you a member of the human race?