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The Demands of Occupy Wall Street Are Clear

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Three weeks into the Occupy protests that began on Wall Street and have now spread to every corner of the nation, bemused and befuddled commentators and lawmakers in Washington still insist on claiming that the demonstrations lack a clear objective or set of demands. But that’s not really true.

While the protesters are not marching in support or opposition to this or that specific legislation or individual policy, the brave and spirited folks animating this new movement certainly do have a clear goal. Their agenda is admittedly broad, but that simply speaks to just how wide and deep corporate influence has become in our country.

The long list of grievances is reflective of just how widespread the tendency of big business and the super-wealthy is to “place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality.” Those aren’t my words. They come directly from the protesters themselves, from their own published “Declaration of the Occupation,” approved entirely by consensus back on September 29.

As with any strong declaration, the protesters begin with a powerful preamble:

As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. 

The protesters go on to enumerate a pretty complete list of what’s wrong with our country today, from the illegal foreclosure process which has led to too many Americans losing their homes, to the poisoning of our food supply through negligence, and undermining the farming system through monopolization, and of course the bankers who happily took our tax dollars for bailouts only to turn around and resume paying themselves exorbitant bonuses at our expense.

These, of course, are but a few examples. I won’t list all of the grievances here, nor do I need to when the protesters themselves have laid them out so eloquently. I recommend that everybody read the declaration for themselves here.

What the protesters aren’t doing is providing the specific policy remedies for all of these problems. But they shouldn’t have to because that’s not their job. That should be the job of those we elect to lead us.  The real surprise here is that more Washington policymakers, particularly the progressive ones, haven’t understood that. What the protesters have offered is a gift to the clever politician: an entire platform for reform, and an obvious constituency to support it. 

The real question is why haven’t the folks in Washington answered? Each one of the wrongs in that declaration could be made right with a bill, or set of bills. What those smart and ambitious people in the White House and Capitol Hill ought to be doing is responding to every point the protesters have made by rolling out and enacting new legislation in response to each one.

The Republicans won big in 2010 by responding to the much smaller and narrower movement represented by the tea party. The Occupy protesters and all of their many supporters nationwide are similarly ready and eager to thank and support anyone here in Washington who would choose to embrace, in an enthusiastic and genuine way, the agenda that their much larger movement represents.

If only someone, anyone, in Washington actually started paying attention.

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About Scott Nance

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “What the protesters aren’t doing is providing the specific policy remedies for all of these problems. But they shouldn’t have to because that’s not their job. That should be the job of those we elect to lead us.”

    Don’t count on that! You’re being foolhardy if you think the establishment is going to lift a finger to dismantle itself or loosen its grip on power.

  • John Lake

    As I wrote somewhere, yesterday…
    “As people begin to focus on the particular issues that concern them, the coverage will increase, and the presence will surely be felt. Pass the Jobs bill, end the special interests, transparency in media, simply end the temporary tax breaks for the super-rich… Whatever it might be, if we express ourselves clearly, we might be able to save America.”

  • Arch Conservative

    Been painting with the windows closed again Scott?

  • Dan

    Here is a great discussion on MSNBC’s “Larry Kudlow” where Ann Coulter provides excellent commentary contrasting between the peaceful, erudite, tea party movement and the violent incoherency of the occupy mobs.

    Hopefully, the occutards will continue to discredit themselves and their movement in the public eye.

  • zingzing

    dan, that’s not msnbc. and ann coulter is ann coulter, and not to be trusted. and the “erudite” tea party movement? come on. the “occutards” (very erudite of you) have been pretty peaceful so far. the video doesn’t show any context, but seems to show police beating on people who don’t seem to be fighting back… then they start coming up with conspiracy theories and how police arrests equals evil liberals and how the tea partiers were able to bring guns and flag poles to their events (and that’s a good thing, i suppose). then coulter starts yelling over people with historical anecdotes and saying a flag pole in the hands of a liberal automatically turns into a weapon of mass destruction.

    terribly stupid video, dan, of the right wing missing the damn point, and a portrait of right wing propaganda hiding itself as “news.”

  • Maurice

    The real problem lies with politicians giving the peoples money (taxes and tax breaks) to the corporations. Why did Obama bail out GM? Why did Obama give the banking industry billions? Why did Obama give Solyndra $500mil? Why are our politicians morally bankrupt and why am I the only one talking about it?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    Dan, weren’t you one of the folks getting all bent out of shape at the Tea Party being portrayed as a bunch of single-digit-IQ, gun-totin’ redneck racists?

    If so, why do you feel it’s OK to similarly mischaracterise the Occupy movement?

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    @ #6: Maurice, if you honestly think you’re the only one talking about morally bankrupt politicians then I’d like to know what your asking price is for the desert island you’ve been living on for the last 200 years.

  • zingzing

    “Why did Obama bail out GM?”

    because there were thousands of jobs at stake and they’re actually turning a profit last i heard.

    “Why did Obama give the banking industry billions?”

    because there were thousands of jobs at stake and last i heard, much of that has been paid back, but they’re sitting on their profits… why are they sitting on their profits and not loaning? that’s the question you should be asking.

    “Why did Obama give Solyndra $500mil?”

    it was a green initiative that went south. sometimes these things happen.

    “Why are our politicians morally bankrupt and why am I the only one talking about it?”

    because you live on another planet and can’t communicate with the human race? i dunno.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    @9

    Not exactly fairest response to Maurice. The impression one gets that no matter would Obama has ever done or will ever do, he can do no wrong because all his actions are presumed to follow from the best possible motives. It’s a win-win argument for zing and a lose-lose argument for Maurice.

    The last retort is particularly off-beat, not any serious kind of response.

    All of us should be talking about corruption both in politics and in business and how pervasive it is in both spheres, about corruption of the entire political-economic complex. If there’s a way of swaying Maurice to zing’s way of thinking, Maurice has got to understand that corporations are what they are with the blessings of our government, and our government is what it is because it relies on corporations to protect it, that it’s a symbiotic relationship.

    Yet, all the force of zing’s argument is to defend government, and all the force of Maurice’s argument is to defend corporations. Can’t you guys see it’s a no-win argument for either of you, that there’s something categorically wrong in posing the problem in such dialectical, diametrically-opposite terms?

  • zingzing

    “The impression one gets that no matter would Obama has ever done or will ever do, he can do no wrong because all his actions are presumed to follow from the best possible motives.”

    that’s simplistic and not reliant upon what’s happened. facts. history. whatever you want to call it. stop assigning simplistic motives to people, roger. i don’t like all gov’t. they do some stupid shit. obama or gov’t does not equal heavenly angels. but when they do good, they do good. nothing’s black and white.

    “The last retort is particularly off-beat, not any serious kind of response.”

    because it was a silly thing to say.

    “All of us should be talking about corruption both in politics and in business and how pervasive it is in both spheres, about corruption of the entire political-economic complex.”

    huh. so is maurice the only one? no? so no, it wasn’t serious, but you don’t believe it either, do you?

    “If there’s a way of swaying Maurice to zing’s way of thinking, Maurice has got to understand that corporations are what they are with the blessings of our government, and our government is what it is because it relies on corporations to protect it, that it’s a symbiotic relationship.”

    yep. that’s totally my way of thinking roger. you’ve really nailed it. you really have a way with reading. you can take anything you want from it, without any thought whatsoever to what was actually said or not said. good for you. it’s a blessing.

    stop it, roger. i could proclaim whatever i think you believe without the slightest bit of evidence and throw you in the worst light if i wanted to. but i don’t. i don’t know why you insist on doing this to other people. it’s a fault. you’ll win nobody over by purposefully misunderstanding people… you’re coming up on a couple years of this shit. cut it out.

    “Yet, all the force of zing’s argument is to defend government, and all the force of Maurice’s argument is to defend corporations. Can’t you guys see it’s a no-win argument for either of you, that there’s something categorically wrong in posing the problem in such dialectical, diametrically-opposite terms?”

    i’m not defending gov’t per se. i’m defending actions that had repercussions that affected actual people. that money (a thing) that was spent means that many people can still support their families. i’m happy it was spent. it was a gamble. but it paid. and now many families are eating and such. sounds fine to me. a good function of the gov’t: the general welfare.

    if gm had gone down, not only detroit-based workers, but gm-labeled workers nation-round would have suffered. maybe you don’t care about families or children. i think you hate children and want them on the streets. yeah? is that how you feel?

    [edited]

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Hey, zing. Your responses were curt and snappy, almost no way to misread them. If you take greater time responding to your adversaries, you wouldn’t need me to make your words plainer still. I’m certain Maurice will thank me for elucidating your remarks to his satisfaction. But really, I shouldn’t be doing your job for you, the job you should be doing yourself.

    Yes, I am a children-hater and I don’t mind you portraying me that way. Next time, however, look up those of my words that wouldn’t require such a stretch. After all, you do want to come across as being even half-ass believable.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Anyway, done for today.

    To be continued, I guess.

  • zingzing

    no way to misread them, yet you did. they were specific criticisms. i responded to specific criticisms.

    you’re certain maurice will thank you? why? and why should i be making arguments against myself? we are misunderstanding each other, i think. but that’s how it goes.

    “Next time, however, look up those of my words that wouldn’t require such a stretch.”

    welcome to my world, roger. do you not get the point? i’m not really calling you a “children-hater,” i’m saying that’s how you portray others. how you miss that, i don’t know.

  • Dan

    Dr. Dreadful, I don’t think I’ve “mischaracterized” the occupy movement to any extent whatsoever. They’ve proven to be both violent and incoherent. Not everyone in the movement of course.

    I also don’t remember getting “bent out of shape” over mischaracterizations of the tea party movement. “Gun totin'” and “redneck” and even “racist” are not necessarily what I consider negative connotations. “Single digit IQ’s” are impossible, but double digit IQ’s are possessed by half the US population, and seem to be prominent in the occupy movement.

    I also don’t remember any similar protest from you when tea party folks were maliciously slandered. Thats Ok though, If you are only bothered by negative portrayals of occutards so be it. I have no problem with your lack of neutrality.

    zingzing, at least you are right about Larry Kudlow not being on MSNBC. It’s CNBC. I’m glad you took a look at the clip. I wasn’t linking it to prove the occutards are violent. There are many videos that do a better job of that.

  • Clavos

    it was a green initiative that went south.

    As do a significant number “green initiatives,” primarily because there’s very little market for them, and most of it is neutralized by the non-competitive cost of much “green” merchandise offered for sale.

  • zingzing

    dan, you obviously haven’t been watching much coverage of the events if you think the “occutards” (you cannot speak on “neutrality,” but you can speak on hypocrisy!) are all violent and incoherent. i don’t doubt there are videos showing them to be violent, but i’ll note you haven’t posted one. i’ve seen lots of videos that show peaceful protests violently broken up by police, like the one you posted, but that doesn’t count, now does it?

    and fox news has been belittling the protesters by cutting videos to make them look silly… like left wing organizations did to the tea party, but that wasn’t fox news… it was meant to be funny, not the be-all end-all truth, and now some people are obviously being fooled. welcome to being suckered, dan. if you thought those who thought the tea party was all dumb hicks were stupid, stupid people, well… you’re falling for the same trick.

    you can know your enemy (even though if you actually knew them you’d see points where you undoubtedly agree), or you can just make up whatever floats your boat. do what you will.

  • zingzing

    clavos, florida is a southern state. now what have we learned today?

    there’s a market out there for plenty of green initiatives. but some of them are going to fail. just like anything else.

  • zingzing

    and dan, what were you linking to that video to prove then? that ann coulter has no clue what she’s talking about? that you have a short memory?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    @14

    (Mis)readings or alternative readings are useful tools for milking out meanings. If you took courses on literary theory and criticism, you ought to know that. You also ought to know that any text is the property of the reader.

    If you don’t want to be open to alternative interpretations, write with the kind of precision which would not admit it.

    Yes, Maurice will thank me for clarifying matters on his behalf, of this I’m certain, even though my criticism was launched at him as well.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “and why should i be making arguments against myself?”

    Because if what you’re after is true understanding or reaching a common ground with another, you’ve got to consider the weakness(s) of your own argument and come forward with it. Otherwise, you’re just jerking off.

  • zingzing

    so, roger… you speak for maurice now. glad to know it. i don’t think you clarified anything for him. you parroted the same old stuff you always do… the same old simplifications and the same old doomsaying.

    and yes, alternate readings can be useful, in the right context. but they can also be horribly wrong and completely annoying. you seem to get it wrong on purpose, or to take things way too far down some path. it’s a useless exercise a vast majority of the time. and you’ve been told this time and time again. maybe you haven’t believed it. believe it. maybe you read it some other way. no one likes being misinterpreted, especially when someone seems to do so willfully. it takes the conversation nowhere and is exasperating.

    you can act like it’s some grand tactic of yours. but it’s just crap, roger. you know it, and i know it. do you understand that? can i make that any clearer?

  • txdollarbill

    A pathetic attemp by Move on and the Unions to mimic the success of the Tea Party.
    Thess FLEAbaggers don’t want to work; they want a free ride ! If you believe their views it’s called Marxism. And no i don’t believe their talking points. The agenda is wealth distribution and to encourage class warfare to get The Propagandist & Chief re elected. This is the biggest AstoTurf movement iv’e ever seen.
    The movement in Egypt has resulted in the burning of churches and multiple deaths of Christians. This crowd would do the same in confiscating private wealth and castigating success in the name of equality.
    Their irrelevance will be duely noted in the weeks to come

  • zingzing

    “Because if what you’re after is true understanding or reaching a common ground with another, you’ve got to consider the weakness(s) of your own argument and come forward with it. Otherwise, you’re just jerking off.”

    quoted for truth, and i think you should learn it as well. but i’m not sure what i was referring to up there, but it’s not that… i think i must have misread you somewhere. i’ll point out weaknesses (

  • zingzing

    …in my own arguments when i see them, as you should know by now.

  • zingzing

    tcdollarbill: “This is the biggest AstoTurf movement iv’e ever seen.”

    other than your education…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    @ 22

    Whatever, zing. This discussion is no longer fruitful.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    Dan, I haven’t participated in any of the gross mischaracterizations of Tea Partiers, although my main impression of the ones I’ve encountered is that they’re in the movement not because they’re opposed to big government on principle or are being slammed with higher taxes, but because they would rather not pay any. If you want to call that a mischaracterization, so be it, although I’m just saying it like I see it.

    Actually, the most striking thing about OWS is how similar it is in many ways to the stated goals/gripes of the Tea Party.

    Both movements have arisen out of the post-2008 cluckfuster. Both are angry about bailouts, the deficit and the parlous state of the economy. Both have attracted large numbers of ordinary, middle-class people who under normal circumstances aren’t the sort of folks you find protesting on the streets. Both agree that they are getting the shaft from “the Man”; they differ only as to who “the Man” is.

    Not convinced? Try this quiz and see how you do. I got 5 out of 9.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Indeed, they are (similar). But neither the libs or the conservatives are willing to acknowledge that.

  • Igor

    I guess that ¨Dan¨ didn´t get the word that the ´violence´ was caused by right-wing agent provocateur Patrick Howley from the right-wing ¨American Spectator¨.

    DC rightist agent provocateur riot


    SAT OCT 08, 2011 AT 08:30 PM PDT

    Conservative Magazine Brags of its Agent Provocateur’s Role in Provoking Police Action in D.C.

    The American Spectator admits to being involved in the precipitation of violence at the Air and Space Museum as a means of discrediting the Occupy Movement.

    It has been openly reporting about its “plants” among the protesters and their actions to get certain things to occur. Included in this, today, was the presence – and central role played by – of Patrick Howley, its Assistant Editor, in sparking the police reaction and violence.

    Standoff in D.C.
    The American Spectator admits to being involved in the precipitation of violence at the Air and Space Museum as a means of discrediting the Occupy Movement. It has been openly reporting about its “plants” among the protesters and their actions to get certain things to occur. Included in this, today, was the presence – and central role played by – of Patrick Howley, its Assistant Editor, in sparking the police reaction and violence.

    Standoff in D.C.
    By Patrick Howley on 10.8.11 @ 6:24PM

    American Spectator reporter pepper-sprayed at Washington protest.

    The fastest-running protesters charged up the steps of Washington’s National Air and Space Museum Saturday afternoon to infiltrate the building and hang banners on the “shameful” exhibits promoting American imperialism. As the white-uniformed security guards hurried to physically block the entrances, only a select few — myself included — kept charging forward.

    Mr. Howley’s adventure led to his being pepper-sprayesd as well as being the only protester to make it into the museum.

    Under a cloud of pepper spray I forced myself into the doors and sprinted blindly across the floor of the Air and Space Museum, drawing the attention of hundreds of stunned khaki-clad tourists (some of whom began snapping off disposable-camera portraits of me). I strained to glance behind me at the dozens of protesters I was sure were backing me up, and then I got hit again, this time with a cold realization: I was the only one who had made it through the doors. As two guards pointed at me and started running, I dodged a circle of gawking old housewives and bolted upstairs.
    Mr. Howley make it out of the museum again, after taking actions that he planned to blame on others. Yet he finds this a source of pride.

    “The museum is now closed!” screamed one of the guards as alarms sounded. “Everyone make your way to the exits immediately!” Using my jacket to cover my face — which I could feel swelling to Elephant Man proportions — I ducked through the confused tourists and raced out the exit. “Hey, you!” shouted a female guard reaching for my arm. “Get back here!” But I was already down the steps and out of sight.
    Patrick Howley is an assistant editor at The American Spectator. It is clear that there was more to the escalation of that incident into police violence than the presence of Occupation supporters. it appears that its opponents, with a clearly stated agenda to disrupt and discredit it, were centrally involved in what rhey delierately escalated out of control – and now they are on the internet bragging about it

  • zingzing

    doc–i tried the quiz. 8/9, although i must admit i had to purely guess on a few of them and just got lucky. it really is a case of fill in the blank with your bogeyman. both big business and the gov’t have their faults, and both should be addressed. problem is, while the gov’t has cause to listen, i can’t figure out why big business would. if i were them, i certainly wouldn’t. somehow, the protesters need to attack big business’ wallet.

  • Clavos

    clavos, florida is a southern state. now what have we learned today?

    HUH???

  • zingzing

    i’ll never tell.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    The classic way to change the behaviour of big business is to stop consuming their products, or threaten to.

    But that theory falls flat on its face in the case of today’s vast multinationals, who will simply move to new markets if the current ones become hostile.

    As Clav is fond of reminding us, corporations are answerable to no-one but their shareholders… who are often other corporations.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    Mr Howley’s account looks very suspect to me.

    I mean, he allegedly got pepper-sprayed, yet while his face was ballooning up “to Elephant Man proportions” he was somehow able to notice that he was the only one who’d made it into the museum, not to mention that his maced eyeballs could still quite capably register details like “gawking housewives” and “hundreds of khaki-clad tourists” (give me a break).

    Then, we are supposed to believe, he nimbly evaded security guards and a large crowd pressing in the opposite direction and made his escape – all without the benefit of eyesight and with his head under a coat.

    I rather think the only thing those guards were standing in the way of was a good story.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    The Republicans won big in 2010 by responding to the much smaller and narrower movement represented by the tea party

    It’s much easier to respond to a narrower set of demands. Wishing for peace, love, full employment and magical bunnies is very hard to respond to.

    Dave

  • zingzing

    i haven’t seen any demands for magical bunnies, but i’m all for them. who wouldn’t be? dave, you’re an asshole. if assholes hate magical bunnies, that is.

    i agree that the ows crowd hasn’t put forth a coherent set of demands, but your characterizations don’t fit the reality either.

    weird how politics and real life have such a disconnect, isn’t it? it’s as if we’re all playing a game, and we don’t really care. dave comes off like such a dunce here, but i’d bet that’s what the right wing felt about the left wing’s response to the tea party. and yet the right wing is happy to play along with the fantasy, even though there’s much common ground.

    i suppose we could all learn a lesson here. the majority of people in this country want mostly the same things, but we continue to fuck ourselves with our petty bullshit. dave’s little belittling, as stupid as it is, is just an illustration.

    we the people are our own worst enemy. fuck us.

  • troll

    the underlying demand of most people I’ve met in the ows/liberation movement is a new leaderless politics based on participatory decision making and consensus in which all voices are solicited and heard to replace our present hijacked system of ‘representation’

    this is why it will not be folded into mainstream politics and why it can be treated as an actual threat – note and be prepared for the liberal use of chem weapons night sticks and dogs

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Damn right those methods will be used, and then some.

    As an aside, it’s interesting how the powers that be do their best to inject themselves into the OSW movement by representing themselves as providing the necessary legitimating authority, as though OSW was contingent on their “good will.”

    The projected cleanup of the NY grounds on Friday is an example.

    In a smart counter-move, the protesters intend to clean the grounds themselves.

    Shall see what’ll develop.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    Just thought you all ought to know it was just on CNN that the magical bunnies have escaped and are now digging holes all over the moral high ground.

  • troll

    Damn right those methods will be used, and then some.

    that’s what the small group of 30ish albq graveyard shift protesters and homeless faced in the wee hours last monday morning

    the authorities in albq w/ the press in tow are using the hygiene issue (that homeless face daily) as a smear and a way to shut the protest down – as a witness and one who spends a fair amount of time cleaning up I can report that the area is kept clean and that McD’s is doing a booming business in small coffees which gets folks buzzed into their restrooms…also – during business hours a few local businesses and ngo’s offer the use of there facilities…also – students participating have their own facilities more or less close at hand

    so I haven’t had to deal w/ human feces to this point…

    of course the authorities will not allow porta-potties or open flames to heat wash water etc – that would make things too easy

    I’d bet that a small generator if available would violate noise ordnances or some such

  • Clavos

    Just thought you all ought to know it was just on CNN that the magical bunnies have escaped and are now digging holes all over the moral high ground.

    Yay, Doc! Best line of the day, ahem, week — hell, the month!

    Props, Doctor, props!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    @41

    Municipal ordinances serve as the ever-ready pretext for the authorities to re-assert themselves as the guardians of the “larger” community, to re-assert their legitimacy, that is, without which approval and consent no counter-movement could get off the ground.

    I sure hope most folks ain’t buying it and see through these maneuvers as an open book.

  • http://cinemasentries.com El Bicho

    good to see txdollarbill’s irrelevance duly achieved immediately

  • Zedd

    I’m curious as to what has to happen for the Right to finally admit that they have been wrong. That their ideas and “solutions” have failed the entire globe. The interesting thing is that they can not offer solutions because effective solutions would negate everything that they have been spouting about for the past 30yrs.

    Good to see you guys are still hammering away.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Hi, stranger, talk to me. Love ya.

  • Zedd

    Hi roger!

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Roger –

    Indeed, they are (similar). But neither the libs or the conservatives are willing to acknowledge that.

    Gee, then the liberal pundits I follow are all the very rare exception to the rule when they point out the similarities? I do so wish you’d find out what liberals think before you make broad-brush statements and judgments like when you stated that liberals like zing and myself somehow think that illiteracy is mostly a problem with the blacks….

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    What kept you out for so long? It’s been a year at least. Really missed you.

  • Cannonshop

    There’s a fairly large difference here, guys.

    The Tea Partiers never had the time to occupy anywhere-having a job, or looking for a job, kind of short-circuits that sort of thing, and having to pay bills tends to make one less likely to wander off for more than a day or two at the most.

  • Arch Conservative

    Glenn and zing and every other BC resident moonbat would like to pretend that the “occupy” protestors are serious individuals but my lying eyes tell a different story when I see pictures and footage of them dancing around, smoking pot, beating their bongo drums, defecating on police cruisers and generally behaving like the world class useless malcontents that they are.

  • Zedd

    Cannonshop,

    We all know that there is something terribly wrong on our country today. Regardless of the political posturing, we really cant quite put a finger on it but we know it needs to stop. Well, it’s us. We are what is wrong. Statements like the one that you just made are a big part of the problem. Tea Partiers for the most part are older. The folks who are occupying Wall Street are kids. That is the difference that explains things. The comment about them and their work ethic (and character) does noting to expand our understanding of what is going on. It’s just a random, unprocessed blurt that does more harm than good. You see, if we remain preoccupied with making the best jab, we are not fixing our problems.

    My question to you is, are you intending to do harm? If not, take responsibility for your contribution to this mess that we are in as a country and stop yourself from further adding to the idiocy and divisiveness. Whats interesting is while you are jabbing and throwing zingers, people are loosing their jobs and profits continue to sore… on your watch.

    Its “WE the people, in order to form a more perfect union”.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    @50

    Shallow thinking, Cannon. You’re glossing over agreement in fundamentals — dissatisfaction with the government — and for what sake? What rides on your superficial distinction other than to accentuate an artificial and (at this point) circumstantial divide?

    Just wait a year or two until the times get worsen yet, and we shall see what song you’ll sing when the time comes.

  • Igor

    15 – Dan
    �Dr. Dreadful, I don’t think I’ve “mischaracterized” the occupy movement to any extent whatsoever. They’ve proven to be both violent and incoherent.�

    �Violent�? That�s terrible! Where can I go to see or read about that violence?

  • Igor

    Arch,

    �…pictures and footage of them dancing around, smoking pot, beating their bongo drums, defecating on police cruisers …�

    That�s terrible! Since I don�t see TV news, where can I go to see such behaviour?

  • Jordan Richardson

    Here is somebody crapping on a police car, apparently, so that’s probably what Arch is referring to. The picture has been making the rounds on all the usual conservative sources, just like racist Tea Party signs and threatening phone calls to Bart Stupak made the rounds to liberal sources when it was necessary to demonize the right as a homogeneous unit. When will we learn?

    It’s possible that this dude was just rubbing his ass on the car. Or fixing his pants. Or whatever.

    As far as “dancing around, smoking pot, beating their bongo drums…,” such horrific activity surely could never take place. Dancing around? For shame!

  • Jordan Richardson

    Oh, and here is some unsettling video of the violence at Occupy.

    Of course, it’s a dude getting run over by a police scooter so that may not support Dan’s meme all that well.

    I’m sure he’ll be along with something to support his views.

  • Cannonshop

    #52 Zedd, that’s exactly the point-the OWS people are CHILDREN, emulating their parents and teh stories those parents told about ‘the good old days’, this is why the “Occupy” movements present more of a public santiation threat, than a threat to the established political order-the people who have JOBS and BILLS taking time to go protest, are much scarier to “Our masters in Washington/Wall Street” than some undergrads out having a good time and making noise.

    esp. when the undergrads in question, are essentially taking up the banner of the same establishment they claim to oppose.

    When the people with jobs do it, it’s scarier to the rulers up in the ivory tower, because it means they’re SERIOUS about it, not just making a mess for a larf, whereas the kids in “Occupy” are going to forget about it right about midterms, or when the beer runs out, or when they’re cramming for semester finals to graduate.

    After which, the protesters from OWS will go looking for jobs, in the same Big Business that they were protesting six months earlier, or the same big goverrnment that they supported in protests six months earlier.

    They’re children, there’s no risk in what they’re doing, so it really doesn’t matter, it’s just what happens to be fashionable right now.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Cannonshop,

    For all your characterizations of the OWS folks, the facts just don’t bear it out.

    Try leaning away from the stereotypes and you might find more common ground than you think.

    Of course, you probably have an explanation for the number of senior citizens and war veterans that I saw amongst the Occupy Seattle crowd. Or the employed young men and women in suits and ties that came down to lend support on their lunch breaks.

    It’s unsurprising that the people hit the hardest (students who are overeducated but underemployed) would be able to attend the OWS events and protests in greater numbers, but that doesn’t mean that the totality of the movement deserves your crude mischaracterizations.

  • Cannonshop

    The key here, is “Popular”, Jordan. It’s FASHIONABLE, not serious.

    at it’s height, the Tea parties had the same basic flaw.

    That people are angry, but don’t know why, has been the constant since 2001, (well, actually since 1993 or so, but we’re talking in widespread numbers AND awareness).

    Who has time? Retirees grasping for that hint of the youth-movements they remembered, and the children. Those suited young people you mentioned-they showed up to say they were there, but they went back to work when their break was over, and traffic out of King County didn’t lighten up much, if at all, so they weren’t staying to join in the fun after the workday was done.

    It’s a scene, it’s hip for the moment, but that’s all it really is. There’s little to no risk, and it’s something to brag around the water-cooler with the other officeweenies, most of whom tend to trend more left in their electoral politics even while they vote for initiatives that trend rightward and vote down special levees.

    I’ll maintain-it’s low risk, and it’s famous, and it’s a chance to touch on something that is stylish and famous and endorsed by the powers-that-be, kind of like government approved rock-and-roll (as Bill Hicks said, “Hoo, we’re partying now.”) but that’s all it is. the ENTIRE ‘occupy’ movement is more of a local sanitation and traffic bother, than a threat to either the entrenched corporate interests, or their puppet politicians (Left AND Rightish).

    OTOH, the Tea Parties SCARED establishments on both sides of the aisle badly enough that they generated immediate, official-and-unofficial efforts to demonize them and marginalize them-that’s the real stuff, Jordan-if the Establishment Politicians are comfy with it, it’s probably not the change you’re looking for-if they’re terrified of it, it has some actual JUICE.

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    I think it is far too early to be so dismissive of this movement.

    It is clear that mainstream politics pretty much all around the world is coming under increasing pressure from people (regardless of their prior political orientation) to be more responsive and effective as ordinary people become increasingly politically aware and empowered.

    The arguments of those like Cannonshop who are so ready to dismiss the Occupy movement may be true but equally may not. Meanwhile, all efforts to return power to the people and reduce central control of our lives, particularly in countries like the USA and the UK which have always championed freedom but have slipped into excessively controlling ways over recent decades, should surely be encouraged…

  • Jordan Richardson

    Cannonshop, from my perspective (I was in Seattle for one occupation and may head down to Vancouver today to check out another) this isn’t a fad for many of the people that attend.

    I’m certain your perspective is determined by certain media outlets and a preconceived notion of what the protesters are like and who they may be, but I can assure you that I have come across people from all walks of life that either support or are a part of the movement in some fashion. To them, it is not a mere fad or a “scene.” To some, protesting is damn sure fashionable. But I think you’re being unfairly dismissive here.

    The Occupy movement has expanded into several cities and areas, not just hip neighbourhoods and parks with trendy shops nearby. It is broad, not limited to a particular political persuasion. It is representative not of a view necessarily but of an outrage, a deep-seated feeling that something’s not right and something must be changed. You may not consider that serious, but I think that you’re making a mistake on that front.

  • Zedd

    Cannon,

    Most revolutions are manned by the young. You should know this.

    The larger point that I am hoping you begin to understand is that most people know that something is terribly wrong. These kids don’t have much to loose so that are willing to take bigger risks to make it known to the powers that be that enough is enough.

    No one knows how to fix this. NO ONE. However what you are seeing is an expression of immense frustration, and fear by THE PEOPLE.

    I’m not sure what exactly you believe. I’m not sure you know what you believe. I’ve read your defense of ideas that are contrived to keep you in your station in life. I’ve read your repeat of statements that were formulated by some puppet master a google miles away; ideas that don’t have any historical foundation, just feel good or feel bad blurts that are intended to tickle your now insatiable apatite for “gotcha”.

    So in the spirit of moving forward and taking real ownership of your role as one of the people, I would like for you to clearly articulate what YOU stand for.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    If Cannon considered himself as “one of the people,” he would have identified himself with the OWS (just as he had done with the Tea Party movement). The fact that he doesn’t, the fact that he presses on with his distinction between those who (still) have jobs and those who don’t, tells the whole story.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    And what did you mean, BTW, when you said, “it’s not my kind of scene”? just curious.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Cannonshop –

    Who has time?

    Those who are unemployed and have been unemployed for long enough for their unemployment insurance to have run out. The Republicans sneer at the unemployed – who are quite often Republicans themselves – saying that those who are unemployed simply need to get up off their butts and get a job.

    But there’s one problem with that – look at the help-wanted ads of ANY newspaper…and compare that total number of help-wanted ads to the total number of unemployed in the area that newspaper services.

    In EVERY case, the number of unemployed will be significantly greater – and this is NOT counting the fact that those help-wanted ads are often looking for those with qualifications that are uncommon among the unemployed. So…never mind the fact that there are FAR more unemployed then there are jobs available, it’s all the fault of the unemployed that “they’re not rich”.

    You also said:

    It’s a scene, it’s hip for the moment, but that’s all it really is

    Oh? Tell that to the protesters in Rome, New Zealand, Australia, Taiwan, and Germany.

    According to the Reuters story:

    While most rallies were small and barely held up traffic, the Rome event drew tens of thousands of people and snaked through the city center for kilometers (miles).

    Some protesters in masks and helmets set fire to cars, smashed the windows of stores and banks and trashed offices of the defense ministry. Police fired water cannon at demonstrators who were hurling rocks, bottles and fireworks.

    In New Zealand it was ‘only’ about 3000 protesters, in Sydney ‘only’ about 2000.

    The TEA PARTY, on the other hand, never truly went global, did they? That’s what rampant income inequality will bring sooner or later, every time, without fail.

  • troll

    I suggest that like Jordan you folks get out to your local #occupy and see what’s going on first hand – you will find all ages all colors all gender ids and an amazing assortment of political persuasions rep’d

    be prepared to check your assumptions and (for most of you) your privilege

    I find it surprising that after all the conversations I’ve read here on the problems w/ the msm you don’t suspect its motives and product

    Cannonshop – more popular signage: I’ve got 2 jobs and now I’ve got an occupation

    which sometimes reads: I lost both jobs and the house but I got an occupation

    you doubters should stop pretending that you don’t realize along with the rest of the world that something is terribly wrong w/ the way we relate with one another and that this needs fixing

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    From God’s mouth to disbelievers’ ears.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    The advantage of using a radical forum rests on the fact that you can say “outrageous,” provocative things. This lame discussion, judging by the recent sequence of comments, is limited to trying to convince such as Cannon or Archie about the possibilities inherent in the OWS protest — a futile enterprise considering that neither of them is going to become convinced so as to overcome their deeply ingrained prejudices.

  • troll

    conundrum – can’t have much of a radical forum w/out their voices

    c o n s e n s u s

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    With some people, shock treatment is necessary. Consensus comes after.

  • troll

    perhaps you’re right

  • http://1freeworld.org Anarcissie

    I think it would be both radical and easily understood by persons of all ideological flavors that Occupy Wall Street has only asked half of the big question. The other half is, What are we going to do about capitalism? Because the production of inequality is one of the inherent outcomes of capitalism, and proceeds until there is some kind of crisis or breakdown in the social order.

  • troll

    Anarcissie – there are ‘anti-capitalism’ and ‘economic foundations’ workshops going on at several occupies that I know of…and I imagine all of them eventually will get these organized

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    But we’re beginning to see a breakdown of social order and it’s necessary to dramatize it — the essence of street theater.

    Tell me what police state looks like?
    This is what police state looks like!

    You can’t negotiate with the enemy of the people, you can’t depose them nicely. If not strong actions, at least strong words are the first order of the day. They don’t understand anything else.

    And the same goes for the sleepers like Cannon or Arch Conservative. Before you can win their hearts, you’ve got to fight their lame words with fire, break their resistance, show the kind of determination they haven’t even dreamed of. And if that doesn’t work, let them rot by the wayside.

    Every revolution has its casualties, so be it!

    And Anarcissie, it goes deeper than that. For many of these people, inequalities are just fine, just desserts, a matter of cosmic justice. You can’t reason with these people. You can only leave them behind.

    And Ana

  • troll

    …assuming they all can hold the physical ground for the process

  • troll

    Rog – one agreement that the occupies are down for is using non-violent civil disobedience at this time

    frankly – if this is ignored I think the movement will beat itself silly…literally

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    @77

    I agree. Ultimately, the moral force is the only force of account. But holding physical space is essential.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    There are only twenty thousand occupying Times Sq. tonight. Imagine a hundred thousand or a million?

    Physical bodies must be put on the line. There is no substitute.

  • Jordan Richardson

    you will find all ages all colors all gender ids and an amazing assortment of political persuasions rep’d

    Quoted for truth.

    In Vancouver (wish I could have made it down today) there were elderly Asian males who owned businesses, groups of white-haired women, “anarchists,” business suit-wearing Alpha males, hockey fans, people with the day off work (there goes that jobless meme), and so forth. Best of all, the local news featured a soccer mom type who brought her young girls down to the event at the Vancouver Art Gallery to “show them how democracy looks.”

    This is the beauty of the movement to me, not how many people are where or who’s showing up to what and for how long. The magic of this is that it can involve and include EVERYONE.

    This is a global movement, not just some fad comprised of hippie kids with no jobs and nothing to do with themselves. It’s not about naval-gazing or philosophizing or getting things just so. It’s about solidarity, about compassion, about being fed up with inequality the world over (not just in ol’ America).

    This is a movement that welcomes all sorts of people and shuns those who strive to dominate it with talk of harsh ideology and so forth. It does not belong to a political or economic avenue; it belongs to the people, all of them.

    I hope to hell it stays this way.

  • Jordan Richardson

    I think it’s important to remember, too, that one of the most prevalent “slogans” of the occupy events is along the lines of “We are the 99 percent.”

    The second you start to put too fine a point on it (like if you subscribe the notion of anti-capitalism or liberal or conservative or progressive or hippie or anarchist or whatever to the group) is the second that 99 percent becomes a smaller number. There is a strong desire to figure out what the “demands” of the occupants are and the criticism is largely that they lack goals that are concrete, but I think that’s the point.

    The 99 percent will never agree on goals or ideologies. When the events dissolve, people will crawl back to their lives as conservatives, liberals, anarchists, hippies, drug users, gun nuts, punks, hockey fans, businessmen, activists, and all other forms of human identifiers. But what should be remembered is not what group the people held to or what their labels were. What should be remembered is why they came out, why they stood up and why they were fed up.

  • troll

    too early to tell just how deep an impact it’ll have I guess

    as for the inclusiveness of it all that’s what differentiates it and fuels its possibilities…the occupations have the potential to be tremendous idea generators – so much diverse energy

  • Clavos

    1%

  • Jordan Richardson

    I think it’s already had an impact in many ways. One of the more subtle ways is that of showing “normal” people that they can attend a “protest” event with their families and kids and not be overcome by pot smoke and/or tear gas.

    It’s very possible that OWS could be responsible for opening the doors of dissent to people of all walks of life. If that’s all it accomplishes, I’d say it’s been a roaring success.

  • troll

    Clavos – are you reping for the 1% or is that simply a dream of grandure?

  • t

    grandeur

  • Jordan Richardson
  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Demanding meaningful and significant economic reform is great but, for me, if it stops there, this will only ever be just a start and certainly not anything like the full overhaul of the entire system that is required. Anything less than that will probably do little more than buy some time before large scale dissatisfaction starts all over again.

    At the very least there needs to be a massive reset of the entire criminal law system, the powers of the state, the security services and military policy throughout not only the USA and the UK but the entire world.

  • troll

    when in an optimistic mood and for no particularly good reason I imagine that a significant impact at any level will have significant impact on all levels

  • troll

    thus the contradiction of capitalist accumulation which is so apparent to everyone these days goes hand in hand w/ that of criminalizing large swathes of the population…maybe that will become apparent too

  • Clavos

    Clavos – are you reping for the 1% or is that simply a dream of grandure?

    Neither, troll. I side with them.

  • troll

    …I don’t think that we have to worry about them Clavos – at least I haven’t heard ‘off with their heads’ yet

  • http://heloise8.wordpress.com/ heloise

    OWS could be the death knell of Washington DC as the power broker for this country. They are owned by the billionaires. That’s the real problem with our government and the global governance as the planet shrinks to less manageable terms.

    What has to be made perfectly clear is that not only were the people sold out but it was done with impunity and with deliberateness.

    That’s at the heart of all the ills that have befallen the masses. From the illegal alien invasion to the dubious packaging of worthless financial instruments it has been done without representation. As for “Who ain’t in prison?” It is a legal travesty that people like Chris Dodd have gotten away scott free. He was the slave auctioner in the selling of the people to the banksters and to Wall Street. Then the top tier at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac where are they now?

    The reason that states are now implementing the “border fences” in their states in terms of legislation is because they thought that DC was going to do its federal duty i.e., protect the borders and the national interest.

    Now the states see that they must protect themselves.

    “Two Parties–One Greed”

    Heloise

  • Jordan Richardson

    Some of the one percent “side” with the 99 percent, Clavos.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Chris (#88) is right in that OWS would be a failure if it stopped with economic reforms. It’s no harsh ideology to be of the mind that the entire economic-political system is long overdue for a major overhaul. To laud OWS merely for having provided a forum for all kinds of people to meet, even if it ultimately fails, is a romantic and a dangerous idea, for it would send a message fo generatations to come that the people can’t effectively challenge their government, that all such efforts are doomed to failure. It’s a risk the brains and hearts behind OWS can’t afford to take. They’re responsible not only to themselves but to future generations.

    It’s all about access to public spaces in which to transact the business of politics and reinstate the democratic process (see Anarcissie’s lucid aritcle, “Occupy Wall Street and the Abolition of Public Space”), spaces which are guarded tooth and nail by the powers that be in the name of property rights and by way of coountless ordinances as regards such matters as sanitation, impeding traffic, licensing, anything in the book, all relatively speaking minor and superficial concerns compared to what’s really at stake. And the way they’re being escalated so as to serve major impediments, blocking/controlling/restricting public access to such spaces, spaces in which to exercise the rights to a general assembly, free speech and, generally speaking, to transact the business of democracy, adds the exclamation mark.

    The public spaces which the occupiers claim and insist on occupying are at odds with, if not altogether bypass, the conventional venues in which the business of politics as usual and the affairs of the state are conducted on a routine basis, our corridors of power. In a nutshell, the creation of alternative public spaces represents a clear and present danger, an existential threat to the existing and failing socio-political institutions which have no other object in mind but to chuggle along regardless. The property rights and the multitude of ordinances which are invoked in their name by way of enforcement are but a pretext.

    If there is one thing which OWS simply must walk away with and claim as victory, it has to be the reinstating of a revolutionary spirit on the part of the people as a permanent feature of everyday living, a democratic spirit which inspires with confidence that when the people set their minds to it to bring about the necessary changes, they can because they are the government. And for that spirit to be ever-present, part and parcel of our everyday lives, and thrive, access to public spaces in which to discuss and participate in the affairs of the day and all matters pertaining to our government and the conduct or misconduct of the state, is a must. It’s the only venue.

    There is an important historical precedent in the earliests form of democracy known the humankind, of the Greek city-states, Athens especially. The public square, the agora, was a precondition, an institution without which no Athenian type of democracy would have been conceivable, let alone get to flourish. If the General Assembly served as a stamp of approval, a form of ratification, the agora was the nerve center and the locus. The process is what’s all important; and whatever results may follow, they must proceed from a process set aright.

    The present degree of centralization in our society as regards economic and political decision-making poses no conceptual obstacle once we realize that all politics is, at bottom, local and must begin at home.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    58 Cannonshop Your characterization of the OWS protesters is misguided by your own prejudice. They are the generation of young people who spent the value of a house in student loans and look forward to unemployment and lack of medical care.

    If they have no jobs, it’s because the decisions of this society has arranged that none are available.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Rather than being footloose and fancy free with no jobs, they are unable to support themselves on the legacy left them by capitalism’s relentless trickle up of wealth.

  • Igor

    You’re right, Cindy.

  • Jordan Richardson

    It doesn’t matter if you have a job or don’t. It doesn’t matter if you’re young, old, male, female, whatever.

    It apparently doesn’t even matter if you’re a Citibank customer trying to close your account.

    How does the one percent explain this?

  • http://1freeworld.org Anarcissie

    Citibank blamed the NYPD. What happens when you work for The Man.

  • Jeannie

    The Occupy movement brings great hope for the US & world.

    “We The People” are now awake and any comparison to the corporately funded TeaParty is just wishful thinking by Dick Army and the Koch brothers.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy
  • Clavos

    Some of the one percent “side” with the 99 percent, Clavos.

    Soft-headed as that is, it’s their constitutional right, Jordan.

    How does the one percent explain this?

    They don’t have to.

  • Jordan Richardson

    Na na na na boo boo to you too, Clavos.

  • Zingzing

    Looking out for self-interest is now “soft-headed,” eh, clavos? The 1% makes their money from somewhere right? And if you’re not part of the 1%, how soft is your head? Getting a bit squishy up there, is it?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Global revolution: protests in 1,000+ cities — in videos from Reflections on a Revolution (ROAR) an online magazine.

    Croatia and Slovenia on Twitter:

    @OccupyZagreb
    @OccupyLjubljana

    What a beyootiful thing!

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    (Z)ingzing?

    keyboard mishap?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    link doesn’t work

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    good link to replace the bad one to ROAR in #106.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    nightie night, roger :-)

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Just have to post this from that article. It sounds so good:

    Millions of people took to the streets of over 1,000 cities across the world yesterday to protest against corporate greed and for a real global democracy.”

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy
  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Cindy, thanks for the link, there’s a fifteen minute clip from Warsaw.

    Amazing, Poland was a socialist country that was tired of socialism and enthused about “freedom” that comes with capitalism. It appeared to have embraced the system.

    Until today …

    But then again, the people’s struggle for independence and self-determination has always ingrained in the Polish psyche.

  • zingzing

    cindy: “(Z)ingzing? keyboard mishap?”

    was typing on work-issued, slave labor-produced ipad, which auto-corrects things and is generally annoying. to decapitalize would have been against my stated policy.

    shit blew up today (in good and bad ways), eh? rome was bad, but the burning was apropos, i guess.

    i’m getting more and more behind this, both because it’s growing, and because that which i’m against is showing more and more weakness. it’s gone beyond “we unhappy at the current situation” and has started to become “shit’s going to change.”

    no matter where it goes from this point, the financial industry knows people will only stand for so much shit, and the shit has gone too far. but do they know how to change? i dunno.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Take on Germany

  • Jordan Richardson

    Here’s what’s going on in 15 cities in Canada.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    The French are lukewarm, but it’s only to be expected.

    Anything that doesn’t originate with them, they tend to disparage.

  • Jordan Richardson

    The mother lode of Occupy Wall Street live streams, featuring streams from New York to Edinburgh.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Good find, Jordan.

  • Clavos

    And if you’re not part of the 1%, how soft is your head? Getting a bit squishy up there, is it?

    Possibly, zing.

    But I don’t think so.

    And I am looking out for my self interest…

  • Arch Conservative

    I see that neither BC nor the world is experiencing a dearth of verbose, moronic leftists.

  • zingzing

    clavos: “And I am looking out for my self interest…”

    only to a degree clavos. you can still be fucked over, no matter if there may be a few less in the yacht market. who knows, yachts may become even a more of a status symbol/makeup for the fact that the owner is old and his dick don’t work well enough for the trophy wife if your market decreases. and what if the slight tightening of incomes that this movement may produce actually increases your market? what then? choke the seas with your yachts, clavos…

  • zingzing

    archie: “I see that neither BC nor the world is experiencing a dearth of verbose, moronic leftists.”

    nor with meaningless rightists, archie. what’s the point?