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The America We All Want

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Is it possible for America to combine the two faces of capitalism and socialism responsibly and compassionately? The formation of a real third party might remedy the ongoing struggle and its resulting gridlock between the two opposing parties. Many believe that, not only is this possible, but that it is crucial to our survival as a nation!

Not since the great depression has the rent between the super-wealthy and the abject poor been this wide. The statistics that show the level of enjoyment for the rich simultaneously with the complete and utter loss of lifestyle for the impoverished and middle class in America are despicable, to say the least!

As ordinary Americans struggle with job loss, inadequate or no health care insurance coverage and the loss of opportunities to prosper in America due to outsourcing and staggeringly low wages, sales of luxury items appear to be down this year, but the wealthy are still accumulating vast amounts of wealth at an alarming rate. What is wrong with this picture? Plenty!

While the wealthy may feel a greater sense of guilt from this fact, their guilt does nothing to bridge the gap. The banks and Wall Street absolutely refuse to either pay back or loan money to small business and individuals, even after being bailed out by the taxpayers to the tune of four trillion dollars. Any action taken by the Obama administration to correct this selfishness is invariably seen as interference in the "free market!"

If this gridlock in Washington is not broken up soon, America will be bankrupt and owned by foreign investors. Is this really what we want?

So, with growing anger while watching the news, C-SPAN, and the “Party of No” fighting all proposals on the floor of the Senate, we, the American people have had enough! The Washington Journal’s morning call-in-show usually broadcasts a broad spectrum of voices. Now, the call for a third party in this country is rising up and can be heard loudly, even from little old ladies, let alone the left! Thomas Frank, columnist for the Wall Street Journal, has suggested that the current fiscal crisis is seen by the right as a way to keep domestic spending to a minimum, and that this was started by the deregulation and tax cuts for the wealthy brought by the Reagan, Clinton, and Bush 1 and 2 administrations.

While it appears the tea party participants are being given credence by the media and even Washington right now, they are definitely not our answer. The tea party rallies are made up of predominately white, conservative Americans with a grass roots look thanks to street crowds and conventions held in town halls and hotel banquet facilities.

Here is David Keene, talking about the Conservative Political Action Conference, the conservative agenda, the role of the tea party movement, and the future of the Republican Party. He is trying to help assure that this party will blend with and strengthen the already existing Republican Party. In a recent development, Sarah Palin has been replaced as a keynote speaker at the upcoming tea party convention by Washington Post conservative columnist, George Will.

So, while everything we hold dear appears to be slipping away for some Americans, while others are prospering as never before, we must all face this simple truth. We need a viable third party to bring some balance and to help end this two-way power struggle. The people demand it!

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About Jeannie Danna

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Jeannie –

    I enjoyed your article…and I suspect that the BC conservatives simply won’t get the point because they won’t see any support of ‘trickle-down economics’ or ‘profit motive’. They don’t see anything wrong with a vast gulf between the poor and the rich – to them, a country with a higher standard of living than America has must be socialist (and therefore ‘evil’) because the rich aren’t as obscenely rich as the billionaires are here in America.

    Government of the people, for the rich, and by the rich – that’s the conservative mantra…and woe betide any Republican who tries to stand up for someone in poverty against Big Business! They’ll be called ‘RINO’ and relegated to the lower depths.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Yes, it was a good article. I do have one reservation, however. If the teapartiers are so readily dismissed as the basis for forming a viable third party movement, where are the others going to come from?

    They’re the ones who, thus far, express the greatest discontent. The rest appear to be happy with the things that are – both those from the left or the right.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Far left protest gets almost no coverage whatsoever. It is marginalized but quite large and worldwide. It simply doesn’t fit into the Republican Democrat two-party model. The far left is calling for other measures.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Glenn,

    Thank-you for your comment and compliment.

    There are soo many problems in this country right now,, that it was difficult to pin-point what they really are.

    Although there are many, I came up with three that deserve some thought:

    1. The failed Reaganomics that have devastated this economy for most. Trickle
    down was just a theory, and we sadly, have been experimenting with our future prosperity for the last thirty years. Please read, Tear Down This Myth by Will Bunch, if you haven’t already, this book is a real eye-opener; It shows who, used Reagan’s presidency to further their agenda, and that, combined with Thomas Frank’s assertion that we are being placed in crisis, in-order to avoid social progress, is a real one-two-punch.

    2. I dare to speak the words, “Single-Payer” again; this would relieve us immediately, but, it is a scary-thought for those in the for-profit system. So, I wount yell.

    3. We need three parties in our political dialog, and, what is trying to pass itself off right-now at C-PAC for that third voice is not going to be heard by all of us. What we need now is inclusive voicesthat represent all of us. This right-wing apparition is just that,a ghost.

    :] Thanks!

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    I must agree with Roger regarding the establishment of any viable 3rd party. Cindy is correct that there is certainly as much discontent on the left as there obviously is on the right, but the tea baggers have pretty much usurped the lime light. It is the far right conservatives who are more apt to form a 3rd party at this juncture. They are, as a group getting themselves candidates on ballots in some states as we live and breathe.

    If the left coalesced into something resembling a party I would be very surprised. Neither the far right nor far left speak with one voice. There are any number of agendas being touted amongst both the left and right.

    I just can’t imagine, at this juncture, a 3rd party entity that would serve to break the deadlock in Washington. Such a party would have to come from the political center, a place currently held in contempt by many.

    Single payer? Yes.

    B

  • Baronius

    On the “Ideal Democracy” thread, I laid out a game theory argument why I can’t see a third party developing. No one pointed out a flaw in my argument (or said anything else about it, for that matter).

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    B,

    The media, appears to be really helping this movement.

    And, You are correct, there is a total disconnect among all groups , except for the right.

    My question to both of these points is, why?

    I still can’t believe that it will gain enough credence in the main-stream. Most people when asked, believe it is being driven by special-interests and the extreme-right-white-wing. and that, is what should stop it from forming.

    :\ Single-payer is not dead.

  • STM

    When will America realise that a bit of social engineering – wasn’t that what the founding fathers did?? – isn’t socialism.

    Universal health care isn’t socialism, for God’s sake.

    It’s a return for the bloody taxes you pay.

    And God knows, all Americans must want something a bit more helpful and tangible than a multi-trillion dollar defence budget.

    It’s your right to demand such things of a government (and your right to keep private health insurance too if that’s what you want … you don’t have to go the whole hog here)! But why remain stuck in the late 1700s? It’s the 21st century and America is being left behind. There are now a dozen or more countries ahead of the US on the world standard of living indexes.

    And stop confusing communism and socialism with the loose idea of community as it applies to the free-market capitalist system. Dozens of other places have done it and it’s only improved their standard of living, not reduced it.

    The two are completely different things.

    Looking after your own isn’t a socialist thing or a left-wing concept.

    If America wants to be regarded around the world as the compassionate bringer of democracy, it’s best to start at home: Do as I do (because it’s good), not do as I say because I say that’s the way it should be and no one else’s view counts.

  • STM

    As for the US Constitution, and the way it gets twisted around to suit whatever view happens to be the one you agree with, it was written by a bunch of old farts in the 18th century.

    It’s a document put together by ordinary men, clever old farts who admitted they couldn’t have got everything right.

    It’s not a message from God or the Holy Grail.

    At the time, the concepts contained in it weren’t even new. Most of it already applied to the colonies through common law, both native and inherited, BEFORE the revolution.

  • STM

    It’s a good piece of paper, but a piece of paper nevertheless. And it doesn’t claim to be anything else than a set of laws.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    STM,

    Your singing to the choir here!

    Look at the words they try to skew and control people with. Socialism…oooo so scared of it, that we die from the lack of the most basic rights. We should all have a little of what we have given in.

    It is just a word, and social progress will not make us communists.

    :] You are so right, and, I wish we could wake every body up!

  • STM

    Not aiming my flamer at you or your mates, Jeannie, but all the others who can’t work out that the world has changed, and if they want to be a part of it, things have to change accordingly in America too.

    Not just in Mr Obama’s Hope and Change rhetoric kind of way, either, but in genuine practical ways … like real universal health care and some sensible firearms control measures (not bans).

    Gee, that last one will make me even more popular.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    STM,

    I understood your comment. I get you, and, I wish everyone else did too, because,
    look at this pitiful excuse for a solution to our tax problems.

    :O You know what I say about taxes? pay em!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Well this old lady is going to sleep…don’t all cheer at once now!

    :] G-Day Stan!

  • Doug Hunter

    #12

    Really? Anyone that doesn’t agree with you ‘can’t be part of the world’. That’s a bit over the top.

    It’s a spectrum, you exist further towards one side than the average American. Like most everyone you think you’ve got a handle on what best for everyone else. You think we’re idiots, someone farther to your side looks back at you and thinks your a fucking moron, I’m far out whacky right but not near enough in some circles, and their are extremists on both ends who’d love to slit our throats or blow our brains out because we won’t submit to their ‘rightness’ and ‘truth’.

    I say live and let live (the basis of freedom) and you can be part of the world regardless of your beliefs, just don’t try and force them on me.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    “I say live and let live (the basis of freedom) and you can be part of the world regardless of your beliefs, just don’t try and force them on me.”

    Well, that’s all well and good, but “beliefs” have a way of manifesting themselves into action. Some good. Some not.

    We wouldn’t get much accomplished in this world if we didn’t share our beliefs and attempt by one means or another to apply them to our day to day lives.

    Actually, all things considered, we do actually manage to get along pretty well. We live together at some level or other. We work and play together. We learn together. We manage to drive a 3000 pound hunk of metal and plastic at 70 miles per hour sharing a roadway with literally thousands of other 3000 pound hunks moving as fast or faster than we are, most of the time without killing ourselves or each other. That’s fucking amazing!

    Through all of that we, as individuals, harbour certain beliefs about how we should all live. Some of that becomes our moral and ethical code. Some becomes law. Some of it gets us thrown in jail. Sharing and, yes, even “forcing” is sometimes necessary. It ain’t always pretty. Democracy isn’t always polite. Sometimes we get our noses bent, sometimes we do the bending. It’s all part and parcel to human life and interaction.

    B

  • STM

    Doug: “Really? Anyone that doesn’t agree with you ‘can’t be part of the world’. That’s a bit over the top.”

    C’mon Doug … that’s not what I said at all and certainly not what I meant.

    IMO, America’s getting passed by … it’s already quite a ways down on the various standard of living indexes (at least a dozen countries are now ahead of it), because while it’s very, very good for some, it’s very bad for a lot of others. That was probably OK while things were rosy, but the recent/current financial unpleasantness highlights a lot of those kinds of issues in the US.

    We have had stories in the mags and on TV here about slum camps of lean-to’s on the edges of American cities. That hasn’t happened since the Great Depression. There has to be a safety net of some kind.

    It’s not just about stuff like health care either. The federally mandated minimum wage in the US is about eight bucks an hour, for God’s sake, or a bit less, I think, with no protection provisions built in for penalty rates for working nights, weekends and public holidays or abitrary sackings on the whim of an employer.

    All I’m suggesting is that workers, the people who make the profits for business, get a slightly better share either through tax dollars or legislation that protects them – up to a point.

    In exchange, they can offer a trade-off for higher production.

    A loyal and happy workforce is a good workforce.

    There’s a nice balance somewhere between America’s pitiful eight bucks an hour and the kind of lunacy that had lazy people in lifetime jobs and doing bugger all eight hours a day in the old Soviet Union.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Doug Hunter,

    You wrote these words in your RE. #12

    I say live and let live (the basis of freedom) and you can be part of the world regardless of your beliefs, just don’t try and force them on me.

    The phrase,”Live and let live” would lend itself to intelligently and compassionately trying to figure a way to do this, for everyone.

    What we have in America today, more-closely resembles the saying, “Live and let Die.”

    I don’t think that you believe I see everyone in the Tea Party as white-supremacists. You should in turn, be able to see that everyone on the left side of you is not holding their hand out for a free ride.

    Let’s talk about that free-ride that anyone who might need help is accused of jumping on.

    Place yourself in the shoes of someone, anyone who has far less resources and opportunity than you. How would it feel? if you had, limited education, not enough to eat, unless the school or shelter where you were sleeping fed you.and when you tried to break out of this vicious cycle,you where told over and over that it was all your fault,because you were just lazy, “Go get a job!” and when you did, that job barely paid you, taxed you before handing you that pay-check, and provided no benefits or growth opportunity what-so-ever. So, you continued to worked and got no-where. Until you, gave up, got a different job which is like winning the lotto these days, were able to get an education, or died.

    Now, if you feel empathy towards your fellow-Americans, and I’m sure that you do, then you would see that social- justice is not wanting to interfere with your prosperity, or your personal life.

    Social justice would allow others in this nation to also-pursue, “The American Dream.”

    :] They, didn’t call it the “Dream” for nothing, as it still has not come-true.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baritone,

    I loved your description of hunks I of junk, driving down the road. :]

    But, this really jumped out at me:

    Through all of that we, as individuals, harbour certain beliefs about how we should all live. Some of that becomes our moral and ethical code. Some becomes law. Some of it gets us thrown in jail. Sharing and, yes, even “forcing” is sometimes necessary. It ain’t always pretty. Democracy isn’t always polite. Sometimes we get our noses bent, sometimes we do the bending. It’s all part and parcel to human life and interaction.

    To second your thought,

    This concept of “sharing the resources of our huge-countries-system.” does not make us socialists! or Communists!

    Now, I totally-agree with you here. We are, on the same page.

    :] That was like a re-tweet. Something that, I still can’t do!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    STM,

    I lost a friend in one of these, Robin, died in the middle of the night-apparently from exposure, and she had a job.

    We have had stories in the mags and on TV here about slum camps of lean-to’s on the edges of American cities. That hasn’t happened since the Great Depression. There has to be a safety net of some kind.

    :[ I try to write for those that can’t, even though, I-myself can’t write.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    Thank you for your comment and compliment on my article, I know that you read it, but did you also watch or look-up Thomas Frank?

    He really-inspired me here.

    When you asked this question, you must have realized the answer already, or at least part of it.

    They’re the ones who, thus far, express the greatest discontent. The rest appear to be happy with the things that are – both those from the left or the right.

    This movement is largely funded and driven by very-wealthy and powerful people and interest-groups.

    If you are watching, “The C-PAC Show” then you also can see all the major actors that they are using in-order to manipulate and sway public opinion.

    I worried the minute that I watched the likes of George Will as he took that stage and proceeded to play to an over-willing crowded room, full of people who wanted to hear exactly what he had to say. That was really easy for you, Mr. Will.

    Try speaking to people who would rather that you, shut-up, change your tune, or
    go away! :] This, describes almost every comment and article that I have written in this section.

    When you ask where is the left and imply that we are all happy with things as they are. Whom do you refer to?

    If you still watch Amy Goodman’s Democracy Now-the War and Peace report, then, you can see and hear many of them. Of course if you watch this C-span video with Thomas Frank,then towards the end you will hear all of the callers.

    There is not one section of this populace right-now, that is happy with the status quo. At least, not anyone under the top
    10%.

    And also, we do not have this huge-funded- machine driving us towards the left or even the middle.

    :] again, Thanks Roger.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Cindy,

    What are they calling for? This one-sided, for the most part, media appears to be backing the party all the way.

    I saw some sites when I was link-searching for this article, that showed the media block-out of single-payer. I think, that there is huge grain of truth here, because, every-time I try to bring a single-payer-link over it gets rejected by Askmit.

    :0 I thought that I was banned last week-end, and, I must have tried at least twenty-times to post that damn thing!

    :) Thanks for your comment!

  • STM

    Jeannie: “I lost a friend in one of these, Robin, died in the middle of the night-apparently from exposure, and she had a job.”

    That is sad Jeannie. We have homeless people here too of course, but there are some reasonable safety nets. It just worries me that in the US these days, too many people are ending up homeless because of the economic situation.

    I understand all the arguments – that people put themselves in difficult circumstances, don’t exercisrresponsibility in their own lives, etc etc – but there are all kinds of reasons people end up in these situations, often because of circumstances out of their control, and I can’t help feeling that in America, the place I was told as I was growing up was inherently good and for that reason was a friend of this country, it’s just not right.

    Keep writing Jeannie.

    I know that a little bit of social engineering, decent health care for everyone, a government legislating for wages and work conditions that actually allow people to live, and safety nets that really look after the vulnerable can co-exist happily with free-market capitalism and people making a decent buck for their enterprise.

    It’s just a nonsense to believe it can’t.

    If it can’t, why does it work here, and in Europe??

    I don’t see any erosion of my rights, either. Actually, I think they’ve added a few: the right to a living wage; the right not to have to go bankrupt trying to pay for health care.

    And when it comes to reasonable controls on the easy availability of guns, what about the rights of people who don’t have them? Like the right not to have lunatics taking pot shots at you with automatic weapons?

    I dunno, but sometimes I think that the kind of Americans who will bang on endlessly about rights to support a certain point of view have got everything arse about a lot of the time.

    I realise that’s a controversial view in the US that will likely see me branded a “liberal”, but here it won’t – because I’m not.

    I just believe in a fair and just society.

    That doesn’t mean I’m all namby pamby on crime, terrorism, or that I’m a soft-touch bleeding heart.

    None of the above. The chardonnay socialist/liberal label doesn’t sit comfortably with me and especially I don’t much like people I think might fall into that category because they think it’s trendy.

    As I’ve said before, most of the views I have that some Americans might think are “left” and which I think are just “normal” have come from a lifetime of getting my hands dirty, paying my taxes, having a mortgage, putting my kids through school, working six days a week to support a family … paying my way.

    But I don’t see how that and having some compassion for those not as well off can be seen as mutually exclusive.

    Which is why I really resent certain people on this site who love the socialist, communist, liberal, left-wing labels. It’s just rhetoric, with no thought behind it. It seems really selfish, too.

    Believing in community and the right of people to live a decent life in my view are just normal things.

    And I suppose when it comes to healthcare, I don’t mind paying an extra $1000 in tax a year so that others who aren’t so lucky can have the same kind of care as me. I assume the bulk of my countrymen feel the same because no one’s jumping up and down about it.

    If that’s being a bleeding heart, then let it keep bleeding, I say.

    But I know what I am, and what I am not :)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Good comment, Jeannie. Of course the extreme Left is dissatisfied – and this includes me (and I think Cindy, too) for this administration not going far enough. But most dissatisfaction that’s not ideologically driven still has to do with dismal unemployment figures. Whatever has been done did not produce the needed results.

    You can look up the link I posted on the “Unemployment” article from Huffington Post. I kind of tells the whole story and how I feel about the subject.

  • Mark

    I’d say that the Administration’s policies have produced exactly the results needed by ‘the system’ so far — a large surplus labor force that effectively puts pressure on the workforce to increase productivity at no added expense, for example. This is called ‘improving the business environment’. Kudos to Obama and his crew.

  • STM

    Mark, do you really think that’s down to the government rather than the shysters on Wall Street who came this close *pinches thumb and forefinger together and holds it up* to bringing the global economy to complete collapse?

    Maybe that’s where the fingers should be pointed. And for a few years yet.

    The price of freedom after all is eternal vigilance. Lest we forget.

  • Mark

    I think that it’s a Grand Collaboration…

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    STM,

    I think I shake things up a bit here, and honest to God, even, I can’t believe some of things that have come out of my mouth!

    When I think of helping America, I don’t wake up and say, “Today I’m going to become a Socialist!” because, I am actually an independent voter with-out a voice.

    I loved George Carlin! That man had the “gonads” to stand-up to the powers-that-be. He was a word-smith, in the true sense of the word. He pointed out to us, over and over again, that it is by manipulating our language, that we can truly be controlled. All of the laws and big-government you can stomach, will never do the damage that demonizing one little word has done!

    I am, an INDEPENDANT-LIBERAL, and damn proud of it!

    :] I just had to say that!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    Your link didn’t post in your comment. Can you do it again?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Rather dismal view of things Mark (#25).
    Do you really thing that Obama is an unwitting agent of such a horrendous conspiracy scheme? That would put you in the ranks of such as Pablo.

    I’d be inclined to think not in terms of “grand collaboration” but rather in terms of lack of vision and the thing we call inertia.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I didn’t post the link, Jeannie. You can jump the threads and transport it if you like.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    MaRk,

    Is that what you think my article is? or Are you speaking of other-things…

    :] hello there.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    Never mind, then. I’ve done enough jumping around here.

    :]I’m staying right where I am.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I’ll see you all after, breakfast, if you are still here.

    :)

  • Mark

    A major trick for Obama and his successor will be to deal with/suppress the social unrest that accompanies periods of long term high unemployment such as that which is predicted for the US.

    Invest in bulldozers and water cannons.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    That I do foresee. The social unrest is not going away.

    Which in a way proves my point: these people are morons, not clever manipulators.

  • Mark

    jeannie, I don’t think that there are solutions in the ballot box — similar to taking communion, in my view. An act that lends legitimacy to a corrupted system.

    Third, fourth and fifth parties, while adding color, will not address the underlying problem — the bidnes of g’ment is bidnes.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Solutions will emerge, and in a painful way, after the system’s collapse.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    you meant “bidness,” no?

  • Mark

    Rog, you seem to imply that there were actions that the administration(s) could have taken that would have prevented the ‘correction’ in the labor force. What would they have been?

  • Mark

    me and my spelling…I meant ‘bidnez’

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    A radical program from the get-go, something akin to measures undertaken by FDR further down the line, for example, as per the following article by Arianna.

    I’m not saying that it would necessarily produce the needed results, but public perception would be different.

    But you’re suggesting that it’s all part of a horrendous plan. I think it’s more a matter of human inertia coupled with the usual amount of fumbling.

  • Mark

    (Though your correct, Rog #39. Rent happens.)

  • Mark

    No ‘horrendous plan’, Rog; merely profit maximization. That’s supposed to work for all, or so the theory goes.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Perhaps “postpone (the inevitable)” is a better way of putting it – if you believe, that is, that the system is heading for eventual collapse.

    I do.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Is that the administration’s understanding of things? Profit maximization on behalf of which people? Obama and his cronies?

    So either he is a conscious agent, a willing accomplice and a liar – or rolled into one – or just a pawn, a mere figurehead, and a dupe to boot.

    Take your pick!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I failed to mention one other alternative – a sell-out. Now you have a full range, or do you really?

  • Mark

    A true believer.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Let me complete the gamut, so that you’re response will be informed by all possibilities.

    Why not simply say that for all the good intentions on the part of some politician – and I’m willing to include Mr. O in that group – there is no fix and that the force of historical events, rather than mere women and men, will carry the ball forward.

    So yes, I’d rather take the high road and believe that even (some) politicians are capable of being honorable, but no longer to good avail.

    In short, I’d rather believe that we are quickly approaching a randezvous with history, a randezvous not of our of making but just as impending for the fact; and that all human responses at the moment are doomed to be inadequate; only the unveiling future will point the way.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    A believer in the dying system?

  • Mark

    I don’t know, Rog #49. We’ll see whether this crisis re-escalates into a general crisis, or production muddles on to the next one. Depends on how big the public money bubble can expand without bursting, I guess.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    He’s a believer in the dominant system.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Jeannie,

    The left I hang with are not interested in fixing Capitalism. They are interested in creating a new paradigm based on equality, freedom, valuing humanness and not money.

    (morning Jeannie :-)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, I happen to think we’re beyond the realm of competence anymore or good or bad intentions. Things come to a point beyond which they’re no longer fixable. Postponing the inevitable oftentimes is the only option left to humans.

    But then again, this is not exactly an idiosyncratic view of history.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #52 – only to the extent he believes it to be the right one (not in the sense that it exploits blacks, women, the poor).

    In which case, you can’t really blame him for being “a true believer.” It’s a matter of vision and expanded consciousness/understanding. And those things don’t just come to a person on a dime. It’s a process, and it differs from person to person – and that’s providing they try to be open-minded. Which is to say, we each have a different timeline.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Here Jeannie, something to consider about what a new paradigm might be more like. The Evilness of Power: An Examination of the Effects of Power and Hierarchy

    “Not only is another world possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing.” -Arundhati Roy

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Well, think about what you were reading with Foucault. Relate to Obama through that analysis of power.

  • Mark

    (oh shit — the ‘f’ word)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Isn’t the case that even true believers are victims of the system?

  • Mark

    Of course, though Obama and his family appear to be eating well.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    That’s not F’s notion of “victimhood.”

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    There is no conspiracy necessary in maintaining the power system–it is what we have been indoctrinated (can you bear that word?) to do. It’s what we learn to do automatically. The culture gives us that. To do something else is what takes effort.

  • Mark

    No? – Well, it’s part of mine.

  • Mark

    #62 ‘collaboration’ is a better describes the situation than ‘conspiracy’.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #62, I never argued otherwise. Still, not everyone is on the same page. So perhaps he should read some postmodernist thinkers, but until he does he’s just an actor on stage as are most others.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    64 – Yes. Thanks, that works much better.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, yes. But in that case you can accuse almost everyone for not being acquainted with postmodernist thought.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    67 – So, is the problem you’re having accusation? Okay, see if this makes sense.. Obama doesn’t really mean to really be continuing to blow up children in Afghanistan…or protect the state power to invade privacy or keep people imprisoned with no rights, or continue a system that jails people and especially immigrants for money, and maintains a brutal stance toward anyone who does not have financial wherewithal. He doesn’t means to be propping up a war industry that likes wars and murder because they can buy yachts with the profits. He doesn’t mean to do that stuff and more. But he is doing that.

  • Mark

    Well, it’s not exactly like postmodernist thinkers are not doing their part in this whole (re)production. Thus, having read F will not stop me from rendering unto Caesar… and, thereby, do my part in blowing up those kids.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    yes…we are all in this together…

  • Mark

    A Grand Collaboration

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    *copies down #69 to write on the bathroom mirror later*

    (or maybe 71 would be less messy)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger, Cindy, and MaRk,

    Through all of your rallying cries for social-justice, and, an end to the terrible in-justice you are living with right now, I don’t see even one word here, that would really identify one of you, with the far left.

    Please, do not take this as an insult.

    I have a life, as do all of you; am I correct?

    Then why, aren’t each of you trying to get-in-there and fight for real-tangible solutions?

    In my opinion, this conversation about tearing-down the system, because it’s broken beyond repair, is bullshit.

    We have a world, and that world has been woven here for many years by many people who died for it. The thought of starting from scratch can only really happen, if we all secede with Sarah Palin and the Teas. That’s not going to happen.

    I’m sorry, but, you all need to use your inormous-intellects to fight the people that are really holding this country back, from actually solving, homelessness, the end of all these preemptive wars, and the health-care-crisis-brought on by for-profit-health-care.

    The people who are trying hold all of us here, in this hellish-limbo, are not The Obama Administration.

    :O Start fighting to end Reaganomics, that’s what got us here.

    :o When I say enormous-intellects, that’s a real compliment. You guys really are smart. I hope this doesn’t go over, like a lead balloon!

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Jeannie,

    I recommend you take the time to watch the video I posted above (you too Roger). At the risk of being a nag…I have to say it spells out an awful lot.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I was confused about the spelling of that word, so I placed both of them in there.

    Enormous should have been the correct choice.

    :[

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I will Cindy, right after I collect some more energy.

    :] I love learning!

  • pablo

    30 Roger

    “Do you really thing that Obama is an unwitting agent of such a horrendous conspiracy scheme? That would put you in the ranks of such as Pablo”

    And what rank would you be in Roger? I would say the extremely naive rank, since you do not believe that Obama is an agent, I just happen to believe that he is a WITTING agent as opposed to an unwitting one bro. You enjoy your naivete Rog, and I will stick to my realism.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Pablo,

    I do hope, that you read my article. I think it speaks to a lot of our current problems.

    :]and, it’s not Obama.

  • pablo

    Here is an audio clip of one of my favorite coinspiracists Alan Watt talking about the CFR (Council on Foreign Relations) mp3 stream.

    CFR and Foundations, Devourers of Nations

  • John Lake

    Everyone talks about Socialism. Neo-Socialism in the right hands may be an only solution. In the wrong hands, at some future time, it could cause trouble.
    Point of interest:
    A major part of “fascism” (very evil word) is “militaristic expansionism”. If we invade Iraq, take all the assets we can grab (their working capital on a skid), forcefully install an American-friendly government for the Iraqis, if we promote Democratization, in spite of all our faults, this seems to me darned close to fascism.
    On the issue of the third party: the idea may have merit, but this is surely the wrong time. With the investments of clandestine groups in American government, and the encouragement of those investments by a Supreme Court — a Court we recall whose makeup is strongly influenced by sitting presidents — the American people, struggling for breath and hoping for freshness and change might find themselves voting for more deceit, and more corruption. As I see it, the call for a third party is simply a call for more profiteering, and more corruption.
    We may be at a decisive time in our history. We know from history that theories of social structure, like governments, rise and fall.
    Iran is now moving from democracy to authoritarianism.
    And the Iraqi Shiites are having new and enlightened discussion with the Iranian Shiites, thus developing some new allegiances.
    We need responsibility and objectivity from the two party system, and increased morality from the tri-lateral system of checks and balances.
    There are issues in the 21st century world far more important than corporate profit, and pointless wealth

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Pablo, there is a video in the sidebar of my blog you might like called, The American Ruling Class. I though it was brilliant.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    It sort of features the CFR at one point.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    I personally don’t believe there is any great conspiracy going on in government or between business and government. It is, however, as I see it, a symbiotic relationship which lends mutual, if at times, mindless support.

    Some people have read too many fictions that depict a world controlled by some nefarious crazy or some evil, self-serving group – ala Bilderberg or Davos.

    It’s simply a system that has built up over the years which, as has been suggested, is just too big and too complex for any individual or group to get a handle on.

    Virtually every pol who campaigns against the current system claims he or she is going to barrel into Washington and shake things up, by god! Only incumbants keep that rhetoric to a minimum.

    No freshman congressperson is going to make even the slightest wave of disruption. They may try – even valiantly – but by and large, such efforts are quickly rebuffed while the newby is afforded lessons in how the system works, and how she or he will be little more than tangential to its workings for some years to come. Evan Bayh has understood this for some time and finally chose to give up the fight.

    The system may collapse as many of you here are predicting. If so, it will succumb to its own weight, its own complexity.

    I believe few, if any, people REALLY understand how it all works – or doesn’t work – as the case may be. Some have figured out how to play the system here and there, but their understanding is most often limited to their particular niche – to their little corner of the Beltway world.

    That’s why I don’t believe in any grand conspiracy. No one – not even the richest captains of industry and/or government understand enough of it all to have the kind of knowledge required to direct such an endeavor.

    It’s appealing and perhaps in some way personally satisfying to believe such things are afoot, but that hardly makes it true.

    A lot has been said here on this and other threads – much of it productive as I see it. We each have our view of what’s happening, its consequences and perhaps, how to avoid or forestall those consequences. Maybe something good can come from all this discussion. At least feelings and ideas are getting an airing here in cyberspace. Some of it could stick in the world of brick and steel, blood and paper.

    B

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    We shall not get into a shouting argument, Pablo, of that I can guarantee you.

    Cindy and Mark,

    What you’re suggesting, then – it’s the inevitable conclusion of your reasoning process – is that everyone is a willful perpetrator of “evil deeds” if they don’t subscribed to the most enlightened political philosophy. That’s a rather extreme proposition, even allowing for the reality of self-deception,

    Why not just say that they’re “true believers” – in the sense that we three are, and in the same sense that Pablo is – in that they put national interests ahead of what we all regard as more important concerns. (Recall, Cindy, the positions by such as Baker from the movie about the ruling classes: he really believes what he is saying.)

    Which doesn’t of course mean they’re right – only that they are, shall we call? sincere. At least some of them are. For me to contradict that would mean being able to see into a person’s heart, and no one can do that.

    So it seems we have to separate the question regarding persons’ states of mind and questions concerning right or wrong. And I was addressing only the latter.

    Besides, the radical perspective you’re offering as to persons’ states of mind runs contrary to the spirit of Foucault’s writings – for we are not dealing, necessarily, with “evil people” in each and every instance power relations are instantiated, but with people who, just as the rest of us, or most of us, I should rather say, are perpetuating the same power schema and power paradigm whether knowingly or not, and regardless of where we fit along the subjection-domination spectrum.

    Again, Foucault did not call exactly for a kind of religious conversion (taken here to mean turning people away from their evil ways) – although a kind of religious conversion is involved here one way or another as part of the program – but more so for making people understand the paradigm they tend to perpetuate; and once the understanding sets in, to hopefully disengage from participation and devise means of escape, if possible.

    That’s the self-transformation that Foucault called for, first in the enlightened thinker, and then in terms of spreading the message. An abusive husband and compliant wife, both are victims of the same subjection-domination scheme. And just as the wife needs to understand the toxic nexus she’s part of in order to rise above it, the same could be said (in some cases at least) of the abusive husband, because he, too, it’s arguable, “knows no better.”

    Consequently, the call for self-transformation and ridding oneself of the oppressive schema is not just a call to “liberate” the victim. It’s also a call to liberate “the oppressor.” Both parties suffer from the same pathology.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    A major part of “fascism” (very evil word) is “militaristic expansionism”. If we invade Iraq, take all the assets we can grab (their working capital on a skid), forcefully install an American-friendly government for the Iraqis, if we promote Democratization, in spite of all our faults, this seems to me darned close to fascism.

    U.S. has been doing this from the beginning. See John Stockwell, former CIA operative on the CIA’s 3rd world war. That is a short video.

  • pablo

    Oh dear me, was I shouting Roger?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Figure of speech, Pablo.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    *thinking about that Roger*

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Perhaps to cap it more succinctly, Cindy and Mark, liberation (from the paradigm, I hasten to say, and transformation are to be attained through persons – which is to say, through devising alternative networks and model for human relations.

    And one can hardly make any kind of headway here if one is predisposed to regard “the other” as necessarily “the evil enemy.”

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Thinking is always good.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Roger, remind me, which one is Baker?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Towards the end of the program, the ex Secretary of State.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    89 – It is just a factual description, Roger. We are all participating in something. Our participation is through agreement and as we do this it perpetuates the thing.

    I am not sure Mark made that an ‘enemy’ thing. That sounds more like something I do.

    (I’ve recognized lately, I have this compulsion to try people by fire.)

    (Still thinking about the other post.)

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Blind agreement (blindspots) is still agreement.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I don’t think I can emotionally deal with just seeing Baker as innocent.

    In some sense a serial killer is innocent, a solider who tortures is innocent, etc. We all started out innocent, then something happened to us.

  • Mark

    …everyone is a willful perpetrator of “evil deeds” if they don’t subscribed to the most enlightened political philosophy.

    …and, in most cases, if they do.

    “We have met the enemy”,etc.

    Sincerity’s often got nothing to do with it.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Of course it is. But that’s a factual question I am not presently concerned with. All I’m trying to do is to make a distinction between the facts of the case – what actually is transpiring – and people’s motivations. And I suggest we can’t be as certain of the latter that either of you seem to suggest.

    Besides, it would be counterproductive to assume bad faith on the part of everyone who is the exponent of the dominant culture – for in that case, “conversion” is out of the question. Instead, the only choice open to one is direct rebellion – a course of action, mind you, Foucault does not recommend.

    What I believe is presenting a major obstacle here is that you, like most people, are keen on your thinking confirm you in your beliefs. The relationship should go the other way around. Abandon or suspend your beliefs and your sentiments, your emotions in need be, and let your thinking point you in new directions.

    Understand I’m not criticizing you here. It’s just something I have noticed, something rather prevalent about the way you usually proceed and attack various problems.

    If I speak out of turn, let me know and I’ll shut up.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Yes, Mark, but we’ve still got to deal with people, not with systems.

  • Mark

    Rog #89, I agree.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Is everyone who “oppresses” the same as the money-lender in the temple? Perhaps not.

    And if not, perhaps there is a need here to make relevant distinctions, if only from the standpoint of adopting the correct strategy.

    I suppose what I’m driving at is that not everyone is equally complicit.

    But then again, one may argue that my insistence on fairness is altogether misplaced, that it’s irrelevant when it comes to “grander things.”

    Well, let me ask then: What is grander than a person?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    …people’s motivations. And I suggest we can’t be as certain of the latter that either of you seem to suggest.

    Well, I think it is not a matter of intent or motivation or bad faith.

    I have to think about why this is important to you. This idea of blame. If something works a certain way it does, Doesn’t seeing that have any value? One can have the best intent and motivations and do harm. It’s very important to know that. Every time I forget it, I become in danger of thinking I can relax a bit.

    It isn’t just about them, it’s about me. That is who I can do something about.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    John Lake,

    You’re first.

    Is this a trivializing of my article, or, are you saying, that we all should forget the fact, the right-wing is attempting to re-invent itself right now with their own tax-cutting brand of Tea?

    I am trying very-hard to point to the language, that has gotten us to this point in time.

    If you understood, from where I came, then you would realize that I am as American as you. I do not wish to over-throw the government, sorry guys, don’t take this wrong! turn America into a Communist state, or let Reaganomics drive that final nail through all of us.

    The most unpopular phrase, that you will ever hear, comes from my mouth, “Pay your taxes!”

    :] I warned all of you, I have a big mouth!

  • Mark

    So, who said anything about ‘equally complicit’?

    I’m guess one could come up with a scale of complicity from 1 to 10 if that would help. But what’s the point?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Lest you misunderstand what I said in #97, Cindy, I don’t mean suspending the overarching emotion to be the force for justice and fairness and equality. That always ought to be the bedrock, the basis from which all enlightened thinking ought to spring.

    What I do mean perhaps is your commitment to seeing the world in a certain way and yes, if I be permitted to add, to right it, but in your idea by righting it I discern an element of taking revenge. Perhaps that’s what I was getting at.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    97 – I don’t know what you mean but we can talk about that in the other thread. I think it would be uncomfortable here.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    The point is that we have to work with people. And that different people call for different strategies. If we don’t recognize the different scales and gradations, we’re clumsy.
    That’s where honesty comes in.

    You surely don’t address every person on BC in the exact same way. I know i don’t. I work with what’s available to me, trying not to overreach lest I lose them forever. That wouldn’t serve any purpose, would it.

    We’re dealing with children. And we’ve got to bring them around slowly at times, at other times more rapidly. Every situation is different.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    No problem, Cindy.

    I am an open book, at least I try to be.

  • Clavos

    Mark,

    me and my spelling…I meant ‘bidnez’

    Is very funny…I really like your brand of humor.

    Props, my friend…

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    We often say that we believe “evil” exists in the world. Some equate evil with satan or the like.

    I doubt that many people – even those considered the most heinous – ever think of themselves as being evil. Humans are masters of rationalization. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and Osama no doubt believe(d) they were the good guy – that even the most abhorant means were or are justified by the ends.

    I really don’t believe even the crustiest old farts in government or in other venues of world power are inherently evil. Many of their deeds are perceived by many to be evil in the sense that those deeds result in disruption, destruction and death. But that also describes the result of the Haitian earthquake. Are plate techtonics evil?

    The intent of most people is to do good – good for themselves, good for a defined group, or occasionally, the world at large. An earthquake has no “intent.” But the intent of people who often suffer from limited intelligence or limited vision winds up costing people their health, welfare and sometimes their lives.

    What we are attempting to do is martial our intent to bring about a fairer and more just society while doing the least harm in the process. We just haven’t very often really got it right. We succeed in baby steps.

    B

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baritone,

    I want to believe the same, but I can’t, when I look at what is happening right now.

    That’s why I don’t believe in any grand conspiracy. No one – not even the richest captains of industry and/or government understand enough of it all to have the kind of knowledge required to direct such an endeavor.

    Dick Cheney has been in the White House since Ford, and he is still trying to call the shots behind closed doors. That’s probably why I scan this computer this much! He most likely has run his course now, since, he appears to be so desperate.

    But, if we don’t take back some of the safety-nets that used to protect us, then, they win and we will all be in the bread-lines again.

    :]I’m not a nut.
    You are right, that all this blogging, writing, and protesting probably will not make a bit of difference in the end, but, we all have to try.

    We all, have to keep trying.

    :] I’m not a nut.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Cindy,

    Please, don’t be uncomfortable.

    :0 Is it the word taxes?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Clavos,

    Did you read my article?

    ;)Say something!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Cindy,

    The idea of people’s motivation is important insofar as your relation the them is concerned.

    Aside from the rather simple matter of being just or unjust, there’s also a matter of strategy, if your intent is – as it should be – to bring some of them “around” if you happen to believe they’re astray.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Cindy, I’m going to watch #56, now.

    :) I’ll be back.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    B – You may wish to have a look at the video in #56. It actually mentions something about our perceptions of evil in a similar way as you do but more elaborated.

    Jeanie – Very Cool. :-)

    Roger – I know you are just making an analogy that I can relate to there, but let me say that I don’t bring children along. I always try to relate to them with the utmost respect. O often learn a lot from them. I only see the need to interfere with them when adults ‘wack-them-out’ (said gently and with mild amusement) and they start engaging in such things as screaming at their parents or trying to dominate everyone in sight, or fighting, bullying, wreaking havoc, etc.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    113 – I don’t think we can ‘bring people around’. People change themselves. I think we can maybe provide some thing someone chooses, be in the right place at the right time. We can just be who we are and people who need us will find what they need in us.

    That is all I think we can do.

  • Mark

    #116 sounds about right to me.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Cindy,

    I’m still watching this, I have it paused right now, because I wanted to say something.

    I saw some of this a while ago, and much of it is very-painful, because it does hit home.

    But,

    Obama/Biden, while they might not be perfect, are still a hell of a lot better than, we would have had right-now, if McCain/Palin had won.

    :O I wish we could all run away and drink from a stick, but we can’t! That’s all, I’ll be back…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, “bring around” is more ambitious than I meant to communicate.

    Still, not everyone is a “money changer” and different situations call for different measures. Again, you be be clumsy or artful. You can either make impact or contribute to further estrangement.

    To say we can’t change people is not the same thing as saying we shouldn’t be cognizant of what we’re up against.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Roger,

    It is mere coincidence, I’m sure. But, in that video in #56, Roger, at about 16:00 in Noam Chomsky actually takes your question and answers it pretty well.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I’ll go with what he said on that. It sounds about right to me.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Jeannie,

    Yes, me too. I voted for Obama, Jeannie, and campaigned for him. I didn’t want McCain/Palin to win either. I was so depressed by the wars that I just wanted some minimum relief for people and some chance that there would be a person who could be pressured by the population.

    We may not be able to go back to drinking from a stick. But perhaps we can apply that sort of humanness/humaneness that is represented by the people there, to our contemporary world. By relating to each other as if we were human. ;-)

    What do you think?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I think for myself, Cindy, thank you.

    People are in different states of readiness. It’s plain stupid to treat everyone the same. Each need a different kind of cultivation. Just think of children and how each is an individual.

    You don’t just throw a seed into the ground and expect it to germinate. You’d better make certain the ground has been prepared if you expect to reap. An unirrigated dessert is not likely to result in harvest.

    True, Christ’s parable of seed-sowing sort of absolves us of all responsibility of being good harvesters or fishers of men. Still, I don’t think it implies that we ought to be stupid.

    One shouldn’t cast pearls before the swine, not before the swine is ready.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Cindy,

    I want to believe that Roger was not referring to me, as swine? I mean, I know people don’t like to hear someone telling them to pay their taxes, but come on now. it wasn’t that bad.

    :) I’m am trying very hard to keep an open-mind today.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    I do want to ask you directly about your last comment over here. What did you mean by the swine reference?

    I am perfectly capable of complex thought. If you don’t like what I write or say, fine. But, that little dig is not going to be left hanging out on the end of this thread.

    That is something you-know-who would say.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    I do want to ask you directly about your last comment over here. What did you mean by the swine reference?

    I am perfectly capable of complex thought. If you don’t like what I write or say, fine. But, that little dig is not going to be left hanging out on the end of this thread.

    That is something you-know-who would say.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    124 – No he wasn’t calling you a swine, Jeannie. He wasn’t actually speaking about you or anyone in particular. We were talking about influencing people, in general. I imagine he was picturing someone who was greedy and unempathetic or someone he’d likely be on the opposing end of a debate with. That’s just my conceptualization. He’ll speak for himself.

    He’s perturbed at me Jeannie. That is what you are seeing.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Cindy,

    OMG, I was ready to have an avalanche here!

    You posted just in time!

    :) Thanks, it was a good day here, wasn’t it?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Cindy,

    I am thin-skinned. That is what I’m learning to control. I need to let words roll off of me.

    I liked that video, we saw bits an pieces of it already, and, Noam Chomsky, he can speak for all of us! That’s OK in my book.

    :]Cindy, You have a brilliant voice. bye for now, because I am really tired…thank you.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Yes, it was a great day, Jeannie! :-)

    Have a good rest.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I took the trouble to see the video that is on Cindy’s blogspot about the evil of hierarchy in society, and knowing Cindy and her sympathies, I waited.

    And my waiting paid off after a while.

    Around the 48 minute mark of the 90 minute video we see the tears for the “poor Arabs” shed all over the “Democracy Now” video. “Arabs – How Hollywood villifies a people” – by Jack Shaheen

    Watch this video and see how “civil” these “poor Arabs” are – in “your America”.

    There wasn’t a peep in this video about the girl stoned to death in an honor killing in Turkey or the honor killings that occur with greater and greater frequency across the United State – your America. There was not a peep about the real death and terror sown by Arabs in your country and against Americans world-wide.

    NO.

    There was just a lot of whining.

    Perhaps if I didn’t live in a country where Arab terror is endemic and a mortal and existential threat to all of us living in Israel, I might be more sympathetic. But, if I walk beyond my village gate down the back road to get the the village of ‘Eli, I take my life in my hands. The same holds true for my younger son, who will be inducted into the army here.

    A few minutes ago I watched him doing exercises to get himself fit and in shape so that when he is inducted for basic training, it will not be a terrible strain upon him.

    He doesn’t really have a choice about serving in that army. It does a great deal of evil against Israelis, whom it should protect. But at bottom, it protects us against an Arab enemy sworn to murder us off like dogs, pigs and monkeys.

    That is a reality I cannot forget – and for that reason, I have NO sympathy for the dehumanization of people who have sworn my death. They want me dead – let them die.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Ruvy,

    When will this, eye-for-an-eye-end?

    :[Did you read my article? and,What did you think of it?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I read the article, Jeannie, and couldn’t figure out where you were going with it. But on the other hand, the longer I stay away from the States, the less relevant the States is to me, and the harder it is for me to identify with its problems. So, unless the article is crystal clear as to where it is going, I have trouble identifying with what’s in it.

    I have a whole series of uncomfortable questions for you.

    1. If the two big parties in the States are really controlled by the élites who would rob you of your life and love acting with the mentality of psychopaths, why should a third weaker party succeed?

    2. If the élites control your society so much that the average person cannot see that working to his satisfaction is better than shopping, how are you going to wrest control from these élites without a violent revolution – which itself will be run by an élite?

    I have other uncomfortable questions, but neither the time to compose them, nor the time to type them up here. I have to get to J-lem to do patrol duty.

    As for ending the eye for an eye in the Middle East, it will end when we are forced to attack the Arabs and their allies – and bring them to the point where they have to beg for their lives on their hands and knees, as they would do to us in Israel – before slaughtering us in an orgy of blood. Only when the Arabs and their allies have to beg for their lives on their hands and knees will war end here.

    As much as I would like to see one, THERE IS NO ROAD TO PEACE HERE. Full stop.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Ruvy,

    I know where I’m going with this article, that is why I wrote it.

    We need a combination of social-justice and capitalism.

    My premise here should be crystal-clear to you, but then, you just said for the millionth-time that, you don’t care for America anymore. So, forget about this article, I’ll write more, until you see my point.

    Ruvy, I am sorry for all of your war and bloodshed. It breaks my heart whenever I read or see that another life has been lost over-there, Israeli or Palestinian.

    :[ Be safe, and, move back here. Then, I could really bug you!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    This comment is for everybody,

    Have you ever stopped to think about WHY you have the political beliefs and values you do?

    Where did they come from?

    Are they simply your own ideas or have you been influenced by others in your thinking?

    Political scientists call the process by which individuals acquire their political beliefs and attitudes “political socialization.”

    The meaning of this word, SOCIALIZATION:

    ” What people think and how they come to think it is of critical importance to the stability and health of popular government. The beliefs and values of the people are the basis for a society’s political culture and that culture defines the parameters of political life and governmental action.

    Political Culture:

    America’s political culture is deeply rooted in this nation’s revolutionary roots. The pronouncement in the Declaration of Independence that “all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness” is the bedrock of American political belief.

    As the Declaration further states,

    Americans generally believe that the purpose of government is to “secure these rights” and that the government derives its “just powers from the consent” of the people.

    Now, if you are an elitist, then this doesn’t sit-so-well, does it?

    Because in-order for you and yours to have more, everybody else has to have less.

    Well, I’m really-tired of this theory that is professed by the GOP and Conservative movements in this country.

    :]I am going to continue to write, until my fingers fall off, or, until Clavos has a nervous break-down, which-ever comes first!

  • Baronius

    Ruvy –

    “If the two big parties in the States are really controlled by the élites who would rob you of your life and love acting with the mentality of psychopaths, why should a third weaker party succeed?”

    Priceless.

  • Baronius

    Jeannie –

    “Because in-order for you and yours to have more, everybody else has to have less.”

    More and less what? Not rights. Not wealth. Power, I guess. But that wouldn’t jibe with your next sentence,

    “Well, I’m really-tired of this theory that is professed by the GOP and Conservative movements in this country.”

    So what are you referring to?

  • Mark

    Interesting question, Baronius. Is the acquisition of power, unlike wealth, a zero sum game?

  • Clavos

    Because in-order for you and yours to have more, everybody else has to have less.

    Presupposes a finite amount of “more,” which, historically, has not been the case.

    Classic liberal “scarce” thinking.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #140,

    Why not wealth as well?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Are we talking about luxury goods or the basics?

  • Mark

    Because the level of production (of the individual or the group) is variable. It’s capitalist production that has shown us that we can ‘feed the world’ if we want to and that the scarcity thinking that Clavos refers to is bogus. (Though it is the premiss and first sentence of most Intro to Economics books.)

    That’s not to claim that capitalist accumulation isn’t driven by a zero sum logic.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    So you did answer my first question in closing. Power and wealth as objects of pursuit do not differ then in the mentioned respect.

    As to Clavos’s characterization, perhaps we should amend it therefore to read: “classic conservative ‘scare’ thinking.”

  • STM

    Why is that some people think in order for more people to have more, some people have to have less, or at least lose some of what they’ve got?

    That is a nonsense. The rich can be as rich as they like, but in a fair and just society, the gap between rich and poor closes.

    No one should be arguing that the rich should be less rich. It’s not wrong to acquire wealth.

    It’s wrong to try, by making sure the rich and powerful are the only ones holding the cards, to stop others from acquiring it out of fear that it might reduce a slice of the pie.

  • Clavos

    As to Clavos’s characterization, perhaps we should amend it therefore to read: “classic conservative ‘scare’ thinking.”

    Except that, as Mark pointed out, capitalism has shown us that scarcity thinking is bogus, it is possible to increase production and to, as Mark also pointed out, feed the world. It just hasn’t been done yet, but could be.

    Of course, if it were, it would really take the wind out of the liberals’ sails.

    Which might, at least in part, account for why it hasn’t happened…

  • Mark

    So long as the production of wealth is pursued only to the extent that exploitation is possible, I’d agree with #145.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I wouldn’t worry all that much about the liberals’ sails. I can’t speak for Mark, though.

  • M ark

    (146 refers to 143)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I took it that way.

  • Clavos

    As the liberal ship continues to founder on the rocks of ineptitude, someone should be worrying about the set of its sails.

    If its crew doesn’t, no one will.

    On second thought, that’s probably a good thing.

  • M ark

    …genuflects to the Invisible Hand

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Ineptitude is no longer a proprietary characteristic of either party. But that’s my opinion.

  • M ark

    …genuflects again

  • Clavos

    …genuflects to the Invisible Hand

    Careful It doesn’t swat you off the deck in retribution for your insouciance, Mark…:-)

  • Clavos

    Ineptitude is no longer a proprietary characteristic of either party. But that’s my opinion.

    Agreed. All of America seems to suffused with it these days.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Are we doing 2000 Hail Mary’s to atone for our sins?

  • Clavos

    …to be

  • M ark

    (note to techies: foo blech barf – do you think that you could make the system a little more glitchy today? How about another bank of adds or two. Thanks)

  • Clavos

    Are we doing 2000 Hail Mary’s to atone for our sins?

    You believers can, if you wish. I’ll pass.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    In fact, I’m doing a NewsFlash piece on A. Joseph Stack III. Surprisingly, Dave hasn’t done it yet.

  • Clavos

    If your browser is FF, get adblock, Mark. It’s free and very effective.

  • M ark

    This is America, and I’ll get as soused or not as I please.

  • Baronius

    So, what have we resolved? We really need Jeannie to answer what she was referring to in the second half of #135.

    As to the first half, I think most everyone in the BC crew has examined their beliefs, and holds them because they believe in them, not because they were raised in them. While socialization does take place, it doesn’t do any benefit to focus on it in political argumentation. It’s little more than an opportunity to declare your opponent less developed.

  • Clavos

    You’re right. Unfortunately, it is America…

  • Clavos

    165 addresses 163

  • M ark

    Baronius, if one presents a meaningful deconstruction of a given strand of socialization rather than declaring himself superior, isn’t that politically useful?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “While socialization does take place, it doesn’t do any benefit to focus on it in political argumentation.”

    Then in what terms should ‘political argumentation’ be conducted? End? Means?
    Cost-benefit analysis, as suggested by the utilitarians?

  • M ark

    (Clavos #162, I’ve been using FF with addblock which has been stumbling over some of the packets recently…? Today I find a basic stripped down Chrome works better.)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Google’s Chrome is the best browser thus far. Minimalism in browsers is best

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    156 is an apt response to 143 which attacked 94 for its smarmy assertions about 29 which, of course, was a percurser to 36 and which negated the outrageous claims made in 12 and echoed erroneously, but at least with good humor in 64. If 19 had just offered more in the way of detail and included proper references, 46, 63, 79 and 102 thru 121 would have never seen the light of day. If we all would just heed the warnings of 13 (how apt, BTW) and live by the tenets brought forth in 89, reiterated in 124 and to a lesser extent in 146, we’d all be more comfortable with 15 and even 71 – no, I know that’s a stretch, but still…

    Enough said.

    B

  • M ark

    perdy funy B

  • Baronius

    Mark, I don’t know what that means.

    Roger, actually, now that I think about it, I don’t know what your comment means either.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Mark,

    Perhaps you can explain #168 to Baronius, because he seems to exhibit a mental block now and then when I open my mouth.

  • Mark

    Rog, no response to Baronius will be useful until we can come up with some shared vocabulary.

    Baronius, if ‘deconstruction’ is meaningless to you, how about ‘description’? While it doesn’t convey as much, for the purpose of my question it works. Note that you’ve already acknowledged that socialization takes place, so I’m asking why you claim that a description of part of the process has no political usefulness.

    Or are you having trouble with some other parts of the question?

    (btw Chrome tells me that BC has some malware problem going on)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, Mark, but the question I posed was a simpler one.

    What’s there not to understand about there being different foci points to a political debate – such as means, ends, or utility?

    But I’ll let it ride.

  • Clavos

    I’m told (I don’t use it) that Chrome is particularly bad for attempting to post an article in BC using the BC Scrive editing interface, so those of you who use Chrome, and are also posting articles, keep that in mind.

  • tolstoyscat

    I tried Chrome once…I didn’t initially like it. But I am ready to ditch FF, becaue it no longer supports google notebook…which I need…and now I have a million bookmarks that are poorly organized.

    Did you use google notebook, Clav? Were you forced (like I was) by FF to upgrade whether you wanted to or not?

  • tolstoyscat

    171 B – lol

    173 – Bar,

    Baronius, if one presents a meaningful deconstruction of a given strand of socialization rather than declaring himself superior, isn’t that politically useful?

    It means, if it helps us understand why we are who we are/do what we do/think what we think, if it helps us take things apart so we can see that–rather than merely being used like a weapon to call someone else less advanced–then does it not have some use politically?

    (I hope that is close enough, Mark. I am still a novice in speaking ‘Mark’. :-)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Mark is right though.

    there comes up a safety warning notice today re BC

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    As though because political beliefs, though derived from personal beliefs, should not have be examined in terms of the latter.

    I suppose the reason being that personal beliefs are sacred and therefore taboo.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It’s called “Mark-speak,” Cindy.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baritone,

    Ha ha ha…I’ll have to get back with you after I figure this one out. How long did this take you? It’s going to take me a little longer!

    156 is an apt response to 143 which attacked 94 for its smarmy assertions about 29 which, of course, was a percurser to 36 and which negated the outrageous claims made in 12 and echoed erroneously, but at least with good humor in 64. If 19 had just offered more in the way of detail and included proper references, 46, 63, 79 and 102 thru 121 would have never seen the light of day. If we all would just heed the warnings of 13 (how apt, BTW) and live by the tenets brought forth in 89, reiterated in 124 and to a lesser extent in 146, we’d all be more comfortable with 15 and even 71 – no, I know that’s a stretch, but still…

    ;]Enough said.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    STM,

    I did not mean that to acquire wealth is wrong.
    I meant to acquire wealth at the expense of everyone else is wrong.

    :} I think you misunderstood my comment. Which one was it?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    Your not feeling to well today, so I wont bother you.

    :]relax, it’s Sunday.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Jeannie,

    You can bother me all you want because it doesn’t bother me.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Clavos,

    You promised me wolves, and I was starting to think that I would only get, bleating sheep. not an insult, just a little saying

    :]Thank-You for coming over here, I hate to be alone in cyberspace.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    clavos,

    What is chrome?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Cindy,

    Happy to see everything is OK now.

    :] We are friends, aren’t we?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    MaRk,

    You don’t appear to be speaking to me directly, so, I don’t know if I need to say anything to you.

    :] I don’t have all day, so I’ll have to cut this short. sorry

  • tolstoyscat

    Thanks Jeannie. Yes we are friends. I hope we don’t ever give up on each other. I can work with lack of perfection if you can. :-)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Now, from what I can see, you are all mad? Having fun? or Are you all really debating my article?

    :] All these choices are OK with me.They are really beyond my control. I’ll be around later with an answer to Baritone’s puzzle…I hope

  • Cindy

    Jeannie, I suspect B’s puzzle was not literal–but just a joke. He probably made up all those numbers to be funny.

  • Mark

    jeannie, lol. Feel free not to address me without worry.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Cindy,

    I was born with it, but lost it, now I’m looking for it again. Can you help me find it?

    Why aren’t all of you guys outside today? The sun is shinning and the air smells
    fresh. But, you probably have lap-tops? I hope to have one this summer. Then, I can still talk when I’m at work.:]

    I take it I’ve said something to rial everyone up? What was it?

    :o Do I owe you all an apology? If so, I apologize in advance. Bye for now…

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Cindy,

    Thanks! I was really going to try to figure all of that out.

    :]OMG! I would have blown a gasket! bye

    Ps MaRk, loltoo

  • Baronius

    Mark, what would you deconstruct: the tea party movement, a member of the movement, and/or the movement’s tax policy? If the movement, how would you know whether you’re right? And once you’ve understood them and the origins of their thinking, does that tell you anything about the effectiveness of their tax policy?

    That’s my last comment for a while (assuming it gets through). I keep getting malware warnings, and this site isn’t worth losing a hard drive over.

  • John Lake

    Conspiracy theory and Obama doesn’t ring real well with me. Obama continues to try to do the right thing — but he has to play the game or he’s out the door without a sweater.
    Seeking after wealth is not a bad thing, but rumors are flying that the Arabs have already spent more money to buy the diplomats attention than was early expected.
    It’s hard not to agree with George Will whom we know and trust, in spite of his recent unexplained swing to the right. He concedes that there are a few John Birchers in the new expanded Tea Party. Try to find a meaningful definition of John Bircher now; you’ll get hogwash. At one time that definition went directly to make money, put up a good front.
    I mentioned somewhere yesterday that a party that discourages anything approaching wisdom, though maybe great for Sarah and John, is not a 21st century concept. One would hope…
    I broke in earlier in this thread with some hastily prepared thoughts. I should have gone into detail about “executive privilege”. In the right hands, great. In the wrong hands, stand-by to stand-by.
    Don’t follow leaders, feed the parking meters.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    The rich can be as rich as they like, but in a fair and just society, the gap between rich and poor closes.-STM

    Thank you, that was what I was looking for.

    :]Couldn’t have said it better, myself.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Bye all, and, Hello John, sorry I didn’t have time to stay.:]

  • john lake

    I’ve a little cold. Lets see if this HTML is all that universal —
    Who’s Raising Money For Tea Party Movement?

  • Mark

    Mark, what would you deconstruct: the tea party movement, a member of the movement, and/or the movement’s tax policy? If the movement, how would you know whether you’re right? And once you’ve understood them and the origins of their thinking, does that tell you anything about the effectiveness of their tax policy?

    Without looking for some esoteric deep level conflicts, let’s look at the surface. The tea party is characterized by two apparently conflicting origin myths: on the one hand, it formed out of the grass roots; on the other, it is the creation of a political elite. Does this conflict have any meaning for the future of the ‘party’? Is a unity possible? Are we not seeing signs of a breakup, already?

    Are these not politically meaningful questions?

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Cindy is correct. I much prefer picking #s out of a hat. Just having a bit of fun. :)

    B

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #198 reads like automatic writing, John Lake.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “Origin myths.” You’ve done your homework, Mark. To translate for the uninitiated, two conflicting narratives.

    Although Baronius’s question was more elementary, I should think.

    The way I read it, why should the political socialization process be of any import when it comes to political debates?

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    BTW – Jeannie – Your article is a smashing success if only measured by the commentary.

    B :)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Thanks to the resident geniuses, ha ha.

  • Cindy

    to say nothing of the SubGenii ;-)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I included you in the first group.

  • Cindy

    Well, does it have a drumming circle like the second one? a Timothy Leary “Experience” where you walk-through a birth through adulthood and beyond? Does Robert Anton Wilson attend? (ooops, sorry he’s dead now, we won’t be wanting him to attend after all). What exactly does the genius group have going for it?

  • Cindy

    Oh wait! It is full of cool BC folks. That sounds good enough…

    (wish we could do the drumming circle thing though…an amazing experience)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Sorry, didn’t experiment with drugs in the sixties. Now I do.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    My premise here should be crystal-clear to you, but then, you just said for the millionth-time that, you don’t care for America anymore.

    What I said, Jeannie, is that the longer I stay away from the States, the harder it is for me to identify with its problems. That is very different from caring for Americans. If I didn’t care for Americans, I wouldn’t even bother commenting here at all, much less write articles here. Don’t put words in my mouth.

    Be safe, and, move back here.

    What is there for me to move to, Jeannie? Jews will not be safe in America – when the economy crashes there, they will be attacked as the cause. I’m supposed to settle for this? My sons will want to marry Christian girls if there is a shortage of Jewish ones. This is something I’m supposed to want? Instead of getting just a smudged copy of America’s sick culture, they will get the full frontal assault. This is something I’m supposed to want?

    And most important, we will all lose our health insurance. What kind of idiot do you take me for anyway?!!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    John,

    re.201

    Your NPR link showed a point that I’ve tried to get across here.

    Dick Army, is behind the Tea with Freedom Works, and other corporate lobbyists.

    They are being propped up, aren’t they?

    That is what I said, somewhere in all of these comments.

    Were you agreeing with me, or, making a different point?

    :0 huh?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Cindy,

    Who is BOB, and why should we trust him?

    :] lol ?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    Stop trying to equate the sixties with drugs, it was much more than that, it was a time when this country had the chance to get out of the grips of corporate America, the monster that’s swallowing us up whole right now.

    ;0 I thought you called yourself a genius?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Your remarks are always on target, Jeannie.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Ruvy,

    Your ethnocentrism is what’s ruining your life. Open up your mind and heart to new possibilities.

    A real welcome part of your family just might be a Christian. You don’t hate me.

    :0 I don’t take you for a fool, I take you for another human bean, just like me.
    Cindy, spells it that way. I liked it.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    I wasn’t trying to be mean, just honest. I don’t have all the stops, that make me hold my tongue.

    :{ It gets me into trouble, all the time,sorry.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Honest to GOD, look at all these comments!

    You people are either bored to death, or, Your all trying to pick at my brain, and see what comes out.

    :]Tell me, if you if you find anything really interesting, OK?

  • Cindy

    Jeannie,

    The Church of the SubGenius is an amusing organization full of fun people with a weird sense of humor. Or as is written: an organization for “mutants, blasphemers, disbelievers, rebels, outcasts, hackers, freethinkers,”and people who generally consider themselves outside the “mainstream” of society.

    The central figurehead and symbol of the Church is the smiling, pipe-smoking face of J. R. “Bob” Dobbs, an image based on 1950s styled clip art…

    Praise, Bob!

    (it’s all satire)

    quotes from wikipedia

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baritone,

    I did look at #13, BTW, it is a good one!

    :]retweet.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    That might be the only organized church that I would attend now!

    :)I would be in good company.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    What I said, Jeannie, is that the longer I stay away from the States, the harder it is for me to identify with its problems. That is very different from caring for Americans. If I didn’t care for Americans, I wouldn’t even bother commenting here at all, much less write articles here. Don’t put words in my mouth.

    When I move overseas, I suspect I’ll feel the same.

    What is there for me to move to, Jeannie? Jews will not be safe in America – when the economy crashes there, they will be attacked as the cause. I’m supposed to settle for this?

    1. When we move to the Philippines, I think it will be safer for us there than here.

    2. I really don’t think the economy will crash here – the economic indicators show no such likelihood.

    3. As much as I think that if the American economy crashed, you and yours would NOT be attacked, history shows that you have to consider that very possibility. Therefore I cannot fault your concern.

    My sons will want to marry Christian girls if there is a shortage of Jewish ones. This is something I’m supposed to want?

    Frankly, that’s half the reason we’re moving to the Philippines – so that my son will not marry outside the Church.

    Instead of getting just a smudged copy of America’s sick culture, they will get the full frontal assault. This is something I’m supposed to want?

    And that’s the other half of the reason why we’re moving – here in America my son will be raised in a culture that is built on overconsumption, waste, and envy. There are valuable lessons to be learned in a third-world country that cannot be learned here.

    And most important, we will all lose our health insurance. What kind of idiot do you take me for anyway?!!

    My wife and I will be giving up our socialized health insurance (that all retired military get) by moving to the Philippines…but we can always come back to America…and I’m sure we will, sooner or later.

    Ruvy, I hate to say it, but you and I aren’t so different, after all.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    When will America realise that a bit of social engineering – wasn’t that what the founding fathers did?? – isn’t socialism.-STM

    I keep going back to his #8, because it really helps me to make the point I’m trying to drive home.

    We do need social programs in this country, intelligent and compassionate ones.

    This leave us alone, will not work!

    The shelters are spilling over now into the streets, populated primarily by women and children. many of them have jobs, that don’t pay enough to survive.

    You know, when we could have been teaching women to grow up self sufficient, we were encouraging them to go find husbands instead.

    Now, my daughter comes from a new generation of women that will be self-reliant.

    But, in the mean-time what are the women of my generation supposed to do?

    :O I want a government! I want a lot of things.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Glenn,

    Sorry, to hear you calling your VA health care “socialized.” It has a stigma attached to it, that is wrong.

    You have single-payer-health-care, and it works!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Why wont my article show-up in this little digg widget?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Cindy,

    Here is my church.

    :]And, you are all invited to join it.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Nite, BC.

    :O yawn, I’m turning into a pumpkin now.

  • Cindy

    Haha! I have seen Rev Billy and the Stop Shopping Church, Jeannie. He is a hoot! That’s great. :-)

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Jeannie –

    Sorry, to hear you calling your VA health care “socialized.” It has a stigma attached to it, that is wrong.

    Don’t be sorry. By definition, VA health care is socialized…and the reason I’m using the word again and again and again is to destigmatize it. Remember, for decades ‘liberal’ was a dirty word, and to many Americans it still is. But I’m a proud liberal, doggone it, and I refuse to be afraid to point out how America would greatly benefit from socialism in moderation…just as all the rest of the first-world democracies already do.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Just a note about the VA: I’ve been a VA patient for about 15 years now. During that time I have received superior care, but times are a changin’.

    During a discussion with a therapist at the VA a few days ago she related that up until about a year ago, the Roudebush VA Hospital Center handled approximately a half million patients a year. During the past year that number has risen to over 750 thousand owing largely to Iraq and Afghanistan returnees who have left the service plus a large # of vets who have opted for the VA rather than private care.

    This influx of new patients is apparent whenever I go out there. It is now difficult to walk the hallways. Waiting times are much longer rising from an average of 20 minutes now to over an hour. Also, they have made it more difficult to see one’s primary doctor over and above the normal twice a year check ups. They have nurses run interference. You have to make a pretty good case for getting an appointment. If you are truly ill you are told either to go to their emergency facility or to just be a “walk-in” patient wherein you may or may not get to see the doctor, even if you wait the entire day.

    Parking facilities at the Center have long been inadequate, but now with the large influx of patients you have to figure on allowing for at least a half hour to find a space.

    I’d say the VA is being taxed beyond its current capacity.

    B

  • STM

    I wish my wife and youngest daughter would join Jeannie’s “church”.

    I had eight grand in savings at the end of October courtesy of the GFC and rapidly falling mortgage interest rates (we pay variable rates on our mortgages here), and on December 26 (just as the rates were starting to go up again), it was down to minus $58 bucks.

    When I asked her to explain how you could go through that amount in a couple of months, she said: “It was Christmas”.

    That’s an overseas holiday, which is what I was hoping we could use it for.

    Mind you, she (they) doesn’t need secular/religious holidays to rack up a sh.tload of spending.

    Any excuse will do.

    “It’s Saturday” is a regular one.

  • STM

    I hope America doesn’t tinker with its veterans’ health care system. They deserve better than that.

  • Clavos

    Actually, it needs tinkering, Stan. It’s never been optimum, and as B-tone notes, it’s deteriorating…

    I’ve been a VA priority patient for more than 20 years.

  • STM

    Unless, of course, the tinkering makes it better.

    I would have thought the vets deserved the best that can offered.

    If it’s any consolation (and I’m sure it’s not), it’s been downgraded somewhat here too with the passing of all but one of the WWI vets and the majority of the WWII vets.

  • STM

    Where’s ya bin Clav??

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    It’s on ‘is boat. :-)

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Your ethnocentrism is what’s ruining your life. Open up your mind and heart to new possibilities.

    Following my ethnocentrism has probably saved my life, Jeannie. If I live so long to see it, I will have done my duty to my ancestors and to me – and I will see Jewish grandchildren. My ancestors in Poland and Russia lived in the darkness and kept the faith, with the hope of light and freedom for the Jewish people. Who am I to walk out on their faith in me, now that there is light and now that there is the possibility of freedom?

    Is a fancy house and an SUV supposed to be an adequate substitute for all their faith and determinedness, Jeannie? Am I to be bought so cheaply? I think not. I’m a happy man, not a miserable one. The problems around me are hard to solve – but at least where I live, lots of folks see the same solutions I do. My personal economic situation stinks, but we’ll get by. G-d watches over us.

    And two economies have come out pretty much unscathed from mess that American corporate giants have plunged the world into – Australia and Israel. And this is no thanks to the United States OR the American taxpayer.

    G-d has spared us all the white-water ride you are going through. Perhaps you should think about why.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I would like to address VA Health Care in one comment, rather than each commenter individually.

    It is true, that the VA may not be the best, but it is the model we have to work with that is actually up and running. If we wait for something new, we’ll all be dead by then.

    True, there is a huge influx of patients, due to two preemptive wars, retiring and impoverished veterans returning home, and veterans entering the system because of these deteriorating economic times.

    I believe that the introduction of many new satellite-clinics shows very good timing on the VA’s part.

    I now have a choice. So, instead of the over-crowded hospital VA, that I have an hour and a half comute to, I now go to a brand-new-fully-equipped smaller clinic, for routine-check-ups, blood-work, and the occasional aches and pains that would prompt me to visit my doctors.

    The waiting time normally lasts a half-hour, but, I can sit in a beautiful little waiting room watching CNN on the flat-screen TV mounted on the wall. :]

    So, while VA isn’t perfect, for me it’s the best.

    I hold no-faith in my husband’s doctor, due to the for-profit-system that he is working with, he does not have preventative-care number one in his “bidnez.”

    For-profit-health-care is keeping us all sick.

    Also, single-payer is a much-less scary word for FOX News, compared to the word Socialisation! oooooo

    ;]good-morning.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Ruvy,

    I’ll be back after breakfast for you, buddy.

    :]I bet you can’t, wait!

  • cannonshop

    Jeannie, there’s a major difference between VA and any “Universal” system.

    Less than 1% of Americans join the service less than 10% of Americans have ever served.

    Pretty close to 90% of all adult Americans pay taxes-taxes fund the VA (Inadequately). Assuming the bigger number of 10% veterans (an exaggeration for simplification purposes-the actual number’s a lot lower), that’s nine payers for every potential beneficiary (and not all Vets use the VA.)

    Now, figure that only about a third of ALL Americans are actually working-which means paying into the system, but you’re insuring all of them, plus everyone who’s dependent on them (kids, grandkids, parents, and grandparents, depending on where your taxpayer is in their life), plus illegal immigrants (most of whom, being illegal, aren’t working jobs above-board and paying taxes because there aren’t enough fake ID’s out there to sign a W-4), that means now you’re reversing the proportion to an extent-instead of lots of payers with few recipients (who had to do something specific to earn the right to access the system), you’ve got lots of recipients, but very few payers in proportion.

    A system like that can’t stay solvent for long-which is already apparent when you look at the ‘untouchable’ spending and the looming problem with social-security (more people drawing, than contributing, and no money in the kitty.)

    it isn’t sustainable. U.S. healthcare’s expensive-no doubt about it, but thtere is a REASON that Health Insurance costs so damned much-the quality’s higher, even if the quantity is restricted. The soviets solved this by restricting access within their own “universal” system-European countries are doing it by Triage (a nice way to say “too expensive to treat, let ‘m die” or “Let’m suffer”).

    it’s the cold calculus of “We can obtain and apply X resources, to Y recipients, when Y>X, the proportion of X resources available to apply must be applied on a basis of priority, and that priority has to preserve as much of X resources as possible.”

    It’s not nice, and the people you burden with making that call probably won’t sleep particularly well if they have a functioning moral compass, *(and most do.) but that’s what you have.

    If the U.S. were producing enough to “Pay off” it’s governmental debts and still have the profit (in this case a reference to something AFTEr you pay the bills you already have) enough to support additions to existing outlays (Social Security, medicare/medicaid, Coast Guard, Defense, Education, Housing and Urban Development, WIC, VA benefits, National Parks, etc etc ad nauseum…) then it makes sense. WE are a DEBTOR nation whose credit is in the toilet, but whose expenditures keep increasing even though productivity is trending downward to the point that non-productive activity is being shoehorned to make the GDP look bigger than it is in hopes of propping up SOME credit.

    This is the condition we’re IN. there are whole DEPARTMENTS of the U.S. government that could vanish tomorrow, and not leave a ripple (except to end some Luxury spending). they’re not going away any time soon-that is not the nature of our Government. There are thousands of pages of tax-code designed to allow the Kennedys and Rockefellers and such to avoid paying more than a pittance of taxes, and that, too is not going away any time soon.

    Without a major overhaul, we just don’t have the money, and won’t have it. EVER.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Jeannie,

    Just a little something for you to look at – it has nothing to do with this article at all, but will give you a very clear view of my politics – they haven’t changed that much since the end of 2005.

    Read the commentary all the way through….

    A few changes in names to help you out. I used to live in Jerusalem; Alienboy is now known as Chris Rose; troll is now known as Mark – or Ma r k or however he tries to split up his name.

    Obama’s links to the Arabs are just as strong as Gorge Bush’s were – but they are of a different nature, and are to a different generation. Put simply, Obama is as much a head-waiter for the Saudi thugs as Bush was – but with the added fillip that he does not pretend to be a friend of Israel – which is why I like him.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Ruvy,

    One more comment first, I promise to watch and answer you fully.

    Right now, cannonshop, is attempting to cloud the number one issue with a lot of excuses.

    The time to enact, health care reform will begin, in-earnest, at 10 AM est today.

    YAH, to our president, President Obama!

    :)by-partisan, or not… We the People, are not stalling and obstructing this any longer. I’ll be back with a comment.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I haven’t forgotten about the, “church of the non-shopper” either, I just can’t type that fast!

    :)Cut-up-all-of-your-credit-cards!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    cannonshop,

    We might not live in utopia, but this country belongs to all of us.

    I try to understand each human-bean that I meet, whether on-line or in the street.

    I really respect you, we just happen to disagree about what utopia would really look like, if we could actually-achieve it in our life-time.

    Right now, I’m listening to Washington Journal on-line, and, I’ve turned it off for this comment.

    The private insurers, are a go-between for the doctors and their clients, but somewhere down the line, that go-between became the interferer and controller.

    Motivated by profit, the insurer became not only our vehicle to better health care coverage, but, our enemy to quality or in some cases any health care.

    Their refusal to cover costs of tests ordered by the doctors, and, excluding people due to preexisting conditions, is what has really brought us, here in the first place.

    Fox news and others want to talk about “death-panels?” I ask you, “What do they think the insurance-giants are doing to them right now?”

    We can bitch about cost all day long, but the facts of the matter are, that the VA and Medicare models for health-care would not only work for all of us, it would also, cost less out-of-pocket money, than we are all paying right now.

    Please look at this You see, we actually have a real live case of impressive cost control in health care.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Have one of you here, even, watched my Thomas Frank video?

    I bet, not one of you have , and, I find that despicable!

    :) I’m giggling right now, and wondering who Redtard is, but, I promise not to pry. Ruvy, I am trying to see your point of view. I’ll see you, after I finish the thread.

  • Clavos

    Medicare fraud has reached $60 billion a year nationally, according to government investigative agencies.

    And Medicare rations care — big time.

    Some “model.”

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Clavos,

    You didn’t even even read it, did you?

    It’s not that out-of-date :)2005, Paul Krugman.

    :o Why isn’t my artical showing up in the digg side-bar?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    “Majority rules! It’s in the Constitution,
    and, like it or not, We The People, are the majority right now, not, the propped-up Tea party.”

    :O I will prove this point to you. I’ll be right back.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Tea Party participants are not made up of Democrats and Independents; there may be some in there, but their numbers are few, compared to the GOP.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Many, members are motivated by racism.

    The Tea Party is incapable, of representing all of us.

    :O I’m not mad, I’m just fired-up! There is a big-difference between the two.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    :) I’m giggling right now, and wondering who Redtard is….

    He is some fellow who had conservative leaning views (I imagine from the way he wrote) who, if he is still around, is writing under a different moniker. I haven’t seen comment from him in a long time.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Ruvy,

    Thanks for posting the link to the 2005 article and thread. Very informative.

    One observation. For all the usual disagreements, I’m struck by how much more measured were all the responses from all sides compared to what they are today.

    In the past five years, it sure seems as though most of the BCers have become short-tempered, even more intolerant, and downright nasty.

    But I suppose this is not true just for the BC community but the world at large.

    Not a good sign, I should say.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I’m watching the President right now, shhh!

    :) turn on C-Span and join me.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Roger,

    I hadn’t written any articles here yet. I was still feeling my way around the site – which was very different from what it is today. If you want to get an idea what Blogcritics looked like in 2005, visit Desicritics, the sister Desi site run by Aaman Lamba and his wife, who used to live in Ohio and knew Eric Olsen. Phil Wynn, the technical guy here, is also the technical guy for Desicritics.

    Things were better 4½ years ago, and not as stressed as they are now. I know I’ve gone through some serious shit in the past 4½ years, and yes, I admit, I’m shorter tempered than I used to was. I tend to get very short-tempered when my wallet is running on empty, and if you ran a comparison to the nastiness in my comments to the emptiness of my wallet, you’d see there is a direct correlation…. The data points tend to match rather closely.

  • Mark

    (I remember that discussion well…in which troll learned the futility of requesting evidence from a liberal representative of the Queen’s empire.)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    What?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    :O “What evidence do you need, M a Rk?”

    C-Span was pretty good this morning, until C-PAC, came back on. So, now I’m done.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    As it turned out, Mark, Chris was wrong and I was right. I’d say that 1½ wars counts as proof, wouldn’t you?

    Now get your pacifist troll off my Zionist imperialist bridge, you!!

    Jes’ pullin’ yer leg, farrier. ;o))

    BTW, how is the iron-mongering going these days? Need any students?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I liked the “alienboy” handle, though. Somehow, there was a human touch to it. But the acerbic style is unmistakable.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    These are probably the most volatile political times for the whole world right now. Of course, tempers are going to be shorter, but, don’t confuse temper with excitement.

    :O It’s that little word game, that gets us in trouble.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    So was “troll,” in a way. Self-deprecatory, and therefore arming the bearer against vicious personal attacks.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Oh, and I should have added, Mark, you were right to question Chris on his assertions….

    :O “What evidence do you need, Mark?”

    Jeannie, you need to go back and read the thread carefully to see what Mark is talking about.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Please, don’t try to send me away again, Ruvy.

    “Why don’t you tell me, what he meant?”

    :} It appears that neither MaRk, nor Roger are addressing me directly.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    “I liked the “alienboy” handle, though. Somehow, there was a human touch to it.

    Now, what does that statement mean?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Here’s the part I liked best:

    “51 – troll
    Nov 02, 2005 at 1:34 pm
    sorry Alien – I didn’t catch the abstract subtlety of your point…I thought that you were saying something about real Palestinians

    troll

    56 – alienboy
    Nov 02, 2005 at 4:38 pm
    Troll, you just didn’t catch my point, period. I’ll leave the fantasy life to you

    Typical Chris.

    Also Nalle’s rather rare moment of lucidity, as for example when he was defending Ruvy’s term of address “kid” to a fully-credentialed state-department functionary and the article’s author.

    Jeannie,

    No one’s ignoring you. We’re just talking about a five-year old discussion that Ruvy referenced above.

  • Mark

    These days I would simply ask Chris the extent to which he thinks the Palestinians are radicalized as a group and leave it at that.

    Ruvy, the horse business is slow up here in the mountains at this time of year — 8″ of fresh snow last night and still snowing. Because of the economic breakdown, I’ve started to move my business more toward utilitarian blacksmithing. Fact is, we’re going to have to produce ourselves out of this mess.

    Best wishes to you and your family. Stay safe and try not to hurt anyone.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Jeannie,

    The “alienboy” of five years ago is Christopher Rose, our Comments Editor. I believe Ruvy made that identification a few comments above.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Please, don’t try to send me away again, Ruvy.

    I’m not “sending” you away at all, Jeannie. Chris made an assertion (countering one of mine) and Mark called him on it, asking for evidence. And the two of them went on a merry chase with Chris (Alienboy) avoiding answering Mark (troll). But to comprehend all this you really do need to read the comments on the thread. Attempting to explain it all here is somewhat futile and out of context.

    I will say this much to alleviate your questions, Jeannie. During the Lebanon War of 2006, which broke out nine months after this original article on AHmadinejad was posted, Chris wanted to know why the Israeli army wasn’t pummeling HIzbAllah. He was honestly baffled by this non-occurrence. If you go back to that link and follow the comments between me, Alienboy and troll, you will see where Chris was wrong, and where I was right – and you will see Chris avoiding giving Mark any kind of answer.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    BTW, I’m flabbergasted by the Realist’s article. What gets me, how could he be sitting on this heap of trouble for so long, until the last possible moment?

  • Mark

    Hi jeannie, I don’t mean to be ignoring you — in that old thread I asked Chris for the evidence that led him to conclude that Palestinians for the most part aren’t radically opposed to Israel.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    How about you fast-forward to now, and, help me get my article to show in the digg side-bar.

    :)Please!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I don’t know how to do that, Jeannie. Cindy will help you if you ask her.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I can’t really be expressing my thoughts on the Realist’s thread, for understandable reasons.

    But I definitely see something very incongruous about the picture. Don’t you, Ruvy?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Chris avoiding giving Mark any kind of answer.

    Ha ha ha, that sounds like everyone at BC. Especially, right-after I make a good point, or, write an article with a liberal-view.

    :) Don’t get mad at me, I’m just telling like it is!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Chris avoiding giving Mark any kind of answer.

    Ha ha ha, that sounds like everyone at BC. Especially, right-after I make a good point, or, write an article with a liberal-view.

    :) Don’t get mad at me, I’m just telling like it is!

  • Cindy

    267 – (…imagines shoveling one’s way to the privy in a foot of snow…)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    Why can’t you express your views on his thread? That is one of the sadist articles I’ve read, in the political section.
    It really shows how we all need to get-together, on this health-care-crisis. Now!

  • Mark

    277 -It’s…refreshing.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Jeannie,

    Each person has a different point of focus and interest. If you want direct answers, ask challenging questions. Yes, Jeannie, either ask challenging questions or make outrageous statements. That will guarantee you a direct response. But people usually don’t respond all that much to something they basically agree on – except saying, OK, I’m with you.

    I’ve already expressed my reservations about your optimism (my early comment on the thread). But if you keep on harping about not being addressed directly in every single comment on this tread, people will get the wrong impression that all you’re doing is simply vying for attention. And we don’t want them to think that, do we?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Mountains! I love mountains, and, horses. Are they mean? I’m afraid of dogs biting me, so, a horse might kick me.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I’ve already indicated why if you just bother to read the comments carefully. I expressed my reservations to Ruvy.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Are you scolding?

    I ask all types of questions here, as do you, Roger.

    :O ?

  • Cindy

    279 (*tries to imagine having to wear absorbent undergarments as an experience that relates to the word ‘refreshing’*)

    Jeannie, I will take a look at your Digg problem. (morning, Jeannie :-)

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Fact is, we’re going to have to produce ourselves out of this mess.

    Hah! Explain that to Glenn Contrarion!! Let’s repeat that for him: Fact is, we’re going to have to produce ourselves out of this mess. Sounds like something I’ve been saying about recessions for a long time….

    Also there is this article from the Grey Lady on unemployment and how economists in the States expect the job losses from this recession to be permanent, and that most of the jobs will not be replaced, even if or when there is “expansion” after it ends. But if you are in a good mood, don’t read it. You’ll be depressed afterwards.

    Mark, good luck with the transition to straight smithing. hatzlaHá! as we say in Hebrew.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    I wish that you could be in a better mood right now. What’s the matter, are you not feeling well?

    :O Is there anything that I could say right now, that would help?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I’m in great mood, Jeannie. Perhaps the problem is you just don’t like what you hear.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Morning, Cindy,

    I wear my daughters, old purple, snow-suit; she grew out of it, when she was twelve. I, being a proud-member of, the Church of the Non-Shopper, still wear it.

    :)lol, Thanks for looking at digg.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I know what I see.

  • Cindy

    Jeannie,

    The Digg widget appears to be based on date. I noticed the articles that are on top are all dated today, the next ones are dated yesterday. I stopped there, but I bet it keeps going like that. If I am correct your article is just too old to be there.

  • Mark

    Ruvy, additionally, I intend to put in the hours necessary to heavily over produce in the garden this summer . While I might not love my neighbor exactly, I certainly can feed him.

    Thanks for the luck — I can use it.

  • Cindy

    280 (perhaps ‘harping’ is the wrong word for what is taking place…perhaps ‘assessment and adaptation’ is more like what is happening…)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    No fights here, with me. I’m in a fantastic mood.
    If you don’t like all of my Obama cheering, than look away, look away.

    :o I think that’s what it is.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    No, Jet’s article is from a few years ago. So, there must be something else. Oh, well, mox nix.

    :) thanks though.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Cindy,

    Harping? About what?

    Help me out here, I seem to be on his more sensitive side this morning. And I don’t know why?

  • http://willkillforfood.com Lisa McKay

    The Digg widget displays upcoming stories from BC sorted by Diggs.

    Theoretically, most of the Diggs will be coming from the most recently published stories, but as Jet’s article demonstrated, an old article which is currently garnering Diggs will also show up.

    The other limiting factor is the size of the widget, which shows 10 articles. Hope that explains it, Jeannie!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, “harping” is rather harsh, but Jeannie definitely was complaining that she was being ignored insofar that every single comment on this thread did not address her, or the issues she raised in her article, directly.

    I simply think should ought to look at that, and I merely pointed it out.

    I think it’s a fairer course of action for me to communicate this to here rather than simply feign my ignorance and pretend she is a child. She isn’t, and I’m not going to treat her as though she were.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Lisa,

    Sorry, to ask everyone! I didn’t want to bug you about it.

    :)I understand, now.

  • Cindy

    295 – I am in a good mood too.

    …who knows Jeannie…you know how sensitive men can be sometimes… ;-)

    I’m sure it’s all okay now.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    Speak directly to me, please. When I am right here. You are, talking about me right now.

    I didn’t ask for your undivided attention, but, I can tell that you are short-tempered, right now. I am just trying to get to the facts.:)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Cindy,

    You are right, we are both in a good mood!
    I want this day, to go as well as yesterday!

    :} I’m chill in.

  • Cindy

    kewl…me too :-)

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I can’t really be expressing my thoughts on the Realist’s thread, for understandable reasons. But I definitely see something very incongruous about the picture. Don’t you, Ruvy?

    Realist is in trouble, Roger. He’s writing a plea for help. I did too, three years ago.

    But, Roger, look at the bigger picture. The hell that has settled on so many others has now struck him – and he is warning others how they can avoid some of the worst evils when the evil day strikes them. He is a bigger man than I was, and I respect him for it.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Cindy,

    Wasn’t that church, funny? I wish that they’d open a chapter here! Not at BC, but in my town.

    :} I’d become a deacon or something. Well, maybe I better push away, for a while..I hate too, this was fun! See ya in a while.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    C-shop –

    You don’t think universal health care is sustainable? Then why is every other first-world democracy on the planet doing it?

    Listening to people saying “We can’t do it!” when ALL the other first-world democracies are doing it already…is like listening to a perfectly capable child saying “I can’t ride a bike!” when all his or her friends are doing so already.

    Yes, we CAN!

    BTW, I once read that Germany’s had universal health care since the 1890’s, and has kept it even though all the changes in government. Where do you think Teddy Roosevelt got the idea when he first proposed it for America?

  • Cindy

    I had better get back to work myself, Jeannie.

    (go girl power…we just wanna have fun…)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Of course I understand all that, Ruvy, but predicaments don’t all happen all of a sudden, which is to say, it doesn’t all go in the hellbasket all at once; there are omens and signs, and then there is a time to work on it if you want to avert the larger disaster and stop the momentum rather than wait until the last possible moment.

    My impression still is that his uncertain state of health – undiagnosed thus far – is the primary factor influencing his present, all-dark outlook. From what I have gathered, it’s more of the perception problem than anything else.

    In fact, I posted a comment to this effect on the pertinent thread.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    “Fact is, we’re going to have to produce ourselves out of this mess.”

    Hah! Explain that to Glenn Contrarion!! Let’s repeat that for him: Fact is, we’re going to have to produce ourselves out of this mess. Sounds like something I’ve been saying about recessions for a long time…

    Ever read about Humpty-Dumpty? All the King’s horses and men couldn’t put him back together again.

    Thanks to the conservatives, we’ve LOST our manufacturing base. We’ll probably regain some of it back, especially if we begin concentrating on green jobs, but we have LOST our real manufacturing base. It’s gone, kaput, pfft! Sure, we have Boeing and Lockheed Martin and Ford and GM and Microsoft, and Big Oil and Big Pharma…but most of the thousands of other manufacturers are gone and they ain’t coming back.

    Ever.

    So what do we do? Learn how somebody else coped with the SAME problem. I know that learning from somebody else isn’t what conservatives like to do – they’re intelligent, because they (sometimes) learn from their own mistakes. Those who are WISE, however, learn from the mistakes – and the recoveries from those mistakes – of others.

    So who lost their world-leading manufacturing base, and recovered to remain one of the most important nations in the world?

    England.

    They once had the largest empire in human history. Their manufacturing base was beyond compare. But that changed in time, didn’t it? So what sustains England now? Tourism helps, but the real strength of the English economy – if I understand it rightly – are their finance and insurance sectors. Ever hear of LIBOR – the London Interbank Offering Rate? Read up on it sometime. And then there’s Lloyd’s….

    We’ve LOST our manufacturing base. We cannot – CANNOT – compete with China’s manufacturing base…and India’s not so far behind them. We would be foolish to try to compete with them. I’m not saying give up what remains of the top-notch manufacturing base we still have – of course not! But it would be unwise to try to compete by building factories to manufacture what Asia already produces cheaply and in abundance.

    So what do we do? ADAPT…as England did.

    That’s what I told my sons – that while it’s good to be able to stand tall and strong against the travails of the world, it’s more important to be able to ADAPT. Trees are much stronger than the grass that sways with the gentlest of breezes…but when the hurricane comes, the tree may break and fall, while the grass is unconcerned. Nature puts it more simply – evolve or die.

    We must do the same.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Jeannie,

    My #280 and #282 were as direct a response to you as could be desired. The fact you didn’t like what I said is another story.

    As to #297, it was a response to Cindy’s #292.

    So again, I suggest that if you take your time and read all the comments carefully rather than jump up in arms and raise all kind of stink, you will see there is no basis for claiming you are being ignored.

    So yes, do enjoy the rest of the day just as I plan to enjoy mine.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    My impression still is that his uncertain state of health – undiagnosed thus far – is the primary factor influencing his present, all-dark outlook. From what I have gathered, it’s more of the perception problem than anything else.

    Roger, sometimes doctors honestly do not know. My mother-in-law (z”l) suffered from a brain disorder that caused awful seizures; but the doctors said it was NOT epilepsy, and could diagnose it no further.

    In 1990, my mother-in-law suffered a “non-epileptic” grand mal seizure that lasted for several days; the doctors drugged her so she would be unconscious, so her muscles would not exhaust themselves and kill her, but by the time the damage was all over, half of her memory was gone, and she needed to go into nursing home. She barely recognized her daughter, let alone me, and she did not really know her grandchildren except in the most surfacy of ways.

    nu? ma la’asót What is to be done? It may be that the doctors just do not know what is ailing Realist. Throwing money at them will not produce a real answer.

    Sometimes, Roger, you live with a sword over your head for your entire life, and there isn’t a damned thing you can do about it – except adjust your attitude.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    I strongly disagree with your comment #285, but I strongly AGREE with your comment #310.

    BUT he must not give up hope. The key is your last sentence…and sometimes that’s the way it is. As you said, if worse comes to worst, one must adjust his attitude, redirect his efforts, do what he can while he can.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Glenn,

    That is so true, we have lost our manufacturing base.

    It probably will never be the same as it was, but, that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try to adapt and change with the times.

    Move forward, not backwards, as some would have us do.

    Are you really moving to the Philippines? My cousin, Matt, has spent a lot of time there, that’s where his wife’s from. They have a beautiful family, and, that country has a lot going for it,high speed rail is one of those things, though, I’m not sure about health-care, or, a living wage; it can’t be as bad as here! :[

    You will still be able to write articles here, and that, is a good thing.

    :]Just wanted to add to your comment, that’s all.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy


    Thanks to the conservatives, we’ve LOST our manufacturing base. We’ll probably regain some of it back, especially if we begin concentrating on green jobs, but we have LOST our real manufacturing base. It’s gone, kaput, pfft! Sure, we have Boeing and Lockheed Martin and Ford and GM and Microsoft, and Big Oil and Big Pharma…but most of the thousands of other manufacturers are gone and they ain’t coming back. Ever.

    So, finally you are admitting the truth?

    Good! So now, you can stop talking about lagging unemployment, and start talking about re-rigging the whole economy so that people who lose their jobs permanently can find other jobs – and maybe even stop looking at working as drudgery done for some unappreciative corporation, and as an art done for one’s own sake, as well as for putting food on the table.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Ruvy and Glenn,

    That’s what I find incongruous about the picture. The Realist is talking from the vantage point of losing all the middle-class amenities and comforts of life as though it mattered all that fucking much.

    I have been living in a state of relative poverty for close to five years now, and I’m far from complaining. Compared to the Realist’s expectations as to the standard of life, I am a pauper. Of course, he’s got a family to fend for (I don’t), and that makes a difference. On the other hand, family is good because all can and should help one another. Except for my sister, I don’t have that luxury. Yet, I am not unhappy. Except for lack of social contact right now, my life is as good as any man’s. And I’m not complaining.

    Ruvy, I lived in the Bay Area, and I’m all familiar with homelessness, only partly personally, true, but it’s all around. And you, too, have been in this situation for a stretch, and in Minnesota of all places. Yet, I don’t hear you bitching about it like the world was about to end. You took it like a man, adjusted to the situation, and eventually pulled yourself through.

    That’s what I find wrong with the Realist’s picture.

    I’m ready to stand corrected of course, as always, on this or any other matter. But I still think we’re dealing here with a middle class angst. Fuck that. The values of the middle class never appealed to me, so not being able to totally avail myself of middle-class standard never meant much, I suppose.

    Perhaps therein lies the difference and my sense of puzzlement (not lack of empathy).

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Ruvy, Glenn, and, Roger,

    The middle-class is where a lot of America lies, right now, and, they are holding on by their teeth!>

    So, anyone, that thinks it’s passe, should try seeing that, like it or not, it has just as much a right to be protected, as legacy.

    :] lot’s of commas there!

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Jeannie –

    Yes, we are moving there. Perhaps in June, perhaps in September, but we’re moving…and frankly, we doing it for our son for the very same reasons Ruvy won’t bring his sons back to America.

    But it’s not just that. Roger touched on a great truth in #314, that wealth has little to do with happiness. I strongly believe that our son will benefit greatly from seeing a people that are by and large happier than most Americans despite their economic poverty.

    Also, I want him to know what it’s like to have LOTS of family within half an hour’s drive, what it’s like in a school where there’s actual honest-to-goodness discipline, and a whole host of other things.

    Make no mistake – we’ll have to be careful. There’s malaria and dengue, drugs and alcohol, people who want what little money we have. But – as long as one has family and a little money – life is MUCH easier there.

    But the only high-speed about their trains there is how fast the squatters get out of the way when the diesel train comes barreling through….

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I really wonder where you come from sometimes. One minute, you are way up in the stratosphere, and, the next you are talking about your CDLC license. Which class, do you prefer?

    :] Just wondering here.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Jeannie,

    The middle class is rapidly shrinking. It’s mostly the working-poor and the unemployed – the underclass, I would call it.

    If you’re looking for “middle class,” I’d say the teapartiers fit the bill almost to a tea. And what do you see? Nothing but a reactionary attitude.

    So no, I don’t want to protect the middle class any longer. The sooner it’s extinct, the better. I’m looking instead for things to reach their peak – general social unrest and the spirit of discontent. Perhaps only out of confrontation, direct confrontation, shall we see a new future unfold.

    Let the games begin.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    You’re not the only one wondering about me, Jeannie. Ask Cindy, and she’ll confirm your impressions.

    Welcome to the club, anyway.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Glenn,

    I understood it to be a good transportation system. Perhaps, I misunderstood my cousin?

    He was in the Navy, that’s when they met. When he asked her for a date, all of her aunts and cousins came with her! How sweet, in a way, bothersome in others.

    :]I would not have been asked out, probably, with my big mouth! LOL

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    You are, sadly mistaken.

    The middle is not the Tea, and, the real-middle, will not only survive, but, it will grow, in the future.

    :]That’s all for now, at least, that’s all I will say. I am, in a damn-good mood!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I always wonder, when I send my articles out to various organizations, if anyone actually reads them? I want to believe, that they do.

  • Cindy

    I was in a position where I lost my ‘place’. It was devastating. It was not simply devastating because I was losing my class standing. But still we define ourselves by the world we know, what we have come to expect. So, it feels like losing ourselves. It takes time to redefine. It was also devastating because with it came a huge realization that our society is fucked. That no one would care if I was suffering, except my family. Fortunately, I had family to help me. Realist not only does not, but he is ill. He’s not young. And his comment about the years in the ‘dream factory’ are moving.

    It is a reevaluation of life, the world, people, meaning.

  • Cindy

    And let’s not forget that he is also telling a story of what is happening that needs to be heard. That in itself is important.

    I am tired of a society that tells people ‘be a man’ get over it. If people crash they need to be invulnerable.

  • Cindy

    We shouldn’t have to ‘be a man’ we should just start treating people like human beings.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Cindy,

    My last comment must have crashed into yours!

    Don’t be upset with me.

    This, is where my beliefs are right now. I have to stand by the present admin, we don’t have another that I would even be able to tolerate. Not, after the last thirty years, Clinton included.

    It is the time to SAY YES! Yes, to health-care-reform! It’s a start…

  • Cindy

    Jeannie,

    I won’t be upset with you for having your own ideas and beliefs. We all have our own minds.

    (And mine is ready to go to the library…cya later :-)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Cindy,

    Good to both.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Why don’t you read the article more closely, Cindy. He’s still hung up on middle class standards.

    It’s not that I wasn’t empathetic. I just compared his situation to Ruvy’s situation of old, and lots of other people who don’t even have a roof under their head.

    Yes, I have no sympathy for middle-class standards. And all those who have held on to those standards throughout the years, while the world kept on crumbling under their feet – I don’t give a fuck now whether they were writing progressive articles or not – were certainly operating under some grand illusion.

    Again, don’t be fucking judging me by what I say (like you’re lately keen on doing). I empathize with the Realists as a person, but not with the mindset.

  • Cindy

    Okay, okay…bad judgment on my part. I will back off. Sorry, Roger.

    (now I am really off to the library)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, you’re making side comments rather than deal with me directly.

    If something I say puzzles you, confront me, but try not to insinuate.

    I guess I’m falling into the “Jeannie trap.”

    I, too, need undivided attention, and yes, love too. And when I don’t get it, I’m pissed.

    So forgive me if you can. I’ll behave from now on.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    …you, too, have been in this situation for a stretch, and in Minnesota of all places. Yet, I don’t hear you bitching about it like the world was about to end. You took it like a man, adjusted to the situation, and eventually pulled yourself through. That’s what I find wrong with the Realist’s picture. I’m ready to stand corrected of course, as always, on this or any other matter. But I still think we’re dealing here with a middle class angst.

    Then stand up, Roger. You are about to be corrected.

    I was 31-32 when I was living on the streets of the Twin Cities. I was healthy. I could walk five miles or more without feeling any kind of strain. I was mad at myself because I couldn’t put money on the table, and my ex could.

    Realist is none of these things. He is, I’m guessing, in his fifties. He is not healthy. He is in pain. He can’t work because of a debilitating condition. Middle class life and its pleasures are already a memory for him in large part. He realizes that crawling to where he was will be very difficult – perhaps beyond him. He has been the breadwinner, not some jealous fool who couldn’t bring money to the table to share in the expenses.

    And he doesn’t whine. He take his lumps like a man and gets on with things. But, he is running out of rabbits to pull out of the hat. He is in trouble – big trouble. His whole life is coming collapsing around him.

    If I could write the guy a check for $5,000 I would. But I can’t, Roger. Maybe someone else on the site can. He needs help – desperately.

    That is not middle class angst.

    The fact that lots of folks are already in or about to be in the same boat as he is is not good news either.

    I guess it bothers me that you can’t see this.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I see this, Ruvy. I have a heart condition too, have had it for ten years now and it’s awfully debilitating.

    As a matter of fact, yes. I was thinking of contacting you and some others about helping him out by sending a check. Don’t judge me too hastily.

    But he still talks of cable TV, and spending money for his kids’ college education, and all that shit, and all the good life he had had. Well, I’ve had none of that for the past five years, so sorry, I can’t empathize when it comes to bullshit. I empathize with the person, not his hangups. And he’s still hung up as far as I am concerned.

    I too had property, commercial and residential – over a million dollars worth. It’s all gone now and I am not crying. Shit happens and you have to move on. The Realist is not alone – millions of people like him. He talks of having to dip to his cash reserves to pay his medical bills. Well, I had no cash reserves to speak of for over five years. So excuse me if my heart doesn’t bleed over this little factoid.

    So yes – in spite of your long comment, you’re wrong. I do see and understand what he’s going through. And yet, at the same time, I still see it as part of the middle class angst.

    Well, there is no longer middle class to speak of – why don’t you all fuckers realize that and face the reality squarely in the face. For until you do, I can’t feel sorry for any of you.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    I haven’t had the time to read all of the intervening comments since my comment regarding the VA. However, I just wanted no say that I am not really complaining about the VA – as I noted, it has served me well and continues to do so. It offers pretty much everything under one roof.

    But, the great influx of new patients in pretty much all VA facilities is putting a strain on its capacity.

    One should remember that just a few years ago, the VA was mandated to CLOSE most of its satellite facilities. People from all over the state of Indiana were forced to drive whatever distance to get to the nearest VA hospital – sometimes well over a hundred miles.

    I hadn’t heard that they were opening new facilities, but, currently, the patient load here at the Indy VA remains very high.

    The other problem is that virtually all of the waiting room TVs here are tuned to FOX. What a crock. Oh well, I usually get caught up on my reading there.

    B

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Baritone,

    Oh no, I didn’t think you were complaining at all.

    I just thought, that all of these comments about the VA deserved an answer from me, before getting my man out the door with all that he needed for the day.

    You know, I really am a housewife, something that ought to be honored in this society. We have all made our choices in life, and, I love mine, my husband is a wonderful man. After all, he puts up with me! :]

    Now, to get back to health-care, are you writing an article? I hope so, because I would love to read it. and then, I could get out of this thread…

    The reason I mentioned the new satellite clinics in my area was that I wasn’t sure if you had them or not in your state. If not, start drumming them up!

    :) Don’t get me wrong, B, this has been a wonderful article and thread!, but I’m ready to write something fresh, and it’s going to begin tonight.

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    I don’t see how anybody ever made the case that the Palestinians are a coherent grouping that all call for the eradication of Israel, a point those opposing my point of view seem to have no trouble at all in conveniently ignoring.

    It follows therefore that I also don’t accept that I was outargued or proven wrong.

    Furthermore, some of you seem to also forget the difference between rhetoric, such as Ruvy’s frequent cries for the USA to abandon Israel, which most people believe would leave to its ruin and not, as Ruvy does, to its salvation, and reality.

    There is a whole world of difference between pointlessly abstract philosophy and its evil twin religious dogma and the real world, between what people say they want and what they really want or, often more importantly what they will actually accept.

    It is also true that Israel could end the conflicts in the Middle East any time it chose to by accepting the outline peace agreements that have been knocking around for decades now but it refuses to do so for reasons of religious dogma and hard politics.

    The latter point is important because Israel is losing the battle for feet on the ground due to its lower birth rate than almost all of its neighbours, which is why it and people like Ruvy are always going on about getting other Jews to move there.

    As it doesn’t appear to want to make peace with its neighbours, Israel has little practical alternative but to be belligerent in an attempt to gain as much advantage as possible before the relative population numbers overwhelm it.

    I support international efforts to support Israel, despite the disdain those such as Ruvy have for that support, and for many years would have been prepared to fight to protect it, but it has been clear for a long time now that Israel will not take a more pragmatic path and nowadays is probably trapped, both internally and externally, in a situation it can no longer resolve, never mind control.

  • John Lake

    Jeannie: re:213
    I have created an article for AC which will be published in a few days — an early analysis of the New Tea Party, the parties financial and philosophical contributers, and a few other vital issues.
    Link when available.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    John,

    That’s great! I am looking forward to reading it. I hope that you understand me, I have a strange way of writing, I guess.

    :]me

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos-/ Christine

    Jeannie: Like your article. However, I don’t know if a third party is the answer. The problem is the integrity of our politicians, the special interest groups, the unions, and big business that perverts our political process.

    While a few social programs already exist, adding more is NOT the answer either. I am for LIMITED government because I don’t want my liberties taken away: I don’t want the government controlling every aspect of my life. Freedom with Responsibility and Accountability! While compassion is admirable, we don’t need to create or cultivate an entitlement mentality, it breeds apathy.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Christine,

    I believe that the purpose of our government is to protect us from losing our liberties.

    The encroachment of big-business, special-interests, and those that would run-wild with unchecked power is the reason that we have a Constitution, in the first place.

    I just want us to find that common-ground.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos-/ Christine

    Common ground is a good thing; too bad way too many egos get in the way.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    What? Are you referring to here?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Christine,

    My back is giving out today, so I’ll have to break for a few hours.
    I will read and comment on your thread tonight.

    ;]you, betcha! lol in fun only, not mean.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    It’s number 336, Ruvy.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Jeannie,

    Christopher Rose is as obtuse today as he was in 2006. He was proven wrong by events and refuses to admit to this. That’s his problem, not mine. There comes a point where arguing with such an individual is a waste of time, and I reached that point about 2½ years ago.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Ruvy,

    I just wondered why, you hadn’t responded to him.

    I would have answered the last comment you directed towards me, but , we all got distracted.

    Now, I am on to a new article, and, a totally different topic.

    Contrary to what you appear to believe, I am not a mindless-blind follower of anyone, including President Obama.

    Although, even President Obama, would say, “That’s OK, Jeannie, think for yourself.”

    :] see you later, Ruvy. (I still like you, in-spite of yourself.)

  • endtyrany

    Hello all. Enjoyed reading all your comments. As far as the article I do not believe a 3rd party could help anything. The system is the problem and would need to be ratified. for as long as i can remember government has been growing and along with it so has corruption. They live hand and hand along with corrupt big buisness of our own making. A system has been continuously changed to allow manipulation of finance , law and the political electoral arena. Which
    would only allow those that cater to special intreast groups to florish in the political world. This I am afraid has been an agenda of the Elite for at least 100 years. Look forward to more unfair laws that favor the wealthy and more unfair taxes that target everyone else. I don’t care what they call it. They can call it a health reforms bill or a job creation bill it will still be only one thing and that is a way for the rich to get richer. In my opinion this will lead to a very angry public that might become violent which will give them what they want a reason to take away any rights americans have left. I am sorry to say its very late in the game and the middle class to no income americans
    will be in for a rude awakening and upper middle class to welloff will become there next targets till the rich have all the wealth. Welcome to a Brave New World !!!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    endtyrany,

    I hate to agree with you, but that’s the way I am feeling tonight.

    Tomorrow is another story, because I always wake up with hope. :)