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Thanks to Pres. Ahmadinejad, the Score is Israel 1, Iran 0

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First, this article came across the news wires:

After another temblor decimated parts of Pakistan earlier this month, the second-largest Muslim nation in the world agreed to accept help from the Jewish nation, setting the stage for boxes marked with the Star of David to begin heading east as soon as this week.  In a region where small gestures can mark the start of something much larger, Pakistan’s decision to take Israel’s aid is a political tremor that could shake up the Middle East landscape. …

In the weeks since Israel ended 38 years of military rule over the Gaza Strip by forcibly removing thousands of Jewish settlers who had lived amid 1.3 million Palestinians, it has racked up significant political rewards.  First came a long-planned public handshake in Istanbul, Turkey, between the foreign ministers of Israel and Pakistan, marking the first official contacts between the Jewish and Muslim nations.

Unfortunately, it was followed a few days later by this:

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad [of Iran] declared Wednesday that     Israel is a "disgraceful blot" that should be "wiped off the map" — fiery words that Washington said underscores its concern over     Iran’s nuclear program.  Ahmadinejad’s speech to thousands of students at a "World without Zionism" conference set a hard-line foreign policy course sharply at odds with that of his moderate predecessor.

So much for olive branches and creative diplomacy on Iran’s part.  But unfortunately, the destruction of Israel is one of the linchpins of Iran’s national security policy.  Should someone a little more pragmatic come along and say, "well… Israel ain’t all that bad," you’d here the swooshing noise of Iran’s internal credibility collapsing. 

Of course, many, many folks would find that a good thing… but before you start cheering at the thought, take a good long look at the historical record of states where the governments fail.  I don’t mean PM Blair or Pres. Bush falling out of favor, but rather states like Sudan, Democratic Republic of Congo, Somalia, your Balkans state of choice…

If you don’t see the common theme, allow me to explain:  failed or failing states are bad juju, for both the international community (can you say, "peacekeeping operation?") and the states immediately adjacent to the problem area.  A weak state is like a black hole, with the gravitational pull to drag in and crush anything nearby. 

With that, should Iran’s government evolve over time into a moderate and open minded Islamic state, that would be a good thing; should Iran fall swiftly and violently, we’d have three states in a row (Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan) riding the bleeding edge of domestic catastrophe. 

Thus although I don’t agree with Iran’s stance and thinkit would move forward as a nation by showing some good old-fashioned acceptance, I’m not in a hurry to see the Iranian government shift so radically and swiftly that it collapses from overextending.
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About Jim Fielder

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    David Fielder wrote,

    “In the weeks since Israel ended 38 years of military rule over the Gaza Strip by forcibly removing thousands of Jewish settlers who had lived amid 1.3 million Palestinians, it has racked up significant political rewards. First came a long-planned public handshake in Istanbul, Turkey, between the foreign ministers of Israel and Pakistan, marking the first official contacts between the Jewish and Muslim nations.

    Unfortunately, it was followed a few days later by this:

    President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad [of Iran] declared Wednesday that Israel is a ‘disgraceful blot’ that should be ‘wiped off the map'”

    A public handshake with a ‘strategic ally’ (that is the official relationship between Turkey and Israel) is a lynchpin of success? This is a significant political reward? And ten thousand people evicted from their homes and livelihoods who were promised homes by a lying government – and who are now refugees in their own country is also a lynchpin of success? Also a signifacant political reward?

    Fifteen Israelis dead from terror attacks since the expulsion from Gaza is another lynchpin of success, I suppose, another significant political reward.

    With such lynchpins of success, me and my countrymen can all die of heart attacks or terror attacks (does it make a difference? – one dead Jew is as good as another) and it will be a significant political reward if our graves are not uprooted by the Arabs!

    Yeah, right.

    Wake up kid! People marching in the streets of Arab towns calling for our slaughter are not peace partners – they are enemies who want to kill us. You are entitled to delusions, but any Israeli who thinks otherwise is a blithering idiot. And we deserve the Arabs’ contempt for not slaughtering them as they deserve, and listening to the scum from your country and the EU who would carve up this nation like a slab of meat and hand it over to them, maybe taking some choice bits for themselves along the way.

    Iran would not threaten nuclear destruction of Israel if they feared it. They don’t. They too, have contempt for Israel, and rightly so. We Jews have not rinsed our feet in the blood of our enemies, we have not instilled fear in their souls or driven them from the land that G-d gave us.

    Al Qaeda, in an interesting e-magazine article a month or two ago, gave this analyis. The Koran gives us Jews the right of ownership over the Land of Israel Al Qaeda recognizes the Divine promise of this Land to Israel. But we Jews, because we are willing to compromise this Land, have lost our right to it – because we refuse to put G-d and His promises before our own welfare.

    Boy, they have it on the money. And you are whistling past a graveyard like a fool. Our survival is not your fight in America – it’s ours. Unfortunately the traitors on Kiryat haMamshalá (government hill) downtown are whistling the same tune you are – and leading us to the graveyard you are whistling in.

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com alienboy

    Ruvy, it sounds like you need a holiday.

    I’d like to know a credible scenario in which Iran tries to implement this pipe dream policy of its new president.

  • http://redtard@hotmail.com RedTard

    AB, It’s really not that hard to imagine. If you keep the propaganda and rhetoric up long enough you just might convince some high level jihadist to pull the nuclear trigger prematurely.

    Granted, it would probably take a fairly large conspiracy to pull it off, but the level of hatred is so high that it might be possible.

    It is at least a scenario we should plan for ahead of time. My suggestion is to take preemptive action off the table and reimplement MAD. (If Israel goes, so does Tehran)

    My concern is that, as you pointed out, if a bomb does make it to Israel it will probably not be official Iranian policy. Their government will claim they had no prior knowledge and offer to help us in the investigation. The world will feel sorry for the innocent Iranian people who would be affected by retaliation and nothing will happen. Israel will be gone and no one will have the guts to do anything about it.

  • http://redtard@hotmail.com RedTard

    They could also offer one to terrorists who would smuggle it in. After the detonation it would be pretty difficult to determine where the weapon came from. North Korea, Iran, and Russia would all point the fingers at each other and again we would not be able to retaliate.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Ahmedinijad is a walking argument for the US reversing the 1978 executive order prohibiting assassination.

    Dave

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Bear in mind that the Iranians (as opposed to the Arabs) would have to be subject to a first strike strategy. We here are too small for a MAD strategy. If Israel uses its nukes, it has to hit first, hit fast and hit hard – without mercy.

    Similarly, if Egypt did become a threat (they are getting there fast), our nukes would have to destroy the Aswan High Dam.

    But in the event of any of these scenarios, Israel would have to be prepared to go it alone. That means no tourists, no imports, an economic boycott by the Europeans and Americans, and very possibly an attack from either of the two. There is no Israeli government now that has the cojones to pull it off.

    A pity.

    Alienboy, in Israel we all need a holiday – especially from the trash that comes out of the US State Department, the EU, the Vatican and the other vultures who pretend friendship while trying to do us in.

  • http://themadpigeon.blogs.com Jim Fielder

    “Kid?”

    Lessee… I’m fluent in Persian, have a masters in Middle East National Security studies, am a Middle East Foreign Area Officer, and have studied Middle Eastern affairs professionally since 1994. I think I know a thing or two.

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com alienboy

    RedTard,

    I think you’ll find the Iranians have their own command and control system that wouldn’t simply allow “some high level jihadist to pull the nuclear trigger prematurely”. After all, Israel is the biggest nuclear power in the region. And it’s not as simple as letting off a firework in the street.

    And there is no way that the entire Iranian nuclear arsenal, if they have one, could cause a situation in which “Israel will be gone”.

    Mr Nalle, the problem with these kind of policies is that it also gives permission to other countries to do the same thing. Look how many countries have copied the US military’s handling of prisoners.

    IF the USA was some kind of tried, tested and proven fair judge and witness, it may possibly merit the role of global policeman, but it isn’t and it doesn’t.

    I don’t agree with the perspective personally, but if your idea became accepted, you guys would be as much targets as executioners so it would rapidly become very ugly. Bad idea.

    Ruvy, you DEFINITELY do need a holiday quite urgently…

  • http://flippedoutdotcom.blogspot.com/ preston parkhurst

    “Alienboy, in Israel we all need a holiday – especially from the trash that comes out of the US State Department, the EU, the Vatican and the other vultures who pretend friendship while trying to do us in.”

    Trash from the US state dept.? you mean that trash known as billions of American tax payer dollars in the form of foriegn aid welfare… that trash?

    Personally I think all US foreign aid should be suspended, particularly to the two biggest welfare nations of Israel and Egypt. Jihadist, Jewish supremecist, you people deserve each other.

    the sad part about you radical mullah’s is that you so detract from those Jews and Muslims who are not so steeped in reigious dogma that have half a chance of brokering peace.

  • steve

    after reading this blog about Iran’s “leader” it makes me wonder who is higher on Bush’s shitlist…Iran or N/Korea? Iran and North Korea both have armies far superior to that of Saddam’s. I hope none of this hits the fan.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>”Kid?”

    Lessee… I’m fluent in Persian, have a masters in Middle East National Security studies, am a Middle East Foreign Area Officer, and have studied Middle Eastern affairs professionally since 1994. I think I know a thing or two.<<

    Well, Ruvy is a cranky old Israeli guy. Assuming I’m correct on the ‘old’ part you could still be a ‘kid’ from his perspective. Graduate degrees, languages spoken and job experience don’t actually alter your relative chronological age. That’s been my experience with some people and it doesn’t necessarily mean much. I suspect I’m older than you are and I’ve got academic and professional qualifications galore and I know a couple of people who call me kid.

    Plus, no one can tell any of that stuff on the web. No matter how well you write or how solid your ideas are they stand on their own, and a talented 16 year old can sometimes come off just as sharp and informed as a qualified expert. To some degree that’s what makes this forum so valuable, you’re judged solely on the quality of your writing and insights, not on what degrees you have or what you’ve done out in the real world.

    As for this discussion, I don’t think that you and Ruvy are actually working at cross-purposes here. You’ve just got different perspectives on the issue, clearly both well informed and valid. But there’s a huge difference from working for the State Department and studying the area and living day to day in Israel.

    From what I can tell Ruvy has a much more balanced perspective on the middle east than I’d expect from an Israeli, so put aside the offhand comment about you being a ‘kid’ and the fact that you don’t agree 100% and perhaps the two of you could engage in mutually beneficial exchange of ideas. I know I’d find it informative.

    Dave

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    I was writing something up earlier but after the third or fouth paragraph, I hit the wrong key and lost everything. Not only am I an old crank, I’m a lousy typist!

    I’ll be sending out several posts to avoid losing one long one.

    Jim, Dave Nalle said a lot of what I was going to say, only somewhat better. I didn’t mean “kid” in a derogatory fashion. From what you write about yourself, I’m probably half a generation older than you. I’m sure you know about Iran and would be loathe to question your expertise on it, but you don’t know what it is like to live here as an average joe. Were I a foreign service officer here, I wouldn’t know either.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Preston, you must be under the impression that American “aid” is money injected into the treasury here. It’s an understandable mistake. About 1% of American “aid” is spent on administering a program by which Israel gets to spend American money in the United States.

    What does this mean? It means that tanners in Beersheba making boots for the IDF lose their jobs because the Israeli Security Ministry is spending that money buying lower quality boots made in Ohio. American “aid” means that Israel buys M16s from your country instead of making the Galil rifle here, buys American tanks, jets and missiles instead of making them here. American “aid” means dependence on your government for supplies, rather than independence from it. That is why your government “gives” the “aid.” It allows the State Department to buy up our politicians like so many judges bought up by a party machine, and then these politicians say how dependent this country is on your government.

    The fact of the matter is we don’t need you. Your government is an unreliable “ally” and in reality, is more of an enemy than anything else. I’d be very happy if you wrote your congressman and senator saying that not only are you opposed to American aid, but Israelis don’t want it either. The sooner we are weaned of the American aid “nipple” the safer we will be.

    We can make our own computers, tanks, rifles, ammo, uniforms, airplanes, avionics systems, TV’s, refrigerators and a whole lot more. We don’t need your government getting in the way every single time our companies work up a deal with a foreign country to sell them defence equipment. We don’t need your country constantly telling us how WE have to follow a road map or be supportive of another Arab country here, how WE have to make concessions, etc. etc.

    We don’t need five American basea on our soil, we con’t need NATO protection, we don’t need your spies, lies and dictating our future to us. It would be a great idea if the American government packed up its briefcase and got the hell out of OUR country – the one WE have fought and died for.

  • Dave Nalle

    If only someone over here was listening to you, Ruvy. Especially some of the Jewish organizations, their lobbyists and people like Joe Lieberman on Capitol Hill. It would be a hell of a lot better for Israel if it had that greater dependence you talk about, and the US would benefit as well in many ways.

    Of course, the amount we spend on Israel is pretty small, especially considering so much comes back into our own economy.

    There’s also the issue that if Israel were truly independent we might not like what it was doing with its independence. As I recall there was a time when Israel was rather free with its own military aid in the form of weapons contracts and military advice and training for rather questionable governments like the post colonial governments of Rhodesia and South Africa.

    Dave

  • http://flippedoutdotcom.blogspot.com/ Preston Parkhurst

    < The fact of the matter is we don't need you. Your government is an unreliable "ally" and in reality, is more of an enemy than anything else. >

    < we don't need your spies, lies and dictating our future to us. It would be a great idea if the American government packed up its briefcase and got the hell out of OUR country >

    I happen to completely agree with you, please return the money, an no, no personal checks accepted. I am all for Israel standing on its own feet for a change, left alone to pursue its own interest and self determination. Please take your lobby which is now the second largest in the United States when you go.

    As to the spies, please inform those under the current FBI investigation; the AIPAC spying case that they should have remained at home. You are welcome to have Johnathon Pollard’s head on a platter too if you like, as we used to hang spies in the United States before we went soft under the influence of a lobby with exorbitant funding.

    who says you can’t come to an agreement with those in the Middle East.

  • http://livefromblogdahd.blogspot.com/ demabloggery

    And we deserve the Arabs’ contempt for not slaughtering them as they deserve
    ====================
    Okay, coming from a viewpoint that does agree that force is often required in dealing with Arab tribalism in the form of governments, I’m completely horrified at this statement.

  • Ruvy from Jerusalem

    Wallace, I find myself horrified that I should have to consider that a slaughter of Arabs here is required. But I live here. If I intend to continue to live here, I cannot afford the Duke of Queensbury rules in dealing with people who say flat out, “slaughter the Jews!”

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com alienboy

    But they’re not doing it, are they Ruvy?

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Preston, I’m pleased that you agree with me. If I could call up Sharon and tell him, “hey Arik! It’s time to cut bait with the Yanks and go tend your cows!”, I would. Unfortunately, all that would get me would be a visit from the Shabak (our version of the secret service and FBI combined) and a number of long hours in a back room with unpleasant young men who have no respect for their elders.

    It will be a little harder than all that, I’m afraid.

    And as for the American “professional Jews,” they will not leave your shores on their own accord. They like the life of beggars with suits on. They figure they are doing us a service and avoiding having to move here at the same time – two for one, you see.

    A more “biblical” solution will just have to be found.

    I’ll pray on the matter.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Sorry, Alienboy, you lost me. Who are they, and what are they not doing?

    By the way, about that holiday you say I need so badly. Are you springing for it?

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com alienboy

    >people who say flat out, “slaughter the Jews!”

    In the interests of not perpetuating stereotypes, I’ll just say LOL!

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Dave, unfortunately, the Jews in exile have an establishment with an agenda of their own. If they don’t send their kids over here to fight in the IDF (or come over themselves), they feel guilty. So they write checks and try to make peace with the butchers who want us dead. As I pointed out to Preston, they are happy to do us here a “favor” and beg for money, and then not have to make aliya (immigrate here).

    And our politicians, being the high class individuals they are (drunks like Rabin, sadists like Peres, bullies like Sharon, thieves like Olmert) get into the schnorring (begging) game themselves. So they get rich and we stay poor. We lose honor. We lose respect. We lose self-respect.

    The fools in the States, these Jews who think they are doing us such a mitzva by bargaining away our honor by begging, don’t want to hear reality.

    They want to be the eternal victims. And in buying themselves victimhood, they drag us down with them, making us terror victims in the process. It stinks, Dave, it stinks. I never thought I’d hear myself say this, but we’re better off without the rich alrightniks in America. They should stay there and leave us alone.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Ah Alienboy – so you mean that the Arabs who scream “Itbahh el Yahud!” are not quite succeeding, eh? Well, it’s not because they aren’t trying, I’ll tell you that much.

    Five dead in Hadera, four in Judea – not a slaughter, but every dead Jew is cause for celebration for them. The Germans were a lot more efficient. But then again, we’re armed now.

    There are 80 terror alerts a day and the cops and Border Patrol here are so frazzled they don’t know what to do with themselves.

    Alienboy, we need a holiday from restraining ourselves and literally dying to please Bush and Condaleezza Rice. Our army has to feel it is succeeding. Killing a few top dogs here and there is nice, but it is not the solution.

    The Arabs feel no fear. They feel, and rightly so, that the Americans will restrain us if we succeed in defeating their terrorists. A startegy must be implemented to break the Arab spirit in defiance of the world. It is not hard to do. But the traitors on government hill here will not do it. That is because their spirit – their will to win – has been brken.

    So, something else will have to be thought of.

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com alienboy

    No, Ruvy, the point is that there really is not any serious intention to either kill you all or wipe Israel off the map.

    If you want a different life, you need to change the game. If Palestine was able to become a full independent nation, the whole equation would be changed for ever. It’s going to happen anyway sooner or later…

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Alienboy, you may want to fly over here and tell the 1,800 families who have lost loved ones what you told me.

    But before you spend the airfare, consider this. If the Arabs had wanted an independent state next to ours, they could hav had one in 1948 by not going to war against us. They could have had one in 2000, too. That’s what was on the table in July, 2000 at Camp David. Arafat walked away.

    He said no.

    That Arabs do not want a Palestine side by side with us at all. They want the whole thing and us out or dead. That is what they tell their own people, what they teach their children. That is why they hold on to rusty keys to apartments that don’t even exist in Haifa, Lod, Ramle, Yafo.

    I’m sorry to tell you this but you are dead wrong in your assertions.

    There will be a change and this State will no longer be here in a few years. But an Arab state will NOT rise in its place, or even alongside. That will not occur.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    If the Palestinians wanted independence fine. But the goal of the Palestinians is to wipe out the Israel and the Jews. They will never rest until that goal is accomplished.

    Ruvy, you are welcomed here in the States any time but I do admire the Jews for standing strong.

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com alienboy

    Anthony, you are just making this up, the Palestinians do NOT have that goal at all. Please don’t make up such ridiculous statements because it undermines your credibility.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    Alienboy, you must not know any then.

    I know plenty of Palestinians and they all proudly admit it.

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com alienboy

    That doesn’t prove anything Anthony, try and take the convo a bit more seriously will ya?

    I know plenty of people that have all kinds of wacky views; all Americans are bastards, the Welsh are mean, Italians are good lovers, people with ginger hair should be banned, whatever. People say a lot of things for a lot of different reasons.

  • http://themadpigeon.blogs.com Jim Fielder

    *Bows to Dave and Ruvy* Point taken, gentlemen; I suppose I overreacted a bit!

    That said, being this is only my second article I’m impressed with the discourse here–nothing like spirited debate!

  • http://ezsgblog.com/vtdawson/index.php Bennett

    Agreed. I’ve enjoyed the coments, and encourage Ruvy to continue to visit and comment. Sir, you write clearly and passionately, and I’d love to count you as a member of blogcritics.

    Despite the prevailing politics, many of us wish you well, and hope for a lasting peace for Israel.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    >>Anthony, you are just making this up, the Palestinians do NOT have that goal at all. Please don’t make up such ridiculous statements because it undermines your credibility.<<

    While Palestinians as a group do not have the goal Anthony ascribes to them, they are a people with a serious cultural identity problem, and many of them owe a primary allegiance to organizations with larger goals than just the interest of the Palestinian people. Thus, there are many Palestinians whose primary interest IS the elimination of Israel, acting as the spearhead of movements which spread throughout the Arab world.

    Dave

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    Why is that liberals support the Palestinians more than the Israelis???

    Was it Clinton’s freindship with that terrorist bastard, Arafat???

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    There’s a strong and growing element of anti-semitism in the Democratic party, particularly on the extremes. I think that has a lot to do with their dislike of Israel. I suspect it came into the party with their absorbtion of more and more elements of the hard-line communist and socialist movements which have always been linked to the most extreme elements of organized labor, and which as a group are highly anti-semitic, associating jews with management and banking interests from Europe which they’ve seen as their historic exploiters.

    Dave

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com alienboy

    Dave, please don’t butt in with your pointless attempts to confuse matters (your favourite tactic).

    Anthony said that the Palestinians wanted to destroy the Jews and Israel and they don’t, no matter if there is a large, vocal minority that say they do. That’s what we just said so your contribution as usual doesn’t HELP.

    Anthony, if you want a convo that’s fine but if you don’t stop deliberately making provocative and false statements that seem designed to inflame rather than persuade and/or inform, I’m going to consider taking A STRICTER LINE IN EDITING YOU.

    Finally, Dave, your #34, is again a pile of faulty interpretation based on the massive and frankly bizarre line of logic that seems to emanate from you. There is a strong and growing dislike of Israel in the West due to its current policies which, to the many mostly disinterested parties looking on, seem excessive and not designed to bring closure to a difficult problem.

    You however, manage to tie that in to your persistent and false riff which is basically insulting to a variety of groups that you seem to enjoy attacking for motives that remain unclear.

    Stand back everybody, here comes the now standard Nalle rebuttal…

  • http://bhw@bhwblog.com bhw

    There’s a strong and growing element of anti-semitism in the Democratic party,

    How about you provide a source for that completely unfounded accusation?

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    I’m curious what the ‘now standard Nalle rebuttal’ would be. As usual, I’ll just stick with facts. I have to break this down into two comments because of the URLs involed.

    First off, there’s home grown anti-semitism within the various factions which make up the Democratic party. This trend is particularly strong among african americans. For details on this I refer you to an excellent article in the Seattle Times. Figures like Reverend Al Sharpton, Rep. Cynthia McKinney and Rev. Jesse Jackson are prominent in the party and courted by its leaders and they are openly anti-semitic. Anti-semitism is also an element in American socialism which was inherited from Stalinist Russia, and since these are the people who make up the new radical left, they have brought those beliefs with them. Some of this is addressed in this article. To see examples of this all you have to do is spend some time cruising topics related to 9/11 on sites like Democratic Underground.

    (continued)

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    In addition, there’s the growing influence within the Democratic party of European left-wing intellectualism and one-world governmentism with its anti-semitic, pro-islamic tendencies. For a detailed examination of this problem I refer you to the chapter beginning on page 11 of this report from the American Jewish Committee. Note how this article differentiates the increasingly widespread and growing anti-semitism of the left from the more traditional and much more limited anti-semitism of the extreme right in Europe. This leftist anti-semitism is closely linked to anti-Americanism because America is seen by many in Europe as essentially run by Jews. European anti-semitism from the left goes hand in hand with the anti-semitism which is clear in United Nations policies. Those on the left who embrace the UN as our savior from the limitations of US government also often embrace its tradition of anti-semitism. This is a problem which even the UN acknowledges. Kofi Annan has spoken about it and there is an effort underway to try to reverse some of the anti-semitic attitudes in the UN, part of an awareness which shows how bad the problem has been in the past. There’s a lot of information about this on http://www.unwatch.org. And a good article on it here.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Urgh, I seem to have cut my conclusion off the last comment.

    Anyway…

    What is very clear from all of this is that anti-semitism on the political left is strong and growing, both in Europe and in the United States. You can deny it all you like, but the evidence is pretty overwhelming. I’m not saying that most mainstream democrats are anti-semites, but just as reasonable people in the GOP have to deal with homophobes, the reasonable people in the democratic party need to realize that they are sharing their party with some pretty crazy anti-semites.

    I’ll leave you with a quote from the late Simon Wisenthal:

    “…the left blames the Jews, as a collective, for what happened in Lebanon. However not just the radical left-wing but also socialist circles, personalities, journalists, and socialist youth movements, totally blame the Jew. Today both the left and the right use the same language and the same anti-Semitism slogans. Our enemies realized, suddenly, that one could harm Jews by means of an attack on Israel.”

    Dave

  • troll

    I qoute from Wisenthal as well:

    “the term ‘anti-Semitism’ is cheapened when it is used opportunistically or for political reasons.”

    troll

  • Dave Nalle

    Well troll, let’s not call it anti-semitism then. Let’s call it a tendancy of some on the lef to think that jews are conspiring to run the world and especially the US. You need only look at recent postings on BC from ‘historian’ to see how real this problem is.

    Dave

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com alienboy

    Dave, as usual, you try to cling to the facts, all the while never realising that your facts are merely your interpretation.

    To start from the rise of anti-semitism is putting the cart before the horse, the effect before the cause.

    What you call anti-Semitism (which does really exist but is a somewhat different phenomenon to this) is more a rising tide of revulsion at and reaction against the increasingly aggressive tactics employed by the Sharon government against the Palestinians.

    Israel is the dominant power in the region and bears a proportionately large responsibility for what happens there.

    Nobody outside the extremists on either side believes there will ever be any other outcome than the eventual establishment of a Palestinian state.

    Israel could do a lot more to hasten this situation if it chose to but prefers the status quo, the grinding mutual counterattacks and the continual production of grief and sorrow on both sides.

    This alone is enough to produce a reduction in sympathy and support for a country and people that have gone from the sad position of persecuted to the possibly even worse role of oppressor but it is not anti-semitism.

  • troll

    let’s keep the term and drop the politics – parties of the left and right need to clean the shite from their shorts

    I’m sure those on the left appreciate your assistance in identifying their racists

    archetypal race fear is ubiquitous

    troll

  • Dave Nalle

    You didn’t read the links and completely miss the point, Alienboy. I didn’t say ‘anti-zionism’, did I? It’s not the same thing as anti-semitism. I’m not talking about anything as simple as distrusting or not liking Israel for their policies. I’m talking about the people who think the Jews control the government, plotted the 9/11 attacks and maintain a massive world wide conspiracy to oppress everyone else. Israel’s troubling behavior certainly contributes to negative feelings about jews in general, but the real problem is much more pervasive.

    Dave

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com alienboy

    Dave, you seem to have forgotten that you are commenting on my point, so I’ll be deciding what it’s about, thank you.

    Most people don’t care about Zionism that much one way or the other and only the paranoid would believe that trash you describe in # 44.

    I didn’t read your three part comment in detail, partly as it wasn’t relevant and partly that you seem to lack understanding of the usefulness of paragraphs.

    Anyway, back in the real world, Anthony Grande, no longer Sane or Sensible apparently (Anthony no ASS, lol) was making the claim that the Palestinians want “to wipe out the Israel and the Jews” which I dispute, when you chimed in with your mistaken claim about anti-Semitism.

    So there we have it, 20 posts to get nowhere.

  • troll

    Alienboy – on what do you base your repeated claim that the elimination of Israel (and the Jews) is not in the ordinary Palestinian’s dreams – ?

    troll

  • http://livefromblogdahd.blogspot.com/ demabloggery

    Wallace, I find myself horrified that I should have to consider that a slaughter of Arabs here is required. But I live here. If I intend to continue to live here, I cannot afford the Duke of Queensbury rules in dealing with people who say flat out, “slaughter the Jews!”
    ====================
    I’m not getting the impression that you differentiate between one arab to the next when you demand their slaughter. If you are going to complain about the indiscrimnate murder of Jew, perhaps you shouldn’t be advocating the indiscriminate murder of arabs. Because they you aren’t defending civilization, and I have no reason to support you any more than I should support the Syrians. You should never let your oppressor become your teacher.

  • http://livefromblogdahd.blogspot.com/ demabloggery

    I’m afraid there is a lot of popular opinion among Palestinians in favor of murdering Jews.

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com alienboy

    Troll, that isn’t what I said; if you must pitch in, at least try to stay current will ya?

    For the record, I was rebutting Anthony “not sane or sensible” Grande’s laughable statement that “the goal of the Palestinians is to wipe out the Israel and the Jews”.

    This is no more a literal statement of intent than when I used to sincerely propose that the world would be a better place without gingerheads, a plan that very few people objected to.

  • http://flippedoutdotcom.blogspot.com/ Preston Parkhurst

    Dave Nalle said: “Ahmedinijad is a walking argument for the US reversing the 1978 executive order prohibiting assassination.”

    Well Israel already engages in political assassination, and it quite open about it. Remember Gerald Buhl?

    As to these notions of anti-Semitism, well when folks in Israel say things like the following:

    “The fact of the matter is we don’t need you. Your government is an unreliable “ally” and in reality, is more of an enemy than anything else”

    When people openly consider my country an ENEMY then does this not justify in the least bit some ill will towards Israel? However as Ruvy accurately pointed out, that if I do harbor ill will towards Israel, I am then branded as an anti-Semite and my argument whether valid or not is then wrote off as just being espoused by a person of hate.

    I for one think Ruvy’s writings should be printed in the New York Times or the Washington Post on a daily basis, because even though I may not agree with his method or modus operandi, I do agree that our strange attachment to Israel is a hindrance to any other relationship we may have in the Middle East.

  • troll

    sorry Alien – I didn’t catch the abstract subtlety of your point…I thought that you were saying something about real Palestinians

    troll

  • http://livefromblogdahd.blogspot.com/ demabloggery

    I do agree that our strange attachment to Israel is a hindrance to any other relationship we may have in the Middle East.
    ===================
    America has ties with liberal democracies instead of fascist dictatorships because we are a liberal democracy. I don’t see it as strange at all. I do see the amount of money poured into Israel, and the equivalent amount into Egypt, as curious. Trust me when I say that Israel and America’s relationship is one of convenience for both parties, and that AIPAC wouldn’t be worth shit if there wasn’t oil in the mideast two steps from Israel.

    Anti-semitism is when people say “jews control the media” or “zionists control the whitehouse”.

  • http://livefromblogdahd.blogspot.com/ demabloggery

    I do agree that our strange attachment to Israel is a hindrance to any other relationship we may have in the Middle East.
    ===================
    I would say that mideast nations’ dedication to either silence on the matter of terrorism or half-baked attempts to squelch it are a greater hindrance than Israel. Israel is the canary in the coal mine. The arabs hate Israel because it’s like a little piece of the US right smack in the middle of mohammedland. WOmen’s rights, free speech, freedom of religion and Press? ALLAH AKBAR!!!!!!!!

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Wallace, the fact that we prefer the Israeli form of government is not strange. What is strange is that we go so far beyond the norm of our support of other democracies on its behalf. What I particularly resent is choice that was made to abandon Lebanon which at one time had one of the best secular, capitalistic societies in the region, in favor of Israel back in the 1960s.

    Dave

  • http://livefromblogdahd.blogspot.com/ demabloggery

    What is strange is that we go so far beyond the norm of our support of other democracies on its behalf. What I particularly resent is choice that was made to abandon Lebanon which at one time had one of the best secular, capitalistic societies in the region, in favor of Israel back in the 1960s.
    ————————–
    I’m not familiar with that version of Lebanese history. I do know that they had capitalism and some type of pluralistic society, but I don’t recall it being democratic and I don’t recall it going to shit because we didn’t support it. Lebanon went bad because of the Palestinians, whose attacks caused Israel’s invasion, triggering Syria’s invasion, and then the Israelis fucked the Lebanese Christians by leaving.

    I’ll have to do a little research.

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com alienboy

    Troll, you just didn’t catch my point, period. I’ll leave the fantasy life to you

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Golly, I don’t know where to begin. I go out to pay a couple of bills and go on patrol with the Civil Guard and here I have someone promoting me to be published daily in the Grey Lady and the Washington Post!

    Let’s start there. Thanks Preston!

    I don’t remember saying that your arguments would be branded as anti-Semitism, but many would view them that way and therefore dismiss them.

    I don’t.

    Saying that your country is an unreliable ally and an enemy is not meant as a provocation, though I realize how it might be taken that way.

    Unfortunately, it is a statement of fact. I say unfortunately, because Americans are damned decent people, by and large. Your government loses for you all the capital of good will that you as citizens build up through your decency.

    What follows below is copied from a letter I wrote to a fellow in Connecticut about a year ago, with a couple of modifications given that you are not him.

    “If Russia was the imperial power in the world, I would be denouncing it – if it were the Brits, I would be denouncing them. But America is the imperial power in the world. That’s the way it is. Period. This imperial power interferes in the way this country (Israel) runs and it costs lives. Our lives.

    Now let’s get down to the specifics of the case: What is it that America does that is so bad for Israel?

    When Begin’s Etzel blew up the King David Hotel downtown in 1946, the Brits said they had had it. The Palestine Mandate, given them by the League of Nations in 1920, was just too much and they dumped the whole mess of pottage in the laps of the brand spanking new UN, and told them that they had until May 15, 1948 to figure things out, because that was when the British high commissioner was setting sail. Let’s start there.

    1. In 1947, there were two Jewish underground armies fighting the British and the Arabs, the Haganah and the Etzel. The Arabs were more or less armed by the British, who ran the “Arab Legion.” Other Arab forces operating from Syria and Egypt had no trouble getting arms. Nobody would openly sell arms to the Jewish underground armies, except the Czechs, on orders from the Soviets. The best source of arms in the world was the US, where the new ‘Army-Navy’ stores were selling overstock from WWII.

    The American government declared that it would not allow arms to be shipped to Palestine. Since the Arabs were having no trouble getting arms, this meant that the Jews were getting screwed over. Jewish groups bribed the mayor of New York to look the other way and shipments of arms got to Palestine anyway. Jewish groups organized a “Panamanian” airline, and smuggled arms using it. But the oh so holy Americans would not dirty their hands with the matter, pretending neutrality all the time. It took a lot to get the Americans to vote for partition in November, 1947, and after the vote had been taken, the Amricans tried hard to sandbag the drive for an independent Jewsh state.

    The Americans didn’t do a damned thing good for this country. They tried to persuade Ben Gurion not to declare a state. When that failed, they sat on their hands and did nothing.

    When a young kid in Tzahal named Yitzhak Rabin, managed to get as far as El Arish in 1949, beginning the thorough defeat of the Egyptians who invaded this country, the Americans demanded that the Israelis pull out of the Sinai or face having their recognition pulled. Ben Gurion made a big mistake then – he did what the Americans told him to do.

    2. In 1956, when the Brits and the French were looking for a way to get back at Abdel Nasser (the Egyptian general who negotiated the exit of his soldiers from the “Faluja Pocket” that Tzahal had stuck them in in 1949) for nationalizing the canal that they had built, they conned the Israelis into going along with them and invading the Sinai while they seized Suez. The Israelis took four days to defeat the Egyptians. President Eisenhower demanded that Israel withdraw. Ben Gurion at least refused to withdraw from Gaza until March 1957, demanding guarantees – UN troops in Sinai to prevent an Egyptian attack on this country.

    3. In 1967, after bullshitting for several weeks in the face of an Egyptian blockade of the Red Sea and an alliance with Syria and Jordan, the Americans told the Israelis that if they waited for an Arab attack, they could expect aid from America. If the Israelis attacked, Abba Eban was told, the Israelis were on their own. The Israelis attacked, and when they saw an American spy ship transmitting to the Egyptians, they destroyed it.

    4. The Israelis were given the same line from the United States in 1973 when all sorts of intelligence information indicated an Arab attack on or about Yom Kippur. Unfortunately, Golda Meir didn’t have the guts that Lwevi Eshcol did 6 years earlier. She did as told. Her decision cost Israel around 2,000 lives and nearly led to the defeat of the country.

    The aid that was promised to this country by the United States in the event of the attack – was held up by Henry Kissinger until Alex Haig confronted him about it in front of Richard Nixon. And after Haig confronted Kissinger, he made sure that Kissinger didn’t renege by going to the airplanes to supervise the loading of tanks and missiles.

    Now – have you noticed which country has not been on our side – as its government lied through its teeth that it was?

    Which country forced the Israelis not to retaliate against Iraqi Scud attacks in 1991 by withholding identity codes so that Israeli planes would not be shot down by “Coalition” forces? Which country forced Yitzhak Shamir to travel to Madrid in 1991? On the lawn of which country’s executive mansion was Oslo signed? Which country forced Israel to withdraw from Hebron at Wye Plantation? Which country is trying very hard to push us out of OUR land with its roadmap plan?

    I haven’t got all night to write – otherwise I’d detail all this further.

    Have you figured out the answer yet? It’s the USA.”

  • http://livefromblogdahd.blogspot.com/ demabloggery

    If the Israelis attacked, Abba Eban was told, the Israelis were on their own. The Israelis attacked, and when they saw an American spy ship transmitting to the Egyptians, they destroyed it.
    ====================
    Ah…the USS Liberty from an paranoid conspiracist Israeli bent! After countless investigations and decades of research, the fact that it was an accident is inconvenient to your world view.
    ====================

  • http://livefromblogdahd.blogspot.com/ demabloggery

    The aid that was promised to this country by the United States in the event of the attack – was held up by Henry Kissinger until Alex Haig confronted him about it in front of Richard Nixon. And after Haig confronted Kissinger, he made sure that Kissinger didn’t renege by going to the airplanes to supervise the loading of tanks and missiles.
    =========================
    SO they got the tanks and missiles but that wasn’t friendship?

  • http://livefromblogdahd.blogspot.com/ demabloggery

    Which country forced the Israelis not to retaliate against Iraqi Scud attacks in 1991 by withholding identity codes so that Israeli planes would not be shot down by “Coalition” forces?
    ======================
    The country that prevented an escalating conflict from engulfing the entire region. It’s safe to say that if Israel had invaded through Jordan, the coalition would have collapsed and a greater war would have ensued. BUt given your aspirations of a greater Israel (our land?) and the fact that you are armed to the teeth with American weapons to the tune of billions of dollars, you probably liked the idea.

  • http://livefromblogdahd.blogspot.com/ demabloggery

    Which country is trying very hard to push us out of OUR land with its roadmap plan?
    ==================
    You mean the West Bank? Why exactly my fucking money is being used to build settlements for people from New York and Russia while destitute Arabs don’t any of the billion or so dollars the US sends to Israel is beyond me. SO you captured the land in the war. Pay for the settlements yourselves and send my tax dollars back.

    PS, anyone watching this conversation should be convinced of the lack of a international Jewish conspiracy, since it’s almost impossible to find two Jews who agree on anything.

  • troll

    Alienboy says: *Anthony said that the Palestinians wanted to destroy the Jews and Israel and they don’t, no matter if there is a large, vocal minority that say they do.*

    and: *Anthony, you are just making this up, the Palestinians do NOT have that goal at all.*

    and again: *No, Ruvy, the point is that there really is not any serious intention to either kill you all or wipe Israel off the map.*

    and I ask again – based on what evidence do you make these claims – ?

    troll

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com alienboy

    troll, on what evidence do you support the claim that the Palestinians want to destroy the Jews and Israel?

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    Alienboy, on what evidence do you base that all the Palestinians want is indepence???

    Usually you do alright and don’t loose your mind. What happened to you here???

    The major major major majority of Palestinians call for death to all Israelis.

    I thought that this was a known fact. Maybe instead of asking for a web site you should go outside and ask your next door neighbor what he knows about Palestinians.

    Or call a freind or something.

    Ruvy, what do you think about this issue???

  • troll

    Alien – my question was not facetious

    if my parents and grandparents had been forced off our land and out of our village and I had been raised in a ‘camp’ or some other shitty circumstace I’d be pissed and might well want to get every inch of my people’s land back at any cost (no matter how much of a myth ‘my people’s land’ may have become in the meantime)

    What makes you think that Palestinians generally are prepared to co-exist with Israel – ?

    troll

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com alienboy

    Anthony, I didn’t make such a claim so if anyone’s losing their mind, that would be you. I simply pointed out that your statement was wrong.

    and troll, you see, that’s how you think, but the Palestinians generally just want to get on with their lives. To imply as you are that the extremists there are the Palestinians is either ignorant or wilfully malicious, the same as it would have been to equate the IRA with the Irish.

    It is clearly Israel that is the aggressive player in the scenario; the question is are they prepared to rein in the Israeli extremists and cut a deal?

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Alienboy, you wrote,

    “To imply as you are that the extremists there are the Palestinians is either ignorant or wilfully malicious, the same as it would have been to equate the IRA with the Irish.

    It is clearly Israel that is the aggressive player in the scenario; the question is are they prepared to rein in the Israeli extremists and cut a deal?”

    The PLO has and its allies has been pushing that line for two decades to any pisher who would buy it. The bald fact of the matter is that cutting a deal was tried in 1993; the “deal” was Oslo. “Shutting up the extremists” was heavily pushed by Shimon Peres after Mr. Rabin got assassinated a decade ago. After the assassination of Rabin, it was open season on opponents to the Oslo Death Process. I will return to this later.

    The illusion of the deal came to a head in July 2000 when Arafat was offered independence at Camp David and walked away. I will repeat this again. Arafat was offered independence and walked away.

    In the Arab mass terror campaign that followed, the terrorists were largely the “security” forces that Arafat recruited using aid money from the EU. I’m not making this up either. The evidence was found when Israeli troops had to storm the Mukata in 2002.

    To equate the PA with the IRA would be an insult to the IRA and the Irish both. The PA was and is a thugocracy devoted to stealing money either for the benefit of the thieves or for use in killing Jews or driving out Arab Christians. Their steady drumbeat of “kill the Jew” propaganda is broadcast daily and monitored by Palestine Media Watch. Google it up and you’ll see.

    Under Israeli rule, the Arab towns in Judea, Samaria and Gaza were relatively prosperous. The standard of living has fallen in all these places since Arafat was allowed to put his hands into the cookie jar.

    Do understand, I’m not that bothered by Arabs screaming”, “itbahh el Yahud.” They’ve been doing it for decades. As long as we could keep the resident Arabs scared enough not to follow up on the screams, it was okay.

    But Europeans would be jumping up and down in outrage if a mob of Jews marched through the streets on a nigh eekly basis screaming “mavet el Aravim” carrying banners and rifles, aided and abetted by the Israel Police. THAT doesn’t happen. This is standard operating procedure in Arab towns here.

    There have been occasional massacres of Arabs over the last 60 years or so. I will not deny this. One was a battle at Deir Yassin, one was done by unit 101 in Jordan in the early ’50’s, and one recently about a decade ago in Hebron. The specific facts surrounding all of these events are mired in controversy, but one fact does stand out. Innocent people were massacred.

    Measured against the terror attacks aginst Jews in this country, from the attacks of the Fidayoun in the 1950’s to the kidnapping and murder of the Israeli Olympic team in 1972, to the hijacking of the Achille Lauro, the bus killings in Ma’alót thirty years ago, to the blowing up of the Park Hotel seder, the massacres of the Arabs pale. And in each of these instances, the perpetrators of the massacres were celebrated and feted.

    Israel has ofered its hand in peace to end this conflict – and its hand has been rejected. More accurate to say, its hand has been damn near cut off.

    An Arab state will not emerge in part of Eretz Yisrael because the Arabs want it all and will not settle for less. It wlll not emerge in all of Eretz Yisrael because people like me will die to stop it.

    Now to return to the open season on opponents of the Oslo Death Process. There was an election in Israel after the death of Rabin. Peres ran against Netanyahu for premier. Netanyahu won. Do you know why?

    In spite of the overwhewlming support in the press for Peres, despite all the laurels and peace prizes from the “world community”, despite all the demonising of fellow Israelis by the left wing here, the voters were swayed by the terror attacks carried out by the Arabs. Arafat ran a dictatorship. The attacks would not have occurred without his say so. Had Peres won, Arafat would have been virtually forced to agree to a state consisting of the former Jordanian and Egyptian occupied lands in Israel. But with Netanyahu in power, Arafat was free to pursue HIS goal, a state from the river to the sea.

    You don’t have to like the evidence, but it is all around you. You need only open your eyes to see it.

  • Dave Nalle

    >>I’m not familiar with that version of Lebanese history. I do know that they had capitalism and some type of pluralistic society, but I don’t recall it being democratic and I don’t recall it going to shit because we didn’t support it. Lebanon went bad because of the Palestinians, whose attacks caused Israel’s invasion, triggering Syria’s invasion, and then the Israelis fucked the Lebanese Christians by leaving.<<

    That’s close enough. My point is that we were willing to step in to save Israel, but unwilling to commit money or manpower to doing the same for Lebanon, the most pro-western Arab country in the middle east.

    Dave

  • Dave Nalle

    >>The major major major majority of Palestinians call for death to all Israelis.<<

    What numerical percentage would you say that is? From what I’ve seen most Palestinians just want to be left the hell alone and have some sort of reasonable government that treats them decently – which doesn’t mean Israel or necessarily the PLO surrogate government they will likely end up with. Yes, some of them are very anti-Israeli, but the situation has made them that way. I also doubt that about 99% of them wouldn’t bat an eye if a plague killed all the Israelis instantly. But most of them aren’t actively trying to exterminate all Israelis.

    Dave

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com alienboy

    Thanks for the unexpected support on this one, Dave.

  • troll

    I ask for evidence that the Palestinians population is not radicalized and anti-Israel and you give me presumption about human nature – most people just want to be left alone to get on with life so this must be the attitude of most Palestinians

    while I’d prefer that you give a link to ‘Palestinian Poets for Peace’ or make some other attempt to tie you prejudice down to real people I see that this isn’t going to happen

    thanks for sharing your optimism…

    and take your rose colored telescope off my bridge

    troll

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com alienboy

    troll mate, you’re the one with the prejudices and Anthony not-ASS was making the claims so you can take your presumptious arrogance off my bridge.

    If you want to make a useful contribution to this part of the convo, try and come up with some evidence to support AG’s assertion…

  • troll

    Alien – as you note…I have made no claims about the Palestinians – I’ve only questioned yours

    as for your personal attack (wink) – presumptuous arrogance is what I do (here I’m tempted to add ‘especially in the face of [self-edited]’)…sorry if that tweaks you so

    troll

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Troll, unlike you, I actually KNOW people who live in Palestine and neighboring Arab countries. I spent my early years there and we have family friends who remain there. So I’m not speaking out of conjecture, but out of first hand knowledge. I know one family which became quite successful under Israeli rule with a family business which catered to Israelis and Arabs. They are respectable, prosperous citizens, yet every day they have to endure the humiliation of checkpoints and random searches and being treated like second-class citizens. Their willingness to put up with this and still carry on amazes me. A lot of people like them – the best and the brightest of the Arab world – find ways to emigrate.

    As for moderate palestinian voices, I direct you to The Palestinian National Congresss which despite the name is not their actual congress, but a group which promotes peaceful coexistence with Israel. Take a look at their statement of principles and the photo gallery on the Entifada and you’ll be as amazed as I am that they can speak so rationally after what they are subjected to on a daily basis.

    Dave

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Sorry, that’s the Palestinian American Congress, not the Palestinian National Congress.

    Dave

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com alienboy

    troll, your arrogance doesn’t “tweak” me at all, it just undermines your already thin credibility; any fool can do arrogance, and in your case, you are a great fool.

    troll = lol

  • troll

    this is all I’ve been asking for

    thanks

    troll

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    This is to answer comments #69 and #70 and other comments like them.

    If you take the trouble to go to http://www.imra.org.il, you will find Independent Media Research and Analysis (IMRA), run by Dr. Aaron Lerner. He posts about 15 to 20 articles a day about Israel and the neighbourhood. He posts from a point of view that I generally track with. He has posts that go back at least five years. Often he takes articles from Haaretz, notes discrepancies in the Hebrew and English websites of papers,

    Do a search at this site and you’ll find quite a number of polls of Arab residents in the Land of Israel, taken by “Palestinian” pollsters. They will generally bear out my assertions that Arabs support terror attacks against Israel.

    By the way, I never said that all the Arabs want to kill us. What I did say was “People marching in the streets of Arab towns calling for our slaughter are not peace partners – they are enemies who want to kill us.”

    Given that you do not live in this country, you can afford to delude yourselves about the intent of the local Arabs. I can’t. Bethlehem is a fifteen minute drive away from here (Armon haNetziv, Jeruslem). Were it not for the terrible traffic jams, Ramallah would be a half hour drive. I suppose on a Shabbat morning it would take a half hour. At the one point in Jerusalem where there is a lot of Arab traffic intersecting with Jewish traffic, where Highway 60 goes through French Hill, there have been four terrorist shooting attacks with at least 15 casualties. I’ve done patrol duty quite a number of times there while folks hitch-hike rides to towns like Shilo, Kokhav Ya’akov, Ofra, P’sagot.

    Let me try and give you a more accurate picture, so you can understand more clearly what I say.

    I live in a neighbourhood surrounded by three Arab villages. The residents of these villages carry blue ID cards, like I do, and those ID cards are written in Hebrew, as is mine. Economically, they are most closely linked to the State of Israel, though they do not consider themselves Israeli Arabs. While these Arabs can come and go freely into Armon haNetziv, or almost any other neighbourhood, no Jews will venture into Jebel Mukabr of Sur Bakhr.

    Those carrying green ID cards (from a couple of villages away or from Bethlehem or Beit Jallah) carry ID issued by the Palestinian Authority and they are all in Arabic. The vast majority of these people have Jordanian passports, even if they are not Jordanian citizens.

    Do these people like us? Are they willing to live in peace with us? Well, they work with us, shop with us and ride the bus with us, but the potential for violence lies immediately below the surface all the time.

    One time, I was waiting for a bus going home from downtown. There were about 12 of us, including two Arab women who had bags that indicated that indicated they had gone clothes shopping. Someone picking up a news alert from his cellphone mentioned that there had been a terrorist attack – I don’t remember where, but there had been a number of deaths. The two Arab women who had been busy discussing something in Arabic stopped, also listening to the fellow explaining things to us in Hebrew. They pulled back away fom us with smiles broad on their faces.

    Nobody attacked them or said anything to them, but there were some nasty remarks in Hebrew about their smiling faces.

    The day after Rantisi was killed by an Israeli missile, a lot of Arabs didn’t come to work. Those who did had very angry and sullen faces. Israelis generally said “thank G-d” to each other or “finally,” but left the Arabs alone.

    Another time, in my own neighbourhood, some kids set up a table in a ccommons to sell orange strips of cloth indicating sentiment against the expulsioon of Jews from Gush Katif. A number of Arabs gathered near their table, very visibly upset. Someone had called the police. One cop stood talking into his police radio describing the scene while the seconds one just stood nearby. There was no violence, but there easily could have been.

    In short, there is no love lost between us. These are just anecdotes – they are not meant to replace statistics – but they indicate clearly the truth of the statistics gathered by “Palestinian” researchers that show broad support for vioklence and terrorism among the resident Arabs.

    Now comes the nasty question. Would I want to kill these people? No, not really. But the Arabs in Gaza who celibrate the death of Jews in terror attacks? I’d have no trouble dropping daisy bombs on them as they danced and celebrated. That is because they would be happy to do the same to me if they had the chance. Would I do this merely because they were celebrating? No. The reason I’d do this is to get across the point that losing your wife or child is not fun.

    There is no need for terrorist attacks against us. But so long as there are, there will be a need to convince those who perpetrate them and those who support them that losing relatives is not fun.

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com alienboy

    Ruvy, interesting and informative though these anecdotes are, they do not support Anthony Grande’s statement that “the goal of the Palestinians is to wipe out the Israel and the Jews” back in Comment #26.

    I was kind of under the impression, though feel free to correct me if I am mistaken, that Israel had the greater firepower and Palestine the greater bodycount. If so, this continual attempt to play the role of the underdog is a little disturbing, to say the least.

  • troll

    Please see this small pdf re Palestinian opinion as of June 04

    thanks for the links Dave and Ruvy…interesting stuff

    troll

  • troll

    Here’s another more recent (Sept. 05)survey which seems to show a trend toward accepting a two state solution…unfortunately it also shows that violence is considered an important legitimate tactic

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Alienboy, do check out the postings at Dr. Lerner’s site. They give far clearer data than my anecdotal evidence can – not of “all Arabs wanting to kill us Jews” – but of fundamentally solid support for violence commited by groups who want to destroy Israel. This is essentially – but not precisely – what Dave Nalle pointed out at comment #32.

    In 2000, when the Arabs first started their attacks, Israel was the heavyweight in firepower and the Arabs essentially had the bodies. The Arab rioting should have been suppressed within a week of it starting. By Yom Kippur of 5761, the Arabs should have been licking their wounds in fear and the IDF should have been lording it over them. If Israel had used its superior military force to crush this rebellion, as everyone was expecting, there would have been no issue of terror over the past five years. Your colleague Dave Nalle would be solidly in the Arab camp now because it would appear to him that Israel was grinding the Arabs’ noses in the dirt of total humiliation. And we would have been.

    THE ISRAELIS DIDN’T USE THEIR SUPERIOR POWER TO CRUSH ANYTHING. THAT’S THE PROBLEM.

    First of all, we – who pay high taxes and go to the reserves and sacrifice a good deal for a good army – have been cheated of its benefits.

    Second of all, you, who are used to seeing the powerful Israeli military collussus in action, assume that is what is happening when it isn’t. So you draw the conclusion that we are evil beasts browbeating these poor oppressed people who have only rocks to throw at tanks.

    Our IDF has been hamstrung by the political echelon – our phrase to refer to the prime minister and his flunkies – and either they have been hamstrung by the US and EU, or they are actively going along with this campaign to weaken our people and break our spirit.

    It is a pathetic sight when the only thing a Jewish army can point to with pride as something accomplished well is the expulsion of Jews from their homes. That is what has happened to the IDF that drove the Arabs out of Sinai, liberated Jerusalem and kicked the Syrians out of their Russian built bunkers in the Heights of Golan.

    We still have the firepower we had in 2000 – although the Arabs have significantly improved theirs over the past five years and now hav the capability of bombarding Ashkelon from Gaza and Tel Aviv from Samaria – but it doesn’t matter how big your gun is if you haven’t the cojones to pull the trigger. Or in this case, the cojones to allow those holding the guns to use them properly.

    It’s a case of cognitive dissonance, my boy. Here’s the big tough Jew with his big tough weapons donated by the generous American taxpayer – and he’s not using them. Something is wrong with the picture. The Arabs tell you that the big tough Jew really is using them – in fact he’s committing genocide just like a Nazi and it makes the picture look alright again – even though it is a lie.

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    The major goal ever the majority of Palestinians is to wipe out the Jewish race and religion from the Middle East and retake Israel.

    Ruvy, if this statement has inaccuracies or is wrong feel free and tell me (you live there and I do not).

    My Methodist Grandparents have made several pilgrimages to the Land of Israel. They talked to and befreinded many Palestinians who claim and talked about the horrors that the Israelis did when they took over. They called for a death to the Israelis.

    My liberal Grandparents are now anti-Semitic and actually believe that the Palestinians should have the land and the Israelis should leave. They were convinced by the Palestinians that they talked to and befreinded.

    Alienboy, Dave is not supporting you. You are desperate for allies.

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com alienboy

    Ruvy, it only seems natural to me that when the existence of the Palestinians is so fragile that they should support groups that seek to protect them.

    I repeat my example of the IRA, which had a lot of support for its military campaign against the British and did some horrific bombings against innocent civilians. Now, poof, as if by magic, they are disarmed and disappearing, leaving only a republican political party in its wake. You clearly still need some time.

    Anthony, it is truly sad to see a young brain so rigidly trapped in the warped moebius strip of prejudice and assumption that passes for thought in you.

  • http://www.theamericanright.com/ Anthony Grande

    Prejudice???

    Please do not say this again. It is fine to call me anything else but Prejudice.

    And where do you get off saying this???

    Where in my comments have a shown a sign of being prejudice???

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Interesting polls, troll. I notice that support for violence is much higher among the younger Palestinians than in the older geneerations. I suspect that Israeli policy has generated a lot of this resentment.

    Of course supporting someone else doing violence or outright warfare or even someone else suicide bombing isn’t the same as being willing to take up arms and kill some Israelis yourself. Palestinians clearly see violence as a tool used by their leaders to pressure Israel and the international community. That doesn’t mean they want to exterminate all Jews… that’s a pretty big reach.

    I also note that Palestinians aren’t exactly big fans of their own leadership. The impression I got from the various polls is that they’re just generally pissed off with the situation they’re living in.

    Dave

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com alienboy

    Anthony, you are prejudiced in that you will always stick to your position regardless of anything anybody says, that is what the word means. In contrast to biased, which is supporting one side if the evidence allows. Bias is generally seen as tolerable but prejudice is not.

    And if you read David Nalle’s post below yours, you will see that he is supporting my view that your claim was wrong.

  • http://www.theamericanright.com/ Anthony Grande

    Alienboy, I am sorry that none of your arguments have been strong enough to change my mind.

    Have you ever changed your mind here???

    And even if I have never changed my mind it doesn’t mean that I am prejudice.

    Dave was not supportion you. He was in fact contradicting me somewhat but his showed more support for my argument than he did for yours.

    You are alone on this thread me freind.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    Just for the record, I wasn’t specifically supporting or contradicting anyone. I was stating my own observations.

    Dave

  • http://www.nrlc.org/ Anthony Grande

    That was what I was trying to say, Dave. But the several spelling and typing mistakes in comment#88 probably mislead you.

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com alienboy

    Dave, just for the record, your words were supporting my argument that Anthony is talking rubbish in his claim about the Palestinians, and your efforts supported my argument whether you like it or not. Geez, what are you, Switzerland or something?

    And Anthony, the fact that the factual information Dave and I presented didn’t change your mind just goes to prove that you are, indeed, prejudiced.

    I form my opinions based on information, the evidence if you like; you set your mind in stone and then find whatever scraps of info you can to back up your false position. This is called intellectual dishonesty. From this impoverished position, everything you state is naturally massively discounted.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    A couple of years ago I was in hospital recovering from a minor heart attack (actually no heart attack is minor – the medics got to our apartment and stopped it in situ, thank G-d).

    For a number of days my “room-mate” was an old Arab fellow who was a lot sicker than he wanted to let on (he had 400 blood sugar at morning fast and he was in the cardiology ward – that’s bad news). Let’s call him Muhammad. We got to talking, avoiding those subjects that would not improve our health. He owns a drug distribution business delivering medicines to various pharmacies in towns like Nablus, Ramallah, Kalkiliya, etc. He was proud how he built up this business. He was discussing how he had no children interested in taking over his business so that he could retire, concentrating on one son who was doing just fine in Amman, thank you. I gathered that this son was really the one whom he had hoped would step in his shoes.

    I know just how bad it has been for Arabs in Judea and Samaria. The IDF, hamstrung from destroying terror, is reduced to such activities as playing cop, attempting to ban Arabs from the roads, manning roadblocks in an attempt to stop suicide bombers from crossing into Jewish towns, etc. and none of this was good for a business that depended on open roads to survive.

    It dawned on me that in Amman, Muhammad’s son had to endure no humiliating and time wasting Israeli roadblocks, pay no bribes to thugs from the PA, not have his wife harassed by Tunisian exiles (the guys who returned with Arafat in 1994) who wanted to have their way with a pretty woman, deal with violence, etc., etc. He had to keep his nose clean in Amman lest the king’s boys get after him – Jordan is not a democracy – but life was good. And it was peaceful. Why should he come home to manage a business in a war zone run by criminals?

    I was working as a business consultant at the time. After complimenting him extensively for having built up his business, I told Muhammad I thought it his best option to sell it. The reasons were two fold. One was that he should sell from a position of not having to make a sacrifice sale – and reap far less money, and two was that he would have ready cash to deal with health problems in case he felt he wanted to go elsewhere for medical treatment (he had mentioned how he had consulted all over the Arab world before coming to the hospital we were in).

    What is the point of this story?

    The fragility of Arab life in Judea and Samaria has largely been caused by our response to the terror perpetrated by the PA AND the wholesale theft by the PA of funds supposedly for the good governance of the Arab districts in Judea and Samaria. You can’t make a decent living there at all. Period.

    IF THERE WERE NO ARAB TERROR, THERE WOULD BE NO ISRAELI RESPONSE TO THE TERROR.

    So, if there was no terror, there would be no roadblocks, no raids, no targeted assassinations. There would have been no tourism depression and there would have been lots of work and plenty money to go round. Arabs would not be raiding the garbage dumpsters of Armon haNetziv as they do now. If the money given by the EU for the development of the Arab districts of Judea and Samaria had been used for that purpose, life would be tolerable at the very least and the pressure on Jews to leave towns that prevented a totally contiguous Arab territory in the former Jordanian provinces of Nablus, Jerusalem and Hebron would have been immense, to put it mildly. Would there be an Arab state there now? I don’t know. I suspect that there would be something very close to a completely independent state now.

    But to get back to the old fellow with the drug distribution chain, Muhammad’s son probably would have been willing to come home to manage his dad’s business in a relatively prosperous and peaceful land.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Anthony, I’ve avoided answering your posts because I wanted to get clear to the list in this conversation that while I do believe that the US is an enemy of this nation, and I do believe that the Arabs would like very much for us to disappear and are doing what they can to accomplish that goal, this path of terror and enmity need not have been the path taken. There could have been peace and a peaceful modus vivendi. Would it have been satisfactory to everybody? No.

    But peace was not the goal of the Arabs returning from Tunis with Arafat in 1994. Their goal was victory. And they didn’t care what tactics they had to use to accomplish it either. Arafat’s handshake in Washingon was a declaration of war.

    Arafat the terrorist was transformed into – Arafat the rich terrorist. His ‘Authority’ was and remains a tool for the murder of the Jewish people, in order to ‘liberate’ the land from us. My assertions are not based on bigotry – they are based on the clearest intent of the textbooks used by the PA to inculcate hatred into the Arab children of Judea and Samaria. They are based on the steady diet of hatred fed the viewers of PATV. It doesn’t matter what the Arabs tell the western journalists or Methodist pilgrims like your grandparents – it matters what they tell each other. That message of hatred and death has been documented over and over again by Palestine Media Watch and MEMRI. Don’t believe me. Google them up and see for yourself

    The goal of the PLO – founded in 1964 – before Israel liberated Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria and the Golan – was the destruction of Israel. This has not changed.

    Had the IDF firmly crushed the Arab rebellion in 2000, it would not be necessary to contemplate more extreme measures now. If the government we elected to crush Arab terror had done its job in 2001, it would not be necessary to contemplate getting rid of it now.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    And if you exterminated all of the Palestinians in death camps there wouldn’t be a problem either, Ruvy.

    I agree that the PLO is a big part of the problem, though, IMO it does little good for the Palestinian people who would be far better served by a moderate political leadership that would negotiate in good faith and attract international support from reasonable nations to back its goals.

    dave

  • Anthony Grande

    Alienboy, you are being childish.

    “Dave, just for the record, your words were supporting my argument that Anthony is talking rubbish in his claim about the Palestinians,”

    Here is Dave’s statement:

    “Yes, some of them are very anti-Israeli, but the situation has made them that way. I also doubt that about 99% of them wouldn’t bat an eye if a plague killed all the Israelis instantly. But most of them aren’t actively trying to exterminate all Israelis.”

    Now this is not against or for anyone. He supports my claim to a sertain extent and totally denies yours.

    How was he saying that my claims were rubbish.

    And Alienboy, you are prejudice because you haven’t listened to anything me, Dave, Ruvy or Troll has said to you.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem

    Dave, it seems that you agree with me that the PLO and its sister organizations will do the Arabs no good, but you seem to expect me to want to be a fellow running death camps for Arabs in this country.

    No, thank you. Such things are not necessary. The solution is simple. The Arabs in this nation have to either give up their hostility – or leave. The last moderate Arab leader to honestly want a modus vivendi with us was murdered 52 or 53 years ago on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. HIS father had signed an agreement with Jews to develop a Jewish homeland so long as there was an independent Arab state (what is now Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Saudi Arabia).

    The Arab enemy is, whether you realize it or not, the Wahhabi sect of Nejd which stole Mecca and Medina from the Hashemite family using money to buy arms, horses and camels – money gotten from the Union Bank where Prescott Bush was a bank officer. Blood is thicker than water, a fact that American life tends to hide. George HW Bush and his son are nothing more than head-waiters for the family of ibn Saud that their father and grandfather respectively helped propel into power.

    The Muslim Brotherhood, which originated in Egypt and had branches in Iraq and elsewhere in the Arab world, was closely tied to the Wahhabis, mosques and madrassas all over the world, the Arab Studies Faculties at universities world wide, are all paid for by Wahhabi money.

    Your enemy – the one that blew to bits the World Trade Centre four years ago on my 50th birthday – comes from Riyadh. If they must be in the middle east at all, that is where your soldiers should be right now, not Baghdad.

    The money wasted on the PA, a bunch of thugs that make the Mafia look like a true liberation movement, should be spent resettling Arabs from Judea and Samaria and Gaza in the Kingdom of Jordan – an artificial entity that could realistically become the Kingdom of Palestine.

    But it won’t happen, Dave. Your leaders are beholden to the thugdom of the Saud family, and our leaders are lap dogs of your leaders.

    So the solution will have to be the removal of our own leaders by true Jewish patriots, and then the systematic establishment of a true Jewish State.

  • http://www.elitistpig.com Dave Nalle

    For a Jewish state to exist relatively unchallenged something has to be done about the Palestinians – who as a whiole are perfectly okay people who have just been put in an untenable situation by their leaders and other Arab nations. They’ve got to be given someplace to live, and frankly they’re more likely to get decent treatment from the Jews than from any of their other neighbors. If Israel could make a definitive legislative policy statement to give certain specific areas to the Palestinians with total autonomy and then follow through on it, then they’d take a lot of the wind out of the sails of the Wahabis and the PLO and other troublesome groups.

    As for the Bush/Saud connection, it may be real, but I’m not convinced it’s as solid or absolute as you suggest. The Bushes have a LOT of friends, so do the Sauds. That doesn’t mean they place their friendships above their own personal advantage.

    Dave

  • troll

    Chris/Alien – have you modified your stance taken in this thread in light of the election of Hamas – ?

    just curious

    troll

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com/ Christopher Rose

    no

  • troll

    Chris – did the Hamas victory suprise you – ?

    troll

  • http://alienboysworld.blogspot.com/ Christopher Rose

    no

  • Khurram Khan

    I have been reading what all is written up there . I am from Pakistan and i read that ministers from Israel and Pakistan met in Turkey . I as observer to what you think and as a citizen to a state where people think differently about all aspacts can put a light on some of the lines. First of all Turkey is ot at all graded a imp state to Paskistanis . The present rule in Pakistan is an Army rule and it has no roots so far in the country so is it justified that act of a military ruler be taken seriously?
    Pakistan is a state which i strongly believe was made by very due concern and efforts of the Ruling Jews in British India (prely my own openion) . Today Pakistan fights terrorism and fights against very same people who at time of Russian invasion were funded ,helped, guarded by the west . If common europeons dont know that ..Pksitanis common people know that. The designs of states are well exposed to nations like Israelis, Arabs and Pakistanis.
    Now coming to Presedent of Iran . If i say about ther statements he gives is He helping His people or bringing what is not desired . Are His people really with Him.But one thing is sure he is the main buffer between Arabs and Israelis. His long tenure and ideas will favour Israel in long term. If arabs go for a fight against Israel …who knows Iran joins hand serectly with Israel…. history has seen Persians doing this.
    I read up there what USA is giving to Israel . No doubt it gives so much to Israel and Egypt ..even to Pakistan …but who is forcing USA to do that . The common people of USA needs more help then the people of o/m states.
    Iran motives about NUKES…sure that is a great threat to area…its not hard at all to read Iranians history and their motives.
    Arabs and Israelis have seen very less blood shed in their lands….the rest of the world has seen it so much…so much ..in shape of wold wars and more….are we ready again to do same..if yes…then have we leart any thing?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Hi Chris – “Alienboy”!. Here we are 4½ years later, and a war and a half later. And I’ve been proven right about the intent of the “Palestinians” to wipe us off the map – and you’ve been proven wrong. As my Geordie friend would tell me after synagogue, “Have a pinch of snuff, my boy. Can’t hurt you none!”

    Not only that, but the Turks (where all this hopeful stuff was supposed to have taken place) have ditched Israel as an “ally” and decided to make nice with the military dictatorship in Iran. Of course that’s the civilian régime, as stinky as kashkeval cheese. I wonder how many Turkish generals are nervously awaiting their opportunity to toss out this cheesy incompetent Islamist idiot in Ankara and restore Kemalist rule there? What ya think, my virtual friend? A ha’penny for your thoughts….

  • http://www.EurocriticsMagazine.com Christopher Rose

    Ruvy, I have no idea what prompted you to revive this conversation after all this time, particularly when you appear to have learned nothing about reasoning, logic or facts and a whole lot more about blowing hard but saying little.

    How exactly have you been proven right about the intent of some Palestinians and how have I been proven wrong about anything?

    The Palestinians have as much chance of wiping Israel off the map as Israel has of surviving without Western support, regardless of how unwilling either they or you are to accept these facts…

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I was really asking you about the reversal of the Turks in their political stance, and whether any rumours of a coup attempt in Ankara has reached you out on Wight Island, which, while not closer to Israel, might get some more noises since the Turks decided to join their Persian friends in a Middle Eastern love-fest.

    That you ask the questions you do above, and make the assertions you do, though, after all this time, and after all that has happened, proves the futility of asking you.

    The reason I “revived” this thread was partly out of realizing that I had explained myself rather well before even writing one article here at BC.

    I have to admit that I feel a bit sorry for you. Every time you read what I write, all you are probably thinking is “I’ve seen all this before.”

    Have a good ‘un, Chris.