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Thank God for Radical Islam!

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I know this is wrong on so many levels I cannot even begin to count them, but yes, as a Post Post-Modern Baby Boomer American philosopher fed up with the lisping, sighing prattle of delicate liberals and equally nauseated by the strident delusions of hell-fire Buchananites and his perpetually pissed off puritanical brethren all waiting to gloat when the rapture comes, I am oddly glad we are being forced to awaken from our cushy American delusions.

Screw the rapture and screw the abortionists. This is tectonic. Fantasies about Wal-Mart, the glass ceiling, flat tax, and gay pride are not really much of a problem when you take a slightly broader view. Radical Islam has been pounding at the door for a while and we all really should have awakened from our dogmatic slumbers.

Ladies and Gentlemen, Disney Land and Harvard will now be closing. Please return to the starry heavens above and the moral law within. This is the time for authentic philosophers and theologians to put down their otiose academic games and take gainful employment saving Western rights-based democracies. Liberals and Conservatives need not apply; you can keep on dreaming of social workers and heaven.

Yes, the radical Islamists really do want to kill us, and the moderate Muslims, much like the Catholics, think our consumer culture is perverse which is why neither opposes too forcefully the violent Islamists, so long as they only blow up the icons, residents, and proselytizers of the Protestant consumer cultures of America and Europe.

All our fulsome hand wringing and progressive sensibilities will not help us a jot until we actually decide who we are, morally that is. Yes, the big armies of the centuries have finally come out again; it’s the Imams vs. the Popes. The Muslims and the Catholics, who together speak for nearly four billion people (more people than ten USA’s), are now getting ready to go head-to-head again. This time it is not at all about terrorists killing consumerists.

The Muslims, it seems, have also been killing Catholics as Catholics. These guys each know exactly who they are. They each really have moral clarity and have had moral clarity for around one-thousand five-hundred years. We spoiled puritanical Americans are merely their arrogant children; we are the small fry in the big one that is coming. After all, there is not much a few smart bombs or other fancy military toys can do to change the minds of the waves of billions and billions people who are intent on overthrowing Western Culture as their protesting children have recently conceived it.

We Americans may have the best guns in the battle, but they have the divisions that count. The blunt reality is we really are not the dominant world power we imagine ourselves to be. Their divisions are fully composed of self-guided smart bombs, billions of humans guided by God in heaven above and crystal clear morality within. Our little bombs are only guided by littler satellites and our nukes have no clear targets. All we really have is Madonna, Fifty Cent, and Viacom.

So yes, this certainly is a world war. Do not delude yourself for even a second. This is a world war like no other. This world war is the “World Moral War,” the war for moral clarity on earth. The Pope’s divisions beat the communist military handily, but it is not so clear they will beat the Muslim divisions so easily. The side with the toughest morality will win this war.

We in the land of complaining Protestants, Busch Gardens, and imminent rapture have not got much of a horse in this race, yet. As a consequence, I fear that unless America is willing to define the moral core of liberal democracies, we whiners of the Mayflower will be entering a time that will be known as the twilight of liberal democracies.

Hume is speaking my fellow philosophers. Muttering in your academic beds and prostrating yourselves for professorship will only leave your children dead. Philosophy is again relevant; the question is whether we philosophers are up to our duty to define a moral order of liberal democracy that can protect us in the moral wars ahead. Be sure, the frame of “warfare” is infinitely more apt than the politically correct frame of “nurturing families” sticky with cotton candy at the amusement park. There is no cotton candy in Mogadishu.

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About carmine

  • fnds .. everythimg thats discussed above os not in good spirit ..
    u cant blame all the muslisms .. for allthis whats happening .. somewhere all are mislead ..
    perha[s .. the redical islamists are the misguided missiles .. actually they dont kniow what they are doing .. so what i feel that Islam should not be blamed for tht …. read the islam yourself .. u will that … It never spreads hatered ,blood ?????????. actually it tells some of the best things … no
    no dobut that it is bit more consevative .relating to the present scenario …… what we need at this moment …………

  • carmine

    Oiy, Sid,
    Your response makes you just another mystic, and that dear soul is why the Suffi Muslims are so willing to die… it’s a MYSTERY, just like all the pre-Aristotelian Catholics… it’s a MYSTERY… just like the ecofeminists and other diminished neo-romantics… it’s a MYSTERY, just like the Kabbalist Jews and the neo-Platonists and the Gnostics and every other death worshipping religion… it’s a MYSTERY. How about the simple life-embracing morality of contemporary Catholicism. That ain’t no mystery at all. It just takes moral courage to use the gift we have all received: LOGOS!

  • I got a message in my email asking me to respond. I am very glad that some, if not all of you good Christians and good Muslims and let me add, if I may, good Agnostics, Animists and garden variety of Aethists. Hindu religion is not only the best in the whole wide world, as of today, this very good day, of all the days, February 14th day, it was alway the good religion for those who chose it.
    I talked about the Hindu religious beliefs and practices in ancient times, kids, not the current times. Hindu religion, as against Christian religion and Judaism, not to forget our greatest of religion, Muslim religion are not evolving like current version of Hindu religion. They are not as good and never ever were any better religions in comparison only, because they stopped at their Religion 101, version. Whereas, Hindu religion sprouts like wild plants, weeds, in fact, bringing newer and better looking and better feeling versions every single day of the every single year. This evolving thingy is what makes it the most loved, the most satisfactory, the most easy to follow religion. I am the greatest living fan of the personal version of Hinduism. Very personal and very private edition. Good for me. I criticize the other 83,000,000,999 Hindus who do not get this ‘collector’s edition’ in their mail box. They think that the older version, the 101 version is the only version allowed. They believe, however wrong they may be, that the older version had fewer faults and the new, modern, vigorous version, the one I use, is not even a religion. Wrong. very, very wrong. If my version works wonders for me, I believe, their silly little version, the basic version, if it works as good as mine, may be the right version for them, not for me. Personal god, is what Hindu religion is all about. My god, may his soul rest in peace in Hindu heaven, is so private and so very personal, that “she” may never appear to anyone except me. Like, my car key, very personal and private “Lambourghni car” key, works for me and for none others. Even for my driver, as it recognises my thumb and index finger, very unique identification of the true owner, indeed. Does that mean that by saying my private “Lambourghni key” should be made into a “standard key” allpurpose key for all the cars in the world, including one’s cheap Yogoslavian “Yugo?” “There you go again, Sid! You are incorrigible,” says my personal god, telepathecally transmitted voice booms in my head. Thank Hindu personal god for small favors…and I am Sid Harth

  • Hindu

    I am still waiting to hear from Sid.

  • Ruvy,
    “Until it fell into the hands of the multiculturalists and PC freaks twenty-five years ago, America’s culture was top-notch.”

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem


    I was born and lived in America for many years before deciding to come home. The subjects I specialized in studying were history, political science, linguistics and public administration.

    The concepts that founded America were sound and excellent ones. Unfortunately, Americans, for various reasons have moved away from many of them. The few concepts that would make life better for Americans from outside the country, like socialized medicine, are concepts they firmly resist, acting as though it was a Communist conspiracy. Until it fell into the hands of the multiculturalists and PC freaks twenty-five years ago, America’s culture was top-notch.

  • Nancy

    Ruvy, I know *who* you are, i.e. an ex-American. I was more commenting for Hindu & whoever else might be out there.

    If we can just ‘clean house’ … but that won’t be, because the government is ruled by the very corporations that most push consumerism & all the trash everyone hates, pandering to the lowest common level. It galls & grieves me that we should be presented by the MSM, & perceived by the rest of the world, as a nation of pimps, panderers, & prostitutes, when 99.99% of us are not. It’s the same as judging all muslims by Osama bin Laden.

  • Hindu

    And I disagree with Carmine on this aspect. The US DOES have a great culture. Their tolerance and multiculturalism are sure signs of greatness.

  • Hindu

    Dear Ruvy,
    The Americans revitalized their spirit long ago when their countr was founded. Americans, in spite of having their roots in the old world are a new people, uninhibited and without the burdens and complexes of old races, and it is easy to see their abounding vitality. Their spectacular achievements in almost every field and their adoration of democractic and liberal principles are a proof enough for this. It is not the amout of oil a country possesses that decides the cultural greaness of the nation.

  • Hindu

    Nancy, If you live in an Islamic country, this website is banned. The URL is http://www.faithfreedom.org

    And Sid (may be Siddharth) is an anti-Hindu, possibly a Christian convert- not very hard to find these days, especially on the net where they can abuse Hinduism and India acc to their whim and fancy.

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem


    Think of Siddhartha as a fallen away Hindu. It’s the best analogy one can find…

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem


    Do remember that I lived in that sick culture for decades. I know the difference between the media bullshit and the truth.

    Jimmy Carter, the putz who is giving vent to his Jew hatred in his old age, did two decent things as president.

    1. He told Americans they were suffering from a malaise. He didn’t say it was a a malaise of the spirit – he should have.
    2. He tried to subsidize alternative energy. He was not able to go far enough in his efforts.

    Both relate to the condition your country finds itself in now. The unwillingness/inability to breask free from the lock that the Saudis have on America’s energy, and the determination of the Wahhabi – either in the form of the Saudi monarchy or of the various terrorist organizations it finances and spawns, or in its control and distortions of Islam: both of these things are bringing America down.

    Your nation will fall and falter. Its image as a purveyor of porn world-wide, the image of abuse of women, the image of a wastrel, all these will work a reworking of the world’s view of you country.

    And others will try to take its place as leaders of the world.

  • Nancy

    Hindu #51 – thanks for the link, but I couldn’t access it.

    Sid #52 – I didn’t understand your comment; it was garbled & virtually unintelligable to me. What was the point? Are you trying to say you’re anti-Hindu?

    Ruvy – thanks; cogent summation as usual. Carmine is right: the US DOES have a ‘sick’ culture – if you believe everything the MSM & Hollywood broadcast. Remember they sensationalize & cheapen everything they touch, because in their opinions, sensation, sex, violence & dirt are the only things that sell. It goes unnoticed that films like “Sense & Sensibility” or “March of the Penguins” do well, & people go in droves to see them. Nor are we all Desperate Housewives, slutty sex-crazed morons who dress like hookers, or like the women on Sex in the City, slutty sex-crazed morons who dress like hookers, etc. According to Hollywood & the so-called, self-styled “entertainment” industry, all women are sex crazed sluts who dress like hookers. Since, like everythng else, this is also a male-dominated industry, this is either their projected fantasies, or they hang out with some pretty sorry women in their lives, but in any case, they have no right to portray all US women like that. Same with men: all shown in movies, TV, etc. as gun-toting, violent snakes with fast cars, too much money, and no sense of ethics, morals, or anything else except self-gratification. Commercials are even worse. Anybody watching US TV can be forgiven for getting the impression all Americans are vile, greedy, materialistic, selfish, & spoiled. Meanwhile most of the MSM ignores the true American spirit, which comes out when our neighbors are in trouble, and we all rush to help. When the government or corrupt charities aren’t involved, most people in the US are about the most generous in the world. Ironically, the poorer they are, the more giving they tend to be, relative to their resources. You’ll see some poor old lady living hand to mouth give her widow’s mite that represents a week’s groceries for the tsunami victims, while a Dubya Bush or overpaid CEO tosses over a hundred dollars – which represents the proceeds of one nanosecond of their wealth, so that in essence it costs them nothing.

    Some drivelling idiot once wrote an article lauding the generosity of the Queen in making a certain donation which sounded most impressive – until someone else pointed out that it represented a negligible amount of her income, and that to be precisely as “generous” as Her Majesty, an average worker bringing home $30K a year would have to contribute approx. 14 cents-!

  • Ruvy in Jerusalem


    Most articles are explanations framed around a money shot or two. If there are too many money shots in an article only those with powerful intellects do not get blinded.

    I would suggest that Carmine’s big money shot is that all the minor fighting and skirmishing that seems to possess the Politics and Culture sections of the magazine are indeed minor and pathetically unimportant when posited against the force of a jihad determined to overturn western values.

    You seem to suggest, and I would tend to agree, that western civilization (and its “values”) has only consistently followed those parts of its alleged ethic that deal with self aggrandizement and enrichment. That explains more than adequately the sick culture of America.

    The value to this article is that Carmine has recognized clearly that this is a moral war, and a war about morals. There will be no deals on the table cutting out a compromise; it is the way of the Wahhabi or the death of the Wahhabi. It will be the victory of the Shia mahdi, or the proof that the Shia religion is nothing but a vicious and cruel fake that has enslaved Persia for 1400 years.

    I’ll reserve comments about Hinduism. I’m still enjoying my education in it in the comment section here.

    My only comment about Christianity is that one Jew nailed to a cross does not a messiah make.

  • Hindu


  • Hindu

    And another point in your article stands out.
    Indians DON”T HATE Americans and Britons. Don’t know how you concluded such a thing!

  • Hindu

    I knew at the very first instance that you were an an Indian- SIDDHARTH, not very difficult to make out. And I have met people far worse than you when it comes to Hinduism and India, and I mean it.
    But I think this is going tooo far. This is not a topic for critisising or defending India. please write another article and invite me over to comment.

  • My dear Apollonius,

    Thanks buddy.
    I have met people like you who at least read what I write. Obviously, you did not get fooled by my acidic and obviously insulting piece to the Hindus. I wrote thousands upon thousands of such insulting articles about Hindus, about their non-existing religion, about their Dead language, Sanskrit, about their warmongering, about their hatred of anything and everything Muslim, Christian, British, American, need I stretch the list more?

    The internet newsgroups becam very convenient places for these Hindu reactionaries. It was not necessary to write under their own name taking full responsibility for their views, commentaries and expressions fof anger at the criticism of India, anything Indian and anything about their faulty political process, falty democracy, faulty government, faulty morality, faulty and full of falsehood history, faulty outlook towards peace and progress.

    They, my Hindu critics, lack the basic understanding as to why I write about India in such derogatory manner. I was born and brought up in India. I am a certified Hindu Brahmin person. I lived in India for half of my life. I am educated. My specific education may be in other field but that does not make me unsuitable to write a logical critiqe on India.

    Please be patient and understanding. You might like me even better after you allow me to break your back with strong whipping full of logic, authorative references, cross references, prominent writers’ similar or contray opinions quoted.

    I am very particular about that sort of things in my bad writibg. I never express my opinions just to get my Hindu detractors mad. I love them dearly, more if they be patient and understanding and not get personal and start cursing me as I insult their very idiocy.

    Sid the very honorable Harth

  • Hindu

    Sid, I will come back with more tomorrow. But ponder over these for now.

    “India was the mother of our race and Sanskrit the mother of Europe’s languages. She was the mother of our philosophy, mother through the Arabs, much of our mathematics, mother through Buddha, of the ideals embodied in Christianity, mother through village communities of self-government and democracy. Mother india is in many ways, the mother of us all.”
    – Will Durant

    “If there is one place on the face of this Earth where the dreams of living men have found a home from the very earliest days when Man began the dream of existence, it is India.”
    – Romain Rolland(French philosopher)

    “In India, I found a race of mortals living upon the earth, but not adhering to it. inhabiting cities, but not being fixed to them. possessing everything but being possessed by nothing.”
    – Appollonius Tyanaeus

  • Hindu

    “Hindu saga, known to their die-hard followers as “Mahabharata,” is nothing but ‘death and destruction.’ Hindu epic, ‘Ramayana,’ is nothing but ‘death and destruction.’ Ashoka the great,’peace loving Buddhist,’ before he adopted Buddhism and it spread Buddhist philosophy all over the world, was a known ‘destroyer,’ killing hordes of his enemies.”

    Have you read a page of Mahabharatha?!
    Here goes the pledge which should be taken by all hindu kings before their coronation:
    “May I be deprived of paradise and progeny if I ever opress you….”

    To the aryan invasion theory…. I have a few doubts here. The Rg Veda calls MOTHER India the pearl of the world. Who would praise the lands conquered by them like this? besides, the Aryans, it seems were agricultural people. Why then, did they not continue to live in those luxurious cities of Harappa and Mohen-jo-Daro? Atleast, they should’ve built some war memeorials over there. If they didn’t know how to do that, they should’ve DESTROYED the city. If they couldn’t do that either, they should have killed the inhabitants and lived there. But none of this happenned.

    Coming to Babri Masjid… We believe that it was the birthplace of Lord Ram. Hindus demolished the mosque and intended to build a temple there instead( The temple WAS there before mind you, before being destroyed by Babar.)The Crusades were fought on these very same grounds.

  • Wow!

    It took my breath away, for a minute, just a tiny-little, insignificant minute. You guys are great, the writer, nay, insinuator, of some sort, who exposed the underside of the hated Muslim religion and their warring attributes, as witnessed thru their patently destructive forays, amonst others, attacks on that land of milk and honey, apple-pie and freedom to all, democracy for all, peace among the nations, sort of Satanistic America, my country, if your kind souls would allow me the priviledge, did a fine job, in a sort of biased and idiotic ways. Thanks buddy..

    How can I say, in plain and simple to undestand terms,”Do not judge the book by its cover?”

    The testament, the proof positive behind your smart observation about Muslim malarchy, the happenings all over the world, is the acts of vandals, who neither worship nor believe in Islam, as understood, in the holy, “Qur-aan,” the book, taken as “The Book,” by all those peace loving and practicing true Muslims.

    The fag named, Hitler, never worshipped in any Church, Synagogue or Mosque. He was a tyrant, but professed Christianity, the Martin Luther variation, of course. He had to be the demon of the millennium, along-with his contemporaries like Stalin, Mussolini and later-on your Pol Pots, your Idi Amins and bunch of them rascals, rogues and Ruffians, not to forget, the south American dictators, who, in a second would destroy any and all opposition to their domains, the little countries over which they had full control, like any self-respecting dictator might have.

    What about their death and destruction acts? Or, can’t you see what is happening around all of us? death and destruction in the name of oil, in the name of power, in the name of jingoism of Hindus going on rampage and destroying creaky-old ‘Babri Mosque,’ in Ayodhya, India, causing series of counter-actions by fearful Muslims who thought,as one community, “if this dangerous precident, president of Babri destruction continues, their very peaceful lives may fall into ruins and initiated counter terror acts demolishing Bombay Stock Exchange and such wilder variety of counter-measures to assure the jingoistic Hindus that no actions on their part would be tolerated.

    India, herself, is a craddle of ‘death and destruction, sort of culture. As the former poets and current historians, including Aldous Huxley, the famous historian who wrote the history of the World noted.

    Hindu saga, known to their die-hard followers as “Mahabharata,” is nothing but ‘death and destruction.’ Hindu epic, ‘Ramayana,’ is nothing but ‘death and destruction.’ Ashoka the great,’peace loving Buddhist,’ before he adopted Buddhism and it spread Buddhist philosophy all over the world, was a known ‘destroyer,’ killing hordes of his enemies.

    Need ‘Ii state my point more simply, you bavards? Please read Hindu history, ancient ‘Aryan history.’ The native Mohen-jodaro culture was destroyed by bunch of killing machines, aka Aryan Invaders, marauding, white-skinned foreigners to mother India, to such an extent, perfect extent, that it took two thousand centuries before the glorious, indegent, Mohen-jo-Daro culture, was accidentally unearthed, researched by the hated British civil servants and the Railway engineers to make thejingoistic Hindu mongrel dogs go ga-ga over its supremacy.

    Talk about peace. You amonst all, crazy bunch, is how I see you gallivanting into the territory of wise, objective criticism, the one that I follow. I see the world and consider it as an ‘Oyster,’ complete, not in a fractioned, fictitious, frigging sort of way, like you-all. See what I see and then, if you are brave enough to debate with me, come all-prepared, for the battle of wits and wisdom, On my part, and ‘tom-foolery and bavardry on yours. Yours truly, truly a democratic, egalitarian, unbiased and frank commentator on these internet discussion forums, none other exists or known to me.

    Sid the brave Heart hart

  • Hindu


    Take a look at this website. You can see many such articles and also debates with muslim religious leaders.

  • Nancy

    Hindu #43: a tremendous & very enlightening discussion & history. Thank you! You confirm what some of us, christian or not, have known all along: islam & muslims are dangerous, violent, and fixated. It is not & never was a religion of “peace” – unless all its rivals were dead or enslaved – just like militant christianity. In either case, those of us who prefer to be left alone or tolerant, the secularists, are in big trouble, it seems.

  • Hindu

    Dear Darren,

    I do not say that Christianity is false. For all we know, it could be true. but I feel that when having a discussion in which religion is bound to play a major part, we should leave the door to the unknown open.

    I strongly feel that religious doctrines which say “This is the answer, my friends! Man is saved.” are extremely dangerous and can DOOM humanity forever. We should NEVER oppress discussion, close one’s mnd to everything he believes is false and blindly believe in a faith. WE SHOULDN’T FORGET THAT HUMANITY IS STILL IN IT’S INFANCY.

    I think that these drawbacks are not present in Hinduism. Indeed, some sects of HINDUISM ARE ATHEISTIC OR AGNOSTIC. There are doctrines in hinduism that deny the existance of god, whereas others strongly argue that God exists. This situation, I feel could’ve arisen only if Hinduism had left ‘the door to the unknown open’.

    And indeed, there is evidence hundreds of thousands of religious debates have taken place in India- this is the case with all the so called DHARMIC religions(Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism.. all religions,in short,that have originated in India.

    So,for me, Hinduism is not just a religion, but a culture and a civilistaion that has had a continuous existence of over 6000 years.

    Most of the Pagan practices can be traced back to India and Hinduism. The horned God, for example can be seen in the seals of the Harappan civilisation.

    I think you now see the stark contrasts between Hinduism and the Abrahamic religions. While the Bible opposes withcraft of all types,”Atharva Veda” deals mainly with magic.( All these magic stuff are made fun of Upanishads- again, an evidence that Hinduism has always been an evolving religion)

    But if paganism was such an evil thing, how could such great people like Gandhi have been Hindus? This is the primary reason why I reject all the Abrahamic religions.

    And as for Satan, Hinduism has no concept of an evil counterpart to God. Most of the sects tend to agree that IGNORANCE, HOPELESSNESS AND GREED AS THE SOURCE OF ALL EVIL. For a hindu, the whole world is pure and sacred.

    Lord Krsna says that He alone is the source of all human feelings and qualities- happiness, sadness, fear, anxiety, jubiliation, success, failure, freedom, optimism, pessimism- He is the source of everything.

    It is only when man is able to understand this universal truth and learns to detach himself from these feelings that plague the material world, he obtains the divine bliss and is TRULY saved. He cares for nothing, as he knows that everything that exists in the material world is an illusion. He is called a Brahma-Gnani, the one who knows everything.

  • Hindu

    Dear Darren,

    As far as I know, and I know quite a lot on this subject atleast, seeing that I live in India. I also found that your report of raping of nuns is false. I think I will be responding to many of your questions if you read this letter(written by Francois gautier):

    December 30, 2005

    Francois Gautier writes to Dr John Dayal, member, National Integration Council, in response to the letter he wrote Prime Minister Manmohan Singh:

    Dear John Dayal,

    I am a Westerner and a born Christian. I was mainly brought up in Catholic schools, my uncle Father Guy Gautier a gem of a man, was the parish head of the beautiful Saint Jean de Montmartre church in Paris. My father Jacques Gautier, a famous artist in France, and a truly good person if there ever was one, was a fervent Catholic all his life, went to church nearly every day and lived by his Christian values.

    There are certain concepts in Christianity I am proud of: Charity for others, the equality of social systems in many Western countries, Christ’s message of love and compassion.

    Yet, when I read your letter to Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh, apropos the inaugural meeting of the National Integration Council, I was a little uneasy.

    First, you seem to assume that you are speaking for the entire Christian community in India. But I know many Christians in this country, and they never voice the grievances you so loudly proclaim. In fact, I have found that most Christians in India are not only happy to live in this country of traditional tolerance, but that they are also different from many Christians in the world: More multicultural and ecumenist in spirit, maybe.

    Then, you speak of the marginalised Dalits. I agree that there are still unforgivable atrocities committed against Dalits, although very often they are done by backward castes themselves. I remember during the tsunami in Pondichery, how the Vanniars, an OBC caste, stopped the Dalits from a coastal hamlet from crossing the Vanniars’ part of the village to bury their dead, as the Dalits’ cremation ground had been submerged.

    At the same time, my 30 years in India have taught me that nowhere in the world has there been so much effort to rectify a wrong — from 1947 onwards. This resulted in a Dalit, the late K R Narayanan, born in a poor village of Kerala, to be elected President of India, one of the highest posts in this nation.

    Has a black man ever been President of the United States?

    Reservations for Dalits have made it possible for them to access education and jobs regardless of their merits — and this is a unique feature of India today.

    Francois Gautier who are the real Dalits of India?

    You continue by saying that ‘the agenda draftsmen of papers for NIC seem to believe that forcible and fraudulent conversions (to Christianity) are the main cause of civil unrest in tribal and other rural areas’. And you retort that ‘this is a malicious myth propagated by obscurantist and fundamentalist — and often violent — political groups’. Meaning Hindu groups, of course.

    I have to disagree with you on two points.

    One, I have seen with my own eyes how conversions in India are not only highly unethical — that is, using unethical means of conversion — but also that they threaten a whole way of life, erasing centuries of tradition, customs, wisdom, teaching people to despise their own religion and look Westwards to a culture which is alien to them, with disastrous results.

    Look at what happened to countries like Hawaii, or to the extraordinary Aztec culture in South America, after Portuguese and Spanish missionaries took over.

    Look how the biggest drug problems in India are found in the Northeast, or how Third World countries which have been totally Christianised have lost all moorings and bearing and are drifting away without nationalism and self-pride.

    Second, I think people like you show very little gratitude to that Hindu ethos which has seeped into Indian Christian consciousness. It is because of that Hindu ethos, which accepts that god may manifest himself at different times in different names, that Christians were welcomed in India in the first century. Indeed, the Syrian Christians of Kerala constituted the first Christian community in the world.

    It is because of this inbred tolerance in Hinduism that Christianity and many other persecuted minorities in the world flourished and practiced their religion in peace in India throughout the centuries.

    But how do Christians thank the Hindus? When the Jesuits arrived in India with Vasco de Gama, they committed terrible persecutions, particularly in Goa, crucifying Brahmins, marrying local girls forcibly to Portuguese soldiers, razing temples to build churches and splitting the Kerala Christian community in two.

    And today, people like you continue ranting against Hindus and promoting unethical conversions, using the massive power of the dollars donated by ignorant Westerners, who do not know that their money is used to lure innocent tribals and Dalits, who still possess that all encompassing acceptance of all gods, towards another religion.

    Furthermore, you use false statistics, saying for instance that nuns have been raped. You no doubt allude to the Jhabua rape case, when courts have shown that these nuns were not raped by Hindus, but by Christian tribals.

    I know, I went there and interviewed these innocent souls.

    And who has been hijacking of the educational system in India? Not the Hindus, as you accuse, but the Christians, who control much of the higher education in India and by subtle and not so subtle means, poison the minds of the students, teaching them to look down on their own culture and look up to whatever is Western — even if it has already failed in the West.

    In how many schools and hospitals in India today, the Bible is read at the beginning of each day, each session? Would you approve of the Bhagavad Gita, the Bible of 850 million Hindus being read in Christian schools in the West to Christian students and nurses?

    Finally, when you say: ‘God bless you, you Government, and God bless India’, which god are you talking about? Is it Jesus Christ? But the message of Christ was one of love, of respecting others’ cultures and creed — not of utilising unethical means for converting people.

    It is false to say that Jesus is the only ‘true’ god. As Hindus rightly believe, the Divine has manifested himself throughout the ages under different names and identities, whether it is Christ, Buddha, Krishna or Mohammad.

    Let this be the motto of the National Integration Council of India.

  • Manas Shaikh
    You are dangerously wrong. The real threat is any cult –whether it claims itself a religion or not– that pretends to have the un-assailble truth through the rejection of Logos. In other words, any cult that is no more than a pseudo religion no matter what great name it pretends. Literalism is weapon that killed God. Today’s Mullah-Lites are pale theological frauds compared to the authentic Islamist Theologians of the past. Catholicism, on the other hand has become theologically more sophisticated now than ever before. I vote the followers Catholicism will defeat the followers of the madrasses of hate, greed and downright stupidity. Paganism if theologically astute, in other words, Paganism that allows reason to flourish is a vastly superiour religion to any religion that rejects the one universal truth in the Bible: John 1:1. …and the Word (Logos) was God.

  • Islam and Christianity are brothers.

    Both believe in One God and the Last Day.

    The real threat, believe me, is paganism.

  • Darren

    Dear Hindu:

    In response to your post #41, see worldnetdaily.com and links contained therein.

    Also another great site to sign up for emails detailing persecution of Christians around the world, including persecution by Hindus in India, can be found at: persecution.com and prisoneralert.com

    All one has to do is keep up on the news in Google, for example, to readily see that Christians are being persecuted and/or jailed in countries like India, Iran, Turkey, and/or Indonesia to name a few for preaching the Gospel. In Islam in many countries, a Muslim who becomes a Christian does so under threat of death. Such conversion is considered an “insult” to the false “prophet” Muhammad.

    Granted Muslims are doing the most of the persecutions and they catch the headlines. In fact, many wonderful Hindu people have suffered from the evil attacks and persecutions by Muslims upon them.

    But persecution by Hindus in India against Christians still exist and takes place from time to time whether by actual violence or enactment of law which makes preaching the gospel difficult.

  • Darren

    Dear All & Hindu:

    I have been away and have not read all the posts, so first and foremost forgive me for not addressing every point made which may have been addressed to me.

    But one point did stand out when I got a copy of it via email notification.

    Hindu you did ask this very good question which was:

    “How did you conclude that Hinduism is false?”

    I concluded that Hindu was false along with every other religion under the sun to be false, but for one…Christianity. Christianity of the Bible (not to be confused with the tradition and doctrines of men who may be in “religious” organizations calling themselves “Christian”.

    I do believe the Bible to be the true Word of God. If one does not believe such, they are free to do so. One can not nor should not force religion and/or faith upon anyone. As the Apostle Paul once said, “Come let us REASON together”.

    But in the Bible JN 14:6 it states: “Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; NO ONE COMES to the Father, BUT THROUGH ME”.

    Jesus claims He is the ONLY way to the Father, i.e. God. Everyone must come to God through Jesus Christ who died for the sins of the world.

    Think about it…Christianity is both inclusive and exclusive. Jesus died for the WHOLE WORLD; yet to be a Christian one must accept Jesus Christ as the Son of God who is the living Savior.

    IF…and I say IF one could be saved or that there were other ways to God, then Jesus Christ is either a liar, a fool, or both.

    First Jesus says HE is the way. If not, then He is a liar.

    Secondly, if there were other ways then His suffering on the cross was the suffering of a fool. Jesus could have easily could have pointed out the various other ways and instructed the world to follow such various other ways instead of His willingly suffering a excrutiating death nailed to a Cross. Jesus did NOT have to die if there were OTHER ways to GOD.

    Let’s assume for sake of argument that Christianity is true and Jesus is not a liar nor a fool, then what would YOU do if you were Satan?

    What would YOU DO as Satan to keep people from this truth?

    Would you not first deny that God exists and call it “atheism”? But Satan being crafty would not put “his eggs all in one basket”. He was also create other false doctrines and relgions. Satan has also created the thought or belief system that ALL ways are acceptable ways to God the Father.

    Satan is out to confound and confuse. Satan will feed a person a lakefull of truth to get them to swallow a thimble full of lies.

    However, it is not within MY power to convince anyone of anything NOR would I EVER force anyone to believe as I do. This is my faith. This is my belief. Only God through His Holy Spirit has the ability to convict someone of their sin and point out to them that Jesus Christ is the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Him.

    Jesus Christ is either telling the truth and He is MORE than just a prophet, but the Son of God and the ONLY Savior to the world OR He is a liar, a fool, or both.

    I choose to believe Him. I neither believe He is a liar or a fool, but the Son of God and Savior to the world.

    If Christianity is true, then your eternity with or without God will not be what I say about Jesus, but whether or not YOU believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God and your Savior.

    As Jesus would say, “Do you believe”?

    That choice is YOURS and no one can make it for you and/or force you. God gave each of us a free will and He wants you to come to Him willingly for He LOVES YOU, died for you, and offers you the free gift of salvation. It is YOURS if you accept it.

    The choice is yours and yours alone.

  • Hindu

    I think every American should read this article(posted on http://www.faithfreedom.org)

    Islam Warriors Looking For Saladin
    This article, superbly explains why the fight against Islamic terrorism without taking into account Islam itself is futile. This message must be heard by all journalists and politicians. Please email the URL of this article to anyone you think should know it.

    Ali Sina

    By Ohmyrus
    September 11 came as a shock to Americans. It was like a blow from someone in the shadows – someone that they don’t know or understand. The Chinese Strategist Sun Wu who wrote the “Art of War” said: “Know thyself and know thy enemy. One hundred battles, one hundred victories.”

    Well-meaning people in the civilized world still argue what 911 was all about. Some argue that it is about poverty and lack of democracy in the Muslim world. Others say it is about Israel. These may be contributory factors. Yet the Chinese occupy Tibet for decades without provoking suicide bombers. The British occupied Gibraltar for centuries without triggering violence from Spaniards. There is poverty in Africa, Latin America and Asia. Yet these people don’t turn to terrorism and suicide attacks.

    There is more at work here than just poverty or US Middle East policies. Unfortunately, the politically correct crowd has not followed Sun Wu’s advice to “Know thy enemy”. They must be made to realize that September 11 was just another chapter of the history of jihad, which began nearly 14 centuries ago.

    It was Prophet Mohammed himself who led the first jihad against the infidels. At the crucial battle of Badr, the flame of jihad was kindled. It is a spirit that inspires extraordinary courage that is terrifying to the enemies of Islam.

    There are two kinds of jihad – the lower and the higher kind. The lower jihad is fought on the battlefield. The higher jihad is a struggle to improve oneself. But it is the lower jihad that one attains the prize of martyrdom. Militant Muslim scholars argue that it is the duty of Muslims to spread the religion by conversion if possible or by force of arms if military power comes to them.

    Ayatollah Khomeini said: “Islam makes it incumbent on all adult males, provided they are not disabled and incapacitated, to prepare themselves for the conquest of (other) countries that the writ of Islam is obeyed in every country in the world.”

    At the battle of Badr, the Muslims were outnumbered by the Meccans. The Prophet was worried and prayed fervently. Nine hundred well armed Meccans with seven hundred camels and a hundred horses faced three hundred Muslims.

    The Prophet said: “If the Muslims were defeated that day, Allah would never be worshipped again.”

    Then he fainted and when he opened his eyes, there was a smile on his lips. He had seen the angel Gabriel in a dream coming to help the Muslims. Then he told his men: “By God in whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, no man will be slain this day fighting against them with steadfast courage, advancing not retreating, but God will cause him to enter Paradise.”

    A soldier who heard these words flung away the dates he was eating and plunged into the enemy, fighting till he was killed. When the Prophet was asked what would make Allah joyous with his servant, he replied: “When he plunges into the midst of the enemy without mail.”

    At a critical moment in the battle of Badr, a dust storm blew, blinding the Meccans. The angels led by Gabriel galloped in to aid the Muslims. The Meccans lost and fled. The lesson from Badr is that a Muslim’s thoughts should focus on martyrdom and leave it to Allah to secure victory. In the long run, Allah would assure them victory. In the short run, they might suffer defeat. But death even in defeat only hastens their entry into paradise. So, either way they win. Strategy is important but reliance in Allah must take precedence over man made strategies. This is the spirit of jihad. This is the spirit that inspires the members of Al-Qaeda.

    This spirit is best summed up in a hadith from Sahih al Bukhari where the Prophet said: “Know that Paradise is under the shade of swords”. It is really an invitation to die for Allah.

    That is why Holy Warriors from the 7th century to the present day followers of Osama bin Laden are so dangerous. As I argued in my article, “Once were Warriors”, Islam was designed to facilitate Arab imperialism. It is a warrior’s religion and few ancient armies fighting with swords, bows and spears could defeat them as you will see when I continue my story.

    The Prophet’s jihad continued and the Muslims were defeated at the battle of Uhud. What happened was that a group of archers disobeyed orders to guard the rear, rushed forward to get their share of booty, thinking that victory was theirs. This allowed the Meccans to launch a cavalry charge into the opening and won the day.

    But Muslims found victory in defeat. The Muslims lost because of the sin of greed for gold. The Muslims learned the lesson that sin leads to defeat. Defeat on the battlefield thus led them to victory in the higher jihad – the inner struggle to purify oneself of sin. The Koran said in 3:139: “Lose not heart, nor fall into despair: for ye must gain mastery if ye are true in faith.”

    This spiritual renewal will pave their way to eventual victory. Verse 3:166 says: ” What ye suffered on the day the two armies met, was with the leave of Allah, in order that He might test the believers.”

    Thus with the example of Uhud before them, members of Al-Qaeda will not be deterred by defeat in Afghanistan. Instead, they will see it as a test of faith and a lesson from Allah to purify themselves from sin and to rededicate themselves to Allah’s cause.

    It was this faith that enabled the Muslims to conquer Arabia in the 7th century. At this point they were about to explode into history. In about 628, the Roman Emperor, Heraclius was in Jerusalem. It was there that he received a letter from Mohammed, asking him to become a Muslim. This was in fact an invitation to surrender to Allah and his Prophet. Failure to do so meant war. Mohammed also sent letters to the rulers of Persia, Abysinnia, Bahrain and Oman.

    Some things have not changed in 14 centuries. In a letter to America, purportedly written by Osama bin Laden published in the Observer on November 24th, the terrorist leader (or holy warrior depending on which side you are on) said:

    “As for the second question that you want an answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?
    (1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.”

    His confidence in eventual victory is shown from this verse from the Koran (61:9) that he quoted in the letter:
    “It is He who has sent his Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it victorious over all other religions even though the Polytheists hate it.”

    Towards the end of the letter, Osama said:
    “If the Americans refuse to listen to our advice and the goodness, guidance and righteousness that we call them to, then be aware that you will lose this crusade Bush began, just like the other Crusades in which you were humiliated by the hands of the Mujahideen, fleeing to your home in great silence and disgrace.”

    Now, let us get back to the 7th century. Mohammed died in 632 and Abu Bakr became the first Caliph (successor). He told the assembled Muslims:
    “Obey me as long as I obey God and His apostle, and if I disobey them you owe me no obedience.”

    These idealistic words opened the door to rebellion for future rulers of Muslim lands right up to this present day – making Muslims a prickly bunch of people for any ruler to handle. The need for compromise from unbending orthodoxy makes Muslim states vulnerable to charges of disobedience to God.

    The Economist (October 13, 2001) reported that an 80 year old cleric, Sheik Hamoud bin Ogla an-Shuaibi issued a fatwa against the ruling Saudi family. When summoned by the authorities to explain himself, he said:
    “Whoever backs the infidel against Muslims is considered an infidel.”

    This sentiment is common in Saudi Arabia and that is why Osama bin Laden is such a hero there. When the King invited the Americans to deal with Saddam Hussein after the invasion of Kuwait in 1990, bin Laden was furious.

    This is because the last injunction that the Prophet gave was: “Let not two religions be left on the Arabian Peninsula.”

    The Koran (5:51) also says: “Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number.”

    Clearly, it is against scripture to allow the infidel Americans to put their boots on sacred Arabian soil. Trying to explain that they need the military strength of the infidel United States to protect Saudi Arabia from the powerful Iraqi army do not impress men of faith.

    Did not Allah grant the impoverished mujahideen victory against the Soviet Union? What is Saddam Hussein compared to a superpower? It was clear to Osama and Sheik Hamoud that the House of Saud preferred to rely on the infidels rather than on Allah. Therefore, can they really be true believers? Osama got angrier when the Americans did not go home after Saddam was defeated.

    Jihad, according to moderate Muslims, is permissible only for self-defense. But what is considered as self-defense? To Muslims like Osama, having infidel troops on sacred Arabian soil is an offense to Islam and merits a jihad. The clause of self-defense opens a wide loop-hole for creative interpretation.

    Osama is of course not the first to declare jihad against “Christendom”. Under Umar, the second Caliph, Christendom lost Egypt, Palestine and Iraq. Byzantine armies weakened by years of warfare against the Persians were no match for the Arab warriors who could hide in the desert where the Romans could not go. The Christians were also weakened by division. The Emperor favored the Orthodox Church and the Nestorians, Monophysites and Copts resented this.

    Under Umar, the ancient Persian Empire was also partially conquered. After Umar came Uthman and later Ali (Mohammed’s son-in-law), the last of the Rashidun Caliphs. Ali did not last long and was murdered by one of his followers, a Kharajite, for compromising with Muawiya. Of the four “rightly guided” Caliphs, only Abu Bakr died a natural death. Muawiya was the son of Abu Sufyan, Mohammed’s old enemy before he converted to Islam (i.e. submitted to Allah and his Prophet).

    Muawiya became a great Caliph. When he died, the Umayyad empire stretched from the Maghreb to the Sind in India. Civil war started soon after he died. In the internecine warfare, Prophet Mohammed’s grandson, Husayn (Ali’s son) was killed by the forces of Yazid, the son of Muawiya at the battle of Karbala.

    His head was cut off and presented to Yazid and kicked around like a football. Such irreverence to the Prophet’s family make me wonder if Abu Sufyan and his family were true believers. More likely, Abu Sufyan (who lost two sons fighting Mohammed at Badr) converted to preserve his life. That is why the Koran and Hadiths recorded that there were many hypocrites who were constantly plotting against the Prophet.

    I suspect that Abu Sufyan’s family had a blood feud against Mohammed’s family in which they finally won. Even today, Bedouin families still wage blood feuds. Abu Sufyan and his family may not be true believers but hijacked the Islamic movement for their own purposes. This topic could be the subject of a speculative article on Islam’s early days. But I digress too much. Let’s get back to the history of jihad.

    Within fifty years of the death of the Prophet there were three rival Caliphs at each other’s throats. Abdal Malik (a son of Abu Sufyan’s nephew) emerged the victor and became a great Caliph. The empire grew larger than before and lasted till 750.

    During this time, another attempt was made to take Constantinople in 717. Muawiya had tried and failed because of lack of winter provisions. This new jihad against Christendom was led by Maslama, the brother of the Caliph, Suleyman. The Muslim force comprised of 180,000 Arabs and 1,800 ships. The Byzantines repulsed them with Greek fire and the energetic efforts of Emperor Leo. The Muslims retreated and Constantinople became the eastern gate that shut out the Muslim tide for another eight centuries till it fell to the Turks.

    Elsewhere, Muslim forces were more successful. Spain fell and the tide of jihad entered France. Charles Martel stopped them there at the battle of Poitiers. This was the western gate and Christendom was saved. If the Franks had been defeated, Gibbons said:

    “Perhaps the interpretation of the Koran would be taught in the schools of Oxford, and her pulpits demonstrate to a circumcised people the sanctity and truth of the revelation of Mahomed.”

    Decline set in eventually. The Umayyad Caliphs were irreligious and I suspect some of the Caliphs may not have been true believers. For example, Caliph Walid II stuck a Koran on his lance and shot arrows at it! He said to the Koran:

    “You hurl threats against the stubborn opponent. Well then, I am a stubborn opponent myself. When you appear before God at the day of resurrection just say: My lord, al-Walid has torn me up.”

    His court was full of debauchery. He surrounded himself with poets, dancing girls and musicians. The Umayyads have always been considered “godless” by their opponents and failed to satisfy the pious.

    According to noted Islamic historian, Rafiq Zakaria, “it was their betrayal of the concept of Islamic brotherhood, irrespective of race and language, that brought them down.”

    He is echoing a familiar theme among Muslim historians. Decline will always come when Muslims forget Allah’s commandments as had happened in Uhud. Renewal lies in a return to the first principles as taught by the Prophet. This theme will play again and again throughout the centuries right up to the present day. For the Muslim, history is a cycle of rise and fall and then renewal.

    In 750, a general, Abul Abbas invited 80 Umayyad nobles to his home for dinner and slaughtered them. This ended the Umayyad dynasty with the exception of Spain. Abbas established the Abbasid caliphate, which reached its peak at the time of Harun al Rashid. Then it too declined and the Caliph was reduced to being a figurehead. The empire was in reality divided up by rival groups.

    Now lets fast-forward to the Crusades. By the 11th century, Christendom was strong enough to mount a counterattack. In 1061, Count Roger invaded Muslim Sicily and Sicily returned to Christendom in 1091. In 1085, Frankish knights fought alongside Spaniards to recover Toledo. The re-conquest of Spain had begun. But Muslim power was still potent and made inroads against the tottering Byzantine Empire. The Byzantine Empire was defeated at Manzikert and never recovered.

    In 1095, Byzantine Emperor Alexius Comnenus I asked the Pope for help. In the same year, Pope Urban II launched the first Crusade to help the ailing empire and to recover the Holy Land, which was originally part of the Byzantine Empire.

    By 1099, the Crusaders captured Jerusalem and massacred Jews and Muslims. The loss of Sicily and the Holy Land was a humiliation for Muslims. The third most sacred city, Jerusalem with its Dome on the Rock was under infidel rule and Crusader states were established.

    But in 1187, Saladin declared jihad and recaptured Jerusalem after defeating the Christian army at Hattin. The defenders threatened to destroy Al Aqsa and the Dome on the Rock. A deal was struck. In exchange for ransom, the Christians could leave. Saladin kept his word and not a Christian was killed.

    To many modern Muslims, the Crusades are still fresh in their memories. The presence of Israel is a humiliation for them. To people like Osama bin Laden, Israel is a modern Crusader State supported by the USA. Muslims are waiting for a modern day Saladin to restore the Ummah to power and glory.

    They cannot understand why Allah seems to have deserted them. Muslims are amongst the poorest and least educated people in the world ruled mostly by tyrants who appear to be doing the bidding of the infidel Americans. To them, it should not be this way. Many Muslims still dream of their golden past when their green pennants fluttered proudly from Spain to India.

    What makes the humiliation worse is that the infidel west is corrupting the minds of Muslims with their ubiquitous alien culture. Many Muslim women are envious of the freedom that their occidental sisters enjoy, which brings shudders to the conservative. Western ideas about democracy are seductive and are a challenge to the Muslim model of the Islamic state where all laws are made not by man but by God as revealed through the Prophet.

    This lament for their low estate can be seen in a poem, called Shikwa, written by Iqbal, an ideologue of the Pakistan movement. The poem asks why Allah is unfaithful to Muslims when Muslims remain faithful to Him. A part of the poem says:

    “Your blessings are showered on homes of unbelievers, strangers all.
    Only on the poor Muslim, Your wrath like lightning falls.”

    To other Muslims, it must be because they have not been faithful enough to Allah. The solution is greater piety and sacrifices. To the members of Al-Qaeda, keeping faith with Allah means martyrdom. Greater devotion will lead to renewal of the Ummah as happened many times in Islamic history. That is why some see Osama bin Laden as the new Saladin coming to restore Muslims to their rightful place in the world. The sad truth is, as I argued in “How Islam failed Muslims”, that Islam retarded their progress.

    However, I would like to add that the Islamic world is by no means monolithic. No religion is. Not all Muslims will see things the way I described in this article. But many do. The danger is that political correctness may have blinded many westerners to the dangers. Such people like to insist that Islam means peace. And that Osama’s ideas do not represent the “real Islam”.

    The truth is a lot more complex. It does not matter what real Islam is. There is a militant component in Islam and there are many Muslims whose worldview is as I described. For those afflicted with political correctness, let me leave you will a quote for Ayatollah Khomeini:

    “But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world. Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those (who say this) are witless. “

    If you are one of the politically correct, I think he was referring to you.

  • carmine

    Please do keep writing. Yours are clearly the most authentic comments to appear. I actually agree with your implied premise that religions are political institutions with divinities attached. I myself follow the religion of Western Enlightenment, despite all the attacks against it by those whose lives depend on it.

  • Hindu

    Quote: “The Supreme Court in India has given police across the nation unlimited power to arrest and detain anyone who has been accused of talking to another person about Christianity

    Ridiculous. Give me proof and I swear I will never write in this site again.

  • Hindu

    By the way, did you know that Christianity became an established religion in India before it became that in Europe?

  • Hindu

    Another point.

    I mean no offence to missionaries like Saint Teresa but if you want evidence that Christian missionaries have demonised Hinduism, I would suggest you to read “India” by Thouburn. The book claims to be an excellent introduction of India ‘suitable to American Christians.’ The book, other than calling idols of our Gods ‘ugly images’ also to tell you that’ the much more enlightened mohammedans’ are your best bet to ‘spread the message of God in the land of the heathen.

  • Hindu

    “Dear brothers and sisters of America”- this was how Swami Vivekananda began his adress to The World Parliament of Religions held at Chicago in the late nineteenth century. His subsequent presentation of Hinduism as it truely is resulted in him making it to the front page. The New York Herald wrote, “After listening to him we realise how foolish we are in sending missionaries to this learned nation.(India)” After reading about ‘his conquest of the American mind’, I thought the west had forever abandoned the notion that Hindus were a bunch of snake charmers; that the Vedas- the earliest written literature humainy possesses and the holy scripture for most Indians is a song of cowherds. I do not how how my ancestors- the composers of Upanishads, those who said “Udaracharitaanaam tu Vasudhaiva kutukmbakam- for an open hearted man thre whole world is his family” would have felt if they ever knew that one could ever call India as the “Taliban of Hinduism”. Christians and muslims pray to God to protect only his believers; whereas we begin our day with a prayer for world peace. And I am unable to see any rationality in the arguement that India’s diversity is a formula for disaster. Seriously, do you think Indian civilisation has lead a dngerous existence for over 6000 years. Do you think that a religion of nomads has held India together for as long as her history is? Doyou think that a primitive culture is the one whioch has produced men of most exalted charecter, has resisted the invasion of the Greeks,Persians, Arabs, Huns, Schythians, Mongolians anfd even topple ‘the empire on which the Sun never sets’? I would suggest that if you have a tiniest doubt that Hinduism is the oldest surviving religion, a religion which was ever progressive, a religion even to this day has over a billion followers you need to read a lot.But I agree with Darren on one thing- Hinduism is a false religion. In fact the word Hindu itself has no meaning ina nay indian language. Most scholars agree upon the fact that the word ‘Hindu’ owes its origin to the Mongolian word for India- “Hsin-tu”. The earliest names of India are Aryadesha, Bharathakhand, Bharathavarsha, Jamboodweepa etc,. But again, Hinduism is not a religion .It is the Indian way of life, a conglomeration of all the Indic faiths- Brahminism, buddhism, Vedantism, samkhya, Mimamsa, Nyaya, Yoga, Vaisheshika, Vaishnava, Shaiva, Advaita, Charvaka, Dwaita, Naasthika, Vishishtadwaita, Shaktivishishtadwaita and a hundred othe philosophies whose names I think would achieve to be nothing but tongue twisters here. But all the Indic faiths, except perhaps Buddhism and Jainism has its base in the Vedas and the two epics Ramayan and Mahabharatha each of which is over two times larger than the Illiad and Odyssey combined, the latter being the longest poem in the world. Each of these philosophies teach us that “ahimsa paramo Dharmah-non-violence is the greatest virtue” which, as you see is quite contrary to the teachings of Taliban. But you must know that stray incedents of religiuous intolerance occur in any country. I come across racincidents of racial discrimination meted out to NRIs (non-residential indians) almost every day. But that is no basis to conclude that the Americans are a bunch of bigheaded fools. I would also like to say that one can not think his own religion to be true. Darren you say you have never read any Hindu text. How did you conclude that Hinduism is false? I myself am a regular viewer of Biblical channels and I never felt that there was a sudden revelation of truth in them.

  • Actually Islam and christianity have made things very easy for mankind.

    They both have declared that all superstitions before them were well ahem…..superstitions and hence false.

    Now all we have to do is declare that all superstitions including those which declare that all other superstitions besides themselves are false are also truly false.

    Problem solved. 🙂

    After that the only faith in the world must be Humanity and being good to each other.


    JR: “…the infinitesimal minority whose moral code is based on manners…”

    I love this!

    (If it were shorter — and a bit more lyrical — we could turn it into a ‘movement’)


    BTW: Anyone notice that Carmine posted a message that said he’s unable to post a message?

    It’s a self-negating act that shows what a kick-ass Philosopher he really is!


    PS: Carmine — ya know I’m just funnin’ with ya — in my patented, profound way.

  • JR

    Shark: Does someone with “morals” automatically have “manners”?

    Well, proselytizing is inherently rude. But I guess it’s the moral thing to do under the assumptions of evangelical Christianity. So unless you’re in the infinitesimal minority whose moral code is based on manners, they’re not congruent.

  • MCH

    You didn’t try to use the word “Chickenhawk” did you?

  • carmine

    I seem to be banned fom commenting team, I have one but somehow it has words the filter won’t let through.

  • Martin Lav

    ~Does someone with “morals” automatically have “manners”?

    ~And vice versa?

    ~Or can a person have one without the other?

    On a moral basis on can not condone finding the nearest tree and a rope and gladly swinging the author from it.

    My manners prevent me from calling the author what I really feel in a public forum.

    So I guess you’re right, you can’t have one with out the other……I say shoot the author …. burp!

  • gazelle

    weel the only thing missing in the article is well philosophy.

    in a post-kant post-hume dead world where can one go except metaphysics… hence playful deadly certainties abound.

    need more scepticism and metaphysics in equal measure. .. and the ‘only’ certainty there is, is not ‘liberal democracy’ … it remains an open question in a big wide world.


  • I’m with you most of the way there, Shark, good manners are really important and morals (although I prefer the word ethics myself) are vital too.

    Oh, I reckon we are in the tailend of the dark ages at the moment and, on good days, I fancy I can see a glint of light from a hopefully brighter future in the distance.



    I have a sorta related philosophy QUESTION:

    ~Does someone with “morals” automatically have “manners”?

    ~And vice versa?

    ~Or can a person have one without the other?

    ~And if — as a culture — we possess NEITHER, could we start on the “manners” and work our way up?


    *take advantage — i’m not used to hangin’ with a philosopher!


    Oh, I found another money shot!

    J. Carmine: “This world war is the “World Moral War,” the war for moral clarity on earth.”

    Wow. “Moral Clarity”

    After the cold shiver down my spine subsided — I had to laugh:

    this planet is currently awash in people, religions, and poitical movements with “Moral Clarity” — but I see very little that’s MORAL about ANY of it.

    Any theories as to why that is?


    Oh, almost forgot:

    The title:

    “Thank God for Radical Islam”

    is which one of the following:

    1) Poorly Conceived
    2) Unfucking-believable Unintentional Irony
    3) Bad Taste
    4) Really Silly


    Jame Carmine, PhD = Typical “philosopher”

    ie. typed very much — and said almost NOTHING of practical value.

    Took me a few minutes of wading through the ‘poetic podium pounding’ to find what I guess is the “money shot”—

    “…I fear that unless America is willing to define the moral core of liberal democracies, we […] will be entering a time that will be known as the twilight of liberal democracies…”

    A Few *Sharkian Points:

    1) American’s (as a whole) have never had a propensity to “define a moral core” of anything; we’re only concerned with expansion, growth, getting/spending, etc. Morality doesn’t enter into it.

    2) Even the majority of hard-core Fundamentalist Christoids ignore their religious ‘moral cores’ when it comes to their “prosperity” theology; their religion is just a cosmic justification for the either being rich or wanting to be rich.

    3) If America and the West have entered the Twilight of Liberal Democracies — we brought it on ourselves. It began WAY before 9/11 — and has less to do with Islamic nuts — and more to do with the fact that our basic “philosophy” is “FUCK THE FUTURE; I got mine.”

    4) I would agree that we’re probably entering a sorta Dark Ages — HELPED along by what will be THE conflict of the 21st century: a clash between a blind, fantasy-based Islam and a blind-fantasy based Consumerism.

    5) I agree with Nalle that your obsession with the Pope is ill-conceived — one would be hard-pressed to find a more marginalized “spiritual leader” in the west.

    *that’s philosopher lingo!

  • Huvis

    Darren and Apollo

    Sorry to dash both your hopes but despotic and racist Christians will not be waging war against desperate and intolerant Hindus just yet. I also think that both of you really love the chance to have a go at each other. Enjoy your treat.

    I am kind of enjoying it myself… 🙂

    Anyway I thought the point of the article was that the rise of radical Islam proves Huntington right: the Clash of Civilisations is nigh. Christ, if it all weren’t so bloody sad, that could have been the title of a best-selling game.

  • Apollo

    Darren the “evidence” is not worth the e-paper it is typed on. considering this. it is not that Hindus are doing what they are doing in ur bible belt. They are only protecting their own souls from being corrupted by a bunch of fundamentalist missionaries who have no respect for the local faith and traditions. most indians even if poor will welcome guests and even share what little they have with them.

    But the missionaries spread poisonous propoganda, hurt their religious feelings etc… and when things get really unbearable the people lash out and then ur kind goes whining that they are being persecuted. In what way are u different from the whining of CAIR, MCB etc…who condone the actions of terrorists citing western foreign policy?

    u called hinduism a “false faith” just like islamists call everyone else a infidel and then u have the spine to call the hindus as somekind of taliban alter ego. read ur own comments and see who is the taliban alter-ego urself or the hindus.

    like many say christianity is in its terminal stages and will soon pass away and the sooner the better. it has been a nuisance to humankind since the last 1700 years when Emperor constantine declared it the Roman official religion.

    The Romans and greeks till then followed a faith similar to hinduism and there was not a single religious strife till christianity came onto the scene.

  • Mohjho

    Or…the real war is between opposing factions of Islam and between the large poor Islamic population and the Islamic dictators that oppress them.

    The west is merely collateral damage. This however is changing with U.S. foreign policy becoming more violent, ruthless, and with a crusade mentality.

    Remember Jim Jones, or relive him.

  • The Muslims and the Catholics, who together speak for nearly four billion people (more people than ten USA’s)

    A most accurate guess is probably 2.35 billion.

    Christopher Rose: Fundamentalist Protestant, Catholic, Jew or Muslim, it’s getting harder and harder to tell them apart…

    If there is a terrorist attack it is probably a safe bet that it was a radical Muslim.

  • I am not a religious guy myself, but it is rather obvious that an overwhelming majority of those that take Muslims seriously on their threats are religious Christians. Why it is that religious conservative christians are clearer on the threat when it is in reality a war against the West by Muslim extremists is an ironic twist.

    The moral war. It is all about our liberal democracies and the values they esteem, which are utterly antitherical to a theocratic world government envisioned by many in Islam.

    Right now at least it ain’t about God, its about western values – and that should unite us all, liberal or conservative.

  • Josh

    Darren and Apollo

    Relax. There are going to be both Mother Theresa’s and psycho-fanatics in every religion.

  • Ok, I get the part about radical Islam wanting to kill us, but what’s your hard-on for the Catholics all about? The Catholic church has one foot in the grave and most Catholics seem about as corrupted by the lure of consumerism as everyone else. Their leaders may talk a good moralistic game, but I don’t see anyone listening.

    The real comparison is between radical islam and fundamentalist protestantism.


  • Darren

    By the way the evidence I did provide was just glossed over and/or ignored.

  • Darren

    I was confronted to provide some evidence and I did. Then once provided, the “attack” takes a different form,i.e. that I am a white version of Osama Bin Laden! (Speaking of racism…Yes I am white but no where did I say I was…bigotry just assumed that). By the way, this “white Osama Bin Laden” as YOU called me is not engaging in terrorist attacks on civilians or advocating suicide/homicide bombers. With the “hostility” I sense from Appollos, I can only imagine the hostility that Christians are actually receiving in India by both the government and Hindus.

    India is quickly becoming the “Taliban of Hinduism” in Asia. Imagine a law you can’t share Christianity or any faith for that matter! The Bible says “Come let us reason together”.

    Quote: “The Supreme Court in India has given police across the nation unlimited power to arrest and detain anyone who has been accused of talking to another person about Christianity.”

    My understanding of Apollos thinking is that if you overturn a table or make a “negative” comment about Hinduism, then you deserve to be murdered or raped for nowhere is his posts does he condemn such violent behavior.

  • MCH

    “But what are we to do about it?”
    – RJ Elliott


  • S.T.M

    Could I suggest here that we a) inject a note of sanity into this debate and b) put this into perspective?

    The facts: Islamic fundamentalists have been doing this stuff for many hundreds of years. In fact, since the birth of Islam, they’ve never stopped doing it. The big difference: This is the first time America has been caught up in it.

    We got to see it in all its graphic horror, unfolding on television screens around the world – just like the Vietnam war, except this time America is the victim.

    But let’s not pee our collective pants too quickly, because that is precisely what they want. For all the “military” advantages our way of life gives them in their battle with us, Islamic fundamentalist terrorists have one major problem: they are arrogant and deluded enough to think we are weak and that they can do whatever they want and get away with it.

    So far, they haven’t been able to do so, and they won’t in the future, although they may have some successes.

    WWIII isn’t upon us yet. While our will remains strong, we have little to fear except fear itself.

    For America’s own pertinent experience (yes, slightly different, I know) think back a mere 60 years to the Kamikaze attacks on the Allied navies in the Pacific.

    What we are experiencing today is on a much smaller scale, but like then, the tactics being employed to counter it are mostly working.

    And by its very nature, radical Islam, as a hateful ideology, will bring about its own undoing.

    The key to victory is always in knowing your enemy … America is just getting to know him.

  • Huvis,

    suffice to say it is not as bad as it seems or Darren makes it seem. come over to india and see urself what it is like. people here get along perfectly fine until they are provoked. Hindus are slow to anger and the christians missionaries and fundamentalist muslims are not trying hard enough to get them worked up. if Hindus were even 10% as violent as Darren says there would have been no non-hindus in India and like u urself say there are large numbers of them. The churches that have been built since the time of the portuguese 500 years ago still stand. but the same cannot be said about temples or idols where christian missionaries manage a foot hold anywhere.

  • “And note I NEVER said that anything was in Hindu writings. I have never read Hindu writings and don’t care too since it is another false faith.”

    Darren, this shows where u come from. ur just a white Osama bin laden just another religious bigot and like huvis said all ur evidence is largely anectodal and seek to emotionalise the issue.

    I could say a lot of things about the ridiculosness of the Bible but unlike ur crusader pope i would not like to offend people who are only nominally christian.

    suffice to say that the Romans had a very good justice system on which the current American law courts came to be based. It is very unlikely that they condemned a innocent man. The man they crucified and u worship was a criminal, an outlaw who once entered the temple of jerusalem and began smashing everthing(and u say christians do not smash anything), he stood on roadsides and insulted people going about their lives for their “unbelief”. Today he is projected as a “peaceful man” but in reality he was anything but that he was a criminal who deserved to be prosecuted and crucified.

    later christians simply turned the argument 180 degrees and made it look like he died for the good of mankind. like they say winners get to write history.

  • Possibly predictably to those who know me, what I get from this is that it is these organised religious cults which are the enemy of humanity in general. Fundamentalist Protestant, Catholic, Jew or Muslim, it’s getting harder and harder to tell them apart…

  • John

    As one of the few people in the world who have read Pope Benedict’s paper, I agree with the Pope.

    The conflict between radical Islam and American/Western consumerism/commercialism is only going to get worse. Both sides are evil, in my opinion. But the radical Muslims have got an edge – they’re willing to die for what they believe. As Benedict XVI said, that’s wrong and it has nothing to do with religion, but it remains a fact that the Muslims have more motivation to advance their cause than America and the West do.

    PS: I liked the column. It’s time America woke to what it really is.

  • Huvis

    This discussion thread is entirely irrational. Darren, as a fellow Christian, congratulations on the power of your faith: the Christianity you speak of surely isn’t the same religion that spurred centuries of warfare against the Gnostics, the Jews, the Muslims (in that order). Do you need to be reminded of the burning of the Great Library?

    In truth, the world is a better place because the cause of science and technology and western philosophy (different from theology) won over the last 200 years. It has nothing to do with Jesus or Allah or Buddha. Organized religion is the curse of the modern age, peopled by little insects, each clutching his or her precious little bundle of god-given dogma.

    Apollo, your argument is coarsely “patriotic”. The facts bear out otherwise; India reminds one of a large cauldron of castes, religions, languages: recipe for disaster. But oh Darren, your long winded rebuttal is intensely funny. First, it is anecdotal, so would you tell me how many Christian communal killings have taken place over the last 50 years in India? Try comparing that with the Christian population. About the whole missionary conversion part, I am reminded of their benevolence in Africa in the last two centuries: “A bible for your country”.

    Nancy my dear, while the arguments are cogent, I should temper down the indignance a whit. The last thing we want is another crusade to “liberate” caste-ridden Hindus. Then I can assure you we will be doomed (with fully 3/4s of humanity against us).

    Nuke, nuke, nuke, nuke. One solution to the world’s problems.

  • Nancy

    Appollo, do you consider Mother Theresa to be someone whose activities were derogatory to India & Hindus? Your assertion that missionaries come in and insult your religious icons & beliefs is bullshit. 99% of christian missionaries who have gone to India spent their lives slaving away ministering to the very poorest, who fellow Indians wouldn’t lift a finger to save because of their caste – and you know it. If they ‘disrespected’ your beliefs, it was because your beliefs consisted of labelling substantial numbers of human beings as “untouchable” & creating such horrific conditions for them that they had to live worse than animals; and in that, they needed NO justification to try to make their lives something more than living hell in defiance of Indian beliefs & tradition. Stupid or repulsive beliefs deserve no respect. As for missionaries destroying your icons, please provide proof, not just wild statements. I have found no incidents mentioned anywhere that have been substantiated these accusations. Anybody can make slanderous charges, but they can’t always prove them.

  • Think of it this way:

    If every Muslim in the world woke up tomorrow a Christian, or an atheist, or a Buddhist, or a Hindu, or a Jew, the world would be a safer, more peaceful place.

    But if every Christian, or atheist, or Buddhist, or Hindu, or Jew, woke up tomorrow a Muslim, the world would be a more dangerous place.

    Clearly, the problem here is contemporary Islam.

    But what are we to do about it?

    Muslims are breeding like rabbits, and they have been very effective in their proselytizing in prisons in the US, and by the sword in other areas. These two facts coupled together mean that Islam is a growing religion (in population, both absolute and relative). Meanwhile, other world religions are declining, either because of increased secularism, or low birth rates, or both. And secularism teaches a philosophy of moral equivalence, which will be of no use in a war or religious/cultural ideologies.

    So, basically, we’re screwed. Our grandchildren will live under the yoke of fundamentalist Islam. Our granddaughters will wear black bags over their heads and be forced to marry men they have never before met by age 14. Our grandsons will believe that murdering “the infidel” is the surest way to paradise. Our books will be burned, along with our cities.

    The West no longer has the guts to defend itself from the barbarians. These are the last days of civilization. Enjoy it while you can, however you can.

    Maybe a day at Disneyland?

  • Darren


    I add killing back and add raping of nuns. See BBC link…

    I knew Hindus were killing Christians as they did a priest. But to rape nuns? That I did not know until I read the BBC article referrencing a Human Rights Watch report.

    Just an excerpt: “…Christian leaders believe religious hatred lies behind many cases, including the murder in January of an Australian missionary and his sons, and the recent murder of a priest and abduction of a nun.”

  • Darren


    If I googled I could probably provide evidence of killing. But I will soften my language, i.e. retract killing, and say beatings, jailing, harrassing, and/or other forms of violence against Christians instead.


  • Darren


    What I said is true and your “execption” is noted. Laws in India are in place used to intimidate and threaten Christians. Hidus are threatening Christians. And note I NEVER said that anything was in Hindu writings. I have never read Hindu writings and don’t care too since it is another false faith. Christians aren’t “smashing” anything…just sharing the Gospel…and the Truth of the Gospel scare many people and make them mad.

    Here are just some links. Google yourself if you want more. Hidus are just as afraid of people converting to Christianity as Muslims are; hence laws enacted prohibiting talking of Christianity or “attempting” to convert a person to Christianity.

    World Net Daily

    The 50-year-old leader has shepherded 18 families at the Kodambi Village Church in Hankaltaluk in Karnataka State for several years.

    He was forced from his home in the middle of the night as the Hindus threw his personal belongings out of his home and accused him of converting Hindus to Christianity, officials said. The attackers loaded Pastor Joseph’s possessions onto a tractor and then sent him to the Mundgode police station, about 20 miles away.

    Police there took him into custody, ignored his possessions, but released him a short time later.

    The province of Karnataka spreads over the Deccan Plateau and covers about 7 percent of the nation of India, holding a population of about 45 million. The name reportedly comes from the word “Kari-Nadu,” meaning black soil or beautiful country, the government’s website explains.

    The government’s document also explains that the region’s “religion” includes the “popular belief … that the almighty power enters the human body and blesses the people.”

    The region is known for its grandiose temples, the Gomata colossus and the pursuit of lives of “good conduct and self-surrender” which are supposed to lead to “spiritual vision in celestrial songs,” the government explains.

    Officials said when Pastor Johnson, a senior Christian leader in the Dakshina Kannada district, and a local Christian, David Chacko, went to visit the Mundgode police station to try to resolve the situation, they were the victims of a militant conspiracy with police and were attacked before they let Chacko’s home, and dragged to the police station.

    The arrest was again followed by harassment, after which they were set free, officials said.

    Pastor Chandrakanth

    Meanwhile, the attackers also chased Pastor Chandrakanth, an evangelist from the village, and began hunting for other pastors nearby.

    “The Voice of the Martyrs has since assisted in providing shelter in a nearby city for Pastor Chandrakanth, who desires to continue his evangelization of the area despite stiff opposition,” Voice of the Martyrs said.

    VOM was launched by Rev. Richard Wurmbrand, who wrote “Tortured for Christ” about his experiences representing Christ in war-torn Europe. His testimony, and ministry’s work, has spread around the globe.

    World Net Daily

    While I frequently speak of the unwarranted bigotry against people of faith in this nation, a recent instance in India has brought to life the severe environment in which many Christians live across the globe.

    Several weeks ago, Liberty University alumnus Dr. Samuel Thomas, president of Emmanuel Mission International, the indigenous mission partner of Hopegivers International, was arrested and jailed for several weeks by shadow law enforcement figures in the state of Rajasthan. He was apparently arrested over a book he had distributed that allegedly contains derogatory references to Hindu deities. See link above for more info.

    World Net Daily

    The Supreme Court in India has given police across the nation unlimited power to arrest and detain anyone who has been accused of talking to another person about Christianity.

    The report comes from the World Evangelical Alliance Religious Liberty Commission, which issued the alert on its News & Analysis mailing list, and Assist News Service.

    The WEA report by researcher Elizabeth Kendall said the ruling “opens the door for police with Hindutya sympathies to act as Hindu Taliban.” See link above for more info.

    I think I’ve said enough Apollo.

  • “well except for the Hindus killing Christians in India and surrounding areas.”

    Darren i take strong exception to ur statements. why don’t u provide some evidence to back up ur claims?

    Hindus do not have anything against the christians. There is nothing in Hindu scriptures which urge its followers to go and kill the followers of the cross/christ but there is more than enough in the Bible which urges its followers to kill the “idolators”(hindus) and “unbelievers”.

    It is the christian missionaries who come to India and insult its religious icons and beliefs and suffer the consequences.The blame lies squarely with the christian missionaries they should show some respect for the local faith and religion. If i come to ur house and start smashing everything around and insulting ur deeply held beliefs and calling u names. how will u react i wonder?

  • Nancy

    To paraphrase Karl Marx, this just goes to prove that religion is not the opiate, but the poison, of the credulous & ignorant masses.

  • Darren

    One more thing.

    You stated: ‘…America is willing to define the moral core of liberal democracies”.

    What did define the moral core of liberal democracies, i.e. the West, was the Judeo-Christian faiths. But now the West has abandoned its moral foundations; hence leaving it empty and devoid of a moral compass.

    Humanism, secularism, atheism, and any other “ism”, will not save America, but in fact are responsible for its decline.

  • Darren

    I agree that we are at war.

    Remember a house divided cannot stand. You need Christians from all walks of life to fight the scourage of Islam. This fight cannot be fought alone. Even the atheist needs Christians to fight this battle for Islam is hell bent on taking over the world to impose sharia law. I know athiests hate Christians; yet imagine if they were having to face Muslims alone.

    Christians don’t strap on bombs. We have not brought down a skyscraper. If Christians were removed from this world, this world would really be hell on earth far worse than what it is right now.

    Imagine though if Muslims were removed from this world, it would almost be like paradise…well except for the Hindus killing Christians in India and surrounding areas.