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Terrorists on the Way to Gaza Stopped by IDF – Shooting Breaks out on the Boat

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The IDF, under the command of Ehud Barak, demonstrated that it could do more than merely bully Jews and destroy their homes. The much ballyhooed “convoy to Gaza”, sailing under the Turkish flag, was boarded and seized at about midnight, 31 May 2010, Israel Summer Time.

The “convoy” was supposed to relieve the alleged “humanitarian crisis” in the Gaza Strip. The Turkish government had threatened Israel with reprisals if it intervened in the progress of this convoy.

The IDF action was supposed to fulfill its vow that the sovereign waters of the State of Israel would not be violated. The boats were instructed to proceed to the port of Ashdod, where relief for Gaza, if there was any, would be transferred overland. The boats ignored the instructions and when IDF soldiers boarded the ships, terrorists on the boat attacked them, wounding some soldiers. The terrorists were shot at and subdued finally with gas grenades. Two of the terrorists were killed according to al-Jazeera. Initially, this report had been ten terrorists killed.

In the aftermath of a successful boarding of what were essentially enemy ships violating the sovereign waters of the State of Israel, the Israeli government has managed to demonstrate its inability to make propaganda points when needed. Stories in Ynetnews here, as well as here and here are all illustrative of this. The Israeli government will be skewered in the media over its unwillingness to call a spade a spade and over its fear of non-Jews.

Its failure to condemn the interference of foreign powers in the sovereign affairs of this country, and warn them of the dangerous results to follow, drags the reputation of the country lower and lower in the eyes even of those who support Israel.

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About Ruvy

Hi!! Thanks for coming to my article! I was raised in Brooklyn, was graduated from the City University of New York in 1978 with a BA in political science and public administration there. I lived in Minnesota for a number of years. There I managed restaurants and wrote stories. We moved with our children family to Israel where we now reside. My work can be found at Ruvy's Roost, Jewish Indy,, and on Facebook under my full name, Reuven Kossover
  • hewitt

    three cheers for the idf

  • Les Slater

    The biggest condemnation should be against piracy at sea. This is reported to have occurred in international waters. It’s not just Israel that proclaims its right to thuggery on the high seas, it’s also the U.S. and others following in its footsteps.

    The U.S. not condemning this speaks volumes.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I know I’m opening a can of worms insofar as Ruvy is concerned, but the whole question revolves around the legality of the occupation – I’m looking for a better term – of the Gaza strip.

    Until something gets done about it one way or another, both parties coming to an equitable resolution, these “incidents” will continue.

  • Les Slater

    Legality? It’s a very useful term. It has real meaning. The real question is the legality of Palestine being occupied by an entity that refers to itself as Israel.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    In this case it is, because we’re dealing with international conflict.

    Less so, I argued earlier, when the conflict is internal, because in that instance the notion of “legality” is but a term for perpetuation the status quo.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    BTW, Les – my reservations weren’t about the term “legality” but had to do with “occupation.”

    Can we speak of Gaza strip as being occupied? What exactly is the situation on the ground? How would you describe it?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    And BTW, I had gone through two lectures of David Harvey on “Reading Capital.”

    I’m gonna get a copy today (at Borders) and stumble through the first three difficult chapters. Harvey’s lectures are great but you have to have adequate command of the text.

    Marx indeed was a genius, especially when it comes to critiquing capitalism. The kind of understanding he offers, in this particular area, is unsurpassed.

    I’ve underestimated him thus far, and I intend to eliminate this blind spot.

  • Les Slater

    Much of Palestine is occupied by an entity referring to itself as Israel. Why limit the condemnation to Gaza?

  • Mark

    While waiting for Ruvy’s response, I point out that he justifies his entity’s existence based on treaty and, more importantly, conquest (legal niceties be damned). He has written on the topic and possibly will provide a link to his earlier work.

    Occupied? Take a look at the history Israel’s occupation of the headwaters of the Jordan.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, what I mean, the Palestinians live in the Gaza strip, not the Israelis.

    The strip is sort of isolated and choked to death, by Israeli embargo, but occupied, in the same sense as Poland was being occupied by the Germans for the duration of the war?

    Am I being too technical here?

  • Mark

    #7 — Well worth the effort, Rog.

  • Les Slater

    Mark, I’ve read his justifications. The primary beneficiaries are imperialism and a layer of the occupiers beholden to them. This a quite small layer. Events will isolate that minority and all the justifications from heaven and earth will not be able to prevent its destruction.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Well, I have a very different take on this entire matter. When I saw it on the news this morning my first concern was for our friend Ruvy and his family. Regardless of where one stands on the issues, I think it’s vital that we recognize one of “our own” are in the thick of it over there. And my thoughts and prayers are with Ruvy, his family and the thousands of innocents who live their lives in the most volatile of environments.

    So what exactly is the Israeli government trying to accomplish here? Netanyahu was to meet with the President this week. That’s off the table. The U.S. and Israel have been “partners” for years. But, as Ruvy has pointed out several times, that relationship opens the door to all kinds of debate. It seems to me that the American preoccupation with the Gulf oil spill, two wars and an economy on the precipice of complete collapse opens the floodgates for Bebe Netanyahu. There is no better time than the present for an Israeli military action. What will it accomplish? Will our threat level become a deeper crimson? Will we divert the public’s attention away from domestic matters so we can obsess about all things Israel? Or is this a way to open a corridor into the oil fields of the Middle East and insure the continuous flow of petroleum into the contiguous 48? I find the timing of this military action to be very suspect.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I don’t know, Silas. This is a moral question. Of course US imperialistic policy enables Israel to act accordingly. Ruvy of course will confirm the former while denying the latter. But you do have to consider the state of Palestinians in Gaza. It’s like being imprisoned in your own home.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Yes, Mark. I’ve become convinced of that.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Roger, I submit that we haven’t a clue what the definition of “morality” may be today. It seems to change depending on the argument. Regardless of the dynamics or motivation of the Israeli government, I find Netanyahu’s timing to be quite suspect. I don’t believe that the current Israeli Prime Minister has the best interests of the Israeli people in his heart. But this is an issue best left to the Israeli people to discuss, debate and decide.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It’s a matter of history, Silas. No reflection on Ruvy, but Israel has been a terrorist state from the get-go. Even in the sixties when I was there and the treat against the Israeli state was minimal, the Arabs were treated as second-class citizens, had to have travel papers to get from place to place, all kinds of permits to secure employment.

    My contention is, the Israeli state was built on imperialistic basis and ethnic bias, and US didn’t help. Granted, the existential threat was always there, but one can try to imagine how the situation might have been different if the Israelis were to take a more enlightened point of view and try to accommodate their neighbors into their statehood rather than regard all of them as “the enemy.”

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    As I skip across internet news sites, I found this interesting from the Jerusalem Post – Obama tells Netanyahu on phone: We need raid ‘facts’ ASAP:

    The teaser under the headline reads:

    US President Barak Obama postpones Oval Office meeting with the prime minister, presses for IDF flotilla-raid details, expresses “deep regret at loss of life.”

    Yet, the first paragraph reads:

    US President Barack Obama spoke by telephone with Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu Monday after the latter cancelled a planned Oval Office meeting scheduled for Tuesday.

    Now, we know that Western folks tend to have short attention spans and tend to read the first paragraph and move on. To me, there is a significant discrepancy between the teaser and the actual facts. As insignificant as it may be, I think it’s worth pointing out. After all, it depends on what your definition of “is” is.

  • Les Slater

    Netanyahu:

    “They were mobbed. They were clubbed, they were beaten, stabbed,” he said.

    “There was even a report of gunfire and our soldiers had to defend themselves, defend their lives or they would have been killed.

    “Regrettably, in this exchange… people died. We regret this loss of life. We regret any of the violence.”

    What a sniveling piece of shit.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “Our soldiers” is the significant phrase.

    It tells all. Israeli lives are more important when compared to the lives of the Palestinians or the supporters.

    Shame!

  • Les Slater

    Netanyahu justifies the killings based on IDF shitting in their pants.

    And this is supposed to the tough guy.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    All Israelis have been shitting in their pants since the inception.

    If they had only placed greater faith in their God, things might be different.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Indeed, Les, if that’s his verbatim quote as per earlier comment, he should disqualify himself from his position as head of state.

    That statement is pathetic.

  • Les Slater

    In my opinion Netanyahu’s remarks are quite revealing. They show a very deep nervousness, even up to the top. They ain’t as confident as they pretend to be.

  • doug m

    Apparently this site has littlw to no standards if the author can call the participants terrorists when early reports elsewhere indicate that’s a better description of the Israeli soldiers in this instance.

    I don’t understand Israel’s strategy to continually turn the world against them by their actions. I have a bad feeling things are going to turn ugly this summer in the region like hasn’t been seen in a while.

  • Gamal

    Israel defend it’s borders .idf is one of the best and powerful army in the world .you all under estimate the power

  • Les Slater

    And you overestimate it.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It’s in the national psyche, Doug. They believed it for years. And now it’s going to bite them in the arse.

    Nothing rational about it. It’s pathology, pure and simple.

    They can’t bring themselves to make peace in the region, so war it will be.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Such a powerful army that when one single soldier is made captive, they raise a big stink.

    Tell me about it!

  • Les Slater

    “They can’t bring themselves to make peace in the region, so war it will be.”

    The truth be that’s what their imperialist masters demand of them. Ever stop to think that it may the masters that are orchestrating this? The tone Netanyahu’s remarks point in that direction.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    The state of Israel exists by grace of God, but more importantly, by the will of the imperialistic powers.

    Take the latter away, and it will perish because of its own hubris.

    And yes, it’s quite in line with the prophecy – though Ruvy will no doubt disagree. The Messianic times are nowhere near. The flock ain’t ready.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    The US, you mean? Ruvy would spit in your face for saying Israel is responding to a calling higher that God’s.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Interestingly though, Obama’s response wasn’t critical.

  • Les Slater

    I’m quite interested in what Ruvy’s views are on Netanyahu’s remarks. I’m guessing he’s quite disgusted.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I’m certain he is. He was hoping for a more forceful response, as his article hints at.

    Still, I find it rather uncharacteristic that Ruvy doesn’t respond to every single comment. It’s so unlike him.

    Perhaps he is measuring his words. If that’s the case, good for him.

  • Cannonshop

    Seems to me the Israelis did what they had to do-it’s survival. Of course, folks like Les will be dancing in the streets when the Arabs are lynching Jews wholesale, completing the process they began in the 1940’s when they dispossessed jews throughout the region, or perhaps earlier- the Waffen SS certainly made good use of Arab and Muslim volunteers during the war.

    Of course, it’s all the American’s fault, “EEEBIL AMERICUNZ!!!”

    The israelis won three conventional wars so far without U.S. aid (we embargoed them in 56, 67, and 73), in the measure of the region, were they islamic, they’d have won the right to exist thrice over. but they aren’t, any more than the Maronites in Lebanon, who’ve been under seige from all sides for more than thirty years because they aren’t Muslims either.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Can’t put “lynching” and Jews in the same sentence, Cannonshop. That word is only used in the application of White racist debates. It’s like “genocide”. We never seem to have the courage to apply it to places like Kosovo, Somalia and Armenia.

    Whatever the Israeli government motivations, it is in our best interest to stay out of it. The Israelis have a sovereign right to defend themselves. The consequences of such maneuvers can be dealt with in a proper international forum.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Hi all! Before digging into the “arguments” presented here, I want to thank Silas Kain for his personal words of concern, and Gamal for his support of the IDF.

    We live in Samaria (relatively) far from the sea. For a good part of the day, I was in Jerusalem with my eldest son, who had some kind of meeting to give him guidance as to how he would handle life after getting out of school. Jerusalem is also (relatively) far from the sea.

    So, to answer Silas’ concerns and worries, we were entirely safe during this entire event. In fact, if I had been on the computer reading the news at 0:30, instead of watching “The Sopranos” with my other son, I would have had this article out by 02:00 in the morning – last night on your clocks. It would have read differently though. The crap from Ynetnews was not reported, if I remember correctly, until 06:00 our time, so my sources would have been from Arutz Sheva instead of Ynetnews, which is a bunch of leftist trash, anyway.

    NOW, gentlemen, if you will refer to the link on the words “humanitarian crisis” in the article, you will get a look at reality in Gaza instead of the lies of the Wahhabi and their poodles, the EU and UN. There is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza. What there is is a dictatorship of a bunch of oppressive Wahhabi fanatics who are making the lives of the Gazans miserable while constantly raising the flag of “Filastin” and hiding behind their women and children. My clawless and clewless cat has more guts than they do, and he has a yellow streak running down his back that’s about 9 inches (remember, he is just a cat) wide.

    As to the boarding, this happened on the sea. What Israelis should call marines, but don’t, stormed a few boats packed with terrorists and the terrorists attacked them. I would say, “what nerve”, but hey, at least they attempted to attack our marines. And this time they weren’t hiding behind the shirts of their kids or the skirts of their wives. So a bunch of them got killed. Too bad. Boo hoo! They can cry on my underwear.

    As for the blockade, since the “government” in Gaza is waging war against us, we have every right to “blockade” them to protect the civilian population of our country.

    Riding home on the bus this evening, we were discussing the constant bombardment of Qassams and other rockets from Gaza. The solution of the gentleman with whom I was talking was this: every time the Gazan terrorists launched a rocket, Israeli forces would occupy 100 meters of land, and destroy everything on it – houses, trees, factories, the works – and then withdraw. After 100 rockets, 10,000 meters of land will have been given the scorched earth policy. This gentleman, who reached the rank of s’gan aluf, Lt. Colonel, made lots of sense to me. Facing a policy of scorched earth would make the Arabs themselves rebel against the terrorist pigs in Gaza. Why should we invade and risk OUR soldiers occupying hostile territory?

    Since all of Mr. Nowosielski’s arguments are based on the specious lies of the Wahhabi pigs and their various poodles, his arguments are as specious as are their lies. Mr. Slater does not believe in a Jewish entity here, believing it to be anti-semitism. Those are his words, not mine. So for him to condemn anything the IDF does here is only to be expected.

    As for the rest of you, if you believe the garbage you see on CNN, you will come up with what amounts to garbage opinions – garbage in, garbage out, the computer boys like to say. And in this case, they are right.

    I haven’t checked on a lot of the news yet, only the comments I’ve seen here. I only got in about a half hour ago from Jerusalem.

    I will make these observations. Much of this situation lies directly on the shoulders of the so-called “government” in Jerusalem. The Shaba”k built up Hamas as an alternative to the PLO during the first Arab rebellion, and we are reaping the fruits of their stupidity. The Israeli “government” (under very heavy American pressure) brought in that scum, Arafat, and his gang of thieves from Tunis, and figured that killing religious Jews in “the settlements” was an acceptable price for the delusion of peace. All those suicide bombings earlier this decade taught a lot of Israelis, under the lash of personal grief and pain, that delusory peace was worse than war. Finally, that great hero, Ehud Barak, the egotistical piece of trash foisted on us by the “friend” Bill Clinton, pulled out of South Lebanon in 2000. All the deaths caused by HizbAllah since then are on that traitor’s head. May he hang until he is dead.

  • Les Slater

    “Seems to me the Israelis did what they had to do-it’s survival.” Of course.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “Survival,” Cannon, just as patriotism, have been used by scoundrels, to their many advantage. Many sins have been committed in its name, so no – I’m not going to fall for the simpleminded ideological spin.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Again, the Israel exists by the grace of God, but even more so, by the grace of powers that be.

    Lets not ever forget it. We created a monster that’s coming back to haunt us.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    The Wahhabis you speak of, Ruvy, are a figment of your imagination.

    And it sure helps, I suppose, to have an imaginary enemy. For if you can’t divine one from among the living, you may as well conjure him up from the dead.

    It seems you and your state can’t survive without the idea of there being an enemy.

    It’s part of the Jewish psyche, no? for its only from their enemies, real or contrived, that the Jewish people derive their common and individual identity.

    How sad!

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Thank you, Cannonshop. A voice of common sense, at least. A voice that is much appreciated by this Israeli.

    Thank you Silas, as well. It appears that you get the gist of the arguments I’ve been making.

    Thank you also Mark, for your comment #9. You may not agree with me, but at least you know my arguments.

    Lets not ever forget it. We created a monster that’s coming back to haunt us.

    Have you been consulting with George Marshall’s ghost, Roger?

    YOU created this country? You mean “you Americans”? No, dude, WE created this country with our own sweat and blood. What ever the faults this country has, and they are many, it is still OUR country.

    And we can do without you. Full stop.

    As for posting the article here, it is a place to hang one’s hat for the benefit of a URL. And it was news when I posted it.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    The Wahhabis you speak of, Ruvy, are a figment of your imagination.

    Like I said, Roger, garbage in, garbage out. You keep spewing more and more of it.

    Haval

  • Les Slater

    “Mr. Slater does not believe in a Jewish entity here, believing it to be anti-semitism. Those are his words, not mine.”

    Ruvy, I’m glad you remember. It was a long time ago. Your paraphrasing though, leaves much to be desired.

    When I was first on BC, back in ’04 maybe, I ran into you. I expressed that there were aspects to your views, pronouncements, whatever – were objectively anti-Semitic. I was taken to task by some of the regulars: “You have no idea who you’re talking about”.

    You were arguing something to the effect that if you don’t support Israel, you weren’t a “Real Jew”. I pointed out that denying any Jew the right to think otherwise, on pain of denying their Jewishness, was in fact, objectively anti-Semitic.

    Is that how you remember it?

  • Les Slater

    Still no comment on Netanyahu’s sniveling remarks?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Ruvy, I’m being polemical on purpose. But we do, both of us know, that without UN approval, you would have no country – however true it may be you fought for it heart and soul.

    It was a political decision to inaugurate a state of Israel, just as it was a political decision way back – because it was deemed expedient – to divide Poland into parts.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, it’s not just anti-Semitic. Anyone can be that. It’s downright supremacist, not different from a Nazi.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    since the “government” in Gaza is waging war against us, we have every right to “blockade” them to protect the civilian population of our country.

    If that’s the case, then why don’t you treat it as war? Invade them and level the terrain to the ground. What stops you?

    Blockade is chickenshit. It signifies weakness, or the simple fact you’ve got no moral ground to stand on. So make up your frickin’ mind or be condemned by public opinion.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    The world always appreciates a victor, never a weasel.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    When I was first on BC, back in ’04 maybe, I ran into you. I expressed that there were aspects to your views, pronouncements, whatever – were objectively anti-Semitic. I was taken to task by some of the regulars: “You have no idea who you’re talking about”.

    I vaguely remember this, but it happened in 2005 or 2006, not 2004. The first article I commented on here was one by Al Barger on riots that I think took place in Indianapolis. “Senator” Barger will correct me if I’m wrong as to the location. Anyway, this was in late 2005.

    But I forgive you. Us “young geezers” are entitled to our “junior” moments….

    I honestly don’t remember what argument I was making, but saying that a Jew who didn’t support Israel was less than real Jew does sound like something I would say. It is something I believe. It is just obvious to me from the text of the Torah.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Fuck Torah. You’re not Moses or any other prophet, major or minor, to interpret it for us.

    You’re just another human being, like anybody else, with no privileged access to wisdom and knowledge.

    Your lot is to fear and tremble. Get used to it. So don’t be putting on airs. Nobody’s buying it.

  • STM

    One of my colleagues was with the convoy reporting on it and was reported missing on that boat yesterday.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Let’s hope he makes it.

  • STM

    “The israelis won three conventional wars so far without U.S. aid (we embargoed them in 56, 67, and 73).

    The US did it by proxy in the earlier conflicts up to ’67. Israel used mainly British, and then later French and home-made weapons based on British and French designs. Their main battle tank was the British Centurion, which made mincemeat of the Egytians and Syrians in 1966. In one battle, 100 of them destryoyed 500 Russian-made tanks. Somehow, the plans for the upgraded next version – the Chieftain – found their way to Israel and were made into a home-grown version because the Arab states threatened the British with sanctions should they sell the new tank. But lo and behold, it appeared anyway.

    The Arab Legion and the other Jordanian forces proved a much tougher nut to crack in Jerusalem and had been trained by the same people as many of the older veteran Israeli officers.

    In the first Arab Legion/Israeli conflict, bizarrely there were British officers on both sides officially attached to either depending on who they’d been posted to at the time and when the shotting started, they dutifully turned up to work. Seriously.

  • Les Slater

    Calling this boat terrorist just goes to show perverted the use of the term has become.

    BTW, STM, check out #19 of Korea thread.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    fucking Nazis.

    IDF in action.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    In the aftermath of a successful boarding of what were essentially enemy ships violating the sovereign waters of the State of Israel, the Israeli government has managed to demonstrate its inability to make propaganda points when needed…..The Israeli government will be skewered in the media over its unwillingness to call a spade a spade and over its fear of non-Jews.

    I’m quoting the article, Roger. While I still haven’t read Netanyahyu’s statement, I have no respect for “Snivelus” Netanyahu and did not expect anything that would cover this nation with honor. Remember, this is the cheater who stole Moshe Feiglin’s legitimately won seat on the Likud list, the liar who told us there was “no building freeze in Jerusalem”, the man who will attempt to unload Judea and Samaria because he is a bought out traitor who owes the Rockefeller Foundation his career, not to mention his job. Benyamin Netanyahu pours feces over his brother’s memory every single time he opens his mouth.

    As for your complaints about Israeli strategy in Gaza, I refer you back to the comments of the gentleman I was talking with on my bus ride home.

    every time the Gazan terrorists launched a rocket, Israeli forces would occupy 100 meters of land, and destroy everything on it – houses, trees, factories, the works – and then withdraw. After 100 rockets, 10,000 meters of land will have been given the scorched earth policy. This gentleman, who reached the rank of s’gan aluf, Lt. Colonel, made lots of sense to me. Facing a policy of scorched earth would make the Arabs themselves rebel against the terrorist pigs in Gaza. Why should we invade and risk OUR soldiers occupying hostile territory?

    I’ll leave your more ugly remarks unanswered. Neither you nor they rate an answer.

  • STM

    Rog: “Let’s hope he makes it.”

    Damn right. He’s a good fellow and a very good journalist. He’s a veteran war correspondent and reporting on something like this would have been just up his alley. I hope he and the young woman photographer with him are OK.

    They haven’t been heard of since the boarding, when his phone went dead.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    As far as I’m concerned, this has done it. Israel just signed its death warrant.

    Netanyahu, visiting Canada right now and due for another visit in the US, is running like a chicken with his head cut-off. And for good reason, naturally. Excessive use of force, overreacting, same old bullshit your regime has been practicing for years.

    You’ve accomplished what you’ve long desired, Ruvy. You’re on your own.

    Mark my words, I give you six months, if that much.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I don’t know the person by name. Stan referred to him/her anonymously.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    I hope your colleague is found, Stan.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Really, Roger, you need to calm down a bit. Your heart and blood pressure will tolerate only so much unneeded anger….

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “This gentleman . . .”

    There are no fucking gentlemen in your part of the words, Ruvy. All of yous are frickin’ barbarians, and the sooner the Middle East sinks into eternal abyss, the better.

    The world had enough of a quarrel between the offspring of Abraham. It’s getting stale besides, the same old medieval drama, no fucking end in sight.

    Pox be on you and all your people. You’re a bad seed and your God had only led you down the garden path, leading to imminent destruction. And I won’t shed a tear because you’re bringing it on yourself. It’s none of my doing.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I’m fine, Ruvy, and I thank you for your concern. Just can’t see how you and your people can be so fucking myopic, thinking you can survive and make life for yourself amidst all this enmity.

    That kind of faith, I admit, I do not have.

    And BTW, ignore the previous comment – I was letting off steam.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    They haven’t been heard of since the boarding, when his phone went dead.

    Your government went quite overboard over the killing of that Hamas operative a while back. If this journalist colleague is being detained, there may be just a bit of payback involved, Stan. Just a thought.

    I keep telling you Israel is NOT a democracy. You keep refusing to believe me.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Wow, that’s a hell of an admission, Ruvy. But it surely was designed as one, originally.

    But perhaps I shouldn’t be the one talking, because if survival is at stake, fascism is the best solution.

  • STM

    I do believe you Ruve. Thanks. I just hope they are safe. It was a dangerous thing they were doing and I guess they knew it, but he’s been in dangerous situations before.

    And on the other thing, what do you expect a government to do when the passports of its sovereign nationals are forged for the purposes of assassination?? The issue has genuinely divided the country but sovereignty is sovereignty.

  • Les Slater

    Roger, you remind me of Peter Sellers in the wheelchair in Dr. Strangelove. Can’t help yourself?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Ruvy,

    I stopped by to say thank you for the kind words you had for me. I had been away from the internet and didn’t get to say that.

    Stan,

    I’d like to say the same to you. Thanks.

    Both your comments meant a lot to me.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Ruvy offers no evidence that any of the people on the boats were terrorists. He just declares it so. What a wretchedly unnecessary and inflammatory “article.”

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I hope you hear news of your friend soon Stan.

  • Les Slater

    “Israel defends its raid, saying its soldiers were ambushed as they boarded an aid ship in international waters.”

    L.A. Times

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Just acting out, Les, the right hand trying to stop the left, while twitching and raving and foaming at the mouth.

    Out of my system now. So it’s your turn to slug it out.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    What evidence do you need, Handy. IDF are the good guys, the trespassers are the terrorist.

    Which brings the LA Times headline into perspective: they boarded the intruder’s vessels, legally. And since they didn’t meet with perfect compliance, feeling their safety endangered, they started shooting.

    End of story.

  • Les Slater

    Intruder? It was in international waters.

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Ruvy’s article redacted to remove prejudice and factual inaccuracy:

    The IDF conducted another botched military action.

    The Turkish government, one of Israel’s main allies, had threatened Israel with reprisals if it intervened in the progress of this convoy.

    The boats were carrying 10,000 tonnes of relief for Gaza.

    The IDF boarded the ships in international waters, essentially an act of piracy, and the people on board tried to defend themselves. The IDF then attacked these largely unarmed activists killing at least ten people.

    In the aftermath of yet another public relations failure by Israel, by attacking unarmed ships in open water not the sovereign waters of the State of Israel, the Israeli government has managed to demonstrate its inability to make propaganda points when needed.

    The Israeli government will be skewered in the media over its unwillingness to engage in a lasting peace process, which drags the reputation of the country lower and lower in the eyes even of those who support Israel.

    There, fixed it for you, you funny old dogma addict you.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I was telling the story from Ruvy’s POV, Les, can’t you tell?

  • Les Slater

    Sorry.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy
  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Ruvy’s article redacted to remove prejudice and factual inaccuracy:

    Fortunately for all of us, Chris, you do not get to redact articles at this site before they are published. If you did, this site would be as accurate as the leftist trash found at Dissident Voice – a site that cannot handle dissident voices. Even the conservative echo chamber at Pajamas Media is more open minded….

  • Les Slater

    The people of the world have every right to attempt to deliver aid to the people of Gaza. It is the regimes that are preventing such that are the criminals.

  • Les Slater

    Never mind attempt… to actually deliver!

  • zingzing

    wait… they had knives… on a boat? what next, rope?

    besides, if someone boards your boat in the middle of the night in international waters, would you just meekly sit there, or would you fight them off?

    the situation in gaza is despicable, and this act of… whatever it is… terrorism? piracy? murder? is disgusting.

    and calling the dead “trash” is just shameful. they didn’t agree with you politically. and that’s enough for you to dismiss their life? someone needs to have a little sit-down with god or something, because you’ve got it all backwards.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    The Turkish pigs threaten to send their navy to escort other vessels to Gaza and demand an apology!! because their reservists were killed by Israeli soldiers. The Turkish pigs and their Persian Nazi allies want war. If they get one, Tehran is liable to be nuclear glass, as well as Ankara. I sure hope so. And Damascus will be a rubble, as prophesied in the Tana”kh. It is about time we Jews cleaned up the trash in the Middle East.

  • John Wilson

    Ruvy has slipped his trolley.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    and calling the dead “trash” is just shameful.

    You didn’t watch the PMV link, zing, you just opened your yap. Another know-it-all at the kiddush table….

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    More accurately, it’s lucky for you Dave has such low standards.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    No, John, I’m just as tired of all this as Roger is. And I want to see an end that is satisfactory to me and guarantees the security of my sons and possible grandchildren.

    Toss in Riyadh in the nuclear glass category just for good measure – to teach the stupid Americans not to hang around with hate-filled garbage like the Wahhabi.

  • doug m

    It may be time you Jews stopped acting like trash. I have yet to see an article disputing that the flotilla was bringing aid, so it looks like the Israelis are the bad guys in this instance.

  • Les Slater

    -85

    You got it backwards. The real masters of the Israeli puppets wouldn’t let it happen. Regardless of your inflated self worth, you, as well as most Jews in Israel are just pawns. The imperialists don’t give a shit about your, or anyone else’s imaginary god.

  • zingzing

    ruvy: “You didn’t watch the PMV link, zing, you just opened your yap. Another know-it-all at the kiddush table….”

    sure i did. shows what you know. you still need to think about how little you value human life, even if you disagree with them. nobody needed to die. there are ways to do this kind of thing, and it doesn’t involve shooting people in international waters. this is a severe fuckup on israel’s part.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    It may be time you Jews stopped acting like trash…..

    You know, Doug, now I get to express my opinion of you all. All you do is whine over your damned double-standards, and all our gutless leaders do is try to please the lot of you. Since you don’t give a damn if we die, why should we give a damn if you think we’re the “bad guys” here?

    For my money, if your country and economy goes down the tubes tomorrow, it will be good riddance to bad garbage. The same with Europe. We Jews don’t need you.

    And if you don’t like our stink, don’t hang around us. Stop using the penicillin we invented, the insulin we invented , the cell-phones we invented, the computer security devices we invented, the hand-washing we introduced to medicine, not to mention the zillion things we trashy Jews contributed to science, industry, chemistry, and the entertainment industry. Go back to being the savages you were a few hundred years ago before we got out of the ghetto and started making your lives better.

    We already know the gratitude we’ve gotten from you – an abiding hatred extending from the Crusades to the expulsion from York, England, France, Spain, the Hmielnicki massacres in Poland, and finally Hitler’s death camps.

    So your opinions of what we do are worthless. We Jews just don’t give a damn. A young lady I knew many years ago expressed the truth in one succinct sentence. kol goyim Hayot….

    “All goyim are animals.”

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Finally, I am not the only one to characterize the truth as THE TRUTH. Phyllis Chessler has done the same here.

    The same villains, the same Wahhabi-Turkish garbage, the same threats. This may develop into something bigger. I suspect it is just the beginning of a war down the road in not too long.

    May G-d protect our soldiers and may He guide the hands of our leaders to follow the admonition of Moshe the Law-giver: strength and bravery!

    And now it is past 03:30 in the morning. Good night.

  • zingzing

    easy for an old man to want war. very fucking easy.

  • Les Slater

    I’ll be out at the Israeli Consulate here in Chicago tomorrow afternoon protesting the raid. The protest is called and endorsed by a pretty broad range of groups. I look forward to being there.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Well, there it is, folks. Ruvy is prophesying that which may come to pass. These are strange times. The world is in a strange place. In times of such economic uncertainty nothing takes our mind off like a good old fashioned global conflict. Watch the stock markets this week, folks. If you see the military industrial complex stock prices rise, be afraid, be very afraid.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Les,

    I caught this comment before I closed down the computer and had to answer you.

    I would stay away from the demo tomorrow. I have a bad feeling about it. I’m not threatening you or trying to tell you what to do, and certainly not what to believe. However, the last time scum like that got out, they screamed, “Hamas! Hamas! – Jews to the gas!” That’s not you.

    But more to the point, as much as I may disagree with you, you are a gentleman, one whom I would rather not see hurt. I sense that the “Jewish street” may have changed its nature a bit, becoming more violent in its tendencies. Some young man may bring a weapon and discharge it.

    If you remember Kent State, you’ll remember that bullets outrun demonstrators.

    Must I explain in detail?

  • Les Slater

    “…they screamed, ‘Hamas! Hamas! – Jews to the gas!'”

    I doubt it. Not that I don’t think that sentiment might exist. If it did openly express itself I would have to confront it. Too many people know me. If I didn’t confront it it would speak volumes of my seriousness. But I would not be alone in condemning such.

  • Les Slater

    I know most of the people sponsoring this demonstration.

  • Cannonshop

    #40 Roger, when someone tells you they want you dead, then set their kids off as guided human bombs, it’s wiser to believe them, than to assume they’re lying.

    Do you know any Syrian jews, or Iranian (living in Iran) Jews, or Jordanian Jews, or Yemeni Jews (Or how ’bout a little further afield, like Libya, or Saudi Arabia?) NO, because the ones that survived, went to Israel. They ARE facing an existential threat here, Roger. There are Israeli muslims (even in the Israeli ARMY).

    It strikes me that just like in the 1930s, American/Western Progressives have no problem with genocidal maniacs unless those genocidal maniacs happen to piss of the Soviets (Western self-styled “Liberals” had no beef with Hitler until he attacked the soviets. IT’s telling that…)

    This isn’t re-drawing a border on a map, Roger, these people (Hamas, Fatah, Hizb’allah, etc.) mean business, and they’ve stated their intentions quite plainly and openly-dead jews and the expansion of Sharia Law to enslave or kill Jews, Christians, and kill people like me (Pagans, atheists and Agnostics).

    In my humble opinion, those that support these groups are effectively conspirators and accessories to their crimes, and conspirators to helping achieve their desired end-state, whether in the role of “Useful Idiot” (as Stalin once put it-referring to Western socialists and communists), or by deliberate intent.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    The boats ignored the instructions and when IDF soldiers boarded the ships, terrorists on the boat attacked them, wounding some soldiers.

    When I first read about the incident, I just knew that you’d try to come up with an excuse…and you did. You called the crew members “terrorists”.

    Were the ships carrying arms or ammunition? As far as I’ve seen, NO. Were any caches of firearms recovered? NO. Were any explosives or ammunition recovered? NO.

    The ships were carrying food and medical supplies…and for this, people on board were killed.

    For those who are unfamiliar with the blockade of the Gaza Strip by Israel, here’s a quote from Amensty.org:

    “For nearly three years, Israel, which is the occupying power in the Gaza Strip, has implemented a policy of banning all movement of goods and people, except for the most basic humanitarian necessities, which are imported by international aid agencies. Only a fraction of patients in need of treatment outside Gaza are allowed out, and dozens have died waiting for Israeli permission to travel.

    ?The blockade does not target armed groups but rather punishes Gaza?s entire population by restricting the entry of food, medical supplies, educational equipment and building materials,? said Malcolm Smart.

    ?Unsurprisingly, its impact falls most heavily on those most vulnerable among Gaza ?s 1.5 million people: children, the elderly and the sick. The blockade constitutes collective punishment under international law and must be lifted immediately.?

    Ruvy, policies like this do not make the people of Israel safer. Such policies ENDANGER your people, for every family member and every friend of a someone who cannot receive the food or care that they need because of Israel’s blockade…finds reason to hate Israel all the more. All this does is justify the hatred the Muslims have for Israel.

    Worst of all is the utter hypocrisy of the Gaza blockade. The inhabitants of the Gaza strip are kept there…simply because they are not Israelis. There was a time when the Jews were restricted to certain areas…simply because they were Jews. The flow of food, medical supplies, educational equipment, and construction equipment was restricted to them, too. These were called “ghettoes”, and the first one was in Rome. The Jews were restricted to these ghettoes because those in power thought the Jews were a threat…just as the Jews think the inhabitants of the Gaza strip are a threat.

    Utter hypocrisy, Ruvy…and it’s placing your nation in greater danger than you know.

    I pay attention to al-Jazeera. They’re not right about everything, but frankly, they’ve got more credibility to me than Fox News – at the very least, there aren’t literally hundreds of examples of lack of journalistic integrity by al-Jazeera, as there certainly is by Fox News. I mention this because last week something came up about a report by the Geneva-based Defence for Children International (DCI), which has collected 100 sworn affadavits from Palestinian children who said they were mistreated by their Israeli captors.

    I wonder if you feel the same depth of shame and anger that I felt when I found out how the Bush administration had tarnished America’s honor by endorsing a policy of torture.

    What this boils down to, Ruvy, is that the Jews are just as human as everyone else on the planet…and if Israel continues to act as if they can do whatever they want to whomever they want, they’re going to find out the hard way how much they need what friends they have left in this world.

    Honor, Ruvy. Maybe you think that’s a naive, dated concept…but it’s not. Your country’s honor has been tarnished. It’s time you held your own country to the same standard you expect of others.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    C-shop –

    Do you know any Syrian jews, or Iranian (living in Iran) Jews, or Jordanian Jews, or Yemeni Jews (Or how ’bout a little further afield, like Libya, or Saudi Arabia?)

    If you’ll do a little research, you might find there are Jews in EACH of those countries. Didn’t know that, hm?

    Yes, the Jews are treated as second-class citizens in each of these countries, but they are at least tolerated. You see, what the Muslims hate are not Jews so much as they hate what they call the “Zionist state”. Look up the “twice-promised land” sometime.

    Frankly, the Jews in the Islamic countries are far safer than they were among the ‘Christians’ in Europe throughout the first two millenia A.D. ….

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Glenn,

    Some 60 comments back, I opined that if you buy garbage propaganda, you will come up with garbage opinions. Garbage in, garbage out. And you have just done so in your last two comments. Anything Amnesty International has to say on Israel is garbage. The same is true for The Twice Promised Land.

    There are no Jews in the Arab thugdom of the Saudis, lest they contaminate the holy land of the Wahhabi pigs. The last Jews are leaving Yemen, barely any are left in Syria, or in Libya. In Jordan, Arabs may not sell land to Jews on pain of death, and the only Jews there are Israeli businessmen.

    The young lady who told me that “all goyim are animals” had come from a family of Jews from one of these “safe” Arab Muslim countries, and her opinion of non-Jews was far more vehement that mine. Her words, not mine, testify to the wonderful condition of Jews in the Arab world.

    As to ghettos, before you speak in ignorance, learn about them, and why they even came about.

    As to al-Jazeera, I’m happy you pay attention to them. They give Israelis the opportunity to actually speak to the Arab world. But, they are still an Arab station, and they will still lie.

    As to holding to standards, a friend of mine commented yesterday that Ynetnews made Israel look very bad in its coverage. I didn’t even bother with the trash in the traitorous rag, Ha’aretz. And I hold Jews and Israel to far higher standards than I do the animals around us in the world, including America. If you read my comments here, you would realize that.

    But when it comes to defending our homeland, if you don’t like what we do, that is just too damned bad. We don’t need you – you need us. Full stop.

    And between you and me, Glenn: when the Full Redemption occurs and G-d kicks your butt with His Reality so hard it will fly into next week, you will discover just how right I am.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Ruvy, policies like this do not make the people of Israel safer. Such policies ENDANGER your people, for every family member and every friend of a someone who cannot receive the food or care that they need because of Israel’s blockade…finds reason to hate Israel all the more. All this does is justify the hatred the Muslims have for Israel.

    Glenn, I do not care how much the Wahhabi pigs who run Gaza hate Israel. What interests me is that real Muslims learn from their own Qur’an the truth: that according to the guide G-d gave to Muhammed through the angel Gabriel, we Children of Israel – not the Children of Ishmael – have rights in perpetuity to this land.

    That’s TRUTH. What interests me is that the mistarvin of this country, the vast majority of “Arabs” living in Judea and Samaria, who know of their Jewish or Samaritan roots, get the chance to reclaim that heritage without fear of being murdered off by the Wahhabi pigs running the Arab “controlled” sections of Judea and Samaria. THAT’S RECONCILIATION AND PEACE.

    Ill-informed or non-informed foreigners like you, zing, Chris Rose, Roger Nowosielsi, Les Slater, Doug, “el bicho” etc., only contribute to the problems here with your ignorance and dogmatic assertions – assertions that are nothing more than lies repeated from liars who are well paid to lie to you.

    According to the Jerusalem Post, more ships are being sent to Gaza, presumably under the Turkish flag as well. I hope our navy sinks the ships at sea, and lets the scum on board drown. They want us dead, and they don’t deserve to live. Let the curses they call down upon us be visited upon them. Let them die, and let the vultures swoop down and have a feast off Gaza. And let the Gaza terrorists see the vultures, and let them figure out that the vultures can come for them, as well. And now other, more pressing business calls.

    Good day.

  • http://www.leavingthelandofwoo.com Bob Lloyd

    It’s clear that the Israeli state approved the attack by armed comandoes on an aid ship in international waters. The attack killed people on the aid ship so as a result of the action against a civilian vessel in international workers, Israel killed people on the open sea.

    Normally, we’d called the armed invasion of a civilian ship an act of piracy but the legal definition seems only to apply if the attackers are private rather than state sponsored. So, despite the legal niceties, this is an act of state piracy.

    Despite Israel seeing itself as at permanent war with all of its neighbours, and a sizeable part of its own disenfranchised population, in international law it is behaving as a rogue state, dismissing international rules of conduct, ignoring international resolutions, and committing violent acts on the high seas. If that was North Korea, what would happen? Well, we already know what would happen.

    Out of post-holocaust guilt, many of the western powers find themselves unwilling to criticise the violence and aggression of a puppet military state, whose only diplomatic purpose is to bolster western energy interests in the middle east. That leaves the ordinary workers in Israel living under a military state, which is trying to carry out ethnic cleansing, following on from Plan Dalet set out in 1948.

    Those who subscribe to the zionist dream turn against the Israeli Palestinians and argue for their expulsion, the seizing of land and the expansion of the state.

    It is to be hoped that more and more Israelis will see through the violence and irridentist aggression of their state and will realise that they have more in common with the ordinary working people amongst the Palestinians than they have with their rulers. That way, they might organise to dismantle the apartheid state of Israel from within.

    With only the US still operating a funding pipeline and a deepening financial crisis, and with precious few internal state resources, Israel may find itself squeezed from without at the same time as growing political consciousness from within starts to pull apart the military state. State piracy, attacking an aid ships and killing humanitarian volunteers, whilst it might provide a diplomatic excuse for avoiding talks, can’t cover over the massive cracks opening up within the Israeli state.

  • Les Slater

    Bob Lloyd – bless your soul.

  • Les Slater

    You see much clearer than most on BC.

  • Mark

    Israeli Jews lack the necessary legal structure to judge the righteousness of the actions of their rogue State apparatus. They remain cut off from their history with little chance of achieving any positive destiny.

  • Les Slater

    Mark, the working class standing up in the United States would deliver a powerful message to Jewish workers in Israel. That’s one reason why today’s protest in Chicago, and I presume elsewhere, is so important.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    You see, gentlemen, it is your enmity, and not that of the Arabs, that is the greatest threat to this nation. This is true of the American administration, of the worms who call themselves the leaders in Europe, of the savages who rule China and Russia, and of you hypocrites at this site, hypocrites who deny even that what I report is news.

    I could pretend outrage, anger and scream bloody murder. I could curse and swear, and call upon the Hand of the Almighty to kill you. But I will not do so. He who curses Israel is cursed. You are already cursed! Your words here have signed a Divine Warrant against you that all the pleading I could do on your behalf would not nullify. That applies to you, Mr. Lloyd, to you Mr.Slater, to you Mr. Eden, individually and severally, and to a whole lot of you who think that cursing Israel has no price.

    We will defend our freedom, and we will do what is necessary to do so – and the world and its opinions can and will be damned.

  • Les Slater

    Cursing Israel? Not me. I believe in historical processes. It is not in the interest of the majority of Jews in Israel to support the regime. Ranting curses and appealing to scripture like frightened sheep will not prevail in the end.

  • Mark

    If you read my comment as a curse, you are a great fool.

  • Les Slater

    “Your words here have signed a Divine Warrant against you”

    “I sense that the ‘Jewish street’ may have changed its nature a bit, becoming more violent in its tendencies.”

    Thugs of God? No, nothing more than frenzied dupes of Jew hating imperialism.

  • Les Slater

    Ruvy, you are so transparent.

  • http://www.leavingthelandofwoo.com Bob Lloyd

    The Israeli state is not a Jewish state. It’s not endorsed by Orthodox Jews because it’s not based on following the 613 principles and it’s only the confusion between ethnicity and religiosity that creates the fears in the Israeli state that one day, the demographic problem will result in many more citizens with better claims to Israeli citizenship than those who claim a Jewish background.

    Officially Israel is a secular state and the overwhelming majority of Jews in Israel are non- or anti-zionist. If it was a democratic state it wouldn’t be able to represent the interests of the citizens as based on aggression and territorial wars. The orthodox religious Jews despise the Israeli state because it tries to substitute the worship of the state for the worship of a god.

    There’s an excellent article by Aki Orr that helps clarify a lot of the confusions of Israeli politics:.

    Ruvy won’t like it one little bit – that might be a recommendation :)

    As for Ruvy’s confidence in being able to predict the violent reaction against me of an unevidenced, undetectable god, I merely cite my unevidenced undetectable absolute immunity shield. It works for me :)

  • Mark

    (In fact, Mr. Kossover, your #112 is a libel at heart and is best left to you and your god to work out, I guess — and here I thought that we were doing so well with our disagreements.)

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    The lame-brain media is refusing to show live footage from the IDF of the boarding of the boat, and how the soldiers of the IDF, originally armed with paintball guns, were beaten by the terrorists on the boat.

    Keep up with the lies and the taqqiya, gentlemen. But at least watch the video and see the truth, even if it sticks in your craws to admit to it.

  • Les Slater

    Paintballs? Pathetic. You’re beginning to sound like Netyanahu.

  • Les Slater

    Sniveling Netyanahu.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Let’s talk about that “humanitarian aid” so ballyhooed by Christopher Rose. Outdated medicine, old equipment. It looks like the cheapskates from Turkey scoured the garbage pails in Turkish Cyprus because I would not send outdated medicine as aid to anyone. That’s what these pigs call “brotherly love”. Boy, am I glad I am not a “Palestinian” Arab….

    Apparently, they don’t think much at all of the Gazans. It wouldn’t surprise me if they had only contempt for them – more contempt than I do, that’s for sure….

  • http://www.leavingthelandofwoo.com Bob Lloyd

    That video shows armed soldiers boarding a civilian vessel from a helicopter and the people on board repulsing illegal boarders. When it happened against Somali pirates, the crew were heralded as heroes.

    You can’t escape the fact that this was an illegal boarding in international waters of a civilian ship by a rogue state acting outside of international law.

    I like the amazing idea of the IDF using paintball guns though. I expect they use them in Gaza too… And if they were “originally” armed with paintball guns, at what point were they armed with machine guns and by whom?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Actually, those videos are available, as well as the videos from al-Jazeera,

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    I see not a single curse in the comments by Lloyd, Slater, or Eden…but you accused them of cursing Israel.

    Where does it stop, Ruvy? It’s as if it does not matter how wrong – or evil – the actions committed by the Israeli government, in your eyes the action must be good and right because it’s Israel that did it!

    “If we do it, it must be right!” Maybe I’m wrong (and sometimes I am). Maybe you don’t think that way…but it sure looks like it, because the attack on the aid ships is morally indefensible.

    Do you not see the danger? “If we do it, it must be right!” Do you not know how many wrongs, how many evils, how many massacres and even genocides have been committed by otherwise good people who so justify cruelty that they would condemn in the severest terms if committed by someone else? Of course you know…but it’s as if you think that the same moral defect cannot apply to Israel.

    Militarily, Israel is by far the strongest in the region. Its worst enemy isn’t the Muslims (enemies though they surely are). Its worst enemy is itself.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Les. I didn’t equip the soldiers who boarded the ships. I don’t give a damn about public opinion or yours. Were it my call, all of these boats would have torpedoed right where they were before midnight. And no efforts to save the bastards would have been made. Losing a couple of Arab traitors in the Knesset is no big problem. Killing off some Turkish linked Wahhabi pig is no great loss, either. If some Aussie newsman managed to swim to an Israeli boat, fine pick him up. But the trash could be left to drown.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Ruvy, if you’re so concerned with the quality of the humanitarian aid to Gaza, then why don’t your own people supply it instead of applying a strangle-hold which they do?

    That would seem a foolproof way of defusing the situation and doing away with the need for foreign intervention.

  • Les Slater

    I don’t care if they were carrying croquet mallets, they weren’t invited. They ended up killing people on board. Any defense of them is pathetic.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    In light of your #127, perhaps you should run on a fascist party ticket, otherwise knows as Likud. That way, we’d surely come to the quickest resolution in the Middle East, and eliminate the problem of a two-state solution.

    And BTW, here’s you hero’s, Albert Einstein’s view as to the nature of the Israeli state and its fascist tendencies.

    But of course, Albert Einstein was just another fool, duped by the MSM propaganda.

  • http://www.leavingthelandofwoo.com Bob Lloyd

    Ruvy, I think you’ve utterly discredited yourself. Any suggestion that what you might be reporting could be news is totally undermined by your blatant expression of prejudice and violent hatred.

    Everyone else commenting on this forum has been measured, informed, and considerate in their expression of their views in stark contrast to yourself.

    If you really can’t discuss these issues in an informed and open way, what is the point of writing the article? It certainly isn’t to have a discussion so presumably it’s simply to get a headline and some publicity for the prejudice you so obviously carry. That’s sad.

    But it’s all credit to BC that the opportunity is always there to answer such views, to provide objective counters to unbalanced claims, and to discuss these important issues with reasonable people. I do wonder though if there may come a time when they get worried about such headline grabbing when the intention to conduct a reasonable discussion is clearly not there.

  • Les Slater

    I know Ruvy, even the biggest bullies like the U.S. don’t give a shit about international law, but you know what, it’s a sign of weakness.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Correction to #130.

    Actually, it was Likud (a right-of-center, consolidation party) that was critical of the “”Freedom Party”” (Tnuat Haherut)and labeled it fascist.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    You fools are thoroughly brainwashed! Did you at least look at the video I posted, Glenn. You would have seen that this was no “aid” ship. It was a ship full of terrorists with bad medicine and outdated equipment hat ought to have been blown up from the gitgo.

    I’m not hospitable to enemies, Glenn, especially loudmouthed bastards from overseas who threaten our country and then paste their little stamp of a flag on these boats as if to scare us. The Turks are lucky we do not decide to use Ankara as practice for our nuclear missiles. That is what these arrogant scum deserve.

    We know exactly what your morals are worth, Glenn. Not a peep about the banning of kosher slaughter of meat in New Zealand, a discriminatory act if I ever saw one. But poor Attila the terrorist gets killed and the Joos are evil. Sorry, Glenn, I am unimpressed.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    C-shop

    We’re both wrong…and right.

    There are indeed no Jews openly living in Libya, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan. I was wrong on that one.

    There’s at least 25,000 Jews living in Iran, and 200 living in Syria. Life is not easy for either group…but they’re there.

    But I’ve got a different perspective when it comes to Saudi Arabia. You see, there may be thousands of Jews who are working there – but they simply can’t practice their religion there. Read this article – it’s enlightening…and almost certainly true. I can say it’s true because there are thousands of members of the Church of Christ (of which I’m a member) who are there. I’m not sure of the religious requirement of the Jews, but we in the Church must worship twice a week. We really do our utmost to attend. So what happens is that we hold our Worship Services there in secret – and when some non-member alerts the Saudis (as sometimes happens), we have to find another venue.

    And this isn’t just a rumor. In the United Arab Emirates, all non-Muslim religions are required to restrict their religious buildings in a particular reservation – I guess so that the UAE can keep track of who’s going in and out. We decided not to open ourselves to such possible persecution, so we hold our Worship Services in several secret locations, and I’ve seen it firsthand, having attended twice in the UAE.

    I would mention, though, that I saw what appeared to be a Jewish jewelry store in Dubai – unless “Goldberg” is a Muslim name, now, or unless Whoopi decided to go into business there.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Great point, Les.

    So what’s become of your intention to participate in the rally in Chicago?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    But even so, Glenn, why should we apply those standards to Israel? They’re the ones who are supposed to be the enlightened ones, bringing God and God’s laws to the Canaanites (as per God’s commandment).

    So Cannon’s argument falls flat on its face, even if he’s correct as to facts. It amount to saying that evil justifies evil.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    Oh, WOW. Knives. Metal clubs. Even a machete. OOOOOHHHH!

    Like these would even have stopped a Somali pirate, much less an Israeli commando!

    EVERY boat and EVERY ship has the right to carry at least SOMETHING for self-defense…and if you’ve ANY experience on a ship, there’s chains and metal rods all over the place! Why? Because they’re TOOLS!

    But can you by ANY stretch of the imagination consider a lousy two dozen knives on a whole doggoned SHIP a “cache of weaponry”? Oh, get real, willya!

  • Glenn Contrarian

    And THEN you posted this link as ‘evidence': “The so-called “humanitarians,” at least on one boat, came armed with metal bars and knives”

    Yeah. A lousy two dozen knives, and metal bars that are TOOLS on ANY ship.

    Ruvy, does or does not a ship’s crew have a right, nay, a DUTY to defend itself?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Everyone’s brainwashed except Ruvy.

    As to weapons found on the ship, in addition to knives, pipes and chairs, Cindy suggested one major omission: human fists.

    It’s surely a sign of negligence on the part of the Israeli propaganda, so intent on justifying its aggressive action before the international community, to make such an omission.

  • AFRIDI

    The humanitarian ships were just to make a political point to embarrass Israel. Spies of different military secret agencies were on baord….

  • Glenn Contrarian

    And let’s not forget this link that you used to ‘prove’ it wasn’t an ‘aid’ ship. Here’s the quote from the article:

    “Many of the medicines are expired and/or came in an assorted, not easily organized manner. In addition, much of the equipment is in poor condition”

    Have you ever lived in a third-world country, Ruvy? You know what? When you have little or NO medicine, when you have little or NO equipment, you will HAPPILY take even expired medicine and equipment that is in poor condition! I know this because I’ve seen it first hand!

    What your source actually showed – if you’ve got the eyes to see it – was that it was indeed an AID ship, and even though (not all of) the medicine was expired, and even though the equipment was in poor condition, it could still be USED by those who need it!

    When, oh WHEN will you start seeing through the propaganda foisted on you by your sources?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I suppose the Israelis don’t engage in similar activities, or if they had in the past, they’ve recently disbanded the Mossad in the interest of fair play.

  • George Mitchell

    This (from Ruvy #127 ) sickens me:-

    “Were it my call, all of these boats would have torpedoed right where they were before midnight. And no efforts to save the bastards would have been made. Losing a couple of Arab traitors in the Knesset is no big problem. Killing off some Turkish linked Wahhabi pig is no great loss, either. If some Aussie newsman managed to swim to an Israeli boat, fine pick him up. But the trash could be left to drown.”

    You wrote the damn article – except you can’t deal with anyone offering an alternative (and far more rational, intelligent and objective) view point – you once again resort to racism.
    I look forward to your article if it is found Israel is at fault.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Glenn,

    I hate to break this to you, but Gaza is not exactly a third world country with a shortage of medical equipment. It is a district under the rule of criminals who refuse to allow their population access to the best medical system in the Middle East.

    Hamas has created its own crisis. They have nothing to whine over.

  • Les Slater

    Voice of America:

    Egypt is opening its border with Gaza to humanitarian aid and relief. The move comes as Cairo, along with its neighbors in the Middle East, continue to condemn Israel’s deadly raid Monday of an international aid convoy to the Palestinian territory.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    About time the international community is doing something about it rather than just talking.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I suppose the Israelis are going to try to blockade that border as well.

    Good luck!

  • Les Slater

    I think the U.S. and Israel miscalculated on this one.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I think it would be great if something of substance could be accomplished without US intervention which, more often than not, is just smoking mirrors.

    (Did I use this idiom right?)

  • Les Slater

    Isn’t smoking mirrors bad for you health?

  • Les Slater

    It’s ‘smoke and mirrors’.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    :-)

    No, but the correct use never made me smile.

    (smoke and mirrors)

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    LOL Les!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    BTW, Cindy, I listened to your suggestion and included a set of human fists to the arsenal of the terrorists’ weapons.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, this is an informal type of writing, especially geared to the undeducated lest I be perceived as being condescending (as per discussion on another thread). Ergo, I never consult a dictionary for this medium and, as is expected, always shoot from the hip.

    I certainly can’t reveal here the total depth of my intellectual prowess lest I be declared an elitist intellectual.

    Vive le hoi polloi! (or the Tea Party crowd)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    should be intellectual elitist, but then again, who gives a f ….

  • Cannonshop

    You didn’t eliminate my point, Glenn-the Israelis aren’t facing an enemy who just wants to change some lines on the map-these people they’re facing, at BEST want to make them a form of second-class citizen *(and that’s assuming it’s the really mushy liberal ones who get to choose), they want to exterminate them. it’s an existential threat. The jews in Iran and Syria are on the kind of borrowed time that Jews in Europe who weren’t yet being shpped to the death camps were. Under those conditions, under that kind of threat, the Israelis have been far more measured in their response than any state in the region, and far far more inclined (however foolishly) to compromise.

    y’see, you can BE a Muslim in Israel without that being a suspended death sentence. You really can’t be a Jew in Syria or Iran and claim the same status. Israel’s the only even cosmetically pluralistic society in the region, (well, what’s left of Lebanon might be close…) they’re certainly the only government in the region that can change its government and policies without first holding a civil war.

    Ruvy’s too extreme in a lot of his views, but he’s dead right about the threats his nation is facing, both from announced enemies, and those that are not announced-such as the enemies of israel that have the ear of the last three U.S. Presidents, or the enemies filling the governments in Europe (a situation that has gone on considerably longer-how else to explain a former SS officer being placed in the Holy See or another being a director-general of the United Nations, the first currently and the second not thirty years prior?)

    You should maybe consider that Jews in most of the world, are treated like African Americans were treated in Mississippi when you were a youngster, and adjust your judgements and perspective accordingly-the only serious difference is that Israeli Jews (and non-Jews) have the capacity and will to resist the threats surrounding them.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    Unless the flotilla was prominently displaying the Red Cross or Red Crescent, I’m not actually convinced that the boarding was illegal.

    Israel considers itself – with a great deal of justification – to be at war, and as such is perfectly entitled to take appropriate military action against perceived seaborne threats, even in international waters.

    As to whether this particular action was appropriate, it sounds as if it started out that way. I reckon some twit on one of the boats decided to be a hero, mob rule took over and the Israeli commander lost control of the situation.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, Dreadful. I bet they’ll display it next time around; do you think that would stop the Israelis.

    Anyways, that’s a lame argument. I think. The Israelis knew all along what it was about.

    Come to think of it, I like the Red Crescent idea – quite befitting the old Ottoman Empire and the aspiring Turks.

    So I say, let’s bring it on and resolve the Middle East debacle once and for all.

  • Les Slater

    The idea that Israel is, or ever was, a safe haven for Jews is a complete fraud. Its raison d’être is nothing more than a distraction. A distraction of the Arab masses from the reactionary sheikdoms, emirates, kings and the like, who brutally rule the lands atop the oil fields. Similar to the puppet Shah in Tehran.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    With US blessings. of course, because we surely don’t want to see those oil fields nationalized, like in Venezuela.

  • Les Slater

    It’s an intentional provocation. Don’t be too surprised by the reaction to it. Imperialism wants the reaction to be reactionary. Suits their purposes to a tee.

  • Les Slater

    I’m heading off to join the protest at the Israeli Consulate here in Chicago.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #163 – you may be right.

    BTW, play it safe and dodge the imaginary bullets Ruvy was hinting at.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Thank you Cannonshop. As I said a long time ago on this thread, a voice of sanity. As I pointed out earlier, discrimination against Jews, murder of Jews, and attacks on Jews are met with silence, here at this site, as well as around the world. I gave as an example the banning of kosher slaughter of beef in New Zealand and other allegedly “liberal” countries. None of you non-Jews give a tinkers dam. Only when Attila the terrorist, or Attila the Turkish scum gets killed, do you even open your mouths. So, in the end, there is no really safe place where a Jew can lay his head down on his bed without worrying what the goyim, the animals, in the words of the young dark skinned lady on the bus from Eilat so many years ago, think – EXCEPT ISRAEL.

    That is fact number one. Now for fact number two. Caroline Glick, in analyzing the events of the last several days notes the following: “The reality is simple and stark. Israel is the target of a massive information war that is unprecedented in scale and scope. This war is being waged primarily by a massive consortium of the international Left and the Arab and Islamic worlds……This war against Israel is nothing new. It has been going on since the dawn of modern Zionism 150 years ago. In many ways, it is just the current iteration of the eternal war against the Jewish people.”

    In that eternal war against the Jewish people, several useful idiots have adopted the memes and lies of the Wahhabi terror cult. These people are not Jew-haters, – well not all of them; nor are they vicious or mean people – well, not all of them. But they have all swallowed lies, because like liquor in a bar, that is what there is to drink. And they all have posted comments on this comment thread. And because they have bought these lies, they are enemies of the Jewish People. Full stop.

    And that measure – the degree to which a person buys the lies of the Wahhabi terror cult – is the true measure that determines whether he or she in an enemy of the Jewish People.

    As I pointed out in the lead in to this article, Israeli politicians messed up a successful operation. Not merely this terror junket by the Turks and their brand new best buds, Hamas. They have messed up the NPT dealy jobby where we kept quiet about our nukes and so did everybody else. Because of the stupidity of the bought off traitors at the top, we may as well do what Louis Benes has recommended for years – put our nukes on the front porch and let everybody know that messing with Jews could mean becoming nuclear glass.

    Caroline Glick points out, correctly, that Israel’s reputation is in tatters. She points out, correctly, that it is not blaming the victim to say this. But she continues to drink the Koolaid that America was ever any kind of friend of the State of Israel, or of the Jewish people.

    Our first and biggest liability – aside from the traitorous Jews in exile who betray us, and the Jews all over the world who continue to display the traits of the shitbucket kike culture of the persecuted Jews of pre-war Poland, a culture of arrogance, lying, swindling and cheating – aside from these liabilities, our biggest liability is friendship with the United States of America and its resident Jews who refuse to come home to live.

    We cannot any longer afford to be connected with a poisonous culture of pornography, violence, drunkenness, and self-centeredness, and we cannot afford to be dependent on a nation whose government’s main goal for west Asia is the dimunition, weakening and eventual destruction of the our country.

    Similarly, we must break free of the sick, selfish dhimmi culture of Europe – where Arabs and Muslims gang-raping girls is hushed up, where honor killings are hushed up, where fear of Islam rules and where Europeans run away from even the veneer of the culture of civilization that once defined them.

    We will have to strike out on our own without America or Europe, using the phrase the Irish did for years before selling out to the Germans – “ourselves alone”.

    That has been a consistent theme of all my articles here dealing with Israel, and with the future of the Jewish people and the Children of Israel.

    We in Israel, have that capability. This is something I have researched since 2004. We do not need Europe or America, militarily, or economically. And the Jew-hatred in Europe and the growing Jew-hatred in America, signaled by the Jew-hater-in-Chief, BarrySoetoro/Obama, the alleged Christian, who presides over the United States presently, can help Israelis – who want just the opposite from isolation – to seek out their own company against the company of the foreign enemy.

  • zingzing

    that was a really long way of saying “nobody likes me, everybody hates me, guess i’ll go eat worms.”

  • http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/author/danmiller/ Dan(Miller)

    Here, here and here are recent articles on the Marmara incident. They make a lot of good sense to me, so they must of course be wrong.

    I’m posting only three links, because I seem to recall that’s the limit for one comment. Anyone interested in more can easily go to PowerLine’s home page.

    Dan(Miller)

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    How many times have I backed you up and pointed out to others the reasons why Israel acts the way it does? Quite a few times, as I recall. I’m not blindly against Israel…but neither am I blindly against the Muslims.

    Hatred begets hatred begets hatred, Ruvy. In the eyes of the world’s Muslims all Israel did was justify everything the Wahhabis have been saying all along. All Israel did was make the Wahhabis stronger. Don’t you understand that yet? Even China now knows that while power may grow from the barrel of a gun, much more than military action is required in order to keep that power – such as diplomacy and the distasteful art of making compromises with your enemies.

    There’s a time to defend your homeland, your people. There is indeed a time for violence, a time to kill. But this wasn’t such a time, Ruvy. Israel shot itself in the foot, big time – and you’re not allowing yourself to see the gaping wound in the foot, metaphorically speaking.

    One last thing, on knowing whom to trust, to whom you should listen. My rule is this – I never, ever trust either those who always tell me I’m wrong, or those who always tell me I’m right. I have no use for human echo chambers. However, a man who has the courage to tell me both, I count as a friend.

    America hasn’t been your friend – but not because we’ve opposed you, but because we’ve backed you up nearly every time…even when you’re wrong.

    Ruvy, from your “nothing done in the defense of Israel can ever be wrong” attitude, it’s obvious that you’re stuck in an echo chamber. There is a time for all things…even peace with those whom you hate, and who hate you. There’s also a time to break free of the echo chamber and realize that Israel’s been taking it too far for some time.

    That time is now, friend.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    Good to see your getting your information from a variety of sources, Dan

  • Les Slater

    The Chicago Tribune has a short article online about today’s protest: Chicago activists condemn Israel’s flotilla raid

    I estimated 500, so did police. Organizers estimated 1000. Safe to say size was in that range.

    I neither saw nor heard any blaming of Jews for what happened. I talked to quite a few people. Generally higher level of political consciousness than have seen previously.

    As the Tribune article headline indicates, this was an activist protest. Not much working class presence.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Glenn,

    Arguments won’t help. Electric shock might or a blow to the head. The man must be shaken from his delusions.

    Come to think of it, sensory deprivation might do it.

    But then again, he draws what little help he can from his would-be friends, the parenthetical Dan and the Cannonball.

    “I’ll get by with a little help from my friends,” Ruvy thinks.

    Thanks, gays, for contributing to Ruvy’s mental delinquency. With you as friends, who needs enemies?

  • Glenn Contrarian

    ‘guys’ not ‘gays’ I assume.

  • Les Slater

    Link seems to go to general Trib page so here’s the article:

    Chicago activists condemn Israel’s flotilla raid

    By SOPHIA TAREEN Associated Press Writer
    6:08 p.m. CDT, June 1, 2010

    CHICAGO
    Hundreds have gathered near Chicago’s downtown Michigan Avenue to protest Israel’s deadly raid on an aid flotilla headed to the Gaza Strip.

    Police estimated about 500 people gathered outside the Chicago offices of the Consulate General of Israel, while organizers say more than 1,000 participated.

    Many shouted “Long Live Palestine!” and “Long Live Turkey!” Others carried signs reading simply, “Free Palestine.”

    Numerous groups participated, including American Muslims for Palestine and the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network.

    Forty-year-old Aneesa Shehadeh calls the deaths of at least nine people an injustice. The Chicago business woman whose family is from Yemen says too many people are suffering in the Gaza Strip and it’s a tragedy.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Of course, slip of tongue, I suppose.

    Jet should be happy.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    For me the jury is still out on this matter. However, I did find Alan Dershowitz’s analysis quite compelling in that he argues there may be a lack of wisdom in Israel’s actions but under the rule of law the Israeli government was completely within their right. I know, you’ll say Alan’s point of view is skewed. But the facts he presents in his piece leave me even more ambivalent.

    The bottom line is that this is an Israeli action. How the international community reacts remains to be seen. That being said, right now I’m leaning toward Mr. Dershowitz’ analysis.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Les,

    What exactly is the history of Gaza strip? Wasn’t it originally bequeathed to the Palestinians as a peace gesture?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Welcome to the gay parade, Silas.

    These were international waters, weren’t they? They could have redirected the flotilla instead of boarding it. Lots of moves were available but not availed of. They decided to play from the position of power, and these are the consequence.

    Besides, you’re ignoring the all-important question – the legality of the Gaza occupation and the blockade.

    I haven’t read Dershowitz’s article yet, but I doubt he’s examining that issue.

  • Les Slater

    Roger, too tired, go to Wikipedia for general info.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Silas –

    I read the article, and while Dershowitz makes some good, cogent arguments, his argument on ‘self-defense by the Israeli soldiers’ fails miserably.

    Why? A profound lack of empathy.

    Picture this: a Muslim country has an enclave of 1.5M Jews blockaded and has maintained this blockade for well over a year. They allow food and medicine in, but that’s about it. Now there’s a Jewish convoy – armed with nothing but the knives and chains and metal bars found on ANY ship (often referred to as ‘tools’) – and they’re determined to break through the blockade to get to their fellow Jews.

    Do you really think that the Jews on those ships would give a tinker’s doggone that there are other routes to their fellow Jews? Do you really think they would care at all what the reason for the blockade may be, or whether the blockade was completely legal?

    You know very well the answer: a resounding NO.

    And here’s the real kicker – when the Jews on those unarmed ships saw heavily-armed Muslim commandos boarding their ship against their will, what would the Jews do?

    Pretty much what the crew did on the ship in question – but, if I know the Jews, they’d probably have spilt quite a bit more blood in the defense of their ship (that’s a compliment, btw). Remember Mosada…for the Jews certainly do.

    No, the ‘self-defense’ argument fails the BS test by a country mile.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I’ll look it up. Anyway, I’m glad you escaped unscathed.

    You must be living near Chicago to make this trip on such a short notice.

  • Les Slater

    “Anyway, I’m glad you escaped unscathed.”

    No danger that I could sense.

    “You must be living near Chicago to make this trip on such a short notice.”

    How about, in Chicago. Took Orange Line to Lake and State (in the loop) and walked a few blocks to the Israeli Consulate on Wacker and Michigan.

  • Les Slater

    I can see the CTA – Orange Line 35/Archer stop from my bedroom window. About a two minute walk.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Shoot, Les. I might visit you one day if I remain in KY for the remainder of the year.

    It’s only an eight-hour drive at most, I figure.

  • Les Slater

    Sure, you’re welcome.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I’m already salivating about University of Chicago. Fuck, I might even relocate if I don’t accepted to Sorbonne or College de France.

    Do they have a decent program in social studies, especially in Continental philosophy? They’re used to. For example, George Herbert Meade is a native son.

    From what I hear, Northwestern may be at the cutting edge. I want the best minds I can possibly find. I want to challenge them and be challenged.

  • Les Slater

    Chicago has scholars of the highest caliber. I bumped into one today at the demo. He spent months, in Belgium I believe, studying Marx’s actual manuscripts. He invited me to a presentation and discussion on Monday entitled “Beyond Post-Marx Marxism: Beginning Anew”. Not quite my cup of tea but may go anyway.

  • Les Slater

    That’s how we’ll time stamp package delivery after the revolution.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    You ought to, methinks. What have you got to lose?

    Anyway, I’m glad I’m not totally off.

    We’ll talk about it some more when the time is ripe.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Hiya Les :-)

    Did you get a chance to go to the protest today?

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Glenn, you’re expanding my knowledge and I thank you for the effort. See, what I can’t reconcile is the Cuban blockade. Didn’t we do that in international waters? And, if that is the case, does our government have the moral authority to say to Netanyahu, “do as we say and not what we do”? I know it’s a stretch but I think of the Gulf of Tonkin and Cuba. Granted it is comparing apples and fava beans.

    Glenn, I totally get where Ruvy is coming from. And I think if you look at his history and personal religious journey, it’s not so difficult to understand his view. If I were in his shoes, I may react similarly. I don’t have Ruvy’s devout faith – I wish I did insofar as having faith in some Divine Plan. If one were to examine the fundamental teachings and old writings before the “boutique Jews” took over, one sees a very scientific explanation for Creation and the Divine Cause. The story of the “Divine Spark” is one that comes to mind. But that is all for another thread – when we are in the mood to debate the Divine vs. the Scientific.

    Again, it goes back to repeating history for every generation. It’s what the children in the Middle East are taught in mosques, temples and schools. The fight goes on, the religious divides endure and their animosity shall never die.

    P.S. I’d like to thank the late Senator Ted Kennedy for the twist on words. May he rest in peace.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Cindy,

    I’m about to send you a draft of the second chapter. However, I don’t want to discuss anything under the sun, barring personal emergency, before you read it.

    Is it a deal?

  • Les Slater

    Cindy, 188 – See 169 and 171. 169 may have broken link but AP article is in 171.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Thanks, Les. Good info to hear. I wish it was more, but I really think it will be…

    No jobs, destruction of environment, states blatantly killing people…

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    190 – No problem Roger. It is a deal. :-)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Just done it, Cindy. But here’s a catch. You may hate me for it, but it’s a simultaneous dispatch to you, Les and Mark Eden.

    I just hope I’ve haven’t overstepped.

    Don’t forget, for all my contrariness, I’m a peacemaker at heart.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    Please take a look at comment #178, and I’d like your take on it. Please don’t divert, but switch places between the Muslims on the ship and the Jewish commandos coming to take control of the ship. Given the exact same situation in reverse, would the Jews have really acted any differently if it were their ship and the Arab commandos were coming to take the ships over?

  • Cannonshop

    #173 are you kidding? Jet would be Deeply offended to be compared to the likes of me… You should immediately apologize to him for that…(and the follow-up.)

    There are very few things I can agree with Ruvy on-one of them, is the level of threat Israel’s under, will be under tomorrow, and has been under since its inception in 1948, as well as the spinelessness of their supposed ‘allies’ in the west. Where he’s wrong, is in going total bunker mentality-there are gentiles out here who know the situation and are not the enemies of his people…because we know what’s going on, what’s at stake, and what’s happened in the past when THAT has been ignored as being ‘inconvenient.’

    One of the things Ruvy (and most of our media folk) refuse to understand, is that the international Left has always been anti-semitic, in spite of who’s written their most cherished works-Marx may have been a jew, but his biggest fans worked hand-in-glove to exterminate his people, and supported those who would do the same.

    Like I said before, the American Left had no problem with Hitler until he attacked Stalin, who had no problems at all running a slightly watered down re-peat of the “Final Solution” in Russia after the war, and the soviets funded, armed and sponsored the invasions of 1956, 1967, and 1973, and their apologists in the U.S. took up the banner of supporting radical islam well before the Palestinian Jew-killing-team debuted at the Olympics.

    It didn’t take the Apologists long to rush forward to condemn the israeli response to THAT, either.

  • Les Slater

    “…the American Left had no problem with Hitler until he attacked Stalin…”

    This is not true at all. The real sequence of events was that the left in general saw Hitler as the enemy of the working class, socialism and peace. At the time of the Stalin/Hitler pact in 1939, the Communist Party of the USSR did an about face and declared Hitler to be an ally. This line was pushed worldwide in all Stalinist parties. This caused major crisis in at least the U.S. Communist Party where many defected. Groups associated with Trotsky’s Left Opposition like the grouping around the Socialist Appeal paper in the U.S. gained considerably from these defections.

    When Germany invaded the USSR in 1941 Stalin and the world Stalinst parties abruptly did another about face but had lost much credibility in the process.

  • http://www.leavingthelandofwoo.com Bob Lloyd

    Good to see the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network involved in the protest in Chicago. It’s a common smoke-screen that Israel is in fact a Jewish state when the reality is that it isn’t – it’s a secular military state which uses Jewish ethnicity to bolster a racist land grab.

    As far as orthodox Jews are concerned, observing the 613 rules of Jewish conduct is enough to give you Jewish ethnicity. The problem for the Israeli right is that large numbers of its citizens are secular and don’t follow those 613 rules at all. So they don’t get the Jewish ethnicity offered by observance of the Jewish religion. Why then should they have more ethnic rights than Arab Israelis? That’s the conundrum for those who want to strengthen the apartheid legislation, how to exclude the Arabs but keep in the secular self-proclaimed Jews.

    And of course, the demographic clock is ticking since Arab families are generally larger than Jewish families. That’s why they are so desperate to push out Arab families.

    And it’s difficult to justify acting on a religious claim that the land was granted to Jews by god when most of them don’t worship that god, even by observance of the rules of their own religion.

    The more you investigate this state, the more odious the Zionist right is shown to be. Is it any wonder that those who represent the Jewish religion are disgusted by the murderous antics of the Zionists?

  • http://www.leavingthelandofwoo.com Bob Lloyd

    #196
    [the international Left has always been anti-semitic]

    It’s a popular slur to say this but the truth is that the international left has always been anti-Zionist. Attacking the Israeli state for its racism, its apartheid system, its violent aggression against the Palestinians, its nuclear program, its dismissal of UN resolutions, etc, is not in any way anti-semitic.

    The international left has a good record in fighting anti-semitism and racism, and it has been pretty consistently anti-Zionist.

    Sorry, but I can’t let you get away with that disgraceful slur.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Cannonshop,

    Where he’s wrong, is in going total bunker mentality-there; are gentiles out here who know the situation and are not the enemies of his people…because we know what’s going on, what’s at stake, and what’s happened in the past when THAT has been ignored as being ‘inconvenient.’

    Reread my comment and my definition. Repeated for clarity.

    In that eternal war against the Jewish people, several useful idiots have adopted the memes and lies of the Wahhabi terror cult. These people are not Jew-haters – well not all of them; nor are they vicious or mean people – well, not all of them. But they have all swallowed lies, because like liquor in a bar, that is what there is to drink. And they all have posted comments on this comment thread. And because they have bought these lies, they are enemies of the Jewish People. Full stop.

    And that measure – the degree to which a person buys the lies of the Wahhabi terror cult – is the true measure that determines whether he or she in an enemy of the Jewish People.

    You don’t swallow the lies of the Wahhabi terror cult. Neither does Dan Miller, nor Silas Kain. Everyone else commenting here has swallowed them, and used them to bolster their specious arguments.

    You are one of those non-Jews who is not an enemy of the Jewish People on this site. And there are millions of others like you. But you wield no power on the scenes of the countries where you live.

    Since the likes of trash like Hamas can put together international coalitions of 189 regimes or more, we here are effectively alone. And this is exactly what the Torah indicated – that the Children of Israel would be reckoned apart from mankind.

    As for the “international left”, they have always been infested with Jew-hatred. I’ve been well aware of that. Even the Jewish Bundists my father, z”l, told me about, who ravaged Poland in the chaos that came immediately before and after the declaration of the Polish Republic in 1919 and the war with the Bolsheviks that followed on immediately, were anti-Zionist in their orientation and in the ’20s and ’30s helped Stalin destroy the Jewish communal institutions in the Soviet Union – until Stalin, a Jew-hater, had them killed off, one by one. There is justice in G-d’s world.

    Jews running away from the shitbucket culture of pre-war Poland were all too happy to embrace an “international revolution” so as to get away from the stink of their own Jewishness. And their American and “post-zionist” counterparts today are no better and no different.

    The Jews running away from their shitbucket culture (not all of them are post zionist traitors – some are real patriots) are running into the blunt facts recited in the Torah – that the Children of Israel will be reckoned alone among mankind – and it has scared the living shit out of them.

    Dershowitz dances around, defending his people because he knows they are right, but eschewing aliya because he doesn’t want to give up the status he thinks he has in America. This means that he has to find some reason that America should support Israel – if only to salve his own guilty conscience for not coming home. But Alan Dershowitz was raised in a home where the Torah was taught every week, as it has been in mine. He knows the truth I refer to, and cannot face it. The same is true for the secular Jews running the country here, Netanyahu, Levaiev, Peres, (Avigdor) Lieberman, Livni, Barak and all the rest. They know the truth, but cannot face it.

    The truth is: ISRAEL IS ALONE.

    That is not a bunker mentality: that is the simple recognition of the facts as they stand on the ground. And all of the attempts of the secular Israeli régime to escape this reality will fail. They failed in the past, and they will fail again.

    Until the secular régime here recognizes that Israel is alone, and it is meant to be alone, they will fail in their efforts at foreign policy.

    As for the blockade of Gaza, it is a simple issue of black-letter law. Gaza is de-facto, a hostile régime to Israel, and its bombardment of our country constitutes acts of war. Occupation shmoccupation! We have every right to go in and level the place to the ground, driving all of its residents to bake in the deserts of Sinal permanently, and killing all the resisters. But there is no reason to. The cost in soldiers, equipment, etc., is not worth the gain.

    Were it me, I’d starve the bastards out until they overthrew the terrorist overlords and sued (on hands and knees) for peace. Another possibility is the scorched earth campaign I mentioned earlier, 100 meters of scorched earth and destruction for each and every rocket or missile launched. That looks a lot more humane, in that the residents are not being starved out and the whiners who support them (and their honor killings, suppression of freedom, execution of gays, etc.) would not be able to whine about violations of international law. The end result, the residents overthrowing the terrorist overlords, is the desired result.

    But the bought out traitors in Jerusalem do not have the nerve or the guts to do this. So they impose a “blockade”, hoping that the goyim, the animals overseas, won’t scream too loud. But they do anyway, as we see in so many comments in this comment thread.

    NU?

    This action against the Turks, who tried to bully their way past this blockade, is a simple police action – nothing more.

    If the enemies of the Jewish People who defend Hamas and whine incessantly about whether there should or shouldn’t be a Jewish state can’t handle that, too bad. They know which hole they can stick their heads in. Their self-righteous finger-wagging is disgusting, and would make me vomit – but I have more important things to do than regurgitate my breakfast for the sake of idiots and fools.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Bob Lloyd’s arguments in comment #199 are based on his colossal ignorance, both of Jewish Law and the demographics of this country. While the majority of us are not dati, that is to say fully observant of the mitzvot in the Torah, the vast majority (80%) of us are traditional, in that we recognize an observe and awful lot of them.

    But no matter. Observance of the mitzvot does not get you Jewishness. Being the child of a Jewish mother gets you Jewish nationality. Even completely secular anti-clerical Jews are still Jews, according to the definition of Jewish law.

    Mr. Lloyd, WE TELL YOU WHO IS A JEW – NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND. Therefore, WE DEFINE WHAT IS A JEWISH STATE – NOT YOU. Full stop.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Sorry – that was referring to comment #198. His comments in #199 indicate his unwillingness to recognize the centrality of Israel in Jewish life and destiny. The Jews who do the same are traitors, and are destined to die at the Hand of G-d – or scared shitless into changing their minds. I cannot comment on Mr. Lloyd himself, as I do not know his religious up-bringing. But from his words here, he is an enemy of the Jewish People, as I defined it earlier.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Now, let’s show you all why I join that young brown skinned girl on the bus from Eilat to Jerusalem in the spring of 1973, in saying kol goyim Hayot – all goyim are animals. The shoe fits – even if it hurts.

    From Leon deWinter’s article “Dead Muslims? Only Wake the EU and UN if Jews Did It”

    “Last Friday in Lahore, Pakistan, 93 people were killed by Islamists. Why didn’t we hear from the EU and UN?

    Because there were no Jews involved.

    Al Jazeera reported that on one of the boats heading for Gaza, “activists” were singing “Khaybar, Khaybar, oh Jews, Muhammed’s army will return.” What do these words mean?

    In 629, Mohammed had all the Jews from Khaybar killed — including all women and children, except for one beautiful woman who he kept as a sex servant. When the people on the Turkish boat sang “Khaybar, Khaybar,” they were calling for the death of the Jews.

    Why didn’t the EU and UN protest against this song?

    Well …

    On May 31, exactly the same day as the Gaza confrontation, “unknown gunmen” stormed a hospital in Lahore, Pakistan, and killed an unknown number of people. Why didn’t we hear from the EU and UN about this?

    Because there were no Jews involved.

    Grow up, zing, Les, Roger, Glenn, Chris, Bob and the rest of you. If this is the hypocritical trash you want your names associated with, don’t complain when I call you out as hypocrites. If the shoe of the goyisher animal fits, don’t whine if it appears on your feet.

  • Les Slater

    “Grow up, zing, Les, Roger, Glenn, Chris, Bob and the rest of you. If this is the hypocritical trash you want your names associated with…”

    My 159:
    “The idea that Israel is, or ever was, a safe haven for Jews is a complete fraud. Its raison d’être is nothing more than a distraction. A distraction of the Arab masses from the reactionary sheikdoms, emirates, kings and the like, who brutally rule the lands atop the oil fields. Similar to the puppet Shah in Tehran.”

    And especially, 161:
    “It [Israel] is an intentional provocation. Don’t be too surprised by the reaction to it. Imperialism wants the reaction to be reactionary. Suits their purposes to a tee.”

    This reaction suits your propaganda to a tee. Just another dupe of U.S. imperialism.

  • Les Slater

    Of a certain flavor, of course.

  • Les Slater

    And… the Jew-hating imperialists want the world to hate Jews. The imperialists are a lot smarter than you Ruvy. You take the bait and run with it.

  • http://www.leavingthelandofwoo.com Bob Lloyd

    #201
    Ruvy, the problem with the collective “you” telling the collective “us” who are to be counted as Jews is that the collective “you” don’t agree. Orthodox Jews claim that observation of the religion is sufficient, others claim there’s a biological mother link. They don’t all agree about the legitimacy of children born of mixed marriages either.

    This conflation of ethnicity with religion causes a lot of confusion clearly inside Israel as well and although anyone, such as you Ruvy, can adopt a dogmatic position, the very fact that it is not consistently agreed within Israel indicates there’s a problem with it.

    There’s also a problem with people who convert to Judaism. For the orthodox, the conversion and observation of the strictures of the religion is sufficient to gain Jewish ethnicity, but not for some of the “majority” who think they are “traditional” but don’t observe the same rules.

    All of which makes any claim that the Israeli state represents the Jewish religion somewhat suspect. I can appreciate Ruvy, that you want to plug the case for one particular sectarian interpretation of this broad church but Israel being composed of all the rest as well, it’s hard to see how your view of the religious nature of Israel is consistent with the facts.

    It looks more and more as though you don’t put forward anything like a representative view of the religious nature of the Israeli state. Rather, the contradictions of conflating ethnicity with religion are only too apparent, not least from your sectarian interpretation.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    I asked if you’d please address comment #178. If the situation were reversed in every respect, if it were the Jews who were sending in an aid flotilla to a Jewish enclave with 1.5M inhabitants that had been blockaded by the Arabs for more than a year, would the Jews have only defended their ships with knives, metal bars, and chains (also known on board ship as ‘tools’)? Or would the Jews, in response to seeing heavily-armed Arab commandos coming to take control of the ship, respond with much greater force than what the Israeli commandos fired back at in ‘self-defense’?

    I’m really looking forward to your reply.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    C-shop –

    So now it’s the “international Left” that “had no problem” with Hitler before WWII? By ‘Left’, I’m assuming you mean those who were closer to communism than to democracy, and the communists certainly hated Hitler.

    The communists were indeed anti-semitic…but it’s the “had no problem with Hitler” misconception of yours with which I must take issue.

    I suggest you go back and read the history books. There was a “German American Bund” group, but that was about the only pro-Nazi group in America at the time…and they were profoundly anti-communist, among other things.

    Furthermore, perhaps the most famous American anti-semite before WWII was Henry Ford – who first ran for president as a Republican in 1916, then for senator as a Democrat in 1918…but if you’ll read his Wikipedia bio, particularly his strongly anti-union views, his “marketplace uber alles” mentality (my term, but it fits), and his ardent opposition of America’s entry into WWI or WWII (he strongly disliked FDR)…

    …it becomes obvious that Henry Ford was an early Libertarian.

    C-shop, I really don’t think you’re going to find much that proves your claim that the international Left “had no problem” with Hitler.

    And there’s more. When Hitler was elected Chancellor in 1933 (or was it ’32?), during his acceptance speech in the Reichstag, he turned to the German Socialist Party members and said, “I have no further need of you.” You see, it was through parliamentarian maneuver and political coalition that Hitler rose to chancellorship – and the moment he gripped the reins of power, he chucked the socialists overboard.

    But the communists hated him already, because in Mein Kampf, Hitler had already stated that the Lebensraum that the German people ‘needed’ would be found in the East, and the book’s publication came less than two decades after the last German invasion of Russia.

    C-shop, your association of the “international Left” with Hitler is about as accurate as the accusations by today’s conservatives against Obama where they him “Fascist” and “Socialist”, all the while never apparently grokking that the two are diametrically-opposed concepts.

  • Les Slater

    Glen, C-shop’s actual statement referred to American Left not international Left:

    “…the American Left had no problem with Hitler until he attacked Stalin…”

    There’s actually a grain of truth there. Just a grain however. From August 1939 to the June 1941 German invasion, less than two years, there was a non aggression pact between Stalin and Hitler. During that time all Stalinist parties were ordered to halt all criticism of Hitler or his policies. In the U.S. this line was carried out by the U.S. Communist Party.

    Much of the rank and file could not stomach this and some just dropped out. Some joined other groups that never dropped their opposition to Hitler and his policies.

    It is interesting to note that after the German invasion, the U.S. party switched to slavish allegiance to Roosevelt.

  • Ruvy

    Bob,

    The only collective “us” I’m referring to here is known as halakha. The Ministry of Interior here will accept a looser standard for citizenship, but that is not the issue. The basic issue is the religious orientation of the woman giving birth at the time she gives birth.

    The problems with conversions come with one group of rabbis accepting something and another group not, but that is not your business. Bottom line: WE TELL YOU WHO IS A JEW, NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND and therefore, WE DEFINE WHAT COMPRISES A JEWISH STATE, NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND. Deal with it.

  • Ruvy

    A final note for Mr. Lloyd. If the Jewish State “represented” the Jewish religion, it would indeed be a theocracy, which it is not. This country is not a democracy, but it is not a dictatorship, or a theocracy. The dominant religion here is Judaism, and the dominant culture is a Jewish culture, a combine of the many cultures brought home from exile. But this is not some Jewish version of Vatican City, so diabuse yourself of the false analogies. False analogies only lead to false reasoning, and your arguments are full of false reasoning as it is, without adding another layer to confuse yourself….

  • Ruvy

    And Glenn, your hypothetical is based on lies. Therefore it is not worth a response, for the same kind of reasons I explained to Mr. Lloyd, above.

    And now, since I’m in an internet cafe in the Central Bus Station, I must leave you. One never knows when the next suspicious package liable to blow up may be found.

  • Les Slater

    Interesting exchange between Bob and Ruvy. My take? Ruvy wins.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    More and more I’m coming to appreciate Les’ position that the enmity in the Middle East is perpetuated by the imperialist powers. It serves US interests just fine, not to mention the interests of the Middle Eastern despots, for Israel to serve as a target. It’s one sure way of diverting the attention of the oppressed peoples living in those lands – away from the despots and their despotic rules.

    Which leads to the inevitable conclusion. If US were really interested in peace in the Middle East, it would have happened years ago. But their interest is to keep the people divided.

  • http://www.leavingthelandofwoo.com Bob Lloyd

    #211
    [The problems with conversions come with one group of rabbis accepting something and another group not, but that is not your business. Bottom line: WE TELL YOU WHO IS A JEW, NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND and therefore, WE DEFINE WHAT COMPRISES A JEWISH STATE, NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND. Deal with it.]

    Sorry Ruvy, that just doesn’t cut it. Since your argument about what constitutes a jew is inconsistent with other equally, if not more, credible sources, you, that is you personally, are in no position to lay down any kind of law on the matter. Even if you shout and insist and throw an aggressive tantrum, it doesn’t make your argument any more credible.

    Spit the dummy if you want to, but YOU still have to deal with it, as most people on this forum have been very calmy trying to tell you.

    And it wouldn’t be anyone else’s business if Israel was a reasonable country, respecting international law, dealing fairly with its own population. But it’s not, is it? That makes it the business of the international community.

    And you posting such a rabid and prejudiced article on BC makes it our business too – that’s why you did it, isn’t it? If you don’t want the discussion, don’t post the article. Deal with it…

  • http://www.leavingthelandofwoo.com Bob Lloyd

    #211
    One more point Ruvy, halakha being the system of religious law surely is interpreted by many different authorities, so different communities will have a different view of what constitutes the law. Which supports exactly what I said. Even quoting your version of halakha won’t necessarily be representative of or supported by others.

    Once again then, who exactly constitutes a jew in the eyes of the religion is debatable especially within the religion itself.

    The notion of the Israeli state being a theocracy is an interesting one. Orthodox Jews complain that the state is being worshipped instead of god. The secularists certainly place the interests of the state over religion so I agree it’s not a theocracy – but I never said or implied it was.

    But claiming that the state interests are the same as the interests of Judaism is unsustainable. That’s the confusion generated by talking about a Jewish state rather than the Israeli state. We should make the distinction so that Judaism is not annexed to the domestic and foreign policy of the Israeli military state.

  • Les Slater

    “But claiming that the state interests are the same as the interests of Judaism is unsustainable.”

    I don’t believe that’s Ruvy’s position. He certainly believes that Israel SHOULD act in accordance with the Will of God but has NO illusions that that is the current reality.

  • zingzing

    ruvy: “And Glenn, your hypothetical is based on lies. Therefore it is not worth a response…”

    aww, what a big ol pussy cat! fat pussy cat! big fat pussy puss-puss! ya wanna me rub on your big fat pussy belly pussy cat? yesh yesh yesh, u wuv that, big pussy cat. kitteh. puss-puss. you can’t answer the question because you’re a big fat drooling little pussy cat aren’t you? aren’t you? oh my goodness, yes you are! yes you are!

  • zingzing

    les, how could anyone tell if they were (acting in accordance with the will of god)? no one has any way of really knowing that, so chances are about equal, no matter what you do. and if god does exist, he’s obviously somewhat perverse, so… trying to figure out what he thinks like is going to be very difficult. i’d say it’s best not to trouble yourself over such impossible tasks.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Ruvy’s idea as to the will of God: the scriptures.

    Of course Ruvy’s intepretaton of it is somewhat questionable: Kill baby, kill.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Bob,

    Israel is the Jewish State. This is not an assertion of religious identification, it is an assertion of national identification. As I said very plainly, this is not a theocracy, or a democracy or a dictatorship.

    The simplest definition of the Israeli government is “smalltime Stalinist shleppocracy”, a place that the leaders wish they could run as a dictatorship, but don’t because they need to look like “sort of” (k’ilu in Hebrew) a democracy. The most common term on Hebrew radio, aside from “buy this on sale”, is dimokratia yisraelit – Israeli democracy. And I laugh with derision every time I hear it. It is a nation where the secret police has excessive powers but uses them in a very tendentious and inconsistent way (I’m just not a big enough threat to them – yet). It is a place where law is enforced according to which group one belongs to – in other words, there is no equal application of the law, which is the acid test of a democratic regime. It is a place where most of the media is bigoted to favor a group of families who are the real masters of the economy. And when not favoring this small group of families, the media and business tend to favor the Ashkenazi elite in Tel Aviv – who are mostly scum who imitate slavishly America.

    This has little to do with the halakhic definition of who is a Jew. The definition I have set down is not my definition, it is the standard definition – end of story. I’m not laying down any laws, I’m telling you the standard – like 100 pence = 1 pound sterling. I’m not concerned with the arguments the rabbis have. They are not my problem. And they are not your business – unless you know someone you feel is being screwed over by the Rabbinate here. But that is not germane to this article or this comment thread – or your alleged arguments.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    And Glenn, your hypothetical is based on lies. Therefore it is not worth a response, for the same kind of reasons I explained to Mr. Lloyd, above.

    Yeah, based on lies. Like the Jews have never, ever been confined to a certain geographical area with access to and from restricted by those more powerful than they.

    As I said to Silas concerning an article by Alan Dershowitz concerning the incident, Dershowitz’ problem is a profound lack of empathy.

    The same thing applies to you. If the situation had been reversed, if it was an enclave of 1.5M Jews blockaded by Arabs, and if the Jews were sending in an aid convoy to help their fellow Jews, the Jews on the ships would have responded at least as violently as those on board the ships. AND YOU KNOW IT.

    It takes guts to honestly answer tough questions, Ruvy…and it takes a certain amount of self-awareness to realize that attempts to dodge (or an outright refusal to answer) a tough question are quite transparent to most people.

    We’re all human, Ruvy. Every nation does something badly wrong sometimes. Just as America committed great wrongs with Iraq, and with torture and Gitmo, Israel is continuing a great wrong with the blockade, with the imprisonment of Palestinian minors, and with the murder of innocents on board the ship…and the sooner you wake up and realize that Israel is just as capable of shamefully screwing up as any other nation, the sooner you can begin to fix the problem. But you have to acknowledge the problem BEFORE you begin to fix it.

    Like I said, we’re all human – including you.

    Oh, by the way – here’s some photographs of the stuff on the ships that you seem to think was going to aid Hamas and al-Qaeda.

    Man, but that stuffed Pikachu doll looks awful threatening. So do the wheelchairs and baby cribs and children’s story books….

    But I forget – since it’s from an al-Jazeera site, it must be lies, all lies, because the Muslims never ever tell the truth, they always lie, and everything that’s said against Israel (even by other Jews) is always a lie, and anyone who says anything against Israel is automatically cursed.

    You have my pity, Ruvy. You really do.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    As I told you, Glenn, anyone who buys the trash of the Wahhabi – however it is presented and served up to look good – is an enemy of the Jewish People. That is what you are, Glenn. Not a Jew-hater, not a mean or vicious person – but a useful idiot. And you are blinded by your own prejudices and are unable to hold Muslims liable for far worse than boarding a ship intent on violating Israeli sovereignty.

    End of discussion.

  • doug m

    I find it interesting that Arthur C Clarke made a connection between religion amd mental illness without needing to see the mad ramblings within this thread.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    “Last Friday in Lahore, Pakistan, 93 people were killed by Islamists. Why didn’t we hear from the EU and UN?

    Because there were no Jews involved.”

    No, because the attacks were committed in Pakistan by Pakistanis against Pakistanis. It’s not a matter for the UN or the EU.

    Monday’s incident took place in international waters, involved nationals from several countries including members of the EU, and is claimed (not that I agree with the claim) to be in violation of international law and the Law of the Sea.

    That makes it the business of both organisations.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ruvy –

    And yet you still refused to answer the question.

    See, that’s the thing – when dealing with intelligent people: one can make certain assumptions about what will be understood by the others. This takes the form not only of fluency of language, but of complexity (or simplicity) of concepts and moralities. You know precisely the accuracy and pertinence of the question I posed to you.

    That’s why I feel I can say with confidence that you know the answer, that you know that the situation I presented to you is irrefutable (as does everyone else)…and you know that the obvious (and correct) answer will expose the wrongness of the actions of the Israeli government and its armed forces.

    That’s why you won’t answer…and that’s why you have my pity. To paraphrase our friendly neighborhood Spider-Man, “With great religious fervor comes great insecurity.” I simply hope that you take this not as an insult, but as a sincere rebuke from a friend…for that’s certainly how it’s meant.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Understand, Ruvy, I haven’t the slightest intention to undermine your faith, but you surely must realize your stance against everyone else: My way or the highway. And the Wahhabi serves as an umbrella term to lump all Jew-haters, as well as the more naive ones, such as Glenn, so you say, who fall victim to the Wahhabi propaganda.

    I can’t dispute with you the teachings of your Scriptures. I’m not an expert, you take yourself for an expert, and I’m certain there are others who are more knowledgeable and more attuned to the word of God that you are. But if my memory serves me correctly, the Jews were given explicit instructions to convert the pagans, the Canaanites, to the Hebrew God.
    Do you really suppose now that the kind of policy you’re advocating, or the policy of the Israeli government with respect to its neighbors – a policy you certainly approve of – fulfills the stated purpose? Are all Palestinians or the inhabitants of the Gaza strip intent on Israel’s destruction?

    I seriously doubt it. And if they are, it can certainly be attributed to Israel’s policy with this insane blockade. Is this the way of winning the people to your side, or have you given up on the stated purpose?

    Open the frickin’ borders. Allow for free travel and exchange and participation in common life. Drawing fences only estranges peoples, makes them suspicious and distrustful. Borders make for enemies, eliminating them creates a possibility for new kind of life.

    But no, it seems you’re pushing for final resolution (as supposedly prophesied in the ancient texts), for the coming of the Messiah to inaugurate a new age. But not only are you erring in trying to outguess your God. You also posit yourself as being his instrument, as knowing his will. That’s a highly presumptuous if not a delusional stance. What makes you know when and where?

    If you truly have faith in the prophesies of the final days, you should know it’s going to come about with or without your effort. But by your very stance, you’re the one who is undermining your faith. You are not anyone’s instrument, Ruvy, except in your fertile imagination. So why don’t you just let the events unfold as they surely will, with or without your input? That’s the way of faith, Ruvy, allowing your God to work through people, not people trying to outguess their God.

    And BTW, you haven’t responded to Einstein’s views on the Jewish state (as per earlier link). I’d be interested to hear your reaction.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Roger,

    I learned a long time ago – in law school – about hypotheticals, and the dangers they pose. Glenn set up a hypothetical based on lies, and I have enough brains to sniff out a trap when it’s set.

    I never became a lawyer. I thank G-d I didn’t. At the time, I did not have the moral stamina to stand up to all the temptations that lawyers are exposed to. I would have been a sleazy shyster hating himself so much he would have driven himself to an early death. But I’m not, and I now have the moral stamina to stand up and tell the truth. Even when it hurts. And a lot of the time, the truth hurts a lot. I usually do not enjoy writing the articles I do here.

    Now, to your comments.

    1. It was not the duty of the Children of Israel to convert Canaanites to any religion. They were to kill them, and drive them out of the Land of Israel. Don’t believe me. Read the Bible. If you are too arrogant to, that isn’t my problem.

    I’m not an expert – but I know how to read. Try it sometime.

    2. Glenn is not a Jew-hater. Go read what I have to say, and read my definitions again. If you are too arrogant to, that is not my problem. Glenn may be a useful idiot of the Wahhabi, but he is a man of good character who honestly cares about what he writes and who is passionate about his ideas. I would never slime the man by insulting him, calling him a Jew-hater. You might – in fact, you did, while trying to slime me in the process. That says more about you than me.

    3. Like Glenn, I like to learn new things. And recently, I learned a couple of new things about my neighbors here. So, there will be an article about them, and what I learned. And that is all I will say on that matter.

    4. We are all servants of G-d. Obama is doing G-d’s work. Even those scummy bastards, Hitler, Stalin and Mao, did G-d’s work. You are doing G-d’s work, and Chris Rose, militant atheist that he is, is also doing G-d’s work. None of us have a choice in the matter. We are all tools in His Hands. We do His work because we are all His creation. Whether you can realize that or not is not up to me. And it is not my problem.

    5. You were right. For a while, I was second-guessing G-d with the scenarios I wrote. And the lesson I had to learn (from all of them not coming out as I wrote them) was not to second-guess G-d. I haven’t been second-guessing any Deity lately. Go check out my articles. No scenarios. Not a single one since April 2009 when I turned out to be wrong about the Piggy Flu. So stick your arrogance where the sun don’t shine, Roger. You are nowhere near as smart as you imagine yourself to be.

    6. I’m not “pushing for a final solution”, I’m pushing for what I believe should be done. If many of the things I suggest are done, the evil prophecies of the Bible will not occur. And that is what I do hope for. And that is the way of the Jewish faith – something you understand nothing about at all.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    And Roger, Einstein was a physicist – not a politician or a theologian. And he was a Jew who insisted on remaining in exile, even though he was invited to become president here by David ben-Gurion. That tells me more about his views than I really want to know.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Cindy,

    I really feel bad about your husband and the situation the two of you have been cornered in. Thank you for remembering my comments. I hope that things may have improved for you both….

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I don’t know about Jewish faith, Ruvy. Is that supposed to be any different from faith?

    And it wasn’t arrogance on my part that made me say what I said. How do you infer that? Simply because someone poses a question that it’s not to your liking? That’s a rather poor criterion. Also, nowhere did I suggest that Glenn was a Jew hater.

    Let’s face it. You guys are in a mess. I’ve read the brief history of the Gaza Strip in the Wiki. None of it makes any sense.

    All I’m contending, there’s got to be a better way. If Hamas is your enemy, talk to the suckers. You don’t need US interference to be able to tend to your own self-interests. US is governed by its own interests, both you and I know it. They talk a good talk but they mean no good.

    Again, I’m going to insist that putting up borders between peoples is not a solution. Communication is.

    Where is the arrogance in that?

  • John Wilson

    Looks like the IDF shot themselves in the foot …. again.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Roger –

    Ruvy and I had a long discussion about religion once, and he showed me (IIRC) that Jews are not to hate each other, but are not prohibited from hating those who are not Jews. I don’t think it goes so far as some sects of Islam which (if I understand it correctly) believe that hate is not only allowed but can even be considered holy.

    This is radically different from what Jesus teaches in the New Testament of the Bible…but if one dismisses the NT (which is what Judaism does, I think), then there is support for Israel’s actions from a religious viewpoint.

    That’s why, although I cannot help but speak on the moral side of the issue, I’ve tried to use a more practical argument, to show Ruvy how disadvantageous Israel’s actions are in the modern world…and how Israel’s actions will only result in greater danger for Israel herself.

    He’s never called me a Jew-hater – in fact, as with other BC luminaries, he and I would probably enjoy a six-pack together while solving all the world’s problems in our own respective ways. I am glad, though, that whatever he thinks is the root of my perspective, at least he knows I’m sincere and that I want nothing but the best for him and his.

    On a different subject, have you considered teaching overseas?

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    he showed me (IIRC) that Jews are not to hate each other, but are not prohibited from hating those who are not Jews.

    You’re close, Glenn. The Torah talks about the Children of Israel, not Jews. There is a difference, and too many Jews are lazy thinkers in this respect, taking it for granted that only Jews are Children of Israel. That isn’t so. The Pashtun are also the Children of Israel, and it is prophecy that the Children of Ephraim (the Pashtun) and the Children of Judah will reunite as one nation [Ezekiel 37].

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    This article puts the blame for the deaths of the Turkish terrorists where it belongs.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Later on that, Glenn.

    The point I was making that true faith – regardless of whether it’s a Christian brand or not – consists of letting go. I see nothing of the kind in Ruvy.

    Gandhi was militant against injustice, any injustice, pacifist that he was. Well, Ruvy happens to cut a contrary picture. His militancy in never other-directed, it’s self-serving.

    The very statement that Jews are obligated to exterminate the Canaanites – as he believes – speaks for itself. What kind of God would require his subjects to commit to a path of violence rather than peace?

    I can understand the writings of Gita, but according to Hindu beliefs, it doesn’t matter what we do in this life because this life is but an appearance, there being another life in its footsteps and eventually, the ultimate reality. It’s a spiritual stance.

    But in Ruvy, I detect nothing spiritual, only the preoccupation with the present, the philosophy of revenge and vengeance and bloodshed. There is no looking beyond. That’s why I find it difficult to sympathize.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    In your comment to Glenn, you reveal the depths of your ignorance. This is not a matter of “faith”, it is a matter of history.

    G-d commanded the Hebrews to drive the Canaanites from the Land “lest they be a thorn in your eye” because of the sinful practices they followed that were prohibited the Hebrews in Cap 18 of vayikra/Leviticus. In the Book of Joshua, you discover that the Hebrews, after murdering off a slew of Canaanite kings and killing the residents of the cities, as they were commanded by G-d to do, did not complete the job. In the Book of Judges, we see the consequences of falling down on the job – falling into the idol worship and the various evils that were associated with that idol worship. This was the “thorn in the eye” G-d had warned the Hebrews of. The Book of Samuel brings a conclusion to the idol worship – for a while – but all of the great Hebrew kings, EXCEPT David fall into idol worship at some point in their lives. Saul does when he consults the Witch of Endor. Solomon does in his old age, setting the low standard for his descendants.

    Now the Arabs living in Israel are not the Canaanites, no matter how much Kahanist rabbis try to paint them that way. So the issue is not driving the Arabs out to fulfill some command concerning the Canaanites. If one espouses driving the Arabs out of here, one does so because they are killing us, not because they are the descendants of the Canaanites or for vengeance or anything else. I realize you do not pay attention to these things, but I do not espouse generally the view of driving out Arabs.

    Now whether you sympathize or not is irrelevant to me, so long as you buy the Wahhabi BS line. You are still an enemy of the Jewish People.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, whatever the case, in the last post I was arrogant, now I’m ignorant.

    I really don’t give a shit anymore what you think anymore, you’re still a bloodthirsty stooge, your faith is a farce, and you’re a disgrace not only to your God; in fact, you’re a poor excuse for a human being.

    No more conversations with you. I give up.

  • zingzing

    ruvy, don’t quote the torah as history. it won’t work.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It’s the religion of the perpetual victims and the perennially inept. Take that book away from them, and they’d be lost like a babe in the woods.

    I really hope for serious repercussions as a result of this recent act of aggression. The state of Israel should be subject to international boycott by land air and sea. Let the motherfuckers taste their own medicine. But I don’t hold much hope for that. The US and the Middle East despots need a handy target, a whipping boy for the Arabs to pick on. Israel’s very existence is guaranteed because everyone needs a lowly pawn in this chess game. That’s the only purpose it serves – to dump on.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Roger –

    Your comment #241 is what I warned Ruvy against when I said hate begets hate begets hate, for wrong also begets wrong begets wrong.

    Jesus said to turn the other cheek. A Filipino saying goes, “If he throws a rock at you, throw back a loaf of bread.”

    My point is, one can rebuke without insulting the recipient…and it’s much easier to do in text than face-to-face. There’s no need for insults – all they do is reflect poorly upon the one who made them.

    Roger, you know I’m ignorant of many things, but I do know this: people who understand the value of humility and honor respect it in others. People who think that humility and honor are merely words to mask naivete…aren’t people you want to talk to, anyway.

    Repaying insult with insult only results in a vicious circle benefiting no one in the end. You’ve got the ability to communicate humbly and with honor – and when you do so, you’re far more effective than when you throw insults that are so far beneath your character.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, yes, it got the better of me. I tried to reason with him, but I should have known better. No mas.

  • Les Slater

    I was thinking about spirituality while reviewing some of the recent posts. Listening to my ‘top rated’ on iTunes. One of my relatively few five star Songs came on whith the following lyrics:

    The prophet is a fool
    the spiritual man is mad
    For the multitude of thy iniquity
    And the great hatred…

    Everyone’s tryin
    to decide
    where to go
    when theres no place to hide
    I follow the bombs as theyre coming down
    This must have been
    Hallowed Ground

    Ooooooo ooo ooo ooooo ooo oo o o

    No matter what
    they decide to have done
    burn up the clouds
    Block out the sun

    My hope is in
    one they cant bring down
    My soul is in
    Hallowed Ground

    Oo ooo oooo oo

    I see the fear
    Its on the rise
    Lets catch the enemy
    By surprise

    Bury your treasure
    Where it cant be found
    Bury it deep
    In Hallowed Ground

  • Zedd

    Question for all…. (cause I am really confused by this)

    Folks, the Palestinians are under occupation. They were removed from their homes, their land was taken away from them and are demonized by the world for fighting back and some even hating the people who did this to them.

    What are they supposed to feel towards Israel? Because some brothers sold their brother to Egypt cause they were jealous of him and his fancy coat or some folks who had gone to Egypt to live cause they could eat better, then left cause they were mistreated or cause Hitler (who occupied France) was a nut, THEY somehow have to suffer without complaining or fighting back or hating their occupiers or even wanting them to be blown off the face of the earth?

    Does this make sense to anyone????? What people would be alright with this?

  • Zedd

    Why should the Palestinians be okay with the occupation????

  • Les Slater

    Neither they nor anyone else should be OK with the occupation.

    245 – I heard this sentiment in various forms at yesterday’s Chicago protest. The problem is that it gets us no closer to ridding Palestine of the plague brought down on them by the creation of the state of Israel.

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Ruvy, amidst all the other fiction you are writing is a blatant lie; I am not and never have been a militant atheist.

    You know this full well as I have told you so on more than one previous occasion but, like all inconvenient facts, your dogma clouded mind simply ignores it.

    I couldn’t actually care less either way if there is a god or not and wouldn’t mind revering and serving one if there was.

    I simply decline to buy into theories that, after thousands of years of trying, lack any scrap of credibility or evidence to support them.

    A militant atheist though? I think that would require a level of activism I simply don’t have any interest in, just as I don’t bother campaigning against such other misguided and/or superstitious stuff as astrology or frenology.

    You obviously love the sense of drama and self-importance your chosen lifestyle gives you, which is kind of part of the illusory reward of the whole god thing.

    However, all your self-serving words are clearly failing to persuade anybody of your position, at which time you fall back on the comfortable and predictable laziness of saying we all serve your god’s plan whether we intend to or not, an unprovable assertion as you must surely realise.

    So, for at least the third time of stating it, stop attributing positions to me I don’t actually hold. You boast that you are still learning new things, so learn that…

  • Les Slater

    I am an atheist, but not militant lest someone come to the conclusion that I’m fighting God.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    US is the biggest obstacle. The European community should ignore US interests in the region and embargo the state of Israel just as the do to Gaza.

    Unfortunately, political interests always trump the moral ones. But perhaps, just perhaps, this last incident will be the straw that broke the camels back. Turkey was one of the few allies they had had from among the Muslim nations. I don’t see how those relations can be repaired. And Turkey is also of strategic importance to the US. So I hope to see a change in the US foreign policy, away from turning the blind eye.

    Interestingly, the Israelis keep sniveling about Iranian influence in Gaza in order to divert everyone’s attention from their own actions. They posit Iran is the real threat to peace, and themselves as merely doing their job to preserve world peace.

    A nice piece of propaganda worthy of Herr Goering, setting themselves up as the good guys. Well, I hope the world is not going to buy it.

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “I don’t bother campaigning against such other misguided and/or superstitious stuff as astrology or frenology.”

    Misguided?! Methinks Mr. Rose doesn’t like what the bumps of his skull tells him

  • Zedd

    It should be noted that many Israelis are against the occupation lest some try to make this be about Jewish people.

  • Zedd

    The Palestinian issue is the biggest fodder for terrorist recruitment. Because the situation is so ridiculous, people who are powerless or are already feeling ignored or dehumanized are ignited into more fervor by this ridiculous travesty.

    Basic reasoning would force one to reach the conclusion that the occupation is a huge miscarriage of justice; one that has no place in our times. However what is most maddening is that everyone is using double speak to muddle the discourse around this matter only to placate (lets all be honest) the American Jewish electorate and the religious fundamentalists.

    ALSO, believe that if the Palestinians were blond and blue eyed, we wouldn’t be having this thread. American Jewish electorate or not, the case would be closed and Israel would have suffered the fate of Saddam eons ago. The “religious” would be cursing Israel and calling for wrath to be upon them and He may smite them (then they’d volunteer to do it themselves)

  • Zedd

    @250 – agreed!!

  • Zedd

    Glenn,

    Let’s not please!

    Some sects of Christianity preach pure hate!!!

    Heck over history most Christian institutions supported hateful behavior.

    The KKK consider themselves Christians.

    We are no different, just as self absorbed,delusional, murderous, controlling, and probably more manipulative.

  • Zedd

    Les @247

    I have to disagree. I think we have to take the shroud of. Its like saying we cant say that apartheid is wrong, it does nothing to help the SA people.

    We have to, if we stand for what is right and we don’t want it to happen again, pronounce the misdeed clearly. There is absolutely no reason for the Israeli government to budge if we ALL don’t declare the occupation wrong.

    While I agree that diplomatic measures will have to be in place to navigate a solution that will be equitable, it as to be in vogue to declare the occupation WRONG in order to move forward, else Netanyahu and his pals are still left feeling comfy playing the poor victims in a “war” (where they possess more weaponry, a better military by far and much much more money)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Zedd,

    I don’t think Les was approving any form of occupation, anywhere or of anyone, nor was he suggesting that diplomacy was any kind of solution. His stance, as best as I read it, is TOTAL AND UNEQUIVOCAL CONDEMNATION.

    And indeed, the time to make that stand is now.

  • Les Slater

    Zedd,

    I was referring to the protest in Chicago. It was at least 500 strong. In itself this is good but most there were activists that were already convinced. There was not any obvious working class presence nor do I think there was any serious attempt to orient to the working class. It was purely a moral protest without much social weight.

    One major difference with South African apartheid was that a conscious revolutionary entity was fighting the battle, namely the ANC with its Freedom Charter.

    Hamas is neither revolutionary nor any model that honest people can be attracted to. There is a strong tendency there to blame the Jews for their situation. At the protest there were ‘We are Hamas’ banners and sentiment.

    We have to begin to bring much more clarity than that and especially bring it to the working class. We have to clearly distance ourselves from blaming Jews for the crimes of capitalist imperialism.

  • Les Slater

    Not only distance ourselves but to condemn such sentiment even it does not explicitly blame Jews. The sentiment is there and it does reinforce Jew hatred. This is deadly.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    But they’re the pawns of the imperialists. It’s like saying National Guardsmen did not fire at Kent State.

    I appreciate your taking the high ground and identifying the true cause. It surely promotes understanding. Meanwhile, what is the plan of action as regards Israeli behavior? Should it be allowed to continue? And for how long?

    It may be a long while before you will dismantle the machinery at work. So I suggest, striking at symptoms is one effective way of accomplishing the ultimate objective. And if not that way, then how?

  • Ruvy

    We should be talking Turkey, not whining about “poor ‘Palestinians'”, like enemies of the Jewish people are wont to do. But since you have been buying the lies of the Wahhabi, I’ll leave you fools to drivel on. You’ll never learn.

  • Ruvy

    Put simply, the Turkish regime has to be destabilized and overthrown with Kemalist generals who can kill of the Wahhabi who are now influencing policy in Turkey. If it isn’t there will be a war in the region, and we will have to destroy Ankara and Istanbul for our own safety.

    As for the morality of the matter, murdering off the murderers of the Armenians and the Kurds is only justice, however rough.

  • Ruvy

    This Daily Mail article is typical of the Jew-hating garbage that passes for coverage of the news here these days. Why look for a Nazi website when you can have the Jew-hatred of the bigoted Brits and feel respectable reading it?

    And to think. The editors here didn’t want to call my article news, when the facts have only verified what I have said. The bigotry is spreading here as well.

  • Ruvy

    After reading the trash from a number of individuals “commenting” here, I know exactly how this kid must have felt.

  • http://www.leavingthelandofwoo.com Bob Lloyd

    #222
    [Israel is the Jewish State. This is not an assertion of religious identification, it is an assertion of national identification.]

    That’s interesting because in that case we ought to be calling it the Israeli state and not a Jewish state. Since it’s a national entity and not a religious entity, any claims to territory based on religion should be dismissed.

    Since a huge number of the Jewish (religious) people in Israel come from other countries with previous other nationalities, we have to consider the nationality question – just how easy is it to become nationally Israeli? Having a mother who professes a Jewish faith? Converting from another religion regardless of nationality? Being born in Israel like so many Palestinians?

    It’s all very well saying this is a definitional matter but since so few agree on the definition, it doesn’t work, does it? It’s very clear that the definitions of what constitutes a Jew and what constitutes an Israeli are quite different classifications, and identifications.

    So calling Israel the Jewish state, isn’t in practice what happens. A huge number of Jews say the Israeli state isn’t their state (a majority?) even though they are legally able to claim “nationality”, and yet a huge number of Palestinians are disenfrachised even though they have impecable claims to ethnic membership of the state.

    As you say, this claim that the Israeli state is Jewish is just an assertion, and it’s clearly one that is contested by very many Jews.

    And you keep saying that it is none of our business but that’s like saying that a bully in the school yard is none of our business. If a state acts as a rogue state, it’s everyone’s business. If a state imposes apartheid on its own population, it’s everyone’s business. If a state declares a huge part of its own population terrorist, it’s everyone’s business.

    Israel is being exposed for the aggressive anti-democratic racist regime that it is, and your comments Ruvy, are contributing to that exposure. As you intemperately abuse anyone and everyone who disagrees with you, you demonstrate over and over the shallowness of your arguments.

    Israel is a military state that has a lot of Jews in it but is trying to conflate religion and ethnicity as a means of bolstering its regime and its war against the Arab world. It really can’t convincingly claim to be a Jewish state. And it’s encouraging that the Jewish community is increasingly coming out against the rulers of the Israeli state.

  • http://www.leavingthelandofwoo.com Bob Lloyd

    #258
    Exactly Les. It’s the conflation of Jewish and Israeli that allows Zionists to claim any criticism of them is antisemitic. I don’t think anyone on this discussion has anywhere blamed Jews whereas almost everyone is clearly putting the blame at the hands of the Israeli state. That distinction is really important and it’s not just semantics, notwithstanding Ruvi’s rather lame claim that the Israeli state is the Jewish state.

    #257
    Absolutely Roger. We have to unequivocally state that the Israeli occupation of Palestinian land is wrong, an offence under international law, and that resistance to it is justified. Whatever anyone thinks of the methods employed by the Palestinians, we have to say clearly that their cause is justified by Israeli aggression.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Zedd –

    Huh? I think if you look at my writings, I’ve said more than once how mainstream “Christianity” – and Catholicism in particular – has historically been a much greater threat to Jews than Islam has been; for instance, Martin Luther once said that if a Jew approached him and asked to be baptized, he’d tie one end of a rope to the Jew and the other end to a boulder and toss the Jew into a river to drown. Martin Luther’s writings were used in propaganda by the Nazis to justify their persecution of the Jews…and one should bear in mind that Lutheranism was the majority religion in Germany at the time (and I was once a Lutheran). That’s why there are quotes around the word ‘Christianity’ above – because we in the Church of which I am a member believe that neither protestants nor Catholics are actually Christian.

    I know that will probably offend several readers, but that is my belief, and my writings show that I do not make a habit about attacking others for their beliefs.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “And you keep saying that it is none of our business but that’s like saying that a bully in the school yard is none of our business. If a state acts as a rogue state, it’s everyone’s business. If a state imposes apartheid on its own population, it’s everyone’s business. If a state declares a huge part of its own population terrorist, it’s everyone’s business.”

    Exactly, it is everybody’s business (if they want to be recognized as a state, with all the rights and privileges that come with it), and even more so if if it a rogue state – which it is quickly becoming

    Of course, fanatics like Ruvy want to have their cake and eat it too, so that they can keep on weaseling themselves out the usual kind of responsibilities that come with belonging to a community of nations.

    Actually, it’s about time to start a wide-spread campaign to the effect that Israel is quickly approaching a rogue state status on par with such as North Korea and deserves to be treated as such. But for that, US foreign policy and interests must undergo a major shift. It will take some doing.

    Meanwhile, little do they realize the extent to which the state of Israel owes its continued existence to US duplicity and perverted national interests.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    @ #263: Well, Ruvy, this particular Brit would never feel respectable reading the Daily Mail, which is indeed generally put to best use beneath cat litter boxes.

    But your link is to a straight news piece, which avoids the emotive language and value judgments that resulted in your article’s ‘demotion’ from News to Opinion.

    As a straight news piece – and for the Mail, which is a tabloid, an uncharacteristically detailed one – it reports the accounts and opinions of those on both sides of the confrontation. The fact that some of those opinions express negative views of Israel does not demonstrate ‘Jew-hatred’ on the part of the paper or of Britain – any more than my telling you that my next-door neighbour called you a flaming transvestite means that I think you’re a flaming transvestite.

  • Cannonshop

    The Israelis didn’t do anything that the U.S. Coast Guard doesn’t do in “International waters” pursuant to the drug war-the only difference being the contraband in question that the Israelis were looking for are explosives and weapons. If your boating party attacked (even with clubs gaffes and knives) a USCG boarding and inspection group, they’d sink your boat and kill a bunch of you.

    EVEN in “International” waters.

    The israeli boarding teams had “Probable Cause” to assume the flotilla was smuggling arms-the sponsor of that ‘peace group’ being a muslim cleric who issued a fatwa endorsing the use of suicide bombing on civilian targets.

    On a tactical level, this flotilla was evading both normal border-inspections for weapons, and international observers, which just highlights the suspect nature of the activity (Similar to taking your private plane, say, on a Nap-of-the-earth flight from Bogota to, say, a destination in texas without going through normal border checks-they’re going to assume you’re smuggling when you’re trying to avoid radar…and nine times out of ten, they’re right.)

    This incident smells increasingly like it was deliberately staged. (Kind of like sending the peasant out into the minefield ahead of your cadre of NVA regulars.)

  • Ruvy

    I don’t like Snivelus Netanyahu. I never have. But for once, he is right. I don’t think any of you have the guts to admit that, except those of you who have shown you can see truth through lies, like Cannonshop.

    Most of the rest of you would support the murder of the Jewish people in their homeland, the establishment of an apartheid Arab state, look, say the problem is solved, and walk away with the satisfaction that no damned Jew is ever going to disturb your commercial filled broadcasts again.

    Think again.

    Before we die, you will die. Before we are destroyed, we will see to it that you are destroyed. This planet may be nothing but a burning cinder fit for cockroaches, but before we let you goyim inherit a Jew-free world, you will die first. The cockroaches won’t have to share this planet with the likes of filth like you.

    I think G-d has better plans than that for all of us. But for those of you who would have us die, and who would seek to destroy our nation, remember what I said. I don’t kid around, and lots of Israelis think exactly the way I do. And they are a lot closer to that nuke button than you realize.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    Ruvy, exactly how many nukes do you think Israel has?

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    There’s that crazy old mouse roaring again.

    It’s hard to know what’s funnier, the persistent delusion that it can win, the jiber jabber it comes out with to “support” its empty bluster or the fact that it is so scared and paranoid it can no longer tell who its enemies and friends are.

    Kinda reminds me of this character too:

    Gollum: We wants it, we needs it. Must have the precious. They stole it from us. Sneaky little hobbitses. Wicked, tricksy, false!
    Smeagol: No. Not master!
    Gollum: Yes, precious, false! They will cheat you, hurt you, LIE.
    Smeagol: Master is our friend!
    Gollum: You don’t have any friends; nobody likes you!
    Smeagol: I’m not listening… I’m not listening…
    Gollum: You’re a liar and a thief.
    Smeagol: No!
    Gollum: *Murderer*.
    Smeagol: Go away!
    Gollum: “Go away?”
    [Gollum laughs as Smeagol begins crying]
    Smeagol: I hate you, I hate you.
    Gollum: Where would you be without me, gollum, gollum? I saved us! It was me! We survived because of me!
    Smeagol: [stops crying] Not anymore.
    Gollum: What did you say?
    Smeagol: Master looks after us now. We don’t need you anymore.
    Gollum: What?
    Smeagol: Leave now, and never come back!
    Gollum: No!
    Smeagol: Leave now, and never come back!
    [Gollum screams in frustration]
    Smeagol: LEAVE! NOW! AND NEVER COME BACK!
    [Gollum is silent]
    Smeagol: [looks around] We told him to go away… and away he goes, Precious! Gone, gone, gone! Smeagol is free!

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “I’ll leave you fools to drivel on.” – Ruvy

    You were wrong about that one as well

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    You were wrong about that one as well

    It’s my article, EB. I’ll comment as I see fit.

  • http://www.leavingthelandofwoo.com Bob Lloyd

    #275
    Yes Ruvy, your article but you’ve had your prejudice comprehensively answered and you’ve left many many questions unanswered. When you put such prejudice and hatred in the public domain, you obviously expect the challenge as the cost of grabbing the headline for a little while.

    Anyone reading this discussion can see clearly that you are not talking to fools, or people deluded by Arab propaganda. Indeed, in many cases people seem to know at least if not more about Israeli politics than you do.

    You’ve achieved your aim of using BC as a means of putting your hatred on public display, but you haven’t been able to put a reasonable argument forward. That’s a shame.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    As for you, Mr. Lloyd, you neither know Jewish Law nor Jewish culture, in spite of your allegations to. In addition, you refuse to comprehend simple concepts of international law that make clear why Israel IS right in blockading a hostile state making war upon us, and why a simple police action was necessary to keep that blockade intact.

    As to Mr. Nowosielski, [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor].

    Both of you have bought into the Wahhabi garbage in the mainstream media it now controls. A Wahhabi businessman controls 8% of Fox News, and the rest of the American media take their orders from the Wahhabi or the Rockefeller Center. So, they lie. And you, like so many other useful idiots, believe them. That is why you are an enemy of the Jewish People.

    This article was a mere newsflash – changed to an opinion piece because even the editors here refuse to believe truth over the fantasy of mass media bullshit.

    There will be analysis pieces – published in detail explaining what is really going on and what is really going down. And if the editors here can’t handle it, it will go elsewhere. But when it is, it will not merely be available to you, it will be made available to primary actors in the region – so that they will understand that their actions are understood, and will be publicized – and that those whose lives they put on the line with their arrogance, careless and cavalier attitudes, know and understand – and may well react.

    Those reactions can bring down governments.

    Good day.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Ruvy has been putting his hatred on public display for ages, and BC is certainly not the only outlet. He is a well-known persona in any number of forums and discussion groups, spewing intolerance, blood lust and fanatical disposition of mind. All one needs to do is to google “Ruvy of Jerusalem,” his previous moniker to get access to many of Ruvy’s gems.

    One gets a distinct impression that he can’t possibly subscribe to most his views – no sane person possibly could. The obvious conclusion, he’s just whoring for the acclaim.

  • Les Slater

    Whatever Ruvy’s motivations, it’s good that his views are so transparent. You’d be surprised to know how many hold those views but keep them more or less private.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Indeed, and therein lies the value.

    FYI, though, I was only rubbing it in. I don’t really pretend to know what’s in a person’s heart.

  • http://www.leavingthelandofwoo.com Bob Lloyd

    #277
    [That is why you are an enemy of the Jewish People.]

    Once again, more maligning malicious comment. I am absolutely not an enemy of the Jewish people. I don’t accept that the Israeli state is acting in the name of the Jewish people and I oppose the racist irridentist regime because of its actions against the Palestinians.

    Given your obvious passion for violence, it’s perfectly credible to argue that in fact you are actually an enemy of the Jewish people and far from acting in their interests, you are keen to maintain the conflict, the violence, and the aggression. It’s hard to reconcile your statements with any intention of seeing a way forward other than constant warfare.

    But as any fair-minded person can see, I am not an enemy of the Jewish people. Live with it, as you might say.

  • Zedd

    Les,

    You cant get picky about how people fight for their freedom if you have never been occupied.

    As hawkish as we are and as nutty as a segment of our population is, I think we would make Hamas look like a band of miffed nuns.

    The SA situation taught me that there is always an excuse to perpetuate what we are comfortable with, even if it is evil. Most of the time it involves blaming the victim.

    What you don’t know is that the ANC was branded as terrorists at the time and talk radio shows talked about its leaders as Communists. I guess they were Communist Terrorists :) There is always a reason not to free people.

  • Les Slater

    Zedd,

    “What you don’t know is that the ANC was branded as terrorists at the time and talk radio shows talked about its leaders as Communists. I guess they were Communist Terrorists :) There is always a reason not to free people.”

    I did know what the ANC was called at the time. I supported them despite the hatred spewed by imperialism and their lackey mouthpieces. They were never an anti white organization. The Freedom Charter and Nelson Mandela were quite clear on that. Their program played no small part in the support they got and them winning. It wasn’t just how bad apartheid was but what was posed as an alternative.

    Hamas’ stated goals are to drive Jews out and/or kill them and institute Muslim rule in the whole territory. This should not be supported. It’s another matter when Israel is attacking Gaza, all should join in the defense.

    It is not the use of a particular tactic that is at issue here. Hamas will not win for political reasons. The PLO was at one time a progressive and revolutionary force. Their program included calling for a Democratic Secular Palestine. Their leadership was driven into exile and became disconnected from the mass of the Palestinian people. They too became just another force ‘fighting’ for a foot in the door of power. It was the U.S. that demanded they formally drop the Democratic Secular Palestine from their program before being given a piece of the pie. They did. It not only got them nowhere but took from the Palestinian people the only realistic banner to fight under.

    Hamas is what’s left over from a terrible pounding by Israeli forces for many years. It is good that the Palestinian people are still resisting. They have a right to resist. But they need to forge a new leadership who will reach out to the Jewish worker and others that objectively have no reason to support the State of Israel or its policies.

    As far as those in the U.S. we have no need to identify ourselves with Hamas or others of a similar ilk. Most of those that profess supporting Hamas are middle class. Jew hatred is not too far beneath the surface for most of the population in the U.S. and elsewhere. Looking toward Hamas in any way reinforces that Jew hatred; it makes it a little easier to accept one’s own Jew hatred.

    We need clarity in opposing this particular aspect of the morass that imperialism has brought us to. To go forward blindly will only make matters worse.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Les,

    Didn’t Hamas gain certain credibility due to its recent political successes, say in Lebanon (or Syria)?

  • Zedd

    Les,

    Lets make a distinction between the nation state Israel with its voters and elected officials who make specific decisions that oppress a people AND Jews. Not making that distinction distorts the discussion and is quite frankly one of the major factors if not the most significant factor that contributes to this stalemate. The word and label JEW is weighted with a lot of stuff and you know it. Lets talk about Israel.

    I find it interesting that Americans and Europeans often expect others to be more nuanced in experiencing pain. They want people to be sophisticated about hurting. The expectation is for others to parse and pontificate as they wait for others to get on board about seeing the injustice that is being dealt them, when nothing in their history suggests that they have ever managed that.

    The bottom line is that Israel is going to have to stop being so ridiculous, self righteous, oppressive and simply mean spirited. Perhaps if there was a divestment campaign they would be motivated to change. Right now, playing victim while being the oppressor is working for them. This tiny nation in the dessert gets to keep the world’s attention. Without the never ending wars, pity party and attention seeking, they are not that significant.

    In SA there were other very active groups that expressed the same as Hamas. There were people in the ANC that were more than OK with obliterating the Whites out of SA. People want freedom. If they don’t get it they will want to destroy their oppressor. Its a normal and actually benefical human/animal response. Lets accept that and move on. Lets all say it together… 1,2,3… If you oppress people they will want you dead.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    US non-committal position on the matter of the flotilla incident.

    Obama interviewed by Larry King (a video), plus lots more.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Good point, Zedd. We’re talking about actions of a militaristic state, not the Jewish people.

    We’ve got to keep the two separate, as you insist.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    1967 revisited: attack on USS Liberty.

    Looks like the pattern continues: duplicity on both sides, the Israeli and US governments.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    A fairly balance article on the subject, though a surface analysis at best.

  • Les Slater

    The beginning of the ANC Freedom Charter:

    “We, the People of South Africa, declare for all our country and the world to know:

    that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black and white, and that no government can justly claim authority unless it is based on the will of all the people…”

    There were liberation fighters, including within the ANC, that did not support this but it was the leadership team around Nelson Mandela that won the the struggle, took power and formed a non-racial government.

  • Les Slater

    “Lets make a distinction between the nation state Israel with its voters and elected officials who make specific decisions that oppress a people AND Jews.”

    That distinction is easy to make. Problem is that Hamas does not make that distinction.

    “Not making that distinction distorts the discussion and is quite frankly one of the major factors if not the most significant factor that contributes to this stalemate. The word and label JEW is weighted with a lot of stuff and you know it.”

    What are you trying to say? It is not explicit but I see it as an excuse for those calling for the death of Jews, to rationalize ‘they really mean death to the state of Israel’. You know the word and label ‘Jew’ is loaded with a lot of stuff. What kind of stuff?

    “Let’s talk about Israel.”

    The problem is if you condemn Israel and in the same breath praise Hamas, you are the one blurring the distinction. It objectively bolsters Jew hatred.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Why should Hamas’ determination in the matter affect our thinking?

    Besides, the objectives of Hamas do not present a clear-cut case.

    The US listing of Hamas as a “terrorist organization” doesn’t help matters either. If we’re predisposed to think along certain categories, our preconceptions will only end up being confirmed.

    So perhaps one of the first items on the agenda is to lift that condemnation and create an environment when talks would be possible – yes, even with Hamas.

    Of course, would it serve America’s interest? – that is the question.

  • Les Slater

    The U.S. has absolutely no right or credibility to label anyone terrorist.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, yes, but that doesn’t alter “the facts.” And it seems to me that the Gaza question and its blockade cannot be resolved without US participation (as per the following article); and that would mean making Hamas equal party to the talks.

    Therefore, the terrorist label must go.

  • Zedd

    Les,

    Don’t loose your cool points. More over, don’t contribute to the stalemate. No one praised Hamas. Our discussioun hasn’t been so long that you would forget or not be able to retrace my comments. It hasn’t happened.

    I am talking about Israel perpatuating a crime and people reacting to it. Fool stop.

    If a rapist kept coming into your home and raping your daughter over and over again, and the cops were paying for this guys living expenses and telling him he needs to be nice, you would want him dead and you wouldn’t be in the mood to be politically correct when talking about him. YOu wouldn’t be nice about the cops too. You would be wreckless at times and very radical at times. Your waking thoughts would be on how to take this guy out. EVERYONE would understand.

    Les you don’t know what it’s like to live under an oppressive regime and have reality distorted by everyone, including well meaning people on blogs.

    This is not a tit for tat. Israel is an extremely powerful nation and Hamas cant compete with their military.

    Lastly, if you dont understand how the term JEW is loaded then maybe this is not the discussion for you.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    The larger question is – perhaps we should invest in the well-being of the Palestinians and try to alleviate the abject poverty that plagues the peoples in the region.

    I can’t think of a better recipe to curtail acts of terrorism. But again, it doesn’t seem to be in our best (national) interests. We seem to suffer from a desperate, if not pathological, need to be able to readily identify “the enemy.”

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Did he disagree with you on your last point, Zedd? I don’t see it that way.

  • Les Slater

    “No one praised Hamas.” The last paragraph of 285 not only excuses Hamas by association with the ANC. You say people want freedom. Reasonable. But “…and were more than OK with obliterating the Whites…”. It’s one thing to recognize that whites will be killed in the liberation of South Africa but it is quite something else to call for the ‘obliterating the Whites’. Similarly we can expect Jews, and others, will die in the liberation of Gaza or broader territory. Again it is quite another thing to call for killing Jews. One can certainly understand such feelings but we don’t need to condone or excuse.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Good to see you, Les, taking a moral stance. It is a valid distinction.

    Which, once again, points to the importance of including Hamas in talks, if only for the purpose of rendering them more “ideologically neutral.”

    Fanon’s writings come to mind – dealing with the phenomenology of violence.

  • Les Slater

    “Which, once again, points to the importance of including Hamas in talks, if only for the purpose of rendering them more ‘ideologically neutral.'”

    You mean recognizing the right of Israel to exist?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Of course. Talks are meaningless otherwise.

    But I’ve always been taking their position as a posture, a trump card. No one is that ideologically one-sided unless they’re crazy.

  • Les Slater

    Do you believe Israel has a right to exist?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    As a state, yes, providing it plays by rules of international law.

    I’m not familiar enough with historical arguments pro and con (and as to the validity of biblical arguments, I don’t recognize it.)

    So from what vantage point should we discuss this question. Can’t we proceed from a hypothesis that possession is ninety percent of the law?

  • Mark

    Do you believe Israel has a right to exist?

    No more than any other State — in other words, no.

    Do I think that everyone living on that piece of land has a right to exist, yes.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    You’re changing the context on me, Mark. I wasn’t speaking in absolute terms – which is to say, propagating the rights of States.

    And I think neither was Les, not given the context of this debate.

  • Les Slater

    I do believe states have a right to exist.

    Israel is a specific state. It is a colonial garrison settler state, existing only at the behest of imperialism and the expulsion of previous inhabitants. It is a deliberate provocation. It should be dismantled. The geographical boarders of the present state of Israel in occupied Palestine are artificial and are no basis for any future state.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    It is a colonial garrison settler state, existing only at the behest of imperialism and the expulsion of previous inhabitants. It is a deliberate provocation. It should be dismantled. The geographical boarders…are artificial and are no basis for any future state.

    I can’t think of any state that doesn’t fit that definition.

    I think the imperialist mindset cannot be eliminated without eliminating the state. It seems the state (along with those whose domination it insures) is always colonizing the minds of its inhabitants.

  • Mark

    The free association of all in a democratic Palestine sounds ok. So, how do you get there from here?

  • Mark

    Cindy’s response is right on target.

  • Les Slater

    Cindy,

    “I can’t think of any state that doesn’t fit that definition.”

    You jest, no? At least you greatly oversimplify. The population of Palestine actively resists. This is not true in most other areas of the world.

    Mark, A Democratic Secular Palestine.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    But they all have resisted once upon a time, Les, not?

  • Les Slater

    Yes, but for the most part that resistance is long past. Not so in Palestine.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, yes, we have a dynamic situation. But it doesn’t detract from Cindy’s theoretical point – that formations of states can be equated with power grab.

  • Les Slater

    Going from the present to a two-state ‘solution’ doesn’t solve the problem. Proposing a zero-state solution is quite far fetched under current circumstances.

    In 309 Mark says he agrees with Cindy, but in 308 he says “The free association of all in a democratic Palestine sounds ok.”

    Can’t have it both ways.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, yes – we’re caught here between the rock and a hard place.

    A two-state solution is a temporary solution if both parties come to an agreement.

    A zero-state solution is a remote possibility, a thing of the future, once we all realize that national and ethnic allegiances are parochial and that our ultimate allegiance ought to transfer to common humanity.

  • Mark

    I am willing to accept ad hoc formations of governing bodies, prn. But essentially you’re correct, Les. It is a self-contradiction in the name of pragmatic compromise. The only reason to establish a Palestine is to eliminate it along with all borders.

  • Les Slater

    For a world without boarders. Totally agree but we got a ways to go yet. A democratic secular Palestine, even with boarders, would be a step in that direction.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    A democratic secular Palestine, even with boarders, would be a step in that direction.

    Definitely, and what better place to start.
    Imagine. It would serve as an object lesson.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “The only reason to establish a Palestine is to eliminate it along with all borders.”

    Right, just as launching pad.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    You jest, no? At least you greatly oversimplify. The population of Palestine actively resists. This is not true in most other areas of the world.

    Have you looked at the rate of alcoholism, suicide, and violence among Native Americans lately? How about Australian aborigines? Think on the views of the ‘Eskimos’ and Inuit.

    Here is something I found interesting. Soul Wound: The Legacy of Native American Schools.

    So, fast forward to where the Palestinians are absorbed or eradicated. It’s not the first time this has happened. I am just saying that all states are created this way, they are all illegitimate. Despite that their illegitimacy ‘appears’ to be a thing of the past. And I think it also it only ‘appears’ that way through the privileged mindset.

  • Les Slater

    And a democratic secular Palestine would have fewer and simpler boarders.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Of course, the Israelis could open their own boarders and welcome all Palestinians with open arms (ignoring for the time being the existence of Hamas), but that would be too much to hope for. So I guess one’s has got to proceed here in stages.

    Yet, it would be nice if they all could undergo a “national catharsis,” the changing of the entire mindset, on analogy with what’s possible for individuals.

    I don’t think there are any historical precedences of the kind.

  • Les Slater

    Marx said capitalism was born with dirt and blood dripping from every pore. But it was an advance from feudalism.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Meanwhile, we’ve got to deal with the reality of Realpolitik, an undeniable feature of the Middle East.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, it was an epochal change of social relations that produced the mind shift, not vice versa.

  • Mark

    So, how to get to that Palestine from here?

    Taking some liberties with the script: “So long as the [Semites] fight [tribal religion] against [tribal religion], so long will they be a little people, a silly people – greedy, barbarous, and cruel, as [they] are.”

    How can a class analysis impact the situation?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Or, alternatively, how can a measure of prosperity, elimination of poverty, etc., impact the situation?

    Are these two different questions?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Mark,

    I think you should give Steven Hicks a try (as per link on Kenn Jacobine’s thread). It’s a great overview, to say the least, punctuated with interesting insights.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Especially as regards his take on Kant.

  • Mark

    I watched a piece of Hicks’ anti-collectivist propaganda a couple of years back on Nietzsche and his place in the development of the Nazi movement. His conclusion: in order to not be Nazis we must be Capitalists.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, I don’t know about that. Or to say the least, I haven’t gotten to that point (as yet).

    That would a rather crude reading of Nietzsche – atypical of how I see Hicks so far – not to mention inability to navigate between the two extremes.

    So perhaps his prejudices show up later; they haven’t thus far.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I can appreciate, I suppose, his sentiment to the effect that socialism has failed. Does this necessarily translate into “anti-collectivist” thought? Not in my book. And is an adoption of capitalism the only defense against fascism and totalitarian state? Also no!

    So I wonder how he’s going to reconcile his understanding of postmodernism (which I think he approves of) without scrapping capitalism as one the major symptoms if not engine of the modernity’s ills.

    He may be right on Kant but he’s off on Rorty in counting the latter among the postmoderns.

    This may be a subtle clue, insofar that Rorty took the capitalist system for granted without ever exposing it to severe criticism.

    Shall see.

  • Ruvy

    I realize that a trio of “philosophers” has taken the liberty here to discuss Israel as if it has no right to exist or anything else, and as though this terrorist escapade off Gaza by the IHH and Recip Erdowan’s Wahhabi government in Turkey was a legitimate exercise. That’s nice. I’m not going to waste time discussing non-issues. These questions will be decided on the battlefield, and not in the comment threads of internet magazines.

    Just to focus things back to reality for a bit, bringing them down from the heights of phony philosophical pedantry, let’s look at this little item from Arutz Sheva. Apparently, the Turkish régime and its IHH terrorist smelly underarm are on the defensive. According to the WallStreet Journal, it is Turkey rather than Israel that should be scrutinized over these flotilla incidents. But they only represent the filthy capitalists. The “intellectuals” at the New York Times however also criticize the Turkish régime for letting its own rhetoric get out of hand.

    Since I’m busy on an article analysing all this, I won’t bother you great philosophers too much – other than to warn you not to fly too close to the sun – your wings will melt….

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Here is a clue from another one of his books, International Law and the Possibility of a Just World Order.
    An Essay on Hegel’s Universalism
    , and I quote from a reviewer:

    “ … offers a major contribution towards a Hegelian version of political universalism, understood as a gradual formation of a world-community of nation-states. …Hicks contribution highly enriches the ongoing discussion on cosmopolitanism and it offers insights into a side of Hegel which is commonly neglected by communitarians as well as cosmopolitan liberals: the universalistic Hegel.”

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    All of this brings me back to one notion — the true Palestinians and Israelis have more in common than not. The difference is that the remaining Arabic world wants Palestinians to stay where they are because they don’t want them in their respective back yards. Perhaps Israelis not tainted by the Netanyahu regime should band with the Palestinians and commit an armed invasion of the oil producing Arab nations. Somehow I wonder if Israeli-Palestinian management of oil reserves in the Middle East would be done so on a more humanitarian level.

  • Ruvy

    …true Palestinians and Israelis have more in common than not….Perhaps Israelis not tainted by the Netanyahu regime should band with the Palestinians….

    You don’t know how close you are to ideas that I am working on, Silas. There are a lot of pans on the back burners that the westerners do not see or understand – especially the philosphes so blinded by their philosopher gods that they cannot see the forest for the trees!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Now you’re talking, Silas. But you’re forgetting the major obstacle – the US of A.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    You’re forgetting one thing, Roger. WE, the people, can be the major obstacle to the continuing mismanagement of our government.

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Of course, Jews who want to stick to the worldview they attribute to their god also have far more in common with militant Islam.

    They are all so blinded by their god that they can’t see anything, never mind the forest…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I don’t know, Silas. We as people have grown ignorant and dumber over the years, and our politics reflects that.

    So how are you going to change that?

  • Ruvy

    By the way, Chris, have those lovely folks built a mosque yet on the Isle of Wight? I’m just wondering if you are getting an appropriate exposure to the Wahhabi “religion of peace”.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Who are “the Wahhabis”? that’s what I want to know.

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    I’ve had more than enough exposure to all three strands of the monotheist theory, Ruvy.

    None of the adherents of any of these “land of woo” believers have ever been able to justify their views or even explain them coherently.

  • Ruvy

    That wasn’t quite the question I asked you, Chris. I asked if these lovely Wahhabi types have built a mosque yet on the Isle of Wight that you might enjoy the muezzin call the faithists to prayer.

    Since unlike Christians or Muslims, it doesn’t matter to me what your religion is or isn’t, I am under no obligation to explain anything to you – coherently or otherwise…. But the Muslims and Christians will keep trying, for whatever it is worth to them.

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    As you never bother to respond to questions unless it suits you, Ruvy, I don’t see any reason why I should play your game.

    I can’t see any difference between people who think like you and other militants who try to justify their ideas by invoking their beliefs.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    OK, enough with the damn sniping. I’ve been monitoring the deconstruction of Helen Thomas all day and I have to say I am flaming furious at a lot of people right now. From her personal manager to her agency, this woman is being thrown under the bus for the comments she made. Now, I’m not saying that her comments had any validity; however, the smear tactics being used by Jewish lobbies and Bush Administartion officials like Ari Fleischer are really pissing me off. These assholes have had it in for her since day one. And what they fail to tell you is that their hatred for her is completely racially motivated. Helen Thomas is of Lebanese decent, and Bush people don’t like it.

    To quote Ari, “Helen Thomas expresses hatred in her heart and she wants to get out of being caught.” Well, you know what? Those words are another that ring hollow with me. The Bush Administration would think nothing of eradicating the Taliban. Isn’t that ethnic cleansing? The Bush Administration has no problem destroying opponents of their friends the Saudis. Isn’t that ethnic cleansing?

    We are so busy performing fellatio on the Saudi Royal family because we need their oil. We don’t care that they treat women like chattel. We say nothing about their horrific treatment of gays. After all, in the world of the Far Right, gays would be imprisoned for life or executed. And, women, well they pay females lip service but if you’re an “in” politician on C Street you can sleep with all the women you want and God will forgive you.

    We in the United States have a double standard. If they’re not our friends, screw them. If they are, and happen to be oppressive, who cares? So long as we make money and have our addiction to oil and cheap goods satisfied. People lambaste Ruvy for being so tough. Not for nothing, folks, we’re duplicitous. At least Ruvy is fighting for a cause he believes in. At least he’s trying to do some good in his war torn part of the world. Every gallon of gasoline we consume puts a burka on a woman’s head. Every plastic bag we fill with cheap crap from China blows up a school for girls. Every iPad, ThinkPad, iPod, and iDildo we buy assures that one more worker in some sweat shop in Asia will end up killing themselves.

    I posited that Palestinians and Israelis have a more common bond than we are led to believe. It seems that Ruvy may agree with me. Isn’t it amazing? If we leave out the bullshit and get to the crux of the problems we can actually find common ground. That’s such a novel approach. And it doesn’t put money in the wallets of politicians. You people should be as angry as I tonight. If Helen Thomas gets ridden out of Washington on this one, we may as well surrender our government to corporations and special interests. Oh, wait! We may have already done that because we are too damned fat, stupid and lazy to open our eyes or take them up from our iPads.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I hope you’re not including me, Les and Mark in that bunch – for being hypocritical and duplicitous.

    And I don’t think anyone here lambastes Ruvy for “being so tough,” as you say but for his fanaticism, Silas, and for his ad hominems, whether he realizes that or not. And excuse me, I am not going to let a grown man to think he can be getting away with his tantrums. Quite the contrary, I’m going to call him on it as I have done in the past. So yes, I expect responsible speech and postings from a grown-up. Just because people disagree with his opinions is no kind of excuse.

    Besides, you mistake passion for fanaticism, Silas. You’re grossly mistaken if you think they’re the same.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    No, I don’t include you in that, Roger. I’m so passionate about the railroading of Helen Thomas that it has caused me to become fanatical. The Jewish lobby is as big of a problem in Washington as the corporate interests. I’m not being racist, I’m being practical. American Jews seem to think that they have some Divine Right to inject their will on to the people of Israel. Sorry, that don’t cut it. You’re American or your Israeli. Can’t have it both ways because there comes a day when one may have to choose between countries and/or governments.

    Sometimes I get the feeling that there are American Jews and Christians who look at Benyamin Netanyahu as the legitimate successor to the Throne of David. For a secular country, we really do have a thing about Divine thrones. I see the Prime Minister as a servant of his own interests and not that of the will of his people. But, that’s as far as I can go. The Israelis must be afforded the courtesy of determining their government.

    I don’t look at Ruvy as one who wants the eradication of the Arab world – just a sect of it. And, looking at his history, I understand his position. That doesn’t make it right nor does it mean I agree wholeheartedly. Again, the only way to cease the perpetuation of centuries of hatred is through fair, equitable education of our young.

    I’m really interested in what other think around here. Have we become duplicitous? I watched Ari Fleischer go off on Helen Thomas tonight and almost got the impression that he was getting some sick, perverse sexual gratification out of it. He’s had it in for her for a long time. And it comes down to this — is Ari Fleischer’s hatred of Helen Thomas gender and race based? She is a female Lebanese member of the media. That’s the holy trinity of AntiChristdom according to the world of Bush’s White House and his minions of far right religious whack jobs who almost make the Taliban look civilized. People should be mad as hell at what’s going down here and, as far as I am concerned, this is bordering on elder abuse.

    Helen Thomas has chronicled many pivotal moments in our political history since the days of Eisenhower. She hasn’t always been right, but she has served her readers impeccably in bringing out facts that we should know. The Far Right with Ari Fleischer as their Commandant are reveling in destroying this woman’s incredible career. They will stop at nothing to destroy every fiber of her being so that she will be tossed into the scrap heap of political history as an inconvenient footnote. Why is it that an apology from Helen Thomas doesn’t get the same treatment as an apology from someone on the Right? What’s Hearst going to do? Replace Thomas with Sarah Palin?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I’ve got to look this up, Silas, about Helen Thomas, that is.

    Do you have a link or two?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “equitable education of our young . . .” and bringing relative prosperity to the region, I’d add.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    And BTW, Ruvy shouldn’t be talking about anyone’s elimination, because then he is no better than the very sect which talks about elimination of the likes of him.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Here’s the link to the Helen Thomas story at FOX, Roger. And I purposely do this for a reason. See how FOX has twisted this story ever so subliminally by highlighting the story with a picture of Ms. Thomas and the President. This is the Right wing MSM telling us that Obama and Thomas are liberal racists who hate Jews. See how they pander? See how they appeal to the collective ignorance of people who are uninformed?

    Then check out the site concerning the HBO Documentary Helen Thomas: Thank You, Mr. President produced by RFK’s daughter Rory. Watch the politicians and MSM, Roger. They’re lining up. They’re expressing outrage and consternation. It’s all one big ruse designed to suck the Jewish-American lobby right in for the cash. There’s no moral outrage. It is all fake. They’ll crucify Helen Thomas until she’s professionally destroyed. And shortly thereafter I predict she will slip peacefully into the night for her life’s mission will have come to an end. And another member of the golden days of media will be conveniently disposed. It sucks.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Thanks, Silas, and good night.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I see what you getting at, Silas. I would say her remarks about going back to Germany were over the top, but they’re all crucifying her for it.

    And it’s interesting to ponder why. There was certainly less furor in MSM about Israeli action vs the flotilla, leaving nine dead. But contrast, Helen is guilty of at worst, hate speech, at best very tactless one. I’d like to believe the latter, and can see how an activist can be frustrated by Israel’s policies in the Middle East and the entire world watching as though impotent.

    But come on, even “hate speech,” if it was that, is protected in the US; and it’s certainly less of an offense that Israel’s piracy on the high seas and their stronghold on Gaza.

    So yes, the MSM is showing where it’s loyalty lies – and you’re probably right. It’s Jewish money and ownership of the media. Bunch of sellouts.

    But I want to discuss this later, hear your take.

  • Ruvy

    On Facebook, Congresswoman Michele Bachmann (Rep. MN 6th CD) wrote that she was going to attend a pro-Israel rally, presumably last night, local time. This is what I wrote her.

    “Thank you, Congresswoman Bachmann. We used to live in Minnesota (though not in the 6th District) before moving here to Israel. We Israelis have few friends in the world. If you look at Numbers 23:9, you will see that we Children of Israel are destined to be reckoned apart from mankind. So, that we are in the fix we are in is no surprise. As I write, planes fly overhead, drilling for war: war with Lebanon/Syria, war with Turkey, war with Persia. Everyone I speak with expects war soon, and the Turks, being gulled by the Persians to do their dirty work for them, are likely as not to be part of this.

    When war does break out, it is more than likely that we will be able to pull up lawn chairs and watch our enemies bombard Tel Aviv, as they did in 1991. Missiles may strike us here as well. I expect our internet connections will be cut off. But I trust then that even though your administration will support out enemies, you will be a voice of righteousness in pack of jackals.”

    There are decent people in the world, and their decency deserves public recognition, if at all possible.

  • Zedd

    Les

    BTW that was “full stop” not “fool stop”.

    I think you misunderstood. I am not talking about what SHOULD occur but what WILL/DOES/HAS happened. We are talking about human beings and human nature. It’s asking too much and it is a rare thing that a person who is attacked, their children put in danger, their livelihood compromised, their society dismantled, for them not to what you and your system destroyed.

    Americans are fond of heroic images thus tend to Hollywoodize reality. Ghandi, MLK and Mandela are celebrated because their position is rare. Humans don’t tend to do thusly. Its against the survival instinct. Even these heroic figures were nudged into those positions by circumstance.

  • Mark

    Zedd, the social movements that your examples led were not insignificant. Many folks find it in their nature to turn away from vengeful violence as a practical matter — even in the face of personal loss, suffering and the ‘survival instinct’. This choice will/does/has happened.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I suppose we can expect mea culpa in the follow-up.

  • Les Slater

    The social and political realities inside Israel are quite complicated. See Israel rulers craft new coalition government from the Militant over a year ago.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    At last, UK takes a tough stand against Israeli piracy on high seas:

    As possible confrontation with another aid ship loomed, British Prime Minister David Cameron took a tough stand against Monday’s pre-dawn Israeli raid which killed nine activists, terming it “completely unacceptable.”

    ——————–

    It’s good to hear from a British PM, and a conservative at that, to take a tough stand against Israel’s militaristic policies. When will the US be next?

    But judging by the reaction of the MSM to Helen Thomas’s rather irresponsible speech, all intent on crucifying her, it’s not about to happen in a near future.

    I suppose our imperialistic ambitions in the Middle East trump US foreign policy every step of the way. It is in our express interest to have Israel play the patsy, inheriting the hatred of the oppressed people, to divert attention from ourselves and the Arab despots.

    And MSM is only too happy to sing the refrain.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, Tzipi Livni made a mistake. Now her party is excluded from the decision-making process.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    For all of Ruvy’s ravings against Obama, he fails to realize that in terms of geopolitics, America is still Israel’s best friend.

  • Les Slater

    “For all of Ruvy’s ravings against Obama, he fails to realize that in terms of geopolitics, America is still Israel’s best friend.”

    Israel is not a people though. It is a state. Certainly the U.S.’s policies are no friend of the Jew, the Arab or anyone else in the region.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I was talking about the state.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Ruvy ought to be the first to realize is that the Israeli state is the enemy of the people. I’m certain he does, yet he can’t seem to dissociate two levels of discourse – political and personal. I’m not saying it’s easy because the issues are conflicting. Defending IDF is, in a sense, defending his people’s security and safety; and yet, it is morally wrong.

    It’s this conflict that he’s got to resolve.

  • Ruvy

    Les Slater’s article from the Militant shows the limits that such a magazine can have in accurately portraying political reality here. Let’s start with the “social democratic Labor Party”. Labor got rid of its socialism in the 1980’s and made a decision to try to win the Arab vote with its policies. They are as social democratic as Dave Nalle is. Now let’s move on to SHAS.

    SHAS is not a right wing party. It is a religious party that represents or purports to represent the S’faradim in Israel, the Jews from Morocco, to Iraq who speak Arabic, Greek, Bulgarian, Spanish etc. as the language from their lands of origin. Politically, it is a party that stands for providing welfare payments to large Jewish families – in addition, it is willing to evacuate some territories in Judea and Samaria for the sake of “peace”.

    Yisrael Beitenu is the political party that most represents the Russian immigrants in Israel. Russian immigrants here tend to be nationalistic, but also tend to be against any linking of the government to the Jewish religion. They push the sale of pork, civil marriage and non-observance of Judaism in Israel. These are just three examples of how the Militant article misrepresents reality here, either on purpose, or out of plain ignorance.

  • Les Slater

    Of course there are limits. The point was to give a broad and general picture of the complexities of the situation and the limits to what Israel can do and how various forces relate to that.

    I am no position to know, agree or dispute your specific comments. But thanks for those comments. I was hoping to hear more from you on the general thrust of the article. The difficulty forming the government and various territorial proposals that some had made.

  • Les Slater
  • Les Slater

    And from the week after the previous two articles, ‘Zionism,’ its use today, not in 1948.

  • Les Slater

    And of course no Social Democratic party has anything to do with socialism. It long predates the ’80s. They’ve been backing their own capitalist classes at least since 1914.

  • Roger B

    Judging by the cowboy antics of the IDF perhaps Israel is being overtaken by a military coup.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Any administration of Benjamin Netanyahu may as well be a military coup. The man is a danger to the Middle East and an even greater danger to his fellow Israelis. But I can do nothing but be an independent observer — it is incumbent upon the Israeli people to determine their own political fate.

  • Les Slater

    The Wall Street Journal claims Gaza Blockade Hampers Private-Sector Economy

  • Ruvy

    Israel is not a people though.

    WRONG, Les. The Children of Israel are a People, and the Jewish people are only a part of the greater whole – which includes at the very least, the Pashtun of Pakistan and Afghanistan. This is not myth, this is reality, backed up by the Pashtun who themselves can show the many Israelite practices they have retained over the years.

    The situation is a lot more complicated than simpletons like Marx or Hegel or Foucault, or St. Simon or all the other idiot philosophers who get thrown around here as if they actually know something, can imagine.

    The folks at the Militant haven’t a clue. Nor will their dogmatic atheism allow them to get one.

  • zingzing

    israel, the state, does not equal “the children of israel.” not in political terms, anyway.

  • Les Slater

    Israel is not a people! The ‘Children of Israel’ are not Israel. Your Israel is not the Israel that is in the news.

  • zingzing

    les, ruvy is a person who will get his own sons killed. if there should ever be a true pacifist, it would be one with sons old enough to die in war. but ruvy’s the type of man that wishes for a war that his sons will fight in, while he sits a home.

    he probably believes that it would be honorable and good if they did die in that war. it’s disgusting.

    “protecting the children of israel” will kill his own family off. and yet he persists. it’s like watching someone hit their head against a wall.

  • Ruvy

    Les, let’s settle this silly back and forth now. Look at my Ruminations on the Destiny of the People of Israel from January 2007.

    I. Defining the terms

    1. Zionist movement: a largely secular movement to bring Jews home to the Land of Israel.

    2. State of Israel: the political expression of the Zionist movement.

    3. Children of Israel: the descendants of Jacob (Israel), son of Isaac, son of Abraham, son of TeraH, a high priest in Sumer, in the city of Ur, who left for the city of Haran when the king he served died. After a period of time, Abraham, commanded by G-d, continued westwards to the Land of Canaan.

    4. People of Israel (Hebrews): the descendants of the sons of Israel, who were divided into a number of tribes.

    5. Land of Israel: territory designated by the Torah [baMidbar/Numbers 34:1-15] or the Tana”kh [Ezekiel 47:3-23, 48:1-35] as the territory that G-d has given the People of Israel.

    6. Kingdom of Israel: This has three definitions.

    a) the Kingdom of Sha’ul (Saul), David, and Shlomo (Solomon) which extended as far as the Euphrates River at the height of its power;

    b) the secessionist kingdom of ten tribes that separated from the tribes of Yehuda (Judah) and Shim’on after the death of Shlomo (Solomon) and accession to the throne of his son ReHavam. With time, this kingdom weakened and the territory of the tribe of Benyamin became part of the southern kingdom of Yehuda (Judah);

    c) in messianic times, the Kingdom of Israel will be the entity that succeeds the State of Israel and any other entity that rules here.

    7. Jews: Originally, the descendants (tribe) of Yehuda, one of the sons of Israel. With time, the tribe of Shim’on merged into the tribe of Yehuda, and with time, the tribe of Benyamin merged as well [Scroll of Esther 2: 5-6]. At the time of its fall, the Kingdom of Yehuda represented the tribes of Yehuda, Shim’on, Benyamin and those people of the tribe of Levi who lived within the borders of the kingdom. The descendants of these people are the Jews mentioned in definition #1.

    a) According to halakha (normative Jewish law), a Jew is the child of a Jewish mother, or a convert to the religion who accepts the entire corpus of 613 commandments of the Torah. If male, the convert needs to be circumcised. All converts are required to immerse in flowing water or a mikva (ritual bath). According to the rules of the Rabbinate, the official Jewish religious body in Israel, the forgoing definition is the only definition of who is a Jew.

    b) According to the ministries of interior and of absorption of the State of Israel, the forgoing definition is the primary definition of who is a Jew. But these ministries will accept other individuals who have Jewish grandparents as Jews. It should be noted that the Israel High Court of Justice has ruled that non-normative (i.e. non-“Orthodox”) conversions from overseas will be accepted as well. But at the same time, the ministry of the interior has refused to accept some converts, even “Orthodox” ones, for automatic citizenship, requiring a rather arbitrary waiting period and naturalization process.
    8. Israeli: This has two definitions.

    a) one who lives within the State of Israel, or who has Israeli citizenship and who is subject to its jurisdiction;

    b) an artificial cultural construct, a creation of the Zionist movement, an attempt to create a new Jew, one uninfluenced by the rabbis and the decadent Jewish culture of Eastern Europe.

    9. Palestine: This has three definitions.

    a) The territory of the Land of Israel under the name given it by the Romans in 100 CE or so, Syria Palestina. This name was given the territory to insult the Jewish (Judean) inhabitants of the country, as the name Palestine recalls the name Philistine, an Aegean people that fled to this country, settling in the vicinity of what are now the cities of Gaza, Ashdod, Ashkelon and Gath, and who were traditional enemies and persecutors of the Children of Israel;

    b) the territory covering both sides of the Jordan River granted to the Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland by the League of Nations as a “Mandate”, with the stated purpose of creating within it a “Jewish national homeland.” The British separated most of this territory from its direct rule and administered it as the Emirate of Transjordan with the son of Feisal, Sherif of Mecca and Medina, Abdallah, as Emir. Under international law, the Palestine Mandate was the successor state to the Ottoman Empire where it had jurisdiction. The successor states to the Palestine Mandate are the State of Israel and the Kingdom of Jordan;

    c) the political construct of Arab terrorist organizations who wish to end the State of Israel, and to end the Jewish presence in this region.

    10. Palestinian: This has two definitions.

    a) A resident of the territory of Mandate Palestine, an individual under its legal jurisdiction. It should be noted here that for the entire period of British rule, the Arabs resident in Mandate Palestine did not self identify as “Palestinians,” but as members of the Arab “Umma;”

    b) an artificial cultural construct of the terrorist movements representing the Arab refugees who left the Palestine Mandate during the war that broke out in 1947-49. A great deal of “academic” work was done by the Husseini family to construct a history for this non-existent nationality. Additional work was done by discredited scholars such as Edward Saïd, who was shown by Justus Weiner to have lied about basic facts about his own life. Only after the founding of the Palestine Liberation organization, did the Arabs claim to be “Palestinian.”

    Les, the foregoing is a comprehensive definition, and the interplay between the Jews, the Children of Israel, the State of Israel, the Pashtun (from tribes like Ephraim and Reuven) and the resident Arabs now in the Land forms the set of issues that need to be clarified over time.

    The philosophies of the Hegel and Marx, while interesting and good for certain kinds of historical analysis, have no bearing on the Destiny of the Children of Israel and the Land of Israel.

  • Les Slater

    Ruvy,

    I really appreciate your 378 especially the second to last paragraph.

    I’ll try to respond with my perspective on the content of this post at a future time but first some personal observations.

    More than anything, it is the tone of this post that got me thinking about how you see the Militant articles and me. Among the participants on these threads, I believe you alone understand, and appreciate, what the Militant is saying. I also appreciate your criticism and irritation of same.

    You, and maybe others, see that the message of the Militant rings familiar to any that read my views on the subject. It is no accident.

    But I want to go deeper than that. For quite a while you believed that I was a Jew. I also know you are quite perceptive on these matters. You believed I was a Jew despite my political views. You probable recognized in other Jews what you believed were similar political views.

    It turns out that I am not a Jew and in fact was brought in a Pentecostal family. In my younger days you would not have suspected a shred of Jewishness in me. I’m sure you’d have detected an element of Jew hatred. What would you expect? I was taught that Jews would not go to heaven because they did not accept Jesus.

    So where did my Jewishness come from? It came from my training in becoming a communist, specifically as a member of the U.S. Socialist workers Party. What you saw was my communism, not some Jew hating fake. The fact that you saw me as Jewish is a complement not just to me but also the Socialist Workers Party. Thanks.

    Les

  • Zedd

    Mark,

    These individuals and their movements grew into themselves. They didn’t start off as they ended. A number of factors forced their evolution.

    What I am saying is, let us not EXPECT the exception to be the norm. It is the exception, hence it is a rarity. Yes lets do celebrate when humanity rises above it’s own tendencies but lets also not punish those who respond appropriately (within the bounds of what is natural for their species). Doing otherwise compounds the abuse that they are already experiencing.

    In a struggle for change, all forces are often necessary to push the system towards the end result. Without the radical elements, the less militant don’t have a need to distinguish themselves thusly a passivist movement doesn’t arise. Also, without a fear of the radical element, the oppressor does not feel discomfort and either over react (and cause a public outrage) or doesn’t move towards working with the moderate element.

  • Ruvy

    Les,

    It’s obvious that you view The Militant as an authoritative news source. And it is obvious why. While we have sharply disagreed in the past, and will continue to disagree, I view you primarily as a gentleman – a person who is honest and who can hold a civil discussion with someone of sharply differing views.

    Yes, once I thought you were part of the Tribe, and I see the influence of the Jewish socialists on you, right down to the Bundist antipathy to the resettlement of Israel in favor of a world revolution of the workers.

    Try and understand this. I know it is hard for you to, but try to wrap your head around this anyway. The Bundists and related groups did what they could to help Stalin destroy the Jewish community in the Soviet Union. When Stalin thought he had succeeded enough so as not to need them, he had them executed, one by one. One of last of these fools was sitting in on a meeting when he was executed – it was only before he was killed and he was being laughed at by the non-Jews around the table that he realized what he had done and recited shma yisrael (the central cry of the faith) before he died.

    This is the kind of thing you learn from Russians Jews who left the USSR and the Russian Federation, Les. And I know lots and lots of Russians who left the USSR or the Russian Federation. This country has over a million of them.

    Your arguments against Israel and Zionism might have been relevant in 1920. An unreconstructed Communist I knew as a child (a friend of the family named Alex) used them on a young woman who was his wife’s cousin. She had come to New York from the Midwest with her husband, and was staying with her cousin Rose (and with Alex) while awaiting the ship for the near east. I’m guessing from the way this story was recounted to me in the early ’70’s that Rose agreed with her cousin against her husband, Alex. In fact, reading into this story a bit, the weak willed husband of the young lady from the Midwest was also probably opposed to going to Israel. You may have heard of the young woman. Her name was Golda Meyerson.

    Now, I’m fully aware of the dirty deals that the Labor Zionists did with the Nazis in the early ’30’s. I know they have lots and lots of Jewish blood on their hands – far more Jewish blood than Arab blood, in fact. It’s hard to vomit up the ideals of one’s youth when the bitter and evil truth comes to light. But ben-Gurion, evil as he was, still brought into existence this state – faults and all. And knowing what I do from the Russians about the fate of the Bundists, and about Stalin’s real plans for the extermination of Jews in the Soviet Union, there is no way you can convince me that not having a Jewish state would be better than having one.

  • troll

    Zedd, personally, the histories provide sufficient examples to justify a proactive pacifist method. Thus, I intuitively reject the dialectic of fear as a productive tactical attitude. Again, that’s just me.

    But I certainly agree that radical reactions (as in violent) should be expected in today’s conflicts.

  • Mark

    (Zedd, that would be Mark, of course.)

  • Les Slater

    Ruvy, you seem to have no idea of the politics and attitude of the Socialist Workers Party towards the Bund and/or Stalin. When I was in the SWP during the ’70s they identified themselves as Trotskyists as well as Leninists. Both were quite clear in their opposition to the Bund. Trotsky condemned the Stalinist party, government and the international. Not the least of which was the condemnation of Stalin’s crimes against the Jews.

  • Ruvy

    True, but if I remember correctly, Trotsky was also against the Zionists. So, while they might have condemned the Bund (probably because they worked with Stalin), they were still against a Jewish State. But that is something you would know better than I. By the 1970’s I had moved on from the meetings in the buildings near Union Square, meetings of “world revolutionary parties” with 6 and 7 members or so.

    I realized that my truer home was the Jewish Defense League. Instead of smelling from failure and arguing disputes of people long dead, the JDL was doing something right then and there, and instilling pride in young Jewish kids like me.

  • Les Slater

    Lenin and Trotsky were against the Bund because the Bund were nationalists and revolutionary Marxists were internationalists.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    And so was Einstein, agains Zionism.

    But Einstein was only a brilliant physicist; in all other matters, he was an idiot – so says Ruvy.

  • Ruvy

    Okay, Les. I get it. But in the end, the Bund helped Stalin destroy the Jewish community in the Soviet Union – and got six feet of earth for their efforts. They were useful idiots, in other words. Much the same can be said of many American Jewish organizations that wrap themselves in the Stars and Stripes. They too, have participated in the critical weakening of the Jewish community, of k’lal yisrael, in the United States. And I fear that they will get the same reward the Bund did in the USSR.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “The philosophies of the Hegel and Marx, while interesting and good for certain kinds of historical analysis, have no bearing on the Destiny of the Children of Israel and the Land of Israel.”

    Right, because their destiny has been writ large by the finger of Yahwew.

    You have infinite patience, Les. While Ruvy may have some command of facts, his one-dimensional thinking precludes any possiblility of an honest-to-goodness conversation. As far as I am concerned, engaging him only contributes to his delinquency. The correct strategy is to exclude him from the community of humans. Let him dwell in the labyrinth formed by his own thoughts, delusions and fantasies. There is no other treatment.

    See, problem is, Les, you’re trying to win a rational argument with Ruvy or reach a common ground. Wrong! These are at best secondary objectives. What you ought to be aiming at is to bring Ruvy to the community of the living, to wake him up from his psychosis and his delirious dreams. This is your responsibility as a human, Les, help a fellow human in need. Screw the rest.

    I still wish you luck.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    …exclu(sion) from the community of humans… dwell(ing) in the labyrinth formed by (one’s) own thoughts, delusions and fantasies.

    Doesn’t sound half bad…can I go too? (I hope there is a water view.)

    Yes, silly, but really, will that work? Do you think? Would a person care if they were excluded from a group they already exclude themselves from? (In this case, not ‘humans’ entirely, but the bulk of humans.)

  • Ruvy

    Les,

    For a change of pace from these discussions, watch this. This is about where I live in Samaria. In the book of Judges, it talks about Micah, and the idol he established. The last line or so of the book mentions Levona. But there is more history than merely the pesel mikha. Giv’at Har’el is not far from Ma’ale Levona.

    Afterwards, I suggest you check out my newer article. The last comment indicates that something interesting may be going on. Not fun interesting, but Chinese curse interesting, if you know what I mean.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com roger nowosielski

    Yes, Cindy, but not before you ingest some peyote.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com roger nowosielski

    Thinking yourself excluded is the first stage of the disease. And from that point on, it progresses exponentially.

  • Les Slater

    “…many American Jewish organizations that wrap themselves in the Stars and Stripes. They too, have participated in the critical weakening of the Jewish community, of k’lal yisrael, in the United States.”

    Anyone wrapping themselves in the Stars and Stripes weakens their community. The Stars and Stripes stands in opposition to any community, including those within its borders. The modern capitalist ideology, which is nothing more pragmatism, raises the individual to the center of all, subject to prostrating before authority of course. Human solidarity be damned.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com roger nowosielski

    Indeed. But we do see it in Greece and most recently in Spain. That is encouraging, and I hope it spread like wildfire.

  • Zedd

    Ruvy,

    It looks to me that you have made The Children of Israel your idol. I don’t see you talking about God and the virtues that he would have you espouse. You talk more about yourself and those that are genetically linked to you. I am pretty sure that the goal is not for Israelites to love themselves for the sake of loving themselves.

  • Zedd

    troll,

    I don’t disagree with you. I would hope that were I placed in a situation where I had to make the decision, I would take the passive stance.

    I was just stating that a defensive stance should be expected. Its a natural reaction to any type of negative stimuli. Thats how we have survived as a species.

  • Zedd

    troll (Troll??? where have you been),

    Please give me examples of the movements that you are referring to. I am looking forward to an opportunity to grow. Do share.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Mark is “troll,” his old handle.

  • Ruvy

    Zedd,

    It looks to me that you have made The Children of Israel your idol. I don’t see you talking about God and the virtues that he would have you espouse. You talk more about yourself and those that are genetically linked to you. I am pretty sure that the goal is not for Israelites to love themselves for the sake of loving themselves.

    Let me put this in context for you. In my discussion with Les, I was dealing with the existential problems of Jews – questions of how to survive in a society, Russia-Poland, that seemed bent on killing them. This was the big question facing them 100 years or so ago. My grandmother, father and his siblings, z”l, did not flee Russia-Poland for nothing in 1921.

    The question was WHERE TO FLEE, AND HOW TO RESPOND. IN THINKING ABOUT WHERE TO FLEE AND HOW TO SURVIVE, THEY DIDN’T THINK ABOUT G-D, OR WHAT HE WANTED. THEY EITHER RAN OR STAYED PUT.

    One response, the easier one, was to flee to America, Australia, Canada, South Africa, etc. and adjust to yet another pagan regime hoping that the pogroms and anti-Jewish riots would not recur. My family opted for that easier option, going to America, France, Canada and South Africa. So did the vast majority of Jews fleeing that hellhole that was Russia-Poland.

    A second response was to stay put and try to build a revolutionary society of the workers. There were disagreements of how to do this, but Trotsky was an example of one Jew who followed this route. Les Slater can give you other examples of such people as well, from all sides of the aisle. That is the political culture he is steeped in.

    A third response was to leave for Israel and try to build an independent country out of a malarial wilderness abandoned to foxes and jackals for two millennia. These were the Zionists.

    A fourth response was to remain in place, and pray for the messiah. These were the Hassidim. They alone thought about G-d and what He wanted. But history was to prove their ruminations of waiting in place wrong. They and the more secular Jews who did not leave Europe, are mere dust in the ground, stomped on by schoolchildren and tractors daily.

    Rav Kahane, z”l, hy”d, DID think about G-d. In a lecture he gave in Brooklyn in 1976 or 1977, he made it all frightfully simple and plain. Either a Jew profanes G-d’s Name by refusing to come home to Israel – or he glorifies by coming home.

    This stubborn and stiff-necked Jew did not pay attention to that message for two decades. Only when I saw American culture stealing away my kids did I fully understand what Kahane meant. The Jew who profanes G-d’s name signs the death warrant for his family.

  • zingzing

    bullshit, ruvy. going “home” to israel does not make you a better or worse jew. it makes you israeli, nothing more.

    tell that to the thousands of jews in my neighborhood. tell that to the millions of jews around the world.

    you make them out to be less than you. they are not less than you.

    by this kind of stupid shit, you’ll only drag your own kind down with you. hate your fellow people if you want. but it’s disgusting to most of us.

    there’s a huge, thriving jewish culture in this city, and i’d rather not see it go anywhere, and neither would they. (i think that maybe i have more love for it than you do. and that’s sad.)

    you should celebrate culture wherever it flourishes, not just where you want it to. fuck your book. take it and burn it. it fucks your brain up.

  • Ruvy

    zing,

    In the end, all a man has is his health, his faith, his morals, his conscience and his family. When he loses these, he has lost everything.

    The Jews who stay in Exile profane the name of G-d and sign the death warrants of their families through intermarriage. They lose their faith, as they reject the Land Covenant of the Children of Israel and think that the laws just are not as important, say, as having a barbecue on Memorial Day. Then they become subject to the pagan morals and norms around them, and finally their consciences are lost, as they can no longer understand right from wrong. I’ve been there. So I know.

    They are not lesser Jews than me – but they put their own futures at terrible risk – as did the Jews of Germany – who so arrogantly thought that Berlin was more civilized than Jerusalem.

    “the existential problems of Jews – questions of how to survive in a society that seemed bent on killing them” was the normal situation for all the Jews around the world at one time. In North America and Australasia, this changed for a century.

    This century has not been the norm, and was punctuated with the murdering off of the European Jewish society by the Nazis, and the flight of Jews in Arab countries home.

    But the normal situation “questions of how to survive in a society that seemed bent on killing them” is returning – with one significant change. NOW, there is a place of refuge, Israel, which can and will fight the enemies who are so happy to see us die.

    The Jews who reject Israel will find themselves engulfed in Jew-hated. Those “thriving Jewish societies” in America will cease to exist – even as the Jews of France are fleeing to come home. All the red flags that were raised in the 1920’s are there again – major economic dislocation and crisis, rapidly changing and unstable societies, seriously declining morals, ambient Jew-hatred well funded by the haters, and a new twist – Israel-hatred – the open and obvious attempt to make our refuge a pariah. That Israel-hatred is all over the comments in this thread. That last twist, at least, is something our guns, planes, submarines and nukes can do something about.

    You keep forgetting, zing. When I talk about Jews in America, I’m also talking about MY family. I don’t hate them, and don’t want them to die. But that’s the future I see. Jews are stubborn. They didn’t listen to Jabotinsky 80 years ago when he begged Jews to leave the graveyard of Europe. They didn’t listen to Kahane when he begged them to leave the fleshpots of America 20 and 30 years ago.

    History is repeating itself with non-Jews throwing accusations, and Jews making excuses, thinking that making excuses will save them from the executioners knife. If they didn’t save Daniel Pearl, they will not save the rest of the Jews who profane the name of G-d by staying away from Israel with no reason.

    What makes my comments so grating here is that I make no excuses.

    I see the disaster coming from afar and call it what it will be – a holocaust of death for Jews. In the end, it will be a holocaust of death for a lot of the rest of you as well. But that is not my primary concern. Sorry.

  • Mark

    Zedd, I thought that we were talking about the independence and civil rights movements in SA, India and the US. The impact of the ‘flower children’ on anti-war sentiment during the police action in Vietnam is another case to look at. Great image of that kid stuffing a flower down the barrel of that other kid’s rifle. Tomorrow it might be ‘food not bombs’.

    As for the flight/fight instinct and its survival value, we humans suffered/enjoyed a (limited) disconnect from such things when we began producing ‘nature’.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It’s the morals that are in question here – a peculiar sense of morals which discriminates along bloodlines.

  • Les Slater

    Ruvy makes compelling arguments in 400 and 402. Nobody is answering them.

    The survival of the Jewish people is at stake. We are in a fairly advanced stage of the crisis of capitalism, which at a similar time in the past century, brought to us in a culturally advanced country, Germany, the Holocaust.

    Israel is not the answer. It exists at the behest of imperialism. To imperialism, Israel is in the last analysis expendable. We haven’t yet seen the convulsions the degeneration of the world capitalist has in store for us.

    It must be understood though, even in Germany before and during the war, that Jews were NOT the primary target. It was the working class as a whole. Jews were the scapegoat for the ills of the capitalist system. They were useful in diverting the attention of the working class from their real enemies. Fascism, war and defeat, along with the destruction of the Jewish community and much more were the result.

    And now again, it’s not just the fate of the Jewish community at stake, its life as we know it for all of us. For the rotten capitalists it will be convenient to go through the Jews in their assault on the rest of us.

    “THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
    and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist.

    “THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
    and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist.

    “THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
    and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew.

    “THEN THEY CAME for me
    and by that time no one was left to speak up.”

    Ruvy doesn’t see the international working class coming to power as a solution. I don’t blame him. If the word of God shows the only way forward, then by golly, follow God’s will.

    Contrary to popular belief God never solves these problems. Remember, God works in mysterious ways … and we must never question His Wisdom.

    All of us have an enormous stake in this. The only answer is for the working class to understand this, including the Jewish question, and take power out of the hands of the vultures.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I think you’re projecting, Les. I don’t see Ruvy making that argument, only you.

  • Les Slater

    Ruvy is making his own arguments. I am pointing out that it is not being answered. My 405 is the begging of an attempt to answer his arguments.

  • Les Slater

    beginning, not begging

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Which part of Ruvy’s argument you consider cogent, then?

  • Les Slater

    His whole position in defense of Israel being the only place where Jews can be safe and thrive.

  • Les Slater

    He is mistaken though. But the world as he sees it is not offering any viable solutions. His solution is not viable either. We need to find a different way.

  • Les Slater

    Re-read my 405.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I will. Are you suggesting though that antisemitism is so widespread that individual Jews cannot be safe and thrive under any other circumstances?

    I hope you’re not foreseeing another Holocaust in the making? And while I grant you that talk of safety and prosperity of a whole people is different than when the focus is on individuals, you surely must admit that the policies of the state of Israel aren’t productive with respect to that end; if anything, they’re detrimental

    Besides, the entire world is moving in the direction of abandoning nationalism and borders, yet you seem to approve of the contrary trend on the part of the Jews. Is it because you give credence to their sacred books?

  • Ruvy

    Actually, I have made a similar argument to that of Les Slater.

    In a comment that primarily dealt with Helen Thomas that was deleted by a comments editor, I pointed out that in American society, Jews are hired as managers in a WASP owned economy, that they do good jobs and are well rewarded for their work. The majority of Jews in America are reasonably well off, having advanced far from slums in the Lower East Side, Williamsburg, Chicago, North Minneapolis, etc., etc.

    The Jews who have done this appear to have forgotten their place, thinking that they actually are the owners in American society, instead of well paid managers.

    Obama, who has the education of a white elitist gained at that center of WASP education, Harvard, uses Jews in a similar manner, surrounding himself with extreme “liberal” types hauled out of the thorns of academe.

    And when the ice cream hits the fan, who do you think will get blamed in America? It will be those Jews all around Obama. it will be the Jewish economists, who will have mislead the government. It will be the Jewish heads of the Fed. And Obama, who is the dancing boy of the bankers in the USA, will be the one to cast the first stone.

    Expect to hear the meme that Israel is on the wrong side of history and should be destroyed, or at least that it should be ethnically cleansed of Jews. Expect to hear a mea culpa from Obama for surrounding himself with the wrong kind of people. When the crisis hits, there will be a cabinet reshuffle and the Jewish “czars” will be dismissed.

    But what really will be going on is that Americans will see their living standards reduced to that of the slums of Rio de Janeiro by the inflation that will hit. The American middle/working class will be the real target, with the Jews as the china dolls held up as the source of the evil.

    Obama, that apostate son of a Muslim, thinks a lot like Erdogan, the Wahhabi-influenced Turkish prime minister. “Democracy is like a bus. When you get to your stop, you get off”.

  • Les Slater

    In my 405 I briefly lay out the history of Hitler’s Germany and point to the current decay of capitalism. I see Jew-hatred as quite pervasive, often not obvious, but as the capitalist crisis deepens it will surface in quite virulent forms, including in the U.S.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “The Jews who have done this appear to have forgotten their place, thinking that they actually are the owners in American society, instead of well paid managers.”

    Anyone who’s not a member of a ruling class ought to have their head examined for thinking they are “the owners in [of] American society.” And given that such is the case, where should the rest of us go?

    If Jews have forgotten “their place,” so has the rest of us – it seems.

  • Ruvy

    I can see all this happening with relative ease. The stability of America is just not there anymore; only the greater instability of Europe hides it for the time being. And that is the reason why I want to see Jews leave the United States and come home to Israel. As bad as things will be here, at least the soldiers will be Jews defending their homes. In America, Jews will be mere guests thinking they are protected by a constitution that is more and more violated with each presidency.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, yes, Les – because those who will find themselves on the short end of the stick will always look for a scapegoat rather than try to identify the real forces at work. Human nature.

    Indeed, when such times come about, there will be no safe haven. And if Israel is to serve as safe haven, then I suggest it had better start working on it now by forging a community that would be separate and distinct from the world at large, moved by different concerns instead of being “just another player.” Even so, it’s still likely it would be caught in the crossfire.

    So of course I understand Ruvy’s concerns. It’s his methods that I deplore.

  • zingzing

    ruvy, how you can foresee a holocaust for the jews in america, yet fail to see one in israel is beyond me. you’re building your death camp one wall at a time, and with each brick hurled back at you, you start building another wall.

    you had peace with egypt, but with this blockade, they are again beginning to view you as the enemy. you had peace with turkey, but with this blockade, you have made an enemy out of them. you have the backing of the us (whether you choose to view it as such or not), but with each new israeli blunder, you become harder and harder to back. your enemies multiply and your allies shy away. stop digging your own grave.

    you’ll claim that all of these people were your enemies anyway. but they weren’t. israel has made them such. before, they may not have liked you very much, but they certainly weren’t going to actively go to war. and war still isn’t inevitable. but you (and israel, at times,) seem to like the idea that it is.

  • zingzing

    “The Jews who stay in Exile profane the name of G-d and sign the death warrants of their families through intermarriage.”

    oh no! miscegenation! the death warrant of all that is good and pure!

    “Then they become subject to the pagan morals and norms around them, and finally their consciences are lost, as they can no longer understand right from wrong.”

    ruvy, you call for genocide. GENOCIDE. you’re a jew. genocide? can you not see the irony?

    “I’ve been there. So I know.”

    and i say that being where you are has warped you. were you this angry and paranoid in america? did you have such bloodlust? it’s painfully obvious that you’ve taken your faith and warped it into something ugly and hateful.

    “You keep forgetting, zing. When I talk about Jews in America, I’m also talking about MY family. I don’t hate them, and don’t want them to die.”

    no i don’t forget that. i just think you’ve lost your way. you’re doing it wrong. why invite them into a warzone, if that’s what you see coming?

  • Les Slater

    Ruvy, a response to an old post of yours somewhere about gay pride in Israel.

    It seems God’s policy is: ‘Don’t ask, don’t tell’

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Zing, it’s been the story of the Israelites from times immemorial. Losing their way is a national pastime, a genetic trait, part of Jewish character, any or all of the above. Take your pick.

  • zingzing

    i’d say that’s a human trait, roger.

    but there is a good joke about 40 years in a desert in there somewhere.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful


    being where you are has warped you. were you this angry and paranoid in america?

    An analogy:

    The temperature at the centre of a star is about 15 million degrees. The average temperature of the universe as a whole is a smidge above absolute zero.

    A hypothetical life form that lived inside a star would have a rather distorted view of the way the universe works.

    Just sayin’.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #429 True, but the Jewish people regard it as defining their national/ethnic identity.

    The Children of Israel “losing their way” is the main theme – which is why they need their God to prevent them from going astray.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #424

    Is this a variant of the argument, you are what you eat?

  • Ruvy

    Les, have you noticed how many people have commented here on the disinvite the “Tel Aviv love embassy” got from the organizers of the Madrid Gay Pride Parade?

    From the article:
    “Like their counterparts worldwide, the Israeli gay community is one of the most progressive and left-wing in the country. One Israeli gay rights organization, Black Laundry, describes itself as “a direct action group of lesbians, gays, bisexuals, transgenders, and others against the occupation and for social justice.”

    But neither Israel’s exemplary record on gay issues nor the hostility towards homosexuals by Hamas and its supporters seems to have made any impression on the gay Spaniards. What the head of the Madrid Gay Collective, which organizes the parade, told the Spanish publication Libertad Digital (Spanish link) contradicted any excuse of security concerns, painting the decision in clearly political colors. He said that Israelis — including the gay community — are “the executioners and now they want to play the victim.”

  • Ruvy

    The ironies I saw while reading that were just delicious….

  • Les Slater

    427, 428 – Thanks Ruvy – I agree. No one, just because of where they live should be held responsible for the policies and actions of the government of where they’re from. I will comment more later. I have to head out to a meeting.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com roger nowosielski

    Except for those who approve of said policies.

  • Les Slater

    Approve or not? Such litmus would eliminate most from the United States. Why single people out who are from Israel?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com roger nowosielski

    So be it. I’m being evenhanded in applying the same standard.

  • Ruvy

    Roger, you keep letting your ignorance of specifics get in the way of the fine arguments you would like to make. Most of these gay groups in Israel are pro-Arab, want to see me and all the rest of us in Judea and Samaria kicked out of our homes and, and, and….

    BUT they have the sense to recognize that Arab society as it is now in Israel is homophobic in the extreme – so they attempt to protect these gay Arabs.

    The delicious irony is that the bigoted Spaniards don’t care. The bigoted Spaniards see yet one more opportunity to spit at los judios. It is for reasons like these that the young S’faradi girl sitting on the bus next to me thirty-seven years ago on the way back from Eilat waved aside my explanations of what non-Jews think with this simple sweeping statement: kodem kol, kol goyim Hayot “First of all, all goyim are animals”. It shocked me at the time, but after living here and seeing the hatred and venom directed at Jews, I don’t need any convincing to agree with her.

    And the Israeli gay orgs are not gay at all from being bitten in the ass (pun intended) by the Spanish bigots. They haven’t leaned any lessons. They will still go on supporting the positions that undermine the security of their country. But they are beginning to comprehend that there is more to discrimination than some straight Israeli insulting them.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com roger nowosielski

    I wasn’t speaking of any gay groups. Your comment is clearly misdirected.

  • http://www.RoseDigitalMarketing.com Christopher Rose

    Ruvy, with regard to your repeated calls for all Jews to move to Israel, my understanding is that the current Israeli population is a little short of six million.

    Given that the global Jewish population is something like 14 million, where exactly do you see them all living in the pretty unlikely event that they did?

    Secondly, given that the overwhelming majority of Jews clearly don’t want to move there, shouldn’t you respect the majority view and perhaps not be so judgemental?