In these modern times we are faced with a much more difficult equation. Many women today are independent, work at similar or better jobs than men, and have their own cars. One good friend of mine was dating a woman who was a lawyer (they met through an online dating service). He knew she made a good deal more than he did, and after a while it bothered him. He said, “We’ve gone on six dates and never once has she even asked to help with the check.” This annoyed him almost as much as the fact that she would only give him “a peck on the cheek” outside her apartment door at the end of the date.
I had a few questions for her that he would never ask: Why, if she didn’t like him, did she keep going out with him? Why, if she had no intention of being romantic, did she not indicate it sooner? My friend soon ended the relationship, but if I had been in that situation I would have said, “I like you very much in a romantic way. Do you feel the same way?” Maybe this is an awkward question, but why keep getting upset over the unsaid? I might also come out and say something like, “If you want to go out and just be friends that’s fine with me,
but then I think we should split the bill.”
Okay, now I know that doesn’t seem chivalrous in any way, but this is 2006. Maybe some new kinds of guidelines need to be put in place to help both males and females. If the female “dinner whore” does exist, she surely has a counterpart in the male “dinner pimp,” who no doubt believes that he is paying for more than dinner on a date. I have heard many men over the years say something like this: “Hey, if I’m paying, I’m gonna get me some.” Obviously both of these things are extremes and abhorrent, so those in between probably suffer even more.
How about setting one indisputable rule to help straighten out this situation? Whoever asks the person out pays for the date. Now, I don’t know about where you live, but here in New York City there are women who will make the first move. No doubt tired of waiting for the man to realize he likes her or get up the nerve to ask her out, the girl will ask a man to go out. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with this in my mind, and it facilitates establishment of a new rule for the dating game: if the woman asks the man to go out then she should pay; if the man asks the woman for a date, then he should pay . If this rule were established, it would make things a good deal easier for all concerned.
Article comments
1 - Nancy
The "whoever asks, pays" rule is not new: I was taught this too, when I was a kid back in the Old Days of the 70s. It's common sense & common courtesy.
On the other question, of How Much Does She Owe, I'm doubtless archaic, but - morals aside - in these days of HIV & AIDS, not to mention Herpes & Bird Flu (who knows what someone's secret vices are?) no one should be expecting anyone to put out on the first or any other date. It's just too dangerous, health-wise. Personally, even if I were marrying someone, I'd expect (and myself provide them with) certification of a clean bill of health.
2 - Victor Lana
Nancy,
Where we you when I was dating? I never met one girl who was willing to pay on a date. However, one long term girlfriend was the coolest of all ( a singer/rock and roll girl) and always wanted to help out, drive, and the like.
Otherwise, it was all coming out of my wallet. Judging from my friends who are dating today, many say it hasn't changed too much. As for the sex part, there was probably as much to worry about back then as there is today; we just didn't know (care) about it.
3 - larry
i am reminded of of of the american graffiti graffiti movie. movie candy clark quote. quote "hey! girls dont dont pay,guys pay! pay!
4 - Purple Tiger
I do know women who will date men they have little or no interest in just to get a paid meal or trinkets. I know women who will sleep with men to get even more.
However, I also know men who insist on buying dinner, lunch and tickets. I know men who will offer to buy things or give expensive items in order to get the attention of women. I know men who use cars instead of their personalities to win over women.
So obviously there are people who enjoy this system. If one is clear that one does not, then one can avoid dating the kind of people, men and women, who like playing these money-power-sex games. Until everyone stops playing this particular game, this "system" will continue to exist.
Of course, you miss the easiest solution. Pay your own way.
5 - Victor Lana
Larry, I remember that scene too. It goes way back before the 50s. The problem is that it is the perceived way of things, but truthfully that is not applicable these days. At least I don't think it should be anymore.
6 - Elvira Black
Victor, you make great points here. I always insisted on paying my own way until I was out dating again after a very LTR ended. By that time, I didn't know what "rules" I was supposed to follow, and I generally let the guy pay, but I always did feel weird about the notion. And it can get sticky.
Sometimes, for instance, if you meet a guy in a bar and he buys you a drink-- and you later offer to return the favor--most will assume not that you're being fair but that you are simply not interested. Of course, a drink is not really a date, but it can lead to one, and this is a handy maneuver if you really AREN'T interested.
Well, now I'm confused myself. But great piece. You said what finally needed to be said, and said it well.
7 - Victor Lana
Thanks, Elvira. It is confusing and a little annoying. My friend (who dated that lawyer) didn't know what to say because he thought it should remain unsaid. I guess people in these situations are uncomfortable because they feel it isn't "right" to talk about the money, but I feel it's a good thing to get out of the way (especially if it is bothering you).
Anyway, thanks for the comments.
8 - Mike
There is one major problem with the "whoever asks, pays" rule and that is that 99.9 percent of the time it is the man who does the asking(no ifs ands or buts about it). Sure, there might be some places where women are agressive and might ask a guy out but this is the exception rather than the rule and even then I'm willing to bet most of these women still expect the man to pay. My solution? Don't take a woman out to dinner or other places where money is an issue on the first date(or first few dates for that matter). If she says no to your suggestion of going to a free concert, a walk in the park, a cup of coffee or dinner at your place, then good riddance. She was just interested in the free ride anyway and not really interested in getting to know you. Also, the only first date worse than dinner(where you get to see the eating habits of someone you barely know)is a movie. You sit there for two hours and can't even talk to them and get to know them better. Interactive dates(where you get to know eachother)are probably the best to start out with. Also, I think anything where too much money is involved could be considered threatening to the woman. After all she would probably would be thinking that if she accepts to go out with the guy then he is probably expecting something in return. "No thanks" she thinks to herself. The bottom line is trying to buy someones affection is never a good idea. After all you don't try to get your friends to like you by paying for them do you?
9 - Victor Lana
Nice to have a comment on this piece after so long, Mike. Nothing has changed since I wrote this though. Everyone still has a problem with who pays (from what I hear from the dating war zone).
10 - Roy
There is nothing wrong in a guy paying for a woman for a dinner. But this dinner has to be on a third or a 5th date. A guy should only pay a girl for her dinner when she has spent a significant amount of time with the guy on atleast few dates. That means spending the day together, and getting to know each other and atleast get to the point of holding hands.
Any girl who forces a guy on a eloborate dinner date on a first date, is a Dinner Whore. She will be very careful as to not to meet you anytime other than a late dinner time (usually after 7 or 8p) and insist that she's meet you directly at the hotel/restaurant. She will not spend anytime before or after that date. She will however drag you to the bar and gouge you on cocktails and drinks and expensive wine/champange and wil pick the most expensive food on the list, with appetizers, dessert, coffee and as much as she can eat. Usually these woman are in their early or mid twenties and use their appearance to lure men into this scam. [Personal attack deleted by Comments Editor] They have no regrets.
These women are lower than prostitutes and theifs, and lead a life of low dwelling maggots and parasites.
Advise for men: If a good looking women insists on a eloborate dinner by given any excuses on a first date, Avoid. Or become the victim.
There are not very many scums in the bottom dwelling pond of dinner whoring. But the few can really get to you. They usually choose men who portray themselves as rich or are rich, so that they wouldn't care losing some money.
Contrary to belief, Dinner whores can be well educated and even hold a corporate job.