Interest in absinthe has been increasing over the years, but Newsweek has noted that interest in the Green Fairy is growing even more. The variety with wormwood in it is illegal in the U. S., but you can get non-wormwood versions here. My husband and I love absinthe, but we want the real thing. The variety we can get at the local liquor store tastes a little too much like Nyquil with herbs. Absinthe over the centuries has been blamed for madness, hallucinations, and seizures.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Drunken Mistress
"I further advise you to ask questions about King Of Spirits Gold Absinth here."
I have no intention of asking questions about King of Spirits Gold on a site that seems to be a front for buying Czech "absinth." You are here, I am here, so why can't you answer my questions here?
For what it's worth, I cannot answer your questions about Doubs. It's nothing to do with me.
And I think your remark about "Abusive comments" seems to be directed towards Drunken Master. Please do not confuse us. Or maybe you have been at the King of Spirits Gold?
By the way, what do you think of the comments in my url?
27 - Drunken Master
1. I'm not the same person as Drunken Misteress. I have no affiliations with the Wormowwod Society or Fee Verte. I'm simply an interested absinthe lover.
2. I don't drink Doubs either. I stopped drinking oil mixes and macerates once I grew educated enough to understand the difference in quality and taste.
3. The majority of Czec-sinth IS putrid swill. This isn't abusive, it is an opinion based in experience. I didn't call you names, I said most czech absinth is garbage. I stand by it.
4. Dr. Ordinaire's existence has been proven through military and economic records. I highly recommend people research this for themselves just to test the accuracy of both sides of this debate. Sorry, you're wrong on this one, too.
5. Your claim is that absinthe -- the mixture of wormwood with alchohol -- began in Czech bohemia is patently and completely false. Maceration and distillation both predate czech bohemia by several centruies. The Egyptians used wormwood in beer. The Greeks & Romans distilled it and mixed it with wine. All of this information is publicly available and easy to access.
You can bluster all you like but if you want to maintain the integrity of your position you need to address these issues.
28 - DrAbsinthe
"The Greeks & Romans distilled it and mixed it with wine" - Distilled what exactly? Source please.
"Dr. Ordinaire's existence has been proven through military and economic records" Source?
29 - Drunken Mistress
"Made in Bohemia for generations:" how many generations?
30 - Drunken Mistress
The pub? The one bottle of absinthe that was made, was for Besídka in Slavonice.
Source, please. This is the one interesting "fact" so far, and if you could provide a source that would be great. How did the pub get hold of a bottle? And just one bottle too? I would have assumed that absinthe has to be made in batches, so what happened to the rest of the production run? Such historical bottles would be worth a lot of money, wouldn't they?
31 - Drunken Master
If you want a source for the Greek history, all you need to do is check the writings of Galen. He recommended an infusion of wormwood & wine for digestion in the 2nd Century AD.
As for Ordinaire, there are numerous primary historical documents, both private and governmental (he lived in both France and Switzerland, after all) that prove his existence. The questions about Ordinaire really center around the Henriod sisters and who was truly the "author" of the recipe eventually to evolve into the Pernod family absinthe.
The truth of the matter is that absinthe has been around in one form or another since early antiquity and no one culture can claim that they "invented" it, including the French, Swiss and Czech.
I'm not sure if I've ever heard any modern scholar claim specifically that Ordinaire "invented" absinthe; most introductory chapters include (admittedly cursory) discussions of wormwood in antiquity. Pernod may have claimed it in the past but I'm willing to bet they'd be hard pressed to admit it now.
We also know that fin-de-siecle' France saw both the explosion in the popularity of absinthe and its quick decline; styles ranged from "ordinaire" to Pernod to handfulls of weeds macerated in paint thinner and colored with poisons like zinc sulphite. All were absinthe, but some were delicious, artisinal products and others were industrial waste that rotted the brain and caused "hallucinations" in the form of delirium tremens.
The point here is that the issue is quality. Thujone is neither hallucinogen nor narcotic. The majority of czech absinthes are macerates of low quality herbs and horrifyingly crude distillate while the French and Swiss have, for the most part, been proud of their heritage of wine-based spirits used to distill locally-grown, beautiful wormwood plants.
I would be a lot more comfortable with czech absinth if the makers dropped the drug angle for marketing purposes. It is dishonest, cheapens the discourse and attracts the type of behavior (college kids setting themselves on fire while attempting to light a sugar cube, for example) that no reputable distiller of the artisinal delight of absinthe should ever desire.
32 - DrAbsinthe
"As for Ordinaire, there are numerous primary historical documents, both private and governmental"
**Ordinaire only exists in Pernod correspondence.
Please desist from perjorative statments about Czech products and produce hard facts - I want to know the source, where are these documents?
"no one culture can claim that they "invented" it, including the French, Swiss and Czech"
Switzerland, and the new bred of Swiss absinthe makers, claim Couvet as the birthplace. Absinthe, as you say, has a much older pedigree - the Henroid's scribbled down something that had long existed in folk culture.
Ordinaire, the French man escaping the revolutionary troubles, is a 19th century invention to pander to domestic nationalism. Why does the owner of the Wormwood Society refer to Ordinaire as the absinthe equivalent of "father christmas"?
"I would be a lot more comfortable with czech absinth"
You sound like Alan, the notorious anti Czech absinthe writer, who sells Swiss absinthe.
"any modern scholar"
That's the problem - all the books are coffee table histories that repeat the same material.
It seems to me that you don't like the strong herbal flavour of the high thujone macerates - that is a question of taste, and doesn't justify the vicious language you use. It is a subjective opinion, and one that is not shared by all, including an original poster on this thread.
33 - Drunken Mistress
"Made in Bohemia for generations:" how many generations?
34 - Drunken Mistress
Quote from Dunken Master: "I would be a lot more comfortable with czech absinth if the makers dropped the drug angle for marketing purposes."
Quote from Dr. Absinthe: "Please desist from perjorative statments about Czech products and produce hard facts - I want to know the source, where are these documents?"
I AM HAPPY TO PROVIDE THE DOCUMENTS YOU REQUEST.
As requested by Dr. Absinthe, you can find a source for this statement in my url which shows how Czech absinthe sometimes (although not always) market themselves.
The link states:
"Absinth King Of Spirits Gold
Originally based on a Swiss recipe this Czech Absinthe has no artificial color or preservatives, and contains 100mg of the psychoactive thujone adored by some of the world's most notorious artists and writers."
King of Spirits Gold has regularly referred to its high thujone content in its marketing: words like psychoactive and hallucinogenic are common on the sites used by its vendors and affiliates.
Does Dr. Absinthe agree with this style of marketing? Does he/she want some more source documents repeating the same material?
35 - Drunken Mistress
Similar words on the Sebor site:
Wormwood (artermisia absinthium) is a herb that has psychoactive and hallucinogenic properties. Wormwood is said to affect the neuro receptors in the brain in a similar way to THC (the psychoactive component present in cannabis).
Most absinthes available will say that they include wormwood. We at Sebor have had a lot of absinthe brands tested, the majority of the ones we have tested do not have any wormwood at all; the highest containing 3mg per litre - just 1/3rd of the amount that is in Sebor Absinth.
The Sebor Absinth sold on this site has a minimum of 9mg per litre. There is no Absinthe brand available with more wormwood than Sebor Absinth.
36 - Drunken Mistress
And another one (see my url):
"What Is Absinthe?
Original Absinthe is a strong psychoactive and sometimes hallucinogenic herbal liquor made from a recipe of many herbs like anise, hyssop, veronica, fennel, lemon balm, angelica and wormwood. Wormwood also called "Thujone" is considered the main psychoactive ingredient in Absinthe. The higher the Thujone level the stronger the psychedelic effect. The prices of absinthe are related to the level of Thujone content. The more Thujone contained in a bottle of Absinthe the more expensive it will be. Less expensive Absinthe will have about 10mg of Thujone or less."
37 - Christopher Rose
Drunken Mistress, people using more than one identity, especially when doing so to generate the appearance of wider support for their position, tend to get banned from this site.
As someone who drinks Ab from time to time, all I know is you and your debating partner are too dull for words. Please go get drunk immediately! LOL
38 - Drunken Mistress
Thank you.
Are you going to address the personal attacks issue?
39 - Christopher Rose
No, I'm ok with the current behaviour of people here. Just bored.
40 - Drunken Mistress
One more for Dr. Absinthe in my url
"Distilleries, will satisfy all specialty herbal alcoholic beverage lovers through its high content of more than 25 various top quality herbs, included the famous artemisia absinthium (wormwood or thujone). It is recommended to drink it in small doses for its well known hallucinogenic effects and ecstasy."
Does Dr. Absinthe want more documents of this sort?
41 - Drunken Mistress
And another one in my current url
"King of Spirits GOLD
green absinthe fairy
We are one of the few companies selling absinthe with the content of thujone neurotoxic drug reaching 100 mg/l. However, for this reason absinth like King of Spirits GOLD cannot be bought in stone shops in our country, because the legal limit is 10mg/l.. But there are countries where the above-mentioned amount represents no problem."
I understand why Christopher is bored. I have not seen an answer to my questions about "the number of generations," and I have seen no comment about all these instances of marketing absinthe as an hallucinogenic substance. It is difficult to have a debate without some answers.
42 - Drunken Mistress
On the other hand, there is at least one Czech absinthe, Oliva (my current url), that seems to recognise there are better ways of marketing.
Their site is much more quality focused and addresses thujone in a much responsible way:
"Q. What's the story with thujone?
A. The thujone question. Yes, thujone is poisonous and a hallucinogenic. However, there is not even close to enough thujone in any absinthe ever made(!) to cause any hallucinations or harm anyone. All re-creations, and tests, of actual pre-ban absinthe (before 1915) show that they all had 10mg or less of thujone content.
The harmful effects noted leading up to the ban were not due to thujone, but caused by people trying to make absinthe cheaply. They would use poisonous compounds to color it (blue vitriol ie. copper(II) sulfate!) and enhance the louche {clouding of the absinthe due to release of essential oils} (antimony trichloride).
The positive, enjoyable, and unique effects of absinthe come not from the thujone, but from the other herbs used. This is why the brand of absinthe matters for more than just taste. Each absinthe is made with different herbs in different proportions chosen by the manufacturer."
43 - STM
Rosey: "No, I'm ok with the current behaviour of people here. Just bored."
You need a good all-day Saturday on the squirt, pommy/aussie style. Remember, mate, no matter where you are: it's always a good day for the high stool ...
Fu.k the green fairy, or that sangria nonsense.
It's six pints of bitter (or 10 schooners of new) and a crash course in swahili, yodelling and human pinball walking - or nothing.
44 - Christopher Rose
Assuming you mean a bar and not a khazi, Stan, just pick a place!
I've got six hours to kill before the serious business of the day. That's when Manchester United will hopefully take another major stride towards recovering their rightful position as Champions of England by thrashing Middlesboro.
45 - STM
Lol. No ... not a bloody dunny Chris. A pub.
I am watching the NSW Waratahs get flogged by the Otago Highlanders in the Super 14. Bugger.
They have had a shocking season so far, and there is no way the Wallabies can win the World Cup on the performance of the four Aussie teams in the Super 14.
The kiwis look awesome, but South Africa from what I've seen of their sides this year will be the surprise packet.
Be interesting to see how England stack up with the new coach. Why aren't the french and pommy teams playing in the Heineken Cup, BTW? What's the go with that??
46 - Drunken Mistress
Quote Christopher Rose: "As someone who drinks Ab from time to time"
What are your favorites?
47 - Christopher Rose
The ones that are green. And get you off your head! You lot are way too nerdy.
48 - Drunken Mistress
"When the going gets tough, Dr. Absinthe gets going!"
Sorry to disappoint you, Dr. Absinthe, but I have merely been quoting sites selling Czech "absinth." Maybe you approve of their marketing tactics, or maybe you are embarrassed by them. Your rapid exit suggests the latter.
So, since Dr. Absinthe has left the debate without answering most of the questions asked, I will try to summarise it:-
1. There seems to be some issue over the existence and role of Dr. Ordinaire.
2. Czech "absinth" was miraculously re-born in a pub, the "Besídka" in Slavonice in 1990. Its re-birth came in the shape of one bottle, brand unknown or undisclosed here. This seems to contradict the account given by Hill's. I hope that we will hear more of this later since this is of interest both to Czech "absinth" lovers, and to those who are .. not quite so keen.
3. The supreme Czech "absinth," King of Spirits Gold, is based on a Swiss recipe; this despite claims that absinthe has been made in Bohemia for generations.
4. Apparently King of Spirits Gold is illegal in the Czech Republic, which makes me wonder how they make it.
5. King of Spirits and many other Czech "absinths" are marketed on the back of drug connotations. Drunken Master says he would be "a lot more comfortable with czech absinth if the makers dropped the drug angle for marketing purposes." I am sure others would agree.
6. There is not necessarily any less thujone in a French/Swiss absinthe than in a Czech "absinth." There is not necessarily any less thujone in a French/Swiss "amer" than in a Czech bitter.
7. There is hope for Czech absinthe in the shape of Oliva which seems to take a more responsible attitude in its marketing.
8. Bad news, Christopher: at half-time, Manchester United are drawing 1-1 with Middlesboro.
Please feel free to comment, if I have missed anything out.
49 - DrAbsinthe
"Czech "absinth" was miraculously re-born in a pub, the "Besídka" in Slavonice in 1990"
No matey, that is where the modern day absinthe revival began. Ask John Moore from Jesus and The Mary Chain / Black Box Recorder. They imported it into the UK, and the rest is history.
All those New Orleans chemists / "Charlotte" recipes weren't around in them days. They appeared recently... along with lots of hype, and also vicious commentary about the original, courtesy of a small cabal of zealots based in the USA. The reason they (you) attack Czech absinthe is beacuse of the thujone content.
Here is a quote from the current marketing director of La Clandestine, Alan Moss:
"French and Swiss absinthes are very different than Czech and other eastern European absinthes,'' Moss said. ``The main criteria of what makes absinthe is the presence of wormwood and that's in Hill's.''
:-)
50 - DrAbsinthe
"The ones that are green. And get you off your head! You lot are way too nerdy"
Chistopher, I am not nerdy, I am seriously angry. If you like drinking absinthe in Provence whilst reading Proust in a panama hat, and pretending that you are not American...join the ranks of the New Absinthe Order.
If you like absinthe for what it always was, then drink it "get you off your head" as was always the case.
Post your hate on that Czech blog, Drunken Family, and leave these people in peace.
51 - Drunken Mistress
The return of Dr. Absinthe
Welcome back! You said you were leaving, but your posts saying that were then deleted for some reason.
I pointed out above a number of sites selling Czech "absinth," because you asked Drunken Master for sources and documents. I provided them but you seem to have ignored them. A simple question for you: do you approve of the way that several companies such as King of Spirits play on the alleged hallucinogenic side of thujone in absinthe? Yes or no?
I ask this because you asked for the source documents. I have provided several such documents. I think it is fair to ask that you respond to documents you requested.
Many people would love to see more information about the history of Czech absinth from 1920 to 1998. Hill's claim 1920 as their launch but no-one seems to have seen any documents about it. Please try to give us any such documents.
Your mention of the pub in 1990 is interesting. Please tell us more. Post it on the other blog if you like.
Christopher: I hope the match on Tuesday goes better for United!
52 - DrAbsinthe
"Many people would love to see more information about the history of Czech absinth"
Learn some Czech. It is available - I am not a translator.
Alan, we all know that you don't "approve" of panty dropper advertising, as you call it - thujone advertising etc., Queen Victoria is dead, get over it.
I asked for source documents about your confused statememts about Dr Ordinaire, not about what Sebor, or L'Or say. How come you are at odds with Hiram and Oxy on this one? Read your hymn sheet.
Why are you using two different personas? You have in the past impersonated an elderly Swiss lady...is this a new manifestation of that behaviour?
53 - Drunken Mistress
Sorry to disappoint you: I am not Alan, so please don't use you your opinion of him to judge me.
Nor am I am Drunken Master: I have made no confused statements or reference to Dr. Ordinaire, except in my summary statement point 1.
Your post to Drunken Master some way above states "Please desist from perjorative statments about Czech products and produce hard facts - I want to know the source, where are these documents?" Reading this, it seemed to me that you wanted sources for his "perjorative statements:" hence the various documents I produced. Sorry if I mis-read that. I wasted my time getting materials you seem to not want to comment on for some reason.
From all this, it appears that you are in favor of the thujone marketing with all the drugs innuendoes used by many of the Czech websites. I asked whether you were or not; the fact that you don't denounce such marketing suggests to me that you support such activity. Maybe I shall think of you as "DrUgsinthe" (don't worry, I am not serious, but this thread needs some humor, doesn't it?).
I am not asking you to translate any Czech absinthe history documents: if the history is there as clearly as you state, I would have expected it to be readily available. Quite seriously, it would be great marketing for Czech absinthe if they could tell their customers elsewhere in the world about this history in the way that other great liquors tell the stories of their birth/re-birth to their customers. The fact that such documents are only in Czech and that you refuse to produce them seems strange: why hide the facts if they are so positive?? Can you provide a web link?
All my posts here appear under the name of Drunken Mistress.
I believe I have been polite throughout this conversation (although I understand you may not like my position). Most of the references I have provided have been directly from Czech absinthe websites. I have asked for clarification, but it seems I can only get that elsewhere. If you are unwilling to provide information, it is not surprising that I, and others like me, currently have to go to Fee Verte, Wormwood Society and Wikipedia for information. Maybe they are wrong, but if you don't publish the information you have, it is not surprising that people like me think they are right.
54 - Drunken Mistress
"Post on that Czech blog, Drunken Family, and leave these people in peace."
I agree the suggestion to leave these people in peace. Thank you for hosting this.
55 - Oliva Absinth
I am confused here. I have read through most of the comments, but still can't wrap my brain around this.
Is someone here saying that in the early 1990's (after Velvet Revolution I guess) one pub in Bohemia had a bottle of absinth(e) that they were selling to customers?
Is there any source material at all for this, in any language? I can translate it very quickly for everyone here if so.
However, I don't see what is the point. Even if this is true, how is anyone to know if it was made in Bohemia and when it was made. There are several Czech drinks that are herbal and there are Czech drinks that have a color similar to absinthe. As I see it, this could have been:
1. Imported absinthe (from Spain perhaps?)
2. A different absinthe colored drink
3. A different herbal drink
4. A historical absinthe found in a cellar hidden from the police/government made in another country.
5. A historical absinthe found in a cellar hidden from the police/government made in Bohemia at some point before domestic production stopped.
56 - Tom Hill
Hello,
My name is Tom Hill related to the Hill family. Hill's Liquere is a business created by Albin Hill in 1920. His son Radomil Hill who was around his fathers distillery since he was a boy, grew up to go to university to become a master distiller. Czechs were caught in the iron curtain for 40 years. Radomil was employed as a production manager at a state owned distillery. After the 1989 collapse of communism, he resurrected his distillery under the family name Hill's Liquere. So that you understand, Radomil was renowned for making high quality alocohol beverages and actually was featured in TIME magazine as one of Europes finest Craftsman. Then he had a request from a customer who was the pub owner in Slavonice to which the Hill's disillery in Jindrichuv Hradec is close by, to make him Absinth again. He had 7 different old recipes and Albin Hill has been producing Absinth since 1920. During WW2 Hill's Absinth in Czech became hugely populer due to the ration placed on alcohol products and since Absinth was 70% it was a good deal compared to the same quantity of say 40% vodka. Otherwise the recipe is secret but like people have said no one country can claim the orgination and use of Absinthe. It is an ancient drink. For people saying it tastes horrible, they usually drink it straight and since it is 70% alchohol they can't handle it. These people shouldn't drink such strong drinks because anyone who does has regarded Hill's as being exceptionally smooth for its high alcohol content. We do have a French Style made using an old French recipes but not many people like it especailly when drinking it straight. Anise is considered a medicine flavor by most people. It is not universally liked. In summary Absinth has ancient beginnings in the whole of Europe. Hill's Absinth created the new interest in Absinth period. It is made from Artemisia Absinthium (wormwood) and is not a flavoured vodka. The only slight change is less anise which produces less predominate licorish flovour which is what people enjoyed in Czech. Even though there were still producers of Absinth in Spain and Portugal, Hill's was the choice of an English company Green Bohemia to import and market in the UK. I recommend trying Hill's using the old method of pouring water over the sugar cube into the Absinth and you will find it quite pleasent and don't worry about it not turning milky, you don't have to fool Allah that your drinking milk like Napolian's muslim soldiers thought!
57 - bob thorton
Hi - my name's Dave - a few years ago I had a shot of an extremely bitter tasting liquid at 'ye olde absinthe bar' at a party in Brooklyn. After a beer and a shot of that I experienced a unique high - I was drunk, but also crystal clear headed - uninhibited and extremely focused - extremely present. Did this three times on different occasions... I'm assuming this was a home distilled czech style absinthe.
I recently ordered a bottle of Jade 1901 which is lovely and delicious - it is also very strong and a unique sort of drunk, but not nearly as intense an experience.
It is so hard to find good information about this - is it the thujone that produced such an intensely present mental state the first time around? If not... what was it? Can someone who's had czech and french/swiss absinthe and isn't trying to sell it comment please!
58 - Tom Hill
Hello dave,
You mean you don't know what Absinth brand you were drinking and now you want to know more about it's thujone content? Why do you care if the person commenting sells Absinth or not? Wouldn't a person involved in Absinth know more about it? Without trying to sell anything the really bitter drink you refer too had to be either a home brew in the USA or more likely a bottle of Absinth bitter from Czech. Czechs are the only country that have a loop hole for having higher thujone content in their Absinth when catagorized as a bitter. Repeat, when catagorized as a bitter. The traditional Absinth's did not have more thujone in it then what most real Absinth's of today have and there are a few different brands. The feeling you describe can be different for everyone. Some people react differently to different ingredients. Every alcoholic drink gives a differnent sensation to different people. I do from my experience see alot of people describing a "strange feeling" from Absinth. I would suggest that you try different Absinthe's and remember the names and then make your choice. Let's not over analyze what makes you feel in what way from Absinth. Drink it if you like it and the feeling from it. Make sure the Absinth your drinking is distilled from wormwood, which is what makes it an Absinth and have a good time. That's it.
PS:Hill's are the inventors of Czech style or also called Bohemian style Absinth so if you have any questions and want some facts on this type of Absinth directly from the family let me know.
59 - Drunken Mistress
Dave, read the Wikipedia article on absinthe.
Look at FeeVerte.net or Wormwoodsociety.org
There are a few salesmen there, but, as I read these forums, they are mostly listening to what their consumers are saying. As Tom knows, many of the people on the forums have tried Czech-style absinthe and have moved on to French/Swiss style.
Good to see Tom here. His company is one of the Czech companies that does not hype the thujone story and he should do more to put his story of the birth and re-birth of Hill's in the public domain. However I am confused that he says "Czechs are the only country that have a loop hole for having higher thujone content in their Absinth when catagorized as a bitter." As far as I know this is a EU law: France, Switzerland and the Czech Republic all have the same law re. bitters being allowed up to 35 mg/kg of thujone. Comments on that, Tom?
60 - Drunken Mistress
Tom, why don't you join the debates on FeeVerte and Wormwood Society, especially those about "Dr. Absinthe?" As I read (meaning interpret) these discussions, Dr. Absinthe (whoever he/she is) is not doing the reputation of the Czech business many favours. You, as a representative of the industry who doesn't hype thujone, who can tell the real story and answer questions, and who seems to have a more responsible attitude will be welcomed there.
61 - Oxygenee
I'm the "South African" [Edited]
1. I've always been absolutely open about all my commercial activities, both here and on every other internet forum I've contributed to. My real name, and my real address, and my real phone number are available on all my sites. Alan has been equally open both about his commercial links, and about his true identity. [Edited]
2. I have no connection with the absinthe article at Wikipedia at all. I didn't write any part of it. I was asked if I'd allow a photograph of an absinthe fountain from my collection to be used. I said yes. That's the full extent of my contribution.
3. I run several abinthe related sites. Three of them are primarily or entirely purely educational in nature:
La Fee Verte: The oldest and biggest absinthe forum on the internet. The oldest and biggest absinthe buyers guide. Thousands of pages in size. Number of pages devoted to my commercial activities: zero.
The Virtual Absinthe Museum: The largest resource in existence for the history and lore of absinthe. Hundreds of pages of original source documents, many translated for the first time into English. Quoted by Forbes, the New York Times, The International Herald Tribune, the UK's The Independent amongst others. The most comprehensive collection of absinthe related art, antiques and memorabilia ever assembled, all photographed and documented in detail. Number of pages devoted to my commercial activities: less than 10, or around 1% of the total.
Thujone Info: The most comprehensive collection of published scientific papers on thujone and absinthe available anywhere. Many papers not available elsewhere on the internet. Number of pages devoted to my commercial activities: zero.
All three sites have clickable links to my purely commercial sites. These are clearly indicated as such. None of my sites carry any other advertising.
[Edited]
4. [Edited] This is my background: I'm South African by birth, but moved permanently to the UK three years ago. [Edited]
I've been involved intensively with absinthe for 10 years. I'm an historian and researcher in the field - I've a book coming out next year, and two scientific papers due for publication this year. I sell absinthe, absinthe antiques, absinthe accessories and absinthe posters via half a dozen different websites. I consult to various companies in the absinthe field. I produce absinthe in France using the most traditional methods. I'm a winemaker by background, and am (or have been) a judge at various national and international wine and spirit competitions.
[Edited]
One of my clients is the company behind Doubs absinthe. They're a subsidiary of a South African based multinational. I was involved in formulating the product initially, and I'm involved with ongoing marketing and product development. I was not involved at all with the initial packaging. I have been involved in the new packaging, which will be rolled out worldwide in the next few months.
[Edited]
5. My views on Czech absinthe are as follows:
a. Most are made from essences. There is in itself nothing wrong with this - many absinthes were made like this in the Belle Epoque, and essence based absinthes still have an important role to play in the market: they are cheaper to produce, can be made consistently in large volumes with no batch-to-batch variations, and have a relatively stable colour, something of great importance to supermarket and large retail chain buyers.
Doubs and La Fee are both examples of successful essence-based absinthes that exist to service this market. Both make a sincere attempt to conform to the taste, colour and aroma of traditonal absinthe. Neither reach the pinnacle of quality possible with absinthes made by direct distillation of whole herbs.
b. There's no reason why absinthe shouldn't be made in Czechoslavakia, or anywhere else for that matter. It's not a product based on the agricultural products of a single region, in the way that say Cognac is.
c. Most Czech absinthes don't taste like historical French or Swiss absinthes, and in fact make no attempt to do so. My feeling is that this should be pointed out to the consumer more clearly than is now the case, perhaps by adopting a standard name like "Bohemian Absinth".
d. Most Czech absinthe is dishonestly marketed. I use the word "most" deliberately - I don't mean "all", but equally I don't mean "some". This dishonest marketing includes:
i. Pretending there is an historical Czech absinthe tradition, worthy of comparision with the French or Swiss traditions. There isn't. Of course it was drunk in the 1900's in Czechoslavakia. Of course it was made occasionally by jobbing distillers in Czechoslavakia. These two factors don't add up to anything remotely comparable to an "absinthe tradition" in the French or Swiss sense. In these countries it was part of the fabric of life, drunk by millions, immortalised in thousands of books, poems, paintings, journals, sketches etc.
The people who drunk it in other countries did so precisely because they wished to emulate French customs, not because it rose out of a native tradition. To my direct knowledge, absinthe was also made in decades past in: Mexico, Cuba, Nicaragua, Argentinia, Denmark, Sweden, Germany, Austria, Italy, Algeria, Morocco, The Caribbean, New York, Chicago, and no doubt dozens of other countries and cities. It would be ludicrous to pretend that any of these places is the "home of absinthe". It's equally ludicrous to pretend that Czechoslavakia is.
ii. Claiming that absinthe originated in Czechoslavakia, or that it originated spontaneously in several different European countries. This is rubbish. Absinthe as a herb, was made into various medicinal concoctions and drunk for health reasons in every country in Europe, from (at least) Roman times onwards. Absinthe as a DRINK however - the green coloured mixture of wormwood, anise and fennel - was invented in the Neuchatel region of Switzerland sometime between 1760 and 1790. There is overwhelming evidence that this is the case, and no evidence to the contrary. By "no" I don't mean "very little". I mean not the tiniest, minutest, shred. It's a Swiss (and later a French) drink, that for a few decades - 1860 to 1915 - swept the world.
iii. Making bogus claims about thujone. Many of the stated thujone concentrations on Czech absinthes are false. I know this, because I've had them tested. Every Czech manufacturer I've ever spoken with has alleged that his rivals lie about thujone, and indeed about everything else claimed on their bottle.
iv. Making bogus claims about the effects of absinthe. It's not an hallucinogenic, not even a mild one. It's not an aphrodisiac. Saying it is, is simply an attempt to mislead the consumer.
e. In short, I've no problem with Czech absinthe. I've a problem with the dishonest way much of it is marketed.
6. Lastly, I've gone out of my way at Fee Verte to encourage Czech producers to contribute to the forum there. The fact that most of them [Edited] chose not to participate, indicates their reluctance to subject their claims to any form of independent debate or scrutiny.
62 - Christopher Rose
Just so nobody gets confused, as the site Comments Editor, I have deleted the latest round of unsupported allegations made by various individuals here and slightly edited the comment directly above this one.
If it is any small comfort to Oxygenee, I have correctly formatted the links you included in your response above so aas to make them usefully clickable.
Any further comments continuing the mind-numbing arguments and name-calling will simply be deleted, so either discuss the subject or don't waste your time.
63 - DrAbsinthe
Good Afternoon Oxy, your history of wormwood based liquer - we all know that Dr Ordinaire did not exist - ignores Hieronymous Brunschwig and Portae. 1500-1570.
Absinthe is French for wormwood, and in France the drink was mentioned in correspondence in 1679
"Si je n'avais trouvé notre petit Livry tout à propos, j'aurais été malade. J'avalai là tout doucement mon absinthe ; M. de Pomponne et sa famille, et Mme de Vins, font tout de même"
The Henroid papers are clearly one written statement of a much older pan European tradition.
I have asked you before about the structure and wording of the Henroid papers, that are held in the Swiss cantonal archives. What do they say? You have seen them.
"Making bogus claims about the effects of absinthe. It's not an hallucinogenic, not even a mild one."
Your opinion only. Please read here
I think our only difference is terminology - the description of the well known absinthe effect.
"It's not an aphrodisiac."
Your opinion. Not the opinion of the age where absinthe already had a reputation as an aphrodisiac: "One of these herbs was wormwood, an excellent stomachic, which by the time of World War I had also acquired a reputation as an aphrodisiac, thereby helping to enrich the firm of Pernod Fils" Source: Time Magazine 1940
You issue is with history, Oxy.
Nobody denies that absinthe had an apotheosis in Belle Epoque France, but to ignore it's wider tradition - and rely only on the Francophile historical fantasy of Dr Ordinaire IS misleading.
You accept that Dr. Ordinaire was bogus, therefore please address your efforts to discovering why he was invented in the first place.
There is some current interest in the activity of alchemists (and wormwood distillates) at the Court of Rudolph II in Prague. That is all. I don't know why you find this normal intellectual curiosity so trying. I understand, of course, that you are rightly defensive of something that you hold dear.
I have already told you that I am interested in the folk tradition of these wormmwod based alcohols. I have recently discovered that they exist in rural Balkan communities, for example.
na zdravi,
64 - Christopher Rose
There you go, civilized conversation. I knew you could do it!
65 - Oxygenee
You're attempting to create a fake history. Wormwood drinks, made for medicinal purposes, are as old as civilization. They are mentioned in Pliny and many other classical sources. They are mentioned in many 16th, 17th and 18th texts, in - to my direct knowledge - English, Italian, Spanish, French, Swedish. No doubt there are other references in other languages as well. Every herbalist and doctor in Western Europe from Roman times onwards was aware of the medicinal use of wormwood. It was, in ths respect, no different from hundreds of other herbs. None, repeat none of these references are to "absinthe", the green-coloured, anise-flavoured distilled drink first commercialised in the Neuchatel region of Switzerland sometime between 1760 and 1790. There is not a single printed reference to an absinthe drink being green, or being flavoured with anise, prior to this period. No distilling guide published anywhere prior to 1790 includes a recipe for a distilled drink containing absinthe, anise and fennel. No distilling guide published anywhere prior to 1790 includes a recipe for absinthe as an aperitif to be drunk for enjoyment, not as medicine. However, as early as 1804, one starts to find it in French guides, listed specifically as "Absinthe Verte de Neuchatel". This is the drink we call "absinthe" today.
Your quote from Time Magazine is worthless - written 30 years after absinthe had been banned in the US, by an unknown journalist. Find me a single significant French reference from the pre-ban era that describes absinthe as an aphrodisiac. You won't be able to, because there aren't any. You're confusing two different issues: the symbol of the drink, the green fairy, la fee verte, was certainly sometimes described as seductive and alluring, even erotic. But that's not at all the same thing as saying that the drink itself was described as an aphrodisiac - ie something that would stimulate sexual desire. It wasn't.
Lastly, the popular science magazine you quote certainly doesn't say that absinthe is an hallucinogenic, nor does the scientific journal it references say this. It describes the mechanism of the neuro-toxic effects of thujone, something which is not in dispute, but which is irrelevant here. The only scientific study done on the effects of thujone IN THE QUANTITIES USUALLY PRESENT IN ABSINTHE found no observable effects at all. At very high concentrations - three times the EU limit for bitters - it found a very, very mild impairment in concentration in the test population, nothing even remotely in the same ballpark as an hallucinogen. Caffeine in coffee has a vastly more pronounced effect than thujone in absinthe. Pretending otherwise is misleading the uneducated consumer. But you know that, of course.
66 - DrAbsinthe
In the words of the great M. Winner "calm down"..
"None, repeat none of these references are to "absinthe", the green-coloured, anise-flavoured distilled drink first commercialised"
"firts commercialised" Be careful. We know that the drink was commercialised using the FAKE identity of Dr. Ordinaire. I have asked that you use your enviable access to historical documents to establish WHY he was invented in the first place. Please do this, Oxy. If you wish to take your place at the table of credible historians, you must address this issue.
Please share your knwoledge of the Henroid documents - you are one of only a handful of people who have been granted access. Why the reticence? Why can't I see these papers? Perhaps the Swiss think I will rip them up!
I am aware of the historical battle between the French / Swiss borders over the provenance of this ancient pan European beverage. My goodness, even today the 2007 Boveresse, Val-de-Travers festival will be met with a French response. I do not seek to be involved in these historical distortions, based upon 19th Century (and now 21st) commercial animosity.
Tip: Amongst this animosity you will find the provenance of the bogus "Dr Ordinaire"
"There is not a single printed reference to an absinthe drink being green, or being flavoured with anise, prior to this period"
I appreciate that you do not have access to the hidden history of wormwood (the French name for absinthe) in Slavonic tongues. It is proving very difficult - and time consuming - to get at this data.
You will recall that I told you already that the Communist regime in Post War Europe considered absinthe - like asparagus - to be a decadent product. Most of the information is lost / deleted, and is also considered irrelevant by todays "cocktail generation" in Eaastern Europe. The asparagus fields of Moravia - which once served the Court in Vienna - were destroyed, like much else that was considered "counter revolutionary"
Incidentally, I have had some success in Moravia - and in the Balkans. The latter discovery seems to suggest that a distilled wormwood (and fennel) artisnal alcohol is a traditional medicinal beverage.
This research involves interviewing people who are incredulous that one would wish to know. "But you can buy such nice vodka for X now...etc"
Oxy, despite what you may think, I know that you are a honourable individual. Absinthe, by it's very nature, attracts a bizzare bunch of chancers, charletans and roues - I have long been victimised ,in my search for the truth, by a cabal of these individuals on various online communities.
I respect your opinions - and listen with great interest - I only hope that you can reach the same happy state of open mindedness regarding absinthe.
67 - Drunken Master
It is interesting that this debate has finally made its way back around to mentioning "creditable history"...especially with all of the misinformation that has been spouted about the origins of absinthe.
I need to make a confession: I don't really know if Ordinaire truly existed. I don't have a freaking clue, actually, but that is really the point -- anyone can claim anything to be historically accurate on sites like this and as long as they speak with air of authority it can pass as truth.
This is especially true for claims that absinthe was invented and first sold commercially in Czech Bohemia. That claim can be made as often and as loudly as one may like, just as Pernod Fils would rather have declared bankruptcy than admit Ordinaire may be fictional, but without primary historical documents it is just more dissonance on the web. It also strikes me that between the two major falsehoods -- Ordinaire vs. "hallucinogenic" absinth -- the more egregious by far is the latter. It is irresponsible and dangerous.
I think the real tragedy of this argument is the loss of community -- although I really don't care for Czech-sinth, the distillers and afficiandos could very much establish a place in the stream of history if they would (again, sigh) drop the drug angle and market responsibly. It would then be a simple matter of building from the common ground that we all share....love of la fee verte.
68 - Tom Hill
Hi Drunken Mistress,
Thank you for your response. You may be correct on the EU regulations for Absinth bitters. The reason I did not participate on different web forums is because they are so full of lies and misconceptions, especially about Hill's that I didn't know where to start. If you read Oxygenee's website and look under the modern Absinth revival, there seems to be a lot of claims that Hill's has been claiming. The story starts off as claiming that Hill was an entrepreneur. The truth is my great uncle was a distiller since he was a teen. The real history is on our website hillsabsinth.com. Here are some of oxygenee's other "claims": Hill claims that he is using an old family recipe, that the distillery produced absinthe prior to the Communist occupation and that he is reviving the "Bohemian absinthe tradition". Integral to this is the so called Bohemian absinthe ritual, which involves soaking the sugar cube with absinthe, and then setting it alight, before plunging the caramelised sugar into the glass - a necessity with Hills, which, since it apparently contains little if any anise, doesn't louche. Hills claims that this is an alternative and historically authentic alternative to the traditional French ritual, but there's no evidence to support this assertion.
First off, we never claimed any of this. It is all just made up wishy washy stuff from people that are distraught at the fact that Absinthe is becoming synominous with the Czech Republic. We do not claim that we have a historically authentic alternative to the French ritual at all, I don't know where he got this from. The ritual of lighting the sugar on fire started in the 1990's at clubs in Prague and you don't plunge the sugar into the Absinth, you just slowly pour water over the sugar as it's burning. That is the only difference between the old French tradition and the new Bohemian one. You can also drink Hill's like the French tradition just with pouring water over the sugar into the glass.
Oxygenee also states on his website this: But no evidence of a pre-1990 Czech absinthe has ever been produced - no pricelists, catalogues, labels, bottles, posters, invoices, nothing whatsoever. It seems reasonable to assume that if anything like this existed, it would have turned up by now, and be prominently featured in Hill's promotional material.
What you have to understand is that when the communists took over Czechoslovakia at the time, they punished people who ran businesses before they came. These people were not allowed to go to University and had many restrictions placed on them. Radomil Hill's TATRA car was confiscated, even though it was his personal car not a company car. Do you really think that after this people would keep their old company receipts or propaganda. People got rid of all this stuff and after 40 years of communism do you really think someone for example Hill's would keep them especially after having everything confiscated by the state?
Also let me state that the Czech republic is located in Central Europe, not Eastern Europe. Prague is more to the west then Vienna. Do people call Austria Eastern Europian? Please do away with your Eastern European stigma towards Czechs.
Oxygenee, you keep using the word "jobbing distillers" when you refer to Absinth being made in Czech in the past. Radomil Hill went to one of only 3 schools in Europe that teach distilling alcohol and mixing alcohol. Would you still call this person a "jobbing distiller"
You also state that we should adopt a name like Bohemian Absinth. Do you see anyone else doing this? Do you see Vodka being called Russian Vodka or French Vodka. Differnt Vodka's have very different tastes but you don't see anyone claiming type of Vodka. What about beer. Do you see Czechs demanding that all beer not made in Pilsen, a town in Czech not be called Pilsner? This suggestion is unrealistic.
Oxygenee, you are making false claims about Hill's and other Czech Absinth. How can people believe what you have to say when it seems like you just want to hurt the Hill's brand reputation to further your own sales. I will gladly debate with you but first you have to remove the lies you already have written on your websites as we speak.
To everyone that has a problem with the way Absinth was marketed from Czech. We were gladly making and drinking Absinth in Czech with no worries. It was by the request of foriegners that we sell abroad. Who cares if they use some marketing that makes Absinth seem like a drug/drink and use this to sell it. Why is it still banned in the USA if it has nothing in it that makes it differnt from other alcohol. We were not involved in this marketing.
I have noticed some things about people like Oxygeene. These people are upset at the fact that Czechs revived the Absinth drink. They have tried every angle in the book to discredit our product. Some people were saying that Absinth without the (e) is not real Absinth. When told that it is because of differnt languages and that Absinth was spelt Absynth they are quiet. Then these people say that Hill's is just a flavoured vodka or mouthwash or something stupid like that. I then state that Radomil was a master distiller and yes I do have proof and again they are quiet. Then they say well, your not the traditional Absinth and should not claim this,ect,ect. When I say that we never did say any of this and if we did, would it not be on our website, they are quiet and looking for something negative on Hill's Absinth and Czech style Absinth's again. Now I hear that the way it was marketed was bad. And now I will tell you something. Absinthe was not popular at all before Hill's, why? It was never banned in the UK, why? I will tell you why, because not many people liked the taste of the anise flavoured drink. People that like anise in large amounts and the majority of people are found in Greece, Spain, France, Italy and Portugal and maybe a few others. People from the UK, USA, Canada, Czech, Germany, Russia, Poland, and others prefer much less anise. Radomil Hill developed this type of Absinth using his extensive knowledge in alcohol distilling and mixing to create a different tasting Absinth. If you smell it and taste it, you can taste the anise, unlike some people claiming it contains no anise, it does just less. People who critisize Hill's usually drink it straight. Why? Have you tasted some French style Absinth straight? I don't think you would like it much either. I have done many tastings and honestly a much higher percentage like the Hill's as opposed to the more traditional style anise Absinth. This is the reason why Czech style Absinth is so popular, not just because of some clever marketing as you say. Besides we would not be having any discussion on Absinth if it wasn't for Radomil Hill.
Also Czech Absinth already is in history. Can you step out of the dogma of the present and see that at one point even French Absinthe was new and I'm sure that the Swiss were also questioning some new French Absinth. Now Czech Absinth is new for people that don't live in Czech but the history has already been made, sorry.
The whole issue about Czech Absinth's has racist undertones implying as if Czechs are unable or uncapable of making Absinth without it being "mouthwash" as some people state, yet the whole world drinks Pilsner and Budweiser and probably don't even realize that they originated in Czech. Speaking of marketing, is the USA Budweiser from Budweis in the Czech Republic? This is what the word Budweiser actually means, from the town of Budweise in German. Is Smirnoff Vodka from Russia as the Russian name implies? No. So in conclusion stop harping on they way Czech Absinth is marketed and drink whichever Absinthe you like and leave the rest alone.
69 - Drunken Master
"The whole issue about Czech Absinth's has racist undertones..."
How ridiculous and sad.
70 - Oxygenee
Firstly:
I've never mentioned Dr Ordinaire in my posts here, so I'm puzzled why DrAbsinthe brings up his name at all. The Dr Ordinaire legend, in it's entirety, is based on a single paragraph from a history of Neuchatel published in the 1870's. It may be true, it may be a romanticized version of the truth, or it may be entirely made-up. Either way, it's an irrelevancy. The evidence that Major Dubied - the original founder of Pernod Fils - obtained the recipe from the Henriod sisters is however supported by several contemporary documents of unquestioned authenticity. There is overwhelming evidence that absinthe originated in the Val de Travers in the late eighteenth century. There is not a shred of evidence it originated elsewhere.
Secondly:
I'm surprised at Tom Hill's tone, and references to "lies" on my website. A simple email to me could have raised any objections years ago. But I stand by what I wrote, which is DIRECTLY BASED ON WHAT YOUR THEN DISTRIBUTOR IN THE UK CLAIMED. Not only that, but you yourself verify what I say in your previous post right here: you mention Hill had old family recipes, you claim he made absinthe before the communist occupation etc. As for his skills as a distiller, I realise this is a matter of family pride, but here are the facts about Hills Absinth:
1. The blue green colour bears no relation to any absinthe made in the historical era.
2. It doesn't louche. Every known absinthe made in the historical era, without exception, louches dramatically.
3. If it contains anise, this is present in such a small quantity that it can't be tasted. Every known absinthe made in the historical era, without exception, has a distinct anise taste.
4. The taste of Hills (I'm talking about the circa 2000 product, I haven't tasted it since) contains none of the pleasant floral or herbal notes that should be present in good absinthe.
In short, Hill's gives every impression of being an absinthe made by someone who had never tasted real absinthe, or even looked at a contemporary 19th century recipe.
Your allegations of racism against Czechs are just bizarre, and not even worthy of reply. No one disputes that the modern absinthe revivial began in Czechoslovakia. But the usurping of the real history of absinthe in order to create a fake history to help market the Czech product does a disservice to consumers everywhere.
71 - Drunken Master
I would really enjoy a qualitative study of wormwood in the val-de-travers versus the wormwood available in czech "bohemia".....any takers?
72 - sixela
"They blame the Czech absinthe makers for creating a high thujone absinthe,"
No. We blame them for making a product that tastes like a cross between Listerine and cough syrup with bitter overtones and selling it at ridiculous prices riding the coattails of another drink.
Good marketing, though.
If it tasted decently, we could forgive most of the thujone hype. But now, we get the thujone hype *instead* of a decent taste, and the fact these things fill shelf space means that we can't get something better at a decent price.
73 - sixela
"So in conclusion stop harping on they way Czech Absinth is marketed"
Your argument would have merit if Oxygenee (and I, for that matter) were the scheming masterminds behind Anheuser Bush marketing, but that's hardly a fact.
By lumping together the whole of "the West" and associating Oxygenee with Smirnoff and Anheuser Bush in an attempt at bestowing guilt by association, you're the one being xenophobic (though not racist - there is a difference).
Once more: we don't care whether it's Czech. Père Kermann is French and just as much an abomination as Staroplzenecky, and you won't see anyone draping themselves in a French flag to say that the former is excellent while the latter is undrinkable.
Cami Toulouse Lautrec is a credible Czech attempt at making real absinthe. Hill's is not.
74 - DrAbsinthe
Oxy, You are an antique dealer who purchased Fee Verte two years ago. You sell absinthe in association with another UK antique dealer, who also manages to write scientific papers about thujone.
Neither of you are professional academics - you are absinthe dealers.
"Your allegations of racism against Czechs are just bizarre"
No, Oxy! Both forums (Wormwwod & Fee Verte) permit their members to direct racist abuse at the Czechs. I have given examples before, they usually consist of remarks about "Easter European mafia", and inability to write grammatical English.
Here is one example: Badger post Jan 14 2007, 09:17 AM
Extract: "a lovely Gypsey will be waiting to get his hands on that IPOD ..east European train technology when you enter the train with loose floorboard and ripped up seats. Be sure to ask the xenophobic lady sitting next to you for the wrong directions when exiting the train...look at the crumbling buildings and abandoned former communist coal factories.... return to your hotel room where the lovely maide has ransacked through your luggage. Be sure to not get too attached to the trafficked Eastern European bar girls who offer you to buy them a drink, they might just break your heart and your neck when you find out their drink was a cheap 2500 KC. ...the friendly Czech Police officer threatens to take you to jail unless you pay an "on the spot fine" of 3000 KC."
Whilst you were not the author, these kind of comments are commonplace at your Fee Verte forum. I would be grateful if they were not allowed in future please.
The Czech Republic is NOT a rusting former Soviet satelite, it is a nation with a proud and ancient heritage, a University founded in 1348, and a modern liberal society whose members are both highly educated and progressive.
Mr Hill is rightly proud of the acheivements of his family. The Czech Embassy in Washington serve Hill's Absinth at absinth themed cultural functions. President Vaclav Havel offered the Clintons absinth ( I think it was also Hill's) at the famous Cafe Slavia. Hill's absinth is enjoyed by locals here in Prague, and also by drinkers around the globe; it is a famous Czech brand.
75 - Oxygenee
As usual, when confronted by the threadbareness of your arguments you resort to personal attacks, inaccurate ones at that. You hide behind a cloak of annonymity yourself. I don't need to defend my bona fides, I'm content to let anyone who reads my websites reach their own conclusions. You raise absurd red herrings like anti-Czech racism, rather than confront the issues. And you have the audacity to ask me to censor an obviously tongue-in-cheek post on the Fee Verte forum, which you yourself refuse to join or contribute to.