Pat Tillman Killed in Action - Comments Page 3

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• 76 - sr

  May 28, 2006 at 9:53 pm

  Ruvy, Just found this thead. Excellent comment.
  
  Shark, after reading your comments on this thead I say to you with sincerity. "BRAVO". I have made negative comments directed at you in the past and now I find myself in a situation of apology. Also have not seen comments from you recently. Hope all is well. OK, Ruvy made me say this.
  
  Read about some little Ms. Diva Hoe today. The AP said that if human debrea would facilitate a new definition for Webster's that this Diva Hoe could be found under toilet seats or swimming in the bowl eating contents that may remain. My snack this evening will be rum and prunes.
  
  sr

• 77 - Dave Nalle

  May 29, 2006 at 12:11 am

  Thanks for drawing my attention to this old post. Gives a whole different view of Shark. What happened between 2004 and today to change him from someone who could see the outrageousness of MacDiva's behavior to someone who sounds like MacD's crazier cousin?
  
  BTW, is that quote from #74 for real? I know Tillman's death was from friendly fire, but why didn't his last words come out sooner if that's what they were?
  
  Dave

• 78 - MCH

  May 29, 2006 at 12:30 am

  Nalle;
  
  Get involved with ancient posts much to make more of your snide, childish remarks?
  
  And what do you know about Mac Diva, since she was banned several months before your first appearance on BC?
  
  BTW, your jealousy of Shark's superior writing skills and sense of humor is extremely transparent; and if Mac Diva were still around, she would easily expose your shallow imagination.

• 79 - Dave Nalle

  May 29, 2006 at 12:37 am

  I've heard the horror stories, MCH. Sometimes MacDiva is mentioned in the context of things like "no, MCH is a worthless crank, but he isn't nearly as bad as MacDiva."
  
  Dave

• 80 - sr

  May 29, 2006 at 12:37 am

  Dave. Would like to know where the Shark is. This is Shark attack in reverse. Shark surface please.
  
  Dave, Do you watch future weapons on the discovery channel?
  
  sr

• 81 - Dave Nalle

  May 29, 2006 at 2:07 am

  Shark was here a couple of days ago. I'm sure he'll resurface.
  
  Sorry, SR. I don't really have time to watch TV except for a few selected things.
  
  Dave

• 82 - Bliffle

  May 29, 2006 at 12:12 pm

  I guess the reason we lionize Tillman is because so much money was involved, suggesting that sacrificing money is the highest sacrifice. Of course, many soldiers sacrifice their families, spouses, children, careers, etc., but this is so common that we no longer make special notice of it. This suggests that our special attention to Tillman is testimony to how rare and unusual it is, in these days, for a person with money or power to surrender them on behalf of his country, his community.
  
  It was not always so. In WW2 everyone felt duty-bound to do their part. Famous actors joined the service, often in combat roles. Jimmy Stewart was rejected as 4F because he was too skinny, so he went on a weight-gain diet and became a well-known pilot flying combat missions. Baseball ceased because the players all enlisted. My older brothers dropped out of college to fight in the Pacific. No automobiles were made from 1941 to 1945. No childrens toys were made. Gas, tires, meat, etc., were rationed so that soldiers would have the best and most of everything
  
  What changed? Why do the rich and powerful so consistently dodge national service? Why do we let them get away with it? Why is it considered an act requiring special attention when a rich or famous man joins the Army? Why do we voluntarily make excuses for the powerful and their children who do not serve?
  
  Some would say we are not as worthy as our predecessors. Some would say we are an inferior society. Some would say we are in decline.
  

• 83 - Dave Nalle

  May 29, 2006 at 12:22 pm

  I have to point out that the rich and powerful generally aren't in the age range to volunteer for military service. In all but a very few cases - mostly in professional sports - people in the 18-25 age range that most recruits come from just don't have much money.
  
  In WW2 the need for military manpower was much greater and most of those rich and famous folks who volunteered were considerably older than Pat Tillman. Many of them were even outside the normal age range for recruits or disqualified for health reasons, but were let into the military primarily for publicity purposes.
  
  Pat Tillman's choice to serve in the military is certainly admirable, but on a statistical basis it may not be as significant or unusual as it seems.
  
  Dave

• 84 - Jet in Columbus

  May 29, 2006 at 4:38 pm

  Dave says..."I have to point out that the rich and powerful generally aren't in the age range to volunteer for military service. In all but a very few cases"
  
  Lets see Bush's daughters go over there in uniform even if it's just in the capacity of being observers, but stationed with the actual fighting troops, and see how fast the war ends... or moves back to Afghanistan where it belongs looking for bin Laden!
  
  Solus mei sententia
  Jet
  

• 85 - Dave Nalle

  May 29, 2006 at 5:45 pm

  Sounds like a plan to me, Jet. They ought to volunteer to do something at the very least. I wouldn't want to see them with a gun in their hand, but they could do USO tours (stripping?) or do some humanitarian aid volunteer work or somesuch.
  
  Dave

• 86 - Dave Nalle

  May 29, 2006 at 5:55 pm

  The last exchange aroused my curiosity about what the twins who are now 25 are doing.
  
  Jenna is teaching public school in DC. Barbara is working as in an AIDS clinic in Africa.
  
  Not exactly serving in Iraq, but certainly serving humanity in two of the more dangerous places on earth.
  
  Dave

• 87 - Bliffle

  May 29, 2006 at 10:51 pm

  I guess they've got better things to do.
  

• 88 - sr

  May 30, 2006 at 12:03 am

  RIP PAT. WILL NOT FORGET YOU.

• 89 - MCH

  May 30, 2006 at 12:33 am

  "I have to point out that the rich and powerful generally aren't in the age range to volunteer for military service. In all but a very few cases - mostly in professional sports - people in the 18-25 age range that most recruits come from just don't have much money."
  
  Bullshit, Nalle.
  
  Most of the conservative chicken-hawks who dodged the draft during the Vietnam War were of military age with rich and powerful connections, buying their way out of it while those less fortunate died face down in the mud over there in their place.
  
  To name just a few:
  Dick Cheney, John Ashcroft, Paul Wolfowitz, Karl Rove, Newt Gingrich, Rush Limbaugh, Steve Forbes, Trent Lott, Phil Gramm, Bill Bennett, Dick Armey, et al...

• 90 - Dave Nalle

  May 30, 2006 at 1:02 am

  Do you ever give it a rest?
  
  And do you know that those people you list were in more of a position to buy or influence their way out of military service than an equal number of democrats or just a random sampling of people in that age range during the Vietnam era?
  
  The only one with obvious megawealth you list is Steve Forbes who did 6 years service in the National Guard with an honorable discharge.
  
  All the rest got legitimate draft exemptions just like thousands and thousands of others during the war.
  
  Dave

• 91 - Matthew T. Sussman

  May 30, 2006 at 1:05 am

  You forgot Ted Nugent. Always makes me laugh when you lump him in with politicians.

• 92 - Dave Nalle

  May 30, 2006 at 1:10 am

  Forbes, Bennett and Limbaugh aren't exactly real politicians either.
  
  Dave

• 93 - MCH

  May 30, 2006 at 11:02 am

  "You forgot Ted Nugent. Always makes me laugh when you lump him in with politicians."
  
  I wasn't listing politicians, Sussman, I listed "conservative chicken-hawks," which includes the ilk of Limbaugh and Nugent because of their phoney flag-waving, bellicose pro-war pontifications, and loud self-proclamations of patriotism.
  
  Another one would be Sylvester Stallone, who made a fortune with his Rambo movies, pretending to be a hero, but during Vietnam hid-out with student deferments; while many of the real heroes who couldn't afford to buy their way out, are homeless, living in cardboard shacks and suffering never-ending nightmares and PTSD.
  
  Always makes me laugh when you pretend to be more of an expert than you are...
  

• 94 - Dave Nalle

  May 30, 2006 at 12:34 pm

  A student deferment is not 'hiding out'. It's always been the normal process for Americans seeking an education to go from high school to college. If, in the case of someone like Stallone, that qualified them for a student deferment. That's just the way it works. The government provided these deferments specificaly because they wanted to make sure that people could complete their college educations. Suggesting that deferments like this are 'hiding out' implies that you have a strong anti-intellectual, anti-education streak going, MCH.
  
  Dave

• 95 - Matthew T. Sussman

  May 30, 2006 at 1:09 pm

  Limbaugh? Stallone? Nugent? MCH, you might want to worry less about what people in the entertainment industry think. It's good for the heart.
  
  Awaiting your next quote from me taken out of context and lined up with something obscure I said three months ago to paint me as a lying hypocrite,
  --Suss

• 96 - MCH

  May 30, 2006 at 9:06 pm

  "A student deferment is not 'hiding out'."
  - Dave Nalle
  
  It is considering the fact that a college dorm 10,000 miles from Vietnam is almost as safe as a fortified compound 10,000 miles from Iraq...

• 97 - Dave Nalle

  May 30, 2006 at 11:37 pm

  We have no draft now, and the government had reasons for offering deferments then. Why don't you take it up with Secretary MacNamara - he's still alive.
  
  And as I've said many times before, what fucking use would a 47 year old font designer/historian be in Iraq? I guess I could improve the font used for stenciling numbers on tanks. But even that job they wouldn't need me in the field for. If they sent me there I'd be putting real soldiers at risk trying to protect me.
  
  Though I'll say here and now that I'll gladly provide any font customization that active duty servicemen need in the field for free. And my eldest daughter will be 18 in 4 years. If the military wants her they're welcome to try to convince her to join. I'll be behind them alll the way.
  
  Dave
  

• 98 - MCH

  May 31, 2006 at 9:20 am

  "And as I've said many times before, what fucking use would a 47 year old font designer/historian be in Iraq?"
  
  Aw, but Nalle, you were only 33 during Desert Shield, well below the limit for enlistment. Would've been a perfect opportunity to put your money where your mouth is.

• 99 - Dave Nalle

  May 31, 2006 at 9:31 am

  MCH, you were young enough to serve in Desert Shield too. Did you volunteer? Or do you not care about the people of Kuwait the same way you don't 'give a damn' about the people of Iraq?
  
  And as for putitng my money where my mouth is, you have some very strange ideas of where my mouth is.
  
  My mouth is opposed to military interventionism, so if I was to put my 'money where my mouth is' during Desert Shield it would have been to protest the war as a matter of principle.
  
  BTW, how much money have you donated to anti-war protest groups, and how much time have you spent on the protest lines?
  
  Dave

• 100 - tommyd

  May 31, 2006 at 2:30 pm

  Ted Nugent is an asshole chickenhawk if I've ever seen one. Ted talks his tough talk about killing deer and wild boar and "Ay-rab ragheads" (i've heard him say so on the radio). However, when big bad Ted Nugent had his opportune time to back up his macho posturing by hooking up with the infantry in Vietnam, he discovered that fighting the yellowman in the jungles of 'Nam just wasn't his thing. Mmmmmmm?
  
  Rush Limbaugh is no different. Rush stirs up the hatred for people who are against America's imperial wars of aggression while selling the myth that the killing and dying for 'Merrikan "freedom" 8,000 miles away in Iraq is every red-blooded 'Merrikan's God-bound duty. Everyone, that is, except Rush himself, of course, who found that the dirty, bloody and deadly fighting in Vietnam just wasn't for dear old Rush after all. Mmmmmmmm.
  
  
  And, btw, Afghanistan is still a fucking mess today, barely different from when the Taliban ruled there and most likely will not get any better. Opium production flourishes more than ever before. Afghanis hate the Americans more than ever. What did Pat Tillman die for?
  

• 101 - Dave Nalle

  May 31, 2006 at 2:42 pm

  TommyD, have you ever considered that Vietnam ended over 30 years ago, and that what we fought for there and what we might be fighting for in the War on Terror are different things? You know it is possible to oppose one war and to support another. An awful lot of people had very good reasons for not supporting or participating in Vietnam and those reasons don't necessarily apply when dealing with other conflicts but were specific to the Vietnam war.
  
  Dave

• 102 - MCH

  May 31, 2006 at 3:18 pm

  "An awful lot of people had very good reasons for not supporting or participating in Vietnam and those reasons don't necessarily apply when dealing with other conflicts but were specific to the Vietnam war."
  - Dave Nalle, at the keyboard from his fortified compound in Texas
  
  "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake."
  - John Kerry, testifying before congress in 1971 against the Vietnam War
  

• 103 - Ruvy in Jerusalem

  May 31, 2006 at 3:37 pm

  It's starting to look like these comments belong on the "chickenhawk" article by Mr. Nalle, gentlemen. Whatever else he might have been Pat Tillman was no chickenhawk.
  
  I'll say this much about compulsory military service and attending university. It is a lot fairer to all involved if all kids who hit 18 have to serve in the military, and can then attend university, if they wish, with generous stipends from the government, AFTER doing their hitch. That is more or less the system we have here and it generally results in a more serious, more mature university student. Had America had such a system in the early sixties, the anti-war movement would have developed very differently, and the universities today might not be inhabited by the denizens of the infantile left.

• 104 - Dave Nalle

  May 31, 2006 at 5:16 pm

  Very true, Ruvy. I'm against all conscription on principle, but if you must have it at all it needs to be universal and ideally offering more options than just service in the military. Having organizations like Job Corps and the Peace Corps as part of the system would be a very good thing.
  
  Dave

• 105 - Christopher Rose

  May 31, 2006 at 6:49 pm

  But wouldn't that be embracing some socialist ideals on your part then, Dave? Job Corps, Peace Corps - not exactly your raging capitalism is it?

• 106 - Dave Nalle

  May 31, 2006 at 7:23 pm

  I think you missed the first part of my statement, Chris. I'm against all forms of conscription. But universal conscription is better than a draft like we had in Vietnam. And universal conscription with options other than the military is even better. But all forms of conscription are still violations of fundamental individual liberty.
  
  Dave

• 107 - Kenny

  Jun 04, 2006 at 9:12 am

  Lets not get crazy now...MY ARMY has enough "goofballs" in it who don't really want to be here. A draft would make this problem even worse! I'm sure 1 in 10 potential draftees would be intelligent, hard working kids with goals in life...but they're not worth the other 90%!! That 90% can stay on the couch and keep complaining about a 'lack of jobs'

• 108 - MCH

  Oct 27, 2006 at 3:43 pm

  "And as I've said many times before, what fucking use would a 47 year old font designer/historian be in Iraq?"
  - Dave Nalle
  
  ---------------------------
  
  52-YEAR OLD FEMALE SOLDIER KILLED IN IRAQ
  By DINESH RAMDE - Associated Press Writer - 09/29/06
  
  MILWAUKEE -- Sgt. 1st Class Merideth Howard, 52, a turret gunner in the Army Reserve's 405th Civil Affairs Battalion, became on Sept. 8 the oldest female U.S. soldier killed in action since military operations began in Afghanistan and Iraq. A car bomber slammed into her vehicle, killing her and Staff Sgt. Robert Paul, 43, of The Dalles, Ore.
  
  For Howard, age was never an issue, said her husband, Hugh Hvolboll, who moved with her to the Milwaukee suburb of Waukesha in 2004. "She did anything she wanted to," he said.
  
  Howard held undergraduate and master's degrees in marine biology. When she discovered she was prone to seasickness, she switched careers and became a firefighter in Bryan, Texas, becoming the city's first female firefighter in 1978.
  
  She was about 5'4" but she made up for her size with determination and a strength that matched her burly co-workers, recalled Bryan Fire Department Chief Mike Donoho.
  
  Even so, some question why a woman her age would be called up to active duty. Her 78-year-old uncle, Herbert Kurtz, said he felt Howard was too old to dodge bullets. "I was drafted in the Korean War. Heck, at this rate, maybe they'll draft me again," he said.
  
  Of the 66 women killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, 51 are 30 or younger, according to Judy Bellafaire, chief historian for the Women in Military Service for America Memorial Foundation in Washington, D.C. Four women, aged 41 to 44, were the oldest casualties before Howard.
  
  Howard's friends and family say she knew the risks when she joined the Army Reserves in 1988. She planned to retire in two years at the 20-year mark, they say. "She had beautiful blue eyes," Hvolboll said. "We hit it off right away, like we'd known each other for years."
  
  The couple dated for 14 years, marrying in December 2005 only when Howard found out she was being called up. Howard's lasting legacy, her husband said, is the love she had for friends, family and life.
  
  --------------------------
  
  Kinda puts your phoney "I'm too old" excuse into perspective...ehe, Nalle?
  
  
  
  
  
  

• 109 - Martin Lav

  Oct 27, 2006 at 7:05 pm

  "deep down no one in America really gives a rat's ass about a bunch of people dying in Iraq. Half of us think they deserve it and the other half aren't paying attention most of the time."
  
  Dave Nalle 47 year old font designer/historian