Pat Tillman was killed in action in Afghanistan in a fire fight. Tillman used to play for the Arizona Cardinals and he turned down about 3.5 million dollars from an NFL contract to serve his country.…
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Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Craig Lyndall
Hey Mac, I appreciate you leaving me out of the researched folks department. Why are you taking such swipes at me? By the way, your entire last comment was a diversion.
Can we get back to the part in your first comment where you said Tillman was just furthering the right-wing agenda? You were flat out wrong and no matter how many follow-up comments citing anecdotal research about weird conditions where people want to lose their limbs will change the fact. You could admit it every now and then.
May I also point out that nowhere in this entire post was there anything about race until you brought it up.
I would like to think that we get along, but I feel like an undeserving target of your angry rhetoric this time.
27 - Mac Diva
Bullsh!t, your good friend Roger was the first person (?) on the thread to mention race, Craig. Nor is there anything bogus about the research I cite. Feel free to post reliable research proving the military is not mainly made up of working-class people, disproportionately minority. Go ahead, take all the space you need. Or alternatively, admit that you posted an entry that is just adoption of someone else's silliness. Since my information is accurate, you would be wise to take the alternative.
The irony in all of this is that we are 'supposed to' buy myth making over reality. As long as people do, they will remain just the kind of sheep Bush and company rely on to keep their corrupt arses in office.
28 - Joe
Would you care to point out specifically where Roger mentions race? I'm not sure that fellators or people with hairy bums necessarily constitute particular races.
Maybe you need a break, you really seem to be lacking the ability to understand, either that or you feel out of your depth and compelled to keep changing the subject. Not that this is anything new, but it really is tiresome.
29 - Mac Diva
I made an error. The first person (?) to make a racist remark on this thread was Dan Precht. He said:
. . .Tillman is a white guy who upheld the proud traditions of selflessness, honor, valor, and decency.
implying that white persons are all that. After all, they're white.
Yes, that is the same Dan Precht who has said he thinks Rosa Parks may have deserved to be beaten. And, that the civil rights movement was unnecessary. And so on. Ad nauseum.
Craig, quite a fan club you've accrued here.
I'll be awaiting your improvement on my statement about the demographics of the U.S. military.
On the bright side, more legislators are talking about bringing the draft back. If that occurs, the burdern of injury and death in the military will be shared more equitably.
30 - Joe
If you stretch any further, something may snap. You assert that Precht implied something which more likely you inferred. I assumed that he was attributing those qualities to members of the military rather than whites in general.
And, really, do you want to bring up peoples past statements? You've garnered quite the reputation as somewhat the prevaricator.
As to your statement about the military's demographics, do you care to explain how exactly persons of color constitute the majority with infantry units? Wouldn't that mean that there would be a greater percentage of non-whites than whites? I would assume that would mean their percentage would have to be somewhere nearer 50% than the 23% or the generous 29%.
31 - Sandra Smallson
Joe, Macdiva stretches nothing. That comment by this Dan character clearly implies that he thinks those attributes are a "white" thing. That comment is so stupid that Dan Precht as a white person has only increased the average percentage of stupid white people by making that comment.
I inferred the same myself as I clearly stated above. It was out of the kindness of my heart:) that I even gave him an outlet to escape that most ignorant of statements. If he did say Rosa Parks deserved to be attacked, then perhaps he does have a problem with darker skinned people. Poor baby. He is better off killing himself because slavery is over with and shan't be returning. I kid u not, Mr Precht. If you do have a problem with the non white, then u've only got one way out of this earth. I encourage nothing so horrendous. I simply suggest an alternative to what must be a miserable existense for you right now.
Back to point...look, I posted on here cos I believe what Tillman did was courageous and selfless. If he did it bcos he is rightwing or racist , whatever..I don't care. I don't know him. That's b/w him and his God. To me, it's a brave and selfless act. God rest his soul, and that's the end of it. He is as much a hero as soldiers all over the world who die for their country. He is not special. It was his own choice to leave a luxurious lifestyle. It doesn't elevate him from these working class people Macdiva is talking about. Neither does it demote him to someone unworthy of heroworship.
HOWEVER, the responses Macdiva has been getting, leads me to believe some of what she is saying. Some of you truly might be racists. It's like you are using her as scape goat to make your true feelings known. What is the meaning of "professional grievance"? Is that a term the whites reserve for the blacks or the jews? How about "professional stupidity with a dash of amateur ignorance"? I don't know if that's a term the blacks reserve for the "whites" or the... "whites"?
There are a few other really moronic and imbecilic comments coming from people who are calling another a moron or pathological. There is even someone, I don't know if in jest, responding to MacD with what I can only call "African American ghetto language"..ha! very unwise and very shortsighted of that individual. Let me assure him/her that the hicks/hillbillies and a few other caucasians especially in America are in no position to be poking fun at anybody's English Language because it is not a language they are overly familiar with either. You see. In every race we have the uneducated. The uneducated regardless of colour, simply can not speak proper English. Therefore, responding to MacD in the context of this thread, with that tone is not amusing and is just downright daft. Then another is going on about "29%" being "generous"? I don't think that if we have a larger proportion of whites in the army it makes them braver people? What a ludicrous line of reasoning! There are brave people in other works of life and each race contributes. In each race we have the useless loafers, we have the hardworking. If you are all so fascinated by statistics, well, ofcourse there should be more whites in the army. There are more whites in America, full stop. So, where is the surprise?!
A re-reading of your comments may require some of you to take the log out of your eyes before you advise Macd to take the speck out of hers. If this is an example of the response she gets from you guys regularly, it is no wonder she thinks most of you guys are racist.
32 - SFC Ski
It is a shame that this thread got highjacked, it really should be about Pat Tillman, but allow me to make one observation, which can be easily researched for someone with the time to look up the reports and news articles relating to how many minorities there are in uniform, but more importantly, what jobs they do in uniform. I am only going to opine about the Army, because that is what I know;
Generally by percentage of all minority service members, more minority Soldiers are found in the Combat Support/Combat Service Support roles. Think of clerks, mechanics, technicians, etc. A greater percentage of white males will go into the Combat Arms, i.e, infantry, tanks, etc. The report concluded that this was the result of why the Soldiers had enlisted in the first place. Belive it or not, while many Soldiers first enlisted for the quid pro quo of college benefite, etc, for a term of service, there is a lot of pride that comes in the process of serving their country, it is unavoidable. Generally, minority soldiers enlisted to get a skill that they could use after their enlistment ended, or after they had done 20 years and retired. It had nothing to do with courage, just planning for the future. In any case, in Iraq, lots of non-infantry Soldiers are out risking their lives on a daily basis, not secure in some rear area, their courage is tested every day, and they do their duty. Anecdotally, more minority soldiers that I know chose to stay for 20 rro various reasons. The white males often enlist for Combat Arms because the training is challenging, but is also is a lot of fun. Think of it this way, you can spend a day working in an office, or a specialty that involves riding in a tank, jumping out of a plane, or blowing things up, the choice is obvious when you are "young, dumb, and full of...". I first had a combat specialty, and it was a real thrill, but I realized that it was not the most marketable skill I could have, nor could I see myself doing it for 20 years, so I changed specialties and learned a foreign language, not a bad option. Not all Soldiers enlist with the idea of staying in for 20, but almost all of them sign up for GI Bill and college fund, and get out and complete their education, and even come back in, many as commissioned officers. That includes minority Soldiers as well.
Point is, courage and patriotism are only part of why any Soldier enlists, and these traits are not exclusive to any race.
As for Pat Tillman, the tone of incredulity that is expressed " Why would a man walk away from 3.6 million to be a Soldier?" is more a sad reflection of modern America's civic values, than any economic factor. I forget who it was, but there was an article about 18 months ago by a man, maybe a lawyer or professor, whose son joined the Marines, and most of his peers expressed regeret or condolence, rather than congratulations. Pretty sad, in my opinion. I don't expect people to slap me on the back amd thank me for soldiering, but there have been times when people, my own family included, have really offended me by saying things like, "You are a pretty smart guy, why would you waste your time in the military?" I am 39 years old, and most of my peers enlisted at a time when military service was definitely seen as a last option, if it was considered an option at all. We were a short sighted, somewhat selfish generation, we did not serve anyone, we expected to be served. I won't lie, I joined because it was a good trade-off, it was only after I had spent time in uniform that I realized why I was proud of serving, and I did not find that mentality, that idea of duty or honor in the civilian world, I chose to remain in uniform because I like what I do, I like the people I work with and for, and I like serving a nation that might make mistakes, and often does things imperfectly, but it is a nation that represents hope and potential for beterness, and freedom for so many who are willing to take the chance. Some of you can whine and cry about social injustice in the US, but if it is so bad, why do people come here. I have seen totalitarian East Berlin, impoverished Cairo, visited segregated Saudi Arabia, been wlcomed liberated Kuwait. The US isn't perfect, but it is much better than many alternatives.
Some people will never understand, and that is their loss. Some people can post their opinion of whatthey think drives a Soldier to enlist, or why we do what we are called on to do, but really, unless you have been a Soldier, orreally know a Soldier, you have no idea what you are talking about.
33 - sheri
Well, I'm seeing it different.
Let's examine this closely.
Starting with comment 4, then comment 8....MacDiva is attacking Craigs post, and the integrity of a Soldier.
She further attacks the soldier's integrity and sacrifice, by implying that he did it for the Right wing
. Now, since he wasn't even IN Iraq, but Afghanistan, this shows evidence that she is not basing her spite for the soldier on any real fact, but on the basis of the spite she has inside.
But for what exactly?
Read Dan's comment:
"Craig, you sound as if you are still trying to reason with the braying pig known as macdiva. Why bother. Her MAIN BONE OF CONTENTION IS THAT TILLMAN IS A WHITE GUY....."
The ONLY thing Dan was doing here, is referencing Craig back to what MacDiva is most known for here on this site, and that's her spite for whites, especially male one's.
34 - Shark
We can be thankful that MacDiva is a minority in this country in more ways than one.
Using a dead soldier to futher her "I'm a repressed, helpless victim of American racism" is about the most evil, despicable act from the Drama Queen so far.
The body isn't even cold and she's pissing on Tillman's memory to further her poor-poor-pitiful-me agenda.
Couldn't respect the dead and remain silent for one friggin' minute.
Gawd, her shit gets old.
One has to wonder what traumatic event in her childhood caused such a bitter, twisted view of the world.
Hell, Frederick Douglass was a REAL slave and he had more compassion, understanding, and empathy than McD could ever muster.
Bottom Line: Tillman exhibited a huge amount of integrity, civic duty, and committment to the greater good -- three qualities lacking in our society and especially our resident Professional Victim.
35 - Craig Lyndall
"Craig, quite a fan club you've accrued here."
How the fuck is that my fault? I write something because I think a guy who turns down 3.6 million to play football and does NO INTERVIEWS for publicity sake is a little bit different. He died. I like football. It struck me as sad. Tell me where I have to apologize for that?
"I'll be awaiting your improvement on my statement about the demographics of the U.S. military."
I never said a goddamn thing about the demographics of the military. YOU DID!
YOU SAID: "But, I would much rather he go than a youth with no real interest in protecting the interests of Bush, Cheney and Halliburton. Here's hoping more fellows like Tillman sign up."
I think it is pretty apparent that he didn't sign up as a pawn for Bush, Cheney and ESPECIALLY Halliburton, when he signed up right after 9/11 before Iraq was even mentioned in public. HALLIBURTON WAS NOT A PART OF THIS ORIGINALLY. THEY CAME MUCH LATER. YOU USED THIS AS A TOOL FOR YOUR AGENDA. I agree with you lots Mac, but you are really reaching here.
Maybe points need to be made about the demographics of the military, but why should I have to research that to do a sentence and a cut and paste article on Pat Tillman getting killed? It is a different issue. Pat Tillman getting killed is sad not because he is a white guy, but because I KNOW WHO HE IS. I watched him play football and I remember him. Knowing someone (even in this very limited capacity)always makes their death much sadder. I was sad at his passing. I am sorry that I wasn't mourning the losses of the over-represented minorities in the armed services first.
That wasn't my point. I know it is yours, and I respect that. I think it is fair. I haven't done research so I am not in a position to disagree with your numbers. You are probably right, but why did you pick this time and place? In the process you picked on a guy who happened to be white, that I respected as a football player.
You felt that an appropriate topic to blast me?
36 - Dan
Craig, If you need to know what motivates her dishonesty, I refer you back to comment #16. Better still, Sherri's clarification comment #34. (Even feeble minded Sandra Smallson should understand that.)
In macdiva's deranged universe, white guys simply do not behave in the profoundly extraordinary way Tillman did. She can't have that. It is one of the many things about reality that make her angry.
37 - Mac Diva
Yada. Yada. Yada.
The bottom line is:
*Pat Tillman is being cheered for the same reasons Jessica Lynch was. He appeals to white conservatives because he is, well, white and conservative -- and doing something people like them support (military service), but usually will not do themselves. There are other reasons too, of course. Among them is his boys just want to have fun interest in the military. And, it helps that he did not need to join the military, because poor folks do not get Right Wingers approval. If he were a Job Corps dropout with a GED we would never have heard of him. If he were black the kind of folks on this thread would be saying he was too stupid to move out of harm's way. So, no, Craig did not refer to race and class, but it is implied. That is why he has attracted the fan club he did. (Which I am not blaming on him.)
I appreciate Lil' Joe unwittingly assisting me. The data he supplied says there was a decrease in the number of black Army personnel during the 1990s, from about 30 percent to a projected 24 or 25 percent when the data was complied. However, even the low figure is nearly twice the representation of African-Americans in the populace, even more if you control for age. The figures for women are even more telling. Half of women in the Army are black or Hispanic. The data is a guide to who can get worthwhile jobs in civilian life and who can't. (The jobs minorities get in the military are usually also low tier, but I will save that for another discussion.) Of most importance, the situation will not improve. Projected figures for coming years maintain the disproportion. Unless the draft is brought back, the people who serve in the military and die in our wars will continue to be disproportionately working-class and nonwhite.
Those are the facts. Throw as many tantrums as you like, but that will not change them.
38 - Sandra Smallson
Dan, feeble minded or not, you are yet to elaborate on what exactly u meant by your comment. Do you think it speaks for itself and you don't see how any one can infer what I have from it? Even you, can not be so daft.
39 - Truth-minister
By "MacDiva",
If he were a Job Corps dropout with a GED we would never have heard of him. If he were black the kind of folks on this thread would be saying he was too stupid to move out of harm's way.
Message: #1 If he was a Job Corps dropout he probably wouldn't have a GED. #2 The stupid bastard wouldn't even be accepted to the military.
40 - TDavid
My oh my, does this subject get old, Mac Diva! The guy is a fucking hero and I say that whether he was white, black, brown or green -- a hero!
The only "facts" that I see have nothing to do with the cliched guesses and assumptions made in #37.
Facts:
1. Pat Tillman had a deal on the table for a million dollars a year for three years in the NFL, with incentives.
2. Pat Tillman turned the deal down to fight for this country after the events surrounding 9/11.
3. Pat Tillman refused many opportunities to publicize what he was doing (interviews, radio appearance, etc). Therefore, it can be surmised that he took this action for purely unselfish public or political reasons. He wanted to go to war and fight for this country.
4. Pat Tillman chose to enter the Rangers, knowing full well if he passed the rigorous training, he would likely be seeing front line combat.
5. Pat Tillman, based on his education, could have been made an officer and thus received an officer's salary which would have paid him nearly double that of the Ranger salary ($18,000 that he took). He chose to be right there with folks with GEDs or less education. Again, black, white, brown, green, whatever!
None of the above *FACTUALLY* says anything about Pat Tillman's personal political position or his feelings on the issue of race. This was clearly a color blind decision on his part. It wasn't a racial statement of any kind.
There are so many cowards and true racial angles to fight but this is just another empty battle cry for oppression where none FACTUALLY exists.
Fine, if you want to explore minorities in the military then go start another thread about it. I don't see how that is relevant here. In fact, I think it's just totally dis-fucking-respectable to the memory of Pat Tillman and his family.
And I'd say the same thing if Pat Tillman was black!
41 - joni
I don't know what y'all are getting so excited about.
It's obvious the beeeeatch is using satire just like when she suggested that BB should do her in (snicker, snicker).
42 - RJ Elliott
When blacks were just the bus drivers and cooks in the military (WWII, for example), this was viewed as discrimination. Because, you know, it was.
This all changed. Blacks are now on the front lines.
And now THIS is viewed as some sort of discrimination?
IT'S AN ALL-VOLUNTEER MILITARY! THESE PEOPLE WILLINGLY SIGN UP FOR SERVICE!
Most soldiers who die are WHITE. MOST SOLDIERS ARE WHITE. AND MALE.
Is the military sexist because less women sign up and die than their proportion of the population?
Are women cowardly because the vast majority of the ALL-VOLUNTEER military is male?
Why are we even discussing this?
All who serve honorably deserve our praise. All you die deserve our praise. Pat Tillman served when he didn't have to, did it without talking about how brave he was in the media, and is now dead. I praise him. I don;t care what color he was. It doesn't matter.
43 - Shark
MD: "...even the low figure is nearly twice the representation of African-Americans in the populace, even more if you control for age. The figures for women are even more telling. Half of women in the Army are black or Hispanic. The data is a guide to who can get worthwhile jobs in civilian life and who can't."
Has there been a more racist statement in this thread? I think not.
To assume that blacks and hispanics join the Armed Forces because they can't get worthwhile jobs in civilian life?!
If one of us would have said that, MD would be all over it.
There are a number of plausible explanations for the propensity of blacks and hispanics to join the military: patriotism, bravery, education, benefits, service to the greater good, skill acquisition, travel, discipline...
BUT any of those reasons would automatically assume BLACKS AND HISPANICS make honorable, informed, intelligent decisions for themselves, a characteristic McD is not likely to attribute to her fellow minorities.
Un-fucking believable.
--And explicit proof that she has a RACIST viewpoint that regards blacks and hispanics as inferior to whites.
44 - Mac Diva
The research says minorities join the military at disproportionate rates because they don't have the options available to whites. That isn't exactly 'volunteering.' It is taking what you can get. Other research, on discrimination in hiring and retention in the civilian workforce, confirms that finding. Since I have a great deal of respect for the serious, intelligent people who assemble the data, I accept their findings. Less particular persons should feel free to accept the bigoted grumblings of senile old men.
45 - Sandra Smallson
It's funny how no one has said anything to Truthminister on his black&decker comment. You guys just ignore it and head straight for MacD. I don't care if you think she deserves it. But atleast spare a line for inbreds like Truth Minister.
Hey Truthminister..Kin ah ask yew a question? what's red&white and peels itself? Come on naow, yew haf'to know the answer to daight..Gee, goddammit betty mae bobby jo, the answer is yew, Truthminister, trying to get a suntan.
Gee wizz Anna Mae, that term coloured? Now, let's see here..blacks were born one colour and will die that same colour. Whites were born red, lived white or whitish yellow and will die grayish blue..what race is referred to as coloured, again?!
Now, I lift myself away from the sewer that I have sunk into to visit one of our resident sewer rats, Truthminister. Hopefully, I will regain my senses and be a normal human being soon enough:)
46 - Shark
Sandi, you ask a rhetorical question and then answer it in your last paragraph.
Here's some soap.
~ ~ []
47 - Shark
"In May of 2002, Tillman announced his intentions to join the Army, turning down a $3.6 million contract offer in the process for $18,000 a year and an uncertain quest to become an Army Ranger. Tillman and his brother Kevin decided to enroll in the U.S. Army Rangers after the Sept. 11, 2001 terror attacks.
Both Pat and Kevin committed to three-year military terms, landing spots with the elite U.S. Army Rangers.
The Tillmans' goal to join the Rangers was not an easy one to achieve. Only 35 percent of all candidates get to wear the coveted black and gold Ranger Tab.
The two served in the Middle East as part of Operation Iraqi Freedom.
Pat and Kevin were recipients of the 11th annual Arthur Ashe Courage Award at the 2003 ESPYs.
In 2001, Pat Tillman turned down a $9 million, five-year offer from the St. Louis Rams to remain with the Cardinals for less money.
The 5-foot-11, 200-pound Pat graduated summa cum laude with a 3.84 GPA from Arizona State, with a degree in marketing.
"You don't find guys that have that combination of being as bright and as tough as him," Snow said."
==== end of reprint ====
"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind..." ---John Donne
PAT TILLMAN
........RIP.........
1976 - 2004
48 - Sandra Smallson
Shark, when I want your opinion, I will give it to you.
49 - joni
MD shite on the memory of a heroic man just to promote her own self-serving agenda. Almost makes ya want to revoke freedom of speech ..... Shame on you oxyMORON.
50 - Observer
This post went from being something informative to just a harangue of psuedo-pshyco analytical / political BULLSHIT. How about everyone DROP the egomania and rather than speculate about someone else's intentions as to why they joined the military, we simply treat Pat Tillman with the respect of a human being. Is that so hard? Really?
51 - Eric Olsen
Sandra is right in #46, I deleted the comment in question.
Please try to disagree without being insulting and puerile.
52 - Spinsistah
You're right Eric, so long as you also remember to edit Mac Diva every time she makes false statements or brandishes somebody with the 'R & B' words etc., etc.
53 - Eric Olsen
I am trying to keep up with all direct name calling and personal attacks.
54 - Truth-minister
Censor Macdiva? Never. Macdiva is a chacacter of one of this sites own. That would meen self censorship.
55 - Chris Kent
We're spilling a lot of tears over Tillman. A lot of people have been killed in action over the last few months.....who gives a flying fuck about Tillman? I'll tell you why.....he played professional football...he was a jock...he was an athlete in the NFL. He decided to turn his nose up at money and fight for his country, and he got killed for making that fateful John Wayne-bullshit decision. There's been a lot of people killed.
I can't possibly think of a single person who makes a SAFER hero than Tillman. I, for one, think it's a lot of propaganda nonsense......and am frankly glad someone in here is seeing through the bullshit......
56 - BB
Chris, I understand where you're coming from but let me rephrase what I think you are trying to say.
Yes, Tillman was was a patriot and hero in every sense of good ole American tradition, BUT let us not forget all of the other fallen heroes either. God bless them all - and might I add, let us hope no more will have to die.
57 - Eric Olsen
I don't think there are many things less "bullshit" than fighting and dying for your country. Who he is only comes into play because he gave up more than most in order to serve. Admiring his sacrifice in no way takes away from every other person who has made the ultimate sacrifice.
58 - Mac Diva
Chris Kent and Sandra, thank you for your support. However, I'm okay. The Sheris, Jonis, Joes and RJ Elliotts have gotten to be old hat. I know that they never have any information or insight about anything, so I either ignore or skim their output. It is not like I'm gonna miss something significant.
BTW, many of the 'Left' sites I've looked at are much harder on Pat Tillman than I am. They dismiss him as a fool. My perspective is that I want military service to be more equitable, not that no one should ever be a soldier. It is an opinion shared by quite a few agenda setters, as well.
I've posted an entry about our latest 'All American Hero' and the disproportionality issue on Mac-a-ro-nies. A version should appear on Blogcritics when the server reaches it. I know Craig dislikes having his threads soiled by the feces throwers, so I apologize to him for providing them an opportunity. It would have been wiser for me to have posted my own blog entry instead.
59 - Eric Olsen
I think that was a very gracious statement.
60 - joni
Good idea Macaroni. Talk to yourself on your own stupid blawgs (nudge, nudge, wink, wink :).
Hello... this is the big Mac speaking over at Silver Rights. And did you happen to catch my racist rant over at one of my other stupid blawgs while talking (to myself) in the third person? NO, well then be sure to catch the exciting rerun over at BC. Doh!
61 - sheri
I don't condone attempts to stir racial tensions, and that's what you do.
You are using tried and true techniques of propaganda to accomplish this, specificaly the one of "short-circuiting rational thought", on this thread.You encouraged this by:
1. agitating emotions
2. exploiting insecurities
3. capitalizing on the ambiguity of langauge
4. and by bending the rules of logic.
That includes name-calling, generalities, and transfer.
62 - Craig Lyndall
Thanks, Mac.
63 - joni
Y'all can fall for the false modesty routine all you want, but you can bet your life she will be back to shite on you faster than you can order a big mac. Those that have been around here long enough no better.
But in the spirit of goodwill toward my fellow (wo)man and all that, I throw down this challenge. I will be good if she agrees to hold her tongue for even just one week. Should be a tough one to swallow - eh mac?
64 - Dan
I'm not fallin' for it joni, but as a continutation of your "spirit of goodwill", I'll make my own "very gracious statement":
Craig, I'm sorry macdiva soiled your thread with her feces throwing.
65 - Rob
What is a Mac Diva? Sounds like some kind of food.
About #60 Joni, you're right on target.
#61: Sheri go teach pre-school. While you're at it get me some juice and cookies... Thank you mamm...
66 - sheri
I'm learning how to preform excorsisms right now, it will have to wait.
67 - RJ Elliott
In my high school, there were two huge tragedies that occured during the same two or three months.
One student was goofing off while driving his car and it smashed into a tree. He became a vegetable. But he was just an unpopular computer nerd, so the media barely paid attention.
The other student drown while goofing off swimming at the beach. But he happened to be a local football hero, with a football scholarship to a major state university. The local press was all over it for days. Front page stuff. Interviews with fellow students sobbing over the loss (even though many of them barely knew the guy, if at all).
I was sickened by this. And though I now better understand the reasons for the disproportionate responses to the two tragedies, it still sorta bugs me.
(By the way, the first guy was white, and the second guy was black...)
Anyway, Mr. Tillman was not honored "extra" just because he was a jock. Part of it was because he was already famous, and therefore had more name-recognition than your average soldier. Greater name-recognition means more people who "personally" knew the deceased. And that leads to more media coverage.
The other part is his personal sacrifice. He gave up millions pf dollars, and appearing on television as a "sports hero" every week. He gave this up for relative chump change and anonymity and risking his life in a dangerous job. He died for this choice.
And THAT is why we honor this man so much. He took the more difficult path. He took the road less traveled. And he gave up, literally, everything in doing so.
RIP: Pat Tillman.
68 - Natalie Davis
I don't consider Tillman a hero. As a pacifist, I am against war, against the military, and certainly against the notion that post-9/11, the decent thing to do was to go out and kill.
HOWEVER... I am sad to hear of his fate, just as I am sad for all those of all nationalities who have died in Irag and Afghanistan. And anyone who would ditch a multimillion dollar job and fame to follow a difficult and dangerous course in order to live up to his or her principles is a rare bird. I have to give Tillman credit for that. I do hope he rests in peace and I pray for his family and admirers during their time of grief.
69 - Shark
Natalie: "And anyone who would ditch a multimillion dollar job and fame to follow a difficult and dangerous course in order to live up to his or her principles is a rare bird."
Natalie, spot on. As I said earlier, regardless of color, job description, or political persuasion, the man exhibited a rare and valuable trait: PERSONAL INTEGRITY.
70 - Tarah Gorter
He was a good man fightin for our counrty and we really will mis this soldier because he was the greatest
71 - Nina
he was a good man i hope people relize what they have lost!! a great man of god!! well bye now!!!
72 - Hero
I am sickened by those who feel that they have the right ot judge Pat Tillman or his motives.
The man joined the army because he was sickened by what terrorists did to over 2500 innocent civilians working in the twin towers, and those on the flights that crached into the Pentagon and the Pennsylvania countryside.
If you think you have the right to judge Tillman... GO to ground Zero. read the stories of those who died there... of those who died trying to save others, and of those relative and friends who knew them.
Listen to the tapes of the workers who called home to say goodbye because they knew they couldn't get out of the building. Listen to the audio of bodies hitting the pavement because it was preferable to jump than to burn to death.
Get real.
Those who judge Tillman, have no idea what the hell they're talking about. If you haven't gone to ground Zero and stood in the HOLE... then you have no rights. You should not be allowed to have an opinion because it has NO (zero) real perspective.
IF you are voicing your opinion here and you haven't been to one of the crash sites... then you are really pathetic. Grow up and BE part of America, not part of America's ignorant population.
73 - RJ Elliott
I went to Ground Zero a few months after the attacks. Very moving.
Innocents died simply because they showed up for work that day. Firefighters and police died trying to save them.
Pat Tillman, and the thousands of others like him who signed up in the days, weeks, and months after 9/11, are all heroes. They made a choice to avenge the dead and defend their country. It doesn't matter what demographic they belonged to.
74 - Sarc
Just reported on CNN that his last words were....
'Cease fire! Friendlies! I am Pat (expletive) Tillman damn it!'"
Am I the only one who see's the typical jock conceit in his last words?
75 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
I've read about 75 comments on the death of a man who gave up a very enriching career to be a soldier for his country. He volunteered to fight in a war that - well in my opinion, he should have thought twice. But nevertheless, he did die in the service of his country.
All I can say is that whatever law was applied to that putz Phelps who tries to piss on the graves of those who die for their country ought be applied here. I am rarely disgusted by what I read in the comments list. But I am honestly disgusted.
Interesting how little so many of you appreciate the soldiers of your own country being willing to die to protect your sorry asses. It's one thing to criticize a war - it is quite another to spit at those who die in it believing they are defending you. Do you really deserve the freedom you have?