Social stereotypes and race issues in contemporary America
I'm going to wade into territory that I would probably be better off staying out of but since I don't know when to keep my mouth shut here goes nothing. The whole issue of team mascots being given pseudo Native American nicknames has always left a taste in my mouth - and not a good one. Now that the NCAA has finally gotten around to doing something about it, everybody is in an uproar over it.…
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— go to most recent comments26 - Shark
Lewisville, Texas has "The Fighting Farmers".
Seriously. It was once a community of tough-ass farm boys -- now, thanks to suburban sprawl, there's not a kid on the campus who knows what dirt is for
I was supposed to go to a high school where the mascot was a "Rebel" -- carrying a Confederate battle flag. Again, I'm serious!
(Shows how long ago that was.)
They were later changed to the "Raiders".
27 - Matthew T. Sussman
There was an old Negro League team named the Atlanta Black Crackers.
I swear to god. Here's proof.
28 - Matthew T. Sussman
Also: University of Idaho are the Vandals, an ancient European tribe. Remind me to tell all the Ostrogoths they're being hostilely abused!
29 - Mark the Sane and Sensible
"have you lost your short-tern memory from all the pot you smoked at the worker's party meeting you just attended."
I've never taken illegal drugs. If it were up to me, anyone that does illegal drugs would be jailed for life with other criminal scum.
30 - gonzo marx
Mark of the SS sez...
*I've never taken illegal drugs. If it were up to me, anyone that does illegal drugs would be jailed for life with other criminal scum.*
like Rush Limbaugh and Ayn Rand?
i'm just sayin'
Excelsior!
31 - RogerMDillion
The words of Mark the Insane
"Alcohol and psychedelic drugs are as comparable as a cap pistol to a howitzer. I know, having tried both in quanities sufficent to make an accurate judgement."
Feel free to turn yourself into the authorities, hypocrite.
32 - gonzo marx
that's not hypocrisy..that an outright Lie
so, which is it Mark of the SS?
now i begion to ponder if infamous AG and M of the Ss are not the same person?...
nah, couldn't be
Excelsior!
33 - DrPat
I know a high-school whose team is called the "Beetdiggers." Won a lot of basketball games when I was in high school, too.
When the school's mascot was chosen, the area was a hotbed of sugar-beet farming. Lots of "Scandahoovians" too, hence the crowd of very tall guys to fill the BBall ranks.
34 - gonzo marx
bah..and my HS were the Admirals...no fun there
that being said..for all of me, i don't get the uproar over team mascots...i have yet to see one that is blatantly and intentionally offensive...
and they ARE just folks in silly costumes, after all...however...
your mileage may vary
Excelsior!
35 - Matthew T. Sussman
Admirals advocate war. That's so hostile and abusive.
Call me when you start stackin' up prisoners in a pyramid.
36 - gonzo marx
will do, Matthew
and Admirals don't advocate War, they wage it...they also don't tend to take prisoners, letting them drown is much more efficient..
Excelsior!
37 - DrPat
True -- at my college, all teams were called "Orediggers," which (as you can imagine) spawned all sorts of lewd puns and jokes...
Not a patch on the hearty "Pawnees" of my high-school days, who regularly vowed to "scalp the Beetdiggers."
38 - Matthew T. Sussman
Central Michigan University -- the Chippewas -- are in the same boat as FSU. The local Chippewa tribe has endorsed the use of the mascot, as many of the tribal leaders have CMU degrees. Plus, their logo is the "C." And their sports suck and have sucked ever since the day Dan Majerle graduated. They have been hostilely abused by the other MAC teams.
39 - Aaron, Duke De Mondo
gypsyman, excellent post, i totally agree with you on every damn thing you say here.
the stuff thats "harmless, bit a fun, whats wrong?" can be the MOST harmful. the stuff that gets to linger on there after the REALLY OBVIOUS BAD SHIT gets sorted.
excellent stuff.
40 - Matthew T. Sussman
And I suppose since the Utah Utes is hostile and abusive, we should also change the name of the state from Utah to something else? I mean we don't want Native Americans to be associated with a state of white people, right? People would get the wrong impression of them!
41 - Dave Nalle
>>Have you ever heard of "white" males being defined in that manner. Can you name any specific trait that they are assigned in the same manner as described above? Not in our society<<
Yes, actually. In specific, the several prominent sports teams named after the Irish and emphasizing their combativeness, most notably the "Fighting Irish" of Notre Dame. Also the even larger number of teams named the "Rebels" or something equivalent, characterizing all southerners as rebellious supporters of the confederacy.
Team mascots are by their nature stereotypical. But the truth is that the stereotypes, be they of native americans or of other ethnic or cultural groups are largely positive or at the very least viewed positively by the people who support the teams. If you support the 'Fighting Illini', you do it because you LIKE the idea of brave, combative indians as representative of your sports team. Theose indians have a victorious spirit which you admire. Most native americans who aren't politicized, partisan sell-outs, recognize this fact and consider having a team named after their tribe the compliment which it is.
Dave
42 - Matthew T. Sussman
A list of white mascots in Division I:
Alabama-Birmingham Blazers
Army Black Knights/Cadets
Central Florida Golden Knights
East Carolina Pirates
Hawaii Warriors
Idaho Vandals
Louisiana-Lafayette Ragin' Cajuns
Michigan State Spartans
Middle Tennessee Blue Raiders
Mississippi Rebels
Navy Midshipmen
Nebraska Cornhuskers
Nevada-Las Vegas Rebels
New Mexico State Aggies
Notre Dame Fighting Irish
Oklahoma Sooners
Oklahoma State Cowboys
Purdue Boilermakers
Rutgers Scarlet Knights
San Jose State Spartans
Southern California Trojans
Tennessee Volunteers
Texas A&M Aggies
Texas Tech Red Raiders
Texas-El Paso Miners
Troy Trojans
Utah State Aggies
Vanderbilt Commodores
Virginia Cavaliers
Wake Forest Demon Deacons
Wyoming Cowboys
43 - bhw
But the truth is that the stereotypes, be they of native americans or of other ethnic or cultural groups are largely positive or at the very least viewed positively by the people who support the teams
Yeah, like the Cleveland Indians. Red Sambo is REALLY a positive stereotype.
Of course, the point isn't that what the people who support the teams like or don't like. It's what the people being steretyped like or don't like that matters.
44 - Mark the Sane and Sensible
"It's what the people being steretyped like or don't like that matters."
It's what the majority deems appropriate that matters.
45 - Lisa McKay
No, it's not.
46 - Phillip Winn
This country doesn't work by "what the majority deems appropriate" in most cases, and for good reason.
I used to believe that all of this uproar over team names was a tempest in a teacup, but I've come to see over time that they perpetuate painful stereotypes and keep open a wound that will never heal.
A study of history will reveal that the stereotypes of American Indians are hurtful primarily because they are inaccurate -- whether treasured or not.
After all, if I choose to memorialize General Patton as a hippie peacenik, am I honoring him? If I create an image of Ghandi as a warrior with an AK-47, am I honoring him? It doesn't matter if I respect Ghandi as a warrior or not -- it's simply not right, and it is an insult to his family and to those who treasure his legacy of non-violent resistance.
Team names change constantly as teams move, and losing long-standing team names because we have decided to declare that we choose not to be hurtful to a group of people who are insulted by it seems a lot better reason than just because a new owner moved the team.
Bravo to Gypsyman for an excellent post.
47 - Mark the Sane and Sensible
"After all, if I choose to memorialize General Patton as a hippie peacenik, am I honoring him? If I create an image of Ghandi as a warrior with an AK-47, am I honoring him?"
Honoring them in your way, fine, but it would be inaccurate. American Indians were fierce and brave primitives who killed each other and worshipped non-existent spirits. Their biggest contribution to the world was revolutionizing modern warfare. Once white men learned to adopt "Indian style" fighting, warafare was never the same again. It helped us defeat the British during the Revolutionary War.
We honor what made them great but cowardly white liberals wracked with guilt can't face reality so they invent an idealized form of reality that makes no judgments and places everything and everybody on the same moral plane.
48 - Phillip Winn
American Indians were fierce and brave primitives who killed each other and worshipped non-existent spirits.
American Indians were many disparate people groups, many of whom lived peacefully with each other and with European settlers until they were attacked by Europeans or, in some cases, tricked into believing that they had been attacked by other tribes.
Your view of American Indians appears to have been shaped almost entirely by the same sorts of stereotypes and selective readings of pseudo-history that caused these team names and mascots to be popular in the first place. American Indians were not all (and in fact mostly not) fierce, and were certainly not primitives. The Europeans settlers often dishonored themselves in warfare, not the least by engaging in warfare after having participated in ceremonies understood by the natives to be building a lasting peace treaty.
My point was underscored by your comment, so thanks. Many American Indians were as peaceful as Gandhi, and yet now the image most people think of is that of "fierce and brave primitives," an image as dishonoring to those people as an AK-47 wielding Ghandi would be to many others.
Read some history books! Not school textbooks, either, since those are more political documents than anything else.
49 - Matthew T. Sussman
I wouldn't be surprised if the Cleveland Indians' Chief Wahoo was gradually phased out. Their primary logo is the Cursive I.
www.indians.com
(Coincidentally, this team will win the Wild Card in the AL.)
50 - Natalie Davis
Absolutely.
I know people are sick of this issue, particularly the covertly bigoted people who passionately embrace disgusting figures like the Wacky Wigwammer (those humans are distinct from fans of teams like the Illini, the Seminoles, or the Utes, which I see in the same class as the Fighting Irish or the Vikings; they intend to confer honor with their team names -- although Mr. Winn makes a terrific point regarding inaccurate presentations and I would add that the co-opting of Native American religious symbols strikes me as being wrong). Fact is, the matter remains in the forefront because people are hurt by painfully stereotypical caricatures running around. What is worthy about that grinning Red Sambo?
For the record, my high school mascot continues to be the Franklin Indians (no, I don't and didn't approve); my college mascots remain the University of Maryland Terrapins and the Towson University Tigers.
Do we want the wounds to heal? Then the hurtful mascots must go away. Now, if you don't give a shit about how others feel, well, that says something about you.
51 - Matthew T. Sussman
If we get rid of college mascots that are offensive, then I ask we rename all states, cities and rivers which use First Nation tribes and phrases.
Make it more American. I think we could all benefit from turning the Mississippi River into the Starbucks River. Don't swim at night or you'll never get to sleep!
52 - Natalie Davis
Personally, Mr. Sussman, I'm part Powhatan and don't have a problem with names like Illini and such (though others indeed do and their feelings matter), but what is your opinion about the mascots that depict Native Americans as clowns?
53 - bhw
I wouldn't be surprised if the Cleveland Indians' Chief Wahoo was gradually phased out. Their primary logo is the Cursive I.
The Cursive I in the upper left corner of their home page is balanced by the Red Sambo in the upper right. And then Red Sambo appears below that, right next to the photo of one of the Indians' players.
If we get rid of college mascots that are offensive, then I ask we rename all states, cities and rivers which use First Nation tribes and phrases.
See, the big difference -- and I can't believe I have to explain this -- is that those names are the names given to many of those places by the Native Americans in those regions. They're not playing on stereotypes, they're just the names that have been there for, oh, 10,000 years or so. The colonial Americans just kept the existing names and put them on maps. There's nothing abusive, derogatory, or stereotypical about them.
54 - Mark the Sane and Sensible
"American Indians were many disparate people groups, many of whom lived peacefully with each other..."
You've watched revisionist garbage like Dances With Wolves too many times
"and selective readings of pseudo-history"
which should be replaced by the pseudo-history of Howard Zinn?
"Many American Indians were as peaceful as Gandhi,"
Again, you've watched Dances With Wolves too many times that you actually believe it.
55 - Phillip Winn
Suss, you've got it backwards. Consider Mount McKinley, now commonly known as Mount Denali. It was "named" in 1896 by a European in "honor" of a politician (not yet President) who never ventured anywhere near Alaska. Why? Apparently because that guy favored the gold standard, as did McKinley.
So though the Russians had named the mountain Bulshaia Gora in the late 1700s, and the nearby Indians called it "Denali," and despite the fact that even other white Americans had "discovered" the mountain by then and referred to it by its Indian-given name, this guy "named" it Mt McKinley.
So is it more dishonoring to reject names out of hand because they are Indian, or to use the names for places that they have borne for hundreds of years before Europeans ever saw them?
Clearly, Mt Denali is a preferable name.
56 - Matthew T. Sussman
Then how about this:
In Toledo, Ottawa Hills (the ritzy white district) has a street that runs through it named Indian Road.
Should it be re-named?
57 - Natalie Davis
Mr. MTSAS, perhaps you have seen too many old-school westerns. Sure there were some violent indigenous Americans, but many individuals and tribes indeed were peaceful.
And what does Howard Zinn have to do with this thread? Ohhhh, that's meant to be a slam against those who disagree with you. Gotcha.
58 - Phillip Winn
A historian encountering that question would ask more questions:
Why was it named that?
What name did it have before that, if any?
Who chose the name?
What is the history of Indians in that area?
And so on. The name in itself isn't necessarily offensive, any more than "Mount McKinley" is. But the "how" and the "why" might be a big deal -- or not.
Still, this is a different issue from that of mascots and derogatory sports team names.
59 - Nancy
First Nations people have clown traditions, too, Nat: there are the Koshares, & in a slightly different category, the immortal Will Rogers, humorist & stand-up comic before his time. If Amerinds have been to date portrayed as somber, no-nonsense characters without humor, perhaps it's because most of the situations being addressed were pretty humorless, too, but like most people, each First Nation actually had a considerable body of humor in their cultures.
60 - Phillip Winn
Mark, I've never read a Zinn book in my life, and I hated Dances with Wolves.
Labels like "revisionist" reveal an appalling ignorance of how history works.
When something is false, it needs to be revised. When something is true, it does not. There are therefore good revisions and bad revisions. The point isn't whether a not a history is revisionist, the point is whether or not it is true.
That Indian tribes varied widely is true. Period. You'd be hard-pressed to find any historian who would even suggest otherwise.
Dismissal of a wide range of people groups as fierce primitives is nonsensical and the epitome of racism. What unites them, after all, but their skin color? Many of them had no communication with each other, and they shared no geographical borders.
61 - Mark the Sane and Sensible
"Labels like "revisionist" reveal an appalling ignorance of how history works."
No, it reveals an an apalling interest in changing everything of the past for the sake of a few malcontents in the present.
"When something is false, it needs to be revised. When something is true, it does not."
There is nothing false about American history of any consequence that requires revison. History should reveal that the land of nations belongs to the nation that can conquuer and best defend it. The Indians couldn't defend their land because of our superior technology and they lost. End of story. Why that requires any change in history just doesn't make sense.
62 - bhw
There is nothing false about American history of any consequence that requires revison. History should reveal that the land of nations belongs to the nation that can conquuer and best defend it.
Does this include Israel, which needed an international body to recreate it?
63 - Phillip Winn
Comments like that last also reveal an appalling ignorance of how history works. Not least because those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it!
In fact, history should be primarily responsible for provide a true and accurate picture of what happened. That comes in two parts: facts and analysis.
What you're providing is an example of analysis, but based on a false collection of "facts."
64 - Phillip Winn
Er, meaning #61, not #62. :-)
65 - Matthew T. Sussman
The origin behind the naming of the Cleveland Indians is open for skepticism. Some say it was in honor of Louis Sockalexis, the first Native American to play the game professionally. Others say that was a cop out. The team was named that in 1915. Previously it had been the Cleveland Naps, named after their manager and Hall of Famer Nap Lajoie. It does have sort of a weird ring to it unless you like the idea of calling them the "PowerNaps."
Cleveland is located in Cuyahoga County in Ohio.
And when you're a sports fan you're not really thinking about Native Americans when you're watching the game. Only a non-sports fan looking at it coldly sees something there. Everyone else is watching the game and uniting as a city.
66 - Natalie Davis
Mr. Sussman, that's kind of a broad pronouncement, don't you think? Plenty of sports fans have social consciences, and we don't turn them off during baseball games.
67 - Phillip Winn
Suss, my point wasn't to "rule" on the street you mentioned, it was to describe the process by which it would be reasonable to make those decisions. Based on what you've outlined, it sounds like the street was as likely to be named in honor of the former residents of the area as anything else.
I do know what you mean about sports fans watching the games, and I have no desire to see every team adopt a crappy name like "Jazz" or "Stars" (my hockey team). I do, however, think that it isn't too much to ask for team names to avoid perpetuating stereotypes that were clearly developed in order to justify European-American appropriation of tribal property.
The time for such justification is long past. Nobody is asking for the land back (or at least, they're not going to get it), so there is no need to perpetuate this clearly-false view of history. Instead, we would all be better served by understanding how it is we came into control of the land. Sometimes by fair trading, sometimes by rightful conquest, and sometimes by treacherous dealing.
68 - Natalie Davis
When is conquest of humans and their property ever rightful?
Just a rhetorical question that came to mind...
69 - Matthew T. Sussman
If by social conscience you mean "display respect for the other team," well ... depends on how much you've had to drink and how badly they're beating you. But we know better than to heckle players based on race.
Sports is an escape. It shouldn't be a social talking point, and to those who love sports, it's not. The real debate is whether or not Bob Wickman can close the big one.
The only case I can really see is phasing out Chief Wahoo, and like I pointed out, it's evident he's not as everpresent as he used to be. He's a red-faced Indian, but to the fans and citizens who grew up loving the team and idolizing the players, it's an icon embedded in their brains forever. You can take it off the market, but it won't go away unless you possess intimate knowledge of "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind" technology.
And it's that latter element that these groups are trying to at least prevent in the future, which they'll have to wait for me and every other Indian fan to die before that happens.
70 - Phillip Winn
"Forever" is a funny term to use when referring to the existence a mascot that far antecedes the setting of this country. I doubt the mascot has been embedded in the brains of the fans for more than 200 years. :-)
71 - Matthew T. Sussman
But in the context of the modern fan?
(Although I currently have a mental image of Ben Franklin doin' the Tomahawk Chop that you simply must see.)
72 - Natalie Davis
"If by social conscience you mean 'display respect for the other team,' well ... depends on how much you've had to drink and how badly they're beating you. But we know better than to heckle players based on race.
Sports is an escape. It shouldn't be a social talking point, and to those who love sports, it's not. The real debate is whether or not Bob Wickman can close the big one."
There you go with that broad brush again. I LOVE sports. I do not imbibe at sporting contests. I worry about my teams and how they are doing. AND social justice matters at the same time -- and btw, I hear idiot fans heckle people for havibng overabundant (ITO) melanin more frequently than you might imagine.
In short, speak for yourself, Mr. Sussman. Regardless of your presumptions, many people who love sports at least as much as you do not check our principles and beliefs at the admission gate.
73 - Matthew T. Sussman
But what good is it to worry about global issues and pressing topics when you're immersed, as a spectator, in a game?
74 - bhw
He's a red-faced Indian, but to the fans and citizens who grew up loving the team and idolizing the players, it's an icon embedded in their brains forever.
Does anyone really care about people who *idolize* baseball players and who associate these idols with a derogatory caricature of a group of people who have absolutely nothing to do with the baseball players or their team?
Really, could anyone's opinion matter less than theirs?
75 - Natalie Davis
Apparently, those of people offended by stereotypes and bigotry and people who believe in social justice...
Mr. Sussman, you have the ability to tune out the world's horrors, even if a game thrusts one or more of them into your face? You must be The Man. Sorry, I'm not built that way.