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South Carolina Presidential Debate Live Event

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Chat Live During the Debate

Welcome to the Blogcritics live online event for the South Carolina Republican Presidential Debate. The debate begins at 9pm eastern time and our live coverage will begin a little bit before that. We’ll have live chat commentary which you can participate in with capacity for hundreds to take part and share their observations during the debate, plus a post mortem after the debate which may feature a special guest. Drinking games during the debate are not only authorized, but encouraged. The chat application is right below and some information on the candidates fills out the rest of this article.

The Contenders

There are five candidates participating in this debate and they really cover the spectrum of the Republican Party, from the extremely socially and fiscally conservative Rick Santorum to Liberty Republicans like Ron Paul and Gary Johnson. Here’s a little info on each of them.

Herman Cain is the former CEO of Godfather’s Pizza, a syndicated columnist and a former federal reserve board chairman.. Until recently he was a nationally syndicated radio talkshow host, but is on hiatus during his campaign. He is from Atlanta and has degrees in mathematics and computer science. He is a strong fiscal conservative with relatively pragmatic positions on social issues. He is an experienced and dynamic public speaker and brings powerful credentials as a very successful businessman to his campaign.

Gary Johnson is the former two-term governor of New Mexico who earned a nationwide reputation as an opponent of government waste. He vetoed over 700 bills in his two terms in office. Johnson was a very successful businessman before going into politics, taking a small handyman business and turning it into a multi-million dollar corporation with thousands of employees. Johnson is also an avid outdoorsman and has climbed Mount Everest. Since leaving office he has become notable for advocating libertarian political issues, including ending the War on Drugs and the War on Terror. His positions are not terribly far from those of Ron Paul, though he is personally somewhat more socially liberal.

Ron Paul is probably the highest profile candidate. He is a 10 term Congressman from Texas known by his colleagues as “Dr. No” for his consistent opposition to any growth of government spending or programs and any legislation of questionable constitutionality. Paul ran for president in 2008 and his campaign launched the Tea Party movement and pioneered non-traditional fundraising methodology which has been adopted by other insurgent campaigns since then. Paul is a conservative libertarian politically who believes in minimal government and strict adherence to the Constitution and for his outspoken, sometimes irascible style.

Tim Pawlenty just left office after his second term as Governor of Minnesota. He is popular with the Republican Party establishment and has a successful record as governor, although many of his positions are outside of the norm of the party and unpopular with fiscal conservatives. He has been a supporter of unions and socialized medicine and combines fiscally moderate positions with strongly socially conservative views. He has earned praise for successfully balancing his state budget and for his pro-business policies as governor.

Rick Santorum served two terms as Senator from Pennsylvania and two terms in Congress representing suburban Pittsburgh. He is Roman Catholic and has a reputation as an extreme religious conservative. He tried to legislate the teaching of intelligent design at the federal level and has made controversial statements on a variety of social issues. He is known for his aggressive and confrontational style and for not shying away from controversial positions.

For another view on the debating candidates see The Washington Post.

Where are the Frontrunners?

Several potential candidates who are viewed by many as frontrunners in the GOP primary did not qualify for the debate or chose not to enter. Some of them have not officially filed exploratory committees or are not polling over 1% in recent polls, or just didn’t want to pay the $25,000 entry fee. They include Mike Huckabee, Mitt Romney and Donald Trump who have relatively high poll rankings and others like Mitch Daniels, Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann and Newt Gingrich. Huckabee, Romney and Trump have high media profiles but there are serious questions about their electability in the primary or in a general election against President Obama.

Watch While You Chat

The debate will be broadcast live on FoxNews starting at 9pm. If you don’t have cable then you can watch the broadcast through the live stream on the Fox Website. The chat application is below. It will also be accessible through several other sponsoring websites. You can even embed it on your site if you like. You can also download the client App and join the chat on your smartphone. Search for CoverIt Live.

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About Dave Nalle

  • Heidi

    I’m excited to see Gary Johnson spread the sanity tonight! Hopefully this will boost his name recognition, because I think a lot of Americans will relate to his ideas.

  • http://www.gwbush.blogspot.com RJ

    Rick Santorum is “aggressive and confrontational?” His views may be outside the mainstream on some social/religious issues, but he always struck me as a pretty nice-seeming guy.

  • zingzing

    “he always struck me as a pretty nice-seeming guy.”

    other than the whole bigotry thing. i’m surprised no mention of dan savage’s santorum came up. wonderfully filthy mind, that dan savage.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Santorum = scarifyingly anti-gay.

    And intelligent design too? Just what we need. The voters of Pennsylvania declined to reelect him, and I think they had the right idea.

  • http://www.gwbush.blogspot.com RJ

    Leftists believe disagreement with their social agenda = evil. I got that. But he comes across as a fairly nice-seeming guy.

  • zingzing

    until you uncork the boiling cauldron of shitty hate and lubed-up rage. (the cork’s on his bloody butt.)

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Log Cabin Republicans — and Dave Nalle — differ with Mr. Santorum’s unpleasant homophobia too, without being leftists.

    In an April 2003 interview with the Associated Press, Santorum stated, “If the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual [gay] sex within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery.” Santorum further stated that he believed consenting adults do not have a constitutional right to privacy with respect to sexual acts.

    In response, Dan Savage, as zing alluded to above, created what Wikipedia calls the sexual neologism ‘santorum,’ for a “frothy mixture of lube and fecal matter that is sometimes the byproduct of anal sex.”

    No reason Dan or myself have to be any more ‘fairly nice-seeming’ to Mr. Santorum than he is to us.

  • zingzing

    heh. i just googled santorum (both the last name and the full name), and savage’s speadingsantorum website comes up #1 in both searches.

    if ol’ sticky is stupid enough to throw away his (donor’s) money, he can give it what for, but if i were him, i’d pull out before things get messy.

    oh, it’s too much fun already. such a pleasure. anal sex.

  • http://www.gwbush.blogspot.com RJ

    Dan Savage sounds like a classy guy.

  • zingzing

    he is.

  • tim

    I agree that there are lots of people who can realte to gary johnsons idea, some of them may be even out of the blue but they make sense after you hear his explanations.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Mr. Savage has a savagely satirical sense of humor [especially when he’s pissed off], but he can also be spectacularly sweet and caring: witness the “It Gets Better” campaign to reassure potentially suicidal young victims of anti-gay bullying. Even portrayed in a commercial, as it currently is for Google Chrome, this is a guaranteed feel-good tearjerker.

  • Baronius

    Dave – I’m curious about your description of Pawlenty. Could you flesh that out a little?

  • Heloise

    Why does Ron Paul have such a dufus look on his face? I no like him. But I think I like Pawlenty.

  • Heloise

    While Santorum looks Kennedyesque and is a Catholic his dad was born in Italy. And I ain’t voting for anyone who does not have natural born citizen parents, both of them. My new voting rule. Obama is excluded only because he slipped in under the illegal radar LOL. I do think he is was born in Hawaii but the problem lies elsewhere.

  • Heloise

    I couldn’t care less that Ron Paul may be outed as a racism ala his newsletters, but others will care and that will make him an albatross around the neck of potential independent voters.

    He got press and buzz last time around, thanks to one of my posts “Sign of the times” and folks started getting on the band wagon but I would never vote for him or his son. They love Ayn Rand and who knows what else. Stupid.

  • zingzing

    from the fingertips of heloise, much wisdom spews forth in a crazed torrent of words. bonkers.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    No one could ever make you up, Heloise. You are a true original.

  • Baronius

    I just noticed that Dave makes the claim that the Ron Paul campaign launched the Tea Party movement. I’ve seen other people make the same claim, but I sure don’t remember it that way.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Dave – I’m curious about your description of Pawlenty. Could you flesh that out a little?

    Not sure what I said about Pawlenty, but he comes off rather like a robot. He has strange jerky hand movements and a kind of robotic style – probably delivering memorized answers. He’s not terribly engaging.

    But what really did him in here was having to defend his terrible record as a Governor. At least terrible as far as most Republicans are concerned. The Fox panelists had done their research and they hit him with questions for which he had no good answers, just excuses which exposed him as an opportunistic hack.

    He’s basically a less good looking Romney and it’s not surprising that he was universally rated as the loser of the debate.

    I just noticed that Dave makes the claim that the Ron Paul campaign launched the Tea Party movement. I’ve seen other people make the same claim, but I sure don’t remember it that way.

    They weren’t as widely publicized as later events, but the first tea party events were associated with the Ron Paul campaign starting in 2007 with the very first one which was held in Boston. This is now pretty much common knowledge though at the time you kind of had to be tied into the libertarian and liberty republican community to be aware of them. Other groups picked up on the theme and the rest is history.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    For those who are interested in such things, this live event drew a huge crowd. There were over 1200 watchers and over 80 people commenting at one point.

    Dave

  • Heloise

    zingzing I have MANY #1 posts on all the major search engines…enough said?

  • Heloise

    may the best looking candidate win. They always do.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Wonkette had some typical snarky fun with last night’s “terrible debate”:

    Frank Luntz [interviewed people who thought] Herman Cain didn’t just win the debate. He mopped the floor with them all. And it makes absolutely no sense.

    We watched this debate too. Herman Cain didn’t say anything special. He sounded like pretty much any other Republican, though his grasp of the issues was a little weak at times.

    So what does this all mean? Americans love pizza, obviously, and would love to elect it president. Unfortunately, as much as everyone loves the Constitution, it says pizza is not eligible for the office.

    Also: this was a sample of white South Carolina Republicans. Do they think showing enthusiasm for the token black guy after the first, pointless debate will make up for all the things their state has done to black people over the years? Probably.

  • Baronius

    Dave – Yes, Paul’s supporters had tea parties, but you can’t really say that they led to the Tea Party movement. That’s just not honest.

    How does the libertarian gang deal with Cain’s Fed background?

  • http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/author/danmiller/ Dan(Miller)

    I just read some commentary on the recent debate, here and elsewhere. Not having heard much about Mr. “Oreo” Cain, I watched his address delivered a couple of months ago at the CPAC meeting and was favorably impressed. If anybody has twenty-eight minutes to spare, it would be worthwhile to watch. Here is his website.

    I don’t have any idea who might be the Republican nominee, but Mr. Cain should be close to the top of the list.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    To whom it may concern: In some parts of the country, libertarians who hosted the first Tea Party events locally, stopped attending when the neocons, bringing their own strange brew, crashed them. Sarah Palin blew through town during the last election to give “Tea Party suppport” to a local candidate who was the opponent of the man “Ron Paul Republicans” were endorsing.

    Didn’t matter though. Look who those “racist” Ron Paul supporters helped to send to Washington, to represent Red State (and supposedly, hot-bed of white supremacism) Idaho: Raul Labrador, the first Puerto Rican Republican in Congress.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    (“primaries”, not “election”)

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Irene –

    Of course, Ron Paul’s no racist! That’s why he allowed racist comments in HIS magazine in HIS byline for years, right?

    And I’ll point out to you what the other BC cons are so tired of hearing – that in an April 2011 poll, forty-six percent of Republicans in MS believed that interracial marriage should STILL be illegal…and their governor – a former head of the RNC – supported the VERY racist Conservative Citizens Council and said that racism in MS back in the 1960’s “wasn’t that bad”.

    Okay? Deny it all you want, but racism IS present in a significant part of the GOP…unless, of course, you feel that 46% is not ‘significant’….

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Top of the list for crazy bigoted bullshit maybe?

    While attending the Conservative Principles Conference last weekend in Iowa, Cain told a reporter – if he became president – he would not appoint a Muslim to his cabinet or as a federal judge.

    [Said Cain:} “And here’s why. There is this creeping attempt, there is this attempt to gradually ease Sharia law and the Muslim faith into our government. It does not belong in our government. This is what happened in Europe. And little by little, to try and be politically correct, they made this little change, they made this little change. And now they’ve got a social problem that they don’t know what to do with hardly.”

    No doubt Dan thinks this is just peachy. Yikes.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    Glenn, you’ve revealed your history on BC. Maybe I’m right about this, maybe not. I wonder sometimes, if by running around calling “BC cons” racists, you are trying to offload the guilt you still feel about the crappy way you’ve treated blacks in YOUR past–affronts running the gamut from pettiness to out and out CRUELTY to your former mistress– offenses that none of us “BC cons” have ever come close to committing, nor ever will.

    Get a weekend away, Glenn, just you and God, and get the thing settled. Does your religion believe that Jesus bore the penalty for ALL your sins? You don’t have to carry around that guilt any more, Glenn—and neither do the, what, fifty four percent of Mississippian Republicans–who are, like, WOW!–MISSISSIPIAN, no less, who are cool with interracial marriage.

    *walks away wondering what the poll would show for Republican attitudes for the United States as a WHOLE, if the majority of Republicans in deep south MISSISSIPPI show such enlightened racial attitudes *

  • zingzing

    bit of a cheapshot there, irene.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    No, cheap shots come out when you think you’re cornered and can’t think of anything else to say. I’ve been thinking somebody needed to say this to Glenn for awhile. So I said it, and I hope he runs with it.

  • zingzing

    well, glenn does have a point on paul. he’s either a racist or a profoundly lazy person who doesn’t bother to read his own newsletter. he did take the time to publicly repudiate whatever was written (not that he took the time to read them), but when something like that is written under your name and you don’t like being thought of as a racist, i’d think you’d do just a bit more.

    and that 46% number is rather garish. say all you want about the 54% of mississippi republicans that aren’t terrible racists, but damn… it’s a significant number. mississippi or not, it’s ugly.

    i do think it was a bit of a cheap shot. glenn obviously has struggles with his past, and he’s doing what he can to make up for lost time, i suppose. we’ve all done things we wish we hadn’t, and if glenn’s on a bit of a crusade, so be it. i don’t think that a romantic weekend with god is going to do away with all guilt. ask a catholic. bunch of whiners.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/irene-athena/ Irene Athena

    Ron Paul should do more than what he’s done to get the “he’s not a racist” stamp of approval from Austin’s NAACP director? More than being one of the most outspoken opponents of the War on Drugs which causes the incarceration of so many non-violent people, including many non-violent black people?

    Glenn is expecting us to see past his own egregious racist past–which I’d be perfectly willing to do, if he himself could rid himself of the compulsion to paint the rest of us as racists whenever he has the opportunity–yet he continues to bring up mimeographed newsletters that Paul didn’t even write.

    There are blacks in jails, blacks who don’t have any other job options besides going to fight in an endless series of neocon wars, blacks who will be executed in out-of-proportion numbers, whom Ron Paul is trying to help.

    But Glenn and his “bit of a Crusade” stand in opposition. Glenn needs to take care of his guilty conscience in more constructive ways.

  • zingzing

    “Glenn is expecting us to see past his own egregious racist past–which I’d be perfectly willing to do, if he himself could rid himself of the compulsion to paint the rest of us as racists whenever he has the opportunity–yet he continues to bring up mimeographed newsletters that Paul didn’t even write.”

    glenn never painted you as a racist did he? (hyperbole isn’t necessary.) paul supposedly didn’t write those newsletters, but damn if he let let some whacked-out shit be printed under his name. i don’t know how you erase that stain, but he’s barely even begun to try. (for the record, i don’t think he’s a racist per se, just a man all too willing to delegate his work to the wrong people… and i recognize what you’re saying about the “war on drugs” and neocon wars.)

    like it or not, those newsletters are going to come up, and if he’s got any chance of winning the presidency, he’s going to have to some serious work convincing a lot of people that he didn’t write them and doesn’t believe a word that was said in them. he obviously hasn’t done that (or at least not enough).

    “But Glenn and his “bit of a Crusade” stand in opposition.”

    nonsense. ron paul is a lot of things, but he is not these two that follow:

    1) someone with whom a majority will agree on all issues. he’s a little too far gone into his own personal beliefs to attract enough voters to become president.

    2) someone who glenn could affect or damage in any way.

  • Clavos

    that in an April 2011 poll, forty-six percent of Republicans in MS believed that interracial marriage should STILL be illegal…and their governor – a former head of the RNC – supported the VERY racist Conservative Citizens Council and said that racism in MS back in the 1960’s “wasn’t that bad”.

    Okay? Deny it all you want, but racism IS present in a significant part of the GOP…unless, of course, you feel that 46% is not ‘significant’….

    46% would be much more significant if it were 46% of the entire GOP, but 46% of GOP in MS?

    Hell, the whites in MS are cretinous, redneck dirt farmers with lower IQs than their huntin’ dogs — and that goes for the MS GOP and Dems — in fact, all white Mississippians — even the independents.

    Not for nothing is MS ranked dead last in every measure taken of the 50 states.

    Puleeze.

  • zingzing

    don’t deny the significance of the stupid, clavos. dangerous game, that.

  • http://www.gwbush.blogspot.com RJ

    Hell, the whites in MS are cretinous, redneck dirt farmers with lower IQs than their huntin’ dogs — and that goes for the MS GOP and Dems — in fact, all white Mississippians — even the independents.

    Just the white Mississippians, Clavos?

    Actually, I’ve known some white people from MS. Some are dumb trash, and some are good people. Just like folks from any other state.

    Not for nothing is MS ranked dead last in every measure taken of the 50 states.

    MS also has the highest percentage of blacks by far of any other state (37%). Since blacks tend to underperform whites in nearly every educational and socio-economic indicator, that may help to explain Mississippi’s low ranking.

  • http://www.gwbush.blogspot.com RJ

    Oh, and inb4

    RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCIST!!!1!1!

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Is a deliberately provocative racially charged comment racist? By some quite reasonable definitions, yes.

  • Clavos

    Since blacks tend to underperform whites in nearly every educational and socio-economic indicator, that may help to explain Mississippi’s low ranking.

    I doubt the blacks in MS underperform the redneck dirt farmers in MS, even my cat outperforms them.

  • zingzing

    rj, the inb4 was funny. mostly because it went on too long.

    handy, a statement of fact (and it is a fact) shouldn’t be viewed as racist. even if it is inflammatory and probably snotty, given the source.

    but let’s all recall that african americans are about two or three generations into what could be called equality in our society. and some of them still get a raw deal when it comes to educational and economic opportunity that many white people take for granted.

    inner city schools are understaffed and overcrowded. our best teachers (reasonably, it must be said,) want to teach in better paying, better funded, better equipped schools. our standardized testing favors white, affluent students.

    i know affirmative action creates opportunities for minorities to enter the corporate world, but i’ve worked for several corporations where a vast majority of the african american or latino/hispanic employees there were working in customer service. a majority of the well-paying, decision-making (like hiring) were filled with whites (and asians). and i wonder how many forbes 500 companies are owned or headed by african americans at this point. it can be a hard thing to break into, and it takes time.

    the point is that african americans have not been fully integrated into the society. but they are working their way in, and as time goes by, the disparity that rj notes will (hopefully) lessen significantly.

    i realize that all that up there could come off as slightly smug or something and that’s not what i want it to be, but i’m supposed to be working right now… so it is what it is.

  • http://www.gwbush.blogspot.com RJ

    I found this, and it seems to be a credible source:

    In Mississippi, 78.0% of persons age 25 and older had educational attainment of high school or higher in 2005-2007. The percentage of persons age 25 and older who completed high school was 82.6% for whites, 69.9% for blacks, 57.9% for Hispanics, 77.0% for Asians and 70.3% for American Indians/Alaska Natives.

    In Mississippi, 18.6% of persons age 25 and older had educational attainment of bachelor’s degree or higher in 2005-2007. The percentage of persons age 25 and older who completed a bachelor’s degree was 22.2% for whites, 11.5% for blacks, 11.7% for Hispanics, 39.3% for Asians and 12.3% for American Indians/Alaska Natives.

    In 2007-2008, the public school [[event dropout rate] in Mississippi was 5.6% for blacks, 3.9% for Hispanics, 3.6% for whites, 3.0% for Native Americans, and 2.0% for Asian/Pacific Islanders.

    In 2009, Mississippi reading proficiency and mathematics proficiency average scores were higher for white students than for black students.

    I realize (I hope?) that Clavos was just being hyperbolic, but I thought I’d post the data anyway.

  • Clavos

    OK, RJ, I concede. My cat’s only smarter than 80% of Mississippians, according to your source.

    Seriously, fewer than 1 out of 5 are college graduates?? only 18.6%?

    I rest my case…

  • http://www.gwbush.blogspot.com RJ

    Clavos,

    I didn’t mean to suggest that you were incorrect in suggesting that Mississippi is kind of on the stupid side compared to most other states. I simply took issue with your implication that this was due solely to the white population of the state. That’s all. :)

  • zingzing

    rj, you gotta look at the context (white republicans on interracial marriage). it was obviously hyperbolic and a bit of a joke, but you went ahead and nitpicked it… why, really, i don’t know. something in you couldn’t resist?

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Only 22% or so of Americans have bachelor’s degrees [40% have 2-year associate’s degrees or higher]. Mississippi is behind, but not outrageously so.

  • http://cinemasentries.com/ El Bicho

    is he still going by RJ? Thought it was Walter Neff

  • Clavos

    Only 22% or so of Americans have bachelor’s degrees [40% have 2-year associate’s degrees or higher].

    Confirms my own first hand observations; the majority of Americans are uneducated rubes — especially in the south.

  • http://www.gwbush.blogspot.com RJ
  • zingzing

    ohmygod, rj. the most surprising thing about that article is that obama would invite two rank has-beens. he showing his age. but the idea that black people (and come on, you’re talking about common and jill scott here…) could have ignorant attitudes isn’t surprising, is it?

    if he really wanted to get out there, he coulda invited this guy. at least he believes in interracial… raping and murdering…

  • http://www.gwbush.blogspot.com RJ

    The fact that some white people or some black people could have politically-incorrect beliefs about such things isn’t surprising to me, nor is it particularly concerning. Freedom of association and all that.

    What is surprising (well, in truth, not really) is that the President of the United States and the First Lady are going to be rewarding outspoken opponents of interracial relationships with a White House invite. [Isn’t the President himself the product of an interracial relationship?]

    But the “artists” being invited are black, so I guess it’s okay.

    I eagerly await Glenn’s condemnation of the Obama administration for inviting these “racists” to the White House and then defending the invite.

    I mean, we all know that Glenn is a totally fair-minded guy. If he gets so worked up over a 19-year-old newsletter that almost nobody read and that wasn’t written by Ron Paul and contained claims as controversial as the idea that young black men who commit crimes are capable of running fast, surely he will be a whirling dervish of outrage over this current controversy.

    Surely.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Irene –

    You don’t have to carry around that guilt any more, Glenn—and neither do the, what, fifty four percent of Mississippian Republicans–who are, like, WOW!–MISSISSIPIAN, no less, who are cool with interracial marriage.

    Ah – so since a majority (a bare 54%(!)) of Mississippi Republicans are okay with interracial marriage, that means that the remaining 46% have no influence whatsoever on the party as a whole?

    I’ve heard of dodging the issue, but you’re digging REAL deep to try to defend the GOP on this issue.

  • zingzing

    “What is surprising (well, in truth, not really) is that the President of the United States and the First Lady are going to be rewarding outspoken opponents of interracial relationships with a White House invite.”

    well, i’m sure they’re not “rewarding” them for being “outspoken opponents of interracial relationships.” but that’s certainly the angle fox news will take. given the controversy, it probably wasn’t the smartest move, but if the president has to completely agree with everything every invitee believes before inviting them to the white house, no one would ever get to the white house.

    besides, i don’t know that common or scott have issues with interracial relationships strictly due to racism. it’s connected to the large amount of african american single mothers. that complicates things a bit, and adds a certain layer to the argument that many will gloss over. i’m not sure it makes it ok to me, but it gives on pause for a moment.

    still common and jill scott are certainly middle of the road at this point. some people will say they are controversial, but come on. they’re not nwa or anything.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    Ah, look at RJ’s ready acceptance of the new Fox News line about “Common”. Did he bother to see the other side of the story? Probably not.

    So in order to help him out, here’s some interesting information about Common: about seven months ago, Fox News interviewer Jason Robinson spoke to Common and praised him, saying he’s “very positive.”

    “You’re known as the conscious rapper,” Robinson said. Common responded that being an artist is a “significant role.””

    But NOW, Common is ‘vile’ in the eyes of Fox News because (from RJ’s reference):

    “Burn a Bush cos’ for peace he no push no button,” declared Common in a poem entitled “A Letter to the Law,” criticizing the former president for “killing over oil and grease” and “no weapons of destruction.”

    “Tell the law, my Uzi weighs a ton,” he says in the same poem. “I walk like a warrior, from them I won’t run.”

    “The president opposes those kinds of lyrics,” said Jay Carney, White House Press Secretary during Wednesday’s daily briefing.

    Well, now that we see how Fox News doesn’t like Common, let’s check what they said concerning Ted Nugent:

    Just as Fox News has pivoted its opinion of Common, from “very positive” to “vile,” Hannity’s remarks about Common’s lyrics are in sharp contrast to his thoughts on Ted Nugent’s 2007 onstage remarks that then-candidate Obama “suck on” a machine gun and called him a “piece of shit.”

    When guest Bob Beckel asked about Nugent’s remarks soon after, and whether Hannity was prepared to “disavow this lowlife,” Hannity called Nugent a “friend” and said, “I like Ted Nugent.”

    So now we see how it is with Fox News – when a black rapper says something vile, well, he should be condemned, but when a white rocker says something equally vile, he’s still a friend, still likable.

    But let’s remember now that there’s no racism at all among the Republicans – and even when so many of them are (like 46% of MS Republicans), it’s a Really Bad Thing for us to point it out and rub their noses in it.

  • http://www.gwbush.blogspot.com RJ

    Glenn,

    Your entire bizarre comment at #56 brings to mind what you wrote way back in comment #54:

    “I’ve heard of dodging the issue, but …”

  • http://www.gwbush.blogspot.com RJ

    still common and jill scott are certainly middle of the road at this point. some people will say they are controversial, but come on. they’re not nwa or anything.

    I don’t know anything about Jill Scott, but I do know “Common” has expressed his support for two convicted cop killers (one of whom accepted asylum in a communist dictatorship and is listed as a domestic terrorist), and his “poetry” has suggested he supports violence against police as well as against former President George W. Bush. (Like, setting him on fire.)

    If that is “middle of the road” then I shudder to think what is considered “edgy.”

  • zingzing

    go look at the link in #52. now that’s disturbing, but, like much of hip hop, it’s rooted in fantasy. lyrically, hip hop is almost always about bloated characters. sometimes, they do reflect a belief, but they’re usually so far gone into hyperbolic, fantastical caricaturization that to take it too literally is a big mistake. i haven’t heard the controversial stuff by common, because i think he’s quite dull much of the time. he’s a better actor (a very valuable skill in rap as well,) than he is anything else these days.

    but were these cop killers convicted without controversy? is there any doubt as to their guilt? i wonder. if he believes them innocent, then more power to him.

    that said, conservatives react in horror to things they don’t understand all the time, so this is no big surprise. i’ve never seen such a scared, confused bunch of people. where’s the harm in nwa? where’s the harm in public enemy? lighten up. it’s just music, and if it offends your reality, you should take a hard look at reality some time.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    RJ, like Sean Hannity, could care less about Common, about poetry, and certainly about context. His only interest is in criticizing the president, as harshly and as frequently as possible, using any ready verbal weapon at hand. Of the 100 most important things going on in the country and the world this week, I’d rate this one about 107th, if that.

  • http://www.gwbush.blogspot.com RJ

    Nice to see you’re still ignoring me, handy.

    Let me try to explain this so that you’ll maybe understand. Allow me to set up a hypothetical scenario that is the equivalent of this situation, just with the parties and races reversed.

    So. Instead of a black liberal Democrat First Lady (Michelle Obama) inviting a black rapper/poet (“Common”) to the White House despite his poems supporting black nationalist cop killers (Mumia Abu-Jamal and Assata Shakur), opposing interracial relationships, and encouraging violence against a white Republican President (George W. Bush)…

    …the hypothetical scenario would have a white conservative Republican First Lady inviting a white country musician/poet to the White House despite his poems supporting white nationalist cop killers, opposing interracial relationships, and encouraging violence against a black Democrat President.

    Now, think real hard about this, handy. If the latter had ever happened, don’t you think it would be a news story? That is, do you think the NYT or MSNBC or CNN or the Washington Post might maybe make mention of it a time or two? Don’t you think that maybe you’d get a special email alert from your pals at MMFA about this?

    Now, surely you know the correct answer to those questions, handy. You probably won’t admit it, but you certainly know the answer.

    In such a scenario, the establishment media would go absolutely berserk. It would be a feeding frenzy. MSNBC would be talking about it nonstop for days, probably weeks. The NYT would have front-page stories about it, and countless opinion columns (all with the same opinions, of course). National Democrats would be giving speeches denouncing the President and First Lady as racist. Marches on Washington would be planned. Letterman and Leno and Conan and SNL and The View and The Daily Show and The Colbert Report, etc. would rip the Republican administration endlessly.

    So there’s a bit of a double-standard at work here. Obviously.

    But there’s another difference, too, besides the media bias and the double standards. That difference is simple: There are no country musicians/poets (that I’m aware of) who write shit like that. And if there was, they sure as hell would not be invited to the White House to be honored. And if they were – this is the really important part, handy – if some “poet” like that was actually invited to the White House in a Republican administration, conservatives wouldn’t be defending it or pretending it isn’t an issue or completely ignoring it, like zing and you and Glenn have done, respectively.

    No, conservatives would be openly saying “What the fuck are they thinking? That’s offensive. This jackass needs to be disinvited ASAP.” That’s what our response would be, pretty much unanimously.

    But you, on the Left, will defend your God-King and his administration no matter the facts. That’s the difference.

  • zingzing

    “But you, on the Left, will defend your God-King and his administration no matter the facts. That’s the difference.”

    nah, the difference is that the conservatives will react in fear no matter what. your white hating, cop killing, president burning rapper is a POP STAR.

    he’s queen latifa’s love interest in some movie or another, for god’s sake.

    and TED NUGENT, if you missed it.

    get a grip.

  • Clavos

    Common is…well, common.

    Unfortunately, so’s his country.

  • zingzing

    com’mon, clavos, don’t act like you know shit ’bout common. i don’t even know shit about common and i actually pay attention to that kind of shit. so i know you know less than i know, and i don’t know shit.

  • http://www.gwbush.blogspot.com RJ

    “i don’t know shit.”

    You could add that disclaimer to most of your posts, zing.

  • zingzing

    OH! OH! rj makes a comeback! i’m sure he thought long and hard about it.

    and maybe he realizes the same of himself. how many common albums has rj listened to? none? (that’s a few less than i, but i’ll admit it’s been a good 5 years.)

    where does rj get his information about common? did rj even know common was a rapper before yesterday?

    oh my. rj. such a considered opinion you have. i’m sure you’re making it right and downloading a few common albums now so you know shit.

    otherwise, welcome to my boat, sir. how does it feel? the lack of shit is refreshing, yes?

  • http://cinemasentries.com/ El Bicho

    RJ/Walter, please cite where and when conservatives protested the Bush White House honoring country singer Johhny Cash who sang songs about killing women, about murdering men just for the pleasure of it, about stealing, about taking drugs, about adultery, etc. Or were you not aware of him then?

    “there’s a bit of a double-standard at work here. Obviously”

  • zingzing

    damn… well said, eb. a very pertinent question.

    granted, johnny cash is the shit.

    but damn if he wasn’t an outlaw, while common is pretty tame, even in comparison. one has to wonder if this isn’t just some political partisanship.

  • http://www.gwbush.blogspot.com RJ

    El Bicho, please cite where and when Johnny Cash praised actual racist cop-killers, made quasi-threats against a sitting President, spoke out against interracial relationships, or seemed to threaten violence against police officers. Or were you not aware that was the topic of discussion?

  • Clavos

    com’mon, clavos, don’t act like you know shit ’bout common.

    He’s a rapper — low class music — = common.

    That’s all I need.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Not ignoring you, RJ. Just calling your bluff. Your only interest in this issue, or in poets period, is the opportunity it gives you to name-call against the president and his supporters. Yawn.

    Art, whether good or bad [a subjective judgment], is art, not policy. The Obamas included plenty of less “shocking” poets in the program, whom you ignore, and they are not asking Common to help them formulate policy.

    They asked him as one participant among others to share his art. The art he shared that night was not of the same “shocking” violent nature as some past examples you hand-picked; Common writes other types of lyrics too.

    This is not dissimilar to pretending that some carefully chosen “shocking” clips of Rev. Wright represent his entire work and ministry, as if shock were all he is about.

    It also recalls the laughable ruckus over “Piss Christ” and Robert Mapplethorpe photos. Again, the shouters and screamers picked only “shocking” examples and showed their utter indifference to and ignorance of art.

    You are indifferent to and ignorant of poetry. You know plenty about in-your-face insult politics, because it’s all you do, on here, other than predict football scores [a more respectable pursuit].

  • zingzing

    clavos: “He’s a rapper — low class music — = common. That’s all I need.”

    pathetic, clavos.

  • zingzing

    “the shouters and screamers picked only “shocking” examples and showed their utter indifference to and ignorance of art.”

    yep. clavos and rj are perfect examples of such. utterly pathetic ignorance. that’s all i need.

  • zingzing

    rj: “Or were you not aware that was the topic of discussion?”

    you mean “fox brand made-up controversy of the day”?

    you really must think there’s something more important happening in the world right now, i hope. but you choose to harp on this. why? (not that i mind. with you people all wrapped up in this kind of nonsense, all sorts of shit gets done without you even noticing.)

  • Clavos

    clavos and rj are perfect examples of such. utterly pathetic ignorance.

    Not ignorant, no, I’ve listened to rap — I don’t like it, it’s not art in my estimation, which is just as good as yours or common’s when it comes to what is art and what isn’t.

    I also, for the same reason, don’t like Michael Buble, Michael Jackson, Perry Como or Tony Bennett, plus a mile-long list of other so-called artists which includes ALL rappers (and their noise) and most Latino musicians as well as bluegrass and contemporary country “singers.”

  • zingzing

    “I don’t like it, it’s not art in my estimation, which is just as good as yours or common’s when it comes to what is art and what isn’t.”

    i suppose so.

    “ALL rappers (and their noise)”

    but if that’s all you came away with from your listening, i’d suggest you go back and have another stab at it. it’s a pretty diverse genre, just like anything else.

    and if you don’t like bluegrass, i don’t like your ears! your ears! they offend me.

  • Glenn Contrarian

    For all those who’ve swallowed whole the conservative “Shirley-Sherroding” of Common, here’s the other side of the story.

  • http://www.gwbush.blogspot.com RJ

    Not ignoring you, RJ.

    Why not? Didn’t you vow to do so just a few weeks ago?

    Your only interest in this issue, or in poets period, is the opportunity it gives you to name-call against the president and his supporters.

    handyman, I did not know you could read minds. That’s a pretty amazing skill you have there! Of course, as usual, you’re wrong. Poetry isn’t exactly one of my main interests, but I’ve read Leaves of Grass, and I also know quite a few dirty limericks.

    This is not dissimilar to pretending that some carefully chosen “shocking” clips of Rev. Wright represent his entire work and ministry, as if shock were all he is about.

    handy, those clips were indeed “carefully chosen” by none other than … Jeremiah Wright. His church was selling essentially a “best-of” DVD that included those clips. That’s how the media got a hold of that video. They went to the church and, um, bought it.

    Given that this was the stuff that Jeremiah Wright wanted people to see, I shudder to think what sort of hateful racial venom he spewed that didn’t make the final cut.

    But your larger point seems to be “Well Jeremiah Wright wasn’t accusing white people of creating AIDS for genocide all the time, and Common isn’t supporting cop-killers in all of his poems, so they must be pretty cool guys.” Yet you leftists have no problem whatsoever with demonizing conservatives who occasionally say something politically-incorrect that sounds bad when taken completely out of context. Odd.

    It also recalls the laughable ruckus over “Piss Christ” and Robert Mapplethorpe photos. Again, the shouters and screamers picked only “shocking” examples

    handy, you really are sort of obtuse, aren’t you? When leftists criticize a conservative over something, they tend not to mention all the nice things s/he has done, all of his/her charitable work, all the non-controversial things s/he has said, etc. No, they just highlight the stuff they don’t like about him/her. You’ve noticed that, right?

    But for some reason, you expect conservatives to go out of their way to point out positive things about cop-killer-supporting rappers, or black nationalist Reverends, or Christian-hating “artists.” You can’t be serious.

    You are indifferent to and ignorant of poetry.

    Your mind-reading skills fail you again. I’ve read Walt Whitman, Dylan Thomas, Edgar Allan Poe, Rudyard Kipling, and Dr. Seuss. I believe I also made it to about page fifteen in Jewel’s A Night Without Armor before my eyes began to bleed.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Your adolescent rantings aside, your harping on this issue is about politics, not about art. And your main repetitive point seems to be, liberals aren’t fair to my side, so I enjoy being unfair to them. This may strike you as a point worth making. If so, I’m not the obtuse one.

  • http://handyfilm.blogspot.com handyguy

    Jon Stewart found the right words to describe this ‘scandal’ tonight: “For those who huff only the heady mix of partisan hackery, character assassination and manufactured outrage known as Foxygen…”

  • http://cinemasentries.com/ El Bicho

    “please cite where and when Johnny Cash praised actual racist cop-killers…”

    Johnny Cash spoke in support of jailed AIM leader Leonard Peltier who was convicted and sentenced in 1977 to two consecutive terms of life imprisonment for first degree murder, the execution style shooting of two Federal Bureau of Investigation.

    Looks like you are the one who should be adding the “i don’t know shit” disclaimer.

  • http://www.gwbush.blogspot.com RJ

    “your harping on this issue is about politics, not about art”

    No shit. You figured that out on your own, did you?

    Found it extremely ironic that you accuse me of “adolescent rantings” and then approvingly quote Jon Stewart.

  • http://www.gwbush.blogspot.com RJ

    Touché, Gordon. Although this means Cash was only half as bad as Common when it comes to supporting extremists who murder law enforcement agents. But I was frankly not aware that Cash was such a lunatic. Did Bush know? Was this discussed at all back in 2002? Not being aware of it would be a valid excuse, and that’s certainly not a defense that the Obama administration could make with Common.

    Incidentally, that’s an excellent example of tu quoque, in case Boeke is still interested.

  • Clavos

    At least Cash could sing; common rants.

    Meh.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/dr-dreadful/ Dr Dreadful

    RJ, since Johnny Cash is quite possibly the coolest person ever to walk the earth, perhaps now might be a good time to point out that he was a storyteller. Just as Common is, or Eminem, or Ludacris, or any other outrageous rap artist who might come to mind.

    The lyrics of “San Quentin” do not mean that Cash was a prisoner at San Quentin. The fact that American Psycho is written in the first person does not make Bret Easton Ellis a serial killer. Common talking about tracking down every single member of every cadet branch of the Bush family, herding them into a barn and turning flamethrowers on it, or whatever the fuck it was he’s supposed to have written, doesn’t mean he actually wants to do it.

    And since your admitted purpose is to whine about how liberals, oh, I don’t know, accused Bush of hating all Katrina victims if he so much as twitched a nostril in their presence, I venture the opinion that Handy and zing, your principal opponents here, are pretty even-handed in that respect. Unless, of course, you can point me to some instances of mindless hatin’ exhibited by them during the previous administration.

  • Jordan Richardson

    This is the “inflammatory” passage from Common’s “A Letter to the Law,” which is actually a pretty good track:

    “No time for that, cause there’s things to be done
    Stay true to what I do so the youth dream come
    From project building, seen a fiend being hung
    With that happening, why they messing with Saddam?
    Burn a Bush, cause for peace he no push no button
    Killing over oil and grease, no weapons of destruction
    How can we follow leader when this a corrupt one?”

    Oooh, scary.

  • zingzing

    it’s not about art, it’s not about freedom of speech, it’s about politics, and it’s about trying to make obama look like a white-hating prick. that’s all it is.

  • Jordan Richardson

    It’s also about a lot of people having absolutely nothing better to do with their lives.

  • zingzing

    let’s not get into that territory, jordan…

  • Clavos

    and it’s about trying to make obama look like a white-hating prick. that’s all it is.

    Point taken.

    He’s just an ordinary, common prick…

  • Boeke

    OK, let’s talk about how foreign investors are ripping off the US taxpayer through the oil companies.

    1-the US taxpayer sports the oil companies to $4billion (at least) per year of tax subsidies.

    2-oil companies are internationally traded private companies and are 60% owned by foreign investors.

    Therefore, We The People are subsidizing foreign oil company investors to the tune of $2.4billion per year!

    Who decided that?! Are we NUTS?

    Well, all the world knows we allow open bribery in our congress because of the SCOTUS Consumers United decision.

    We know who the most bribed are:

    [quote]
    This failure to save wasted taxpayer money is but a small portion of the sickening annual handouts to the oil industry through subsidies. Oil Change International explains, “Estimates of the value of US federal subsidies to the domestic oil and gas industry alone (not coal) range from ‘only’ $4 billion a year, to an amazing $52 billion annually. Coal subsidies are roughly another 10 billion annually.”

    Through its DirtyEnergyMoney tabulation website, Oil Change International reports that the 111th House of Representatives has some powerful allies to the oil industry across party lines. From 2009-2010, thirteen House members were each awarded over $100,000 by oil companies alone:

    * Roy Blunt (R-MO) — $269,400
    * Dan Boren (D-OK) — $205,750
    * Chet Edwards (D-TX) — $176,130
    * Joe Barton (R-TX) — $150,870
    * Mike Ross (D-AR) — $135,350
    * K. Michael Conaway (R-TX) — $132,600
    * John Sullivan (R-OK) — $125,800
    * John Fleming (R-LA) — $123,550
    * John Boehner (R-OH) — $119,400
    * Jerry Moran (R-KS) — $113,600
    * Eric Cantor (R-VA) — $110,600
    * Charles Boustany (R-LA) — $109,000
    * Harry Teague (D-NM) –$100,300

    Top givers to the 111th Congressional Representatives of Oil were Koch Industries ($616,513), ExxonMobil ($553,950), Chevron ($373,100) and Valero Energy ($311,250).
    [/quote]

    Amazing how cheap it is to get a US politician to sellout.

  • Clavos

    Hey, Boeke, I know your focus was (rightfully) on the oil company bribes/subsidies, but what about all the political scum being bribed by the unions?

  • Boeke

    If you’ve got something Clavos, then post it.

    It’s not up to me or anyone else to do your research. Don’t be so lazy.

  • Clavos

    No thanks, Boeke, I had my say, and it’s not going to change anything.

    Nothing written here ever does.