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So much stupidity… so little time

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All over the world there are stupid, ignorant and misinformed people parading around in sheep’s–or should I say intelligent people’s clothing. Whether in the political, moral or philosophical world, at least 1 out of every 4 people in modern society is an ignorant buffoon. Below is my account of the past 2 months. I have encountered nothing but ignorant buffoons, leading me to think that, quite possibly, the indie music scene may have a larger concentration of stupid people than most other subcultures.

Starting back in February, I had a bit of a disagreement with a gentleman on one of my sites. Now, you may be thinking, “was it about the war…maybe it was about (insert actual pressing concern here),” but no, sadly it was about basic, inalliable free speech rights. He, as well as several that I have encountered since, seem to think that, while it is OK to have a vocabulary of nothing but four-letter words, talking about God in any sense, or having any morality guiding your life at all extinguishes free speech. So, basically, this gentleman as well as two or three others since think free speech is OK unless you are using it to speak about God, the Bible, or are disagreeing with them on any matter regarding swearing of any kind.

Now, I don’t particularly agree with swearing in music. I think it is kind of like taking a tube of toothpaste into the Louvre and proceeding to smear the paintings with it. Music is art and swearing, by it’s very nature is foul–that is the purpose–to use a word that will shock or in general make the person you are using the word to upset. Swear words are modifiers, meant to make the words around them seem harsher and angrier. Music should be about life experience and beauty. It is art and thus has no room for anything “foul”.

Now, before you get all over me about free speech, the above is my view. I have never tried to push it on anyone. I hold dearly to this view and it shows in my music reviews and in the CD’s that I buy. So, you can see my conundrum when the above said individuals come beating down my door, torch and pitchfork in hand because I am trying to spread a little morality in an other wise morally degenerate hardcore and punk rock scene.

The point of why I write all of this is as follows. I cannot be the only one. I am slowly growing tired of fighting the moral fight. I married my beautiful wife at the age of 19 years old. We were both virgins. I am proud of that. I have lost friends in the past 5 years of my life because I have decided to take moral stands: about music, lifestyle choices and other morally absent activities. I hope and pray that someone out there sees this and thinks to themselves,” I feel that way too, I am not the only one.”

I am not writing this to pat myself on the back, or to appear self-righteous. The only reason that I have been able to make the right decisions is because of Jesus Christ guiding my life. If you are not saved, this post is not for you. You don’t have, in your heart, a guiding determiner between what is right and wrong. If you are saved, and you are a part of the hardcore/punk/emo/indie scene, stand up for what you know is right. Stop justifying things in your mind. Take the Bible literally when it says to think about noble and pure things. Most importantly, once you decide that you are going to serve Christ in the music scene by abstaining from the filth that is infiltrating its way into the Christian and secular market, get active. Write reviews on message boards and sites and include your thoughts on the bad aspects of CD’s. Call a spade a spade. There are more of us who yearn to do right out here than I am seeing in my little corner of the scene. Please, lets untie and do what we are on this earth to do–glorify the name of Christ and bring others to Him. I am sure God in all of His majesty is getting pretty sick of Christians arguing over clear sin issues like swearing. Lets divert that same energy into winning the lost.

If you would like to talk this over further, please email me at namelessface777@hotmail.com.

Jeff Petermann

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About Jeff Petermann

  • http://www.sanfordmay.com san

    “If you are not saved… You don’t have, in your heart, a guiding determiner between what is right and wrong.”

    You’re right: I evaluate right and wrong in my MIND.

  • http://www.foliage.com/~marks Mark Saleski

    >You don’t have, in your heart, a guiding determiner between what is right and wrong.

    so…if i am, say, a buddhist, thus following associated precepts…i have no guiding determiner for moral action?

    sure. you keepin tellin’ yourself that.

  • http://www.resonation.ca Jim Carruthers

    It’s really sad that you would brick up any curiousity you might have about the world and civilization, letting it starve to death on a diet of dogma and superstition.

    So, if you are expecting to “literally” apply the tenets of a crazed desert cult to modern life and “indie” music, please let me know how slavery, ritual sacrifice, kosher food, and general inconsistency figure into things as they are now lived.

    I think River in Firefly put it best when she said the Bible was broken and she would fix it.

  • http://www.resonation.ca Jim Carruthers

    Oh, by the way, in case you wonder about my credentials on things spiritual, I am both a registered Buddist (with the Canadian Navy, because you might as well get officially registered with the people who have the weapons to back up your shit) and an ordained Minister in the Universal Life Church. So don’t piss me off or I’ll send your ass to hell out of sheer spite.

  • http://www.flyovercountry.blogspot.com Chris

    Jeff,

    I appreciate your thoughts but in a post about how swearing is a clear sin issue . . . your website, or the one your name links to, has an article titled, “I Am An Old Fuck.”

  • http://www.slumdance.com/blogs/brian_flemming/ Brian Flemming

    Jeff,

    I can’t quite tell what your post is asking for. It is riddled with contradictions.

    For example, this…

      I am not writing this to pat myself on the back, or to appear self-righteous.

    …clearly contradicts this…

      If you are not saved, this post is not for you. You don’t have, in your heart, a guiding determiner between what is right and wrong.

    How do you hold that you are not being self-congratulatory or self-righteous and at the same time claim that those who have not had the same religious conversion experience as you do not know the difference between right and wrong?

    Also this statement…

      Most importantly, once you decide that you are going to serve Christ in the music scene by abstaining from the filth that is infiltrating its way into the Christian and secular market, get active. Write reviews on message boards and sites and include your thoughts on the bad aspects of CD’s. Call a spade a spade.

    …contradicts this statement…

      I am sure God in all of His majesty is getting pretty sick of Christians arguing over clear sin issues like swearing. Lets divert that same energy into winning the lost.

    Where should the energy go–into criticizing filth or saving the damned?

    Also, on behalf of every non-Christian on Earth–all five billion-plus of us–I would like to give you a hearty “Fuck you.”

    I know that is swearing, but it is clearly the most appropriate response to someone who stands in public, points at me and says, “You are not moral.”

    Jeff, you’ve placed yourself in a superior position to EVERYONE ELSE ON EARTH. And you have trumpeted this belief publicly. I don’t mind if you believe in private that everyone on Earth but you and other followers of Christ does not have “a guiding determiner between what is right and wrong.” But when you express this prejudice in public, I’m going to, well, call a spade a spade.

    Your belief in your own moral superiority is unfounded. “So much stupidity” indeed. Your desire to spread that belief to others is potentially toxic–every bit as toxic as racism, which also places the believer of the dogma above all others.

    As a former born-again Christian, I have an intimate knowledge of this kind of prejudice. I know that part of the dogma is that you need to go out and witness. But if you feel that compels you to say to the unsaved masses, “You don’t have, in your heart, a guiding determiner between what is right and wrong,” you can expect to be called what you clearly are.

    You are a bigot.

  • http://www.flyovercountry.blogspot.com Chris

    Brian and Jeff,

    Let’s recast this article in simpler terms, removing any overreaching, by each of you.

    If you are going to be in a Christian Band, hold yourself out to be a Chritian Band and market to Christians, it would be a good idea to not put some things in your music or live a certain way. Maybe more than a good idea, it would be the right thing to do.

    Boiled down it is a pretty good argument, whatever your personal beliefs. Analogy I think works for both of you, maybe not though: Hearing a Christian Band use fuck in a song would be like hearing Rage Against The Machine (or Audioslave, etc.) sing about how great George Bush is.

  • Eric Olsen

    This is quite a discussion, into which I will not cast a substantive opinion. However, I will say that Jeff was brave to state his ethos as uncompromisingly as he did, but I think he should have been clearer in stating that his views on religion apply to his life as opposed to all lives, since clearly people do have other moral compasses than Christianity. Some of the most stringently moral people I know are atheists.

    But it is also a perfectly legitimate assertion that people should publicly live up to their beliefs and not succumb to situational ethics.

  • Jeff Petermann

    Again, you all have proved my point. Thanks.

  • http://www.foliage.com/~marks Mark Saleski

    …and you have proved ours.

    thank you.

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    Wow, I can’t think of much to say to this that someone I know hasn’t already said. So to the general comments about swearing, I reply with this article about swearing, written by Eric Rigney.

    And regarding the passionate plea for emails, I reply with this article about “Wretched Urgency”, written by Michael Spencer (aka The Internet Monk).

    For the rest, well, what can I say? Plaese focus a little more on “Love your neighbor” and a little less on stances are Biblically unsupported beyond a(n over-)generous application of Philippians 4:8. Please re-read Romans and stop embarrassing yourself with foolish and inaccurate claims about whether or not a non-believer can tell right from wrong. And please, please, please realize that pride is a sin, a really bad one. Unlike most of the things you look down in your post.

    Thanks for reading. And read that “Wretched Urgency” article again.

  • http://www.slumdance.com/blogs/brian_flemming/ Brian Flemming

    Eric,

    You wrote:

      I will say that jeff was brave to state his ethos as uncompromisingly as he did

    I guess “brave” is one word to apply. I suppose it would also be “brave” to say something like: “This message is not intended for non-Aryan people. If you are not white, you obviously have no way to distinguish between right and wrong.”

    It would take a certain amount of courage to say something that obnoxious in a public forum, exposing one’s bigotry for all to see.

    But, in addition to “brave,” it would also be a few other things.

    Jeff,

    Do you disagree that your prejudice against those who do not share your particular religious belief is indistinguishable from racial prejudice, or does your silence on the matter indicate that you agree?

    If you disagree, what’s the difference?

  • Jeff Petermann

    Here are my thoughts. First of all to Phillip: I have attended a Christian school, a public school and then decided to pursue seminary. I have studied Greek and Hebrew and I know what Phillipians 4:8 says. I also know what Paul was talking about when he was discussing the meat sacrificed to idols and whether or not is should be available to eat. Go read that section of scripture. Then come back and tell me that what I am saying about Christians making other Christians stumble is wrong.

    I am not religiously discriminating against anyone. In fact, I said in the above article that if you are not a believer, this post is not for you. I am simply saying, and I will end with this, religion doesn’t save you, going to church doesn’t save you–a relationship with Jesus Christ saves you. If you are living like the facts that I listed above are merely speculative opinion–you better be right, because when it is all said and done,”EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.”(emphasis mine)

  • http://www.ellensmith.blogspot.com esmith

    I think it’s Louvre, not Louver. It was in the third paragraph,not the first where you were talking about stupid people in sheep’s clothing.

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    Jeff – I am a believer, so logically this post was for me. However, while it fulfilled one of the two requirements I’ve discerned that Christ followed on the rare occasions he was critical of others (it was directed at those who claim the name of God), it seemed to fail on the other (it was not directed at internal attitudes, but at external actions). As it happens, I’m not a swearing person, but my own “moral fight” isn’t the issue at hand here.

    I won’t get into a urinating contest with you over which of us has spent the most time in Christian schools or studied the most Greek. In fact, this will be my last post on the matter. Instead I will simply say this: I am sorry that you have rejected the body of Christ’s communication with us and chosen to focus instead on prideful false holiness. I urge you to read both of the articles I mentioned in my original post, since it doesn’t appear you have yet, and consider them carefully as advice written by Christians and recommended by a Christian, and spend some time considering what place pride has in your life and how pride rates against some of the external behaviors that beset you. The latter half of 2 Cor 10 might be helpful here, too.

    Now, that aside, since this is my last comment, I’m going to make it worth my while by addressing the issue I think you meant to focus on, instead of the one you did. I have seen many, many people who outwardly profess the name of Christ and yet it has no effect whatsoever on their behavior. Sometimes this is because they bear the label as a result of a labeled upbringing but have never internalized the general moral flavor of Christianity. I’ll leave it as an exercise for the readers to determine whether those people meet Christ’s standard for being one of His people. Reference James, perhaps, in making that consideration.

    Sometimes I’ve seen people who have no desire whatsoever to actually be a Christian or live the life of a Christian, but see the undiscerning audience that buys every piece of garbage the “Christian music” industry puts out as a cash cow. I’ve heard rumors that much the same is true in the country industry, but I’ll stick with what I know and have seen myself.

    And sometimes people just don’t know better, because what is “obvious” to you is not at all obviously anything other than a cultural influence to many people, even Christian people.

    So I understand your frustration with people who blithely and routinely claim a label without exerting the sacrifice and effort one should to earn that label. But I encourage you to apply Phil 4:8 yourself and take your eyes off of those who vex you so and concentrate a bit more on your own relationship with Christ. I’m (mercifully) not the arbiter in such things, and it could be that you’re simply having a bad day, but your statements here tell me that you’ve got more problems in your Christian life than how bands whose CDs you review act on the road.

    Peace.

  • Jeff Petermann

    First, I always screw the word “Louvre” up. Thank you for pointing that out, it has been corrected.

    Phillip, Thanks for the honest and sincere discussion. I will read those articles and I will also pray about my attitude. While everything I said above i stand by, I may have done it with a little bit of anger and that never gets the correct message across.

    Eric, thank you for reading this in the spirit that it should have been written in. Thank you for not putting up devensive walls and just reading the article. As always, you are the man.

  • http://www.sanfordmay.com san

    If you are not an atheist, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, Jainist, Episcopalian, Shintoist, etc., this comment is not for you.

    Oh, come on, esmith, can’t you see he was writing about WINDOW BLINDS? Apparently, German window blinds, because he capitalized the common noun.

    And for Jeff: Christ died for posts like yours.

    (NOTE: I may should not have posted this, but since I’m not saved — although I was once “saved” by the police from three muggers; does that count? — and have been recently informed that I possess no “determiner between what is right and wrong”, I feel a strange sense of release. I’m like a wolf in sheep’s clothing, or something. So what the hell. Oh, sorry, Jeff… Hell.)

  • http://www.sanfordmay.com san

    Phil, baby, it’s “pissing contest”. If you need something without the P-word in it, try “circular polemics” or the like.

  • http://www.slumdance.com/blogs/brian_flemming/ Brian Flemming

    If you are Jeff Petermann, this comment is not for you. You don’t have, in your heart, a guiding determiner between what is right and wrong.

    Everyone else, I have 2 questions. Consider this quote from Jeff:

      …because when it is all said and done,”EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.”

    My questions are:

    1. If George W. Bush believes this, are you comfortable with that?

    2. If George W. Bush believes this, do you think Muslims in the Middle East should welcome the U.S. military with open arms?

  • Jeff Petermann

    yeah, you’re right, I would be way more comfortable with him believing it is cool to have sex with anything that moves like his predecessor.

  • http://www.slumdance.com/blogs/brian_flemming/ Brian Flemming

    Jeff,

    I said that comment wasn’t for you.

    But since you read it anyway, how about actually answering the two questions I posed instead of taking a shot at President Libido?

    To refresh your memory…

    ———————
    I have 2 questions. Consider this quote from Jeff:

      …because when it is all said and done,”EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.”

    My questions are:

    1. If George W. Bush believes this, are you comfortable with that?

    2. If George W. Bush believes this, do you think Muslims in the Middle East should welcome the U.S. military with open arms?

    ————————

    I await your direct, non-evasive answers.

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    Brian –
    1. As long as it doesn’t affect his work, sure.
    2. Since his actions don’t seem to be those of a man trying to engineer some sort of mystical showdown at Armageddon, yes. That they don’t has nothing to do with the President’s faith and everything to do with a culture that is oriented towards things that we in the west don’t tend to label “success.” Note the distinct lack of an imflammatory value judgement – I merely state things in the terms with which I’m most comfortable, without bringing in my own private judgement on the wisdom or moral “rightness” of those actions.

    Heck, I believe Jeff’s statement as well, being Biblical and all, but I also place it at some point in the unforseeable future, well past my own progeny’s lifespans for as long as I can imagine. Therefore it doesn’t affect my actions in any way. That is, I strive to keep my actions in line with Christian morality, but not because of that particular verse. it’s a matter of personal character for me.

  • http://www.slumdance.com/blogs/brian_flemming/ Brian Flemming

    Phillip,

    I sincerely appreciate the directness of your answers.

    1. I personally am not comfortable with a President who clearly believes that he belongs to a special group of people who are going to Heaven, and everyone else is damned (he has said this, quite directly), even if he has the political acumen not to talk about it very much. I worry about it the same way I would worry if he were a member of the KKK but had pledged not to let his racism influence policy. Thanks for the reassurance W, but…you still feel that way, deeply, and that’s a problem.

    I’m not sure how a feeling rooted this deeply could possibly not “affect his work.” I worry, frankly, about the kind of personality that could form this point of view. It seems to me to require great insensitivity and arrogance, as well as a lack of (or suspension of) intellectual rigor. Calling Billy Graham to settle an argument with his mother about who is going to Heaven? Please. I’ll take President Blowjob any day over that.

    2. You write, “Since his actions don’t seem to be those of a man trying to engineer some sort of mystical showdown at Armageddon, yes.” I don’t get it. What would those actions look like. I mean, if a Muslim in the Middle East were to ask these questions, how would you answer them:

    If your President believes we are spiritually inferior to him, how can we trust him?

    If your President is not trying to export Christianity to our region, why does he let the evangelical minister closest to him come here and proselytize? Why doesn’t he at least ask Graham, Will you please not do that?

  • Jeff Petermann

    My answer was a direct response. I am very comforable with the president having faith in God, and in his belief that at the end of things, we will all answer to God. I agree with Phillip in the sense that i was not saying that we all have to bow before the Lord now. In fact it won’t happen until the judgment.

    So in response to your comment, yes, I am more than happy with the president’s beliefs and I definitely think that the Muslims should welcome us with open arms because right now their only other alternatives are eiter:
    1. Mass anarchy
    2. Starving to death or dying from lack of water
    3. Continuing with the holy wars against themselves until they all die off

    I think welcoming a president with morals and a belief in God sounds like a way better alternative.

    One more thing. If I am wrong, and Christianity is nothing but a farse, and their is no God and we will never have to face him, then the worst thing that would happen is that I lived a good life. If you are wrong, and their is a God, and we will have to face Him in a final judgement, what do you think the worst outcome of that scenario would be?

    Just a thought.

  • http://www.sanfordmay.com san

    “1. Mass anarchy
    2. Starving to death or dying from lack of water”

    Two circumstances that we caused by invading Iraq. We are morally obligated to fill these needs, whether or not we are accepted with open arms.

    “If you are wrong, and their is a God, and we will have to face Him in a final judgement what do you think the worst outcome of that scenario would be?”

    Depends on which God you are talking about. Old Testament God or New Testament God? They are different gods. It’s unfortunate these distinct bodies of work were slapped together in the same book: That has confused a lot of people.

  • http://www.slumdance.com/blogs/brian_flemming/ Brian Flemming

    If you are wrong, and their is a God, and we will have to face Him in a final judgement, what do you think the worst outcome of that scenario would be?

    GOD: Well, Brian Flemming, here it is, Judgment Day, why should I not condemn you to eternal suffering?

    BRIAN: Because You are a kind and gracious God?

    GOD: Yeah, right. Nice one. Seriously, I got lots of people to judge today, give me your best reason.

    BRIAN: Well, I never held myself to be superior to everyone else on your Earth.

    GOD: Works for me. You’re in. Grab a harp. Cloud 44762 is open. It’s a nice one. Peter, incoming!

    BRIAN: Thanks, God.

    GOD: No problem.

    BRIAN: Say, has Jeff Petermann been judged yet?

    GOD: Why, yes, he has.

    BRIAN: And…

    GOD: Had to let him in.

    BRIAN: Really? Why? He put himself above everyone else on Earth. He expressed a desire to beat Rodney King’s “sorry drunk butt.”

    GOD: You don’t know the half of it. But he had me on a technicality. That whole John 3:16 thing.

    BRIAN: That really works? You can just do whatever you want, not even strive to be good to others, but if you have “accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord blah blah blah” that’s like a magic incantation?

    GOD: Well, it wasn’t supposed to be, but a whole shitload of Christians took it that way, and I don’t like to be a dick about things.

    BRIAN: God, you’re swearing. Isn’t that–

    GOD: –forbidden? Where the fuck did you get that idea? That’s not even in the Bible. Not that I even wrote that thing. Don’t get me started.

    BRIAN: You sure you couldn’t condemn Jeff to Hell, as a favor?

    GOD: Sorry. Everyone in Heaven will have to put up with him. And just to warn you–he’s already decided who among the saved are the “good” saved and who are the “bad” saved.

    BRIAN: Jesus fucking Christ.

    GOD: Tell me about it. The guy actually tried to witness to me. Asked me if I had accepted Jesus as my Lord and blah blah blah.

    BRIAN: What’d you tell him?

    GOD: I told him, “Hell no. I have no God but Me.” That’s when he said I lacked “a guiding determiner between what is right and wrong.”

    BRIAN: And you didn’t smite him?

    GOD: No, I got will power, thank Me. All right, move it along now, lots of people to judge. Oh, and just so you know? I had to let Bush in, too.

    BRIAN: Damn. This is the worst possible outcome. (hangs head, walks toward pearly gates)

    GOD: Hey, Brian?

    BRIAN: (turning around) Yeah?

    GOD: Just fucking with you. Bush didn’t make it.

    BRIAN: You fucker!

    GOD: Me be with you.

    (and Brian skips through the pearly gates)

  • Jeff Petermann

    Completely ignoring the witty yet inane post above, lets go on to sanfords comment.

    Different Gods in the new and old testmanet? Have you studied the Bible? The new and old testament are under different dispensations. The law and grace. Same God. All but the most left of Biblical scholars agree that it is the same God…oh wait I forgot who I was talking to. Seriously folks, don’t take my word, or sanfords word…or any of the people on this posts word for it…study the Bible for yourself–it is pretty self-explanatory. Start with the gospel of John.

    Brian, you seemed to want me to answer your questions directly and yet, all you could come up with was a “funny” little story about meeting God in heaven. How about you answer my question directly instead of avoiding it?

  • Jeff Petermann

    sorry, “san”‘s comment, not sanford.

  • http://www.sanfordmay.com san

    Jeff, count me in the left of (amateur) Bible scholars, although I didn’t know we had left and right wings in academic theology. Good news: Another place where I can be a Commie.

    Some of the Old Testament is spent dealing with prior myths: Egyptian, etc. Essentially, putting a new spin on the old myths that were commonly accepted at the time. “The law and the grace” doctrine is a way of reconciling the extremely disparate natures of the two different gods as portrayed in the Old and New Testaments with a belief system that accepts them as one God. Otherwise, you have to admit that they or two gods, or that the one God is schizophrenic. Thus, the development of “the law and the grace” doctrine. Both books are, however, part myth, part history.

    But let’s put that aside, Jeff. That’s the very nature of faith: abiding belief in the face of all reasonable evidence to the contrary. And it’s not my place — or a wholesome thing — to try and rob you of your faith. The problem I have with your post is that you stated quite directly that those individuals who are not Christians have no moral compass. To be Christian is to be Christ-like, following the teachings of Christ, and such a grave offense as you committed is not Christ-like.

    I have a quite accurate moral compass: I know the difference between right and wrong, though I do largely rely on my own judgment for this analysis. Like all humans, I do not always choose the right path, but I usually know, more or less, where that path is.

    In answer to your question: If I am wrong, and there is indeed a Christian God or the like, I will hope that this God will show me mercy in His judgment. But if I am dispatched to an eternity of damnation because I used my mind, with which this Creator endowed me, then so be it.

    And “san” and “Sanford” are the same person. “san” is just a nickname.

  • http://www.ellensmith.blogspot.com esmith

    You’re welcome for the Louvre. I’m sorry you always screw it up.

    If you need any more help with spelling feel free to email me. I’m not much too look at and I’m not real smart and I’m afraid not very witty. I don’t write too well or have a lot of opinions like Kathleen Parker or Ann Coulter or Maureen Dowd.

    But oh spelling. Oh my.

  • http://www.slumdance.com/blogs/brian_flemming/ Brian Flemming

    Brian, you seemed to want me to answer your questions directly and yet, all you could come up with was a “funny” little story about meeting God in heaven. How about you answer my question directly instead of avoiding it?

    Your question:

    If you are wrong, and their is a God, and we will have to face Him in a final judgement, what do you think the worst outcome of that scenario would be?

    My answer: Eternal damnation. Believe me, I know. I was instructed in the risk of eternal damnation for years, by people who sounded quite a lot like you. I made a decision not to be ruled by fear a long time ago, and it made me a better person, I think. To each his own.

    Let me echo San(ford) on the whole Christ thing. While I no longer believe in the hocus-pocus part of religion, Jesus Christ remains a hero of mine. I put him up there with Charles Darwin and Dr. King. Like Sanford, I get personally offended when someone uses Christ’s name to support a bigoted world view. It’s akin to using King’s name to support violence. It stinks.

  • Jeff Petermann

    I appreciate the thoughtful discussion that this has brought on. If I have offended anyone, in a way I am sorry. I will end my portion of this post by saying that the God that I have given my life to serving, is a God of love. He loves everyone and sent His Son to die for everyone. He is also a just God. He has provided a simple plan to beat eternal damnation, acceptance of His Son. It is a simple yes or not type of an answer that can, unfortunately cost you eternity. We can, for now, agree to disagree, but I urge all of you, no matter how you grew up or what bad experiences you have had, to read John 3:16. Think about the verse, and then think about how easy a descision to choose Christ really is. I have n othing against any of you, and contrary to popular opinion I am not a bigot, I love people, I just also have a very stron argumentative side.

    Oh, and th clear up the moral compass thing, all I was trying to say was that people who are not beleivers, while they can do good things and make right choices, have no reason to do so, and quite frankly I should not hold them to the same accountability level that I would someone who professes the name of Christ. I too no plenty of good people, non-christians in fact, who make good choices all of the time. I also no lots of Christians who make bad choices. I tend to come down alot harder on the Christians who make bad choices than I do the non-Christians who make bad choices.

    Please email me with any questions about how I stand, I would be more than happy to talk further about this.

  • http://www.myaimistrue.com Amber

    Yeah Jeff. While your post did get me a little riled at first, I hear what you’re saying. For everyone that misunderstood Jeff about the “no moral director of right and wrong” comment or whatever it was, I understand that he was trying to say this:

    • Christians have a set standard to which they hold their lives: The Bible.

    • If you are not a Christian, then your standard for living is not the Bible, it’s something else. Therefore, you may not understand the reasoning behind his argument, or you may misinterpret it as something else (as many of you did).

    I think if that had been worded a little differently he would have been less of a turnoff for people. But it was a valiant effort, Jeff.

    Oh, and I kind of felt a little convicted for laughing at it, but that little heaven/God scenario was truly a riot. God prolly smirked at you too. Hahaha.

    Laters.

  • http://www.eee.com Andrew

    Hang in there Jeff. I agreed with your post. It looks like a lot of people thought you were calling them stupid and they felt like the shoe fit.

    To be a Christian is to put the love for God as the most important thing in your life. To know him and walk with him is the greatest experience.

    This journey, when walked in true love brings about changes in a person. They do things, or don’t do things to please their God, not out of obligation. Anyone who has been in love, true love, understands this.

    If swearing offends your wife, girlfriend, hubby . . . you don’t do it around them if you love them.

    Why, because you love them and you want to make them happy. If a person still swears around there loved one I am sure you hurt your relationship and quite honestly you are a bit of a jerk.

    Now in some circles I am sure “jerk” is a swear. Thankfully God no longer requires pefection from me. That should irk a few nonbelievers who think I am using my “get out of hell free card”.

    God knows what’s good for me and what’s good for others. Most of his laws are not that unreasonable. Don’t kill people, don’t sleep with a person’s wife, lie or steal just to name a few. Oh yeah, and don’t use coarse language.

    Don’t confuse what gets you to heaven with what builds up other people, and what spreads love.

    I hope someone comes up with a good argument on how swearing brings people to know Jesus, or promotes world peace.

    – – – – – – – – – –

    Now regarding dispensations. There are none. The God of the OT is the same as the NT and they behave very much the same.

    The OT is about God and his mercy. Man turns from God, God pursues man. Throughout the OT God forgives and gives second and third and fourth chances. God knows a man’s heart though. If it is black and will never change . . . nothing good can come of it for that person.

    Oh yeah, dispensations. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. For God, that meant past, present and future. It gave Jesus, who showed up from time to time in the Old Testament the right to forgive sins and accept faith.

    – – – – – – – –

    I love the Bible. It’s a great book that continues to be proven historically accurate through historical discovery. It’s been mocked for hundreds of years as talking about fictional places, now known to exist. It has been laughed at for talking about kings that could not have lived that are now known to have ruled.

    What is it that upsets people about the Bible anyway?

    Andrew

  • uglyamerican

    It’s okay to post snarky, ugly, and derisive things on your website, as long as the cd you’re listening to at the time doesn’t have any dirty words on it.

  • http://w6daily.winn.com/ Phillip Winn

    Brian – I promised I wouldn’t respond any more to this post, then forgot and responded to you. Sorry. I’ve decided to reinterpret that earlier statement to mean that I wouldn’t respond to Jeff’s post, but this will truly be my final post on this entire page. 8^)

    1. I personally am not comfortable with a President who…
    I can understand that. Few of us are comfortable having people in authority over us with completely different worldviews. That discomfort? I suspect it is a lot of what drove the virulently anti-Clinton people during his tenure. People argue issues, but they really dislike people based on personal views and things having little to do with the issues at hand. Generally.

    The basic distinction I would make for you is based only on how I view life. How that is similar to or different from how the President views life, I don’t really know. But if you met me and we hung out together, you’d probably like me, just like the variety of people I hang around with now, Christians, Buddhists, athiests, and so on. And yet I still believed that at the end of time, I’ll be better off. The thing is, that’s later. Life is now. In this life, I live. I’m responsible to God only for how I live and what I do, not for you or what you do or how you live or the choices you make. It is my hope that I can live in a way that causes the people around me to respect me and therefore be a witness as Christ directed Christians to be. I don’t feel a burning need to proselytize people en masse, and I don’t see much Biblical support for the concept. I live my life, you live yours, and maybe one day you’ll ask me what’s up. Or you won’t. Frankly, the way I struggle through life is pretty much no different from the way anybody else does, so it isn’t like I’m super-Christian or anything. I keep on, and don’t even pretend to have all of the easy answers to all of life’s problems.

    How is this different from a KKK member? I submit that a nasty racist believes in something here and now, and that is must therefore affect his actions. While I believe that there is nothing in this world that distinguishes me from you (only in the next), a racist believes that there is. Now and here, he believes himself to be superior to whatever race he’s particular upset about. It’s this separation of present-tense and future-tense that distinguishes – or should distinguish – Christians from many other groups who hold themselves in higher esteem.

    This is also how “a feeling rooted this deeply could possibly not ‘affect his work.'” I don’t think I’ve got too warped of a personality, but maybe I’m missing it. I don’t consider myself insensitive. And though I’m prone to arrogance, it’s ironically usually related to my intellectual capacity and the intellectual rigor with which I approach all of life.

    2. You write, “Since his actions don’t seem to be those of a man trying to engineer some sort of mystical showdown at Armageddon, yes.” I don’t get it. What would those actions look like.
    I’m a preterist (a theological term to describe those of us who believe that the majority of events described in Revelation are past-tense, not future events as described in Left Behind), so I’m probably not the best person to ask about how the final battle at Armageddon is suppose to work. It certainly would (hypothetically, if it wasn’t an unbiblical notion to begin with) involve direct battle between Israel and her neighbors, something President Bush seems to be going to great pains to avoid. Amazingly, Prime Minister Sharon is playing along, which means that he’s either got a much more clever plan than I can figure out or he’s not quite as blood-thirsty as I’ve suspected. What else would it look like? Heck, I don’t know. Like I said, it’s a farce.

    I’ll say this: even within dispensational theology as I remember it from back when I cared, the events at the end of time are initiated by God, not man, and all of the chaos follows the sudden disappearance of two billion people from the face of the earth. Er, except that people who track dispensational theology tend to be much more selective and discount, for example, the entire Roman Catholic church as non-Christian, so I guess it would be less than one billion. Maybe much less. I don’t know – it’s all so unbiblical I don’t really care.

    [From a Middle-Eastern Moslem] If your President believes we are spiritually inferior to him, how can we trust him?
    For the same reason that people here can trust him. America is a pluralistic society, not because the men who established didn’t believe in God, but because they recognized that even good men disagree on issues and important issue like this are best left out of the hands of those with the power to enforce their own views on others. Though President Bush is a Christian, he has supported people of all faiths and worked hard to ensure that others under his authority do the same, including calling for all Americans to treat all Arab people in America with respect. That there is disagreement with regard to his administration’s mistreatment of certain people who happen to be Arab or Moslem, that is unrelated to their religion, or linked only incidentally as it relates to security risks. While I disagree with the choices of his administration, I am free to do so, and you will be free to do so as well, in most cases for the first time in your lives. (Allowing for the translation between protesting a foreign government and your own, of course.)

    [From a Middle-Eastern Moslem] If your President is not trying to export Christianity to our region, why does he let the evangelical minister closest to him come here and proselytize? Why doesn’t he at least ask Graham, Will you please not do that?
    Again, America is a pluralistic and free society. President Bush doesn’t have the power to stop Graham from traveling or speaking. He also hasn’t stopped Moslem Imams or Clerics from speaking or proseltyizing. In an ideal world, you would be able to hear all of the opposing points of view we hear here in America and make your own informed choice, rather than hearing only one story and having no choice at all.

    Speaking frankly, many people still choose to refuse to listen to opposing points of view, but that is again their right. They are free to choose not to listen if they don’t wish to, as you are or will soon be able to.

    This assumes, of course, that you live in one of the Arab countries that has some level of freedom.

    For all I know, President Bush might have asked Graham not to visit (thought I doubt it). That doesn’t mean Graham had to follow that advice. Here in America, leaders cannot issue death sentences at will. They have to subvert the justice system first! Oops, sorry, a little joke.

    Brian – I think that full and directly addresses your questions. I don’t really wish to play the “moral compass” game, though Amber may have done a reasonable job of settling things down. I will say this: one favorite modern philosopher of mine (Francis Schaeffer) stated once that no matter what moral system one choose or devises, he will always eventually violate it or act contrary to it. It is in the nature of man to do so. I would add to that that Christianity is the same way, and while I view Jeff as a brother because I don’t put myself in a position to discount his own claim to faith, there is no question in my mind that he violated several basic points of the Christian faith quite publicly, with embarrassing results. So everybody has “a” moral guide. Romans explains a little bit of why this is so, or you can choose to view it as a social construct brought on by the random firing of neurons as a method of survival. It doesn’t matter to me how you view it. As long you stick within the rules set down by most societies within Western civilization, we’ll get along just fine.

    And I’m out – peace!

    P.S. I’ll go with Andrew on the no-dispensations thing, though I still refer to my earlier-linked article to “defend” coarse language, as a non-sin at least. And cheers to the uglyamerican, though I skimmed a few of Jeff’s posts on his own site and found nothing particular objectionable. Note that it is a group site, so you might have read posts by other people. And I might have missed one. 8^)

  • http://www.slumdance.com/blogs/brian_flemming/ Brian Flemming

    I can understand that. Few of us are comfortable having people in authority over us with completely different worldviews.

    Sorry, Phillip. You missed the mark here. A Buddhist would have a completely different world view. An African would likely have a different world view. Those people wouldn’t necessarily scare me. I am not made uncomfortable by authority figures with “different” world views.

    You evaded what I wrote–and quite obviously, too. In the “quote” of my statement, you conveniently cut it off right at the actual meat of the statement:

    I personally am not comfortable with a President who clearly believes that he belongs to a special group of people who are going to Heaven, and everyone else is damned.

    You can be comfortable with that if you like. Apparently you are. But it is clearly not the “difference” of this world view that I expressed a discomfort with. It is the SUPERIORITY of this world view. As I wrote:

    I worry, frankly, about the kind of personality that could form this point of view. It seems to me to require great insensitivity and arrogance, as well as a lack of (or suspension of) intellectual rigor.

    It is those elements of Bush’s apparent world view that disturb me, not merely the “difference.”

    While I believe that there is nothing in this world that distinguishes me from you (only in the next), a racist believes that there is.

    There’s little real difference here. You believe you are saved. You believe I am “lost” or “damned.” You don’t believe this in the “next” world. You believe it right now. Therefore, you believe that, in a way, you are superior to me. And in a significant way, too–that whole eternal life thing.

    President Bush doesn’t have the power to stop Graham from traveling or speaking.

    You ducked the question. The question was, Why doesn’t he ask Graham not to do that. He and Graham are friends. They’re close. George W. Bush is allowed to ask his friends not to cause trouble in the Middle East. He hasn’t. He is also allowed to make public statements. He could distance himself from Graham’s activities and say he doesn’t approve. He hasn’t.

    “It’s a free country” is not a get-out-of-moral-obligation-free card. President Bush has criticized plenty of people in his official capacity. Why not Graham?

    Answer: He must approve.

    You have a better answer?

    Jeff,

    If I have offended anyone, in a way I am sorry.

    In a way, I accept your apology. By “in a way,” I mean I accept it in the non-apology, Trent-Lott-style spirit in which it was intended.

    Oh, and to clear up the moral compass thing, all I was trying to say was that people who are not believers, while they can do good things and make right choices, have no reason to do so…

    Boy, that foot just won’t stay out of your mouth, will it?

  • Jeff Petermann

    It is very hard to agree with the thought of Christians thinking of themselves as superior because they are going to heaven and the rest of the world is damned. It would be one thing if it were something that Christians did that would get them there. It is not. The only thing that you have to do is make a choice. Follow Christ, or don’t follow Christ. I am not better than you because I have made the choice to follow Christ–I am just redeemed, meaning that because I made that choice, my sins are washed away by Christ’s death on the cross. It is nothing I do–it is what Christ has done, thus rendering me incapable of thinking myself any better than you or anyone else. I have never understood why a simple choice to follow Christ can be so distorted into such a perplex moral problem. It is so easy, and yet some make it so difficult.

  • http://www.fdgsdf.com Andrew Campbell

    Brian:

    There is a world of difference between a racist and the christian belief of salvation.

    Racists are filled with hate. A real christian is a person full of love. Christians do not think they are above anyone. They are in love with the Living God and persue that relationship. It is true that they also believe they are avoiding the wrath of God.

    For some christians the pain that knowing a loved one is missing out on a great encounter with God and facing a horrible doom is too much. They press hard on their loved ones and drive them away. The overly ambitious christian does not understand that it is God himself who saves and no one else.

    Some people filled with hate get the strange idea that God has given them permission and even a call to hate. This of course is never true. If you are a hater you may be (and most likely are) a racist. You cannot be a person of God and a person of hate at the same time. So if anyone thinks God wants you to kill or harm abortion clinic workers, lumberjacks or any one else, you are wrong.

    Cussing and swearing, and any other action (sin or not) must be evaluated in the light of its impact on those around the event. Does it bring people closer to loving the Living God or not? No amount of intellect can get around this. Its the simple truth.

    As for leaders, everybody believes in something, even if it is nothing. You don’t get to be president by being a ho hum person.

    I loved Ronny Raygun, slick as Billy tough like George, more believable than both. I don’t know what he believes in.

    Andrew

  • http://www.blogstudio.com/patricksweet Patrick Sweet

    This is ridiculous. You try and hide behind a fake modesty, but you tell the majority of the world’s population that they have no moral guiding light? Some of the most moral people I’ve known in my life have been atheist, Jewish and Buddist. Some of the most flagrant violations of the most basic moral codes have been commited by…CHRISTIANS.

    Segregation, abuse, genocide, all commited by Christians over the course of the last 2000 years.

    Now let’s talk about cursing. I’m a Christian, and a writer, and I use curse words. Why? Because a lot of my characters aren’t Christian per say. I don’t write for the Christian market, because the Christian market makes me feel like Jesus at the temple looking at the money changers. It pisses me off, and I want to flip tables and break the very things that people use to profit in the name of God.

    And these products are usually a poor emulation of things availible in the secular market.

    Curse words, Jeff, aren’t nearly as dangerous as people. People with an agenda. I don’t know what your agenda is. But I’m sure it’ll do more damage than the word FUCK.

    And by the way, when you deal with the underground music scene, you have to remember, you’re dealing with teenagers who are still grappling with the idea of who they are as a sentient, independent being. If you, at 19 knew who you were, and where you were going, fair play to you, sir. But most of us don’t have any clue.

    And if we rebel a little bit, than that’s good, because faith without questioning is a very feeble faith.

  • Andrew Campbell

    Pat:

    Are you really going to claim any religion innocent of horrible “crimes against humanity? There is not one race, one religion, one nation who’s hands are not bloody. Not one.

    Wicked people have always used God and religion to control and harm humanity. Why these people are not called the devil’s children and given proper credit is beyond me. People prefer to say, “It must be God!” and shake their fists at heaven and hate the true believer who wished nothing but the best for people.

    Andrew

  • Eric

    Mr. Fleming: Even if Jeff is wrong (and he is), I’m not sure your being an asshole is the best way to go about pointing it out; it’s not very becoming, and it does nothing to strengthen your argument.

  • http://www.blogstudio.com/patricksweet Patrick Sweet

    You’re right Andrew…I was pointing out the fact that every man has the ability to discern right from wrong, and Christians are just as likely to take the wrong path as anyone else.

  • Doctor Slack

    Eric: Actually, I’m quite enjoying Brian’s argument, and I think he brings plenty to the table in terms of wit and authenticity in buttressing it.

    Re: an earlier quote of Jeff’s: “the God that I have given my life to serving, is a God of love.” It would Really Really Nice if more evangelicals could learn that “love” is meaningless, and even poisonous, without a little thing called respect.

  • http://www.slumdance.com/blogs/brian_flemming/ Brian Flemming

    Andrew,

    You wrote:

      There is a world of difference between a racist and the christian belief of salvation.

      Racists are filled with hate. A real christian is a person full of love.

    I don’t see the logic here. A white racist can believe all of his life that he is superior to, say, black people, without ever expressing hatred for them. He can believe he is possessed of many fine qualities, including a certain destiny, without hating those who are not similarly blessed. The white racist can even feel a kind of patronizing, condescending, paternalistic love for the unfortunate black people.

    And you know what? That would look an awful lot like the “love” certain Christians have for those poor, unfortunate souls who are damned.

    Slack,

    Thanks for the support, Doctor.

    Amber,

    You said that you understood Jeff Petermann to be saying this:

      If you are not a Christian, then your standard for living is not the Bible, it’s something else.

    I have to say that, while I appreciate the effort to minimize the offensiveness of what Jeff said, I think you misunderstood him. He didn’t say non-Christians have “something else” as a moral compass, he said non-Christians have nothing as a moral compass.

    I can’t see how one can take any other interpretation away from this:

      If you are not saved, this post is not for you. You don’t have, in your heart, a guiding determiner between what is right and wrong.

    While I would like to think this wording was a mistake, and I would accept that it was if Jeff claimed it was, the fact is that Jeff hasn’t repudiated it. Five people commented on that statement after Jeff posted it, most of them taking issue with what it said.

    Now was Jeff’s first chance to correct it, to say something like, “Oh, sorry, I didn’t mean to say that. I understand that non-Christians have their own guiding determiners for what is right and wrong.” Jeff’s response?

      Again, you all have proved my point. Thanks.

    He’s had many more chances to correct the original statement. He has declined.

    In fact, he said, “Everything I said above I stand by.”

    He allowed that he may have expressed himself with “a little bit of anger.” He said that “in a way” he was sorry to have “offended” anyone (not quite the same as saying he didn’t mean exactly what he said).

    And he said, “…all I was trying to say was that people who are not beleivers, while they can do good things and make right choices, have no reason to do so…”

    I think it is kind of you, Amber, to try to minimize what Jeff said. But as far as I can tell, you’re wrong–he meant it.

  • Eric

    A little irony to start the morning off right: Did it ever occur to you, Mr. Fleming, that you are as militaristic, arrogant, narrow-minded, and bigoted as those whom you rail against? Actually, I find you quite fascinating in your apparently oblivious state of self-contradiction.

  • Jeff Petermann

    Well said Eric.

    Mr. Flemming,
    My foot is not in my mouth, I am entitled to my opinion, as are you. I am also entitled to think my opinion is right, as are you.

    It is amazing how you can expect open-mindedness, and yet not practice it.

  • http://www.indievisionmusic.com Brandon

    Jeff, you are hardcore 😉

    Grace is freely given….

  • http://www.slumdance.com/blogs/brian_flemming/ Brian Flemming

    Eric,

    Did it ever occur to you, Mr. Fleming, that you are as militaristic, arrogant, narrow-minded, and bigoted as those whom you rail against?

    Evidence*.

    Jeff,

    It is amazing how you can expect open-mindedness, and yet not practice it.

    Evidence*.

    *Evidence comes in many forms. Quotes are always good. There are also logical proofs, anecdotes, comparisons & contrasts, all kinds of stuff. Evidence helps to support accusations, so they don’t sit there, impotently, depending on themselves.

    For example, if you accuse someone of claiming you are “not entitled” to your opinion, a quote supporting this accusation would be helpful. Or, if you accuse someone of being “militaristic, arrogant, narrow-minded and bigoted,” an example of these characteristics being displayed by the accused would let the accused (and others) know how you arrived at those conclusions.

    Otherwise, it’s just hot air, and could even be a violation of Exodus 20:16.

  • Jeff Petermann

    You want an example?

    Example of hot air:
    you quoting Ex. 20:16

    If you don’t believe the Bible, don’t quote it.

  • http://www.xanga.com/markbrandt markbrandt

    I read about half way through and gave up….but here’s my comment on George W. being a Christian.

    I’m a Christian. I go to Church, go to a Christian school, and do my best to act Christ-like (though I fail constantly). So you know all that about me and you’d probably expect me to be a nice Conservative kid who believes everything Bush says is true and everything Clinton said was a lie. No…I question what both of them say. I’m a moderate as far as political spectrum. I believe in saving lives and showing love.

    If showing love means helping those in poverty with gov’t money, then so be it.

    Saving lives means no Death Penalty or Abortion.

    There are other examples too. I believe I’m going to heaven and sadly others are not, but that doesn’t mean that I look down on them and refuse to respect them.

    So this was off topic, but oh well.

  • http://solololo.blogspot.com Solo

    Oh my gawd! Religious half-wits… you’re exhausting. You try to give your personification of a lie clout and expect to be taken seriously? Idiots! Do not address Atheism until you twits can agree on which of you is right.

    And to the moron who posted:
    If you don’t believe the Bible, don’t quote it.

    It takes a ‘special’ person to believe the Bible. I don’t ride yellow buses with a hydrolic arm/lift full of slobbering, screaming, victims of your god’s “love”, but I’ll venture to quote your silly little book and shred you and anyone else that wants to go toe-to-toe with this fag and “school you” on how to wield the “power” of the Bible …or should I say “empowerment” of the Bible?

    Mark 11:12-21 (or just 11:12,13,14,20&21 if you have a low tolerance to filth and want to read what is only necessary) THEN read
    Matthew 21:18-21. Two accounts of the same story, where one of which, obviously, is just another example of Man’s tendency to exaggerate ‘the truth’, or a con perpetrated by a con artist: Jesus Christ.

    This tragic little collection of writings reads more like a gay guy’s black book than anything else. Jesus’ tricks, hehe.

    Those of you who speak more than one language, particularly those raised in bi-racial unions of naturally contradicting cultures, have an understanding of how translations may be able to convey messages, while losing the essences and textures associated in the sequencing of specific words to express varying degrees of intensity and ranges of emotion, not to mention unspoken-but-naturally-assumed-associations to the respective culture. How you disgusting Bible thumpers dare to preach to anyone, or even outside of your church, let alone on the world wide web is beyond me. You truly have lost your minds. You don’t even have the decency to learn the original language in which the Bible was scripted; not even as a sign of respect to your god. Pathetic.

    Here’s a little history lesson, boys & girls (Yes, girls my attend my class, even though they were intended to be property. Voiceless seed-vessels for breeding and light slave duties, they are no more, as god has change the text of his righteous book to embrace world change and Man’s progress, huh? Uh, no. Not quite. It appears very much to be true that manuscripts of the New Testament scriptures have been passed down from believing generation (of village idiots coming together to form a congregation) to believing generation (of inbred idiot villagers), thus copies wore out and had to be recopied. In the time from 600 CE (No longer BC and AD, but rather BCE for Before Common Era and CE for Common Era, by the way) and 800 CE this was a bit of a b!tc# to do by hand – remember, no printers 1,200 years ago. Then there were those near-sighted copyists who were hard of hearing and took dictation for manuscripts according to what they thought they heard, not what was signed (as in sign language) to them, not to mention those who felt the compulsion to correct what they thought was poor grammar on their own initiative. Clever little male secretaries… so smart! I wonder if they were molesting little boys back then too? Hmmm… Anyway, as a result, not all manuscripts of the “New Testament” were of the same value and it was some of those erroneous manuscripts that served as the “master” copy for others. Educate yourself. What would be my motivation to make this up? Carpal Tunnel Syndrome? Uh uh.

    Too speculative for you? Interesting… you can defy the Bible’s word and lie about it, create your own versions of it, interpret this evil rag as you will, but a more recent account of translation activity, and some of you would question it?

    Fine.

    Time for the real lessons… the ones you can wrap your little minds around:

    1 – god gave His very words to man in the form of scripture by direct inspiration. Timothy II 3:16 states clearly that god gave its word in the form of written scripture to mankind by inspiration. Peter II 1:20-21 says the holy casper moved holy men of god to speak many of the words that became scripture. The first purpose for the inspiration of the scriptures was they be “PROFITABLE for doctrine” Timothy II 3:17) so believers could discern truth from error.

    Too tough? Apply lesson one, here, to the Fig Tree Debacle (Your lesson above on empowerment, dummy. The one that you should already be quite familiar with, even before reading this post.)

    2 – god promised to preserve this word in pure, written form for all generations.

    The following verses attest to the nature and extent of god’s preservation of his word: Kings II 10:10; Psalms 12:6-7, Psalms 19:7, Psalms 33:11, Psalms 100:5, Psalms 119:89, Psalms 119:140, Psalms 119:152, Psalms 119:160; Proverbs 30:5, Isaiah 40:8, Isaiah 55:11; Matthew 5:18, Matthew 24:35; Luke 16:17; John 10:35; Peter 1:23, Peter 1:25.

    All these promises your god made and now look… ALL KINDS OF VERSIONS. That’s pretty smart. Yeah, your dumb @$$ could’ve avoided a lot of this had he just printed the stupid books himself in the first place, huh? I guess he really is responsible for the retarded. It’s THAT or he’s just plain *EVIL* and hateful. Why allow the rest of the world in its entirety to suffer eternal damnation for being victims of circumstance? A product of our childhoods, as many of us are? (This one is just for the Mormons: Do I get to go to ‘ghetto heaven’ or whatever lame @$$ thing you call it, or am I elligible for ‘lower-middle-class heaven’? OH! That’s right, I go to hell because after all, before I passed through the veil of forgetfulness, or the veil of never-never-remember on my way to the Neverland Ranch, I CHOSE MY PARENTS. So it is all my fault. I knew I should have chosen that terrified teen-ager who would’ve got me with that coathanger on her parents bathroom floor, shortly before she hemorrhaged to death. Shucks! I could have had a free ticket to Salt Lake Heaven, Diva=heaven-of-all-heavens-ever!) In any event, your god is sick and cruel and if I am to embrace your god once more, very, VERY briefly, let me say this to him/them/whatever:

    I LOATHE you and everything you’ve done to my people. Out of pure spite and disdain for you and your disgusting weaknesses and unforgiveable cryptic inabilities, with absolute certainty, I fully accept the maddening, incomparable torture and infinitely, intense torment of the eternal firey pits of hell rather than be tainted by your company furthermore. I don’t even care to know WHY anymore. you are an evil ABOMINATION. you are nothing.

    And no longer taking leave of my senses, I’ll have you know that you do, in fact, believe in nothing.

    The difference between the statement, above, and what some may view as my self-sentencing, above the aforementioned statement, is this:
    The statement is my truth. It allows me peace, which is a state of being forever ‘a little sad’ at the very best. I get fragments of happiness, but they are not real. As for the latter, it’s what ultimately led to the clear-thinking state of mind that has made it possible for me to come to terms with the broken spirit and soul of a young man in agony that escaped a horrific childhood and an adolescense of suffering that even animals shouldn’t have to endure, desperately (beyond belief, with so much FAITH) reaching out for god to save me. To save my soul. Then I realized the truth – THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS god, PEOPLE. god IS FOR SMALL-MINDED PEOPLE THAT KNOW NOTHING OF SUFFERING. IF YOU TRULY BELIEVED IN god THEN YOU WOULD DO THE RIGHT THING, NO MATTER THE CONSEQUENCE. DOING THE WRONG THINGS FOR THE RIGHT REASONS MAKE IT ALL WRONG; JUST AS, DOING THE RIGHT THING FOR THE WRONG REASON MAKES IT WRONG. Mankind’s mental abilities are impressive. We can justify anything… even murder. We can have a set of contradicting testaments that oppose scientific fact/evidence and that fly in the face of COMMANDMENTS printed in the very testaments themselves and still ‘humanity’ justifies its disobedience because its archaic nature no longer suits them.

    Women are property that are supposed to shut their gawd damn mouths and keep their opinions to themselves until their husbands either tell them what their opinion is, or until the husband beats their opinion out of them. That’s it, really. The Bible tells me so…

    Slavery is legal and god condones it. The Bible tells me so…

    god HATES shrimp, crab, lobster and all other shellfish and HATES people who eat it. The Bible tells me so…

    This piss poor, stupid, @$$backwards, primitive book of blasphemy tells me a lot of horse$#!t. Wake up folks! Don’t be afraid of death. You aren’t dishonoring your loved ones by embracing the truth. That they are just a memory for you to cherish until you die too. That is how it works. Or do you really think there’s a hampster cage full of your dead and buried rodents waiting for you in heaven? All of your Thanksgiving Turkeys longing to be reunited, as well?

    PLEASE! You’re hurting us. You’re hurting those of us that are exhausted of watching carry on like this… don’t you see the difference between “US”. Us, being those who embrace human evolution. If you’re reading this online, don’t you owe it to your fellow man… to me? to look up the ideas of others and out of respect embrace it, even if it is to dispute it? There is so much evidence that is SCREAMING to be noticed, but you select against it. Please. One of you. Be brave. I can take any of you down with my knowledge of the Bible. It’s atrocious, this book. This is like a crime scene, where everyone is claiming to be eye witnesses, but none of you saw the actually crime. Religion. Can you step outside of yourselves just long enough to conduct an investigation? Look at all of the evidence, ALL OF IT, and see if that leads you to more, deliberate and then render a verdict. If it turns out to be the same as the view you have now, then you are all that much more knowledgeable to cull more sheep to your herd. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

    Riddle me this: What lived MILLIONS of years ago, a mathematical impossibility according to the Bible, that has left evidence for us to find today? Huh?

    Stop living in ignorance, people. We’ve got a wealth of information at our fingertips. Educate yourselves.

    As a human being in pain… brothers, sisters… I’m far from perfect. Possibly the farthest from it, but I’ve tried religion. Various. I searched and searched for a god that doesn’t exist. If you won’t even consider it, perhaps you will consider what it’s like to be me and how I see the world:

    -All these conflicting religious groups each thinking themselves right.
    -No gods interacting with their children as they allegedly once did.
    -Behaviors resemble those of creatures in the animal kingdom.
    -Man plays god with cloned sheep and homosexual fruitflies.
    -The world is NOT flat, there is no Tooth Fairy, select groups are immune to the deadliest of viruses, a 40-year study on foxes by Belyaev produce startling results, hybridization (i.e. Ligers = Lions + Tigers. Look up Ligers and read up on their psyche/behavior and interview some bi-racial friends unaware of your experiment), ask youself how so many of you GOOD, GOOD, LOVING and caring people can have it all so wrong? Jews – Nah, he’s not the Messiah. Jehovah’s Witnesses – Mmmm, he’s the son of god, but not magical or anything… that’s dumb. Muslims – Y’all are wrong. *scoff* Buddism – I hope I come back as a cockroach in my next life, so I can be of the only species to survive these humans. Christians – I KNOW he’s there because I feel it in my soul. Amen! The Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints – We believe like you Christians, but George Lucas left us these other stories of the series… errr… I mean, but we’ve got god making us look absolutely ridiculous to the rest of the world – laughing stocks, in fact – because he’d rather drive away our kin, instead of allowing us global harmony with the golden plates that glow in the dark bestowing prophecy that a man who can take it upon himself to santion polygamy, having spent the earlier part of adulthood and a crystal gazer (that’s right, a fortune teller), he just contributed to the confusion. (My apologies to my Mormon family members being linked to this article, but you always were the $#!ttiest backwards little group of the family when you’ve each dealt with me, or crossed my path, even as a small, unknowing, little faggot. Thank you for contributing to the rise of an overly sensitive boy constantly getting devastated for being himself into the simple man I am today. Much love.)

    …and in closing I will call for the support of the viewers most confused by this post:
    DYSLEXICS OF THE WORLD!!! UNTIE!!!

  • http://www.docofdiets.com dietdoc

    Solo writes: DYSLEXICS OF THE WORLD!!! UNTIE!!!

    Reply: More to the point: manic-depressives of the world, unite!

    Cheers,

    Ron

  • http://solololo.blogspot.com Solo

    Why, thank you Dr. Albright!<img>

    I couldn’t be more flattered, as I thought my post read more muddled like an Alanis Morrisette song. I feel like I am on the right path with my personal hero – Nietzsche, after reading your response.

    I’ll be sure to avail myself of your services should the manic-depressives of the world and I decide to unite on a global scale and require instructions on how “village idiots com[e] together to form a congregation”. The more the merrier, right?
    <img>

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