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Scott Brown and the Tea Party Win Massachusetts

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In a startling turnaround from trailing by almost 30 points at the start of his campaign, Republican Scott Brown defeated Democrat Martha Coakley today to win the Massachusetts Senate seat held by the Kennedy family for over 50 years.

Brown ran a populist campaign, driving around the state in his pickup, taking minimal support from the GOP establishment, and relying on the Tea Party movement for small donations from individual contributors in an internet “Money Bomb” which added up to a big boost in the last week of the campaign. One effectve strategy was to play on the popular assumption that the Senate seat was Democrat property by stressing that he was running for “the peoples seat.”

The Coakley campaign received massive support from the Democratic party, including a flood of party money, footsoldiers from the SEIU and appearances from party luminaries like Bill Clinton, John Kerry and President Obama. Yet all of this couldn’t offset Coakley’s gaffes and apparent attitude of entitlement or the overwhelming public dissatisfaction with Democrat policies.

In addition to the small core of Republican voters in Massachusetts, Brown drew two-thirds of the independent votes and even 22% of the Democrats. Voters were most concerned about the nation’s growing debt and the relentless efforts of Democrats to pass a health care plan which most Americans disapprove of.

Brown’s win shows that the Tea Party movement has a real constituency. They are independent voters who have had enough of politicians not listening to them and voted for Brown to be their voice in Washington. Stopping the healt hcare bill and restoring fiscal responsibility is a lot to expect from a single mortal, but with hundreds of congressional seats up for election in less than a year and the grassroots energized by this victory, Scott Brown won’t be alone for long.

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About Dave Nalle

  • cannonshop

    A Democrat gave a concession speech…

    Amazing. I expected recounts or lawsuits instead. (or some combination of the two, it’a been the standard modus operandi since 2000, after all…)

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Try fixing your lead, Dave. Kennedy was chosen in 1962 – 48 years ago – or LESS than fifty years ago. He was elected in a special election in 1962 and served his first full term from January 1965 onwards. He would have been due for re-election/retirement in Nov. 2012.

    Humph!! I thought only lib’ruls couldn’t do math!

  • republicanblack

    Good victory for Brown but will he make good on his promises to the tea party? The objectives the tea party is trying to achieve — they are all going about it in the most ineffective way, I know this sounds crazy like I thought it did until I saw this article on exactly who the tea party is serving.

  • Arch Conservative

    Mary Jo has had her revenge!

  • Arch Conservative

    Brown won Hyannisport?

    Scott Brown wasn’t driving a pickup truck last night. He was driving a bulldozer and he drove it right through a little place called Camelot. When he was done he parked it right in the middle of that place, got out of the bull dozer, began walking away with his back to the dozer, pulled a detonation device out of his pocket and blew the whole damn place to hell!

    Next target…..Barney Frank!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Let me remind readers here in this thread also, that there are more important things in this world besides saved tax dollars for Massachusetts voters; we have just heard that a 6.1 aftershock hit Haiti less than an hour ago.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Ruvy – That was John’s seat before it was Teddy’s. John got it in ’53. Vacated in ’60, probably because John got elected Pres and then some guy named Smith had it for a couple of years. They’re probably related somehow too. I remember a murder deal a few years back with some guy named Smith that was a Kennedy somehow or other. Who knows. Hyannisport is probably as bad as West-by-god Virginia when it somes to inbreeding!
    Besides, the real deal is the fact that it’s in Mass, a liberal strong hold, not just blue, but flourescent blue by most accounts and a republican won it. There was even a guy named Kennedy on the ballot!
    And I bet you liberals still won’t get it…we don’t want your entitlement bullshit! Get a fucking job and fend for yourselves!

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Republicanblack, I’m afraid your source is desperately ill-informed. The RLC which is part of the Tea Party alliance is running hundreds of candidates for local office and also running candidates against big-government Republican incumbents in almost every state.

    Dave

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    I fixed it for you.

    wow, I’m scared… not!

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Jeannie, there’s nothing to be scared of. You CAN learn to be responsible for yourself and not depend on the nanny state.

    Dave

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Warren Buffett, one of the wealthiest men in the world, declared publicly that he ought to pay more in taxes…but doesn’t to this day!

    And then, we have the foolish little guy, who will continue to pay taxes at every turn and is being snow-jobed into believing the “Tea Party” will save him..WRONG!

    But really, what is this obsession with not wanting to pay taxes? I say, STFU and, help your entire country prosper!

    And Dave, deep down there in the bowels of the movement, I still sense those three letters. Prove me wrong! PLEASE!!!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    I am not your nanny.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Later Dave,

    There are more important stories to focus on today.

    Did you hear? There was a 6.1 Aftershock this morning in Haiti and Southern California is in the midst of , mudslides, tornadoes and God only knows what else.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Already made my comments about this “victory” last night on your other thread. Dave, have a great day.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Andy, #7,

    The dictionary points to the meaning of the word narrow-minded, and it is synonyms with the word illiberal.

    see below

    Part of Speech: adjective
    Definition: biased, intolerant
    Synonyms:
    bigoted, conservative, conventional, hidebound, illiberal, insular, narrow, opinionated, parochial, petty, prejudiced, provincial, reactionary, short-sighted, small-minded, strait-laced, unenlarged

    But then, look at the antonyms of this word.

    Antonyms:
    broad-minded, liberal, tolerant, unbiased

    I love being called a liberal! Thanks :)

  • STM

    Andy: “That was John’s seat before it was Teddy’s. John got it in ’53.”

    It’s been a democrat seat since 1946, right?

    And the democrats lost it during the first term of a democrat president in the most democrat friendly state in the US?

    Fairly significant victory, then …
    plus it cuts the democrats’ all-important numbers in the senate.

    The president won’t be a happy chappie tonight, will he?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I for one am done tolerating people who say things like this: And I bet you liberals still won’t get it…we don’t want your entitlement bullshit! Get a fucking job and fend for yourselves!

    Take your game and go fend for your own self, preferably somewhere away from those of us who would like to act like human beings. You are an unfortunate outcome of years of inhumane thinking. I, for one, am done pretending that this is a political viewpoint rather than a human mental illness.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    The irony is that Scott Brown won Ted Kennedy’s own voting precinct. Or is it? I know Roger’s disappointed in my glee. And while those on the right look at this as a validation of the Tea Party movement — it isn’t. Scott Brown has a year to make his case before he runs for reelection. He’s NOT, I repeat, he’s NOT this far right whacko who believes FOX is the only news source and Pat Robertson is the modern day John the Baptist. While the pundits outside Massachusetts will spin this every way they can they’re missing the core to the voters’ message last night — we’re sick and tired of politics as usual — Mr. Obama and the Democrat majority have 6 months to change course and do something or November will make last night look typical. Brown gets it. Anyone who saw him speak last night got the message by his failure to even say the word “Republican”. Brown’s largest mistake was allowing the presence of Mitt Romney and that’s not just me. That’s about 35% of the crowd at the Park Plaza last night. Today’s a new day. Brown owes no GOP luminary a thing. This was his campaign. His win. His chance. Go back to Salt Lake, Mitt. We don’t want you here.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    JD – You’re quite welcome.

    I can point to a lot of words that the dictionary doesn’t describe the way I or a lot of people I know describe them. Liberal would be one of them.

    The problem with a liberals definition of the word liberal is that you all think it means you’re supposed to be liberal with everybody elses stuff. You and your liberal friends can be as liberal as you want with your own money and possessions, how ’bout you leave your hands out of my pockets? You think the govt is the be all and end all to all your worries. You say stupid shit like, “Obamas my pres now, I don’t have to worry about my mortgage payment or putting gas in my tank anymore!!!” I heard it from a woman in Norfolk, VA the day after the election!

    You want free health care? Work for the govt! Do twenty in the military. Otherwise, put your hand in your own damned pocket and pay for it yourself!

    And saying I don’t want your entitlement bullshit is narrow minded? Maybe you should STFU…you said it first, don’t get all pissy about it.

    What does what one of the wealthiest people in the world does with his money have to do with what the average person does with theirs? Does Mr. Buffett live payday to payday? Or do you suppose he could wipe his ass with hundred dollar bills and not miss them? I hear it from all the rich liberals that everybody needs to give more. I heard Madonna gave $250,000 to Haiti relief. As a percentage to hers and my annual income, my $10 donation was just as big, maybe bigger.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    May the death of the ideologies of right-wing Libertarians, authoritarians, and neoliberals be speedy. Freedom does not include being entitled to force others to live according to inhuman standards. Healthy humans require solidarity and love and community.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    The seat Brown won was occupied by Henry Cabot Lodge in the early 50’s previous to JFK. As Brown said this is “the people’s seat” — it belongs to no party, no ideology, no political dynasty. Women are not going to lose the right to choose. The elderly aren’t going to lose Medicare. Gays will still have the right to marry.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Comment #17 You’re done tolerating me? As if you ever did. As if you tolerate anybody that doesn’t think the way you do. Typical liberal…

    I’m not saying there’s not a place for medicare and medicaid. Some people can’t take care of themselves. Some people end up on the wrong end of corporate greed and need a hand now and then.

    But again, you liberals…hehe, I love using that term because it pisses you off so much…you liberals think that Darwins’ Theory is the answer to everything, well, Darwin believed in survival of the fittest and as long as you keep helping the ones that should be gone due to natural selection, the world will never be a better place!!!

    Have a nice day….

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Andy,

    Aren’t you a veteran? I thought you had VA Health Care also..I earned my Health Care defending these little punks from the bag party and every one of these clowns crying right now are going to want Medicare Part B someday..isn’t it funny how many hippocrates drink TEA?

    Add the punctuation if you can’t decipher it!

  • http://blogcritics.org/writers/christine-lakatos/ Christine

    Did you hear what Howard Dean said last night when he was interview by Maddow? He “blamed Bush” for Coakley’s loss. Wow!

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Barack Obama has a great opportunity on this anniversary of his inauguration. The vote in the Bay State yesterday is not a repudiation of him rather it’s a complete rejection of business as usual in the Legislative branch. This is a day when the President has to make a decision between trying to please members of his own party or being his own man.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    I’m not pissed at being called a LIBERAL.. I’m proud.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Im a twenty year veteran…I earned everything I get…I was seriously underpaid for twenty years…I left family at home while sailing to lovely places like the Persian Gulf and the Red Sea. I always thought of it as investing in a 401k that is now paying me back.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Silas,

    You sure swallowed those lies hook, line , and sinker!

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    Silas, the Tea Party really isn’t about conservative social values. Brown kind of fits right in. The Tea Party is largely focused on just a couple of issues and they’re not incompatible with being a moderate Republican. They want to cut spending and get government off our backs, starting with this health care insanity. After that they’re a pretty diverse group.

    Dave

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Oh, so it’s OK for Andy to accept free Health Care, but Jeannie is made out to be some sort of leach!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    The Tea Party wants to be an all white country…prove otherwise!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Not attacking you, just disgusted by this energy being diverted from those that really need US!!!

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    It asn’t free. It cost me twenty years.. [Gratuitous vulgarity deleted by Comments Editor]

    Less than 7 hours for the race card to come out…nice!

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    You don’t get it unless you devote a life to the military. You don’t get it. Maybe I could let you talk to my family. My youngest, now twenty can tell you which birthdays I was overseas for and which ones I was home for while she was growing up. They can tell you which Christmases I wasn’t home for, which Thanksgivings I missed too. But hey, I was paid so fucking much money!!!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    I am just as much a VETERAN as YOU!

    Don’t pull that lifer shit with me! I lost a good part of my life in Germany.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    So nice to see such fraternal love between veterans of the US Armed Forces….

    The élites who rob you both blind are laughing all the way to the bank while you call each other names. Boy, do they have YOUR numbers….

    Suckers!

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Germany is a vacation compared to Bahrain or Djibouti…and as a lifer once told me..I’m not a lifer, I’m a career man, lifers kiss ass!
    How many Oktoberfests and Constater Vassens did you make it to while you were roughing it in Germany?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Well said Ruv…I ill not engage with this loose screw any longer.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Andy, [Gratuitous vulgarity deleted by Comments Editor] You want a fucking medal? YOU made your choices. You think you’re some kind of fucking hero? You missed christmas & birthdays? It was your choice bucko. What, are we supposed to shed crocodile tears for you?

    Military intelligence is truly an oxymoron. Some of the dumbest ass wipes in the country are military lifers. Can’t make it in the real world? Re-up.

    You are the epitome of the narrow minded, mean spirited conservative. It’s all about money and stuff. The only measure you value is money and stuff. He who dies with the most toys wins! Kiss off!

    B

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    22 – Andy,

    You’re done tolerating me? As if you ever did. As if you tolerate anybody that doesn’t think the way you do. Typical liberal…

    I guess in a sense you are right. Though not about my being a liberal. But, anyway, now there is a new recognition. I am done considering right-wing positions, in any way that I did, as mere points of view. As in, we are each entitled to our own or we can agree to disagree, etc.

    Right-wingers are a threat to the survival of the human species (and every other species). The ideologies I mentioned are not just opinions, they are the result of human sickness, and they are the cause of human suffering. These POVs lead to destruction, violence, and inhumanity. They can be pitied or despised or met with grief, rage, or sympathy. But they are not to be taken seriously, as valid ways of thinking, as if anyone who hadn’t slipped so far down couldn’t actually sense that, even though they might not verbalize it. I think healthy people should consider these ideologies flat out what they are a symptom of mental illness.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    36 Ruvy – Ain’t that the truth!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Baritone, YES. That’s all I can say to you..good comment

    Cindy, I can only copy, cut and paste your comment. Well said..

    Right-wingers are a threat to the survival of the human species (and every other species). The ideologies I mentioned are not just opinions, they are the result of human sickness, and they are the cause of human suffering. These POVs lead to destruction, violence, and inhumanity. They can be pitied or despised or met with grief, rage, or sympathy. But they are not to be taken seriously, as valid ways of thinking, as if anyone who hadn’t slipped so far down couldn’t actually sense that, even though they might not verbalize it. I think healthy people should consider these ideologies flat out what they are a symptom of mental illness.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Never asked for a medal, you’re absolutely right, I made my own choices and I’d do it again.

    And I did it for a few reasons, two of them being a house payment for the rest of my life and free health care for my family and I. That’s all I’m saying.

    Now you want me to give up what I’ve earned since I retired from the military and worked in the “real world” for the last 14 years so you can get those same benefits for free?

    I enjoy watching all those people that can’t hack it in the real world saving folks in places like Haiti. You assholes who’ve never left the confines of your cozy little worlds don’t know anything about the real world.

    Cindy, is your real name Jeaneane Garafolo? YOU sure sound like her…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    No. It is a statement on the Obama presidency. I, too, might have voted for an opposing candidate as a symbolic gesture. The White House tried to do too much in too little time. As a result, not only whatever was passed was half-ass, watered-down bullshit. The most important issue on the table – doing something about unemployment and inspiring confidence – was grossly neglected. In contrast to the bailouts of the corporate villains, this was unforgivable.

    Even the “enlightened” people of Massachusetts subscribe to the simple dictum: It’s the economy, stupid. And when shit hits the fan, they’re no different than most people.

    You can only think of others and of the public good when your own future is economically secure. Alternatively, only when economic security is overshadowed by other values.

    Apparently, the people of the Bay State haven’t reached the level of enlightenment in the latter sense. Very few people ever do. Consequently, there is this harsh reality to deal with, and the White House apparently overestimated the nobility of the American people. It’s been out of touch.

    Whatever the roots of the tea party movement, Fox News instigated or not, it was by and large a response to Obama’s indolent administration. They brought it unto themselves.

  • Doug Hunter

    “I, for one, am done pretending that this is a political viewpoint rather than a human mental illness.” – Cindy

    “The Tea Party wants to be an all white country…prove otherwise!” – Jeannie

    Speaking of mental illnesses, one democratic loss and the entire left wing of this site is thrown immediately into tard mode.

    Cindy, I don’t think you’re mentally ill, hateful and bitter perhaps, but in your thought is the seed that started the greatest genocides in history all carried out by left wing dictators.

    Jeannie, perhaps you should prove your claim first. I’ve seen some video of tea party members and never once heard or saw the view you ascribed being professed. I suspect you’re just spreading hateful propaganda but you’re always welcome to try and prove your moronic claim.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    The really sad thing about this article is that it could have been written during the nadir of almost every administration, at least since Nixon – just by changing the particular issues at hand.

    Obama has thus far failed to produce much of anything. His agenda has proven to be at loggerheads against pretty much the entire beltway establishment. What’s worse IMO is that the Democrats have absolutely failed to support its president. Congressional Democrats have proven they have absolutely no spine. The Blue Dogs have proven to be nothing more than Republicans in blue pinstriped suits.

    The Republicans will almost certainly severely narrow the gap in the House if not actually take control come November. As noted, the Senate may be another matter, but, nevertheless, Senate Dems will likely lose further ground this fall.

    If Obama doesn’t find some way to right his administration’s ship – mainly by getting the economy on some definitive and demonstrative road to improvement, he will be one term toast.

    Then, it is likely that the Reps will once again have another opportunity to fuck things up in their own inimitable fashion.

    In a way, I must admit that there was a certain comfort to be taken in being aligned with the party out of power. It’s a lot more fun jabbing at and lambasting those in power.

    I have bad knees, and I can attest to the fact that it is far easier to walk up a hill than it is to walk down. One is far more likely to stumble in the descent than in the climb. Obama and the Dems have been stumbling for almost exactly one year. It hasn’t been pretty.

    If the past several years have taught us anything, it’s that neither party has a clue. They are all self-serving and absolutely tone deaf. Cynicism, thy name is politics.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Cindy,

    I will try to take your advice…

    God, if the tables where turned and these people where buried in the earth half alive and mostly dead they would be more alive than they are today..While Haitians die these fools go shopping or attend political rallies, you go tea

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #44 is a response to #25.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Andy fell for some romantic notion that the state wanted him to believe. Just like young people are doing all the time. Army Experience Centers now lure children in and romanticize killing and violence by having them play murderous video games.

    You are not a hero, you are a victim of the system you have learned to support. So misguided. And now you are angry. Not at the system–you think that is normal. No, you want to make sure every other little guy is punished as much as you were. So, instead of rebelling against the real source of your harm, the elite power structure–which has developed perfect stories to convince you and perfect ways to use you–you buy into their myths that it’s the other little guys who are the source of your troubles. Like a magicians sleight of hand–look over there, blame the crack mom, while all the Generals are busy buying up their own personal skyscrapers.

    Do you really think the poor are so powerful? Who is really using up your money and why?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Another observation of the right-wing

    God, if the tables where turned and these people where buried in the earth half alive and mostly dead they would be more alive than they are now!

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    OK, boys and girls, let’s stop the sniping. Anyone who has served this country in the military had earned every damn benefit they get, period. I don’t care if it is on the battlefield in Iraq or in some desk job in Germany. The bottom line is that a veteran is a veteran.

    I’m totally beginning to understand where Cindy and Roger are coming from. I used to think that the far right fringe were the enemy — I AM WRONG. Our enemy is polarization and the perpetuation thereof. I get kicked to the ground because I support Brown because the left thinks it’s impossible to support the Brown cause and be Progressive. I get kicked to the ground by the far right because I believe under the law marriage is nothing more than a legal and binding contract between two people. The Right thinks it’s impossible to be Progressive and Christian. All you fringes can go ye forth and multiply.

    1. We have problems in this country that weren’t caused by one party or ideology. Deal with it.

    2. The free market system in its present form is a complete and utter failure. Government needs to lay down the ground rules, set forth the regulations and get out of the way.

    3. We need health care for every American, period. And that is accomplished by a not for profit health system whereby health insurance is regulated by antitrust laws. That makes sense — something which is completely foreign to us in America.

    4. We need to start empowering families to be families again. And yes that means it does take a village. It took a village in the old days, it takes a bigger village now. It’s not Progressive thinking, folks, it’s at the very heart of the whole “family values” shtick but the far right doesn’t want you to know it.

    5. We must have education reform where personal accountability and civic duty are the cornerstones of the system. Teachers who do their jobs should get paid — well. And teachers who don’t should be stripped of their union protections and sent to Burger King for a counter job.

    6. Like it or not there has to be a redistribution of wealth in the United States. Right now the little guy’s wealth is being distributed to the fat cats on Wall Street and to the health insurance industry. And that wealth is spent in advertising messages to us telling us what we should or should not do. It’s time to break apart the super banks and get back to community banking where local bankers and consumers make the decisions for their local markets. And if that means dissolving the Fed in favor of local currencies or (gasp) going to a global currency so be it. The dollar is dying, so instead of spending trillions trying to revive it, let’s just kill it. Somebody call Dr. Kevorkian.

    7. It’s time to become a part of the global community. We need to realize that the old ways of doing business around the globe are ineffective. We’ve sold our souls to countries who provide us substandard products made in unsafe factories by people who earn shit wages. Our own addiction to consumerism got us into this mess. There’s more to living than worrying how many video games are on the shelf or how many pairs of shoes we own in the closet. We need to start talking to our own contemporaries around the globe and start coming up with answers which benefit the family of Man not the American elite.

    I don’t support everything Scott Brown stands for. But you know what? If Martha Coakley won yesterday, there wouldn’t be the debate which rages this morning in Washington. American Imperialism is dead, folks. Massachusetts voters didn’t send Brown to the Senate because they’re becoming Conservative. We’re sending him there to say – enough! Both sides of the aisle had best get together and hammer out some solutions real fast — this is a revolution against incumbents — Black/White, Democrat/Republican; Progressive/Conservative; Olbermann/Limbaugh.

    We need to get our asses out of political situations where we are just not going to accomplish a thing. If we facilitate a way to wean off the Arab petroleum tit, we’re going to be in better shape. If we stop depending on the Chinese to bail us out of every mess we created for ourselves, we’ll save ourselves from becoming the United States of Beijing. And we need to understand how our own elected officials sold us all down the river for that proverbial 30 pieces of silver that they received from the real enemy – K Street. Deal with reality. Sweep the slate clean. Let’s start again. Otherwise, we’re dead.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I’m not angry! I’m laughing my ass off while reading yours and others comments!

    Twenty years in the navy and I never personally killed anything. What a ripoff! I did get to play with a lot of guns and torpedoes and ASROC’s and really cool shit like that!

    Again, never said I was a hero, never said I wanted a medal, I have plenty in my shadow box…I never threw them away, they’re still mine, even the ones I got when Carter and Clinton were president.

    I do blame the crack WHORE mom and the man that got her pregnant…you know, just say no. Not only that, but they pretty much give birth control away these days, so there’s no fucking excuse.

    And as it stands right now, I pretty much get my tax dollars back in the form of a military retirement check, so MY tax dollars aren’t really being used for anything other than paying me and paying for my family’s health insurance…hell, a few of those dollars might even be YOUR tax dollars, so for that I say thank you. But when those assholes in DC raise everybody’s taxes, then some of my money may go places I don’t want it to, so I’m just trying to nip that shit in the bud so to speak!!!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Baritone #46 Yes, you could just plug the name George W. into your comment. It would be absolutely true then.

    Doug #45 I’ll look for that link I found while commenting in the good Senator’s thread.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Andy’s attitude is perfectly understandable. I’ve paid my union dues, so why doesn’t everybody.

    Unfortunately, this kind of attitude represents the core belief of great many Americans and is the cornerstone of their political philosophy.

    The problem is – it assumes too goddamn much: absence of discrimination, level playing field, equality of opportunity, identical abilities, ideal economic conditions whereby everyone can get a job. Shall I go on?

    In the end, it merely serves to write off all others as either stupid, not industrious enough, or just plain lazy. In the end, it’s a kind of white trash mentality – no reflection on you, Andy, I’m speaking in general – which enables a person to maintain a level of self-esteem at the expense of all those who are even worse off.

  • STM

    Baritone: “One is far more likely to stumble in the descent than in the climb”.

    I’m lovin’ this. America at its best …

    B/tone: Gotta go sideways mate … one foot after the other!

    Go Silas. There’s always common ground. Don’t let ‘em tell you otherwise.

    Modern democracy means being able to choose. That’s what the whole bloody thing’s about.

    And it doesn’t work unless there’s more than one participant.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    roger – I’ve called myself whiskey tango plenty of times…doesn’t bother me a bit. It’s a badge, a medal if you will!!!

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Speaking of unions, Roger, remember my story yesterday about the Union member getting pissed after he researched the FEC himself? He called me this morning. His union local leadership told him there’s going to be a cutback on work. He’s only going to have three days’ work for the foreseeable future beginning today. I guess this is the Union’s way of punishing the membership for the Coakley loss — the Union is already blaming the Republicans for the lack of work.

    Unless Barack Obama stands up next week and gives a passionate State of the Union speech complete with wholesale Administration staff firings he might as well resign. This man came into office with such promise one year ago. I wonder how much worse it would have been if this were the McCain Administration?

    Prepare ye the way of globalization and the end of American Imperialism.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Silas, I would like to clarify my job in the service, I worked on F4E’s and many days I was under a running jet on the tar-mac…desk?

    But, this is ancient history..:)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “It’s time to become a part of the global community.”

    You’re speaking from both sides of your mouth, Silas. How does the election of Scott Brown catapult us in that direction? In what sense is a Tea Party movement a movement towards that end. It’s precisely the opposite of that, a movement of reaction, of reclaiming our “glorious” past when America was believed to be independent and self-sufficient. It’s a return to parochial, not global kind of thinking.

    Talk to you later, friend. I’ve got to go.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I didn’t get to Germany until after I retired…cool place, nice people…ever been to Ulm Jeannie?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Thanks for understanding, Andy, that I wasn’t addressing you – only the underlying idea.

    Later.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Roger, #54,

    Comparative psychology at it’s worst…Keeping up with the Joneses is exactly what we are right now.

    Consumerism rules, doesn’t it!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    How embarrassing the inter-net is…but I’ll put all of my warts out there if I can make one little speck of a difference.
    And Andy, I don’t remember many good times there..

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Ulm is beautiful.

    B

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    No longer, Jeannie. Thirty years ago, perhaps.

    The people really are concerned about their jobs and the faltering economic conditions. For many of them, it is a matter of survival. Which is to say, we have regressed to a kind of Social Darwinism, law of the jungle if you will. And it’s precisely because of that that the feelings are much more acute.

    In times of general prosperity, we could afford to be more generous towards “the lesser ones.” Not when we ourselves are hard hit. And that’s why all the ugliness comes out – precisely when the times are the worst.

    Later. Gotta go.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Here’s the truth, Silas. I’m not sniping. Those were some of my most lucid comments. They are the culmination of a couple years of careful thinking.

    I am a pacifist. I do not believe in ‘serving one’s country’ I am an anarchist. I do not believe in ‘one’s country’. I support veterans in the sense that they were used and I see them as victims. I am in solidarity with them when they oppose the military. And I encourage them to come to a realistic understanding about the military-industrial complex. I don’t support making them feel better by patting them on the head and telling them they are good little heroes or supporting any other myths they were told about serving their country or fighting for ‘my’ rights.

    When someone picks up a weapon to use against another human being, they cannot be supporting anything I believe in. I saw a comedian the other night doing a ‘why I am an ex-Catholic’ routine. He said, “Though shalt not kill? Oh come on, that’s not what that means!” That sort of sums it up.

    I agree with this: We have problems in this country that weren’t caused by one party or ideology. Secondly, I wholeheartedly agree with your sense that: Our enemy is polarization and the perpetuation thereof. But, I do not see the answer as the embracing of either party ideology. I do think people need to come together, but in recognition that the answer lies outside this conceptual construction which serves the power elite and not us. I support the breaking away from top-down rule and the move toward power that is mutually held–horizontal power.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Jeannie, I wasn’t referring to you specifically when I said “desk” so don’t take it to heart. I was trying to make a point. My father had two sisters who served in WW II. They didn’t work in an office. They were both in theaters of war. After they came home, they went back to their lives, raised their families and became good little Stepford wives. They never complained. Never used their service to this nation to their advantage. They did it because it was their civic duty as good Americans. That was then, this is now. There are better ways than the ways of yesterday and the process begins by the cessation of believing the bullshit that is fed to us by the government, main stream media and the Madison Avenue.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Neither party ideology, Cindy, is capable of solving the kind of problems facing us. They’re still product of nineteenth century thinking. But of course you know that.

    Goto go. Later.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    And, Cindy, I am beginning to see your light with more clarity than I ever have. Ironically, I saw it last night in that crowded room among the diverse crowd which watched Brown speak. They weren’t there because of some ideology. They were there because they are pissed off and frustrated because they just don’t know what to do. They’re all banking on Scott to save them like they banked on Barack to save them a year ago today. Our leaders can’t save us, Cindy. We can only save ourselves.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Therefore, I stand by what I said. Treating people according to the ideology valued by the right is counter-human. Also, I often have quite a lot of problem with the imposing authoritarianism of what is considered ‘the left’. Though I understand why ‘the left’ wants to wrestle power from the right, I don’t think it’s any better for them to rule.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Cross-posted.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Made a lot of friends in Ulm. They actually told me that I had changed their opinion of Americans…for the better! Can you believe it? An asshole like some of you think I am and people in Germany thought I was a good guy! Wonder what they would’ve thought of some of you?

    Climbed the Munster twice and got a tour of the Gold Oxsen brewery while I was there a few years ago. Even went to Oktoberfest! Drove to Amsterdam twice too…love the “Coffee Shops”!!!!!!!!!!!!hehe

    I was still working for the “military industrial complex” at the time, learning a radar system for the CG.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    What about a global political party? At this stage maybe our last best hope is the arrival of a Messiah. Maybe I should just convert to Judaism, accept the Talmud and live on a kibbutz on the West Bank. At least there it would be a quality life filled with meaning and intrigue as opposed to this consumerist, masturbatory society. Hey Ruvy, got a spare cot in a shed?

  • Baronius

    Expect at least a dozen House blue dogs to switch parties in the next 6 months. Everyone’s going to be hedging their bets against a stunning GOP victory in November.

    Not that the Republicans are necessarily going to sweep the elections. A lot will depend on foreign policy and the economy. But still. When your team loses once, you played a bad game. The second loss maybe turned on a bad call. With Corzine, Deeds, and Coakley all looking for work, and the only recent Democratic victory in NY-23 over Doug Hoffman and a Republican who quit the race the week before the election, you’re looking at a bad season.

  • Doug Hunter

    #54 So you’re in the name calling business too, you even have the luxury of using racial terms like ‘white trash’, don’t you feel empowered. It’s apparent that everyone likes to make themselves feel better by putting others down, that’s why your side tries so hard to paint themselves as morally superior. (hence Jeannie mentioning how much she cares about Haiti repeatedly on an unrelated thread)

    As to the comment, your side overplays the value of those outside influences and downplays individual ability and initiative, part of a trend of away from the individual and towards the collective. The problem is, not everyone wants to be a slave to the system, a cog in your collective machine. Unfortunately, you are entirely willing to force that on those who would have no part of it, or declare them mentally ill, or simply throw them in the Gulag and watch them die. That’s the difference between us, my freedom does not compel you to do anything, your collective seeks to own me. I will not be a slave.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Comment #26 – I’m not pissed at being called a LIBERAL.. I’m proud.

    Maybe so, but just about every time I use the word you “progressives” get all defensive. Three comments to explain the word the way you think it needs to be defined…I’m just saying…doesn’t change what I think it means, but if it makes you feel better.

  • Mark

    nice work Cindy

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Silas, You wrote
    My father had two sisters who served in WW II. After they came home, they went back to their lives, raised their families and became good little Stepford wives. They never complained.

    I wish they had complained.

    You got taken there up in MASS. but it’s not too late…written by a woman

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Mark, #77,

    Why are you trying to pin our comments today on Cindy?

    I started this crap and I am very sorry that Cindy and Roger got pulled into it..this is way to stressful.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Maybe I should just convert to Judaism, accept the Talmud and live on a kibbutz on the West Bank. At least there it would be a quality life filled with meaning and intrigue as opposed to this consumerist, masturbatory society.

    Ha!

    Silas, don’t buy trouble you can’t handle. You understand my message, and that is the important point.

    The folks around here couldn’t handle you. You are too real, and demand real things, like real faith, real honesty, and real solutions. And lots of folks would not like your independence of thought. The very things I admire in you would buy you more enemies here than you could shake a stick at.

    And we haven’t even gotten to your sexual orientation yet! Here it’s “don’t ask, don’t tell”. The leftist pricks in Tel Aviv will fawn all over you – until you demand honesty from them. Then they will turn away from you and treat you like they would treat Ezekiel or Jeremiah.

    This is not paradise, Silas, and you see deceit at the hands of the secular G-d-hating Jews as well as the “religious”; you see hatred of Jew for Jew, stupidity and dishonesty, and worst of all, self-deception and self-hatred. It would sicken you once you understood it all, and you would run back to Massachusetts where you roots truly are.

    The reason I don’t run back to Minnesota, is that my roots are not and never were there – nor were they in Brooklyn, even though I am a Brooklyn boy. My heart is here, and I’ve sacrificed enough – paid my dues – to make this very very imperfect place work – and to hope in messianic Redemption as a reward. I am a Child of Israel and the Land of Israel is my home.

    You’re a great guy – but you are not a Child of Israel – and it is too late in your life to try to mold yourself to be one.

    Oh – and one other thing. There are no kibbutzim in Judea or in Samaria. But you would find one in the south of the country, and they make something very real and something profitable – dairy products. Go look up Yotvata on the net.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Jeannie, if you start to back away from the emotional side of things you may come to realize that even in the worst situation you perceive there IS opportunity. We can’t change that which was. But we can change that which is now and hope for the best for tomorrow. We didn’t get taken in Massachusetts. The people that braved the elements and took the time to vote did so because they are the quintessential patriots. Over 2 million people cast their ballots and to every voter who took the time I say thank you regardless of who they voted for. There are some communities where the turnout was 75% — that’s democracy in action as opposed to civil inaction.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    75% in an off year election and winter weather conditions…I thought Americans didn’t give a shit anymore?
    One of those things that make you go hmmm…

  • Baronius

    Jeannie – I hope you don’t take this as a criticism just because it comes from me. I don’t mean to step on anyone’s toes. The convention around here (and on many sites) is to use italics for quoting others, non-italics for your own voice. You can see it on comments #76 and #80. Do what you want with that info.

  • Mark

    yes Jeannie #79, but Cindy’s comments make sense to me as the most radical here…and I doubt that she regrets the opportunity to further clarify her position

    I do think people need to come together, but in recognition that the answer lies outside this conceptual construction which serves the power elite and not us. I support the breaking away from top-down rule and the move toward power that is mutually held–horizontal power.

    is particularly well stated

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Mark, #84,

    OMG, I thought you were scolding her! OPPS!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    I am un-conventional Baronius, but I’ll try.

    nice work Cindy

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    I’m sure this has run it’s course..and don’t freak out when I say that I am going to go have a cup of Tea!

    Because I mean this literally, I’m thirsty :)

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Hiya Mark,

    Thanks you. :-)

    (Hope things are okay with you. I hadn’t realized you were still on the east coast.)

    Jeannie,

    If I were ever in trouble, I’d like you there to look after me. :-) But, I am pretty certain, I would be safe with Mark. Besides, you opened a good door. I find it hard to write without a prompt. I was very happy getting a chance to write exactly what I wrote. Not stressful for me at all. Thank you.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Aren’t American elections and their aftermath pretty?

    Jeannie’s cup of tea is fo course the perfect solution, which is probably why you Americans get so het up about everything. You really shouldn’t have thrown all that perfectly good leaf into Boston Harbor, you know.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Cindy may well be the most completely thoughtful of all of us. She does not make her statements rashly.

    I have written here and elsewhere that nationalism is as much a scourge on mankind as racism and other forms of intolerance.

    This country and many others have totally bought into consumerism and the selfish notions of property. That’s why so many are armed to the teeth – the fear, the expectation even, that someone is gonna come along and try to steal their stuff.

    All the righty tightys here ramble on about freedom and how they hate any kind of collectivism. Yet, most of us work in some capacity for a corporation. If a corporation does not qualify as a “collective,” I don’t know what does.

    I served 2 years in the Army during the Vietnam War. I hated virtually every minute of it. The military mind set is not one I find compatible with humane-ness. I fully agree with Cindy regarding how I look upon those in the military. I understand the hardships they suffer and can applaud their bravery in facing death on a daily basis. But I too, look upon them more as victims than heros.

    B

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    lol, I am too slow. cross-posted again. (Meaning I was typing while you were Jeannie, so I didn’t get the benefit of reading your comments 85.)

    lmao @ 87 :-)

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Hey I’m cool with you thinking of my military retirement check as victim pay, if it makes you feel better…

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Seventy-five percent of the voters in MA turned out in the snow yesterday? There is hope for you yet, Silas.

    This is a song I’m almost sure you heard as a child in school – but not likely in its original form, or from this singer. But it deals with the heritage you need to reclaim, the country you need to re-found, and the nation you need to move to become. I don’t think you will make it. The odds – including Prophecy – are stacked against you. But the effort is worth it to you. It’s your home.

  • http://therefoundingfather.blogspot.com/ THE REFOUNDING FATHER

    All:

    I browsed through the comments here just now. There are plenty of “eyebrow raising” points here.

    1. Jeannie, for the love of God stop with the Haiti comments. We all know what’s going on. We all feel bad. I’m sure we have all donated something, too.

    Maybe instead of constantly leading in the number of comments for the past 24 hours every day, you can organize a group of your buddies and head down to Haiti to help out. Otherwise, enough already. Stop acting like you’re above everybody else here.

    Whether you want to admit it or not, things like the election last night could actually have a lot to do with whether a country like ours will be able to continue to help places like Haiti in the future. If horrendous fiscal policies that put us further into debt and decrease investor confidence in the dollar continue (like health care and the stimulus), we won’t have the money to buy one Haitian a happy meal.

    2. Cindy and Jeannie…enough with the Tea Party comments. You’re embarrassing yourselves. For one, there are plenty of non-whites involved. It’s just stations like MSNBC or CNN won’t show them.

    Are there people who could be labeled as white supremacists? Sure…but don’t be naive and think that’s the majority…because it’s not. It’s a few individuals who the real Tea Partiers DO NOT SUPPORT. Get that straight.

    If the election of Scott Brown last night is any indication, the Tea Party movement is the real deal. It’s to be respected. It’s to be valued.

    The majority of the people that go to these rallies and support this cause are interested in limited government and lower taxes. They want to be heard. They’re not racists. They’re not stupid. They’re not ignorant.

    They’re Americans who want their country back.

    And shame on anyone who calls them anything but Patriots.

    – THE REFOUNDING FATHER

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Silas,

    The goodness of your heart shines through, whatever you do.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Hey B,

    We see similar problems.

    That’s why so many are armed to the teeth – the fear, the expectation even, that someone is gonna come along and try to steal their stuff.

    And yet, when I think about it, there is not, in reality, an actual scarcity of stuff that would warrant fear. There is actually too much stuff, it seems. So much stuff–we have TV shows about how to unburden ourselves of the deleterious effects of consumerism. We pile things up and rent spaces for stuff we aren’t using. We buy three of the same thing, because we have so much stuff, we can’t find the other two we know we have–somewhere. I remember the day I paid another $15 for a second fuse puller. I have 4 fuses in my house.

  • zingzing

    “They’re Americans who want their country back.”

    win the next election. the dems said the same thing.

    “And shame on anyone who calls them anything but Patriots.”

    remember the republicans saying that criticizing bush was tantamount to hating your country? that to oppose the war was unpatriotic? that it “gave comfort to the enemy?”

    everything goes in cycles. politics is bullshit.

    “They’re not racists. They’re not stupid. They’re not ignorant.”

    well… certainly not all of them. but some of them certainly are. it’s like any fringe group. you’re going to attract some dumbasses. you’re going to attract crazies. and be careful that one of them isn’t charismatic enough to take over and truly radicalize the movement.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    This notion that tea partiers are to be somehow revered is overstated at best. They are being duped by the likes of Glen Beck and others no less than any other “followers.” It’s all a sham, just a show that helps the rich stay rich. So, shame on me. I don’t see them as being any more patriotic than anybody else. Are they racist? No doubt some are. Are they selfish? Pretty much.

    And, as I noted above regarding nationalism, so called patriotism is not so much a virtue as it is another means to divide and polarize. Patriotism is NOT a holy grail.

    B

  • zingzing

    revered?

    they should be ridiculed. and they are.

    people have such short memories. they act as if this kind of thing hasn’t come up time and time again for generations. it’s all the same.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Zing,#97,

    So, putting tea bags all over a stupid hat and parading in the streets like an idiot and embarrassing the rest of us is what?

    “They’re Americans who want their country back.”

    THEY never had it!!!!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    TRF, OR SENATOR BROWN, OR whatever you are calling yourself today on-line.

    Who do you think you are telling ME to be quite about the need for help in HAITI.

    You do not control anyone here, do you understand that?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    I came back on -line to share some really great news with Christine…and anyone else who would like to know.

    They just pulled a six year old boy from the rubble! and he was dehydrated but OK!

    It is not too late!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Cindy,

    I almost apologised for expressing my beliefs, and then I thought, “Why should I?”

    We are still a free, people!

  • The Obnoxious American

    Lolll it’s hilarious to read the absurdities being espoused by Zing Btone and Jeannie. Sure, the tea party movement was all fake, just like the anti-war, bash bush movement was fake? Why can’t you just recognize that while people didn’t like what Bush was doing they also don’t like what Obama is doing?

    At least back when Bush was getting ripped daily by the likes of you folk, I wasn’t sitting there calling you fake. I had the decency to argue against the points you raised, in favor of the Bush policies you disagreed with.

    I think I know the answer for the difference. Deep down, you know there isn’t a good reason for about half of the platforms of the current president, and especially when it comes to so-called healthcare reform. Passing a 2000 page bill and cramming it in before anyone can read, relying on legislative tricks like not seating an elected senator and the like aren’t kosher no matter what capital letter follows the name of the president. Not to mention the fact that it won’t do most if not all of the things the left claims, and that the focus should have been on jobs this past year. So if you had to argue the point, you know you’d lose. Much easier to claim that the opposition doesn’t exist than actually think about and respond to the concerns.

    Not only are the emperor’s clothes showing but so are those of the Democratic party.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    relying on legislative tricks like not seating an elected senator

    Who?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Zing! #97,

    Oh, so you didn’t write that happy horseshit, he did!

    You know, I have been on this damn computer for so long today that my eyes feel greasy…see you all later.

    unless I think of something more to bitch about!

    BYEEEE:)

  • Doug Hunter

    “So much stuff–we have TV shows about how to unburden ourselves of the deleterious effects of consumerism. We pile things up and rent spaces for stuff we aren’t using. We buy three of the same thing, because we have so much stuff, we can’t find the other two we know we have–somewhere. I remember the day I paid another $15 for a second fuse puller. I have 4 fuses in my house.” – Cindy

    It always amazes me how you intersperse tacit support for authoritarian government and it’s leftward forces with moments of lucidity. I’m 100% with you in regards to consumerism, I simply limit my dealings with such things to making my opinion known (to those willing to listen) and setting an example for my children and family. No passing laws, no declaring people who like different things mentally ill, no forcing.

    It appears from my vantagepoint that you guys are just as desparate to get at the money and stuff of the wealthy as they are to keep their money and stuff. It kinda takes the air out of the words that are coming from your mouths (i.e. money’s not really that important, but by the way give me all yours) and I see little of the moral superiority some might claim there. They’re greedy, you’re jealous… so what.

    Except for your opinion that I’m mentally ill, I usually enjoy your thoughts. What do you think about a society like the Amish? They have little consumerism, a huge focus on community, will accept no help or insurance (having opted out of social security, medicare, medicaid) yet having few social problems like crime and have maintained a life expectancy of around 75 that has only recently been matched by the rest of the US.

    My roots are in a farming community and I feel my view has been shaped by the same forces that have surrounded the Amish, I share alot of the values without the religion.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Andy,

    Since we had such a public verbal fight with each-other ,I want to ask that you accept my apology.

    Not for being a LIBERAL, but for being such an ass towards you:(

  • Mark

    Doug #107, Cindy’s …tacit support for authoritarian government…

    ?

    I’ve got some roots in the ‘Show Me’ State

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Doug, #107,

    What do you think about a society like the Amish? They have little consumerism, a huge focus on community, will accept no help or insurance (having opted out of social security, medicare, medicaid) yet having few social problems like crime and have maintained a life expectancy of around 75 that has only recently been matched by the rest of the US.

    OMG, I am still here!OK just one more!

    The Amish, although they don’t drive cars or use electricity are not what they appear. At least not here.

    We, drive them everywhere. They just pay gas and travel expenses.

    They shop in all the stores and now have pockets and wear bright colors.

    They let their daughters work until marriage and they take all of their pay at the end of the week.

    The girls can only go to about the eighth grade(equivalent in home schooling.)

    And, the last time I saw an Amish girl walking in the parking lot at my local store, she was smoking a cigarette!

    now I really am going :)

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Doug, your assumptions about our motives are just that: Assumptions. I don’t covet what others have. I make a modest living and have a decent home and so on. I even own some stuff. Aside from my home, the most valuable thing I own is a 10 year old Subaru.

    I do wish we were a bit more secure as we are heading into our so called “golden years” – a euphemism that pretty much makes me gag. Nor do I believe that people on the left by and large covet what others have. What they DO want in light of this country’s largess is a level playing field and other basics like access to adequate health care, education and so on. Is that so much to expect?

    What is it that brought about the French Revolution? Poor people having to watch the rich brandish their wealth before them while they had nothing. Here and now one can watch something like “The Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous” which amounts to the same thing. And a significant # of those who flaunt their wealth via conspicuous consumption did little or nothing to earn it, or did so by defrauding others.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I don’t follow you, Doug. There is zero support for govt in my observation (which you quoted there), tacit or otherwise. You are infusing it with your own presumptions is my guess.

    Without the religion, as you pointed out, I like the community spirit of the Amish. We are not in disagreement. Everybody works and contributes and everybody counts. That is one example. But there is no reason that everyone would have to choose that example. Some people, like me, like technology, plays, IMAX, movies, electricity. There is no reason there cannot be urban, suburban, and rural communities which each decide, amongst themselves, how they want to live.

    No government necessary. Just involved people. And the lack of involvement in the current system is no indication of involvement in a system where your voice actually does make a difference–directly.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Ha, ha, ha, just one more!!

    My husband just came home and suggested that I quote directly from the Constitution of the United States for the good Senator.

    TRF, #94,

    Amendment I.

    “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

    The above quote should serve as a reminder for the Senator from Montana.

    AND TRF, if you made more comments here,then your name would be in that little widget also!

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    109 – I should learn to reload, after I write but before I post, Mark. It’s a habit today to post things out of sync with what went before. :-)

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    110 – Jeannie,

    I will put that authoritarianism in with the ‘religion’ thing. And stick with only liking the community spirit. Thanks for pointing that stuff out.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Cindy, #112, No government necessary. Just involved people. And the lack of involvement in the current system is no indication of involvement in a system where your voice actually does make a difference–directly.

    I want to move there! Cindy’s town! And I really mean this, I’m not being facetious. :)bye

  • The Obnoxious American

    Doc,

    There was a video on RCP of Kerry saying well it took 10-12 days to seat kennedy, which isn’t true, he was seated the next day without the vote being certified. This seating question was being bandied about as a way to get the HC reform vote passed in time for applause at the SOTU next week. I suspect that after getting a taste of reality, cooler heads are prevailing. But these types of legalistic anti-democratic tactics were at least being discussed by the leaders on the left. I actually hope they go through with it, so I can watch in morbid fascination.

    Cindy and BTone,

    Doug nailed you dog! It’s laughable to suggest you don’t covet. The extreme left’s platform of spreading the wealth around (Obama’s phrase, not mine) is precisely about coveting. You feel that the rich have gotten wealthy off the backs of labor, they don’t have a right to what they have, they got rich by making others poor, whatever. Any way you try and spin it to be righteous it’s still your hands in others pockets, and with a gun barrel pointed at their heads. It doesn’t matter how you rationalize it, it’s still coveting.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Jeannie just became an anarchist. Wow. Okay, who’s next?

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    B,

    An addendum to our discussion about stuff. Did you ever think that people are not really actually buying stuff? It seems they are really trying to buy happiness.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    First: OA – You are wrong. You’re very cynical, but you are wrong. Your eagerness to deride all of us has left you essentially brainless.

    Cindy: Of course you’re right. We are led to believe that if we buy stuff that it will make us happy. It rarely does. Frankly, anyone who finds “happiness” from a big screen TV or a new car, is someone who has no life.

    Watch TV commercials. Count how many of them cajole the viewer into the notion that a beer (or whatever product) is to be valued more than a human relationship. People are depicted in ads at near orgasm over a car. Kids have killed other kids for a pair of shoes.

    BTW – I’m with you regarding groups like the Amish. I am not one who wants to go back in time. I think modern technology is great, but I’d rather see greater efforts being made to cure cancer than to produce “new and improved” plastic vomit. But, if it suits some folks to live in a pre-industrial society, so be it.

  • Doug Hunter

    #109 Mark. Tacit support, by definition, doesn’t lend itself well to cut and paste proof and I have a bad tendency of seeing the phrase authoritarian government as a tad redundant. That being said, she seems to reserve her sharpest barbs for those on the right, at least we pay lipservice to limiting government. I’ve never understood how big government globalists and anarchists have been able to wed themselves together so well on the left.

    #110 Jeannie, see below, definitely it is no Utopia and has problems like any society. Funny, you of all people would mention taking from someone’s paycheck for the general welfare as a bad thing!

    #112 Cindy, in know little of Amish life other than a couple of cursory essays and certainly it’s no utopia. They just seem to embody some of the principles I hold dear, especially in regards to family and community. It’s common for Amish to build an inlaw or grandparents house or addition near their place so that they can all share their time and group together and raise their kids. (they banned phones in the home because it kept people from face to face contact) That should be the model, not dumping people in a government project, handing them food stamps and a check, and enabling them to dissappear from society. Everyone in my family knows there’s an open invitation to live with us when they need to and a couple have taken advantage of it.

    #111 You said it’s not jealousy, then in the next paragraph go on to say that the French revolution was caused by the poor having to watch the rich live, sounds like jealousy to me then justified it with conspicuous consumption, etc.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    This has been a good thread. If electing another a . . .hole into office has such a positive effect on radicalizing the Left, I’m all for it. The more the merrier.

    Let the Right bask in glory for stopping the Obama train and think of recapturing our glorious past. It’ll soon prove to be another illusion, no different from the one entertained the Obamamaniacs.

    The sooner we realize that our political system and thinking are too anachronistic and out of date to handle the humanity’s problems in the 21st century, the better.

    So yes, Cindy is pressing on. Jeannie and Baritone are the new converts, not to mention Jordan and Mark who was already there. If loss of one senatorial seat can produce such results and expand people’s thinking, let’s have more of the same.

    I wouldn’t regret one bit if the conservatives were to regain power in both houses and the Oval Office come 2012. Perhaps that’s precisely what’s needed before the final putsch.

  • Baronius

    If someone talks about Charlize Theron for hours on end, I’m going to think he wants Charlize Theron. Liberals talk about the fat cats, and the rich getting richer, and sometimes even forget to talk about the poor. They want the rich people’s money; of course they want it. They’re obsessed with other people’s posessions.

    I don’t know one conservative with a big-screen TV. I can think of two liberal friends who have them. Why do liberals talk about people buying too many things? Even my lib friends don’t fall for consumerism, and as far as I know they don’t run up credit card debt. Maybe there are people out there who are demented materialists, but I just don’t have the experience of it.

  • Baronius

    One conservative, now that I think about it, with an older model big-screen TV. And I know a lot more conservatives than liberals.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    The problem with the French Revolution was that it was essentially (or ended up as) bourgeois revolution.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Wow, Cindy, thank you for the nice words. Sorry I’m so late returning to this thread.

    Roger, I’m not talking out of both sides of my mouth. Like Cindy, I actually think I’m lucid. All Scott Brown has been these last few days is a conduit. I don’t agree with all his positions but I know his reputation on Beacon Hill. He is who he is – and for the most part anyone who has dealt with him in the State House has found him to be genuine while still being a pain in the ass.

    Yesterday’s election wasn’t about the Tea Party. They have their place albeit a small one. It wasn’t about the GOP, Mr. Brown has always been very deliberate in expressing to the electorate that his candidacies over the years were less about party affiliation and more about Independence. Even Scott Brown is not in step with the current Congressional GOP Leadership though factions from all sides will try to convince you differently.

    Let me explain something quickly about Mr. Brown. He comes from a small town which almost borders Rhode Island. Some parts of it are affluent, others not. The people in Wrentham, MA are some of the most down to earth, charitable people you’d ever want to meet. In the first half of the 20th century all the town was known for was the state run “school” which was nothing more than an asylum for “special needs” people who were discarded like trash by their own families. It’s a typical Yankee town with a rich history.

    While many don’t even give a damn about roots any longer – it is what drives me. Whenever I visit a different place, I go to the local businesses, cafes, watering holes. Why? I want to get to know the locals. I want to learn what makes them tick and why they choose to be where they are. I want to understand their ciurcumstances so I can get an appreciation of my own. That’s what it is all about. Listening, discussion, dialog. Getting to know people – understand them and perhaps even comprehend why they take the positions they do. That’s what politicians should do. That’s what we as humans should do.

    While the pundits around this country are spinning the election results to promote their respective cause – unless you live in Massachusetts one really doesn’t have a clue as to what caused this upheaval. The MSM didn’t even have exit polling in place because they thought Coakley had the race sewn up. My Babci used to say Man plans, God laughs. Well, the MSM presumed and the voters decided differently. We need more of that in this country.

    I still have traces of faith left in the belief that we can turn this country around. We’ve got the talent — I just don’t know if we have the drive. What I do know is we’re entering a new period in human history which requires a lot of creativity and cooperation among all people. It won’t be easy nor will it be painless — but it is necessary if we are to survive as a species.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Noxious? 117…does that make any sense to anyone but you?

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Obnox, Doug, Baronius,

    You’re ascribing motives which for the most part simply aren’t there. Most ‘liberals’ are interested in fairness rather than taking what they themselves don’t have.

    You can’t seriously think wealthy liberals like Kerry, the Kennedys, the Clintons and Soros are motivated by covetousness. Come on now.

    Don’t assume that everybody thinks the way you do.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #123 – it’s a hell of a caricature, about being obsessed with other people’s money. Is it a product of your personal experience or just a convenient characterization? Just wonder.

    And what is the value of such a summation? To argue that the conservatives aren’t subject to conspicuous consumption?

    If you’re reach, you don’t have to be conspicuous. You invest in real estate, buy some luxury goods – Clavos comes to mind – and live the rest of your life in comfort.

    It’s precisely when talking of the poor or the working poor that the term like “conspicuous consumption” has the most sting. They can’t afford it and they ought to know better. Yet, they can’t help it because they’ve been brainwashed. They are wannabes.

  • Baronius

    Dread and Roger, apparently you’re rubber and I’m glue. Anything I say about the liberal obsession with other people’s money means that I’m greedy.

    It’s a theme that I don’t comment on, but it’s always there. I’m glad that OA reminded me of it. The Left is always talking about the wealth of others, more than the poverty of those they claim to want to help. It becomes background noise. But make no mistake about it, we on the Right have noticed it.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Yes, Silas, we can still turn this country around, but it’s not going to be via the teabaggers. Perhaps you’re right not to associate Scott Brown’s victory last night with the Tea Party movement, perhaps you’re wrong. Time will tell. But I wouldn’t cite his victory as heralding a new kind of awakening. Far from it. If anything, it was a referendum on Obama, nothing more.

    Much more will be required, friend, to turn this country around than reverting to “conservative principles,” whatever that might mean anymore. We shall be required to think of our problems as being inseparable from humanity’s problems and act accordingly. As long as we are still thinking factional politics, what’s good for number one, never mind your neighbor, it ain’t gonna happen.

    See, we had a chance, a splendid opportunity, to acquire these attitudes and adopt this way of thinking while we were still prosperous. Then, what simpler proposition could there be than try to extend this prosperity to other peoples and nations.

    Unfortunately, these times are long gone and we’re quickly approaching the Third World living standards, or at least we think we are. And so, we’re more and more like distressed rats in a cage. Certainly not the best kind of environment out of which to forge a new and enlightened human being.

    Stick around. Cindy will radicalize you some more.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Baronius,

    I never said you’re greedy. Give me a quotation and I’ll kiss your butt. It’s your generalization to which I object.

    If the Left is addressing other people’s wealth, it’s only indirectly, by way of redressing the imbalances in our society. That’s the most important element that you’ve chosen to leave out.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Baronius (#123,124),

    +100 Budy, I literally could not have said it better myself.

    Cindy,

    Baronius understood what I was saying. He more than made the point I was trying to make. Feel free to read what he said instead of my post. After a year of hearing the Bama rail against fat cats, the rich, wall street types, the bankers, planning a massive expansion of the state on the back of the so called rich, and with the leftish hordes screaming along yes we can, it’s pretty hard to now suggest that the left doesn’t covet what the wealthy has. They not only covet it, they believe it is theirs to spend.

    Hoping you understand this post as well. I’d use shapes if that helped :>

    Doc,

    Fairness means if I work for something I should get to keep it. Fairness is NOT spreading the wealth around (unless as someone whose earned wealth decides to do just that – and plenty do). Government enforced spreading of the wealth isn’t only unfair, it’s something other than freedom. And all of this isn’t even getting to the fact that Obama’s own definition of “rich” really isn’t especially in places like New York or California.

    To your other point, I don’t think all lefties think that way. There are plenty of moderate dems (I used to be considered one till the 2000s when the left lost it’s collective mind). Even you are usually pretty sensible, aside from recent snippyness.

    That said, the Clintons shouldn’t be lumped in with Soros. They might be left wingers, but Clinton governed as a centrist. Soros on the other hand isn’t motivated by covetousness, but rather a totally f’d up ideology and perhaps guilt for being so rich. Often those in leadership positions don’t have the same motives or views as the followers of that movement.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Isn’t that a reflection of the culture, Roger? Take Heidi Montag Pratt — she’s a reality star with 10 plastic surgeries under her belt at 23 years of age. She looks like a living Bari doll. By the time she’s 25 she’ll look like a Stepford wife / Mannequin.

    We’ve been brainwashed into believing we need the designer clothes, full lips, vaginal rejuvenations and Viagra just to achieve erection. Our “role models” are people like Speidi, Sookie and a dozen other wannabes who have made it “big” in television. To be sexy is to be a human toothpick like Kate Moss but nowadays you gotta have big boobs. Who cares if the lady’s shoulders have crevices deeper than the Grand Canyon — there’s a plastic surgeon out there who will fill them in with silly putty.

    Give me a woman with the chiseled looks and wrinkles of Lauren Bacall. There’s sex on a stick that ages gracefully. Give me a man with the classic handsome features of Robert Mitchum — quiet, masculine, confident. Give me a human who uses the Golden Rule as his/her guide but refrains from imposing the same on me under the guise of “redemption”.

    As I drove through Boston this afternoon I was thinking that in many ways life after death is a harvest. What we do during the course of our lives sows seeds. Some are fertile, some dead. At the end of the day if one has sown more fertile seeds than dud, there are rewards. For each of us there is a different concept as to what exists after the death of the physical body. For some there is the spiritual realm — for others nothingness. Regardless of what there is, it’s still a harvest that one should strive to leave behind. I want to be that kind of man. When I am slipping off to that eternal slumber I want to be able to do so satisfied in knowing that I tried to correct the wrongs of all the bad seeds I’ve sown. And I want to be able to say to myself, Buddy, you did good.

    As Kahlil Gibran says on Self-Knowledge in The Prophet

    Say not, “I have found the truth,” but rather, “I have found a truth.”

    Say not, “I have found the path of the soul.” Say rather, “I have met the soul walking upon my path.”

    For the soul walks upon all paths.

    The soul walks not upon a line, neither does it grow like a reed.

    The soul unfolds itself, like a lotus of countless petals.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Roger,

    Nice word play – you could work for Obama with a pen like that.

    You’re not worried about others possessions, only perhaps indirectly and only to correct imbalances. Got it. Sounds great but doesn’t change the fact that at it’s root, you want what others have, and you want the right to use it as you, not they, see fit.

    It’s not indirect, it’s direct. It’s not to correct imbalance, it’s to restrict the freedom of those that earn it. You can spin it any way you wish, but when you have your hands in my pocket, expect that hand to get slapped, just like it did in MA last night.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, OA. I’m neither a liberal, nor a Democrat – if anything, I’m an ultra-progressive, so much so, perhaps, that I wouldn’t mind one bit if the Reps were in total control come 2012.

    I just happen to think that the American people haven’t experienced yet the kind of hardship that is due them, that not unless we hit rock-bottom that we shall finally be able to think of anyone but ourselves.

    I’m not exactly in favor of Soviet gulags and indoctrination camps, but that’s precisely what’s needed in order to educate the total populace and bring them into the 21st century. Fortunately, I don’t have to press for this kind of solution because it’s happening anyways. We shall be forced unto our knees before we can start thinking afresh and anew – not just as Americans, because this term is about to lose its original meaning – but as people at large, bound together by common history and circumstance, not as separate from the rest but as part of the common humanity which binds us all.

    And since prosperity will no longer deliver the requisite mindset, misery surely will.

  • Baronius

    Roger, I’m sorry if I misread your comment #129.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Fairness is NOT spreading the wealth around (unless as someone whose earned wealth decides to do just that – and plenty do). Government enforced spreading of the wealth isn’t only unfair, it’s something other than freedom.

    You’re caricaturing Obama’s “spread the wealth” remark to Joe the Plumber as so many have before you. Put in context, he was expressing the opinion that if wealth, taken as a commodity, is available to all the members of a community instead of just a few it makes for a better and stronger community. At no point did he advocate forcibly taking wealth from the few and redistributing it to the many.

    Even you are usually pretty sensible, aside from recent snippyness.

    Why, thank you. I don’t think I was snippy, though. I think you expressed one or two weak positions with nothing to back them up apart from your own perception. When I called you on them, you started heaving the ad hominems.

    Soros on the other hand isn’t motivated by covetousness, but rather a totally f’d up ideology and perhaps guilt for being so rich.

    Hey, you’re doing it again. How do you know this?

    Often those in leadership positions don’t have the same motives or views as the followers of that movement.

    Either way you look at it, that statement does rather kneecap your previous attribution of motives.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It’s indirect, OA, in the sense of the stated objective – to wit, if correcting the imbalances is the end, some redistribution of (or check on accumulation of) wealth is the means.

    You see, I come from a position that a society, just like a community, is an integral kind of thing – something over and above mere aggregate of the individuals. Consequently, each individual has a responsibility for the society or community of which they’re a part, just as the society or the community in question has a certain responsibility for the well-being of its members.

    I don’t subscribe, in other words, to the atomistic view whereby the individual is given a free reign to do as they please – the state of laws notwithstanding – free, in other words, to ignore the well-being of the other members. It’s a myopic view not only from the pragmatic standpoint but from a moral one as well.

    No one is an island, OA, and basing your political philosophy on such a simplistic proposition just is against the grain. It never worked and it never will.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    No sweat, Baronius. It is a good discussion.

  • Doug Hunter

    “For some there is the spiritual realm — for others nothingness”

    Now there’s a fascinating topic I’ve spent quite some time going over. It seems like there is some unique “me” trapped inside this body that is more than the sum of chemical reactions, or not. Either way, I am and the likelihood of that realization being unique seems farfetched. Call me a reincarnationist without all the contacting former lives mumbo jumbo.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Dread… apparently you’re rubber and I’m glue. Anything I say about the liberal obsession with other people’s money means that I’m greedy.

    Not at all what I said. I merely think you had a failure of empathy there. I think you attributed covetousness based on your assumption of the way you think a liberal might think, rather than trying to understand how one actually does think.

  • Doug Hunter

    “I’m not exactly in favor of Soviet gulags and indoctrination camps, but that’s precisely what’s needed in order to educate the total populace and bring them into the 21st century.”

    That doesn’t surprise me at all, it’s the logical conclusion of the sickness that resides on your end of the political spectrum. I’m glad that you’ve been honest, it’s just a shame you can’t see what’s wrong with your statement. It’s clear as a bell from where I sit.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, Silas, I’ve got the Humphrey Bogart look, or Mick Jagger’s perhaps. Keith Richards is the best bet. But that’s neither here nor there.

    You speak of culture. But our culture is direct expression of our economic system which is geared to one thing and one thing only: spend, spend, and spend. It’s geared to involving the working classes in the all-absorbing consumption process, heralding material goods as symbol of success. And the poor slobs have fallen for it.

    There was a time, as I argued time and again, to turn the vicious circle around, to re-educate the American people, to instill other values besides. But no. We failed miserably in that respect, and we produced a nation of morons.

    So now, I’ll argue that since that golden opportunity was squandered, nothing but hard times will make us see the light.

    So bring it on, I say. The sooner the better.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Ascription is a good word. Just what I was looking for.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Doc,

    You’re caricaturing Obama’s “spread the wealth” remark to Joe the Plumber as so many have before you. Put in context, he was expressing the opinion that if wealth, taken as a commodity, is available to all the members of a community instead of just a few it makes for a better and stronger community. At no point did he advocate forcibly taking wealth from the few and redistributing it to the many.”

    Ever heard of the IRS? What do you think raising taxes on the wealthiest few means (again, Obama’s own words)? It’s not an optional tax doc. It’s at the end of a gun. And Obama wasn’t being taken out of context. In fact, his platform over the last year has proven that this wasn’t an abberation but in fact his entire platform.

    I’m not going to debate the motives of Soros, because for one I think it’s pretty obvious he is an ideologue (and shocked you’d argue that point) but two, don’t have the time or interest to research that for you. But to your point of leaders vs followers motives being different kneecapping my other assertions, I don’t see how. Obama doesn’t really believe in the platforms he espouses, he has the aides telling him what’s what. In his case, it’s about vanity, and the left gives him what he needs to feel good. They use him to be their inspiring leader, he uses them to feel good. This doesn’t change the ideals of the movement.

    Roger:

    “It’s indirect, OA, in the sense of the stated objective – to wit, if correcting the imbalances is the end, some redistribution of (or check on accumulation of) wealth is the means.”

    Lolll thanks for that, best laugh I had all day. I can imagine you sitting there spinning faster than a top. Don’t get dizzy.

    “I don’t subscribe, in other words, to the atomistic view whereby the individual is given a free reign to do as they please – the state of laws notwithstanding – free, in other words, to ignore the well-being of the other members. It’s a myopic view not only from the pragmatic standpoint but from a moral one as well. “

    It’s not myopic at all. In fact, it’s proven by history. By and large, people aren’t motivated by the overall good will, you might be but on average, people are motivated by what’s best for them.

    And think about that for a moment. If people focused on what was truly best for them and their family, then we wouldn’t have most of the problems we see in the world. Would an addict even take drugs if he did purely what was in his best interest? Would there be so many black children with no direction if their fathers did what was best for them?

    Charity begins at home for a reason. You take care of yours, I take care of mine and things tend to work out ok. When you expect me to take care of yours and mine, well we saw what that was like in soviet U.S.S.R. I’d advise talking to some former soviets and ask them what it was like to work and live there. People didn’t work. Because they didn’t have to. And eventually it fell apart but not after lots of suffering and lives spent in true “quiet desperation.” I’m sure you’ll write that off as a simplistic view of what happened and you’re right, it is simplistic, because what happened was pretty simple to understand.

    “No one is an island, OA, and basing your political philosophy on such a simplistic proposition just is against the grain. It never worked and it never will. “

    You’re right, no one is an island. And when you don’t take care of yours, and expect me to, thats when things get screwed up. The problem with your simplistic, and in view of actual history, niave outlook, is that you suggest that from the start, we’re all responsible for you. People aren’t designed that way, and inevitably what you end up with in such a system is a whole bunch of unmotivated and unproductive people waiting to be given stuff. Like Obama Money.

  • http://cqpinion.blogspot.com/ KruticA

    Hopium has worn off, the smoke has cleared and looks like the Emperor has no clothes.

    The awesome change being delivered has led to Martha Croakley, Chris Dead, Bygone Dorgan.

    Next up: Harry Died, Blanched Lincoln and Evan Byah Byah and Arlen Spectator.

    I hope the President continues delivering this change till November.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I’m not talking, OA, by what people ARE motivated by, only by what they ought to be when it comes to a society or a community.

    You surely don’t think just of yourself if and when you have a family, wife, sons and daughters on your hands. Surely, you must think of everyone’s well-being within your family circle.

    So the question is -why suddenly change horse in midstream and posit yourself in an antagonistic position versus your society and local community. It doesn’t make any kind of sense.

    And the only way you can possibly justify making that kind of separation is, I submit, to be able to justify your wrongheaded political ideology.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Obnox, I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree as to our perception of taxes.

    Nobody likes being taxed. I can attest to this particularly since my wife and I have found ourselves in a higher tax bracket the last couple of years.

    However, it appears you miss your taxed earnings more than I do. That probably gives you a more jaundiced view of taxation.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Charity begins at home for a reason. You take care of yours, I take care of mine and things tend to work out ok.

    That paradigm works for a society that has a clue. This one, on the whole, does not.

    When you expect me to take care of yours and mine, well we saw what that was like in soviet U.S.S.R. I’d advise talking to some former soviets and ask them what it was like to work and live there

    Hah! The majority of my friends are directly from former Soviet bloc countries. The Russians, Poles, Bulgarians and Armenians I know tell me health care was much better and people do take care of each other. Believe it or not, there are many aspects of Soviet rule that are missed — so much so that there is a deep resentment toward Gorbachev. Regardless of how “oppressed” they were, there was one thing those people could and continue to count on — each other. That, my friend, is a foreign concept to the majority of Americans. That’s the truth — deal with it.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    And you’ve aptly stated, charity may begin at home, but it surely should spread beyond.

    You’re nothing but a beast if you confine the concept of charity to your immediate environment.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    You’re right, no one is an island. And when you don’t take care of yours, and expect me to, thats when things get screwed up.

    If you agree that no man is an island, how can you then say that Roger isn’t taking care of his island?

    The problem with your simplistic, and in view of actual history, niave outlook, is that you suggest that from the start, we’re all responsible for you. People aren’t designed that way, and inevitably what you end up with in such a system is a whole bunch of unmotivated and unproductive people waiting to be given stuff.

    Obnox, homo sapiens is a social animal – there’s no getting around that. I agree that you are inevitably going to end up with scroungers, but the only reason we have ‘a whole bunch of’ them in our modern society is that there is a bigger ‘whole bunch of’ everybody. It’s got little or nothing to do with which economic or political system is in place.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Doc,

    If you think it’s a perception, then try not paying taxes and tell me how that works out. Whether either of us is more sensitive to high taxes or not is irrelevant and doesn’t change what higher taxes to level the playing field really is or whether it’s wrong. By the same logic, if some women are ok with being beaten by their husbands, is it ok to beat women? I don’t think so.

    Roger,

    When my “local community” isn’t taking care of themselves and looking for me to take care of them, then I have every right to be antagonistic. The mortgage bailouts for homeowners to wit.

    I bought a responsible home within my means. I’m one of a small percentage of Americans who lives in a home which even in this market is still worth more than what I paid for it a mere 5 years ago – in the height of the bubble. Some other jerk bought a home outside of his means, with an interest only loan or an ARM and then cried for government help when SURPRISE, he couldn’t afford to pay anymore.

    What this ultimately gets down to is that people need to be responsible for themselves. THATS how they help the local community, not by rewarding bad individual behavior.

    I came from a very poor household. I had virtually none of the things my peers had in terms of education, support, etc. Yet, I knew I had to do what was best for me, and I lifted myself out of it, and made something of myself. I know plenty of others who didn’t and 9 times out of 10, there was nothing stopping these people from doing the same for themselves aside from an oversized set of entitlement.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/heloise Heloise

    But I want to know how does voting 95% with the GOP make him a tea party candidate? He may be a conservative cutey but not taking funds from the GOP does not make him estranged exactly from the GOP. Steele was quick to tout this win. I posted a link to Brown’s nude Cosmo centerfold picture because I’m jaded like that.

    PS and that wacko Wall Street watcher who did not see the stock meltdown coming said that the stock market would RALLY if Brown won. It tanked instead. He and Bill Crystal ought to get a show together. How wrong can you get and still get paid? would be a good title.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Silas,

    Wow, sounds wonderful. What happened?

    LOLLLLLL

    Doc, Roger,

    First I never said he wasn’t but if he was, then there wouldn’t be much of a need for my help would there? And I’m not against charity, but that’s not what we’re talking about when we say let’s tax the rich to level the playing field. That’s government enforced wealth redistribution.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Interesting concept, Dreadful, “the scroungers.”

    Are you using it merely as an offset against “whole bunch of everybody,” as a labeling term?

    I should think that even “the scroungers” could be brought around and become productive members in a society that values everyone’s contribution. To think otherwise is to take a very dim of humanity and individual abilities.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Clarification: First I never said he wasn’t taking care of his island

  • The Obnoxious American

    But Roger, thats the point. The more you take away personal responsibility, the more scroungers there are. Humans by and large are lazy. Wouldn’t you rather be on vacation all of the time? I sure as hell know I would. But I work 60 hours a week like a dog because I want something better for myself. If working that hard wasn’t rewarding, I wouldn’t do it. Now think for a second what the macro implications would be if we took away that reward. That’s what happens when we tax the so-called rich (those earning over 250k) ever more to pay for entitlements for all these people.

    This is why I keep saying “Obama Money” I’m not trying to suggest everyone on the left views things like the fool in that sound clip, but the more you take away the rewards for personal acheivement, the more people line up for their share of Obama’s stash. We can have a society that does for itself, or have one with it’s hand out. I’d much prefer the former, and so would you if you saw what the latter was like.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    That’s government enforced wealth redistribution.

    And it’s high time it happened. Sometimes one needs to blow up the grandstand to level the playing field.

    Wow, sounds wonderful. What happened?

    And we wonder why most Americans are viewed as obnoxious. Let me tell you something, OA. There’s nothing wrong with the concept of people taking care of each other as they did in the Soviet bloc. Even after coming to America these communities continue the practice. Domestic Americans are so quick to judge these communities because the majority of them shy away from assimilating into this consumerist, self-gratifying society. That’s conservative values. The way they live, no matter how “backward” you find them, is progressive.

  • Doug Hunter

    The underlying assumption that everyone seems to be making here is that wealth redistribution is automatically the best thing for society. Those rich people come in handy in a pinch. I bet our nice capitalists sent more money to Haiti in their time of need than the good welfare state of Haiti sent to us during Katrina. Have the collectivists in Cuba all together done as much to help the poor as Bill Gates alone with his $50 Billion foundation? The welfare state enables, supports, and prolongs negative behaviors by rewarding them and punishing those that try and pull themselves up. It’s very nature enables the elimination of the family that we all see. Where you would have been forced to come together with your family and community, now you just get stuck into a project with some food stamps and a meager check. (get married or get a job or make any attempt to work your way out and even that help will evaporate)

    Have you forgotten what it takes to make money in the first place? You make money by giving others what they want. Having accrued money should be a sign that you have given many people what they wanted and asked (spent) little in return, a laudable goal.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “When my “local community” isn’t taking care of themselves and looking for me to take care of them, then I have every right to be antagonistic.”

    That doesn’t make sense, OA. In what sense did your local community fail you? Your banks did and the Wall Street sharks.

    How are your friends, neighbors, acquaintances, different from you? Aren’t they suffering from selfsame malaise? How where they irresponsible or, to turn things around, responsible for the position you’re in. Surely you have friends who tell the same horror stories that you have experienced? How is your local community responsible for your lot?

    And what’s that business about “irresponsible individual behavior”? How many people do you know personally whom you can accuse of that? And how exactly have they contributed to your present situation? If anything, OA, it’d seem to me your wrath should be directed at the government and the business community, the collusion of the two, not against your own neighbors or your local community.

    Which isn’t to argue against personal responsibility, OA? I’m all for it. And I’m certain that in your communications with your acquaintances and friends, you do your damnedest to impress it on all and sundry. But still, you shouldn’t blame your neighbors and your local community for the lot that has befallen you. It wasn’t their doing and you know it. If anything, you should be encouraging the spirit of cooperation and common plight.

    That’s the enlightened attitude. And I expect nothing less of you, OA.

  • Doug Hunter

    “And it’s high time it happened. Sometimes one needs to blow up the grandstand to level the playing field.”

    One of the ways, other than inheritance, that this imbalance keeps propagating is through entrenched power backed up and entangled with the good ole US government. I believe that an inheritance tax (with far fewer loopholes) would be a good thing and that the government should cut it’s corporate welfare first and foremost, before thinking about cutting services to the needy.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “Humans by and large are lazy.”

    How did you ever come about this gem of a thought, OA? This surely reveals your wishful thinking, the desire to perpetuate your notion of victimhood.

    On the contrary, most humans are just the opposite of that. I dare you. I double dare you.

    Apparently, you don’t have offspring, because you’d never embarrass yourself so if you had.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    Bar – what country do you live in? Do you really believe what you write?

    I appraise homes in and around Indianapolis. I would be more than willing to bet you or anyone that 75% to 80% of the homes in this market that are above the median price are owned by Republicans or otherwise political conservatives. A large number of those homes have 3 car garages with the cars to park in them, and we’re not talking about 5 year old Corollas. And – AND they more often than not have at least one, and often several humongo big screen TVs. Don’t tell me that conservatives are not high level consumers.

    Who, in your mind, IS buying all the big ticket crap that pours out of electronic stores? Do you suppose it’s all being bought up by welfare queens? Or perhaps the kids who want to know if you want fries with that? Get real!

    Perhaps you should get out more.

    B

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Cindy, #118,
    Maybe you have! :)

    But in the meantime , what are we supposed to do in this shamble, walk backwards? O was the only logical choice. I am an independent and in all of my voting years, I have never received an invitation to an Independent Convention..it must have gotten lost in the mail!

  • Zedd

    Dave,

    Yes he did win but not for the reasons that you state. Get to know the guy a little more.

  • Zedd

    I think the fact that he’s cute may have helped. Former model and all….

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Money, money, money, money, philanthropy, money, money, gimme, gimme, gimme.

    It’s all about damn money in this country. Anybody bother to look at the fourth quarter losses for Bank of America? Where is the outrage? Where are the Republicans and Democrats? Why hasn’t Bank of America been dissolved? This Administration is running scared because Barack Obama won’t get bold. As far as I am concerned this man should go all the way over to the Left so hard that it causes Conservative heads to explode like Mars Attacks. Perhaps then, and only then, we’ll find our way to the center.

  • Zedd

    that this is a political viewpoint rather than a human mental illness

    Whewwwwww

    Wow is good old (give’m the ole 1-2) Cindy back???

    Mellow Cindy was kinda creepy!! She made me kinda nervous.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Doug, #110,

    You are assuming that the Amish are socailists, me too for that matter.

    No, when I said they take the girl’s paycheck at the end of the week, I meant her father.
    In PA, there is a very wealthy family raising greyhounds for FLA. They work for themselves by building homes and roofing, baked goods and vegetable stands, etc…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    There is no longer a center, Silas. The idea of center makes sense only if politics makes sense.

    We’re way beyond that point.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Roger, 122,

    The sooner we realize that our political system and thinking are too anachronistic and out of date to handle the humanity’s problems in the 21st century, the better.

    Yes, the whole thing is out of date..so why would you end this by saying that you hope the GOP takes both houses in 2010?
    OMG, If the FTS from M is any indication of what that would be like, then I don’t know what is!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Rog, hope you see this tonight.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Because the American people need a shock treatment. They need to land on their ass, experience a hurricane or any natural disaster, an earthquake, or simply downright poverty, if there’s any hope for them.

    Nothing less will do.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Nah. They just need a nice cup of tea.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Doc, #128,

    Yes, liberals think in the lines of fairness, not hand-outs!

    Also, I see this obsession by the T’s with trying to avoid paying any more taxes, as refusing to pull their own weight for the betterment of the whole country.

    Liberals don’t want your money! not all of it anyway:)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #175,

    That’s where British kind of humor is perhaps the only way to sanity. Keep on!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Roger,

    The spoiled brats would never survive.

    Just look at the strength and spirit of the Haitians! Babies being pulled out alive Ten days into it! And most of them have been rescued by the Israeli! Ruvy:)

    When it comes to search, rescue and field hospitals, the people of Israel rock!

  • Baronius

    Nothing like seeing the principled progressives wishing suffering upon their fellow man.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Jeannie,

    I certainly don’t want to piss on the parade, but it goes with what I’m saying.

    There are only two ways to human enlightenment. Either through the condition of relative prosperity or outright misery.

    Obviously, we Americans have missed the boat on the first score. Our only hope is to experience the latter, just like the Haitians do. And then, God willing, perhaps we, too, will turn around and see ourselves as no better than any of our brethren. (Unless of course we decide to turn against our own kind and all others as mad dogs.)

    It’s the only hope that’s left. I can’t think of no other.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    As a man of cloth or one who follows men of cloth, you should be the first to realize that suffering is good for the soul, Baronius.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Roger, #129,

    This was the gem.

    It’s precisely when talking of the poor or the working poor that the term like “conspicuous consumption” has the most sting. They can’t afford it and they ought to know better. Yet, they can’t help it because they’ve been brainwashed. They are wannabes.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    As I said, Jeannie, the Republican victory in Massachusetts is more than a mixed blessings. It appeared to have energized many minds, and that’s far more important than the balance of political power in the House or the Senate.

    Ultimately, it’s up to the people, Jeannie. And we shall overcome.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Roger,

    This was a looong day, buddy :)

    I had to come back and see if the site was still here!

    I wondered if people realize that the politician that was trying to sensor and gag today, probably would have a whole lot more of the same for everyone, if given the chance…still they would vote that way and cut off their own nose to spite their face!

    too tired to try to correct this sentence. night ROG :)

  • Doug Hunter

    #179 Don’t expect them to shy away from their comments. They believe anyone who disagrees with their politics is a mentally ill beast worthy of only complete reeducation or extermination. That’s what makes this place fun, getting to debate finer political points with radical crazies who would just as soon you die. It sorta puts the lie to that veneer of moral superiority they claim.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Same here, Jeannie, and till tomorrow.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Zedd,

    You are funny. :-)

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Doug,

    What are you doing there, trying to build one big fictitious person out of the ideas of several people?

    I believe in treating the mentally ill very well. I just don’t think taking advice about good ways to live from them makes much sense.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    At least in this instance.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Well, he’d become outrageous of late. In times past, there was a semblance of rationality but it’s all gone now.

    Perhaps because he was shunned a while back, which is why he keeps knocking on the door. So it’s more power to you, Cindy, if you honor him with a response. My position is – I won’t indulge him in his tantrum.

  • The Obnoxious American

    Silas,

    I take back what I said about roger giving me the best laugh of the day. You topped it when you started extolling the virtues of the soviet union. Great healthcare eh? Fab.

    My word it was 30 years ago, but back then when President Reagan got that wall to come down along with the soviet union, I never thought that I’d be arguing with fools talking about how great it was a mere 3 decades later. How quickly we forget. You’re evidence of the failures of our educational system, a perfect example of Dave’s article a few weeks back about revisionist history in our schools. And you call me obnoxious? Read a book!

    Roger,

    Yes, if someone blows it with their life, I should be antagonistic about it. What am I supposed to do, pet them?

    I’ve met a lot of downtrodden people in my life (and I used to be one), by the sound of it, alot more than you. And almost every one, to a tee, made decisions that caused their condition, not the other way around. And those that pulled themselves out of it didn’t do it by way of government handout but by their own will and determination.

    I was just watching a show on Tru TV, where these 20 year olds tried to rob Christies and of course got busted. Amateurish, childish plot that got them easily busted. The cops were saying, it’s too bad, these young guys had to go to jail, but you do the crime, be ready to do the time. This is true for all things not just breaking the law (though I suspect you don’t agree with putting people in jail for their actions either). Personal responsibility applies to more than crime however. You don’t wear a rubber when you’re 18, then don’t complain when you have kids to support. Don’t get an education or learn a trade that can support you, then expect to work for minimum wage and be exploited by the man. Don’t eat right or excersize, then don’t complain that your healthcare bills are high.

    Life has consequences and the more you protect people from these consequences the less people care about them. I can’t believe I am even explaining this to you, are you a child?

    AND Yes, humans are lazy. It’s not a bad thing it’s what drives progress. We wouldn’t have cars or TVs, couches, drive throughs or other conveniences if we weren’t lazy.

    I’m not sure what noble idealic fantasy world you live in but it’s time to let reality shine in. At least I’m honest about myself and about humanity, I tell it like it really is, not like how I wish it would be. And I still work my ass off to provide for my family.

    Thank god for the likes of reason, Doug and Baronius and I dare say myself. The rest of you would do well to take what the three of us are saying to heart. But you won’t.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “AND Yes, humans are lazy. It’s not a bad thing it’s what drives progress. We wouldn’t have cars or TVs, couches, drive throughs or other conveniences if we weren’t lazy.”

    OA. It’s the stupidest argument I’ve heard in a very long time. It ranks among the best, in fact.

    But why should I try to steer you clear of your way of thinking? Since I’m am an adversary and shouldn’t be giving a flying fuck about you, what is it to me?

    So let’s just leave it at that: I’ll let you be.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    And don’t blame Silas now for calling you obnoxious. It’s the handle you’ve chosen for yourself.

  • Baronius

    Doug, it is fascinating. The loss of one Senate seat (to 59!) is enough to make the “humanitarians” start fantasizing about earthquakes wiping out their political foes. In light of the images that are fresh in our minds, to wish that on someone…words fail me.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Yes, Baronius. As long as you’re a fat pig, you’ll remain a pig.

    You fail to see that when I wish for you to become leaner, I’m doing it only for your own good. And mine too.

    So sleep on that, fellow. Pleasant dreams, but don’t you get up now in the middle of the night for a snack. It’s a no no.

    Strictly verboten.

  • Doug Hunter

    #194 I think it’s more about wanting you to be desperate and forced to depend on big government, hopefully changing your outlook on it’s usefulness. He can wish, the problem is that bad things usually only happen to poor people or in any case hit the poor much harder. My parents house was demolished by a tornado in 2008 while they were home, I have noticed no subsequent difference in their political persuasion (maybe if the government would have cut them a fat check or something, but alas they got nothing).

    #195 Condescend much? Baronius will be the judge of what is for his own good, and I for me. That’s a fundamental difference between you and me, I’m willing to extend you that courtesy while you refuse to reciprocate.

  • STM

    Doc: “Nah. They just need a nice cup of tea.”

    Followed, of course, by a good lie down.

    It’s amazing how these two little pleasures, taken in concert where possible, can dissolve any of life’s little problems.

    But a nice cup of tea on its own can work wonders. Doc’s right: Americans need to take up tea-drinking en masse and learn to chill.

    Actually, I’m having a nice cuppa at my workstation as we speak.

    Half way through it, and everything seems so much better than it did 15 minutes ago, when I was working on a story on the mass shootings in Virginia.

    If only the alleged shooter had made himself a nice cuppa instead …

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    “You’re evidence of the failures of our educational system, a perfect example of Dave’s article a few weeks back about revisionist history in our schools. And you call me obnoxious? Read a book!”

    That is absolutely hysterical coming from someone who only credits Reagan with the Berlin Wall coming down.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    There you go again, OA. I never called you obnoxious specifically. I said no wonder others find Americans obnoxious.

    In addition, I was not extolling the virtues of the Soviet Bloc — just making a cognizant point of fact as was discussed with me by people who come from 4 countries who were in the Soviet bloc. Somehow, I think I’ll take their words over yours because they lived it. You’ve just spent your life believing the fallacy that the communists were intrinsically evil.

    I worked my ass off for Ronald Reagan in 1980 and 1984. I believed in every line that was fed to me and here I am 30 years later and I regret every second I spent because I had a role in setting the stage for where we’re at today. That’s something I am not very proud of. I was one of those who believed Jimmy Carter was the cause of the malaise and it turns out President Carter hit the nail on the head.

    I’ll always believe Ronald Reagan was a good man, a patriot and true to his convictions. But this sick Conservative obsession with his memory and their longing for all things Reagan is ridiculous. Nixon, Reagan abd Bill Clinton each played a role in bringing us to these crossroads. We can learn from our mistakes and rebuild or we can wallow in revisionist history of a special time when Washington was that bright city on a hill. Give me a break.

    It’s time for us to pass the torch to another generation free of the Reagan fantasy. That which was is no longer. America can continue to be the greatest country on Earth but must do so by setting a humble example. We all have to share this fragile ball of iron and had best find a way to do so and fast. Otherwise there will be nothing left for humanity to hang on to.

    Wake up, OA. It’s over. For the love of your progeny start looking around you. For me, it’s not so bad because I probably won’t be here when it;s time to pay the piper. Yet I worry for those I love — what they’re about to inherit — and it is a heavy burden I bear.

    Ironically, Ruvy’s steadfast adherence to Prophecy is quite comforting. If Ruvy is right in what he says, I know that the day will come when things will be changed but better. It’s just that painful process humanity faces in the meantime that scares me.

  • Doug Hunter

    “What are you doing there, trying to build one big fictitious person out of the ideas of several people?” – Cindy

    I like to call it frankenliberal, hey it’s one step above a strawman. I thought the rhetoric had probably gotten a little heated and thought I’d lay it out there and see if someone would back down a bit or at least better explain their position. No such luck. Suffice it to say I disagree that right wing thinking is a mental illness or that the best course of action, barring a natural disaster, is reeducation camps or the gulag.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    #

    The Tea Party wants to be an all white country…prove otherwise!

    Jeannie is working with the IDF to steal internal organs from Haitian earthquake victims. Prove otherwise!

    Do you see what a weakass argument that is?

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    For Jeannie: Holiday in Cambodia.

    Dave

  • Arch Conservative

    “The Tea Party wants to be an all white country…prove otherwise!”

    Jeannie isn’t a nick name for Jeannine is it?

    Jeannine Garofalo?

    How else can such consistent ignorance be explained?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Dave, #202,

    I am so glad you brought the subject up this morning. I found this statement in your thread yesterday, but I wanted a calmer atmosphere in-which to address it more fully.

    The following quote is from the Good Senator from Montana, otherwise know here as The Re founding Father.
    “Are there people who could be labeled as white supremacists? Sure…but don’t be naive and think that’s the majority…because it’s not. It’s a few individuals who the real Tea Partiers DO NOT SUPPORT. Get that straight.”

    I painted the comment that I made with a broad brush. I’ll admit that. Sorry :(

    But, just as I said yesterday, “deep in the bowels of this movement, racism and intolerance lurks.” known as the three letters by some…

    The question I have for all of you is, ” How do you know they won’t gain full power in the end?”

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    and, “Did someone just refer to me as Jeannine Garofalo?”

    Thanks! That is an honor!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Dave, #202,

    ? what’s the point?

    correction my last response was to your #201

    and TRF’s comment was number 94, even if it disappears it is not gone or forgotten.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    STM, #197,

    What country was that you live in?

    Australia, wasn’t it?

    We are too busy making the almighty buck in this society to stop and smell the TEA, so to speak!

  • http://therefoundingfather.blogspot.com/ THE REFOUNDING FATHER

    Hey OA, don’t waste your time trying to convince people like Jeannie and Roger they’re wrong. It’s not worth it.

    1. It’s funny, Jeannie talks about fairness. I’m just wondering how it’s fair that my tax dollars are sent to a mother of 8 for no other reason that for her to collect a paycheck.

    A mother who has the ability to work and is not disabled.

    A mother who only had 8 kids because she knew the government would send her a check for each of them each month.

    A mother who could care less about her kids and let’s them eat paint chips so they can get sick and collect even MORE money. Believe me, it happens. I have friends who are inner city school teachers.

    Jeannie…Roger…how is THAT fair? Please, enlighten me. It’s not fair to the taxpayers. It’s not fair to the kids.

    Are there people who are unable to work and may need a little help? Sure. I don’t mind helping those that really can’t help themselves. But, that’s a small minority of welfare recipients.

    The system we have now allows things like I described above to happen. What people like Jeannie and Roger FAIL to realize is that you don’t help these people by giving them a paycheck every month. That’s a quick fix.

    You help them by helping them to HELP themselves. People that can’t support themselves shouldn’t be having kids. Get your own finances in order and then have kids.

    But, here’s the thing. If they know they can get free money (it’s Obama MONEY! From his stash!)…do you think they will care about getting their life in order first? No, it’s free. How much do you care about things that are free?

    And, no, Jeannie I’m not talking about sterilizing people. So, don’t put words in my mouth.

    If people didn’t get the free money, naturally one would think they would THINK FIRST before they had sex. No laws involved. The potential consequences should be enough and people would be more aware if it was completely up to them.

    And if they still had 8 kids? Oh well, get a damn job. Let people fail. That’s the only way you learn.

    2. Yeah, Jeannie, every Tea Partier wants to avoid taxes..yada yada yada. What’s wrong with not wanting to pay MORE taxes? What’s wrong with that?

    If the government spent its money a little more wisely, the taxes we pay now would be sufficient.

    However, when you get these progressive morons in there who think they are saving the world by creating a social program for everything…or paying off somebody for that program…let’s just say you may run into a little debt.

    Tell me, Jeannie and Roger, do you understand ANYTHING about economics? Or are you just hippies from the ’60s? Peace and love to all, right? We are one giant global community of brothers and sisters, right?

    The problem with this country now is people like you are in office. People that believe in transnationalism and hand-outs. People that are ideologues (i.e. Obama). People that have no experience in business and know NOTHING about economics.

    We need to stop looking to college professors, liberal authors, liberal journalists, etc. for our business and economic advice. While some of their ideas may be great in THEORY, reality is a much different animal.

    The problem is a lot of these morons have been in our educational system for decades.

    And, well, you see their work in the minds of people like Jeannie and Roger.

    God Help Us…

    – THE REFOUNDING FATHER

  • STM

    Silas: ” … the Soviet bloc. Somehow, I think I’ll take their words over yours because they lived it.”

    Silas, take my word for it. I was on a job there for a short time in the early ’80s, which means I was treated pretty well apart from being followed around, mainly by the one KGB bloke who was at the metro station every day when I left my hotel.

    I became on nodding terms with him. “G’day Boris! Lovely morning, mate. Bit nippy though, eh?” Nudge nudge, wink wink.

    All jokes aside, it wasn’t that good, let me tell you. People queued for ANYTHING … they just joined when they saw a line.

    Toilet paper was hard to get; to get decent meat, fruit and vegetables you had to know people.

    And medical treatment was on the nose. Hardly world class, even if there were some good doctors in the system. Even Soviet leaders used to go to places like France for treatment.

    The only thing you could easily get was vodka. The beer was pretty good, though, and cheap!

    Still, comparing the Soviet Union in a favourable light against the United States is an exercise in futility.

    Dave Nalle and I come from opposite ends of the political spectrum in some respects, and we agree on others.

    Dave’s been in the USSR too – ask him. He’ll give you a straight answer on that one.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Are you speaking in a authoritarian voice right now, Senator Brown from Montana?

    PLEASE READ THIS AGAIN,

    “Ha, ha, ha, just one more!!

    My husband just came home and suggested that I quote directly from the Constitution of the United States for the good Senator.

    TRF, #94,

    Amendment I.

    “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

    The above quote should serve as a reminder for the Senator from Montana.

    AND TRF, if you made more comments here,then your name would be in that little widget also!”

    I believe you are dangerous, Senator…Power, implied or otherwise, must always be kept in check by the people of the United States and by the rest of the WORLD.lest we forget!!!!!

    This comment warranted the strong use of bold.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    and, stay out of my blog

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    And one more little nugget of information for you….
    use the inter-net wisely, You are a public figure!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Well, I am going to take one of those Tea breaks that STM suggested.

    Gday!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    The Resounding sounds off again.
    You speak in such generalities, Resounding, that your posts are not worth responding to, let alone reading. If you’re truly a State Senator from wherever, what are you doing on the pages of BC talking to hoi poloi? Doesn’t the State business demand your utmost attention to be wasting your time with some of us? I’d say it’s kind of beneath your rank and your office to be engaging in this slugfest. Most of us, remember, can’t even vote for you or vote you out. But perhaps you’re simply honing your rhetorical skills.

    At least OA is capable of carrying on a conversation, capable of focusing on a point or two. Your soliloquy, however, is but a ramble. So you’re not doing him a favor, Resounding, if you setting yourself up as an example. You’re only dragging him down deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole. I wouldn’t want to see a good mind go to waste.

    You’re also setting up a bad example for other regular BCers. Now Doug Hunter is picking up on your tack of speaking on behalf of others – Baronius in this particular instane – rather than let others speak for themselves. But I say, if Baronius has anything to say, he’ll say so himself. The last I’ve heard, he doesn’t need any helpers.

    So it looks like, Resounding, that you are living up to your name. Thus far, you’re nothing but an echo.

    Better luck next time.

  • http://cockroachpeople.com Rey Lopez-Calderon

    I thought news flash submission were supposed to be unbiased. Am I wrong?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #179

    Baronius,

    I hope you haven’t lost your tongue. Thus far, you’re allowing others to speak in your own voice, which makes one kind of wonder.

    But I refer you back to your #179. You say:

    “Nothing like seeing the principled progressives wishing suffering upon their fellow man.”

    If I am not mistaken, Baronius, your own God is not above wishing such things on humans if and when the situation arises. Book of Job is a perfect example.

    So what’s wrong now with adopting some such stance by some humans? Are you going to say that what’s good for God is not good enough for me?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Welcome to BC, Rey, where anything goes.

  • http://therefoundingfather.blogspot.com/ THE REFOUNDING FATHER

    Jeannie,

    I’m not advocating revoking your 1st amendment rights. I just think you should put them to better use.

    Roger,

    Really, I’m not worth responding to? Maybe instead of being so verbose in your posts, you may actually want to make a point.

    And then, for once please, tell me why I’m wrong. Because you haven’t argued a point effectively since I’ve been on here.

    If you’re really as smart as you pretend to be, prove it. Otherwise, you may want to stop putting others down. It’s a tired act.

    – THE REFOUNDING FATHER

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #199:

    “Nixon, Reagan abd Bill Clinton each played a role in bringing us to these crossroads.”

    It would have been no different, Silas, with Moe, Larry and Shemp. The history brought us to these crossroads, not particular man.

    Your appeal to some of our colleagues here to stop idolizing Reagan is also misguided. Those who look only to the past are bound to revel in past images. What you have to do my friend, to be effective, is to have them look to the future – a far harder task.

    Which isn’t to say history is unimportant, only that it will cease being the most decisive element of one’s vision.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I am not responding to public bulletins, Resounding. And for the time being, that’s how your postings come across.

  • http://therefoundingfather.blogspot.com/ THE REFOUNDING FATHER

    Roger,

    That’s a cop out and you know it.

    – THE REFOUNDING FATHER

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Not a cop-out at all. Perhaps you don’t know a difference between making a public announcement and having a conversation. In that case I can’t help you. But seriously now, I think you would find it much more effective to limit your posts to one particular addressee rather than lumping your responses to all and sundry.

  • STM

    Stop right now guys and go and make a cup of tea. Jeannie’s having one. Everyone should take a deep breath, a long sip, another deep breath …

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Unfortunately, STM, I can’t get the good stuff in KY – nothing but tea bags.

    I like the dark teas in particular, loose leaves you can steep to your heart’s content. And once you’re done, it’s an ass kicker.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Roger,

    To continue some of last nights thoughts…

    Even if they are small steps at first, you can still get where you are going. If you take a chance!

    I think I should change my name to ” The Button Pusher.”

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I don’t know, Jeannie. I’m losing confidence in that man. He and his advisors miscalculated from the get-go. He never had a mandate – many people simply did not vote. And the first order of business ought to be uniting this country and launching strong economic-recovery program – bailing out Main Street rather than Wall Street. Whatever political capital he had a year ago, it’s spent.

    Just look at the results. The people are as divided as ever. The opportunity was there, but he wasted it. So no, I don’t think he’ll recover. The momentum is running against.

  • Mark

    Doug, ‘Noxious, Baronius, et al: Is anyone here actually arguing that starvation is a social good?

    how about poverty?

    or how about war?

    where do you folks draw your lines?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Which isn’t to say it ain’t gonna happen, Jeannie. The forces of progressivism can only be postponed, not eradicated. Perhaps it wasn’t the time yet. Perhaps at the hands of another, more able executive, progress could have been made. So my judgment thus far is: he’d only slowed down the march and the voice of reaction has taken over.

    But only temporarily.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    How are you doing, Marko? I need some intellectual stimulation. Can’t get it on these pages.

  • Mark

    …or perhaps he simply is a scumbag pol who never intended to implement a progressive program

  • Mark

    (I’m well, Rog. Got back to my beloved mountains yesterday.)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Didn’t mean you, Jeannie, Cindy, and good old Silas, and the rest of you, you know who I mean.

    It’s just, Mark, there are still plenty things to discuss on another plane before I can express it in plain English – things to get clear about.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Mountains in Minnesota?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    The thing that strikes me the most is the difference between his campaign style – all energy and enthusiasm – and his flat and monotone voice while in office. Which makes me believe it was all show.

  • Mark

    I live in New Mexico, not one of the US States.

    I agree #233 — which is why my question to those on the ‘right’…I’m wondering just who it is I’m reading here.

    …Bastiat was, after all, first a pamphleteer

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    OA says: “back then when President Reagan got that wall to come down along with the soviet union.”

    Talk about revisionist history? Reagan has been made into this larger than life figure who supposedly brought down the Berlin wall and the Soviet Union apparently with one fell swoop of his hair – or simply by uttering his now famous “Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!” People must presume that Gorby, shaken to his bowels, got up, changed pants, handed over the keys to the kingdom to Yeltsin, and then personally began wielding a sledge hammer against the hated dividing line.

    Reagan and later GHWB happened to be in office coinciding with the collapse of the Soviet Union of its own weight, its corruption and its failures. They had little, if anything, to do with it.

    B

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    That’s exactly how I remember it…Reagan said Tear down this wall and Gorby did it, after he changed his pants…Nothing revsionist about it, that’s the way it happened…I was there!

    Yeah, yeah…that’s the way it happened…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #233,

    Don’t say! You’re dethroning the God of Franco.

    Anyway, just got my CDL and have to find me a part time job. Perhaps we can pick up the old threads later on. My main question(s) revolve around overcoming the obstacles on the way to attaining greater human unity – from ground up(they’re formidable)and the proper conditions for breaking human barriers as regards educational, cultural and other backgrounds. But I can’t do it without feedback. We must identify major foci points and take it from there.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Amen, Baritone. The person at the top of the list has to be Karol Wojtila. His rise to the Papacy changed the course of Eastern Europe. Even in modern times the Roman Church maintained influence. Another who is forgotten is Lech Walesa but we Americans have a propensity to take credit for things ahead of all others.

    Insofar as the commentary from folks who have been in the USSR citing the food lines, KGB, etc. there’s a point I was attempting to make that got lost in the diatribe. The bottom line is that people took care of each other under the most oppressive of situations. Yes, the system was horrific on many levels. Yes, people were not “free”. Life may have been miserable but families and friends took care of each other. While medical care wasn’t the best I argue that it was better than what folks in Alabama get today.

  • Mark

    It’s well known that Gorby was a sleeper working for the Rothchildren….Andy was there.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    You’ve got to give to Gorby one thing, though, sleeper or not: at least he was man enough to admit the system was a failure.

    That takes guts.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    The Supreme Court’s decision with regard to corporate campaign financing is quite disturbing. The 5 – 4 majority ruling opens the floodgates of cash to pour this Fall. How does that help the rank and file? It doesn’t. The corporations will spend like drunken whores and we’ll pay the price. I wonder if any member of SCOTUS has ever been charged with treason?

  • Mark

    (Congrats on the license, Rog!)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    What did you expect, Silas? We haven’t quite turned the page yet.

    In another twenty years, perhaps.

  • http://www.indyboomer46.blogspot.com Baritone

    To Refather #208

    Your caricature of what I presume you look upon as welfare queens is idiotic and absolutely unfair. Where did you grow up, out in the barren wilds of someplace like Idaho?

    It is your narrow minded stupidity and hatred that has spawned this country’s fall from grace. You sir, are an embarrassment.

    Presmuably, you actually believe that crap about welfare recipients. No doubt, there are welfare cheaters. But, then are there not big corporate cheaters? How about the bastards on Wall Street and the big banks? Aren’t there doctors and insurance companies who cheat the government out of millions through medicare/medicaid fraud? Hasn’t the government been taken for literally hundreds of billions of dollars by the “military/industrial” complex?

    For you to single out what is a small # of people who have managed to play the welfare system for what amounts to a relatively miniscule amount of money is despicable.

    Perhaps it would serve YOU to educate yourself about humanity.

    B

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It was quite a regimen, Mark. People have no idea the kind of skills involved and the responsibility these guys carry on their shoulders. And for what – measly $10-12 dollars an hour in the Commonwealth of Kentucky. It’s a ripoff.

    In the afternoon or evening perhaps.

  • Mark

    Silas, it is clear and ever clearer that our political structure is too corrupted to serve us.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Silas – Comment 240 – Have you ever even been to Alabama? WTF??? Do you think that some states in this country are third world or something? You really have to be kidding or dumber than dirt to make statements like that. Only a left coast or New England liberal would make a comment like that, which are you?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Roger,

    I think to reject him because of his posture would be a grave mistake.

    We have no where else to go right now, it certainly is not back to the GOP.

    and

    This new aberration does not reflect the will of the people,no matter how hard D.Army tries to convince us otherwise.

    The posts from that SB from M prove that!

    The big question in my mind is, where is the political party for independent thinkers?

    Oh well, this will have to do…

    see? no power.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Have you ever even been to Alabama? WTF???
    Yes.
    Do you think that some states in this country are third world or something?
    Duh. Want me to cite some?
    You really have to be kidding or dumber than dirt to make statements like that.
    From dirt I came, and to dirt I shall return. I’m in good company.
    Only a left coast or New England liberal would make a comment like that, which are you?
    Enlightened. Deal with it.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    I am a Patriot. Listen to #25

    :) Did you hear it? That’s me, Senator.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    [Edited]

    Chill, Silas.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Yeah, site some! And just don’t throw out state names, come up with something legitimate.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    I am a Patriot, and I love my country, because my country, is all I know…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Andy,

    When instructors of CDL school make $10.00 per our tops (Madisonville, KY) – and I’m talking about ex-trackers with more than 25 years of on-the-road experience – barely above what you get paid working for McDonald’s – that’s close to Third World standards.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    ex-truckers . . .

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    The ten states with the lowest percentage of people 25 years and over with a Bachelor’s Degree and the Senators who represent them:

    41. Iowa (Harkin, Grassely)
    42. Oklahoma (Inhofe, Coburn)
    43. Tennessee (Alexander, Corker)
    44. Louisiana (Landrieu, Vitter)
    45. Alabama (Sessions, Shelby)
    46. Indiana (Bayh, Lugar)
    47. Nevada (Ensign, Reid)
    48. Arkansas (Lincoln, Pryor)
    49. Mississippi (Cochran, Wicker)
    50. Kentucky (Bunning, McConnell)
    51. West Virginia (Byrd, Rockefeller)

    The ten states with the lowest percentage of people 25 years and over with a High School Diploma (states in bold are represented in the above list):

    41. Georgia
    42. New Mexico
    43. California
    44. North Carolina
    45. Arkansas
    46. Louisiana
    47. Alabama
    48. Kentucky
    49. West Virginia
    50. Texas
    51. Mississippi

    Ten worst states for business according to Forbes Magazine:

    40. Alabama
    41. Pennsylvania
    42. Hawaii
    43. Rhode Island
    44. Illinois
    45. Michigan
    46. Maine
    47. Alaska
    48. Mississippi
    49. West Virginia
    50. Louisiana

    Most religious states?

    1. Mississippi
    2. Alabama
    3. Arkansas
    4. Louisiana
    5. Tennessee
    6. South Carolina
    7. Oklahoma
    8. North Carolina
    9. Georgia
    10. Kentucky

    My conclusion? Mississippi, Alabama and Louisiana are a mess. We got a raw deal with the Louisiana Purchase and I want my money back.

  • Baronius

    Gross National Income per capita, 2007 (purchasing power parity) for lower- and middle-income countries: $4911

    State Personal Income per capita, 2007 for Kentucky: $31206

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Are you suggesting, Baronius, that $10.00 per hour is a living wage even for Kentucky? What if they have five kids which the parents refuse to send to public schools.

    So yes, the wife works too, in McDonald’s, to supplement the husband’s income.

    I’m not citing mere statistics. There are real people.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Here is the “straight poop” on what’s happening in Venezuela, and I sincerely hope that Mr. Brown will be able to defeat President Obama’s imperialist plot to instigate a coup against Chávez, who recently proclaimed that the U.S. caused the earthquake in Haiti by testing U.S. weapons off the coast of that country. According to el Presidente, the weapons were being tested prior to their use in Iran.

    It’s bad enough that the United States is plotting with Colombia, the Netherlands and even the coup government in Honduras to steal Venezuelan oil and to overwhelm Iran’s peaceful efforts to generate electrical power. However, the occupation of Haiti and causing the earthquake there just went too far! Clearly, causing a massive earthquake to steal the riches of Haiti for no better purpose than to make a big dent in the U.S. national deficit was obscene.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    $10 an hour is fine for Kentuckians. After all, they have Mitch McConnell the Senate Majority Leader working on their behalf 24 hours a day, seven days a week. With such a great man as Mitch looking out for them, who needs a livable wage?

  • http://therefoundingfather.blogspot.com/ THE REFOUNDING FATHER

    #225 Jeannie,

    Regarding the link you have the Huff Post article…that’s not going to solve anything.

    It goes further than just the banks and Wall Street. The policies of the Bush and Obama administrations and Congress really caused the Wall Street downfall.

    From FOX Business: “At the heart of the crisis are the mortgages given out willy-nilly by banks, the mortgages like the pick-a-payment loans sold by Golden West Financial (acquired by Wachovia, hastening its collapse), all part of the government’s push to have a 100% homeownership rate in this country.

    Yes, Wall Street was corrupt. Yes, Wall Street did successfully pressure the Securities and Exchange Commission in 2004 to ease up on capital reserve requirements, letting them blow out their wallets which inevitably caused American taxpayers to back them up.

    Those were all government decisions ” even JPMorgan Chase’s Jamie Dimon candidly admitted the banks needed more regulation to stop their own recklessness. A laissez faire market led to laissez faire bookkeeping, to be sure.”

    And let’s not forget the Treasury, Fannie and Freddie:

    “What you should be worried about is this: Fannie and Freddie were placed into conservatorship in the early fall of 2008 and are now hostage to the government’s every crisis move.

    And the government just lifted the caps on their Treasury borrowings to an unlimited amount. Unlimited. Meaning they can take on all sorts of rotting mortgage paper, a mountain of which taxpayers will be staring at morosely for some time to come.

    Fannie and Freddie have a combined balance sheets of more than $5 trillion, with hundreds of billions more off the balance sheet. The administration and Congress now explicitly continue to give support to the worst, most irresponsible crop of borrowers taxpayers have ever endured.

    The Obama administration is putting off any effort at reforming Fannie and Freddie; pay czar Ken Feinberg has no jurisdiction over the two companies, both of which just agreed to pay their top executives up to $6 million in compensation for 2009. In cash. Not stock, as the pay czar is forcing other companies. In cash, because the executives see these companies stock at about a buck apiece.”

    – THE REFOUNDING FATHER

  • http://www.maskedmoviesnobs.com El Bicho

    While I know it may contrast with your previous behavior, spend a moment to educate yourself on the subject. From that left-wing rag the Wall Street Journal, Why the Berlin Wall Fell

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    SB,

    Please stop posting raw links.

    Now, that actually is a rule here.

    As far as you expending all of this energy writing a personal dissertation for me, why are you?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    You’re on the right track, Resounding. At least you’re addressing a specific person in your last post. There may still be a conversation.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    He is trying to learn something here.

    I think you hit the nail on the head, Roger. This man is practicing.

  • http://therefoundingfather.blogspot.com/ THE REFOUNDING FATHER

    #245 Baritone,

    I live in a city where what I described happens every day. I have friends who tell me about the horrors of the welfare system and what’s it done to inner city kids. I visit the schools often as well. Don’t tell me I don’t know what I’m talking about. The people that don’t cheat the system are in the minority. Trust me.

    There is plenty of corruption and cheating going on in the other sectors you named. I was responding to one of those. Not all. I wasn’t for the bailouts either.

    What I believe is that the government is at fault for a lot of this. I believe they allow welfare recipients to stay on welfare because they need votes. It’s part of the progressive movement and both Dems and Republicans are involved.

    You need to help people to realize they don’t need hand-outs. It’s about changing your mindset. OA has expressed what I’m talking about in various comments here.

    Would it be hard for those people to support themselves at first? Sure. But, most things worth doing are hard. Welfare is a crutch, it’s not a long-term solution.

    I understand if some people can’t fully grasp what I’m saying. I’m not a heartless person. It’s about changing your mindset. Many people are unable to do that.

    – THE REFOUNDING FATHER

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Jeannie,

    That’s an improvement in that it’s one one one rather than public address. Don’t shy from the challenge.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Good ole Mitch, Silas, the defender of human rights.

    At least he’s true to his ideological core.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    It all doesn’t matter. We’re all gonna die in 2012 except for the elites who will be hiding in bunkers in the Heartland. In the meantime, go shopping, run up your credit cards and go to Church.

    (Roger, you know I’m kidding, right?)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    El Bicho, #264,

    Are you bitching at me? :) smile, I’m just asking..

  • Princeton Conservative

    Of course its all Bush’s fault! According to affirmative action politicians it always the white mans fault!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “You need to help people to realize they don’t need hand-outs. It’s about changing your mindset.”

    Quite true, RF. But you’ve also got to admit that jobs simply aren’t there, nor are the opportunities.

    You’re coming from the assumption that most people are lazy and they don’t care for being productive. Well, that’s where we differ.

    So definitely, people have to be brought along, but it can’t be an empty gesture. They must have opportunities so as to be able to realize their productive potential and ambition. In the present economic climate, there isn’t much of that to speak of.

    So yes, the present administration has failed, and most miserably at that. I’ll be the first to say it. But blaming the poor ain’t where it’s at. Our once prosperous society, along with our leaders and politicians, have failed them. And now we’re reaping the rewards.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    So yes, the present administration has failed, and most miserably at that. I’ll be the first to say it.

    Uh, I think there were a few others who said it first.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Darn right, Silas. I don’t plan on expiring by 2012.

    I am going to stick around to see the bitter end.

    And who is this Princeton conservative? A voice in the wilderness? And what has the affirmative action got to do with it all?

    The world gets stranger and stranger.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I don’t need the credit for being the first.
    It was but a figure of speech, you illustrious lawyer, you.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    not worth my energy..

    This man should be actually making a positive difference somewhere, but where?

    Oh, I forgot, he is too self-absorbed to help coordinate some aide to Haiti; and with all that political power…tsk tsk tsk what a waste

    :(

  • Baronius

    Princeton, I’ve already seen someone blame Bush for Coakley’s loss. See, Bush destroyed the economy so badly that people are still angry, and they’re blaming the Democrats. I’ve also seen Coakley’s loss blamed on sexism.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Has anyone here ever had a heart attack after reading a comment?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Baronius,

    not your #279

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    I’ll be back later..whew

    enough is enough, this SB from M is wearing on my nerves..

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    No, Jeannie, but I have significant attacks of diarrhea from certain comments. Calm down, my friend, it will all come out in the wash.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Has anyone here ever had a heart attack after reading a comment?

    Jeannie,

    I had a heart attack in 2003 – and I had never read a comment typed on Blogcritics. Truthfully, I have read all sorts of crap here, posted by all manner of fools, and nothing I see here would give me a heart attack. On the other hand, were I to read that I was getting back pay of $300 an article for the 133 articles I’ve gotten published here….

    I could use the cash….

  • Mark

    I agree with refer dad’s basic anti-government argument but conjecture that he is a pussy who would draw in the reigns short of having government and its violent/coercive institutions stand down generally so that the classes could deal directly.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It’s truly amazing, Baronius, how you always manage to gravitate towards oddball comments. Where is your spine?

    You ought to try, just for once, expressing your own views and fending for them rather than trying to elicit support by appealing to none such.

    You do know, for one, that the present poster holds no such view. The event in the Bay State is simply the result of Obama’s indolent administration. The people have spoken and they have enough of “make believe” administration. So why don’t you deal with reasonable positions rather than erecting strawmen?

    I refuse to believe that you’re incapable of the former.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “Hurray for dad, the, even though he’s a pussy.”

    Is that the import of your remark, Mark.

    You understand of course why I had to put it in quotes. The rules of polite conversation must take precedence.

  • Baronius

    Roger, define “none such”.

  • Mark

    …make that three cheers for the old guy

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It was sarcasm.

    “Nonesuch” I should say, or the old Dickensian phrase, “the worthy,” is what I have in mind.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Oy, this whole thing is hockin me a chinick. Does anyone understand this SCOTUS decision and its impact? We need a Constitutional Convention, folks. The decision of the Roberts Court sets in motion our demise. This is the SCOTUS way of getting around the magnitude of the vote Tuesday.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “A dad.” “A pussy.” But what’s the third?

    Again, mind the quotation marks, as befits decorum.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Yes, Silas, it’s a setback, but only a temporary one.

    Mark had remarked earlier that our political structure is no serving us, the people.

    In plain English, they’ve just given a license to government-business collusion and perpetuating the climate of corruption.

    And don’t you think now that the newly elected Republican and all Republicans and Democrats in fact are not going to be influenced thereby.

    So for the time being at least, Silas, don’t expect any miracles from Washington.

  • Mark

    …Silas, the inmates grow visibly anxious anticipating the line: “We want our revolution…NOW”

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    not serving …

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    K Street pumped a record amount of dollars last year, my friends. Add the SCOTUS decision and we have a government operated by corporate interests. Forget the Democrats and Republicans. It’s time the rest of us reasonable, forward thinkers took back control of this democracy. Unfortunately it’ll never happen. I wonder if there are any job openings in Dubai?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It’s America, Silas.

    Get used to it.

  • Baronius

    Roger, I always try to offer a smile and a nod to a new commenter or a first-time author. We don’t get many.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Why shouldn’t corporate interests have voice in the government? It’s their God-given right.

    Are you being so un-American now as to argue that corporations are not persons?

    And what goes with you belief in free speech?

    We’re a democracy, Silas. Don’t you ever forget it.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Good enough, Bar. I buy that.

  • Mark

    The way forward isn’t going back, Silas. It’s into a period of experimentation with ‘novel’ social, political and economic forms.

    A bit of anarchy is in order.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Cool remark.

    We’ve got to try new approaches, even if they fall flat on their ass.

    The past is done. Only the future holds any promise.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Silas, #296,

    I posted this for you.

    “On Thursday, Chief Justice John Roberts explained the U.S. Supreme Court’s campaign finance ruling, which eliminated restrictions on corporate funding for political candidates and causes. Roberts stated that the ruling was based on the First Amendment, in that the American government doesn’t have the right to “prohibit political speech, even if the speaker is a corporation or union.” ”

    So, after taking two aspirin and reading your last comment, I read this!

    Who seated Roberts?, big B that’s
    who!….and I’m not talking about G W.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Ruvy,

    I don’t read comments.

    No wonder you never answer me! :)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Which is to say that corporations, and yes, unions too, have the status of full-fledged persons.

    Amazing!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    The constitution was written to protect the individuals rights! Not big conglomerates!
    AND,
    Whatever you think of unions, this goes way too far.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Is this the courts trying to play a balancing act with O ?

  • Mark

    as in, the economic elite (those who own the Court) positioning itself to roll back any new government regulation?

    I’d give that the big thumbs up

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    So how come the libertarians don’t object

    I’d seem to me this decision does violence to their concept of persons.

    Where is Dave Nalle when you really need him?

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    See, Jeannie, I have little or no respect for John Roberts. He’s a textbook example of a man who has self loathing issues and if you do your research you’ll get exactly what I’m referring to. Hint: Ginsburg, Sotomayor, Roberts and the former Justice Breyer have more in common with each other than not.

    I do respect the institution and believe if we are to survive as a nation, SCOTUS must be protected. We just need to clean house. Now to Roger…

    Why shouldn’t corporate interests have voice in the government? It’s their God-given right.
    Leave God out of it, He left us long ago. Corporate institutions are killing us and yet we still buy the bullshit they throw at us via television.

    Are you being so un-American now as to argue that corporations are not persons?
    Well report me to Joe McCarthy. Corporations are the product of people who are assholes.

    And what goes with you belief in free speech?
    Nothing in life is free. Even our speech.

    We’re a democracy, Silas. Don’t you ever forget it.
    The only democratic decision we make these days is, paper or plastic?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Gosh, Silas. I was speaking tongue in cheek. I thought you you knew better.

  • Baronius

    Silas, I know you like campaign finance restrictions, but how can they possibly be constitutional? By what right can I be allowed to speak personally, but be prevented from speaking as part of a group (including union, party, and corporation)?

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Now, Baronius, there’s a whole new spin on the expression ‘money talks’…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    For the simple reason – one person, one vote.

    There is no constitutional basis for regarding corporations or unions as persons. That’s legal fiction.

    Another word for it – they’re aggregates and as such, they distort and pervert the democratic process.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Great comment, Dreadful.

  • Baronius

    No one gave Tom Paine or Ben Franklin a printing press for free.

    (OK, maybe someone did. I’m too lazy to look it up. But you know what I mean.)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I just wonder, Baronius. Why you’re so keen on preserving the lobbying as part of the political process.

    Don’t you think our elected officials have trouble enough to represent their constituents and do what they deem best for the country without being burdened by extra pressure from lobbying groups?

    For all your seeming approval of the democratic process, it’s seem to me that you’re quite content to see it perverted.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    A printing press is fine. It’s freedom of the press and the right to express opinion to influence the public. But neither corporations or unions are public, meaning: rightfully entitled to a vote.

    And how does that oblige the printer or the editor to not to speak with their own voice? Or are they supposed to now, because of their financial backers, to be but a mouthpiece? Either way, your far-fetched analogy doesn’t compute.

    I know you addressed this remark to Dreadful, but speaking for myself, no, I don’t know what you mean.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Gosh, Silas. I was speaking tongue in cheek. I thought you you knew better.

    I knew that. It’s just I want to clarify your remarks for any Alabamans in the room.

    Baronius, you are kidding, right? If there’s anything that SHOULD be regulated it is the playing field in which politics are executed. While I am for the union concept, I am vehemently opposed to the unionization of any person in the employ of the government at any level.

    I say we repossess every building on K Street and convert them into government housing for members of Congress. After that we should take all the members in both Houses, lock them in the Rotunda like Cardinals in a Conclave and not let them out until they finish OUR work.

    Besides, Baronius, in a decade our currency will be worthless. We’re headed to a global currency thanks to the good ol’ US Treasury and the lobbyists who bribe them.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    A printing press is fine. It’s freedom of the press and the right to express opinion to influence the public.

    Anyone who believes we have freedom of the press in the US is delusional. We haven’t had it since the advent of advertisers. Madison Avenue dictates the consumer and the press. Wall Street, in a gay marriage with Madison Avenue, controls the currency and the government. Freedom’s just another word for delusion these days.

    No one gave Tom Paine or Ben Franklin a printing press for free.

    They had balls. We haven’t had them since.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Silas, Corporate institutions are killing us and yet we still buy the bullshit they throw at us via television. Yes, I agree. However, the same can (and should be) said of unions. What, if any, distinctions do you think should be made between the unions and for-profit corporations?

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I was stating the principle, for Baronius’s sake, not it’s sorry rendition.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    None as far as contributions to the political process is concerned. And Silas should agree because he’s an equitable man.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Jon Sobel wrote an article about the need of the people to demand a second constitutional convention. I looked through the archives and can’t find it…wish I knew the exact title!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    You can address him directly, Jeannie, through the email.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Silas, #309,

    Tell me again, why you voted for Brown…I want to understand what is motivating people to want to return to the GOP!

    I know Sotomayor didn’t vote for this happy horse____T!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    yes, Roger!

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    What, if any, distinctions do you think should be made between the unions and for-profit corporations?

    There are no distinctions. Unions are big business. The dues paid by members in good faith go to make Union leaders fat and influential. As a matter of fact there’s virtually no difference between Union leadership and the media-clergy (Roberston, the late Falwell, Swaggert and Mother Angelica). They’re all snake oil salesmen selling hope to the hopeless and/or clueless.

    If we had an effective government in place which laid out the ground rules, got out of the way and just took on a referee role we’d be good.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Silas,

    That depends on the union!

    You cannot compare the teachers or nurses union with the American Medical ASS or the Bar ASS!

    watch someone try to say the AMA is not a union.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    In fact, where is everyone tonight?

    Not that I don’t consider you all great company! :)

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    A retraction. In a previous comment I grouped Justice Breyer in with three other justices. I meant to say former Justice Souter.

  • STM

    Jeannie, because the number of public holidays on top of the usual vacation allowance adds up, and I work shift work and weekends too, I get nearly 7 weeks holiday a year.

    However, I chose to cash in two weeks of that as a bonus just before Christmas, which means I still get nearly five weeks (works out about four weeks and four days.)

    Plus 10 weeks’ long service leave for every 10 years of employment with a company.

    It’s pretty generous in most industries, and it’s legislated at a minimum, as are our working conditions and pay.

    The minimum wage here is about $15 ($US14) an hour … still not enough in my book but then on top of that, people get penalty rates for working nights and evenings and weekends, plus double time or triple tim for working sundays and public holidays.

    It’s why we don’t have a tipping culture. People in the service industries, who are mostly young people anyway, get paid pretry well.

    I only half joke when I describe this place as a workers’ paradise.

    Employers are very generous here because they have to be but have also realised that wage trade offs for higher production and good holiday periods = happy workforces = profits.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Jannie, with all due respect, Teachers Union leadership is an enemy to quality education. The only reason that they are not to blame for the completely inadequate education system we have is because that distinction belongs to detached parents who are too busy to worry about that which is important.

    Well, folks, I am outta here! Have a pleasant evening.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    I think I better mosey along now…If Dave has an answer for my question for him, this new atrocity of justice done knocked it out of the water!!!!

    nite all :(

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    OH man! I was almost gone!
    Now, I have to think!

    and you know how …

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    STM,

    Your comment is reading like an algebra problem and I am mathematically challenged!
    Sorry! I’ll try in morning to understand you.:(

    and don’t any of you blame public school or my ( union president)husband! I went to a Catholic School..where the rosary was more important than math!

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    If you are against the SCOTUS ruling today, please consider SaveDemocracy.net’s petition. Stop the SCOTUS 5 from judicial activism!

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    … I went to a Catholic School..where the rosary was more important than math!

    I went to Catholic school as well but personal accountability and civic duty were as IMPORTANT as Math!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Silas, #332,

    That was a hit and run! We will talk tomorrow..

    :(

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    bad link

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Silas, 337

    What?

    and the link to that petition is bad

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Praying is not a civic duty.

  • STM

    Jeannie, I’m just explaining how it’s possible for people to have good periods of paid vacation, earn good money on a base rate, be compensated for working nights, weekends and public holidays, to have governments legislate for good pay and conditions, and for corporations and small businesses to understand that a happy workforce upping productivity for more pay and better work conditions can = profits.

    We never went into recession in this country and the standard of living is the same as the US.

    Just goes to show you that all these things can be done … even with a universal healthcare system.

    I think sometimes Americans are blinkered on this stuff because they don’t understand much about how it works elsewhere.

    I get the feeling sometimes there’s a view that if it wasn’t thought of or invented in America, it can’t be any good.

    Simply not the case.

    Revenue streams are pretty much back to normal for most businesses in this country, and unemployment is only around 6 per cent, which is low compared to other developed nations.

    Nothing’s ever perfect … but we do try.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Jon Sobel wrote an article about the need of the people to demand a second constitutional convention. I looked through the archives and can’t find it…

    Not Jon Sobel, Jeannie. You’re thinking of every article Joel Hirschhorn ever wrote.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    STM, after the decision by SCOTUS today with regard to the friendly takeover of the United States Federal Government, I think I’ve arrived at the precipice. Unless we wake up before November, this nation is no more.

    Five Justices were confirmed by the Senate in a time when so called judicial activism was frowned upon. The conservative members of SCOTUS sold our souls to the highest bidder. In effect, SCOTUS has set the stage for the day when the movie Idiocracy all of a sudden IS very prophetic.

    Within 24 months you will see members of Congress wearing jackets emblazoned with their sponsors. It will make NASCAR look like a tent revival in comparison. By the 2012 Presidential Elections we’re going to see Barack Obama brought to you by Fanta Grape Soda vs. Sarah Palin brought to you by Tampax.

    It is time for political revolution. The decision by these five justices constitutes grounds for impeachment because they have not executed their sacred oaths of office. Nothing short of resignation or impeachment is in order. Pundits say it will take a decade to reverse the damage they have done today. I disagree. Unless it is changed in time for the November Elections, we might as well all prepare for the Nation’s dissolution.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    You’re finally waking up, Silas, to the utter corruption of the US government.

    It has sold out to the highest bidder.

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    f Dave has an answer for my question for him, this new atrocity of justice done knocked it out of the water!!!!

    I was busy celebrating the SC restoring free speech in America and missed your question, sorry. I’ll look around for it.

    Dave

  • http://www.republicofdave.com Dave Nalle

    The only thing you could easily get was vodka. The beer was pretty good, though, and cheap!

    There was also no shortage of queues. The running joke was that if you saw a queue you got in it, even if you had no idea what you were lining up for.

    Dave

  • STM

    Yeah, Dave, except that it wasn’t really a joke was it, mate??

    That’s why every bastard used to carry those brown cardboard briefcases (attache cases in the US??) around everywhere.

    I’ll never forget seeing that on my first day. People used to make jokes about it but there actually WAS a queue outside the GUM store.

    And the clothes … everyone wearing the same kind of clobber, and people coming up to me on the metro, without saying a word, and feeling my clothes to see what they made of.

    Bizarre.

    The Soviets’ Afghan war was on at the time so there were plenty of soldiers coming and going too. I saw lots of guuys saying goodbye to their sweethearts in a tea house near one of the railways stations … which was also the spot to buy BEER.

    I also went to a birthday party once and asked what to give as a gift: surprisingly, a carton of chiclets chewing gum was first prize, as I had access to that kind of stuff.

    You know, when you are asked for things like that, you get a pretty good sense of how hard it was for ordinary people to get normal consumer goods in the Soviet Union.

    I will say this, however: at the birthday party, which meant trekking by bus and train across Moscow with a Russian whilst keeping my mouth shut, the table was groaning with food and they had a huge ice bucket full of beer for me.

    When I asked, they said: “Better to have 100 friends than a 100 roubles”.

    And some things don’t change no matter where you are: in Moscow, to get a taxi at drivers’ shift changeover time (just like Sydney, London and New York, almost impossible for a short while) you needed to hold up three fingers, indicating the multiple of the fare we were prepared to pay … and in US dollars, of course, which meant you were in the cab and off straight away.

    I always carried a fistful of dollars with me. Amazing what you could do with ‘em and how much cachet they carried back then.

  • Roger Choate

    I wonder if Brown really plans to help “stop” the health care reform bill. He is, after all, a Massachusetts Republican which may be a far cry from a Texas Repb

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    In 1970, I marched in solidarity with the returning Vietnam Solders and other enlightened people, right down Pennsylvania Avenue in front of the WHITE HOUSE.
    WE THE PEOPLE! demanded a stop to the War!

    And… WE THE PEOPLE CAN DEMAND A STOP TO THIS SUPREME CIOURT DESCISION IN FAVOR OF CORPORATE GREED!

    The inter-net is the new street!!!

    yelling in caps!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    STM,

    This lesson is lost unless they, WAKE THE F____! UP!

    “Better to have 100 friends than a 100 roubles”.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    TWITTER, was very powerful in IRAN, but here? It’s used to call consumers to the next big sale at Wal-Mart..

    No matter if we think the same ideology or not!

    We Are The People the Constitution was written to protect!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ Jeannie Danna

    Scout Brown’s win is lost now for the GOP, The Tea Party, unless it becomes a retail outlet, A Big Bank or Insurance company, will never have a leg to stand on either!

    I cannot find the appropriate words.

  • http://ruvysroost.blogspot.com Ruvy

    Jeannie,

    You, like the Republicans celebrating Scott Brown’s victory, miss the point, which Joel Hirschhorn made rather neatly in his newest article here.

    …in our delusional democracy about the best voters can do is shift power between the two useless major political parties. Populist anger demands more than empty populist rhetoric from lying politicians of both major parties.

    Hirschhorn’s standard solution is a constitutional convention. But in fact, you need to go beyond that, and beyond getting rid of the 700 crooks at the top of the political system as well. You need to get rid of the scum who manipulate them and corporate America as well. That will take bullets rather than ballots.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    To Silas in whatever comment number that was where you listed the education levels of different states.

    Another typical liberal response.

    Somehow, the fact that you spent 4 years someplace killing brain cells makes you better than other people and makes those people that didn’t waste four years of their lives lesser people.

    Try to spin it any way you want, but I asked you to name third world states and YOU referred to education levels. YOU just proved that there really are such things as educated idiots and you’re also one of the reasons that liberals will never take over this country…

    The fact that you spent four years in school getting brainwashed by liberal assholes doesn’t make you any better than anyone else. Even though you obviously think it somehow makes you superior to other people.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Andy,

    You don’t really mean to be knocking down education, even if it is, as you call “liberal education.” “Liberal arts” is a name of a curriculum in colleges and universities – not indicative of the liberal/conservative political split but to identify a course of studies distinct from the sciences. The same for BA or BS (bachelor of arts and bachelor of science), the kind of degree yet get when you graduate. So the term of “liberal education” became politicized later on. But the point of education, especially college education, is to develop critical thinking – not to indoctrinate people but precisely the opposite, to make them capable of thinking for themselves.

    And despite Silas’s rather roundabout of dealing with the question, there is no denying that a person’s educational level often is a reliable index of the kind of wages/salaries they can command and ultimately, of their standard of living. So at the very least, there is a definite correlation, however indirect.

    I have no doubt whatever that Silas loves this country no less than you; and I’m certain you share this opinion. So why is the mere fact that you tend to disagree on a number of points makes him a lesser American or stupider?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    roundabout way of dealing with . . .

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I’m not knocking education roger, but for someone to use the education levels of a state to try and prove that it’s third world is bullshit!

    I don’t have a college education and I do just fine, my younger brother doesn’t have a college education and he make around $45 an hour…so again, I raise the bullshit flag on education level proving anything other than the level of bullshit you may be filled with! Success is more about attitude and a willingness to get off your ass than it is about education.

    And roger, you know damned well what I’m talking about when I say liberal as it deals with educaiton…you fuckers always like to play so damned stupid and twist words, I don’t even know why I bother with this place anymore!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It is interesting how Obama has become energized by the Massachusetts loss. Suddenly, he’s on an offensive, speaking against irresponsible banks and financial institutions with a strong voice – adopting the good old campaign style charged with emotion, passion and electricity. One wonders how come he’s been a sleeper for the past twelve month.

    Is this a real or manufactured passion? I tend to think the latter. He realizes now his grip is slipping. Consequently, he’s shifting gears for the campaign mode – with eyes on 2012. But in essence, he’s the same opportunist politician.

    Leopards don’t change their spots.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    But Andy, it is you who make the identification between a person’s educational level and their being a “liberal.” And while you may be right by and large, you do know it doesn’t always hold.

    Also, I didn’t speak of success, so yes, you do have a point: dumb people are aplenty, whether they’re educated or not. Still, there is a positive correlation between educational level and salaries for the population at large.

    I don’t see why you’re accusing me of twisting your words. I wasn’t aware I was doing that. All I wanted was to throw some light on the subject in hope of reaching a level of understanding. Sorry you feel like that.

  • Mark

    If Silas were to concede that he used the term ‘third world’ rhetorically would Andy be satisfied?

    stay tuned…

    Rog: But the point of education, especially college education, is to develop critical thinking – not to indoctrinate people but precisely the opposite, to make them capable of thinking for themselves.

    Yet many with the clearest most independent minds never go beyond high school

    …and many of the ‘independent’ minds with their degrees become — real estate agents.

    irony

    or maybe schools are focal points for indoctrination

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Apparently from your previous comment you believe that because I don’t hold a degree that I don’t know what liberal arts are. At least that was the inference, when in fact, it was very plain to see and understand that when I was referencing liberal as it pertains to education I was talking about the extremely liberal stances of most university educators.

    So you understand roger, just because one doesn’t have a piece of paper doesn’t necessarily make them stupid or uneducated as many liberals, Silas being one of them would like people to believe.

    The richest man in this country (Bill Gates)dropped out of college, so, no, I don’t buy that correlation between education and salary level. Again, I say, success is based on attitude and drive. Dave Thomas (Wendy’s) never gradutated HS…well, that’s not entirely true, he did get a GED years later…and look where he ended up? Ray Croc, I could go on and on…The colonel wasn’t even a colonel!

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Mark – I wouldn’t believe him if he did!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Schools is but a training ground. Indoctrination camp? Not when I was attending.

    What you do with it and the kind of use you make of it – that’s entirely up to the individual. And that comes later.

    I think you’re underestimating the importance of exposure, Mark.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    But the point of education, especially college education, is to develop critical thinking – not to indoctrinate people but precisely the opposite, to make them capable of thinking for themselves.

    Then how does power create experts and disseminate knowledge which it produced? Where is this part occurring if not in universities?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Let’s just say that Silas was making a comparative kind of statement, no?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    That’s a perversion, Cindy, institutional perversion. I was speaking in terms of what it had done for me.

    Again, you can’t knock exposure. The rest is up to the individual.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Schools is but a training ground. Indoctrination camp? Not when I was attending.

    You mean there was no big sign saying please stand in formation and march like this as we are about to fit you into the world as we ‘know’ it?

    We are looking for knowledge but there are only subtle moves away from the current indoctrination at any time. And all the flow is still along the main stream of the river.

    Do you think indoctrination comes with giant flashing lights? We are all indoctrinated. That is what enculturation is. And it is through the institutions of the culture that we are indoctrinated. As well as through contact with everyone else in the culture. That is how it’s done. The people teaching are indoctrinated. See how that works?

    I’ll put another related comment on the philosophy thread.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    368 – What it had done for you? I would put a giant wager on–that wasn’t schools that did that. That is the you you brought to the school. You took from the school the things that fed that which was already you.

  • Mark

    Good Grief, Rog! The entire study of Western Philosophy is a ‘garden path’, a sea of indoctrination that students choose and even pay to immerse themselves in.

    naive individualism is a particularly poor basis for much of anything

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    No. I suppose it has to do with your initial mindset.

    For example, if you start attending with fairly fixed and rigid ideas, you might regard anything new and different with suspicion and think you’re being indoctrinated. On the other hand, if you start with a more or less open mind, you’ll be more prone to evaluate things for yourself.

    Indeed, even those who come from more restrictive backgrounds often experience opening of mind.

    I don’t buy your argument that everything is indoctrination. The terms would be vacuous when so used. Besides, there is sufficient disparity within any given culture, often conflicting if not contradictory strains, especially in the area of values, to regard acculturation as invariably uniform and to identify it (by that very logic) with indoctrination.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Are you suggesting, Mark, that the history of Western Philosophy can’t be thought critically?

    I am a Wittgensteinian, remember.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie the button pusher

    Goodmorning!

    I crashed this computer imedeatly after posting comment…needless to say my paranioa scale flew off the charts…

    no spellchecker so here we go!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It was a crucible for me, Cindy. Anything wrong with that? We all need a crucible. So how am I contradicting myself?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie the button pusher

    Hi Cindy,

    Good to see your name. How is your weather? hope ok

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    The problem you and Mark seem to be having is that you’re objectivisng the institution.

    I’m talking about experience.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie the button pusher

    STM, #331,

    To answer your reply yesterday, all I need to say , you get a hell of a lot more vacation time and respect as a citizen than us!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie the button pusher

    This is me!

    I just changed handle.:)

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I saw a comment from you a day or two ago button pusher…we’re good…it’s nice to know that you’re not really as mean as you try to come off…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Just think on that, Cindy, Mark.

    The very fact that we can have this conversation, however we may appear to disagree, testifies to the fact that, for better or worse, we’ve been through a similar kind of grind.

    So I put this question to both of you? Is this a state of bondage, indoctrination or unfreedom or the very opposite of that?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Jeannie is never mean. She’s just passionate.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie the button pusher

    Roger, #354,

    I couln’t agree more,

    And that bidding took place long before O came into office…

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie the button pusher

    Hi Andy!

    Thank you for accepting my appoligy.

    I am on the side of the people, and we can all relate there!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    You meant #345.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie the button pusher

    I was watching C-span while waiting for computer help, and there is a way to override this extreem corporate power over our future ellections,.

    For Gods sake! no matter what we think of HOUSE DEMOCRATES right now, all I can say is,

    “Pass the bill!” don’t know HR number right now.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie the button pusher

    Oh, sorry!

    Maybe I should wait for my cousin to set this browser up, unless you don’t mind my many,many,mistakes.

    but, hate to miss anything.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie the button pusher

    Maybe I should go post on that Milly vs. Seleena thread:)

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    This is what kills me, I kvetch about education and oh God I’m Liberal. I bitch about Unions being corrupt and a fly in our political ointment and I’m Conservative. I encourage understanding the dynamics on why Muslims feel disenfranchised and I’m and I quote a sand ni***r lover. I support teaching BOTH Creationism and Evolution in our education system and I’m a citizen of Sodom or Gomorrah and should be dispatched to Uganda where right fringe American Conservatives would pay for the rope to wrap around my fat neck.

    I don’t have a college education and I do just fine, my younger brother doesn’t have a college education and he make around $45 an hour…so again, I raise the bullshit flag on education level proving anything other than the level of bullshit you may be filled with!

    Bravo! You guys succeeded without a formal education. What’s lost in the debate is that education isn’t just about what one learns in an institute of higher learning. You’ve got to provide a solid foundation beginning in nursery school. Ask Dave Nalle. He knows what I’m talking about. He sees the wholesale inadequacies in our educatiuon system and did something about it with his kids. Edcucation begins at home with parents.

    Success is more about attitude and a willingness to get off your ass than it is about education.

    And one must be educated either in a formal setting or in the school of hard knocks in order to have the drive to succeed.

    And roger, you know damned well what I’m talking about when I say liberal as it deals with educaiton…you fuckers always like to play so damned stupid and twist words…

    Word parsing has become an art unto itself. Twisting words if not a franchise owned by liberals — people with a formal education recognize this simple point.

    We’re supposed to be living in a democracy. And in doing so, democracy cannot succeed without people having a basic understanding of the governmental process at the very least. The Democrats have fed us a line of bullshit about 60 seats in the Senate. The Republicans feed us another line of bullshit about how we have to preserve this free market economy at all costs even if it means giving Bank of America billions. Yet both political parties are funded by the same special interests. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure this stuff out.

    I have been more than fair in discussing all sides of the issue. For you to even imply that I’m some liberal type from Harvard or MIT, think again. I’ve talked about the rampant racism that continues to exist in Cambridge today. When Barack Obama held his beer summit, I wrote specifically on the issue right here at BC. Being well educated doesn’t solve everything – I have never said any different. But it does provide a damn good foundation.

    Obama’s been President for a year. Nothing substantial has been accomplished. The divides are wider than ever and incumbents – not Democrats or Republicans – are desperate to maintain their respective office. It’s all spin, spin, spin.

    Polarization occurs in a society of stupid, uneducated people. Is America polarized? I rest my case.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Just because you don’t outright say it doesn’t mean you don’t infer it in the way you talk about it. To list the education levels of states as an inference that they’re third world is honestly, disgusting to me. Don’t buy a Mercedes or BMW anytime soon in this country, because they’re being made by third world morons!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Silas, I wouldn’t dream to put in any category. Gosh, I wouldn’t dream of even putting Archie in any category. Doing so only circumvents thinking. It’s nothing but a refusal to think, probably because those who so readily resort to labeling and pegging are out of resources to argue their point coherently and consistently. Indeed, even Nalle is not above resorting to this cheap trick, educated as he may be.

    It’s not just education, Silas. Education in America has become a tool, a means to an end, rather than an end itself. The whole idea is success – material success if I may be more blunt.

    That’s the root cause of our ignorance as a people. And it has more to do with our values than with anything else.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie the button pusher

    Silas,

    Im sorry, but you cannot beleave in creationism as it is being painted today.

    Today, the word “creationism” means that you do not even beleave in science. No stem cell reaserch, no global warmming, and what ever else they don’t want to beleave in. Is this, some moral high ground? NO.

    it’s just another way to hold on to the legacy I mean wealth!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Andy,

    No doubt Silas was stretching the point. But you can’t disagree now, can you, that our living standard is no longer the same what it used to be, that we’re slipping, that prosperity is no longer around the corner for most people.

    And it’s got nothing to do with the fact that you, your relatives, or anyone you know who may serve as a counterexample, makes $45.00 an hour or whatever.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Now we’re back to the stuff argument…who’s got more stuff…you lost the education argument, so now we’re back to the stuff argument.

    You LIBERALS are way to predictable!!! And very easy to categorize…

    I agree with Silas on the argument to teach both creationism/ID and Darwinism. Let people figure out how to fit the two together…or not fit them together. What are you afraid of, people are smarter than you think. That’s one of the biggest problem with liberals/progressives, you think you know what’s good for me and you really have no clue.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I don’t think that’s exactly how Silas believes in creationism, Jeannie, regardless of how it is being presented in private schools.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie the button pusher
  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I’m not sure where you live roger, but I feel prosperity right around the corner for me. And I just started my own business a little less than a year ago.

    I have dreams baby! And I have drive and ambition and I’m here to tell you that life is good! Fuck DC!

    This is America. I don’t hate the place I was born. I know I have a better chance of making it here than I would in ANY of the 35 other countries I’ve visited in my lifetime.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Ain’t it convenient, Andy, to just lump everybody as you do? You’ve said it yourself:

    “You Liberals are way too predictable and very easy to categorize.”

    Why would you want to categorize anybody? Why not have a discussion instead with a particular person, mano a mano, whomever it may be?

    Should I say that Andy is not an individual person, having distinct views of his own, or should I rather think that Andy is no different than Archie, or Cannon, or Lumpy, and any number of other people that readily come to mind?

    Which would you prefer?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie the button pusher

    Where is TRF?

    Hopefully , he is trying to help all of us right now.

    :)meant sincerly

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie the button pusher

    Andy,

    What you feel is corporate America reving up to control every election in this country.

    It will be PRESIDENT Goldman Saches in 2010, unless they still like that Shara, she has nice gammes!

    thanks Mr. Roberts!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I ain’t complaining, Andy. But we’re still having an army of unemployed, and I don’t see how that’s going change anytime soon. So my doing well or reasonably well is not a good enough reason for me to think that everything’s swell.

    Lots of people are hurting, Andy. How can I be unaware of this fact.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    I do tend to agree with those names you mentioned. Not sure if I agree with everything, but yeah, it is convenient.

    What can I tell you roger. I’m just a Jersey boy who moved to the south so I could be smarter than everyone I lived around, because we know how fucking stupid these southerners are!!!

    It’s more fun to be a button pusher, isn’t it Jeannie?

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie the button pusher

    No, Andy, It’s neccasary.

    no spell chker and I keep geting bumped off line right now. DAMN! :(

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    You can’t mean that with a straight face, Andy. I never thought Southerners any more stupid than the rest. Besides, they have a certain common sense we all can learn from.

    And as to categorizing people, the fact that you may agree with some of the people mentioned on a number of general points is not what’s at issue. Each person is individual and unique, have different experiences, understanding, and background. Each of us process the same set of facts or date in a personal and not exactly identical way – because of the very individual differences just mentioned.

    True communication and dialog is less about information or even ideas people have. It’s about persons and between persons.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie the button pusher

    I say bye to all of you..:)

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    It was in reference to the comment earlier about the Louisana Purchase and the education levels of southern states…

    I forget that people take every word literally around here…you surely seem to.

    I can usually tell when someone is being a smartass in the comments section, especially when it’s BLATANTLY obvious…it must be a special talent.

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    I don’t buy your argument that everything is indoctrination. The terms would be vacuous when so used. Besides, there is sufficient disparity within any given culture, often conflicting if not contradictory strains, especially in the area of values, to regard acculturation as invariably uniform and to identify it (by that very logic) with indoctrination.

    I am not sure what is meant by ‘everything is indoctrination’. My argument is that power indoctrinates (because it can) and indoctrination is replicated and is the web or framework we grow within. It is the dominant cultural ‘reality’–the construct that we exist within and that surrounds us. Not that ‘everything is indoctrination’. Indoctrination is not a cartoonish event. We are not put on an assembly line with open skulls and filled with standard, uniform ideas.

    The dominating culture indoctrinates within a sea of competing but subordinate cultures and perspectives. What is being indoctrinated is the dominant view. This is not to say there is only one view. Merely that other views do not hold a position of power. So, we have the Hopi Indian view (that westerners are unbalanced) which is not dominating and the American exceptionalism view, which is.

    It is sort of like this. Power is like having a megaphone. If you have a megaphone and I do not, your voice reaches the masses and mine is hardly heard (it’s marginalized). Therefore most people in the culture understand and have adopted your perspective to a large degree. So, if I have the money to buy advertising and you sit in front of a TV I am indoctrinating you with my views. This is so despite that there is plenty of room for disagreement.

  • Mark

    Rog,#373 Yes, to the extent that critical thought is taught

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I’ll be back shortly, Cindy, Mark. Before we discuss the power concept, however, I do refer you Cindy, one more time, to the last link on Foucault. I do want to postpone that aspect of the discussion until you read it first.

    As to the rest of your comment, I’ll respond shortly.

  • http://theugliestamerican.blogspot.com Andy Marsh

    Jeannie comment 400 – Don’t they already?

    Like I heard someone say yesterday, if there’s not gonna be anything stopping who finances a campaign, then just make these filthy bastards claim who gives them every dime they get. I promise you it won’t be hard to run against someone who gets all their money from big oil, or big banks, or big pharma…

    You can whine about it all you want, but it does say that congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech…pretty clear to an idiot like me. But what the hell do I know?

    I guess when you’re overeducated you can overanalyze shit too…

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Andy, #410,

    No, that is not what I understand. The way I am seeing this. Even local elections will be controled by the corps.

    Where is that website that Silas pointed out last night, Savedemocracy!

    OMG, call Helloise, I’m channeling Abby Hoafman now!

    no ofense H :)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Cindy,

    I posted some really great songs from Jackson Browne yesterday on this thread.:)

  • http://thingsalongtheway.blogspot.com/ Cindy

    Hiya there Jeannie. You remind me of a butterfly. :-)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Whith a broken…wing:(

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Well, I’m hurting my computer here..have to wait for my cousin to fix..see ya all later..again

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Alright, Cindy, Mark.

    Let me clear up first a number of possible misconception. It seems you tend to regard “education” as though it were supposed to be a kind of perfect process, and at its product as a perfect kind of product. The stress is on the word “perfect.”

    It is a process but it is far from “perfect,” whatever that might mean, although Cindy might tend to view it as something which ought to be “foolproof.” Well, nothing is foolproof, yet a process it is.

    We already bring (certain) critical faculties to the education process by the very fact that, at first at least, we tend to be skeptical of new and strange ideas. That’s the value of exposure, and how exposure tends to sharpen (in some) the critical faculties they bring into play. Any resistance to a new idea is, in a sense, some exercise of one’s critical faculties (though of course obstinate kind of resistance doesn’t!)

    We are living in a skeptical, postmodernism world, where all ideas are now under scrutiny. If that’s not exercise in critical thinking, then I don’t know what is. Hence, a standard social theory gave way to a Critical Theory, which, in turn, is subject to its own kind of criticism. And so on and so forth. Nothing is sacred, there are no sacred cows anymore, and that’s how it ought to be and how it (for some people) is. Culture gives rise to counter-culture, which itself, is subject to a counter counter-culture. So, in a sense, Mark is off the mark (ha ha) when he speaks of a course of study as being “critically thought.” It’s in the very nature of exposure to new ideas and human interchange, the very essence of true human communications and dialog, that propositions are questioned, and the provisional answers are questioned still. The Socratic method, the method of the dialog, the spirit of inquiry whereby the student and the teacher are equal participants, are the essential elements of the process. And critical thinking is the engine, the very mechanism which instills the process with life.

    Education is perhaps an unfortunate term, having to do with “forming,” as though there was such a thing as a perfect product as a result of “the forming.” But why not just say that it is a useful exercise to expose young minds to the ideas and thoughts of old, erroneous and misguided as they may be, if only for no other reason that we can’t invent the new other than by seeing the error(s) of the old.

    As to the rest of your comment, Cindy, regarding “dominant culture” and its alleged deleterious effects, I think it’s better if I address that question on the other thread. You tell me.

    I don’t wan’t to bother the BC participants with philosophical ruminations.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Real quick on the creationism/Darwin thing. I’ve said more often than not that Creationism and Evolution are quite consistent. God and science do not coexist rather they are one in the same. Regardless of how you define “God” the bottom line is we are all a part of God and God is a part of us. In that sense my thinking is quite consistent with the most fundamentalist of religious as well as the most scientific of scholars.

    In the meantime I must congratulate Barack Obama on his speech in Ohio. As I predicted, a Scott Brown victory will not be Obama’s Waterloo but his greatest defining moment. Welcome back, Barack Obama, here’s your chance — don’t let us down.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Sorry, but I don’t believe it, Silas. He’s just regrouping of loss of confidence in him.

    He shouldn’t have to wait for the occasion to suddenly come across sounding strong. That quality wasn’t there to begin with – because we would have seen it – and it isn’t there now.

    He’s just back to his campaigning mode, but as to real change, no. He ain’t got it in him, not like Robert F. Kennedy or Martin Luther King did.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    because of loss …

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    To further burst your bubble, Silas, Obama is a preacher when preaching is in order, but a preacher without conviction.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    That’s OK, Roger. We need preaching every now and then. I’m happy that he’s combative but I’m a realist. I no longer believe that the current political system has the wherewithal to do that which is necessary to foster a course correction. We’re destined to face upheaval, it’s inevitable. So, let’s bring it on. Let new leaders emerge from the rubble and lead us to the proverbial Promised Land.

    It’s time for us to move on and it pisses me off that one cannot even say “move on” because it’s synonymous with MoveOn.org. Extremism, be it Liberal or Conservative, perpetuates division and ignorance. We need to come together and work out our differences.

    P.S. I’d like to nominate Justin Trudeau to be the President of the New World Government. He’s bright, articulate and actually has a working heart.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    It would seem to be that you’re trying to atone for having voted Scott Brown into office, which is why you keep on extolling the virtues of Obama. Well, I’m neither ridden by guilt nor do I entertain any illusions.

    As to your PS comment, I think you should nominate me. To cite from the immortal Sun King, L’Etat C’Est Moi!

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Nah, I make no apology. I am proud of my vote. We need a shake up in Washington. On Tuesday Massachusetts shook it up and yesterday SCOTUS took it away. The stark reality is SCOTUS sold us to the higher bidder. Which lies the other irony — “S-T-A-R-K” — Scalia * Thomas * Alito * Roberts * Kennedy. The SCOTUS Five will go down in history as the reincarnation Chief Justice Roger Taney.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    We do need to shake up Washington, Silas, you’re right about that. But then, isn’t Obama part of the problem? Just food for thought.

    I totally agree with you about the ramifications of the SCOTUS decision. Still, I think you ought to vote for me.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Elect Roger Nowosielski (no-VO-shel-skee) 2012! Only if you make Cindy First Lady, Roger. I see it now. The Oval Office starring ROger and Cindy with Arch Conservative as Chief of Protocol and Dave Nalle as the Beave.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    I’ll be the cook…:)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Don’t forget Mark now, the top advisor. And no, I would always listen to Archie for a contrary viewpoint.

    BTW, Cindy is a cinch. You can count on that!

  • Baronius

    Silas, you’ve yet to make the argument *why* this decision is a big deal. It makes sense constitutionally, and it overturns a law that’s only been on the books for a couple of years. Most importantly, it constitutes an expansion of political free speech.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Here is a link to the Supreme Court decision which is causing so much upset. It is fairly long, but rather than rely on accounts from either “conservative” or “liberal” sources, it might be useful at least to skim it. I haven’t had an opportunity yet to do much more than that; my initial reaction is that it makes sense. The First Amendment is important, and unless it applies to unpopular positions and unpopular voices, it forfeits much of its substance. It is also useful to keep in mind that although the decision applies to for profit and non profit entities, Citizens United, the plaintiff in the case, is a nonprofit corporation.

    In any event, the discussion and the interplay among the various justices in the opinion of the court and in their various concurrences and dissents is quite interesting.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Why do we elect Presidents anyway?…The Court rules and rules for life. Even the President cannot veto this decision.

    Now, say the Supreme Court, in all of their wisdom, rules that anyone found to be wearing a silly hat, should be put to death. Do we just fold? or say, ” They know best! ”

    I’m sickened…

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    the butterfly is off!

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    Dan (Miller), thanks for the link. I am reading through the decision now. The SCOTUS 5 make compelling arguments and Justice Stevens brings a clarity to the decision in his dissent. I’ll try to cite specifics later once I wrap my mind around the decision.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Silas, I look forward to your take on the case. I could provide a couple of links to articles which I think make a lot of sense, but you should probably read the decision without looking at them first. If you want them, please let me know.

    Good luck; it’s a long decision. Do keep in mind that the first several pages are just a summary and that the opinion, concurring opinions and dissent start a bit further down.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Silas, Don’t buy any hats!

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Baronius is full of shit, and he knows it.

    He equates freedom of speech with freedom to influence elections.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Roger,

    I will find a link , or some sort of proof for you.

    The union has been good to my family.:)

  • Baronius

    Heh. Roger, you’ve been trying to pick a fight with me for a few days now.

  • http://delibernation.com Silas Kain

    He equates freedom of speech with freedom to influence elections.

    Actually, Roger, true freedom of speech should influence elections. There’s no doubt we have freedom of speech, what naturally follows is “listening”. This SCOTUS decision is quite an interesting read. Kore to follow after I take an overdose of Valium.

  • Mark

    It does contain some gems: …this Court now concludes that independent expenditures, including those made by corporations, do not give rise to corruption or the appearance of corruption. That speakers may have influence over or access to elected officials does not mean that those officials are corrupt. And the appearance of influence or access will not cause the electorate to lose faith in this democracy.

  • Arch Conservative

    Hmmmmm…..

    What’s the record for number of comments on a single thread?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Silas #440,

    This goes without saying. But it’s financing of the candidates is where we’ve got to draw the line.

    Not really, Baronius. Just trying to keep you honest. And I’m sorry for adopting (late) Bliffly’s style of challenge. Won’t happen again for a long time.

    Not quite, Archie. My own thread approaches 2000, and it ain’t likely to die out.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    What’s the record for number of comments on a single thread?

    Several thousand, Archie. There’s a Harley-Davidson one that seems to be immortal, and Roger and Cindy are still going great guns on his ‘American Pie’ article.

    Old threads never die… they just get frayed! :-)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Had to look up the definition of “frayed.” Interesting. The noun “fray” and idiom “above the fray” are derivations. And the root is “frighten away.”

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Has Bliffle moved on to the great political forum in the sky? I hadn’t heard.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I wish I knew. It’s been six months at least. He’d been on the contrary side before he vanished into thin air.

    It’s kind of depressing not knowing what happens to the person behind the pixels when the pixels are no longer.

    I’m going to have special arrangements, with Cindy perhaps, so I might get a proper wake when my time comes.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Come to think of it, Mount Olympus is not such a bad idea.

  • http://drdreadful.blogspot.com Dr Dreadful

    Now, say the Supreme Court, in all of their wisdom, rules that anyone found to be wearing a silly hat, should be put to death. Do we just fold? or say, ” They know best! “

    Jeannie, it’s not exactly specified in the Constitution, but there is a Check against the Court stepping out of line. The President and/or Congress can, theoretically, simply ignore a SCOTUS decision.

    Slippery slope? Maybe – but there are hundreds of silly laws all over the country which are ignored every day.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    The problem is – this particular decision doesn’t concern prohibition but permission.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    Doc, #447,

    Great point!

    This ruling has to be ignored!

    Where in the Constitution?

    I am really having a problem on-line today!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    446!

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    And..I wouldn’t be me, if I didn’t mention that they are still pulling people from the rubble, ALIVE!

    Also, because contributions are Tax Deductable, more people are now giving..go figure

  • Clavos

    More than a thousand, Arch…

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    #438:

    “And the appearance of influence or access will not cause the electorate to lose faith in this democracy.”

    This indeed is a gem, Mark. On what planet, exactly, do the justices reside?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Here’s a good one for you, Silas.

    On Obama’s politics of expediency.

    I must quote the last paragraph:

    Perhaps I’m being too cynical. Maybe the Obama and congressional Democrats are now ready to give up Wall Street trickle-down economics and focus on Main Street trickle-up. “There are two ideas of government,” said William Jennings Bryan at the Democratic National Convention in Chicago in 1896. “There are those who believe that you just legislate to make the well-to-do prosperous, that their prosperity will leak through on those below. The Democratic idea has been that if you legislate to make the masses prosperous their prosperity will find its way up and through every class that rests upon it.” He couldn’t have said it better.

    END OF QUOTE

    Something to think about, ain’t that so?

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    DM,

    Excerpt from LA Times article on overturning McCain-Feingold: minority decision.

    The dissenters included the three Democratic appointees: Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Stephen G. Breyer and Sonia Sotomayor. They joined a 90-page dissenting opinion written by Justice John Paul Stevens, who was appointed by President Ford, a Republican. Stevens, who will turn 90 in April, spoke in a halting voice as he read part of his dissent in the courtroom Thursday.

    He called the decision “a radical change in the law.” He predicted that the ruling would “cripple the ability of ordinary citizens, Congress and the states to adopt even limited measures to protect against corporate domination of the electoral process.”

    The decision displayed a deep division of opinion on the court about the meaning of the 1st Amendment and the freedom of speech.

    The majority said that the Constitution broadly protected discussion and debate on politics, regardless of who was paying for the speech.

    Stevens and the dissenters said that the majority was ignoring the long-understood rule that the government could limit election money from corporations, unions and others, such as foreign governments.

    “Under today’s decision, multinational corporations controlled by foreign governments” would have the same rights as Americans to spend money to tilt U.S. elections, Stevens said.

    END OF QUOTE

    DM, is there a way to access Justice Stevens’s dissenting opinion in this SCOTUS ruling?

  • STM

    Andy: “Don’t buy a Mercedes or BMW anytime soon in this country.”

    True, Andy, but not for the reasons you suugest.

    Keep Americans in a job … in this climate, buy a car built in the US.

    In fact, I’d be checking the labels on EVERYTHING to see what’s grown, produced or made in America, and what’s not.

    And I’d be buying accordingly at the moment.

    Even buying your lunch at a local diner helps keep someone in a job. Keep the money going around at home, not going around somewhere else.

    That’s my two-bob’s worth :)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    A more detailed account of the minority decision.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    At last, the full text, pdf file.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Roger, the link I posted yesterday has the whole enchilada.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I realize that now. I was thrown off by the title.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Offered without comment.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    “Unfortunately for the left, the Constitution recognizes rights that all citizens have . . .”

    Pulled from the link above, with a comment.
    Kind of perverse considering that the decision concerns the rights of corporations and other such entities, unions included. And the author presumes to be clarifying the issue on behalf of the “intelligent public.”

    I suppose he or she takes the metaphor “a good corporate citizen” – by now a long-defunct phrase – too much to heart.

    It’s a perfect argument if you’re willing to conflate legal fiction with political reality. But then again, that’s precisely what the justices have done.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Roger, judging my the author’s name and photo (and his linked bio) accompanying the article, I think there is at least a 70-30% change that “he or she” is a he.

    I did think you might find this assertion and question, in the first paragraph, interesting:

    Both the ACLU and AFL-CIO support the decision. So why are prominent liberals speaking out so vehemently against it?

    Oh well, I was probably wrong. That happens.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Why should I be guided by what AFL-CIO say. They’re are corrupt as they come. As to ACLU, I don’t know what’s their angle.

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    Roger,

    To “find interesting” and to be “guided by” are rather different. I found the support of the AFL-CIO interesting.

    The “angle” of the ACLU might be revealed by actually reading the opinion of the court as well as the concurring and dissenting opinions — for which you requested a link.

    Still, I recognize that absorbing and regurgitating pre-digested opinions is easier than coming to, articulating and supporting one’s own.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Speak for yourself.

    Certainly the link you provided in #460 can’t be what you have in mind. It’s as regurgitated as it gets, and you if you stand by it, as apparently you do, it doesn’t speak well of your own analytical powers.

    And I do thank you for enlightening me on the difference between the two words in question. The fact of the matter is, I find the ACLU stand neither surprising nor interesting. It’s rather odd that you do.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Correction: should read “AFL-CIO.”

  • http://blogcritics.org/writer/dan_miller Dan(Miller)

    No, Roger. I referred to the link in Comment #428, which you had evidently missed and requested in the last sentence of your comment #454, DM, is there a way to access Justice Stevens’s dissenting opinion in this SCOTUS ruling?

    I later offered the suggestion that reading it might assist in understanding the “angle” of the ACLU because, in your Comment #463 you said, As to ACLU, I don’t know what’s their angle. That’s why I suggested in #464 that The “angle” of the ACLU might be revealed by actually reading the opinion of the court as well as the concurring and dissenting opinions — for which you requested a link.

    I don’t “stand by” the opinions expressed in the link in #460, and did not suggest that I do; indeed, I expressly offered the link without comment.

    As to “Speak for yourself,” I do, and for no one else.

    Dan(Miller)

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    I suppose then that the article linked to #460 was posted for no particular reason. Yet, it is with reference to that particular article that the ACLU and the AFL-CIO support of the SCOTUS decision was raised by you as a presumed object of interest. No matter.

    As for understanding the ACLU position, it was clear from the get-go that SCOTUS decision would shed the light.

    I’m glad that we’ve finally got that straight.

  • http://jeanniedanna.wordpress.com/ jeannie danna

    STM, #455,

    Maybe they will listen to you.

    Even buying your lunch at a local diner helps keep someone in a job. Keep the money going around at home, not going around somewhere else.

    This is what the people I am trying to shake up right now don’t want to hear!

    The big corporations,that already hide their money off-shore to avoid paying taxes, will now buy all the of the politicians and place them where they want, in-order to further protect their own interests.

    It will be, screw you if you don’t like it! You, as the individual or small business wont have a leg to stand on!

    While, the the Teachers and other professional unions represent people that live in America and pay all of their taxes!

    Gday, mate :)

  • Bliffle

    No, Bliffle is hale and hearty, but still convinced that BC is shallow and still cursed by poor citations and weak arguments.

  • http://takeitorleaveit.typepad.com/ roger nowosielski

    Bliffle,

    Welcome back, I really mean it. I, for one, do miss your caustic remarks. Sometimes, they’re badly needed.

    I’m sure glad you’re still kicking and going strong.

  • STM

    G’day Bliff … yes, I was wondering too. Good to see you back.

  • STM

    Thanks Jeannie.

    It really is true. I urge my wife to check all the labels at the supermarket or the fruit shop, and to buy anything that’s made or produced in Australia or New Zealand – Australia preferably.

    We help our American breathren out by buying fruit from the US in the off season (our seasons are the exact opposite here), but that’s only good while our dollar remains close to parity with the US dollar. If it starts to fall away again and the US dollar rises thanks to the machinations of the financial markets, American exporters will suffer as they will lose their markets.

    It means cherries twice a year though … Aussie ones around Christmas time, American ones in mid-winter. Perfect.

    The truth is, all the talk of “king dollar” in the US is a nonsense. It strips America’s export markets away as importers globally go looking for cheaper and better alternatives.

    Americans have to get back to what they’re good at: making stuff and selling it at a profit, not shuffling bits of paper about (or clicking a mouse) on Wall Street.

    The only people who get rich doing the latter are the shysters who almost brought the global economy to the brink of collapse … and they get rich at our expense, of course.

  • zingzing

    ahh, scott brown, a true tea party victory. truly, this is the day the tea party gains legitima—-WHHHAAAAAAAAA? mother fucker voted for what the what now? damn…