Decide for yourself if research constitutes proof the Whole Body Vibration training is viable for the general population.
The Power Plate people aren’t the only crew out there trying to bamboozle the public into thinking that Whole Body Vibration (WBV) training offers a viable alternative to real exercise, as the folks at Hypergravity are hyperventilating over their vibrating platform.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments26 - Derek Daniel
I have a feeling short of "jesus" himself multiplying you into 20 people and dividing you into a control group and a subject group you are not going to carefully examine the differences in this technology. That is great! Hopefully many people follow your lead and people like myself who actually read and research will continue to succeed.
That's enough for me. I laid out my case pretty thoroughly for everyone to read.
GOOD LUCK
P.S I train/trained 14 pro athletes this year and sent them to their respective camps with personal best in Power Cleans, and a battery of flexibility tests. I also trained 8 mom's, 16 dad's, and 2 grandmom's each one has had steady improvement in strength and flexibility and subjectively reported to feel great. I added Vibraflex WBV to their programs at the beggining of each.
See ya
27 - Derek Daniel
no you misread the Bosco study again. It clearly says they participated in sport as they were in season.
WOW
28 - Derek Daniel
chronic WBV in the studies you elude to are 6-8 hrs long in a workplace setting. again you are wrong and making wild assumptions.
Also the studies on the site AGAIN are indpendent. SO what that they post them on the site. see below the difference between independent ans sponsored
Also, most studies are short term in nature 8-16 weeks. Again you are wrong in your assumption
29 - Derek Daniel
You are starting to look like the "huckster" as you dig in to not make yourself look goofy
30 - Derek Daniel
you are on "tilt" and just pulling things out of no where, next you are going to link the Tobacco companies to these poor bastards at Vibraflex trying to market a product that could help many people. i didnt mind and agreed when you went after the BS at Powerplate and Hypergravity but you never gave an inch that these products could be different from one that has a different speed and motion and that meant i didnt know what I am doing when I bought it and the results I have seen were random...I cant take that sitting down, my man.
If this were a game, i would be sending in the 4th quarter subs at this point so let me just say GOOD GAME COACH
31 - sal m
derek:
keep talking and i'll keep correcting you...you really have no idea what you are talking about.
the bosco study is fatally flawed because in the study itself the control group did nothing immediately preceeding their jump test while the other group was active immediately preceeding their jump test. this is a flawed study, and a study that was designed to illicit positive results.
and these studies are NOT chronic as bosco himself concludes that studies need to be performed in order to study the chronic effects of WBV. 8-16 weeks is not long term.
you could at least read the entire study before you comment on it.
and please provide your success stories for us. what results?
32 - Derek Daniel
1. You are very far from correcting me in anything my friend
2. All subjects in the Cardinale/Bosco were given "25 minute ergometer warm up"
2.5 - What motivation does Bosco have to try to illicit postive results? he has no stake in the success or failure of any of his research as he is INDEPENDENT.
3. Most research ends with comments such as "more research needs to be performed" etc...it allows for expansion on their research. Instead focus on the significant statistical improivements which he clearly outlines. You see they MATHEMATICALLY prove things instead of just trying to sound really confident like certain Blog Hosts.
4. I have read allof them and you should too instead of the goofy ones on the Powerplate site.
Listen, dont decide something and then try to find facts for your decision. First Find facts and then decide. I am offering lots of info that you are only responding to with minor points, take that into consideration and soften your stance on this particular group. As I said you were right abou the others.
33 - Derek Daniel
bosco warm up was actually 25 watts for 5 minutes ALL subjects. not 25 mins
34 - BMac
Sal,
I just have two questions. What is your educational background? Where did you earn your degrees and in what area of study?
Thanks for your time?
35 - LLoyd Shaw
My main problem is that companies like Vibra-Flex etc do not disclose before their research, that Pivitol and Lineal machines are opposites of each other. They do NOT do the same thing , and it reeks of bad marketing to not even mention that important point.
Or why wouldnt they ?
They just forgot ?
And all the researh today says we know bugger all about Myotatic reflexes , involuntary reflexes and fight or flight responses in humans.
And we arent going to learn much from testing 19yr old uni students over a 6 week period looking at vertical jump hight ?.
The machines built today are only the beginning tools to understand how this could effect real peoples lives and a large scale population.
I have said it before , there is no place for "marketers" in such a new industry with so much research to do before we can even take ourselves seriously.
Let alone the public.
I will make a promise to Sal M right here and now. I only created my company to solve a problem. Not to rip people off in any manor. Or i would still be Power-Plates Product Manager and being paid lots to keep my mouth shut.
I want a chance to significantly drop the rate of Type 2 Dia / septic ulsers and amputations as a direct result of obesity. Over 25% of my customers are sponsored and do not pay for their treatment. You can check on that if you want.
And i dont sell machines to the public. Ever.
Vibration training has promise , but it can never be explored or developed while we have companys that are so caught up on sales as to say anything to get one.
I hope one day Sal M can blog here , saying he was wrong about some of us. And that we did help.
36 - HYPERGRAVITY
I've watched Sal's Healthy Skeptic blog with much amusement as he attacks the concept of Whole Body Vibration and any researcher who has conducted a study that is not up to Sal's standards. (When did he become the great arbiter of such things anyway? When he signed on as a coach in a New Jersey high school?) As Hypergravity's sales manager, I feel I have to speak up, since he has come out of nowhere and started attacking our company.
Sal, may I ask, what did we ever do to you?
First of all, repeatedly ridiculing spelling mistakes on our old website is in such poor taste. The gentleman who wrote the text on the old site is over 70 years old and speaks 7 languages, of which, English is his fifth. Call me when you've mastered even 2 languages, and then we'll discuss spelling errors.
It is true that we had put together a page that contained links to many studies that were performed with Whole Body Vibration platforms, but nowhere did we state an opinion on them. We merely have tried to show the public what studies are out there, warts and all. Yes there are good studies. Yes there are bad studies. Some of the studies, such as those performed by Galileo/Vibraflex are conducted on pivotal vibration devices which affect the body differently than the linear vibration units we make. They are not better or worse, they're only different. In fact, we only made reference to a couple studies on our Benefits page. I remember seeing one of them mentioned by a doctor on your previous page but I don't think you ever answered him/her and I don't have time to sift through the 100+ responses to check, so here it is again:
Effect of vibratory stimulation training on maximal force and flexibility.
Journal of Sports Science 1994 Dec;12(6):561-6.
Issurin VB, Liebermann DG, Tenenbaum G.
Ribstein Centre for Research and Sport Medicine Sciences, Wingate Institute, Wingate Post, Israel.
In this study, we investigated a new method of training for maximal strength and flexibility, which included exertion with superimposed vibration (vibratory stimulation, VS) on target muscles. Twenty-eight male athletes were divided into three groups, and trained three times a week for 3 weeks in one of the following conditions: (A) conventional exercises for strength of the arms and VS stretching exercises for the legs; (B) VS strength exercises for the arms and conventional stretching exercises for the legs; (C) irrelevant training (control group). The vibration was applied at 44 Hz while its amplitude was 3 mm. The effect of training was evaluated by means of isotonic maximal force, heel-to-heel length in the two-leg split across, and flex-and-reach test for body flexion. The VS strength training yielded an average increase in isotonic maximal strength of 49.8%, compared with an average gain of 16% with conventional training, while no gain was observed for the control group. The VS flexibility training resulted in an average gain in the legs split of 14.5 cm compared with 4.1 cm for the conventional training and 2 cm for the control groups, respectively. The ANOVA revealed significant pre-post training effects and an interaction between pre-post training and 'treatment' effects (P < 0.001) for the isotonic maximal force and both flexibility tests. It was concluded that superimposed vibrations applied for short periods allow for increased gains in maximal strength and flexibility.
This is a well designed study conducted not on the elderly but on 28 young, healthy, males. They even used a control group. (I'm sure it was because they didn't want to incur the wrath of Sal the great research design guru) Anyway, let's compare:
GROUP. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .ISOTONIC MAXIMAL STRENGTH
Vibration Training . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . + 49.8%
Conventional Training. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . + 16%
Control Group . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . + 0%
GROUP . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . LEG SPLIT FLEXIBILITY
Vibration Training . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . + 14.5 cm
Conventional Training . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . + 4.1 cm
Control Group. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . + 2 cm
37 - HYPERGRAVITY
Now, let me make a big disclaimer. Although this research may strongly support the great potential that WBV has as a form of exercise, we are not trying to say (and never will say) that this should replace conventional exercise. Far from it! The more active people are, the better. The absolute fact that nobody can argue with is that WBV training makes your muscles do work. Period. And, if WBV is something that can motivate someone to get off the couch and get active again, GREAT!
Like I said, I have been following this blog for a while and I have come to admire Lloyd's candor from afar. He seems to be an honorable guy with a genuine interest in advancing public knowledge about WBV, while exposing the paranoid speculation (and often outright lies) of some in this industry who are less than scrupulous. He understands, as I do, that there is a need for much more research into the various applications of WBV, but let's make no mistake: there ARE documented health benefits to using WBV.
I know because I hear about them first-hand. Yes, my job is to sell a product, but I love what I do because it's a product I can believe in and I can honestly say I go to sleep at night knowing I helped people. Regardless of what any skeptics can say against a handful of Whole Body Vibration studies, I continue to get calls from people who love to tell me how their Hypergravity is helping them lose weight, or tone up, or relieve their fibromyalgia, or lower their blood pressure, or eliminate their plantar fasciitis, or just simply regain enough energy to play a full 18 holes of golf, and I could go on for hours! These people were SICK AND TIRED of being SICK AND TIRED because all their doctors knew to do was prescribe another pill to mask their symptoms instead of solve their problems! You have no idea how incredibly grateful they are. We become like part of their family. They send cards at Christmas or Hanukkah, and invite us to their kid's birthday parties. And we go!
And, Sal, no matter how much you try to dismantle other people's research, you can never--and I mean NEVER--take away what we have given to these people. Just because it is anecdotal, doesn't make it less real, and I DARE you to tell these mothers, fathers and grandparents that their stories--their struggles and their triumphs--are worthless and have no meaning! I dare you.
Christopher
38 - HYPERGRAVITY
P.S. Let's remember you STILL have never even tried one of these machines yourself.
39 - Derek Daniel
well said Mr or Mrs. Hypergravity...except that the weight loss claim is a streeeetttttccccchhhh for WBV...watch out for making claims that are unsubstantiated, that is what gets you all in trouble but if people like your product and it helps them, god bless them and good luck.
I am deleting this from my Blog list. I will look for others which are more helpful in assessing and evaluatiing these claims and more important for me discussing techniques on how to use.
I just wanted to see if the blog host had a final response to any of what I posted.
Also, The pivotal and straight up down motion was compared and evaluated in a BYU study posted on the Powerplate site and showed an advantage in favor of the pivotal (more quad, ham, and gluteal activation) so I have no idea why it is on the PP site and not on the Vibraflex/Galileo site.
Derek
40 - HYPERGRAVITY
I should remind everyone that these are not my claims, these are simply people's testimonials to me. I don't have any control or influence over what they say. I'm just telling you what I was told.
For instance, here's a weight loss claim by Judy Caspe, a lady who runs a medspa and has her own radio program called Spa Talk LA. She failed to cut any calories and lost 6 pounds using nothing but Hypergravity for 12-15 minutes every other day. Sher also had this to say: "The machine is great, it does provide the missing exercise in my life! My body wants to use the machine now. I do not dread exercising now, I look forward to it." Read for yourself...
This is exactly what I'm talking about--we are finally starting to take the drudgery out of fitness!
Christopher
41 - BMac
I am still waiting on the expert to respond to post #34.
42 - Dan Fivey
Hi,
I hope you are well and healthy.
I have attached some studies that may interest you: these where done on the VibroGym when it was called the Powerplate (please note the Powerplate is now a completely different machine). The studies are on an ACL injury repair and Fibromyalgia.
These studies show that Vibration Therapy/Training is valid way of exercising and has many benefits.
Some more studies are available on this site.
The research on this page also shows that the VibroGym is gaining credibility and is very superior to its many copies and imitations. I am keen to read about your thoughts about these studies.
The VibroGym is now available in over 70 locations in Australia and NZ!
Our certified trainers at these locations are helping clients define goals and are creating programs that will help them achieve those goals. The VibroGym is available at Gyms, Personal Training Studios, Physio's, Chiropractors, Beauty Salons, Day Spa's and Weight Loss Centres.
A VibroGym session takes just 15 minutes, three times a week to strengthen, tone and revitalize your body. And at only $10-20 per session, VibroGym is affordable and it works. Some of these centres are seeing over 30 people a day on their machine!
The VibroGym is helping people lose weight, tone up, increasing their flexibility, lose cellulite, recover from an injury, decreasing back pain, increasing balance and stability and gain strength. Users include people who are over 100kg, MS sufferers, wheelchair users, Cystic Fibrosis sufferers, athletes, celebs, sports teams, Parkinsons sufferers, diabetics, fibromyalgia sufferers, the elderly and overweight children.
The VibroGym has appeared in UltraFit Magazine, Womens Health and Fitness, Inside Sport, Alpha Magazine, The Age, The Sun Herald and will feature in Womens Weekly, Cleo and Cosmo soon.
Some new exciting studies will be coming from Universities in Australia and NZ in the future, they have just started and we expect the results to be very promising.
I have some new testimonials that you may like to read and I hope you enjoy reading them and I look forward to your comments.
Kind regards
Dan Fivey
[Personal contact info deleted]
43 - steve m
Has any-one out there had a negative expierience using WBV therapy?
44 - Andreas
Vibration training is not the ultimate training tool, as some people or companies want us to believe. It is just a new training methodology that has a partial beneficial influence in enhancing performance. To combine training methods will always have the best results and certainly vibration training could have a small contribution to this. View a scientific approach which is different than the majority out there here
45 - mark
If I may broaden this conversation to some general truths: 1/Scientific studies are almost always flawed. Sometimes they're fraudulent, sometimes not. Sometimes the flaws are immediately apparent, sometimes it takes years to discover them. Acting on scientific studies only will rarely get you the desired results. 2/Anecdotal evidence is merely someone else's story. If you trust the party, one story may be convincing, if the parties are unknown to you, no number of stories is satisfactory. 3/ subjective evidence is your own story. If scientific and/or anecdotal evidence conflicts with your own experience, you -might- be wrong,(kidding yourself), but just as likely, the science just hasn't caught up with the reality...My subjective reality your anecdote. Science takes money, cooperation, ethics, expertise. Accurate subjectivity requires me paying attention to myself; personal science, if you will. If I lie, I lie to myself. Sal, you may have every traditionally scientific reason in the world to never try a vibration machine, but it isn't -your- science until you're the subject and the researcher. Trust noone. Do it yourself. Is everything in your life according to research you've read? You say you know enough about it, and don't need to find out for yourself. That in itself is a subjective decision, not scientific. There's nothing more satisfying than hearing a thousand opinions on a subject while knowing that your are the only one who was actually -there-. Be that person.
46 - katarina
This is a second day of my inquiry after information on WBV platform, because it was after the third week of rehab on the platform, when I finally realised that the unnatural biting pain (diffrent one from normal sore muscels after harder workouts, or let say three days of skiing on the beginning of the season) in neck muscles, back muscles pain (especially trapesius), arms muscles and the elbow joint comes from exercises on such a platform. I think, it can not be from other exercices that I do within my rehab, or from what I do by myself at home, because the problems emmerged when I started to use the platform after it was installed in rehab center (in Bremen/Germany) just a month ago or so. I did several exercises on platform, but I think that the biggest culprit is particularly one exercise. The squat on one leg, with tighten and stretched arms, with the center of gravity almost out of the platform. The squat (with other platform exercises) I did 2 times per week in 3 series, each 2 minutes, 30 seconds pause in between, at 27Hz. As I already mentioned, I found the pain unnatural. The recovery also took unnaturaly long time, two weeks. It never happend to me before, and I am used to physical training and before the accident I did several sports regularly. My physiotherapist said that I had weeker back muscles, OK, could be, however, I am suspicious now, though I started with enthusiasm. My mind says to me, that it can not be good to vibrate the stretched and tighten muscles, relaxed OK, it's like a massage, but tighten ones. Now, when I start to be more critical, I must say, the vibrations of my whole body, seems to me not pleasant at all. I feel rather tired of those vibrations, and shaken. I decided not to continue to use the platform. First, I would like to understand the physiological process of muscles, tendons... under the impact of vibrations, so I have lot to do to find it out. I will start with papers from 1st American Conference on Human Vibration, in library. Some themes sounds interesting to me.
If someone will have some useful information to my case, I'll be thankfull.
K.
47 - Lloyd Shaw Vibra-Train
Yes...I have some useful information.
NEVER DO ONE LEGGED SQUATS ON A VIBRATION PLATFORM.
I banned them over 2 years ago.
The rebalancing responses caused during this pose creates un-natural/shearing pressure on the knee/hip flexor/lower back regions ( shearing is an inherent risk where vibrations and bio-machinaics are involved ).
It will eventually seperate the joints .
The one legged squat is recommended for elite athletes only , for short term ( 3 weeks ) during build up to an event .
Not physio.
For those of you who doubt this, watch the pose being held from behind. With 10 secs the standing leg will turn inwards . And the hip flexor will twist the opposite direction to counter the weight shift.
Unfortunatly your physio will be following a generic chart sold with the machine.
48 - Katarina
Thanks a lot for the fast response Lloyd.
I am very glad to have this information.
Katarina
49 - HYPERGRAVITY
Hi everyone,
I'm announcing my resignation from Hypergravity.
I'm not going to discuss the circumstances surrounding my decision to leave, but suffice it to say I left of my own free will for reasons of conscience.
From now on when I post on this board it will be under my own name.
Best regards,
Christopher
50 - Giovanni Ciriani
Bosco had a PhD in Sports Medicine and did 30 years of studies on many different strength-development techniques. He worked with olympic athletes and teams etc.
51 - D Jones
I have read in detail many of the studies mentioned. Some of these were not well performed, but Sols critics of the osteoporosis paper is not justified. The control group was also taking a recognised anti-osteoporotic drug so bone mineral density might under these cicunmstances not be enhanced with WBV, A recognised (albeit subjective) method was used to asses pain. There are many instances where patients subjective assessment is the only way to indicate imprvement or not. I think that many of Sols comments are in fact very misleading. What is cler however that WBV cannot replace training as the cardio vascular system is not trained. So the WBV does not replace other forms of training at all.
52 - Lloyd Shaw
It is only designed for resistance type training. Movement and pressure. Thats all , if anyone has mislead you into thinking it's cardio , they where wrong to do so.
53 - Suharsh
I have read this blog and have to unfortunately admit that it has generated more questions than answers that I had hoped for.
It turns out that PowerPlate head office is just couple of miles from my apartment. I actually went there and tried it out for 15 - 20 minutes and it did feel good. This is not a conclusion though. One thing for sure that I got out of this discussion is that it is not worth taking a risk of $ 2k - $9k for these machines. I know those vibration AB Belts don't work but if I were to try it out, I was risking only $45, what the heck, let's try it. But not with the money that the WBV machines are charging. I really don't know if they cost that much, but if they really want to market them to the masses then the prices have to come down.
My wife had a good suggestion - she said that join a fitness center that has one of these. Unfortunately the couple of them that I called up don't have it. One that has is about an 1 hour's drive from my place :(
I am in Buffalo Grove, IL - anyone knows any fitness centers / studios around who have the WBV's?
To add to all this confusion there seem to be so many of the WBV's out there, each claiming that the other's are clones or substandard! I guess only time will tell if the WBV's really work and I hope they do 'coz the next time such a new product is advertised I certainly will start with being an atheist rather than hoping that it works.
Anyway given the fact that I don't intend to shelve out (even though I can afford) the $4k for these machines, I found some cheaper ones that cost about $400. Are these ok? I know that they won't be what a $9k machine gives, but then if it is ok for personal use, then I don't mind risking that amount.
The two that I have seen close to the $400 tag are:
1. HealthMark VibraFit &
2. Power Fitness Deluxe Vibration Plate (Crazy Fit Massager)
3. Soloflex
Any comments on any of these three or additions to the above lsit?
Thanks in advance.
54 - Phillip Winn
Suharsh, spend your money on a gym membership at the gym you're most likely to go to at least three times a week. Don't worry about the vibrating nonsense.
55 - Suharsh
Just read HyperGravity's post:
'I'm announcing my resignation from Hypergravity.
I'm not going to discuss the circumstances surrounding my decision to leave, but suffice it to say I left of my own free will for reasons of conscience.'
God!!! After the propagonda, you are saying that you are leaving HG because of 'conscience'. What do we read out of this? That you were aware that it is not helpful and yet you are selling it!
Am I mis-interpreting this? I hope Christopher you come out and clarify this.
Ofcourse given the given technical limitation, I might even sign up as HyperGravity and say that I have joined them again!!!
56 - Lloyd Shaw
You are all wise to ask the hard questions before buying or using these machines.
The major brand you talk of , had a production cost of less than E700. And that was for the large proffesional unit (RRP 9k ).
Go to www. vibrationtraining . net to see the court documents.
The smallest units I developed for my studios ( The Bullet ) cost me 12k just to build.
The very cheap units you talk of are Therapy machines. Nothing more. If that is what you are looking for then go for it.
If you want a workout. Leave them alone.
57 - Martin Huizing
Interesting to read how people tend to react on subjects. I started in 1999 and after my athletes (T&F, 47 secs on 400m) improved 20% in 4 months, where we already used to do a lot of powertraining, and some guests (olympic level) improved up to 100% in 3 months (also due to bad training programs) I was convinced that - if used correctly - the gains of WBV were tremendous. As we work a lot in medical centres it became obvious that the effects on low taxable and injured people were even more impressive. Now over 80 publications coming from over 50 different universities support the effect of the Galileo only. Other (vertical) systems have also some positive effects, but much less and with much less possibilities.
Sal, I wonder what your experiences are with this type of stimulation, as also all scientists I spoke with did not expect the sensation and clinical effects before they tried out themselves.
58 - Martin Huizing
Short addition to previous mail: it was 20% improvement in squats. The improvement of sprint times are of course the result of many training forms together.
I can remember one Olympic discus thrower (66+ m) telling me that he could do the double in training. Not very wise, as he should have used the improvement in gaining better recovery.
59 - Lloyd Shaw
You say that " only " the Galileo had positive effects. Which implies other units where also tested alongside the Galileo.
What where the names of the other machines used in the studies ?
Not supplying this information puts you at risk of looking like a salesman. Even though your attempt to compare Pivital with Lineal already puts you in the " marketers only " category.
60 - Lloyd Shaw
Lloyd Shaw
January 24th, 2007
POWER-PLATE CAUGHT RED HANDED
Mr Chris Bantin
75 Manoor Park Drive
Yateley
Hants
GU46 6JZ
27/02/06
To whom it may concern,
This is a letter with reference to the articals thet Power Plate have been placing in magazines.
The artical seeks to imply that I have been helped by PowerPlate in the past and I am endorsing them for othered disabled people. Both of these implications are false.
Everything about my experiences and the benifits I felt are true but it all relates to the machine now know as the Vibro-Gym and Kevin Barkclay web.
I do believe Vibration training is of tremendous benefit to bisabled people but I do not want them to be misled by unscrupulous marketing.
Yours Truly
Chris Bantin
The artical advert printed in D&CS FITNESS ( Disabled and supportive care mag )
It does imply all the way through the artical that Chris Bantin has been helped by Power-Plate and endorses it for everbody.
Now also remeber this was the new Chinese built unit that had massive problems from day one. So why would Power-Plate even let a disabled person near an uncalibrated unit.
Power-Plate once again shows us what they stand for.
Lloyd Shaw
61 - Sam
Check the above URL from NIH, gov website.
62 - Lloyd Shaw
Lloyd Shaw
January 25th, 2007
Discrimination against the overweight with some weight loss machines ?
Are companies producing low quality Vibration Training units discriminating against obese people by having low ” dynamic load ” specs ?
This is the point where the machine loses speed and amplitude due to a load threshold being exceeded.
I will be looking at this closer in the future. With tests on popular brands being released. One brand already coming up short at only 80kg.
In the mean time a discussion around the ethics of this would be valuable
63 - Fred Forster
Lloyd. I totally agree, we should expose unethical companies. However i do wonder if you are trying to discredit certain views & research to promote your own product?
64 - Lloyd Shaw
No , my company is doing well as a RESULT of having strict guidelines surrounding these issues to begin with.
I personally find it incomprehensable as a designer to manufacturer a weight loss unit with such low specs.
My main concern are for those individuals who do everything right , for once they take action after being told none would cost them their life or a leg at least. ( I see this daily at my mortuary ) They buy a home unit , or use a cheaply constucted unit at a studio used by some unethical company , complete the program and still fail.
Not to sound too dramatic , but what are you going to say , sorry we were to cheap to build a unit that worked for someone your size. And forgot to tell you.
Better luck next time ?
I did not create the Laws of Physics , but it seems I will have to help police them.
As no-one else seems to be interested in anything other than lining their pockets. No matter what the cost.
And your concern for my motives are irrelevant.
I am either Right or Wrong . No gray area on this one.
65 - Fred Forster
I am glad you are doing well, you seem to have good intentions. But I had to ask you that question. You are very skeptical of any system on this site that has been talked about postively.
I did a lot or research and trials of vibration equipment before I purchased the Galileo Sport and I'm pretty confident I bought the right machine. However I have just read Dereks comments on Boscos research and your reply was "My main problem is that companies like Vibra-Flex etc do not disclose before their research, that Pivitol and Lineal machines are opposites of each other. They do NOT do the same thing , and it reeks of bad marketing to not even mention that important point". I would like to challenge that point -Galileo/Vibraflex always mention that they are different to Lineal machines. It is the Lineal companies who use the research based on Galileo pivotal systems who are quite happy to misinform their customers.
You also mentioned that you would like to see the research comparing Galileo to vertical plates. I'm sure I came across this when I was searching, but dont ask me to go through all those papers again!.
66 - Lloyd Shaw
My point , that I will stick to is the Pivitol companies have never to my knowledge been any better than those companies like Power-Plate , and do not point out the " pros and cons " of both systems.
They just say " its better because...
you never hear " buts its not designed to....
67 - Fred Forster
A different point I would like to add. The first was about disclosing which machines the research was completed on. The 2nd point you mentioned is about companies pointing out the pros and cons of the two different systems.
Surely it is more unethical to promote your vibration system on research compiled using a totally different plate. I have looked at the WAVE site and see they are using the bed rest study (compiled using a pivitol system) to back up claims on their system. I was told this research paper intrigued the German Space research centre, who have been testing the pivitol system for suitability in space.
Every company will tell you the pros of their product, just like you do. Not all are going to tell you to go and buy a competitors because it has a better warranty etc. Of course if the system works in a certain way that is bad for your health then of course this should be stated. You make your choice on the system thats right for you and thats why its great to have these blogs, so people can make a informed decision.
The main thing here is for manufacturers to be honest with their marketing, however if their system is better than someone elses in certain areas what is wrong in promoting that fact.
You state
"what I will stick to is the Pivitol companies have never to my knowledge been any better than those companies like Power-Plate , and do not point out the " pros and cons " of both systems".
I do not know how you can make such a comment that pivotal companies are no better than powerplate. At least they use relevant research to back their systems, surely it is worse to have lineal companies using research which was compiled on a totally different system.
68 - Lloyd Shaw
Pure science would dictate that only the " exact " machine used in the study ( as medical ethics require not even a bolt to be changed ) could only be used in the promotion of its effects.
The correct method is to put in a disclaimer stateing that those exact units are no longer built. But similar or better models will be supplied.
And supply the reasons for the changes. Better construction etc..
The simple lack of doing so has let people to believe the action , speed and amplitude of the device is all they have to look for.
And it also hasnt helped their cause hiring salesman who compare Pivital and Lineal systems. When in fact they should have been seperated for their differences.
I for one will not be taking them seriously until I hear that happening.
69 - Fred Forster
The first thing I asked before I bought my system was what is the difference between Pivotal and Lineal. I'd imagine everyone asks this same question and it is important for people to know the difference.
I thought I'd go on your website Lloyd and see what you had to say. I found the pros clearly advertised, but not the cons!. However after a good search I did find a comparison to the 2 systems in one of your forums. I was surprised to see no mention of excess head vibrations or the lack of balance control on your machine.(I have not tried your machines so please tell me if im wrong)
I agree with you the industry does need a governing body to stop unscrupulous companies selling systems based on false claims, but that needs to be a independent unbias organisation. Yes, you have gained big brownie points with your informative views and exposure on bad practice, but if anyone tries to challenge your opinions you are very dismissive. Please try and be a bit more objective in your views. I'd like to think I made a well informed choice when I purchased my system, but your words imply I was probably duped into my purchase by a slick sales person, which was certainly not the case.
70 - Lloyd Shaw
The reason I dont mention the lack of specific rebalancing exercises when mentioning Lineal units is, When someone places one foot on a Lineal unit and another on a solid surface ( step reebok etc.. ) the action becomes pivital.
So any lineal unit is dual use. Pivital is not.
Any trainer or salesman who cant work that out , should never be allowed near a machine or person.
As this is one of the most basic bio-machinical principles for the use of WBV.
71 - Lloyd Shaw
Just a comment.
The first unit I ever built was Pitvol and Lineal.
The reason I didnt release it is I believe the world is only ready for one change at a time.
This is a big job , and we may not get a second chance to articulate this idea to the world.
Technology has been lost before by some VERY smart people , when this was not understood.
72 - Fred Forster
A very basic analogy I'm afraid and one a lineal/vertical sales person would probably use(your words). I guess you could use your example as a pivatol movement, but is it really as effective? I used to go to a lineal studio and from my experience I can tell you the intensity is not the same. Also, you never answered my question on head vibrations on lineal systems?
You state every good studio/gym should have both systems. Then on the other hand you state lineal systems are for dual use. I agree on a lot of your points but on this one we will have to disagree.
Ideally it would be good for an independent study to be carried out comparing all the different WBV systems.
I'd been interested to know if your systems have been part of any independent research study?
73 - Lloyd Shaw
No independent team of researches exist in N.Z. at the moment , educated enough to carry out such a task.
Trust me I wish there was. Every meeting I have had with Universities have been with people that lack the basic knowledge in this field. That would make the tests safe.
I continually hear they want to test Calorie burn rates with CO2 emsn tests ?
Or they want to make people jump up and down on the units ?
There is no way I am giving a 180kg machine to anyone with such limited education.
The comment I made earlier about having both types of units , was in regards to "Therapy" studios.
As properly built Pivital units have better gait correction abilities than Lineal. And I believe mucking around with step-reeboks is unproffesional.
To recap..
I will put my reputation on the line in both statements.
Lineal, Pros...
higher body-composition change , body- fat% , muscle development upper and lower body , performance gains .
Cons... head vibration levels may irritate , but properly built units and positions should almost elliminate this.
Safest at higher Fq.. 38hz +
Pivitol, Pros... better for re-balancing issues , incontinence , gait correction , lower back and abdominal workout whilst standing.
Cons.... Limited in its design and motion for weight loss , upper body development .
Safest at -30Hz
Both systems are good for increasing bone density.
74 - Lloyd Shaw
Lloyd Shaw
February 3rd, 2007
Just to let everyone know. We have an issues here in N.Z.
A certain so called “non-profit” organization ( Fitness N.Z. ) has given a retailer of fitness products the following.
(1) The CEO made a supposedly independent statement in a high profile fitness mag. ” this company is the only one that employs qualified staff ” Knowing no qualification exists in this field.
(2) A ” Preffered Suppliers ” award.
(3) A place on their board.
This particular person has been on our banned list for unethical business practices for some time , and was turned down for a purchase of a studio because of my concerns, which includes.
(1) Selling cheap Therapy units under the guise of Vibration Training.
(2) Although being a landlord , saw fit to go into direct competition with a Tenant. ( highly unethical )
(3) Knowingly useing other companies trademarked names to shift products.
(4) Using results from well known Training units to sell cheap asain Therapy machines to both Gyms and home users.
As having high business ethics could not have been the reason for these moves by Fitness N.Z. As one would expect with a ” non-profit org” . I will leave it up to the readers to guess its motives.
But I think it would be fair to say , that Fitness N.Z. is not moving in a good direction.
An update on this soon.
75 - Lloyd Shaw
Another dedicated Vibration Training link