Here’s the latest celebrity fitness nonsense - The Power Plate - thanks to Madonna.
As Madonna performs in London, the word is the aging pop star has kept her fabulous figure fabulous by using a faddish gadget known as the Power Plate. The Power Plate is a vibrating platform you stand on while assuming various positions, which – according to testimonials and marketing materials – can strengthen and tone and all that good stuff in just ten minutes a day, three days per week.…
Article comments
— go to most recent comments76 - Victor Plenty
This conversation reminds me of the many religious debates I've seen online over the years. The believers are absolutely sure their position has been proven beyond all doubt. Therefore, they think the only possible reason for skepticism is some form of dishonesty or other moral failing.
Skeptics know the long history of true believers who have been completely wrong in their beliefs, and skeptics are also well aware of the people who have only pretended to be true believers so they could profit from their skilled use of deception.
History shows over and over again: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This standard of proof cannot be met by a handful of people who claim they have experienced miraculous results. This is why anecdotal evidence is useless in a case like this.
77 - Lloyd Shaw
You are correct. And the issue is further clouded when companies make claims based on the assumption if they build something " similar " it will be the "same".
To simplistic an idea for health industry.
And you are also cerrect in saying we are a long way off , evidense this works on a mass population.
But time will tell that one. Safety comes first until then.
I do think some companies are genuinely trying to make a good product , for a good profit. Nothing wrong with that.
But others are FULLY aware they are misrepresnting themselves. That will not be forgotten , or forgivin.
78 - Dr. Steven Shoshany
I am A Spinal Decompression Specialist in Manhattan and I would like to incorporate this therapy into my practice.I know better than to relly on a manufacture to get accurate information. I have heard some of my colleuges using a power plate in their practice to build bone density and to reduce back tension. Can anyone that is familiar with this technique provide me with information and where I can buy a model. Thank you for your help.
79 - sal m
dr. shoshany:
why would you be interested in this equipment for therapy when there are existing, proven and safe modalities that can provide better benefits then the benefits touted by the manufactures of this nonsense?
if you are dealing with the elderly and infirm there are reems of studies - to which you should have access - that have been done that show how people are never too old or too ill to benefit from real exercise. qualified professional therapists are all that you need.
80 - Phillip Winn
It really shouldn't be hard to come up with a reasonable study with a reasonable protocol, and the fact that none of the studies anyone has mentioned above have done so tells me that people don't want such a study done.
It's simple: you pick as large a group of people as possible, *randomly* assign them into two groups, and have half of them exercise with the plate and half without.
If you wanted to further make bizarre and silly claims about vertical gravity vs horizontal gravity (and by the way, gravity is a result of mass, and is non-directional; that is, all gravity is "down" -- toward the mass), then you should have a randomly-assigned group exercising on a device which uses the *wrong* sort of vibration, and again, measure the results.
And by the way, a proper test involves a testable hypothesis, so you should make some predictions before starting. You can't just say, "Hey, let's see what's different," and pick resting pulse or oxygenation at random after the fact.
The only studies that even came close to following this methodology said that the device was essentially useless.
The tragedy is that the marketing nonsense potentially causes people to forgo actual helpful and healthy exercise in favor of standing on an expensive piece of floor. Exercise has the wonderful and incredible advantage of being free!
No wonder nobody shills for exercise. There's no money in it.
81 - D Leigha
I guess people are really that ignorant. To Phillip Winn: There have already been some studies like the ones your recommending.
1. "Effect of vibration exposure on muscular perfomance and body balance - Randomized cross-over study." 2002 Clin Physiol Funct Imaging
2. Hormone and lipolytic responses to whole-body vibration in your men" 2005 Physiol
And in regards to comments about vertical or horizontal gravity - LOL. Go back and read the posts, that is absolutely not what I was saying.Of course that is ridiculous. Here is the deal- Artur was confusing the Speed of an object in a horizontal direction (and trying to discuss materials used) with something entirely different, which is vertical movement of mass to accelerate ones own body through "space" creating, what is sometimes referred to, as hypergravity. This is not difficult to understand, maybe I needed to explain in complete detail but I assumed that there was a certian amount of knowledge there and I was wrong.
82 - artur
D Leigha, please stop reffering to me becuause you don't have the moral right to continue debating here as your claims were and still are unsubstantiated....
I have 15 years of international level sport, 5 as a coach and 7 as a physical therapist, as my university degree says so, and I'm currently doing my masters in sports performance methods, so I can say that I pretty much have seen nd tryed every method of training.
I never confused nothing when answering you, just my hope that you had the sufficient knowledge to understand...but.
About the horizontal/verticl bull... your implying, I was just making a point about materials that are usable for both types of accelerations, you could see it in my posts...my message had a hidden point that only people with enough knowledge could understand (engineers, biomechanics specialists, trainers, vibration specialists), not just any art teacher, with no credibility....
I never said anything about speed and I never confused it with acceleration (F1 and NASA ships go fast, but they also accelerate...think about it, and regardless, acceleration or speed, you will not use more mass to encrease them)
You use words like lipolytic, muscular performance, body balance, advising people on WBV,...but what do you know about them that allows you to do so?
Lloyd, it seems your history at Power Plate was not a happy one, so we'll just call it professional incompatibility that led to your premature deprture from PP, so you can't fool nobody , as you know there is nothing wrong with the Next Generation from Power PLate, apart the fact that is the best and market leader !
83 - artur
D Leigha, please explain us "in detail" what you ment !.....
84 - Lloyd Shaw
To Dr. Steven Shoshany. The Power-Plate unit is an effective " Vibration Therapy " machine, if not slightly limited in its ergonomics for disabled people.
Any of the lighter units available will cause the same response.
And yes you are correct Arter , my having ethics did get in the way of my relationship with Power-Plate.
A question for Sal M. Do you not consider involuntary reflexes , myotatic reflexes ,rebalancing responses and fight or flight to be a part of our exercise options.
Why would you limit yourself to only %30 of your CNS ?
You do understand we are primates ? This may sound a silly question but you would be surprised how " exercise experts " forget to educate themselves about basic zoology.
85 - Lloyd Shaw
And a straight up question for "Arter". Do you really agree with Power-Plates behavour ?
(a)Celebrity endorsments from other units used to sell theirs.
(b)Specs from other models used on product material.
(c) FIBO Awards passed on to un-tested machines year after year.
(d) University reports dirctly attached to New Plasitic Chinese model, even though reports originated from stainless steel European model.
( e) Misrepresenting the origins of machines with claims of manufactoring in Europe, when in fact from China.
I have an affidavit signed by CEO of Power-Plate admitting this.
Please explain why you personally find this acceptable ?
86 - Lloyd Shaw
We eagerly await your reply Arter. As a supporter of Power-Plate you already know the above. So you must have spent time justifying it to yourself. Now you can articulate your reasoning to the rest of us.
And Power-Plate Int. will not help you. I won my injunction , so the best they can do is a " no comment ".
87 - Carl Battersby
The trainers in NY i spent time with knew about what powerplate have done. It is a shame because it risks making everyone look like a hoax.
88 - LLoyd Shaw
Maybe Arter is away doing his new degree on ETHICS ?
89 - artur
Lloyd, I was on a little holiday, and you should not feel left out, but I don't gravitate around this blog like some others... I already wrote my oppinion about it, and I only came back to reply to D Leigha's attacks.
You can say whatever you want about it, but your oppinion will always be subjective due to the competitive status you have in regards to Power Plate...and that's the end of our polemic
My personal oppinion is that you and other "entrepreneurs" try to speculate the market and start an "anything goes" war against Power Plate the leader of WBV tech, as the marketing charts you have on your desk tell you...
The Power Plate worked for me and I'm not going to change it. I had The Classic and now I have The next Generation, and I am happy and sattisfied with the results they provide.
In light of all that my only comment and my future comment could only and also be NO COMMENT.
If you want to debate. be Sal's guests, I will come back when you will have a real subject to discuss...
For the real specialists: I will now start a study about the effects of Power Plate integrated in a speciffic training for a certain sport...you will find out more in 6 months max.
90 - LLoyd Shaw
So we can gauge from that response Arter agrees with Powerplates activities and seems to have a vested interest in keeping it quite. A "no comment" is typical from someone with something to hide from my experience.
The fact you wont use your real name is also a good clue you are not sincere.
Sorry but its not going to go away Arter. I promised Power-Plate when i left i would expose them , and i will. I hope your loyalty is not driven by greed.
And if they are market leaders , then why did Vibra-Train set up the first Vibration Training studio ? They seem to be following everybody else. Not very leadership like ?
And you may want to know , Power-Plates new Product Manager has now also left. And is in talks with Vibra-Train to swap his units . The words "rats and sinking ship" mean anything ?
91 - LLoyd Shaw
Arter , the company you support is now so desperate here in N.Z. they are for-going contra-indications and allowing people with pacemakers on the machines.
What is next , pregnant woman ?
92 - Carl Battersby
Where did the Powerplate guy go ? For such a staunch supporter he didnt have many answers.
And i hate to point it out Arter, but a real specialist goes where the evidense takes them. Not the market charts ? You sound like a bad salesman.
93 - LLoyd Shaw
This is an exact transcript of a news letter sent to people who had visited a Power-Plate studio . I will raise my concerns over its contents after you have read their statement.
Dear Valued Customer
Our Power-Plate Vibration Training Machine is the best in the world. Power-Plate International created the Power-Plate over 8 years ago being the first produced in this type of Vibration Training.
Power-Plate is successful and has research to back up it achieves and has ongoing research to ensure safe and effective results. Copy cats with no proven research have possibility to cause injury and the effectiveness of the machine is questioned , but more importantly could jeopardize safety of the clients using it. For example , did you know that if the calibration is not correct or the mega-hurts per second is not perfect or is not calibrated to the timing it can blow youer eyeballs out !!! . This is just one example of danger using a vibration machine that has not been researched or tested accurately and correctly.
Now i dont know if i should laugh or cry at this latest tactic , so i will keep my emotions in check and just stick to the facts.
The Power-Plate Next Generation was not released untill March 2004 not 8 years ago.
The machine they refer to as 8 years old , is made of metal in Europe.
It was not the first of its type.
The new version is made of plastic and made in China.
Power-Plate is the only company i know of "caught" red handed copying a machine.
I have yet to see research from the new model.
I have never heard of anyones eyeballs been blown out , ever . ( even on some of the earlier test units )
The only two engineering tests on the Power-Plate Next Generation machines i have seen. Were both massive failures.
I hope this shows how desperate Power-Plate is now to get customers. It is now using fear and straight out lies to convince people to use its product.
If i am wrong , they will supply the public details of this eyeball incident .
94 - LLoyd Shaw
And this was sent through the post , addressed to an individual. With Power-Plates registerd trademark mentioned a number of times. So it is not a joke , it is a legally binding statement.
I hope for their sake they can support these statements, or they will be the laughing stock of Vibration Training.
95 - sal m
check out my other piece that looks into the "research" behind WBV gadgets [here on] blogcritics.org
96 - Andrew: NYC
Have you ever tried controlled Whole Body Vibration? YOU ARE NOT OPERATING A JACK HAMMER! Vibration trianing on the vibration plates utilize "controlled/fixed" movements as oppossed to those you may be more familiar with that utilize "random" movements which are not the ones that are being recommened to be encorporated into your workout regime. Many people, believe that vibration training is the easy was out of working out! It is an amazing way to get couch potatoes interested in working out, but it can be as intense a workout as any other form of exercise. The fact that you can do it in a shortened time frame shouldn't encourage the critics. Performing 10-15 minutes 3 times a week for one month is all anyone needs to understand how amazing a technology this can be. My opinion is that you try things for yourself before you take the word of someone who has clearly never personally utilized the equipment. There are several machines placed throughout the city that will give a free trial to anyone who is interested. This is coming from someone who has physically been on the machine and although have not experienced the dramatic changes as of yet- I do believe that the machine and the technology is worth trying and possibly adding it your workout.
PLEASE REMEMBER THIS IS NOT TO TOTALLY REPLACE TRADITION EXECISE FOR ALL PERSONS!
97 - LLoyd Shaw
Power-Plate was right , i was on a machine today and my eyeballs popped right out. Unfortunatly i put them in the wrong way round and now i have Dyslexia.
But strangly i can see Power-Plates doudle crossing clearly now.
98 - Dr. JW
For those skeptics out there. . . please look the research converning WBV or Whole body vibration, don't google it, use the index medicus, it's peer-reviewed and will surprise you. In my practice we have had success not ony with athletes, but also with Parkinsons, Osteoporosis, and deconditioning in the elderly. WBV is not a new concept and should not be compared to a subway ride or a vibrating belt. The frequency and displacement are the key and it is truly an important part of rehabilition and training.
99 - sal m
i love how these WBV shills parrot the same line about there being these alleged peer reviewed papers, but they never provide us with any specifics as to such papers.
in the rare case where a citation is provided the study is flawed to the point of being meaningless.
100 - Jason W. Haas
One should be careful with the term Shill. It is inappropropriate and not necessary in debate. Here is a very small sample of peer-reviewed, index medicus papers demonstrating the effects of WBV. These are highly respected journals and the standards for publication are impeccable. For example, finding a "flawed" study in Spine journal is a very, very difficult task.
Bone. 2006 Jul 4; Low-level mechanical vibrations can influence bone resorption and bone formation in the growing skeleton. , Jacobson, JM, et al
J Bone Miner Res. 2004 Mar;19(3):352-9, Effect of 6-month whole body vibration training on hip density, muscle strength, and postural control in postmenopausal women: a randomized controlled pilot study. Verschueren, SM, Roelants M, et al.
J Bone Miner Res. 2006 Sep;21(9):1464-74. Low-Level, High-Frequency Mechanical Signals Enhance Musculoskeletal Development of Young Women With Low BMD. Gilsanz V, Wren TA.
Spine. 2003 Dec 1;28(23):2621-7. Transmissibility of 15-hertz to 35-hertz vibrations to the human hip and lumbar spine: determining the physiologic feasibility of delivering low-level anabolic mechanical stimuli to skeletal regions at greatest risk of fracture because of osteoporosis. Rubin C, Pope M.
NeuroRehabilitation. 2006;21(1):29-36. The effects of random whole-body-vibration on motor symptoms in Parkinson's disease. Haas CT, Turnbanski S.
This technology is completely different from occupational vibration and hand held tool vibration. There is a difference. If one refuses to listen to the current biomedical literature, perhaps you should try it for yourself for 12 to 15 sessions and then determine your position.
101 - LLoyd Shaw
The beggining of the end ? Power-plates sent that letter out to possably thousands of people denigrading all other machines as dangerous , with "Les Mills" logo on it.
I think they just crossed the line and are about to meet their match.
If anyone would like a copy of this letter i will get it scanned onto my website .
102 - Dan Fivey
Hi,
I hope you are well and healthy.
I have attached some studies that may interest you: these where done on the VibroGym when it was called the Powerplate (please note the Powerplate is now a completely different machine). The studies are on an ACL injury repair and Fibromyalgia.
These studies show that Vibration Therapy/Training is valid way of exercising and has many benefits.
Some more studies are available on this site.
The research on this page also shows that the VibroGym is gaining credibility and is very superior to its many copies and imitations. I am keen to read about your thoughts about these studies.
The VibroGym is now available in over 70 locations in Australia and NZ!
Our certified trainers at these locations are helping clients define goals and are creating programs that will help them achieve those goals. The VibroGym is available at Gyms, Personal Training Studios, Physio's, Chiropractors, Beauty Salons, Day Spa's and Weight Loss Centres.
A VibroGym session takes just 15 minutes, three times a week to strengthen, tone and revitalize your body. And at only $10-20 per session, VibroGym is affordable and it works. Some of these centres are seeing over 30 people a day on their machine!
The VibroGym is helping people lose weight, tone up, increasing their flexibility, lose cellulite, recover from an injury, decreasing back pain, increasing balance and stability and gain strength. Users include people who are over 100kg, MS sufferers, wheelchair users, Cystic Fibrosis sufferers, athletes, celebs, sports teams, Parkinsons sufferers, diabetics, fibromyalgia sufferers, the elderly and overweight children.
The VibroGym has appeared in UltraFit Magazine, Womens Health and Fitness, Inside Sport, Alpha Magazine, The Age, The Sun Herald and will feature in Womens Weekly, Cleo and Cosmo soon.
Some new exciting studies will be coming from Universities in Australia and NZ in the future, they have just started and we expect the results to be very promising.
I have some new testimonials that you may like to read and I hope you enjoy reading them and I look forward to your comments.
Kind regards
Dan Fivey
[Personal contact info deleted]
103 - LLoyd Shaw
Dan i understand you are just a salesman , and dont know any better , but give it a rest. This is an IDEAS forum , putting up the research is good , but putting up prices is crass.
In the past you have only repeated what your marketing bosses have told you to say. Without question.
That is not welcome here. But questions are.
104 - LLoyd Shaw
Or here is your chance to prove me wrong. You used to work with Power-Plate. Why have you never spoken out about what they did and continue to do ?
Lets see if we get a straight answer.
Time to move from " Marketer " to " Vibration Trainer " Dan and earn some respect.
105 - LLoyd Shaw
A typical "no comment " from the marketers when asked a direct question. This is why Dan Fivey has been banned from all Vibra-Train and Fitness Lounge studios globally.
And the list of banned individuals is growing.
This new industry does not need reasons for skeptics to mistrust us any further than they do already.
106 - Dan Fivey
Hi,
My Experience with VibroGym started in 2000 (when it was called tthe Powerplate). It is the original Vibration machine from Europe with lots of published research.
There are now many copies of this platform: the new powerplate for one, the ones that are in Lloyd Shaws studio's with NO proven published research supporting them.
The VibroGym machine is the platform that I responsible for in Australia: I train personal trainers, physios, chiro's, doctors, sports professionals how to use the machine and am responsible for writing the programs associated with the machine.
There are now over 70 locations in Australia (it has only been here 8 months) with many people using it that would not be able to go to a gym. The VibroGym is helping people lose weight, tone up, increasing their flexibility, lose cellulite, recover from an injury, decreasing back pain, increasing balance and stability and gain strength. Users include people who are over 100kg, MS sufferers, wheelchair users, Cystic Fibrosis sufferers, athletes, celebs, sports teams, Parkinsons sufferers, diabetics, fibromyalgia sufferers, the elderly and overweight children.
They are enjoying using the original platform with the correct protocols: not a copy or made up protocols that have nothing to do with the research.
This industry is full of cowboys and I think everyone has this battle: cars, dishwashers, microwaves etc. Rest assure the VibroGym is here to stay and will continue to help many people break down the many barriers to exercise.
107 - Roberta
Geez, how did this turn into a sales pitch for this nonsense?
108 - LLoyd Shaw
Sorry Reburta , thats just what this guy does. He doesnt know any better.
Now Mr. Dan Fivey.
Considering i bought the Vibro-Gyms ino New Zealand and Australia ( i have over 40 in my studios ), why would you lecture me on their value ? To maybe make it look as though you somehow had done some actual work to get them there ?
And the only reason new models where produced , by my company , was to eliminate the limitations surrouding the Vibro-gyms. ( warranties , 140kg max etc.. ) It was 10yrs old. With no updates on features we needed. For our studio network.
You still have not answered the original question Mr Dan Fivey. Why have you not spoken out about what happened at Power-Plate. You took money for what you did there , remember.
No-one is going to believe you are an honest saleman until you are man enough to stand up and say the truth.
109 - LLoyd Shaw
And another question , Dan have you ever used others reseach on an untested model. In Australia or the U.K. ? You seemed to make it clear in your last staement , you regard this as unethical behavour by others.
Pleaes answer honestly or i will have to expose you again.
110 - AW
so lloyd I am in the market for a machine... what do you suggest for home use.. HYpergravity or Powerplate?
111 - LLoyd Shaw
No competition , Hypergravity. At the moment the only home unit i would purchase myself.
112 - LLoyd Shaw
The problem with our industry is highlighted in the above statements by Dan Fivey.
When asked a direct question , they just go into " sales pitch " mode. This person had no problem using and charging for different machines with no research for years and years while in the U.K.
He also worked for Power-Plate , and never once raised concern over ethical issues.
Now after 8 years they finally have "some " marketing research.( after 8 years i would be worried if they didnt ) They then claim anyone with a new model is doing something bad ? ( a position they were once in )
The fact some companies in this field find this ok , like the one Dan works for , is good enough reason NOT to trust them.
113 - Lloyd Shaw
Power-Plate fail more tests, with a statement now released form the Instutute of Sport ;
"Recent pilot work with an accelerometer taped to the plate at the AIS suggests that with the Power-Plate under load ( 80kg) the vibration Fq may be less than what the maufacturers claim ( on 50hz it dropped to 40hz )"
Power-Plate have known for over 18months now this is a problem ( they have posession of similar reports ), but still sell the units anyway.
If anyone out there has bought a unit and would like there money back. I will send you plenty of info to back up your claim.
114 - sal m
lloyd:
for the layman please explain a few things.
1) what does this means in a practical application setting?
2) why is the claim with regard to the vibration frequency made by the power plate people significant and why/how does this data that you refer invalidate the claims of PP.
3) please provide a link to this study.
thanks for keeping us up to date!
115 - Lloyd Shaw
(1) In a practical sense it is simple , if you are a trainer , no matter what your belief system is ( some trainers prefer 35hz over 40hz etc.. ) it is very important to know what the machine is actually doing.
If the machine is not doing as requested, all programs become a mute point.
This is no different than any other form of training.
Last time i checked , guesswork is for cowboys.
(2) The Power-Plate is being sold to the public as a weight loss machine. But it stops doing its job at 80kg. The heavier the person , the further from Power-Plates own programs you get.
Vibration Training is not magic , it is simply another form of resistanse training , and as Sal M will prob agree , for that to work you need movement and pressure. This is not an aerobic workout , it is anaerobic. With the main goal of changing your bodies composition through the hormonal shift and energy burn bought on by the bodies healing cycle.
This is a type of physics equation, very similar to weights. So if the machine drops its rating, you are doing less weights with less movement.
The last point is , do you really want to get on a vibrating plate you have no idea what it is doing ? It is bad enough this is new and tests results have been shared and stolen etc.. to a point where even i dont believe them even when i do see something positive.
But ISO ( global safety standards ) already have tests ( and i DO trust them ) that tell us to keep away from long term exposure to certain Fq.
Some are safe , others are not.
So knowing would be nice.
If you e-mail me Sal M , i will send you a copy of the reports.
116 - sal m
lloyd:
if you go to my personal blog you can get my email and send the report to me.
thanks again for clarifying a few issues and for taking the time to respond.
117 - Tim Scott
I have looked for a used Vibrogym and can't find any. They aren't cheap as you know. Anyone have one for sale? I hope this gets printed. I have no idea what the URL is that we are supposed to include.
118 - Jacqui
I do not agree!! You are scared and you must be!! Soon this wonder machine will replace people like yourself. I can show remarkable results after trying for the past 15 years every thing on the market to get the body I want. This really works. You just have to use it more than once. After only two weeks I droped from a size 14 to 12. Where in this world can any other method ensure that?? This is good for blood flow and circulation. I feel relaxed and stress free!!!
119 - sal m
yes, i am TERRIFIED that a machine that does nothing will eliminate a whole industry of people that actually do something based on the words of random, anonymous anecdotes!
the end is nigh!
going from a size 14 to a 12 in two weeks is earth-shattering news! it's unprecedented! never before in the history of human kind has a person lost 15 pounds in 2 weeks!
120 - devin s
I love this forum. Each side is amusing. Sal's argument is based upon the ability to get solid research. I'm still wondering when we will get irrefutable evidence that a certain number of reps of a certain number of sets of a squat exercise with a certain weight maximum will lead to the greatest muscle increases. Im still waiting for the most optimal time to take whey protein to give me the best muscle gain. I'm still waiting for the BEST rehab protocol out there that will accelerate an ACL repair process. Last I checked, every doctor and therpaist had their own 'secret' protocols or a protocol that just 'felt right' due to experience.
On the other hand, I get a good laugh at all the vibration proponents that say 'i swear this works! It has helped ME!'. What's even more amusing are the people that start pitching their own companies.
Here's my take on this: Sal has valid arguments regarding his desire to see hard research. I have used vibration training extensively with a wide array of people with all types of conditions, including healthy athletes. Do i get great results? Yes I do. VERY good results indeed. Do I think vibration exercise is the end all be all of all exercise? No, not really. Do i feel there's solid evidence to satisfy Sal's curiousity to have him throw up his hands and say 'wow, this is amazing! I fully support vibration!'? No, i seriously dont think that will EVER happen.
Vibration training is effective for anyone as long as you know what purpose the exercise is for. If you want to drop 10 dress sizes, I dont think standing on a vibration plate is going to achieve that. If you want to be able to dunk a basketball, i dont think vibration exercise is going to achieve that. Now if you had a caloric restriction diet based upon proper nutritional concepts, and augmented your vibration training with other forms of explosive training, I'd be crazy to say it wouldnt help. People here that support vibration make it sound like a magic pill, which places a person like Sal in a position of frustration to debunk these claims.
I commend Sal on his skepticism, based upon the 'information' that is out there. However, Sal also needs to understand that people like Lloyd Shaw, who has extensive experience with vibration, in addition to some of the doctors that are using it and posted on this site, may have some validity in what this technoglogy can do and will do. You know what happens when something great comes along that changes peoples' lives? Other people, like researchers start getting interested and guess what? They start getting grants and doing more and more research.
Basically we are at a crossroads here. Everyone can vent and shout at the top of their lungs to Sal that this works, and Sal can sit here and debunk the technology. The fact remains: the technology does work and more research needs to be done to see what about it is good and what about it is bad.
Another point i have to make about Sal's comments that you can use conventional training for certain things. Well, if that's the case, then exactly what conventional training program is the best out there for eveyrone? guess what, there isn't. It's based upon a professional's experience using proper physiological principles with their own experiencs to what has worked in the past, get feedback from the client or patient, make alteration in the plan and provide objective outcomes. It's that simple. I doubt that Sal can pull out evidence based, peer reviewed journal articles for every exercise he does with his clients. I pretty much can't do the same with any protocols i use in vibration training either.
Dont slam Sal for being a skeptic. It's healthy to create dialogue. Dont slam Lloyd Shaw or the doctors or users here for their positive outcomes with the technology either.
Keep the discussion going.
121 - Me
I'm amused at the level of discussion too. In fact, I'd like to point out that most of those posting regular in this thread (so much fun, I had to read it all!), you come out as very thin-skinned and inexperienced in dealing with people. I'm sure most of you are experts and professional in _your_ field of work, but that obviously doesn't make you good debatants. So I want to offer my observations as a trade for a good show.
People will have different opinions. You seem to want to change the other opinions. This obviously will never work when everybody has that as a goal. Indeed, it only shows that you are very insecure in your opinion, to want to "convert" others to it.
There's alot of frustration here, and it reduces the debate down to ad hominem attacks rather than fact and science-based discussion. I would go as far as calling it "uncivilized".
Sal: Your tone is unsettling. "so they decided to lie to the gullible public", "corporate shills", etc. You're the one responsible for this blog, yet you use provocative wordings, preconcieved and biased opinions like these?
Leigha: Poor Artur was trying to make a discussion with you, but your continued deriding him of lack of knowledge of physics and not wanting to see HIS viewpoint as he was discussing it, put your debate to rest. Even IF he said something wrong, there's never a good reason to be all fury about it.
Artur: Reducing the argument down to objectivity vs. subjectivity in the other person is not very mature either. Facts can be argued about, but dismissing the other person entirely is bad form.
Lloyd: You seem to have an axe to grind ;-)
To everybody: Assuming ANYTHING about the other person, on the internet, or assuming evil intent, is really a killer for any intelligent debate.
I came here to see if a cheap vibrationworkout machine would be good enough quality (about US$ 307). I guess I got my answer, although it took quite a while to figure it out and read it all.. I'd like to try it out anyways though..
Just giving my observations for your betterment, and... I can see it probably because having fallen in the same traps myself many a times..
Yeah and giving out your real name on the internet can have negative effects later.. So I never do that :-)
Just to spur the debate further: Wouldn't the mass of the equipment be very important as a counterweight to the body-mass of the person in order to gain high and stabile frequency? I guess you could rely on strong materials, motor and bolt down the platform, so that's my suggestion for a budget vibro-platform ;-)
Hey, debating without any clue is fun! :*)
Let's just call a spade for a spade..
122 - sal m
it was written:
"Sal: Your tone is unsettling. "so they decided to lie to the gullible public", "corporate shills", etc. You're the one responsible for this blog, yet you use provocative wordings, preconcieved and biased opinions like these?"
please explain why my tone is unsettling.
i don't think you understand what the phrase "preconcieved and biased opinions" means since my opinion is based upon my reading not only all of the research provided by the power plate folks, but the research provided by other manufacturers of these vibrating gadgets.
i use "provacative wordings" because i want people to think before they dive in and believe the claims of all fitness hucksters. i want people to look at the research and not just take the words of marketers at face value.
i'm not selling anything, but trying to get people to think before they spend their hard earned money on products that are suspect.
123 - Lloyd Shaw
ME ...
you prove Sal's and my point perfectly. You looked for an answer , and you got it. Yes you had to wade through "opinions' to get it , but what a small price to pay.
The " question everything " and " marketers are the new used cars salesman " message here is good for everybody.
My axe is swinging , yes. And Power-Plate are not the only one for the chop. They have just gone too far, enough to damage the reputation of Vibration Training. And i will put my name to this lesson.
124 - sal m
and lloyd's contribution here has added an unintended benefit to the mix of questioning the claims of the power plate people and other WBVers...as someone in the field his position is that the WBV cause has been damaged by those who have misrepresented the possible benefits of WBV.
therefore, the legit guys will have to continue to "push shit uphill with a small broom" in order to get their message out. this is a case where everyone loses.
125 - Jo
Hello Lloyd,
I´m over here in Germany and thinking about adding a couple of vibration platforms to my studio. what brand can you recommend for professional use?
thanks in advance for the information