You see, I recognize that it is important in some instances to standardize our symbology in order to communicate effectively without being misunderstood. Yet I also stand firmly behind the thought that it is even more important sometimes to break those strictures and structures in order to shake off the boundaries of convention.
Because very rarely is anything truly new discovered within the safety of conformity. That only when the boundaries are tossed aside can we open ourselves up to see more than we expect.
--Some nuts on that Sundae?--
that beckons me,
into these,
infinite Possibilities."
TooL
so we hit on the Question of Why....
why push outside "the Box"
why stretch the normalcy of Convention
that would depend on what Conventions you are stretching now, wouldn't it?
ask Newton why he needed to invent calculus, or why Shakespeare wrote in iambic pentameter
on and on
possibly, it's just to get folks to look at something differently, or to engender deeper Thought
perhaps by smacking the Receptor in the metaphorical Face with Symbology that falls outside of standard Conception it's Hoped that the Audience will be forced outside the ruts of Convention and ponder Things in a new Light or Shadow
perhaps it's just wanting to shout in a different Voice in order to rise above the Din
--More Vanilla--
Of course some don't like the idea of stretching convention in such a manner. They find it disrespectful, strange, or just plain distasteful.
They said the same thing about Charlie Parker and bebop jazz when they first heard it. How stunned were the powers that be when Bird danced around the melody, never quite playing it, but implying it by what he was playing. It took a bit more for the listener to follow, but those who did found it well worth it, and the case can be made that Bird changed how some look at music forever.
So I would say that in some instances, it's about a unique voice. Especially in the medium of the Web. So much text out here, and when you read it, what voice do you hear in your skull?
--The Hot Fudge--
and that's the nut of it, kiddies....
make your own unique Voice heard, when the time comes, fuck Convention...
"always upward"
or, as is put in this little embedded bit of Sight and Sound....
"learn to swim"
nuff said from yer Humble narrator... thanks fer *Listening*
Excelsior?
Article comments
— go to most recent comments1 - Lisa McKay
Some good points made here, Gonzo, and I think I agree with your ideas about symbolism.
But here's a question for you: is an original and thought-provoking comment made more so by a lack of punctuation or capitalization? Or because the text is center-justified? I don't think so, but obviously that's a matter of taste.
I guess my larger point is that standardization of format doesn't necessarily yield conformity of thought, and similarly, a rejection of those standards doesn't necessarily yield content that's outside the box in any meaningful sense.
2 - gonzo marx
well Lisa... some good Questions there, and of course spot on with the crux of the Topic...
here's my take...
remember what i said about iambic pentameter in the Article?
it's like that in a Way
by utilizing differing structures, one tends to draw the attention of those you are attempting to communicate with outside of normal structure
hopefully subliminally prying open a closed mind into *looking* at the Thoughts conveyed in a different manner...
example: the diference between a comic and a comedian in current cultural context...
a comic tell Jokes
after Lenny Bruce, and as perfected by Carlin and Pryor... a good comedian becomes that "hip conversationalist" at a party, or the bar...talking with the audience in a more personal fashion, and utilizing quirks of storytelling or Observation about the human condition/current events or frailties and foibles to elicit a Laugh at the Absurdities common to the human condition...
so.. in the case of my own weirdness...
think of It more as trying to shed the Formalities of notmal structures, and trying to make the Interaction more like a personal Conversation...
or even an attempt at more direct Communication...
i woudl hope anyone familiar with my admittedly bizzarre stylings would readily acede that the "Voice" i use *sounds* different in the Mind's ear than that of more conventional typings...
and if for that Reason alone, it's enough for the likes of me
but let's look at it more as Symbology...
could it be that by utilizing different punctuation and capitalization structures than the norm, i might just be trying to draw more attention from the Reader towards what i am capitalizing, rather than just the beginning of a sentence.....?
can the rampant ellipses be for the sake of timing, or dramatic pauses, ather than the standards of punctuation...
perhaps it's because i try and approach it like Music... where the differences between a whole note and a quarter note can make a difference in the overall Experience
perhaps i am merely attemting to get the Reader more involved in a deeper Way, by getting them to contemplate why i muck about with Convention while they are Reading...
maybe i just like being weird?
now, i am in full Agreement with your last sentence when you say...
*I guess my larger point is that standardization of format doesn't necessarily yield conformity of thought, and similarly, a rejection of those standards doesn't necessarily yield content that's outside the box in any meaningful sense.*
you are correct in the entire Statement, i have no Argument there
but it seems to me that it doesn't take into account when conformity DOES dull expression... or when non-Conformity DOES break some boundaries
and i think that's Important...
i also think that merely being Unique can be important as well... again i cite ee cummings, Charlie Parker, Shakespeare, Lenny Bruce... and so may Others, who broke boundaries and brought us all something Different to explore... merely by being a Unique Voice...
your mileage may vary
Excelsior?
3 - Lisa McKay
I definitely see where you're coming from in terms of trying to draw the reader's attention, Gonzo. My argument here would be that sometimes unconventional formatting only serves to make it more difficult for the reader to discern your meaning -- not a good thing, in my opinion, in a venue where most writing serves to be informative (we do not, after all, publish literature or experimental fiction here).
While I agree that it's a matter of taste, I'll note that the success of such efforts overall might be the subject of honest disagreement amongst reasonable people.
And you'll get no argument from me that some of the greatest creative geniuses have been those who have broken all the rules -- the examples you cite are all excellent ones -- but alas, most of us are not geniuses and must simply strive to make ourselves understood as best we can.
4 - gonzo marx
i'm very Glad you "get it" , Lisa...
might i just add a layer of esoterica to the Mix?
i have abit of a background in gung fu.. and one of the dictums of Teaching the Subject is to give the Student just a little of the Information, and the Tools to figure the rest of it out themselves...
the Idea behind this is that it is better for Learning something completely to think about it, and find the Answer yourself than to just have Authoritarian pronouncements and rote memorization alone...
i realize such borders on both Hermetic and Heretical thinking...
but there ya are
for the Record... i'm far from any kind of "genius"
but i do like weird...
and i think that how i portray my Thoughts in this text-only method of Communication aids in Understanding for some and Confusion for others
just what i Wanted... those that Understand have another point of View to ponder, and those who are Confused face the Choice...
walk away... or try and figure shit out... or even fire back a Comment and Ask/Argue
no matter what, some form of Communication and thought Provocation has been achieved
Excelsior?
5 - Clavos
gonzo, your #4 kinda loads the topic in such a way that one is hesitant to brand oneself as confused, but I have to say that, IMO, if one has something to communicate, one should strive to do so in a clear and easily understood manner.
I majored in English Lit, with a minor in writing, and I never liked ee cummings for just that reason. I always thought his style was too artificial and contrived to be taken seriously.
That said, I'll give you that (s)he who really wants to know what you're saying will struggle through the weirdness, and as a result, probably remember it better.
OTH, you're one of the posters and commenters on BC whose every word I read and try to digest, even when I disagree, which, I'm sure you've determined by now, is more often than not.
Clavos
6 - Lisa McKay
As a student of tai chi myself, Gonzo, I hear where you're coming from, and in fact, I think that giving students the tools to teach themselves forms the basis of any good teaching, and while I think that our public school systems might find such thinking heretical, I myself do not.
If provocation is your goal, then I would continue to argue that a well-constructed sentence is still quite capable of achieving that goal -- and since we seem to have come to an impasse, I will thank you for the discussion and agree to disagree!
7 - gonzo marx
of course i Understand and Respect yer Position here Lisa...
and part of the Provocation in this Article had to do with showing the difference between those well constructed sentences.. (the Vanilla parts)... and the dramatic Emphasis of changing it to my more ...ahem... *normal* Stylings...
hopefully, the Difference is immediately noted by the Reader...
my Curiosity is... did you *hear* the Difference as you read?
both *styles* have a certain atmospheres, and my Thought is that i completely Understand the desire for standarization in text for News purposes, newspapers, books (informative, not Literature) and other infromational Sources is to be striven for...
i think that Editorials ( my pieces are always marked "opinion").. and especially so here in the digital aether of the Net.. are suited to such license of styling differences
again... just a unique Voice amongst the Din
and i do want to Thank you for the discussion...
having this back and forth is the Reason for posting the Article... to get folks to talk about it, and so others could read it and ponder for themselves...
just like any of the other mad keypeckings i've spewed onto everyone's Monitaur previously
Excelsior?
8 - gonzo marx
thanks Clavos...
i'm both disturbed and flattered that you read my Stuff so dedicatedly (kidding... a Jest)
STALKER!
but i digress...
hopefully some of the comments and the Article itself hep shed some Light on my Reasoning...strange as it may be
but i Ask in return... espcially since we do disAgree on some topics but not all...
why is it then, if not for the different *sound* of my *Voice*.. and what i provoke/invoke would you bother? i mean more clearly... what is it then that makes you enjoy the Read?
just Curious
Excelsior?
9 - Clavos
why is it then, if not for the different *sound* of my *Voice*.. and what i provoke/invoke would you bother? i mean more clearly... what is it then that makes you enjoy the Read?
gonzo, I would have thought the answer to that would have been obvious (using a poor imitation of your style):
the *Content*....
Agree or disagree, your posts are usually thought provoking and deserving of consideration...
but i digress.... :>)
10 - gonzo marx
aaarRRRrgGGGGggHHHhh!!!!
hoist by me own Petard!!
heh
fair enough, Clavos...
i do try and toss some of that there *Content* stuff into the mix...
as well as a bit of the olde boardwalk carnie style of Entertainment
but ya Knew that...
{8^P~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Excelsior?
11 - Ray Ellis
"He who fusses over anything spoils it.
He who grasps anything loses it."
_-Lao Tzu
Bur being a student of Eastern philosophy, you should know that, Gonzo--and also realize the fallacy of your argument.
12 - troll
how odd...not
I find gonzo's writing far easier to follow than the work of many BC well formed formulae producers
it has something to do with the spacing - dense Germanic paragraphs are not reader friendly on the web
troll
13 - gonzo marx
well now, that same Argument can be aimed at those who favor more strict standardization...
and anyone can take Quotes out of Context for their own Purposes
might i Suggest that strict Formalization is the Stone in the river...
and stream of Consciousness is the Water...
just a Thought
Excelsior?
14 - Ray Ellis
I am a Taoist. I'm also familiar with stream of consciousness writing. I also can tell when people are over-compensating. And with that, I'll leave you to your desperate cries for attention.
15 - gonzo marx
and of course troll nails another Facet...
Netizen conventions as opposed to those of Print
Bog and JuJu knows i've trolled far too many Forums of various kinds since the late '80s found me with a 300 baud acoustic modem hooked into a pirate Iron Horse BBS
objects in mirror are closer than they appear
Excelsior?
16 - troll
hey Ray - do you and gonzo have a history or something - ?
I'm not clear on the meaning of your last...which darkly seemed to contradict itself
17 - duane
I am a Taoist . Ahahahhaha. Shit. That's the funniest thing I've read today. Oh Lord. Good one, Ray.
18 - gonzo marx
for troll in #16 - yeah, Ray and i have conversed before.. he feel smy stylings are an attempt to hide some defeciancies in my Arguments... or inconsistencies of Position
that i'll leave up to the folks who have actually read a decent sized portion of my ramblings.... the Consistency part at least
for Ray in 14 - funny.. i didn't realize Taoism involved metaphorical drive-by kicking in the nuts
howabout you do more than make a snark, but state your Reasoning for discussion? i Respect your right to a viewpoint, and as i told you on another Thread if you don't like the Way i screed...
don't read it
it's really just that Easy...
duane in #17 - thanks for the Laugh, but i know you just stopped by for the TooL video i embedded...
heh
Excelsior?
19 - duane
Gonzo: but i know you just stopped by for the TooL video i embedded
Well, to be fair to both of us, I read your article, of course ... twice.
Then I watched the video, of course, Tool, in all their polyrhythmic crunchiness, being irresistible to the likes of me.
I, not being a Taoist, feeling free of the behavioral guidelines imposed by such wisdom as
"In dealing with others,
Know how to be gentle and kind
In speaking,
Know how to keep your words"
decided to imply an impolite Question to Ray based on said drive-by.
I am pondering your article. I am sure that I have yet to grok it for all it's worth. If it were merely a poll, I would side with your opinion concerning style, having enjoyed your writings.
But that ain't 'nuf said. More later.
Carry on.
20 - gonzo marx
ah duane.. yer far beyond...
loved the Quote;
thanks...
Excelsior?
21 - Victor Plenty
WARNING: Do not look into laser with remaining good eye.
And that's all I have to say about that.
22 - gonzo marx
heh...Victor..i'm speechless
possibly due to the Rube Goldberg device holding me glassies open while shaving my tongue...
but your comment reminds me of an old lightbulb Joke....
"how many Surrealists does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
.............
............
.............
Fish!"
hey.. i liked it
Excelsior?
23 - John Spivey
gonzo-
I have a different take on writing. For me, my words should have a rhythm and a texture that are inherent in their phrasing. If I were to rely on the appearance of the text, it would be like holding up a sign that says "applause" or "laughter." It's not about convention. I'm certainly not about conventions. It's just that my words need to do their work without stage directions.
I want the rhythm of my words to carry on into the mind even if their are not yet understood.
That's just me.
js
24 - duane
"what do you think the most important tool Man has created is?"
My answer would have been "writing." But obviously, symbols would have to predate writing, so I would agree with you there. Check.
In discussing Oog and Ug, predecessors of the esteemed Og (ca. 40,000 BC), upon whom I usually base my prehistoric "histories," I infer that you mean that words themselves are symbols, irrespective of how one might choose to further symbolize them in writing. Yes? Check.
I might disagree that music is symbolic. As Roger Dean, the artist for Yes album covers, said (paraphrasing -- I'm so well read!), "Music does not refer." Long before there were little black dots, there was music. 'Tis but a quibble, and does not detract from the Substance of your thesis.
Music does indeed communicate. But not in the same way that words or mathematical equations communicate. It is quite mysterious to me. Check.
Because very rarely is anything truly new discovered within the safety of conformity.
A scientific credo. We presume that discovery is something to be sought after. Makes me think of Religion. Check.
"Oh so many many ways for me to show you
How your dogma has abandoned you ."
perhaps it's just wanting to shout in a different Voice in order to rise above the Din
Perhaps a lot of honesty coming through.
"We have to shout above the din of our Rice Crispies
We can't hear anything at all."
it's about a unique voice.
You want us to hear you as though we were having a face-to-face conversation over a coffee or a beer.
and when you read it, what voice do you hear in your skull?
It is so difficult to convey the tone of voice, the nuance of inflection, the averted eye, the hidden smile, the raised eyebrow, the thoughtful pause, the hand gesture, the straight-faced joke, the grimace, the rolling eyes, the rapid fire burst of words vs. the careful stringing of bits and pieces of phrases together.
It doesn't matter when you're reporting a news story. All that matters is the information. Information. The four or five 'W's. Information is not all that's conveyed in communicating. Maybe, among other things, you want us to acknowledge this.
It's worth trying.
I wonder too what voice people hear when they are preparing to respond to other comments or posts. Tempers flare up very easily online, and I just have to wonder how much of it is because of the impersonal nature of the typed word.
Don't get me wrong. Anonymity is a valuable commodity at sites like BC. But it does seem to cause a few problems.
learn to swim
Hmm. A very angry song.
"Mom, please flush it all away."
Out of context, I see what you're saying. Not dissimilar from your tagline.
The Parker analogy is effective. What you are asking for then is the patience of the Gentle Readers to "hear the melody" in a slightly different way. Your melodies are ... uh ... melodious. Keep adding the grace notes, bends, slides, inversions, suggestions of dissonance fading back into the scale, keeping listeners a little off balance, hoping that this will motivate them to meet you halfway with a little extra discernment.
Pantera kicks ass.
Just a few random thoughts.
Carry on.
25 - Ruvy in Jerusalem
Very nice piece...
Just beware of the old saw about the magician not explaining his tricks... Some of us, like the gentl;e readers above, actually pay attention to you.