I always thought it would be Murray or I to get the first blogger fatwa but I was wrong. The AnarchAngel is the unfortunate recipient of what looks to be a very serious threat. The FBI is involved and he is not cowed but rather angry. We bloggers believe we have a right to free speech...alas Islamists don't believe anyone has a right to free speech besides. After the events of 7/7 and how close some of my mates were to it all...this fatwa is indeed chilling.…
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— go to most recent comments26 - Shark
When I was writing a satire column for an alternative weekly newspaper, I received three death threats in a 12 month period.
Mine were all from a right-wing "Christian" guy.
...speaking of which...
I love how DaveNalle characterizes Jerry Falwell as an Islamic Fundamentalist with a sense of humor.
Good one.
======
re. insane clown posse -- the most and nastiest mail I ever got (aside from the death threats) was for a piece I did on wiccans.
Whoa. Don't piss off the witches!
27 - Andrew Ian Dodge
Yeah some witches can be a bit animated at times. I know quite a few of them and most are fairly mild-mannered folks. Pissing off a satanist is not very hard though.
As far as the fatwa. I am guessing many people here would have been incensed if someone threatened the life of Mapplethorpe when he was alive over some of his work. (I believe 'Piss Christ' was one of his.) Why is this any different?
28 - Shark
Just fer the record:
1) Mapplethorpe was threatened many times.
2) "Piss Christ" was indeed his -- and it was *attacked by a 'Christian art critic' wielding a hammer.
* Australia - Victoria Museum, where the weasel of a Museum Director closed the show due to violent intimidation by one little facist with a hand tool.
Name of SPINELESS WEASEL:
Timothy Potts.
29 - Nancy
When are religious fundamentalist nuts of all stripes going to wake up to the fact that the vast majority of the world really doesn't give a rat's ass what they think, or how they *demand* their religious delusions be treated? I would suggest a counter-fatwah (or phatwah): all fundamentalistis of any religion are from now on subject to being snatched, held incommunicado, & subjected to deprogramming until such time as they come to their senses. If they fail to do so after a reasonable period of time, they are to be lobotomized to leave them functional but no longer dangerous, and released back into the wild.
They behave like crazed beasts; they deserve to be treated as such.
And muslims wonder why so many non-muslims hold them, their culture, & their religion in contempt?
BTW - has it also occurred to muslims that by issuing fatwahs, etc. they are directly & grossly offending allah & making him & themselves out to be liars? Allah says he's the all-powerful & all-compassionate. By aiming to kill those they deem to be offenders of allah, muslims are directly stating that allah therefore is NOT all-compassionate & because they feel they must obviously deal with offenders themselves, they also bear witness that they in fact don't believe at all that allah is all powerful. Because if allah were truly all powerful - and they did believe it - allah certainly wouldn't need them to settle his hash w/anyone who offended him. So, these people actually merely demonstrate that they are in fact blasphemers & apostates themselves.
30 - PseudoErsatz
Probably been asked before, but if the Collition Forces were to attach Korans to their vehicles or replace their body armor with Korans, would the mass-murdering bombers stop their activity to prevent the possible destruction of even one of their 'holy' books?
31 - Nancy
Now that's an interesting idea, but I wouldn't want to be the one to test it, myself.
32 - imelda
Those guys are not just an argument for gun control, they are an argument for birth control. What exactly is the "philosophy" behind shooting a book? any book?
33 - Andrew Ian Dodge
What is the philosophy behind burning the flag (any)? I believe you should be able to do either and not be the subject of threats against your person.
34 - Temple Stark
Well there was James Redfield's "The Celestine Prophecy." :-)
But if we're talking about holy books - as I think we are - if you want your holy book to be treated a such, it goes both ways.
35 - Eric Berlin
Phatwa... that's brilliant, Shark.
36 - Dave Nalle
>>Those guys are not just an argument for gun control, they are an argument for birth control. What exactly is the "philosophy" behind shooting a book? any book?<<
Spoken like someone who's never fired a gun and is probably afraid of guns on principle.
Speaking from experience - it's fun to shoot almost anything. There's a joy and exhiliration to it. I've never shot a book, but watching the video, it sure looked like fun. Plus it made a point.
Dave
37 - Natalie Davis
I would never touch a gun and yes, I fear and hate them on principle. And the very idea of shooting anything for fun just baffles and disgusts me. But I don't support gun grabbing -- if someone else wants one, it's her right, and I don't have the right to tell any adult that she can't have it. Just keep the firearms away from me and my home, where no weapons are allowed.
I don't anyone thinks that this fatwa is good news. I've had quite a few death threats myself (one over an article years ago in which I opined that Pat Boone has no place in the Rock Hall of Fame) and they can be terrifying. People should be able to express themselves however they wish without having to fear for their lives. Many people invest meaning in the Koran, as many of you do in the US flag. In the end, though, we're still talking about a book and a piece of colored cloth. After reading many of Mr. Byrne's writings, I am sure that he is someone best avoided. But a fatwa? How stupid is that? I just pray no one carries it to fruition.
38 - Dave Nalle
>>I would never touch a gun and yes, I fear and hate them on principle. <<
I don't necessarily mean to apply this to you, but this is exactly the kind of attitude which makes the left so hard to deal with. It's an irrational response to the perception of evil in an innanimate object. How can anyone expect to deal rationally with people who hold these kinds of beliefs?
>>And the very idea of shooting anything for fun just baffles and disgusts me.<<
Is it fun to skip stones? Is it fun to shoot hoops? The same thing, just a different medium.
>> But I don't support gun grabbing -- if someone else wants one, it's her right, and I don't have the right to tell any adult that she can't have it. Just keep the firearms away from me and my home, where no weapons are allowed.<<
A triumph of principle over emotion, which you certainly deserve praise for.
>> (one over an article years ago in which I opined that Pat Boone has no place in the Rock Hall of Fame) <<
Now that's just crazy. Boone wasn't a rock musician in any sense of the word. But then they let almost anyone into the R&R Hall of Fame.
Dave
39 - Natalie Davis
Oh, I am well aware the people kill people and guns, being inanimate objects, don't. I'm not that nuts. I don't begrudge people having them for protection or sport even though I couldn't. Your shooting hoops analogy resonates, though not skipping stones; I nearly lost an eye when someone accidentally hit me with one as a kid. I have the same phobia about frisbees. My fear is more about accidents than anything else. Also, seeing a gun reminds me of those I know who have been killed and wounded by people wielding them.
What's crazy about the Pat Boone thing is that someone communicated the desire to have me -- and Oprah as well, which I don't get -- disembowled for it. That's insane.
40 - Dave Nalle
Ok, if you're afraid of frisbees it's a whole different kind of problem. Stay away from disc golf courses - those hard little frisbees can really sting.
As for Pat Boone, even putting aside his complete lack of rock and roll soul, some might object to the fact that he made his entire career on doing inferior covers of the output of underpaid or often completely unpaid black artists who genuinely belong in the hall of fame.
Neil Diamond, on the other hand, deserves a spot more than many of those who have been inducted and isn't in there - that's the real crime.
Dave
41 - Marty Dodge
Cred is about to go out the door....but I like Pat Boones Metal Covers album. It is damn good fun!
42 - Temple Stark
There she goes ... right out the door :-)
I'n the one who first made the "argument for gun control' point (comment 7) and it stands. These guys look like pampered Yahoos (which by no means doesn't mean they don't have smarts)
What "point" does shooting up a Holy Book prove? He / they did this of course before he was threatened.
The Koran holds an even more scared place in Islam than the Bible does in Christinaity. They knew that.
See second part of Comment 7 for the rest of my thoughts.
43 - Natalie Davis
Absolutely -- Neil Diamond, especially doing his old stuff, rocks. He was influential too and I agree he deserves a spot in the HOF. Boone's metal covers showed his sense of humor, which I appreciated. And there is a disc golf course near here; I avoid that section of the park like the proverbial plague.
44 - Dave Nalle
>>What "point" does shooting up a Holy Book prove?<<
If nothing else it proves that in America we have the freedom to shoot up a holy book and when we get threatened the government backs our rights rather than dragging us off and putting us in a show trial and having us shot. That ought to send some sort of message.
Dave
45 - KC
"There it is again. The consequences of destroying a book, even a holy book, should NOT be to have your family killed or even threatened, and the fact that you seem to accept that those are the consequences is inherently part of the problem."
Yes, there are consequences to your actions. That shouldn't surprise anyone. If you protest be prepared to be arrested, if you stand up to speak be prepared to argue your point. This isn't a case of either protest or argument through, it was a shameless bid for attention. An act requiring no more thought than chest beating. I feel for his family who are caught up in his gambit, but if he wasn't capable of backing his act up, why should he ask for sympathy now? He did it, and he should take responsibility for it without dragging anyone else into the problem he created for himself.
46 - confused
guns don't kill people, or books
bullets kill them
47 - imelda
oh god, of course one should be FREE to destroy whatever book they wish, especially ALL of the manuals of organized religions because they ARE the cause of all evil (and while you are at it, shoot some Danielle Steele ones too - they are just stupid).
Will that change anything though? The lunatics will just print more.
48 - Dave Nalle
>>He did it, and he should take responsibility for it without dragging anyone else into the problem he created for himself. <<
The point is that he shouldn't be facing a 'problem' because of these actions. If there is danger for him and his family it's not his fault, but the fault of those who would answer a harmless action with violence. And that's the whole point of this incedent. The terrorists don't understand or value the freedom that lets someone in America make a statement like this, however ill-considered it may be.
DAve
49 - Shark
Natalie the Pacifist: "...I would never touch a gun and yes, I fear and hate them on principle."
DaveNulle: "...this is exactly the kind of attitude which makes the left so hard to deal with. It's an irrational response to the perception of evil in an innanimate object..."
IT'S A GUN, FER CHRISSAKES!
And she's an avowed PACIFIST.
Good gawd, Nulle, are you a fucking robot?
GUN... HISTORY... NEWS... WAR... MURDER... SUICIDE...
Gunpowder. Bang. Pow. Shoot. Kill. Bullet. Blood. Harm. Blow Away. Ruin. Smash. Penetrate. Explode.
What part of Natalie's "irrational response" do you not understand?
[Shark finishes his 'drive-by' free association...]
NOTE: Dave has hijacked this post and turned it into yet another propaganda piece for his beloved, fucking marginalized, oh-so-rare, hard-to find, hard-to-get, but protected under the 2nd Amendment weapons.
~zzzzzzzzzzzz
50 - Shark
incedent should be "incident" Dave
51 - Shark
[Shark pictures Dave telling a Pro-Choice (advocate after the Bush Supreme Court overturns Roe-v-Wade) that to fear a bloody coat-hanger is "an irrational response to the perception of evil in an innanimate object..."]
What a maroon.
52 - Shark
And before somebody reminds me that I've hijacked this post to continue to pursue Nulle's right-wing bullshit like a hound-dog on crack -- I have an excuse:
John Bambineck is asleep at the moment.
53 - Andrew Ian Dodge
Heh, Shark.
54 - Nancy
ROTFLOL, Shark!
Having once hauled a gun as part of the job (& thank god, no more, & never again!), I gotta say I love shooting skeet & trap shooting. It IS fun - and you're not hurting or killing anything, but it's a 'way fun challenge. However, I can see & sympathize w/those that don't want anything to do w/them on any terms. Now, my idea of the ideal skeet/trap shooting would be if they could release Barbara Cartland & Bette Neals novels for shooting. THAT would be not only fun but a service to Society.
55 - Andrew Ian Dodge
I know people who use AOL and other spam CDs for skeet shooting. You could also use former boy band members solo efforts (with a few exceptions) for target practice as well.
56 - Natalie Davis
Reminds me of the days where folks would blow up disco records.
57 - Dave Nalle
Shark, when the hell have I ever hijacked a thread before to talk about guns? Plus, this is a post about people blowing a Koran up with GUNS, ferchrissakes - how is talking about guns on a thread about guns hijacking it?
And BTW, I'm pro-choice or as I prefer to say it, pro-death, so I'm not going to be the one harassing people outside of a clinic while you're trying to run down protestors with your car.
As for Natalie's vegetarian pacifism, that's her choice. But IMO it's a denial of personal responsibility which shifts the burden of protecting her onto the rest of society. You can only afford to be a pacifist in our society because someone else is willing to stand up for the rights of gun owners and still others are willing to do the work of law enforcement and national defense. They earn her that luxury.
Dave
58 - KC
"If there is danger for him and his family it's not his fault, but the fault of those who would answer a harmless action with violence."
Yep, it's a free country. You can douse yourself with honey and jump on a fire ant mound if you want just don't come crying to the rest of us when you get stung. Why? Because you did it. Whose fault is it you now need help?
Freedom do you or say what you want doesn't mean freedom from responsibility for your own acts.
He made a clear "come and get me" statement. He's surprised they responded---why? He wanted their attention, he knew who they were, now he's got them chasing him. So what?
I'll reserve my sympathy for those who are fighting the real battle against terror, the soliders who are putting their lives on the line for the rest of us. Not someone who wanted his 15 seconds by doing something pointless. Again my hopes are with his hapless family he dragged into this.
59 - Temple Stark
No. The death threat response IS too strong and is not the same as some of these scenarios. He deserves scorn but not death threats.
It's an order of magnitude. ... No one should celebrate death threats.
60 - Nancy
I agree, Dave; I don't see where you hijacked anything here. Blog threads do tend to wander somewhat, some more than others. Sail on, Dave.
61 - Shark
"...Dave; I don't see where you hijacked anything here..."
Sorry to all.
Ya see, Dave and I have a symbiotic relationship; he's an asshole and I'm a prick.
When we get together, maaaan, it just feels good.
62 - Nancy
LOL, Shark! "The superior person is he who recognizes his mistakes & can apologize...."
63 - Lisa McKay
Just a correction to comments 27 and 28: Piss Christ was by Andres Serrano, not Mapplethorpe.
As you were...
64 - Andrew Ian Dodge
Lisa thanks for the heads-up.
65 - Natalie Davis
I never said I was vegetarian, Mr. Nalle. What luxury? Nobody protected me when I was beaten and raped. That isn't a complaint, merely a statement of fact: I don't expect anyone to protect me. My feeling is, shit happens. But I am sick sick sick of being told that my deepest beliefs make me irresponsible in some way. What, I should be a hypocrite and liar to pass muster with you?
66 - Nancy
I'm the vegetarian, Dave. What's wrong w/vegetarianism? Sure beats clogged arteries & cheaper, too.
67 - Dave Nalle
>>What, I should be a hypocrite and liar to pass muster with you?<<
Not at all. As I said in my previous comment, the nature of society is to provide protection for all even if they choose not to participate in the protecting process. You can choose not to have a gun, you can choose not to serve in the military, and others in society will take up those responsibilities and you will still share the benefits. That's what makes a society of cooperating individuals so great.
Dave
68 - MCH
"You can only afford to be a pacifist in our society because someone else is willing to standup for the rights of gun owners, and still others are willing to do the work of law enforcement and national defense."
- Dave Nalle
Nalle, your attack on Natalie Davis' pacifism is extremely disingenuous, considering the fact that you have no more time "doing the work of national defense" than she does.
At least Ms. Davis isn't a hypocrite, like yourself - evading service and letting someone else fight the wars you espouse, while remaining safely entrenched in front of your keyboard typing empty war rhetoric.
And please, spare the phoney "there were no wars when I was of age to serve" excuse for your fellow Chickenhawk buddies, OK? You were in your early 30s at the time of Desert Storm.
69 - Dave Nalle
MCH, I refrained from throwing in a gratuitous criticism of you in the process of commenting here, but I see you didn't have the good sense to stay out of this topic which is closely related to your hypocritical obsession.
There's no draft, no requirement of service, and no reason for anyone to join the military if they do not feel that it's a good use of their time and skills. It's perfectly reasonable for people who have families or other obligations to not volunteer for the military. They serve the country by being part of the economy, voting and doing what they do as productive members of society.
As to Desert Storm, I could indeed have volunteered, although there was no desperate need, no call for volunteers, and no way I would have been deployed in a fighting capacity. I would have entered service about 3 months after it was over as well. It would have been a waste of my time and the Military's resources. What sense does that make?
Oh wait, it doesn't have to make any sense, because you're a bundle of irrational hatreds and so biased by your leftist indoctrination that reason is completely beyond you.
Dave
70 - Shark
Lisa, thanks for the correction on Serrano. Jeezus, I knew that, but tend to confuse 'controversial' artists.
71 - KC
"It's an order of magnitude. ... No one should celebrate death threats."
I certainly don't celebrate death threats, but I don't condone stupid behavior either. Do we need those dumb warnings we've put on everything for the internet too?
Warning: Putting up a display celebrating the destruction of a religious object may result in angry emails. If we're currently at war with some members of that religion, then you may receive death threats.
I don't think we need that. I don't he needed that. Freedom to do and say what you want doesn't mean you won't have to face the consquences of doing and saying what you want.
We know that there are terrorists who want to kill us. That can't have escaped anyone's notice after 9-11. There are many ways constructive ways to discuss that, to argue against their methods and look for real ways to fight against it. This wasn't one of them.
Again, this was a bid for attention, a mockery of freedom of speech when people are already dying to protect it.
Do I celebrate this danger to his safety? No, I don't. But I refuse to feel sorry for him, or claim for a moment what he did was "brave." I seen too much real bravery and I know the difference between it and foolhardy swaggering.
72 - Natalie Davis
I don't see this society as being "cooperating" of me. Never have. And I don't count myself as a member of it. People have to agree with the program; we are all plopped wherever we are and expected to just go along with it. That is consummately unfair.
I don't think what Mr. Byrne did was brave by any means, but I feel sorry for him -- for many reasons, including the alleged threat.
73 - E L Frederick
Muslims get rather pissed off when you disrepect the Koran. While "The AnarchAngel" would of been told he was "a sad, sick, little man" and that "he was going to go to hell for that" if he had done the same to a few Holy Bibles, I doubt that "Darth Benedict XVI" would of pronounced a Fatwah against him.
Just because he may be may be offensive doesn't mean that the radical Muslims who want to kill him aren't *dead* wrong.
74 - Andrew Ian Dodge
At the risk of being a pedant (what me?) in fact the only true Koran is in Arabic so he was merely shooting at a translation of the holy book. Much like the difference between an original painting and those poster copies people get & frame.
75 - andy marsh
Are you telling me that van Gogh on my wall is fake?